October 5, 2023 • 47 mins
Whether you are a seasoned leader or a budding professional, we've all faced burnout. Are there ways to prevent burnout? Absolutely!
This Finding Career Zen Podcast episode uncovers fresh insights from special guest Josh Hammonds, Ph.D., a highly-respected professional in organizational communications.
Dr. Hammonds introduces listeners to his innovative course, Leading Beyond Burnout - A valuable tool for employees and managers designed to diagnose burnout and reimagine performance. He also describes the four types of burnout, which was a great education for host Pete Newsome (and will be for you too). The discussion emphasizes how aligning the company's mission with the individual's intrinsic values can fuel motivation and job satisfaction.
If you're ready to learn more about identifying and overcoming burnout, you can register for the free course here.
You can also connect with Josh Hammonds and Pete Newsome on LinkedIn!
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Pete Newsome (00:01):
You're listening to the Finding Careers Zen
Podcast.
I'm Pete Newsome, and my guesttoday is Dr.
Josh Hammonds.
Josh, how are you today?
Dr. Josh Hammonds (00:07):
I'm doing very well, Pete.
Thanks so much for having me on.
This is great.
Pete Newsome (00:11):
And we've talked about this for a little while
not too long because we just metover LinkedIn before we met in
person just a couple of weeksago.
So this is great to be able tointerview you live and in person
so soon.
Dr. Josh Hammonds (00:23):
LinkedIn bringing neighbors together that
they didn't know they wereneighbors.
Pete Newsome (00:26):
right, we're both here in the same city, so that's
great, they're coincidences,right, but we didn't waste any
time meeting live and what agreat thing that was, and I'm so
excited to not only have a newperson to give a very
interesting perspective on somethings that are talked about a
lot, but to have a new friendand contact.
(00:47):
It's just how LinkedIn shouldwork, right.
Dr. Josh Hammonds (00:49):
Absolutely yes, bridging the commonalities,
the things that we have sort ofsame energy on and same
interests.
Pete Newsome (00:57):
It's really cool small world stuff, and so your
PhD is in organizationalcommunications.
Dr. Josh Hammonds (01:05):
It is.
It is yes, I received my PhD inorganizational communication
several years ago, back in 2009.
And I've been a workingprofessor, researcher for ever
since then so for several yearsnow and my area of research
really does focus on kind of thehuman communication element
that happens within companies,within organizations, within
(01:27):
leaders and their teams, and soa lot of the coursework and the
research that I do looks at whatdrives employees to want to
work, to want to be engaged, andthen what strategies and
tactics can leaders do toconnect with, inform and
influence the people that youlead towards productivity,
(01:47):
towards life fulfillment intheir careers, in their roles,
towards engagement in general.
So that's most of my work hasfocused on and then done quite a
bit of consulting and evenworking with different companies
on assessing things likeemployee engagement and what
drives employees to want to goto work and their capacity and
(02:08):
things like this.
So definitely the early part ofmy career was focused much more
on the academic and theresearch part, but over the last
six or seven years I've put alot of time and energy working
in a different kind of classroom, in organizations and in
companies which I get so muchfulfillment from as well.
Pete Newsome (02:24):
So it's easy to comprehend everything you just
described, right Easy for you tosay.
Of course, a lot of the wentinto your education to getting
to the level of knowledge youhave now, but incredibly
difficult to implement and whatyour specialty in, I think, is
(02:44):
what businesses everywhere.
So the biggest struggle thatbusinesses have when it comes to
employees specifically.
Would you agree with that?
Dr. Josh Hammonds (02:53):
Yeah, I think so, and I'm biased because I've
been studying the field and thediscipline of communication for
a long time, and so when myworld's collided with business
practices and leadership, thebig chasm that I saw that was
missing was why aren't weteaching people how to
communicate?
Why aren't you using strategiesand communication tactics to
(03:15):
motivate, to influence and toinform the people that you're
leading?
And so it was just a great kindof right place at the right
time where I said I've got allthis communication background of
how indirect versus directmessaging work and what does it
look like to find relationaloverlaps and use those into
one-on-ones, as you also talkabout performance and good kinds
of feedback versus ineffectiveforms of feedback.
(03:37):
And so to me, I think, if youask the average leader that what
is it that you're missing?
What would you need more of?
A lot of people saycommunication, but for me,
studying it for so long, I justsaid, oh, let's connect these
dots in some way.
But yeah, I think it'scertainly needed for sure.
Pete Newsome (03:54):
Why is it so hard for us?
Is it generational?
That's something that I thinkabout a lot, because I'm Gen X
and I usually, for the most part, fall straight in line with the
cliches of Gen X.
The millennials came along alot of changes in the workplace.
I didn't personally necessarilyadapt to those changes as well
(04:19):
as many did.
I'm sort of set in my ways, myperspective not completely
uncommon.
Then we have the boomers, whoare even older than me, even
more set in their ways.
Is that it, or is there muchmore to it?
Has this always been a problem?
Dr. Josh Hammonds (04:36):
Has communication always been a
problem?
I think it's one of thosebehaviors.
We say I want to learn how toplay an instrument you recognize
where you're at on yourcompetencies, and then you say I
need to teach me everything.
Let's start with thefundamentals, then let's build
off this theory and then let'swork towards this so that I can
(04:57):
perform to my best ability inthis instrument.
With communication.
We always have done it, sincethe age of 18 months.
On that, we just always assumethat we've got this.
I know how to talk, I know howto communicate.
I think that's part of it isthat I've been doing it so long.
It would be quite humbling tosay I need communication
(05:18):
training.
No, I don't, you're the problem, I'm not the problem.
That's the first part.
Secondly, I think communicationshows us how different we really
are.
I think a lot of people that Italk to say teach me how to be a
great communicator, take mefrom zero to 100.
Maybe someone's vulnerableenough to do that.
I also have to remind peoplethat sometimes the way that you
(05:41):
communicate makes sense to youand your brain and your culture,
but this person, the way thatthey communicate, might be
completely different.
You'll have a meeting wheresomeone will be a communicator
and you'll have four differentinterpretations of what was said
, how it went down, what theyactually meant.
I think the big epiphany is thatpeople communicate differently
(06:05):
because we see the worlddifferently and we have a
different psychology andperspective about things.
And it's just obvious withcommunication, because this is
what's coming out of how I thinkabout things with my
communication.
So that's why you get these twoships passing in the night,
because people are wireddifferently and I'm going to
match the style of communicationand how I think in my
(06:25):
perspective.
That's why we're notcommunicating well, because
we're different people, and solet's first admit that and then
build off that.
Pete Newsome (06:32):
Is there anything that makes it specifically more
challenge at work than it isperhaps in other aspects of life
?
What we're going to talk abouttoday.
I knew this was going to happen.
We're already going down acompletely different path, so I
do want to bring it back to whatwe're supposed to talk about
today, which is burnout in theworkplace a new course that
(06:55):
you're leading on that.
But before we get into that,let me just ask this why is it
different at work?
Why is what goes so well for usin other aspects of life just
becomes much harder when we'rein the office environment?
Dr. Josh Hammonds (07:11):
Wow, I think, oh, wow, where do I start with
that?
I think that's a good question.
I think with all forms ofcommunication, always there's a
task element and a relationalelement.
So there is the task element,which is I need to be clear with
my information and givedirectives and give, give the
objectives that need to happen,and I'm clear and I understand
what you said.
(07:32):
And so there's that element.
But then there's also what Isometimes don't think about is
there's a there's a relationalor cultural element.
There's, there's, as I'mtalking to you, there's there's
tone, and I'm building a cultureand I'm building a climate and
I'm building on a relationship,as I communicated as well, and
so the best communicators willunderstand that both of these
Are necessary in differentcapacities, and so, from a work
(07:54):
perspective, I have to be veryinformative and very clear, but
then also need to be a greatlistener and and and
understanding and empathic andrelational at the same time, and
if I can, if I can get both ofthose With my team, then I've
got a great, successful team.
But not everybody isnecessarily an ambidextrous
communicator and can handle bothof those right, and so I think,
(08:17):
with work, the greatest leadershave a grasp on both of those
and usually when I do any kindsof training or educating, it's
alright.
Which side do you favor on sothat I can help you with the
other, the non dominant?
Pete Newsome (08:31):
hand, if you will.
So that's really interestingbecause I think you can be.
You can be an effectivecommunicator in certain
circumstances, but a terriblecommunicator in others.
And I, that's been a strugglefor me personally, as we talked
about off camera when, as asalesperson, career salesperson
(08:51):
I've been in a very effectivecommunicator but I know at times
with younger professionals as aleader I have not been, and I
see it in the body language,right, I see it in the, in the
issue.
You just see the reaction andsay this is not resonating,
right.
This message is that I'mdelivering, it's coming out one
way, but it's being received Anentirely different way and I
(09:12):
think that's I hope that'scommon, I think it is.
Dr. Josh Hammonds (09:15):
Sure, oh, absolutely, yeah, absolutely.
And so that, yeah, when I do myassessments, I'm like all right
, where?
Where we out on the spectrum asa communicator so that I know
that?
All right, I no longer need tospend any time talking about
being a concise, clear community.
You've got that down great,when you deliver information,
it's direct, it's clear, it'sassertive, it's concise.
Now let's focus on this right,and then and other people have
(09:37):
to I have to flip flop and teachthem being direct, how to be
direct, how to be assertive.
You've got the relationalelement down.
Everybody loves you as a boss,as a leader, but every but
people are confused and they'renot hitting their numbers and
the deadlines are off.
Pete Newsome (09:51):
But Do you think that?
So there's a responsibility forthe person doing the speaking
and there's some level ofresponsibility that has to lie
with the person who's doing thelistening, right, certainly?
Do you think that has been achange?
Because, over the over theyears, where messages you know
(10:11):
we live in a different time thatexisted 2030 years ago.
Right, the short attentionspans, information comes in so
quickly, so much of it, I mean.
I feel that my day is so muchshorter today, even though I may
work longer hours than it was20 years ago.
It's a struggle, and so now wehave people who are
(10:32):
professionals in the workworkforce.
No one intends to be a badcommunicator, right?
So we know that.
But do you think that the waymessages are received today are
different than how they werereceived 2030 years ago?
Dr. Josh Hammonds (10:45):
I do, and I'll hit on just two things you
said.
I think the first thing is yeah, we've got so many more
channels coming at us at once,right, did you?
Did you check my message?
Did you slack it?
Did you text it?
Did you email it?
Is that a video I'm supposed towatch?
Remind me, when you say mymessage, to what channel is this
coming at me?
And so I guess I think I think,with with the abundance of
channels, now we have someconfusion on clarity.
