August 28, 2023 • 37 mins
Have you ever wondered about the importance of job references when seeking employment? Together, hosts Pete Newsome and Ricky Baez dissect this critical topic, highlighting its significance in the hiring process. Their conversation goes deep into the role references play in affirming your character and skill set to potential employers. They'll tackle challenging topics, such as addressing a situation where your current boss may not be your most favorable reference.
As Pete and Ricky peel back the layers of obtaining references, they'll guide you through the professional etiquette of leaving a job. Drawing from their respective areas of expertise, they offer invaluable tips on handling references with grace and professionalism. They also stress the importance of supplying your references with your resume and other pertinent information, plus why it's crucial to show them gratitude for their time. Whether you're starting your career or looking to make a significant move, don't miss out on these game-changing insights. Trust them; it could be the difference between landing your dream role or missing out.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Pete Newsome (00:00):
You're listening to the Finding Career Zen
Podcast.
I'm Pete Newsome and I'm joinedagain today by Ricky Baez.
Ricky, how are you?
Ricky Baez (00:07):
I am doing fantastic , pete, it's Friday, we're in
Florida, we can't complain.
Pete Newsome (00:12):
No, well, you can, but no one's going to care,
that we know right.
Ricky Baez (00:16):
No one's going to care.
You're right.
Pete Newsome (00:17):
So we won't complain, We'll choose not to,
and instead we'll talk aboutsomething that's relevant to our
listeners, which is thereference process and a pretty
important thing in the entireinterview process necessary to
get a job.
In a lot of cases most cases, Iwould say, but it's not always
the easiest part to handle A lotof people don't know who to use
(00:39):
as a reference, how to go aboutasking someone to be a
reference, so that's what we'rehere to talk about today.
Ricky Baez (00:45):
Absolutely.
And folks references it's to mePete references is no different
than you looking for a plumberand you're asking for your
friends and neighbors on who's agreat plumber.
That's exactly what referencesdo.
If you're looking for a job,right, it's just somebody other
than yourself talking up yourskill set and talking up who you
(01:05):
are as a person.
Pete Newsome (01:06):
Well, it's saying, hey, I may want to hire this
plumber, right, but I want tofind out whether this person is
actually as good as they saythey are.
So that's what I think of as areference Someone who can attest
to your skills, your background, your ability, your character
and effectively giveconfirmation that you are who
(01:29):
you claim to be right, who yourresume says you are, who you
appear to be, through theinterview process.
So it's a really important stepand, as a long-time staffing
company owner, it's something Itake very seriously I would say
more seriously than most,because our reputation is on the
line.
When we recruit a candidate andsubmit that candidate for
consideration to one of ourclients, it is our line of
(01:53):
defense.
I'll say that's necessary andI'll tell you there's nothing
worse than getting a phone callto say did you check that
person's reference?
Because you know it's not good,whatever would come next, and I
would always want to be able tosay definitively yes, I did so.
I think it's a really importantpart of the process.
Now, in your entire HR career,what would you say?
(02:16):
I mean, do you think mostcompanies take it seriously?
I don't think they do.
I think some do, but most don't.
Ricky Baez (02:22):
The only companies that take it seriously are the
ones who got burned by not doingit right.
It's like we're in a seatbelt,right?
Oh, why do I need this?
Why do I need this?
Until you get into a fenderbender and it could have been
worse if you didn't have yourseatbelt on you quickly realize
the value of it right.
Same thing here.
Actually, I think I was readinga story that I used from my
(02:43):
class about a year ago.
It was a big retailorganization that hired somebody
, didn't check any references,and this person turned out to be
a violent criminal, right, thatjust wasn't really arrested for
it.
But what ended up happening isthat they did something that got
the organization in trouble.
And then you get that question.
(03:04):
The question is did you checkthis person's?
Pete Newsome (03:06):
Or did you run their background right?
I mean that Absolutely, andthose stories do happen a lot.
That's a little bit of adifferent topic, but still
relevant.
Is this person going to be agood hire?
We know, or at least I stronglybelieve, that you really don't
know what someone's like tillyou live with them, right, and
(03:28):
they can interview.
Well, they can look great.
On paper it seems like a matchmade in heaven, but when you
actually have someone in theseat and you have to see each
other day to day, you get toknow what someone's really like,
just like in any relationship.
So this is that extra layer,right.
A criminal history.
Is this person a felon?
Well, that's relevant to knowfor a lot of jobs, right.
(03:51):
But how well did this personperform in the past?
And your seatbelt analogy is areally good one, because when I
was I'm so old, ricky, that youused to have drivers at in
school where you learned todrive that way and I remember a
guest came in one day.
It was somebody who worked forthe police department
investigator and he said youknow, he was a bunch of 15 year
olds, right, who probablyweren't inclined to wear
(04:13):
seatbelts habitually.
And he said I've neverunbuckled a dead body, and he
said I've dealt with a lot ofdead bodies and it just
resonated with me, so I got theright message at a young age.
And so that is a really goodanalogy, because when I think of
(04:33):
references, it's easy to cutcorners right as an employer,
but you shouldn't and so forcandidates who are really
speaking to today, be preparedfor right and so a lot of people
.
If you're young in your careerespecially, you don't think you
have anyone to give as areference, or you don't know who
you should give as a reference.
That's who I really want tofocus on today.
(04:54):
Well, let the employers worryabout themselves separately,
right, or hire a really goodstaffing company who will do it
for you, that's that optionexists but let's start with that
.
So we've already said that areference is someone who can
attest to who you are, whatyou've done, what you give your
(05:14):
prospective employer someindication of what you'll be
like if they hire you.
But if you don't have any workhistory, where do you start?
Right, where do you start?
Well, let's first break downthe different kinds of
references.
Right, there's professional ifyou don't have a professional
history, great, well, we'll getto that later.
Academic if you're young, youhave academic history in terms
(05:37):
of professors, teachers, rightyou.
And then you have characterreferences, coaches, people from
your community, neighborsyou've worked with.
So let's kind of talk aboutthose in detail.
You up for that?
I'm up for it well, let's startat the, the character references
.
Now I think a lot of theyounger you are, the more
(05:57):
relevant that is because you'renot going to have the
professional history.
So if you're a job seeker andyou don't have those those
professional references to go toin a lot of us do after been
the workforce for a while thenyou really start.
You need to start thinkingabout who could be that
character reference for you.
Where do you recommend someone?
Begin that?
Ricky Baez (06:18):
so I like how you said where do you start?
Right, because the two kidsjust pick out a name of people
you know.
You get to be really strategicabout it.
So you get a sit down andfigure out who will paint you in
the best light and what you'relooking to do, right, see.
So, again, character reference.
You can pick a sports coach, acommunity leader, a neighbor,
(06:38):
exactly how you said.
But I mean not all of thosepeople.
Unless you, you walk a water,not all of those people view you
in the same light.
So you might want to make a listbased on what you're looking to
do.
Who is going to speak for theskill set that this employer is
looking for, and make out that.
Listen, those are the peoplewho you should select as a
(06:59):
character reference.
Now, don't just blindly throwthe their name out there.
Why should figure out who youwant to select?
Give them a call and let themknow, ask them first.
Can I use you as a reference?
Here is what I'm trying to do,here is what I applied for.
Is this something you'll beable to do for me?
Right, and then it's.
(07:19):
It's.
You really have to be, butmethodical about it, right,
because you can't just pickanybody, and then they'll say
anything about you that mightcome back and buy you in the but
later on so let's look, putthat aside for the moment.
Pete Newsome (07:32):
So I do want to drill into how to approach
someone, when to approachsomeone and so, but you're a
hundred percent on point withthat.
It's a really important thingto bring up.
But the the first thing yousaid to come attention was
planning.
It's not something you want todo on the fly, but it's
something that job seekersrarely do.
On the front end of theirsearch they're thinking about
(07:54):
their resume, they're thinkingabout how to find jobs, how to
you get interviews.
No one's really thinking aboutthe reference part.
But that's okay and that'snormal.
So when you get there, take thetime to play, make a list, just
like you said.
It's easy again if you're inthe been in the professional
world for a long time, becausemost organizations who are
(08:17):
considering you for a job aregoing to want your professional
references and not really getinto the character references.
So you, the younger you are,the more relevant that is.
So make that list and and startoff and then consider, like you
said, why one person would beappropriate for one scenario, a
different person for another.
Make as long a list as you canand then that gives you the best
(08:38):
options to choose from when thetime comes.
Next group is your academic.
