December 20, 2023 • 40 mins
Do you feel like your expansive resume is a double-edged sword in the job market? You're not alone. Join hosts Pete Newsome and Ricky Baez as they unpack the 'overqualified' label, offering insights and strategies from their own recruitment and HR backgrounds to help you turn a surplus of experience into an asset.
To start, Pete and Ricky share some of their top resume and cover letter techniques for steering clear of the overqualification trap. They walk you through ways to present your professional history that align with the roles you're eyeing and discuss how to articulate your narrative in a way that truly resonates with prospective employers.
They also explore job search strategies that can set you apart in a competitive landscape. Authenticity and a genuine story are your best allies when navigating your career path.
Get ready to make it past the initial screening and into the interview room, where your full potential can shine!
Additional Resources:
🧠 WANT TO LEARN MORE? Be sure to subscribe and check out https://zengig.com/
👋 FOLLOW PETE NEWSOME ONLINE:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/petenewsome/
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@PeteNewsome
👋 FOLLOW RICKY BAEZ ONLINE:
Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/efrainrickybaez/
Blog Articles: https://www.baezco.com/baezco-blog
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Pete Newsome (00:00):
You're listening to the Finding Career zen
podcast.
I'm Pete Newsome, joined byRicky Baez today.
Ricky, how are you?
Ricky Baez (00:06):
I am great, Pete.
I haven't even startedChristmas shopping, have you?
Pete Newsome (00:13):
Well, I'm dressed sort of like an elf right now,
so you think I would have, but Idon't do a whole lot of
Christmas shopping.
Ricky, I've been married for along time to a wonderful woman
who likes shopping a whole lotmore than I do, so it's a good
balance.
It's a very symbioticrelationship that we have.
That's what makes a tick,that's good to hear man Awesome.
(00:37):
I wish you the best.
It's the middle of December.
You have a couple weeks to go,you're okay.
Ricky Baez (00:43):
I'm going to wait until the 24th watch.
I'll tell you what don't get meanything because I'm not
getting you anything.
Pete Newsome (00:50):
How's that?
Well, at least you're off thelist.
Ricky Baez (00:52):
brother, you're off the list.
I had a Wawa gift card readyfor you.
I mean you're the only one.
I got something for.
Pete Newsome (00:58):
I'd use it if I had it, that's for sure.
Awesome, awesome.
But today we have a differentgift we're going to share.
We're going to share to jobseekers who are worried about
being labeled as overqualified.
I put a brief video up a coupleof weeks ago, shared it on
LinkedIn, shared it on a coupleof social media accounts.
I got quite a bit of feedbackfrom people wanting to know how
(01:21):
to address it.
Now, the perspective I wascoming from was as a recruiter
who's been told many times, toomany times, over the years, that
a candidate is overqualifiedand the manager didn't want to
interview that candidate.
I've always fought that.
I've learned to overcome that,anticipate it.
What about you, ricky?
(01:41):
What's your experience withthat dreaded word overqualified?
Ricky Baez (01:45):
Now I have had some business partners tell me that.
What I tell them is hey,hopefully you didn't verbalize
that out loud to anybody, butlet's have a conversation on why
you think this person isqualified.
That's number one.
Number two have you had aconversation with this person
and why you think the person isoverqualified?
Because for us to make theassessment without talking to
(02:07):
the person it's a little bit ofa moot point.
Pete Newsome (02:10):
Let's talk about what we think it means and what
it does mean, because from yourperspective as an HR
professional, it may differ alittle bit than mine.
Why does that make you nervouswhen you hear that word used?
Ricky Baez (02:24):
Now I'm solely speaking from an HR perspective.
It's because as soon as abusiness partner starts talking
about somebody beingoverqualified now, you start
opening the doors to starttalking about age and you cannot
be having that conversation inany kind of an interview process
or even at work.
To be honest, right, you cannothave that conversation.
(02:45):
So in this particular arena, Ilike for my business partners
and my teams to be very cautiousin what they communicate.
That can open up doors forother legal liabilities.
Pete Newsome (02:56):
Understood, so you by default will assume that
that word is synonymous withbeing old, Right?
So I don't necessarily see itthat way.
I mean I get why you would.
I think in many cases itprobably is used that way.
But I see it more the way it'sbeen used when said to me by
(03:17):
clients.
They've been afraid that thecandidate is being interviewed
or considering a job that isbeneath them professionally,
financially, and that they'llleave instead of wanting to stay
.
So that's the way it's beenused.
For me is because I hate hearingthat phrase.
(03:38):
Right, I reject it entirely.
What does overqualified mean?
I used to for years would kindof fire back and say does that
mean they're too good for thejob?
Is that your concern?
They're going to make you lookbad as a manager because I don't
like hearing it.
But the reality is, more oftenthan not in my experience, it's
(03:58):
been used because a manager isconcerned that that individual
is not going to stay for thelong term because they're taking
a job that isn't really whatthey're looking for.
So that's the perspective Ithink of it from.
Ricky Baez (04:11):
And the other piece of it is because let's just
start talking about whyemployers don't like it, and you
said one of them.
I don't want from an HRperspective, I don't want to
have to deal with what I call astep employee.
What does that mean?
That means that a candidate isapplying for a position.
They're accepting a lesserposition that they would
(04:33):
normally would accept only tofill the gap between the job
they had and the job they reallywant, Right?
Pete Newsome (04:39):
Correct.
Ricky Baez (04:39):
Yes, Right, so that's what I call a step
employee.
So from an employer'sperspective, that's another
reason why we would worry whenwe would come across somebody
like that.
But again, it's all about theconversation.
Pete Newsome (04:51):
Well, I think on the surface it does raise a flag
when you see that a candidatewho has been operating at a high
level is taking a lower leveljob.
A candidate who has madesignificantly more income in the
past is now taking a big paycut.
So I understand that hesitancy,but that's what a recruiter
(05:13):
does.
What I think our job is is athird party recruiter and I
assume that an in-houserecruiter should do the same is
to get beneath the surface onthose conversations and
understand what the candidate isreally looking for.
So sure, you may scratch yourhead when you see someone who
was a VP at a Fortune 500company applying for a staff
level job.
(05:34):
I get why that's odd on thesurface, but we don't know
what's going on with thatperson's personal life.
We don't know what's led tothem having a change of heart in
their career, wanting to startover, wanting to just not have
the pressure that they used tohave of a highly demanding job.
There's limitless reasons andwe don't know what those are
(05:57):
unless and until we have theconversation.
Ricky Baez (06:00):
And that's why that conversation is crucial.
Before anybody can make anykind of assessment on somebody
else, let's ask them why, right?
Because let's be honest, it'slook, I'm in my late 40s, right?
I know you can tell.
I know I look like I'm in myprime in my 20s.
I get it, folks, I get it.
But I'm in my late 40s and nowalmost to 50, I'm thinking about
(06:21):
downsizing, right, my house,everything that I have, my son
is about to be in high schoolright here in about four or five
years, and I got to startthinking about what that's going
to look like post high school.
So when someone like me, in myage we start thinking about
downsizing at home, chances are,if I did everything right
financially, I'm going to startdownsizing my professional life
(06:42):
as well.
So that's not too far fetchedfrom the truth and what people
are going through these days.
So, yeah, that's a thing, pete.
Pete Newsome (06:49):
So we know that managers Don't have bad
intentions, right, they want todo the right thing for their
organization, their team, evenfor the individual, when they
express this concern.
But we've also determined thata lot of times it's unfounded.
Right, they worry about salaryexpectations being too high.
(07:10):
Well, if the candidate's happy,then it's a good fit.
Right, the job title being twojunior well, same thing.
If the candidate's happy, theneveryone should be happy,
because an overqualifiedcandidate using air quotes when
I say that is probably going tohave the most experience on your
team and will bring the valuethat comes with that.
(07:33):
So if you can get past thesethings on the surface as you
should, there's a lot of greatpotential there with hiring a
highly experienced candidate.
Now, today, I want to help givethe candidates some help, and
so we will focus on age to somedegree, because the feedback
that I received from the postthat I put up a couple of weeks
(07:56):
ago was candidates asking how doI overcome this, how do I get
away from that being said andthought about me, because I have
lots of experience.
So it was pretty clear to methat candidates need help, and
that's one of the reasons Ithought this would be a good
episode to talk through today.
Ricky Baez (08:18):
So how can a candidate prepare?
So this is not like you'regoing to walk into an interview,
you're not going to get the job, and I mean, hopefully a
recruiting doesn't say this, buta recruited tells you you just
overqualified.
So what are some of the thingsthat a candidate can do ahead of
time?
And then participation orsomething like that.
Pete Newsome (08:38):
Yeah, let's start by just kind of listing quickly
all the reasons why candidatemay be concerned.
Right, so you have experience,okay, so let's just kind of list
those out Years of experience,maybe advanced degrees, job
titles.
