May 22, 2024 • 32 mins
Ever found yourself staring at a blank document, the cursor blinking mockingly as you try to encapsulate your career on a single page? Fear not, as Stephen Greet of BeamJobs steps up to the plate in our latest episode, bringing his tech-savvy approach to the age-old quandary of resume writing. We tear down the intimidating walls of drafting the perfect resume, offering guidance for those struggling to showcase their professional journey.
We start this episode by dissecting the elements of a standout resume, including the surprisingly overlooked part: personalization. With Stephen's expertise, we cover the essential steps to crafting a resume that tells your story and resonates with hiring managers. We emphasize the persuasive power of numbers and the critical need for clarity, ensuring that your resume won't be the one lost in the abyss of the 'apply now' button.
To conclude this episode, we discuss the resume builder created by BeamJobs, revealing how its straightforward, step-by-step assistance helps job applicants succeed. This game-changing tool helped Pete's son breeze through his graduate school application.
Additional Resources:
- BeamJobs
- Zengig's Sample Resumes and Recommendations
- Resume Action Verbs Recruiters Want to See
- How to Find Keywords in a Job Description to Use in Your Resume
🧠WANT TO LEARN MORE? Be sure to subscribe and check out https://zengig.com/
👋 FOLLOW PETE NEWSOME ONLINE:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/petenewsome/
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@PeteNewsome
👋 FOLLOW STEPHEN GREET ONLINE:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/stephen-greet/
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Pete Newsome (00:00):
You're listening to the Finding Zen Career in
Podcast.
I'm Pete Newsome and my guesttoday is Stephen Greet,
co-founder of BeamJobs.
Stephen, how are you today?
Stephen Greet (00:07):
I'm doing really well, Pete.
How are you?
Pete Newsome (00:09):
I'm doing great.
It's so wonderful to have youon.
Beamjobs is the best platformthat's out there today for
resumes.
Why don't you tell us a littlebit about BeamJobs and how you
came to start the company?
Stephen Greet (00:20):
Yeah, so I'm happy to go into my background
and my spiel.
So the company was actuallystarted by my identical twin
brother and I, so I was at acompany called Chegg in data.
He was an engineer at a littlecompany called Google.
We both always wanted to starta company together, didn't
really know what we wanted to do, so back in 2018, we both took
the plunge and just sort of quitour jobs cold.
We knew we wanted to dosomething in the hiring space,
(00:42):
but we didn't know what thatlooked like.
So for the first two years, wejust helped companies hire
technical talent.
So hire engineers, hire datascientists and a common problem
that we always saw was that we'dhave really, really qualified
people who would apply to theroles that we helped fill, but
the resumes just didn't reflectthe quality of the candidate
that they were.
So we set out to build softwareto try to solve that.
(01:02):
So back in 2020, we launchedthe first version of our resume
product, the whole premise beingthat we use data to make sure
that your resume gets you moreinterviews, and over time, we've
grown quite a bit.
So we've just crossed over 2million resumes created on the
platform, and the beauty of thesystem is that the more that
people use the platform, thebetter it gets over time, and
our goal is just to helpeveryone put their best foot
(01:23):
forward, because resume writingis stressful.
It's not something you do a lot, but it has such an outsized
impact on your career earningsand your career trajectory.
Pete Newsome (01:31):
I was looking at your homepage and the headline
that's on there currently says aresume that removes stress.
Right, I mean, that's such asimple thing to say, but
powerful, because resumes add ahuge degree of success, or
stress rather, to candidates.
Why is that?
I mean, why are resumes such adifficult thing for individuals?
Stephen Greet (01:54):
Look, let's say it's something you are going to
get a job or not get a job basedon something that you do maybe
once every five years.
You're not in there.
Your day-to-day job is notcreating resumes, right?
Your day-to-day job is doingyour job, but you're judged by
this document or this artifactthat is completely divorced from
the actual job that you do.
Right, it's not about your job,it's how you talk about your
(02:16):
job.
So the reason it's so stressfulis how do you sum up your career
or your life on this one-pagepiece of paper and really make
sure that you're putting yourbest foot forward?
It's just not something that wedo a lot, but again, it has
such a massive impact on yourcareer trajectory and your
lifetime career earnings andit's just not something that we
do a lot.
So no one knows the bestpractice, because there's not a
lot of objective best practice.
It's sort of jumping fromsubjective opinion to subjective
(02:39):
opinion, completely divorcedfrom the reality of what works
to get interviews and whatdoesn't.
And when you're looking at thatblank page of paper, you feel
that weight on your shouldersincredibly, because you know how
important it is and you justdon't know how to crack the code
, to get started and to get theinterview.
Pete Newsome (02:52):
Yeah, and it's almost like the better you've,
meaning you don't need to createa resume because your career
reputation has taken care ofitself, you get referrals and
recommended to places, or you'vethrived for a long time as one
organization.
You're almost at a disadvantagewhen it comes to creating
resumes, which is a cruel bit ofirony, I think 100% and trends
(03:16):
are constantly changing right.
Stephen Greet (03:18):
Imagine you got a job eight years ago.
You've been at the company foreight years and now you're
reentering the workforce andChatGPT is a thing.
Where do you even begin tostart thinking about how to
present your resume with moderntechnology or adapting to
current trends?
It's just the more you stay ata company, the more
disadvantaged you are, unlessyou're at the cream of the crop
and you're getting inundatedwith inbound LinkedIn messages
(03:40):
with job offers.
I think that's a rarity and Ithink people think that's more
common than it is, but it's therare candidate Most people do
have to put in that work, createtheir resume, build their
network to really land the jobthat they want.
Pete Newsome (03:55):
Well, the better your resume, the more
opportunities are going to comeyour way.
I think everyone canacknowledge that.
But it still creates a bigchallenge to those who don't
know where to start, and that'swhere you guys come in right.
Stephen Greet (04:03):
That's exactly the goal.
I think people see theirsuccess in the job search as a
reflection of their self-worthand I think that's most acutely
felt by people entering theworkforce.
So recent grads or new grads,people who are laid off and
people who are looking for acareer change.
Because it's exactly what youwere saying, pete.
It's that first job, getting in, breaking through, is the
(04:24):
hardest part, and once you dothat it becomes a bit easier.
But it's just overwhelming toget started and not sure what to
include, specifically when youfeel like you have no relevant
experience or no experience toget you the job.
It can just feel almostimpossible.
Pete Newsome (04:38):
So you think about resumes more than I do.
I think about youngprofessionals a whole lot.
Why don't we help them withthis in school?
Have you thought about whythere's such a gap between what
you need and what you'reactually getting in terms of
education?
Stephen Greet (04:52):
Don't even get me started on this.
This is one of my hot buttonissues.
The name of the game forcolleges is not necessarily job
preparedness, right, the name ofthe game for a lot of colleges
is to get higher articulation toget more students to keep that
revenue coming in, notnecessarily with an interest or
an importance placed onplacement.
So there's this massive gapbetween the incentives that
(05:14):
colleges have where they want toget more students in the door
and the incentives of thestudent themselves where they're
laden with tens of thousands, ahundred thousands of dollars of
debt without the preparednessto turn that debt into
meaningful income to then payoff the debt.
It's just this difference ofincentives between students and
the leaders of the colleges.
Pete Newsome (05:31):
Yeah, and you and I talked about this before
recording.
We probably should have hitrecord.
I'm not sure any college wouldever talk to either one of us if
we had.
Maybe it's better that wedidn't.
But we share a perspective thatstudents or recent grads need
more help than they're gettingfrom those who are educating
them.
So where do they begin?
I mean, start at the basics.
If you're a new grad, whereshould you begin with your
(05:54):
resume?
Stephen Greet (05:55):
So I can talk sort of anecdotally about my
experience, even right.
So I graduated with a degreefrom math.
I had no idea what I could dowith a degree in math, right?
So where do you start?
I just I knew I needed income,I knew I needed a job.
So the first thing I did is aGoogle search what can I do with
a math degree?
But that was my job, that waswhat I did.
I just did a Google search andfrom the list of five job titles
oh, data analyst sounds cool.
(06:16):
And that first thing that Iwould recommend is starting with
identifying potential jobs thatyou can take on.
Right, it doesn't have to bejobs that you're in love with,
but let's just start with a listof possible job titles.
If you're a marketer right,what are all of the things that
you can do in marketing?
It is an incredibly big fieldwith almost infinite job titles.
(06:39):
So first you have to lock in onsome potential job titles and
then from there, you can reallystart digging into the research
Beyond that, figuring out customjobs, how to customize your
resume.
