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November 20, 2024 56 mins

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Discover the transformative journey of Erica Curry, a former Division 1 athlete who has seamlessly transitioned into a licensed therapist and coach, bringing her unique perspective to the world of mental health. Erica opens up about her passion for Dialectical Behavior Therapy (DBT) and how it has become a linchpin in her approach to helping athletes and first responders excel not just in their careers but in life. From mindfulness to effective communication, Erica reveals the profound impact these skills can have on overcoming challenges such as sports injuries, addiction, and relationship struggles.

We also shine a light on an often-overlooked topic—the mental well-being of therapists themselves. The conversation delves into the necessity of self-care for mental health professionals, emphasizing the importance of therapists seeking therapy to combat burnout. We explore the barriers aspiring therapists encounter, including financial and logistical hurdles, and discuss potential solutions to make the path to becoming a therapist more inclusive without lowering standards. This episode is a heartfelt call to action for the mental health community to support its own.

Finally, join us as we underline the indispensable role of empathy and connection in therapy. The discussion highlights how genuine human bonds can often transcend specific therapeutic techniques, creating a healing space that fosters emotional well-being. We touch on the societal influences that have shaped our emotional health, including the isolating effects of COVID and the pervasive impact of social media. By advocating for systemic changes in education and community-building practices, we aim to equip everyone with the tools needed to navigate life's emotional landscapes.

Her Website is https://coachericacurry.com/


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Episode Transcript

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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hi and welcome to Finding your Way Through Therapy
.
A proud member of thePsychCraft Network, the goal of
this podcast is to demystifytherapy, what can happen in
therapy and the wide array ofconversations you can have in
and about therapy Throughpersonal experiences.
Guests will talk about therapy,their experiences with it and

(00:24):
how psychology and therapy arepresent in many places in their
lives, with lots of authenticityand a touch of humor.
Here is your host, steve Bisson.

Speaker 2 (00:37):
Bonjour aussi, content de vous voir.
Always happy to see you.
Welcome to episode 179.
If you haven't listened toepisode 178 yet, please then go
listen to it because we prepareyou for the holidays.
I know I'm about two, threeweeks early before the holidays,
but might as well get thatcoaching in from finding your
way through therapy before yougo there.
So please go back and listen ifyou haven't listened to it yet.
But episode 179 will be withErica Curry.

(00:59):
Erica is a former D1 athlete andnow is a licensed therapist and
coach.
She helps athletes with theirgoals for athletics as well as
career goals.
She uses mindfulness, distress,tolerance, emotional regulation
and communication.
This is a lot of stuff fromdialectical behavioral therapy
or DBT, so I'm sure we're goingto talk about that.

(01:19):
She likes to develop the skillsfor her clients.
She also talks about mentalhealing after an injury, finding
yourself after sports,retirement, addiction, self-harm
, as well as relationship issues.
We're going to talk about allthat.
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(03:46):
Well, hi everyone and welcome toepisode 179.
I'm very excited to have EricaCurry on my podcast.
I saw her.
We met through I believe it wasa Facebook page of some sort
and you know there's a lot ofcuriosity.
I like talking about sports.
She was a D1 athlete and she isnow coaching athletes and how
to work on certain things, so Iwas very excited to see her.

(04:07):
So, a little change of pacewith you know we went from dogs
to first responders to nowtalking about this, so I like to
change the pace on my podcast.
Erica, welcome to finding yourway through therapy.

Speaker 3 (04:19):
Yeah, thanks so much, steve.
We did connect on Facebook andyour your stuff really did stand
out to me of some family thatare first responders and being
an athlete my whole life, I seea lot of similarities between
the discipline of firstresponders and being an athlete.
It really sets you up forhaving a disciplined routine.
And yeah, I'm a licensedtherapist for the last seven

(04:42):
years and then I also providecoaching for people who are
outside the state of Californiabecause I'm licensed here and
I've been doing specificallydialectical behavioral therapy
and radically open dialecticalbehavioral therapy for about the
last five years.
And once I found dialecticalbehavioral therapy, I knew, like

(05:05):
I found the therapy that I willbe doing the rest of my life.
I don't know why anyone doesanything else, and yes, it's not
gonna be for everyone.
I just know it was for me andthere's so many people that it
could be for, so I'm veryexcited anytime I get to chat
about it.

Speaker 2 (05:21):
We're gonna chat about it for sure, because I'm
actually trained in dialecticalbehavioral therapy or DBT.
We're going to chat about itfor sure, because I'm actually
trained in dialecticalbehavioral therapy or DBT.
We're going to use that as anacronym from now on.
I was trained by people fromMarsha Linehan's team, so that's
how long ago I did it and Ireally enjoy and I think it's
very beneficial.
But you know, we'll get intothat a little more detail.
You said you're a D1 athlete.
What did you play?

Speaker 3 (05:42):
I was a springboard and platform diver.
I went to school on the Eastcoast.
I was at a tiny private liberalarts school called Wagner
college on Staten Island, okay,and I was there all four years
and that's where the door reallypropped open for figuring out
that I really wanted to go intomental health, um, and

(06:04):
everything from.
I remember in high school I hada teacher who said, like you
seem really interested inpsychology, to majoring in
psychology and really liking allthe therapy related courses
that I took that and like I wasalways the friend that people
would come to to talk about this, that or the other thing and I
do love talking so it kind ofmade just made sense.

Speaker 2 (06:26):
Well it's.
It's perfect for the podcasttoo, for having you talk a lot.
So, yeah, I actually know whereWagner was, so it's not so
small that I didn't know wherethat was, but I am on the East
coast, so that could explain.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
And you know, when you said theplatform diving and the
springboard, I'm like I justwatched that on the Olympics, I
don't watch it otherwise and I'mlike, oh my God, I'm having

(06:47):
like heart palpitation for them.
It's really, really, it's nervewracking.

Speaker 3 (06:51):
Yeah, it's so nerve wracking and especially this,
the last two Olympics.
I've had a former teammate whohe's been in the Olympics both
this last round and the roundbefore and it's like extra heart
palpitations Cause like I knowhim and I'm like all right, I
know you got this, like you'vebeen training for this since you
were 10.
I was there.

Speaker 2 (07:10):
Yeah, and I think that you said it yourself, where
you you know first respondersand people who are D1 athletes.
They have a lot of similarities, not only to discipline, but
also missing the holidays andbeing very isolated sometimes
because of the work that you do.

