November 20, 2023 • 47 mins
Struggling with nailing job interviews? Imagine feeling unheard, lost in a sea of applicants, just another resume in the pile. But what if I told you there's a way to flip the script and transform those interviews into powerful conversations? Meet Matthew Sorenson, who turns interviews into your chance to shine. Matthew's been on both sides of the hiring table and has proven expertise in teaching job candidates to leave an unforgettable mark...and he's shares that knowledge with Pete in today's episode.
🎧 LISTEN TO THE FULL EPISODE AND SHARE IT WITH YOUR COLLEAGUES
Tips for Job Interviews:
- Conversations, Not Interviews: Shift the dynamic by making it a conversation. Don't just answer questions, engage and offer insights. This sets you apart.
- Understand Their Needs: Companies hire to solve problems. Show how you're the solution. Emphasize what you can bring to address their challenges.
- Prepare Stories, Not Just Answers: Share anecdotes showcasing your skills in action. This makes you memorable and demonstrates practicality.
- Research and Engagement: Understand the company beyond surface-level facts. Offer suggestions or insights during the interview that display your genuine interest and understanding.
- Practice, Practice, Practice: Interviews are a skill. Practice answering common questions and work on turning it into a flowing conversation.
- Create a Connection: Strive to build rapport. People hire those they genuinely like and see as a good fit for the team.
- Be Solution-Oriented: Frame your responses as solutions to the interviewer's needs. Show you're there to contribute, not just to get a job.
- Focus on Unique Value: Highlight how you will stand out. What do you offer that others might not? Make it clear.
- Engage Post-Interview: If possible, continue engagement post-interview. Follow up with something relevant and valuable, reinforcing your interest and expertise.
Additional Resources:- How to Follow Up After a Job Interview – 6 Steps to Take
- How to Research a Company for a Job Interview
- 13 Virtual Interview Tips to Help You Land the Job
🧠WANT TO LEARN MORE? Be sure to subscribe and check out https://zengig.com/
👋 FOLLOW PETE NEWSOME ONLINE:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/petenewsome/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/petenewsome?lang=en
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@PeteNewsome
Blog Articles: https://www.4cornerresources.com/blog/
👋 FOLLOW MATTHEW SORENSEN ONLINE:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sorensenmatthew/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/jobinterviewpod
Website: https://www.jobinterviewexperience.com/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Finding Careersend podcast.
My guest today is MatthewSorensen.
Matthew is a former executiverecruiter search firm owner and
director of talent acquisition.
Today he's the founder ofCandidate Club Interview Prep
and host of the Job InterviewExperience podcast.
Matthew, how are you today?
Speaker 2 (00:23):
I'm doing great.
I'm excited to be here, Pete.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
Well, thank you so much for taking the time.
You've done a lot.
You've just looking at yourbackground.
You've added thousands ofresumes.
You've interviewed thousands ofcandidates.
You've really broke down indetail right how to hire or not.
So thank you for taking thetime to join me today.
You are an expert in this area,so I am really looking forward
(00:50):
to hearing about your historyand also what you're doing for
Candidates today, because Ithink you're doing something
that's really important outthere in the market right now
and much, much needed.
So let's just start with alittle background.
If you wouldn't mind, matthew,tell us about your professional
history.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
It's interesting.
You never know where yourcareer is going to take you.
I studied advertising incollege and my first job out of
school was selling ad space in alocal business journal.
It was printed it still is andweb, email advertising things
like that and a huge part ofthat job was networking.
I was going to multiplenetworking events every week.
(01:28):
One of those networking eventsI met an executive recruiter who
owned her own solo search firm,fast forward.
Maybe six months I got a callasking if I'd like to join her
firm, turning it into atwo-person firm from that point.
And she had an amazingreputation and taught me the old
school recruiting techniques,so like how to cold call into a
(01:49):
firm to find talent beforeLinkedIn existed.
Linkedin was just kind ofgearing up for recruiting use at
that time.
So I learned a lot there and Idon't know if you know, like the
Peter Lefkowitz School ofRecruiting things like that.
So a lot of that old way whichteaches you, I think, today how
to be different and how to takemore of that hard work approach
(02:12):
to recruiting.
So that was a great experience.
The firm located and I didn't,so I started my own firm and I
had a lot of ideas on how tocreate an experience for clients
and candidates, and for me,this was local to my area, so
you know how to build long-termrelationships and get a strong
relationship built with clients.
And what I'm really proud offrom there is how many firms
(02:35):
were repeat customers.
I didn't have that many clients.
I just had a lot of clientsthat were growing and happy with
my work and I think almosteveryone I placed maybe everyone
stayed at their job where Iplaced them for way longer than
the industry average.
I mean, I'm talking like morethan five years per person.
So every fit was a great fitand a lot of that's just great
(02:56):
luck on my part, I think.
But I placed I ended up placingquite a few leaders with one of
my clients that was growingquickly.
I think they grew tired ofpaying my fee.
I don't know if they liked meor not, but I think they got
tired of that fee and theyinvited me to come work for them
as their director of talentacquisition and I joined their
(03:18):
team and really dove deeper intorecruiting and interviewing and
hiring at a huge scale and thatcompany was acquired at the end
of 2019.
And I was out of a job, butI've been working on some things
for even before I started withthem.
So in January of 2020, Istarted candidate club interview
prep and in mid 2021, I startedthe job interview experience.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
That is a lot to do at the same time, and I want to
spend some time exploring eachof those areas.
But given that you've been onboth sides of the table, how
would you describe thedifference between corporate
recruiting and third partyrecruiting?
It sounds like you see value inboth, since you've done both,
but if you had to reallydescribe the difference, what
(04:06):
would that be?
Speaker 2 (04:09):
An executive recruiter is really trying to
serve, I think, two parties atonce, versus in-house is
typically serving one party atonce.
So an executive recruiter it'sa lot like a matchmaker, where
you have to find your clientsand so you're a salesperson and
you have to impress them or beat the right place at the right
time, and then you have to gofind talent.
(04:32):
And in my experience, you neverget the easy ones as an
executive recruiter, because ifit was easy, they'd just post it
online and they would havefound someone.
So you have to go out there,find the right talent.
I would say for me, maybe 15%of that was through networking
and knowing the right people.
The other 85% was probablyLinkedIn or something around
that.
And so then you have toconvince that person who is
(04:54):
gainfully employed to talk toyou, and then you have to talk
about the opportunity and see ifthat's the right fit, and so
that's a lot of conversations, alot of interviews.
I like to calm conversationsbecause when I spoke with people
, I didn't want them to feellike they're being interviewed.
I wanted them to feel likethey're being heard and you have
to understand them and, in yourown minds, to the best of your
(05:14):
knowledge, create a cultural fit.
And then you have to find acultural fit and then you go
back to your client and pitchthis person and then they have
to interview, talk to each other, and so that's where I think
the executive recruiter isdifferent in those ways, and
probably more In-house you'repassively receiving talents.
(05:35):
Instead of going out and findingthem, they're typically coming
to you through the job portaland so from there you're really
typically the recruiters tryingto find the best match for what
the manager has told themthey're looking for, and a good
hiring manager will not justhand over a job description and
say, hey, find this, we needthis person in a week.
A good manager will say, hey,this is what's worked well, this
(05:59):
is what fits well on the team.
These are some skills that Ireally want to focus on.
Maybe here's a couple extrasthat, if they happen to have
this new skill, new technology,whatever it is, this will stand
out to me.
And then that recruiter justhas a lot of work, a lot of
interviews Before that, lookingthrough a lot of resumes, trying
to see if people check theseboxes.
(06:19):
Some of that's been lost nowwith resume readers and
technology and things like that.
But at the end of the daythey're still sorting through
who they want to speak with andthen typically they're going to
have goals of time to hire,things like that.
So job seekers need tounderstand that they're
motivated, they want to hiresomeone, they want the right
person to come along, andquickly, because that's how
(06:41):
typically they're judged ondoing their job well or maybe
even receiving extra income orcommission for making placements
.
So they're motivated to.
They want you to impress them,and so they're talking to folks,
but then it's out of theirhands because they're typically
sending that person on to themanager of that department,
maybe someone else in therecruiting department.
(07:01):
So I hope that explains thedifference in my mind between
the two.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
It does.
There's pros and cons to beingin each role, and I've only been
on the third party side and ofcourse I, being in that position
, I would say, well, it's muchharder in our world right to be
the third party recruiter, butthe reality is when you're
internal and you're running atalent acquisition organization,
(07:27):
like you did, you have to workwith the managers that people in
my position can choose not towork with, and that's a big
thing to overcome.
So I don't envy anyone intalent acquisition who has to
work with those managers that wewould simply just walk away
from because they're toodifficult to work with.
You probably saw your share ofthat when you were in that role.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
I think executive recruiting is a bit more lonely.
In my experience, my clientswere great to work with, but
they want you to solve this.
They want to pay you to solvethis problem and not be in their
hair a lot.
So I would and I would try notto be so.
You know the other findingcandidates sorting through
things without talking to in mycase it was usually the owner or
president of a company, maybethe head of the department.
(08:10):
Who's my contact.
You can't really reach out tothem twice a week with questions
or how am I doing?
How is this type person what?
How does this work?
How does that work?
They really just want you toshut up, go find someone and
come back and they'll give youfeedback.
I'm not saying that thatdoesn't happen, but internally
there's a lot more discourse.
There's a lot more maybe aweekly department meetings.
(08:32):
They're refining what they want, maybe they're changing their
budget and you're more likely toget pretty constant
communication on what you'redoing and then quick feedback on
what they like or don't like.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
So I'm biased, of course, but I appreciate you
taking a couple of minutes toanswer those questions, because
a lot of candidates on themarket are hesitant to work with
an executive recruiter.
They don't trust the system,they don't trust the
organization and there's a lotof trepidation there.
It sounds like you see thevalue in it, even though you've
(09:08):
spent more time in talentacquisition.
If you were advising acandidate today, what guidance
would you give on working with astaffing company?
Speaker 2 (09:19):
If you can create a pitch for a staffing company and
connect the dots for them, ifyou can clearly state who you
are and what you do and how youdo it well, I think a staffing
firm will enjoy working with you.