But it really starts withfiguring out what your
possibilities are based on yourdegree.
Pete Newsome (06:55):
Yeah, I've been in touch with a lot of new grads
over the past week and a lot ofthem don't even know what they
want to pursue, so they havethis degree.
They know they need to figureout their career opportunities,
but they don't know where tostart.
And I give similar advicebecause you can't hit a target
if you don't know what thetarget is, let alone if it's
(07:15):
going to move, and we know itwill move.
Career paths are winding, but alot of these guys are saying I
don't even know where to begin.
So we're not going to solvethat today necessarily, but
there are lots of assessmentsout there for young people and
that I agree with you a hundredpercent that that is a very,
very important first stepbuilding a resume and pursuing
(07:36):
job opportunities.
Talk to me for a minute aboutwhat are the important
components of a resume forsomeone who's just starting out.
Stephen Greet (07:45):
Yeah.
So once you have that level ofspecificity right, like you said
, you can't create a resumethat's going to work for a
software engineering role and anHR role.
They're completely differentdisciplines.
So once you have an idea of thekind of jobs you're going for,
the first piece of advice I gofor is read 10, 15, 20 job
descriptions right.
Find job posts for that kind ofjob.
Understand the typicalresponsibilities, understand the
(08:08):
skills of the trade, and hiringmanagers at this phase of your
career are not expecting you tobe a full breath expert.
You don't have to know 25skills right.
Pitch yourself as a master ofone or two skills, things that
you could actually apply on dayone of the job, because, again,
hiring managers understand thatyou don't have that relevant
(08:28):
experience yet.
So it's really aboutspecificity and trying to make
it clear that you know a couplethings that can actually add
value to the role you'reapplying for, and color that
with how you learn those skillsright.
Do you know Microsoft Excel froma school project?
Don't be afraid to include thatschool project.
I think the problem that Iencounter a lot with recent
grads is that they think theyneed to have 10 years of
(08:49):
relevant experience, but it'sjust not true.
You can make any experiencerelevant, whether it's a class
project, a volunteer initiativeright.
It shows that you take chargeand you can actually go out your
way to provide value.
Anything can be made to berelevant experience.
And don't get hung up on nothaving five years of relevant
data analysis experience, right.
That's just not the reality.
Pete Newsome (09:08):
I'm so glad you said that, because one of the
things that I've said a fewtimes lately to young grads is
it's okay to make small thingssound big.
You don't feel fraudulent indoing that, and they feel like
they're cheating the system.
But you have to do that.
You have to highlight theattributes that you have in lieu
of others, and so it'sincumbent upon you to do that
(09:32):
and it's expected, right.
I think that's as important asanything else is.
People know that a resume issomeone's best foot that they're
putting forward.
So if you're not willing to dothat for yourself, no one else
is going to do it for you.
Stephen Greet (09:44):
Yeah, let me tell you what a hiring manager
doesn't want to read.
I'm just okay to excel, right,that is not that you need to be.
The resume is the place to brag.
It's the place to really be alittle bit arrogant, a little
bit cocky.
Really talk yourself up,because it also is a reflection
of how you communicate rightWritten communication.
In businesses or in jobs.
You need to be able to voicesomething and articulate the
value that you're providing, andif you can do it on your resume
(10:06):
, it's a pretty good reflectionin that, or a pretty good
indicator that you'll be able todo it on the job, which is
incredibly, incredibly valuableto any company.
Pete Newsome (10:13):
So let's talk for a minute, then, about how
BeamJobs can help with that.
I want to talk about some otherthings that are negatives on
resumes and what to avoid, butlet's focus on the positives
first.
You're coming out of schoolminimal experience, maybe, some
internships, maybe not right,and that's pretty common too.
What does BeamJobs do to helpyou build this initial resume?
Stephen Greet (10:34):
I do a lot of writing for BeamJobs as well,
and the hardest part aboutwriting is looking at the blank
page right, not knowing where tostart.
So I think the real value thatwe can provide at BeamJobs or we
do provide is we help youovercome that cold start problem
.
We break this overwhelming taskof building a compelling resume
into micro steps that don'tfeel overwhelming at all.
We'll start simple let's askyour name, right, we'll take it
(10:55):
from there.
Ask the job title you'reapplying to.
We'll make it a reallyincremental, guided process so
you're not feeling the weight oflooking at that blank page and
figuring out what to come upwith.
And the trickiest part, I thinkfor most college students and
most people generally isfiguring out how to talk about
their experience.
And we do a lot there to giveyou recommendations and
proactive tools and tips and wescore your feedback.
Pete Newsome (11:18):
But we our aim is really make this daunting task
straightforward simple, perfect,and you guys have a lot of
sample resumes as well, which Iknow is a great way to get ideas
, and if you see what othershave done, see those
recommendations.
So talk about that for a littlebit.
Stephen Greet (11:34):
Yeah, we have examples across every profession
you could probably imagine,across all levels of seniority,
and what really matters here isthat these are not spun out of
cloth right, they are what works.
They are data-driven.
We know what works to getinterviews, we know what doesn't
work to get interviewsspecifically on your resume,
specifically for people who areentering the workforce.
So we take that data, distillit into practical examples so to
(11:58):
again help you overcome thatcold start problem of looking at
a blank screen.
Pete Newsome (12:03):
So where do you get your data from?
How do you gather that?
Stephen Greet (12:06):
It's a beautiful cyclical process, right?
So the more that people use ourplatform, we know, hey, you're
an entry-level marketer lookingfor a job.
We know that you applied for Xjobs with this resume.
We know you got an interview atY number of places, right?
So the more that people use ourtool, the better our system
becomes, because we're learningwhat works and what doesn't.
So now the beauty is all of thedata comes from the people who
(12:29):
are using our platform and, withover 2 million resumes created,
at this point, we have just areal huge corpus of data to know
what works and what doesn't toget that interview.
Pete Newsome (12:40):
So, when you look at what works, is there any
consistent themes that you seethat you'd want to share with
anyone listening?
Stephen Greet (12:46):
I would love to.
The number one far and awaymost likely indicator of whether
you're going to get aninterview or not is whether you
quantified your experience, andI know this can be overwhelming,
specifically for fresh grads orpeople who are breaking the
workforce.
I don't have any relevantexperience.
How do I quantify it?
It doesn't have to be asoverwhelming as you're thinking,
right.
So let's say you're looking fora marketing role at a college
(13:10):
and as part of a class project,you did a pseudo PR announcement
for a made up company, right.
You can turn that into metrics,right?
Wrote a press release thatgarner 17% more views than
baseline, right?
No one is expecting thesemetrics that you include in your
resume to be wholly accurate.
You just have to be able tomake sure that you're
(13:31):
positioning yourself, thatyou're talking to the pain
points of the company.
Companies want quantifiableresults.
If you're also focusing onquantifiable results on your
resume, you're just removing thedoubt from the recruiter's mind
and you're going to get mostlikely going to get an interview
right.
You want to make therecruiter's job easy.
Convince them you can do thejob.
There's no better way to dothat than numbers.
Pete Newsome (13:50):
You just said a phrase that is one that I repeat
often when I'm talking aboutresumes or a profile on LinkedIn
or any interaction you havewhen you're a job seeker is make
the recruiter's job easy, andwhat that means to me is don't
have them guess, don't ask themto try to put you know, fill in
a missing puzzle piece.
You want to spell it out.
(14:11):
So you, you, what you were.
I usually think of it in termsof red flags and I want to get
to that in a second, but whatyou're saying is spell out your
highlights very, very clearlyfor them.
Why is that a struggle?
For most people, I mean, it'sintuitive, right, and when you
hear it, you think, of course, Ishould do that.
Is it just a discomfort withtrying to make yourself sound
better than you believe you are?
(14:32):
Is that?
Is that why?
Stephen Greet (14:33):
I think it's that , but I also think it's an
editing problem, right, the moreyou write.
I think what you learn the moreyou write is that it's much
harder to be concise in yourwriting than it is to be super
lengthy, right, when you have towrite with concision and write
a highlight reel, you have to dosome cutting, you have to leave
some on the cutting room floor,right.
And I think new gradsespecially are a bit insecure
(14:53):
that they think they have toinclude everything they've ever
done, such that when it's timeto cut they think everything is
too precious.
And it's really that process ofediting and trying to cut the
fat that makes it so much harderthan sort of just going with
your five-page resume with everysingle experience you've ever
heard about or read about ordone.
It's that editing process whichcan be difficult.
Pete Newsome (15:14):
So you bring up something that I have to ask the
age-old question One-pageresume or can it be more than
one page for a new grad?
