February 19, 2025 • 40 mins
Jessica Jamison returns to our studio, unfolding her transformative journey from the weight loss industry to becoming a dedicated advocate for those battling eating disorders. Her shift aligns deeply with her personal values, shedding societal expectations and embracing authenticity. Jessica's story highlights a powerful transition, illustrating how past experiences of rejection and fear can shape self-perception. Together, we navigate the intricate relationship between trauma, food, and body image, exposing the cycle of shame and guilt that many face.
Our conversation explores the concept of food-related trauma, challenging the notion that trauma must fit a specific mold to be valid. We discuss the unique challenges surrounding food as both a necessity and potential source of distress. Jessica shares her personal experiences with weight loss medications, tackling misconceptions about eating disorders head-on. By shifting focus to intuitive eating and movement, we advocate for breaking free from disordered habits, emphasizing the importance of joy and authenticity in physical activity.
Jessica introduces the innovative concept of "movement therapy," blending her skills as a mental health counselor and personal trainer. This approach not only champions a healthy relationship with food and fitness but also embraces client autonomy and consent. Our dialogue touches on the evolution of personal fitness, advocating for enjoyment and alignment with individual interests. As we wrap up, Jessica's heartfelt journey serves as an inspiration for authenticity in both personal and professional realms.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hi and welcome to Finding your Way Through Therapy
.
A proud member of thePsychCraft Network, the goal of
this podcast is to demystifytherapy, what can happen in
therapy and the wide array ofconversations you can have in
and about therapy Throughpersonal experiences.
Guests will talk about therapy,their experiences with it and
(00:24):
how psychology and therapy arepresent in many places in their
lives, with lots of authenticityand a touch of humor.
Here is your host, steve Bisson.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Alors peut-être très loin.
Slowly but surely we're gettinginto the new studio.
I know you've seen a few ofthem, but I'm still working on a
few kinks.
So we're back in the originalstudio.
Welcome to episode 192.
Episode 191 was about grief andthe process.
I hope you go back and listento it.
But episode 192 is with an oldfriend of the show from episode
(00:58):
29, if you can remember that.
So if you go back and listen tothat, that'd be great, because
I know that she's evolved sincethen and she's a friend of mine.
Her father has been a goodfriend of mine for several years
, but I've developed a goodfriendship with Jessica Jamison.
Jessica is a licensed mentalhealth counselor and certified
(01:19):
personal trainer and she's beenmuch more doing more with her
licensed mental health stuff,and so we talked about it before
the interview talked a littlebit about what are we going to
talk about?
Trauma, grief, and she's like,well, trauma and food, and we
kind of like like we still haveto work out the kinks, but I
hope you enjoy the interview andI'm sure we're going to figure
it out.
(01:39):
So here's the interview.
Well, welcome everyone, and I'mso excited to have a returning
guest not only a returning guest.
Let's be very frank, no punintended.
Jessica is someone I metthrough Frank, who is her father
, and I've really enjoyedtalking to Jess over the course
of several years now and youknow we have a.
(02:00):
We have this connection basedon that, but we've also
developed our own connection,which means a lot to me and I
loved her episode.
It was episode 29.
So if you want to go back andlisten to that, go ahead, but
episode 192 will be with JessicaJamieson.
Welcome.
Speaker 3 (02:16):
Thank you so much for having me again, steve, and
it's crazy.
I was thinking this I was onyour podcast, I feel like when
it was like a baby, right, I wasthinking this like I was on
your podcast, I feel like whenit was like a baby right, like
it was brand new, and I was likethis feels like it was forever
ago and I am I know, I knowyou're in a different place than
that and I've been such adifferent place in my career
(02:37):
than we recorded that.
But yeah, it's, it's crazy tobe back here and I'm I'm super
excited for this conversation.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
The best part of it, jess, is that you're.
That's what I was thinking, too, when I was like I didn't
listen to episode 29.
Again, I've listened to it overthe course of years, of course,
but literally that's four yearsago and I remember where you
were at at that point and thechange in confidence, the change
in your social media contentand how you're truly more
(03:06):
yourself everywhere else now istruly just a great thing to see,
from my perspective.
Speaker 3 (03:12):
Oh, thank you so much .