You're connecting the dots forthem.
They might not have theposition open that you're
(09:40):
looking for.
It might be a timing issue, aclient issue, but a good
recruiter not to say mostexecutive recruiters they love
their relationships, even ifthey just keep it on the back
burner and wait till the time isright.
But instead of being the typeof person, an executive
recruiter sends a lot of coldemails, a lot of cold LinkedIn
(10:00):
messages, and they hope forpeople to reply.
So if you're active andengaging, you say, hey, here's
my email address, here's myresume, here's what I've done
based on what I know of the typeof clients you work with.
Here's how I can help themsucceed.
Here's the implementations I'vedone.
Here's the type of marketingstrategies I've done.
They've gotten ace in the holeand I've seen this.
(10:20):
The timing might be perfect.
They might say, hey, we're notdoing this, maybe we will next
quarter, whatever that is.
But you have a warmrelationship and you also have
an in-house recruiter.
Sometimes they get paidcommission on performing well
for making placements, buttypically their salary is gonna
be about this, prettyconsistently within a small
(10:43):
range For an executive recruiter.
They're very motivated to getyou placed and a lot of times
they'll even go out of their way, not to help you but to help
themselves by even going to passclients pitching you to.
People say, hey, I have a greatperson here wondering if you're
looking for talent like this, doyou have someone who's gonna be
working for you and it's intheir best interests to get you
(11:04):
hired?
They'll get paid well if theycan do so.
And to clear something up thatI've seen a little bit of lately
when an executive recruitergets hired 99% of the time maybe
hire they are never gettingpart of your salary.
Your salary doesn't go downfrom going through them.
The company is basing thepayout for the recruiter based
(11:26):
on your salary, but it's outsideof the company's pocket, not
your paycheck.
So I've seen that a little bit.
People have that question.
If it's ever not that way, I'drun the opposite direction.
But executive recruiters getpaid for their work from the
firm, not from you in any way.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
Well, that's a great point to make.
I'm glad you brought it upbecause it's the inverse is true
in most cases, where therecruiters getting a percentage
of the annual salary, they'remotivated for that salary to be
as high as it can possibly canbe and way more importantly than
that and I can tell you thatany recruiter I've ever met
(12:03):
would agree with this if not,they won't be in the industry
very long.
You want the candidate to behappy because that's what's
going to lead to them acceptingthe job offer and staying right.
So it's not about getting aninterview scheduled, getting an
offer, even getting it accepted.
It's about a candidate stayingin place to your point Earlier.
That's what gets you morebusiness right, that's what gets
(12:26):
you paid in the first place,but it leads to a happy client
and repeat business, and that'swhat it's all about.
And there's no successfulexecutive recruiter who makes a
living on one new client at atime.
You make a living, a good one,based on repeat business, and so
if you're a place in candidatesthat don't stay, that's just
not going to happen.
So it's a great point to make.
(12:47):
I haven't heard that sentiment,but you speak with a lot of
recruiters or, I'm sorrycandidates.
So that sounds like it's aconcern that's out there, at
least to some degree.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
I'm glad you said that about the motivation and
the motivation to present youwith a higher salary to
negotiate for you.
For an in-house recruiter, thebig focus is typically time to
hire.
So fill this quickly, becauseit costs money to have open
seats.
It also costs money to payrecruiters to recruit a position
, and so that motivation is tofill it quickly, which is good,
(13:18):
right, and candidates want toget hired quickly as well.
But if someone comes in at alower salary, that also really
eases that transaction for thecompany.
For an executive recruiter, theyalso want to work quickly, but
they're going for quality withthe firm.
The firm is going to pay forthat and when they present you
with the best salary, that makessense for both parties.
(13:41):
You win because you're probablygoing to get offered more.
There's also, I think, a littlebit more prestige coming
through with an executiverecruiter.
You've been vetted already.
Typically, what I did is Iwould send a PDF along with
every candidate, give them somebackground information, things
they've done that stand out,highlights, maybe a photo of
them and kind of a pitch forthem.
(14:02):
So you're getting that personin your back corner and, like
you said, they're motivated forthe reasons that you are also
motivated by which, to saybluntly, is income for both
parties.
Speaker 1 (14:13):
That's right.
What a shocker.
Compensation matters, right.
So what do you see right now?
Before we get into what, you'respending your time on the job
market.
You speak with a lot ofcandidates.
How would you describe it rightnow?
Is it improving?
Yet we're recording in themiddle of October 2023.
It's been a rough year for alot of folks, even layoffs in
(14:36):
the last week.
We've seen, with LinkedIn,bullhorn two big names in the
job space for sure.
How would you describe themarket right now?
Speaker 2 (14:49):
I've recreated in both high unemployment economies
and low unemployment economies.
As I know you have as well.
You've been through thosecycles and the feeling or word
I'd use for job seekers when aneconomy is booming which I don't
think it is right now, but inthe past job seekers are more
assertive and they feel thatcompanies are competing for them
(15:12):
and that the job seeker canname the terms.
And I've seen that and that'sbeen how it is right now, and I
get a lot of emails fromlisteners and they're struggling
to find employment.
I think the feeling isfrustrated.
It's not just frustratedbecause they're not hired.
(15:32):
Companies aren't hiring as much, so there's a lot more
competition for jobs and so thatoversaturates the job market
with talent and so each job isgetting a ton of applications.
So what does that do?
That diminishes the candidateexperience at the company that
they applied to.
And then candidates they wantto get to know the company.
(15:54):
They want to start arelationship, not just to get
their foot in the door the rightway, but they want to know
about the company they're goingto work with.
And what I'm seeing isrecruiters are just running
through a bunch of interviewquestions and then a quick
goodbye.
And with so many applicationsthat they're receiving and maybe
even recruiting departmentsbeing short staffed, there's
(16:17):
just not as much time to get toknow candidates, and so
candidates aren't really beingheard or seen as people which,
when it's, I'd say, a boomingeconomy, when there's a lot of
jobs and not enough people,companies are saying tell me
about you, laughing at all yourjokes and, for a higher level
(16:38):
positions, really courting thecandidates.
And that still happens, ofcourse.
But that interaction of, Ithink, being heard and your time
being respected as someone whocan help the company and so thus
being heard and spoken with,that's hurting people and then
they also feel they're notgetting noticed at all.
And that's just, I think,because there's so many
(16:58):
applicants for jobs, so,jobseeker, they know they're a
great fit for the role and theyknow they can help the company.
They know, oh, I can fix this,I can do this right, but then
they're applying and not gettinga response, or they're just
getting a rejection email aftera couple months and they don't
get any interviews.
And that's a big part of what Italk about is how to cut through
(17:20):
that noise and get noticed andconnect the dots for recruiters
and create a unique interactionto help them understand why
you're the fit for the role.
And my take on it now, in kindof this current environment, is
that you have to thatinteraction that you want, you
have to create that.
That's on you now and youcovered it in a podcast the
(17:42):
Career Generalist vs aSpecialist.
Showing them how you're thespecial candidate not special
because of who you are, but howyour special skills.
Connecting those dots for therecruiter right away that might
not even understand the role allthat well.
Saying here's my skills, here'sthree things I can do to help
your company, here's why I thinkthe manager will.
(18:04):
Here's a skill of mine I thinkthe manager will be excited
about, so on and so forth.
So flipping the script a littlebit and making that connection
for the recruiter, doing part oftheir job for them, which is
connecting the dots andrealizing that you're the person
they should keep talking to.
Speaker 1 (18:18):
I love that, and I think that's something that
candidates probably don'trealize with enough frequency is
that a lot of times therecruiter is working on a role
that they don't fully understand, and every situation is unique.
Some recruiters are very deepin the specialty area that
they're recruiting for.
Others it really is just theopposite, where they just know
(18:42):
very little about the role thatthey're recruiting for.
So you said, connect the dotsit's a perfect way to phrase it.
Make it easy for the recruitersto match your skills and
background and what you can doto the job description.
And it is a frustrating timefor candidates.
We know that they need help,and I put a post up for an
(19:05):
internal recruiter role not toolong ago and it received
hundreds of applicants within afew hours, and by the time I
turned the job off we hadreceived well over 1,000 and
close to 2,000 applicants.
And just the time to look atthose applicants, to glance at
them, you do the math on that.
(19:25):
It is unfavorable to thecandidates, to say the least,
and I don't have a good solutionto it.
I have some, but I'm not goingto try to spend time on those
today because it involveschanging the system that we have
in place.
So I think the best thing wecan do now and you're doing it,
so I want to shift our focus totalking about what you're doing
(19:47):
to help is to allow thecandidates who are on the market
right now job seekers to thrivein the situation that we're in,
for better or worse and in manyways it is worse than it was
and when you started recruitingwhen I started recruiting right
now, the effort to apply is solow.
The effort to post a job is solow.
(20:09):
It leads to these really bignumbers, in my opinion.
Now I start to date myself whenI go too far down that road, so
we won't do that.
But you started podcastingbecause you saw a need to
provide better advice than whatyou were seeing.
So talk about that.
What made you really get intopodcasting in the first place?
Speaker 2 (20:27):
I never, ever thought I would have a podcast.
I knew that I had a fresh,modern take on job interviews
and getting hired.
A lot of HR professionalsaren't especially helpful in
sharing their knowledge andthey've been taught not to
interact with the candidates inthat way.
Right, you can't give feedbackafter a job interview.
You really shouldn't.
(20:48):
Right, it puts the company atrisk.
Or the other side are socialmedia personalities that are
rereading chat, gpt and theydon't have any experience of
their own.
So I thought I could bring in alot of experience that I have
and just share it with jobseekers.
And I've done quite a bit ofinterview coaching, pete and,
(21:10):
I'll say humbly, with a veryhigh success rate for people I
work with.
So I started the podcast justto share everything I know on
helping people to get hired, andin a format that everyone in
the world would have access toat their own pace and for free.
So the one-on-one interviewcoaching is expensive and I
share my tips on doing thoseright how to stand out, how to
(21:34):
position yourself and a lot ofjust what not to do and then
what to do from a perspective ofsomeone who's seen so many
interviews that there's littlethings you can do just to break
the pattern a little bit, andthe feedback has been huge.
