November 16, 2023 • 39 mins
Imagine waking up every morning with a sense of purpose and excitement for your job. Now, snap back to reality, where the majority of us spend our days disengaged and unsure about our career paths. The struggle is real, and we get it! In this episode, Pete Newsome and Rachel Serwetz from Woken dive deep into the heart of why most people struggle with navigating their career paths. Rachel shares insights into why many people struggle with finding the right career path and emphasizes the importance of intentional efforts in career exploration, especially during the formative college years. The discussion covers the challenges individuals face in understanding their best-fit career paths, the limitations of traditional resources, and the significance of having the right support and guidance.
Career Path Exploration Guide:
- Commit to the Journey: Acknowledge and embrace the uncertainty of career exploration.
- Reflect on Your Affinities: Identify your natural skills and what you enjoy.
- Explore Content and Industry: Reflect on topics of interest and explore aligned industries.
- Define Your Ideal Environment: Consider the work environment and experience you want.
- Separate Roles and Industries: Understand the distinction and explore various roles.
- Conduct Efficient Research: Use online resources for quick, efficient research.
- Network for Real Insights: Set up calls with professionals for valuable insights.
- Embrace Iterative Learning: Learn, reflect, and pivot based on discoveries.
- Seek External Support: Consider a coach or mentor for personalized guidance.
- Prioritize Engagement and Fulfillment: Focus on roles aligning with values for fulfillment.
- Stay Realistic: Understand challenges and strive for realistic alignment.
- Take Action and Be Proactive: Act on insights gained and be proactive in finding fulfillment.
- Leverage Clarity for Job Search: Streamline job search based on gained clarity.
- Consider External Support's Practical Benefits: Recognize the benefits of support in efficient decision-making.
- Maintain an Open Mind: Overcome limiting beliefs and be receptive to new insights.
Additional Resources:
- 6 Strategies to Overcome a Career Plateau
- 8 High-Income Skills to Learn to Help You Grow Your Career
- Exploring Non-Traditional Careers: Finding Fulfillment Outside the Norm
🧠WANT TO LEARN MORE? 🧠WANT TO LEARN MORE? Be sure to subscribe and check out zengig.com.
👋 FOLLOW PETE NEWSOME
ONLINE: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/petenewsome/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/petenewsome?lang=en
Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@PeteNewsome
Blog Articles: https://www.4cornerresources.com/blog/
👋 FOLLOW RACHEL SERWETZ ONLINE:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rachelserwetz/
Blog Articles: https://www.iamwoken.com/resources
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Finding Careers in podcast.
I'm Pete Newsom and I'm joinedtoday by Rachel Sirwitz from
Woken.
Rachel, how are you today?
I am great.
How are you?
I am good.
Career coach, ceo and founderof Woken.
You're pretty busy, rachel.
Just a little bit Well.
Thank you for joining me today.
Before we go too far, I want toask you to introduce your
(00:29):
company and tell me what theWoken name means.
I already know the story, butI'd love for you to share it
again.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Yeah, we are a career coaching company.
We help all different kinds ofprofessionals with all different
kinds of career goals orchallenges.
Whether you're clarifying yourpath, you're debating,
upskilling, you're strengtheningyour branding, job searching,
networking, interviewing, youname it, we help people with all
career goals and co-pilot youthrough those journeys.
(00:58):
And we do have a softwarecomponent plus.
We do coaching sessions.
In terms of where we came upwith our name, I used to always
say that we're waking upprofessionals to take control
over their career.
I used to see that people wouldeither go about it all by
themselves or just assume thatschool or whatever resources
(01:20):
they were given was sufficientand so, like anything else you
would take on in your life, it'ssort of that extracurricular in
a way, where you want to go outof your way to get the right
support and guidance andresources and there's such big,
important decisions, so justmaking sure that you have
support through that.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
Wonderful, love it.
Well, you and I, when we firstconnected a couple of weeks ago,
we got down the road would.
You were sharing your thoughtson career path exploration, so I
wanted to spend time on thattoday because I know that's a
specialty of yours and I thinkto your point about the
importance of a career search.
This is at the heart of it, andlet me just ask you, before we
(02:01):
go too far down there most, whydo you think most people are bad
at this?
I mean, it's such a big part ofour lives but it's a constant
struggle.
I know that from my career instaffing.
You, of course, have built yourbusiness around helping people
figure that out.
Why is it so tough?
Speaker 2 (02:18):
There's a lot of reasons.
I think that our example of aperson in this world is the
assumption that, like you, mayalways go your life without
knowing what your best fitcareer path is, and so we sort
of assume that's normal.
We don't really have a scalable, effective, affordable way to
clarify your past right.
(02:39):
Sometimes we try, we'll read abook and then we'll say that
didn't help me, or we'll take anassessment and say I'm left
with lackluster results.
Or maybe there's a course thatwe follow, but then we don't
actually take it into action.
So there's a lot of resourceswe may try.
Coaches oftentimes are tooexpensive, so there's things out
there, but there's usually areason why it falls short, and
(03:01):
so it's really not to anyone'sfault.
It's just sometimes the systemsand the resources and the
guidance we have either aren'teffective enough or holding you
accountable or affordable.
There's reasons for it.
But yeah, that's kind of whywe're here trying to make it so
that any professional can followthat journey and feel clear and
(03:22):
feel certain and feel confidentand feel informed in terms of
where are they going in theircareer, why are they pursuing
that, versus like we go into jobsearch and we're just sort of
we don't know what we'researching for, we don't know why
we're searching for it or wehave way too many options and
we're just okay with that andthat's normal.
But I try to help people to seeyou can explore before you job
(03:44):
search and look how muchdifferent that's going to make
your journey right.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
Well, we push kids and I say kids because I sound
like the old guy with this, butwhen you're 18, 19, 20, you are
a kid in many respects.
You're sort of there to me andI have four children and my
oldest is 23,.
My youngest is 15.
So I live this every day withthem, where I'll say the system
and that's sort of a crude wayto phrase it, but kind of
(04:11):
doesn't isn't really set up tohelp young people make these
very important decisions.
And I don't necessarily havethe answer to fixing that, but I
do know that it's somethingthat is such a challenge where
we have, you know, kids go downthis path and by default they
stay on it, without stoppingwhen they're 25, 30, 35,
(04:32):
necessarily to say, hey, is thisthe right path for me?
Right, just because it's theone you started on, isn't the
one you should remain on?
And I'm sure you you have somethoughts on that.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
Yeah, you know it's funny, because either you're too
scared to get off and you knowpivot, because it's a really big
deal, or it gets too late, andthen you're like I can't take
this anymore.
So people do pivot, you know,but you just don't want to wait
so long.
And so, to your point incollege, like those are those
early days that are so important.
(05:03):
But but you're right, becauseit's hard that we sort of force
somebody who's really a youngprofessional to make a decision
about their major when theydon't actually have the answer
yet as to what is it I want tostudy.
I always say, you know, I wentin undecided and I wish that
every single student could justbe undecided, because they are
(05:23):
meaning we hear your major.
Right, it should line up withthe timing of when you know what
it is you want to pursue.
Often we're just studyingsomething and then we're
figuring it out later.
And so in an ideal world, youknow we are exploring, we're
doing research, we're doingnetworking, we're doing
reflection and we're learning asearly and often as possible.
Right, it doesn't mean you haveto decide perfectly from the
(05:46):
beginning, but you just want tosay, like I'm putting in this
intentional effort to beinformed about what I'm like and
what my career options are,that at least you can be in the
right ballpark.
Right, we see people who aremaking career decisions for all
the wrong reasons and thenyou're sort of discounting, like
, well, what am I good at andwhat makes sense for me?
And then it comes back to sortof bite you later.
(06:09):
So you have to go into each ofthose decisions with the time it
deserves to do that explorationand it will pay off.
And then you want your careerpath to build organically right
Versus, like I picked somethingfor the wrong reasons and now
later I need to like totally 180, you know.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
Yeah, well, and what you think is important at 17, 18
, 19, and this is cliche, butit's cliche because it's so true
, we know this what you think,then, is going to be vastly
different than your perspectiveat 25, 30,.
As your life goes on, yoursituation changes and your
perspective changes along withit.
(06:49):
So, when it comes to careerpath exploration, who is it for?
I mean, if you had to, if youmap out the perfect scenario,
what?
How would the timing look onthat?
Speaker 2 (07:01):
And to your point.
Yes, things do change.
But that's kind of part of theproblem is, like when you're
young, a lot of you know folksare making decisions just on,
like what is a secure careerpath, but it's not secure if,
like, you're not good at thatthing or you're going to hate
doing that thing.
So we have to think ofholistically.
We are human and so you have tothink of all the important
factors.
(07:22):
It is hard when you're young tolike either influence and
educate and motivate someone tohave that perspective when they
haven't worked yet.
So to answer your question, whois it for?
