July 22, 2025 • 34 mins
After a much-needed summer break, Wes returns with Pierre and Michelle to tackle one of the hardest yet most healing spiritual disciplines: forgiveness. From public scandals to personal betrayals, the trio dives deep into what it means to forgive others, ourselves, and even God. With real-life stories, biblical wisdom, and honest reflection, this episode explores how grace, vulnerability, and perspective can free us from emotional prisons. Whether you're struggling with a recent hurt or carrying years of pain, this conversation invites you to flip the switch and start healing.
Email: findingfaith.losingsleep@gmail.com
Twitter: @FindingFaithPod
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Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_02 (00:01):
It's time to wake up and pray up here again on the
Finding Faith in Losing Sleeppodcast.
Thank you so much for joiningus.
If this is your first timelistening to this podcast, we
thank you so much for listening.
You can go back and download anyof the other episodes and
whatever listening platformyou're listening to the podcast
(00:21):
on.
Or if you've been here for along time, we missed you too.
So we just appreciate you guystuning in again and never giving
up on us.
We have, I am Wes Heasley.
And I have with me today theWilson family, Pierre and
Michelle.
Say hello, Pierre and Michelle.
Hello, Pierre and Michelle.
No, don't.
No, not like that.
SPEAKER_01 (00:42):
What's funny is we both did it.
SPEAKER_00 (00:46):
That's right.
We're ready.
We're ready.
We've been down and out for awhile.
And I'm surprised you rememberthe opening.
Like, there's things I'm tryingto remember myself here.
But we've had some listeners,too.
We've averaged.
Probably about 20 to 30 everyweek.
That's still probably an oldepisode.
So appreciate those who've beenlistening to us, following us
(01:06):
along, diving in.
If you have joined along aswe've been on a little hiatus,
we appreciate you as well.
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_02 (01:12):
Well, here we talk about grace.
We talk about grit andoccasionally the spiritual
insomnia, right?
That's what we talk about here.
We talk about a lot of differenttopics.
And so that's why I said, ifyou're just getting used to us,
Go back and listen to some ofthose old podcasts.
And if you have any commentsabout those, you can send them
in many different directions.
Maybe Pierre remembers wherethose directions are.
SPEAKER_00 (01:34):
There are a few.
We got findingfaith.losingsleepat gmail.com.
We're over on the Twitter slashxmachine at findingfaithpod.
And if you ever scroll throughlike Apple Podcasts, Spotify,
there should be an option withinthere.
I think within the summary tosend us even a text.
You want to send us a text orleave us any feedback on any of
those platforms as well.
(01:55):
And listen,
SPEAKER_02 (01:57):
Michelle, I heard that if they leave a comment,
leave a good review or a badreview.
I don't know if bad reviewscount or not, but it helps the
algorithm.
Whatever an algorithm is, I needto learn what the definition of
an algorithm is.
I just keep saying algorithm,and I really don't know what it
is.
But it helps this show get outinto the algorithm sphere a
(02:17):
little bit more.
SPEAKER_01 (02:18):
That it does.
And I think it helps otherpeople to be able to hear it and
to you know connect with us andso um it's not necessarily for
us it's for other people becauselike we said when we started
this whole thing if we can reachone person and so thank the lord
we've reached at least one so ifwe can multiply that we want to
(02:39):
do that as much as we canbecause we all know we need
people and so we're hoping wecan be those people for others
SPEAKER_02 (02:46):
Definitely.
And by all means, you know,build me up whenever you leave
those comments, just toaggravate Pierre and Michelle a
little bit.
Like, hell, come on, Wes isn'tnothing.
No, no.
He's
SPEAKER_00 (02:56):
probably few in disguise, but that's okay.
SPEAKER_02 (02:59):
Listen, I wouldn't know how to leave a comment if I
had to on those things.
This episode tonight is going tobe about Forgiveness.
We've talked about this a coupleof weeks ago of what the next
episode was going to be, and itwas going to be about
forgiveness.
I'm not sure, Pierre, what madeyou or Michelle, because you
guys sent me a text about thatand said, hey, the next episode
is going to be aboutforgiveness.
(03:20):
So I was kind of curious as towhy that was on the frontal
lobes of your mind.
SPEAKER_01 (03:25):
Well, before he answers you, can I just say that
we should probably ask ourlisteners for some of that since
it's been a while since we'verecorded this?
SPEAKER_02 (03:34):
We're part-time podcasters.
SPEAKER_01 (03:36):
We
SPEAKER_02 (03:38):
try to put out good content for everybody at the not
a convenient time because it,I'm not saying it's not a
convenient time, but, um, Welove doing this.
And sometimes family and lifegets in the way of doing this
and being able to talk togetherlike this and to be able to
record podcasts for thelisteners.
So, yes, we do expect a littlegrace here and there about that.
(04:00):
And we're sorry for the timethat we were off.
But summertime, we have somethings to do.
And I hope you spend time doingthose things as well.
SPEAKER_00 (04:09):
Absolutely.
And the episode really, it wouldhave been a few weeks back.
I think it sparked, you know,through like a men's group, like
a Bible study that I wentthrough and just some
conversations that took placewithin that group.
And kind of as we approachtoday, I feel like it still was
in the forefront.
One big topic that's happeningall over social media, I think
(04:33):
could be a good starting point.
Did you see the, you see theColdplay clip?
At that Coldplay concert?
SPEAKER_02 (04:41):
Who hasn't seen that Coldplay clip?
Yes, I saw that with the guy
SPEAKER_00 (04:45):
and the gal.
So I just even thinking aboutthat.
So obviously it sounded likesome type of extramarital, some
type of affair was potentiallytaking place.
How do you forgive that?
That's forgiveness, right?
So let's look at those two andlet's start with their spouses.
(05:06):
How do you think forgiveness hasworked in those households over
these last couple of days?
SPEAKER_01 (05:13):
Well, first and foremost, it probably hasn't.
At least not yet.
Like, maybe.
I mean, maybe if somebody'sbetter than me, which some
people are, like, maybe theypractice that right away.
But I think, unfortunately, withus being human, oftentimes those
times of forgiveness comefurther down the line when we
(05:37):
have cooler heads and canactually be rational about it
and practice faith.
I'd love to say that we're alljust quick to forgive and do
things the way we're supposedto, but when we've been hurt and
your pride is hurt, it's reallydifficult to especially on, I
(05:59):
mean, you're talking about anational international
potentially level at this point,right?
That's, that's huge.
So I think it take a littlewhile.
SPEAKER_02 (06:10):
C.S.
Lewis said to be a Christianmeans to forgive the inexcusable
because God has forgiven theinexcusable in you.
And, you know, you think aboutall the things that we've done
recently, Hosea, I think it'sHosea, um, I've been listening
to the Bible again this year,and he married a prostitute,
(06:33):
right?
And it was really to have anexample of how many times the
Israelite nation, which we wouldput it as a Christian nation or
Christianity or us as anindividual, cheated on God.
Like a prostitute cannot stayfaithful to her husband and goes
out and gets pregnant by otherpeople and everything.
(06:55):
And it was an example.
to those people becauseeverybody got to see that
relationship.
It was in the forefront, justlike the Coldplay thing.
It was right there for everybodyto see.
And they knew what was going on.