Speaker 3 (07:23):
Yeah, it really sucks you into your own subculture
and your own community.
And when it comes to and yes,it's like same, same and
different because it's the wholeonce you're not in your sport
anymore, it's like how do youreintegrate?
And then, similarly for firstresponders, like if they've been
like deployed or they've beenjust in their job for a long,

(07:47):
long time, trying to acclimateto being in a group outside of
that can be really, really hard.
And that's one of my like sweetspots as a therapist is helping
people figure out thosetransitions in life is like okay
, so what is important to me?
How do I take what's importantto me from my job or my sport
and take those values withoutlosing myself?

Speaker 2 (08:09):
And also just integrating a world that you may
or may not know, because it'sso different.
People who are not D1 athletesdon't understand the commitment.
I just see it in my high schooldaughters who are now going
through just varsity stuff,school daughters who are now
going through just varsity stuff, and you know it's.
They play soccer six, sevendays a week and you gotta be
available, you gotta move themaround.

(08:30):
So there's a whole lot and thisis just high school varsity,
division five stuff inMassachusetts.

Speaker 3 (08:36):
So yeah, it can get really.
I remember before I was a diver, I was a gymnast and I thought
that I like, I was like I wantto go to the Olympics for this.
This is what I want to do.
And my parents started lookinginto, like, okay, how do I go to
an alternative school so I canjust train?
I ended up suffering a careerending injury and had to pivot.

(08:56):
Luckily, diving is like areally great pivot, but that was
also really hard.
So, yeah, like, yeah, I'm nostranger to knowing just how
much sports can pick up and likechange the whole trajectory of
like what a normal life lookslike growing up.

Speaker 2 (09:11):
And I also think about those sports that you just
mentioned.
It's a different stress than ifyou play for a basketball team,
a football team, and I'm notputting it down, I'm just saying
it's very different.
It's apples to celery, as Icall it, because being on that
platform alone, having to dive,it's not like you have a redo,
you don't have anyone to coverfor you, it's just you.

Speaker 3 (09:34):
Yep, exactly, it's a lot of heat on and that's
probably, I think that's thething I miss the least from
being a diver.
It's like the whole place goingsilent and you can feel all the
eyeballs on you.
And I was just talking to anathlete the other day who, like
got to try.
I actually met Alona Mar, therugby player, and I asked her.

(09:58):
I was like what's thedifference to you from being in
your rugby games versus likedancing with the stars, where
it's like you and your partner?
And she said basically to thesame effect she was like well,
my partner's a professionaldancer and I'm not, so obviously
all eyes are on me and when I'mwith my team and there's a
mistake, I at least have thatlike village around me.

(10:20):
I was like that's a really goodpoint.
And yeah, that's I know thefeeling of film like all eyes
are on you and you have no oneto blame stuff on but yourself
if it goes wrong.
It can be so much pressure.

Speaker 2 (10:32):
You know I I once heard Michael Phelps talk about
that pressure that he wentthrough and how isolating it was
and how difficult and he had togo to therapy for a long time,
even led him to thoughts ofsuicide, substance abuse, the
whole nine yards.
He's very open about this.
This is not something I'mbreaking a wall here, you know.
I think that we can go on andon about individual being a lot

(10:53):
more difficult, in my opinion,than a team, not that team is
easier by any chance and by anystretch, but it's just a
different type of mentality.

Speaker 3 (11:01):
It is different yeah.

Speaker 2 (11:02):
So well, let's talk about just what I just talked
about.
Mr Phelps, I worked for acompany where he was one of the
spokespersons for therapy, sonow I always ask the same thing
to all my guests, and this is astandard question here have you
ever been in therapy?

Speaker 3 (11:17):
I have been to therapy and I currently go to
therapy every other week.
Natasha is great, that's thename of my therapist.
I really like normalizing, evenjust saying like the names,
like the name of my therapist,just because it's like therapist
, like we kind of just like liveunder a rock, it almost seems,
because like it's not talkedabout.

(11:37):
And obviously, yes, therethere's things like
confidentiality and, I think,things that clients don't
realize is you're allowed totalk about your therapist all
you want.
Like that is totally fine.
Your therapist is going to keepeverything extremely close to
the vest because confidentialityis very important, but when it
comes to the client, like you,want to say like oh yeah, my, my
therapist Erica like you'reallowed to say whatever you want

(12:00):
and yeah, I've been.
I think therapy is just soimportant that, as I'm attending
to so many other people'smental health, that it helps me
be able to recenter and focus onmine as well, especially when
it comes to like like warning,fending off burnout, because I'm
someone who I really like towork, I really like to help as

(12:21):
many people as I can, andsometimes to my own detriment,
and I remember when I firststarted, I really had to figure
out that balance and I wouldprobably say not until I started
my own private practice did Ifeel like I really had the
option to create balance, justbecause I mean, hey, you got to

(12:41):
pay bills and stuff, and whenyou're working for somebody else
, it's very difficult.
You have to see so so manypeople and I mean I live in

(13:02):
Southern chore.
Now it feels like something Iget to do because I feel like I
have the space and actuallyreally want to attend to my own
mental health and I'm benefitingfrom that.
My clients benefit from thatand I personally think every
therapist should have their owntherapy.
And just for me to graduatefrom my graduate program for my

(13:23):
master's, I had to get at least40 hours of my own personal
therapy.
I had been in therapy beforethat, but I'm really glad most
programs, if you're going tobecome a therapist, you have to
go to your own therapy.

Speaker 2 (13:35):
You know it's so refreshing because you know when
the psychoanalytic world wasaround much more predominant
than any other treatment theyused to have to do.
I think.
Three or four years of therapythree times a week in order to
become a therapist, and whilemaybe in my opinion that's a
little excessive in some way, Ialso see the value in that and I
think it's very important toknow what it is to sit in the

(13:57):
chair of a therapist.

Speaker 3 (14:00):
Well, and I think you also bring up because that
leads to another topic in my ownbrain of like having to go to
therapy that much.
There's also a a barrier tobecoming a therapist that that's
really hard to see until you'rein it.
It is not an accessibleprofession by any means.
The things that are expected oftherapists before they ever

(14:22):
make a cent doing it issometimes an entire 3000 hours
Like.
Personally, I am so gratefulthat I went through my
traineeship and, yes, a hugechunk of my hours were unpaid,
but that place did eventuallyend up hiring me before I was
licensed.
Not everyone is so lucky and canyou imagine if you're having to
pay to go to your own therapyto graduate and then you have to

(14:46):
also pay to go to work becauseyou have to drive there?
Some people have to pay theirsupervisors, so it's not only
are you're not getting paid, youhave to pay for your
supervisor's time.
But yeah, if it used to likeback in the day when it was like
, oh, yeah, you have to go tohours and hours of therapy, it's
like no wonder there's atherapist shortage.
And yes, it does.