People listen to the podcast andthey do the hard work of
applying what they've learnedand they write in and say that
(21:56):
they've gotten hired.
And for me that's the bigreward of it.
I get emotional every time Iread those because I know people
struggle and it's an incrediblystressful time in a career to
have rent and car payments andchildcare and not know when
you're going to get a job andright now I think it feels a
little gloomy for people,especially in this market.
(22:17):
So for me it's being able toshare what I know with people,
and I don't like the sound of myown voice.
I've never had a desire to bekind of a public type speaker or
figure, but it has made animpact.
I really hope it has andcontinues to do so.
And so I just put out a coupleepisodes and thought, wow, I
(22:38):
have a lot more I could shareand this seems to be helping
folks.
So I just kept doing it andhere we are today.
Speaker 1 (22:44):
It's great that you're doing it, and I would say
you're unnatural, because whenI first heard you on air before
we met, I thought oh man, I'msuch, I felt like such a hack
because you sound, you have avoice made for it and so, even
though you didn't see thatyourself doing it, it's a
phenomenal podcast.
(23:05):
It is helping a lot of people.
So talk a little bit more aboutwhat those who would listen can
get out of it.
If you would, matthew, you'rehelping a lot of folks who
should listen to the podcast.
Speaker 2 (23:20):
So I would.
Typically, I think I have twotypes of listeners.
One are they're newer in theircareers and they know that this
whole thing is a big mystery andthey know they're not good at
it and so they want to learnabout it.
They want to get insight.
The other type of listenerthey're further along in their
career and maybe they've gottento really good places in their
(23:42):
career, but either they've losta job or they'd want to pursue
something way bigger and better.
But they have an interview infive or 10 years and it's just a
learned skill and so they'retuning into, freshen up.
They've probably experienced alot of this stuff, but they want
.
They know that things willclick again once they start
learning about them.
So in each episode I covertopics like, we'll say, phone
(24:05):
interviews, the real reasonbehind interview questions,
because a lot of times it's notthe question you're being asked.
There's something else behindit.
So, for example, if you'reinterviewing with a recruiter
and they say what do you knowabout this company?
Well, they work there.
They know about the company.
So they're not asking you togain knowledge on the place they
work.
So it's actually kind of asilly question.
(24:27):
Really, what they're asking isdo you care enough to invest
your time before thisconversation to learn what we're
doing?
Do you understand what we'redoing?
So questions like that need tobe dug into A question like tell
me about your last boss.
They don't care about your lastboss.
They're never gonna meet yourlast boss.
How do you react to that?
(24:48):
Do you?
Does it turn into a therapysession where you start going
through the bad experienceyou've had, which most people
have, and they should talk aboutthat, but not during the
interview, because it shows,maybe, how you'll act with bad
experiences from coworkers atthis new workplace.
Obviously, I'm starting to gointo my own episode here.
(25:10):
So, yeah, the strengths andweaknesses question.
I talk about how to connect thedots between your job
description, your resume and thejob description for a job, how
to connect those dots and pullthat into your interview so you
make it easy for the recruiter.
Every week I have a careerindustry expert on the podcast
and they come in and share theirknowledge, which goes way
(25:32):
beyond what I know.
I just had a guy from Floridawith a recruiting firm come on.
It's gonna be one of the bestepisodes we ever have.
So that kind of summarizes whatI talk about Try and cover some
relevant topics, doing a softskills course right now.
So just empower job interviewswith stuff that's just outside
of what they think about,because they're busy with their
(25:53):
own skillset.
Speaker 1 (25:55):
Why are we so bad at interviewing?
I mean, if you had to sum it up, we know it's a need.
Zinnig, as you already know, Ifounded with my team because we
knew that there was so much helpneeded in different areas from,
in particular to me near anddear to my heart as a father of
four kids aged 15 to 23, thatyoung people need help right
(26:21):
With career advice and guidance.
The system is not great forthem either on knowing how to
choose a career path, and wesend kids off to college with no
great idea of why.
But that's also for a differentepisode.
But collectively we're bad atinterviewing.
Why is that?
Speaker 2 (26:42):
I think the biggest thing is not understanding why
the company is hiring and notunderstanding that the company
is looking for a solution to aproblem, and if you present
yourself that way, then you'remuch more likely to be hired.
Unfortunately, the situationjob seekers are in they need a
(27:06):
job, typically for the incomeand the stability, and they get
focused in on that and duringtheir interview they talk about
and it's good to talk aboutyourself during your interview,
but their focus is on the joband how this job will help them
and the reasons they wanna workfor the company, the reasons
they try and impress the company, all actually reflect on what
(27:28):
their needs are and not thecompany's needs.
So I think and I could gofurther into that, but I'll
table that but it'smisunderstanding that, which
completely changes the approachof the conversation.
The other side of this jobseekers struggle because job
interviews themselves are askill that takes practice and
understanding and your job isapplying the skill that you have
(27:52):
.
So, say, software developmentor marketing, that's your skill
set.
Your skill set isn't jobinterviews.
My skill set is job interviewsbut not being in them.
So even for me, I haven't beenin many job interviews at all as
interview-y.
So, pete, you and I know a lotabout interviews because we've
processed so many that have gonewell and that have failed, so
(28:16):
we can share that knowledge.
But job seekers have beenfocused on their own skills and
not this outside experience.
That happens once every coupleof years and so it's just
practice and experience and thathelps shake the nerves.
The other part is knowing how torepresent yourself as a
candidate, and most people gointo interviews and they feel
like interrogations.
They answer questions aboutthemselves and move on.
(28:39):
Really, they go in and kind ofgo a little bit deeper than
their resume and hope for a callback, and so what I talk about
is flipping the script andapproaching employers as a
solution, like I said earlier,instead of a job candidate.
So, instead of here's my resumeand background, it's here's
(29:00):
what I noticed about your mostrecent marketing campaign and
three ideas on how to improveits efficacy.
So things like that.
Of course, job seekers don'tthink about that, because
they're not doing this 40 hoursa week, they're doing it once or
twice a year at most.
That's where things like Zengigcome in and hope and power
(29:22):
folks and, I think, give them alot more confidence.
Is there able to getperspective from people who
really can tell you how to do itthe right way, or just tell you
how to put your best footforward and represent yourself
as you wanna be seen, as opposedto how the nervous version of
you goes in and kind of losesfocus on what's important to the
employer.
Speaker 1 (29:41):
It's a lot of pressure in an area where you
don't have expertise to your, asyou just said, a great employee
.
It's a good thing that anemployee, generally speaking,
hasn't had to interview a lot,right Longevity at their job or
being tapped for newopportunities, like what
happened to you.
(30:02):
You didn't have to interviewfor that job, they found you.
That happens a lot, but yet ittends to be a negative.
When you have to perform on astage you're not used to
performing on, it almost worksagainst you to be successful in
a terrible you know, ironictwist.
So we have the job interviewexperience podcast providing a
(30:27):
lot of information at a highlevel.
If you need to go deeper, right, talk about your coaching a
little bit.
What is Candidate Club?
Speaker 2 (30:38):
So Candidate Club is interactive interview training.
So if a job seeker feels out ofpractice for job interviews, I
built out something so it has.
You know, phone interviewtraining, video chat, in-person
interview training, and so usersare presented with an interview
question, say in thesetrainings, and they see multiple
responses.
And then, after every singleinterview question, there is a
(31:01):
video and text digging into thereal reason behind the interview
question common mistakes thatpeople make, things to do, right
, things to avoid and more thanthat, just depending on the
question, things like thestrengths and weaknesses
question.
I really break down into longerlearning kind of sessions, and
(31:22):
when I say that I mean maybeit's a five minute video.
Some of these are just 30seconds of a video, just walking
through.
Here's what to look out for,here's what this question really
means and here's how you canformulate your own response.
Also, of course, is on how towrite a short, effective cover
letter, which is one of myfavorite topics.
How to make it about theemployer, not you, and make it
(31:42):
really short so it gets noticed.
Little things like adding threebullet points one, two, three
just to break up your coverletter will make it stand way
out and give people three actionitems, whether they're ideas,
unique things to highlight.
But back to Candidate Club.
Really, the idea is to make itimmersive and engaging, and I'll
(32:04):
liken it to say you wanna play,learn how to play guitar?
You can watch videos online onhow to play guitar.
Guitar, you can read about howto play guitar, but once you
pick it up and interact with ita little bit, that's when things
start to click a little bitmore, and so that's why I built
the training to be the way it isthat you're actively having to
(32:25):
engage with it instead ofpassively learning about this
stuff, and I think both wayswork well.
I just think this is a way todig a little bit deeper.
Speaker 1 (32:34):
Yeah, and in this competitive market, you need to
take advantage of resources thatexist to give yourself the best
opportunity.
We I don't say we laugh aboutit, but I roll my eyes every
time someone gets upset, forexample, that there's a bad
resume.
Right, this candidate isn'tgood because they have a bad
resume.
(32:54):
Well, people aren't used towriting resumes.
It's okay.
You're not hiring them becausethey're going to be a good
resume writer.
Similarly, you don't hiresomeone because they interview
well, but they have to getthrough it because it's
competitive.
They're up against someone elseand you want to make that
(33:14):
decision as easy as possible forthe hiring manager and, as you,
you can't see what mistakesyou're making.
You is a candidate.
You can't look at your ownactions.
I mean, no one intends to havea bad resume, right?
No one intends to interviewpoorly, but you need outside
expertise when you're not usedto doing it, and I think it's
(33:40):
probably something that peopletake for granted way too much
that let me just show up andinterview.
I know my stuff, but one of thethings we have on ZendGig, for
example, is a list of quotecommon interview questions,
right?
Well, there's over 70 of themthat we have that are commonly
used, and just think about that.
Who's prepared for those?
(34:01):
And no one.
I won't say no one.
Very few people are going totake the time, or even have the
time, if they were willing totake it, to do their own
research.
So you need outside help.
Just like I keep using a resumeanalogy.
One of our recruiters can lookat a resume, clean it up very
quickly, turn it around, as I'msure you've had to do in your
past right, look at a resume andrealize what the mistakes are.
