December 29, 2023 • 41 mins
Having grown up in an era when success seemed to be determined by a college diploma, Pete Newsome and Ricky Baez sit down to discuss what career pathways are like today. As Gen-Xers, they've witnessed the seismic shifts in the job landscape, prompting a lively debate on whether a college education still holds its weight amidst emerging alternative routes.
They explore the complexities of higher education and its potential pitfalls. Pete and Ricky scrutinize if colleges are truly equipping students with the tools needed to carve out successful careers or if they're just handing over an expensive piece of paper. They stress the significance of mentorship and the empowerment of today's youth to chart their own courses—whether that's academia, military service, or entrepreneurship. Focus is placed on cultivating guidance rather than dictating choices, advocating for a personalized GPS to navigate the career roadmap.
As the conversation unfolds, they challenge listeners to question the status quo and explore the value metrics schools use to define success. Do these reflect genuine happiness and fulfillment, or are they merely a facade? They share the importance of discovering one's 'ikigai' and celebrate those who choose passion projects over pompous titles.
Pros of Attending College:
- Educational and Career Opportunities: College provides access to specialized knowledge and skills in various fields. It often serves as a gateway to professional careers that require specific degrees or certifications.
- Networking and Social Connections: College environments offer abundant opportunities to network with peers, professors, and industry professionals. These connections can be invaluable for future career prospects and personal growth.
- Personal Development: College is not just about academic growth; it's also a crucial time for personal development. Students learn to become more independent, manage their time and finances, and develop a sense of responsibility.
Cons of Attending College:
- Financial Burden: One of the most significant drawbacks of attending college is the potential financial burden. Tuition fees, books, accommodation, and other expenses can lead to substantial debt.
- No Guarantee of Success: A college degree does not guarantee employment or career success. The job market can be competitive, and not all fields have the same demand or job growth. Graduates may find themselves unemployed or in jobs unrelated to their field of study.
- Time Commitment: College requires a significant time commitment, often four years or more, for a bachelor’s degree. This time could be spent gaining work experience, learning trade skills, or pursuing other interests.
Additional Resources:
- How to Find Career Purpose
- Career Guides
- Exploring Non-Traditional Careers: Finding Fulfillment Outside the Norm
- Benefits of Continuing Education
🧠 WANT TO LEARN MORE? Be sure to subscribe and check out https://zengig.com/
👋 FOLLOW PETE NEWSOME ONLINE:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/petenewsome/
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@PeteNewsome
👋 FOLLOW RICKY BAEZ ONLINE:
Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/efrainrickybaez/
Blog Articles: https
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Pete Newsome (00:00):
You're listening to the Careers Zen Careers
podcast.
I'm Pete Newsome, joined byRicky Baez.
Ricky, how are you today?
Ricky Baez (00:05):
Pete, it's another beautiful day in central Florida
.
Pete Newsome (00:09):
It's the end of the year, Ricky.
We've made it through 2023.
How are you feeling?
Ricky Baez (00:14):
I still got two more days.
Pete Newsome (00:15):
You're not there yet.
You're not going to call itgood.
Ricky Baez (00:18):
I'm not there yet.
A lot can happen tomorrow andSunday.
Pete Newsome (00:22):
Well, things are changing rapidly.
We know that, right, which isone of the reasons we're talking
about this subject todayCollege.
Who would have thought, if youlook back 10 years ago, that we
would be having thisconversation seriously
questioning whether college isnecessary, whether it makes
sense for young people comingout of high school?
Today, there's a strong case tobe made that it doesn't for a
(00:45):
lot of people, that it's not asvaluable as it used to be.
Does that sound crazy?
Ricky Baez (00:50):
It does sound crazy.
It does it does Because,looking back into when I was
growing up, you and I are bothGeneXers and I'm pretty sure
your parents told you the onlyway to really get a good job is
to get a college education justhow my parents told me.
And here we are, 30 plus yearslater, and we find out that's
not really the case, right?
Pete Newsome (01:09):
Well, a lot of people are still holding on to
it that it is Right.
But you just said the wordsthat always get my attention,
make my skin crawl when I hearit.
It was words that were told tome as well, get a job, yeah Ugh.
I mean, that is just gross to me, right?
But if you're a young personand you have your whole life
ahead of you, you have yourfuture and you're optimistic and
(01:32):
you're looking forward andthinking what is what do I get
to do with my life, what kind ofimpact do I get to have on the
world?
And you're told get a job.
I mean, all right, where's themusic I have?
Where is it?
Ricky Baez (01:46):
You got me, there you go, you get a rig.
Pete Newsome (01:48):
Right.
What a terrible thing to hear.
I think it's demoralizing.
I think it is the polaropposite message that we should
give to young people.
I mean, I was listening to apodcast last night about it.
It was on Joe Rogan, a guy whowas a gold miner.
A gold miner, I mean.
This guy lives in Alaska, doesgold mining.
He finds mammoth bones Like andI'm thinking what a life this
(02:14):
guy's living.
Right, and here I am living aboring existence.
It's a happy existence.
I like what I do, I like whereI am, but there's so much to see
and explore in the world.
And if you're young and told,go to college so you can quote,
get a job, I think that's awful.
I think life should be about somuch more so a question for you
(02:36):
, pete.
Ricky Baez (02:37):
Are you making that assertion now, with the
knowledge you have now, or haveyou've always thought that way,
even back when our parents toldus that we do need to get a job?
Pete Newsome (02:48):
Well, when you're young, your perspective is
limited, right?
You don't know any better.
So I was told that and itdidn't excite me.
I'll tell you that I didn'tknow Really.
No, I didn't know what thatmeant.
I didn't know what I wanted todo, I didn't know necessarily
what my strengths were at thetime.
But I was told, hey, this isthe path you need to take, and
(03:11):
shame on me perhaps, right At 18years old, for not stopping and
really questioning that deeper.
But that's hard to do, I think,for a lot of young people who
college seems safe right.
I wrote a blog about it theother day and that was the
phrase that I use, so I'llrepeat it now College feels safe
.
Going off to Alaska to be agold miner does not feel safe.
Right.
(03:31):
If your kid comes up and saysI'm going to be the next Yukon
Cornelius, right, and hopefullyeveryone gets that reference.
Shame on you if you don't Watchyour Christmas movies, yes.
Then that conversation is notgoing to go well in most
American households, not today.
Ricky Baez (03:50):
Not today.
Well, you know what I take itback?
It might be today.
Today that conversation mightgo well.
Because look back again, backwhen we were growing up to me,
at least to me when my mom toldme here's what I need to do,
because back then, in order foryou to be successful, you needed
two things A job with a pension.
Pete Newsome (04:11):
That's what you needed.
There you go, a pension.
Ricky Baez (04:15):
And 50% of that doesn't exist that much anymore.
Right, a pension is not.
That's something that youhardly ever hear, but back then
that was the goal.
Spend 30 years in anorganization, you get a gold
watch and you get some kind of astipend every month for the
rest of your life, and the onlyway that exists today is to
federal government or themilitary.
Pete Newsome (04:35):
Right.
But if you think about it, thatdependency of you having your
financial future, yourwell-being, tied that closely to
your employer that to me soundsas insane as being told get a
job Like you know, you shouldn'thave to be tied to the employer
(04:56):
.
Now, that's why I'm a big fanof the freelance market, as you
know.
That's not really what we'retalking about today.
We've talked about that enoughon our different shows.
But college is not the given orI'll say, in my strong opinion,
could not be a given for everystudent coming out of high
(05:17):
school, and certainly not asmuch as it was in the past,
right 20 years ago, maybe even10 years ago.
Ricky Baez (05:28):
Here's how I look at it today.
Right, I think the way Americadoes it right now is wrong.
That's just my personal opinion, because and of course I'm
biased with this, because whatI'm about to say is it's how I
experienced it it's the way Ithink the rest of America should
do it, because unless you knowexactly within the bottom of
(05:50):
your heart what you want to dowith your life, you don't Right.
So if you want to be a doctorand you come from a family of
doctors, your life is alreadypre, your career path has
already been paved right.
If you name your kid Jeeps,you've already paved your kid's
career path right.
He's going to be a dang butler,right.
Butler, of course.
Butler right.
(06:11):
Yes, but the way I did it, Ithink it's the best.
I finished high school.
I didn't go to college rightaway.
I went into the, into the, intothe military.
I figured out who I was andwhat I wanted to do, and then I
took college more seriously whenI got out.
Have I started college rightafter high school?
I don't think I would havetaken it as seriously as I would
(06:34):
have after spending four yearstraveling the world and having a
blast.
Pete Newsome (06:39):
And that's such a great point in that you gained
life experience and you matured,you aged, you saw the world
literally in your case, rightand being in the military and so
you had a lot of knowledge thatyou wouldn't have otherwise had
coming out of high school andI'm a big fan of that too, right
(06:59):
?
So maybe that's really thequestion.
It's not about whether collegeis necessary, it's whether
college is Well.
I think that still is thequestion, though, but whether
college is necessary right awayand that's, I think, as much as
anything, an impossible questionto answer if you don't have
enough perspective.
How many people know reallywhat they are going to want to
(07:24):
do 10, 20, 30 years from now,when they're 18 years old?
It's nearly impossible.