(11:07):
Where's back in the day?
It was like we said it in theMonday meeting.
That was the only time you sawme and that's where you got that
message, versus all thesedifferent Mediums that happen.
So there's a clarity issuethere.
But I think, secondly, as thework life boundaries continue to
a road and I don't think it'sgoing anywhere, I think it's
going to continue being moreintegrated, more and more and
more right, you're checking onyour phone after dinner and
(11:29):
things like this.
As those boundaries are road,people are wanting more from
their organizations, and so ifI'm spending more frequent,
intermittent, frequent timeswith my team on a project, you
know we're hitting a deadline,so we've got a big sprint coming
up, so we spent so many hourstogether that your work then
does become part of yourcommunity, and there's a lot of
(11:50):
people that do Long for or wanta culture or a climate that they
can feel comfortable in, feelsafe in, be creative with right,
because so much of our work iswrapped up Into our identity.
If you're successful work andyou get to use your strengths at
work, that feels good, that'spart of who you are, and so then
(12:11):
I also then want thecommunication to be supportive
in that way, and I want feedbackregularly, and I want you to
tell me what I'm doing great,just as much as what I probably
need to work on.
So I think the demand of theleader, who, who maybe has been
leading teams for the pastthirty, forty years, is going
what's in the water?
What's changed?
What's changed is people arewanting more from their teams,
in their organizations, more sothan they ever have, because
(12:34):
they're spending so much moretime, and it's it's it's
blending more into their actual,real lives as well.
Pete Newsome (12:39):
It.
What has been working from homecertainly hasn't done anything
to lessen that, it's onlyexacerbated it.
And finding that separation ishard, which is a really good
segue into what I told you.
The purpose of today would beasked you to speak about which
is your new, your new course onburnout, and you is what you
(13:00):
shared with me.
It's you're leading it from twodifferent perspectives, you're
teaching it from two differentperspectives.
How you can help leaders bebetter at controlling that
something that I certainly needcould use some help with but
also how individuals and that'swhat we're going to focus on
today can handle it, manage itfor themselves, because I think,
(13:23):
at some level, we all have totake responsibility for our own
actions, our own perspective onthings.
I mean you and I.
I think the day we met, weended up talking a little bit
about stoicism and how I saysomething is one thing, how you
receive it, that's on you, right, how that makes you feel.
(13:44):
And so burnout is it?
What is it?
Let's start there, becausewe're talking about we want to
help people with burnout.
I don't want people to feelburned out.
I suspect I make them feelburned out, whether I intend to
or not.
Right, right.
Dr. Josh Hammonds (13:59):
I think you know.
And so it's a great questionwhat is burnout?
I think that question is whatstarted my entire quest several
months ago, about eight monthsago really started, and dive
deep into it, because we justuse that term all the time.
I'm so burnout.
You worked on a project for anhour and you'll just get up from
it and go, oh, I'm burnout, Igotta go take a walk, it's like.
And so when you use that wordalways, then it doesn't mean
(14:22):
anything.
It just means you're tired, itjust means you're a little bit
stressed.
And so what does that wordactually mean?
And so I delve deep into theresearch and we see this in the
literature for the first timeabout 1982, and Christina
Maslach and her team were doinglots of research on physician
burnout and different kinds ofworkplace burnout, and she was
able to really come to a nicedefinition which I really like.
(14:43):
And then I took another stepfurther.
But she says and I wanna getthis right the term burnout is a
syndrome involving experiencesof emotional exhaustion,
depersonalization and thenreduced self accomplishment
while it works.
So she combines this sort oflarge, nebulous idea that if
you're really burned out, you'reexperiencing these sort of
(15:05):
symptoms.
And so I took that next stepfurther and looked at several
more studies and then conductedmy own study, and I found out
that there's really about fourdifferent types or four
different dimensions of burnout.
And so there are the physicalburnout cases where I have been
working back to back meetings 16hour days for about a week.
I am physically just burnoutand I need rest and I gotta take
(15:27):
a break.
And so the study that Ipublished, that Microsoft did
back right after the pandemicright, showed that individuals
who took just even a 10 minutebreak in between their back to
back meetings showed a massivereduction in the stress version
brainwaves that were emitted.
And so if you could just restfor that moment, go take a walk
(15:48):
and come back, you'll see areset in your brainwave stress
activity, and so that is a thing.
Physical burnout, however, justbecause you're physically
exhausted does not necessarilymean that you are or
experiencing workplace burnout,and so I wanted to go a little
bit deeper into that, and so thesecond one that I found was
(16:09):
this idea of depersonalizationor mental burnout, and that's
the one we saw really crop upduring the pandemic.
And depersonalization or mentalburnout says that, like my mind
is no longer at work, I ammentally checked out, and so
I've called this sort of thepurpose problem that you no
(16:30):
longer see a meaning or purposein the work that you're doing.
And we saw so many peopleduring the Great Resignation not
only leave their jobs, theyleft their industries.
You had teachers becoming techsales people, right, and so you
saw everybody just switchingbecause they woke up one day and
say is this what I want to do?
Does this matter anymore?
(16:50):
I no longer see myself as anaccountant.
I don't know why I'm anaccountant.
Why did I even pick this and soand a global pandemic can
certainly rattle a few cages toask big questions, certainly
like why am I doing this?
What am I doing?
Right?
But mental burnout is that I'velost the meaning, and so
diagnosing that there'sdifferent treatments for that
(17:13):
cause than there would be that,hey, you just need to take a
break.
I love my job, but you'reworking 16 hour days, you got to
rest, you take two days off anddo not answer your phone at all
, right, so those are differenttreatments for that.
And then the third one, which Ithink maybe is the most
problematic this is attitudeburnout.
And attitude burnout reallystarts to creep up when you
(17:34):
notice cynical attitudes and soyou no longer are.
You know you've got a quicktongue at work, you've got a
couple of toxic sidebarconversations that are happening
, and really the root of this isyou have not felt recognized or
valued in a long time.
Okay, and recognition can comeintrinsically and extrinsically
(17:57):
right.
It could be that I've notgotten a raise or a pay increase
in years and I have beenbusting my butt.
Right Could be that kind ofvalue, but it also could be
nobody has really even spoken tome about how valuable I am, or
even recognized me publicly orin front of my team on how much
I do here, and so when thatstarts to happen, you start
(18:18):
getting really cynical.
Why am I here?
Right, and so I am.
I'm in a bad place, I am sayingthings that I shouldn't, I'm
feeling things that I shouldn't,and so that's an attitude
burnout.
That, to me, is the yellow, ifnot orange, flag that if you
don't start having conversationswith your leadership or doing
some real, either go out and getsome coaching or talking to
(18:40):
somebody through this it mightbe time for you to hit eject,
because that one is tough, tosort of turn around and do it.
And then the last one.
The fourth type of burnout isthis idea of skill burnout, and
skill burnout says that I don'tfeel like I have the resources
or the tools or the skills toaccomplish what I used to be
(19:01):
able to accomplish.
And that starts happening whenthe tech evolution has increased
, and so everything from machinelearning to AI, all of these
new integrations.
So if you've been at your jobfor 20, 30 years, or if you're
in leadership, and all of asudden the tools are
accelerating at a pace that isquicker than what you're picking
(19:23):
up on or your ability to usethem, you might feel inadequate,
and so that's a skill burnoutsystem.
And again, that's a differenttreatment.
That's a.
I need to take a week off, godo a professional development
course in AI, learn what chat,gpt is, how to use it for a
company, and I'll be backbecause I'm feeling inadequate
at my own abilities at this timeand so, again, so that's a long
(19:45):
way of answering your question,but I do see it as these four
primary buckets that once you'rediagnosed with, like okay, my
issue is attitude burnout.
You're right, that's exactlywhat it is.
I still have lots of meaningand purpose.
I'm not exhausted, I just don'tfeel appreciated and that's why
I'm burnt out, and that's whythat's what's feeling this.
So each time you have a causeto these burnouts, there's a
(20:09):
different treatment that youshould be taking.
Pete Newsome (20:11):
So it sounds like step one is to identify the
problem, Absolutely Likeanything.
So on the surface of skill,burnout to me doesn't sound like
the same category as the otherthree.
When we're calling it burnoutversus some better way of saying
we're being left behind rightor feeling inadequate, perhaps.
Dr. Josh Hammonds (20:33):
It is, it is.
But if, let's say, we decidedto switch over to a whole new
platform to do the job you'vebeen doing for 10 years, we've
got a whole new platform andthere's a training seminar.
They're coming in and we'regonna do a huge change over and
make sure you take the onlineclasses and then you need to be
ready by Monday morning to dothat.
Your learning curve dependingon where, how set you are, you
(20:57):
could be very frustrated forthose first three or four months
during that change that you'regoing.
I don't know if I wanna learnsomething new, I don't know if I
can learn something new and Icannot catch up and I am burnt
out trying to stay ahead of thisevolution of curve.
But you're right, it is adifferent kind of burnout.
It doesn't involve the attitudeor necessarily even the meaning
(21:19):
or purpose.
You're just exhausted trying tolearn a new skill.
Pete Newsome (21:23):
But that explanation puts it in a really
good perspective and it makesmore sense to me Hearing it that
way, because your example of AIwas perfect for that.
Where, here we are with thisthing going at a million miles
an hour, the train is not onlyout of the station, it's well
down the tracks.
At this point, and if you'vebeen in your role for a long
(21:46):
time or it worked really hard toget to a point, I mean, I'm
watching some college graduatescome out now.
They've just spent four yearsgetting a degree in something
that has almost been renderedmoot by some of the new
technology that's out, and youhave that on one spectrum.
The other end of the spectrumare people who've been in their
profession a long time who arenow being told to your point.
(22:08):
You have to relearn how to doeverything.
Yeah the payroll system.
Dr. Josh Hammonds (22:14):
Good luck, department of Five.
Yeah, I mean, and that happensright Throughout everyone's
career.
Pete Newsome (22:20):
I mean, the technology I use every day
didn't exist when I came out ofcollege.
Needless to say, some of thetechnology I use didn't exist
when we came into 2023.
So it's a constant thing and itdoes.
I get it right.
I get that feeling.
I don't, yeah.
But let me ask you so whenyou're teaching leaders?
Dr. Josh Hammonds (22:44):
Yeah.
Pete Newsome (22:45):
Is it?
Do you give?
Is the guidance to anticipateeach of these things, know what
signs and symptoms to look forand then how to deal with it.
But back to identificationbeing the first step, I think.
Do you plant that?
Is it anticipation or is itreaction that you try to teach?
Dr. Josh Hammonds (23:08):
I think the best one is to have a proactive
right.