It's really at every singlestage you know, the earlier the
better when you start, but trulyany moment it's kind of the who
and the when is is similarbecause anytime you're making a
(07:43):
change or transition would be atime to go through the journey
of exploration.
Once you're later in your career, if you've already done
exploration, you might need ashorter journey.
So, for example, if you alreadyknow you're on generally the
right path but you're ready forthe next thing, you might just
need a few days or a few weeksto clarify and refine what's
next for you, but early days youmight need more time to do that
(08:06):
, anytime you're about to enterlike a job search, and apply to
something, even if it's apromotion or internal mobility
within your company, whereveryou're working, whenever you're
ready for the next step and achange, whether you're starting,
whether you're, you know, earlycareer, whether you're mid or
later.
The whole point is to have aperiod of research, learning,
(08:28):
networking, reflection.
Give yourself however much timeyou need to think and just say
what's next for me, what's rightfor me, what's best for me, and
explore before you apply toanything.
Now, sometimes we can't affordthat time, and if that's the
case, then that's fine.
Sometimes a job is meant for Ijust need to support myself
(08:48):
right now, and in thosesituations you can work with
what you have.
But to the extent that you canproactively do this, that would
be ideal.
Speaker 1 (08:58):
And easier said than done.
We know that.
But so important and I justwrote something the other day
because the age of my kids and Iam constantly around their
friends and talking to those,the parents of those kids it's a
challenge that nearly everyonehas.
I don't want to put apercentage on it, but one out of
(09:19):
a pretty big number, I wouldsay knows what they want to do
when they're getting out of highschool and being told go now,
go pick a go to college hugedecision, go pick a major,
something that you're going to,in theory, specialize in and
have to earn an income from forthe rest of your year, for the
rest of your life.
Which is kind of insane, rightwhen you think about it.
(09:42):
Because, to the point you madeearlier, you haven't worked out
in the real world yet, youhaven't had much experience and
exposure.
So you're making these lifechoices with, and you're not
really armed with, a whole lotof experience to do it on.
So we can't fix that wholesystem, at least not today at
this call, but I think we canacknowledge it and the
(10:03):
importance of having the time toexplore.
So, if you wouldn't mind, I'dlike to talk about the advice
and the exploration path thatsomeone who's younger would go
through versus someone who'scoming to that first realization
.
And I almost everyone I know hashad this right.
Some are lucky and they get itright out of the gate, but where
(10:24):
you get deep a little bit intoyour career and you go, okay,
this isn't working.
I need to pivot.
I need to do something vastlydifferent.
So let's start with youngpeople.
Where should they begin in theexploration process?
Speaker 2 (10:38):
Well, so the process I guide people through is
actually largely very similar.
Now, how much information anddata you have about yourself is
going to grow.
So when you have your first fewjobs, there's going to be more
for you to reflect on in a waythat's clear to you what did I
like and what did I not like?
Right, when you're younger, youhave less of those experiences,
(10:58):
but you can always learn fromother people about what's out
there.
So it's a combination oflearning about yourself and
learning from others.
You know in terms of whatcareers exist and what do they
really look and feel like.
That's what it is right, butthe stage that you're in it's
going to change how muchinformation you have about
yourself.
You can always go learn aboutwhat's out there.
(11:19):
So would it be helpful I couldlike walk you through just sort
of the step-by-step problem.
Speaker 1 (11:23):
Yeah, just absolutely .
That would be great.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
Cool.
So the first step that I liketo do well, first is a little
bit of a commitment moment, likedo I even want to go on this
journey and am I ready?
Because it does take a littlebit of time.
So you have to just be readyfor that and enter into the
phase of knowing you don't knowand just being comfortable and
swimming in that uncertainty.
I think that's another reasonpeople avoid this, because it's
(11:49):
uncomfortable to not know, butjust go into it and say I'm
going to create a structuredprocess to make it comfortable
and make it easy to learn andexplore and work through these
questions.
That's step number one.
Then, once you're ready, Iactually have an assessment, but
you can do this manually andyou could just reflect.
And so there's really threethings I like to reflect on.
So the first is what I call thefunction, which is essentially
(12:13):
your affinities, it's the skills, it's sort of your habits, it's
what you're natural at, it'swhat you're good at, it's those
verbs and action phrases.
It's really the day-to-dayexperience.
The second piece is what I callcontent, which is essentially
the top of areas or the problemareas that you feel are
important or interesting orinnovative or intriguing to you.
(12:34):
The third is the environment.
What should it look and feellike?
The people, the piece, all thebells and whistles of the
reality of it, and so sectionnumber one, that functional
element, is going to translateinto potential roles.
The second piece is going totranslate into potential
industries.
A lot of assessment, a lot ofcoaches, a lot of things out
(12:55):
there will munch roll andindustry, but they're totally
separate.
You could go do so many rolesin so many industries, so you
got to separate those two.
It's also a great way toincorporate some of your
interests.
You may not want to be a chef,but you could go find companies
that focus on food in so manyways.
That's just one of manyexamples.
So once you have the optionsfor roles and industries the
(13:18):
other thing, assessments willspit out one answer.
You should come up with a fewroles and a few industries that
feel relevant or viable based onyour reflections.
Then we do want to do a tinybit of research.
Obviously, we have Google,blogs, youtube, tiktok, chat,
gbt.
These are good informationalresources, but they're online
resources.
You're only going to learn somuch, so be efficient.
(13:40):
I think another pitfall is thatpeople research for weeks or
months or years on end.
We need to move to the nextphase, which is what I call
networking.
So imagine you're setting up 15, 20, 30-minute informational
calls with people who are in theroles in the industries that
you actually are considering.
You're learning.
(14:01):
Now you have to do this.
Well, a lot of people set upthese calls and then they're
like didn't get out of it whatthey wanted to.
So really be creative with whatyou ask and how you ask it.
And then what I like to do isgo through these pivot loops.
So you're learning, you'rereflecting, you're synthesizing
and you're pivoting to say whatdid I like, what did I not like
and what should I go do next.
And you are very iterative andover the course of a few weeks
(14:24):
and a lot of learning, you'llprobably uncover roles you never
heard of.
And you really are being honestwith these people to say here's
what I know about myself,here's what I think this role is
all about.
Can you tell me what is in yourexposure, in your purview?
And you keep going throughthose and that's really what
gets you to the point ofconfidently knowing what role,
what industry and whatenvironment makes the most sense
(14:45):
.
A lot of people go intoupskilling too soon Like let me
go do an internship, let me godo this course, let me try out
the skill.
To me, a networking call if youdo it right is the most dynamic
and comprehensive way to behonest with a person so that
they can be honest with you andtogether you can figure out what
makes sense.
Upskilling sometimes is a goodway of testing things out, but
(15:08):
sometimes really, it may notmirror what is this job like.
It may not tell you what wouldit be like if I was good at this
in a year from now.
You want that high-levelpicture of what does a week look
like on this job.
So that's the quick version ofwhat the process is.
Speaker 1 (15:26):
That's a lot.
That is a lot.
It's very involved, it's verydeep and it's multifaceted,
which I think is so interestingto hear, because most of us
don't get to take that timeright.
We either weren't aware that iteven exists Service is like the
one you provide, so this isgreat that you have an
(15:46):
opportunity to share it or wejust don't think that way.
The world doesn't really tellus to stop and really explore.
It almost rushes us intogetting a job, and I can't tell
you how many times I've heardthat Pick something so you can
get a job.
And to me that's verydemoralizing to hear because
(16:07):
your job is so much of your lifeand how you spend it.
So everything that you justdescribed, while it's a lot of
effort and a commitment, thereward for making that
commitment is immense and Ithink it is such an important
thing to do.
And, quite frankly, the wordexplore there's no better word
for it.
That's exactly what you justdescribed deep exploration.
Speaker 2 (16:31):
The amount of time and effort to put in versus what
you get out.
The ratio is just not evennormal.
That's what I try to encouragepeople.
On average, if you put in twoto three hours a week, it
usually takes about two to threemonths, but I've seen someone
do this as if it was theirfull-time job and it lasted them
about a month.
So it's not crazy.
(16:51):
Like sure, it's commitment, it'sdiscipline, there's some time
and effort, but it also could bepretty practical, pretty
straightforward and prettyefficient.
If you have the right supportthrough it, it doesn't have to
take forever.
And so imagine you can actuallyfeel clear and confident.
The other end of it people comein lost and confused and stuck
and stressed.
On the other end, you'reactually relieved, you feel
(17:13):
certain, you feel free, becauseyou can actually focus on.
Let me now go after what it isI want, versus questioning where
I belong and so what you'vebeen from it.
So, yes, it's effort, but itdoesn't have to be this hard
thing that lasts forever andgets support to make it as easy
as possible and it'll pay offright.
Speaker 1 (17:35):
Well, what I think of putting forth that kind of
effort, that's what's needed tobe successful, right?
I mean, unless it's bycoincidence, I don't know people
who just show up from day oneand they're successful at doing
anything.
