Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hi and welcome to
Finding your Way Through Therapy
.
A proud member of thePsychCraft Network, the goal of
this podcast is to demystifytherapy, what can happen in
therapy and the wide array ofconversations you can have in
and about therapy Throughpersonal experiences.
Guests will talk about therapy,their experiences with it and
(00:24):
how psychology and therapy arepresent in many places in their
lives, with lots of authenticityand a touch of humor.
Here is your host, steve Bisson.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Toujours un plaisir
always a pleasure to be back and
welcome to episode 169.
If you haven't listened toepisode 168, it was Adrian Tiki
who talked about recovery and Ihope you got to listen to that.
If not, go back and listen.
It was a great interview.
I thought we had a greatdynamic.
We talked about recovery in avery honest way, which I think
sometimes can be hard, but Itruly enjoyed our conversation.
(01:00):
But episode 169 will be withAnne Diamond.
She is a best-selling authorand leading expert in health,
safety and recovery with over 20years of experience in the
sector.
She wrote a book called Turningthe Tables on Bird Out You'll
find that in the show notes andshe talked about her personal
journey of overcoming PTSD andmental health challenges.
She is also a holistic mindful,uses a methodology for health
(01:27):
and safety management and wasrecently diagnosed with ADD
during her menopausal time, andshe wants to talk about how that
has really helped her in herwork with herself, as well as
being nice to herself, and howthat's changed certain things.
I think we're going to talkabout childhood trauma.
We're going to talk about a lotof different things.
So here's the interview.
(01:55):
Getfreeai yes, you've heard metalk about it previously in
other episodes, but I'm going totalk about it again, because
getfreeai is just a greatservice.
Imagine being able to payattention to your clients all
the time, instead of writingnotes and making sure that the
note's going to sound good andhow are you going to write that
note, and things like that.
(02:15):
Getfreeai liberates you frommaking sure that you're writing
what the client is saying,because it is keeping track of
what you're saying and willcreate, after the end of every
session, a progress note.
But it goes above and beyondthat.
Not only does it create aprogress note, it also gives you
suggestions for goals, givesyou even a mental status if
(02:37):
you've asked questions aroundthat, as well as being able to
write a letter for your clientto know what you talked about.
So that's the great, greatthing.
It saves me time, it saves me alot of aggravation and it just
speeds up the progress noteprocess so well.
And for $99 a month.
I know that that's nothing.
(02:59):
That's worth my time.
That's worth my money.
You know, the best part of it,too, too, is that if you want to
go and put in the code steve50when you get the service at the
checkout code is steve50 you get$50 off your first month and if
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So again, steve50 at checkoutfor getfreeai will give you $50
(03:24):
off for the first month and,like I said, get a full year,
get 10% off, get free fromwriting notes, get free from
always scribbling while you'retalking to a client and just
paying attention to your clients.
So they win out, you win out,everybody wins, and I think that
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And if you're up to a pointwhere you got to change a
treatment plan, well, the goalsare generated for you.
(03:46):
So, getfreeai code Steve50 tosave $50 on your first month.
Well, hi everyone, and welcometo episode 169.
Just happy to have Anne Diamond.
Did I get it right?
You?
got it right, all right, great.
I hope I don't have to repeatit as a guest it's been.
(04:08):
You know I was reading her bio,reading a lot of stuff.
We just talked a little bit.
Ironically, this episode comingon on 9-11, which will be 23
years, I can't believe she wasgiving us a story about that.
Want to share the story BecauseI think that's important for
people to know.
Speaker 3 (04:23):
Yeah that Want to
share the story because I think
that's important for people toknow.
Yeah, sure, thanks very muchfor having me, steve, it's a
pleasure to be here.
Yeah, I was visiting New Yorkjust before 9-11 and I was in
the Empire State Building and Iwent downtown to the Twin Towers
and I met some Scottish firemenand I lived in Edinburgh at the
time, so I noticed that I justmet some Scottish firemen, um,
(04:45):
up at the Empire State Buildingand then when I went down to the
Twin Towers, I noticed a localfirst responder, a firefighter,
checking the hydrants.
So I took a photograph of him,just, you know, just for my
records, to show my friends.
When I got back home, of course, you know, and, um, anyway, I
went back to, to work to inEdinburgh and in those days we
(05:05):
had photographs developed, youknow, you had to send them off
to be developed and we werewatching some.
I think it was a sportstournament that was on TV.
They allowed us to watch TV atwork whilst the sports
tournament was on and, of course, I was showing everyone at work
these photographs of my time inNew York and we watched the
whole thing unfold on TV and itwas just just shocking, you know
(05:26):
, for everyone involved.
We thought it was a movie.
So I've thankfully been backthere to do the New York
Marathon for my 40th birthday um10 years after that.
And then I went back 10 yearslater with my art college, when
I was doing my art foundation,and went to see the memorial.
So I think a little bit ofclosure there, you know, seeing
it, the memorial, theappropriate memorial that's been
(05:49):
put in place.
So yeah, that's my story.
Speaker 2 (05:52):
As a newly
citizenized American, we never
forget.
No, but more importantly, as ahuman race, I think we can't
forget what that meant for awhole lot of people.
So thank you for sharing andcongratulations.
Running a marathon is amazing,so no matter where you do it,
but congratulations for that too.
Speaker 3 (06:12):
Well, actually, just
to add to that, I actually
walked the marathon because Iwas with a breast cancer charity
Walk the Walk and it started inNew York, nina Barath, as a
protest for the treatment ofwomen with breast cancer and we
walked in decorated bras.
So we went as a team and wewalked from Staten Island
Central Park in our decoratedbras.
(06:33):
It was quite good.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
Walking 26.2 miles in
decorated bras is quite a sight
to see.
Speaker 3 (06:40):
Yeah yeah, it was.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
Well, I'm happy you
did that, but I feel like we're
talking a little bit.
You know being released on 9-11.
I want to make sure I made amention out of that, but now
might be more important for meto not skip any beats and ask
you more about you thanks, steve.
Speaker 3 (06:56):
Um, my name's and I'm
.