Is there anything else thatwould generate cause for concern
(08:59):
that you can think of?
Ricky Baez (09:02):
It's not just a combination of what your
experience is versus what you'reapplying for.
Good point, because if you havea lot of experience in the
executive C suite but now you'reapplying for a front of the
line manager position, you canalmost guarantee that people on
the other end reviewing yourinformation are going to have
some questions or someassumptions.
(09:22):
At the very least, Correct.
Pete Newsome (09:25):
So the time and ability to address this will
vary through the interviewprocess right Through the
application process.
You've got to get to theinterview first, so let's start
with that initial application.
You're going to send yourresume over.
Maybe you have to fill out aform that equates to a resume
(09:45):
where you're listing yourprevious jobs and titles and
salary, although I wouldrecommend to candidates you
don't have to share your salaryin the past Not really relevant
In my opinion.
You'll be asked ways to deflectaround that.
But my first recommendation toa candidate who is applying is
to use your resume as a way toget in the door A key that opens
(10:09):
, unlocks the door, if you will,and it is there to be
customized.
It is there to be used as atool, just like a key, and you
don't have to put everythingyou've done on the resume.
So, even though we could argueall day long, you shouldn't have
to do this right.
Or, as my accountant likes tosay, you don't want to shoot all
(10:33):
over yourself.
So you could argue whether youshould do it, but reality is
what it is.
Perception is reality in peopleor people.
So we know that concern existswhether it should or not.
So, ricky, my firstrecommendation to candidates is
cut your resume off at a pointwhere you think it may cause
someone to believe you'reoverqualified for that
(10:54):
particular role you're applyingfor.
Ricky Baez (10:57):
So here's where I'm going to mention something that
you and I had a stark differenceof opinion on a few months ago,
right?
Because, remember, therecruiter has about nine seconds
to look at your resume and makea determination.
You have to make your resumeenticing enough for the
recruiter to take a further stepto make a connection with you.
(11:20):
So what I say is get a goodbalance of putting what you know
on your resume.
Here we go and explain it inyour cover letter.
Ah, the cover letter.
Here's why I say that.
Here's why I say that.
I say that because when I was arecruiter, Pete, one of the
things that really made me feelgood about the interview is when
(11:45):
the candidate addressessomething before I have a
question about it, Because thattells me the candidate is aware,
the candidate is self-aware andif I bring that person on board
, that person is going to havethe emotional intelligence to be
aware and address questionsbefore they are questions.
So if you're able to cut yourresume short, but you're able to
(12:06):
explain in your cover letterbecause we talked about this
already on why you have so muchexperience and why you're
looking to downgrade, I thinkthat's going to put you in a
better position for a betteroutcome at the end.
What do you think?
Pete Newsome (12:24):
I think that's a good way to do it, but I'll look
at it from even a more broadsense.
There's phases to an interviewprocess.
The first step is to get anactual interview, get to the
point where you're able to havea live conversation, because
those things are always going tobe so much easier to address
(12:44):
when you have that liveinteraction back and forth.
When you get to hear someone'sresponse, read their body
language, ideally you'll knowhow well your message is being
received.
But you don't get that chancewhen you're doing it and writing
.
So I think a resume and a coverletter is there to be used, as
(13:05):
I said a few minutes ago, as atool.
So when it comes to puttingdates on your resume, you don't
have to start at the beginningof your professional career, and
I'll go even one further.
You may disagree with this.
I want to hear your take.
I think you can be creative inwhat you put down for your job
titles as well.
Now, I'm not saying you shouldfabricate things, but I'm saying
(13:29):
you can massage job titles onyour resume because they're so
subjective out in the real world.
So okay.
Ricky Baez (13:38):
So let me ask you this Because I agree and
disagree?
Because the reason I agree anddisagree is because I know, from
an HR point of view, that yourjob title doesn't matter as much
as your job description.
Job titles can change and Iknow description can change, but
what really matters is what youdid.
But I guess my concern is thatif someone puts me down as a
(14:00):
reference let's say they were myprevious employee and then put
me down as a reference hey, yeah, mike was your HR director.
No, he wasn't.
He was a senior generalist.
Okay, so by operating yourselfis different, right?
Oh, I'll be talking about great, okay.
Pete Newsome (14:16):
I'm saying downgrade yourself a little bit
and doing it subtly.
Let's say you were a vicepresident of sales.
Well, maybe you were just asales leader, okay.
Ricky Baez (14:27):
I get what you're saying Absolutely.
Pete Newsome (14:29):
You're not being disingenuous by saying that, but
you are controlling theperception a little bit, which
is the goal of the resume.
If you make your resume appearas if your professional career
started in 1990, right, or I'llsay 2010 versus 1990, the
(14:52):
interviewer may be a littlesurprised to think, to realize
you're 20 years older than theythought you would be.
But that's okay.
That is going to give you theopportunity to address it live
in the moment.
So if you're worried aboutbeing considered overqualified,
then don't put your graduationdates on your resume.
(15:14):
Don't put your earliest datesof employment.
You're not obligated to do thatin any form or fashion.
Ricky Baez (15:20):
So now that you said that, because I am picking on
what you're putting down whatabout scope of past
responsibility?
Because I'm thinking if youwere a VP before and you're
looking for that next level up,you're going to put that on your
resume everything you've doneas a leader.
But if you don't want to comeacross as too qualified, you
(15:42):
could still tell the same story,but not what you did as a
leader, but what you did as anemployee because you had a boss.
So let's talk about what youdid for your boss and don't make
it sound as executive-y.
That's not a word, folks.
Don't even try to say it.
That's just made that up.
An executive is possible.
Now, I know it sounds likelying.
(16:03):
It is not lying.
You're telling the same storyin a different way, right?
So, talk about what you've doneas an employee, not what you've
done as a leader.
Would that be?
Pete Newsome (16:14):
a fair assessment?
Yeah, because what we're reallytalking about is omitting
things on your resume.
So let's just go with threeoptions.
If you're a candidate, are yougoing for a job that is at the
same level, or are you going fora job that's at a higher level
than the one that you were in?
Or, in the case of what we'retalking about today, at a lower
level than what you've been inbefore?
Proceed accordingly, just besmart about it.
(16:37):
And so, if you need to for lackof a better way to phrase it
dumb down your resume becausethat's in your interest in that
particular scenario.
By all means do it and thenexplain it live.
I mean, that's what we'rereally talking about here is use
your resume and or cover letteras a tool to get you to the
live interview and then you havean opportunity to explain.
(17:00):
I think by not doing that, thenyou can hear a point a few
minutes ago of recruiters takingjust a few seconds to look at a
resume.
It's going to appear thatyou're not qualified, because
they're going to make thosejudgments and assessments based
on what they see in the momentand they'll think this one, this
(17:22):
resume, got here by mistake.
I mean, how are you thrown out?
They're probably not going tostop and explore further if the
resume looks way too senior forthe role that they're recruiting
for.
Got you that makes sense.
Is that a flaw?
You think you think that's aflaw in the recruiting process
or is it just chalk it up to?
You know it is what it is.
Ricky Baez (17:43):
As far as how long it takes or as far as making the
initial.
Pete Newsome (17:47):
We know that recruiters will kick back
resumes that seem to be not agood fit for various reasons,
over qualify being one of them.
Ricky Baez (18:02):
If this is a flaw, then it's our fault.
If it's a flaw because we put alot of pressures and recruiters
to produce, so let's take astep back.
Right, we talked a few minutesago how long it takes to review
a resume.
Right, so that's because of thenature of the work.
So by the nature of the work,we kind of forced the recruiters
(18:23):
to make adjustments relativelyquickly, right?
So if they see something thateither says under or over
qualify, they're because of thenature of the work, because of
how leadership have pushed themto perform and produce, because
time is money, then that kind offorced the hand, kind of forced
the issue for the recruiters tomake that quick action decision
(18:43):
.
And look, they're human beings,some.
Right, we are human beings, sowe just got to make sure that we
get the right balance.
So, is it a flaw?
It is.
It's a flaw that can always usesome improvement, always.
So we just got to find betterways how to do it.
Pete Newsome (18:58):
Well, here's what we know to be definitively true
when it comes to recruiters.
Everyone needs to know this.
Recruiters are trying to findthe best match for the role, the
single best match, and they'regoing to use all of their
knowledge, experience,everything they've been exposed
to.
Some things are conscious, somethings are subconscious.
They're going to apply all ofthat within five to 10 seconds
(19:23):
when they look at a resume andmake a go or no go decision.
So you have to acknowledge that.
That's step one.
Whether there's a better way todo it, if life could be
different, that's irrelevant inthis particular scenario.
You're trying to beself-serving and the goal is to
(19:43):
get to the next level, which isan in-person interview, or at
least whatever that next levelis for that scenario.
So operate accordingly.
That's what I always tellpeople with resumes, provided
you don't fabricate anything.
That's a huge caveat that hasto be in place, right?