So if you want to run amarathon, you've got to train
for it.
If you want to be a physician,you have to go to medical school
(17:57):
.
I mean, there are certainthings that are necessary.
So it just makes sense to methat if you want to have
happiness and fulfill it andsuccess in your career, well,
you should kind of create a goodbaseline and foundation for
those things.
So I think it's the right kindof effort, great effort.
How do you know when you'redone, I mean you've put?
(18:18):
How do you know, is there alight bulb moment that happens?
Speaker 2 (18:21):
Yeah, so it may feel like a light bulb, but I would
say, yeah, sometimes there is anaha moment, but usually, with
incrementally increasinginformation, it increases your
self-awareness, your insightsand your clarity on what's right
or not right for you, and soinformation really drives it
(18:43):
right.
This is grounded in somethingvery real.
We're not just like pulling theanswers from thin air.
Information is going to driveyour ability to have answers and
to know what's right for you ornot, and to lean in to talk to
the right people and not thewrong people.
So it's very much action-basedand practical.
But yeah, you will get to thepoint.
What I always say is, if youstill have options, it means you
(19:05):
need to do more learning ormere reflection, or both People.
Yeah, they don't.
It's sort of a weird thing toknow that there will be this
endpoint.
But, yes, if you're not feelingcertain yet, ask yourself what
are the open questions orhesitations?
Do I need to learn more?
Or just think about what I'velearned?
Usually, if you have somethingon your mind still, we can deal
(19:28):
with that in one way or another.
Does that mean that?
First of all, by the way, nojob is perfect.
You may say, knowing thechallenges of this job, I still
think it's right for me.
So it's not that anything hasto be perfect, it's just you
want to feel informed and, basedon that full sense of
information, you'll feel certainand ready to go pursue it.
Or, if there's still hiccups orhesitations, you'll go back to
(19:50):
learning and not go back to thedrawing board.
But you'll see.
What does this mean?
Does that mean I should moveinto something else, whatever it
may mean for your next step?
So, yes, there is a point ofthat surgery that you will feel
ready enough and informed enoughto go pursue that path.
Speaker 1 (20:06):
I would imagine someone has to go into this with
a really open mind.
Is that a challenge for youwhen you start working with
someone for the first time?
Speaker 2 (20:13):
Yeah, I would say people's like limiting beliefs
do come into play, but that'swhy you walk with a coach to
make sure that your limitingbeliefs are not making your
decisions right.
So it's okay and it's normaland it's human, but we have to
overcome that.
So, for example, if someone'slike I don't know if I'm capable
of learning that thing orupskilling or pivoting into that
(20:34):
thing or doing that skill orwhatever it may be, how can we
learn more?
How can we get a realisticpicture?
Can we shadow somebody?
How can we better understand?
What did it take for them toreally get there?
What was the training like?
What is the complexity?
Can you ask really goodquestions to get a real life
picture and then relate thatback to yourself?
So when you have, like athird-party person to help you
(20:55):
process your thoughts, yourfeelings, it's really going to
help you see yourselfobjectively, make sure you have
the right information and makesure you're making decisions
based on information and not alimiting belief.
There's any number of mindsetsthat do show up, but that's,
yeah, again, why you havesomebody there to support you
through it and you know ifsomething is too hard for you.
(21:17):
Like that's just a signal thatit's not the right job, which is
okay, right, there's.
Any job is either hard tosomeone and easy to someone else
, like what is fitting for yourstrengths and your affinities.
So any sort of feeling that youhave, it could be useful for us
to actually listen to say doesthat tell us something good
about, like what we could golearn about you or learn about
(21:39):
the job.
But it's sometimes the casewhere we have a feeling that's
not true.
So again, that's why you havesomeone there to make sure
you're you know you're notgetting in your own way.
Speaker 1 (21:49):
Well, in the best athletes in the world have
coaches for a reason.
So it makes sense thatprofessionals need a coach too,
because even though you're greatat what you do, we can't be our
own critic really notobjectively not to see what our
flaws are and to know where weneed help.
You know, as you're talkingabout being good at something,
(22:13):
it's equally important and youtouch on this briefly just
because you're good at itdoesn't mean you want to do it.
You know you have to reallyhave that.
It has to excite you.
It has to be something you'rewilling to put forth your best
in, and I think that gets lost alot too early on when decisions
are being made or when peopleare going through their career.
(22:33):
I think both our components areimportant.
Do you agree?
Speaker 2 (22:38):
Yeah, yeah, I feel like I had a client recently.
I mean, you have to know yourown self, because someone might
be really good at noticing thosewhatever patterns or challenges
or business challenges,whatever it may be.
But, yeah, is that the funactivity that you really want to
take on?
So, yeah, there are often casesfor very capable people who
might be good at many, manythings, but what feels most
(23:00):
enjoyable, what do you want togrow in?
You don't have to do it alljust because you could.
So, absolutely, that's a greatcomponent of it, and the beauty
of exploration is this is themoment where we only have to
talk about the things you reallylike.
Anything else, we just get ridof it.
So you have to remember andhave that reminder that this is
(23:20):
the moment to have choice.
This is the moment to get ridof the things you don't care
about.
We never have to think aboutthose or talk about those again.
You know what I mean.
Or, sure, if there's somethingyou're good at and it's not your
favorite, but maybe it'sadjacent to what you want to do,
could there be a reason whysomeone chooses to incorporate
that into their resume orwhatever, maybe, but knowing
(23:40):
yourself, I think, is the key,because I think someone's
personality may cause them topursue something for one reason
or another, and that's reallywhere you want to just
understand your drivers,essentially.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
I saw an exchange on Twitter, I think over the
weekend, where basically it tooka statement that says if you
find the job you love, it'llalmost feel like work, or
something to that effect.
I'm not sure what the exactsaying is, I'm sure you've heard
it.
And then someone said, yeah,but once it's a job, it no
(24:14):
longer is enjoyable.
And I thought, well, that'ssort of a pessimistic take on it
, right, and I do believe that Ididn't use to place great value
on this, but I do believe thatyou should find something that
you genuinely like doing,because I'm of the mindset that
(24:36):
in the right situation, itreally doesn't feel like work.
Is that hard to achieve?
I mean, is that a unicorn tochase or is it realistic?
Speaker 2 (24:44):
I like to help people be realistic, because I don't
like to use the words dream jobor things like that.
There's no job is perfect whenyou think about those three
sections that we're reflectingon in the assessment.
The first is the function.
So what I would ask yourself islike what affinity is, what am
I natural at, what do I enjoy orwhat am I good at?
That doesn't have to meanyou're sort of happy and it's
(25:08):
perfect and it feels this joyfulevery moment of every day.
But what is suitable for you,like if you're not great at
research or you don't like doingit, we're not going to lean
into that skill versus others.
There's so much variation inthe style of the work, of what
could make up your day or yourweek.
We're going to lean into thethings that are easier for you,
more comfortable, more natural.
(25:28):
They come more easily to you.
Right, we need to understandyourself.
And then the second piece is agreat way of aligning with
missions that you care about,which is the industry.
So that's a great way to findfulfillment or joy or
significance in your career,because you're supporting a
company or an industry wheretheir product or their service
or whatever it is they're doingfeels interesting to you.
(25:51):
So if you're not in that field,your role might have nothing to
do with here.
They might be, like you know,not as directly relevant to the
product or service, but everyonein a company is driving towards
that ultimate mission.
But that's one way of feeling,like you're sort of finding that
joy of fulfillment.
So I would just always break itdown into like what are the
components of the role versusthe industry, versus the iron
(26:12):
environment, and how can I findsomething that feels aligned or
suitable?
And I don't need to strive forthis perfect thing that no one's
walking in the clouds and youknow it's not perfect, nothing
is perfect.
But think realistically, likewhat is fitting, what is maybe
fulfilling, what is aligned,what would I be engaged in so
(26:32):
you could?
Another way to do it isGallup's definition, and when
you were talking aboutstatistics, majority of
professionals are disengaged atwork.
What would you be engaged in?
Which means you're checked inversus checked out.
You can think about it inrealistic ways for yourself.
Speaker 1 (26:48):
I saw that study you're referencing that came out
a few months back and I thoughtwhat a terrible thing.
Most people are showing upevery day, not even interested
in what it is they're doing, andso they're not going to thrive
that way.
Because even though you show up, that's not enough.
(27:08):
We know that If you're a hollowand you're not putting forth
your best effort, it's going tobe obvious to everyone around
you.
I truly believe that, and I'vebeen there.
I've been checked out before ona job where every day becomes
torture, and my advice to peopleis Stop immediately.
If you, if you're, in thatsituation, your number one
(27:32):
objective should be to changethat now.
It doesn't mean you can do itthat moment, but you have to
identify it when it happens I'ma big believer in this and then
figure out how to change yoursituation as soon as possible.
Speaker 2 (27:44):
I agree it's not like it's actually not responsible.
I think of us.