And God kept telling them to goback, go and get your wife, go
and get your wife, even thoughshe was in another man's house.
(07:16):
And that was an example of God'slove for his people that no
matter how many times you go andstray from me, I am gonna still
come back can try to get you.
And that, hey, God's a biggerman than I am, obviously.
But that takes a lot of work.
SPEAKER_00 (07:38):
It does.
It does take work.
So I know Michelle mentionedpride, which I think is a big
piece, a big obstacle for us inhuman form.
But it's tough because you lookat Jesus.
Was he in human form?
SPEAKER_02 (07:52):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (07:54):
I think so, yeah.
So how did he...
overcome.
And even what did he tell us todo in regards to forgive?
I believe it's in Matthew.
He gives us a time, like howmany times we should forgive
someone.
You recall what that time is?
SPEAKER_02 (08:08):
70 times
SPEAKER_00 (08:10):
seven, isn't it?
Yeah.
Yeah.
70 times seven.
And, you know, Michelle justmentioned, like this is one time
potentially with this co-playcouple and it's already
curtains.
It seems like, I believe the CEOis, I don't know if it's
Astronomer or whatever thatcompany was.
I think he lost his job.
So even from his employmentstandpoint, there's no
(08:33):
forgiveness there.
So what do you feel like are theobstacles for us in forgiving
people?
Because you often hear, forgivebut not forget.
SPEAKER_01 (08:43):
And
SPEAKER_00 (08:45):
I've said on that a bit, and I feel like that's
wrong.
Yeah.
And I know you don't want tonecessarily forget the harm that
someone's done to you.
But I also believe if you don'tforget, are you fully capable of
forgiving someone?
SPEAKER_01 (09:03):
Well, first you to forgive, you have to have a
level of vulnerability.
So if you're not someone who canbe vulnerable easily or even if
you can, like that's reallytough because you have to go
beyond yourself to forgive.
say, Hey, what you did, I'm notgoing to allow you to define me
(09:24):
anymore.
Cause really forgiveness isn'tabout the other person.
Truly.
It's not, it's about forgivingyourself because oftentimes it's
our identity.
Like we forgiveness feels likeyou're letting go and you're
saying it's okay for you to hurtme.
And that's, that's really tough.
(09:46):
That's a tough pill to swallow,especially like, I don't know
about everybody else, but forlike me, I was always raised
like kind of, or with the beliefthat once you've broken a trust,
like that's really, reallydifficult to get back.
And so, you know, how do youever trust that person again?
Well, it's, I think it's morewhen, okay, let's go, here's a
(10:11):
good example.
You go to somebody who's beenabused, like maybe physically,
mentally, emotionally abused,whatever it might be, or
somebody who's been in jail.
Why do they go back to that?
They go back to that becauseit's part of their own identity
and they protect it because it'sa reflection of their own
choices and choosing to stay isa choice.
(10:34):
So it takes a, enormous amountof strength to be able to walk
away from that and find youridentity again.
Any type of change is hard.
So we're, I think as humans,we're naturally resistant to
change and forgiveness is achange, whether we look at it
that way or not, like being ableto wrap your brain around that
(10:57):
and fully embrace it and realizethat it's for you and not
necessarily the other person andnot holding yourself to all of
that all the time.
And choosing to move on andbetter yourself and then loving
that person like God loved themis sometimes, depending on the
situation, it feels impossible.
SPEAKER_02 (11:19):
I heard it said that to forgive is to set a prisoner
free.
Yeah.
And then you discover that theprisoner was you.
SPEAKER_01 (11:26):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (11:27):
And I've seen those YouTube videos where people
catch monkeys.
In like the jungle?
I don't know if you guys haveever seen those.
Don't ask me what I was lookingfor, but I found it.
I
SPEAKER_00 (11:38):
haven't seen them.
SPEAKER_02 (11:41):
And they put a bait, like a banana or something like
that, inside the cage, right?
They put it inside the cage.
Well, the monkey's too smart togo inside the cage.
The monkey reaches through thecage and grabs a banana.
And then the people walk up withlike a, I don't know, a blanket
or something like that orwhatever it is, just some big
cloth with a hole in it.
(12:02):
And they walk up to the monkey.
And they just put it over thetop of the monkey because the
monkey refuses to let go of thebanana.
And it has all the freedom inthe world.
The trap didn't catch it.
It caught itself out of thatpride or out of the greed of
maybe not wanting to let go ofthe banana.
But forgiveness is very muchlike that, where we hold on to
(12:24):
it the entire time.
And what we don't realize isthat it is actually trapping us.
What that person has done Yes,it is bad, probably.
I would say it's bad.
But we are doing something worseto ourselves by not letting it
go because we're still harboringthose thoughts and we're
(12:45):
allowing it to maybe dictate ourlives in the future.
True forgiveness.
is going to help us out so much.
Now, I understand what you'resaying, Pierre, about forgetting
something.
And I don't think that we needto forget.
I hope a monkey doesn't getcaught twice.
You know, I hope a monkeydoesn't get caught twice.
But you can't forget what maybesomebody has done, but you don't
(13:07):
necessarily, as what GarthBrooks, the great theologian
said, you can bury the hatchet,but leave the handle sticking
out, right?
UNKNOWN (13:17):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (13:17):
And that's not good in a relationship like a husband
and wife or something.
And you can learn the lessonalong the way, but you don't
want to be able to just go backand grab that handle whenever
you need to or that banana inthe cage because it'll trap you
again.
SPEAKER_01 (13:32):
Well, so let me ask you this.
So do you feel like I...
you look at it maybe fromsomebody who doesn't have a
Christian background, whodoesn't understand forgiveness
maybe as much or hasn't been,hasn't heard it as much, right?
Like why forgiveness isimportant.
Wouldn't you feel like, okay, solet's take this scenario.
(13:55):
He cheated on me once.
Now I forgive him.
Isn't that just a free pass todo it again?
If I'm just going to forgiveyou, where's, where is the
rationale behind that?
Do you see what I'm saying?
SPEAKER_00 (14:07):
I do, but I think, And again, I know we're not
supposed to lean on our ownunderstanding, but I feel like
that's what we're called to do.
I think when you hear Hismercies are new every morning,
we're given a clean slate.
Whether we want to accept thatis one thing, but to me, Christ
(14:28):
going to the cross and dying forour sins, that wiped it clean.
He's not thinking about what wedid in our past.
We're brand new.
So technically, I feel like thatshould be what we're trying to
do here ourselves.
If we're truly going to forgive,we should be giving people a
(14:49):
clean slate.
Yes, there's always going to bethe opportunity for them to do
you wrong again.
We have that ourselves.
We have free will.
Each day, we have a chance tomess up.
But the hope is that we don'tand that we are new.
So I think that would be thehope that we need to give others
(15:11):
when we truly forgive them.
And that's why I say the forgetpart, because I think one of our
obstacles, I can't speak foreverybody.
I'll speak for myself.
One of my obstacles inforgiveness is kind of what
Michelle said, always in theback of my mind, you remember
what happened to you.
And there's that, what if thathappens again?
(15:32):
Whereas if you truly forget ortry to forget what took place, I
think you're more able to togive someone a free slate.
Like, for example, let's saysomething happened.
You get amnesia.
