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December 4, 2024 49 mins

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After enduring a traumatic brain injury, Daniel Gospodarek transformed his life and career, becoming a licensed therapist driven by personal experience and professional expertise. Join us for a compelling conversation with Daniel, owner of Revitalized Mental Health, as he shares his profound journey from recovery to becoming a specialist in various therapeutic techniques like Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, EMDR, and Acceptance and Commitment Therapy. Daniel reveals how his personal battles have shaped his approach to therapy, offering a unique perspective on the intersection of personal growth and professional practice.

We delve into the unique challenges faced by military personnel and first responders, tackling the urgent need for early intervention in acute stress disorders to prevent the escalation to PTSD. Our discussion illuminates the complexities of seeking mental health support amidst cultural stigmas and the delicate balance between using insurance versus private pay for therapy. Through Daniel's experiences, we explore the vital importance of mental health stability in professions fraught with frequent traumatic events and their broader implications on community safety.

Discover the transformative power of therapeutic relationships as we explore Acceptance and Commitment Therapy and its role in building psychological resilience. We highlight the significance of authentic connections in therapy, emphasizing the importance of self-care for therapists to manage vicarious trauma. Enjoy practical advice on navigating holiday stress and family dynamics, with insights into setting boundaries and choosing peaceful interactions during gatherings. This episode promises to enrich your understanding of mental well-being through the lens of professional knowledge and personal insight.

Please visit Daniel’s website at http://revitalizementalhealth.com/ 

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Episode Transcript

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Announcer (00:03):
Hi and welcome to Finding your Way Through Therapy
.
A proud member of thePsychCraft Network, the goal of
this podcast is to demystifytherapy, what can happen in
therapy and the wide array ofconversations you can have in
and about therapy Throughpersonal experiences.
Guests will talk about therapy,their experiences with it and

(00:24):
how psychology and therapy arepresent in many places in their
lives, with lots of authenticityand a touch of humor.
Here is your host, steve Bisson.

Steve Bisson (00:37):
Alors, que faites-vous pour vos fêtes?
What are you doing for theholidays?
Hi and welcome to episode 181of Finding your Way Through
Therapy.
If you haven't listened toepisode 180, I talk about
sobriety and recovery and howthat plays a factor during the
holidays.
Hi and welcome to episode 181of Finding your Way Through
Therapy.
If you haven't listened toepisode 180, I talk about
sobriety and recovery and howthat plays a factor during the
holidays or at any time, and wetalk a little bit about the
modalities of how to gettreatment and what the
difference is.
So I hope you go back andlisten to that.
But episode 181 will be withDaniel Gospodarek.

(01:00):
I hope I got it right.
He'll correct me if I'm wrong,but he is the owner of
Revitalized Mental Health.
He works out of Wisconsin andis also licensed in Colorado.
He is someone who had a TBIwhen he was younger and has
decided to become a therapistand help people with different
types of treatment, includingCBT, among other things, as well

(01:24):
as EMDR.
What I also like is, I think,that he's going to talk about
hopefully he's going to talkabout cognitive processing
therapy as well as somaticexperiencing with Peter Levine.
So anyway, here's the interview.
Getfreeai yes, you've heard metalk about it previously in

(01:47):
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(02:08):
what the client is saying,because it is keeping track of
what you're saying and willcreate, after the end of every
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Not only does it create aprogress note, it also gives you
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(02:29):
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It saves me time, it saves me alot of aggravation and it just
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(02:51):
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(03:12):
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(03:34):
So, getfreeai code Steve50 tosave $50 on your first month.
Well, hi everyone and welcome toepisode 181.
You know one of the catchessometimes you get guests and you
get them through differentchannels.
I have met Daniel GaspadarikOkay, I can't pronounce your

(03:56):
last name, daniel Gaspadarik,thank you very much Through
Facebook.
It was an interesting story,not because of anything else,
but you guys know I work withthe military.
But you guys know I work withthe military.
You guys know I work with thefirst responder world and I work
with trauma in general.
I'm an EMDR clinician and I'mnot registered, I'm just very
trained.
That's about it.
But his story really hit mewhen he was giving me some

(04:20):
tidbits about it, so I welcomedhim to the show.
So, daniel, welcome to Findingyour Way Through Therapy.

Daniel Gospodarek (04:26):
Hey, thank you so much for having me, Steve
.
I'm happy to be here and justshare my experience and
knowledge with your listeners.

Steve Bisson (04:35):
Well, there's so many things that struck me, so
I'm going to have a lot ofquestions, particularly about
ACT, because that's something Ilike, but people have not
explained it properly.
But we're not going to jumpthere first.
I just want to put that as ateaser.
I didn't even explain what ACTis yet, so we'll put it as a
teaser for people.
But the first thing I'll knowis tell me about yourself, tell

(04:58):
my audience about yourself, whatyou do, how your life is, so to
speak, sure.

Daniel Gospodarek (05:00):
So I'm currently I'm a licensed
clinical social worker andlicensed in Wisconsin as well as
in Colorado, and originallyfrom Wisconsin but lived in
Colorado for a period of periodof my life.
And but really, what kind ofkind of the part that led me to
this whole?
you know, master's in socialwork LCSW route was a car

(05:23):
accident in July of 2009.
And that resulted in atraumatic brain injury for me
and then going through thesubsequent recovery process and
you know all those differentdynamics, working with a
counselor specifically aroundlike anger and it's a pretty
hallmark symptom of a traumaticbrain injury.

(05:44):
So so working around that andthen, you know, led led me to my
social work degree and for mybachelor's level and then a
master's eventually.
But yeah, that's kind of like anumber of years in the process.
So kind of kind of let youshare if you have questions
around around some of thosecomponents.