(15:06):
There does need to be a lot ofstandards to become a therapist
because it's a very vulnerablesetting and I'm always like I
wonder how we can make therapy,like becoming a therapist, more
accessible with making sure thatthere are high standards to
become a therapist.
So that really comes to mindwhen you mentioned, like the
frequency of therapy and allthese like invisible barriers

(15:28):
that you don't really know untilyou get into it, and I remember
feeling shocked.

Speaker 2 (15:32):
Well, I remember also reading, and it's still true to
this day.
Having a mental healthcounseling or social work degree
is like the second and fourthleast paid master's level
program in the country, likephilosophy, and I can't remember
the other one is, butphilosophy is number one.

(15:52):
It's kind of scary how much wehave these things that we need
to fulfill and for you know, II'm okay with some of those, but
then, besides that, oh, by theway, you're going to be paid
less than most people.
Good luck.

Speaker 3 (16:05):
Yeah, and that's why it's like anyone who is a
therapist.
They are in it because theirheart has called them to do it.
They are not no one's no one'sbecoming a therapist to be like,
yep, can't wait to get that fatpaycheck.
It's like no, this person hastaken years and has honed a
skill and is still continuing.
And we're typically people wholove to learn.

(16:26):
We love to keep learning andgaining new skills, and that's
what's been so exciting to meabout DBT and now RO DBT because
I'm getting to, because they'rebroken up into specific skills.
I feel like I get to be sodetail oriented about how well I
can apply these skills and helppeople learn when they need to

(16:49):
use what set of skills.
It's such a beautifully pavedroadmap and that's the big part
with DBT that I'm like and whyisn't everyone just using this?
How come this isn't like acourt Like to me?
I'm like this should just be inschools.
This should just be a classLike you should have social
emotional learning and it couldjust be you are learning these

(17:11):
coping skills.
You'll get distress tolerance,emotion regulation, mindfulness
and communication Like that.
To me, that just sounds obvious.
So anytime I get to talk aboutit, I'm like let's get into it.

Speaker 2 (17:24):
You know I've always been a fan of DBT.
The only thing I was never afan because when you do the
training you also have to dosome of it.
Doing those diary cards justdrove me absolutely bonkers.

Speaker 3 (17:35):
Oh my, they are detailed.
I had to do a diary card toowhen I went through my training
and I was like, oh, my goodness,Okay, I'm trying to watch a
little less TV and yeah, it issomething that you'd have to.
You have to pull out everysingle day and it's like I'm
trying to think like the, theamount.
I think it's like a sweet spotwith how many targets you give

(17:57):
yourself or someone else.
It's like you can't have a listof.
Oh, my gosh, stop.
Is that your teacher's manual?

Speaker 2 (18:03):
Yeah, of oh my gosh, stop.
Is that your teacher's manual?
Yeah, do you want to share itwith everyone?
Good, this is one Bible that Ilove.
There's so many things in here,and there's things that you
hand out to people that Iabsolutely adore, that I don't
have here.
My handouts are another roomhere are the handouts.

Speaker 3 (18:20):
That's the handout book.

Speaker 2 (18:22):
You know, Marsha had something going when she created
that and I give her a lot ofcredit.

Speaker 3 (18:27):
Well, and her beautiful story.
Have you read her book calledBuilding a Life Worth Living?
I highly highly recommend it.
It is just her amazing lifestory of how she pulled because
do you know a?
Little bit anything about herstory.

Speaker 2 (18:42):
Yeah, I know a little bit anything about her story.

Speaker 3 (18:43):
Yeah, I know a little bit about her story I.
It is just such a beautifulread and I think that it can
really help anyone who'sstruggling figure out.
Okay, what does it mean tobuild a life worth living?
And it just paints this pictureof how she struggled so, so
hard and she promised, if shepulls herself out of hell, she

(19:04):
will go back and pull everyoneelse out of hell.
And like geez, does she staytrue to her word?
Like, look at everything shecame up with?
So I think, like anyone who'slike looking for a good therapy
read, that's the first book Ialways recommend.

Speaker 2 (19:22):
We were off line when we said this, but I think it's
important for us to say it heretoo.
Dbt is not just for personalitydisorder, particularly
borderline personality disorder.
It is used.
I use it personally.
I know me and Erica weretalking about how she uses it
and I use it in therapy, but youknow I work with a lot of first
responders.
If I ever said that we're doingDBT, I think they would run

(19:44):
away from the room as fast asthey possibly could.

Speaker 3 (19:47):
Yeah, if they've heard about it, right, cause
it's like you Google it and it'slike, oh, I don't think I need
that, and the thing that and thething cause since I work with
primarily athletes when I tellthem like this is the
orientation that I use and I'mable to like share my own
experience, cause I'm personallynot diagnosed with any
personality disorder.
I've generalized anxietydisorder and the one skill that

(20:09):
I'm always able to really likenail home for all my athletes is
the emotion regulation skill ofcoping ahead.
And the manual comes straightout of sports psychology, like
that's where she got that onefrom and it's all about just
like how athletes visualizesuccess.
Guess what you can do that inyour regular life.
It doesn't only have to be inyour sports setting.

(20:33):
It can be with a, with aconversation going the way you
want it to.
It can be with a trip to thegrocery store going the way that
you want it to.
It can be anything, and thenit's just like the rest of the
skills make sense because it'slike, oh, okay, so I kind of
just can take the ways that I'velearned to cope and then

(20:53):
generalize that to my life.
It's like, yep, that's whatwe're going for and there's very
specific sets of skills that Ican teach you, because I
remember my first boss, when Ilike really dove into DBT.
She told me she was like youknow, I really hate you because
I remember my first boss, when Ilike really dove into dbt.
She told me she was like youknow, I really hate you because
you like have the dbt skillsbuilt into you already.
I was like, oh thanks.
She was like, yeah, you justhave to like learn the names of

(21:14):
them and then apply them.
But like you're one of thosevery regulated people, I was
like I'm really just veryanxious on the inside and hold
it in.
Well, but thank you.
So and and I do think it speaksto the basics of coping skills
you gain as an athlete and Ithink first responders can be
very similar in that way there'sa lot of skills that you learn,
but you don't have any namesfor them.