Now, a lot depending on whereyou went to school, right.
How, how well you did as astudent, right?
I didn't probably have a longlist of academic references.
Truth be told, when I wascoming out of school that would
not have been my strong suit andthat's okay, right, but but
(09:02):
depending on who you are let'ssay you're an introvert who
doesn't have a lot of characterreferences.
You weren't involved in clubsand activities and teams and and
out and about in the community.
That's okay.
Hopefully you were involvedacademically and you have people
to go to, and I think the samelogic applies.
So rights make a list.
(09:23):
Who do you think should be onthat list for academic
references?
Ricky Baez (09:26):
so it's a professor.
I love that idea.
But, just like the characterreference, make a list right,
because you don't know how aprofessor perceive you.
Now, every air on I can't seeevery, almost every student has
one professor, one teacher whothey resonated with, right and
and and I remember fourth grade,mrs Anderson.
(09:49):
She taught me how to writescript.
Nobody a cursive, nobody doesthat, he put right.
Obviously that's that's a longtime ago, but that is a teacher
that many moons later I stillremember.
So in college.
There has to be a professorthat you, that you resonated
with and you've had that reportwith.
That's the professor that youneed to connect.
They will paint you into thatbest light.
(10:09):
If you got a professor who, whokind of like through the book
at you and you kind of had roughpatches with, yeah, you may not
want to pick that person, or aclassmate or a lab instructor,
depending what you did somebodywho, who is an, who has
experienced the output of yourwork, that can articulate that
in a way that will get you hiredright.
(10:30):
You want the person to say, wow, this, this, I don't know what
happened in class there, butthey love this person.
We need to have this person onboard.
So that's where I would start.
What about you?
Pete Newsome (10:40):
well, I agree with everything you said, and and is
someone who's checked a lot ofreferences over the years.
There's nothing worse, Really.
Do you get flat out badreferences?
It doesn't happen.
Very frequently People areafraid to do that number one,
right?
I mean, no one really likes todo that.
Candidates are, for obviousreasons, very hesitant to give
(11:03):
the names and contactinformation of people who are
not going to be favorablereferences, so that's not
surprising.
But it's the ones who don'thave anything to say at all.
Those are the ones that botherme as a recruiter when I'm
considering a candidate.
So you made the point someonewho can really speak to what you
did and what you're all about.
The ones that can't.
(11:24):
It's odd.
It's like why did you give thisperson as reference?
They seem to barely know you.
Ricky Baez (11:30):
Can I see something?
Pete Newsome (11:30):
in that.
Ricky Baez (11:31):
Rick, we're from the opposite end real quick.
So I've gotten those.
I've gotten a reference thatthey did not do a good job in
giving me what I needed aboutthis person to give that person
to the next step.
Now I start thinking two thingsfrom the employer's perspective
what kind of person is this?
And the judgment of this person.
You picked this person to paintyou into the best light and
(11:54):
this is what they gave.
Now your judgment is inquestion, so you've got to do
your homework, because that'show it looks like from my
perspective, right On my end,and I'm assuming it does to you
as well right, it does Well.
Pete Newsome (12:05):
And so let's move on to the professional
references, and because I wantto get into who you should ask
and how and why a little morespecifically.
But professional references aredifferent to me, so I'll just
give everyone a heads up on thisthat we've talked a lot about
how you should depart.
When you, when you put a notice, you should do it respectfully,
(12:26):
professionally, give propernotice by default two weeks and
the reason for that is there's avery good chance of people who
you worked for are going to becalled as a reference at some
point in your future.
Maybe not immediately, but thisis where it makes a lot of
sense and it's necessary to lookup longer term.
And so that's hard to do.
It's really hard to do whenyou're, when you're, when you're
(12:48):
upset, when you're mad or angry, you just want to get out.
And once you make a decision toleave, I mean, let's be honest,
we all know this feeling right,every day seems like torture.
Well, you're not doing it forthe benefit of your employer
you're soon to be formeremployer you're doing it for
your benefit and, hopefully, thebenefit of the people you like
and care about who you workedwith.
(13:08):
I mean, that's, that's great,that's noble, but you're really
doing it for yourself and, aboveall else, because those people
are going to be necessary inyour life at some point.
And I'll tell you why I saythat.
One of the commitments my staffand company for corner resources
has made from day one is thatwe will check professional
(13:28):
references for our clients whoexpect that of us.
And those professionalreferences are not a buddy.
They're not someone you went tolunch with every day, who
worked at a different department.
It's not the person who got youthe job, who, who you know
doesn't work there anymore, anold college roommate.
It's not that we specificallywant to speak to your former
(13:49):
supervisors, the people who youreported to, and we don't say,
hey, ricky, give me a reference.
We say, who did you report toat ABC company?
Now, that's the reference wewant, it's the reference we need
.
It may not be the reference youwant to give, right?
(14:09):
So that is on you as acandidate, as a, as an employee
who may have to give thatreference at some point.
And we're not the only ones whodo that, right.
I mean, I would say that's asmart thing to do.
That's why we've had it inplace for so long.
So Just know that how you leaveis how you'll be thought of,
(14:29):
right, that'll be the the, the,that parting.
You know thought stays forever,so leave in the best possible
light.
That's my soapbox moment.
I always need one, I think.
Right, that's it for today.
Ricky Baez (14:39):
I mean that that that's a good point because
you're right.
You know, when you put in yournotice and you decide to leave
right, your rationale, yourpoint of view, change to to some
people, because I've seen somepeople that they work to the
bitter and I'm talking about tothe bitter and as if they've
never put in those two weeknotice.
And that is the employee youreally don't want to lose, right
, cause they do an amazing job.
(15:01):
But that's a really good pointthat people don't think about.
As soon as you put in that twoweek notice, they're going to
want to reference from thepeople that you put in the two
week notice too.
And I don't care how longyou've been with the
organization two weeks, twoyears, 20 years, 30 years you
will be judged by those last 14days and how you leave Perfect
way to put it.
Pete Newsome (15:21):
Perfect and the, and as, again, someone who has
checked a lot of references, ifI'm checking one for you and
they say, boy, do we miss Ricky,that's music to my ears as a
recruiter.
Right, oh, he did everything.
Right, because, even if you,even if you screwed up a lot
along the way to your point, ifyou, if you leave, well, they're
(15:42):
going to, they're going tothink highly of you and they're
going to want to help you inreturn, right Versus the
opposite.
So proceed with caution there.
You can try to give people whomentors and coworkers and all
that, and maybe you should,right, if I'm being completely
transparent, giving advice tocandidates, give the reference
(16:04):
who's going to put you in thebest light, someone who's going
to be honest, of course, right,not not make up things, say you
did things you didn't do, butsomeone who you feel very
confident will be favorable ifcalled upon.
Right, that's, I mean, that'sjust being smart, it is.
Ricky Baez (16:21):
And and and look it's, it's.
There's a lot of different waysyou can go.
You can go with a manager.
You can go with a coworker, amentor.
If you go with a manager, letme tell you, folks, make sure
you talk to that manager.
And again it's.
I think we're beating, we'redoing it?
Pete Newsome (16:37):
Yep, that's, that's what we do.
Ricky Baez (16:39):
To death.
We are right.
Just make sure that that they,they, they really, really focus
on it, because if you've hadsome rough patches with your
manager, don't use them.
So, pete, now let me ask you aquestion what if you are having
some rough patches with yourmanager and your, your?
Your new company wants areference from your current
supervisor.
Pete Newsome (17:00):
Yeah, that's a.
That's a reality.
And I'll tell you, it just cameup with.
Someone on my team just in thepast week was saying that there
was a, a candidate who said Idid not leave on good terms and
it was a short stent, you couldsee it.
It kind of stuck out on theresume.
I just happened to be lookingat the resume and talking about
this candidate and asking why,you know, did we have that
(17:24):
reference?
And they, they said they didn'twant to give that reference.
It wasn't a good situation.
They left on bad terms.
They'd give it if they neededto, but it was going to be bad.
Now I appreciate that, right,and I don't remember I don't
know if they got into detailabout what actually happened
with the recruiter, but thecandidate didn't hide from it
either, and and that's okay, weall have bad experiences.
(17:45):
I mean, I can think of someoneI reported to in the past who I
can almost guarantee would notspeak very highly of me in many
regards.
I we did, we were, did not mesh.
We'll say it was someone Iinherited as a manager.
This is a long, long time ago,but I still feel the same way
about that situation.