Stephen Greet (15:23):
For new grads keep it one page right.
If you're going to two pages asa new grad, unless you have six
or seven relevant internshipexperiences, it just seems like
you're adding a lot of fat, alot of fluff to the resume.
Specifically for new gradsright.
If you have more experience, itcan definitely go on to the
second page, but new gradsthere's no reason that your
resume needs to go on to thesecond page.
(15:44):
It but new grads there's noreason that your resume needs to
go on onto the second page.
Pete Newsome (15:48):
It just means you need to do a bit more editing.
Now, most grads do have thatinitial problem that you've been
referencing, which is notenough content, right, but I see
some that do have a lot.
There's a tendency to put inpersonal things, hobbies, right,
volunteer activities.
Where do you land on that for anew grad?
Stephen Greet (16:05):
So I think it's actually very relevant on the
type of company and type of goalyou're applying to.
So a little story on me.
So before I worked at Chegg,which is a tech company, I
worked at Geico, right, a big,stodgy insurance player.
And what I did in college is Iplayed a lot of poker, but I
didn't just play poker to gamble, right, I did it in a very
data-driven, analytical way toimprove my game.
(16:25):
So when I applied to techcompanies, I actually included
that as a talking point.
I played poker, but I talkedabout my strategy and my
strategy of using data to becomea better poker player, and that
got me so many interviews andit was a massive talking point
on interviews, to the point thatthe reason I got the job is
because that was my in at Cheggfor the hiring managers.
We talked about that and I gotto dive into more of my
(16:46):
analytical philosophy.
So if you can position anexperience that you have and
make it relevant to the roleyou're applying to, I say, by
all means, include it, becauseyou know what stood out when I
was applying to jobs against 100other people that I played
poker right.
That wasn't on everyone'sresume and I made it relevant.
So if you can make it relevant,I say go for it.
Pete Newsome (17:03):
That's a great way to phrase it and I'm really
glad you told that story andwere you good at poker.
Stephen Greet (17:09):
I was pretty decent, yeah, I consistently
generated return on investment.
I tapped out a little bit aftercollege when the career took
over, but it was a nice littlehobby in college, my first foray
into turning my math skillsinto a bit of money.
Pete Newsome (17:22):
Nice, nice, good for you.
Well, but I do think that issuch an important point to make
it's okay to have personalthings, provided you make them
relevant and that you phrased itperfectly.
So that's a mistake that I seea lot where I don't know what
else to say.
So I'm just going to startputting things down, and it's
all very consistent what you'resaying, which is how, by the way
(17:44):
, all of this applies toexperienced professionals too.
I'm asking you a lot ofquestions about new grads,
because we know that that is whoreally struggles the most in
just starting a resume.
But I see these challengesapply to people who are very
seasoned, very experienced, andit really never goes away, does
it?
Stephen Greet (18:05):
It really doesn't .
And, to your point, you have tomake it relevant.
Everyone watches Netflix,everyone watches TV, but you
can't put that on your resumebecause it's not going to stand
out, it's not going to be atalking point.
If you can make it relevant, itcan apply across the board, to
both entry-level people,seasoned people.
If you can get a conversationgoing and make it a draw, I
don't think it ever hurts, aslong as you're drawing attention
for the right reasons reasons.
Pete Newsome (18:26):
Yeah, no doubt.
And what about volunteeractivity?
You know that because on onehand you could argue, hey, that
makes me look like a goodcitizen, and it does.
I would argue that it's not themost relevant.
So what's your, what's yourtake on that?
Stephen Greet (18:39):
So I think, especially as a new grad, right,
you want to show that you canhandle responsibility, you can
have you're a bit independent,and I think volunteer work is a
great example of that.
Right, did you show up everyday or every week for four years
of your college degree and helppeople, or help show up and
take initiative and own projects?
(18:59):
I think that's exceptional andI think that's a great way to
position yourself as someonewho's responsible and can handle
that responsibility on yourresume.
So it all comes back to thispoint.
I'm going to sound like abroken record, but can you make
it relevant, right?
Hiring managers want people whoare responsible, who are going
to show up and do the work.
Anything that's evidence ofthat, including volunteer
activity, can be made relevantto highlight that you check
(19:20):
those boxes.
Pete Newsome (19:21):
Perfect.
I love it as far as looking atthings as you go forward in your
career.
I tell people and so some ofthis is a sanity check for me
right?
I want to see if the advice Igive as a recruiter has been the
right advice as a true resumeprofessional is you want to
highlight your best attributes.
You want to put those up top.
(19:42):
So I tell students if you'renew on the job market
professionally, put youreducation up top, because that
is probably the most relevantthing you've done.
But when you're old, like me,your education is almost
insignificant.
Right, bury it at the bottom.
No one cares what degree I hadin a few years ago.
Stephen Greet (20:00):
I could not agree more with this, and it's one of
my pet peeves about resumes iswhen you're a seasoned
professional of five, 10 yearsof experience and you're still
talking about your GPA or theclasses you took in undergrad.
It's just not relevant.
Lead with your strength.
Lead with what's relevant.
If you just graduated with asoftware engineering degree,
that is your headline.
That is the thing that makesyou most qualified or most
(20:20):
likely to get an interview.
And again, as you progress inyour career, that becomes
inverted.
Your relevant work experiencebecomes the reason you get an
interview.
So, exactly to your point, Peteit's lead with your home run.
Lead with the thing that'sgoing to grab the interviewer's
attention or convince them thatyou are worth interviewing.
Pete Newsome (20:36):
What about objective statements?
I see some people recommendagainst them.
I'm a fan.
I think the more clearly youcan spell out what your purpose
is with creating and thensending someone your resume, the
better.
But not everyone shares thatview.
Stephen Greet (20:54):
I am wholeheartedly in agreement, as
long as you're customizing itfor each job you're applying to.
I'm sure you had the experiencethat I had as well.
When you're reviewing 100, 200resumes, the resume objectives
become this blur of genericnonsense.
But I think a little, a littlehack that we've identified is if
you mentioned the company nameof the company you're applying
to in the objective, you'reimmediately more likely to get
an interview right.
So it's all about thatspecificity, because, believe me
(21:14):
, every other objective is I amhighly qualified for this role,
so you have to make it like it'syou're writing to one person
and one company.
It cannot be generic, otherwiseyou're just wasting real estate
.
Pete Newsome (21:25):
Yeah, and that is a huge proponent of that where
the more specific you make yourmessaging and I'm going to put
you on the spot now Will youcome back and report with me
again to talk about coverletters, because I don't want to
hijack what we're talking aboutnow, but I'm coining this
phrase, stephen cover story.
I think you need to tell yourstory specific to the individual
(21:48):
job and the person who'sviewing your resume to determine
whether they should pick yoursout of the pile or quickly move
on, because we know you get what.
Five, six, seven seconds that'show long a recruiter is going
to look at a resume and make adecision.
Stephen Greet (22:01):
Yeah, you have about six seconds.
So if your objective is fluff,the recruiter is going to see
that they're going toimmediately move on and be a
little bit more dismissive asopposed to, let's say, you're
applying to beam jobs and you'releading with beam jobs on your,
your objective.
I'm reading that.
You have my attention right.
Make sure it's standing up,make sure it's custom is
customized and your companieshave egos hiring managers that
egos play into that ego a littlebit and talk about how great
(22:22):
the company and the role is andhow great they are at their job.
Right, everyone has to readabout themselves.
Everyone has to read aboutthemselves, hiring managers
included.
Pete Newsome (22:28):
I unfortunately have not had a line out the door
yet of people coming and sayingmy career aspiration and my
greatest goal is to work for youor your company, but I'm still
waiting.
But if someone does that andthey say this is my number one
objective is to work for you andwork at Beam Jobs, you're going
(22:48):
to stop, like you said.
You can't not stop and noticethat I mean.
But how rare is it that peoplewill actually take that step
right?
We could say it and no onewould argue against that.
I can't imagine they would ifthey were on with us right now.
But what percentage of peopleactually take that advice, do
they?
Stephen Greet (23:06):
Oh, it is so small.
So even another experienceright.
We hired for a marketing roleat Beam Jobs and within 24 hours
we had 750 applicants.
We had one required question ofjust tell me about a past
marketing experiment you've doneand 15% of people, even though
it was required, filled it outright.
So I understand it can be veryoverwhelming when you think
you're competing againsthundreds of hundreds of other
(23:26):
people for a given job.
But you have to understand theaverage level of quality of
these applicants or thecustomization of these resumes
and applications is nil.
If you just do a little bitextra, you are going to stand
out.