So maybe you're leading a teamand you've been thinking they
might be burnt out, but you'renot sure if it is burnout or if
it's a different kind of burnout.
Right, just explaining thesedifferent styles, you'll see the
light bulbs go off, go, you'reright, this one's cynical, but
this one no longer finds purposein it Now, oh, that makes sense
(23:29):
, and so just giving it acategory, giving it a name,
talking about the symptoms,talking about the different
treatment, can help a leadersort of be a little bit
proactive so that when they seethese signs coming right, it
doesn't get to that point.
Right, if you're at a point ofcynicism, something broke way
over here before you know youdidn't wake up with a cynical
(23:50):
attitude, ready to be toxic atevery water cooler conversation
that no one wakes up doing that.
There were signs before thereand it might have been physical
exhaustion.
I worked, you know, for twomonths on this project and no
one said anything and no onegave me the recognition that I
deserved.
Right, and so getting ahead ofthat is always going to be the
(24:12):
best plan if I'm leading a team.
Pete Newsome (24:15):
So of the fourth, one of them is physical right.
That is not something that wecan control.
The other three to what degreeare they self-imposed?
Dr. Josh Hammonds (24:29):
Yeah, I think that's a great question.
So what if I am leading a teamand this team no longer finds
meaning or purpose in their role?
So now, as a leader, right, amI seriously responsible for
talking my accountant intoseeing the purpose and the
meaning of their role Likethat's your issue?
If you no longer see themeaning, that's your issue and
(24:50):
so there's a part of that that,yes, it's on that person, but,
as their leader, could you helpconnect those dots right?
And so one of the ways that wedo this or I talk about doing
this the control that you mighthave, the only actionable thing
that you might have, is say,let's sit down and ask, let's
have a one-on-one with thepeople that I'm leading and say
let's see what your role is andmake sure that your role is very
(25:12):
clear, Because sometimes youknow scope creep happens and
you're no longer doingaccounting, you're doing 17
other things.
You love accounting, you findgreat meaning in accounting.
It's the 48 other things thatI've now acquired over the past
six months because of hybridwork, because of all these sorts
of things.
So having that role clarityconversation could bring it back
(25:33):
in.
Maybe they do love accounting,they're just doing so much.
That isn't accounting right.
So having that conversation andthen also having conversations
about like look, here is thepurpose, the vision and the
mission of this company.
This is why you joined us.
This is what makes us different.
Let me remind you of that andsee if that brings any more
(25:54):
clarity and things like that aswell.
And so those are two things youcan do as a leader.
But you're right ultimately, ifsomebody wakes up and says I
don't want to be this anymore,and then you can, I think a good
leader should help thetransition into even if that's
another company, right?
Great leaders don't just careabout their own organization,
(26:14):
but hopefully they care for thegrowth and development of people
, and that's why they're in thatbusiness people leadership.
Pete Newsome (26:19):
That makes complete sense, as is the
individual who experiences this,maybe not knowing what words to
put to it, but we feel it right, we all know what Dredd feels
like.
Oh yeah, we all know thatfeeling.
I mean I've talked about itmany times over the years being
in the staffing industry.
Where the second you decideyou're going to quit right, I
(26:39):
mean we've put the quiet.
Quitting has been talked aboutso much.
That's a little bit differentto me, but when you're checked
out and you know there's nocoming back from it every day,
every minute feels like torturefrom that moment forward.
So we know it, when we feel it,even if we can't put words and
(26:59):
phrases attached to it.
How much control does theindividual really have over
being in?
Is there a way to repair thesituation, generally speaking,
or, when that exists, it's timeto leave right, like if you're
(27:22):
in this accountant scenario.
Yes, you like doing accounting.
Times have changed.
Now we're working at home.
Now we've had to scale back.
The business has evolved.
This is normal, this is stuffthat happens.
But do we need to throw thebaby out with the bath water,
right?
Or is part of it?
Hey, you know what.
I need to isolate the things Idon't like.
(27:44):
I need to put them in a silo,identify them for what they are
and just deal with it.
Dr. Josh Hammonds (27:52):
I think it's always worth having a
conversation with your leader,with your manager, before you
bounce because you don't knowwhat opportunities could be
brewing up.
And so having a conversationI've got this questionnaire
guideline is a bore out orburnout right, and so I
encourage people to take thisquestionnaire not only to do a
self-reflexive with themself,but then take that with their
(28:12):
manager.
Are there opportunities thatexist, task forces, strategy
sessions that I could beinvolved in or get involved in
that would ignite more passionand interest in me?
So chances are.
If you've been there for awhile, you know what you like
and you know what you don't like.
And so having that conversationI've worked with tech companies
(28:33):
before where somebody who was insales just very much didn't see
that anymore, but had a passionfor product and creativity, and
so they kept grafting this way,this way, until they finally
said let's make the lateral move, we're hiring people in product
.
Why don't we make this move?
You already know the company,we already know you're a
diligent worker.
And so having that conversationwith your manager saying here's
(28:55):
what I'm passionate about,these are the strengths that I
would like to be challenged onand see if I can't increase my
performance in that way Arethere opportunities and or do
you see opportunities in thenear future?
Maybe not today, but are thereopenings?
And then having thatconversation and then your
manager can go?
Absolutely not, that will neverhappen for you.
This is why we hired you, right?
(29:16):
And then you can go shoppingand amicably exit and find out
what that is.
But having that conversationwith manager I mean companies
are changing so much and theskills required and the
competencies required are alwaysshifting and changing.
So you know, the bottom line isknow yourself well enough to
know what the things that you do, that you like to do, and bring
(29:38):
that to your manager just tosee if there are opportunities.
Pete Newsome (29:40):
Well, and problems can't be fixed unless they've
been identified, and that'ssomething that I it's easier
said than done.
I, where I encourage everyone,talk to your manager, just like
you said, share that concern, doit in the right way at the
right time.
Right, do it professionally,but don't dwell on it and don't
(30:02):
leave what could otherwise be agood situation that was a good
situation could be again becauseyou chose that path of leaving
versus trying to do somethingabout it.
Dr. Josh Hammonds (30:13):
Right, because we know the grass isn't
necessarily greener and in manycases it's most definitely not I
wish I had the stat, but thenumber of people that left
during the Great Resonation itwas a large portion of people
went, oops, you know.
And so it's grass yeah, grassis greener.
Pete Newsome (30:28):
Well, and that scenario has created a mess, for
lack of a better way to put itthat we're still dealing with
right now, because the pendulumis making some pretty big swings
, or has been over the lastcouple of years, and there's a
lot of really talented folkscaught on the wrong side of that
right now.
Where they made a move, it wasin their interest to do it and
(30:52):
it was short term right.
Some of the biggest youmentioned tech companies some of
the biggest tech companieshired a lot of people, let a lot
of people go.
Now they're hiring some of themback.
I mean, it's you have to takeresponsibility for your own
success and wellbeing in all ofthis to some degree, or I would
say, to the most significantdegree.
Do you support that?
Dr. Josh Hammonds (31:14):
Yeah, absolutely yeah.
Leaders should always beproactive in developing their
teams, always right, that's whatI'm always going to put the
onerous of responsibility onleadership.
That being said, if I'm talkingto employees, individual
contributors take charge of yourjourney.
You should have an in depth,intimate view of what you are
(31:37):
strong at, what you are great at, what are some things that you
need to grow in and know thatabout yourself.
Communicate that to yourleaders and your managers as
soon as you possibly can, or assoon as it comes into your view,
so that you can get a growthplan together.
Pete Newsome (31:52):
You know it because you've studied it right.
I know it because I've seen itplay out both as an employee and
an employer.
Why is it so hard to do?
Why is it so hard forindividuals to stop and have
those conversations?
Dr. Josh Hammonds (32:06):
There's no time.
There's never time to havethose conversations.
Yeah, I think the one on one, ameaningful, productive one on
one, is the heart and soul ofany organization.
And yeah, I've dealt a lot withtech companies and a lot of
them were remote.
So if you didn't have those,you didn't have anything.
But I think we rely so heavilyon this return to office
movement.
(32:26):
Right, If everybody's in theoffice together, we all learn
through osmosis and you justpick up things along the way and
I can see you and there'saccountability.
Yeah, all that's good, allthat's great, but if you're not
having a one on one for 40minutes every other week, where
the first eight to 10, how areyou really doing?
What's frustrating you the most?
What blockers are preventingyou from doing your job in the
(32:49):
best way possible, and whatresources do you need from me?
If you're not framing the firsteight minutes in that way and
then going through more of asystematic checking off goals,
what you still need to do, whatare some tasks giving some
feedback, I don't know how youcould possibly be growing your
people if you're not engaging inthose one on ones.
Pete Newsome (33:07):
From.
As a communication expert, doyou think that those are Harder
to execute on?
Perhaps right, maybe lessimpactful is a better way to
phrase it virtually versus beingin person.
Do we lose something by doingthat over Zoom?
Dr. Josh Hammonds (33:26):
Yeah, we could dissect that for a while.
Sure, right, and anytime you gofrom a 3D to a 2D, you're gonna
lose something on that.
But I've heard of people justdoing turning off the cameras
and just checking boxes andthings like this.
If you're gonna use aone-on-one just to check the
boxes, did you do this, did youdo this?
Don't forget that.
Don't forget that.
(33:47):
See you next week.
If you're just doing that andyou're not having future
conversations about, like, allright, what are some ways we can
grow you?
What are some new things wecould do?
What are some things we couldadd, challenge you.
If you're not doing that, thenZoom or face-to-face, it doesn't
really matter.
But if you are engaging inthose more kind of real
conversations, I think Zoomworks.
(34:09):
I've seen it work really well.
So it's more aboutintentionality than it is about
the medium.
I think so.
Pete Newsome (34:14):
I think with Zoom, it probably in many cases it
leads to being distracted,Unless you're recording like
this right Now.
We're engaged at this pointbecause we're sensitive to the
camera being on.
But when I'm in Zoom meetings,when I would go to meetings and
sit around the table withsomeone, I wasn't looking at my
(34:36):
phone, I wasn't glancing off.
I have multiple screens outsideof my peripheral vision.
I know I do that duringmeetings I'm not as engaged.
So I think, to your point, youhave to really be conscious of
that to make it effective.
Dr. Josh Hammonds (34:53):
Yeah, I mean meetings.
You can get by with probablydoing three or four things at
the same time while the meetingis happening.
But a one-on-one I would thinkyeah, if I'm asking you a direct
, open-ended question about whatexcited you this week, if
anything, right, I would thinkhold on what.
I would think it'd be obviousif I was quite distracted on a
question that poignant.