(34:23):
They jump off the page and Isuspect when you coach someone
for interviewing, the same thingis true.
You see really obvious thingsthat the person who's working
with you probably has no ideathey're even doing wrong.
Speaker 2 (34:39):
What's interesting about what you said as far as a
bad resume or a bad interview isthat I remember over a decade
ago I was placing Salesforceengineers for actually two
different clients probably alittle over a decade ago and
(34:59):
these folks could have come inand put their pet bird in a cage
on the interview table withthese clients and talk to the
bird the whole time and theystill would have gotten hired
because people wanted Salesforceengineers that bad and they
would have paid a lot for them.
And to kind of get into thephilosophical side of interviews
(35:20):
, of course you wanna get hiredand of course you wanna do a
really good job.
You wanna make good use of thecompany's time and answer the
questions Well, give theinformation they need.
If a company doesn't like youbecause you had, you have great
skills but you had a badinterview, just because you're
nervous, you might not wannawork there.
If they can see through yournervousness and maybe some
(35:44):
pauses, maybe, whatever,whatever those small things
might be.
Maybe your resume is black andwhite and kind of ugly, but if
you have great skills and acompany appreciates you for that
, if you come in and you'renervous at your interview, you
get along well with everybodyand you have the right skills, I
think those are the companiesthat have the right priorities
(36:04):
If they're hiring a PRspokesperson.
Of course you have to be superpolished and I think you should
be as polished as possible.
But some of these companies thatare so incredibly picky I just
heard a story about someone whohad a Zoom interview at the
beginning of the pandemic andit's so hard to read each other,
especially with pauses andthings like that and they
(36:25):
interrupted the interviewer whohad kind of stopped a question
and then how you ask twoquestions in the same question
and they interrupted and theywere told by the company that
they didn't get hired becausethey interrupted during their
interview.
And they're like you neverinterrupt the interviewer and
obviously interrupting's bad andit's even probably for you,
pete, I know for me when Iinterview people on the podcast
(36:45):
it's really hard to know whenthe point's been finished and
then giving that pause.
You don't want the pause to betoo long, but in a world where
it's changing and we're on Zoomall of a sudden and doing
interviews, you don't wanna workfor that company that actually
even tells you you didn't gethired because you interrupted
Like they're so special that youcould never do that, and
(37:08):
probably if you did that in ameeting as well, you would be in
trouble.
And so, digging into that andlooking into that a little bit
more, you want a great resume,you wanna present yourself well,
you wanna know how to answerthese questions, but at the end
of the day, if they don't likeyou and their take on, that is
perfection, which, by the way,they aren't either.
Maybe you have a sigh of reliefthat you didn't get hired there
(37:30):
for anyone that's listening,because those companies might
not treat you as well ascompanies who look at you for
who you are and like you for theimperfect, nervous interviewer
that you are, because you havethe skills that can help them
move forward, and that's whatthey're focused on.
Speaker 1 (37:44):
And there's been so many ridiculous things that I've
heard back from post interviewcomments that the unrealistic
expectations that were placedupon the candidate.
Just as a quick example, we hada client I shouldn't say this
(38:07):
publicly, but what the heck?
I'm already down the road whorefused to hire any candidate
who couldn't say whatpublications industry
publications they regularly read, and it didn't matter how good
they were and or anything else.
That was there one reason torule people out and it was a
(38:27):
very frustrating thing tocontend with as a recruiter and
you could imagine we startedpreparing candidates accordingly
, right For that scenario.
But I think the point you justalluded to is a really important
one for job seekers.
Is it the person doing theinterview?
Conducting the interview moreoften than not isn't necessarily
(38:48):
proficient at it either.
They don't have expertise inthat.
So it's sort of like the blindleading the blind in many cases,
and so a candidate can'tcontrol that.
They have to be able to controltheir own preparation, just
knowing that there's gonna besome unrealistic and goofy
things thrown their way on aregular basis.
Speaker 2 (39:09):
Couldn't agree more.
Speaker 1 (39:11):
If you had to summarize the top thing that
candidates do hurdle to overcome, what would be the top hurdle
that candidates need to overcomein interviews?
Is there a recurring theme thatyou see?
Speaker 2 (39:28):
Having a conversation instead of an interview.
Turning your interview into aconversation is really, really
difficult to do, but if you cando that, and instead of
answering questions aboutyourself, the best interviews
I've ever had with people yeah,I've been sitting in a room,
(39:48):
especially when working as adirector of talent acquisition.
You're talking to someone andthey're not always, like I said
earlier, they're not always themost polished and perfect, but
when they go from answeringquestions about themselves to,
all of a sudden, they're givingtheir feedback on what worked on
a new initiative.
They're saying what softwaresaved their company money that
(40:10):
you didn't know about.
They're telling you a salesstrategy that your team hasn't
thought of, or maybe you'vethought of but you didn't know
if it worked and they talk abouthow it works.
I've been in those rooms anumber of times where you're in
there with maybe the hiringmanager, maybe the owner of the
company.
It's a final interview and youkind of accidentally glance each
other.
You just know we're gonna makethis person an offer and we're
gonna make the offer work forthem.
(40:30):
We're gonna hire this personand, whether you are really
early in your career or you aremore experienced, being able and
trying as much as you can toturn that interview from an
interview into a conversation,and there's a lot of things you
have to be careful of here andthere's more to dig into.
I'm sure Zengig talks aboutthis how to?
(40:52):
Obviously you wanna positionyourself well.
You don't wanna criticize whatthey're doing, you don't wanna
throw someone under the buswho's in the room, who maybe
came up with an initiative thatyou're critiquing, but we can
come in and start helping themduring your interview.
The hurdle of going frominterviewer to I don't like the
word consultant but moresolution if you can come in and
(41:13):
be a solution even if you'reright out of college, and you
can come in and say I've beenresearching this area a lot and
I found these two new tools thatI think any company should know
about and actually print out.
I printed off right here onthis PDF some options here, some
pricing here and the reach thatthis will get you on your next
(41:35):
advertising campaign if youwould use this.
All of a sudden, you're helpingthem and if they like what
you're saying, they're gonnawant you to keep helping them.
And you're not an applicant,you're a solution and shifting
your mind from that, from beinga scared job seeker to someone
who can help the company and youcan show the company that they
need your help.
That's a big hurdle and I thinkthat's probably something that
(41:58):
a lot of listeners haven't quitethought of that way.
But if you can get your mindpast that and start maybe
looking back to past interviewsor you can apply this to your
cover letter as well that'ssomeone who really gets noticed
by companies and when you do iton your cover letter like I said
, those three bullet points Imentioned earlier when you can
do that and have three ideas forthem, three solutions, three
(42:20):
new, if you're a salespersonthree new markets you can enter
and mentioning hey, I haveRolodex in this area.
Here's three things, here's atimeline I think we can have.
Instead of making your coverletter about yourself doing that
, that cover letter of thethousands that you mentioned
that you probably get, that juststands out immediately.
It just looks different.
And during the interview you'rethat person that after the
(42:41):
interview they're not justtalking about you, they're
saying, hey, look up that onesoftware product that person
talked about.
That can save us a bunch oftime on our editing or whatever
it is.
Get over that hurdle and you'regonna impress companies and
they're gonna wanna keep talkingto you and hopefully they're
gonna wanna hire you.
Speaker 1 (42:59):
That alone is worth its weight in gold.
That advice you just gave isthe most powerful, impactful
thing that I think any candidatewho's interviewing could hear.
And if that's a sample of whatyou get for someone working with
you, matthew, then case closedwhether anyone should consider
taking advantage of what youhave to offer.
(43:20):
Because I can tell you that oneof the things that I've focused
on so much over the years is,if I'm good at my job as a
staffing provider, can I turnthe maybes into a yes right?
Can I help those candidates whomay have not gotten the job get
over the finish line?
And if a candidate is willingto do even a partial effort of
(43:46):
what you just said, the fulleffort is almost going to be a
slam dunk every time.
I would be shocked if someonedoesn't get hired.
Who does that, if they're atall qualified?
But that kind of effort willmake all the difference in the
world.
I'm really glad you said thatand I appreciate you taking the
time to make that importantpoint, because I would say and
maybe I'll ask you before Iwon't say it how many candidates
(44:09):
you think put forth that levelof effort going in without you
telling them it's a good thingto do.
What percentage?
Speaker 2 (44:17):
Maybe one out of a couple hundred, and I think for
some people that's theirpersonality trait and I think
you'll see that a lot more andhappen naturally with
salespeople who a goodsalesperson sell solutions, so
they're doing that during theirinterview.
But for most other folks it justyou just don't think that way.
I never would have thought thatway before moving into the
(44:41):
recruiting and hiring industry.
Very few people do that, and sothat's just another way to make
it stand out, even if it's justlike who was that college kid
who was pitching us on this newtool to do this on our computers
that said they saved their lastcompany $100,000 a year when
they did it and so they pay forthemselves?
(45:02):
Who was that person?
Well, let's talk to them again,if you can do that and again
approach it delicately,understand who you're talking to
, your audience is and whatthey've done to have these
things in place right, and soI'd say positive solutions, not
I wouldn't critique or givenegative feedback on anything
(45:23):
they've done unless you reallywanna put yourself out there.
Very few people do that and itgives me it gives me caution.
Yeah, it gives them a glimpse ofyour motivation, what you're
capable of and, hopefully, howyou'll perform as a candidate,
what you'll continue to do andnot just like you didn't stop at
being a job candidate.
You became a solution.
(45:44):
Once you're employed, you won'tstop at just your job title.
You'll be a researcher, you'llbe innovative, you'll go outside
of your own kind of purview tofind things that can help this
company and you have.
As a job seeker, you bettercommit to continuing to perform
that way.
And so it is.
(46:04):
This isn't an easy trick I'moffering here.
You gotta put in the workbefore you write your cover
letter.
You have to put in the workbefore you have your interview.
You gotta keep doing thatduring your job once you're
hired.
But if you do, your career'sgonna go a heck of a lot more
places than you ever thought itwould if you can incorporate
this not just into your jobsearch but into your career in
(46:25):
general.
Speaker 1 (46:27):
Could not agree more, and so, if you're a motivated
candidate, this is the kind ofadvice you need, and you need to
follow up on it and actually dowhat's being recommended.