You immediately vault yourselfinto this top 10% because most
people are just playing thenumbers game and blindly
submitting resumes andapplications.
So if you can do that littlebit extra to draw the attention
(23:48):
of the hiring manager, I promiseyou you are much more likely to
get an interview.
Pete Newsome (23:52):
I could not agree more.
And the bar is so low, which isto the candidate's advantage,
right, it's unfortunate that thebar is so low in many respects.
Ai one-click apply jobapplication process is killing
how the system works.
Process is killing how thesystem works, but that is to the
(24:14):
advantage of any candidatewilling to go slightly above and
beyond not significantly, butslightly, which is crazy.
Stephen Greet (24:18):
I think that's the point.
I think most people, when theyhear, oh, I have to customize my
resume for each job that Iapplied to, they're thinking
hours.
I'm not talking hours, I'mtalking 10 to 15 minutes of
changing your base resume for agiven job.
Read the job description, readthe skills section.
As you read, it does anythingyou've ever done or worked on
come to mind.
That is the level of simplicitywe're talking about and it will
(24:40):
again vault you right to thetop because, I promise you, most
of the people you're competingagainst for a given role are not
taking that time.
A given role are not takingthat time?
Pete Newsome (24:47):
Nope, they're not.
And I know that when we see yousee it on the resume side, we
see it on the candidate side,when it comes to recruiting,
Very few people are willing todo it.
Many are willing to complainabout how hard the process is,
but that's a pretty big cheatcode.
And you said 10 to 15 minutes.
I say at most.
You know, I think it's probablycloser to five.
(25:09):
So if you see a job that youreally want, isn't it worth an
extra five, 10, 15, 20 minutes?
Of course it is.
Stephen Greet (25:13):
Absolutely.
And again, I think the quickesthack you can do here is include
the company name in thatobjective, because it just
immediately draws the attentionand again at least shows that
you are willing to do the workto at least customize your
resume for the job right.
Pete Newsome (25:32):
People want to know that you're willing to put
in the work and there's nobetter indicator than if you
took that five to 10 minutes tocustomize your resume.
It's a great tip because if Iknow nothing else about you as
an applicant, I know you werewilling to do a little bit of
extra effort to catch myattention.
And that is super meaningfulbecause I think what candidates
don't realize is on therecruiting side, we're just as
worried about candidatesdisappearing.
On the recruiting side we'rejust as worried about candidates
disappearing, not beinginterested, ghosting, whatever
you want to say, as thecandidates are about company.
(25:55):
So my team of recruiters theywant nothing more than a
candidate who is genuinelyinterested in the role they're
recruiting for.
That is like gold.
So when candidates areproactive, even if it's a small
step, like with a big impact,mentioning the company name
makes a huge difference in theircandidacy.
Stephen Greet (26:11):
Yeah, you were speaking music to my ears, right
?
Everyone wants to look good.
Everyone wants to be good attheir job.
Do you know?
Hiring managers and recruiterslook good at their jobs If they
get people who follow through inthe process and don't ghost.
It's a two-way street.
Make the life of the personyou're trying to appeal to as
easy as possible.
Make them look good and you'remore likely to have success in
your job search.
Pete Newsome (26:30):
And maybe that's why we hit it off the first time
we ever connected, becausewe're very but we come from a
very different place.
Right, I'm trying to providecareer advice.
I'm an recruiting company.
You're the expert in puttingtogether resumes specifically,
and so, even though our ultimateobjective isn't the same and
how we earn our livings, ourmessage is almost exactly the
(26:53):
same, right, coming from verydifferent perspectives.
Stephen Greet (26:56):
Fundamentally, quality rises to the top right,
and I think that's true on bothsides of the coin here, for both
hiring managers and forcandidates.
So just make it so that you arethat quality that rises to the
top, because, again, when you'rereviewing 600, 700, 800 resumes
, the ones that took the timeare clear as day.
It is so obvious when someonetakes the extra initiative to
(27:17):
put in the work and customizetheir application.
Pete Newsome (27:19):
Absolutely so I'll share an analogy with you.
I recorded a video earliertoday and see if you like it.
I recommend that people treattheir resume as if they're a
magazine publisher, where ifyou're publishing a magazine,
say People magazine you knowthat's going to be at the
checkout counter at a grocerystore, right and with 10 other
(27:43):
magazines the Candy, the Gum,all of that people are passing
through, they scan thosemagazines and it takes the right
headline, the right imagery,whatever it is to prompt someone
to pick up that magazine, maybebuy it, but at the very least
open and see what else is there.
And that's what I've startedrecommending to people to look
at their resumes like, Think,like a magazine publisher, Think
your headline, Think yourimagery.
The more you catch my attentionand you display that you're
(28:08):
what I want, the more prone I amto pick it up.
Stephen Greet (28:12):
Exactly, you're touching on all the points.
This is exactly the advice weecho, right?
It's the reason that you shouldinclude the company name and
the objective.
If you can, you should makeyour headline, your job title,
on your resume match the titleyou're applying to.
It's the reason we use numbers,because it makes it scannable
and immediately convincessomeone that you're qualified,
because you're speaking tometrics that prove that point.
Right, it's exactly to thatpoint, pete.
(28:34):
You want to make sure thatsomeone looking at your resume
very briefly can be convincedthat you're good for the role.
Pete Newsome (28:40):
Perfect.
Now you've given an immenseamount of quality advice for
people to apply, and I hope alot do, but let's talk about
things to avoid for a minute.
Sure, what are the top resumered flags?
We've written lots of blogsabout them.
I'm sure you have too, but ifyou had to narrow it down to a
couple prevalent mistakes, whatwould you describe them as?
Stephen Greet (29:01):
So I'm going to look at this from a lens of new
grads and people who are tryingto enter the workforce.
I think the number one mistakethat I see is a skill section
that's 15, 20, 25 skills long.
And I think this is even moreso true in technical fields.
Right, if you're trying toconvince a hiring manager, as a
software engineer, that you know10 different programming
languages and 15 differentcoding frameworks, that's not
(29:23):
reality, right?
No one expects you tounderstand that right out of
college.
Be a master of a few skills,not a jack of all trades, if you
can avoid it.
Because, to your point,specificity matters.
Make it so that you're theperfect fit for that one
specific role you're looking forand the other is content.
That's too long.
Right To your point where youwant to make the headline as
appealing as possible.
If you have a resume that'sthree bullet points, that's four
(29:46):
paragraphs each bullet point,you're not doing yourself any
favors because you're making thelife of the hiring manager
harder.
Always look through the lens.
If you were the hiring manager,what would you want to see?
How can you make their life aseasy as possible?
And no one's going to read it ifit's long.
You're just going toimmediately into the no pile.
Pete Newsome (30:03):
Right, I mean so to that.
So another question put you onthe spot with this one, an
objective statement.
If someone is going to use one,what length would you?
What's too long?
Stephen Greet (30:12):
I'm saying anything beyond like the four or
five lines is pushing it.
I'm saying keep it to two,three lines.
Mention the company name.
Be highly specific, not generic.
Do not just pad content.
Everyone can.
I'd much rather your resumehave white space at the bottom
than you just fluffing outcontent just to fluff out
content.
Pete Newsome (30:34):
Nice, much rather your resume have white space at
the bottom than you justfluffing out content.
Just to fluff out content, nice, perfect.
I say three lines.
That's my standard go-to, sowe're in sync there too.
All right, so we've given a lotof advice in a short period of
time.
If someone wants to useBeamJobs, steve, where do they
go?
Where do they start?
Stephen Greet (30:43):
You can just head on over to beamjobscom.
We make it super easy so thatyou again our goal is to make
this process as lessoverwhelming as we possibly can
and the homepage will direct youthrough that flow which, again,
name of the game, make creatingyour resume not intimidating,
and that's the hope.
When you come to beam jobs,we'll walk you through it so
that we can take youstep-by-step.
You walk away with a resumeyou're really proud of, that
(31:04):
gets you more interviews.
Pete Newsome (31:06):
Perfect, and I don't know if I told you this
yet, but my son, who justgraduated from college, needed
to create a CV for grad schooland he used BeamJobs.
So not only am I a?
Fan, but I think I'm stillpaying for it with him, but I'm
also-.
Stephen Greet (31:18):
I love to hear it , but, pete, you should know you
always get free access.
You and the family always getfree access.
Give me an email.
Pete Newsome (31:25):
I should have made that call Well listen, but it
was great to experience itthrough his lens, through his
eyes, and it was a great toolthat was easy to use and I'm not
going to my desk here.
Hopefully he gets thefellowship that he applied for
and we'll know very soon.