Yeah, I mean I've made some bigshifts and I think because of
because I was finally willing todo that and we can talk more
about what those were but Ifinally feel aligned with what,
with the work that I'm doing andthat has, I think, really
what's helped me be able to showup authentically.
(03:34):
I don't think I was doing itbefore.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
No, and I think that you know, because of the shift
of my podcast, we're reallytalking about grief, trauma, and
everyone thinks it's PTSD.
It doesn't have to be PTSD.
Trauma can be so many otherthings and I think that
sometimes our lack of confidenceof being ourselves comes from,
you know, past rejections, past,whatever, and what will people
(03:57):
think, and this and that, andyou know in a good way.
I think that both of us haveevolved.
Well, I think that we'vecertainly moved on move.
We still care for what peoplethink to a certain extent.
That's important too, but forthe most part, we don't give a
fuck and we're here ourselves,and that's that's a great thing,
because that takes away fromall that shame or fear that we
(04:18):
got from other people that wereimposed by other people and then
we took in, which is on us, noton anyone else, but I don't
know what you think about that.
Speaker 3 (04:25):
Oh, absolutely, I, I totally agree.
And so many of the fears that Ihad um in so it and it was
around leaving the weight lossindustry.
So that's where I started.
When we recorded episode wouldyou say 29?
I was selling weight loss,right?
I called myself a weight losscoach and I don't do that
(04:47):
anymore.
So now I work with eatingdisorders, I call myself a
therapist.
I am still a personal trainer,but I was terrified to leave the
weight loss industry because Ithought that no one would want
to work with me.
And now, like you said, like Idon't really give a shit, I am
(05:07):
helping people find healing andpeace and that means so much
more to me than what otherpeople in the you know, in the
fitness industry might think ofme comes from gaining confidence
, being true to yourself andrealizing that most of the fears
(05:30):
that we have are really notbased on reality.
Yeah, oh yeah, they were fearsthat I was making up, absolutely
.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
Well, and again, if I'm breaking a wall, we can
always cut it off the show.
But I saw that in you when wewere, oh, you know, what about
this?
What about that?
I'm like were oh, you know,what about this?
What about that?
I'm like, just be yourself,just don't worry about that
stuff.
I remember having thatconversation with you privately.
Yeah, and if I'm breaking awall here, we can always cut it
out.
But the truth is, is that I, Ifeel like I obviously we don't
(05:57):
know each other super well, butwe know enough, enough of each
other.
And I'm like yeah, jess, you're, you're enough.
Stop thinking about whateveryone else is going to
fucking think.
Speaker 3 (06:06):
Yeah, I know, and you have helped me so much with
that and along with other peoplein my life have helped me so
much with that, but I I've hadto like hire my own coaches and
seek out my own mentors to helpme break through some of that.
And it actually I remember aconversation with a business
coach about a year ago and I wasin the spot of like why do I
(06:28):
have to choose, right Like, whydo I have to choose to just
right like, stop being in theweight loss industry and not
sell weight loss?
Like, like, because I want tobe able to help people who want
to lose weight safely andefficiently and in a healthy way
.
But then I can also work withpeople struggling with
disordered eating and body image.
(06:48):
Like why do I have to choose?
And I was, like I do, rightLike.
It just hit me in that momentLike no, like I have to make
this choice, like I cannot beafraid to fully step into this.
Because it was just holding meback.
And I think that's that's whenI signed up for, for your course
like how to start your ownprivate practice, and we can,
(07:11):
you know, talk about all of thefears and blocks that I had in
terms of calling myself atherapist and how I worked
through that.
But you're so right Like I'vestruggled with confidence my
entire life.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
Right and I think that you know, in episode 29,
you did talk about this and theeating issues that came with
that and the confidence and wecould process whatever you want.
This is your podcast, because Idefinitely the other part too.
Is that not because you're myfriend, not because of anything
else?
I want to really help promoteyou because I know Jess.
I know that Jess is finallyshowing up as Jess and it's just
(07:50):
like everyone should meet Jess.
That's how I truly feel,because we were talking even
pre-interview.
I talk about movement andnutrition, not diet and exercise
, and you agreed with me rightaway.
And nutrition, not diet andexercise, and you agreed with me
right away.
And to me it's like changingthe value of particularly I know
we're going to it's going tosound sexist, but particularly
(08:11):
women who attach their valueonto this weight loss and the
exercise and what it's going tolook like, and that's all based
on trauma and shame.