Because if there's something onyour resume, you have to be
able to defend it, and it's gotto be real.
(20:04):
Now I also want to use this asan opportunity to give a little
commercial use a third-partyrecruiter because we know that
these things are going to comeup.
If you're a third-partyrecruiter, your job is to sell
your candidate once you'vedetermined that they're the best
fit for the role, and I alwaystook the approach and encouraged
(20:27):
my team to do this today topoint out whatever may be
perceived as a flaw, to addressthat on the front end with their
client, and that's what I usedto do with my client.
So, ricky, if I knew that youwere, if I was submitting you
for a candidate that required abachelor's degree and you didn't
have a bachelor's degree butyou had experience that more
(20:49):
than compensated for it, thefirst thing out of my mouth
would be to let them know I knowRicky doesn't have a bachelor's
degree, but here's why thatdoesn't matter.
Now I have to understand myclient well enough to know that
you know, if I'm submitting youto be, you have to be hired as a
medical doctor, and I say youdon't have a bachelor's degree.
Well, that's a problem, right,but in many cases it's a
(21:12):
subjective requirement it's niceto have.
Sometimes it is, in theory, ahard requirement, but it's not
really a hard requirement, right, it's just something that the
company says is a hardrequirement.
So we have to understand all ofthese things and then sell
around it.
Now, good recruiters also goingto know whether they're wasting
their time with that, if ittruly is a hard requirement.
(21:35):
So you have to know that first.
But there's very few, if any,perfect candidates out there.
Everyone has a flaw almosteveryone anyway and so I want to
highlight those flaws, becausemy logic has always been if I
tell you what the problem iswith the candidate, you can't
use it against me later.
So let me tell you what theproblem is.
(21:56):
The worst thing about thecandidate have a very compelling
reason as to why it doesn'tmatter, and then we're just
going to be left talking aboutthe good.
So I always want to get the badout of the way up front.
Ricky Baez (22:07):
So, pete, let's make a real, a real defined
distinction between a goodstaffing agency and a crappy one
.
Here's why I'm bringing that up,because what you just brought
up you just brought up a lot oftime, a lot of effort that it
takes for the recruiter to getto that level of information, to
have that communication withthe client.
(22:28):
Look, here's why I think thisperson is perfect ABC.
Here's why I think it's not ABC.
It's an agent right, versus acrappy one that just they just
want to get paid for sendingthem resumes.
Here you go, whether they'rewith the organization for 30
days or 30 years, they don'tcare.
They just want to get the youknow, be able to send an invoice
for that candidate Versus agood one that they don't focus
(22:52):
on just filling the seats.
They focus on filling the rightseats that's made just for the
client.
That's going to last them along time.
That's a really gooddistinction to make, because
there's some really good ones,like Four Corners, and there's
some really crappy ones outthere that really do a crappy
job by the client.
Pete Newsome (23:08):
Well, no one's a bad recruiter for very long,
right?
If you operate that way, youwon't stay with your
organization very long.
You probably won't stay in theindustry very long.
You have to have a long-termperspective.
When you're speaking withcandidates about what they want,
Is it just as when you'respeaking with a client about
what they want and need.
(23:28):
You have to consider both sides,and my philosophy has always
been and always will be bad newsearly is good news.
Let's get it all out upfront.
If let's say the hours aren'tattractive, then I'm going to
tell the candidate about thehours right up front.
If it's a super intenseenvironment and we know that a
lot of people will be turned offby that, we're going to tell
(23:50):
that to the candidates early inthe conversation.
Because if we get all the badnews out of the way, we're only
left with good.
The same thing happens when youpresent a candidate, and part of
recruiter's role is to first beconvinced themselves, and then
you have to sell the candidate.
So I'm not big on selling acandidate on a job.
I'm not big on selling a clienton the wrong candidate.
(24:14):
But once I've been convincedthat this is the right person,
if I'm a good recruiter and I amthen I'm going to go to the
wall for my candidate.
And if they don't have a degreeand I know that doesn't matter
I'm not going to let that get inthe way.
If they've been in a seniorrole and now they're wanting to
take a more junior role or takea big pay cut because it's a job
(24:37):
that they want now, making nomistake, I'm going to question
all of that as well.
If I see the VP from theFortune 500 company wanting to
take a staff level job, I'mgoing to ask about it.
Of course I am.
Why wouldn't I?
It's justifiable, it's rational, but I'm not going to let it
get in the way of an otherwisegreat candidate.
Ricky Baez (24:58):
So let me ask this piece.
So I did the interview.
Let's say I am that candidate,I'm that candidate that was the
VP for 20 years, right, and nowI'm looking to Don Gritt.
I made it through theapplication process.
I made it through thepre-screen.
Now I'm in an in-personinterview.
Do you suggest that I just keepanything to myself about
mentioning about beingoverqualified?
(25:20):
Should I wait for the recruiterto bring it up?
I know I answered this earlier.
Pete Newsome (25:24):
I think you put it front and center.
Ricky Baez (25:26):
Front and center right.
That's what I was thinking.
Pete Newsome (25:28):
That's what I was thinking.
That's what I was thinking.
You have to anticipate what'sgoing to happen, and I think
we've defined already that thisperception exists, this bias
exists.
Okay, fine, Now you can say andsome people will say, we see
this on LinkedIn all the time.
Well, I don't want to go workfor a company that thinks that
way.
Okay, a recruiter, multiplerecruiters, multiple employees
(25:52):
does not make up a company.
And so if you poll, if it'smore than a company of one,
you're going to have differingperspectives and views and
opinions on things political,social, you name it.
So don't let that get in theway of an otherwise good
opportunity.
Right, People don't know thatthey're doing something wrong.
They think they're doing theright thing.
(26:12):
So don't let that bother youtoo much.
If you're a candidate who says,well, if they don't want me as
I am, I don't want to go workfor that organization, that's
very short-sighted.
And if you look beneath thecovers of, or in everyone's
what's in everyone's head, youprobably wouldn't want to go
work for anyone else.
Ricky Baez (26:28):
I was thinking it, Heather, I'm going to say it,
but you're right.
Pete Newsome (26:32):
So we have to get past that and so, yeah, I think
you do want to put front andcenter.
You anticipate the problem andthen you have a way to counter
it.
So if you're that VP, we keepusing this scenario that's now
taking a staff level job, youneed to address it and say you
might wonder why I'm doing this.
I would wonder if I were you,but here's why and here's my
(26:53):
story.
Yeah, you need to have a story.
It needs to be real.
It has to be something morethan well.
I'm waiting for somethingbetter to come along, because
that just confirms theirsuspicion on the front end.
Ricky Baez (27:06):
I love meeting, I love how you're like.
It has to be real.
Isn't it sad that we have tosay that, pete, the story has
folks?
He's right, it's got to be alegit story right, because, just
how everybody in this world hasa BS meter right you do, I do
(27:26):
and it's almost 95% calibrated.
So you know, when somebody'stelling you a story that's
disingenuous, so other peoplewill as well.
You have to make sure the storyis authentic and it's real and
it makes sense for what you'relooking to do.
Pete Newsome (27:43):
Well, I've seen some posts on LinkedIn that
lately I'm sure you have too ofpeople who are feeling desperate
right now and will make a postsaying I'll take anything, it
doesn't matter what it is.
Well, it's not serving themwell, because that is the
opposite of what we're talkingabout right now.
(28:03):
That just confirms thesuspicion that someone says well
, gosh, ricky's saying he'lltake anything right now.
Do I want to be his backup tothe backup to the backup plan,
knowing that the next timesomething good comes along when
the market shifts a little bit,rick, you'll be gone.
I mean, maybe if I hire youunder those terms, but I'm going
(28:27):
to know, or at least assume,that you're going to jump when
you have the opportunity.
And so if you're listening andyou're a candidate who's put
that kind of message out there,delete it.
Yep Again.
Ricky Baez (28:42):
No recruiter in their right mind who's
recruiting for a permanentfull-time position is ever going
to reach out to anybody likethat, unless it's to tell them
don't communicate, don't putthat out there.
Oh, you know what?
Maybe do put that out there,that way recruiters know who to
interview, who not to interview.
Pete Newsome (29:00):
Well, it's one of the strange things that's
happening on LinkedIn right nowis that gets so much attention
when you put a message?
out to me, Naturally it's peoplewho want to help each other.
We want to lend a hand to thosewho need it the most, but at
the same time, you have to showprofessional confidence and
strength to some degree, notdesperation, when you're looking
(29:21):
for a job.
Now, that's talked about a loton LinkedIn these days.
Right, we know that with theopen to work banner, is that
show desperation?
And if so, is that okay?
Is it bad?
I don't really have much of anopinion on that.
I mean, I could argue bothsides of it, to be completely
frank, because we know thatsometimes managers will see that
and think well, I'm moreinterested in a passive
(29:44):
candidate.
That's always been the case.