Right, I wouldn't say favorablethings either, so that, but,
(18:09):
but you know what now that's,that's on me, because I'm the
employee who needed, could haveneeded, to rely on that, and I
was the person, and I've toldthe story in the past how it was
a learning opportunity for mebecause I didn't realize job
number one is to make sure, ifI'm an employee somewhere, that
my manager's happy with myperformance.
(18:31):
I wasn't in that mindset backthen.
I was a lot younger.
I thought I knew better.
Maybe I did know better, didn'tmatter, right, I wasn't in
charge.
So we'll move on from that.
But that's a tough one and itcomes up, so just be conscious
of it, and that's why we'retalking about this today.
So you, you could say, well, Imay not be able to stand the way
that person looks or the soundof their voice, but I have to
(18:53):
suck it up and smile until I'mout and leave in the best
possible way, or it's going tofollow you.
Ricky Baez (18:59):
That's right.
That's right, and, and, and,yeah, it's, it's.
You hit the nail right of thehead there.
Just make sure that you suck itup, and it because the end goal
is going to be to make surethat you land on your feet
wherever it is that you go.
That's it.
Pete Newsome (19:12):
So now we, we know who you, who you should ask,
how do you ask them, when do youask them?
We talked about making a list.
You should make as long a listas you can.
It won't take that long.
Go, go through your workhistory, go through your
contacts, put those peopletogether Again professional,
academic character referencesthat's who you want to target
and rank them Right.
(19:34):
You might want to put themsituationally because, depending
on your situation, on your jobsearch, how long it lasts, how
many companies you potentiallyinterview with you, may need to
give references more than once,and that's something to be very
conscious of.
You don't want to go to thesame person over and over and
over, right, don't you agree?
Ricky Baez (19:56):
No, I agree, it's I.
I pause because I'm like thatmakes sense.
That definitely makes sense.
You want a variety of people togive a variety of different
points of view, so I neverthought of it that way, to be
honest.
Pete Newsome (20:09):
Yeah, I mean, it's just it.
Well, if you go through a longenough interview process, you're
going to encounter it.
Ricky Baez (20:18):
Oh yeah, so no, no, no, I get it.
Look, and, and you willencounter that.
But, guys, everybody listening,at the end of the day, you've
got to be relatable ineverything you do.
You have to be relatable.
People have to like you.
Right, the people who do notlike you are not going to, are
not going to give you a glowingreference.
(20:38):
So you know, as you need towork just as hard, you need to
work just as hard at making sureyou provide the right
references and as you do at yourown personal how you come
across to people, right,wouldn't you agree?
Wouldn't you need to work onyour personal skills just to
make sure, at the very least,they give you a glowing review?
Pete Newsome (20:58):
Yeah, so that's yeah.
So we want to approach someonein advance.
So make your list right andthen and then reach out to these
people and, and you know, ifyou were on my list, ricky, I
would say I'd either send you amessage because you don't want
to put someone too much on thespot, you don't want to make it
awkward.
So I would recommend in manycases sending a quick message
via email and say hey, ricky,looking, I'm on the job market
(21:22):
right now.
I'm actively interviewing.
Would you be willing to?
If you, would you be a K-FileList, us professional reference?
If asked, right, I want to giveyou the opportunity to say no,
and you may, you may have areason to.
You may say and this is hard,right, I mean you may say, sure,
pete, I'd, I'd, I'd love to.
Or you may say my company won'tlet me, right, that happens at
(21:43):
times.
I'm not allowed to.
Or, hey, I'm not sure thatwould be the best approach for
you to take, right, that couldhappen.
But you want to give that persona heads up and then commit to
only giving their name out whenthe job is.
It looks serious.
So you know, let's stop and saydo not put your references on
(22:04):
your resume.
That is unnecessary.
It's and I would say it'sinappropriate sort of I mean
it's not a huge offense, but ifsomeone is generous enough to
say, yes, you can list me as areference, then don't take
advantage of that generosity byputting their contact
information out to the world,and I do mean the world.
(22:27):
When you post your resume onLinkedIn or any of the job
boards, it's potentially seen bycountless recruiters who share
it, and it's just, it's a badidea.
I'm surprised it still happensas much as it does.
It's not a great idea.
People will try to contact yourreferences for all kinds of
(22:49):
reasons that have nothing to dowith you.
That know that above all else.
Ricky Baez (22:54):
Well, from the other side of the fence, when I see
that, when I see the samereference being used over and
over again, I'm like what alucrative job.
I'm sure this person is beingpaid 50 bucks a pop to do these
references right.
But we can see it on the otherside.
Now, Pete, I got to tell yousomething that happened to me
not a couple of years ago.
Somebody did exactly what yousaid.
(23:15):
They sent me an email sayinghey, ricky, I'm looking for this
job, I'm applying for this job,would you mind being a
reference?
I said no, I haven't talked tothis person in 15 years.
I can only speak to what thatperson did up until the last
time we worked together, right.
So I don't know how comfortableI would feel in giving a
(23:37):
reference because I don't knowwhat this person has done in 15
years.
So the point I'm making this ismake sure it's somebody that
you at least converse with, youmeet with on a regular basis or
at least recently.
Don't reach out to people thatyou haven't connected with in
years, because, number one, it'sjust okay, you only want me for
my reference.
(23:57):
Number one and number two, youjust don't know how comfortable
they are in giving informationthat's outdated.
Pete Newsome (24:02):
And from a recruiter's perspective, they're
gonna think it's odd as well,because if you give me a
reference from 15 years ago, I'mgonna wonder why you don't have
any more recently.
And it's just not a good look.
It doesn't make a whole lot ofsense for the purpose of the
resume, right?
I mean, you're not the sameperson you were 15 years ago.
(24:23):
I'm trying to find out who youare now, what kind of
professional experience oracademic experience you have
lately.
So that's a bad idea all around.
So ask the person, do it inwriting, call them whatever
you're more comfortable with,depending on the nature of your
relationship, and then, if theyagree, send them your resume.
(24:44):
Make sure that they know whatyou've said, that you've done,
right, that they're going to beasked to speak to, and don't
expect that.
You know your dates ofemployment.
You know your job titles, youknow the work that you perform.
Don't expect your reference toremember that.
Make it easy for them.
Set yourself up for success.
Send them your resume so theyhave it in front of them if that
(25:06):
call comes.
Ricky Baez (25:07):
Hey, that is such a great point that I don't think
anybody thinks about.
Nobody thinks about that piece.
Yes, you've got.
Make it easy for them.
Send them the job you appliedfor, information on the company
and just and your resume.
Once they have that on there,let me tell you that, recruiter,
if I hear that somebodymentions everything almost to
(25:28):
the tee, right, okay, thisperson prepared, they know what
they're doing.
Got a glow and review bothstart Absolutely.
Pete Newsome (25:35):
And here's what I prefer when I'm asked to give a
reference.
It's Pete, would you be willingfirst, right, yeah, I
understand.
If not, please let me know.
Great, so give the person anout, ask them to confirm, and
then, once I agree, then here'sthe information, here's what I
shared with them and then here'swho you can expect a call from.
So give that information aswell.
(25:56):
So the person's on the lookoutfor it.
I don't typically.
I don't typically.
I never answer calls fromunidentified numbers.
It's not something I do.
It's never someone offeringanything that I want.
It turns out right.
So if I, but if I know, hey,this person's maybe calling you
from Atlanta or Detroit, I'lllook for those phone calls
(26:16):
because if I agree to be areference, I need to make good
on that and try to help out theindividual who I agreed to help.
So, but otherwise I could missthat call and that, yeah, that
would that wouldn't.
No one wins in that scenario.
Ricky Baez (26:31):
Pete, I'll tell you this if I agreed to be
somebody's reference and theysend me all this information
that you just said to set me upfor success, when the hiring
authority calls me to check, I'mlike, look, I don't know what
you're about to ask, but just onhow this person prepared me for
this, you should hire them forthat.
Well, they thought about it.
They gave me all theinformation.
(26:53):
I know all about you, I knowall about the org.
I mean, don't go that route.
You know what I mean.
Right, but it says on who youare as a person, who you are as
an employee.
When you set everybody up forsuccess and that tells me the
hiring authority, I'm like, okay, this is exactly how they're
gonna treat every issue.
Coming on board, another goldstar.
Pete Newsome (27:13):
Absolutely, and it's all about preparation right
.
The more you do just like acover letter, just like going
above and beyond.
If don't be like every othercandidate, do the most you can
do to give yourself the bestchance for success.
And yes, I worked in the coverletter comment for you.