(21:35):
So what DBT does is it putsnames on the skills you already
have so that you can morereadily pull from your toolbox.
So that you can more readilypull from your toolbox.

Speaker 2 (21:44):
Right, and I think that that's you know.
You were mentioning Marciaearlier.
I also remember you know whenyou start off you're in a house
and you're in the basement.
The house is on fire and yougot to get out of hell and you
know you can accept the latteror you don't, and just that
imagery is a good way to thinkabout what these skills can do.

(22:04):
You can get out of a fire oryou can stay in your basement of
hell.
You can choose, and I alwaysliked that imagery so I wanted
to share that with the audienceMostly.
I know you know that story, butyou know, when you think about
DBT, there's a lot of specificskills, there's a lot of skills
that you learn from it.
Which ones do you think thatreally apply to the athletic
background of the people youwork?

Speaker 3 (22:26):
Oh, I'd say like coping head is like a very
obvious one, but I would say,outside of that, when it comes
to like ones that are veryhelpful would be mindfulness and
that's like, of course, thecore foundational skill set.
It's what is taught in grouptherapy between every single
module, because it's sofoundational, like, specifically

(22:47):
, the how skill ofnonjudgmentalness and what it
means to be nonjudgmental.
I kid you not, steve, when Ilearned this, like it changed my
life, because I was likeeveryone likes to say they're
nonjudgmental, right, like Idon't judge anyone and it's like
okay.
Well, actually, from birth weare all taught to be judgmental,

(23:10):
and for good reason.
Being judgmental is part ofwhat helps keep us safe.
The difference is, what type ofjudgment are we using?
Because there's a differencebetween discernment and
evaluative judgments.
And once I learned, oh, whatwe're trying to leave behind or
drop is the evaluative judgmentand stick with discernment, it

(23:31):
changed everything.
Because discernment isdescribing specifically what
needs to change or what'sdifferent from before, and it
reminds me of coaching.
Like a good coach is able todiscern what you need to do
differently to be better.
And if you're like, if a coachis saying, oh, that was good,
that was bad, it's like okay,but what was good about it, what

(23:52):
was bad about it?
You can't just have thoseevaluative this was good, this
was bad, that was worse, this isbetter.
You have to be able to describeit, and that's what
nonjudgmentalness really hitshome with, and it also, once you
start using nonjudgmentallanguage to describe other
things, it starts to seep intohow you talk about yourself,

(24:14):
which I love too.
It is the long game.
It's not like you practicenonjudgmentalness for a week and
, all of a sudden, you loveyourself.
I will say, though you do like.
I remember I stopped doingthings like.
I don't say like oh, I'm suchan idiot.

Speaker 1 (24:28):
Like why would I say that to?

Speaker 3 (24:30):
myself.
That's something I used to sayall the time and I didn't think
much of it, and now I'm like no,that's actually really damaging
.
I wouldn't say that to anyoneelse and also like what does
that even mean?
That's an evaluative judgment,like if I'm trying to discern,
what is this even coming from?
And it like puts me in aposition to actually look at the
facts for what they are andlook at what I'm thinking about.

(24:52):
So I would say the mindfulnessmodule is very pivotal and
specifically nonjudgmentalnessfrom the mindfulness house
skills.

Speaker 2 (25:01):
And how we talk to ourselves is so important.
I talk about that all the timeand you know, calling yourself
an idiot or calling yourselfwhatever your name is not
helpful.
And the other, the other onethat I kind of use loosely from
DBT is people who apologize foreverything.
And I and I go look and true,truthfully, I'm, I'm, I'm
Canadian, I'm born and raised inCanada.

(25:23):
So I tell people I'm a Canadian, I don't apologize all that
much, don't be the Canadian, allright, just just don't
apologize for just being you allthat much, so don't be the
Canadian, All right.

Speaker 3 (25:33):
Just just don't apologize for just being you.
I do love that that's like andthe communication skills.
How cool is it that there'slegit scripts that you can use,
Cause you're?
Pulling that from what deerfast right, no apologies.

Speaker 2 (25:42):
Don't tell anyone I'm doing this.

Speaker 3 (25:45):
And it's like I love that so much, though because it
does, it doesn't say you justdon't apologize.
I love that.
It's specific on like I needyou to step back, take a beat
and think about if an if anapology is warranted, and then
taking the extra step if theapology is warranted, let's make
that apology meaningful.
Let's talk about how yourbehavior is going to change,
that this doesn't happen again,cause your apology doesn't mean

(26:07):
much if your behavior is notgoing to change.
And so it's like it reallyholds that dialectic of not
apologizing and if you need to.
We need this to be effective.

Speaker 2 (26:18):
Yeah, and I and I like that.
This is what dialectic is.
It's, you know, cognitivebehavioral therapy all or
nothing thinking happens a lot.
I practice Buddhism, sothinking about how life is not
just the ends, we're both and wegot to find the middle ground.
I mean, I always think aboutdialectical as a basis for most
therapy and anything that'shealthy in this world.

Speaker 3 (26:38):
Absolutely.
I couldn't agree more.
That was another thing.
When I learned what a dialecticwas, I was like how come
everyone doesn't know this?
Two things can be true at thesame time.
And when I see when that light,when that understanding happens
and you see like the lightswitch flip on for someone, it
opens up so much opportunity andpossibility.

(26:58):
Cause I remember always feelinglike stuck when it felt like it
was either this or that and youcouldn't have both.
I wish I had like a specificexample, but I remember
specifically in college I wouldfeel like that a lot Like it was
either you can spend time withyour friends or you are going to
practice really early in themorning.

(27:19):
You can't have both.
And it's like, well, you can'thave both.
It's not like you can go all inon both of those.
Like you can spend some timewith your friends so that you
and then still be very ready forpractice in the morning.
So no, you're not staying outtill 2am in New York city
because you have to be up byfour for practice.
But, I just remember thingsfeeling very black and white and

(27:42):
then learning what a dialecticwas really bridged the gap.