Steve Bisson (06:03):
The first question I have is did you serve in the
military yourself?

Daniel Gospodarek (06:07):
I did not, no um.
So my, my traumatic braininjury was when I was 17 and it
was severe enough where I wasn'tyeah, well, yeah, it's always
interesting yeah, I would.
I would be.
I would be more of a liabilityin some sort of in some of those
situations than an asset.

Steve Bisson (06:25):
So Well, I just didn't know your age, so that's
why, like for me, 2009 is notthat long ago for a lot of
people, but for me, I wasalready in my thirties by then,
so yeah, yeah, no, I was 17.

Daniel Gospodarek (06:36):
So, yeah, I just been released from the
hospital and then turned 18.

Steve Bisson (06:41):
So Okay, well, no, but that's great to hear that.
You know you.
You you've surpassed all theseissues that come from that, so I
really want to hear more aboutthat.
I guess one of the standardquestions that are probably very
related to this, the standardquestion on finding your way
through therapy, is have youever been in therapy?
So my question is have you everbeen in?

Daniel Gospodarek (07:01):
therapy.
Yeah, I wouldn't say it waslike structured.
You know, I think sometimeswhen people think of therapy
they think like psychodynamictherapy, where you're laying on
a couch or you know EMDR therapyor something like that.
It was more just talk therapyand it was a few years after my
car accident.
But some of the especially forpeople not familiar with tbis

(07:25):
the symptoms can linger andsometimes they never go away
right in terms of memorychallenges, attention challenges
, mood challenges or anger,sleep, insomnia, not sleeping
enough or or sleeping too much,and then also just the the
physical limitations that cancome with tbis sometimes.
Sometimes there's, you know,sometimes people are paralyzed,

(07:45):
sometimes people don't have useof certain limbs or sometimes
people lose limbs, depending onthe TBI accident or situation
that happened.
So for me the counseling came Iwant to say like maybe three,
two, three years afterwards ofthe TBI, because I tried all
those other things you know yoga, meditation, working out, just

(08:07):
fitness and trying to manage it.
But it wasn't enough and Ineeded.
I needed an outlet, a differentsort of outlet.

Steve Bisson (08:13):
But I guess one of the questions I had, you
mentioned anger, which is a verycommon theme in the TBI world.
Did you do the counselingaround that too, or was it
something?
Yeah?

Daniel Gospodarek (08:22):
that that was specifically why I I needed
that.
That.
That counseling was to supportjust working through some of
that anger, because it's a verypowerful emotion.
It's a very it can be a veryadaptive emotion, right,
especially for people who are inlife-threatening situations
like you need that energy, youneed that just almost like brute

(08:42):
force that comes with it.
But with tbis it's differentbecause it's almost just like a
hair trigger of like somebodyclangs a glass and then you're
zero to a hundred.
You don't need, like you know,you don't need that level of
anger, and that was like I need,I need, I need some support
around this you know my I've hadlimited experience with tbi, so

(09:04):
I'll start off with thatcomment.

Steve Bisson (09:06):
However, I've dealt with a few people who've
had TBIs and one of the thingsthey explain with their anger is
that I used to be able to doblank whatever we're talking
about Now.
I can't and I feel powerless.
And I'm 25, I'm 20, whateverage they're at.
That seems stupid and they getreally down on themselves and
that's why the burst of angeroccurs.
So that's also what I've seen.

Daniel Gospodarek (09:28):
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
And that burst of anger, right,because of what you could do
beforehand, but what you can'tdo now, right.
And then also this piece oflike who you were before and who
you are now, so meaning likemaybe there's, maybe there's
physical limitations afterwards,right, but that also means that
maybe friends you can't hangout with certain friends anymore

(09:49):
because you lose, and you losethat social identity aspect.
And then there's grief and lossthat shows up, right, and anger
is one of those stages of griefand loss as well.
So, absolutely, I mean, theseare very, very intricate
dynamics that are happening.
Or even if your sleep cycle'soff and you're more irritable
right Now, that irritability canquickly morph into anger, right

(10:12):
.
One of the things with TBIs islike if you get hit in the head,
sometimes you're moresusceptible to concussions or
future TBIs and then you bumpyour head and then you get
pissed right, right, so it's avery complex piece to live with
or future TBIs, and then youbump your head and then you get
pissed right, right, so it's avery complex piece to live with.
And obviously the caveat thereis depends on the severity of

(10:33):
the initial TBI, right,sometimes you know a concussion
playing football or something.
It may not reach that level ofsensitivity thereafter.
Right.

Steve Bisson (10:46):
But depending on if it is very severe, right.
Well, I think that I like thefact that they're starting to
now see the ctes, particularlyin professional sports, as part
of tbi, and they used to call italzheimer's or early onset
dementia or whatever right um,and they're really now tying it
to tbi, which I think is a moreaccurate statement personally,
but you know one of the thingsthat you also mentioned that I

(11:07):
like to talk about, because oneof my other specialties is grief
, and you talked about the griefand I always people always
think, oh, it's a loss of aperson.
I'm like no, grief's a lotbigger than that.
And for you.
You talked about the grief andhow difficult it is to kind of
like you know whether it'slosing vocabulary, losing some
abilities.
Some people lose, you know,parts of using their limbs.

(11:29):
Right, we're going to extremeshere, but that does occur.
Do you talk about that when youdo therapy with other people?
In particular grief?