It'd be a lot easier to forgivesomeone if you never knew that
anything happened.
If you don't remember thatsomething took place, it's a lot
(15:55):
easier to forgive in thatsituation, don't you think?
That's a great point, yeah.
I was just going to say, so partof this in our men's group that
came up is one of the men, Iwon't mention her name, had a
daughter a long time ago thatwas raped.
Obviously, the first thoughtwhen that happens to your
(16:20):
daughter is, I'll kill them.
That's the first thing that'sgoing to go through your head
is, I'll kill them.
Some of those thoughts ranthrough this person's head.
I'm going to find this personand do some harm to them.
As time passed, they saw justthe impact of that it had on the
daughter itself to continue tobring up that memory and, you
(16:43):
know, bring up, you know, what'sgoing to happen.
It wasn't let her forget whattook place.
And so in order to kind ofrelease his daughter from what
happened to her, you know, heforgave that person.
And it was interesting, hisdefinition, he gave a definition
of forgiveness for him.
He said, forgiveness isvoluntarily forgiveness
(17:04):
Accepting the consequences ofsomeone else's sin, which I
really sat on.
And when you think about that,that's what took place.
You can look at Coldplay.
That situation, their spouseswould have to voluntarily on
their own accept theconsequences of what their
significant others did.
(17:25):
He had to accept theconsequences of what the guy did
to his daughter.
And I think we have a hard timeaccepting that.
of someone else's sins.
And that's exactly what Jesusdid for all of us.
SPEAKER_02 (17:45):
Me personally.
I don't think that forgivenessmeans that that wife has to stay
in that relationship with theColdplay thing that's going on,
right?
SPEAKER_01 (17:57):
You can still forgive and not be there.
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (18:00):
Yes.
And that...
It's going to depend ondifferent circumstances that was
going on.
And listen, what you said aboutthat man and his daughter and
accepting the consequences forsins, it makes a lot of sense
because you actually, you haveto kind of step out of denial of
(18:22):
what happened, which might getyou past the anger part of
things.
Because like you said, that'd bethe first reaction I had too.
I want to go find this guy andtake care of business myself.
Forget about the police.
Forget about all that stuff.
I'll handle it.
One of the reasons why isbecause I wouldn't want to even
(18:43):
think about the actions thatoccurred.
You know what I mean?
That would help me not have tothink about the actions that
actually occurred.
You have to take on that sin.
You have to take on thosethoughts to be able to put that
stuff behind you.
That's something.
It's hard to imagine goingthrough that.
SPEAKER_01 (19:04):
Well, and then on the flip side, you think about
forgiving yourself, like, forthings that you have done.
And those, for me, sometimesthat's harder than forgiving
someone else.
Like, I, at least in my brain, Igo from I made a mistake to I am
(19:26):
a mistake.
And so then it becomes part ofmy identity.
And that's difficult.
like that's difficult for me toreconcile.
Maybe it's because I'm a womanand everything's attached to
everything in my brain.
Like I don't, maybe men cancompartmentalize it better, but
for me, memories and things areattached to one another.
(19:49):
And so when I failed here, nowI'm a failure everywhere because
it's all attached.
Like it all is connected.
And so I think that's what, atleast for me, makes
self-forgiveness ridiculouslydifficult.
I don't know for you guys.
SPEAKER_02 (20:10):
Pierre, I'm not sure.
I was thinking of a question,Michelle, when you were talking.
SPEAKER_00 (20:21):
It would be tough.
Even in parenthood, there'sthings that I'll lash out or
I've lashed out in the past orI'll say something that I regret
and that sits with me.
about how I handle things.
You sit there and once you havetime to reflect, once you're out
of the situation, you're alwayslike, I could have done that
(20:43):
better.
Then you're kicking yourself andwondering why you did that in
the first place.
I think it's natural to get downon yourself after you've done
something wrong.
Whether you realize you didsomething wrong or not, I think
Forgiving yourself is just anobstacle because I think we're
always harder on ourselves thananyone else.
(21:07):
And, you know, for those thatlike go to counseling or
therapy, oftentimes it startswith you.
Like you go in there and you'rethinking everyone else is the
problem and, you know, they layyou on the couch and, you know,
start opening up and, you know,it's something within you that's
causing it all.
Maybe a memory or a past, youknow, And so it's hard.
(21:30):
And you think about, again,being forgiven.
But can you forgive yourself?
I don't know if you've seen likeTombstone.
You ever seen Tombstone, themovie?
SPEAKER_02 (21:41):
Oh, yeah.
Huckleberry.
SPEAKER_00 (21:42):
Oh, yeah.
So I believe it's Doc Holliday'scharacter, rest in peace, Val
Kilmer.
I don't remember who he'stalking to, but they're talking
about Wyatt Earp once he's likeout for the revenge.
I got those brothers and stuffget killed, etc., Someone asked
Doc Holliday, what's he out forrevenge for?
His response for why it hurtsrevenge was being born.
(22:03):
You think about that with somepeople, that's the case.
They've been a rough life, roughupbringing, and they're just so
upset with life that it's hardto forgive themselves and how
they were treated.
It's hard to forgive theirparents maybe and how they were
treated when they were youngerbecause And honestly, there's
(22:25):
times where I'm sure people havea hard time forgiving God.
Like there's times where, youknow, God gets blamed for
tragedies that happen in ourlives.
And you look at the flip side,we just talked about all the
forgiveness that he gives us,but then it often returned.
Like if something tragic happensor something unexpected, like
people hold onto that.
(22:47):
And even those that maybe nolonger believe in God, there was
maybe a point where they didbelieve in God.
And the reason that they don'tanymore is It's because they
haven't forgiven him forsomething that maybe he didn't
do, something maybe he didn'thave a part of, but they're just
holding on to that, of thecharacter that they believe God
is, that they're unable toforgive not only themselves, but
(23:08):
also God himself.
SPEAKER_01 (23:10):
And lay blame, gives some place to lay blame to when
there's nothing else, maybe.
So what do you guys think about,like, do you think that we
inherit, like, emotional habits?
SPEAKER_02 (23:25):
I think we're, we become accustomed to them and we
get programmed that way becausewe see the emotional habits of
our parents or our siblings orpeople that are close to us.
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (23:36):
I agree.
I think that's the very thing.
And so people, you would arguelike that's how you get your
faith is because you're, you'resurrounded by other people of
faith.
Otherwise you wouldn't havefaith, which I think you can
argue against, but there's,there's definitely things that
you learn from, from your eldersgrowing up.
Like, often talk about the racecars.
(23:56):
Obviously, we're an interracialcouple, but you never see a baby
who's racist.
You never see little kids,unless they've been programmed
or taught to act a certain way,they're always friendly with
everyone up until they're toldnot to be.
I think we do.
We grow up in our own differentcultures, our own backgrounds,
(24:18):
and we're taught differentthings, and we witness different
things, and that's how we justassume that things should be
handled.
All right.
SPEAKER_02 (24:28):
So we did a good job, I think, of telling people
why we should forgive, thethings that we should forgive,
maybe, you know, like that.
If we didn't, if you still havequestions about it, you can
backtrack and listen to all.
We'll say it again at the end ofthe episode of how you can
contact us.