It's not tied to a banner, it'sjust tied to recruiting in
general, and so you don't wantto create hurdles for yourself
to overcome.
I think that's the message thatI'd like to deliver there.
Ricky Baez (29:59):
No, I'm with you.
It's a good message to sendthat way.
People out there know exactlywhat kind of bait will attract
that recruiter, but, at the sametime, what a recruiter goes
through, and you know a lot of.
It's like going out to buy acar.
A lot of people put a strategytogether based on their own
finances and don't put any typeof thought into the strategy on
(30:22):
what's in it for the dealer,right?
So you've got to put on yourhand of what's in it for the
recruiter.
How can I make this as easy forthe recruiter as possible?
And this is one of the bestways.
One of the things that you justsaid, pete, that I think it's
crucial.
If you think that your resume,your information, is going to
come across and raise a red flagof overqualified, I address it
(30:43):
head on.
Don't tip toe around it.
Exactly how you said.
I like how you said it.
You're probably wondering whyI'm interviewing and you're
probably wondering why I'mwilling to take a pay cut, or
here's why, right, I've got aPS4 addiction to keep up with
PlayStation 4.
I couldn't think of a 5-1.
It's okay, gta 6 is coming out.
So, yeah, it's one of thosethings that you have to be aware
(31:04):
, and you have to know yourworth also.
You have to know how muchyou're worth and how much of a
cut you're willing to take.
But Pete, this one's big, and Iknow you are a big fan of this.
I'm a big fan of this too.
Tap into your network If youbelieve that your information is
going to come across, and raisethat red flag.
(31:25):
Try to find somebody whoalready works there, who knows
who you are, who knows how youwork, who is going to vouch for
you.
There is no better way for youto, as a recruiter, to assess
somebody else's skill set andwhether they're going to survive
in an environment or not,unless somebody within the
organization can vouch for you.
So tap into your network.
(31:45):
Always start working on those.
Pete Newsome (31:48):
I'm glad you brought that up, because if you
have that concern and you haveto put yourself in the shoes of
the person who's viewing yourresume and be pragmatic, just
because you know that it's whatyou want or what you need, you
have to assume that the personis going to look for flaws.
(32:10):
There's two things when youlook at a resume, you look for
good, you want to jump off thepage that the person's a good
fit, and you want to look forobvious red flags.
That's what every recruiterdoes.
Who's not looking for a resumefor a position?
That's a needle in a haystack.
We're talking about most jobsthese days.
(32:32):
Get lots of applicants and soyou look what are the ones that
are just clearly qualified andthe ones that have red flags.
So that's just human nature andthat's how it goes.
If you don't have someone touse internally to share your
message and I think that's great.
Hey, ricky, I applied to thisjob at ABC company where you
(32:55):
work.
Would you mind being areference for me, a personal
reference?
Call HR.
Here's who the manager is.
You should absolutely do that.
Ricky may get a referral feefor doing it, who knows?
But I also highly recommendconsidering using a third party
recruiter in these scenariosback to what we were talking
about a few minutes ago.
If you're applying directly fora job, you can't be nearly as
(33:20):
aggressive as a recruiter can be.
I'm not going to just send aresume over and sit back and
wait.
But if you are an applicant,you apply, you hope for the best
and you wait.
Third party recruiters don't dothat.
We pick up the phone, we findout who the manager is.
We can be appropriatelyaggressive and persistent in
(33:42):
doing that.
So I would recommend any jobseeker who's having trouble
finding a job, who isexperienced and worried that
they're being deemedoverqualified and that's one of
the reasons they're not gettinga lot of feedback or interview
requests Partner with a thirdparty recruiter who can be
(34:04):
aggressive on your behalf.
That's right.
Ricky Baez (34:06):
It can be very effective, and we said this a
couple of weeks ago.
The reason a third partyrecruiter is the way to go is
because that's what they do fromthe time they wake up to the
time.
They do that for a living,whereas for a regular
organization, this is somethingthey have to do in order to
survive.
This is what they do for aliving, so leave it to the
(34:28):
experts, let them take care ofit and let them find a candidate
for that position that's goingto give you a good return on
investment.
Pete Newsome (34:37):
Even in.
The last thing I want to saytoday is we're at the end of
2023, very tight job market fora lot of positions in the
professional space.
You have to consider supply anddemand and take a pragmatic
view there too, and answer thequestion for yourself first, how
(34:59):
likely is it that you're goingto be pulled out of the pile?
How much is your resume goingto jump out of the recruiters
compared to the other 100, 200,300 that they're considering?
And then you may have to pivoton your approach, on what's
realistic, what you're pursuing.
I mean, I'm not trying to bedoom and gloom with this, but
(35:22):
it's not about my opinion andthis is not a subjective thing.
It's an objective data rightnow that indicates in some
professions there aresignificantly more jobs than
people.
We know that on the other sideof COVID, there's a lot of
hiring I'm sorry, more peoplethan jobs.
There's a lot more jobs inpositions.
I want to clarify it because forso much of the last couple of
(35:43):
years we've talked about theopposite.
That's true.
I mean, a year and a half agoit was an employee's market.
Some rare instances it is.
It's simple supply and demandright now, and so if you're
seeing that there's hundreds andhundreds of applicants for
every job you think you'requalified for.
It may be time to step back andconsider a different route.
(36:07):
That's a little bit of adifferent podcast, different
episode, but we'd be remiss ifwe didn't bring it up because
it's all part of the equation.
I think a lot of recruitersright now, in particular space
where I obviously operate, arelooking for jobs right now and
it's a saturated market.
People are dealing with theseconsiderations right now being
(36:29):
overqualified or deemedoverqualified.
How do they deal with it?
It's a time-sensitiveconversation.
There's not a lot of easyanswers out there in some of the
situations.
Ricky Baez (36:43):
That's the best way to put it.
There's not a lot of easyanswers, but the answers are out
there, even if they're not easy.
I know these are tough pills toswallow, but look, these are
the things you have to do.
Again, unless you are the top 2percent of any organization or
any school, you really have toput some elbow greasing to get
(37:05):
noticed.
Then this is what happens.
If you do get noticed, eventhen you still have some work to
do because now you've got somepotential red flags out there.
Folks know your worth, knowexactly what your point is in
applying for a position.
Again, as soon as a recruitergets the idea or gets a feeling
(37:26):
that you're just there for justa stepping stone until you get
your next big thing, they're notgoing to continue on.
Don't waste your time, just howyou don't want them to waste
your time.
Know your worth, talk to thefolks and just make sure what
you're looking for.
That's the best way.
I can recap that, pete.
Pete Newsome (37:45):
Yeah, and then be appropriately aggressive.
Right, you're on your own orthrough a third party.
Anticipate the challenge,anticipate the hesitancy that's
going to come if you seem to begoing after a job that's beneath
your skill set or yourexperience or your compensation
in the past.
Just know it's human nature andthat it can be overcome, but
(38:09):
you have to tackle it head on.
I think that's the best way Ican close on this.
Ricky Baez (38:14):
Can I just add one more thing to it?
Just one more quick thing.
If you find a recruiter thatwould tell you that, hey, you
just overqualified.
You're trying to explainyourself and they still hold on
to that assessment Maybe you'reoverqualified, Walk away.
Yes, there's something.
There's a red flag there foryou about the job environment
(38:35):
you're about to walk into, sojust walk away Again.
That's not an easy answer todigest, especially if you need
work A lot of people need workright now.
But also just how they'reinterviewing you and watching
you how you answer thosequestions, you should be doing
the same with that, Absolutely.
Pete Newsome (38:51):
All right, I think we're good.
I think that's it.
We'd love to hear from youQuestions at zengeggcom.
If you have questions for us onthis topic or have other topics
you'd like us to talk about, orhit us up on social media.
We're pretty easy to find onzengegg, especially on our
LinkedIn account.
We're very active.
So we'd love to hear back andtake any suggestions and
(39:13):
comments and we'll run with themand we'll do a Q&A here soon.
I think we're due, ricky.
Ricky Baez (39:19):
Yes sir, we definitely are.
We must have like thousands inthe bag waiting.
Pete Newsome (39:24):
We do.
I switched computers two weeksago and I know they're piling up
.
I haven't even been deep intothat email inbox.
There's a few hundred things inthere, okay.
Ricky Baez (39:34):
Here's what we need to do, Pete, and this is for
everybody to look forward to,and folks help me on on this,
right what I'm about to say.
I need you to email Pete, textsome set of messages.
We need to do this.
I think we need to set up a Q&Asession, but your address has
Santa Claus and you're openingup the questions like a kid
sends Santa Claus a letter.
(39:55):
You have to do that Dress theSanta Claus, get the beard and
we'll get all the questions andcards where you get to open them
from your toy sack.
Pete Newsome (40:02):
How's that?
You're halfway there?
Why am I dressing Santa Claus?
You just have to keep thatgoing and make it white.
Ricky Baez (40:09):
You know what Boom?