Ricky Baez (07:28):
It's nearly impossible, but I think the
question is right.
It's not whether college isvaluable.
I think the question is how canthe person who's thinking about
college, what steps are theytaking to determine their value
with college?
Because college is only as goodas what you're willing to do
(07:51):
with it.
What's the purpose of megaining on that knowledge if I'm
not going to use it?
And we can't say college is thepath to success, because two of
America's most profitablecompanies, microsoft and
actually more, because you gotMicrosoft College Dropout, apple
College Dropout, facebookCollege Dropout you see that
(08:13):
trend here, right?
Pete Newsome (08:17):
Let's add the caveat that we have to.
They were dropping out ofreally good colleges Harvard
there you go, there's yourthumbs up button.
Then they had to work hard toget into in the first place.
They had to be very studious.
They had to have incrediblepotential you don't just end up
there and as much as anything,they were willing to put in the
(08:42):
work independently.
That's a huge X factor in allof this.
Whatever it was, they had thematurity, the drive, the
motivation to build somethingindependently of anyone else.
That is rare.
I don't know that we can counton that being the norm for
everyone to say I'm going tobuild the next Facebook.
(09:03):
But if you're willing to put inthat effort and you have the
right idea, I absolutely agreethat you could be wasting your
time, potentially missing awindow of opportunity if you're
in college.
Ricky Baez (09:17):
But the point I was trying to make with that is to
go to college, just to go tocollege, you're wasting your
time.
There has to be a purpose,there has to be a reason, the
reason your parents told you 20,30 years ago.
That reason changed.
That reason changed.
College provides a muchdifferent value today than what
it did 30, 40 years ago, because30, 40 years ago we didn't have
(09:40):
the education or, I'm sorry, wedidn't have the access to the
information that we do haveright now.
Back then the only place youcan go right was the library.
That's number one, number two,any kind of a cable access
television and if you were lucky, maybe you got some of your
neighbor's HBO, right, and yougot to see some good
documentaries and other things.
(10:01):
But really it depends on yourpurpose.
That's what I'm saying.
And look, this is coming from aprofessor, because I teach at a
college today, right, and I gotto be careful with this.
When a student comes to me,pete, and they ask me you teach,
because they all call me teach,should I go get a master?
Should I do this, should I dothat?
And I stop them, I'm like whatdo you want to do?
(10:21):
Do you want to make money, ordo you want to be knowledgeable
about something, or passionate.
They're like I want to makemoney.
I'm like start a business,start a business, right, you
don't need to go to college tomake money, not here in America.
Right, you can just start abusiness and then you can do it
that way.
Now, if you are passionateabout something, then yeah, go
(10:42):
to college.
Now, the caveat is if you wantto be a doctor, an engineer, an
attorney, you have to go tocollege.
Pete Newsome (10:47):
You have to right.
Ricky Baez (10:48):
The last thing I wanted for someone to operate on
me that they got theirexperience from YouTube.
Pete Newsome (10:55):
Well, I think there's an overlap, though, in
what you just said, wherestarting a business without
knowledge is almost a recipe forfailure.
So gaining knowledge eitherthrough advanced education or
through advanced experiences.
So my staffing business that Istarted 18 years ago didn't
(11:19):
require a college degree, butdid require deep knowledge of
sales, business networking, howto transact everything that I
was going to need to do to runthe business successfully.
So, while it didn't need to begained in college, it did need
to be gained somehow, and Igained that through experience.
(11:43):
So to say, start a business.
I don't think it's that simple,because from the day I started
mine, people would say I want todo that, I want to go start a
business.
And my first question was great, doing what I don't know yet?
Well then, you have no businessthing.
You shouldn't be thinking aboutstarting a business, because
the idea has to drive theopportunity, in my opinion, not
(12:07):
the other way around.
You can't just say I'm Wantedto be an entrepreneur, great,
what are your skills?
Well, I don't have any.
Really off topic, ricky, butit's one of my no, it's not, no,
pete.
I don't think it is.
This is perfect.
I met this guy, uh-huh he, ICertainly is not gonna be
listening this.
I don't mind telling the story.
Okay, but this guy had itappeared to have it all.
(12:31):
When I met him, our kids weremy kids were young at the time I
would see this guy never seemedto be working.
Right when I was where I wouldshow up for, you know, the the
daddy and doughnuts day, anddressed in my suit and tie,
coming from in betweenappointments, this guy was
wearing shorts and t-shirts.
This is.
This is 20 years ago, more than20 years, god.
I was so envious this guy andand One day a mutual friends
(12:55):
said this guy would like to meetwith me because he's looking
for a job.
And the reason he was lookingfor a job?
When he got out of college, hisfamily bought him a business.
They said what do you want todo?
When he picked something Iwon't mention because I maybe it
would come back to him and theybought him a business and it
ran into the ground over acouple of years and then he
found himself needing a job.
So I was seeing this guyrunning around, you know, having
(13:17):
a great time, while he shouldhave been working on this
business, yeah, and so I metwith him.
I said, great, well, let mefind out what he wants to do.
I'm happy to spend a fewminutes.
So we met for coffee and he saidI said, what do you want to do?
He goes well, I really don'twant to work in an office.
Okay, well then, baby sales.
Right, you seem to have goodpersonality Present.
(13:39):
Well, I don't want to have tosell anything.
Okay, well, what, what do you?
What do you have in mind thenthat you think you might be
qualified to do?
Because I'd like to be aconsultant.
And I said consult about whathe said whatever is needed to
help people succeed in business,I thought.
I said I said it delicately I'mlike well, I don't know if you
(14:00):
have those qualifications givenyour recent track record, but go
do your homework, get on thejob boards and see what kind of
positions you think you may bequalified for.
My point is this is someone whodid it the opposite way.
Right Was get handed a businessto run without any experience,
thought that it was a Reasonableto go out in the world and hang
(14:23):
a shingle as a consultantwithout any Real value that they
could bring, and so I think youcould achieve it, either
through experience of work,learning from someone else or
college, but it's not a given.
That's where I think we'relanding with this.
So let's, but let's talk, let'sexplore some pros and cons of
going to college versus not now.
(14:44):
You said a minute ago Someprofessions like if you're going
to be a medical doctor, yep,you have to follow that path,
you have to get the degrees andthe education that goes with it.
So many professions have that.
So that's one.
But what, what else?
What are the other pros andreasons why college is a good
thing?
Ricky Baez (15:02):
Well, I mean, I it's , it's skilled development,
right?
You, you, you.
If you need a specific set ofskills, right, you could only
get through the means of atraditional college format, then
yes, you need that againengineering, law, sciences, all
all of those areas.
So you get networking right.
You get some colleges, thoseIvy League colleges, that it
(15:25):
doesn't matter what you learn,but as soon as you slap the name
of that college of your resume,you're in a fraternity, right?
So that networking is there.
Pete Newsome (15:32):
Yeah, but that that's very rare error, don't
you think?
I don't think that appliesbeyond Maybe 10 schools in the
country then that's, that's veryrare horse doors.
Ricky Baez (15:43):
10 schools, right, but because those 10 schools are
the only ones who would do that.
Now Will you see somebody whohad you know what Hold up?
Not really because askingsituations, pete, where people
have hired other people justbecause they went to UF, just
because they went to FSU, justbecause they went to Miami, the
(16:04):
fraternity is there.
Pete Newsome (16:06):
I Think it's, I think it's loose, if at best,
and that I would not arguethat's a reason to go to college
Because you someone's gonnapotentially hire you because you
went to the same school.
Ricky Baez (16:18):
I think that's I think that's, I don't know.
The movie old school saysdifferent.
Pete Newsome (16:23):
I Mean there's, there's opportunity.
You know, the one of thearguments for is you know, you
gain critical thinking skills,you gain maturity and and well,
yes, but do you really, in thatbubble environment of a college
campus and we've seen a lot inthe news lately about how
(16:45):
college students are behavingpublicly and responding to some
of the things going on in theworld, and it's a bubble that,
and what you can get away within that environment, may not be
the best training for what looklife outside of that environment
is like.
Ricky Baez (17:02):
I kind of think it is.
I kind of think it is becauseif you because I know exactly
what you're talking about yougot these college students that
they feel like they have tostand up for their rights, quote
, unquote and Go ahead and do itand see how society a large
response to that Right, I thinkthe the pushback a college
students would get in thatenvironment is Exactly the
(17:24):
lesson they need.
And what better place to makethat mistake than doing that in
the college format Versus atwork, where your career could be
jeopardized right Only, only,if only, if you learn from the
mistake right, and I thinkthat's what may be lacking with
a lot of the things that we seeright now, where you know you're
, you know the.
Pete Newsome (17:42):
Some of the things going on on college campuses
aren't.
There's no downside to, there'sno penalty for For that were in
the real world.
You can't just decide, hey, I'mgoing to, you know, protest
whatever.
I decide to protest that day atmy, at my job, right in my
profession.
You and I were talking aboutsomething, right before we
started recording, where yousaid, hey, this is something
(18:03):
that I might want to put outsome content on, yeah, but a big
percentage of my clients won'tlike it, so I'm not going to do
it.
That's real right.
That is a real consideration.
You have a belief.
You're you.
You have it for a good reason.
We all have things that we thatare important to us
individually, but we have toconsider what we put out in the,
(18:24):
in the world and and what'sgoing to come back to us.