So you know, I mean you can gowherever you want, because
there's so many things.
We can go with that, but youcan go wherever you want,
because there's so many thingswe can go with that.
Speaker 3 (08:25):
Oh geez, I have to take it from there, okay.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
I'm just here to host .
I'm not here to do anythingelse.
Speaker 3 (08:32):
All right, you're supposed to lead this, steve,
come on.
Yeah, no, I totally agree.
I landed here because Istruggled with disordered eating
and body image and I don't knowif I would use the word trauma
to describe I don't know.
I mean, I struggle with thatLike, and I definitely have
(08:53):
struggled over the years withtelling my story because I felt
like what I went through wasn'tbad enough, like I wasn't, I
wasn't sick enough.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
But that's not a trauma response.
It's not bad enough, right.
Speaker 3 (09:06):
Yeah, whatever.
Okay, I'm sorry.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
I'm going to shut up.
I said you're going to leadthis?
No, but you're right.
Speaker 3 (09:11):
You're right, and that's why I've enjoyed being on
podcasts so much, because it'shelped me heal immensely and own
my story Right and be able toshare it is healing right within
itself, um, and be able toreach it is healing right within
itself and be able to reachother women who might be feeling
that way, who don't want toseek support because they don't
feel like their, their foodtrauma or their body and
(09:34):
struggles are bad enough Becausethat's that's just.
It's just not true, right.
Like you know, I think thatthat food trauma can be, as we
were saying.
It can be one big thing.
It can be not having access tofood as a child, like right,
that's big.
(09:54):
Or it can be 1000 littleconversations that you've had
with your caregiver aboutcleaning your plate before you
get up from the dinner table oreating your broccoli before you
get your dessert.
Like I've worked with women whohave had, you know, numerous
body comments from their dads,their moms, their siblings, and
(10:16):
I've also had women who astranger has said one thing to
them about their appearance andthey have carried that with them
throughout their entire lives,and so so for me, I think my
struggles probably did come froma family who was obsessed with
weight loss, right Like I.
Like you know, my parents.
(10:37):
They're wonderful people and Ihad a great childhood and they
were always on a diet RightAlways, to this day they still
are.
And so as a you know, as a girlgrowing up like I carried that
with me, like I'm not worthy oflove unless, like I am small
(11:01):
enough, right, because they hadthat expectations for themselves
, so why wouldn't I, right?
So it was just years and yearsand years of growing up with
that and again, like they didn'tknow any better.
I think you know, my parentsgrew up, like you know, and they
were raising kids at the peakof diet culture, right when,
(11:21):
like beach body became superpopular and the Atkins diet and
all of that like just blew up,and so they were doing the best
that they could.
Speaker 1 (11:30):
Right.
Speaker 3 (11:31):
But you know, I think I don't know where I was going
with this.
I think just to share thattrauma when it comes to food and
body image struggle.
They don't have it doesn't haveto look a certain way and I
don't think it's oftenrecognized enough.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
Well, I'll go back to something I've said on the
podcast many times I say it tomy clients.
I'm going to say it here too,because it's important I don't
get to decide what trauma is forother people.
Speaker 3 (11:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
And then most people are like do the comparison game
of their trauma.
And I'm like, just because andagain trigger warning for those
who listen that's because younever held three blue babies,
because you're not a paramedicor a first responder doesn't
mean your trauma is not valid.
That you were at a 9-11 doesn'tmake it that you're not valid
to have trauma from watching iton TV and so on and so forth,
(12:29):
and I think that the part that Ialways kind of remind,
especially around food andappearances.
you know, I know your parents, Iknow they're great people and
people do the best they can withwhat they got and any
information they receive.
You know, and to me, like again, I'm not defending any of them,
I'm just realizing that's thesame thing I've said about my
parents.
They did the best they can.
If they purposely screwed me up, I'd be like, okay, they
purposely fucked me up.
But I know your parents, I knowfor a fact they never tried to
purposely do this.
Speaker 3 (12:48):
Of course not.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
That doesn't mean it doesn't affect you and it
doesn't have trauma.
And that's why, like for me,food trauma, like most people
don't want to recognize thatbecause, like, that's not
important enough.
Well, if you're afraid to eat afucking donut Sorry, I'm
swearing a lot.