So, matthew, I think that's agreat place to end.
It's such a valuable piece ofinformation.
We're not going to top it rightnow.
I'm sure you probably can, butyou're going to have to check
(46:47):
out Matthew on your own.
If you wanna hear more and Ihighly recommend that you do so
for the podcast, the jobinterview experience, it's on
all major channels.
You can find it for sure.
We'll link to it in our shownotes.
And for more hands-on, specificcoaching and help from Matthew,
go to what's your website thatthey need to go to for Candidate
Club.
Speaker 2 (47:07):
So CandidateClubcom is just the interview training,
if it makes it easier for folks.
If you go toJobInterviewExperiencecom you
will find the podcasts and linksto Candidate Club.
To just check out what thatlooks like.
Speaker 1 (47:21):
Perfect, and we'll put those links in the show
notes.
Matthew, thank you so much forbeing generous with your time
and sharing your informationtoday.
I really appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (47:28):
Love speaking with you, Pete.
Thanks for having me All right,thanks for listening.
Speaker 1 (47:31):
We'll talk to everyone soon Å‘.
You're listening to the Finding Careersend podcast.
My guest today is MatthewSorensen.
Matthew is a former executiverecruiter search firm owner and
director of talent acquisition.
Today he's the founder ofCandidate Club Interview Prep
and host of the Job InterviewExperience podcast.
Matthew, how are you today?
Speaker 2 (00:23):
I'm doing great.
I'm excited to be here, Pete.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
Well, thank you so much for taking the time.
You've done a lot.
You've just looking at yourbackground.
You've added thousands ofresumes.
You've interviewed thousands ofcandidates.
You've really broke down indetail right how to hire or not.
So thank you for taking thetime to join me today.
You are an expert in this area,so I am really looking forward
(00:50):
to hearing about your historyand also what you're doing for
Candidates today, because Ithink you're doing something
that's really important outthere in the market right now
and much, much needed.
So let's just start with alittle background.
If you wouldn't mind, matthew,tell us about your professional
history.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
It's interesting.
You never know where yourcareer is going to take you.
I studied advertising incollege and my first job out of
school was selling ad space in alocal business journal.
It was printed it still is andweb, email advertising things
like that and a huge part ofthat job was networking.
I was going to multiplenetworking events every week.
(01:28):
One of those networking eventsI met an executive recruiter who
owned her own solo search firm,fast forward.
Maybe six months I got a callasking if I'd like to join her
firm, turning it into atwo-person firm from that point.
And she had an amazingreputation and taught me the old
school recruiting techniques,so like how to cold call into a
(01:49):
firm to find talent beforeLinkedIn existed.
Linkedin was just kind ofgearing up for recruiting use at
that time.
So I learned a lot there and Idon't know if you know, like the
Peter Lefkowitz School ofRecruiting things like that.
So a lot of that old way whichteaches you, I think, today how
to be different and how to takemore of that hard work approach
(02:12):
to recruiting.
So that was a great experience.
The firm located and I didn't,so I started my own firm and I
had a lot of ideas on how tocreate an experience for clients
and candidates, and for me,this was local to my area, so
you know how to build long-termrelationships and get a strong
relationship built with clients.
And what I'm really proud offrom there is how many firms
(02:35):
were repeat customers.
I didn't have that many clients.
I just had a lot of clientsthat were growing and happy with
my work and I think almosteveryone I placed maybe everyone
stayed at their job where Iplaced them for way longer than
the industry average.
I mean, I'm talking like morethan five years per person.
So every fit was a great fitand a lot of that's just great
(02:56):
luck on my part, I think.
But I placed I ended up placingquite a few leaders with one of
my clients that was growingquickly.
I think they grew tired ofpaying my fee.
I don't know if they liked meor not, but I think they got
tired of that fee and theyinvited me to come work for them
as their director of talentacquisition and I joined their
(03:18):
team and really dove deeper intorecruiting and interviewing and
hiring at a huge scale and thatcompany was acquired at the end
of 2019.
And I was out of a job, butI've been working on some things
for even before I started withthem.
So in January of 2020, Istarted candidate club interview
prep and in mid 2021, I startedthe job interview experience.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
That is a lot to do at the same time, and I want to
spend some time exploring eachof those areas.
But given that you've been onboth sides of the table, how
would you describe thedifference between corporate
recruiting and third partyrecruiting?
It sounds like you see value inboth, since you've done both,
but if you had to reallydescribe the difference, what
(04:06):
would that be?
Speaker 2 (04:09):
An executive recruiter is really trying to
serve, I think, two parties atonce, versus in-house is
typically serving one party atonce.
So an executive recruiter it'sa lot like a matchmaker, where
you have to find your clientsand so you're a salesperson and
you have to impress them or beat the right place at the right
time, and then you have to gofind talent.
(04:32):
And in my experience, you neverget the easy ones as an
executive recruiter, because ifit was easy, they'd just post it
online and they would havefound someone.
So you have to go out there,find the right talent.
I would say for me, maybe 15%of that was through networking
and knowing the right people.
The other 85% was probablyLinkedIn or something around
that.
And so then you have toconvince that person who is
(04:54):
gainfully employed to talk toyou, and then you have to talk
about the opportunity and see ifthat's the right fit, and so
that's a lot of conversations, alot of interviews.
I like to calm conversationsbecause when I spoke with people
, I didn't want them to feellike they're being interviewed.
I wanted them to feel likethey're being heard and you have
to understand them and, in yourown minds, to the best of your
(05:14):
knowledge, create a cultural fit.
And then you have to find acultural fit and then you go
back to your client and pitchthis person and then they have
to interview, talk to each other, and so that's where I think
the executive recruiter isdifferent in those ways, and
probably more In-house you'repassively receiving talents.
(05:35):
Instead of going out and findingthem, they're typically coming
to you through the job portaland so from there you're really
typically the recruiters tryingto find the best match for what
the manager has told themthey're looking for, and a good
hiring manager will not justhand over a job description and
say, hey, find this, we needthis person in a week.
A good manager will say, hey,this is what's worked well, this
(05:59):
is what fits well on the team.
These are some skills that Ireally want to focus on.
Maybe here's a couple extrasthat, if they happen to have
this new skill, new technology,whatever it is, this will stand
out to me.
And then that recruiter justhas a lot of work, a lot of
interviews Before that, lookingthrough a lot of resumes, trying
to see if people check theseboxes.
(06:19):
Some of that's been lost nowwith resume readers and
technology and things like that.
But at the end of the daythey're still sorting through
who they want to speak with andthen typically they're going to
have goals of time to hire,things like that.
So job seekers need tounderstand that they're
motivated, they want to hiresomeone, they want the right
person to come along, andquickly, because that's how
(06:41):
typically they're judged ondoing their job well or maybe
even receiving extra income orcommission for making placements
.
So they're motivated to.
They want you to impress them,and so they're talking to folks,
but then it's out of theirhands because they're typically
sending that person on to themanager of that department,
maybe someone else in therecruiting department.
(07:01):
So I hope that explains thedifference in my mind between
the two.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
It does.
There's pros and cons to beingin each role, and I've only been
on the third party side and ofcourse I, being in that position
, I would say, well, it's muchharder in our world right to be
the third party recruiter, butthe reality is when you're
internal and you're running atalent acquisition organization,
(07:27):
like you did, you have to workwith the managers that people in
my position can choose not towork with, and that's a big
thing to overcome.
So I don't envy anyone intalent acquisition who has to
work with those managers that wewould simply just walk away
from because they're toodifficult to work with.
You probably saw your share ofthat when you were in that role.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
I think executive recruiting is a bit more lonely.
In my experience, my clientswere great to work with, but
they want you to solve this.
They want to pay you to solvethis problem and not be in their
hair a lot.
So I would and I would try notto be so.
You know the other findingcandidates sorting through
things without talking to in mycase it was usually the owner or
president of a company, maybethe head of the department.
(08:10):
Who's my contact.
You can't really reach out tothem twice a week with questions
or how am I doing?
How is this type person what?
How does this work?
How does that work?
They really just want you toshut up, go find someone and
come back and they'll give youfeedback.
I'm not saying that thatdoesn't happen, but internally
there's a lot more discourse.
There's a lot more maybe aweekly department meetings.
(08:32):
They're refining what they want, maybe they're changing their
budget and you're more likely toget pretty constant
communication on what you'redoing and then quick feedback on
what they like or don't like.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
So I'm biased, of course, but I appreciate you
taking a couple of minutes toanswer those questions, because
a lot of candidates on themarket are hesitant to work with
an executive recruiter.
They don't trust the system,they don't trust the
organization and there's a lotof trepidation there.
It sounds like you see thevalue in it, even though you've
(09:08):
spent more time in talentacquisition.
If you were advising acandidate today, what guidance
would you give on working with astaffing company?
Speaker 2 (09:19):
If you can create a pitch for a staffing company and
connect the dots for them, ifyou can clearly state who you
are and what you do and how youdo it well, I think a staffing
firm will enjoy working with you.
You're connecting the dots forthem.
They might not have theposition open that you're
(09:40):
looking for.
It might be a timing issue, aclient issue, but a good
recruiter not to say mostexecutive recruiters they love
their relationships, even ifthey just keep it on the back
burner and wait till the time isright.
But instead of being the typeof person, an executive
recruiter sends a lot of coldemails, a lot of cold LinkedIn
(10:00):
messages, and they hope forpeople to reply.
So if you're active andengaging, you say, hey, here's
my email address, here's myresume, here's what I've done
based on what I know of the typeof clients you work with.
Here's how I can help themsucceed.
Here's the implementations I'vedone.
Here's the type of marketingstrategies I've done.
They've gotten ace in the holeand I've seen this.
(10:20):
The timing might be perfect.
They might say, hey, we're notdoing this, maybe we will next
quarter, whatever that is.
But you have a warmrelationship and you also have
an in-house recruiter.
Sometimes they get paidcommission on performing well
for making placements, buttypically their salary is gonna
be about this, prettyconsistently within a small
(10:43):
range For an executive recruiter.