I'll do that.
I'll be Santa Claus.
There you go.
See, I'm dressed like the elfanyway, you already dressed as
the elf.
You know what?
I'll go on Amazon and get me aSanta Claus suit.
Pete Newsome (40:20):
All right.
Well, if we get enough, we'lldo it.
We'll figure it out.
I like it.
Great idea, ricky.
Goodbye for now.
Have a good one.
Listen to everyone, bye, bye.
Is that the door of this room?
You're listening to the Finding Career zen
podcast.
I'm Pete Newsome, joined byRicky Baez today.
Ricky, how are you?
Ricky Baez (00:06):
I am great, Pete.
I haven't even startedChristmas shopping, have you?
Pete Newsome (00:13):
Well, I'm dressed sort of like an elf right now,
so you think I would have, but Idon't do a whole lot of
Christmas shopping.
Ricky, I've been married for along time to a wonderful woman
who likes shopping a whole lotmore than I do, so it's a good
balance.
It's a very symbioticrelationship that we have.
That's what makes a tick,that's good to hear man Awesome.
(00:37):
I wish you the best.
It's the middle of December.
You have a couple weeks to go,you're okay.
Ricky Baez (00:43):
I'm going to wait until the 24th watch.
I'll tell you what don't get meanything because I'm not
getting you anything.
Pete Newsome (00:50):
How's that?
Well, at least you're off thelist.
Ricky Baez (00:52):
brother, you're off the list.
I had a Wawa gift card readyfor you.
I mean you're the only one.
I got something for.
Pete Newsome (00:58):
I'd use it if I had it, that's for sure.
Awesome, awesome.
But today we have a differentgift we're going to share.
We're going to share to jobseekers who are worried about
being labeled as overqualified.
I put a brief video up a coupleof weeks ago, shared it on
LinkedIn, shared it on a coupleof social media accounts.
I got quite a bit of feedbackfrom people wanting to know how
(01:21):
to address it.
Now, the perspective I wascoming from was as a recruiter
who's been told many times, toomany times, over the years, that
a candidate is overqualifiedand the manager didn't want to
interview that candidate.
I've always fought that.
I've learned to overcome that,anticipate it.
What about you, ricky?
(01:41):
What's your experience withthat dreaded word overqualified?
Ricky Baez (01:45):
Now I have had some business partners tell me that.
What I tell them is hey,hopefully you didn't verbalize
that out loud to anybody, butlet's have a conversation on why
you think this person isqualified.
That's number one.
Number two have you had aconversation with this person
and why you think the person isoverqualified?
Because for us to make theassessment without talking to
(02:07):
the person it's a little bit ofa moot point.
Pete Newsome (02:10):
Let's talk about what we think it means and what
it does mean, because from yourperspective as an HR
professional, it may differ alittle bit than mine.
Why does that make you nervouswhen you hear that word used?
Ricky Baez (02:24):
Now I'm solely speaking from an HR perspective.
It's because as soon as abusiness partner starts talking
about somebody beingoverqualified now, you start
opening the doors to starttalking about age and you cannot
be having that conversation inany kind of an interview process
or even at work.
To be honest, right, you cannothave that conversation.
(02:45):
So in this particular arena, Ilike for my business partners
and my teams to be very cautiousin what they communicate.
That can open up doors forother legal liabilities.
Pete Newsome (02:56):
Understood, so you by default will assume that
that word is synonymous withbeing old, Right?
So I don't necessarily see itthat way.
I mean I get why you would.
I think in many cases itprobably is used that way.
But I see it more the way it'sbeen used when said to me by
(03:17):
clients.
They've been afraid that thecandidate is being interviewed
or considering a job that isbeneath them professionally,
financially, and that they'llleave instead of wanting to stay
.
So that's the way it's beenused.
For me is because I hate hearingthat phrase.
(03:38):
Right, I reject it entirely.
What does overqualified mean?
I used to for years would kindof fire back and say does that
mean they're too good for thejob?
Is that your concern?
They're going to make you lookbad as a manager because I don't
like hearing it.
But the reality is, more oftenthan not in my experience, it's
(03:58):
been used because a manager isconcerned that that individual
is not going to stay for thelong term because they're taking
a job that isn't really whatthey're looking for.
So that's the perspective Ithink of it from.
Ricky Baez (04:11):
And the other piece of it is because let's just
start talking about whyemployers don't like it, and you
said one of them.
I don't want from an HRperspective, I don't want to
have to deal with what I call astep employee.
What does that mean?
That means that a candidate isapplying for a position.
They're accepting a lesserposition that they would
(04:33):
normally would accept only tofill the gap between the job
they had and the job they reallywant, Right?
Pete Newsome (04:39):
Correct.
Ricky Baez (04:39):
Yes, Right, so that's what I call a step
employee.
So from an employer'sperspective, that's another
reason why we would worry whenwe would come across somebody
like that.
But again, it's all about theconversation.
Pete Newsome (04:51):
Well, I think on the surface it does raise a flag
when you see that a candidatewho has been operating at a high
level is taking a lower leveljob.
A candidate who has madesignificantly more income in the
past is now taking a big paycut.
So I understand that hesitancy,but that's what a recruiter
(05:13):
does.
What I think our job is is athird party recruiter and I
assume that an in-houserecruiter should do the same is
to get beneath the surface onthose conversations and
understand what the candidate isreally looking for.
So sure, you may scratch yourhead when you see someone who
was a VP at a Fortune 500company applying for a staff
level job.
(05:34):
I get why that's odd on thesurface, but we don't know
what's going on with thatperson's personal life.
We don't know what's led tothem having a change of heart in
their career, wanting to startover, wanting to just not have
the pressure that they used tohave of a highly demanding job.
There's limitless reasons andwe don't know what those are
(05:57):
unless and until we have theconversation.
Ricky Baez (06:00):
And that's why that conversation is crucial.
Before anybody can make anykind of assessment on somebody
else, let's ask them why, right?
Because let's be honest, it'slook, I'm in my late 40s, right?
I know you can tell.
I know I look like I'm in myprime in my 20s.
I get it, folks, I get it.
But I'm in my late 40s and nowalmost to 50, I'm thinking about
(06:21):
downsizing, right, my house,everything that I have, my son
is about to be in high schoolright here in about four or five
years, and I got to startthinking about what that's going
to look like post high school.
So when someone like me, in myage we start thinking about
downsizing at home, chances are,if I did everything right
financially, I'm going to startdownsizing my professional life
(06:42):
as well.
So that's not too far fetchedfrom the truth and what people
are going through these days.
So, yeah, that's a thing, pete.
Pete Newsome (06:49):
So we know that managers Don't have bad
intentions, right, they want todo the right thing for their
organization, their team, evenfor the individual, when they
express this concern.
But we've also determined thata lot of times it's unfounded.
Right, they worry about salaryexpectations being too high.
(07:10):
Well, if the candidate's happy,then it's a good fit.
Right, the job title being twojunior well, same thing.
If the candidate's happy, theneveryone should be happy,
because an overqualifiedcandidate using air quotes when
I say that is probably going tohave the most experience on your
team and will bring the valuethat comes with that.
(07:33):
So if you can get past thesethings on the surface as you
should, there's a lot of greatpotential there with hiring a
highly experienced candidate.
Now, today, I want to help givethe candidates some help, and
so we will focus on age to somedegree, because the feedback
that I received from the postthat I put up a couple of weeks
(07:56):
ago was candidates asking how doI overcome this, how do I get
away from that being said andthought about me, because I have
lots of experience.
So it was pretty clear to methat candidates need help, and
that's one of the reasons Ithought this would be a good
episode to talk through today.
Ricky Baez (08:18):
So how can a candidate prepare?
So this is not like you'regoing to walk into an interview,
you're not going to get the job, and I mean, hopefully a
recruiting doesn't say this, buta recruited tells you you just
overqualified.
So what are some of the thingsthat a candidate can do ahead of
time?
And then participation orsomething like that.
Pete Newsome (08:38):
Yeah, let's start by just kind of listing quickly
all the reasons why candidatemay be concerned.
Right, so you have experience,okay, so let's just kind of list
those out Years of experience,maybe advanced degrees, job
titles.
Is there anything else thatwould generate cause for concern
(08:59):
that you can think of?
Ricky Baez (09:02):
It's not just a combination of what your
experience is versus what you'reapplying for.
Good point, because if you havea lot of experience in the
executive C suite but now you'reapplying for a front of the
line manager position, you canalmost guarantee that people on
the other end reviewing yourinformation are going to have
some questions or someassumptions.
(09:22):
At the very least, Correct.
Pete Newsome (09:25):
So the time and ability to address this will
vary through the interviewprocess right Through the
application process.
You've got to get to theinterview first, so let's start
with that initial application.
You're going to send yourresume over.
Maybe you have to fill out aform that equates to a resume
(09:45):
where you're listing yourprevious jobs and titles and
salary, although I wouldrecommend to candidates you
don't have to share your salaryin the past Not really relevant
In my opinion.