I mean, there's something reallystrange about that.
If you're afraid of eating 12donuts at the same time, okay, I
(13:09):
get that one, but eating adonut and I mean it's a great
way to introduce a little bit ofwhat you do too, but you know
the donuts and dumbbell stuff.
Speaker 3 (13:27):
But to me, that's where the trauma lies, is that
you can't eat a donut Really.
Yeah, I totally I.
So I mainly work.
I mainly work with women, youknow, in there I would say ages
30 to 60, um, so all differentages and, yeah, the you know
what they struggle with isthings like that food noise,
right, it's just constant.
It's constant and there's a lotof shame and guilt, followed by
(13:47):
by what they, what they eat.
Right, they eat and then theyfeel so much shame and guilt
about it and then the processjust starts all over.
And so and I am trying to, I'verecently learned this, I was
reading about it but we, weoften see eating disorders as
kind of like a maladaptivecoping skill.
Right, like, so there's somesort of trauma that occurred and
(14:10):
then the eating disorder is amaladaptive way to cope with
that trauma.
And what I would argue when I'mactually like, feel, like I'm
seeking to understand in thismoment I do this work is that
it's active trauma, right, likewe.
If you think about the bingerestrict cycle or someone who
(14:33):
struggles with bulimia, you arein an active state of trauma,
like you are.
You are not feeling safe inyour body right and your body
does not trust you to keep itsafe when you're engaging in
those behaviors.
So it's just this, you know, Ithink it's.
It really helps to see thosestruggles with food and body as
(14:55):
as not only a response to trauma, but you're you're currently
living in it.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
I mean, I don't, I don't want to go neurologically
too far, but when you have shameor what people would describe
as negative emotions there's nosuch thing, by the way, but
that's a different story for adifferent day but you know, with
a shame do, it results intocortisol in your brain going off
.
And what does cortisol do islike oh, and I'm in a fight or
(15:23):
flight response, I got to savethis fat.
So not only by shaming yourselfare you perpetuating the trauma
, and it's an active trauma.
You're also like oh, yourbody's like oh, we got to store
this donut because, and thenwhat does it happen?
It also affects yourphysiological aspect of your
life.
So, yeah, it is active traumaand it is absolutely what food
can do in your brain and how youperceive it.
Speaker 3 (15:46):
Yeah, yeah, I agree.
And the crazy thing about foodis that you can't just stop
eating.
Speaker 2 (15:50):
Right.
Speaker 3 (15:51):
Right, like you can't , you have to eat to live, and
so I think that makes healingyour relationship with food
incredibly difficult.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
But we also, we, we don't have a choice well, you
know, and again I'll share myrecent and I'm going to just go
and over over some some of thestuff, not completely in detail.
You know I I did wagovi forabout six months and I was
losing the weight.
And I lost the weight and I'mno longer on it for other
(16:23):
medical conditions that I reallydon't want to share here right
now.
But one of the things thatpeople would say to me which
always perplexed me they're likeoh, you're not hungry, then
don't eat.
Like that's not a goal in life.
Speaker 3 (16:34):
Not to eat no.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
I'm like what?
And in my head, maybe becauseI'm a dude I'm like how is that
even fucking smart?
And then I realized thatthere's a lot of this perpetual
societal oh, you're eating toomany things and that's why if
you don't eat, you'll be fineand perpetuates that trauma,
perpetuating anorexia andbulimia, because if you eat,
(16:56):
obviously you got to throw it upbecause God forbid, it stays in
your fucking body.
Speaker 3 (17:00):
Yeah, yeah, I always tell my clients sometimes eating
disorders are not about thefood.
Sometimes they're actuallyabout food, and if you are not
eating enough, or if you, orsometimes maybe you are, but
there's because there's adifference between physical
(17:21):
restriction of the food and amental restriction.
So someone and they might beeating the food, but it's
they're shaming themselves, likeas they do it after they do it
Right, like telling themselveslike never again I start over
Monday, right.
So that's an example of more oflike the mental restriction.
But, yeah, not eating enough,not fueling your body
(17:45):
consistently, is only gonna isonly gonna make things worse.
But that's what society tellsus to do, right, that's what
diet tells us.
Diet culture tells us to do tolose weight is just restrict
what you're eating and that'sthat's the worst thing that you
can do to for your body, becausethen it doesn't trust you.