Stephen Greet (31:41):
I sure hope so.
Now you have to follow up withme.
I have to know, sure?
Pete Newsome (31:45):
Well, look, we're going to come back, we're going
to, we're going to record again,hopefully in the near future,
to talk about cover letters.
It's an important part of theprocess.
It gets a lot of you know, alot of controversy at times,
right?
So that's not everyone agrees,but I think we're in sync there
too.
So, steven, thank you so muchfor your time today.
It's been very valuable.
Stephen Greet (32:01):
Yeah, thanks so much, pete.
This has been, this has been apleasure.
Pete Newsome (32:06):
And.
You're listening to the Finding Zen Career in
Podcast.
I'm Pete Newsome and my guesttoday is Stephen Greet,
co-founder of BeamJobs.
Stephen, how are you today?
Stephen Greet (00:07):
I'm doing really well, Pete.
How are you?
Pete Newsome (00:09):
I'm doing great.
It's so wonderful to have youon.
Beamjobs is the best platformthat's out there today for
resumes.
Why don't you tell us a littlebit about BeamJobs and how you
came to start the company?
Stephen Greet (00:20):
Yeah, so I'm happy to go into my background
and my spiel.
So the company was actuallystarted by my identical twin
brother and I, so I was at acompany called Chegg in data.
He was an engineer at a littlecompany called Google.
We both always wanted to starta company together, didn't
really know what we wanted to do, so back in 2018, we both took
the plunge and just sort of quitour jobs cold.
We knew we wanted to dosomething in the hiring space,
(00:42):
but we didn't know what thatlooked like.
So for the first two years, wejust helped companies hire
technical talent.
So hire engineers, hire datascientists and a common problem
that we always saw was that we'dhave really, really qualified
people who would apply to theroles that we helped fill, but
the resumes just didn't reflectthe quality of the candidate
that they were.
So we set out to build softwareto try to solve that.
(01:02):
So back in 2020, we launchedthe first version of our resume
product, the whole premise beingthat we use data to make sure
that your resume gets you moreinterviews, and over time, we've
grown quite a bit.
So we've just crossed over 2million resumes created on the
platform, and the beauty of thesystem is that the more that
people use the platform, thebetter it gets over time, and
our goal is just to helpeveryone put their best foot
(01:23):
forward, because resume writingis stressful.
It's not something you do a lot, but it has such an outsized
impact on your career earningsand your career trajectory.
Pete Newsome (01:31):
I was looking at your homepage and the headline
that's on there currently says aresume that removes stress.
Right, I mean, that's such asimple thing to say, but
powerful, because resumes add ahuge degree of success, or
stress rather, to candidates.
Why is that?
I mean, why are resumes such adifficult thing for individuals?
Stephen Greet (01:54):
Look, let's say it's something you are going to
get a job or not get a job basedon something that you do maybe
once every five years.
You're not in there.
Your day-to-day job is notcreating resumes, right?
Your day-to-day job is doingyour job, but you're judged by
this document or this artifactthat is completely divorced from
the actual job that you do.
Right, it's not about your job,it's how you talk about your
(02:16):
job.
So the reason it's so stressfulis how do you sum up your career
or your life on this one-pagepiece of paper and really make
sure that you're putting yourbest foot forward?
It's just not something that wedo a lot, but again, it has
such a massive impact on yourcareer trajectory and your
lifetime career earnings andit's just not something that we
do a lot.
So no one knows the bestpractice, because there's not a
lot of objective best practice.
It's sort of jumping fromsubjective opinion to subjective
(02:39):
opinion, completely divorcedfrom the reality of what works
to get interviews and whatdoesn't.
And when you're looking at thatblank page of paper, you feel
that weight on your shouldersincredibly, because you know how
important it is and you justdon't know how to crack the code
, to get started and to get theinterview.
Pete Newsome (02:52):
Yeah, and it's almost like the better you've,
meaning you don't need to createa resume because your career
reputation has taken care ofitself, you get referrals and
recommended to places, or you'vethrived for a long time as one
organization.
You're almost at a disadvantagewhen it comes to creating
resumes, which is a cruel bit ofirony, I think 100% and trends
(03:16):
are constantly changing right.
Stephen Greet (03:18):
Imagine you got a job eight years ago.
You've been at the company foreight years and now you're
reentering the workforce andChatGPT is a thing.
Where do you even begin tostart thinking about how to
present your resume with moderntechnology or adapting to
current trends?
It's just the more you stay ata company, the more
disadvantaged you are, unlessyou're at the cream of the crop
and you're getting inundatedwith inbound LinkedIn messages
(03:40):
with job offers.
I think that's a rarity and Ithink people think that's more
common than it is, but it's therare candidate Most people do
have to put in that work, createtheir resume, build their
network to really land the jobthat they want.
Pete Newsome (03:55):
Well, the better your resume, the more
opportunities are going to comeyour way.
I think everyone canacknowledge that.
But it still creates a bigchallenge to those who don't
know where to start, and that'swhere you guys come in right.
Stephen Greet (04:03):
That's exactly the goal.
I think people see theirsuccess in the job search as a
reflection of their self-worthand I think that's most acutely
felt by people entering theworkforce.
So recent grads or new grads,people who are laid off and
people who are looking for acareer change.
Because it's exactly what youwere saying, pete.
It's that first job, getting in, breaking through, is the
(04:24):
hardest part, and once you dothat it becomes a bit easier.
But it's just overwhelming toget started and not sure what to
include, specifically when youfeel like you have no relevant
experience or no experience toget you the job.
It can just feel almostimpossible.
Pete Newsome (04:38):
So you think about resumes more than I do.
I think about youngprofessionals a whole lot.
Why don't we help them withthis in school?
Have you thought about whythere's such a gap between what
you need and what you'reactually getting in terms of
education?
Stephen Greet (04:52):
Don't even get me started on this.
This is one of my hot buttonissues.
The name of the game forcolleges is not necessarily job
preparedness, right, the name ofthe game for a lot of colleges
is to get higher articulation toget more students to keep that
revenue coming in, notnecessarily with an interest or
an importance placed onplacement.
So there's this massive gapbetween the incentives that
(05:14):
colleges have where they want toget more students in the door
and the incentives of thestudent themselves where they're
laden with tens of thousands, ahundred thousands of dollars of
debt without the preparednessto turn that debt into
meaningful income to then payoff the debt.
It's just this difference ofincentives between students and
the leaders of the colleges.
Pete Newsome (05:31):
Yeah, and you and I talked about this before
recording.
We probably should have hitrecord.
I'm not sure any college wouldever talk to either one of us if
we had.
Maybe it's better that wedidn't.
But we share a perspective thatstudents or recent grads need
more help than they're gettingfrom those who are educating
them.
So where do they begin?
I mean, start at the basics.
If you're a new grad, whereshould you begin with your
(05:54):
resume?
Stephen Greet (05:55):
So I can talk sort of anecdotally about my
experience, even right.
So I graduated with a degreefrom math.
I had no idea what I could dowith a degree in math, right?
So where do you start?
I just I knew I needed income,I knew I needed a job.
So the first thing I did is aGoogle search what can I do with
a math degree?
But that was my job, that waswhat I did.
I just did a Google search andfrom the list of five job titles
oh, data analyst sounds cool.
(06:16):
And that first thing that Iwould recommend is starting with
identifying potential jobs thatyou can take on.
Right, it doesn't have to bejobs that you're in love with,
but let's just start with a listof possible job titles.
If you're a marketer right,what are all of the things that
you can do in marketing?
It is an incredibly big fieldwith almost infinite job titles.
(06:39):
So first you have to lock in onsome potential job titles and
then from there, you can reallystart digging into the research
Beyond that, figuring out customjobs, how to customize your
resume.
But it really starts withfiguring out what your
possibilities are based on yourdegree.
Pete Newsome (06:55):
Yeah, I've been in touch with a lot of new grads
over the past week and a lot ofthem don't even know what they
want to pursue, so they havethis degree.
They know they need to figureout their career opportunities,
but they don't know where tostart.
And I give similar advicebecause you can't hit a target
if you don't know what thetarget is, let alone if it's
(07:15):
going to move, and we know itwill move.
Career paths are winding, but alot of these guys are saying I
don't even know where to begin.
So we're not going to solvethat today necessarily, but
there are lots of assessmentsout there for young people and
that I agree with you a hundredpercent that that is a very,
very important first stepbuilding a resume and pursuing
(07:36):
job opportunities.
Talk to me for a minute aboutwhat are the important
components of a resume forsomeone who's just starting out.
Stephen Greet (07:45):
Yeah.