I'm uh, I guess I'd say I'm asocially engaged artist, but
I've used my 20 plus yearsworking in health, safety and
well-being and uh, to sort ofcombine that to support people's
resilience really, and helpthem to beat burnout.
Because of my own experiencesof mental health trauma, um,
(07:19):
adverse childhood experiencesand the score they can say if
you have four or more, itsignificantly impacts your life.
Well, I scored nine.
So and it wasn't until I was 38that I realized I had complex
PTSD.
So I spent the last 14 yearsI'll give my age away there
healing, recovering, learninghow to process what that meant,
(07:41):
all the behaviors that I'dlearned to survive and cope.
And one of the biggestrealizations was that I was
working in health and safetybecause I didn't feel safe
myself.
I was trying to keep everyoneelse safe.
So when I was 48, I said I'vehad enough of this.
I went back to art college anddid an art foundation and it
changed my life basically well,I can't hear to hear more about
(08:03):
the art college.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
Um, you talked a
little bit about, you know,
realizing what you did for aliving was a way to stay safe,
because you felt unsafe.
Have you ever been in therapyyourself?
Speaker 3 (08:14):
yeah, once.
I well, I had several periodsof mental ill health during my
20s.
Once I'd left the homesituation that was causing me
the trauma, uh, went off touniversity and then obviously it
hit me once I was out of thatsituation.
So I had a little bit oftherapy when I was at university
and then, you know, other lifechallenges added up, like I lost
(08:38):
a pregnancy and and mentalhealth stress at work.
So I had various talkingtherapies and then, when I had
the CPTSD diagnosis, I was sentto cognitive behavioral therapy,
and that and that introduced meto mindfulness and meditation,
which was a journey that I'vebeen on for, you know, over 15
(08:58):
years now.
And then, in 2018, I wasintroduced to emotional freedom
technique tapping.
I was helping a friend outwho's trained as a therapist,
and it had such a big impact onme that I trained as a therapist
myself.
Speaker 2 (09:13):
You've given me, like
many things, I want to ask you
right now based on all that, butlet's talk a little bit about
you know you talked about alittle bit about work and being
difficult.
We can start with your child,like you talked about a
childhood and how that reallyimpacted you, and then realizing
(09:34):
cptsd, which is, you know, veryimpactful.
So how about we start with,maybe, childhood, and be a good,
be a good therapist, so tospeak, and I'll start off with
the beginning yeah, um how?
you know.
You know you talk a little bitabout the impact of childhood
trauma.
How did that uh impact and you,and how did it bring you to
healing and recovery whereyou're at today?
Speaker 3 (09:54):
well, I mean I don't
know how much detail I want to
go into, but basically my, myparents, my parents, have split.
My mom left my father when Iwas five, so obviously there was
a separation trauma of notbeing with my dad, and I'll just
say that I wasn't really wantedby my, the parent that took me.
They took me because they feltthat they had to, so every time
they had a challenge or troublein their second, next
(10:16):
relationship, I was theemotional punch bag or physical
punch bag or whatever.
So when you grow up from theage of five to the age of 17,
being you know, not feeling likeyou belong, it has a big impact
on you for the rest of yourlife.
So you don't feel like you had.
And obviously now I know I'vegot ADHD, which I was diagnosed
with this year.
There's that extra layer to addinto it as well, thinking well,
(10:39):
was it my ADHD or was it the,the family situation?
So there's a whole lot of stuffthat I needed to unpack.
But yeah, it was leaving.
I got kicked out when I was 17.
I walked in an argument so Ihad to finish school, living
with a step relative and then goto university.
So I used education and bedoing everything I could at
(11:04):
school every club, every afterschool class so I didn't have to
go home and I knew that's theonly way I could get out.
There was to stay on, doeverything I could at school,
just because, thankfully, when Iwas at that age in here in the
UK we didn't have to payuniversity fees so I could go to
university without beingreliant on them for funding.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
Yeah, so it became
your safe zone.
Speaker 3 (11:26):
Yeah, yeah, it was my
safe zone.
School was my safe zone.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
It's good to have a
place where you can have your
own thought process, your ownideas, and then you know, the
realization of what you've beenthrough is probably where it
really strikes you, because youknow, one of the things I've
always seen in the trauma workthat I've done is that you don't
know it's weird until you leaveand someone tells you no, this
was weird yeah, yeah, yeah it's.
Speaker 3 (11:53):
I mean, I saw my
friends, families, I saw how
they functioned.
You know, when I went to visitmy friends, how their parents
interacted, how they treatedthem, how they spoke to them and
and you know, so I did knowthat it wasn't right, but it was
such a, it was such achallenging dynamic because, uh,
we didn't have a telephone athome so the only contact with
the outside world was going tothe payphone up there.
(12:16):
So that was quite isolating, um, I didn't have a key to get in.
So if I wasn't home by thecurfew so it was very
controlling and if they, if mymother was, um angry or upset
and she was taken out of me,she'd send me to the phone to
reverse the charges, to call myfat dad to come and collect me,
and he lived 200 miles away.
(12:37):
So there was that wholerejection, abandonment type
wound.
That happened over and overagain, you know, um, yeah, and
then there was alcoholdependency and and, um, a
serious attempted murder as well.
So you know there's quite a lotof trauma going on.
So you know, I I was traumabonded, basically, I think,
(13:00):
because what else, you know,where else would I go?
Speaker 2 (13:03):
right.
Speaker 3 (13:04):
Well, that's what
trauma is right yeah, yeah, I
mean, I've learned a lot aboutthat now, so I think that's
probably why I've been so keento understand it, so I could
understand myself a lot more,and I've done a lot of reading,
a lot of learning, a lot ofself-help books, as well as a
therapy.
Speaker 2 (13:19):
So well, I think that
you you talked about.
You talked a little bit abouthealth and safety.
I understand you wrote a book.
Speaker 3 (13:27):
Yeah, yeah, turning
the tables on burnout because I
realized that the behaviors thatI'd learned to cope with the
PTSD and the trauma werebasically people pleasing,
perfectionism, overworking youknow all the classic behaviors
overworking you know all theclassic behaviors.
And that's why I kept burningout, because, um, um, I was just
(13:49):
exhausting myself, trying toplease everybody and not
listening to my.