We affect ourselves, we affectthe personal relationships
around us, our physical andmental health, even our own
wealth potential.
Like, if you're not succeeding,you're literally affecting so
many things about you in yourlife.
But what about the companyyou're working for?
Are you the most productive andinnovative person for that job?
(28:05):
And you know, first society,like you know, we need all the
innovation.
We need the right people in theright jobs because we've got so
many problems to solve.
So you, you know, think aboutthe world problems.
You want People that should bein those jobs.
You know what I'm saying.
You could think about it thatway, but, yes, there's a lot of
reasons why you would want totake that into your own hands
(28:28):
and and and strive to findsomething that makes sense.
You exactly right it affectsyou, it affects others, it
affects so many things.
Speaker 1 (28:35):
Well, we talk we've talked a lot internally over the
past two years about quietquitting.
That's a term that has beenused so much and my take on that
is always what a shame, what ashame that someone feels so, so,
so separated from their jobs,so disinterested in it, where
they have to look at the detailsof their job description and
(28:59):
Operate line by line.
And I look at that and saythat's an unhealthy relationship
that you should look to get outof as soon as possible, where
you have to associate every actyou do with your job description
.
And, by the way, on the otherside, a company that looks at
their employees that way Isequally bad.
So if that's a feeling you have, it's incumbent upon you, and I
(29:22):
love the the phrase you use.
I mean irresponsible.
Yes, it is somewhatirresponsible to stay there
because in in addition toaffecting every aspect of your
job, it's gonna carry over.
Can't spend 40 hours a week atwork Unhappy, and then you'd be
happy outside of.
That's where most of our wakinghours are during the week
Sunrealistic.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
Exactly.
Yeah, no, I completely agree,and I think the quiet quitting
it's interesting, like we usedto all have that hustle culture.
It's one thing to have balance,it's okay to not be overworked,
but if you're noticing thatyou're checking out, ask
yourself why.
Maybe there's anotheropportunity at the same company
you don't have to like jobsearch.
(30:03):
What if you take on someprojects?
Or maybe there's a differentteam that's just better for you?
Maybe you've tapped out oflearning opportunities.
You know you hear about peoplethat are just like sort of
supposed to be working and notagain be responsible.
Like if someone's paying you,you should be doing the work.
You need to be down to the wireevery single minute.
Like, be responsible, do theright thing, work.
(30:26):
You know when you're supposedto be working.
But if you notice that you'retruly checking out, ask yourself
is it the role, is it the team,is it the department?
Is it the company?
Is it the culture?
Is it the industry?
What's going on for me?
What sort of change orimprovement could I make?
Again, the goal is not thatyou're overwork.
You know quiet quitting.
I think some people need alittle break and they need a
little breather.
(30:46):
But you need to ask yourselflike how do I find work life
balance and also find a careerpath that is suitable and
fitting?
You can have those things.
Those are reasonable things tostrive for.
So if you notice that you'reready for something new and
different, just lean into thatand say, like what could be next
?
Again, that doesn't have tomean you're burned out and
(31:06):
overworked, it just means you'rechecked in and doing work
that's interesting.
Right.
Like in our life, should wetake breaks?
That's what days offer for.
Take your vacation days, right.
Take those breaks.
You don't need to workendlessly, right.
Find an environment where youhave work life balance.
But find a job that you're notentirely checked out either,
right?
Speaker 1 (31:26):
and and it's it's Not out of the ordinary.
In fact, it is necessary formany people to get help in doing
that and that sign of weakness.
It's just we're not equipped todo that.
I mean, there's no roadmap forthese things and it's why as I
think I shared with you thefirst time we we met is that the
ZenGig logo is a.
(31:47):
It was originally a windingpath up a hill, because that is
how I see careers.
Where you start is Not.
There's not a direct route, Imean, unless we get very lucky,
and that happens by coincidence,and you shouldn't rely on luck.
You should plan on Change inhow you feel the situation that
you're in and then take action.
(32:08):
So that's why I'm the fan ofeverything you're describing,
because we need that, we needhelp in taking action.
It's just there's just noroadmap for that.
Speaker 2 (32:17):
Yeah, totally it's, it's.
It's very okay to get support.
And if you career coaching getslike a weird rap, you know, but
it's like anything else, ifyou're gonna do invest in the
financial markets, you're gonnaget a financial advisor, like
you're not gonna go intosomething that you don't know
how to do.
We were never taught how tonavigate careers or job search,
so it's okay to learn and getguidance and be supported.
(32:38):
You don't have to go it allalone.
It's a really big, important,sometimes stressful thing.
So have support, even if it's amentor or peers.
Have someone near you, aroundyou that can you know be there,
and you don't have to sort of goit all alone.
The other quick thing I willjust say too is the benefits it
has for your job search.
Right, I think people go intojob search and are looking for
(33:01):
so many things.
It's this like counterintuitivething where people think by
looking for so many options,they're gonna move faster or
have more options, but it'sgonna slow you down if you have
seven versions of the resume.
So what I always say is havingthis clarity.
It's not that being narrowmeans you're having less
opportunity.
You can go find more of theright thing, but what I've seen
is the clarity makes you moreefficient in Finding the right
(33:24):
things, getting into the rightconversation, the right people,
the right teams, being effectivein interviews with a compelling
story that makes sense, versuslike I'm just saying the thing
that makes sense on paper, right, it's like what, what do you
want?
And if it makes sense to you,it's gonna make sense to them
and increasing the odd that youactually like the job once you
get there.
So it's it's important to thinkabout all the reasons and the
(33:45):
benefits.
Of course, it just feels goodto know your direction, but
there's actually practicalreasons why we would do this too
for your job search.
Speaker 1 (33:53):
And when you say clarity, it's of course when you
hear that you say, yes, that issomething I need and and it
makes so much sense, but it'smuch easier said than done to
achieve and that's why you needsomeone.
I mean, I would Be sure to sayand you may disagree, so tell me
if you do that, if you were soMotivated to do so, all of this
(34:16):
information is available online.
You could do your own homeworkand research and figure it out
on your own, just like I couldgrow my own crops if I was so
motivated to write that researchis there but it's not practical
.
We need to let leverage expertsto, so we don't have to
reinvent the wheel.
I mean, that's why specialistsexist.
And so when I think of yourservice, I think of the need for
(34:40):
some for accountability, tohave someone to hold you
accountable, because we knowwe're not, we know we're not
supposed to eat the cookie at 10o'clock at night, right, or
have that, or eat the cake orwhatever it is, but we do it
anyway because making the rightchoice is hard.
It's hard to spend those time.
We're all very busy.
So when I think of your serviceas much as anything else, I
think of the value ofaccountability in this, and if
(35:04):
you have someone looking overyour shoulder, you're going to
perform better.
You're going to do those thingsthat are hard to do on your own
100%.
Speaker 2 (35:11):
I always say we're an accountability company.
We have to keep you motivated,engaged and structured.
And on top of it, and what'sthe next step?
We're very action-focused andalso having the visual tools.
It's one thing to have acoaching conversation, but
physically get in there andwhat's the work and what are the
options.
And I love to document thingsvisually so that we can move
(35:31):
through, make progress andfigure out what's next.
So having the tools, having aprocess and knowing what to do,
how to do it, when to do it,where to do it, why to do it
that's what we're here to do ismake that process as easy as
humanly possible and make sureyou don't get in your own way,
like we said earlier.
So, like you said, you couldresearch this on your own, but I
(35:52):
do find that people researchendlessly and so that benefit of
networking when you can hearsomeone describe a job and
really decide how you feel, tosay what aligns or doesn't align
, so you want to understand whatelse decides, just the tools
you can access.
And how do I go access thosetools properly?
That's the other thing.
Right, I'll teach somebody howto research efficiently or how
(36:13):
to use networking strategically,so you may know some of this,
but how do you really take it tothe next level and make sure
you get to your goal right?
You don't want to be guessingand just trying to research or
network without getting anywheretoo right.
So we're here.
We're here to help and, yeah,find support.
You don't have to be alone inthis career journey.
(36:34):
It's such a big part of yourlife, it's so important.
It impacts things, whether wewant to believe it or not.
And have some support therewith you.
You deserve it.
Speaker 1 (36:44):
And you'll be better for it.
So let's talk about how to getthat help.
Rachel, where do they start?
Go to your website, call you.
Where should someone begin?
Speaker 2 (36:53):
Yes, so our website is imwokencom.
We have a ton of free resourceson there.
We always offer a free initial20-minute call so you can always
get to know who are we and whatwould we do.
What are your goals, challenges, timeline, what are our
recommendations.
But, yeah, you can find mewherever I'm very much on
LinkedIn.
You can message me, you canemail If you have questions.
(37:15):
We are literally here to helpwith so many free resources on
our website because we genuinelywant people to have the right
information.
So please find me, reach outand we would love to help you.
Speaker 1 (37:26):
Wonderful.