So, yes, we have freedom to saywhatever we want, but there's
also consequences.
Ricky Baez (18:31):
That's called critical thinking.
Pete Newsome (18:33):
I learned that in college well, you know, but
maybe not right in college.
So that's, but.
But what?
What are the positives?
Let's, let's stay on thepositive track, because I am.
I am a big fan of highereducation, for in the right
circumstances, for the rightindividuals, for the right
reasons, so that's.
(18:53):
I don't want to come across toomuch like I'm not.
Yeah, I want to talk throughthe positives and listen.
I'd be hypocritical as acollege grad, as someone who's
you know, as of Next fall, threeof my four children will be in
college or have graduated fromcollege.
I guess, hopefully by then I'mnot gonna my desk to have will
have graduated, and a third onestarting, and then the fourth is
(19:16):
On that trajectory as well.
I, but if the number four comesand says, hey, I have an
alternative plan, I'm gonna beopen to it.
So, but that's a differentdiscussion.
Ricky Baez (19:28):
I wanted to ask yeah , but no, because it's.
I'm having that conversationright now with my family.
We have a 10 year old right andnow we're starting to have
those conversations where mywife is like no, he's gonna go
to college.
And I'm saying I'm gonna lethim decide.
I'm gonna let him decide If hewants to go to the military
first, I'll support it.
(19:48):
If he wants to go to collegefirst, I'll support it.
If he wants to run, start hisown business, go work for a
little bit, I'll support it.
You know what?
I'm not gonna support Him doingnothing.
I'm not gonna support thatright.
Pete Newsome (20:01):
Well, what's worse , right, or what's better.
Someone going to college isjust to figure it out while
they're there, right, and that'san expensive thing to do.
Or I'm going to go get somereal world experience that may
help me figure it out as I go.
Ricky Baez (20:21):
I'll answer that question with the answer to this
question.
How many people would you guessare currently in their career
path right now, not because theylove the career path they chose
, but because they've alreadyinvested 20 years of their life
into this career path?
Then might as well see youthrough right.
How many people do you think?
(20:43):
What percentage of theworkforce do you think falls
into that category?
Pete Newsome (20:46):
I mean, how many people are dissatisfied with
what they're doing?
But it feels stuck.
I mean, is that really thequestion?
Ricky Baez (20:55):
I don't want to say dissatisfied, but how many?
Well, you know what?
Yeah, how many people are nothappy with their career.
Pete Newsome (21:02):
Or doing it only because they feel like they have
to.
Ricky Baez (21:04):
Because they spend so much time on it already.
Pete Newsome (21:07):
Yeah, I like 20 years into it and most Right,
most so.
Ricky Baez (21:11):
So there's the answer.
There's the answer.
I think if you, if, if, if wepush our kids to go to college
just because that's the thing todo, we run the risk of them
having to pick something becausethey have to go down this road,
and then they're going to endup that way.
I really think the best thingto do is just to be let them be
(21:31):
the driver in their car andyou're be their GPS, right?
Where do you want to take you?
Pete Newsome (21:35):
there Right, when you think about who's advising
young people, it's the, the, theparents that we're talking
about right now, who probablywould have done it differently
if they could have started overand chose it a different path.
I mean, there are people whohave found their careers in and
that's that's ultimately whatwe're talking about here.
That's the goal.
(21:56):
It's not about how you getthere, it's about getting there
where you end up.
And there are people who andI've met lots of them, but but
it's not the majority, right.
And you have high school andcollege counselors giving giving
advice.
It may not be the advice thatthey wish they had followed,
right, but they have to give itthat.
(22:18):
So I've had a couple ofconversations recently with
college career office careerprofessionals who've said I've
said, oh, I have to say this,right, I have to give this
advice.
Right Because it's because ofmy employer.
Is well, is that weird?
Ricky Baez (22:34):
though.
No, it's not good at all at all.
It's, I think, in and look,we've had this conversation
before.
I really think in this is goingto come off wrong.
But I'm going to say it likehow other countries are doing it
right, where people in as soonas they hit 18, they go do two
years in in the military, seewhat the world and life is all
(22:56):
about, and then come back andfigure out what you want to,
what place you want to hold inthis world that you've explored
for a couple of years, right.
So that's what to me right now.
Yes, credibility andrecognition is a good thing if
you go to college and networkingis a good thing.
The critical thinking problem,summary skills, the career
opportunities are all a goodthing.
But I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm going togo on on a limb here.
(23:20):
You can still find those thingswithout going to college.
Pete Newsome (23:24):
You can, and those countries who have that service
requirement.
If it, if, if it were here, Ithink, man, if you, it doesn't
have to be military, it could beany kind of civil service
Something.
What a great thing that wouldbe.
Absolutely, it'd be so muchbetter off.
We're not going to change that,unfortunately.
Ricky Baez (23:39):
Today we should run for president, we should run for
president.
You run for president, I'll beyour VP, and I've been like look
, something happens to my boyover here.
You'll have talk of Tuesdaysevery day.
Pete Newsome (23:53):
Yeah, I'm, but I am surprised that there's.
There has to be reasons thatyou and I haven't explored as to
why that is never talked aboutin the US, but it.
The countries who do have thosepolicies seem to do well by
them.
But you did mention somethingagain as a positive that there's
credibility associated withhaving that college degree,
(24:13):
whether it's deserved or not.
It exists, especially with alot of baby boomers and Gen Xers
who are in the positions ofleadership and authority today.
And so I've been told in my jobas a staffing professional many
times where, hey, this jobrequires this degree.
Why Well, the answer gets alittle fuzzy I left.
(24:37):
Or there's a company that Iworked for years ago who had a
requirement you could not bepromoted above a director level
or maybe even into a directorlevel I can't remember exactly
unless you had a master's degree.
That makes no sense.
How arbitrary is that it wasterrible thing, awful, and yet
that's their policy.
And this was a public companywith thousands of employees.
So these things still exist.
(25:00):
Whether they should or not isirrelevant, and so we have to
acknowledge that at some levelwhen making these decisions and
forming an opinion on is collegeworth it Because that's a real
factor A lot of doors will beclosed to you without a college
degree.
Ricky Baez (25:17):
Still today, and here's what I tell my clients,
right, whenever they ask me totake a look at their job
descriptions, to update them,and I always see college degree
required and I ask why is thatthere?
You don't need that.
You don't need that becausewhat's going to end up for most
positions?
Right, it's again.
We talked about the sciencesand law and everything.
(25:38):
But I tell them you don't needthat because here's what you
want to do and here's what Ilook for.
Pete, I don't look for theeducation you have.
I look for the behaviors thatthe education I'm looking for is
supposed to exhibit.
Right, for example, thedifference between knowledge and
intelligence.
This is you having all thisinformation, knowledge, is you
(26:00):
graduating from college and youget this lambskin that says you
have earned X credit and you nowhave all these skills.
That doesn't mean anything tome.
You know what means everythingto me?
How you use those skills.
Now we're transferring intointelligence, right?
So what I tell people, clients,is, instead of requiring a
(26:22):
degree, put a requirement of theactions that you want, the
behaviors you want to see fromthat degree.
That's way better, because ifyou ask for a degree, you're
going to get just that Somebodythat has the degree but doesn't
necessarily use it right.
So in the interview process,that's what you want to look for
.
Pete Newsome (26:39):
Well, yeah, when it comes to interviewing college
graduates, you have almost twotypes of degrees, and this may
be too much of a generalization.
You have specialized degrees,where someone is going to school
to obtain that degree, to be inthat specific profession.
We've mentioned a couple ofthem.
Right, being a medical doctor,a lawyer, an engineer.
(27:01):
If you get an engineeringdegree, you can change your mind
along the way, of course, butcompanies are going to hire you
out of college with theintention of you being an
engineer for them, right.
But then you take the massivedegrees that exist liberal arts
degrees where companies have noidea what they're hiring an
(27:23):
individual for, and a lot oftimes the individuals have no
idea what kind of job they'reeven qualified for which is to
say not many or what kind of jobthey should pursue, what a I
mean.
Just that alone speaks volumesabout how flawed the system is.
I graduated with a politicalscience degree.
I was qualified professionallyto do absolutely nothing.
(27:47):
That is a fact.
Ricky Baez (27:50):
Wait a minute, pete.
Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
Hold on, hold on, hold on.
You spend four years at leastat an institution where you have
to submit work and you have toearn that work.
So you have shown that when youstart something, you are
committed to it and you'vefinished that project.
You don't think that's a skillset.
Pete Newsome (28:09):
I think that's a stretch right, Really, yeah, I
mean because if you looked at myGPA you would realize I wasn't
that committed to it along theway I did.
I'll just say it.
I did basically the bareminimum to pass the classes that
I need to Now.
(28:30):
I invested a lot of my personaltime, my free time, in student
government while I was a student.
I'm more proud of thoseachievements.
I learned more from thatactivity than I did through the
four years of classes.
So I won't say college was awaste for me, but the college
degree itself didn't provide anyinherent value in what I could
(28:56):
deliver to whoever hired me.
Ricky Baez (28:58):
So here I am almost moving my goalposts because,
based on what you just said, thecollege itself didn't give you
the education you felt like youneeded, but the college
experience did.