Of course, it was.
It impacted more when I had afamily, because I was obviously
worried about looking after mychildren and working and
balancing all that as well.
And, uh, yeah, it was acombination of a couple of
losses, like two, two, two lotsof grief within a short space of
time.
Bullying at work because youknow, people with adhd are more
(14:11):
prone to bullying because of youknow, that's, that's, that's,
it's, it's just well known thatpeople with adhd don't they
avoid conflict too.
But my additional conflict withavoidance behaviors, um, yeah,
so it's a real massivecombination of things.
I had nine months off work.
I was so ill, I couldn't takemy kids to school and I just
thought I can't do this anymore.
It's got something, that's gotto change.
So I had therapy and then Irealized that now I've got a
(14:36):
break free from the cycle.
So that's when I started tryingto learn all these different
resilience tools I sort of callmy resilience toolkit and that's
what the the book talks about.
It's all that you know.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
Well, you talk about
resiliency a lot, because I
think that's important to talkabout with individuals, because
we can't change our past and wegot to develop some resiliency
in order to deal with the today,the here and now.
If you were going to talk to myaudience and said to me the one
tool, the tool that reallyhelped you the most today in
(15:08):
your resiliency, what would yousay it was?
Speaker 3 (15:12):
might sound really
odd, but the first thing I
always teach my clients isacceptance, is acceptance of
where you are and whateveryou're feeling right now,
because it's a suppression ofthe emotional response and a
suppression of accepting thatwhatever's happened happened to
you that actually causes youit's it's the second dark
(15:33):
principle I always share in mywork actually being wounded.
But the more you go over it andsay that shouldn't have
happened or they didn't, you'rewounding yourself.
You're not wounding anyone elseor you're holding on to the
anger.
So the acceptance part is likethis is where I am.
This is a line in the sand.
How can I let go of the pastand move forward in a more
healing way?
Speaker 2 (15:54):
It really sounds like
acceptance and commitment
therapy.
If you ask me, ACT is.
Speaker 3 (15:59):
Oh yeah, you're more
expert in that than me, steve.
I'm sorry I don't.
Yeah, I guess it is, it's good.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
It's good, because I
think that that's it's not weird
to me, but acceptance is you'llheal once you accept reality.
I think that it's hard forpeople to realize that.
But you know, like whathappened to you is what happened
to you.
Speaker 3 (16:21):
Can't change that,
can you?
Speaker 2 (16:23):
You know I don't mind
doing talk therapy.
Obviously that's what I do fora living.
But even if I talked it for 20years to you till you're blue in
the face about what happened toyou, if we don't get to
acceptance and we don't get to,hey, this is what it is and I
can't change it.
What's the point?
Um, I, I like I'm a Buddhistand I like to use the Buddhist
uh statement of holding ontoanger is like holding onto a hot
(16:45):
coal expecting it's going toburn someone else, Um, and it's.
it's that acceptance and beingable to let go after that
acceptance.
I don't know what you thinkabout that, but that's certainly
where I go.
Speaker 3 (16:56):
Totally, and that's
where I was coming from with the
second dart thing.
I mean, the turning point forme was the therapist.
The CBT therapist introduced meto Jon Kabat-Zinn's work and
the whole compassionate mind andthe whole mindfulness-based
stress reduction and that once Istarted getting into
mindfulness and understandingand with the emotional freedom
(17:20):
technique, understanding howyour brain works, so you know
the, the tapping on theacupressure points tunes into
your stress response, youramygdala.
Because every time you have athought, you'll know this I'm,
you know, I'm speaking to theaudience here.
Every time you have a thought,you know this I'm, you know, I'm
speaking to the audience here.
Every time you have a thought,your brain doesn't distinguish
between whether it's how ithappens, it's happening now or
when it happened in the past.
You're still releasing thosestress chemicals in your body.
(17:42):
You're still releasing thatsame stress response, the fight,
flight, freeze fawn.
So actually it comes to thepoint we think why am I doing
this?
What?
What's the point of keeping andtalk therapy for me?
Um vessel van der Kolk in hisyou know, my body keeps score
work he's, you know.
That's why I like EFT, becauseit's all stored in the body if
(18:02):
you don't have a right way ofreleasing it.
So I explored a lot of it in myart degree actually my art
program because, uh, I wastrying to use creativity for
well-being and I really listeneda lot to Bessel van der Kolk
and all those sort of somaticmindful mind-body connection
therapists and expressed so muchof the trauma and released it
(18:25):
through the creative process.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
Yeah, and I think the
creative process is a release
for so many people.
And you talk about tapping, youtalk about your hand.
I like the this area of the thesore spot here.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (18:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
So a lot of people
talk about I'm a big fan of that
stuff has tapping becomesomething that you do regularly,
or where are you at with thetapping in general?
Speaker 3 (18:56):
Yeah, you do
regularly.
Or where are you at with thetapping in general?
Yeah, I, I describe it as adimmer switch for your emotional
response.
So, if you're depending on,obviously, how, how your nervous
system sets, like, your setpoint of your nervous system and
how you, how you get triggered,the stress triggers, I call it,
I take them in.
Your stress triggers you can,when you, when you tap on, even
if you tap on the side of yourhand or the side of your fingers
, your stress triggers you can,when you, when you tap on, even
if you tap on the side of yourhand or the side of your fingers
or you know, you can do itdiscreetly without people seeing
(19:17):
it, so you don't have to do thewhole facial thing.
But, um, like, if I'm in a caror something with somebody and
I'm anxious about their driving,I'll just tap, or, before I'm
talking, I'll tap and it justtunes down that and make the
response and gives you thatpause to say is this still same
stress as it was the originalfirst time?
So, if you're public speakingor whatever, it's like, okay, I
(19:38):
was anxious about that before,but I'm actually about it now,
and it gives you that pause tosort of choose how you respond
yeah, I'm yeah for me it's thetug of the ear which I'm wearing
my oh it's an NLP thing, yeah,so I like the yeah tug of the
year.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
It's a.
Speaker 3 (19:53):
It's an NLP thing
yeah, so I like the tug of the
ear.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
It's a little, it's
subtle but it is something that
helps me calm down.