Ricky Baez (27:32):
I was waiting for it , but, pete, something else.
Hit me something else.
Hit me something you saidearlier, because if you didn't
have the work experience, so yourely on your friends and family
.
What do you say if somebodyused their mother as a reference
?
Pete Newsome (27:48):
No.
Ricky Baez (27:50):
Right you say no.
Pete Newsome (27:51):
Absolutely not right, no, that's silly.
Ricky Baez (27:53):
Because obviously she's gonna give a glowing
review.
If she doesn't, you got biggerissues than not taking this job.
Pete Newsome (27:58):
Yeah, and so there's a question this is one
of the things we wanna doaddress on this show today is,
if you don't have a reference,that's why we or if you don't
think you have a reference togive, you probably do.
Right, it's tough if youhaven't built rapport with any
professor, teacher, anyone atyour high school.
If you're looking for a job ata high school or college and you
(28:23):
don't have any work experience,that's gonna be tough, right, I
mean it will be if you have noone to give.
So hopefully anyone listeninghas built a relationship
somewhere with someone.
But when all else fails this isCanada, so I will tell you this
.
I kind of alluded to it alittle bit ago with the story
about a recent candidate in mystaffing world that had a short
(28:45):
stint and didn't want to givethe reference.
Be open and honest.
If you have been a hermit andyou have it, going out in the
world and built rapport andinvolved in things, be upfront
about that and say listen, thisis this is gonna be a hurdle for
me.
Help, help me figure out how toovercome it.
The more open you are as acandidate, the more transparent
(29:07):
you are about those things, themore accommodating recruiters
and hiring managers will be that.
That's been my experience forthe many years I've done this
and the thousands of jobs I'vebeen involved with people
getting the more open and honest, even if it's bad news, that
tells me who you are and listen.
If, if someone is only going totell me that the best news,
(29:32):
then that's not who I trust.
Right, I trust someone.
I will trust those who arewilling to share the bad news,
to put it out front.
Then that's always right.
Bad news early is good news.
Big believer in that.
I learned that from you so tellyou, say it before you're asked.
Ricky Baez (29:47):
Yeah.
So let me ask you this thenbecause you, you send out all
the requests, right?
You prepared everybody.
Everything went well.
Right now, these are people,the references you asked to,
taking time out of their day gotto do this for you, taking time
out of their busy schedulebecause they're not being paid
for this.
Send out a thank, you know.
Send a thank you afterwards,right?
(30:09):
Thank you for being a reference.
And flowers edible arrangements.
Pete Newsome (30:13):
You love the flowers you know you love the
flowers, you love sittingflowers.
Ricky Baez (30:17):
People respond well to that.
Pete Newsome (30:19):
I'm sure, I'm sure they do.
That's.
That's a lot right, I mean.
But yes, 100%, send a thank younote, at the very least an
email, at the very least in ahandwritten note.
You know I love that.
But yeah, and if you're, if youwant to send something, a care
package of some sort, that istruly above and beyond maybe
only do that after you get thejob right, because if you're on
(30:41):
the market, I'm I don't feelpressure to do that.
It's a wonderful gesture, butif that reference was a big
factor in you getting your dreamjob, I love that idea, ricky
send send them something becausethat glowing reference.
Ricky Baez (30:59):
Let's go to Denny's 100% go to Denny's.
Pete Newsome (31:02):
okay, maybe stick with the flowers.
Ricky Baez (31:07):
Yeah, true, I like that.
So so, pete, look, what if Idon't have a reference at all?
Can I get hired without one?
Pete Newsome (31:14):
potentially, but sometimes not right.
I mean, it depends on whatyou're being hired for.
So if you are A 10 year careerprofessional and you have jobs
on your resume and you say Idon't have any references, now
again company like mine is isfor corners, going to ask who
you reported to.
I'm not going to ask you forreference, is that what I'm
(31:36):
going to ask you report to?
And so if you say I don't know,I don't remember, I'm not going
to give you that information,those are huge red flags.
But we know a lot of companiesdon't ask, so they skip over
that process or they letcandidates get away with being
elusive and not answering.
(31:57):
So yes, of course you can get ajob, but you'll be excluded from
certain jobs.
If you're young, it's notnearly as big of a deal, right?
I mean that just should gowithout saying.
But if, but, but still, if youhave, if you list activities,
for example, on your resume, orif you went to through a
(32:23):
master's program or a smallcollege and you, you, you list
on your resume the involvementyou had at those schools and you
can't give names of peopleinvolved in those activities,
that's also a red flag.
So I think, hopefully, whatwe've shared today is you have
references, whether you realizeit or not, depending on your
(32:45):
stage, the stage in your career.
But yeah, if you're not willingto give any of those, that's
going to send a tough message tothose who are recruiting.
So what if I have fourreferences?
I've gone through the process.
Ricky Baez (32:53):
I've gone my list, my pros and cons for each one.
I submit them.
They none of them, respond tothe higher manager.
Pete Newsome (33:06):
So that's, that's happens.
You know what our recruitersare checking references and what
we'll ask to do is have thecandidate follow up with those
people and say, hey, I've calledRicky a few times for you.
He's not responsive.
Can you help me get a hold ofhim?
I mean, but if you've askedRicky to be your five S for that
(33:28):
reference up front and done itthe way we're recommending, and
that probably won't happen and Ithink it happens more often in
a scenario where the referencesare asked the way we we like to
ask, which is not who thecandidate may have had a list of
.
So those are a little.
These are kind of opposingthings, right?
What I'm recommendingcandidates to is different than
what I would recommend employersdo.
That's, that's reality.
(33:52):
So you know that it happensright and but every company
handles those things differently.
Hey, you gave me the references.
They're not responsive.
Good enough, I mean, does thathappens a lot more than most
people would probably assume?
And now?
So let's say let's take itfurther.
Ricky Baez (34:10):
Let's say they do respond and they gave not a
glowing reference, right, theywent the opposite way.
I mean, how do you follow upback with that reference?
So should you follow up backwith them at all?
Who is the candidate?
Yeah, as a candidate, and yourreference gave you the opposite.
The problem is the kids.
The kids probably not going toknow, right?
Pete Newsome (34:29):
I mean the recruiters not going to go back
and say, well, I would havehired you, but I don't know.
I don't know how a recruiterwould handle that personally,
but they wouldn't give detail.
Ricky Baez (34:37):
Right, I mean, look, if I'm a recruiter, depending
on the situation.
Pete Newsome (34:40):
I may want to give that candidate indication that
you should consider you givingdifferent references next time,
but I'm not going to yeah, I'mnot going to do that.
I'm not going to give thatreference.
I'm not going to give thatreference.
I'm not going to give thatreference, yeah, yeah, I'm not
(35:03):
going to do anything.
That's a breach of confidenceif I, if someone's willing to
share that someone, was it agreat employee?
So that's a tough, that's atough one to a tough road to go
down.
But once again, if you are acandidate and you ask up front
are you willing to be areference, you know, are you
comfortable with that?
And someone said you, in almostevery case, if someone is not
(35:25):
going to be favorable, they'lltell you don't know, I'm not
willing to do it.
So it doesn't happen that oftenthat way, all right.
Well, I mean it's.
Ricky Baez (35:35):
These are things to to think about, because I know a
candidate is really worriedabout the interview, really
worried about what to say, andthen sometimes the reference
piece is oh, got three names,boom, send that over and folks,
it's, it's if.
If you haven't gotten our, ourpoint from from from this
episode is you've got to investin the time as much as you
(35:56):
invest in time and preparing forthe interview.
This needs to be part of thatpreparation process and make
sure you got the right peoplethat they're going to call Right
it's, it's, it's to.
I mean, to me, that's just asimportant as everything else.
Pete Newsome (36:08):
It is, and that's a perfect way to close.
So, yes, thank you very much.
That's.
I think we covered it all.
Ricky Baez (36:15):
I think we did, man, I, I, I think we did.
I would love to hear whatpeople think you.
You know what I would love tohear, pete, I want to hear some
horror stories Right, becauseit's good to hear those things
right and then dissect them.
So let's put the call out there.
If anybody's out there had ahorror story with with
references like maybe theydidn't turn out the way you
(36:37):
thought they were, let us know.
Let us know, zengig, what's theaddress?
Again, question questions.
Pete Newsome (36:44):
questions at zengigcom.
Ricky Baez (36:45):
Got it.
Questions and zengigcom.
Send it to the questions atzengigcom, let us know.
Obviously we're not going touse your name, but I know
there's horror stories out there.