We'd love for everyone to behelped, and we'll help them find
you too.
We'll put Rachel's contactinformation in our show notes,
so thank you so much for yourtime today.
This is great, a lot of veryhelpful information, and if this
gives some people the spark totake that step, then we've done
our job today, I think.
So, rachel.
Anything else before you wrapup?
Speaker 2 (37:47):
Oh goodness, I don't think so.
I think we've said it all.
But yeah, just if you'relistening, know that people are
there to help.
And again, you don't have to bealone in this.
And yeah, just know there'sways to feel more comfortable.
Often careers are so stressful,but it just means that it's
important to you.
So take it to the.
(38:09):
When you get support throughsomething important, then,
rather than being stressful, youjust make it a focus, you
commit to it with the rightnavigation.
It's never a walk in the park,but you can have support to feel
informed in your approach, andthat is something you can get.
So just know that we're hereand come find me.
Speaker 1 (38:30):
Perfect and we think of it in our world as careers in
.
And if you haven't found it, ifyou're not feeling it, don't
settle, act on it.
It doesn't have to take longand you can't end up in a very
different place and Rachel'shere to help.
So thank you for your timetoday.
Speaker 2 (38:45):
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (38:47):
All right, everyone.
Thanks for listening.
Talk soon.
You're listening to the Finding Careers in podcast.
I'm Pete Newsom and I'm joinedtoday by Rachel Sirwitz from
Woken.
Rachel, how are you today?
I am great.
How are you?
I am good.
Career coach, ceo and founderof Woken.
You're pretty busy, rachel.
Just a little bit Well.
Thank you for joining me today.
Before we go too far, I want toask you to introduce your
(00:29):
company and tell me what theWoken name means.
I already know the story, butI'd love for you to share it
again.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Yeah, we are a career coaching company.
We help all different kinds ofprofessionals with all different
kinds of career goals orchallenges.
Whether you're clarifying yourpath, you're debating,
upskilling, you're strengtheningyour branding, job searching,
networking, interviewing, youname it, we help people with all
career goals and co-pilot youthrough those journeys.
(00:58):
And we do have a softwarecomponent plus.
We do coaching sessions.
In terms of where we came upwith our name, I used to always
say that we're waking upprofessionals to take control
over their career.
I used to see that people wouldeither go about it all by
themselves or just assume thatschool or whatever resources
(01:20):
they were given was sufficientand so, like anything else you
would take on in your life, it'ssort of that extracurricular in
a way, where you want to go outof your way to get the right
support and guidance andresources and there's such big,
important decisions, so justmaking sure that you have
support through that.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
Wonderful, love it.
Well, you and I, when we firstconnected a couple of weeks ago,
we got down the road would.
You were sharing your thoughtson career path exploration, so I
wanted to spend time on thattoday because I know that's a
specialty of yours and I thinkto your point about the
importance of a career search.
This is at the heart of it, andlet me just ask you, before we
(02:01):
go too far down there most, whydo you think most people are bad
at this?
I mean, it's such a big part ofour lives but it's a constant
struggle.
I know that from my career instaffing.
You, of course, have built yourbusiness around helping people
figure that out.
Why is it so tough?
Speaker 2 (02:18):
There's a lot of reasons.
I think that our example of aperson in this world is the
assumption that, like you, mayalways go your life without
knowing what your best fitcareer path is, and so we sort
of assume that's normal.
We don't really have a scalable, effective, affordable way to
clarify your past right.
(02:39):
Sometimes we try, we'll read abook and then we'll say that
didn't help me, or we'll take anassessment and say I'm left
with lackluster results.
Or maybe there's a course thatwe follow, but then we don't
actually take it into action.
So there's a lot of resourceswe may try.
Coaches oftentimes are tooexpensive, so there's things out
there, but there's usually areason why it falls short, and
(03:01):
so it's really not to anyone'sfault.
It's just sometimes the systemsand the resources and the
guidance we have either aren'teffective enough or holding you
accountable or affordable.
There's reasons for it.
But yeah, that's kind of whywe're here trying to make it so
that any professional can followthat journey and feel clear and
(03:22):
feel certain and feel confidentand feel informed in terms of
where are they going in theircareer, why are they pursuing
that, versus like we go into jobsearch and we're just sort of
we don't know what we'researching for, we don't know why
we're searching for it or wehave way too many options and
we're just okay with that andthat's normal.
But I try to help people to seeyou can explore before you job
(03:44):
search and look how muchdifferent that's going to make
your journey right.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
Well, we push kids and I say kids because I sound
like the old guy with this, butwhen you're 18, 19, 20, you are
a kid in many respects.
You're sort of there to me andI have four children and my
oldest is 23,.
My youngest is 15.
So I live this every day withthem, where I'll say the system
and that's sort of a crude wayto phrase it, but kind of
(04:11):
doesn't isn't really set up tohelp young people make these
very important decisions.
And I don't necessarily havethe answer to fixing that, but I
do know that it's somethingthat is such a challenge where
we have, you know, kids go downthis path and by default they
stay on it, without stoppingwhen they're 25, 30, 35,
(04:32):
necessarily to say, hey, is thisthe right path for me?
Right, just because it's theone you started on, isn't the
one you should remain on?
And I'm sure you you have somethoughts on that.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
Yeah, you know it's funny, because either you're too
scared to get off and you knowpivot, because it's a really big
deal, or it gets too late, andthen you're like I can't take
this anymore.
So people do pivot, you know,but you just don't want to wait
so long.
And so, to your point incollege, like those are those
early days that are so important.
(05:03):
But but you're right, becauseit's hard that we sort of force
somebody who's really a youngprofessional to make a decision
about their major when theydon't actually have the answer
yet as to what is it I want tostudy.
I always say, you know, I wentin undecided and I wish that
every single student could justbe undecided, because they are
(05:23):
meaning we hear your major.
Right, it should line up withthe timing of when you know what
it is you want to pursue.
Often we're just studyingsomething and then we're
figuring it out later.
And so in an ideal world, youknow we are exploring, we're
doing research, we're doingnetworking, we're doing
reflection and we're learning asearly and often as possible.
Right, it doesn't mean you haveto decide perfectly from the
(05:46):
beginning, but you just want tosay, like I'm putting in this
intentional effort to beinformed about what I'm like and
what my career options are,that at least you can be in the
right ballpark.
Right, we see people who aremaking career decisions for all
the wrong reasons and thenyou're sort of discounting, like
, well, what am I good at andwhat makes sense for me?
And then it comes back to sortof bite you later.
(06:09):
So you have to go into each ofthose decisions with the time it
deserves to do that explorationand it will pay off.
And then you want your careerpath to build organically right
Versus, like I picked somethingfor the wrong reasons and now
later I need to like totally 180, you know.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
Yeah, well, and what you think is important at 17, 18
, 19, and this is cliche, butit's cliche because it's so true
, we know this what you think,then, is going to be vastly
different than your perspectiveat 25, 30,.
As your life goes on, yoursituation changes and your
perspective changes along withit.
(06:49):
So, when it comes to careerpath exploration, who is it for?
I mean, if you had to, if youmap out the perfect scenario,
what?
How would the timing look onthat?
Speaker 2 (07:01):
And to your point.
Yes, things do change.
But that's kind of part of theproblem is, like when you're
young, a lot of you know folksare making decisions just on,
like what is a secure careerpath, but it's not secure if,
like, you're not good at thatthing or you're going to hate
doing that thing.
So we have to think ofholistically.
We are human and so you have tothink of all the important
factors.
(07:22):
It is hard when you're young tolike either influence and
educate and motivate someone tohave that perspective when they
haven't worked yet.
So to answer your question, whois it for?
It's really at every singlestage you know, the earlier the
better when you start, but trulyany moment it's kind of the who
and the when is is similarbecause anytime you're making a
(07:43):
change or transition would be atime to go through the journey
of exploration.
Once you're later in your career, if you've already done
exploration, you might need ashorter journey.
So, for example, if you alreadyknow you're on generally the
right path but you're ready forthe next thing, you might just
need a few days or a few weeksto clarify and refine what's
next for you, but early days youmight need more time to do that
(08:06):
, anytime you're about to enterlike a job search, and apply to
something, even if it's apromotion or internal mobility
within your company, whereveryou're working, whenever you're
ready for the next step and achange, whether you're starting,
whether you're, you know, earlycareer, whether you're mid or
later.
The whole point is to have aperiod of research, learning,
(08:28):
networking, reflection.
Give yourself however much timeyou need to think and just say
what's next for me, what's rightfor me, what's best for me, and
explore before you apply toanything.
Now, sometimes we can't affordthat time, and if that's the
case, then that's fine.
Sometimes a job is meant for Ijust need to support myself
(08:48):
right now, and in thosesituations you can work with
what you have.
But to the extent that you canproactively do this, that would
be ideal.
Speaker 1 (08:58):
And easier said than done.
We know that.