You'll be asked ways to deflectaround that.
But my first recommendation toa candidate who is applying is
to use your resume as a way toget in the door A key that opens
(10:09):
, unlocks the door, if you will,and it is there to be
customized.
It is there to be used as atool, just like a key, and you
don't have to put everythingyou've done on the resume.
So, even though we could argueall day long, you shouldn't have
to do this right.
Or, as my accountant likes tosay, you don't want to shoot all
(10:33):
over yourself.
So you could argue whether youshould do it, but reality is
what it is.
Perception is reality in peopleor people.
So we know that concern existswhether it should or not.
So, ricky, my firstrecommendation to candidates is
cut your resume off at a pointwhere you think it may cause
someone to believe you'reoverqualified for that
(10:54):
particular role you're applyingfor.
Ricky Baez (10:57):
So here's where I'm going to mention something that
you and I had a stark differenceof opinion on a few months ago,
right?
Because, remember, therecruiter has about nine seconds
to look at your resume and makea determination.
You have to make your resumeenticing enough for the
recruiter to take a further stepto make a connection with you.
(11:20):
So what I say is get a goodbalance of putting what you know
on your resume.
Here we go and explain it inyour cover letter.
Ah, the cover letter.
Here's why I say that.
Here's why I say that.
I say that because when I was arecruiter, Pete, one of the
things that really made me feelgood about the interview is when
(11:45):
the candidate addressessomething before I have a
question about it, Because thattells me the candidate is aware,
the candidate is self-aware andif I bring that person on board
, that person is going to havethe emotional intelligence to be
aware and address questionsbefore they are questions.
So if you're able to cut yourresume short, but you're able to
(12:06):
explain in your cover letterbecause we talked about this
already on why you have so muchexperience and why you're
looking to downgrade, I thinkthat's going to put you in a
better position for a betteroutcome at the end.
What do you think?
Pete Newsome (12:24):
I think that's a good way to do it, but I'll look
at it from even a more broadsense.
There's phases to an interviewprocess.
The first step is to get anactual interview, get to the
point where you're able to havea live conversation, because
those things are always going tobe so much easier to address
(12:44):
when you have that liveinteraction back and forth.
When you get to hear someone'sresponse, read their body
language, ideally you'll knowhow well your message is being
received.
But you don't get that chancewhen you're doing it and writing
.
So I think a resume and a coverletter is there to be used, as
(13:05):
I said a few minutes ago, as atool.
So when it comes to puttingdates on your resume, you don't
have to start at the beginningof your professional career, and
I'll go even one further.
You may disagree with this.
I want to hear your take.
I think you can be creative inwhat you put down for your job
titles as well.
Now, I'm not saying you shouldfabricate things, but I'm saying
(13:29):
you can massage job titles onyour resume because they're so
subjective out in the real world.
So okay.
Ricky Baez (13:38):
So let me ask you this Because I agree and
disagree?
Because the reason I agree anddisagree is because I know, from
an HR point of view, that yourjob title doesn't matter as much
as your job description.
Job titles can change and Iknow description can change, but
what really matters is what youdid.
But I guess my concern is thatif someone puts me down as a
(14:00):
reference let's say they were myprevious employee and then put
me down as a reference hey, yeah, mike was your HR director.
No, he wasn't.
He was a senior generalist.
Okay, so by operating yourselfis different, right?
Oh, I'll be talking about great, okay.
Pete Newsome (14:16):
I'm saying downgrade yourself a little bit
and doing it subtly.
Let's say you were a vicepresident of sales.
Well, maybe you were just asales leader, okay.
Ricky Baez (14:27):
I get what you're saying Absolutely.
Pete Newsome (14:29):
You're not being disingenuous by saying that, but
you are controlling theperception a little bit, which
is the goal of the resume.
If you make your resume appearas if your professional career
started in 1990, right, or I'llsay 2010 versus 1990, the
(14:52):
interviewer may be a littlesurprised to think, to realize
you're 20 years older than theythought you would be.
But that's okay.
That is going to give you theopportunity to address it live
in the moment.
So if you're worried aboutbeing considered overqualified,
then don't put your graduationdates on your resume.
(15:14):
Don't put your earliest datesof employment.
You're not obligated to do thatin any form or fashion.
Ricky Baez (15:20):
So now that you said that, because I am picking on
what you're putting down whatabout scope of past
responsibility?
Because I'm thinking if youwere a VP before and you're
looking for that next level up,you're going to put that on your
resume everything you've doneas a leader.
But if you don't want to comeacross as too qualified, you
(15:42):
could still tell the same story,but not what you did as a
leader, but what you did as anemployee because you had a boss.
So let's talk about what youdid for your boss and don't make
it sound as executive-y.
That's not a word, folks.
Don't even try to say it.
That's just made that up.
An executive is possible.
Now, I know it sounds likelying.
(16:03):
It is not lying.
You're telling the same storyin a different way, right?
So, talk about what you've doneas an employee, not what you've
done as a leader.
Would that be?
Pete Newsome (16:14):
a fair assessment?
Yeah, because what we're reallytalking about is omitting
things on your resume.
So let's just go with threeoptions.
If you're a candidate, are yougoing for a job that is at the
same level, or are you going fora job that's at a higher level
than the one that you were in?
Or, in the case of what we'retalking about today, at a lower
level than what you've been inbefore?
Proceed accordingly, just besmart about it.
(16:37):
And so, if you need to for lackof a better way to phrase it
dumb down your resume becausethat's in your interest in that
particular scenario.
By all means do it and thenexplain it live.
I mean, that's what we'rereally talking about here is use
your resume and or cover letteras a tool to get you to the
live interview and then you havean opportunity to explain.
(17:00):
I think by not doing that, thenyou can hear a point a few
minutes ago of recruiters takingjust a few seconds to look at a
resume.
It's going to appear thatyou're not qualified, because
they're going to make thosejudgments and assessments based
on what they see in the momentand they'll think this one, this
(17:22):
resume, got here by mistake.
I mean, how are you thrown out?
They're probably not going tostop and explore further if the
resume looks way too senior forthe role that they're recruiting
for.
Got you that makes sense.
Is that a flaw?
You think you think that's aflaw in the recruiting process
or is it just chalk it up to?
You know it is what it is.
Ricky Baez (17:43):
As far as how long it takes or as far as making the
initial.
Pete Newsome (17:47):
We know that recruiters will kick back
resumes that seem to be not agood fit for various reasons,
over qualify being one of them.
Ricky Baez (18:02):
If this is a flaw, then it's our fault.
If it's a flaw because we put alot of pressures and recruiters
to produce, so let's take astep back.
Right, we talked a few minutesago how long it takes to review
a resume.
Right, so that's because of thenature of the work.
So by the nature of the work,we kind of forced the recruiters
(18:23):
to make adjustments relativelyquickly, right?
So if they see something thateither says under or over
qualify, they're because of thenature of the work, because of
how leadership have pushed themto perform and produce, because
time is money, then that kind offorced the hand, kind of forced
the issue for the recruiters tomake that quick action decision
(18:43):
.
And look, they're human beings,some.
Right, we are human beings, sowe just got to make sure that we
get the right balance.
So, is it a flaw?
It is.
It's a flaw that can always usesome improvement, always.
So we just got to find betterways how to do it.
Pete Newsome (18:58):
Well, here's what we know to be definitively true
when it comes to recruiters.
Everyone needs to know this.
Recruiters are trying to findthe best match for the role, the
single best match, and they'regoing to use all of their
knowledge, experience,everything they've been exposed
to.
Some things are conscious, somethings are subconscious.
They're going to apply all ofthat within five to 10 seconds
(19:23):
when they look at a resume andmake a go or no go decision.
So you have to acknowledge that.
That's step one.
Whether there's a better way todo it, if life could be
different, that's irrelevant inthis particular scenario.
You're trying to beself-serving and the goal is to
(19:43):
get to the next level, which isan in-person interview, or at
least whatever that next levelis for that scenario.
So operate accordingly.
That's what I always tellpeople with resumes, provided
you don't fabricate anything.
That's a huge caveat that hasto be in place, right?
Because if there's something onyour resume, you have to be
able to defend it, and it's gotto be real.
(20:04):
Now I also want to use this asan opportunity to give a little
commercial use a third-partyrecruiter because we know that
these things are going to comeup.
If you're a third-partyrecruiter, your job is to sell
your candidate once you'vedetermined that they're the best
fit for the role, and I alwaystook the approach and encouraged
(20:27):
my team to do this today topoint out whatever may be
perceived as a flaw, to addressthat on the front end with their
client, and that's what I usedto do with my client.
So, ricky, if I knew that youwere, if I was submitting you
for a candidate that required abachelor's degree and you didn't
have a bachelor's degree butyou had experience that more
(20:49):
than compensated for it, thefirst thing out of my mouth
would be to let them know I knowRicky doesn't have a bachelor's
degree, but here's why thatdoesn't matter.