So once you have that level ofspecificity right, like you said
, you can't create a resumethat's going to work for a
software engineering role and anHR role.
They're completely differentdisciplines.
So once you have an idea of thekind of jobs you're going for,
the first piece of advice I gofor is read 10, 15, 20 job
descriptions right.
Find job posts for that kind ofjob.
Understand the typicalresponsibilities, understand the
(08:08):
skills of the trade, and hiringmanagers at this phase of your
career are not expecting you tobe a full breath expert.
You don't have to know 25skills right.
Pitch yourself as a master ofone or two skills, things that
you could actually apply on dayone of the job, because, again,
hiring managers understand thatyou don't have that relevant
(08:28):
experience yet.
So it's really aboutspecificity and trying to make
it clear that you know a couplethings that can actually add
value to the role you'reapplying for, and color that
with how you learn those skillsright.
Do you know Microsoft Excel froma school project?
Don't be afraid to include thatschool project.
I think the problem that Iencounter a lot with recent
grads is that they think theyneed to have 10 years of
(08:49):
relevant experience, but it'sjust not true.
You can make any experiencerelevant, whether it's a class
project, a volunteer initiativeright.
It shows that you take chargeand you can actually go out your
way to provide value.
Anything can be made to berelevant experience.
And don't get hung up on nothaving five years of relevant
data analysis experience, right.
That's just not the reality.
Pete Newsome (09:08):
I'm so glad you said that, because one of the
things that I've said a fewtimes lately to young grads is
it's okay to make small thingssound big.
You don't feel fraudulent indoing that, and they feel like
they're cheating the system.
But you have to do that.
You have to highlight theattributes that you have in lieu
of others, and so it'sincumbent upon you to do that
(09:32):
and it's expected, right.
I think that's as important asanything else is.
People know that a resume issomeone's best foot that they're
putting forward.
So if you're not willing to dothat for yourself, no one else
is going to do it for you.
Stephen Greet (09:44):
Yeah, let me tell you what a hiring manager
doesn't want to read.
I'm just okay to excel, right,that is not that you need to be.
The resume is the place to brag.
It's the place to really be alittle bit arrogant, a little
bit cocky.
Really talk yourself up,because it also is a reflection
of how you communicate rightWritten communication.
In businesses or in jobs.
You need to be able to voicesomething and articulate the
value that you're providing, andif you can do it on your resume
(10:06):
, it's a pretty good reflectionin that, or a pretty good
indicator that you'll be able todo it on the job, which is
incredibly, incredibly valuableto any company.
Pete Newsome (10:13):
So let's talk for a minute, then, about how
BeamJobs can help with that.
I want to talk about some otherthings that are negatives on
resumes and what to avoid, butlet's focus on the positives
first.
You're coming out of schoolminimal experience, maybe, some
internships, maybe not right,and that's pretty common too.
What does BeamJobs do to helpyou build this initial resume?
Stephen Greet (10:34):
I do a lot of writing for BeamJobs as well,
and the hardest part aboutwriting is looking at the blank
page right, not knowing where tostart.
So I think the real value thatwe can provide at BeamJobs or we
do provide is we help youovercome that cold start problem
.
We break this overwhelming taskof building a compelling resume
into micro steps that don'tfeel overwhelming at all.
We'll start simple let's askyour name, right, we'll take it
(10:55):
from there.
Ask the job title you'reapplying to.
We'll make it a reallyincremental, guided process so
you're not feeling the weight oflooking at that blank page and
figuring out what to come upwith.
And the trickiest part, I thinkfor most college students and
most people generally isfiguring out how to talk about
their experience.
And we do a lot there to giveyou recommendations and
proactive tools and tips and wescore your feedback.
Pete Newsome (11:18):
But we our aim is really make this daunting task
straightforward simple, perfect,and you guys have a lot of
sample resumes as well, which Iknow is a great way to get ideas
, and if you see what othershave done, see those
recommendations.
So talk about that for a littlebit.
Stephen Greet (11:34):
Yeah, we have examples across every profession
you could probably imagine,across all levels of seniority,
and what really matters here isthat these are not spun out of
cloth right, they are what works.
They are data-driven.
We know what works to getinterviews, we know what doesn't
work to get interviewsspecifically on your resume,
specifically for people who areentering the workforce.
So we take that data, distillit into practical examples so to
(11:58):
again help you overcome thatcold start problem of looking at
a blank screen.
Pete Newsome (12:03):
So where do you get your data from?
How do you gather that?
Stephen Greet (12:06):
It's a beautiful cyclical process, right?
So the more that people use ourplatform, we know, hey, you're
an entry-level marketer lookingfor a job.
We know that you applied for Xjobs with this resume.
We know you got an interview atY number of places, right?
So the more that people use ourtool, the better our system
becomes, because we're learningwhat works and what doesn't.
So now the beauty is all of thedata comes from the people who
(12:29):
are using our platform and, withover 2 million resumes created,
at this point, we have just areal huge corpus of data to know
what works and what doesn't toget that interview.
Pete Newsome (12:40):
So, when you look at what works, is there any
consistent themes that you seethat you'd want to share with
anyone listening?
Stephen Greet (12:46):
I would love to.
The number one far and awaymost likely indicator of whether
you're going to get aninterview or not is whether you
quantified your experience, andI know this can be overwhelming,
specifically for fresh grads orpeople who are breaking the
workforce.
I don't have any relevantexperience.
How do I quantify it?
It doesn't have to be asoverwhelming as you're thinking,
right.
So let's say you're looking fora marketing role at a college
(13:10):
and as part of a class project,you did a pseudo PR announcement
for a made up company, right.
You can turn that into metrics,right?
Wrote a press release thatgarner 17% more views than
baseline, right?
No one is expecting thesemetrics that you include in your
resume to be wholly accurate.
You just have to be able tomake sure that you're
(13:31):
positioning yourself, thatyou're talking to the pain
points of the company.
Companies want quantifiableresults.
If you're also focusing onquantifiable results on your
resume, you're just removing thedoubt from the recruiter's mind
and you're going to get mostlikely going to get an interview
right.
You want to make therecruiter's job easy.
Convince them you can do thejob.
There's no better way to dothat than numbers.
Pete Newsome (13:50):
You just said a phrase that is one that I repeat
often when I'm talking aboutresumes or a profile on LinkedIn
or any interaction you havewhen you're a job seeker is make
the recruiter's job easy, andwhat that means to me is don't
have them guess, don't ask themto try to put you know, fill in
a missing puzzle piece.
You want to spell it out.
(14:11):
So you, you, what you were.
I usually think of it in termsof red flags and I want to get
to that in a second, but whatyou're saying is spell out your
highlights very, very clearlyfor them.
Why is that a struggle?
For most people, I mean, it'sintuitive, right, and when you
hear it, you think, of course, Ishould do that.
Is it just a discomfort withtrying to make yourself sound
better than you believe you are?
(14:32):
Is that?
Is that why?
Stephen Greet (14:33):
I think it's that , but I also think it's an
editing problem, right, the moreyou write.
I think what you learn the moreyou write is that it's much
harder to be concise in yourwriting than it is to be super
lengthy, right, when you have towrite with concision and write
a highlight reel, you have to dosome cutting, you have to leave
some on the cutting room floor,right.
And I think new gradsespecially are a bit insecure
(14:53):
that they think they have toinclude everything they've ever
done, such that when it's timeto cut they think everything is
too precious.
And it's really that process ofediting and trying to cut the
fat that makes it so much harderthan sort of just going with
your five-page resume with everysingle experience you've ever
heard about or read about ordone.
It's that editing process whichcan be difficult.
Pete Newsome (15:14):
So you bring up something that I have to ask the
age-old question One-pageresume or can it be more than
one page for a new grad?
Stephen Greet (15:23):
For new grads keep it one page right.
If you're going to two pages asa new grad, unless you have six
or seven relevant internshipexperiences, it just seems like
you're adding a lot of fat, alot of fluff to the resume.
Specifically for new gradsright.
If you have more experience, itcan definitely go on to the
second page, but new gradsthere's no reason that your
resume needs to go on to thesecond page.
(15:44):
It but new grads there's noreason that your resume needs to
go on onto the second page.
Pete Newsome (15:48):
It just means you need to do a bit more editing.
Now, most grads do have thatinitial problem that you've been
referencing, which is notenough content, right, but I see
some that do have a lot.
There's a tendency to put inpersonal things, hobbies, right,
volunteer activities.
Where do you land on that for anew grad?
Stephen Greet (16:05):
So I think it's actually very relevant on the
type of company and type of goalyou're applying to.