Daniel Gospodarek (11:36):
Yeah, oh yeah , I mean grief comes up in a lot
of different dynamics, not justTBI, I mean it comes up in,
just, you know, somebody justlost somebody that's near and
dear to them or something that'svery important.
But then also trauma and howthat impacts identity,
especially identity formation onwho could I have been if this
didn't impact my development?
Or you know, even likeinfidelity, right, there's grief

(11:59):
and loss in that right, whenyou put that trust in somebody
and it's betrayed.
So that betrayal, trauma, butyeah, I mean the grief, the
grief and loss you know, for forpeople can be very, very
difficult even to notice atcertain points, or it may not
come for a year or two afteryou're able to self reflect,

(12:21):
right, right.
So, for for me, one of the oneof the big shifts for me was I
went from being very activephysically to having to pause
that right Because I couldn'tput pressure on my head, even
blood pressure, right, right.
So you know, not being able towork out for a few months was
very, was very difficult andvery restless for me.

(12:43):
Or you know, being 17 it's allabout, like young adulthood,
being able to have freedom anddriving, right, but they took
your, they took my license, sonow I'm kind of stuck right, no
grief there whatsoever a 17 yearold kid, right yeah.
So you know your friends aretalking about bonfires and stuff
on the weekends but you're notable to go.

(13:04):
So you know your friends aretalking about bonfires and stuff
on the weekends but you're notable to go Right.
One because maybe you can'tdrive, but two because you're
also.
One of the other hallmarks ofTBIs is fatigue, and I was in
bed by seven o'clock and usuallybonfires in the summer don't
start at seven o'clock.
So Correct.

Steve Bisson (13:20):
I mean unless you're in the Antarctic.
But that's a different storyfor a different day.

Daniel Gospodarek (13:24):
Yes, so those are some of those dynamics that
show up right of grief and losslater on.

Steve Bisson (13:32):
I think that grief is everywhere.
You know, when you transitionout of college, you transfer to
college, you go to a differentjob.
I'm working with several peoplenow who are in the retirement
transition and there's a lot ofgrief and loss that goes from
that.
So, yeah, I just wanted to putit out there because I like
having my guests talk aboutgrief, because I'm done hearing

(13:53):
oh, it's only when you losesomeone.
I'm like I wish it was justthat.

Daniel Gospodarek (13:56):
It's so much easier.
Oh yeah, there's so much moreto that.

Steve Bisson (14:01):
So you know I mentioned the military earlier
and the reason why I mentionedthat is because I know you work
with a lot of military personnel, current and former.
Can you tell us more about thatwork?

Daniel Gospodarek (14:11):
Yeah, I mean so, obviously, protecting, you
know, dynamic, certain certainpieces of information, but
usually, usually, that workrevolves around some sort of
stress or stressor or trauma,either, you know, reintegrating
into the society, or somethingthat happened, you know, years

(14:31):
ago that hasn't been dealt with.
And you know, I think there'sstill this very big adage of
like or belief that if we say weneed help, we're we're, we're
less than or weak in some way,and we often forget that it
takes a lot of courage just tojust to come to that conclusion
in and of itself but then toreach out and ask for somebody.

(14:52):
But I think, yeah, a lot of itkind of on that same note, is
like we don't have to live, justlike with these chains dragging
behind us and we're missing outon a lot of different things,
when, when, when we are beingheld back.
But yeah, first, firstresponders, military, could be
very you know how do I want tosay it you know something,

(15:15):
something very, very recentlythat happened, or something that
happened years ago.
Right, like you're, you'retrained in emdr, so there are
different, different emdrprotocols to utilize.
Right, there's the, the fullprotocol for things that are
less than you know, more thansix months and then you can go
like em I, movement anddesensitization, or emd, and
become very laser pointed oncertain things that recently

(15:38):
happened.
So, yeah, you don't have tolike, you don't have to just
like bear it for a year or two.
It could be, like you know,this happened last month, like
you got to take the charge offof it.

Steve Bisson (15:51):
Well, you know I was doing a CIT training, which
is a crisis intervention teamwith police and police.
Do that now.
And one of the things Iexplained not only for the
people in the community, I saideven for you guys in the in the
first responder world.
Something happens and it kindof bothers you.
You don't want to say it infront of the guys and the gals
you work with, that's fine,that's okay, I don't have a

(16:12):
problem with that, but addressit immediately because that
becomes, you know, instead ofhaving that's an acute stress
disorder and you can addressthat fairly quickly.
You caught about EMD and youyou know there's also some
that's called EMDR 2.0 and aDutch person came up with that.
It's like six weeks, and it'ssuper quick.

(16:33):
But I explained to them thatfor you don't want things to
become post-traumatic stressdisorder because those can
accumulate.
So if you're able to address itin the front as an acute stress
disorder, it makes things somuch easier.

Daniel Gospodarek (16:47):
Yeah, on yourself and those around you.
Right, because then it doesn'tfester and impact interpersonal
relationships, finances, workrelationships and or work
productivity, right.
Right, because oftentimes, like, if you're on, if you're, if
you're involved in those typesof situations that created it in
the first place, the likelihoodof it happening again in the

(17:09):
future is also there.
And then you have like thiscompounded effect.
If you're not, if you're alsonot addressing them as they roll
in, right, right, and thenlooking at disconnection from
emotions, dissociation,disconnection with children If
you have children in the house,like all these different things,

(17:29):
challenges with sleep.
So yeah, it's better just totake care of it if you can.
But yeah, I mean, if you don'tfeel comfortable talking about
it with people, because there iskind of that, that stigma, and
I also think there's all there'sone of.
The one of the pieces that Ialso talk about too is how, like
I don't know, I don't knowabout your practice but I'm only
private pay, so like I don't, Idon't have to manage the

(17:51):
diagnosis piece, because thatthen enters your medical chart,
right, and that can come back toinfluence certain things later
down the line life, maybe, lifeinsurance, you know, approval or
purchasing life insurance ifthere's ever like unemployment
and you have to buy insurance inthe marketplace, right.
So all those different pieceskind of come up right come into

(18:14):
play.