Pete Newsome (35:14):
Well, I asked my wife.
She knows she will tell you.
When I appear to be you go inzombie mode where I'm not
actually retaining anythingyou're saying right now because
I'm not engaged.
So that, to your point, Icompletely get that.
I just think it's easier to do,it's easier to fall into that
mode when you're virtual andthat's something to guard
(35:36):
against.
So, with burnout in this course, who should consider taking it?
And then what are they going toget from it?
It's great, yeah.
Dr. Josh Hammonds (35:47):
So two groups .
First of all, if you are burntout and you need some clarity on
which burnout it is and whatmethod you should take to your
manager, your therapist, yourspouse, your best friend,
whatever question guides, Ithink that's the first person
that I'm looking for.
I'm looking to help those whoare stuck and they don't know
how to get out of this right,and the answer may be it's time
(36:09):
to move on.
The answer may be time to havea hard conversation with
management.
The answer may be some soulsearching and take a week off.
But that's the firstdemographic.
The second one is I hear a lotfrom CHROs, people, leaders,
people, ops that are going whatdo we do?
I don't even know where tobegin.
It's gotten so bad and so toxicand or everybody's just going
(36:31):
through the motions.
Hell, is there a treatment outthere somewhere?
So maybe you're notexperiencing it, but you'll get
some tools as well.
So, from the course, that'swhat you can expect.
There's gonna be four majorsessions.
The first session is gonna lookat I will give you a diagnostic
, a survey to use for you andyour teams, so that we can get
some quantitative scores onwhat's the highest, what's the
(36:53):
thing that we go okay, well,it's not physical burnout, great
, good, let's move on, we cancheck that off the list.
And so you'll get some scores,things like this Each session
will have a homework, anactivity, right.
So the second session so afteryou figure out what burnout you
have, the second session isgonna really dive into this
purpose problem.
Did you lose your meaning orare you just adding things to
(37:14):
your plate and it's cloudingyour role, right?
And so we're gonna have a soulsearching kind of activity where
, similar to what we weretalking about, the icky guy of
this idea of, like, what is thething that you love?
What is the thing that mattersthe most to you?
What's the thing the worldneeds?
And so there's gonna be somesoul searching in that session.
Then the third session is gonnabe all about people, and has
(37:37):
your team been breaking you ormaking you?
And so if you are developingattitude and will burnout, we'll
look at what's the culture looklike in your team, what's the
feedback ratio, right?
And so if you're a leader, thisshould be kind of an awakening
going uh-oh, my team is burntout.
In this way, I need to be moreintentional about how I get
(37:59):
feedback.
I need to be more intentionalabout how I'm creating a
psychologically safe space thatwe can air our grievances, we
can be creative with each other,we're not fearing ramifications
, right, and things like this.
Because if your team is ahealthy, supportive team, you
can have massive physicalexhaustion and demands all over
(38:21):
the place, but there is acomfort and a solace in your
team and it can be a buffer andcreate resilience with you.
So your microcosm of your teamis going to have as much of a
buffer against any kind ofburnout as anything else, and so
we'll look at that.
And then the fourth one is thiskind of performance.
We'll look at performance asre-imagined, and so how are you
(38:43):
being assessed on yourperformance as a leader?
Or how are you assessing yourteam?
And then how are you beingassessed?
And so we'll look at ways thatwe can track goals and
performance and bring in ourstrengths in ways that maybe
we've not really assessed orlooked at before, and so we'll
really kind of look at that kindof performance review aspect.
And so each session liveinteractive for an hour.
(39:04):
There's going to be peoplechatting about their lives,
we'll have a framework, I'llpresent some research and then
they'll have an action to takeback to their teams or to take
back if they're an individualcontributor, they can take back
just personally to fill out andthings like this.
But they're going to have toolsthat when they're done with the
course, if they are leading ateam that's burned out, they can
take their whole team throughall of the materials that I give
(39:26):
them and hopefully get to thebottom of some of this and maybe
remedy some of the burnout.
Pete Newsome (39:30):
That's really powerful, and I say that from a
very personal perspective assomeone who has struggled as a
leader with these things.
So that's I confess that to youearly on after we met, and
that's it's not by lack of, fromlack of desire, it's not being
armed with those tools that youjust described.
(39:50):
It's something one of thereasons I'm so happy to connect
with you to try to absorb someof this knowledge and to put it
into practice, because havingidentified the problem long go
doesn't mean I can solve itright.
So while that may be the firststep, there has to be follow-up
steps or no progress is made.
(40:11):
Right, exactly.
Dr. Josh Hammonds (40:13):
Exactly.
Yeah, it's comforting knowing.
Okay, this is what I have.
Now what?
Pete Newsome (40:17):
Right and you said it.
You said it.
There's so many companies rightnow.
I have a peer group I will gointo further detail about that
because this isn't gonna be thebest statement that is that I
communicate with regularly andleaders of organizations and
they are experiencing this.
We're in different markets, wedifferent sized companies in the
(40:39):
office, out of the office, verydiverse group, but everyone,
almost with that exception, isstruggling with how do we get
them as leaders, how do we?
Everyone wants happy employees,right, we want productive,
happy, motivated, engagedemployees, but it's much, much
(41:01):
easier said than done.
Dr. Josh Hammonds (41:03):
Oh yeah, oh yes yeah.
Pete Newsome (41:05):
So we need your course.
Dr. Josh Hammonds (41:06):
Yeah.
Pete Newsome (41:08):
We'll put the link in the show notes so you can
sign up, of course.
Let me have one more question,josh, and I'll let y'all hook
today, because I already havelike four or five more things I
want to interview you about on adifferent day.
Dr. Josh Hammonds (41:20):
That sounds great.
Pete Newsome (41:21):
What surprised you the most through this research
of putting this course together?
Dr. Josh Hammonds (41:28):
Oh wow, I think that's good.
Gosh, that's a great question.
Pete Newsome (41:34):
Or that someone from the outside looking in
would be surprised with.
I don't want you to give awayany secrets.
Maybe we have to take thecourse to find out, but I'm
curious as to something thatsurprised even you, given all
your background.
Dr. Josh Hammonds (41:49):
Yeah, I think to me.
I think the biggest thing thatsurprises me is how much meaning
matters to how engaged I am atwork.
And again, like we talked aboutbefore, is this a generational
thing?
Has it caught on?
But you could look at somebody.
This is why nonprofits existPeople taking a third of the
(42:10):
income that they could.
But at the end of the day, thismatters so much to me and this
is why I'm doing it, and so Ithink the last numbers I
crunched was a large data set,but I think it's 68% of why
you're engaged at work can beattributed to the meaning that
you give.
And then the other thing iseveryone's meaning is
individualized.
So if feeding the world and youjoin this organization and
(42:34):
you're feeding the world andyou're part of this movement and
that matters to you, that'sgreat, but that might not matter
to somebody else.
And so how important it is fora company to be very transparent
about this is our purpose, thisis our mission.
If that aligns with somethingthat you already have intrinsic
in you, that drives you as well,let's connect, let's work
together, let's align in ourmission and our meaning together
(42:57):
, and so I think that's such animportant part.
So, as a recruiter somebody'sbeen in the recruiting business
for a while finding thatalignment from the get go is
important, and then so, when itteeters or when it falters,
getting them back on.
This is why we're doing this.
Remember, this is why we arehere.
This is why we're doing this.
So, but again, that could bedifferent for everybody.
For some people it could be.
(43:18):
I want to make a lot of moneyand build a legacy for me and my
family and my extended familyand then provide from there.
Like, each meaning is no noblerthan someone else's meaning,
and so finding everybody'smeaning and getting that to
align is going to work itselfout.
That drives so much of whyyou're engaged to work.
(43:39):
All these other parts that wetalked about, too, they matter
as well, but that's the big one.
Pete Newsome (43:45):
And we don't do enough of that in the recruiting
process as a whole.
So I'm really glad you broughtthat up.
It means a lot to me, becauseour internal recruiting process
is to first understand thecandidate's objectives before we
tell them about the specificjob we're recruiting them for.
So while their resume is thereason for the initial phone
(44:08):
call because it is skill setsmatched up, right Background,
experience, whatever it might beJust like a good fit on paper,
that's just the cover of thebook.
You have to open the book tounderstand what it's about,
right, and so we seek tounderstand what the candidate's
motives, driver's, objectivesare prior to telling them
(44:29):
anything about the job, becauseonce we start speaking of those
details, it skews the rest ofthe conversation.
And so we want that true answerbecause, to the point you just
made, very well, if those thingsaren't aligned, it's not going
to work right.
If you and we'll just takesomething obvious like working
from home, now some people areputting out at the top of their
(44:51):
priority list now, right, not athing you saw much of four years
ago.
Now very common People arequitting jobs they otherwise
loved because of that veryreason.
So you better get thoserelevant things on the table.
And then even in your accountscenario, which I find
interesting, right, because youthink of an account, you think
boring job, look at it, numbersall day.
(45:11):
Well, there's some accountantsout there who say I want to make
as much money as I can for thetime I spend working.
Right, that's one thing.
Others, they want the meaningof their organization to align
with their interests and whatthey place value.
Dr. Josh Hammonds (45:26):
Yes, I worked with an individual several
months ago and her passion inlife was taking disorganized
data and creating columns for it, like it gave her the most
satisfaction, and so there are.
Meaning can be very differentfor very different people.
Pete Newsome (45:43):
Yeah Well, we're going to talk more about all
this, because it's not ajudgment of one in trying to
decide which one is better thanthe other, but it is necessary
to identify what the companyoffers in that particular regard
, whatever that might be, andthen what the employee needs in
(46:07):
order to avoid being burned out.
Because how unfortunate is itgoing to a situation where the
outcome is inevitably negativebecause of factors no individual
can control right, and thathappens a lot, a lot.
So, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
This is a good road to go down.
(46:27):
We're going to explore it later, but for now let's focus on
making sure everyone knows howto find your course.
We're going to be on burnoutfor weeks, an hour a week.
When does it start?
Dr. Josh Hammonds (46:36):
Yep, october 23rd, monday.
All right, so we'll share allthat.
If you miss a session they'llall be recorded, but yeah, and
then of course you get monthlong coaching, and so I'm there
asynchronously.
You've got burnout questionsthat are very specific.
I am there to answer, as best Ican, what the research says and
what my experience tells, andso, yeah, well, I can't imagine
(46:58):
there's someone who's better forthe times that we're at, whose
knowledge experience.
Pete Newsome (47:03):
What you know, Josh, is what we desperately
need right now to enjoy our daysmore right, To get more
fulfillment out of it and that'sreally what it's all about so
then we can enjoy life as awhole.