But I want to put someactionable things in here before
(24:49):
the end of the show.
How do you forgive?
Like, what are some steps thatyou can take to forgive?
Because I look at forgivenessand I look at all the things
that could have happened to usand how we can harbor those ill
feelings towards others and notforgive them.
And we can just carry thoseburdens around with us all the
(25:09):
time.
But we got to kind of flip thatswitch.
And yes, things happen to us.
But we can flip a switch kind oflike Joseph did back in the book
of Genesis.
where he says, you intended toharm me, talking to his brothers
who sold him into slavery, toldhis father that he was dead and
that some wild animals must havegot him, took his coat to his
(25:30):
dad, you know, and said, he'sgone.
Sorry.
And then Joseph ended upbecoming one of the most
powerful men in Egypt at thetime.
He told his brothers when he hadan opportunity to put vengeance
on them, he could have just saidthe word and all his brothers
would have been dead.
But instead he told hisbrothers, you intended to harm
(25:52):
me, but God intended it for mygood.
Now that is a forgiveness with aperspective, right?
He was able to say what happenedto me by people.
It happened.
But God put me in a positionhere to feed my family.
God put me in position here tosave, I don't know, millions of
(26:13):
people that were going to starveto death if Joseph didn't have
the wisdom that he had to beable to take care of them all in
the position that he attainedbecause his brother sold him
into slavery.
So that's a tremendousperspective.
So I think in order to do that,I know for me, one of the great
(26:34):
healing things I ever had helpedme forgive a lot of things that
happened to me in my past wasbecoming a leader and sharing my
hurts sharing my habits sharingmy struggles that that came from
not being able to forgive peoplewith others in a leader and i
(26:54):
was in a leadership role andsharing those things with them
and and seeing their lives getturned around because they saw
how i was able to handle it andthen they had like whoa if if
that silly guy wes can do itSurely I can handle those things
too.
And I can put some of thesepractices in play in my life and
(27:15):
overcome some of these things.
So for me, when I look at actionability, one of those things is
to talk about it.
Maybe with a counselor first toget healing a little bit or with
somebody you trust to get somehealing about it.
And then to share that withpeople that are hurting
themselves so that you can walkthem through that grieving
(27:36):
process.
What do you guys think?
SPEAKER_01 (27:39):
I think you hit the nail on the proverbial head
because when, I'm sure Pierrewould agree, we haven't talked
about it for a while, but whenour life group, at least for me,
was healing because not onlywere we sharing our personal
things and we did a thing calledBrooded and that was amazing,
(28:04):
but we heard their things andthen we could see how working on
those things together, how someof those things came to fruition
and it was amazing.
And so I think you're right,Wes, that giving it, not giving
it power, right?
When you talk about it, you'retaking away its power because
(28:26):
you're not just, you know,burying it down deep within you.
But the first thing I would sayis I think that I wrote down
some things earlier when I wastaught, when Pierre told me what
this one was going to be.
And what I wrote was it's thequiet act of choosing peace over
pride, healing over hurting andgrowth over grudges.
(28:48):
And like, I think that humansforgive what wounds us and God
forgives what violates morallaw, but both forms of that,
require the same sacrifice.
So we have to let go of justiceto embrace grace.
SPEAKER_02 (29:07):
Yeah, that's great points.
Great
SPEAKER_00 (29:09):
points.
Pierre?
Yeah, so I think about who arewe most likely to forgive in our
lives?
SPEAKER_01 (29:18):
Probably the people that aren't as close to us.
SPEAKER_00 (29:22):
I think it's our kids, personally.
Well, I see that.
SPEAKER_01 (29:26):
Yeah, I guess that makes sense.
SPEAKER_00 (29:27):
And who are we to God?
SPEAKER_01 (29:29):
It's children.
SPEAKER_00 (29:30):
It's children.
So in order for me to, I think,put that in perspective, I think
we got to see everybody likethat.
As God's children, even as ourkids, our kids are someone, even
if you just want to go earthly,like they're earthly children
and you got to really put thatin perspective.
I saw something that said likeadults are basically just, it's
(29:54):
all eight year olds and adultbodies.
And sometimes I think we actthat way, but.
often look at, you know, some ofthe things my daughter does.
She's a really good kid,actually, and doesn't really get
in trouble often.
But when she does, she's justeasy to forgive because that's
my kid.
You look at the prodigal son inthat story that took place.
(30:17):
His father, you know, ran tohim, forgave him instantly, you
know, served a feast to thepoint where his brother got
jealous because his brotherdidn't have that same
forgiveness as a dad.
So I think the The action totake is to try to take that
parenthood-type figure to peoplein our lives and really see them
(30:39):
as children, if not your ownchildren, then children of God,
and kind of keep that inperspective to forgive as God
forgives His children.
If we're called to lift up ourcross daily, we say that Christ
lives within us, the Holy Spiritis an advocate here to help us,
then we have all the things weneed to give that same type of
(31:02):
forgiveness that God did to thepoint that he not only loved us
as children, again, he gave hisonly son to us for our own sins,
our own consequences.
Abraham was willing to do that.
I think that's the reason wehave this whole promise anyways,
that Abraham didn't take Isaacup on the mountain and wasn't
(31:24):
willing to go through with it,would God have been willing to
give his son?
We don't know.
Thankfully, Abraham did that.
So my action is just kind ofthat second commandment to love
your neighbors like yourself.
I feel like that really jumpsout for a reason to me all the
time.
And in order to forgive, I thinkwe got to take that mentality to
really accept that person infront of us as someone deserving
(31:47):
of forgiveness, just like Godsays they are.
SPEAKER_01 (31:50):
And it's probably not a one-time thing.
Absolutely not.
You have to...
Do that multiple times,depending on what the
transgression was, right?
And like just refusing to bechained to it.
SPEAKER_02 (32:04):
So many good quotes.
I got so many good quotes aboutthis stuff and it applies to
everything we've said.
And we're wrapping up theepisode here now, guys.
Martin Luther King Jr.
said, forgiveness is not anoccasional act.
It is a permanent attitude.
Like you said there, Michelle.
And Nelson Mandela said,resentment is like drinking
poison.
and then hoping it will killyour enemies.
(32:26):
It just doesn't make sense, doesit?
And, of course, Jesus said inMatthew 5, love your enemies and
pray for those who persecuteyou, which is easier said than
done.
Like if somebody puts a bump onyour car trying to park, maybe
you can forgive that person andpray for their parking skills.
I don't know how you do that.
(32:48):
That's just something that maybeyou can do in trying to practice
those things.
Whether it's trying to forgiveyour neighbor or maybe your ex
or yourself, just remember thatgrace is a gift that you give
twice.
You give it to that person andthen you also give it to
yourself.
So that's a wonderful thing tobe able to do.
(33:09):
If you have any other thoughtsabout forgiveness or anything we
said, if you need to correct uson anything or you feel like
you're led to correct us orinput, we'd love to hear your
input, no matter what it is.
Pierre, tell them how to get intouch with us again.
SPEAKER_00 (33:21):
Yeah, findingfaith.losingsleep at
gmail.com, over on atfindingfaithpod on x slash
Twitter, and any otherplatforms.
We're on Apple Podcasts,Spotify, iHeartRadio.