They're very motivated to getyou placed and a lot of times
they'll even go out of their way, not to help you but to help
themselves by even going to passclients pitching you to.
People say, hey, I have a greatperson here wondering if you're
looking for talent like this, doyou have someone who's gonna be
working for you and it's intheir best interests to get you
(11:04):
hired?
They'll get paid well if theycan do so.
And to clear something up thatI've seen a little bit of lately
when an executive recruitergets hired 99% of the time maybe
hire they are never gettingpart of your salary.
Your salary doesn't go downfrom going through them.
The company is basing thepayout for the recruiter based
(11:26):
on your salary, but it's outsideof the company's pocket, not
your paycheck.
So I've seen that a little bit.
People have that question.
If it's ever not that way, I'drun the opposite direction.
But executive recruiters getpaid for their work from the
firm, not from you in any way.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
Well, that's a great point to make.
I'm glad you brought it upbecause it's the inverse is true
in most cases, where therecruiters getting a percentage
of the annual salary, they'remotivated for that salary to be
as high as it can possibly canbe and way more importantly than
that and I can tell you thatany recruiter I've ever met
(12:03):
would agree with this if not,they won't be in the industry
very long.
You want the candidate to behappy because that's what's
going to lead to them acceptingthe job offer and staying right.
So it's not about getting aninterview scheduled, getting an
offer, even getting it accepted.
It's about a candidate stayingin place to your point Earlier.
That's what gets you morebusiness right, that's what gets
(12:26):
you paid in the first place,but it leads to a happy client
and repeat business, and that'swhat it's all about.
And there's no successfulexecutive recruiter who makes a
living on one new client at atime.
You make a living, a good one,based on repeat business, and so
if you're a place in candidatesthat don't stay, that's just
not going to happen.
So it's a great point to make.
(12:47):
I haven't heard that sentiment,but you speak with a lot of
recruiters or, I'm sorrycandidates.
So that sounds like it's aconcern that's out there, at
least to some degree.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
I'm glad you said that about the motivation and
the motivation to present youwith a higher salary to
negotiate for you.
For an in-house recruiter, thebig focus is typically time to
hire.
So fill this quickly, becauseit costs money to have open
seats.
It also costs money to payrecruiters to recruit a position
, and so that motivation is tofill it quickly, which is good,
(13:18):
right, and candidates want toget hired quickly as well.
But if someone comes in at alower salary, that also really
eases that transaction for thecompany.
For an executive recruiter, theyalso want to work quickly, but
they're going for quality withthe firm.
The firm is going to pay forthat and when they present you
with the best salary, that makessense for both parties.
(13:41):
You win because you're probablygoing to get offered more.
There's also, I think, a littlebit more prestige coming
through with an executiverecruiter.
You've been vetted already.
Typically, what I did is Iwould send a PDF along with
every candidate, give them somebackground information, things
they've done that stand out,highlights, maybe a photo of
them and kind of a pitch forthem.
(14:02):
So you're getting that personin your back corner and, like
you said, they're motivated forthe reasons that you are also
motivated by which, to saybluntly, is income for both
parties.
Speaker 1 (14:13):
That's right.
What a shocker.
Compensation matters, right.
So what do you see right now?
Before we get into what, you'respending your time on the job
market.
You speak with a lot ofcandidates.
How would you describe it rightnow?
Is it improving?
Yet we're recording in themiddle of October 2023.
It's been a rough year for alot of folks, even layoffs in
(14:36):
the last week.
We've seen, with LinkedIn,bullhorn two big names in the
job space for sure.
How would you describe themarket right now?
Speaker 2 (14:49):
I've recreated in both high unemployment economies
and low unemployment economies.
As I know you have as well.
You've been through thosecycles and the feeling or word
I'd use for job seekers when aneconomy is booming which I don't
think it is right now, but inthe past job seekers are more
assertive and they feel thatcompanies are competing for them
(15:12):
and that the job seeker canname the terms.
And I've seen that and that'sbeen how it is right now, and I
get a lot of emails fromlisteners and they're struggling
to find employment.
I think the feeling isfrustrated.
It's not just frustratedbecause they're not hired.
(15:32):
Companies aren't hiring as much, so there's a lot more
competition for jobs and so thatoversaturates the job market
with talent and so each job isgetting a ton of applications.
So what does that do?
That diminishes the candidateexperience at the company that
they applied to.
And then candidates they wantto get to know the company.
(15:54):
They want to start arelationship, not just to get
their foot in the door the rightway, but they want to know
about the company they're goingto work with.
And what I'm seeing isrecruiters are just running
through a bunch of interviewquestions and then a quick
goodbye.
And with so many applicationsthat they're receiving and maybe
even recruiting departmentsbeing short staffed, there's
(16:17):
just not as much time to get toknow candidates, and so
candidates aren't really beingheard or seen as people which,
when it's, I'd say, a boomingeconomy, when there's a lot of
jobs and not enough people,companies are saying tell me
about you, laughing at all yourjokes and, for a higher level
(16:38):
positions, really courting thecandidates.
And that still happens, ofcourse.
But that interaction of, Ithink, being heard and your time
being respected as someone whocan help the company and so thus
being heard and spoken with,that's hurting people and then
they also feel they're notgetting noticed at all.
And that's just, I think,because there's so many
(16:58):
applicants for jobs, so,jobseeker, they know they're a
great fit for the role and theyknow they can help the company.
They know, oh, I can fix this,I can do this right, but then
they're applying and not gettinga response, or they're just
getting a rejection email aftera couple months and they don't
get any interviews.
And that's a big part of what Italk about is how to cut through
(17:20):
that noise and get noticed andconnect the dots for recruiters
and create a unique interactionto help them understand why
you're the fit for the role.
And my take on it now, in kindof this current environment, is
that you have to thatinteraction that you want, you
have to create that.
That's on you now and youcovered it in a podcast the
(17:42):
Career Generalist vs aSpecialist.
Showing them how you're thespecial candidate not special
because of who you are, but howyour special skills.
Connecting those dots for therecruiter right away that might
not even understand the role allthat well.
Saying here's my skills, here'sthree things I can do to help
your company, here's why I thinkthe manager will.
(18:04):
Here's a skill of mine I thinkthe manager will be excited
about, so on and so forth.
So flipping the script a littlebit and making that connection
for the recruiter, doing part oftheir job for them, which is
connecting the dots andrealizing that you're the person
they should keep talking to.
Speaker 1 (18:18):
I love that, and I think that's something that
candidates probably don'trealize with enough frequency is
that a lot of times therecruiter is working on a role
that they don't fully understand, and every situation is unique.
Some recruiters are very deepin the specialty area that
they're recruiting for.
Others it really is just theopposite, where they just know
(18:42):
very little about the role thatthey're recruiting for.
So you said, connect the dotsit's a perfect way to phrase it.
Make it easy for the recruitersto match your skills and
background and what you can doto the job description.
And it is a frustrating timefor candidates.
We know that they need help,and I put a post up for an
(19:05):
internal recruiter role not toolong ago and it received
hundreds of applicants within afew hours, and by the time I
turned the job off we hadreceived well over 1,000 and
close to 2,000 applicants.
And just the time to look atthose applicants, to glance at
them, you do the math on that.
(19:25):
It is unfavorable to thecandidates, to say the least,
and I don't have a good solutionto it.
I have some, but I'm not goingto try to spend time on those
today because it involveschanging the system that we have
in place.
So I think the best thing wecan do now and you're doing it,
so I want to shift our focus totalking about what you're doing
(19:47):
to help is to allow thecandidates who are on the market
right now job seekers to thrivein the situation that we're in,
for better or worse and in manyways it is worse than it was
and when you started recruitingwhen I started recruiting right
now, the effort to apply is solow.
The effort to post a job is solow.
(20:09):
It leads to these really bignumbers, in my opinion.
Now I start to date myself whenI go too far down that road, so
we won't do that.
But you started podcastingbecause you saw a need to
provide better advice than whatyou were seeing.
So talk about that.
What made you really get intopodcasting in the first place?
Speaker 2 (20:27):
I never, ever thought I would have a podcast.
I knew that I had a fresh,modern take on job interviews
and getting hired.
A lot of HR professionalsaren't especially helpful in
sharing their knowledge andthey've been taught not to
interact with the candidates inthat way.
Right, you can't give feedbackafter a job interview.
You really shouldn't.
(20:48):
Right, it puts the company atrisk.
Or the other side are socialmedia personalities that are
rereading chat, gpt and theydon't have any experience of
their own.
So I thought I could bring in alot of experience that I have
and just share it with jobseekers.
And I've done quite a bit ofinterview coaching, pete and,
(21:10):
I'll say humbly, with a veryhigh success rate for people I
work with.
So I started the podcast justto share everything I know on
helping people to get hired, andin a format that everyone in
the world would have access toat their own pace and for free.
So the one-on-one interviewcoaching is expensive and I
share my tips on doing thoseright how to stand out, how to
(21:34):
position yourself and a lot ofjust what not to do and then
what to do from a perspective ofsomeone who's seen so many
interviews that there's littlethings you can do just to break
the pattern a little bit, andthe feedback has been huge.
People listen to the podcast andthey do the hard work of
applying what they've learnedand they write in and say that
(21:56):
they've gotten hired.
And for me that's the bigreward of it.
I get emotional every time Iread those because I know people
struggle and it's an incrediblystressful time in a career to
have rent and car payments andchildcare and not know when
you're going to get a job andright now I think it feels a
little gloomy for people,especially in this market.
(22:17):
So for me it's being able toshare what I know with people,
and I don't like the sound of myown voice.
I've never had a desire to bekind of a public type speaker or
figure, but it has made animpact.
I really hope it has andcontinues to do so.
And so I just put out a coupleepisodes and thought, wow, I
(22:38):
have a lot more I could shareand this seems to be helping
folks.
So I just kept doing it andhere we are today.
Speaker 1 (22:44):
It's great that you're doing it, and I would say
you're unnatural, because whenI first heard you on air before
we met, I thought oh man, I'msuch, I felt like such a hack
because you sound, you have avoice made for it and so, even
though you didn't see thatyourself doing it, it's a
phenomenal podcast.
(23:05):
It is helping a lot of people.