Send them in so we can, youknow, just dissect them and then
help everybody else.
Pete Newsome (36:59):
All right, if we get enough, we'll do that next
show.
Absolutely, we're in, we're in,all right.
Well, thank you for listening,rick.
You think it was always.
Drive safe.
Have a great rest of your dayand we'll we'll talk very soon.
Have a good one, folks.
Ricky Baez (37:10):
Have an awesome weekend.
Pete Newsome (37:11):
Good night.
You're listening to the Finding Career Zen
Podcast.
I'm Pete Newsome and I'm joinedagain today by Ricky Baez.
Ricky, how are you?
Ricky Baez (00:07):
I am doing fantastic , pete, it's Friday, we're in
Florida, we can't complain.
Pete Newsome (00:12):
No, well, you can, but no one's going to care,
that we know right.
Ricky Baez (00:16):
No one's going to care.
You're right.
Pete Newsome (00:17):
So we won't complain, We'll choose not to,
and instead we'll talk aboutsomething that's relevant to our
listeners, which is thereference process and a pretty
important thing in the entireinterview process necessary to
get a job.
In a lot of cases most cases, Iwould say, but it's not always
the easiest part to handle A lotof people don't know who to use
(00:39):
as a reference, how to go aboutasking someone to be a
reference, so that's what we'rehere to talk about today.
Ricky Baez (00:45):
Absolutely.
And folks references it's to mePete references is no different
than you looking for a plumberand you're asking for your
friends and neighbors on who's agreat plumber.
That's exactly what referencesdo.
If you're looking for a job,right, it's just somebody other
than yourself talking up yourskill set and talking up who you
(01:05):
are as a person.
Pete Newsome (01:06):
Well, it's saying, hey, I may want to hire this
plumber, right, but I want tofind out whether this person is
actually as good as they saythey are.
So that's what I think of as areference Someone who can attest
to your skills, your background, your ability, your character
and effectively giveconfirmation that you are who
(01:29):
you claim to be right, who yourresume says you are, who you
appear to be, through theinterview process.
So it's a really important stepand, as a long-time staffing
company owner, it's something Itake very seriously I would say
more seriously than most,because our reputation is on the
line.
When we recruit a candidate andsubmit that candidate for
consideration to one of ourclients, it is our line of
(01:53):
defense.
I'll say that's necessary andI'll tell you there's nothing
worse than getting a phone callto say did you check that
person's reference?
Because you know it's not good,whatever would come next, and I
would always want to be able tosay definitively yes, I did so.
I think it's a really importantpart of the process.
Now, in your entire HR career,what would you say?
(02:16):
I mean, do you think mostcompanies take it seriously?
I don't think they do.
I think some do, but most don't.
Ricky Baez (02:22):
The only companies that take it seriously are the
ones who got burned by not doingit right.
It's like we're in a seatbelt,right?
Oh, why do I need this?
Why do I need this?
Until you get into a fenderbender and it could have been
worse if you didn't have yourseatbelt on you quickly realize
the value of it right.
Same thing here.
Actually, I think I was readinga story that I used from my
(02:43):
class about a year ago.
It was a big retailorganization that hired somebody
, didn't check any references,and this person turned out to be
a violent criminal, right, thatjust wasn't really arrested for
it.
But what ended up happening isthat they did something that got
the organization in trouble.
And then you get that question.
(03:04):
The question is did you checkthis person's?
Pete Newsome (03:06):
Or did you run their background right?
I mean that Absolutely, andthose stories do happen a lot.
That's a little bit of adifferent topic, but still
relevant.
Is this person going to be agood hire?
We know, or at least I stronglybelieve, that you really don't
know what someone's like tillyou live with them, right, and
(03:28):
they can interview.
Well, they can look great.
On paper it seems like a matchmade in heaven, but when you
actually have someone in theseat and you have to see each
other day to day, you get toknow what someone's really like,
just like in any relationship.
So this is that extra layer,right.
A criminal history.
Is this person a felon?
Well, that's relevant to knowfor a lot of jobs, right.
(03:51):
But how well did this personperform in the past?
And your seatbelt analogy is areally good one, because when I
was I'm so old, ricky, that youused to have drivers at in
school where you learned todrive that way and I remember a
guest came in one day.
It was somebody who worked forthe police department
investigator and he said youknow, he was a bunch of 15 year
olds, right, who probablyweren't inclined to wear
(04:13):
seatbelts habitually.
And he said I've neverunbuckled a dead body, and he
said I've dealt with a lot ofdead bodies and it just
resonated with me, so I got theright message at a young age.
And so that is a really goodanalogy, because when I think of
(04:33):
references, it's easy to cutcorners right as an employer,
but you shouldn't and so forcandidates who are really
speaking to today, be preparedfor right and so a lot of people
.
If you're young in your careerespecially, you don't think you
have anyone to give as areference, or you don't know who
you should give as a reference.
That's who I really want tofocus on today.
(04:54):
Well, let the employers worryabout themselves separately,
right, or hire a really goodstaffing company who will do it
for you, that's that optionexists but let's start with that
.
So we've already said that areference is someone who can
attest to who you are, whatyou've done, what you give your
(05:14):
prospective employer someindication of what you'll be
like if they hire you.
But if you don't have any workhistory, where do you start?
Right, where do you start?
Well, let's first break downthe different kinds of
references.
Right, there's professional ifyou don't have a professional
history, great, well, we'll getto that later.
Academic if you're young, youhave academic history in terms
(05:37):
of professors, teachers, rightyou.
And then you have characterreferences, coaches, people from
your community, neighborsyou've worked with.
So let's kind of talk aboutthose in detail.
You up for that?
I'm up for it well, let's startat the, the character references
.
Now I think a lot of theyounger you are, the more
(05:57):
relevant that is because you'renot going to have the
professional history.
So if you're a job seeker andyou don't have those those
professional references to go toin a lot of us do after been
the workforce for a while thenyou really start.
You need to start thinkingabout who could be that
character reference for you.
Where do you recommend someone?
Begin that?
Ricky Baez (06:18):
so I like how you said where do you start?
Right, because the two kidsjust pick out a name of people
you know.
You get to be really strategicabout it.
So you get a sit down andfigure out who will paint you in
the best light and what you'relooking to do, right, see.
So, again, character reference.
You can pick a sports coach, acommunity leader, a neighbor,
(06:38):
exactly how you said.
But I mean not all of thosepeople.
Unless you, you walk a water,not all of those people view you
in the same light.
So you might want to make a listbased on what you're looking to
do.
Who is going to speak for theskill set that this employer is
looking for, and make out that.
Listen, those are the peoplewho you should select as a
(06:59):
character reference.
Now, don't just blindly throwthe their name out there.
Why should figure out who youwant to select?
Give them a call and let themknow, ask them first.
Can I use you as a reference?
Here is what I'm trying to do,here is what I applied for.
Is this something you'll beable to do for me?
Right, and then it's.
(07:19):
It's.
You really have to be, butmethodical about it, right,
because you can't just pickanybody, and then they'll say
anything about you that mightcome back and buy you in the but
later on so let's look, putthat aside for the moment.
Pete Newsome (07:32):
So I do want to drill into how to approach
someone, when to approachsomeone and so, but you're a
hundred percent on point withthat.
It's a really important thingto bring up.
But the the first thing yousaid to come attention was
planning.
It's not something you want todo on the fly, but it's
something that job seekersrarely do.
On the front end of theirsearch they're thinking about
(07:54):
their resume, they're thinkingabout how to find jobs, how to
you get interviews.
No one's really thinking aboutthe reference part.
But that's okay and that'snormal.
So when you get there, take thetime to play, make a list, just
like you said.
It's easy again if you're inthe been in the professional
world for a long time, becausemost organizations who are
(08:17):
considering you for a job aregoing to want your professional
references and not really getinto the character references.
So you, the younger you are,the more relevant that is.
So make that list and and startoff and then consider, like you
said, why one person would beappropriate for one scenario, a
different person for another.
Make as long a list as you canand then that gives you the best
(08:38):
options to choose from when thetime comes.
Next group is your academic.
Now, a lot depending on whereyou went to school, right.
How, how well you did as astudent, right?
I didn't probably have a longlist of academic references.
Truth be told, when I wascoming out of school that would
not have been my strong suit andthat's okay, right, but but
(09:02):
depending on who you are let'ssay you're an introvert who
doesn't have a lot of characterreferences.
You weren't involved in clubsand activities and teams and and
out and about in the community.
That's okay.
Hopefully you were involvedacademically and you have people
to go to, and I think the samelogic applies.