But so important and I justwrote something the other day
because the age of my kids and Iam constantly around their
friends and talking to those,the parents of those kids it's a
challenge that nearly everyonehas.
I don't want to put apercentage on it, but one out of
(09:19):
a pretty big number, I wouldsay knows what they want to do
when they're getting out of highschool and being told go now,
go pick a go to college hugedecision, go pick a major,
something that you're going to,in theory, specialize in and
have to earn an income from forthe rest of your year, for the
rest of your life.
Which is kind of insane, rightwhen you think about it.
(09:42):
Because, to the point you madeearlier, you haven't worked out
in the real world yet, youhaven't had much experience and
exposure.
So you're making these lifechoices with, and you're not
really armed with, a whole lotof experience to do it on.
So we can't fix that wholesystem, at least not today at
this call, but I think we canacknowledge it and the
(10:03):
importance of having the time toexplore.
So, if you wouldn't mind, I'dlike to talk about the advice
and the exploration path thatsomeone who's younger would go
through versus someone who'scoming to that first realization
.
And I almost everyone I know hashad this right.
Some are lucky and they get itright out of the gate, but where
(10:24):
you get deep a little bit intoyour career and you go, okay,
this isn't working.
I need to pivot.
I need to do something vastlydifferent.
So let's start with youngpeople.
Where should they begin in theexploration process?
Speaker 2 (10:38):
Well, so the process I guide people through is
actually largely very similar.
Now, how much information anddata you have about yourself is
going to grow.
So when you have your first fewjobs, there's going to be more
for you to reflect on in a waythat's clear to you what did I
like and what did I not like?
Right, when you're younger, youhave less of those experiences,
(10:58):
but you can always learn fromother people about what's out
there.
So it's a combination oflearning about yourself and
learning from others.
You know in terms of whatcareers exist and what do they
really look and feel like.
That's what it is right, butthe stage that you're in it's
going to change how muchinformation you have about
yourself.
You can always go learn aboutwhat's out there.
(11:19):
So would it be helpful I couldlike walk you through just sort
of the step-by-step problem.
Speaker 1 (11:23):
Yeah, just absolutely .
That would be great.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
Cool.
So the first step that I liketo do well, first is a little
bit of a commitment moment, likedo I even want to go on this
journey and am I ready?
Because it does take a littlebit of time.
So you have to just be readyfor that and enter into the
phase of knowing you don't knowand just being comfortable and
swimming in that uncertainty.
I think that's another reasonpeople avoid this, because it's
(11:49):
uncomfortable to not know, butjust go into it and say I'm
going to create a structuredprocess to make it comfortable
and make it easy to learn andexplore and work through these
questions.
That's step number one.
Then, once you're ready, Iactually have an assessment, but
you can do this manually andyou could just reflect.
And so there's really threethings I like to reflect on.
So the first is what I call thefunction, which is essentially
(12:13):
your affinities, it's the skills, it's sort of your habits, it's
what you're natural at, it'swhat you're good at, it's those
verbs and action phrases.
It's really the day-to-dayexperience.
The second piece is what I callcontent, which is essentially
the top of areas or the problemareas that you feel are
important or interesting orinnovative or intriguing to you.
(12:34):
The third is the environment.
What should it look and feellike?
The people, the piece, all thebells and whistles of the
reality of it, and so sectionnumber one, that functional
element, is going to translateinto potential roles.
The second piece is going totranslate into potential
industries.
A lot of assessment, a lot ofcoaches, a lot of things out
(12:55):
there will munch roll andindustry, but they're totally
separate.
You could go do so many rolesin so many industries, so you
got to separate those two.
It's also a great way toincorporate some of your
interests.
You may not want to be a chef,but you could go find companies
that focus on food in so manyways.
That's just one of manyexamples.
So once you have the optionsfor roles and industries the
(13:18):
other thing, assessments willspit out one answer.
You should come up with a fewroles and a few industries that
feel relevant or viable based onyour reflections.
Then we do want to do a tinybit of research.
Obviously, we have Google,blogs, youtube, tiktok, chat,
gbt.
These are good informationalresources, but they're online
resources.
You're only going to learn somuch, so be efficient.
(13:40):
I think another pitfall is thatpeople research for weeks or
months or years on end.
We need to move to the nextphase, which is what I call
networking.
So imagine you're setting up 15, 20, 30-minute informational
calls with people who are in theroles in the industries that
you actually are considering.
You're learning.
(14:01):
Now you have to do this.
Well, a lot of people set upthese calls and then they're
like didn't get out of it whatthey wanted to.
So really be creative with whatyou ask and how you ask it.
And then what I like to do isgo through these pivot loops.
So you're learning, you'rereflecting, you're synthesizing
and you're pivoting to say whatdid I like, what did I not like
and what should I go do next.
And you are very iterative andover the course of a few weeks
(14:24):
and a lot of learning, you'llprobably uncover roles you never
heard of.
And you really are being honestwith these people to say here's
what I know about myself,here's what I think this role is
all about.
Can you tell me what is in yourexposure, in your purview?
And you keep going throughthose and that's really what
gets you to the point ofconfidently knowing what role,
what industry and whatenvironment makes the most sense
(14:45):
.
A lot of people go intoupskilling too soon Like let me
go do an internship, let me godo this course, let me try out
the skill.
To me, a networking call if youdo it right is the most dynamic
and comprehensive way to behonest with a person so that
they can be honest with you andtogether you can figure out what
makes sense.
Upskilling sometimes is a goodway of testing things out, but
(15:08):
sometimes really, it may notmirror what is this job like.
It may not tell you what wouldit be like if I was good at this
in a year from now.
You want that high-levelpicture of what does a week look
like on this job.
So that's the quick version ofwhat the process is.
Speaker 1 (15:26):
That's a lot.
That is a lot.
It's very involved, it's verydeep and it's multifaceted,
which I think is so interestingto hear, because most of us
don't get to take that timeright.
We either weren't aware that iteven exists Service is like the
one you provide, so this isgreat that you have an
(15:46):
opportunity to share it or wejust don't think that way.
The world doesn't really tellus to stop and really explore.
It almost rushes us intogetting a job, and I can't tell
you how many times I've heardthat Pick something so you can
get a job.
And to me that's verydemoralizing to hear because
(16:07):
your job is so much of your lifeand how you spend it.
So everything that you justdescribed, while it's a lot of
effort and a commitment, thereward for making that
commitment is immense and Ithink it is such an important
thing to do.
And, quite frankly, the wordexplore there's no better word
for it.
That's exactly what you justdescribed deep exploration.
Speaker 2 (16:31):
The amount of time and effort to put in versus what
you get out.
The ratio is just not evennormal.
That's what I try to encouragepeople.
On average, if you put in twoto three hours a week, it
usually takes about two to threemonths, but I've seen someone
do this as if it was theirfull-time job and it lasted them
about a month.
So it's not crazy.
(16:51):
Like sure, it's commitment, it'sdiscipline, there's some time
and effort, but it also could bepretty practical, pretty
straightforward and prettyefficient.
If you have the right supportthrough it, it doesn't have to
take forever.
And so imagine you can actuallyfeel clear and confident.
The other end of it people comein lost and confused and stuck
and stressed.
On the other end, you'reactually relieved, you feel
(17:13):
certain, you feel free, becauseyou can actually focus on.
Let me now go after what it isI want, versus questioning where
I belong and so what you'vebeen from it.
So, yes, it's effort, but itdoesn't have to be this hard
thing that lasts forever andgets support to make it as easy
as possible and it'll pay offright.
Speaker 1 (17:35):
Well, what I think of putting forth that kind of
effort, that's what's needed tobe successful, right?
I mean, unless it's bycoincidence, I don't know people
who just show up from day oneand they're successful at doing
anything.
So if you want to run amarathon, you've got to train
for it.
If you want to be a physician,you have to go to medical school
(17:57):
.
I mean, there are certainthings that are necessary.
So it just makes sense to methat if you want to have
happiness and fulfill it andsuccess in your career, well,
you should kind of create a goodbaseline and foundation for
those things.
So I think it's the right kindof effort, great effort.
How do you know when you'redone, I mean you've put?
(18:18):
How do you know, is there alight bulb moment that happens?
Speaker 2 (18:21):
Yeah, so it may feel like a light bulb, but I would
say, yeah, sometimes there is anaha moment, but usually, with
incrementally increasinginformation, it increases your
self-awareness, your insightsand your clarity on what's right
or not right for you, and soinformation really drives it
(18:43):
right.
This is grounded in somethingvery real.
We're not just like pulling theanswers from thin air.
Information is going to driveyour ability to have answers and
to know what's right for you ornot, and to lean in to talk to
the right people and not thewrong people.
So it's very much action-basedand practical.
But yeah, you will get to thepoint.
What I always say is, if youstill have options, it means you
(19:05):
need to do more learning ormere reflection, or both People.
Yeah, they don't.
It's sort of a weird thing toknow that there will be this
endpoint.