So talk a little bit more aboutwhat those who would listen can
get out of it.
If you would, matthew, you'rehelping a lot of folks who
should listen to the podcast.
Speaker 2 (23:20):
So I would.
Typically, I think I have twotypes of listeners.
One are they're newer in theircareers and they know that this
whole thing is a big mystery andthey know they're not good at
it and so they want to learnabout it.
They want to get insight.
The other type of listenerthey're further along in their
career and maybe they've gottento really good places in their
(23:42):
career, but either they've losta job or they'd want to pursue
something way bigger and better.
But they have an interview infive or 10 years and it's just a
learned skill and so they'retuning into, freshen up.
They've probably experienced alot of this stuff, but they want
.
They know that things willclick again once they start
learning about them.
So in each episode I covertopics like, we'll say, phone
(24:05):
interviews, the real reasonbehind interview questions,
because a lot of times it's notthe question you're being asked.
There's something else behindit.
So, for example, if you'reinterviewing with a recruiter
and they say what do you knowabout this company?
Well, they work there.
They know about the company.
So they're not asking you togain knowledge on the place they
work.
So it's actually kind of asilly question.
(24:27):
Really, what they're asking isdo you care enough to invest
your time before thisconversation to learn what we're
doing?
Do you understand what we'redoing?
So questions like that need tobe dug into A question like tell
me about your last boss.
They don't care about your lastboss.
They're never gonna meet yourlast boss.
How do you react to that?
(24:48):
Do you?
Does it turn into a therapysession where you start going
through the bad experienceyou've had, which most people
have, and they should talk aboutthat, but not during the
interview, because it shows,maybe, how you'll act with bad
experiences from coworkers atthis new workplace.
Obviously, I'm starting to gointo my own episode here.
(25:10):
So, yeah, the strengths andweaknesses question.
I talk about how to connect thedots between your job
description, your resume and thejob description for a job, how
to connect those dots and pullthat into your interview so you
make it easy for the recruiter.
Every week I have a careerindustry expert on the podcast
and they come in and share theirknowledge, which goes way
(25:32):
beyond what I know.
I just had a guy from Floridawith a recruiting firm come on.
It's gonna be one of the bestepisodes we ever have.
So that kind of summarizes whatI talk about Try and cover some
relevant topics, doing a softskills course right now.
So just empower job interviewswith stuff that's just outside
of what they think about,because they're busy with their
(25:53):
own skillset.
Speaker 1 (25:55):
Why are we so bad at interviewing?
I mean, if you had to sum it up, we know it's a need.
Zinnig, as you already know, Ifounded with my team because we
knew that there was so much helpneeded in different areas from,
in particular to me near anddear to my heart as a father of
four kids aged 15 to 23, thatyoung people need help right
(26:21):
With career advice and guidance.
The system is not great forthem either on knowing how to
choose a career path, and wesend kids off to college with no
great idea of why.
But that's also for a differentepisode.
But collectively we're bad atinterviewing.
Why is that?
Speaker 2 (26:42):
I think the biggest thing is not understanding why
the company is hiring and notunderstanding that the company
is looking for a solution to aproblem, and if you present
yourself that way, then you'remuch more likely to be hired.
Unfortunately, the situationjob seekers are in they need a
(27:06):
job, typically for the incomeand the stability, and they get
focused in on that and duringtheir interview they talk about
and it's good to talk aboutyourself during your interview,
but their focus is on the joband how this job will help them
and the reasons they wanna workfor the company, the reasons
they try and impress the company, all actually reflect on what
(27:28):
their needs are and not thecompany's needs.
So I think and I could gofurther into that, but I'll
table that but it'smisunderstanding that, which
completely changes the approachof the conversation.
The other side of this jobseekers struggle because job
interviews themselves are askill that takes practice and
understanding and your job isapplying the skill that you have
(27:52):
.
So, say, software developmentor marketing, that's your skill
set.
Your skill set isn't jobinterviews.
My skill set is job interviewsbut not being in them.
So even for me, I haven't beenin many job interviews at all as
interview-y.
So, pete, you and I know a lotabout interviews because we've
processed so many that have gonewell and that have failed, so
(28:16):
we can share that knowledge.
But job seekers have beenfocused on their own skills and
not this outside experience.
That happens once every coupleof years and so it's just
practice and experience and thathelps shake the nerves.
The other part is knowing how torepresent yourself as a
candidate, and most people gointo interviews and they feel
like interrogations.
They answer questions aboutthemselves and move on.
(28:39):
Really, they go in and kind ofgo a little bit deeper than
their resume and hope for a callback, and so what I talk about
is flipping the script andapproaching employers as a
solution, like I said earlier,instead of a job candidate.
So, instead of here's my resumeand background, it's here's
(29:00):
what I noticed about your mostrecent marketing campaign and
three ideas on how to improveits efficacy.
So things like that.
Of course, job seekers don'tthink about that, because
they're not doing this 40 hoursa week, they're doing it once or
twice a year at most.
That's where things like Zengigcome in and hope and power
(29:22):
folks and, I think, give them alot more confidence.
Is there able to getperspective from people who
really can tell you how to do itthe right way, or just tell you
how to put your best footforward and represent yourself
as you wanna be seen, as opposedto how the nervous version of
you goes in and kind of losesfocus on what's important to the
employer.
Speaker 1 (29:41):
It's a lot of pressure in an area where you
don't have expertise to your, asyou just said, a great employee
.
It's a good thing that anemployee, generally speaking,
hasn't had to interview a lot,right Longevity at their job or
being tapped for newopportunities, like what
happened to you.
(30:02):
You didn't have to interviewfor that job, they found you.
That happens a lot, but yet ittends to be a negative.
When you have to perform on astage you're not used to
performing on, it almost worksagainst you to be successful in
a terrible you know, ironictwist.
So we have the job interviewexperience podcast providing a
(30:27):
lot of information at a highlevel.
If you need to go deeper, right, talk about your coaching a
little bit.
What is Candidate Club?
Speaker 2 (30:38):
So Candidate Club is interactive interview training.
So if a job seeker feels out ofpractice for job interviews, I
built out something so it has.
You know, phone interviewtraining, video chat, in-person
interview training, and so usersare presented with an interview
question, say in thesetrainings, and they see multiple
responses.
And then, after every singleinterview question, there is a
(31:01):
video and text digging into thereal reason behind the interview
question common mistakes thatpeople make, things to do, right
, things to avoid and more thanthat, just depending on the
question, things like thestrengths and weaknesses
question.
I really break down into longerlearning kind of sessions, and
(31:22):
when I say that I mean maybeit's a five minute video.
Some of these are just 30seconds of a video, just walking
through.
Here's what to look out for,here's what this question really
means and here's how you canformulate your own response.
Also, of course, is on how towrite a short, effective cover
letter, which is one of myfavorite topics.
How to make it about theemployer, not you, and make it
(31:42):
really short so it gets noticed.
Little things like adding threebullet points one, two, three
just to break up your coverletter will make it stand way
out and give people three actionitems, whether they're ideas,
unique things to highlight.
But back to Candidate Club.
Really, the idea is to make itimmersive and engaging, and I'll
(32:04):
liken it to say you wanna play,learn how to play guitar?
You can watch videos online onhow to play guitar.
Guitar, you can read about howto play guitar, but once you
pick it up and interact with ita little bit, that's when things
start to click a little bitmore, and so that's why I built
the training to be the way it isthat you're actively having to
(32:25):
engage with it instead ofpassively learning about this
stuff, and I think both wayswork well.
I just think this is a way todig a little bit deeper.
Speaker 1 (32:34):
Yeah, and in this competitive market, you need to
take advantage of resources thatexist to give yourself the best
opportunity.
We I don't say we laugh aboutit, but I roll my eyes every
time someone gets upset, forexample, that there's a bad
resume.
Right, this candidate isn'tgood because they have a bad
resume.
(32:54):
Well, people aren't used towriting resumes.
It's okay.
You're not hiring them becausethey're going to be a good
resume writer.
Similarly, you don't hiresomeone because they interview
well, but they have to getthrough it because it's
competitive.
They're up against someone elseand you want to make that
(33:14):
decision as easy as possible forthe hiring manager and, as you,
you can't see what mistakesyou're making.
You is a candidate.
You can't look at your ownactions.
I mean, no one intends to havea bad resume, right?
No one intends to interviewpoorly, but you need outside
expertise when you're not usedto doing it, and I think it's
(33:40):
probably something that peopletake for granted way too much
that let me just show up andinterview.
I know my stuff, but one of thethings we have on ZendGig, for
example, is a list of quotecommon interview questions,
right?
Well, there's over 70 of themthat we have that are commonly
used, and just think about that.
Who's prepared for those?
(34:01):
And no one.
I won't say no one.
Very few people are going totake the time, or even have the
time, if they were willing totake it, to do their own
research.
So you need outside help.
Just like I keep using a resumeanalogy.
One of our recruiters can lookat a resume, clean it up very
quickly, turn it around, as I'msure you've had to do in your
past right, look at a resume andrealize what the mistakes are.
(34:23):
They jump off the page and Isuspect when you coach someone
for interviewing, the same thingis true.
You see really obvious thingsthat the person who's working
with you probably has no ideathey're even doing wrong.
Speaker 2 (34:39):
What's interesting about what you said as far as a
bad resume or a bad interview isthat I remember over a decade
ago I was placing Salesforceengineers for actually two
different clients probably alittle over a decade ago and
(34:59):
these folks could have come inand put their pet bird in a cage
on the interview table withthese clients and talk to the
bird the whole time and theystill would have gotten hired
because people wanted Salesforceengineers that bad and they
would have paid a lot for them.
And to kind of get into thephilosophical side of interviews
(35:20):
, of course you wanna get hiredand of course you wanna do a
really good job.
You wanna make good use of thecompany's time and answer the
questions Well, give theinformation they need.
If a company doesn't like youbecause you had, you have great
skills but you had a badinterview, just because you're
nervous, you might not wannawork there.
If they can see through yournervousness and maybe some
(35:44):
pauses, maybe, whatever,whatever those small things
might be.