So rights make a list.
(09:23):
Who do you think should be onthat list for academic
references?
Ricky Baez (09:26):
so it's a professor.
I love that idea.
But, just like the characterreference, make a list right,
because you don't know how aprofessor perceive you.
Now, every air on I can't seeevery, almost every student has
one professor, one teacher whothey resonated with, right and
and and I remember fourth grade,mrs Anderson.
(09:49):
She taught me how to writescript.
Nobody a cursive, nobody doesthat, he put right.
Obviously that's that's a longtime ago, but that is a teacher
that many moons later I stillremember.
So in college.
There has to be a professorthat you, that you resonated
with and you've had that reportwith.
That's the professor that youneed to connect.
They will paint you into thatbest light.
(10:09):
If you got a professor who, whokind of like through the book
at you and you kind of had roughpatches with, yeah, you may not
want to pick that person, or aclassmate or a lab instructor,
depending what you did somebodywho, who is an, who has
experienced the output of yourwork, that can articulate that
in a way that will get you hiredright.
(10:30):
You want the person to say, wow, this, this, I don't know what
happened in class there, butthey love this person.
We need to have this person onboard.
So that's where I would start.
What about you?
Pete Newsome (10:40):
well, I agree with everything you said, and and is
someone who's checked a lot ofreferences over the years.
There's nothing worse, Really.
Do you get flat out badreferences?
It doesn't happen.
Very frequently People areafraid to do that number one,
right?
I mean, no one really likes todo that.
Candidates are, for obviousreasons, very hesitant to give
(11:03):
the names and contactinformation of people who are
not going to be favorablereferences, so that's not
surprising.
But it's the ones who don'thave anything to say at all.
Those are the ones that botherme as a recruiter when I'm
considering a candidate.
So you made the point someonewho can really speak to what you
did and what you're all about.
The ones that can't.
(11:24):
It's odd.
It's like why did you give thisperson as reference?
They seem to barely know you.
Ricky Baez (11:30):
Can I see something?
Pete Newsome (11:30):
in that.
Ricky Baez (11:31):
Rick, we're from the opposite end real quick.
So I've gotten those.
I've gotten a reference thatthey did not do a good job in
giving me what I needed aboutthis person to give that person
to the next step.
Now I start thinking two thingsfrom the employer's perspective
what kind of person is this?
And the judgment of this person.
You picked this person to paintyou into the best light and
(11:54):
this is what they gave.
Now your judgment is inquestion, so you've got to do
your homework, because that'show it looks like from my
perspective, right On my end,and I'm assuming it does to you
as well right, it does Well.
Pete Newsome (12:05):
And so let's move on to the professional
references, and because I wantto get into who you should ask
and how and why a little morespecifically.
But professional references aredifferent to me, so I'll just
give everyone a heads up on thisthat we've talked a lot about
how you should depart.
When you, when you put a notice, you should do it respectfully,
(12:26):
professionally, give propernotice by default two weeks and
the reason for that is there's avery good chance of people who
you worked for are going to becalled as a reference at some
point in your future.
Maybe not immediately, but thisis where it makes a lot of
sense and it's necessary to lookup longer term.
And so that's hard to do.
It's really hard to do whenyou're, when you're, when you're
(12:48):
upset, when you're mad or angry, you just want to get out.
And once you make a decision toleave, I mean, let's be honest,
we all know this feeling right,every day seems like torture.
Well, you're not doing it forthe benefit of your employer
you're soon to be formeremployer you're doing it for
your benefit and, hopefully, thebenefit of the people you like
and care about who you workedwith.
(13:08):
I mean, that's, that's great,that's noble, but you're really
doing it for yourself and, aboveall else, because those people
are going to be necessary inyour life at some point.
And I'll tell you why I saythat.
One of the commitments my staffand company for corner resources
has made from day one is thatwe will check professional
(13:28):
references for our clients whoexpect that of us.
And those professionalreferences are not a buddy.
They're not someone you went tolunch with every day, who
worked at a different department.
It's not the person who got youthe job, who, who you know
doesn't work there anymore, anold college roommate.
It's not that we specificallywant to speak to your former
(13:49):
supervisors, the people who youreported to, and we don't say,
hey, ricky, give me a reference.
We say, who did you report toat ABC company?
Now, that's the reference wewant, it's the reference we need
.
It may not be the reference youwant to give, right?
(14:09):
So that is on you as acandidate, as a, as an employee
who may have to give thatreference at some point.
And we're not the only ones whodo that, right.
I mean, I would say that's asmart thing to do.
That's why we've had it inplace for so long.
So Just know that how you leaveis how you'll be thought of,
(14:29):
right, that'll be the the, the,that parting.
You know thought stays forever,so leave in the best possible
light.
That's my soapbox moment.
I always need one, I think.
Right, that's it for today.
Ricky Baez (14:39):
I mean that that that's a good point because
you're right.
You know, when you put in yournotice and you decide to leave
right, your rationale, yourpoint of view, change to to some
people, because I've seen somepeople that they work to the
bitter and I'm talking about tothe bitter and as if they've
never put in those two weeknotice.
And that is the employee youreally don't want to lose, right
, cause they do an amazing job.
(15:01):
But that's a really good pointthat people don't think about.
As soon as you put in that twoweek notice, they're going to
want to reference from thepeople that you put in the two
week notice too.
And I don't care how longyou've been with the
organization two weeks, twoyears, 20 years, 30 years you
will be judged by those last 14days and how you leave Perfect
way to put it.
Pete Newsome (15:21):
Perfect and the, and as, again, someone who has
checked a lot of references, ifI'm checking one for you and
they say, boy, do we miss Ricky,that's music to my ears as a
recruiter.
Right, oh, he did everything.
Right, because, even if you,even if you screwed up a lot
along the way to your point, ifyou, if you leave, well, they're
(15:42):
going to, they're going tothink highly of you and they're
going to want to help you inreturn, right Versus the
opposite.
So proceed with caution there.
You can try to give people whomentors and coworkers and all
that, and maybe you should,right, if I'm being completely
transparent, giving advice tocandidates, give the reference
(16:04):
who's going to put you in thebest light, someone who's going
to be honest, of course, right,not not make up things, say you
did things you didn't do, butsomeone who you feel very
confident will be favorable ifcalled upon.
Right, that's, I mean, that'sjust being smart, it is.
Ricky Baez (16:21):
And and and look it's, it's.
There's a lot of different waysyou can go.
You can go with a manager.
You can go with a coworker, amentor.
If you go with a manager, letme tell you, folks, make sure
you talk to that manager.
And again it's.
I think we're beating, we'redoing it?
Pete Newsome (16:37):
Yep, that's, that's what we do.
Ricky Baez (16:39):
To death.
We are right.
Just make sure that that they,they, they really, really focus
on it, because if you've hadsome rough patches with your
manager, don't use them.
So, pete, now let me ask you aquestion what if you are having
some rough patches with yourmanager and your, your?
Your new company wants areference from your current
supervisor.
Pete Newsome (17:00):
Yeah, that's a.
That's a reality.
And I'll tell you, it just cameup with.
Someone on my team just in thepast week was saying that there
was a, a candidate who said Idid not leave on good terms and
it was a short stent, you couldsee it.
It kind of stuck out on theresume.
I just happened to be lookingat the resume and talking about
this candidate and asking why,you know, did we have that
(17:24):
reference?
And they, they said they didn'twant to give that reference.
It wasn't a good situation.
They left on bad terms.
They'd give it if they neededto, but it was going to be bad.
Now I appreciate that, right,and I don't remember I don't
know if they got into detailabout what actually happened
with the recruiter, but thecandidate didn't hide from it
either, and and that's okay, weall have bad experiences.
(17:45):
I mean, I can think of someoneI reported to in the past who I
can almost guarantee would notspeak very highly of me in many
regards.
I we did, we were, did not mesh.
We'll say it was someone Iinherited as a manager.
This is a long, long time ago,but I still feel the same way
about that situation.
Right, I wouldn't say favorablethings either, so that, but,
(18:09):
but you know what now that's,that's on me, because I'm the
employee who needed, could haveneeded, to rely on that, and I
was the person, and I've toldthe story in the past how it was
a learning opportunity for mebecause I didn't realize job
number one is to make sure, ifI'm an employee somewhere, that
my manager's happy with myperformance.
(18:31):
I wasn't in that mindset backthen.
I was a lot younger.
I thought I knew better.
Maybe I did know better, didn'tmatter, right, I wasn't in
charge.