Now I have to understand myclient well enough to know that
you know, if I'm submitting youto be, you have to be hired as a
medical doctor, and I say youdon't have a bachelor's degree.
Well, that's a problem, right,but in many cases it's a
(21:12):
subjective requirement it's niceto have.
Sometimes it is, in theory, ahard requirement, but it's not
really a hard requirement, right, it's just something that the
company says is a hardrequirement.
So we have to understand all ofthese things and then sell
around it.
Now, good recruiters also goingto know whether they're wasting
their time with that, if ittruly is a hard requirement.
(21:35):
So you have to know that first.
But there's very few, if any,perfect candidates out there.
Everyone has a flaw almosteveryone anyway and so I want to
highlight those flaws, becausemy logic has always been if I
tell you what the problem iswith the candidate, you can't
use it against me later.
So let me tell you what theproblem is.
(21:56):
The worst thing about thecandidate have a very compelling
reason as to why it doesn'tmatter, and then we're just
going to be left talking aboutthe good.
So I always want to get the badout of the way up front.
Ricky Baez (22:07):
So, pete, let's make a real, a real defined
distinction between a goodstaffing agency and a crappy one
.
Here's why I'm bringing that up,because what you just brought
up you just brought up a lot oftime, a lot of effort that it
takes for the recruiter to getto that level of information, to
have that communication withthe client.
(22:28):
Look, here's why I think thisperson is perfect ABC.
Here's why I think it's not ABC.
It's an agent right, versus acrappy one that just they just
want to get paid for sendingthem resumes.
Here you go, whether they'rewith the organization for 30
days or 30 years, they don'tcare.
They just want to get the youknow, be able to send an invoice
for that candidate Versus agood one that they don't focus
(22:52):
on just filling the seats.
They focus on filling the rightseats that's made just for the
client.
That's going to last them along time.
That's a really gooddistinction to make, because
there's some really good ones,like Four Corners, and there's
some really crappy ones outthere that really do a crappy
job by the client.
Pete Newsome (23:08):
Well, no one's a bad recruiter for very long,
right?
If you operate that way, youwon't stay with your
organization very long.
You probably won't stay in theindustry very long.
You have to have a long-termperspective.
When you're speaking withcandidates about what they want,
Is it just as when you'respeaking with a client about
what they want and need.
(23:28):
You have to consider both sides,and my philosophy has always
been and always will be bad newsearly is good news.
Let's get it all out upfront.
If let's say the hours aren'tattractive, then I'm going to
tell the candidate about thehours right up front.
If it's a super intenseenvironment and we know that a
lot of people will be turned offby that, we're going to tell
(23:50):
that to the candidates early inthe conversation.
Because if we get all the badnews out of the way, we're only
left with good.
The same thing happens when youpresent a candidate, and part of
recruiter's role is to first beconvinced themselves, and then
you have to sell the candidate.
So I'm not big on selling acandidate on a job.
I'm not big on selling a clienton the wrong candidate.
(24:14):
But once I've been convincedthat this is the right person,
if I'm a good recruiter and I amthen I'm going to go to the
wall for my candidate.
And if they don't have a degreeand I know that doesn't matter
I'm not going to let that get inthe way.
If they've been in a seniorrole and now they're wanting to
take a more junior role or takea big pay cut because it's a job
(24:37):
that they want now, making nomistake, I'm going to question
all of that as well.
If I see the VP from theFortune 500 company wanting to
take a staff level job, I'mgoing to ask about it.
Of course I am.
Why wouldn't I?
It's justifiable, it's rational, but I'm not going to let it
get in the way of an otherwisegreat candidate.
Ricky Baez (24:58):
So let me ask this piece.
So I did the interview.
Let's say I am that candidate,I'm that candidate that was the
VP for 20 years, right, and nowI'm looking to Don Gritt.
I made it through theapplication process.
I made it through thepre-screen.
Now I'm in an in-personinterview.
Do you suggest that I just keepanything to myself about
mentioning about beingoverqualified?
(25:20):
Should I wait for the recruiterto bring it up?
I know I answered this earlier.
Pete Newsome (25:24):
I think you put it front and center.
Ricky Baez (25:26):
Front and center right.
That's what I was thinking.
Pete Newsome (25:28):
That's what I was thinking.
That's what I was thinking.
You have to anticipate what'sgoing to happen, and I think
we've defined already that thisperception exists, this bias
exists.
Okay, fine, Now you can say andsome people will say, we see
this on LinkedIn all the time.
Well, I don't want to go workfor a company that thinks that
way.
Okay, a recruiter, multiplerecruiters, multiple employees
(25:52):
does not make up a company.
And so if you poll, if it'smore than a company of one,
you're going to have differingperspectives and views and
opinions on things political,social, you name it.
So don't let that get in theway of an otherwise good
opportunity.
Right, People don't know thatthey're doing something wrong.
They think they're doing theright thing.
(26:12):
So don't let that bother youtoo much.
If you're a candidate who says,well, if they don't want me as
I am, I don't want to go workfor that organization, that's
very short-sighted.
And if you look beneath thecovers of, or in everyone's
what's in everyone's head, youprobably wouldn't want to go
work for anyone else.
Ricky Baez (26:28):
I was thinking it, Heather, I'm going to say it,
but you're right.
Pete Newsome (26:32):
So we have to get past that and so, yeah, I think
you do want to put front andcenter.
You anticipate the problem andthen you have a way to counter
it.
So if you're that VP, we keepusing this scenario that's now
taking a staff level job, youneed to address it and say you
might wonder why I'm doing this.
I would wonder if I were you,but here's why and here's my
(26:53):
story.
Yeah, you need to have a story.
It needs to be real.
It has to be something morethan well.
I'm waiting for somethingbetter to come along, because
that just confirms theirsuspicion on the front end.
Ricky Baez (27:06):
I love meeting, I love how you're like.
It has to be real.
Isn't it sad that we have tosay that, pete, the story has
folks?
He's right, it's got to be alegit story right, because, just
how everybody in this world hasa BS meter right you do, I do
(27:26):
and it's almost 95% calibrated.
So you know, when somebody'stelling you a story that's
disingenuous, so other peoplewill as well.
You have to make sure the storyis authentic and it's real and
it makes sense for what you'relooking to do.
Pete Newsome (27:43):
Well, I've seen some posts on LinkedIn that
lately I'm sure you have too ofpeople who are feeling desperate
right now and will make a postsaying I'll take anything, it
doesn't matter what it is.
Well, it's not serving themwell, because that is the
opposite of what we're talkingabout right now.
(28:03):
That just confirms thesuspicion that someone says well
, gosh, ricky's saying he'lltake anything right now.
Do I want to be his backup tothe backup to the backup plan,
knowing that the next timesomething good comes along when
the market shifts a little bit,rick, you'll be gone.
I mean, maybe if I hire youunder those terms, but I'm going
(28:27):
to know, or at least assume,that you're going to jump when
you have the opportunity.
And so if you're listening andyou're a candidate who's put
that kind of message out there,delete it.
Yep Again.
Ricky Baez (28:42):
No recruiter in their right mind who's
recruiting for a permanentfull-time position is ever going
to reach out to anybody likethat, unless it's to tell them
don't communicate, don't putthat out there.
Oh, you know what?
Maybe do put that out there,that way recruiters know who to
interview, who not to interview.
Pete Newsome (29:00):
Well, it's one of the strange things that's
happening on LinkedIn right nowis that gets so much attention
when you put a message?
out to me, Naturally it's peoplewho want to help each other.
We want to lend a hand to thosewho need it the most, but at
the same time, you have to showprofessional confidence and
strength to some degree, notdesperation, when you're looking
(29:21):
for a job.
Now, that's talked about a loton LinkedIn these days.
Right, we know that with theopen to work banner, is that
show desperation?
And if so, is that okay?
Is it bad?
I don't really have much of anopinion on that.
I mean, I could argue bothsides of it, to be completely
frank, because we know thatsometimes managers will see that
and think well, I'm moreinterested in a passive
(29:44):
candidate.
That's always been the case.
It's not tied to a banner, it'sjust tied to recruiting in
general, and so you don't wantto create hurdles for yourself
to overcome.
I think that's the message thatI'd like to deliver there.
Ricky Baez (29:59):
No, I'm with you.
It's a good message to sendthat way.
People out there know exactlywhat kind of bait will attract
that recruiter, but, at the sametime, what a recruiter goes
through, and you know a lot of.
It's like going out to buy acar.
A lot of people put a strategytogether based on their own
finances and don't put any typeof thought into the strategy on
(30:22):
what's in it for the dealer,right?
So you've got to put on yourhand of what's in it for the
recruiter.
How can I make this as easy forthe recruiter as possible?
And this is one of the bestways.
One of the things that you justsaid, pete, that I think it's
crucial.