So, for those of you on YouTube, you're going to be looking for
me and Anne to do some of thosethings right now.
Okay, yeah, I'm tapping myhands here.
Speaker 3 (20:07):
Well, actually, this
chair that I'm sitting in, I don
see I'm on YouTube.
I'm sitting in this rockingchair and this is one of my
projects that actually was sucha healing process for me in my
art project because it was aboutum, then and now, and I found
this poem called forget the past, and I can't remember the poet,
steve, somebody, and it wasabout.
The past is a series of mentalmirrors that you filter through
(20:29):
and that.
So I wrote my own response poemto that.
So poetry is a big, big outletfor me for to process my, my
trauma and my, my emotions.
And this chair I'm sitting onthe seat, is the present.
So I've done a lotus flower ummotif on the seat cushion and
the back panel, which obviouslyyou can't see because I'm
sitting on it is is in fivesections, one for every decade
(20:52):
of my life, and I've chosenelements on each panel to
represent events in those fivedecades.
So, by creating this chair, Isit in the present and I write
back to the past.
And that, for me, was threemonths of stitching, choosing
photographs, creating this pieceand it sits in my room and it's
(21:14):
one of the most healing thingsI've ever done stitching,
choosing photographs creatingthis piece and it sits in my
room and I.
Speaker 2 (21:18):
it's one of the most
healing things.
I've ever done so.
Art plays a big factor for youand being able to express
yourself in your art.
One of the things that I talkabout with trauma is finding
also these outlets for yourselfto do.
Is that?
Is that an outlet that youdiscuss with people in regards
to like being creative whetherit's writing, whether it is
stitching, whether it's dancingright, I really don't mind what
people do but is that somethingthat you talk about with other
(21:41):
people?
Because that is part of thehealing process, in my opinion.
Speaker 3 (21:44):
Yeah, I mean, I do.
I run create calm workshopsonline.
You know they're bookable byrent, right, which I take people
through, just great.
And I also run in-personworkshops and, um, I, I did host
a podcast called creatingresilience where I talked to
people about how creativitysupported them being more
resilient and the the way Idescribe it, because I train
(22:06):
health coaches here in the uk.
So let's train people to havepersonalized health
conversations, let's talk tothem about what matters to them.
And we talk about the threebrain model, which is obviously,
I know is a simplified model,but you know you've got your
survival brain, which is your.
You know nothing gets past thatif it's going to threaten you
at all, so that's your stressresponse.
And you've got your emotionalpart of your brain, which is
(22:27):
your responses to any threats orwhatever.
And then you've got yourprefrontal cortex, which is your
thinking and problem solvingbrain, but that's also the
creative brain.
So I explain to people that ifyou're being creative in
whatever form you know getsmakes you relax, whatever form
you enjoy doing, whether it'syour poetry, music, art, drawing
and dancing or whatever ifyou're being creative and in
(22:51):
flow, your brain is, bydefinition, calm and so it's.
It's a really simple way to saylook, being creative calms you,
but also you are calm afterbeing creative.
Speaker 2 (23:04):
So that that's how I
explain it to people yeah, and I
think that being able to youknow, I tell people about
incompatibility if you're reallystruggling with something and
think about a child's laughter,for example, that genuine child
laughter and people usuallysmile when I say that and I'm
like see, we created anincompatible thought about what
you were reprocessing from yourthoughts in the past or trying
(23:28):
to fix it or what have you.
So I call it distraction, callit redirecting, call it whatever
people like to feel, but Iremind them like that's being
creative and being able to thinkabout different things.
Like to me, I have, like, as mykids laugh at me, is there's
like three reels that they puton my phone that when I really
want to laugh I just watch itand then I started laughing
(23:49):
hysterically, and it's it, andit seems silly, but it really
definitely moves me from myprimitive brain, as I call it,
to more of my cerebral cortexand be like oh okay, I can feel
good, it's okay, it's past, I'msafe now.
Speaker 3 (24:04):
Yeah, well, laughter
yoga is a whole thing, isn't it?
I mean, have you ever triedlaughter yoga?
That's amazing.
I mean, you can stand therefeeling really uncomfortable in
a circle with people and justthe act of faking a smile starts
releasing those happy hormones.
Because your brain, again,doesn't know the difference.
If it sees those muscles areactivated in your face for a
smile, it'll still release thesame chemicals, won't it?
(24:25):
So you know, it's very.
It's a very complex thing, ourbrains, but actually it's also,
on the fundamental level, verysimple.
It's the same stimulus that'sgoing in.
It doesn't gauge time orgenuineness, does it?
Because if you're smiling, evenif you didn't mean it or not,
you still get that effect.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
Well, I think that
laughter is the best medicine.
It's the best therapy Part ofthe work I've done.
You know talking about, youknow how to overcome the impact
of any type of trauma.
I tell people like laughter isthe key and in therapy I a
little bit like this podcast.
I go from you know being fairlyserious to making silly jokes
(25:04):
and the reason why is that youactually internalize whatever
you learn a lot faster if you'resmiling and laughing.
Yeah, because you're in thatcreative problem solving part of
your brain so I I definitelyrelate to that and, um, you know
, tapping helps.
Uh, people always think it'sfunny to do tapping when they
first start, uh, but once theyget into it they're like, hey,
(25:26):
this really works.
Speaker 3 (25:27):
I'm like, yeah, I'm a
reiki practitioner so, believe
me, I know other stuff thatworks on that level well, it's
interesting actually, becauseobviously tapping can work on
many levels and you've got your,you've got you can do yourself.
You tap on yourself, which is,you know, the calming thing.
But if you're working with atherapist like when I work with
clients, when I'm doing efttherapy with them because I do
also offer eft therapy sessionswe can do the tapping, like you
(25:51):
know, basically repeating whatthey've said or work using their
, the client's words and workingthrough well, but what I love
about it is so creative and soimaginative because we can use
so many techniques.
We can use the movie techniqueso we can separate them from it,
we can do parts work, we cantake them back to their inner
child.
And what I love, one of myfavorite things I love doing is
(26:11):
the writing on the wallsexercise, which is like Gary
Craig originally did that and Itake the clients to imagine them
to be in a space where theyfeel happy and talking about
their beliefs.