So thank you for your time,Thank you for what you're doing,
and I look forward to hearing alot more from you.
Dr. Josh Hammonds (47:21):
Yeah, absolutely.
Thanks so much for having me on, pete.
Always great chatting with youand I'm excited about further
conversations down the road.
Pete Newsome (47:27):
Yes, indeed, all right, everyone.
Thanks for listening.
Have a great rest of the day.
You're listening to the Finding Careers Zen
Podcast.
I'm Pete Newsome, and my guesttoday is Dr.
Josh Hammonds.
Josh, how are you today?
Dr. Josh Hammonds (00:07):
I'm doing very well, Pete.
Thanks so much for having me on.
This is great.
Pete Newsome (00:11):
And we've talked about this for a little while
not too long because we just metover LinkedIn before we met in
person just a couple of weeksago.
So this is great to be able tointerview you live and in person
so soon.
Dr. Josh Hammonds (00:23):
LinkedIn bringing neighbors together that
they didn't know they wereneighbors.
Pete Newsome (00:26):
right, we're both here in the same city, so that's
great, they're coincidences,right, but we didn't waste any
time meeting live and what agreat thing that was, and I'm so
excited to not only have a newperson to give a very
interesting perspective on somethings that are talked about a
lot, but to have a new friendand contact.
(00:47):
It's just how LinkedIn shouldwork, right.
Dr. Josh Hammonds (00:49):
Absolutely yes, bridging the commonalities,
the things that we have sort ofsame energy on and same
interests.
Pete Newsome (00:57):
It's really cool small world stuff, and so your
PhD is in organizationalcommunications.
Dr. Josh Hammonds (01:05):
It is.
It is yes, I received my PhD inorganizational communication
several years ago, back in 2009.
And I've been a workingprofessor, researcher for ever
since then so for several yearsnow and my area of research
really does focus on kind of thehuman communication element
that happens within companies,within organizations, within
(01:27):
leaders and their teams, and soa lot of the coursework and the
research that I do looks at whatdrives employees to want to
work, to want to be engaged, andthen what strategies and
tactics can leaders do toconnect with, inform and
influence the people that youlead towards productivity,
(01:47):
towards life fulfillment intheir careers, in their roles,
towards engagement in general.
So that's most of my work hasfocused on and then done quite a
bit of consulting and evenworking with different companies
on assessing things likeemployee engagement and what
drives employees to want to goto work and their capacity and
(02:08):
things like this.
So definitely the early part ofmy career was focused much more
on the academic and theresearch part, but over the last
six or seven years I've put alot of time and energy working
in a different kind of classroom, in organizations and in
companies which I get so muchfulfillment from as well.
Pete Newsome (02:24):
So it's easy to comprehend everything you just
described, right Easy for you tosay.
Of course, a lot of the wentinto your education to getting
to the level of knowledge youhave now, but incredibly
difficult to implement and whatyour specialty in, I think, is
(02:44):
what businesses everywhere.
So the biggest struggle thatbusinesses have when it comes to
employees specifically.
Would you agree with that?
Dr. Josh Hammonds (02:53):
Yeah, I think so, and I'm biased because I've
been studying the field and thediscipline of communication for
a long time, and so when myworld's collided with business
practices and leadership, thebig chasm that I saw that was
missing was why aren't weteaching people how to
communicate?
Why aren't you using strategiesand communication tactics to
(03:15):
motivate, to influence and toinform the people that you're
leading?
And so it was just a great kindof right place at the right
time where I said I've got allthis communication background of
how indirect versus directmessaging work and what does it
look like to find relationaloverlaps and use those into
one-on-ones, as you also talkabout performance and good kinds
of feedback versus ineffectiveforms of feedback.
(03:37):
And so to me, I think, if youask the average leader that what
is it that you're missing?
What would you need more of?
A lot of people saycommunication, but for me,
studying it for so long, I justsaid, oh, let's connect these
dots in some way.
But yeah, I think it'scertainly needed for sure.
Pete Newsome (03:54):
Why is it so hard for us?
Is it generational?
That's something that I thinkabout a lot, because I'm Gen X
and I usually, for the most part, fall straight in line with the
cliches of Gen X.
The millennials came along alot of changes in the workplace.
I didn't personally necessarilyadapt to those changes as well
(04:19):
as many did.
I'm sort of set in my ways, myperspective not completely
uncommon.
Then we have the boomers, whoare even older than me, even
more set in their ways.
Is that it, or is there muchmore to it?
Has this always been a problem?
Dr. Josh Hammonds (04:36):
Has communication always been a
problem?
I think it's one of thosebehaviors.
We say I want to learn how toplay an instrument you recognize
where you're at on yourcompetencies, and then you say I
need to teach me everything.
Let's start with thefundamentals, then let's build
off this theory and then let'swork towards this so that I can
(04:57):
perform to my best ability inthis instrument.
With communication.
We always have done it, sincethe age of 18 months.
On that, we just always assumethat we've got this.
I know how to talk, I know howto communicate.
I think that's part of it isthat I've been doing it so long.
It would be quite humbling tosay I need communication
(05:18):
training.
No, I don't, you're the problem, I'm not the problem.
That's the first part.
Secondly, I think communicationshows us how different we really
are.
I think a lot of people that Italk to say teach me how to be a
great communicator, take mefrom zero to 100.
Maybe someone's vulnerableenough to do that.
I also have to remind peoplethat sometimes the way that you
(05:41):
communicate makes sense to youand your brain and your culture,
but this person, the way thatthey communicate, might be
completely different.
You'll have a meeting wheresomeone will be a communicator
and you'll have four differentinterpretations of what was said
, how it went down, what theyactually meant.
I think the big epiphany is thatpeople communicate differently
(06:05):
because we see the worlddifferently and we have a
different psychology andperspective about things.
And it's just obvious withcommunication, because this is
what's coming out of how I thinkabout things with my
communication.
So that's why you get these twoships passing in the night,
because people are wireddifferently and I'm going to
match the style of communicationand how I think in my
(06:25):
perspective.
That's why we're notcommunicating well, because
we're different people, and solet's first admit that and then
build off that.
Pete Newsome (06:32):
Is there anything that makes it specifically more
challenge at work than it isperhaps in other aspects of life
?
What we're going to talk abouttoday.
I knew this was going to happen.
We're already going down acompletely different path, so I
do want to bring it back to whatwe're supposed to talk about
today, which is burnout in theworkplace a new course that
(06:55):
you're leading on that.
But before we get into that,let me just ask this why is it
different at work?
Why is what goes so well for usin other aspects of life just
becomes much harder when we'rein the office environment?
Dr. Josh Hammonds (07:11):
Wow, I think, oh, wow, where do I start with
that?
I think that's a good question.
I think with all forms ofcommunication, always there's a
task element and a relationalelement.
So there is the task element,which is I need to be clear with
my information and givedirectives and give, give the
objectives that need to happen,and I'm clear and I understand
what you said.
(07:32):
And so there's that element.
But then there's also what Isometimes don't think about is
there's a there's a relationalor cultural element.
There's, there's, as I'mtalking to you, there's there's
tone, and I'm building a cultureand I'm building a climate and
I'm building on a relationship,as I communicated as well, and
so the best communicators willunderstand that both of these
Are necessary in differentcapacities, and so, from a work
(07:54):
perspective, I have to be veryinformative and very clear, but
then also need to be a greatlistener and and and
understanding and empathic andrelational at the same time, and
if I can, if I can get both ofthose With my team, then I've
got a great, successful team.
But not everybody isnecessarily an ambidextrous
communicator and can handle bothof those right, and so I think,
(08:17):
with work, the greatest leadershave a grasp on both of those
and usually when I do any kindsof training or educating, it's
alright.
Which side do you favor on sothat I can help you with the
other, the non dominant?
Pete Newsome (08:31):
hand, if you will.
So that's really interestingbecause I think you can be.
You can be an effectivecommunicator in certain
circumstances, but a terriblecommunicator in others.
And I, that's been a strugglefor me personally, as we talked
about off camera when, as asalesperson, career salesperson
(08:51):
I've been in a very effectivecommunicator but I know at times
with younger professionals as aleader I have not been, and I
see it in the body language,right, I see it in the, in the
issue.
You just see the reaction andsay this is not resonating,
right.
This message is that I'mdelivering, it's coming out one
way, but it's being received Anentirely different way and I
(09:12):
think that's I hope that'scommon, I think it is.
Dr. Josh Hammonds (09:15):
Sure, oh, absolutely, yeah, absolutely.
And so that, yeah, when I do myassessments, I'm like all right
, where?
Where we out on the spectrum asa communicator so that I know
that?
All right, I no longer need tospend any time talking about
being a concise, clear community.
You've got that down great,when you deliver information,
it's direct, it's clear, it'sassertive, it's concise.
Now let's focus on this right,and then and other people have
(09:37):
to I have to flip flop and teachthem being direct, how to be
direct, how to be assertive.
You've got the relationalelement down.
Everybody loves you as a boss,as a leader, but every but
people are confused and they'renot hitting their numbers and
the deadlines are off.
Pete Newsome (09:51):
But Do you think that?
So there's a responsibility forthe person doing the speaking
and there's some level ofresponsibility that has to lie
with the person who's doing thelistening, right, certainly?
Do you think that has been achange?
Because, over the over theyears, where messages you know
(10:11):
we live in a different time thatexisted 2030 years ago.
Right, the short attentionspans, information comes in so
quickly, so much of it, I mean.
I feel that my day is so muchshorter today, even though I may
work longer hours than it was20 years ago.
It's a struggle, and so now wehave people who are
(10:32):
professionals in the workworkforce.
No one intends to be a badcommunicator, right?
So we know that.
But do you think that the waymessages are received today are
different than how they werereceived 2030 years ago?
Dr. Josh Hammonds (10:45):
I do, and I'll hit on just two things you
said.
I think the first thing is yeah, we've got so many more
channels coming at us at once,right, did you?
Did you check my message?
Did you slack it?
Did you text it?
Did you email it?
Is that a video I'm supposed towatch?
Remind me, when you say mymessage, to what channel is this
coming at me?
And so I guess I think I think,with with the abundance of
channels, now we have someconfusion on clarity.
(11:07):
Where's back in the day?
It was like we said it in theMonday meeting.
That was the only time you sawme and that's where you got that
message, versus all thesedifferent Mediums that happen.
So there's a clarity issuethere.
But I think, secondly, as thework life boundaries continue to
a road and I don't think it'sgoing anywhere, I think it's
going to continue being moreintegrated, more and more and
more right, you're checking onyour phone after dinner and
(11:29):
things like this.