Leave us a comment, leave us areview, or send a text through
our summary of our podcastdescription.
SPEAKER_02 (33:41):
That sounds good.
It sounds like a great plan.
And, you know, just go forth,everybody.
Forgive boldly and sleeppeacefully because bitterness is
a terrible bedtime story.
Thank you all for joining us andyou pray for us and we'll pray
for you.
It's time to wake up and pray up here again on the
Finding Faith in Losing Sleeppodcast.
Thank you so much for joiningus.
If this is your first timelistening to this podcast, we
thank you so much for listening.
You can go back and download anyof the other episodes and
whatever listening platformyou're listening to the podcast
(00:21):
on.
Or if you've been here for along time, we missed you too.
So we just appreciate you guystuning in again and never giving
up on us.
We have, I am Wes Heasley.
And I have with me today theWilson family, Pierre and
Michelle.
Say hello, Pierre and Michelle.
Hello, Pierre and Michelle.
No, don't.
No, not like that.
SPEAKER_01 (00:42):
What's funny is we both did it.
SPEAKER_00 (00:46):
That's right.
We're ready.
We're ready.
We've been down and out for awhile.
And I'm surprised you rememberthe opening.
Like, there's things I'm tryingto remember myself here.
But we've had some listeners,too.
We've averaged.
Probably about 20 to 30 everyweek.
That's still probably an oldepisode.
So appreciate those who've beenlistening to us, following us
(01:06):
along, diving in.
If you have joined along aswe've been on a little hiatus,
we appreciate you as well.
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_02 (01:12):
Well, here we talk about grace.
We talk about grit andoccasionally the spiritual
insomnia, right?
That's what we talk about here.
We talk about a lot of differenttopics.
And so that's why I said, ifyou're just getting used to us,
Go back and listen to some ofthose old podcasts.
And if you have any commentsabout those, you can send them
in many different directions.
Maybe Pierre remembers wherethose directions are.
SPEAKER_00 (01:34):
There are a few.
We got findingfaith.losingsleepat gmail.com.
We're over on the Twitter slashxmachine at findingfaithpod.
And if you ever scroll throughlike Apple Podcasts, Spotify,
there should be an option withinthere.
I think within the summary tosend us even a text.
You want to send us a text orleave us any feedback on any of
those platforms as well.
(01:55):
And listen,
SPEAKER_02 (01:57):
Michelle, I heard that if they leave a comment,
leave a good review or a badreview.
I don't know if bad reviewscount or not, but it helps the
algorithm.
Whatever an algorithm is, I needto learn what the definition of
an algorithm is.
I just keep saying algorithm,and I really don't know what it
is.
But it helps this show get outinto the algorithm sphere a
(02:17):
little bit more.
SPEAKER_01 (02:18):
That it does.
And I think it helps otherpeople to be able to hear it and
to you know connect with us andso um it's not necessarily for
us it's for other people becauselike we said when we started
this whole thing if we can reachone person and so thank the lord
we've reached at least one so ifwe can multiply that we want to
(02:39):
do that as much as we canbecause we all know we need
people and so we're hoping wecan be those people for others
SPEAKER_02 (02:46):
Definitely.
And by all means, you know,build me up whenever you leave
those comments, just toaggravate Pierre and Michelle a
little bit.
Like, hell, come on, Wes isn'tnothing.
No, no.
He's
SPEAKER_00 (02:56):
probably few in disguise, but that's okay.
SPEAKER_02 (02:59):
Listen, I wouldn't know how to leave a comment if I
had to on those things.
This episode tonight is going tobe about Forgiveness.
We've talked about this a coupleof weeks ago of what the next
episode was going to be, and itwas going to be about
forgiveness.
I'm not sure, Pierre, what madeyou or Michelle, because you
guys sent me a text about thatand said, hey, the next episode
is going to be aboutforgiveness.
(03:20):
So I was kind of curious as towhy that was on the frontal
lobes of your mind.
SPEAKER_01 (03:25):
Well, before he answers you, can I just say that
we should probably ask ourlisteners for some of that since
it's been a while since we'verecorded this?
SPEAKER_02 (03:34):
We're part-time podcasters.
SPEAKER_01 (03:36):
We
SPEAKER_02 (03:38):
try to put out good content for everybody at the not
a convenient time because it,I'm not saying it's not a
convenient time, but, um, Welove doing this.
And sometimes family and lifegets in the way of doing this
and being able to talk togetherlike this and to be able to
record podcasts for thelisteners.
So, yes, we do expect a littlegrace here and there about that.
(04:00):
And we're sorry for the timethat we were off.
But summertime, we have somethings to do.
And I hope you spend time doingthose things as well.
SPEAKER_00 (04:09):
Absolutely.
And the episode really, it wouldhave been a few weeks back.
I think it sparked, you know,through like a men's group, like
a Bible study that I wentthrough and just some
conversations that took placewithin that group.
And kind of as we approachtoday, I feel like it still was
in the forefront.
One big topic that's happeningall over social media, I think
(04:33):
could be a good starting point.
Did you see the, you see theColdplay clip?
At that Coldplay concert?
SPEAKER_02 (04:41):
Who hasn't seen that Coldplay clip?
Yes, I saw that with the guy
SPEAKER_00 (04:45):
and the gal.
So I just even thinking aboutthat.
So obviously it sounded likesome type of extramarital, some
type of affair was potentiallytaking place.
How do you forgive that?
That's forgiveness, right?
So let's look at those two andlet's start with their spouses.
(05:06):
How do you think forgiveness hasworked in those households over
these last couple of days?
SPEAKER_01 (05:13):
Well, first and foremost, it probably hasn't.
At least not yet.
Like, maybe.
I mean, maybe if somebody'sbetter than me, which some
people are, like, maybe theypractice that right away.
But I think, unfortunately, withus being human, oftentimes those
times of forgiveness comefurther down the line when we
(05:37):
have cooler heads and canactually be rational about it
and practice faith.
I'd love to say that we're alljust quick to forgive and do
things the way we're supposedto, but when we've been hurt and
your pride is hurt, it's reallydifficult to especially on, I
(05:59):
mean, you're talking about anational international
potentially level at this point,right?
That's, that's huge.
So I think it take a littlewhile.
SPEAKER_02 (06:10):
C.S.
Lewis said to be a Christianmeans to forgive the inexcusable
because God has forgiven theinexcusable in you.
And, you know, you think aboutall the things that we've done
recently, Hosea, I think it'sHosea, um, I've been listening
to the Bible again this year,and he married a prostitute,
(06:33):
right?
And it was really to have anexample of how many times the
Israelite nation, which we wouldput it as a Christian nation or
Christianity or us as anindividual, cheated on God.
Like a prostitute cannot stayfaithful to her husband and goes
out and gets pregnant by otherpeople and everything.
(06:55):
And it was an example.
to those people becauseeverybody got to see that
relationship.
It was in the forefront, justlike the Coldplay thing.
It was right there for everybodyto see.
And they knew what was going on.
And God kept telling them to goback, go and get your wife, go
and get your wife, even thoughshe was in another man's house.
(07:16):
And that was an example of God'slove for his people that no
matter how many times you go andstray from me, I am gonna still
come back can try to get you.
And that, hey, God's a biggerman than I am, obviously.
But that takes a lot of work.