Steve Bisson (18:14):
right, it does definitely come up and you know
the other part too that you knowyou talked about um, ptsd and
private pay.
I actually take insurance justbecause of where I'm at in this
area in Massachusetts.
I highly likely could goself-pay when I know that would
deter at least half of my firstresponders, if not more.
And for me you know as I jokearound and people have heard me

(18:36):
on the podcast so I always say,like working with first
responders are currently in thecommunity.
I don't know about you, but Iwant my first responders to be
very stable in the community.
Because I live in the community, I want to be stable for me and
for them, and so that's why,like I talk about the treatment
being so important, especially.
You know EMDR, ptsd and I can'tremember the exact stat.

(18:58):
You can look it up if you wishand if you say, steve, you're
wrong, just drop me a DM andthat's fine with me.
But I think the stat issomething like regular people
will see five to 10 traumaticevents in their lifetime.

Daniel Gospodarek (19:14):
First responders particularly law
enforcement, is more close to800.
Yeah, I don't know.
I'm not familiar with that stat.
I think one of the recent blogposts I wrote, like last month
it was around like 80% of firstresponders so EMTs, firefighters
, not just police 80% will haveexperienced a traumatic event at
one time in their work career,with that number then escalating

(19:37):
depending on certainprofessions and stuff like that.
So it's very prevalent, right,and they can, even if they're
like the little T traumas oreven if I haven't heard that in
a while, they're Bessel.
Yeah, right, right, like thelittle, the little T traumas
that you know.
Maybe there is no loss of lifein a car accident that you've

(19:59):
come up on, but it still lookspretty horrific, right Like
those things build and theyleave their marks in the nervous
system and and I love how emdrand I'm also in the are you
familiar with somaticexperiencing train?
I am, but maybe my audienceisn't so, yeah, so that that was
developed by peter levine.
Um, it's a emdr is a bottom-upform of therapy.

(20:22):
Somatic experiencing is a formof bottom-up therapy or instead
of top-down meaning, like Stevementioned, act, acceptance and
commitment therapy, and that'smore of a top-down therapy.
But really what I'm trying toexplain is that when we
experience those levels ofstress, overwhelm or fear for

(20:43):
our safety or other people'ssafety, they can leave those
marks on our nervous system andthose marks can then just kind
of fester and then createsymptoms of, you know, more
reactivity versus responsiveness, right.
More impulsivity or maybe moreworry, more hyper vigilance,
right.
So you're not meeting that PTSDthreshold, but there's some

(21:04):
sort of nervous systemdysregulation going on.
That EMDR and somaticexperiencing can help realign
and re-regulate those systems.

Steve Bisson (21:15):
And I mentioned.
I know his name's Daniel.
He's not really Bessel van derKolk, but anyone who's
interested.
The body keeps the score.
I find that for people in ourfield it's pretty cool.
I've had a hit or miss with thecommunity reading it.
They say this is boring as hellbecause it can be intensive.
But other people have said no,this changed my life and Peter

(21:37):
Levine is someone I met at acouple of conferences, truly,
truly love that man and I thinkthat what you talk you know like
I want to make sure that peopleknew about that because it's
such an important part of how wetreat now because he really
gets for lack of a better word,you talk about top down versus
bottom up.
I call it intervention so itdoesn't affect you in the long

(22:00):
term and Peter is brilliant,brilliant, brilliant human being
.
For that I highly recommend hisstuff.

Daniel Gospodarek (22:07):
Yeah, yeah, you know, and, and I think like
that, that Peter does a reallyamazing job of of also
describing and teaching that,like you know, for for first
responders and our military Iknow we've been kind of talking
about those populations so I'llkeep it kind of honed in there
but it's also like, not so muchjust like were you in a life

(22:30):
threatening situation?
Right, it could be like you wereon a ladder trying to help
somebody get out of a burningbuilding and you fell or slipped
and almost fell, right, right.
Or you know what somebody Iknow from high school was in the
military and you know, it waslike maybe 2011, 2012, 2013,.
And an explosion went off rightabove their outpost and he fell

(22:53):
down and had a concussion,right, so like, like those
components, it's not like wereyou, were you shot at?
Yes or no?
Right, it was like didsomething happen that where you
feared, consciously orunconsciously, for your
well-being?
And peter has this one, thisone uh video too, that he that's
shown in the train trainings oflike a surfer, feeling that

(23:17):
something was wrong and noticinga dorsal fin was following him
as he was paddling right andlike that is, you know, threat
to self or from a predator rightAn apex predator.

Steve Bisson (23:29):
And those can even leave those, leave those
nervous system dysregulationpieces in yeah, and you know,
the example I also give forcommunity members is I had a
client who works withelectricity and felt his hair
get really, really like well, Idon't have any, so just pretend
here when he got too close to ahigh voltage situation and it

(23:52):
freaked him out for severalmonths because he's like I
almost died and I'm like youdidn't die, you know, and
regrounding and getting in frontof it versus let's wait until
it's trauma and address it.
But you know that affects youand affects your day-to-day.
Thankfully he was able to getback to his job, do everything
that he's supposed to.
But yeah, I think that that'swhy, like techniques like
peter's are better to get thereversus emdr.

Daniel Gospodarek (24:15):
Not that emdr is not good and sufficient,
it's just different levels yeah,and I think they both play
their place and I think when you, when you, when you get to also
a level, a clinician, you justkind of interweave them in and
there's a lot of beauty.

Steve Bisson (24:31):
Yeah, and I think that that's what it is People
who work with trauma or acutestress, and particularly with
military personnel.
You talked about firstresponders.
Let's not forget ourdispatchers, and particularly in
the military personnel, theCoast Guard people who are the
first responders of the militarypersonnel, the Coast Guard
people who are the firstresponders of the military
personnel.
Not that there isn't in otherbranches, I'm just saying that
they're primarily their job.