You know they're put theremostly before the age of seven
by other people, so the beliefsabout themselves and that's the
writing on their walls, and wetalk about palace of
(26:32):
possibilities.
So we mostly stay in one roomconfined by these beliefs about
ourselves and there's suchcreativity and imagination when
they bring in their favorite petor they bring in their younger
self or they bring in somebodyelse.
They want to help them clearthese old beliefs.
And then they just go to townwith all sorts of wonderful ways
(26:53):
of clearing and redecoratingthis room the way they want it
and then leave the go throughthe door and leave the room and
that creative process ofclearing sometimes decades of
trauma just with a simplecreative exercise is so magical.
And they do that obviouslywhile they're tapping, and it's
amazing.
Speaker 2 (27:12):
I mean, you don't
need to sell me on the uh impact
of tapping I.
I definitely know that itbrings personal transformation,
not only in a creative level,but, like you you know you've
mentioned so nicely, it takesaway those emotional blocks,
right, I mean?
Speaker 3 (27:26):
that's my experience
anyway yeah, yeah and I and I.
I think that's probably why Iwas drawn to it, because of the
creative nature of it, becausethe physical act of tapping is
one thing, but it's how you askthe questions or how you.
You know you can go off in acomplete rabbit hole, and maybe
that's why that's why I like it,because my adhd brain just
(27:46):
loves this sort of thing.
Speaker 2 (27:48):
From one thing to the
next yeah, well, I think that
we're we're all getting close tothat in.
In general, I think that withyeah the, the whole uh phone
social media aspect of everyone.
Now we have, we need thiscreative outlet, we need to
redirect ourselves and we havetrouble sometimes focusing, so
finding that one thing you canfocus on is so important well,
(28:09):
that's, that's the the thingwith a, the rise of ai now,
isn't it?
Speaker 3 (28:13):
because they say
people, people's one.
What I'm not this is I'm notsaying it's bad, but what I'm
saying is there is one thoughtstream saying that actually it's
removing our creative thinkingprocess as well, because you
don't have to think for yourself, you just put a question in and
this sea of information willcome out and do things for you
which can be helpful to organizeyour thoughts.
(28:35):
But, on the other hand, youknow we've already lost our
attention span, but is ourcreativity going to be stifled
by it as well?
Speaker 2 (28:43):
No, I would argue
that our creativity has been
stifled with phones because welet other people be creative and
guide us.
I mean in the spirit of thepolitical system we're in now in
the united states of america.
Uh, you get the feed of thepeople you agree with.
You don't get acounterproductive point of view
(29:04):
or being able to be criticalthinkers and for me that's
important to look at the worldcritically, not only the world,
but even yourself and your ownactions.
Not critical, oh, you're bad,but critical.
And like whom is my point ofview valid?
Why is it valid by only acertain people?
Why can we see it from anotherpoint of view?
and I think yeah, a lot of thestuff that we're missing out on
(29:24):
nowadays.
Speaker 3 (29:25):
To be able to solve
our trauma not supporting saying
, oh look, I want to be, I wanta trauma bond with my uh abuser,
but also understand otherpoints of view is very important
it is and that's one of thethings we do in the in the
health coach training is we'retrying to shift mindsets in both
the medical professionals whoare talking to the patients, but
(29:47):
also in the patients, becausefor years they've been asked
what's the matter with you?
But actually the conversation wedirect is what's what matters
to you.
And it's a real mindset shiftbecause people have been used to
going and seeing the medicalprofessionals and therapists and
expecting to be fixed but theydon't realize they've got such a
big responsibility for managingtheir own health and well-being
(30:09):
and unequally the, thetherapists and professionals
think they're the experts andthey know better than the
patient, but actually thepatient knows themselves far
better than the.
Obviously they've got a lot ofmedical knowledge or knowledge
in their field, but the patientknows themselves and their needs
best.
So it's that changing ofmindset on both sides.
(30:30):
So one of the creative things Ido in my creative well-being
workshops is a simple mindfulbreathing exercise of drawing
around your hands so you like,breathe in as you go up, breathe
out as you go down, and do thatso that you're calming them,
calming the, calming the nervoussystem down, touching the
acupressure points, so we getour hand.
That takes away the fear of theblank page, because I've done a
(30:51):
hand drawing.
But also they've calmed theirnervous system down, they've
slowed their breathing down andthen they can write five things
that matter to them and that issuch a brilliant exercise to do
because it gets them thinkingactually what does matter to me,
and then it gets them thinkingabout what's what's really
important to them.
But yeah, that's the mindsetshift in the, in the, in the
(31:13):
health care that I train isgetting people to think actually
I have responsibility for myown health and well-being and
I'm not expecting you to fix me,I'm expecting you to support me
in this recovery journey well,you know, I can also imagine,
just even touching your hand hassome sort of therapeutic effect
too so yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's a brilliant exercise andI'm and one of the other
(31:35):
creative things.
There is well music onpercussionist and I play
washboard and I have thesegloves.
I have these gloves withthimbles on the end and I
realized I really I like playingwashboard.
It's because of the it's.
Speaker 2 (31:46):
It's literally
stimulating a whack fresh points
well yeah you're from kentucky,but uh, I have the accent
really well I have a zydeco.
Speaker 3 (31:54):
I have an original
zydeco um watch, but actually
one of the over shoulder ones.
Speaker 2 (31:58):
Yeah oh wow really
yeah well, you know, I I think
that the other part too is youtalked about thinking, taking
responsibility.
It's a common theme that Iactually had a recent podcast uh
interview where I talked aboutlike they talked about the magic
bullet and I joked around.
Well, you know, you're fromFlorida.
We don't use bullets in thenortheast, we use I call it the
(32:19):
magic wand.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah and shelaughed, obviously, but it to me
that's the other part too isthat I have a lot of people who
come in and like fix me.
Speaker 1 (32:28):
I'm like oh, let me
get the let me get the magic
wand.
Speaker 2 (32:31):
I'm like like no, I
can't fix anyone.
And you know, a common messagein finding your way through
therapy, too, that I like toremind people is that no one.