As those boundaries are road,people are wanting more from
their organizations, and so ifI'm spending more frequent,
intermittent, frequent timeswith my team on a project, you
know we're hitting a deadline,so we've got a big sprint coming
up, so we spent so many hourstogether that your work then
does become part of yourcommunity, and there's a lot of
(11:50):
people that do Long for or wanta culture or a climate that they
can feel comfortable in, feelsafe in, be creative with right,
because so much of our work iswrapped up Into our identity.
If you're successful work andyou get to use your strengths at
work, that feels good, that'spart of who you are, and so then
(12:11):
I also then want thecommunication to be supportive
in that way, and I want feedbackregularly, and I want you to
tell me what I'm doing great,just as much as what I probably
need to work on.
So I think the demand of theleader, who, who maybe has been
leading teams for the pastthirty, forty years, is going
what's in the water?
What's changed?
What's changed is people arewanting more from their teams,
in their organizations, more sothan they ever have, because
(12:34):
they're spending so much moretime, and it's it's it's
blending more into their actual,real lives as well.
Pete Newsome (12:39):
It.
What has been working from homecertainly hasn't done anything
to lessen that, it's onlyexacerbated it.
And finding that separation ishard, which is a really good
segue into what I told you.
The purpose of today would beasked you to speak about which
is your new, your new course onburnout, and you is what you
(13:00):
shared with me.
It's you're leading it from twodifferent perspectives, you're
teaching it from two differentperspectives.
How you can help leaders bebetter at controlling that
something that I certainly needcould use some help with but
also how individuals and that'swhat we're going to focus on
today can handle it, manage itfor themselves, because I think,
(13:23):
at some level, we all have totake responsibility for our own
actions, our own perspective onthings.
I mean you and I.
I think the day we met, weended up talking a little bit
about stoicism and how I saysomething is one thing, how you
receive it, that's on you, right, how that makes you feel.
(13:44):
And so burnout is it?
What is it?
Let's start there, becausewe're talking about we want to
help people with burnout.
I don't want people to feelburned out.
I suspect I make them feelburned out, whether I intend to
or not.
Right, right.
Dr. Josh Hammonds (13:59):
I think you know.
And so it's a great questionwhat is burnout?
I think that question is whatstarted my entire quest several
months ago, about eight monthsago really started, and dive
deep into it, because we justuse that term all the time.
I'm so burnout.
You worked on a project for anhour and you'll just get up from
it and go, oh, I'm burnout, Igotta go take a walk, it's like.
And so when you use that wordalways, then it doesn't mean
(14:22):
anything.
It just means you're tired, itjust means you're a little bit
stressed.
And so what does that wordactually mean?
And so I delve deep into theresearch and we see this in the
literature for the first timeabout 1982, and Christina
Maslach and her team were doinglots of research on physician
burnout and different kinds ofworkplace burnout, and she was
able to really come to a nicedefinition which I really like.
(14:43):
And then I took another stepfurther.
But she says and I wanna getthis right the term burnout is a
syndrome involving experiencesof emotional exhaustion,
depersonalization and thenreduced self accomplishment
while it works.
So she combines this sort oflarge, nebulous idea that if
you're really burned out, you'reexperiencing these sort of
(15:05):
symptoms.
And so I took that next stepfurther and looked at several
more studies and then conductedmy own study, and I found out
that there's really about fourdifferent types or four
different dimensions of burnout.
And so there are the physicalburnout cases where I have been
working back to back meetings 16hour days for about a week.
I am physically just burnoutand I need rest and I gotta take
(15:27):
a break.
And so the study that Ipublished, that Microsoft did
back right after the pandemicright, showed that individuals
who took just even a 10 minutebreak in between their back to
back meetings showed a massivereduction in the stress version
brainwaves that were emitted.
And so if you could just restfor that moment, go take a walk
(15:48):
and come back, you'll see areset in your brainwave stress
activity, and so that is a thing.
Physical burnout, however, justbecause you're physically
exhausted does not necessarilymean that you are or
experiencing workplace burnout,and so I wanted to go a little
bit deeper into that, and so thesecond one that I found was
(16:09):
this idea of depersonalizationor mental burnout, and that's
the one we saw really crop upduring the pandemic.
And depersonalization or mentalburnout says that, like my mind
is no longer at work, I ammentally checked out, and so
I've called this sort of thepurpose problem that you no
(16:30):
longer see a meaning or purposein the work that you're doing.
And we saw so many peopleduring the Great Resignation not
only leave their jobs, theyleft their industries.
You had teachers becoming techsales people, right, and so you
saw everybody just switchingbecause they woke up one day and
say is this what I want to do?
Does this matter anymore?
(16:50):
I no longer see myself as anaccountant.
I don't know why I'm anaccountant.
Why did I even pick this and soand a global pandemic can
certainly rattle a few cages toask big questions, certainly
like why am I doing this?
What am I doing?
Right?
But mental burnout is that I'velost the meaning, and so
diagnosing that there'sdifferent treatments for that
(17:13):
cause than there would be that,hey, you just need to take a
break.
I love my job, but you'reworking 16 hour days, you got to
rest, you take two days off anddo not answer your phone at all
, right, so those are differenttreatments for that.
And then the third one, which Ithink maybe is the most
problematic this is attitudeburnout.
And attitude burnout reallystarts to creep up when you
(17:34):
notice cynical attitudes and soyou no longer are.
You know you've got a quicktongue at work, you've got a
couple of toxic sidebarconversations that are happening
, and really the root of this isyou have not felt recognized or
valued in a long time.
Okay, and recognition can comeintrinsically and extrinsically
(17:57):
right.
It could be that I've notgotten a raise or a pay increase
in years and I have beenbusting my butt.
Right Could be that kind ofvalue, but it also could be
nobody has really even spoken tome about how valuable I am, or
even recognized me publicly orin front of my team on how much
I do here, and so when thatstarts to happen, you start
(18:18):
getting really cynical.
Why am I here?
Right, and so I am.
I'm in a bad place, I am sayingthings that I shouldn't, I'm
feeling things that I shouldn't,and so that's an attitude
burnout.
That, to me, is the yellow, ifnot orange, flag that if you
don't start having conversationswith your leadership or doing
some real, either go out and getsome coaching or talking to
(18:40):
somebody through this it mightbe time for you to hit eject,
because that one is tough, tosort of turn around and do it.
And then the last one.
The fourth type of burnout isthis idea of skill burnout, and
skill burnout says that I don'tfeel like I have the resources
or the tools or the skills toaccomplish what I used to be
(19:01):
able to accomplish.
And that starts happening whenthe tech evolution has increased
, and so everything from machinelearning to AI, all of these
new integrations.
So if you've been at your jobfor 20, 30 years, or if you're
in leadership, and all of asudden the tools are
accelerating at a pace that isquicker than what you're picking
(19:23):
up on or your ability to usethem, you might feel inadequate,
and so that's a skill burnoutsystem.
And again, that's a differenttreatment.
That's a.
I need to take a week off, godo a professional development
course in AI, learn what chat,gpt is, how to use it for a
company, and I'll be backbecause I'm feeling inadequate
at my own abilities at this timeand so, again, so that's a long
(19:45):
way of answering your question,but I do see it as these four
primary buckets that once you'rediagnosed with, like okay, my
issue is attitude burnout.
You're right, that's exactlywhat it is.
I still have lots of meaningand purpose.
I'm not exhausted, I just don'tfeel appreciated and that's why
I'm burnt out, and that's whythat's what's feeling this.
So each time you have a causeto these burnouts, there's a
(20:09):
different treatment that youshould be taking.
Pete Newsome (20:11):
So it sounds like step one is to identify the
problem, Absolutely Likeanything.
So on the surface of skill,burnout to me doesn't sound like
the same category as the otherthree.
When we're calling it burnoutversus some better way of saying
we're being left behind rightor feeling inadequate, perhaps.
Dr. Josh Hammonds (20:33):
It is, it is.
But if, let's say, we decidedto switch over to a whole new
platform to do the job you'vebeen doing for 10 years, we've
got a whole new platform andthere's a training seminar.
They're coming in and we'regonna do a huge change over and
make sure you take the onlineclasses and then you need to be
ready by Monday morning to dothat.
Your learning curve dependingon where, how set you are, you
(20:57):
could be very frustrated forthose first three or four months
during that change that you'regoing.
I don't know if I wanna learnsomething new, I don't know if I
can learn something new and Icannot catch up and I am burnt
out trying to stay ahead of thisevolution of curve.
But you're right, it is adifferent kind of burnout.
It doesn't involve the attitudeor necessarily even the meaning
(21:19):
or purpose.
You're just exhausted trying tolearn a new skill.
Pete Newsome (21:23):
But that explanation puts it in a really
good perspective and it makesmore sense to me Hearing it that
way, because your example of AIwas perfect for that.
Where, here we are with thisthing going at a million miles
an hour, the train is not onlyout of the station, it's well
down the tracks.
At this point, and if you'vebeen in your role for a long
(21:46):
time or it worked really hard toget to a point, I mean, I'm
watching some college graduatescome out now.
They've just spent four yearsgetting a degree in something
that has almost been renderedmoot by some of the new
technology that's out, and youhave that on one spectrum.
The other end of the spectrumare people who've been in their
profession a long time who arenow being told to your point.
(22:08):
You have to relearn how to doeverything.
Yeah the payroll system.
Dr. Josh Hammonds (22:14):
Good luck, department of Five.
Yeah, I mean, and that happensright Throughout everyone's
career.
Pete Newsome (22:20):
I mean, the technology I use every day
didn't exist when I came out ofcollege.
Needless to say, some of thetechnology I use didn't exist
when we came into 2023.
So it's a constant thing and itdoes.
I get it right.
I get that feeling.
I don't, yeah.
But let me ask you so whenyou're teaching leaders?
Dr. Josh Hammonds (22:44):
Yeah.
Pete Newsome (22:45):
Is it?
Do you give?
Is the guidance to anticipateeach of these things, know what
signs and symptoms to look forand then how to deal with it.
But back to identificationbeing the first step, I think.
Do you plant that?
Is it anticipation or is itreaction that you try to teach?
Dr. Josh Hammonds (23:08):
I think the best one is to have a proactive
right.
So maybe you're leading a teamand you've been thinking they
might be burnt out, but you'renot sure if it is burnout or if
it's a different kind of burnout.
Right, just explaining thesedifferent styles, you'll see the
light bulbs go off, go, you'reright, this one's cynical, but
this one no longer finds purposein it Now, oh, that makes sense
(23:29):
, and so just giving it acategory, giving it a name,
talking about the symptoms,talking about the different
treatment, can help a leadersort of be a little bit
proactive so that when they seethese signs coming right, it
doesn't get to that point.