SPEAKER_00 (07:38):
It does.
It does take work.
So I know Michelle mentionedpride, which I think is a big
piece, a big obstacle for us inhuman form.
But it's tough because you lookat Jesus.
Was he in human form?
SPEAKER_02 (07:52):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (07:54):
I think so, yeah.
So how did he...
overcome.
And even what did he tell us todo in regards to forgive?
I believe it's in Matthew.
He gives us a time, like howmany times we should forgive
someone.
You recall what that time is?
SPEAKER_02 (08:08):
70 times
SPEAKER_00 (08:10):
seven, isn't it?
Yeah.
Yeah.
70 times seven.
And, you know, Michelle justmentioned, like this is one time
potentially with this co-playcouple and it's already
curtains.
It seems like, I believe the CEOis, I don't know if it's
Astronomer or whatever thatcompany was.
I think he lost his job.
So even from his employmentstandpoint, there's no
(08:33):
forgiveness there.
So what do you feel like are theobstacles for us in forgiving
people?
Because you often hear, forgivebut not forget.
SPEAKER_01 (08:43):
And
SPEAKER_00 (08:45):
I've said on that a bit, and I feel like that's
wrong.
Yeah.
And I know you don't want tonecessarily forget the harm that
someone's done to you.
But I also believe if you don'tforget, are you fully capable of
forgiving someone?
SPEAKER_01 (09:03):
Well, first you to forgive, you have to have a
level of vulnerability.
So if you're not someone who canbe vulnerable easily or even if
you can, like that's reallytough because you have to go
beyond yourself to forgive.
say, Hey, what you did, I'm notgoing to allow you to define me
(09:24):
anymore.
Cause really forgiveness isn'tabout the other person.
Truly.
It's not, it's about forgivingyourself because oftentimes it's
our identity.
Like we forgiveness feels likeyou're letting go and you're
saying it's okay for you to hurtme.
And that's, that's really tough.
(09:46):
That's a tough pill to swallow,especially like, I don't know
about everybody else, but forlike me, I was always raised
like kind of, or with the beliefthat once you've broken a trust,
like that's really, reallydifficult to get back.
And so, you know, how do youever trust that person again?
Well, it's, I think it's morewhen, okay, let's go, here's a
(10:11):
good example.
You go to somebody who's beenabused, like maybe physically,
mentally, emotionally abused,whatever it might be, or
somebody who's been in jail.
Why do they go back to that?
They go back to that becauseit's part of their own identity
and they protect it because it'sa reflection of their own
choices and choosing to stay isa choice.
(10:34):
So it takes a, enormous amountof strength to be able to walk
away from that and find youridentity again.
Any type of change is hard.
So we're, I think as humans,we're naturally resistant to
change and forgiveness is achange, whether we look at it
that way or not, like being ableto wrap your brain around that
(10:57):
and fully embrace it and realizethat it's for you and not
necessarily the other person andnot holding yourself to all of
that all the time.
And choosing to move on andbetter yourself and then loving
that person like God loved themis sometimes, depending on the
situation, it feels impossible.
SPEAKER_02 (11:19):
I heard it said that to forgive is to set a prisoner
free.
Yeah.
And then you discover that theprisoner was you.
SPEAKER_01 (11:26):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (11:27):
And I've seen those YouTube videos where people
catch monkeys.
In like the jungle?
I don't know if you guys haveever seen those.
Don't ask me what I was lookingfor, but I found it.
I
SPEAKER_00 (11:38):
haven't seen them.
SPEAKER_02 (11:41):
And they put a bait, like a banana or something like
that, inside the cage, right?
They put it inside the cage.
Well, the monkey's too smart togo inside the cage.
The monkey reaches through thecage and grabs a banana.
And then the people walk up withlike a, I don't know, a blanket
or something like that orwhatever it is, just some big
cloth with a hole in it.
(12:02):
And they walk up to the monkey.
And they just put it over thetop of the monkey because the
monkey refuses to let go of thebanana.
And it has all the freedom inthe world.
The trap didn't catch it.
It caught itself out of thatpride or out of the greed of
maybe not wanting to let go ofthe banana.
But forgiveness is very muchlike that, where we hold on to
(12:24):
it the entire time.
And what we don't realize isthat it is actually trapping us.
What that person has done Yes,it is bad, probably.
I would say it's bad.
But we are doing something worseto ourselves by not letting it
go because we're still harboringthose thoughts and we're
(12:45):
allowing it to maybe dictate ourlives in the future.
True forgiveness.
is going to help us out so much.
Now, I understand what you'resaying, Pierre, about forgetting
something.
And I don't think that we needto forget.
I hope a monkey doesn't getcaught twice.
You know, I hope a monkeydoesn't get caught twice.
But you can't forget what maybesomebody has done, but you don't
(13:07):
necessarily, as what GarthBrooks, the great theologian
said, you can bury the hatchet,but leave the handle sticking
out, right?
UNKNOWN (13:17):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (13:17):
And that's not good in a relationship like a husband
and wife or something.
And you can learn the lessonalong the way, but you don't
want to be able to just go backand grab that handle whenever
you need to or that banana inthe cage because it'll trap you
again.
SPEAKER_01 (13:32):
Well, so let me ask you this.
So do you feel like I...
you look at it maybe fromsomebody who doesn't have a
Christian background, whodoesn't understand forgiveness
maybe as much or hasn't been,hasn't heard it as much, right?
Like why forgiveness isimportant.
Wouldn't you feel like, okay, solet's take this scenario.
(13:55):
He cheated on me once.
Now I forgive him.
Isn't that just a free pass todo it again?
If I'm just going to forgiveyou, where's, where is the
rationale behind that?
Do you see what I'm saying?
SPEAKER_00 (14:07):
I do, but I think, And again, I know we're not
supposed to lean on our ownunderstanding, but I feel like
that's what we're called to do.
I think when you hear Hismercies are new every morning,
we're given a clean slate.
Whether we want to accept thatis one thing, but to me, Christ
(14:28):
going to the cross and dying forour sins, that wiped it clean.
He's not thinking about what wedid in our past.
We're brand new.
So technically, I feel like thatshould be what we're trying to
do here ourselves.
If we're truly going to forgive,we should be giving people a
(14:49):
clean slate.
Yes, there's always going to bethe opportunity for them to do
you wrong again.
We have that ourselves.
We have free will.
Each day, we have a chance tomess up.
But the hope is that we don'tand that we are new.
So I think that would be thehope that we need to give others
(15:11):
when we truly forgive them.
And that's why I say the forgetpart, because I think one of our
obstacles, I can't speak foreverybody.
I'll speak for myself.
One of my obstacles inforgiveness is kind of what
Michelle said, always in theback of my mind, you remember
what happened to you.
And there's that, what if thathappens again?
(15:32):
Whereas if you truly forget ortry to forget what took place, I
think you're more able to togive someone a free slate.
Like, for example, let's saysomething happened.
You get amnesia.
It'd be a lot easier to forgivesomeone if you never knew that
anything happened.
If you don't remember thatsomething took place, it's a lot
(15:55):
easier to forgive in thatsituation, don't you think?
That's a great point, yeah.
I was just going to say, so partof this in our men's group that
came up is one of the men, Iwon't mention her name, had a
daughter a long time ago thatwas raped.