I've seen over 10,000 people inmy career.
I have fixed zero people.
I've given tools and assets andways to deal with it for people
so they can feel better andpractice it in their own lives.
Speaker 3 (32:58):
But I've never fixed
a human being in my career.
We see, that's it.
That's the problem and I thinkI think some part of is in the
marketing, especially fortherapists.
They market saying I willtransfer, I will help you
transform in xyz or this willtransform you, but nothing will
transform you unless you put thework in.
You can have the tools, you canhave the support and the peer
support and the and the sort ofaccountability to do it.
(33:18):
But you know, even an eveningcoaching, a coach is only there
to guide the person.
They're not there to tell theperson what to do, whatever.
You know, we've been talkingabout directive and
non-directive conversationskills.
Well, you're not telling theperson what to do because
they're not going to do it ifthey don't want to.
They have to want to change orhave to want to do the thing.
You know it's you could.
(33:39):
Nobody can fix somebody.
Can they?
They've, they've given thetools and the support and the
therapy, but they can't.
Actually, you know, the personhas to do the work as well well,
I would also argue that I don'tknow about you.
Speaker 2 (33:51):
But are you fixed,
because I still am working on
myself?
Speaker 3 (33:53):
oh, no, and then
actually that's implying that
we're broken.
You know, we're not broken.
We're just parts of us maybeneed some healing, but you know,
nobody's ever perfect, are theywell, except for me.
Speaker 2 (34:05):
But uh, thank you for
a modest too.
Yeah, yeah I appreciate that.
I think that it might beimportant.
You know you talked about, youknow you got diagnosed recently
in June, so only a few monthsago with ADHD yeah, yeah, and I
think that there's so manyaspects.
I think that adult ADHD andbeing diagnosed with that at a
later stage in your life and Imean later as in 30 plus,
(34:28):
because you live with it for 30years and you're like oh, now it
explains a lot.
How has it impacted your life?
Speaker 3 (34:35):
Oh, massively.
I mean, you know obviously I'vealready told you my age, so
I've got menopause to thinkabout as well.
Yeah, so just persuading mydoctor to actually allow me to
go on the waiting list to getassessed was a challenge.
So when you're already doubtingyourself, you have imposter
syndrome about we were, am Ianti?
(34:57):
You know what's going on andyou've been through menopause
and you just think you're crazyanyway, because you know most
women don't realize they've beenthrough menopause until they're
through the other side.
So it's like four or five livesof their years of their life
when they're thinking what'shappening.
To me, you know, yeah, andthere's so little understanding
about menopause in our medicalsystem.
I don't know about the americansystem, but it's just shockingly
inadequate.
(35:18):
So, yeah, you're alreadydoubting yourself, thinking
what's going on, and most of thewomen I know who have been
diagnosed late in life haverealized after they've tried to
get support for their children.
So that's, that was myexperience as well.
I was trying to get support formy daughter at school and went
through all the tests with herand recognized so much of it in
(35:38):
myself, thought, hold on aminute, that's, that's kind of
right.
Yeah, so you've already beenthrough the process for like
three or four years before youactually get to be assessed.
Thankfully, I need to wait 11months for my assessment and the
and the first thing thepsychiatrist said to me was I
have to apologize.
You've had to wait this longfor my assessment and the first
thing the psychiatrist said tome was I have to apologise that
you've had to wait this long forthis assessment, because it's
(36:00):
the most easily supported andtreatable things you can have,
and he actually apologized to methat I'd had to wait until I
was 52 to be diagnosed.
Speaker 2 (36:07):
Well, you know you
are in the UK and socialized
medicine I grew up in socializedmedicine in Canada.
The assessments here can be alittle easier to find and a
little quicker, but at a pricewhen?
When you're in socializedmedicine, you know.
I mean the wait list in Canadais outrageous also, never mind
for mental health, any type ofphysical health and diagnosing
(36:30):
and stuff like that.
So I get it and I know the UKis the same.
Speaker 1 (36:34):
Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 2 (36:35):
The menopause part is
very important too, because you
know I've had a few guests onthat talk about perimenopause,
postmenopause, menopause and howit changes a woman's.
You know they think it's oh,it's just the body.
Speaker 1 (36:50):
No, it changes a
woman's, you know, they think
it's oh, it's just a body.
Speaker 2 (36:52):
No, it changes your
mind thinks it.
Potpourri changes so manythings.
So I think it's veryunderestimated the effect on
women, what menopause and allthose menopausal symptomology
can do.
So I'm happy you got thatdiagnosis yeah, and what I've
learned?
Speaker 3 (37:02):
because the only way
this is well, you know, you talk
about socialized medicine theonly way I could get support
after my diagnosis, because thehealthcare system is such a huge
waiting list, because there'sonly in 2019, I think maybe,
yeah, 2019, that the UK NationalHealth Service recognised that
(37:22):
adults could have ADHD.
So adult ADHD.
So it's only been the last,yeah, it's only been the last
five to six years, and obviouslyall the research and testing,
like with most pharmaceuticals,has been done on white males or
men.
So there's very, very limitedunderstanding of the hormonal
cycle impact on ADHD symptomsand that's why they recognise
(37:48):
now that ADHD symptoms are moreprevalent when estrogen levels
drop.
So puberty and menopause arethe two points in a woman and a
girl's life where the ADHD ismore prevalent.
But if it's not recognized,because women and girls show
show symptoms differently to menand boys, they internalize a
(38:08):
lot.
So there's a whole lostgeneration of it's a gender,
it's a gender issue.
I'm very passionate about this.
So there's a whole generationof women and girls who have been
misdiagnosed with eatingdisorders, with mental health
issues, because they haven'trecognized the adhd symptoms in
them.
So the only way I could getsupport was to pay to train as
(38:28):
an ADHD practitioner, and that14-week training course that I
went through helped me processas I learned about what ADHD
means and how it shows up.
So, yeah, I paid for 14-weektraining, so I'm now an ADHD
practitioner as well well,that's good.
Speaker 2 (38:44):
And I, you know, 2019
, I'm like, oh my god, yeah, an
international community reallyhas to catch up.