(24:52):
You know, they also go throughsome of that stuff and it's very
important to kind of like putthem out there, because the
dispatch gets forget too often.

Daniel Gospodarek (25:00):
Yeah, but also frontline nursing staff.

Steve Bisson (25:02):
Correct.
I think that that's why I keepit Like I run a group for first
responders and it is for allthose individuals, because you
can't limit it.
You know, I think that mostpeople think about firefighters
and at least when we say firstresponders, they're so much
bigger and it can affect you,like dispatch, being in a call.
Suddenly you hear like a shotor you hear something and then

(25:24):
it hangs up and you don't knowwhat's going on for five minutes
.
Yet you got to take the nextcall that's coming through, that
kind of can be traumatic formost people.

Daniel Gospodarek (25:31):
Oh yeah, or you, you have to be in those
calls where people can't talktoo loud or they're talking
almost in, almost in code,because of certain dynamics and
their residents or where they'reat, and you just kind of have
to be there in this it's.
It's a very strange position tobe like wanting to do something
and wanting to act quickly, butlike also keeping that governor
on and and you're just kind ofstuck.

(25:53):
Um, it is peter levine'strainings they talk a lot about
like inescapable attack, likewhen you, when you can't fight,
but you, you know you want to,but you can't because a it won't
, won't work out well and you'reyou know, it's kind of yeah,
I'm going to charge peter forall this advertisement we're
giving him perfect he's awonderful training too for

(26:16):
therapists that are that arelistening for the somatic
experiencing and nervous systemregulation.

Steve Bisson (26:22):
It's incredible he's just an amazing guy.
You know you talked aboutacceptance and commitment
therapy a little earlier on.
You know you ran it reallyquickly and we talked about
other stuff.
But I want to get back to itbecause one of the things is I
know a lot of people.
When I read the book on ACT I'mlike I already did this, like
oh, I guess there is a name forit, but I guess I want you to

(26:45):
explain a little more what ACT,or acceptance and commitment
therapy, looks like, how you useit also in your practice.

Daniel Gospodarek (26:58):
For sure.
So ACT, acceptance andcommitment therapy's main goal
is to increase somebody'spsychological flexibility, and
that means kind of just ridingwith the stress of life, not
getting caught up by too manydifferent things, but also being
able to let go of certainthings.
And you know that, can you know?
Taking that a step further,that could be like, oh, like,
maybe somebody had a really pooror like was shocked by like a
work performance review, butthen that goes on for the next

(27:18):
you know two, three months andit disrupts their functioning or
their life and how they work.
Versus, like, act would kind oftarget some of those pieces and
try to get that psychologicalflexibility that maybe.
Maybe there's just somedysregulation or something for
like a week or two, right, um,but then then it kind of rolls
off the back.
But act is underpinned by it'scalled the hexaflex, but in

(27:40):
people can google it right butit essentially is diffusion oh,
I haven't thought about this ina minute.
Diffusion, uh, values, present,moment, focus and then, um, I'm
blanking on a couple right now.

Steve Bisson (27:55):
I know I'm blanking too.
It's.
I haven't heard that word in along time so I apologize, I can
pull it up quick well, I'll putit in the show notes when I do
find it perfect, because I'mblanking you.
You already got me in the thirdone.
I'm like a crap, yeah, self iscontext, acceptance and
committed action.

Daniel Gospodarek (28:16):
So present moment, focus, values, committed
action, self is context,diffusion and then acceptance.
And essentially they call it ahexaflex because your
interventions can bounce backand forth In diffusion.
So fusion meaning something isvery close together.
Think of like welding rightVery tight.

(28:36):
Diffusion is creating space.
So space meaning like you havea negative thought and then it
leads to like a poor moodresponse right, or like maybe
you're feeling sad.
So diffusion would try tocreate some space so that
thought doesn't influence themood dynamic, like that directly
.
And then selfless context islike how do we see ourself in

(28:57):
relation to who we are or how doother people see us?
And then values, committedaction, acceptance.
And then all the whole game ofworking around through those
types of interventions is toincrease psychological
flexibility so and I think thatthat's you know.

Steve Bisson (29:15):
You don't need to go through a traumatic response,
whether in the military orfirst responder world, in order
to bring that home.
Sometimes most people one of my, my, hopefully, people
listening to this podcast andpeople who know my work I want
to break the thing about oh, allfirst responders is trauma?
Nope, sometimes it's not trauma, it's other stuff that happens.

(29:37):
You bring it home because of X,y, z reason, and the vicarious
trauma that can come fromhearing like really bad stories
from other people come fromhearing like really bad stories
from other people.
And, for the record, whiletherapists are not first
responders, I encourage themstrongly to think about their
vicarious trauma regularly inorder to unload it.

Daniel Gospodarek (29:54):
Yeah, I mean and just to piggyback on that, I
mean therapists are one levelof you know, the helping
profession, but also the peoplewho are therapists in hospital
settings, departments ofcorrections, like you really see
a lot, or inpatient psychiatrichospitals, right, or
community-based mental healthservices, um, doing in-home

(30:17):
visits like those, those are,yeah, I mean, seeking your own
therapy, for being in thehelping profession is also very
therapy for being in the helpingprofession is also very, very
much okay.

Steve Bisson (30:35):
Right, and you know, on the government level,
the child and family servicesand youth services, or whatever
they call it in your state orprovince or you know, whatever
county, they also see a wholelot of different things and it's
important to think about that.
But I appreciate you explaininga little more and thank you for
also catching me on hexaplexyeah, I was like oh crap I know
I was like so, um, and just justfor the record, a good thing

(30:56):
for you if you're listening.
Daniel and I just proved onething while we are versed in
what we do, we are by far notperfect and we still forget shit
yeah, and that's the part aboutbeing human right.