Obviously, the first thoughtwhen that happens to your
(16:20):
daughter is, I'll kill them.
That's the first thing that'sgoing to go through your head
is, I'll kill them.
Some of those thoughts ranthrough this person's head.
I'm going to find this personand do some harm to them.
As time passed, they saw justthe impact of that it had on the
daughter itself to continue tobring up that memory and, you
(16:43):
know, bring up, you know, what'sgoing to happen.
It wasn't let her forget whattook place.
And so in order to kind ofrelease his daughter from what
happened to her, you know, heforgave that person.
And it was interesting, hisdefinition, he gave a definition
of forgiveness for him.
He said, forgiveness isvoluntarily forgiveness
(17:04):
Accepting the consequences ofsomeone else's sin, which I
really sat on.
And when you think about that,that's what took place.
You can look at Coldplay.
That situation, their spouseswould have to voluntarily on
their own accept theconsequences of what their
significant others did.
(17:25):
He had to accept theconsequences of what the guy did
to his daughter.
And I think we have a hard timeaccepting that.
of someone else's sins.
And that's exactly what Jesusdid for all of us.
SPEAKER_02 (17:45):
Me personally.
I don't think that forgivenessmeans that that wife has to stay
in that relationship with theColdplay thing that's going on,
right?
SPEAKER_01 (17:57):
You can still forgive and not be there.
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (18:00):
Yes.
And that...
It's going to depend ondifferent circumstances that was
going on.
And listen, what you said aboutthat man and his daughter and
accepting the consequences forsins, it makes a lot of sense
because you actually, you haveto kind of step out of denial of
(18:22):
what happened, which might getyou past the anger part of
things.
Because like you said, that'd bethe first reaction I had too.
I want to go find this guy andtake care of business myself.
Forget about the police.
Forget about all that stuff.
I'll handle it.
One of the reasons why isbecause I wouldn't want to even
(18:43):
think about the actions thatoccurred.
You know what I mean?
That would help me not have tothink about the actions that
actually occurred.
You have to take on that sin.
You have to take on thosethoughts to be able to put that
stuff behind you.
That's something.
It's hard to imagine goingthrough that.
SPEAKER_01 (19:04):
Well, and then on the flip side, you think about
forgiving yourself, like, forthings that you have done.
And those, for me, sometimesthat's harder than forgiving
someone else.
Like, I, at least in my brain, Igo from I made a mistake to I am
(19:26):
a mistake.
And so then it becomes part ofmy identity.
And that's difficult.
like that's difficult for me toreconcile.
Maybe it's because I'm a womanand everything's attached to
everything in my brain.
Like I don't, maybe men cancompartmentalize it better, but
for me, memories and things areattached to one another.
(19:49):
And so when I failed here, nowI'm a failure everywhere because
it's all attached.
Like it all is connected.
And so I think that's what, atleast for me, makes
self-forgiveness ridiculouslydifficult.
I don't know for you guys.
SPEAKER_02 (20:10):
Pierre, I'm not sure.
I was thinking of a question,Michelle, when you were talking.
SPEAKER_00 (20:21):
It would be tough.
Even in parenthood, there'sthings that I'll lash out or
I've lashed out in the past orI'll say something that I regret
and that sits with me.
about how I handle things.
You sit there and once you havetime to reflect, once you're out
of the situation, you're alwayslike, I could have done that
(20:43):
better.
Then you're kicking yourself andwondering why you did that in
the first place.
I think it's natural to get downon yourself after you've done
something wrong.
Whether you realize you didsomething wrong or not, I think
Forgiving yourself is just anobstacle because I think we're
always harder on ourselves thananyone else.
(21:07):
And, you know, for those thatlike go to counseling or
therapy, oftentimes it startswith you.
Like you go in there and you'rethinking everyone else is the
problem and, you know, they layyou on the couch and, you know,
start opening up and, you know,it's something within you that's
causing it all.
Maybe a memory or a past, youknow, And so it's hard.
(21:30):
And you think about, again,being forgiven.
But can you forgive yourself?
I don't know if you've seen likeTombstone.
You ever seen Tombstone, themovie?
SPEAKER_02 (21:41):
Oh, yeah.
Huckleberry.
SPEAKER_00 (21:42):
Oh, yeah.
So I believe it's Doc Holliday'scharacter, rest in peace, Val
Kilmer.
I don't remember who he'stalking to, but they're talking
about Wyatt Earp once he's likeout for the revenge.
I got those brothers and stuffget killed, etc., Someone asked
Doc Holliday, what's he out forrevenge for?
His response for why it hurtsrevenge was being born.
(22:03):
You think about that with somepeople, that's the case.
They've been a rough life, roughupbringing, and they're just so
upset with life that it's hardto forgive themselves and how
they were treated.
It's hard to forgive theirparents maybe and how they were
treated when they were youngerbecause And honestly, there's
(22:25):
times where I'm sure people havea hard time forgiving God.
Like there's times where, youknow, God gets blamed for
tragedies that happen in ourlives.
And you look at the flip side,we just talked about all the
forgiveness that he gives us,but then it often returned.
Like if something tragic happensor something unexpected, like
people hold onto that.
(22:47):
And even those that maybe nolonger believe in God, there was
maybe a point where they didbelieve in God.
And the reason that they don'tanymore is It's because they
haven't forgiven him forsomething that maybe he didn't
do, something maybe he didn'thave a part of, but they're just
holding on to that, of thecharacter that they believe God
is, that they're unable toforgive not only themselves, but
(23:08):
also God himself.
SPEAKER_01 (23:10):
And lay blame, gives some place to lay blame to when
there's nothing else, maybe.
So what do you guys think about,like, do you think that we
inherit, like, emotional habits?
SPEAKER_02 (23:25):
I think we're, we become accustomed to them and we
get programmed that way becausewe see the emotional habits of
our parents or our siblings orpeople that are close to us.
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (23:36):
I agree.
I think that's the very thing.
And so people, you would arguelike that's how you get your
faith is because you're, you'resurrounded by other people of
faith.
Otherwise you wouldn't havefaith, which I think you can
argue against, but there's,there's definitely things that
you learn from, from your eldersgrowing up.
Like, often talk about the racecars.
(23:56):
Obviously, we're an interracialcouple, but you never see a baby
who's racist.
You never see little kids,unless they've been programmed
or taught to act a certain way,they're always friendly with
everyone up until they're toldnot to be.
I think we do.
We grow up in our own differentcultures, our own backgrounds,
(24:18):
and we're taught differentthings, and we witness different
things, and that's how we justassume that things should be
handled.
All right.
SPEAKER_02 (24:28):
So we did a good job, I think, of telling people
why we should forgive, thethings that we should forgive,
maybe, you know, like that.
If we didn't, if you still havequestions about it, you can
backtrack and listen to all.
We'll say it again at the end ofthe episode of how you can
contact us.
But I want to put someactionable things in here before
(24:49):
the end of the show.
How do you forgive?
Like, what are some steps thatyou can take to forgive?
Because I look at forgivenessand I look at all the things
that could have happened to usand how we can harbor those ill
feelings towards others and notforgive them.
And we can just carry thoseburdens around with us all the
(25:09):
time.