So we'll move on from that.
But that's a tough one and itcomes up, so just be conscious
of it, and that's why we'retalking about this today.
So you, you could say, well, Imay not be able to stand the way
that person looks or the soundof their voice, but I have to
(18:53):
suck it up and smile until I'mout and leave in the best
possible way, or it's going tofollow you.
Ricky Baez (18:59):
That's right.
That's right, and, and, and,yeah, it's, it's.
You hit the nail right of thehead there.
Just make sure that you suck itup, and it because the end goal
is going to be to make surethat you land on your feet
wherever it is that you go.
That's it.
Pete Newsome (19:12):
So now we, we know who you, who you should ask,
how do you ask them, when do youask them?
We talked about making a list.
You should make as long a listas you can.
It won't take that long.
Go, go through your workhistory, go through your
contacts, put those peopletogether Again professional,
academic character referencesthat's who you want to target
and rank them Right.
(19:34):
You might want to put themsituationally because, depending
on your situation, on your jobsearch, how long it lasts, how
many companies you potentiallyinterview with you, may need to
give references more than once,and that's something to be very
conscious of.
You don't want to go to thesame person over and over and
over, right, don't you agree?
Ricky Baez (19:56):
No, I agree, it's I.
I pause because I'm like thatmakes sense.
That definitely makes sense.
You want a variety of people togive a variety of different
points of view, so I neverthought of it that way, to be
honest.
Pete Newsome (20:09):
Yeah, I mean, it's just it.
Well, if you go through a longenough interview process, you're
going to encounter it.
Ricky Baez (20:18):
Oh yeah, so no, no, no, I get it.
Look, and, and you willencounter that.
But, guys, everybody listening,at the end of the day, you've
got to be relatable ineverything you do.
You have to be relatable.
People have to like you.
Right, the people who do notlike you are not going to, are
not going to give you a glowingreference.
(20:38):
So you know, as you need towork just as hard, you need to
work just as hard at making sureyou provide the right
references and as you do at yourown personal how you come
across to people, right,wouldn't you agree?
Wouldn't you need to work onyour personal skills just to
make sure, at the very least,they give you a glowing review?
Pete Newsome (20:58):
Yeah, so that's yeah.
So we want to approach someonein advance.
So make your list right andthen and then reach out to these
people and, and you know, ifyou were on my list, ricky, I
would say I'd either send you amessage because you don't want
to put someone too much on thespot, you don't want to make it
awkward.
So I would recommend in manycases sending a quick message
via email and say hey, ricky,looking, I'm on the job market
(21:22):
right now.
I'm actively interviewing.
Would you be willing to?
If you, would you be a K-FileList, us professional reference?
If asked, right, I want to giveyou the opportunity to say no,
and you may, you may have areason to.
You may say and this is hard,right, I mean you may say, sure,
pete, I'd, I'd, I'd love to.
Or you may say my company won'tlet me, right, that happens at
(21:43):
times.
I'm not allowed to.
Or, hey, I'm not sure thatwould be the best approach for
you to take, right, that couldhappen.
But you want to give that persona heads up and then commit to
only giving their name out whenthe job is.
It looks serious.
So you know, let's stop and saydo not put your references on
(22:04):
your resume.
That is unnecessary.
It's and I would say it'sinappropriate sort of I mean
it's not a huge offense, but ifsomeone is generous enough to
say, yes, you can list me as areference, then don't take
advantage of that generosity byputting their contact
information out to the world,and I do mean the world.
(22:27):
When you post your resume onLinkedIn or any of the job
boards, it's potentially seen bycountless recruiters who share
it, and it's just, it's a badidea.
I'm surprised it still happensas much as it does.
It's not a great idea.
People will try to contact yourreferences for all kinds of
(22:49):
reasons that have nothing to dowith you.
That know that above all else.
Ricky Baez (22:54):
Well, from the other side of the fence, when I see
that, when I see the samereference being used over and
over again, I'm like what alucrative job.
I'm sure this person is beingpaid 50 bucks a pop to do these
references right.
But we can see it on the otherside.
Now, Pete, I got to tell yousomething that happened to me
not a couple of years ago.
Somebody did exactly what yousaid.
(23:15):
They sent me an email sayinghey, ricky, I'm looking for this
job, I'm applying for this job,would you mind being a
reference?
I said no, I haven't talked tothis person in 15 years.
I can only speak to what thatperson did up until the last
time we worked together, right.
So I don't know how comfortableI would feel in giving a
(23:37):
reference because I don't knowwhat this person has done in 15
years.
So the point I'm making this ismake sure it's somebody that
you at least converse with, youmeet with on a regular basis or
at least recently.
Don't reach out to people thatyou haven't connected with in
years, because, number one, it'sjust okay, you only want me for
my reference.
(23:57):
Number one and number two, youjust don't know how comfortable
they are in giving informationthat's outdated.
Pete Newsome (24:02):
And from a recruiter's perspective, they're
gonna think it's odd as well,because if you give me a
reference from 15 years ago, I'mgonna wonder why you don't have
any more recently.
And it's just not a good look.
It doesn't make a whole lot ofsense for the purpose of the
resume, right?
I mean, you're not the sameperson you were 15 years ago.
(24:23):
I'm trying to find out who youare now, what kind of
professional experience oracademic experience you have
lately.
So that's a bad idea all around.
So ask the person, do it inwriting, call them whatever
you're more comfortable with,depending on the nature of your
relationship, and then, if theyagree, send them your resume.
(24:44):
Make sure that they know whatyou've said, that you've done,
right, that they're going to beasked to speak to, and don't
expect that.
You know your dates ofemployment.
You know your job titles, youknow the work that you perform.
Don't expect your reference toremember that.
Make it easy for them.
Set yourself up for success.
Send them your resume so theyhave it in front of them if that
(25:06):
call comes.
Ricky Baez (25:07):
Hey, that is such a great point that I don't think
anybody thinks about.
Nobody thinks about that piece.
Yes, you've got.
Make it easy for them.
Send them the job you appliedfor, information on the company
and just and your resume.
Once they have that on there,let me tell you that, recruiter,
if I hear that somebodymentions everything almost to
(25:28):
the tee, right, okay, thisperson prepared, they know what
they're doing.
Got a glow and review bothstart Absolutely.
Pete Newsome (25:35):
And here's what I prefer when I'm asked to give a
reference.
It's Pete, would you be willingfirst, right, yeah, I
understand.
If not, please let me know.
Great, so give the person anout, ask them to confirm, and
then, once I agree, then here'sthe information, here's what I
shared with them and then here'swho you can expect a call from.
So give that information aswell.
(25:56):
So the person's on the lookoutfor it.
I don't typically.
I don't typically.
I never answer calls fromunidentified numbers.
It's not something I do.
It's never someone offeringanything that I want.
It turns out right.
So if I, but if I know, hey,this person's maybe calling you
from Atlanta or Detroit, I'lllook for those phone calls
(26:16):
because if I agree to be areference, I need to make good
on that and try to help out theindividual who I agreed to help.
So, but otherwise I could missthat call and that, yeah, that
would that wouldn't.
No one wins in that scenario.
Ricky Baez (26:31):
Pete, I'll tell you this if I agreed to be
somebody's reference and theysend me all this information
that you just said to set me upfor success, when the hiring
authority calls me to check, I'mlike, look, I don't know what
you're about to ask, but just onhow this person prepared me for
this, you should hire them forthat.
Well, they thought about it.
They gave me all theinformation.
(26:53):
I know all about you, I knowall about the org.
I mean, don't go that route.
You know what I mean.
Right, but it says on who youare as a person, who you are as
an employee.
When you set everybody up forsuccess and that tells me the
hiring authority, I'm like, okay, this is exactly how they're
gonna treat every issue.
Coming on board, another goldstar.
Pete Newsome (27:13):
Absolutely, and it's all about preparation right
.
The more you do just like acover letter, just like going
above and beyond.
If don't be like every othercandidate, do the most you can
do to give yourself the bestchance for success.
And yes, I worked in the coverletter comment for you.
Ricky Baez (27:32):
I was waiting for it , but, pete, something else.
Hit me something else.
Hit me something you saidearlier, because if you didn't
have the work experience, so yourely on your friends and family
.
What do you say if somebodyused their mother as a reference
?
Pete Newsome (27:48):
No.
Ricky Baez (27:50):
Right you say no.
Pete Newsome (27:51):
Absolutely not right, no, that's silly.
Ricky Baez (27:53):
Because obviously she's gonna give a glowing
review.