Pete Newsome (29:11):
Well, I took it.
Yes, my circumstances led tothat.
It was very involved in studentgovernment for a number of
years and was a student senatorand director of student lobbying
while I was at Florida State.
I did a lot of things that hadnothing to do with being in
(29:32):
school and so, yes, it did.
The environment presented thoseopportunities.
I was involved in a fraternity.
I did things through thatorganization as well and my
network grew.
So, yeah, I mean all thosethings.
Those were in the positivecolumn but those are already
given if you go to college.
You could just as easily go tocollege and not join any clubs,
(29:54):
not be involved in anyextracurriculars, and go through
and have that same politicalscience degree and I would still
argue you're not qualified todo anything with it when you get
out of school.
Ricky Baez (30:06):
I mean no man, I'm still in the fence on that one,
because I have seen situationswhere we have hired people with
a college degree in music and wehired them to do something else
and because in the interviewthey have shown some of the
behaviors that we are lookingfor.
Now we did a discounted justbecause it was a liberal arts
degree, just how you handleyourself with that information
(30:29):
and going forward.
Now I don't make it arequirement, I don't do that.
I do it because, again, I'mlooking for those behaviors.
But I think you can put that onthe positive column that the
college experience is just asvaluable and I use that in air
quotes as the reason you'regoing to college.
The education you get thereright, but the peace people
(30:49):
forget and I cannot stress thisenough, Pete, getting the
education is not enough.
That college degree gets you inthe door.
How you use your college degreeis what keeps you inside of the
other side of that door, andthat's the piece that people
need to fully understand.
Because, as a teacher, pete,let me tell you I cannot tell
you how many times, whenstudents are about to graduate,
(31:11):
they think that the heavens aregoing to open up and jobs are
just going to fall on their lapsand I'm like guys, it so does
not work that way.
You still need, you're stillgoing to start at the bottom.
It's like Navy SEAL, right?
I know a couple of them, right?
Here's the one thing that theyhave told me.
They're like as soon as youfinish buds, like six months of
(31:32):
training, you think you've doneit all, and then you get to the
unit, you're still the boot,you're still the new guy, you're
still the rookie.
They're like you think you'respecial because you finished
that.
No, you still got to do allthese things.
Same thing with a collegeexperience right, you still need
to pay your dues.
Pete Newsome (31:48):
And certainly some degrees.
They could almost be stackranked as far as what
opportunities exist when youcome out, but by default no one
is looking.
Employers aren't seeking outfor specific jobs.
A lot of the students withdegrees that aren't specific to
(32:08):
anything they just aren't.
And the field, and it's becomevery crowded too.
Right, that's another thing.
College degrees used to be moremeaningful because fewer people
had them, and so that's also soyou could make it.
You have to decide, as anemployer, who's more valuable to
(32:29):
you Someone who's been incollege for four years and earns
a degree that really doesn'tapply to your business?
Or someone who was committed tolearning something for four
years that's somewhat related tothe business, or at least
transferable skills, and theystuck to it for four years and
(32:49):
they were promoted along the way, maybe, and they came with all
this actual real worldexperience that they can apply
for you now.
Who's a better hire?
Ricky Baez (32:59):
I don't know If they're hungry.
That's second person.
Pete Newsome (33:03):
That's second person I hire for hunger Pete.
Yeah, and so I think it.
Just we have to acknowledgethat it's checking that box to
get the bachelor's degreedoesn't buy you what it used to,
right?
Is that fair?
Ricky Baez (33:20):
No, it's fair, and it is not the only avenue right,
because the reason our parentstold us that back in the 80s
it's exactly how you said thereisn't.
There was very few people withit, so therefore that degree
made it more valuable.
And the jobs that our parentswere trying to get us away from,
the dirty jobs the plumbers,electricians, constructors
(33:41):
they're the ones making bankright now, pete, when I was a
recruiter for Sears well I mean,I wasn't a recruiter, I was
managing a recruiting team.
You know how hard it was tofind an HVAC tech in California.
We were offering $45 an hourand we cannot find anybody Right
45 bucks an hour.
A lot of people applied, butnot the people with the right
(34:03):
qualifications.
Pete Newsome (34:04):
So yeah, and you can apply that to so many trades
right now that exist wherethere's a shortage.
That is something that you know.
We just did a podcast two weeksago on alternate career paths
and options, so we're going tocontinue to produce a lot of
content, exploring thesedifferent options right and
(34:26):
trying to help young people asmuch as anything else.
I mean, this is really whatit's about Make that
determination without blindlygoing forward and, you know,
saying this is the answer,without asking all the right
questions.
That, to me, is what's mostimportant.
Ricky Baez (34:45):
This is the answer without asking all the right
questions.
I like that.
No seriously.
I like that.
We'll keep it that.
Pete Newsome (34:54):
Yes, I really like that.
Ricky Baez (34:56):
No, because that wow , that part's important, because
sometimes you're asking all thewrong questions and then
somebody's answers it in such away that like I was never even
looking at it that way, oryou're not asking them at all.
Pete Newsome (35:09):
Right, I think the image in my picture of when my
oldest was getting ready to goto high school.
We went to an open house at theschool she ended up going to
and the admissions director putup a slide that I then saw
subsequent times with my otherstudents or students, my kids,
(35:30):
who went to the same high school, but it was a chart of all the
colleges where the grad seniorclass had gone the year before
and the percentage of studentsthat went to college.
That's what they were sellingthe value of that school with,
not how they were going tosucceed, what we're preparing
for them for in the real world.
(35:50):
It was just that metric as themost meaningful one of all, and
I don't think there were anyothers.
And so it was a parent, becausethat's what they knew parents
value and wanted to see.
So who was asking the questionabout whether that was what is
important or most important orwhat happened to those kids?
(36:15):
I'd be more interested in wherethey were 10 years later, right
, 20 years.
Ricky Baez (36:20):
Exactly.
That is a much better KPI.
That right there, not just whowent from that high school, the
people who went, who found acareer they're passionate about,
who is successful in their ownmind right, everybody has a
different definition of success.
Are they happy with what theychose to do?
You show me those metrics.
(36:40):
That is something I'm going touse to make a decision over that
same my kid there.
Just because you got billionsand billions sold McDonald's,
does that?
That doesn't mean I mean it's agreat marketing, but it doesn't
mean it's the best for you.
So that's the number.
I want to look how many of thestudents are happy, are happy
with the choice that that theymade?
Pete Newsome (37:01):
And then we got to define happy.
Well, we all have to definethat for ourselves individually,
and I'll direct anyonelistening to the blog that's on
Zengigcom about finding youricky guy.
Finding, if it's a word you'reunfamiliar with, it's a Japanese
term that we repurposed to.
It really means purpose,finding purpose in life, but
(37:24):
we've changed it around a littlebit to be focused on purpose in
your career, and it's what areyou good at, what are you like
doing, what is the world need,and then what can you be paid
for?
I mean, those four componentsshould all be considered, and
I'm a big fan of that now beinga question that you should pose
to younger people.
It's a question I'm posing tomy children and say consider
(37:49):
those things, take the time toget that right and then choose
your path accordingly.
And if that path is to college,great, that's wonderful, let's
support that, let's encouragethat.
But if it's an alternate path,let's not dismiss it, let's make
sure that we give that equalcredibility and invest time in
(38:11):
learning more about it.
Ricky Baez (38:13):
I think that the best thing we can do to teach
this next generation again is tojust be their GPS, be their GPS
, figure out what makes themtick, figure out what makes them
happy.
And you know what, pete, I juststarted thinking that way about
five years ago, and the reasonI started thinking that way five
years ago is because I startedseeing in social media something
that scared me back then butnow I'm okay with.
(38:35):
I'm seeing a lot of people, alot of young kids, and by young
I mean like out of high school.
Right, they decide to selleverything they own and they go
live in a van.
Have you seen that trend?
Yeah, yeah, at first, no, butat first I'm like, what are they
doing?
But then, the more I thinkabout it, look, are they happy?
(38:55):
Do they have a job?
Do they?
Are they doing what makes themhappy?
And then not hurting?
Yes, then who cares what?
I think right.
If they're happy with it, fine,right.
Pete Newsome (39:06):
Well, and if you're going to do it right,
what a great time to do it as ayoung person.
Ricky Baez (39:11):
Absolutely.
Ah, dude, yes, I tell everyyoung person that I see right
now is get the stuff out of yoursystem right now.
Right and I'm a big proponentEither join the military or
travel the world on your own.
After high school, Remember outwhat is it that you're
passionate about.
And then as long as I hate tosound hokey, but I'm going to
(39:32):
say it as long as what you doyou're happy with, you're
passionate about, it, drives you, the money's going to come
Absolutely.
Pete Newsome (39:42):
The money's going to come.
That's right.
Focus on that.
You and I are in completeagreement on that for sure.
So, ricky, I think we'vecovered this enough for today.
I encourage anyone listening.
If you're a parent of a youngperson, if you are a young
person trying to figure this out, follow us on Zengig.
Get on our website Zengig.
com.
This is what we're focused onnow.
This is a direction we're goingin.
(40:03):
We're really trying to helpyoung people figure this out,
and we're going to figure it outalong the way, too, because
we're posing some questions andexploring some things that
aren't necessarily going to bepopular with a lot of folks.