Maybe your resume is black andwhite and kind of ugly, but if
you have great skills and acompany appreciates you for that
, if you come in and you'renervous at your interview, you
get along well with everybodyand you have the right skills, I
think those are the companiesthat have the right priorities
(36:04):
If they're hiring a PRspokesperson.
Of course you have to be superpolished and I think you should
be as polished as possible.
But some of these companies thatare so incredibly picky I just
heard a story about someone whohad a Zoom interview at the
beginning of the pandemic andit's so hard to read each other,
especially with pauses andthings like that and they
(36:25):
interrupted the interviewer whohad kind of stopped a question
and then how you ask twoquestions in the same question
and they interrupted and theywere told by the company that
they didn't get hired becausethey interrupted during their
interview.
And they're like you neverinterrupt the interviewer and
obviously interrupting's bad andit's even probably for you,
pete, I know for me when Iinterview people on the podcast
(36:45):
it's really hard to know whenthe point's been finished and
then giving that pause.
You don't want the pause to betoo long, but in a world where
it's changing and we're on Zoomall of a sudden and doing
interviews, you don't wanna workfor that company that actually
even tells you you didn't gethired because you interrupted
Like they're so special that youcould never do that, and
(37:08):
probably if you did that in ameeting as well, you would be in
trouble.
And so, digging into that andlooking into that a little bit
more, you want a great resume,you wanna present yourself well,
you wanna know how to answerthese questions, but at the end
of the day, if they don't likeyou and their take on, that is
perfection, which, by the way,they aren't either.
Maybe you have a sigh of reliefthat you didn't get hired there
(37:30):
for anyone that's listening,because those companies might
not treat you as well ascompanies who look at you for
who you are and like you for theimperfect, nervous interviewer
that you are, because you havethe skills that can help them
move forward, and that's whatthey're focused on.
Speaker 1 (37:44):
And there's been so many ridiculous things that I've
heard back from post interviewcomments that the unrealistic
expectations that were placedupon the candidate.
Just as a quick example, we hada client I shouldn't say this
(38:07):
publicly, but what the heck?
I'm already down the road whorefused to hire any candidate
who couldn't say whatpublications industry
publications they regularly read, and it didn't matter how good
they were and or anything else.
That was there one reason torule people out and it was a
(38:27):
very frustrating thing tocontend with as a recruiter and
you could imagine we startedpreparing candidates accordingly
, right For that scenario.
But I think the point you justalluded to is a really important
one for job seekers.
Is it the person doing theinterview?
Conducting the interview moreoften than not isn't necessarily
(38:48):
proficient at it either.
They don't have expertise inthat.
So it's sort of like the blindleading the blind in many cases,
and so a candidate can'tcontrol that.
They have to be able to controltheir own preparation, just
knowing that there's gonna besome unrealistic and goofy
things thrown their way on aregular basis.
Speaker 2 (39:09):
Couldn't agree more.
Speaker 1 (39:11):
If you had to summarize the top thing that
candidates do hurdle to overcome, what would be the top hurdle
that candidates need to overcomein interviews?
Is there a recurring theme thatyou see?
Speaker 2 (39:28):
Having a conversation instead of an interview.
Turning your interview into aconversation is really, really
difficult to do, but if you cando that, and instead of
answering questions aboutyourself, the best interviews
I've ever had with people yeah,I've been sitting in a room,
(39:48):
especially when working as adirector of talent acquisition.
You're talking to someone andthey're not always, like I said
earlier, they're not always themost polished and perfect, but
when they go from answeringquestions about themselves to,
all of a sudden, they're givingtheir feedback on what worked on
a new initiative.
They're saying what softwaresaved their company money that
(40:10):
you didn't know about.
They're telling you a salesstrategy that your team hasn't
thought of, or maybe you'vethought of but you didn't know
if it worked and they talk abouthow it works.
I've been in those rooms anumber of times where you're in
there with maybe the hiringmanager, maybe the owner of the
company.
It's a final interview and youkind of accidentally glance each
other.
You just know we're gonna makethis person an offer and we're
gonna make the offer work forthem.
(40:30):
We're gonna hire this personand, whether you are really
early in your career or you aremore experienced, being able and
trying as much as you can toturn that interview from an
interview into a conversation,and there's a lot of things you
have to be careful of here andthere's more to dig into.
I'm sure Zengig talks aboutthis how to?
(40:52):
Obviously you wanna positionyourself well.
You don't wanna criticize whatthey're doing, you don't wanna
throw someone under the buswho's in the room, who maybe
came up with an initiative thatyou're critiquing, but we can
come in and start helping themduring your interview.
The hurdle of going frominterviewer to I don't like the
word consultant but moresolution if you can come in and
(41:13):
be a solution even if you'reright out of college, and you
can come in and say I've beenresearching this area a lot and
I found these two new tools thatI think any company should know
about and actually print out.
I printed off right here onthis PDF some options here, some
pricing here and the reach thatthis will get you on your next
(41:35):
advertising campaign if youwould use this.
All of a sudden, you're helpingthem and if they like what
you're saying, they're gonnawant you to keep helping them.
And you're not an applicant,you're a solution and shifting
your mind from that, from beinga scared job seeker to someone
who can help the company and youcan show the company that they
need your help.
That's a big hurdle and I thinkthat's probably something that
(41:58):
a lot of listeners haven't quitethought of that way.
But if you can get your mindpast that and start maybe
looking back to past interviewsor you can apply this to your
cover letter as well that'ssomeone who really gets noticed
by companies and when you do iton your cover letter like I said
, those three bullet points Imentioned earlier when you can
do that and have three ideas forthem, three solutions, three
(42:20):
new, if you're a salespersonthree new markets you can enter
and mentioning hey, I haveRolodex in this area.
Here's three things, here's atimeline I think we can have.
Instead of making your coverletter about yourself doing that
, that cover letter of thethousands that you mentioned
that you probably get, that juststands out immediately.
It just looks different.
And during the interview you'rethat person that after the
(42:41):
interview they're not justtalking about you, they're
saying, hey, look up that onesoftware product that person
talked about.
That can save us a bunch oftime on our editing or whatever
it is.
Get over that hurdle and you'regonna impress companies and
they're gonna wanna keep talkingto you and hopefully they're
gonna wanna hire you.
Speaker 1 (42:59):
That alone is worth its weight in gold.
That advice you just gave isthe most powerful, impactful
thing that I think any candidatewho's interviewing could hear.
And if that's a sample of whatyou get for someone working with
you, matthew, then case closedwhether anyone should consider
taking advantage of what youhave to offer.
(43:20):
Because I can tell you that oneof the things that I've focused
on so much over the years is,if I'm good at my job as a
staffing provider, can I turnthe maybes into a yes right?
Can I help those candidates whomay have not gotten the job get
over the finish line?
And if a candidate is willingto do even a partial effort of
(43:46):
what you just said, the fulleffort is almost going to be a
slam dunk every time.
I would be shocked if someonedoesn't get hired.
Who does that, if they're atall qualified?
But that kind of effort willmake all the difference in the
world.
I'm really glad you said thatand I appreciate you taking the
time to make that importantpoint, because I would say and
maybe I'll ask you before Iwon't say it how many candidates
(44:09):
you think put forth that levelof effort going in without you
telling them it's a good thingto do.
What percentage?
Speaker 2 (44:17):
Maybe one out of a couple hundred, and I think for
some people that's theirpersonality trait and I think
you'll see that a lot more andhappen naturally with
salespeople who a goodsalesperson sell solutions, so
they're doing that during theirinterview.
But for most other folks it justyou just don't think that way.
I never would have thought thatway before moving into the
(44:41):
recruiting and hiring industry.
Very few people do that, and sothat's just another way to make
it stand out, even if it's justlike who was that college kid
who was pitching us on this newtool to do this on our computers
that said they saved their lastcompany $100,000 a year when
they did it and so they pay forthemselves?
(45:02):
Who was that person?
Well, let's talk to them again,if you can do that and again
approach it delicately,understand who you're talking to
, your audience is and whatthey've done to have these
things in place right, and soI'd say positive solutions, not
I wouldn't critique or givenegative feedback on anything
(45:23):
they've done unless you reallywanna put yourself out there.
Very few people do that and itgives me it gives me caution.
Yeah, it gives them a glimpse ofyour motivation, what you're
capable of and, hopefully, howyou'll perform as a candidate,
what you'll continue to do andnot just like you didn't stop at
being a job candidate.
You became a solution.
(45:44):
Once you're employed, you won'tstop at just your job title.
You'll be a researcher, you'llbe innovative, you'll go outside
of your own kind of purview tofind things that can help this
company and you have.
As a job seeker, you bettercommit to continuing to perform
that way.
And so it is.
(46:04):
This isn't an easy trick I'moffering here.
You gotta put in the workbefore you write your cover
letter.
You have to put in the workbefore you have your interview.
You gotta keep doing thatduring your job once you're
hired.
But if you do, your career'sgonna go a heck of a lot more
places than you ever thought itwould if you can incorporate
this not just into your jobsearch but into your career in
(46:25):
general.
Speaker 1 (46:27):
Could not agree more, and so, if you're a motivated
candidate, this is the kind ofadvice you need, and you need to
follow up on it and actually dowhat's being recommended.
So, matthew, I think that's agreat place to end.
It's such a valuable piece ofinformation.
We're not going to top it rightnow.
I'm sure you probably can, butyou're going to have to check
(46:47):
out Matthew on your own.
If you wanna hear more and Ihighly recommend that you do so
for the podcast, the jobinterview experience, it's on
all major channels.
You can find it for sure.
We'll link to it in our shownotes.
And for more hands-on, specificcoaching and help from Matthew,
go to what's your website thatthey need to go to for Candidate
Club.
Speaker 2 (47:07):
So CandidateClubcom is just the interview training,
if it makes it easier for folks.
If you go toJobInterviewExperiencecom you
will find the podcasts and linksto Candidate Club.
To just check out what thatlooks like.
Speaker 1 (47:21):
Perfect, and we'll put those links in the show
notes.
Matthew, thank you so much forbeing generous with your time
and sharing your informationtoday.
I really appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (47:28):
Love speaking with you, Pete.
Thanks for having me All right,thanks for listening.
Speaker 1 (47:31):
We'll talk to everyone soon Å‘.
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