Right, if you're at a point ofcynicism, something broke way
over here before you know youdidn't wake up with a cynical
(23:50):
attitude, ready to be toxic atevery water cooler conversation
that no one wakes up doing that.
There were signs before thereand it might have been physical
exhaustion.
I worked, you know, for twomonths on this project and no
one said anything and no onegave me the recognition that I
deserved.
Right, and so getting ahead ofthat is always going to be the
(24:12):
best plan if I'm leading a team.
Pete Newsome (24:15):
So of the fourth, one of them is physical right.
That is not something that wecan control.
The other three to what degreeare they self-imposed?
Dr. Josh Hammonds (24:29):
Yeah, I think that's a great question.
So what if I am leading a teamand this team no longer finds
meaning or purpose in their role?
So now, as a leader, right, amI seriously responsible for
talking my accountant intoseeing the purpose and the
meaning of their role Likethat's your issue?
If you no longer see themeaning, that's your issue and
(24:50):
so there's a part of that that,yes, it's on that person, but,
as their leader, could you helpconnect those dots right?
And so one of the ways that wedo this or I talk about doing
this the control that you mighthave, the only actionable thing
that you might have, is say,let's sit down and ask, let's
have a one-on-one with thepeople that I'm leading and say
let's see what your role is andmake sure that your role is very
(25:12):
clear, Because sometimes youknow scope creep happens and
you're no longer doingaccounting, you're doing 17
other things.
You love accounting, you findgreat meaning in accounting.
It's the 48 other things thatI've now acquired over the past
six months because of hybridwork, because of all these sorts
of things.
So having that role clarityconversation could bring it back
(25:33):
in.
Maybe they do love accounting,they're just doing so much.
That isn't accounting right.
So having that conversation andthen also having conversations
about like look, here is thepurpose, the vision and the
mission of this company.
This is why you joined us.
This is what makes us different.
Let me remind you of that andsee if that brings any more
(25:54):
clarity and things like that aswell.
And so those are two things youcan do as a leader.
But you're right ultimately, ifsomebody wakes up and says I
don't want to be this anymore,and then you can, I think a good
leader should help thetransition into even if that's
another company, right?
Great leaders don't just careabout their own organization,
(26:14):
but hopefully they care for thegrowth and development of people
, and that's why they're in thatbusiness people leadership.
Pete Newsome (26:19):
That makes complete sense, as is the
individual who experiences this,maybe not knowing what words to
put to it, but we feel it right, we all know what Dredd feels
like.
Oh yeah, we all know thatfeeling.
I mean I've talked about itmany times over the years being
in the staffing industry.
Where the second you decideyou're going to quit right, I
(26:39):
mean we've put the quiet.
Quitting has been talked aboutso much.
That's a little bit differentto me, but when you're checked
out and you know there's nocoming back from it every day,
every minute feels like torturefrom that moment forward.
So we know it, when we feel it,even if we can't put words and
(26:59):
phrases attached to it.
How much control does theindividual really have over
being in?
Is there a way to repair thesituation, generally speaking,
or, when that exists, it's timeto leave right, like if you're
(27:22):
in this accountant scenario.
Yes, you like doing accounting.
Times have changed.
Now we're working at home.
Now we've had to scale back.
The business has evolved.
This is normal, this is stuffthat happens.
But do we need to throw thebaby out with the bath water,
right?
Or is part of it?
Hey, you know what.
I need to isolate the things Idon't like.
(27:44):
I need to put them in a silo,identify them for what they are
and just deal with it.
Dr. Josh Hammonds (27:52):
I think it's always worth having a
conversation with your leader,with your manager, before you
bounce because you don't knowwhat opportunities could be
brewing up.
And so having a conversationI've got this questionnaire
guideline is a bore out orburnout right, and so I
encourage people to take thisquestionnaire not only to do a
self-reflexive with themself,but then take that with their
(28:12):
manager.
Are there opportunities thatexist, task forces, strategy
sessions that I could beinvolved in or get involved in
that would ignite more passionand interest in me?
So chances are.
If you've been there for awhile, you know what you like
and you know what you don't like.
And so having that conversationI've worked with tech companies
(28:33):
before where somebody who was insales just very much didn't see
that anymore, but had a passionfor product and creativity, and
so they kept grafting this way,this way, until they finally
said let's make the lateral move, we're hiring people in product
.
Why don't we make this move?
You already know the company,we already know you're a
diligent worker.
And so having that conversationwith your manager saying here's
(28:55):
what I'm passionate about,these are the strengths that I
would like to be challenged onand see if I can't increase my
performance in that way Arethere opportunities and or do
you see opportunities in thenear future?
Maybe not today, but are thereopenings?
And then having thatconversation and then your
manager can go?
Absolutely not, that will neverhappen for you.
This is why we hired you, right?
(29:16):
And then you can go shoppingand amicably exit and find out
what that is.
But having that conversationwith manager I mean companies
are changing so much and theskills required and the
competencies required are alwaysshifting and changing.
So you know, the bottom line isknow yourself well enough to
know what the things that you do, that you like to do, and bring
(29:38):
that to your manager just tosee if there are opportunities.
Pete Newsome (29:40):
Well, and problems can't be fixed unless they've
been identified, and that'ssomething that I it's easier
said than done.
I, where I encourage everyone,talk to your manager, just like
you said, share that concern, doit in the right way at the
right time.
Right, do it professionally,but don't dwell on it and don't
(30:02):
leave what could otherwise be agood situation that was a good
situation could be again becauseyou chose that path of leaving
versus trying to do somethingabout it.
Dr. Josh Hammonds (30:13):
Right, because we know the grass isn't
necessarily greener and in manycases it's most definitely not I
wish I had the stat, but thenumber of people that left
during the Great Resonation itwas a large portion of people
went, oops, you know.
And so it's grass yeah, grassis greener.
Pete Newsome (30:28):
Well, and that scenario has created a mess, for
lack of a better way to put itthat we're still dealing with
right now, because the pendulumis making some pretty big swings
, or has been over the lastcouple of years, and there's a
lot of really talented folkscaught on the wrong side of that
right now.
Where they made a move, it wasin their interest to do it and
(30:52):
it was short term right.
Some of the biggest youmentioned tech companies some of
the biggest tech companieshired a lot of people, let a lot
of people go.
Now they're hiring some of themback.
I mean, it's you have to takeresponsibility for your own
success and wellbeing in all ofthis to some degree, or I would
say, to the most significantdegree.
Do you support that?
Dr. Josh Hammonds (31:14):
Yeah, absolutely yeah.
Leaders should always beproactive in developing their
teams, always right, that's whatI'm always going to put the
onerous of responsibility onleadership.
That being said, if I'm talkingto employees, individual
contributors take charge of yourjourney.
You should have an in depth,intimate view of what you are
(31:37):
strong at, what you are great at, what are some things that you
need to grow in and know thatabout yourself.
Communicate that to yourleaders and your managers as
soon as you possibly can, or assoon as it comes into your view,
so that you can get a growthplan together.
Pete Newsome (31:52):
You know it because you've studied it right.
I know it because I've seen itplay out both as an employee and
an employer.
Why is it so hard to do?
Why is it so hard forindividuals to stop and have
those conversations?
Dr. Josh Hammonds (32:06):
There's no time.
There's never time to havethose conversations.
Yeah, I think the one on one, ameaningful, productive one on
one, is the heart and soul ofany organization.
And yeah, I've dealt a lot withtech companies and a lot of
them were remote.
So if you didn't have those,you didn't have anything.
But I think we rely so heavilyon this return to office
movement.
(32:26):
Right, If everybody's in theoffice together, we all learn
through osmosis and you justpick up things along the way and
I can see you and there'saccountability.
Yeah, all that's good, allthat's great, but if you're not
having a one on one for 40minutes every other week, where
the first eight to 10, how areyou really doing?
What's frustrating you the most?
What blockers are preventingyou from doing your job in the
(32:49):
best way possible, and whatresources do you need from me?
If you're not framing the firsteight minutes in that way and
then going through more of asystematic checking off goals,
what you still need to do, whatare some tasks giving some
feedback, I don't know how youcould possibly be growing your
people if you're not engaging inthose one on ones.
Pete Newsome (33:07):
From.
As a communication expert, doyou think that those are Harder
to execute on?
Perhaps right, maybe lessimpactful is a better way to
phrase it virtually versus beingin person.
Do we lose something by doingthat over Zoom?
Dr. Josh Hammonds (33:26):
Yeah, we could dissect that for a while.
Sure, right, and anytime you gofrom a 3D to a 2D, you're gonna
lose something on that.
But I've heard of people justdoing turning off the cameras
and just checking boxes andthings like this.
If you're gonna use aone-on-one just to check the
boxes, did you do this, did youdo this?
Don't forget that.
Don't forget that.
(33:47):
See you next week.
If you're just doing that andyou're not having future
conversations about, like, allright, what are some ways we can
grow you?
What are some new things wecould do?
What are some things we couldadd, challenge you.
If you're not doing that, thenZoom or face-to-face, it doesn't
really matter.
But if you are engaging inthose more kind of real
conversations, I think Zoomworks.
(34:09):
I've seen it work really well.
So it's more aboutintentionality than it is about
the medium.
I think so.
Pete Newsome (34:14):
I think with Zoom, it probably in many cases it
leads to being distracted,Unless you're recording like
this right Now.
We're engaged at this pointbecause we're sensitive to the
camera being on.
But when I'm in Zoom meetings,when I would go to meetings and
sit around the table withsomeone, I wasn't looking at my
(34:36):
phone, I wasn't glancing off.
I have multiple screens outsideof my peripheral vision.
I know I do that duringmeetings I'm not as engaged.
So I think, to your point, youhave to really be conscious of
that to make it effective.
Dr. Josh Hammonds (34:53):
Yeah, I mean meetings.
You can get by with probablydoing three or four things at
the same time while the meetingis happening.
But a one-on-one I would thinkyeah, if I'm asking you a direct
, open-ended question about whatexcited you this week, if
anything, right, I would thinkhold on what.
I would think it'd be obviousif I was quite distracted on a
question that poignant.
Pete Newsome (35:14):
Well, I asked my wife.
She knows she will tell you.
When I appear to be you go inzombie mode where I'm not
actually retaining anythingyou're saying right now because
I'm not engaged.
So that, to your point, Icompletely get that.
I just think it's easier to do,it's easier to fall into that
mode when you're virtual andthat's something to guard
(35:36):
against.
So, with burnout in this course, who should consider taking it?