Daniel Gospodarek (31:09):
Like nobody's perfect, I mean we can't.

Steve Bisson (31:12):
We can't always be 100 on and have all the
information at our fingertips,so that's why there's google
right, and ultimately, that'swhy I tell people too when they
come in and they talk to me.
Don't ever ask me how I feelunless you want to know the
answer.
So I'm always truthful.
And people like, well, why areyou sharing your story with
people?
I said so they can share theirsand feel comfortable that they

(31:33):
can do the same thing?
Um, and I think that that's theother part about being human as
a therapist is I share thosestories, I share a lot of this
stuff because sometimes I'll belike, oh yeah, emdr, and you
know, if you do the sixth, oh,what is it?
Oh crap, I got to look it up.
Give me a second.
And I look it up and people arelike, oh, so you don't know
everything.
I'm like, no, I don't even knowthe diagnostic criteria exactly

(31:54):
for PTSD, and I've worked withPTSD for 20 years.
I still once in a while go, oh,what's the other one?

Daniel Gospodarek (32:00):
And that yeah , it also doesn't help that it
changes every like four or fiveyears too.

Steve Bisson (32:06):
Well, wait till the debate starts about complex
PTSD.

Daniel Gospodarek (32:09):
I know Very interesting one.
Yeah.
CPTSD for those who want to knowthe initials Definitely and
kind of taking what you'resaying a step further like the
therapeutic dynamic is part ofthe healing process.
The relational process, theattachment process even outside

(32:31):
of if you're doing act, emdr,somatic, experiencing cognitive
processing therapy, like thejust the relational aspect is a
significant portion of thehealing process.
To be able to be vulnerable andto be accepted and to be, to
receive not I don't want to sayfeedback, but to receive just

(32:51):
insight and support for whatyou're experiencing versus
invalidation, is a significantportion of of the healing
process.
And that is, you know, one thingthat comes to my mind and it
came when you were explainingthat was my work with a previous
supervisor and it was kind oflike we were doing a supervision

(33:16):
session and this is kind of offtopic and tangential, but I
think it applies to like thehelping profession, profession
and like first responders andmilitary is like a lot of people
are familiar with helen kellerand like know that story or at
least the framework of the story, right, but not many people
remember her instructor's nameand her, but her instructor was

(33:42):
the one who ignited this wholething, right, and like that is
that's how, like I think about,like people in the helping
profession and like our roles,and then also like you never
know who you're gonna save orprotect right and what they're
gonna go on to do absolutely and, by the way, it's not a tangent
.

Steve Bisson (34:03):
It's absolutely related because I you know I'll
go to the theory behind this andGabor Mate if you are familiar
with him, if you're not, that'sfine.
Gabor Mate talks about how, ina therapeutic relationship, your
words are not as important asthe electrical connection
between your two brains and yourtwo hearts, because that's what

(34:24):
makes the therapeuticrelationship, the empathy, the
actual connection with anotherhuman being who shows compassion
for what you've been through,is significantly more important
than, oh, did you use ACT, cbt,emd or whatever technique?
The alphabet soup of treatment,as I call it?
It really is that connectionand that's why, like, it's not

(34:46):
tangential.
I think it's very accurate forpeople who want to find
themselves through therapy.
You gotta learn how to be likesometimes, just be connected.
Some, as I, as I said, some daysI'm going to talk about a
specific trauma with someone andthen some days we're going to
talk about a hockey game, afootball game or something like
that for 30 minutes and peopleare like, oh, that's not
therapeutic.
I'm like, are you connectedwith me?

(35:07):
Yeah, I actually enjoyed havingthat conversation with you.
So that's therapy and remindinga lot of the therapists that
the importance is really theconnection, not just going okay,
what's the goal.
I know the insurances won'tlike what I say, but the truth
is is that I don't work on goalsall the time.
I really work on what's in thehere and now, and sometimes
people are like tired, theydon't want to talk about stuff,

(35:28):
and that's fine too.
Or people are like I'm in a goodmood.
I'm like I always joke aroundand people are like I'm a good
mood.
You can ask me anything.
I say be careful what you askfor.

Daniel Gospodarek (35:37):
Yeah, and I, you know you talk about like the
, the and the heart's beingconnected in the therapy session
, in like peter levine emdr orsomatic experiencing in an emdr,
like we get into like thatco-regulation with the nervous
system, right, like I can be ananchor for you, you can be an
anchor for me if it's needed,right, and that goes back and

(35:57):
forth in the therapeutic dynamic, absolutely, and having that
alignment right and I think thatthat's you know.

Steve Bisson (36:05):
Especially, especially, you've said you know
you talked about thetherapeutic relationship with
first responders and military.
Both of us are not military orfirst responders and we never
want to share like I don't know.
I'm sure you're the same wayand if you you can correct me if
I'm wrong.

Daniel Gospodarek (36:18):
We don't want to take those roles, we don't
want that, but we haveexperience with that and
sometimes we gotta kind of likeshare those experiences in order
for credibility, and it sucks,but that's how sometimes works.
Yeah, definitely, and yeah, Imean I think the credibility,
but also also the part that youknow, as therapists, we
experience our own stuff too,right, and hence I shared my

(36:40):
little bit about my tbi recovery, right, like.
I mean, like we're not immuneto the challenges of life in any
way, shape or form, andoftentimes it's some of those
pieces that are driving forcesbehind why we entered the
profession, right.