So a little story on me.
So before I worked at Chegg,which is a tech company, I
worked at Geico, right, a big,stodgy insurance player.
And what I did in college is Iplayed a lot of poker, but I
didn't just play poker to gamble, right, I did it in a very
data-driven, analytical way toimprove my game.
(16:25):
So when I applied to techcompanies, I actually included
that as a talking point.
I played poker, but I talkedabout my strategy and my
strategy of using data to becomea better poker player, and that
got me so many interviews andit was a massive talking point
on interviews, to the point thatthe reason I got the job is
because that was my in at Cheggfor the hiring managers.
We talked about that and I gotto dive into more of my
(16:46):
analytical philosophy.
So if you can position anexperience that you have and
make it relevant to the roleyou're applying to, I say, by
all means, include it, becauseyou know what stood out when I
was applying to jobs against 100other people that I played
poker right.
That wasn't on everyone'sresume and I made it relevant.
So if you can make it relevant,I say go for it.
Pete Newsome (17:03):
That's a great way to phrase it and I'm really
glad you told that story andwere you good at poker.
Stephen Greet (17:09):
I was pretty decent, yeah, I consistently
generated return on investment.
I tapped out a little bit aftercollege when the career took
over, but it was a nice littlehobby in college, my first foray
into turning my math skillsinto a bit of money.
Pete Newsome (17:22):
Nice, nice, good for you.
Well, but I do think that issuch an important point to make
it's okay to have personalthings, provided you make them
relevant and that you phrased itperfectly.
So that's a mistake that I seea lot where I don't know what
else to say.
So I'm just going to startputting things down, and it's
all very consistent what you'resaying, which is how, by the way
(17:44):
, all of this applies toexperienced professionals too.
I'm asking you a lot ofquestions about new grads,
because we know that that is whoreally struggles the most in
just starting a resume.
But I see these challengesapply to people who are very
seasoned, very experienced, andit really never goes away, does
it?
Stephen Greet (18:05):
It really doesn't .
And, to your point, you have tomake it relevant.
Everyone watches Netflix,everyone watches TV, but you
can't put that on your resumebecause it's not going to stand
out, it's not going to be atalking point.
If you can make it relevant, itcan apply across the board, to
both entry-level people,seasoned people.
If you can get a conversationgoing and make it a draw, I
don't think it ever hurts, aslong as you're drawing attention
for the right reasons reasons.
Pete Newsome (18:26):
Yeah, no doubt.
And what about volunteeractivity?
You know that because on onehand you could argue, hey, that
makes me look like a goodcitizen, and it does.
I would argue that it's not themost relevant.
So what's your, what's yourtake on that?
Stephen Greet (18:39):
So I think, especially as a new grad, right,
you want to show that you canhandle responsibility, you can
have you're a bit independent,and I think volunteer work is a
great example of that.
Right, did you show up everyday or every week for four years
of your college degree and helppeople, or help show up and
take initiative and own projects?
(18:59):
I think that's exceptional andI think that's a great way to
position yourself as someonewho's responsible and can handle
that responsibility on yourresume.
So it all comes back to thispoint.
I'm going to sound like abroken record, but can you make
it relevant, right?
Hiring managers want people whoare responsible, who are going
to show up and do the work.
Anything that's evidence ofthat, including volunteer
activity, can be made relevantto highlight that you check
(19:20):
those boxes.
Pete Newsome (19:21):
Perfect.
I love it as far as looking atthings as you go forward in your
career.
I tell people and so some ofthis is a sanity check for me
right?
I want to see if the advice Igive as a recruiter has been the
right advice as a true resumeprofessional is you want to
highlight your best attributes.
You want to put those up top.
(19:42):
So I tell students if you'renew on the job market
professionally, put youreducation up top, because that
is probably the most relevantthing you've done.
But when you're old, like me,your education is almost
insignificant.
Right, bury it at the bottom.
No one cares what degree I hadin a few years ago.
Stephen Greet (20:00):
I could not agree more with this, and it's one of
my pet peeves about resumes iswhen you're a seasoned
professional of five, 10 yearsof experience and you're still
talking about your GPA or theclasses you took in undergrad.
It's just not relevant.
Lead with your strength.
Lead with what's relevant.
If you just graduated with asoftware engineering degree,
that is your headline.
That is the thing that makesyou most qualified or most
(20:20):
likely to get an interview.
And again, as you progress inyour career, that becomes
inverted.
Your relevant work experiencebecomes the reason you get an
interview.
So, exactly to your point, Peteit's lead with your home run.
Lead with the thing that'sgoing to grab the interviewer's
attention or convince them thatyou are worth interviewing.
Pete Newsome (20:36):
What about objective statements?
I see some people recommendagainst them.
I'm a fan.
I think the more clearly youcan spell out what your purpose
is with creating and thensending someone your resume, the
better.
But not everyone shares thatview.
Stephen Greet (20:54):
I am wholeheartedly in agreement, as
long as you're customizing itfor each job you're applying to.
I'm sure you had the experiencethat I had as well.
When you're reviewing 100, 200resumes, the resume objectives
become this blur of genericnonsense.
But I think a little, a littlehack that we've identified is if
you mentioned the company nameof the company you're applying
to in the objective, you'reimmediately more likely to get
an interview right.
So it's all about thatspecificity, because, believe me
(21:14):
, every other objective is I amhighly qualified for this role,
so you have to make it like it'syou're writing to one person
and one company.
It cannot be generic, otherwiseyou're just wasting real estate
.
Pete Newsome (21:25):
Yeah, and that is a huge proponent of that where
the more specific you make yourmessaging and I'm going to put
you on the spot now Will youcome back and report with me
again to talk about coverletters, because I don't want to
hijack what we're talking aboutnow, but I'm coining this
phrase, stephen cover story.
I think you need to tell yourstory specific to the individual
(21:48):
job and the person who'sviewing your resume to determine
whether they should pick yoursout of the pile or quickly move
on, because we know you get what.
Five, six, seven seconds that'show long a recruiter is going
to look at a resume and make adecision.
Stephen Greet (22:01):
Yeah, you have about six seconds.
So if your objective is fluff,the recruiter is going to see
that they're going toimmediately move on and be a
little bit more dismissive asopposed to, let's say, you're
applying to beam jobs and you'releading with beam jobs on your,
your objective.
I'm reading that.
You have my attention right.
Make sure it's standing up,make sure it's custom is
customized and your companieshave egos hiring managers that
egos play into that ego a littlebit and talk about how great
(22:22):
the company and the role is andhow great they are at their job.
Right, everyone has to readabout themselves.
Everyone has to read aboutthemselves, hiring managers
included.
Pete Newsome (22:28):
I unfortunately have not had a line out the door
yet of people coming and sayingmy career aspiration and my
greatest goal is to work for youor your company, but I'm still
waiting.
But if someone does that andthey say this is my number one
objective is to work for you andwork at Beam Jobs, you're going
(22:48):
to stop, like you said.
You can't not stop and noticethat I mean.
But how rare is it that peoplewill actually take that step
right?
We could say it and no onewould argue against that.
I can't imagine they would ifthey were on with us right now.
But what percentage of peopleactually take that advice, do
they?
Stephen Greet (23:06):
Oh, it is so small.
So even another experienceright.
We hired for a marketing roleat Beam Jobs and within 24 hours
we had 750 applicants.
We had one required question ofjust tell me about a past
marketing experiment you've doneand 15% of people, even though
it was required, filled it outright.
So I understand it can be veryoverwhelming when you think
you're competing againsthundreds of hundreds of other
(23:26):
people for a given job.
But you have to understand theaverage level of quality of
these applicants or thecustomization of these resumes
and applications is nil.
If you just do a little bitextra, you are going to stand
out.
You immediately vault yourselfinto this top 10% because most
people are just playing thenumbers game and blindly
submitting resumes andapplications.
So if you can do that littlebit extra to draw the attention
(23:48):
of the hiring manager, I promiseyou you are much more likely to
get an interview.
Pete Newsome (23:52):
I could not agree more.
And the bar is so low, which isto the candidate's advantage,
right, it's unfortunate that thebar is so low in many respects.
Ai one-click apply jobapplication process is killing
how the system works.
Process is killing how thesystem works, but that is to the
(24:14):
advantage of any candidatewilling to go slightly above and
beyond not significantly, butslightly, which is crazy.
Stephen Greet (24:18):
I think that's the point.
I think most people, when theyhear, oh, I have to customize my
resume for each job that Iapplied to, they're thinking
hours.
I'm not talking hours, I'mtalking 10 to 15 minutes of
changing your base resume for agiven job.