But, yes, if you're not feelingcertain yet, ask yourself what
are the open questions orhesitations?
Do I need to learn more?
Or just think about what I'velearned?
Usually, if you have somethingon your mind still, we can deal
(19:28):
with that in one way or another.
Does that mean that?
First of all, by the way, nojob is perfect.
You may say, knowing thechallenges of this job, I still
think it's right for me.
So it's not that anything hasto be perfect, it's just you
want to feel informed and, basedon that full sense of
information, you'll feel certainand ready to go pursue it.
Or, if there's still hiccups orhesitations, you'll go back to
(19:50):
learning and not go back to thedrawing board.
But you'll see.
What does this mean?
Does that mean I should moveinto something else, whatever it
may mean for your next step?
So, yes, there is a point ofthat surgery that you will feel
ready enough and informed enoughto go pursue that path.
Speaker 1 (20:06):
I would imagine someone has to go into this with
a really open mind.
Is that a challenge for youwhen you start working with
someone for the first time?
Speaker 2 (20:13):
Yeah, I would say people's like limiting beliefs
do come into play, but that'swhy you walk with a coach to
make sure that your limitingbeliefs are not making your
decisions right.
So it's okay and it's normaland it's human, but we have to
overcome that.
So, for example, if someone'slike I don't know if I'm capable
of learning that thing orupskilling or pivoting into that
(20:34):
thing or doing that skill orwhatever it may be, how can we
learn more?
How can we get a realisticpicture?
Can we shadow somebody?
How can we better understand?
What did it take for them toreally get there?
What was the training like?
What is the complexity?
Can you ask really goodquestions to get a real life
picture and then relate thatback to yourself?
So when you have, like athird-party person to help you
(20:55):
process your thoughts, yourfeelings, it's really going to
help you see yourselfobjectively, make sure you have
the right information and makesure you're making decisions
based on information and not alimiting belief.
There's any number of mindsetsthat do show up, but that's,
yeah, again, why you havesomebody there to support you
through it and you know ifsomething is too hard for you.
(21:17):
Like that's just a signal thatit's not the right job, which is
okay, right, there's.
Any job is either hard tosomeone and easy to someone else
, like what is fitting for yourstrengths and your affinities.
So any sort of feeling that youhave, it could be useful for us
to actually listen to say doesthat tell us something good
about, like what we could golearn about you or learn about
(21:39):
the job.
But it's sometimes the casewhere we have a feeling that's
not true.
So again, that's why you havesomeone there to make sure
you're you know you're notgetting in your own way.
Speaker 1 (21:49):
Well, in the best athletes in the world have
coaches for a reason.
So it makes sense thatprofessionals need a coach too,
because even though you're greatat what you do, we can't be our
own critic really notobjectively not to see what our
flaws are and to know where weneed help.
You know, as you're talkingabout being good at something,
(22:13):
it's equally important and youtouch on this briefly just
because you're good at itdoesn't mean you want to do it.
You know you have to reallyhave that.
It has to excite you.
It has to be something you'rewilling to put forth your best
in, and I think that gets lost alot too early on when decisions
are being made or when peopleare going through their career.
(22:33):
I think both our components areimportant.
Do you agree?
Speaker 2 (22:38):
Yeah, yeah, I feel like I had a client recently.
I mean, you have to know yourown self, because someone might
be really good at noticing thosewhatever patterns or challenges
or business challenges,whatever it may be.
But, yeah, is that the funactivity that you really want to
take on?
So, yeah, there are often casesfor very capable people who
might be good at many, manythings, but what feels most
(23:00):
enjoyable, what do you want togrow in?
You don't have to do it alljust because you could.
So, absolutely, that's a greatcomponent of it, and the beauty
of exploration is this is themoment where we only have to
talk about the things you reallylike.
Anything else, we just get ridof it.
So you have to remember andhave that reminder that this is
(23:20):
the moment to have choice.
This is the moment to get ridof the things you don't care
about.
We never have to think aboutthose or talk about those again.
You know what I mean.
Or, sure, if there's somethingyou're good at and it's not your
favorite, but maybe it'sadjacent to what you want to do,
could there be a reason whysomeone chooses to incorporate
that into their resume orwhatever, maybe, but knowing
(23:40):
yourself, I think, is the key,because I think someone's
personality may cause them topursue something for one reason
or another, and that's reallywhere you want to just
understand your drivers,essentially.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
I saw an exchange on Twitter, I think over the
weekend, where basically it tooka statement that says if you
find the job you love, it'llalmost feel like work, or
something to that effect.
I'm not sure what the exactsaying is, I'm sure you've heard
it.
And then someone said, yeah,but once it's a job, it no
(24:14):
longer is enjoyable.
And I thought, well, that'ssort of a pessimistic take on it
, right, and I do believe that Ididn't use to place great value
on this, but I do believe thatyou should find something that
you genuinely like doing,because I'm of the mindset that
(24:36):
in the right situation, itreally doesn't feel like work.
Is that hard to achieve?
I mean, is that a unicorn tochase or is it realistic?
Speaker 2 (24:44):
I like to help people be realistic, because I don't
like to use the words dream jobor things like that.
There's no job is perfect whenyou think about those three
sections that we're reflectingon in the assessment.
The first is the function.
So what I would ask yourself islike what affinity is, what am
I natural at, what do I enjoy orwhat am I good at?
That doesn't have to meanyou're sort of happy and it's
(25:08):
perfect and it feels this joyfulevery moment of every day.
But what is suitable for you,like if you're not great at
research or you don't like doingit, we're not going to lean
into that skill versus others.
There's so much variation inthe style of the work, of what
could make up your day or yourweek.
We're going to lean into thethings that are easier for you,
more comfortable, more natural.
(25:28):
They come more easily to you.
Right, we need to understandyourself.
And then the second piece is agreat way of aligning with
missions that you care about,which is the industry.
So that's a great way to findfulfillment or joy or
significance in your career,because you're supporting a
company or an industry wheretheir product or their service
or whatever it is they're doingfeels interesting to you.
(25:51):
So if you're not in that field,your role might have nothing to
do with here.
They might be, like you know,not as directly relevant to the
product or service, but everyonein a company is driving towards
that ultimate mission.
But that's one way of feeling,like you're sort of finding that
joy of fulfillment.
So I would just always break itdown into like what are the
components of the role versusthe industry, versus the iron
(26:12):
environment, and how can I findsomething that feels aligned or
suitable?
And I don't need to strive forthis perfect thing that no one's
walking in the clouds and youknow it's not perfect, nothing
is perfect.
But think realistically, likewhat is fitting, what is maybe
fulfilling, what is aligned,what would I be engaged in so
(26:32):
you could?
Another way to do it isGallup's definition, and when
you were talking aboutstatistics, majority of
professionals are disengaged atwork.
What would you be engaged in?
Which means you're checked inversus checked out.
You can think about it inrealistic ways for yourself.
Speaker 1 (26:48):
I saw that study you're referencing that came out
a few months back and I thoughtwhat a terrible thing.
Most people are showing upevery day, not even interested
in what it is they're doing, andso they're not going to thrive
that way.
Because even though you show up, that's not enough.
(27:08):
We know that If you're a hollowand you're not putting forth
your best effort, it's going tobe obvious to everyone around
you.
I truly believe that, and I'vebeen there.
I've been checked out before ona job where every day becomes
torture, and my advice to peopleis Stop immediately.
If you, if you're, in thatsituation, your number one
(27:32):
objective should be to changethat now.
It doesn't mean you can do itthat moment, but you have to
identify it when it happens I'ma big believer in this and then
figure out how to change yoursituation as soon as possible.
Speaker 2 (27:44):
I agree it's not like it's actually not responsible.
I think of us.
We affect ourselves, we affectthe personal relationships
around us, our physical andmental health, even our own
wealth potential.
Like, if you're not succeeding,you're literally affecting so
many things about you in yourlife.
But what about the companyyou're working for?
Are you the most productive andinnovative person for that job?
(28:05):
And you know, first society,like you know, we need all the
innovation.
We need the right people in theright jobs because we've got so
many problems to solve.
So you, you know, think aboutthe world problems.
You want People that should bein those jobs.
You know what I'm saying.
You could think about it thatway, but, yes, there's a lot of
reasons why you would want totake that into your own hands
(28:28):
and and and strive to findsomething that makes sense.
You exactly right it affectsyou, it affects others, it
affects so many things.
Speaker 1 (28:35):
Well, we talk we've talked a lot internally over the
past two years about quietquitting.
That's a term that has beenused so much and my take on that
is always what a shame, what ashame that someone feels so, so,
so separated from their jobs,so disinterested in it, where
they have to look at the detailsof their job description and
(28:59):
Operate line by line.
And I look at that and saythat's an unhealthy relationship
that you should look to get outof as soon as possible, where
you have to associate every actyou do with your job description
.
And, by the way, on the otherside, a company that looks at
their employees that way Isequally bad.