Some of the conversations I'vehad with colleges recently who I
want to partner with, theydon't like when we bring this
topic up.
Ricky Baez (40:23):
They're not a fan of it.
Pete Newsome (40:24):
One the why but we have to be true to what we
believe is real and we're goingto do that.
And so we're going to push thisand we're going to question it
and I'm going to do my best totake it to the high school level
too and see how much thismessage is really being shared
with young people who may stillbe told go get a job, go get a
(40:47):
degree so you can get a job.
We know that's datedinformation now and there's so
much more to a profession and acareer and the world at large.
So we're going to keep pushingthe envelope.
If you have questions for us,super easy questions at
zengeggcom.
We'd love to hear from you.
And, of course, if you couldrate and review the show five
stars, that would be awesome somore people can listen.
(41:08):
Anything else, ricky, or do we?
Ricky Baez (41:09):
cover it all.
No, no, I think we bid acertain animal to death.
Pete Newsome (41:14):
I think we did.
Ricky Baez (41:15):
With this one.
Pete Newsome (41:16):
So we're good.
We did that All right.
Well, happy New Year everyone.
Let's make it a great 2024.
Thank you, as always.
Ricky Baez (41:22):
Thank you, have a good one and yeah, I'm sticking
with Miami.
Still Go ahead.
You're listening to the Careers Zen Careers
podcast.
I'm Pete Newsome, joined byRicky Baez.
Ricky, how are you today?
Ricky Baez (00:05):
Pete, it's another beautiful day in central Florida
.
Pete Newsome (00:09):
It's the end of the year, Ricky.
We've made it through 2023.
How are you feeling?
Ricky Baez (00:14):
I still got two more days.
Pete Newsome (00:15):
You're not there yet.
You're not going to call itgood.
Ricky Baez (00:18):
I'm not there yet.
A lot can happen tomorrow andSunday.
Pete Newsome (00:22):
Well, things are changing rapidly.
We know that, right, which isone of the reasons we're talking
about this subject todayCollege.
Who would have thought, if youlook back 10 years ago, that we
would be having thisconversation seriously
questioning whether college isnecessary, whether it makes
sense for young people comingout of high school?
Today, there's a strong case tobe made that it doesn't for a
(00:45):
lot of people, that it's not asvaluable as it used to be.
Does that sound crazy?
Ricky Baez (00:50):
It does sound crazy.
It does it does Because,looking back into when I was
growing up, you and I are bothGeneXers and I'm pretty sure
your parents told you the onlyway to really get a good job is
to get a college education justhow my parents told me.
And here we are, 30 plus yearslater, and we find out that's
not really the case, right?
Pete Newsome (01:09):
Well, a lot of people are still holding on to
it that it is Right.
But you just said the wordsthat always get my attention,
make my skin crawl when I hearit.
It was words that were told tome as well, get a job, yeah Ugh.
I mean, that is just gross to me, right?
But if you're a young personand you have your whole life
ahead of you, you have yourfuture and you're optimistic and
(01:32):
you're looking forward andthinking what is what do I get
to do with my life, what kind ofimpact do I get to have on the
world?
And you're told get a job.
I mean, all right, where's themusic I have?
Where is it?
Ricky Baez (01:46):
You got me, there you go, you get a rig.
Pete Newsome (01:48):
Right.
What a terrible thing to hear.
I think it's demoralizing.
I think it is the polaropposite message that we should
give to young people.
I mean, I was listening to apodcast last night about it.
It was on Joe Rogan, a guy whowas a gold miner.
A gold miner, I mean.
This guy lives in Alaska, doesgold mining.
He finds mammoth bones Like andI'm thinking what a life this
(02:14):
guy's living.
Right, and here I am living aboring existence.
It's a happy existence.
I like what I do, I like whereI am, but there's so much to see
and explore in the world.
And if you're young and told,go to college so you can quote,
get a job, I think that's awful.
I think life should be about somuch more so a question for you
(02:36):
, pete.
Ricky Baez (02:37):
Are you making that assertion now, with the
knowledge you have now, or haveyou've always thought that way,
even back when our parents toldus that we do need to get a job?
Pete Newsome (02:48):
Well, when you're young, your perspective is
limited, right?
You don't know any better.
So I was told that and itdidn't excite me.
I'll tell you that I didn'tknow Really.
No, I didn't know what thatmeant.
I didn't know what I wanted todo, I didn't know necessarily
what my strengths were at thetime.
But I was told, hey, this isthe path you need to take, and
(03:11):
shame on me perhaps, right At 18years old, for not stopping and
really questioning that deeper.
But that's hard to do, I think,for a lot of young people who
college seems safe right.
I wrote a blog about it theother day and that was the
phrase that I use, so I'llrepeat it now College feels safe
.
Going off to Alaska to be agold miner does not feel safe.
Right.
(03:31):
If your kid comes up and saysI'm going to be the next Yukon
Cornelius, right, and hopefullyeveryone gets that reference.
Shame on you if you don't Watchyour Christmas movies, yes.
Then that conversation is notgoing to go well in most
American households, not today.
Ricky Baez (03:50):
Not today.
Well, you know what I take itback?
It might be today.
Today that conversation mightgo well.
Because look back again, backwhen we were growing up to me,
at least to me when my mom toldme here's what I need to do,
because back then, in order foryou to be successful, you needed
two things A job with a pension.
Pete Newsome (04:11):
That's what you needed.
There you go, a pension.
Ricky Baez (04:15):
And 50% of that doesn't exist that much anymore.
Right, a pension is not.
That's something that youhardly ever hear, but back then
that was the goal.
Spend 30 years in anorganization, you get a gold
watch and you get some kind of astipend every month for the
rest of your life, and the onlyway that exists today is to
federal government or themilitary.
Pete Newsome (04:35):
Right.
But if you think about it, thatdependency of you having your
financial future, yourwell-being, tied that closely to
your employer that to me soundsas insane as being told get a
job Like you know, you shouldn'thave to be tied to the employer
(04:56):
.
Now, that's why I'm a big fanof the freelance market, as you
know.
That's not really what we'retalking about today.
We've talked about that enoughon our different shows.
But college is not the given orI'll say, in my strong opinion,
could not be a given for everystudent coming out of high
(05:17):
school, and certainly not asmuch as it was in the past,
right 20 years ago, maybe even10 years ago.
Ricky Baez (05:28):
Here's how I look at it today.
Right, I think the way Americadoes it right now is wrong.
That's just my personal opinion, because and of course I'm
biased with this, because whatI'm about to say is it's how I
experienced it it's the way Ithink the rest of America should
do it, because unless you knowexactly within the bottom of
(05:50):
your heart what you want to dowith your life, you don't Right.
So if you want to be a doctorand you come from a family of
doctors, your life is alreadypre, your career path has
already been paved right.
If you name your kid Jeeps,you've already paved your kid's
career path right.
He's going to be a dang butler,right.
Butler, of course.
Butler right.
(06:11):
Yes, but the way I did it, Ithink it's the best.
I finished high school.
I didn't go to college rightaway.
I went into the, into the, intothe military.
I figured out who I was andwhat I wanted to do, and then I
took college more seriously whenI got out.
Have I started college rightafter high school?
I don't think I would havetaken it as seriously as I would
(06:34):
have after spending four yearstraveling the world and having a
blast.
Pete Newsome (06:39):
And that's such a great point in that you gained
life experience and you matured,you aged, you saw the world
literally in your case, rightand being in the military and so
you had a lot of knowledge thatyou wouldn't have otherwise had
coming out of high school andI'm a big fan of that too, right
(06:59):
?
So maybe that's really thequestion.
It's not about whether collegeis necessary, it's whether
college is Well.
I think that still is thequestion, though, but whether
college is necessary right awayand that's, I think, as much as
anything, an impossible questionto answer if you don't have
enough perspective.
How many people know reallywhat they are going to want to
(07:24):
do 10, 20, 30 years from now,when they're 18 years old?
It's nearly impossible.
Ricky Baez (07:28):
It's nearly impossible, but I think the
question is right.
It's not whether college isvaluable.
I think the question is how canthe person who's thinking about
college, what steps are theytaking to determine their value
with college?
Because college is only as goodas what you're willing to do
(07:51):
with it.
What's the purpose of megaining on that knowledge if I'm
not going to use it?
And we can't say college is thepath to success, because two of
America's most profitablecompanies, microsoft and
actually more, because you gotMicrosoft College Dropout, apple
College Dropout, facebookCollege Dropout you see that
(08:13):
trend here, right?
Pete Newsome (08:17):
Let's add the caveat that we have to.
They were dropping out ofreally good colleges Harvard
there you go, there's yourthumbs up button.
Then they had to work hard toget into in the first place.
They had to be very studious.
They had to have incrediblepotential you don't just end up
there and as much as anything,they were willing to put in the
(08:42):
work independently.
That's a huge X factor in allof this.
Whatever it was, they had thematurity, the drive, the
motivation to build somethingindependently of anyone else.
That is rare.
I don't know that we can counton that being the norm for
everyone to say I'm going tobuild the next Facebook.
(09:03):
But if you're willing to put inthat effort and you have the
right idea, I absolutely agreethat you could be wasting your
time, potentially missing awindow of opportunity if you're
in college.