Speaker 2 (27:46):
And I use that in emotional standards too.
When people talk about, well,I'm sad and I said, what else
you mean I can have more thanone.
I'm like, yeah, you can be sadand angry and happy and
everything else.
And it's learning that dialect.
It's not either or approach,it's somewhere in the middle.
And finding that middle groundis always the challenge, in my
opinion.
But I agree with you a hundredpercent and for an athlete, like

(28:10):
you said, I can go out to NewYork, to New York city, for
until 10, 11 o'clock, but Igotta be at my practice at four
and you can do both, but you paythe price and you're willing to
pay the price.
I guess that's okay.

Speaker 3 (28:22):
Yeah, and that's like one of my, one of my favorite
like little games.
Well, I think it's a game,cause I find it fun to play with
clients.
It's like when we're whenthey're learning about what a
dialectic is.
It's like just noticethroughout the week how many
times you say the word but and Iwant you to see if you could
say the word and instead andjust see how that changes things

(28:44):
.
That I'm not saying it's notlike you messed up If you said,
but I just want you to notice itbecause, remember, we're being
nonjudgmental, so it's justabout noticing it and kind of
turning your mind to like huh,how would that go if I said and?
And then, similarly, withnonjudgmentalness, I think it's
a lot of fun to play the game oflike okay, now notice every
time over the week when you saythe word good and bad.
It's not that it's a bad thingto say those.

(29:06):
I just want you to notice howoften evaluative judgments come
up in your life.
And then usually people comeback the next week and they're
like oh my gosh, all I do is saygood and bad all week long.
I think I said it more than Iever did.
I'm like no, you're justbuilding your awareness over how
often you say that there'snothing wrong with it.
It's just about noticing it andseeing if we can start

(29:28):
describing instead.

Speaker 2 (29:34):
One of the things that I talk about with my
clients is it's in my office,not here in the studio, but it's
.
There's a seven dirty words inmy office and it's if, but, try,
could, should, would, probably.
And they said those are alldirty words in my office because
they're all conditionals andyou can't live in the world of
conditionals but to me it's tooconditional.
You got to say and or findanother word to say and people

(29:55):
really gravitate towards thatand I didn't tell anyone.
I stole it from DBT butnonetheless I did.

Speaker 3 (30:01):
Yeah, well, there's a lot of beautiful little nuggets
that come out of DBT and I likewhat you said about the word
but cause.
It also wraps around.
To back around to apologies,right, like we've all heard the
person say I'm sorry, but andit's like well, guess what?
You just negated that entireapology for whatever you're
going to say next, like Iliterally don't care that.
You just said I'm sorry.
So it is true, it is aconditional, and I feel like,

(30:24):
did you say the word Maybe?
That's one word that I reallymaybe I don't do, but that's a
good one to add.

Speaker 2 (30:33):
I can't with that word I'm always like well, I
don't know what that means, so I, I, I like those words.
The reason why I put in theseven dirty words I could have
added maybe, but then it takesaway the call to his stand-up
comedian stuff.
So I don't know if I can addmaybe, but it'll be in the
asterisks or something yeah,sometimes, sometimes, yeah, well
, I think that that's what a lotof people live in, if I can add
, maybe, but it'll be in theasterisks or something.
Yeah, sometimes, sometimes, yeah, well, I think that that's what

(30:54):
a lot of people live in and Ithink that you know this is.
You know, you talked aboutsorry or things like that.
You know, the more I do therapyand fawn is not quite
recognized just yet everywhere,but for trauma it is recognized
a little bit.
But fawning for other people isalso something that happens a
lot.
I'm sorry.
If you're not sorry, why areyou fawning for me?

(31:14):
Just tell me you're not, it'sokay, shit happens.

Speaker 3 (31:17):
Yeah, yeah, it's an encourager to be more direct.

Speaker 2 (31:22):
Yeah, they don't need to fawn for the person across
the whatever on the phone orwhatever for that reason.

Speaker 3 (31:29):
Yeah, and what's interesting is, I think a lot of
the times when something likebonding is going on is it's
difficult to even see that thatperson may be feeling
dysregulated and needing to dosomething like a distress
tolerance skill, and it's almostlike that apology is the way
that they're self-regulating andit's like why don't we stop,
stop, take a step back, observewhat's going on within us, go

(31:52):
splash some water on your face,do a little ice dive and then
come back and it's just likereworking, relearning how to
take care of ourselves, becausewhen we do, when we are in a
state of like fawning andapologizing again, it's like
it's how we've learned to copeand it's gotten you this far.
It's not like it is working toa certain extent and it's just

(32:16):
at a certain point.
It's likely not going to fitwith your set of values or what
you're trying to accomplish andyou can end up self-sabotaging.
So it's worth it to look intomore effective ways of coping
that will make sure you don'tget in your own way.

Speaker 2 (32:30):
And again another DBT skill about self-sabotage and
addressing that stuff, you know.
The other part that I want tomention is you know, when my
therapist, joe and I'm very openthat I go to therapy myself,
lets me like I go use any ofthose words or I start fawning.
He always goes all right.
Where do you feel it in yourbody when you say that?
And that's another great thingthat I've learned, that it

(32:52):
travels across your body andwhere you hold your anxiety and
everything else.

Speaker 3 (32:56):
It's an incredible thing Once you can start
noticing the sensations in yourbody, because, especially when,
when you're new to therapy, youask someone where they feel it
in their body and they're likewhat do you mean?
I'm like all right, we got somework to do, we're going to get
used to this.

Speaker 2 (33:15):
So what I get from you is DBT has changed your life
.
Yeah, and how?
Is it really like?
You talked about day-to-daystuff already, but do you have
other examples of how itinfluences your life in a good
way?

Speaker 3 (33:27):
I mean I know that, like the mindfulness stuff,
nonjudgmentalness has to benumber one.
Coping ahead really stands out.
And then I would say beyond,maybe even more so, like if I
had to judge it and putsomething at the top.
The way that we make treatmentplans and DBT is based off a

(33:48):
literal skill from emotionregulation and it's building
positive emotions in the longterm.
And it's about identifying yourvalues and we usually stick to
a top three to five, no morethan that, so you don't get lost
in it.
And then you define thosevalues for what they mean to you

(34:09):
and then identify goals withinthose values and have a top
prioritized goal.
And, like I know, what I do formyself each year is I map out,
because our values will shiftand grow over time.
Mine have been prettyconsistent recently because I'm
just kind of in like a stablepart of life right now.