So if that's a feeling you have, it's incumbent upon you, and I
(29:22):
love the the phrase you use.
I mean irresponsible.
Yes, it is somewhatirresponsible to stay there
because in in addition toaffecting every aspect of your
job, it's gonna carry over.
Can't spend 40 hours a week atwork Unhappy, and then you'd be
happy outside of.
That's where most of our wakinghours are during the week
Sunrealistic.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
Exactly.
Yeah, no, I completely agree,and I think the quiet quitting
it's interesting, like we usedto all have that hustle culture.
It's one thing to have balance,it's okay to not be overworked,
but if you're noticing thatyou're checking out, ask
yourself why.
Maybe there's anotheropportunity at the same company
you don't have to like jobsearch.
(30:03):
What if you take on someprojects?
Or maybe there's a differentteam that's just better for you?
Maybe you've tapped out oflearning opportunities.
You know you hear about peoplethat are just like sort of
supposed to be working and notagain be responsible.
Like if someone's paying you,you should be doing the work.
You need to be down to the wireevery single minute.
Like, be responsible, do theright thing, work.
(30:26):
You know when you're supposedto be working.
But if you notice that you'retruly checking out, ask yourself
is it the role, is it the team,is it the department?
Is it the company?
Is it the culture?
Is it the industry?
What's going on for me?
What sort of change orimprovement could I make?
Again, the goal is not thatyou're overwork.
You know quiet quitting.
I think some people need alittle break and they need a
little breather.
(30:46):
But you need to ask yourselflike how do I find work life
balance and also find a careerpath that is suitable and
fitting?
You can have those things.
Those are reasonable things tostrive for.
So if you notice that you'reready for something new and
different, just lean into thatand say, like what could be next
?
Again, that doesn't have tomean you're burned out and
(31:06):
overworked, it just means you'rechecked in and doing work
that's interesting.
Right.
Like in our life, should wetake breaks?
That's what days offer for.
Take your vacation days, right.
Take those breaks.
You don't need to workendlessly, right.
Find an environment where youhave work life balance.
But find a job that you're notentirely checked out either,
right?
Speaker 1 (31:26):
and and it's it's Not out of the ordinary.
In fact, it is necessary formany people to get help in doing
that and that sign of weakness.
It's just we're not equipped todo that.
I mean, there's no roadmap forthese things and it's why as I
think I shared with you thefirst time we we met is that the
ZenGig logo is a.
(31:47):
It was originally a windingpath up a hill, because that is
how I see careers.
Where you start is Not.
There's not a direct route, Imean, unless we get very lucky,
and that happens by coincidence,and you shouldn't rely on luck.
You should plan on Change inhow you feel the situation that
you're in and then take action.
(32:08):
So that's why I'm the fan ofeverything you're describing,
because we need that, we needhelp in taking action.
It's just there's just noroadmap for that.
Speaker 2 (32:17):
Yeah, totally it's, it's.
It's very okay to get support.
And if you career coaching getslike a weird rap, you know, but
it's like anything else, ifyou're gonna do invest in the
financial markets, you're gonnaget a financial advisor, like
you're not gonna go intosomething that you don't know
how to do.
We were never taught how tonavigate careers or job search,
so it's okay to learn and getguidance and be supported.
(32:38):
You don't have to go it allalone.
It's a really big, important,sometimes stressful thing.
So have support, even if it's amentor or peers.
Have someone near you, aroundyou that can you know be there,
and you don't have to sort of goit all alone.
The other quick thing I willjust say too is the benefits it
has for your job search.
Right, I think people go intojob search and are looking for
(33:01):
so many things.
It's this like counterintuitivething where people think by
looking for so many options,they're gonna move faster or
have more options, but it'sgonna slow you down if you have
seven versions of the resume.
So what I always say is havingthis clarity.
It's not that being narrowmeans you're having less
opportunity.
You can go find more of theright thing, but what I've seen
is the clarity makes you moreefficient in Finding the right
(33:24):
things, getting into the rightconversation, the right people,
the right teams, being effectivein interviews with a compelling
story that makes sense, versuslike I'm just saying the thing
that makes sense on paper, right, it's like what, what do you
want?
And if it makes sense to you,it's gonna make sense to them
and increasing the odd that youactually like the job once you
get there.
So it's it's important to thinkabout all the reasons and the
(33:45):
benefits.
Of course, it just feels goodto know your direction, but
there's actually practicalreasons why we would do this too
for your job search.
Speaker 1 (33:53):
And when you say clarity, it's of course when you
hear that you say, yes, that issomething I need and and it
makes so much sense, but it'smuch easier said than done to
achieve and that's why you needsomeone.
I mean, I would Be sure to sayand you may disagree, so tell me
if you do that, if you were soMotivated to do so, all of this
(34:16):
information is available online.
You could do your own homeworkand research and figure it out
on your own, just like I couldgrow my own crops if I was so
motivated to write that researchis there but it's not practical
.
We need to let leverage expertsto, so we don't have to
reinvent the wheel.
I mean, that's why specialistsexist.
And so when I think of yourservice, I think of the need for
(34:40):
some for accountability, tohave someone to hold you
accountable, because we knowwe're not, we know we're not
supposed to eat the cookie at 10o'clock at night, right, or
have that, or eat the cake orwhatever it is, but we do it
anyway because making the rightchoice is hard.
It's hard to spend those time.
We're all very busy.
So when I think of your serviceas much as anything else, I
think of the value ofaccountability in this, and if
(35:04):
you have someone looking overyour shoulder, you're going to
perform better.
You're going to do those thingsthat are hard to do on your own
100%.
Speaker 2 (35:11):
I always say we're an accountability company.
We have to keep you motivated,engaged and structured.
And on top of it, and what'sthe next step?
We're very action-focused andalso having the visual tools.
It's one thing to have acoaching conversation, but
physically get in there andwhat's the work and what are the
options.
And I love to document thingsvisually so that we can move
(35:31):
through, make progress andfigure out what's next.
So having the tools, having aprocess and knowing what to do,
how to do it, when to do it,where to do it, why to do it
that's what we're here to do ismake that process as easy as
humanly possible and make sureyou don't get in your own way,
like we said earlier.
So, like you said, you couldresearch this on your own, but I
(35:52):
do find that people researchendlessly and so that benefit of
networking when you can hearsomeone describe a job and
really decide how you feel, tosay what aligns or doesn't align
, so you want to understand whatelse decides, just the tools
you can access.
And how do I go access thosetools properly?
That's the other thing.
Right, I'll teach somebody howto research efficiently or how
(36:13):
to use networking strategically,so you may know some of this,
but how do you really take it tothe next level and make sure
you get to your goal right?
You don't want to be guessingand just trying to research or
network without getting anywheretoo right.
So we're here.
We're here to help and, yeah,find support.
You don't have to be alone inthis career journey.
(36:34):
It's such a big part of yourlife, it's so important.
It impacts things, whether wewant to believe it or not.
And have some support therewith you.
You deserve it.
Speaker 1 (36:44):
And you'll be better for it.
So let's talk about how to getthat help.
Rachel, where do they start?
Go to your website, call you.
Where should someone begin?
Speaker 2 (36:53):
Yes, so our website is imwokencom.
We have a ton of free resourceson there.
We always offer a free initial20-minute call so you can always
get to know who are we and whatwould we do.
What are your goals, challenges, timeline, what are our
recommendations.
But, yeah, you can find mewherever I'm very much on
LinkedIn.
You can message me, you canemail If you have questions.
(37:15):
We are literally here to helpwith so many free resources on
our website because we genuinelywant people to have the right
information.
So please find me, reach outand we would love to help you.
Speaker 1 (37:26):
Wonderful.
We'd love for everyone to behelped, and we'll help them find
you too.
We'll put Rachel's contactinformation in our show notes,
so thank you so much for yourtime today.
This is great, a lot of veryhelpful information, and if this
gives some people the spark totake that step, then we've done
our job today, I think.
So, rachel.
Anything else before you wrapup?
Speaker 2 (37:47):
Oh goodness, I don't think so.
I think we've said it all.
But yeah, just if you'relistening, know that people are
there to help.
And again, you don't have to bealone in this.
And yeah, just know there'sways to feel more comfortable.
Often careers are so stressful,but it just means that it's
important to you.
So take it to the.
(38:09):
When you get support throughsomething important, then,
rather than being stressful, youjust make it a focus, you
commit to it with the rightnavigation.
It's never a walk in the park,but you can have support to feel
informed in your approach, andthat is something you can get.
So just know that we're hereand come find me.
Speaker 1 (38:30):
Perfect and we think of it in our world as careers in
.
And if you haven't found it, ifyou're not feeling it, don't
settle, act on it.
It doesn't have to take longand you can't end up in a very
different place and Rachel'shere to help.
So thank you for your timetoday.
Speaker 2 (38:45):
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (38:47):
All right, everyone.
Thanks for listening.
Talk soon.
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