Ricky Baez (09:17):
But the point I was trying to make with that is to
go to college, just to go tocollege, you're wasting your
time.
There has to be a purpose,there has to be a reason, the
reason your parents told you 20,30 years ago.
That reason changed.
That reason changed.
College provides a muchdifferent value today than what
it did 30, 40 years ago, because30, 40 years ago we didn't have
(09:40):
the education or, I'm sorry, wedidn't have the access to the
information that we do haveright now.
Back then the only place youcan go right was the library.
That's number one, number two,any kind of a cable access
television and if you were lucky, maybe you got some of your
neighbor's HBO, right, and yougot to see some good
documentaries and other things.
(10:01):
But really it depends on yourpurpose.
That's what I'm saying.
And look, this is coming from aprofessor, because I teach at a
college today, right, and I gotto be careful with this.
When a student comes to me,pete, and they ask me you teach,
because they all call me teach,should I go get a master?
Should I do this, should I dothat?
And I stop them, I'm like whatdo you want to do?
(10:21):
Do you want to make money, ordo you want to be knowledgeable
about something, or passionate.
They're like I want to makemoney.
I'm like start a business,start a business, right, you
don't need to go to college tomake money, not here in America.
Right, you can just start abusiness and then you can do it
that way.
Now, if you are passionateabout something, then yeah, go
(10:42):
to college.
Now, the caveat is if you wantto be a doctor, an engineer, an
attorney, you have to go tocollege.
Pete Newsome (10:47):
You have to right.
Ricky Baez (10:48):
The last thing I wanted for someone to operate on
me that they got theirexperience from YouTube.
Pete Newsome (10:55):
Well, I think there's an overlap, though, in
what you just said, wherestarting a business without
knowledge is almost a recipe forfailure.
So gaining knowledge eitherthrough advanced education or
through advanced experiences.
So my staffing business that Istarted 18 years ago didn't
(11:19):
require a college degree, butdid require deep knowledge of
sales, business networking, howto transact everything that I
was going to need to do to runthe business successfully.
So, while it didn't need to begained in college, it did need
to be gained somehow, and Igained that through experience.
(11:43):
So to say, start a business.
I don't think it's that simple,because from the day I started
mine, people would say I want todo that, I want to go start a
business.
And my first question was great, doing what I don't know yet?
Well then, you have no businessthing.
You shouldn't be thinking aboutstarting a business, because
the idea has to drive theopportunity, in my opinion, not
(12:07):
the other way around.
You can't just say I'm Wantedto be an entrepreneur, great,
what are your skills?
Well, I don't have any.
Really off topic, ricky, butit's one of my no, it's not, no,
pete.
I don't think it is.
This is perfect.
I met this guy, uh-huh he, ICertainly is not gonna be
listening this.
I don't mind telling the story.
Okay, but this guy had itappeared to have it all.
(12:31):
When I met him, our kids weremy kids were young at the time I
would see this guy never seemedto be working.
Right when I was where I wouldshow up for, you know, the the
daddy and doughnuts day, anddressed in my suit and tie,
coming from in betweenappointments, this guy was
wearing shorts and t-shirts.
This is.
This is 20 years ago, more than20 years, god.
I was so envious this guy andand One day a mutual friends
(12:55):
said this guy would like to meetwith me because he's looking
for a job.
And the reason he was lookingfor a job?
When he got out of college, hisfamily bought him a business.
They said what do you want todo?
When he picked something Iwon't mention because I maybe it
would come back to him and theybought him a business and it
ran into the ground over acouple of years and then he
found himself needing a job.
So I was seeing this guyrunning around, you know, having
(13:17):
a great time, while he shouldhave been working on this
business, yeah, and so I metwith him.
I said, great, well, let mefind out what he wants to do.
I'm happy to spend a fewminutes.
So we met for coffee and he saidI said, what do you want to do?
He goes well, I really don'twant to work in an office.
Okay, well then, baby sales.
Right, you seem to have goodpersonality Present.
(13:39):
Well, I don't want to have tosell anything.
Okay, well, what, what do you?
What do you have in mind thenthat you think you might be
qualified to do?
Because I'd like to be aconsultant.
And I said consult about whathe said whatever is needed to
help people succeed in business,I thought.
I said I said it delicately I'mlike well, I don't know if you
(14:00):
have those qualifications givenyour recent track record, but go
do your homework, get on thejob boards and see what kind of
positions you think you may bequalified for.
My point is this is someone whodid it the opposite way.
Right Was get handed a businessto run without any experience,
thought that it was a Reasonableto go out in the world and hang
(14:23):
a shingle as a consultantwithout any Real value that they
could bring, and so I think youcould achieve it, either
through experience of work,learning from someone else or
college, but it's not a given.
That's where I think we'relanding with this.
So let's, but let's talk, let'sexplore some pros and cons of
going to college versus not now.
(14:44):
You said a minute ago Someprofessions like if you're going
to be a medical doctor, yep,you have to follow that path,
you have to get the degrees andthe education that goes with it.
So many professions have that.
So that's one.
But what, what else?
What are the other pros andreasons why college is a good
thing?
Ricky Baez (15:02):
Well, I mean, I it's , it's skilled development,
right?
You, you, you.
If you need a specific set ofskills, right, you could only
get through the means of atraditional college format, then
yes, you need that againengineering, law, sciences, all
all of those areas.
So you get networking right.
You get some colleges, thoseIvy League colleges, that it
(15:25):
doesn't matter what you learn,but as soon as you slap the name
of that college of your resume,you're in a fraternity, right?
So that networking is there.
Pete Newsome (15:32):
Yeah, but that that's very rare error, don't
you think?
I don't think that appliesbeyond Maybe 10 schools in the
country then that's, that's veryrare horse doors.
Ricky Baez (15:43):
10 schools, right, but because those 10 schools are
the only ones who would do that.
Now Will you see somebody whohad you know what Hold up?
Not really because askingsituations, pete, where people
have hired other people justbecause they went to UF, just
because they went to FSU, justbecause they went to Miami, the
(16:04):
fraternity is there.
Pete Newsome (16:06):
I Think it's, I think it's loose, if at best,
and that I would not arguethat's a reason to go to college
Because you someone's gonnapotentially hire you because you
went to the same school.
Ricky Baez (16:18):
I think that's I think that's, I don't know.
The movie old school saysdifferent.
Pete Newsome (16:23):
I Mean there's, there's opportunity.
You know, the one of thearguments for is you know, you
gain critical thinking skills,you gain maturity and and well,
yes, but do you really, in thatbubble environment of a college
campus and we've seen a lot inthe news lately about how
(16:45):
college students are behavingpublicly and responding to some
of the things going on in theworld, and it's a bubble that,
and what you can get away within that environment, may not be
the best training for what looklife outside of that environment
is like.
Ricky Baez (17:02):
I kind of think it is.
I kind of think it is becauseif you because I know exactly
what you're talking about yougot these college students that
they feel like they have tostand up for their rights, quote
, unquote and Go ahead and do itand see how society a large
response to that Right, I thinkthe the pushback a college
students would get in thatenvironment is Exactly the
(17:24):
lesson they need.
And what better place to makethat mistake than doing that in
the college format Versus atwork, where your career could be
jeopardized right Only, only,if only, if you learn from the
mistake right, and I thinkthat's what may be lacking with
a lot of the things that we seeright now, where you know you're
, you know the.
Pete Newsome (17:42):
Some of the things going on on college campuses
aren't.
There's no downside to, there'sno penalty for For that were in
the real world.
You can't just decide, hey, I'mgoing to, you know, protest
whatever.
I decide to protest that day atmy, at my job, right in my
profession.
You and I were talking aboutsomething, right before we
started recording, where yousaid, hey, this is something
(18:03):
that I might want to put outsome content on, yeah, but a big
percentage of my clients won'tlike it, so I'm not going to do
it.
That's real right.
That is a real consideration.
You have a belief.
You're you.
You have it for a good reason.
We all have things that we thatare important to us
individually, but we have toconsider what we put out in the,
(18:24):
in the world and and what'sgoing to come back to us.
So, yes, we have freedom to saywhatever we want, but there's
also consequences.
Ricky Baez (18:31):
That's called critical thinking.
Pete Newsome (18:33):
I learned that in college well, you know, but
maybe not right in college.
So that's, but.
But what?
What are the positives?
Let's, let's stay on thepositive track, because I am.
I am a big fan of highereducation, for in the right
circumstances, for the rightindividuals, for the right
reasons, so that's.
(18:53):
I don't want to come across toomuch like I'm not.
Yeah, I want to talk throughthe positives and listen.
I'd be hypocritical as acollege grad, as someone who's
you know, as of Next fall, threeof my four children will be in
college or have graduated fromcollege.
I guess, hopefully by then I'mnot gonna my desk to have will
have graduated, and a third onestarting, and then the fourth is
(19:16):
On that trajectory as well.
I, but if the number four comesand says, hey, I have an
alternative plan, I'm gonna beopen to it.
So, but that's a differentdiscussion.
Ricky Baez (19:28):
I wanted to ask yeah , but no, because it's.
I'm having that conversationright now with my family.
We have a 10 year old right andnow we're starting to have
those conversations where mywife is like no, he's gonna go
to college.
And I'm saying I'm gonna lethim decide.