And then what are they going toget from it?
It's great, yeah.
Dr. Josh Hammonds (35:47):
So two groups .
First of all, if you are burntout and you need some clarity on
which burnout it is and whatmethod you should take to your
manager, your therapist, yourspouse, your best friend,
whatever question guides, Ithink that's the first person
that I'm looking for.
I'm looking to help those whoare stuck and they don't know
how to get out of this right,and the answer may be it's time
(36:09):
to move on.
The answer may be time to havea hard conversation with
management.
The answer may be some soulsearching and take a week off.
But that's the firstdemographic.
The second one is I hear a lotfrom CHROs, people, leaders,
people, ops that are going whatdo we do?
I don't even know where tobegin.
It's gotten so bad and so toxicand or everybody's just going
(36:31):
through the motions.
Hell, is there a treatment outthere somewhere?
So maybe you're notexperiencing it, but you'll get
some tools as well.
So, from the course, that'swhat you can expect.
There's gonna be four majorsessions.
The first session is gonna lookat I will give you a diagnostic
, a survey to use for you andyour teams, so that we can get
some quantitative scores onwhat's the highest, what's the
(36:53):
thing that we go okay, well,it's not physical burnout, great
, good, let's move on, we cancheck that off the list.
And so you'll get some scores,things like this Each session
will have a homework, anactivity, right.
So the second session so afteryou figure out what burnout you
have, the second session isgonna really dive into this
purpose problem.
Did you lose your meaning orare you just adding things to
(37:14):
your plate and it's cloudingyour role, right?
And so we're gonna have a soulsearching kind of activity where
, similar to what we weretalking about, the icky guy of
this idea of, like, what is thething that you love?
What is the thing that mattersthe most to you?
What's the thing the worldneeds?
And so there's gonna be somesoul searching in that session.
Then the third session is gonnabe all about people, and has
(37:37):
your team been breaking you ormaking you?
And so if you are developingattitude and will burnout, we'll
look at what's the culture looklike in your team, what's the
feedback ratio, right?
And so if you're a leader, thisshould be kind of an awakening
going uh-oh, my team is burntout.
In this way, I need to be moreintentional about how I get
(37:59):
feedback.
I need to be more intentionalabout how I'm creating a
psychologically safe space thatwe can air our grievances, we
can be creative with each other,we're not fearing ramifications
, right, and things like this.
Because if your team is ahealthy, supportive team, you
can have massive physicalexhaustion and demands all over
(38:21):
the place, but there is acomfort and a solace in your
team and it can be a buffer andcreate resilience with you.
So your microcosm of your teamis going to have as much of a
buffer against any kind ofburnout as anything else, and so
we'll look at that.
And then the fourth one is thiskind of performance.
We'll look at performance asre-imagined, and so how are you
(38:43):
being assessed on yourperformance as a leader?
Or how are you assessing yourteam?
And then how are you beingassessed?
And so we'll look at ways thatwe can track goals and
performance and bring in ourstrengths in ways that maybe
we've not really assessed orlooked at before, and so we'll
really kind of look at that kindof performance review aspect.
And so each session liveinteractive for an hour.
(39:04):
There's going to be peoplechatting about their lives,
we'll have a framework, I'llpresent some research and then
they'll have an action to takeback to their teams or to take
back if they're an individualcontributor, they can take back
just personally to fill out andthings like this.
But they're going to have toolsthat when they're done with the
course, if they are leading ateam that's burned out, they can
take their whole team throughall of the materials that I give
(39:26):
them and hopefully get to thebottom of some of this and maybe
remedy some of the burnout.
Pete Newsome (39:30):
That's really powerful, and I say that from a
very personal perspective assomeone who has struggled as a
leader with these things.
So that's I confess that to youearly on after we met, and
that's it's not by lack of, fromlack of desire, it's not being
armed with those tools that youjust described.
(39:50):
It's something one of thereasons I'm so happy to connect
with you to try to absorb someof this knowledge and to put it
into practice, because havingidentified the problem long go
doesn't mean I can solve itright.
So while that may be the firststep, there has to be follow-up
steps or no progress is made.
(40:11):
Right, exactly.
Dr. Josh Hammonds (40:13):
Exactly.
Yeah, it's comforting knowing.
Okay, this is what I have.
Now what?
Pete Newsome (40:17):
Right and you said it.
You said it.
There's so many companies rightnow.
I have a peer group I will gointo further detail about that
because this isn't gonna be thebest statement that is that I
communicate with regularly andleaders of organizations and
they are experiencing this.
We're in different markets, wedifferent sized companies in the
(40:39):
office, out of the office, verydiverse group, but everyone,
almost with that exception, isstruggling with how do we get
them as leaders, how do we?
Everyone wants happy employees,right, we want productive,
happy, motivated, engagedemployees, but it's much, much
(41:01):
easier said than done.
Dr. Josh Hammonds (41:03):
Oh yeah, oh yes yeah.
Pete Newsome (41:05):
So we need your course.
Dr. Josh Hammonds (41:06):
Yeah.
Pete Newsome (41:08):
We'll put the link in the show notes so you can
sign up, of course.
Let me have one more question,josh, and I'll let y'all hook
today, because I already havelike four or five more things I
want to interview you about on adifferent day.
Dr. Josh Hammonds (41:20):
That sounds great.
Pete Newsome (41:21):
What surprised you the most through this research
of putting this course together?
Dr. Josh Hammonds (41:28):
Oh wow, I think that's good.
Gosh, that's a great question.
Pete Newsome (41:34):
Or that someone from the outside looking in
would be surprised with.
I don't want you to give awayany secrets.
Maybe we have to take thecourse to find out, but I'm
curious as to something thatsurprised even you, given all
your background.
Dr. Josh Hammonds (41:49):
Yeah, I think to me.
I think the biggest thing thatsurprises me is how much meaning
matters to how engaged I am atwork.
And again, like we talked aboutbefore, is this a generational
thing?
Has it caught on?
But you could look at somebody.
This is why nonprofits existPeople taking a third of the
(42:10):
income that they could.
But at the end of the day, thismatters so much to me and this
is why I'm doing it, and so Ithink the last numbers I
crunched was a large data set,but I think it's 68% of why
you're engaged at work can beattributed to the meaning that
you give.
And then the other thing iseveryone's meaning is
individualized.
So if feeding the world and youjoin this organization and
(42:34):
you're feeding the world andyou're part of this movement and
that matters to you, that'sgreat, but that might not matter
to somebody else.
And so how important it is fora company to be very transparent
about this is our purpose, thisis our mission.
If that aligns with somethingthat you already have intrinsic
in you, that drives you as well,let's connect, let's work
together, let's align in ourmission and our meaning together
(42:57):
, and so I think that's such animportant part.
So, as a recruiter somebody'sbeen in the recruiting business
for a while finding thatalignment from the get go is
important, and then so, when itteeters or when it falters,
getting them back on.
This is why we're doing this.
Remember, this is why we arehere.
This is why we're doing this.
So, but again, that could bedifferent for everybody.
For some people it could be.
(43:18):
I want to make a lot of moneyand build a legacy for me and my
family and my extended familyand then provide from there.
Like, each meaning is no noblerthan someone else's meaning,
and so finding everybody'smeaning and getting that to
align is going to work itselfout.
That drives so much of whyyou're engaged to work.
(43:39):
All these other parts that wetalked about, too, they matter
as well, but that's the big one.
Pete Newsome (43:45):
And we don't do enough of that in the recruiting
process as a whole.
So I'm really glad you broughtthat up.
It means a lot to me, becauseour internal recruiting process
is to first understand thecandidate's objectives before we
tell them about the specificjob we're recruiting them for.
So while their resume is thereason for the initial phone
(44:08):
call because it is skill setsmatched up, right Background,
experience, whatever it might beJust like a good fit on paper,
that's just the cover of thebook.
You have to open the book tounderstand what it's about,
right, and so we seek tounderstand what the candidate's
motives, driver's, objectivesare prior to telling them
(44:29):
anything about the job, becauseonce we start speaking of those
details, it skews the rest ofthe conversation.
And so we want that true answerbecause, to the point you just
made, very well, if those thingsaren't aligned, it's not going
to work right.
If you and we'll just takesomething obvious like working
from home, now some people areputting out at the top of their
(44:51):
priority list now, right, not athing you saw much of four years
ago.
Now very common People arequitting jobs they otherwise
loved because of that veryreason.
So you better get thoserelevant things on the table.
And then even in your accountscenario, which I find
interesting, right, because youthink of an account, you think
boring job, look at it, numbersall day.
(45:11):
Well, there's some accountantsout there who say I want to make
as much money as I can for thetime I spend working.
Right, that's one thing.
Others, they want the meaningof their organization to align
with their interests and whatthey place value.
Dr. Josh Hammonds (45:26):
Yes, I worked with an individual several
months ago and her passion inlife was taking disorganized
data and creating columns for it, like it gave her the most
satisfaction, and so there are.
Meaning can be very differentfor very different people.
Pete Newsome (45:43):
Yeah Well, we're going to talk more about all
this, because it's not ajudgment of one in trying to
decide which one is better thanthe other, but it is necessary
to identify what the companyoffers in that particular regard
, whatever that might be, andthen what the employee needs in
(46:07):
order to avoid being burned out.
Because how unfortunate is itgoing to a situation where the
outcome is inevitably negativebecause of factors no individual
can control right, and thathappens a lot, a lot.
So, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
This is a good road to go down.
(46:27):
We're going to explore it later, but for now let's focus on
making sure everyone knows howto find your course.
We're going to be on burnoutfor weeks, an hour a week.
When does it start?
Dr. Josh Hammonds (46:36):
Yep, october 23rd, monday.
All right, so we'll share allthat.
If you miss a session they'llall be recorded, but yeah, and
then of course you get monthlong coaching, and so I'm there
asynchronously.
You've got burnout questionsthat are very specific.
I am there to answer, as best Ican, what the research says and
what my experience tells, andso, yeah, well, I can't imagine
(46:58):
there's someone who's better forthe times that we're at, whose
knowledge experience.
Pete Newsome (47:03):
What you know, Josh, is what we desperately
need right now to enjoy our daysmore right, To get more
fulfillment out of it and that'sreally what it's all about so
then we can enjoy life as awhole.
So thank you for your time,Thank you for what you're doing,
and I look forward to hearing alot more from you.
Dr. Josh Hammonds (47:21):
Yeah, absolutely.
Thanks so much for having me on, pete.
Always great chatting with youand I'm excited about further
conversations down the road.
Pete Newsome (47:27):
Yes, indeed, all right, everyone.
Thanks for listening.
Have a great rest of the day.
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