But you know, I think that youmade made a lot of good points
here, one of the things beingthe testing has been done on
predominantly white males.
And then, you know, young girls.
I've I'm actually a childspecialist.
I don't work with childrenanymore because I can't stand
(39:05):
the parents.
I've been very open about this,but the one thing that I
realized is I had people whowould bring their, their, their
young, you know, their teenagegirls and they tell me oh,
they're defiant, they're, um,oppositional defiant or they're
bipolar yeah, and they're likewhat about?
their hormones are just out ofwhack and most people would be
(39:26):
like you're not, you can'tdiagnose that, you're not a
doctor, and I'm like I don'thave to be a doctor to use logic
, though yeah, yeah, and youknow.
Speaker 3 (39:33):
Rejection,
sensitivity, dysphoria, all
those things would affectpeople's um, ability to form
friendships, abilities to get onwith relatives and because it's
highly heritable, it's highlylikely their parents have it too
.
So the guidelines in the UK,which don't get implemented,
obviously because you know who'sholding them to account, but
(39:58):
the National Institute ofClinical Excellence, which is,
you know, they give guidance tothe UK medical professionals.
They said that if somebody getsa diagnosis of ADHD, their
family, family should also get.
They should get emotionalcoaching or support to impact
and their family should as well.
Because if you're a child andyou're diagnosed with adhd,
obviously the parents should bescreened or there should be
(40:21):
parenting advice given and viceversa, if a parent is diagnosed,
well, you know, there's a wholeload of guilt and shame about
how you parented withoutrealizing you had a, didn't have
adhd, and all that sort ofthing.
So yeah, it's, it's, it's, it'squite a big kind of worm, sir,
you know I mean it.
Speaker 2 (40:41):
It changes how you
know the emotional impact that
we have, because sometimes youknow what, know what?
I again, I'm not a woman, soI'm not going to pretend I am
but how it affects youemotionally and the impact it
has on you, because you thinkyou're crazy, you think you're
going crazy or whatever.
I mean.
That just changes everything.
When you know there's adiagnosis, such as ADHD or ADD,
(41:02):
that can play a factor in howyou're feeling in regards to
your menopause, yourperimenopause, that can play a
factor in how you're feeling inregards to your menopause your
perimenopause, yourpostmenopausal stuff?
Speaker 3 (41:12):
Yes, but actually I
had to reverse that because for
the last 30 years I've been toldI was crazy.
I've been told, oh, you'rementally ill or you're depressed
or you're anxious.
But actually that was the finalpiece of the jigsaw and I
thought, no, I'm not, I'm okay,I got IDHD right.
So actually that was theacceptance part.
So this year has been the firstyear I've fully accepted myself
for the first time in my life,and it's been brilliant wow, no
(41:34):
but the problem is the peoplehave been calling me crazy last
30 years, but they don't knowhow to deal with it.
So, um, you know, I kind of haveto let them go, you know well,
I, I need to.
Speaker 2 (41:45):
I know you said you
accepted yourself.
You need to talk to me off,offline here, because that's
that's the best thing in theworld accepting oneself, I think
, is the hardest thing we couldever do that's carl young, isn't
it yeah?
It is a union belief system yes, yeah, I, I am.
I quoted him in my book, yeahwell, you know I and and you
(42:05):
know the the other part too is,you know I I'll tell you my view
of craziness and you cancorrect me if you think I'm a
little out there and I'm finebeing out there like we're all
crazy.
We're all crazy differently,but we're all crazy, um, and
it's really accepting where yourcrazy's at, if you need some
support, if you need some help,or if you can do it on your own
(42:26):
or you can do it with therapy ora group, but ultimately
realizing that we all have alittle side like that.
Speaker 3 (42:31):
It's not that we're
crazy, we're just not fitting
into anybody's box and they getpissed off about it yeah, well,
you see, I'm, I'm trying to, I'munderstanding, I'm unpacking
the whole neuro, neurodiverse,neurotypical versus neurotypical
thing and there's an argumentthat actually you know, the the
term add or adhd, the disorderbit, actually is probably not,
(42:53):
shouldn't be in the dsm really,because, um, you know the
diagnostic manual, because it'snot a mental health disorder,
it's, it's just a spectrum ofhow our brains function.
I, just I, just because ourbrains process dopamine and
other neurotransmittersdifferently.
So it's, it's an interestingdebate.
And then there's a whole low.
(43:14):
I mean, obviously, you know yousort of get involved in all the
different, um, different uhgroups then, don't you?
But it's a different debateabout is it an illness?
It's not an illness, it's justa different developmental
condition, isn't it?
Speaker 2 (43:27):
and I think that
that's where we need to move,
also in the mental health realm,in my opinion.
Is that their conditions?
You know?
Speaker 3 (43:34):
um, it's the
difference.
It's just a difference, andwe're all different.
Nobody's the same.
Even twins aren't the same, arethey?
Speaker 2 (43:39):
I mean, they've still
got slight differences yeah,
and I recommend anyone who wantsto go look at twin studies
where they separated at birth.
They'll show you that you knowyour environment impacts you as
much as your genetics.
But yeah, no, I think that it'sabsolutely true that you know.
If when I tell people like whatmy biggest pet peeve is when
people say I'm ADHD or I'mbipolar or I'm depressed, no,
(44:01):
you're not, you have thatcondition.
Speaker 3 (44:04):
It's like I'm
toenails or I'm fingernails,
isn't it?
Speaker 2 (44:12):
You have fingernails
but you're not fingernails.
Yeah, I mean that.
That's the.
That's the bottom line.
I think that when we have, youcan call it a disorder, if you
wish.
And condition I like better.
I think I'm going to startstealing that from you because
it really is a condition.
You know, like I, I grew upwith my own trauma.
I I have my trauma from my work, but it's not not who I am.
I'm not Mr PTSD.
I just happen to be a therapist, a human being who's a father,
who's a boyfriend, who's a son,who's a friend, who's a neighbor
(44:35):
, who happens to have some sortof post-traumatic stress
disorder in my life.
So, I like to change that view.
For people, we're, not ourdisorders or our conditions.
Speaker 3 (44:48):
Yeah, and that goes
hand in hand with how you
validate yourself, isn't it?