I'm gonna let him decide If hewants to go to the military
first, I'll support it.
(19:48):
If he wants to go to collegefirst, I'll support it.
If he wants to run, start hisown business, go work for a
little bit, I'll support it.
You know what?
I'm not gonna support Him doingnothing.
I'm not gonna support thatright.
Pete Newsome (20:01):
Well, what's worse , right, or what's better.
Someone going to college isjust to figure it out while
they're there, right, and that'san expensive thing to do.
Or I'm going to go get somereal world experience that may
help me figure it out as I go.
Ricky Baez (20:21):
I'll answer that question with the answer to this
question.
How many people would you guessare currently in their career
path right now, not because theylove the career path they chose
, but because they've alreadyinvested 20 years of their life
into this career path?
Then might as well see youthrough right.
How many people do you think?
(20:43):
What percentage of theworkforce do you think falls
into that category?
Pete Newsome (20:46):
I mean, how many people are dissatisfied with
what they're doing?
But it feels stuck.
I mean, is that really thequestion?
Ricky Baez (20:55):
I don't want to say dissatisfied, but how many?
Well, you know what?
Yeah, how many people are nothappy with their career.
Pete Newsome (21:02):
Or doing it only because they feel like they have
to.
Ricky Baez (21:04):
Because they spend so much time on it already.
Pete Newsome (21:07):
Yeah, I like 20 years into it and most Right,
most so.
Ricky Baez (21:11):
So there's the answer.
There's the answer.
I think if you, if, if, if wepush our kids to go to college
just because that's the thing todo, we run the risk of them
having to pick something becausethey have to go down this road,
and then they're going to endup that way.
I really think the best thingto do is just to be let them be
(21:31):
the driver in their car andyou're be their GPS, right?
Where do you want to take you?
Pete Newsome (21:35):
there Right, when you think about who's advising
young people, it's the, the, theparents that we're talking
about right now, who probablywould have done it differently
if they could have started overand chose it a different path.
I mean, there are people whohave found their careers in and
that's that's ultimately whatwe're talking about here.
That's the goal.
(21:56):
It's not about how you getthere, it's about getting there
where you end up.
And there are people who andI've met lots of them, but but
it's not the majority, right.
And you have high school andcollege counselors giving giving
advice.
It may not be the advice thatthey wish they had followed,
right, but they have to give itthat.
(22:18):
So I've had a couple ofconversations recently with
college career office careerprofessionals who've said I've
said, oh, I have to say this,right, I have to give this
advice.
Right Because it's because ofmy employer.
Is well, is that weird?
Ricky Baez (22:34):
though.
No, it's not good at all at all.
It's, I think, in and look,we've had this conversation
before.
I really think in this is goingto come off wrong.
But I'm going to say it likehow other countries are doing it
right, where people in as soonas they hit 18, they go do two
years in in the military, seewhat the world and life is all
(22:56):
about, and then come back andfigure out what you want to,
what place you want to hold inthis world that you've explored
for a couple of years, right.
So that's what to me right now.
Yes, credibility andrecognition is a good thing if
you go to college and networkingis a good thing.
The critical thinking problem,summary skills, the career
opportunities are all a goodthing.
But I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm going togo on on a limb here.
(23:20):
You can still find those thingswithout going to college.
Pete Newsome (23:24):
You can, and those countries who have that service
requirement.
If it, if, if it were here, Ithink, man, if you, it doesn't
have to be military, it could beany kind of civil service
Something.
What a great thing that wouldbe.
Absolutely, it'd be so muchbetter off.
We're not going to change that,unfortunately.
Ricky Baez (23:39):
Today we should run for president, we should run for
president.
You run for president, I'll beyour VP, and I've been like look
, something happens to my boyover here.
You'll have talk of Tuesdaysevery day.
Pete Newsome (23:53):
Yeah, I'm, but I am surprised that there's.
There has to be reasons thatyou and I haven't explored as to
why that is never talked aboutin the US, but it.
The countries who do have thosepolicies seem to do well by
them.
But you did mention somethingagain as a positive that there's
credibility associated withhaving that college degree,
(24:13):
whether it's deserved or not.
It exists, especially with alot of baby boomers and Gen Xers
who are in the positions ofleadership and authority today.
And so I've been told in my jobas a staffing professional many
times where, hey, this jobrequires this degree.
Why Well, the answer gets alittle fuzzy I left.
(24:37):
Or there's a company that Iworked for years ago who had a
requirement you could not bepromoted above a director level
or maybe even into a directorlevel I can't remember exactly
unless you had a master's degree.
That makes no sense.
How arbitrary is that it wasterrible thing, awful, and yet
that's their policy.
And this was a public companywith thousands of employees.
So these things still exist.
(25:00):
Whether they should or not isirrelevant, and so we have to
acknowledge that at some levelwhen making these decisions and
forming an opinion on is collegeworth it Because that's a real
factor A lot of doors will beclosed to you without a college
degree.
Ricky Baez (25:17):
Still today, and here's what I tell my clients,
right, whenever they ask me totake a look at their job
descriptions, to update them,and I always see college degree
required and I ask why is thatthere?
You don't need that.
You don't need that becausewhat's going to end up for most
positions?
Right, it's again.
We talked about the sciencesand law and everything.
(25:38):
But I tell them you don't needthat because here's what you
want to do and here's what Ilook for.
Pete, I don't look for theeducation you have.
I look for the behaviors thatthe education I'm looking for is
supposed to exhibit.
Right, for example, thedifference between knowledge and
intelligence.
This is you having all thisinformation, knowledge, is you
(26:00):
graduating from college and youget this lambskin that says you
have earned X credit and you nowhave all these skills.
That doesn't mean anything tome.
You know what means everythingto me?
How you use those skills.
Now we're transferring intointelligence, right?
So what I tell people, clients,is, instead of requiring a
(26:22):
degree, put a requirement of theactions that you want, the
behaviors you want to see fromthat degree.
That's way better, because ifyou ask for a degree, you're
going to get just that Somebodythat has the degree but doesn't
necessarily use it right.
So in the interview process,that's what you want to look for
.
Pete Newsome (26:39):
Well, yeah, when it comes to interviewing college
graduates, you have almost twotypes of degrees, and this may
be too much of a generalization.
You have specialized degrees,where someone is going to school
to obtain that degree, to be inthat specific profession.
We've mentioned a couple ofthem.
Right, being a medical doctor,a lawyer, an engineer.
(27:01):
If you get an engineeringdegree, you can change your mind
along the way, of course, butcompanies are going to hire you
out of college with theintention of you being an
engineer for them, right.
But then you take the massivedegrees that exist liberal arts
degrees where companies have noidea what they're hiring an
(27:23):
individual for, and a lot oftimes the individuals have no
idea what kind of job they'reeven qualified for which is to
say not many or what kind of jobthey should pursue, what a I
mean.
Just that alone speaks volumesabout how flawed the system is.
I graduated with a politicalscience degree.
I was qualified professionallyto do absolutely nothing.
(27:47):
That is a fact.
Ricky Baez (27:50):
Wait a minute, pete.
Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
Hold on, hold on, hold on.
You spend four years at leastat an institution where you have
to submit work and you have toearn that work.
So you have shown that when youstart something, you are
committed to it and you'vefinished that project.
You don't think that's a skillset.
Pete Newsome (28:09):
I think that's a stretch right, Really, yeah, I
mean because if you looked at myGPA you would realize I wasn't
that committed to it along theway I did.
I'll just say it.
I did basically the bareminimum to pass the classes that
I need to Now.
(28:30):
I invested a lot of my personaltime, my free time, in student
government while I was a student.
I'm more proud of thoseachievements.
I learned more from thatactivity than I did through the
four years of classes.
So I won't say college was awaste for me, but the college
degree itself didn't provide anyinherent value in what I could
(28:56):
deliver to whoever hired me.
Ricky Baez (28:58):
So here I am almost moving my goalposts because,
based on what you just said, thecollege itself didn't give you
the education you felt like youneeded, but the college
experience did.
Pete Newsome (29:11):
Well, I took it.
Yes, my circumstances led tothat.
It was very involved in studentgovernment for a number of
years and was a student senatorand director of student lobbying
while I was at Florida State.
I did a lot of things that hadnothing to do with being in
(29:32):
school and so, yes, it did.
The environment presented thoseopportunities.
I was involved in a fraternity.
I did things through thatorganization as well and my
network grew.
So, yeah, I mean all thosethings.
Those were in the positivecolumn but those are already
given if you go to college.
You could just as easily go tocollege and not join any clubs,
(29:54):
not be involved in anyextracurriculars, and go through
and have that same politicalscience degree and I would still
argue you're not qualified todo anything with it when you get
out of school.
Ricky Baez (30:06):
I mean no man, I'm still in the fence on that one,
because I have seen situationswhere we have hired people with
a college degree in music and wehired them to do something else
and because in the interviewthey have shown some of the
behaviors that we are lookingfor.
Now we did a discounted justbecause it was a liberal arts
degree, just how you handleyourself with that information
(30:29):
and going forward.
Now I don't make it arequirement, I don't do that.
I do it because, again, I'mlooking for those behaviors.
But I think you can put that onthe positive column that the
college experience is just asvaluable and I use that in air
quotes as the reason you'regoing to college.