(34:30):
But like I revamped my valuesthis year and I'm very clear, if
someone asked me what my valuesare, I'm able to say kindness,
community and grit, like that'swhat I believe in, that's how I
try to hold myself in everysituation and interaction that
I'm in, and it also means thatmy goals are very specifically

(34:50):
tailored to those values.
So when someone asks me why I'mdoing something, I can relate
it back to my values and for me,that brings me such a strong
sense of identity.
But, yeah, I would say thatbuilding positive emotions in
the long term is it's a gamegame changer.
Just to be able to know that,and that's what I tell my

(35:13):
clients too I'm like, hey, whenwe do your treatment plan,
you're learning a whole skilland I want you to be involved in
it and we will learn this skillagain.
But I want you to be able tomake your own treatment plan for
your life, because I'm hopingthat you don't work with me
forever.
Some people do like to be intherapy forever, and that's
that's great.
Like I'm one of those people, Iprobably will be in therapy

(35:34):
forever.
I do like continuing to peelback the layers of the onion,
but there's a lot of people thatby the time they find DBT,
they're fricking done.
They're like I have been goingto 12 different types of therapy
for so long.
Nothing's ever worked, and I'mlike all right, I need you to
just give me your all one lasttime.

(35:54):
I'm telling you this is goingto be helpful, and this is, of
course, after like an assessmentand actually making sure that
DBT can be helpful because itisn't the fit for everyone, and
if I'm getting the vibe andbased on their assessment, I'm
like, oh, this is going to behelpful.
It's like please just give thisa shot and it could potentially
only take you seven months to ayear and you could be done.

Speaker 2 (36:24):
And they're usually like okay, I can do that.
You bring that up and it wasinteresting because I'm a fan of
therapy for life.
That doesn't mean every week,that doesn't even mean every
month, but I'm a big fan oftherapy for life.
So what are your thoughts abouttherapy being for everyone for
all the time, or what's yourthoughts on that?

Speaker 3 (36:41):
I have historically said I do not believe that
therapy is for everyone.
Like I, I believe that thereare some cultural aspects to
therapy, especially in the US,where it does not fit for every
single culture or every person'sexperience, and I do believe

(37:01):
that there are a lot oftherapies that can be
experienced as very invalidatingfor specific cultures,
especially if the therapist isnot well informed on the
background or cultural identityof the person sitting across
from them.
That doesn't mean they can't dogreat work together.
It does mean that thattherapist needs to do some work
and understand that there'sgoing to be some people that

(37:23):
aren't going to be a good fitand there'll be some people that
simply never seek out therapybecause they've found some ways
to cope, Kind of like I think ofhow my boss told me like oh,
you kind of have all these DVTskills built in, you just need
the names of them.
I think there are some peoplethat do have these skills built
in and if they don't encounterany crazy, crazy roadblock,

(37:46):
speed bump in the road andthey're able to navigate some of
life's curve balls because theybuilt up these skills, they
might be able to do it on theirown and that's.
That's awesome, like cool.
It doesn't mean anyone's lesserif they need the help.
It doesn't mean you're betterif you don't.
It just means okay, we've allgrown up a little differently

(38:06):
and I think a lot fewer of uswould need therapy if we got to
learn something like thesecoping skills throughout school,
and that's something that Ithink would be amazing.
And there's that one of thethings that I do on the side is
like talk to different schoolsabout like hey, have y'all ever
heard about this?
It's really helpful.

(38:27):
And there's a charter schoolout in Southern California
nearby myself.
I went and met with helpful andthere's a charter school out in
Southern California nearbymyself.
I went and met with them andnow they actually do social
emotional learning, but theyspecifically tailor it to DBT
and all their kids learn thatbecause they're just like, oh my
gosh, this is amazing.
Our kids do need this.
I was like, oh yes, awesome.
So I think not everybody needstherapy and a lot less of us

(38:50):
would if we learn these skillsgrowing up in a very clear way,
like how DVT delivers them.

Speaker 2 (38:58):
You said so much in this.
I have so many things I want tosay the school stuff.
It is absolutely pivotal thatwe learn these types of things.
I had to learn how to do my own, but you know We've lost that
ability.
Nevermind COVID, but eventhrough social media and the

(39:25):
keyboard warriors that we haveto deal with on a regular basis.
There's so many things I wouldsay that I would change in
schools, but anyway, that'smaybe a different conversation
for a different time.

Speaker 3 (39:35):
Especially with you having kids.
Oh my gosh, I could onlyimagine.
You could probably talk forhours on that topic.

Speaker 2 (39:42):
I coached for 10 years younger girls I think the
oldest was 14.
I stopped last season and I didit for a long time and you
clearly saw the ones who hademotional management skills and
the ones who did not.
But as a coach you can't juststop everything.
All right, let's do distresstolerance, everyone.
It's not something that'sreally well received.

(40:03):
You talked.
You talked about the U?
S and the cultural competencies.
If I did that, some peoplewould be frightened.
If you ask me, yeah, no I agree, and you know.
Talk about cultural competencies.
You're absolutely right.
You know, working with firstresponders, that's always the
first thing.
They check with me to make sureI can handle their stuff and I
think that if you are a sportsathlete, you know, while I could

(40:23):
probably help out, I'm notsomeone who could.
You're much better than me atthat and that's okay because
you've lived it, and I thinksometimes lived experience means
a lot.
However and this is a bighowever for everyone listening
I've never had schizophrenia,but I worked really well with
people who had schizophrenia andyou don't need to have that
diagnosis in order to work Welland that's such an important

(40:43):
distinction to make.

Speaker 3 (40:44):
I think because I remember when I first became a
therapist, or like when I knew Iwanted to become a therapist, I
was still in undergrad and Iwas talking to one of my
professors and I told her I waslike oh, I think I want to go
into grief counseling.
And one of my other professorslike walked in, he heard me say

(41:04):
that and he was like well haveyou really lost anyone?
I was like I mean I have.
I was really young, it was likemy grandparents and like I
can't say I like got.
It was like this huge problem.
And he more or less was like ohwell, if you haven't really
lost anyone, I don't know howyou're going to do that.
And then this other professortold me she was like no, if you

(41:26):
want to do that like you do knowwhat it's like to to like if
that's where your heart's pulledand you're able to sit and hold
that space for people, you canstill do that.
Like that's okay.
And that was the.
The first thing that I did as atherapist was help run grief
groups and it's a lot of heavywork.