Read the job description, readthe skills section.
As you read, it does anythingyou've ever done or worked on
come to mind.
That is the level of simplicitywe're talking about and it will
(24:40):
again vault you right to thetop because, I promise you, most
of the people you're competingagainst for a given role are not
taking that time.
A given role are not takingthat time?
Pete Newsome (24:47):
Nope, they're not.
And I know that when we see yousee it on the resume side, we
see it on the candidate side,when it comes to recruiting,
Very few people are willing todo it.
Many are willing to complainabout how hard the process is,
but that's a pretty big cheatcode.
And you said 10 to 15 minutes.
I say at most.
You know, I think it's probablycloser to five.
(25:09):
So if you see a job that youreally want, isn't it worth an
extra five, 10, 15, 20 minutes?
Of course it is.
Stephen Greet (25:13):
Absolutely.
And again, I think the quickesthack you can do here is include
the company name in thatobjective, because it just
immediately draws the attentionand again at least shows that
you are willing to do the workto at least customize your
resume for the job right.
Pete Newsome (25:32):
People want to know that you're willing to put
in the work and there's nobetter indicator than if you
took that five to 10 minutes tocustomize your resume.
It's a great tip because if Iknow nothing else about you as
an applicant, I know you werewilling to do a little bit of
extra effort to catch myattention.
And that is super meaningfulbecause I think what candidates
don't realize is on therecruiting side, we're just as
worried about candidatesdisappearing.
On the recruiting side we'rejust as worried about candidates
disappearing, not beinginterested, ghosting, whatever
you want to say, as thecandidates are about company.
(25:55):
So my team of recruiters theywant nothing more than a
candidate who is genuinelyinterested in the role they're
recruiting for.
That is like gold.
So when candidates areproactive, even if it's a small
step, like with a big impact,mentioning the company name
makes a huge difference in theircandidacy.
Stephen Greet (26:11):
Yeah, you were speaking music to my ears, right
?
Everyone wants to look good.
Everyone wants to be good attheir job.
Do you know?
Hiring managers and recruiterslook good at their jobs If they
get people who follow through inthe process and don't ghost.
It's a two-way street.
Make the life of the personyou're trying to appeal to as
easy as possible.
Make them look good and you'remore likely to have success in
your job search.
Pete Newsome (26:30):
And maybe that's why we hit it off the first time
we ever connected, becausewe're very but we come from a
very different place.
Right, I'm trying to providecareer advice.
I'm an recruiting company.
You're the expert in puttingtogether resumes specifically,
and so, even though our ultimateobjective isn't the same and
how we earn our livings, ourmessage is almost exactly the
(26:53):
same, right, coming from verydifferent perspectives.
Stephen Greet (26:56):
Fundamentally, quality rises to the top right,
and I think that's true on bothsides of the coin here, for both
hiring managers and forcandidates.
So just make it so that you arethat quality that rises to the
top, because, again, when you'rereviewing 600, 700, 800 resumes
, the ones that took the timeare clear as day.
It is so obvious when someonetakes the extra initiative to
(27:17):
put in the work and customizetheir application.
Pete Newsome (27:19):
Absolutely so I'll share an analogy with you.
I recorded a video earliertoday and see if you like it.
I recommend that people treattheir resume as if they're a
magazine publisher, where ifyou're publishing a magazine,
say People magazine you knowthat's going to be at the
checkout counter at a grocerystore, right and with 10 other
(27:43):
magazines the Candy, the Gum,all of that people are passing
through, they scan thosemagazines and it takes the right
headline, the right imagery,whatever it is to prompt someone
to pick up that magazine, maybebuy it, but at the very least
open and see what else is there.
And that's what I've startedrecommending to people to look
at their resumes like, Think,like a magazine publisher, Think
your headline, Think yourimagery.
The more you catch my attentionand you display that you're
(28:08):
what I want, the more prone I amto pick it up.
Stephen Greet (28:12):
Exactly, you're touching on all the points.
This is exactly the advice weecho, right?
It's the reason that you shouldinclude the company name and
the objective.
If you can, you should makeyour headline, your job title,
on your resume match the titleyou're applying to.
It's the reason we use numbers,because it makes it scannable
and immediately convincessomeone that you're qualified,
because you're speaking tometrics that prove that point.
Right, it's exactly to thatpoint, pete.
(28:34):
You want to make sure thatsomeone looking at your resume
very briefly can be convincedthat you're good for the role.
Pete Newsome (28:40):
Perfect.
Now you've given an immenseamount of quality advice for
people to apply, and I hope alot do, but let's talk about
things to avoid for a minute.
Sure, what are the top resumered flags?
We've written lots of blogsabout them.
I'm sure you have too, but ifyou had to narrow it down to a
couple prevalent mistakes, whatwould you describe them as?
Stephen Greet (29:01):
So I'm going to look at this from a lens of new
grads and people who are tryingto enter the workforce.
I think the number one mistakethat I see is a skill section
that's 15, 20, 25 skills long.
And I think this is even moreso true in technical fields.
Right, if you're trying toconvince a hiring manager, as a
software engineer, that you know10 different programming
languages and 15 differentcoding frameworks, that's not
(29:23):
reality, right?
No one expects you tounderstand that right out of
college.
Be a master of a few skills,not a jack of all trades, if you
can avoid it.
Because, to your point,specificity matters.
Make it so that you're theperfect fit for that one
specific role you're looking forand the other is content.
That's too long.
Right To your point where youwant to make the headline as
appealing as possible.
If you have a resume that'sthree bullet points, that's four
(29:46):
paragraphs each bullet point,you're not doing yourself any
favors because you're making thelife of the hiring manager
harder.
Always look through the lens.
If you were the hiring manager,what would you want to see?
How can you make their life aseasy as possible?
And no one's going to read it ifit's long.
You're just going toimmediately into the no pile.
Pete Newsome (30:03):
Right, I mean so to that.
So another question put you onthe spot with this one, an
objective statement.
If someone is going to use one,what length would you?
What's too long?
Stephen Greet (30:12):
I'm saying anything beyond like the four or
five lines is pushing it.
I'm saying keep it to two,three lines.
Mention the company name.
Be highly specific, not generic.
Do not just pad content.
Everyone can.
I'd much rather your resumehave white space at the bottom
than you just fluffing outcontent just to fluff out
content.
Pete Newsome (30:34):
Nice, much rather your resume have white space at
the bottom than you justfluffing out content.
Just to fluff out content, nice, perfect.
I say three lines.
That's my standard go-to, sowe're in sync there too.
All right, so we've given a lotof advice in a short period of
time.
If someone wants to useBeamJobs, steve, where do they
go?
Where do they start?
Stephen Greet (30:43):
You can just head on over to beamjobscom.
We make it super easy so thatyou again our goal is to make
this process as lessoverwhelming as we possibly can
and the homepage will direct youthrough that flow which, again,
name of the game, make creatingyour resume not intimidating,
and that's the hope.
When you come to beam jobs,we'll walk you through it so
that we can take youstep-by-step.
You walk away with a resumeyou're really proud of, that
(31:04):
gets you more interviews.
Pete Newsome (31:06):
Perfect, and I don't know if I told you this
yet, but my son, who justgraduated from college, needed
to create a CV for grad schooland he used BeamJobs.
So not only am I a?
Fan, but I think I'm stillpaying for it with him, but I'm
also-.
Stephen Greet (31:18):
I love to hear it , but, pete, you should know you
always get free access.
You and the family always getfree access.
Give me an email.
Pete Newsome (31:25):
I should have made that call Well listen, but it
was great to experience itthrough his lens, through his
eyes, and it was a great toolthat was easy to use and I'm not
going to my desk here.
Hopefully he gets thefellowship that he applied for
and we'll know very soon.
Stephen Greet (31:41):
I sure hope so.
Now you have to follow up withme.
I have to know, sure?
Pete Newsome (31:45):
Well, look, we're going to come back, we're going
to, we're going to record again,hopefully in the near future,
to talk about cover letters.
It's an important part of theprocess.
It gets a lot of you know, alot of controversy at times,
right?
So that's not everyone agrees,but I think we're in sync there
too.
So, steven, thank you so muchfor your time today.
It's been very valuable.
Stephen Greet (32:01):
Yeah, thanks so much, pete.
This has been, this has been apleasure.
Pete Newsome (32:06):
And.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Special Summer Offer: Exclusively on Apple Podcasts, try our Dateline Premium subscription completely free for one month! With Dateline Premium, you get every episode ad-free plus exclusive bonus content.
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy, Jess Hilarious, And Charlamagne Tha God!
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.