Steve Bisson (36:56):
So Well, you talk about your TBI being in the
profession.
If you ever listen to mypodcast and for my audience,
they probably heard me say ittoo many times but I lost my
best friend when I was 12 and Ididn't have time for grief
process or anything else.
I was just alone with all thosethoughts for several years and
for me, my motivation in therapyis like never being someone,

(37:19):
being alone with that, justhaving that outlet.
Um, but speaking of family,friends and all that, holidays
right now, uh, middle ofDecember, people are going to go
the home, the home, and maybealso have some differences,
whether it is a family,long-term issue, something as
current as the political systemor even some hurt based on, you

(37:43):
know, maybe traumas or thingsthat have happened in the past.
Do you have any suggestions onhow to handle that stress for
the holidays?

Daniel Gospodarek (37:50):
Yeah, I'll send over a blog post I recently
wrote for how to manage some ofthose things and going into it.
But I think a prepping right weare usually creatures of habit
on some way shape or form.
So I'm guessing that theseissues have maybe probably been
around in one one way or anotherthroughout somebody's life.

(38:10):
So knowing that, hey, these mayshow up at some point.
So mentally preparing also,having you know, kind of like if
you're going with familymembers, like from your
immediate, you know family unit,and having maybe like an escape
word or something to leave theroom right, setting boundaries
that you know if they ask aboutyou know, oh, who'd you vote for

(38:33):
.
You know why'd you vote forthem, and be like you know, I
don't really think that this isthe place to discuss that.
Let's just enjoy our timetogether and if they continue to
press, you have the right towalk away too.
You don't have to sit and takethat.
And then also building up, solike for for Steve and I, like
building up some of thoseinternal resources, but
essentially building up some ofthose ways that help you

(38:54):
tolerate discomfort.
So that could mean likesometimes people have like
fidget things in their pocketsor like stress balls.
You know finding ways to maybetake a break.
So go to the bathroom, reset,go for a walk, all those
different pieces, or maybe maybethe kids are playing in a
different room and you gosupervise them, right, just to

(39:15):
remove yourself.
We can't always control otherpeople, but we can control our
own responsiveness and A to notreact right, because once we
start getting into more of thereaction mindset, then we're
more in like sympathetic nervoussystem dysregulation, like
fight or flight.
So just being responsive andjust saying you know what, I'm
going to go do something else,um, not letting ego get in the

(39:39):
way.
Sometimes we want to be thecorrect one and we may believe
we are and we may be right.
What do you mean?

Steve Bisson (39:50):
may, I'm always right, man.

Daniel Gospodarek (39:51):
Yeah, that's what I say too, but we also
can't impose that on otherpeople.

Steve Bisson (40:00):
Well, I'm going to address something you said too,
because I like to tell peopleTV is your best friend, because,
unless it's on blank news,choose your news outlet, if it's
a Christmas movie or a holidaymovie, as I should say, if it's
a politically correct humanbeing, and I am or watching
sports, whatever it's, likebasketball, football, hockey

(40:21):
there's a lot of sports on rightnow.
Like basketball, football,hockey there's a lot of sports
on right now.
It's a great equalizer becausepeople like, when they're
watching the game, watching amovie, they want to talk about
the movie or the game, or when'sthe first time you saw a
Christmas story, for example, orwhatever, and that's a great
equalizer.
And it also changes the subjectand keeps you safe.
So I want to add that asanother trick.

Daniel Gospodarek (40:40):
Definitely, definitely.

Steve Bisson (40:42):
So you know, I the other other part too that I
thought was funny is you, likeyou know, take your time and
walk away or have something likea fidget.
Here's my fidget for those whogo on youtube.
I'm not going to tell you whatit is, because there's someone
who mentioned in my uh, the inmy direct messages stop playing
with your beard, um, on youtube.
But for me it's kind of amanagement of like copy yourself

(41:04):
pace, paste yourself.
So again, I just did it.
I didn't do it to piss offanyone, I promise.
I'm just saying that.
You know, sometimes we alsohave other things that we can
use, and for me, my beard is agreat way Women use their hair.
Sometimes it's a way toself-soothe.

Announcer (41:18):
Yep.

Daniel Gospodarek (41:19):
Yep, definitely finding and that kind
of goes back to those, uh, youknow, internal resources that we
can create is like we aretrying to self-soothe our
nervous system, right.
So finding those thingssometimes it's a certain meal at
a holiday party, right, orcertain scents can be very
powerful, um.
Or like scenery.

(41:39):
So like thinking like ifthere's like a fireplace or
something like that, like allthose pieces are ways and you
have to find what works best foryou.
But like we have the ability toself-soothe, right, and that's
what's really really beautifulis a to start uncovering those.
If you haven't, or familydynamics that are very stressful

(42:05):
, we may not A be shown and orgiven the time to explore those.
So then those are on you tofigure out now as you grow,
right, right, nobody's going tofigure them out for you.

Steve Bisson (42:19):
No one said it'd be easy.
You're right.
So I think that that's all goodadvice for the holidays, and I
do appreciate you coming to thepodcast.
I know you wanted to share yourblog and I'm certainly going to
put it in the show notes, sothat's not a big deal.
What else are you working on?
What are you doing?
How can people reach you?
Stuff like that?

Daniel Gospodarek (42:37):
Sure, so I am the founder therapist of
Revitalize Mental Health PLC.
So we're located in Kenosha,wisconsin, and then I'm licensed
in throughout Wisconsin as wellas in Colorado, but really
focusing on helping men heal.
It could be from trauma, grief,loss, just the stress of life

(42:59):
that is often not discussed,especially among men first
responders, military, so sothose pieces.
But I'm certified in emdr andthen almost done with somatic
experiencing with peter levineand then also um trained in cpt
as well.

Steve Bisson (43:16):
Cognitive processing therapy so trained in
cpt.
Oh my god, that's like amazing.
Want to talk quickly, talkabout I know we're plugging here
, so to speak, just say itquickly.