If she doesn't, you got biggerissues than not taking this job.
Pete Newsome (27:58):
Yeah, and so there's a question this is one
of the things we wanna doaddress on this show today is,
if you don't have a reference,that's why we or if you don't
think you have a reference togive, you probably do.
Right, it's tough if youhaven't built rapport with any
professor, teacher, anyone atyour high school.
If you're looking for a job ata high school or college and you
(28:23):
don't have any work experience,that's gonna be tough, right, I
mean it will be if you have noone to give.
So hopefully anyone listeninghas built a relationship
somewhere with someone.
But when all else fails this isCanada, so I will tell you this
.
I kind of alluded to it alittle bit ago with the story
about a recent candidate in mystaffing world that had a short
(28:45):
stint and didn't want to givethe reference.
Be open and honest.
If you have been a hermit andyou have it, going out in the
world and built rapport andinvolved in things, be upfront
about that and say listen, thisis this is gonna be a hurdle for
me.
Help, help me figure out how toovercome it.
The more open you are as acandidate, the more transparent
(29:07):
you are about those things, themore accommodating recruiters
and hiring managers will be that.
That's been my experience forthe many years I've done this
and the thousands of jobs I'vebeen involved with people
getting the more open and honest, even if it's bad news, that
tells me who you are and listen.
If, if someone is only going totell me that the best news,
(29:32):
then that's not who I trust.
Right, I trust someone.
I will trust those who arewilling to share the bad news,
to put it out front.
Then that's always right.
Bad news early is good news.
Big believer in that.
I learned that from you so tellyou, say it before you're asked.
Ricky Baez (29:47):
Yeah.
So let me ask you this thenbecause you, you send out all
the requests, right?
You prepared everybody.
Everything went well.
Right now, these are people,the references you asked to,
taking time out of their day gotto do this for you, taking time
out of their busy schedulebecause they're not being paid
for this.
Send out a thank, you know.
Send a thank you afterwards,right?
(30:09):
Thank you for being a reference.
And flowers edible arrangements.
Pete Newsome (30:13):
You love the flowers you know you love the
flowers, you love sittingflowers.
Ricky Baez (30:17):
People respond well to that.
Pete Newsome (30:19):
I'm sure, I'm sure they do.
That's.
That's a lot right, I mean.
But yes, 100%, send a thank younote, at the very least an
email, at the very least in ahandwritten note.
You know I love that.
But yeah, and if you're, if youwant to send something, a care
package of some sort, that istruly above and beyond maybe
only do that after you get thejob right, because if you're on
(30:41):
the market, I'm I don't feelpressure to do that.
It's a wonderful gesture, butif that reference was a big
factor in you getting your dreamjob, I love that idea, ricky
send send them something becausethat glowing reference.
Ricky Baez (30:59):
Let's go to Denny's 100% go to Denny's.
Pete Newsome (31:02):
okay, maybe stick with the flowers.
Ricky Baez (31:07):
Yeah, true, I like that.
So so, pete, look, what if Idon't have a reference at all?
Can I get hired without one?
Pete Newsome (31:14):
potentially, but sometimes not right.
I mean, it depends on whatyou're being hired for.
So if you are A 10 year careerprofessional and you have jobs
on your resume and you say Idon't have any references, now
again company like mine is isfor corners, going to ask who
you reported to.
I'm not going to ask you forreference, is that what I'm
(31:36):
going to ask you report to?
And so if you say I don't know,I don't remember, I'm not going
to give you that information,those are huge red flags.
But we know a lot of companiesdon't ask, so they skip over
that process or they letcandidates get away with being
elusive and not answering.
(31:57):
So yes, of course you can get ajob, but you'll be excluded from
certain jobs.
If you're young, it's notnearly as big of a deal, right?
I mean that just should gowithout saying.
But if, but, but still, if youhave, if you list activities,
for example, on your resume, orif you went to through a
(32:23):
master's program or a smallcollege and you, you, you list
on your resume the involvementyou had at those schools and you
can't give names of peopleinvolved in those activities,
that's also a red flag.
So I think, hopefully, whatwe've shared today is you have
references, whether you realizeit or not, depending on your
(32:45):
stage, the stage in your career.
But yeah, if you're not willingto give any of those, that's
going to send a tough message tothose who are recruiting.
So what if I have fourreferences?
I've gone through the process.
Ricky Baez (32:53):
I've gone my list, my pros and cons for each one.
I submit them.
They none of them, respond tothe higher manager.
Pete Newsome (33:06):
So that's, that's happens.
You know what our recruitersare checking references and what
we'll ask to do is have thecandidate follow up with those
people and say, hey, I've calledRicky a few times for you.
He's not responsive.
Can you help me get a hold ofhim?
I mean, but if you've askedRicky to be your five S for that
(33:28):
reference up front and done itthe way we're recommending, and
that probably won't happen and Ithink it happens more often in
a scenario where the referencesare asked the way we we like to
ask, which is not who thecandidate may have had a list of
.
So those are a little.
These are kind of opposingthings, right?
What I'm recommendingcandidates to is different than
what I would recommend employersdo.
That's, that's reality.
(33:52):
So you know that it happensright and but every company
handles those things differently.
Hey, you gave me the references.
They're not responsive.
Good enough, I mean, does thathappens a lot more than most
people would probably assume?
And now?
So let's say let's take itfurther.
Ricky Baez (34:10):
Let's say they do respond and they gave not a
glowing reference, right, theywent the opposite way.
I mean, how do you follow upback with that reference?
So should you follow up backwith them at all?
Who is the candidate?
Yeah, as a candidate, and yourreference gave you the opposite.
The problem is the kids.
The kids probably not going toknow, right?
Pete Newsome (34:29):
I mean the recruiters not going to go back
and say, well, I would havehired you, but I don't know.
I don't know how a recruiterwould handle that personally,
but they wouldn't give detail.
Ricky Baez (34:37):
Right, I mean, look, if I'm a recruiter, depending
on the situation.
Pete Newsome (34:40):
I may want to give that candidate indication that
you should consider you givingdifferent references next time,
but I'm not going to yeah, I'mnot going to do that.
I'm not going to give thatreference.
I'm not going to give thatreference.
I'm not going to give thatreference, yeah, yeah, I'm not
(35:03):
going to do anything.
That's a breach of confidenceif I, if someone's willing to
share that someone, was it agreat employee?
So that's a tough, that's atough one to a tough road to go
down.
But once again, if you are acandidate and you ask up front
are you willing to be areference, you know, are you
comfortable with that?
And someone said you, in almostevery case, if someone is not
(35:25):
going to be favorable, they'lltell you don't know, I'm not
willing to do it.
So it doesn't happen that oftenthat way, all right.
Well, I mean it's.
Ricky Baez (35:35):
These are things to to think about, because I know a
candidate is really worriedabout the interview, really
worried about what to say, andthen sometimes the reference
piece is oh, got three names,boom, send that over and folks,
it's, it's if.
If you haven't gotten our, ourpoint from from from this
episode is you've got to investin the time as much as you
(35:56):
invest in time and preparing forthe interview.
This needs to be part of thatpreparation process and make
sure you got the right peoplethat they're going to call Right
it's, it's, it's to.
I mean, to me, that's just asimportant as everything else.
Pete Newsome (36:08):
It is, and that's a perfect way to close.
So, yes, thank you very much.
That's.
I think we covered it all.
Ricky Baez (36:15):
I think we did, man, I, I, I think we did.
I would love to hear whatpeople think you.
You know what I would love tohear, pete, I want to hear some
horror stories Right, becauseit's good to hear those things
right and then dissect them.
So let's put the call out there.
If anybody's out there had ahorror story with with
references like maybe theydidn't turn out the way you
(36:37):
thought they were, let us know.
Let us know, zengig, what's theaddress?
Again, question questions.
Pete Newsome (36:44):
questions at zengigcom.
Ricky Baez (36:45):
Got it.
Questions and zengigcom.
Send it to the questions atzengigcom, let us know.
Obviously we're not going touse your name, but I know
there's horror stories out there.
Send them in so we can, youknow, just dissect them and then
help everybody else.
Pete Newsome (36:59):
All right, if we get enough, we'll do that next
show.
Absolutely, we're in, we're in,all right.
Well, thank you for listening,rick.
You think it was always.
Drive safe.
Have a great rest of your dayand we'll we'll talk very soon.
Have a good one, folks.
Ricky Baez (37:10):
Have an awesome weekend.
Pete Newsome (37:11):
Good night.
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