But we got to kind of flip thatswitch.
And yes, things happen to us.
But we can flip a switch kind oflike Joseph did back in the book
of Genesis.
where he says, you intended toharm me, talking to his brothers
who sold him into slavery, toldhis father that he was dead and
that some wild animals must havegot him, took his coat to his
(25:30):
dad, you know, and said, he'sgone.
Sorry.
And then Joseph ended upbecoming one of the most
powerful men in Egypt at thetime.
He told his brothers when he hadan opportunity to put vengeance
on them, he could have just saidthe word and all his brothers
would have been dead.
But instead he told hisbrothers, you intended to harm
(25:52):
me, but God intended it for mygood.
Now that is a forgiveness with aperspective, right?
He was able to say what happenedto me by people.
It happened.
But God put me in a positionhere to feed my family.
God put me in position here tosave, I don't know, millions of
(26:13):
people that were going to starveto death if Joseph didn't have
the wisdom that he had to beable to take care of them all in
the position that he attainedbecause his brother sold him
into slavery.
So that's a tremendousperspective.
So I think in order to do that,I know for me, one of the great
(26:34):
healing things I ever had helpedme forgive a lot of things that
happened to me in my past wasbecoming a leader and sharing my
hurts sharing my habits sharingmy struggles that that came from
not being able to forgive peoplewith others in a leader and i
(26:54):
was in a leadership role andsharing those things with them
and and seeing their lives getturned around because they saw
how i was able to handle it andthen they had like whoa if if
that silly guy wes can do itSurely I can handle those things
too.
And I can put some of thesepractices in play in my life and
(27:15):
overcome some of these things.
So for me, when I look at actionability, one of those things is
to talk about it.
Maybe with a counselor first toget healing a little bit or with
somebody you trust to get somehealing about it.
And then to share that withpeople that are hurting
themselves so that you can walkthem through that grieving
(27:36):
process.
What do you guys think?
SPEAKER_01 (27:39):
I think you hit the nail on the proverbial head
because when, I'm sure Pierrewould agree, we haven't talked
about it for a while, but whenour life group, at least for me,
was healing because not onlywere we sharing our personal
things and we did a thing calledBrooded and that was amazing,
(28:04):
but we heard their things andthen we could see how working on
those things together, how someof those things came to fruition
and it was amazing.
And so I think you're right,Wes, that giving it, not giving
it power, right?
When you talk about it, you'retaking away its power because
(28:26):
you're not just, you know,burying it down deep within you.
But the first thing I would sayis I think that I wrote down
some things earlier when I wastaught, when Pierre told me what
this one was going to be.
And what I wrote was it's thequiet act of choosing peace over
pride, healing over hurting andgrowth over grudges.
(28:48):
And like, I think that humansforgive what wounds us and God
forgives what violates morallaw, but both forms of that,
require the same sacrifice.
So we have to let go of justiceto embrace grace.
SPEAKER_02 (29:07):
Yeah, that's great points.
Great
SPEAKER_00 (29:09):
points.
Pierre?
Yeah, so I think about who arewe most likely to forgive in our
lives?
SPEAKER_01 (29:18):
Probably the people that aren't as close to us.
SPEAKER_00 (29:22):
I think it's our kids, personally.
Well, I see that.
SPEAKER_01 (29:26):
Yeah, I guess that makes sense.
SPEAKER_00 (29:27):
And who are we to God?
SPEAKER_01 (29:29):
It's children.
SPEAKER_00 (29:30):
It's children.
So in order for me to, I think,put that in perspective, I think
we got to see everybody likethat.
As God's children, even as ourkids, our kids are someone, even
if you just want to go earthly,like they're earthly children
and you got to really put thatin perspective.
I saw something that said likeadults are basically just, it's
(29:54):
all eight year olds and adultbodies.
And sometimes I think we actthat way, but.
often look at, you know, some ofthe things my daughter does.
She's a really good kid,actually, and doesn't really get
in trouble often.
But when she does, she's justeasy to forgive because that's
my kid.
You look at the prodigal son inthat story that took place.
(30:17):
His father, you know, ran tohim, forgave him instantly, you
know, served a feast to thepoint where his brother got
jealous because his brotherdidn't have that same
forgiveness as a dad.
So I think the The action totake is to try to take that
parenthood-type figure to peoplein our lives and really see them
(30:39):
as children, if not your ownchildren, then children of God,
and kind of keep that inperspective to forgive as God
forgives His children.
If we're called to lift up ourcross daily, we say that Christ
lives within us, the Holy Spiritis an advocate here to help us,
then we have all the things weneed to give that same type of
(31:02):
forgiveness that God did to thepoint that he not only loved us
as children, again, he gave hisonly son to us for our own sins,
our own consequences.
Abraham was willing to do that.
I think that's the reason wehave this whole promise anyways,
that Abraham didn't take Isaacup on the mountain and wasn't
(31:24):
willing to go through with it,would God have been willing to
give his son?
We don't know.
Thankfully, Abraham did that.
So my action is just kind ofthat second commandment to love
your neighbors like yourself.
I feel like that really jumpsout for a reason to me all the
time.
And in order to forgive, I thinkwe got to take that mentality to
really accept that person infront of us as someone deserving
(31:47):
of forgiveness, just like Godsays they are.
SPEAKER_01 (31:50):
And it's probably not a one-time thing.
Absolutely not.
You have to...
Do that multiple times,depending on what the
transgression was, right?
And like just refusing to bechained to it.
SPEAKER_02 (32:04):
So many good quotes.
I got so many good quotes aboutthis stuff and it applies to
everything we've said.
And we're wrapping up theepisode here now, guys.
Martin Luther King Jr.
said, forgiveness is not anoccasional act.
It is a permanent attitude.
Like you said there, Michelle.
And Nelson Mandela said,resentment is like drinking
poison.
and then hoping it will killyour enemies.
(32:26):
It just doesn't make sense, doesit?
And, of course, Jesus said inMatthew 5, love your enemies and
pray for those who persecuteyou, which is easier said than
done.
Like if somebody puts a bump onyour car trying to park, maybe
you can forgive that person andpray for their parking skills.
I don't know how you do that.
(32:48):
That's just something that maybeyou can do in trying to practice
those things.
Whether it's trying to forgiveyour neighbor or maybe your ex
or yourself, just remember thatgrace is a gift that you give
twice.
You give it to that person andthen you also give it to
yourself.
So that's a wonderful thing tobe able to do.
(33:09):
If you have any other thoughtsabout forgiveness or anything we
said, if you need to correct uson anything or you feel like
you're led to correct us orinput, we'd love to hear your
input, no matter what it is.
Pierre, tell them how to get intouch with us again.
SPEAKER_00 (33:21):
Yeah, findingfaith.losingsleep at
gmail.com, over on atfindingfaithpod on x slash
Twitter, and any otherplatforms.
We're on Apple Podcasts,Spotify, iHeartRadio.
Leave us a comment, leave us areview, or send a text through
our summary of our podcastdescription.
SPEAKER_02 (33:41):
That sounds good.
It sounds like a great plan.
And, you know, just go forth,everybody.
Forgive boldly and sleeppeacefully because bitterness is
a terrible bedtime story.
Thank you all for joining us andyou pray for us and we'll pray
for you.
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