If you think that your resume,your information, is going to
come across and raise a red flagof overqualified, I address it
(30:43):
head on.
Don't tip toe around it.
Exactly how you said.
I like how you said it.
You're probably wondering whyI'm interviewing and you're
probably wondering why I'mwilling to take a pay cut, or
here's why, right, I've got aPS4 addiction to keep up with
PlayStation 4.
I couldn't think of a 5-1.
It's okay, gta 6 is coming out.
So, yeah, it's one of thosethings that you have to be aware
(31:04):
, and you have to know yourworth also.
You have to know how muchyou're worth and how much of a
cut you're willing to take.
But Pete, this one's big, and Iknow you are a big fan of this.
I'm a big fan of this too.
Tap into your network If youbelieve that your information is
going to come across, and raisethat red flag.
(31:25):
Try to find somebody whoalready works there, who knows
who you are, who knows how youwork, who is going to vouch for
you.
There is no better way for youto, as a recruiter, to assess
somebody else's skill set andwhether they're going to survive
in an environment or not,unless somebody within the
organization can vouch for you.
So tap into your network.
(31:45):
Always start working on those.
Pete Newsome (31:48):
I'm glad you brought that up, because if you
have that concern and you haveto put yourself in the shoes of
the person who's viewing yourresume and be pragmatic, just
because you know that it's whatyou want or what you need, you
have to assume that the personis going to look for flaws.
(32:10):
There's two things when youlook at a resume, you look for
good, you want to jump off thepage that the person's a good
fit, and you want to look forobvious red flags.
That's what every recruiterdoes.
Who's not looking for a resumefor a position?
That's a needle in a haystack.
We're talking about most jobsthese days.
(32:32):
Get lots of applicants and soyou look what are the ones that
are just clearly qualified andthe ones that have red flags.
So that's just human nature andthat's how it goes.
If you don't have someone touse internally to share your
message and I think that's great.
Hey, ricky, I applied to thisjob at ABC company where you
(32:55):
work.
Would you mind being areference for me, a personal
reference?
Call HR.
Here's who the manager is.
You should absolutely do that.
Ricky may get a referral feefor doing it, who knows?
But I also highly recommendconsidering using a third party
recruiter in these scenariosback to what we were talking
about a few minutes ago.
If you're applying directly fora job, you can't be nearly as
(33:20):
aggressive as a recruiter can be.
I'm not going to just send aresume over and sit back and
wait.
But if you are an applicant,you apply, you hope for the best
and you wait.
Third party recruiters don't dothat.
We pick up the phone, we findout who the manager is.
We can be appropriatelyaggressive and persistent in
(33:42):
doing that.
So I would recommend any jobseeker who's having trouble
finding a job, who isexperienced and worried that
they're being deemedoverqualified and that's one of
the reasons they're not gettinga lot of feedback or interview
requests Partner with a thirdparty recruiter who can be
(34:04):
aggressive on your behalf.
That's right.
Ricky Baez (34:06):
It can be very effective, and we said this a
couple of weeks ago.
The reason a third partyrecruiter is the way to go is
because that's what they do fromthe time they wake up to the
time.
They do that for a living,whereas for a regular
organization, this is somethingthey have to do in order to
survive.
This is what they do for aliving, so leave it to the
(34:28):
experts, let them take care ofit and let them find a candidate
for that position that's goingto give you a good return on
investment.
Pete Newsome (34:37):
Even in.
The last thing I want to saytoday is we're at the end of
2023, very tight job market fora lot of positions in the
professional space.
You have to consider supply anddemand and take a pragmatic
view there too, and answer thequestion for yourself first, how
(34:59):
likely is it that you're goingto be pulled out of the pile?
How much is your resume goingto jump out of the recruiters
compared to the other 100, 200,300 that they're considering?
And then you may have to pivoton your approach, on what's
realistic, what you're pursuing.
I mean, I'm not trying to bedoom and gloom with this, but
(35:22):
it's not about my opinion andthis is not a subjective thing.
It's an objective data rightnow that indicates in some
professions there aresignificantly more jobs than
people.
We know that on the other sideof COVID, there's a lot of
hiring I'm sorry, more peoplethan jobs.
There's a lot more jobs inpositions.
I want to clarify it because forso much of the last couple of
(35:43):
years we've talked about theopposite.
That's true.
I mean, a year and a half agoit was an employee's market.
Some rare instances it is.
It's simple supply and demandright now, and so if you're
seeing that there's hundreds andhundreds of applicants for
every job you think you'requalified for.
It may be time to step back andconsider a different route.
(36:07):
That's a little bit of adifferent podcast, different
episode, but we'd be remiss ifwe didn't bring it up because
it's all part of the equation.
I think a lot of recruitersright now, in particular space
where I obviously operate, arelooking for jobs right now and
it's a saturated market.
People are dealing with theseconsiderations right now being
(36:29):
overqualified or deemedoverqualified.
How do they deal with it?
It's a time-sensitiveconversation.
There's not a lot of easyanswers out there in some of the
situations.
Ricky Baez (36:43):
That's the best way to put it.
There's not a lot of easyanswers, but the answers are out
there, even if they're not easy.
I know these are tough pills toswallow, but look, these are
the things you have to do.
Again, unless you are the top 2percent of any organization or
any school, you really have toput some elbow greasing to get
(37:05):
noticed.
Then this is what happens.
If you do get noticed, eventhen you still have some work to
do because now you've got somepotential red flags out there.
Folks know your worth, knowexactly what your point is in
applying for a position.
Again, as soon as a recruitergets the idea or gets a feeling
(37:26):
that you're just there for justa stepping stone until you get
your next big thing, they're notgoing to continue on.
Don't waste your time, just howyou don't want them to waste
your time.
Know your worth, talk to thefolks and just make sure what
you're looking for.
That's the best way.
I can recap that, pete.
Pete Newsome (37:45):
Yeah, and then be appropriately aggressive.
Right, you're on your own orthrough a third party.
Anticipate the challenge,anticipate the hesitancy that's
going to come if you seem to begoing after a job that's beneath
your skill set or yourexperience or your compensation
in the past.
Just know it's human nature andthat it can be overcome, but
(38:09):
you have to tackle it head on.
I think that's the best way Ican close on this.
Ricky Baez (38:14):
Can I just add one more thing to it?
Just one more quick thing.
If you find a recruiter thatwould tell you that, hey, you
just overqualified.
You're trying to explainyourself and they still hold on
to that assessment Maybe you'reoverqualified, Walk away.
Yes, there's something.
There's a red flag there foryou about the job environment
(38:35):
you're about to walk into, sojust walk away Again.
That's not an easy answer todigest, especially if you need
work A lot of people need workright now.
But also just how they'reinterviewing you and watching
you how you answer thosequestions, you should be doing
the same with that, Absolutely.
Pete Newsome (38:51):
All right, I think we're good.
I think that's it.
We'd love to hear from youQuestions at zengeggcom.
If you have questions for us onthis topic or have other topics
you'd like us to talk about, orhit us up on social media.
We're pretty easy to find onzengegg, especially on our
LinkedIn account.
We're very active.
So we'd love to hear back andtake any suggestions and
(39:13):
comments and we'll run with themand we'll do a Q&A here soon.
I think we're due, ricky.
Ricky Baez (39:19):
Yes sir, we definitely are.
We must have like thousands inthe bag waiting.
Pete Newsome (39:24):
We do.
I switched computers two weeksago and I know they're piling up
.
I haven't even been deep intothat email inbox.
There's a few hundred things inthere, okay.
Ricky Baez (39:34):
Here's what we need to do, Pete, and this is for
everybody to look forward to,and folks help me on on this,
right what I'm about to say.
I need you to email Pete, textsome set of messages.
We need to do this.
I think we need to set up a Q&Asession, but your address has
Santa Claus and you're openingup the questions like a kid
sends Santa Claus a letter.
(39:55):
You have to do that Dress theSanta Claus, get the beard and
we'll get all the questions andcards where you get to open them
from your toy sack.
Pete Newsome (40:02):
How's that?
You're halfway there?
Why am I dressing Santa Claus?
You just have to keep thatgoing and make it white.
Ricky Baez (40:09):
You know what Boom?
I'll do that.
I'll be Santa Claus.
There you go.
See, I'm dressed like the elfanyway, you already dressed as
the elf.
You know what?
I'll go on Amazon and get me aSanta Claus suit.
Pete Newsome (40:20):
All right.
Well, if we get enough, we'lldo it.
We'll figure it out.
I like it.
Great idea, ricky.
Goodbye for now.
Have a good one.
Listen to everyone, bye, bye.
Is that the door of this room?
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Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Special Summer Offer: Exclusively on Apple Podcasts, try our Dateline Premium subscription completely free for one month! With Dateline Premium, you get every episode ad-free plus exclusive bonus content.
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy, Jess Hilarious, And Charlamagne Tha God!
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.