Because you don't validateyourself by your bank account or
how much you're earning or whatjob you are or what people
think of you.
You know, you have tointernally validate yourself as
yourself, and that was the onething that you talked about.
The emotional impact, that wasthe one thing that I've had to
I'm still coming to terms with,is who am I?
Because I've had this identityfor the last well, at least the
(45:12):
last 15, 16 years is oh, I'm atrauma survivor, or I'm this or
I'm that.
But I've got to ref, I've gotto see all that through a
different lens now and say, oh,okay, well, I can understand why
that happened, but I didn'tknow and the resources I had at
the time.
I felt like that.
But actually I completelyunderstand now and it's a whole
new shedding of you know stuffthat the stories retelling your
(45:37):
story, basically.
So the good thing is I've gotanother book in me now, because
I've got to rewrite the wholebook that I published last year
through a neurodiverse lens.
Keep me busy.
Speaker 2 (45:48):
Well, I published
last year through a neurodiverse
lens.
Keep me busy.
Well, I'm going to definitelylink the book into the show
notes.
The other thing I want toreally link in the show notes is
your six-week coaching andrecovery program that you talked
about.
Can you tell me?
Speaker 3 (45:58):
more about it well,
yeah, it's kind of a.
It's the development because Iwas in my old, you know, before
I um, before I did the wholeADHD diagnosis, I was a stress
and resilience coach and I did aresilience reset type coaching
program where I took peoplethrough a burnout recovery
(46:18):
journey to try and help themunderstand the behaviors that
were leading them to burnout.
So really, the resilience resetis supporting.
So really the resilience resetis supporting.
I'm really focused onneurodivergent women, because
that's my passion now is to getwomen to understand the many
barriers and inequalities theyface in their life.
And neurodivergent women,that's a an extra one.
It's basically a three month, asix week sorry, a six week
(46:42):
process where we have coachingcalls and I give share tools and
I give you WhatsApp supportover the six weeks to help you
start thinking.
You know, where am I now,what's brought, what's got me to
stage where I am and where do Iwant to be basically well, I'm
going to definitely put that inthe show notes.
I think that's a great idea andwith the coaching for over six
weeks and talking to someone isimportant because it can be a
(47:04):
lonely process, if you ask me ohso isolating, yeah, really
isolating, because you say youdon't know who you are and if
all the things you believedabout yourself and the people
around you have believed aboutyou, you just have to be
unpicked and reframed, basicallyand I can't remember who said
this, but everything you knowabout yourself is wrong.
Speaker 2 (47:25):
That's basically what
you're being told.
Speaker 3 (47:29):
Yeah, and I say our
brains, carol Dweck's work on
mindset and growth and all thedifferent mindsets.
Our brains are constantlyrenewing ourselves and
constantly malleable and shapedby our environment, so much that
actually we can be anything wewant to be.
We just have to believe it andactually support ourselves to
(47:51):
shed anything that's stopping usfrom doing it and just go and
do it, you know and I think thatthat's the important part is
just do it.
Speaker 2 (47:58):
Um, in my office, in
my uh this is my studio, so to
speak, but my office there's asign that says do or do not.
There is no try.
I know I stole it from yoda, uh, but nonetheless, I think that
that's the important part isjust doing it and getting you
know, getting in that direction.
Speaker 3 (48:12):
So having a coach,
having someone to guide you, so
much more helpful yeah, and Ithink the key thing about having
a coach is they can ask you theawkward questions that you
might not ask yourself becauseyou feel uncomfortable about
them, so they can help youreflect in a safe space, without
you know, and work through thatfear.
One of the one of the besttools that I use with the health
(48:33):
coaches and with my coachingclients is the ambivalence grid,
because it takes the fear outof well, if I do do it, what
will happen if I don't?
If I don't, if you do do, whatwon't happen?
If I don't do it, what willhappen if I don't do?
What will happen?
And just taking that fear outof any things well, could you
know, it helps you to do it in asafe space and uh, yeah, you
wouldn't do that for yourself.
Really, you'd sort of stay inyour comfort zone, wouldn't you?
Speaker 2 (48:55):
right.
Well, what I usually say topeople too is if you know that
thought in your head that you'venever said out loud, say it out
loud.
And when they do say it outloud, I'm like oh, that sounds
ridiculous.
When I say it, I'm like yeah,because it stays stuck in your
brain all this time.
So it sounded logical until yousaid it out loud, so I'm happy
that you did so.
Sometimes it's getting out.
Speaker 3 (49:13):
That takes that
ambivalence and clears it up for
you and if you tap while you'redoing it, you're nice and calm,
so yeah, see you got you.
Speaker 2 (49:21):
You're just putting a
nice bow on our whole
conversation.
Um, I'm going to obviously linkall this stuff, but how do
people reach you?
Speaker 3 (49:29):
I'm on Instagram at
Resilience Rebel On Instagram.
I'm on LinkedIn, anne DiamondChangemaker, and I've also got a
Resilience Rebel page which Idon't put very much on.
I'm saying it's quite new, andI've got my website,
resiliencerebelcom.
Speaker 1 (49:43):
Great website, that's
how I linked up with ann I
looked it up.
Speaker 2 (49:52):
But um and diamond,
thank you so much see I practice
a lot, I'll remember.
Yeah, I also put it in a uh howI would pronounce it right here
.
So that way I said it right, uh, thank you so much for your
time and on a just a personalnote, I thank you more than
you'll ever know.
So thank you for that andhopefully people will go and
follow you and go do thecoaching stuff with you.
Speaker 3 (50:11):
Thank you.
It's been a real pleasure andhonor to talk to you, Steve.
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (50:15):
Well, this concludes
episode 169.
Thank you so much, Anne.
I really appreciate it.
Go and do a recovery program.
Go, reach out to everythingthat you can, including her book
and her former podcast.
If I can find it, it should bein the show notes.
But in episode 170, we're goingto meet with Sarah Waite and I
(50:35):
can't wait for you to talk toher.
But that's the next episode andI hope to see you then.
Speaker 1 (50:40):
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(51:03):
This number is available in theUnited States and Canada.