Daniel Gospodarek (43:27):
So cognitive behavioral therapy, cognitive
processing therapy, is kind ofis a derivative of CBT, but it's
more tailored towards trauma,looking at just kind of the
different types of thoughts,beliefs and then, or thoughts,
intermediate thoughts and thenbeliefs, and then really getting
into core beliefs and stufflike that, but really working to

(43:47):
rewire some of the the thebrain or the neural networks
that were shifted during trauma.
I've seen it be, you know, justfrom my own clinical experience
.
I've seen it be really helpfulfor, like, single incident
traumas, um, but when you getmore into like the complex
pieces like EMDR and somaticexperiencing seem to fit a

(44:08):
little bit, a little bit better.
At least that's my clinicalopinion.
I don't know what the researchsays on, you know, is CBT, but
that's my experience and I'llown that.
But CBT is a, you know,anywhere from 12 to 16 sessions
long, very, very manualized formof therapy heavily used by the

(44:30):
VA, the federal, uh.
But it's well worthwhile.
I am not trained yet.

Steve Bisson (44:46):
It is one of the trainings I'm looking into.
Uh and I have a few uhcolleagues who are military,
who've learned CPT who says thatit's been a game changer in
their treatment.

Daniel Gospodarek (44:56):
Yeah, yeah, it's really it is.
It is a nice piece there's.
There is homework in it, though.

Steve Bisson (45:05):
Well, yeah, that's why I think one of them said if
it wasn't for homework, I wouldlove this treatment.
Yeah, and I'm like, well, if itwasn't for homework, you
wouldn't be really movingforward, but anyway.

Daniel Gospodarek (45:14):
Right, right, so you have to.
As a therapist, it's importantto match not only what's going
to be beneficial clinically, butalso like what does the person
have capacity to do in theirlife, right?
Sometimes people are workingyou know two dead end jobs just
to put food on the table and tospend 40, you know 40 minutes a

(45:35):
week doing doing like clinicallyoriented writing or typing may
not always be beneficial.

Steve Bisson (45:42):
No, and I think that sometimes being raw and
writing your like, journaling orwriting the homework, is a lot
more significant than saying doyou know what ACT stands for?
Or exoplex and all that Like wedon't even know it.
We're therapists and it's goodto work on stuff that is more
down to earth, and that's how Iexplained it.
Yep, Definitely Well, as weapproach the well about almost

(46:06):
an hour already.
Yeah, I want to thank you.
This was absolutely beneficial.
Looking forward to, uh,possibly talking again, Cause I
think that you know, especiallytalking about Peter.
Like I said, Peter probablyowes us a few dollars here.
I'm joking, Peter, if you'relistening, I'm just joking.
Um, I don't think he listens tomy podcast, but anyway.
But I think that there's a lotto be said and because you know,

(46:29):
as I've mentioned very soon inmy podcast, in the next few
weeks I'm really concentrating,working on the first responder
world and working with traumaand grief in the future and my
podcast is going to probablyshift to more of that subject
matter.
Love to have you back on atsome point if you want to, For
sure.

Daniel Gospodarek (46:49):
Would love to be back on and share a little
bit more in clinical stuffaround somatic experiencing and
just have a genuine conversationtoo about what have we noticed
works well, what doesn't workwell.
It's just a fascinating realmto support people in healing,
and what will work for 16 peoplemight not work for the next 35

(47:13):
like so we're not robots and Ithink that's the that's the hard
part with.
You know some of the dynamics,the bureaucracy within the
therapeutic, therapeutic realm,with billing and stuff like.

Steve Bisson (47:24):
That is time treatment and stuff like that
I'll leave you on my politicalstatement of the day.
When you go for cancertreatment, there's over 25
different treatments you canhave, not even counting the
experimental stuff, and weaccept that readily, with no
exceptions, and that's fine.
For diabetes, there's at leastseven to eight medication before
you even start doing insulindirectly, and we accept that.

(47:45):
In mental health, you got tohave one technique that works
for everyone.
I mean, come on, wake up people, right, right.

Announcer (47:52):
So yeah that's my political statement for today.

Daniel Gospodarek (47:55):
Yeah, and and , and I think I'm hoping in the
next few years we will also moveforward in terms of a lot of
research related to EMDR,somatic experiencing and any new
forms of therapy that may bejust kind of on that cutting
edge cusp that we don't alwayshear about because it's not
empirically supported right away, right.

Steve Bisson (48:17):
And evidence-based treatment is such a catch word
nowadays and I see some value inthat, but sometimes I think
that what works may not beevidence-based stuff.
Again, a little politicalstatement.
I can't wait for the APA topick up on this, but I want to
wish you happy holidays to you.
Yeah, you too.
Thank you, enjoy it.
I hope people go to your blogand go read it and really great

(48:40):
advice there, so thank you forthat.

Daniel Gospodarek (48:42):
Awesome and I'll send you my links and
everything for to put in thenotes.
I appreciate that.
Thank you Awesome.
Take care, okay, thank you.

Steve Bisson (48:53):
Well, thank you so much, Daniel and I'm not
pronouncing your last namebecause I'm going to screw it up
again for being here and, uh, Ihope people got a lot of stuff
from that.

Announcer (49:09):
I'll put it in the show notes, all his links.
But on episode 182, I'm goingto have Dave Roberts on and Dave
will be an interesting guest.
Also met him through Facebook,so I hope you join me,
educational and entertainmentpurposes only.
If you're struggling with amental health or substance abuse
issue, please reach out to aprofessional counselor for
consultation.

(49:29):
If you are in a mental healthcrisis, call 988 for assistance.
This number is available in theUnited States and Canada.
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