(41:46):
I found out very quickly Ican't only do that because it is
a lot of heavy emotions to holdall the time.
But to your point of like youdon't necessarily had to have
had like a specific experienceto help somebody and it's a
dialectic right.
And at the same time, if you dohave that experience, it's
going to be very helpful.
And that's where I know like mylane being with athletes is

(42:10):
such an important one to mebecause it's like I there are so
many points in session whereit's like therapy can almost
move a little quicker, becauseit's like, no, I know what you
mean, I've been there myself andwe're on the same page.
It goes a long way in buildingrapport because you know, the
person sitting across from yougets it.

Speaker 2 (42:29):
Right and I think that that's the other shift in
therapy is that we bring ourpersonalities a little more to
the session.
We used to be blank slates whenwe, you know in the past,
nowadays we bring ourpersonality in.
I encourage all my interns thatI've worked with, and even my
colleagues who sometimesstruggle like tell them why this
is important for you or whyit's not, and they can't do
anything with it.

(42:49):
It's just your story, as BreneBrown would say, someone who
makes fun of your story.
They're the idiot, not you formaking fun of your story.
So I'm a big fan of that too,but I don't know what you think
about that.
But when I worked with I was 25years old, never had kids at
that point, and I was workingwith kids and all the parents
would go well, you've never hadkids.

(43:11):
I've never had schizophreniaeither, but somehow I deal with
them too, and that was astandard line.

Speaker 3 (43:14):
Yeah, no, that's.
I had a very similar experiencewhen I graduated from my
master's.
Like when I started mytraineeship I was 22 or 23.
And I had to teach parentingclasses.
I still don't have kids.
I'm 30.
Now I don't have kids, I have adog.
And I got it about every singleweek of like well, how are you

(43:34):
supposed to be helpful?
And I'm like, well, I the,because I remember it was really
hard for me too.
And I remember talking to mysupervisor and he was like your
job isn't to tell them that youknow what's best.
Your job is to tell them thatyou've read a lot of research
and you've gotten trained inmultiple parenting styles and
you are there to deliver themhelpful parenting tools that are

(43:58):
outside of hitting their kidsBecause all the parents I was
working with had been accused ofphysical abuse towards their
children.
And he's like you're just you,you're just there to do that,
like you're there to offer thescience.
You're not saying you knowwhat's best.
They are the parents.
You're the one who's sayingI've done all the reading, I

(44:18):
have this in my brain and I wantto give that information to you
.
And I found that to be super,super helpful and pretty
effective when talking withparents.
Now I don't face that so much.
I don't know if it's justbecause I'm older.
People assume they like see awedding ring.
They think I don't know whathappens.
But just being older I don'tget so much of that anymore.
But yeah, that was not easy.

(44:39):
And what you said about beingable to be yourself, more so in
a therapy room, that was anotherthing that I feel like DBT
wasn't like.
Marshall Linehan was an amazingpioneer for that, because she
was such a huge advocate for,like, stop acting like.
You have this freaking therapisthat on and you are like a blank

(45:02):
slate of a person like no one'sgetting rid of their biases
ever.
Like we all have our own biasesand you might as well show up
in that room, be yourself, ofcourse, within reason.
That session is not going toturn into your session and it's
important to be an equal humanbeing.
Nobody, like think about evenmaking a friend, like you're

(45:25):
going to make a friend who, likedoesn't really tell you
anything about them.
Like, when I have a firstsession with someone, before I
go into their intake, Iliterally tell them I go, I'm
going to tell you a little bitabout me.
I feel it's only fair becauseI'm going to ask you so much
about you today.
I want you to at least feellike you know a little bit about
me.
And then I asked them if theywant to know anything else.
I'm like literally anything youwant to ask me.

(45:52):
If you hit up on a limit, I'lllet you know.
But if you want to know if Ihave siblings, if you want to
know where I grew up, like askme.
That's okay.
I want you to feel comfortable,whatever it's going to take.
So I love that DBT encouragesthat, because I definitely
didn't get that in grad schooland I mean I graduated in 2018.
I mean, that wasn't all thatlong ago and it was still very

(46:14):
much so like blank slate.
The client is the only likehuman in the room, and that just
doesn't work for people.

Speaker 2 (46:28):
And thank you for making me feel old.
I graduated in 2003.
So thank you very much formaking me feel old.
You're welcome.
All joking aside, though,you're right.
I think that you know once IMarsha's stuff and I also think
bringing yourself.
I tell people my story and Isay, if you know, I this is my
second language, so THs don'texist in French.
So sometimes, when there's a TH, I said if you make fun of me,
that's okay, I'm used to it atthis point and everyone laughs

(46:48):
and it also brings thatconnection.
I think that when we thinkabout therapy in general you
talked about that space intherapy I go back to Gabor Maté,
if you've ever read his stuff.
When you are curious and youconnect with a person across
from you, even on a video call,it's your heart, is almost that
electricity from your heart andfrom your brain just connects

(47:10):
with that person and that's muchmore powerful than CBT, dbt,
ifs or whatever technique youmean.
I think that those techniquesenhances that content, obviously
, but I also like the fact thatour job is to give a good
connection, have that empathy,but also have that connection
with someone, because if youdon't agree, when I don't agree
with my clients, I don't go.

(47:31):
Let's explore that more.
I'm like look, I don't agreewith you.
This is why Convince me andmost people are like good, and
we're going to have a goodconversation and we can have
those conversations conversationand we can have those, those
conversations Well, and Icouldn't agree more with you,
especially on the front of cause.

Speaker 3 (47:46):
When it comes down to it, so much of therapy is human
beings needing more connection.
Like we literally live longerin connection to other people,
and that's something that wehaven't talked about it so much.
But radically open, dialecticalbehavioral therapy is literally
the treatment for emotionalloneliness, and it's all about
learning skills to betterconnect with the important

(48:08):
people around you.
You don't have to connect witheveryone.
It really is quality overquantity and it's important that
the therapist is able to usethose skills in that setting to
be able to connect, because it'ssuch an important part of our
life.
That's how humans evolved thefact that we could connect, form
teams and like, build bridges,spaceships, roads.

(48:28):
Like we could do all thesethings in connection with each
other.
Without that connection, we arenot advancing.
Like we're not at the top ofthe food chain because we can
run the fastest or we have thebiggest claws or the sharpest
teeth.
We're at the top because weknow how to work together and
connection is how we build thatteam.

Speaker 2 (48:48):
Well, I think connection is exactly how we you
know we're pack animals, humansare pack animals and if you
don't have connections withothers, it just kills your
spirit.
There's a research that justcame out and I don't know where
it's out of, but they weretalking about you want to
prevent dementia.
Get connected to other people.
It actually will help and nottake it away completely, but at

(49:09):
least alleviate some of thatsymptomology because you're
connected to people.