The education you get thereright, but the peace people
(30:49):
forget and I cannot stress thisenough, Pete, getting the
education is not enough.
That college degree gets you inthe door.
How you use your college degreeis what keeps you inside of the
other side of that door, andthat's the piece that people
need to fully understand.
Because, as a teacher, pete,let me tell you I cannot tell
you how many times, whenstudents are about to graduate,
(31:11):
they think that the heavens aregoing to open up and jobs are
just going to fall on their lapsand I'm like guys, it so does
not work that way.
You still need, you're stillgoing to start at the bottom.
It's like Navy SEAL, right?
I know a couple of them, right?
Here's the one thing that theyhave told me.
They're like as soon as youfinish buds, like six months of
(31:32):
training, you think you've doneit all, and then you get to the
unit, you're still the boot,you're still the new guy, you're
still the rookie.
They're like you think you'respecial because you finished
that.
No, you still got to do allthese things.
Same thing with a collegeexperience right, you still need
to pay your dues.
Pete Newsome (31:48):
And certainly some degrees.
They could almost be stackranked as far as what
opportunities exist when youcome out, but by default no one
is looking.
Employers aren't seeking outfor specific jobs.
A lot of the students withdegrees that aren't specific to
(32:08):
anything they just aren't.
And the field, and it's becomevery crowded too.
Right, that's another thing.
College degrees used to be moremeaningful because fewer people
had them, and so that's also soyou could make it.
You have to decide, as anemployer, who's more valuable to
(32:29):
you Someone who's been incollege for four years and earns
a degree that really doesn'tapply to your business?
Or someone who was committed tolearning something for four
years that's somewhat related tothe business, or at least
transferable skills, and theystuck to it for four years and
(32:49):
they were promoted along the way, maybe, and they came with all
this actual real worldexperience that they can apply
for you now.
Who's a better hire?
Ricky Baez (32:59):
I don't know If they're hungry.
That's second person.
Pete Newsome (33:03):
That's second person I hire for hunger Pete.
Yeah, and so I think it.
Just we have to acknowledgethat it's checking that box to
get the bachelor's degreedoesn't buy you what it used to,
right?
Is that fair?
Ricky Baez (33:20):
No, it's fair, and it is not the only avenue right,
because the reason our parentstold us that back in the 80s
it's exactly how you said thereisn't.
There was very few people withit, so therefore that degree
made it more valuable.
And the jobs that our parentswere trying to get us away from,
the dirty jobs the plumbers,electricians, constructors
(33:41):
they're the ones making bankright now, pete, when I was a
recruiter for Sears well I mean,I wasn't a recruiter, I was
managing a recruiting team.
You know how hard it was tofind an HVAC tech in California.
We were offering $45 an hourand we cannot find anybody Right
45 bucks an hour.
A lot of people applied, butnot the people with the right
(34:03):
qualifications.
Pete Newsome (34:04):
So yeah, and you can apply that to so many trades
right now that exist wherethere's a shortage.
That is something that you know.
We just did a podcast two weeksago on alternate career paths
and options, so we're going tocontinue to produce a lot of
content, exploring thesedifferent options right and
(34:26):
trying to help young people asmuch as anything else.
I mean, this is really whatit's about Make that
determination without blindlygoing forward and, you know,
saying this is the answer,without asking all the right
questions.
That, to me, is what's mostimportant.
Ricky Baez (34:45):
This is the answer without asking all the right
questions.
I like that.
No seriously.
I like that.
We'll keep it that.
Pete Newsome (34:54):
Yes, I really like that.
Ricky Baez (34:56):
No, because that wow , that part's important, because
sometimes you're asking all thewrong questions and then
somebody's answers it in such away that like I was never even
looking at it that way, oryou're not asking them at all.
Pete Newsome (35:09):
Right, I think the image in my picture of when my
oldest was getting ready to goto high school.
We went to an open house at theschool she ended up going to
and the admissions director putup a slide that I then saw
subsequent times with my otherstudents or students, my kids,
(35:30):
who went to the same high school, but it was a chart of all the
colleges where the grad seniorclass had gone the year before
and the percentage of studentsthat went to college.
That's what they were sellingthe value of that school with,
not how they were going tosucceed, what we're preparing
for them for in the real world.
(35:50):
It was just that metric as themost meaningful one of all, and
I don't think there were anyothers.
And so it was a parent, becausethat's what they knew parents
value and wanted to see.
So who was asking the questionabout whether that was what is
important or most important orwhat happened to those kids?
(36:15):
I'd be more interested in wherethey were 10 years later, right
, 20 years.
Ricky Baez (36:20):
Exactly.
That is a much better KPI.
That right there, not just whowent from that high school, the
people who went, who found acareer they're passionate about,
who is successful in their ownmind right, everybody has a
different definition of success.
Are they happy with what theychose to do?
You show me those metrics.
(36:40):
That is something I'm going touse to make a decision over that
same my kid there.
Just because you got billionsand billions sold McDonald's,
does that?
That doesn't mean I mean it's agreat marketing, but it doesn't
mean it's the best for you.
So that's the number.
I want to look how many of thestudents are happy, are happy
with the choice that that theymade?
Pete Newsome (37:01):
And then we got to define happy.
Well, we all have to definethat for ourselves individually,
and I'll direct anyonelistening to the blog that's on
Zengigcom about finding youricky guy.
Finding, if it's a word you'reunfamiliar with, it's a Japanese
term that we repurposed to.
It really means purpose,finding purpose in life, but
(37:24):
we've changed it around a littlebit to be focused on purpose in
your career, and it's what areyou good at, what are you like
doing, what is the world need,and then what can you be paid
for?
I mean, those four componentsshould all be considered, and
I'm a big fan of that now beinga question that you should pose
to younger people.
It's a question I'm posing tomy children and say consider
(37:49):
those things, take the time toget that right and then choose
your path accordingly.
And if that path is to college,great, that's wonderful, let's
support that, let's encouragethat.
But if it's an alternate path,let's not dismiss it, let's make
sure that we give that equalcredibility and invest time in
(38:11):
learning more about it.
Ricky Baez (38:13):
I think that the best thing we can do to teach
this next generation again is tojust be their GPS, be their GPS
, figure out what makes themtick, figure out what makes them
happy.
And you know what, pete, I juststarted thinking that way about
five years ago, and the reasonI started thinking that way five
years ago is because I startedseeing in social media something
that scared me back then butnow I'm okay with.
(38:35):
I'm seeing a lot of people, alot of young kids, and by young
I mean like out of high school.
Right, they decide to selleverything they own and they go
live in a van.
Have you seen that trend?
Yeah, yeah, at first, no, butat first I'm like, what are they
doing?
But then, the more I thinkabout it, look, are they happy?
(38:55):
Do they have a job?
Do they?
Are they doing what makes themhappy?
And then not hurting?
Yes, then who cares what?
I think right.
If they're happy with it, fine,right.
Pete Newsome (39:06):
Well, and if you're going to do it right,
what a great time to do it as ayoung person.
Ricky Baez (39:11):
Absolutely.
Ah, dude, yes, I tell everyyoung person that I see right
now is get the stuff out of yoursystem right now.
Right and I'm a big proponentEither join the military or
travel the world on your own.
After high school, Remember outwhat is it that you're
passionate about.
And then as long as I hate tosound hokey, but I'm going to
(39:32):
say it as long as what you doyou're happy with, you're
passionate about, it, drives you, the money's going to come
Absolutely.
Pete Newsome (39:42):
The money's going to come.
That's right.
Focus on that.
You and I are in completeagreement on that for sure.
So, ricky, I think we'vecovered this enough for today.
I encourage anyone listening.
If you're a parent of a youngperson, if you are a young
person trying to figure this out, follow us on Zengig.
Get on our website Zengig.
com.
This is what we're focused onnow.
This is a direction we're goingin.
(40:03):
We're really trying to helpyoung people figure this out,
and we're going to figure it outalong the way, too, because
we're posing some questions andexploring some things that
aren't necessarily going to bepopular with a lot of folks.
Some of the conversations I'vehad with colleges recently who I
want to partner with, theydon't like when we bring this
topic up.
Ricky Baez (40:23):
They're not a fan of it.
Pete Newsome (40:24):
One the why but we have to be true to what we
believe is real and we're goingto do that.
And so we're going to push thisand we're going to question it
and I'm going to do my best totake it to the high school level
too and see how much thismessage is really being shared
with young people who may stillbe told go get a job, go get a
(40:47):
degree so you can get a job.
We know that's datedinformation now and there's so
much more to a profession and acareer and the world at large.
So we're going to keep pushingthe envelope.
If you have questions for us,super easy questions at
zengeggcom.
We'd love to hear from you.
And, of course, if you couldrate and review the show five
stars, that would be awesome somore people can listen.
(41:08):
Anything else, ricky, or do we?
Ricky Baez (41:09):
cover it all.
No, no, I think we bid acertain animal to death.
Pete Newsome (41:14):
I think we did.
Ricky Baez (41:15):
With this one.
Pete Newsome (41:16):
So we're good.
We did that All right.
Well, happy New Year everyone.
Let's make it a great 2024.
Thank you, as always.
Ricky Baez (41:22):
Thank you, have a good one and yeah, I'm sticking
with Miami.
Still Go ahead.
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