Speaker 3 (49:13):
Yeah, it's like a grounding center, and that's
where it's like.
I know there's, especially with, like, younger adults or teens
like the whole.
Whenever I hear someone who'slike, oh, I'm a lone wolf, I go
at this by myself.
I'm usually like, oh, likelittle tiny red flag, because
I'm like, oh, none of us can dothis alone, and it brings about

(49:33):
an important dialectic Like youcan have your uniqueness and be
in connection with other people.
You do not have to sacrificeyour connection to have your
uniqueness.
Like, yeah, sure, maybe you'renot for any, for everyone, none
of us are.
It is important you find yourcommunity, though, and you find
that space to be in connection,and I think that's why things

(49:54):
like AA communities have grownand they are just across the
whole country.
Like it's a shared specificvalue that's created connection,
and it's like when two peoplecause I worked in addiction for
about a year and it was likewhenever I'd see two people
who've been in the programconnect, it's like they've known
each other for years becausethey have that one thing
connecting them.

(50:14):
Like there is something abouteveryone that someone can relate
to.
Don't see, see that as abenefit, see that as an asset.
This is your, your tether toother human beings.

Speaker 2 (50:27):
And we need that Right, and I think that that's
what you know loving to do.
This podcast is also to connectwith people who are far away
from me yet still connect,whether it's my audience,
whether it's my guests.
It's just a great way toconnect because, you know, I
think it's important for peopleto have this.
I'm not alone, as my one of myclients last week asked me.
Like you know, I was sad, so Ilistened to sad music, so I can

(50:50):
really feel it.
I said do you actually know whywe listen to sad music?
And she says no, why?
I said because when we hearsomeone else have a sad
situation, we're like oh God,I'm not alone.
Thank god I'm not alone.
Thank god I'm not alone, andthat's really why we listen to
sad music someone gets it, Imean, and so much music
regarding so many differentemotions.

Speaker 3 (51:09):
It's just they get it and it's like, and it's like
the tipping point right, becauseif you're really dysregulated
and then also listening to sadmusic, it's like we don't need
to be a puddle on the floor andthere's a lot of people like I
know, since I'm an anxiousperson like I, I will like hold
back tears and I'm like, oh, Idon't want anyone to like see

(51:34):
that that things like listeningto sad music or watching a sad
movie is really helpful for meto actually get that release,
because I it's the like, theinhibited grief, you know, that
part of dbt, that's somethingthat was a big issue for me.
I would just like hold it back.
And I just watched what moviewas it that it ends with us with
like lively, oh my gosh, I Iwas sobbing Like it might.

(51:55):
The first job that I ever hadwas at a domestic violence
nonprofit and it just, oh, mylike I was.
It brought me back to so manydifferent stories I've heard and
it it was such a release.
So I do think that it is sohelpful for anyone who struggles
to get tears out.

Speaker 2 (52:12):
Listen to that sad song, watch a sad movie it'll,
it usually does, it does thetrick well, I think that it's
important to have those emotions, and even in therapy, as a
therapist sometimes I'm nottaking away from my clients, but
if I do feel sad, I'm nothiding the fact that I'm sad
about it.
If I'm angry about something, Idon't hide that I'm angry about
it because I think then thatnormalizes their feeling and

(52:34):
that's so important.

Speaker 3 (52:36):
Well, and especially when a client gets, like, some
really sad news or they'reworking towards something and
they they don't get the job orthey don't get into that grad
program, like how invalidatingwould it feel if your therapist
just sits there and doesn't saylike, oh, like.
To me it's like, oh man, I knowwe've been working on this for
months and how hard you worked.

(52:57):
I am so bummed out for you ifyou just sit across from someone
going through something reallydifficult or like a job they
didn't get, a school programthey didn't get into and you're
just a stone wall.
That's going to be damaging.

Speaker 2 (53:13):
You want to screw up a relationship.
In therapy, someone's cryingand being upset about things
they've worked on and you sayand how does that make you feel?
Great way to cut therelationship really strongly.
I'd rather say oh shit, or I'msorry, or something like that.
That sounds a lot moreempathetic and truthful from my
emotional standpoint than sayingand can you tell me more how

(53:36):
that feels?
I mean, no one wants to hearthat.

Speaker 3 (53:39):
Yeah, that's definitely not the moment for
that.
And where do you feel that inyour body?

Speaker 2 (53:44):
Yeah, I don't think that Joe would even do that to
me.
He's a pretty good therapist.
But as we wrap up here causewe've been going for a while I
want people to be able to reachyou.
How would they be able to reachyou in regards to getting some
coaching done or anything likethat?

Speaker 3 (53:59):
Yeah, I mean you can find me on.
If you're in California, youcan find me on psychology today,
pretty much every therapistunder the sun is on there and
I'm also on Instagram at EricaCurry LMFT, and there's a link
in my bio that takes you to mywebsite.
My website is Erica currycomand then there's just you can

(54:19):
just hit the button for likecontact me.
You can also send me a mess.
If you can't figure that out,you can send me a message on
Instagram and I can send you thelink directly.
But, yeah, that's probably thebest way to get in touch.
I'm also on TikTok, not as much, but same handle Erica Curry
LMFT.

Speaker 2 (54:37):
Yeah, Well, I'm going to put that on the show notes.
I actually was thinking I'mgoing to put Marsha's book also
for people who are curious aboutDBT.
I think it's a great thing.
I wanted to thank you for yourtime.
This went by really fast, andthank you for bringing in the
RODBT in, because we never gotto it.
So thank you for that too.
Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 3 (54:58):
I had so much fun.
This is a great way to connectand start off the day.

Speaker 2 (55:03):
Well, I thank you again for your time.
Well, this completes episode179.
Erica Currie, thank you so muchfor being here, looking forward
to hearing more from you inregards to your therapy practice
and everything else.
But on episode 180, we aregoing to talk to old friends of
mine.
We're going to talk to Tamarand Lane, which they have a new

(55:24):
book out.
Can't wait to share that withyou and their new developments
in their career.
So I hope you join me then.

Speaker 1 (55:32):
Please like, subscribe and follow this
podcast on your favoriteplatform.
A glowing review is alwayshelpful and, as a reminder, this
podcast is for informational,educational and entertainment
purposes.
Only If you're struggling witha mental health or?
Thank you.
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