It doesn't trust you to takecare of yourself and to listen
to your internal cues versusfollowing all these external
(18:07):
rules.
Speaker 2 (18:08):
Right, and I think that this is something I was
when you were saying that.
All I could think of is, everytime I've been over to your
parents' house or your house oryour family's house, there's
always a ton of food, all thefood pushing in my family.
Speaker 3 (18:21):
It's unreal.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
And it's always like.
It's kind of like a message.
They're like wait a minute,we're on a diet, so to speak,
which should be nutrition, butanyway.
But there's like tables of food, not the expression of tables
of food, there's literallytables of food at your house
expression of tables of food.
Speaker 3 (18:38):
There's literally tables of food at your house,
literally.
Yeah, yeah, the food stuff inmy family.
It's absolutely fascinating.
So I come from like a bigItalian family, like we are all
about food.
But yeah, like it's, and that'smaybe why I struggled with food
, because I was so confused.
Right, like you're.
Right Like I on one end, I had,you know, I grew up with not
only just my parents butextended family members always
(19:00):
on diets.
Yet at every occasion, everytiny little celebration, like
big or small, like there wasfood.
It was all about the food andyou were being told you have to
eat more.
Right, like, the first thingthat would happen when a guest
comes to my house is my mom islike what can I get you?
What do you need to eat?
I have this, I have this, Ihave this.
Like I'm not hungry.
(19:21):
Okay, well, how about this?
So it was.
It's this crazy back and forthwith the food stuff and again,
looking back, it's like nowonder I had so much food noise
Right, right, right as a.
No wonder I had so much foodnoise right, right, right as a
teenager.
But yeah, in setting boundariesaround food and my family has
(19:44):
been huge in my healing and mymom hasn't liked it and other
family members haven't liked it,but that's definitely something
that I've had to do for me andin my recovery.
Speaker 2 (19:59):
Well, I think that there's a couple of things.
First of all, I think it'simportant because a lot of
families are like that.
I think that you see that a lotin most westernized cultures,
Food is a sign of wealth, so tospeak.
You know, and as we go along in2025, it definitely is.
But I also think that you know,maybe it's helpful to think
(20:20):
about how you kind of got overwith setting those limits and
boundaries with your family,Because even when I'm there, I
sometimes I will not love youFrank, Love you Dory.
This is not about non love, butlike oh, you want more?
No, I'm good.
No, no, Are you sure you want?
Like, what do I say to that?
I mean, come on, stop.
(20:41):
Like I think that once in awhile I'll say, oh, I have two
legs, I could definitely getthere if I want you know, but I
think that it's important tokind of like share, kind of like
how to set those limits andboundaries to people, so that
you know, even if family won'tlike it by the way, a lot of
people won't like it, and that'sfine, you're not there to
please them.
Speaker 3 (21:00):
And that's exactly what I had to get over, right,
that was huge for me andrealizing like people are not
going to like these boundariesand it doesn't matter.
You know, and I think, yeah,and I think you can, you can be
very gentle, right, you can takethat approach or you can get
spicy and sassy with it.
(21:21):
I think it's.
It really depends on the personon on either side, like how you
want to handle it and how,right, how you think that other,
how you want to handle it withthat other person.
Knowing that I'm a super spicy,sarcastic person, so like that
is the route that I might take,but not everyone is like that,
and my mom is not like that atall.
(21:43):
So I have learned to be a littlebit more gentle with her, while
still keeping my boundariesaround food very firm and very
clear.
And she makes sassy remarks tome all the time about boundaries
(22:03):
that I set with my kids and howI want food and bodies to be
talked about around my children,and I don't think she likes it.
But she listens to it and sherespects it.
But it has taken like mesetting those clear and firm
boundaries over and over again,and anyone out there is
listening who is trying to setboundaries with their family
around food.
It takes time and patiencebecause these boundaries are new
(22:25):
, right, and we need to givepeople time to adjust to them.
Speaker 2 (22:29):
Not only that, it's a well-worn road right.
We celebrate, we have food.
People don't feel good, webring food.
That's the other thing I likeabout.
I find particularly fascinatingabout funerals, Whereas there
are a ton of, when you'regrieving and having all this
cortisol shooting out of you, alot of food and a lot of booze,
and to me it's like what a setupfor failure for anyone there.
(22:50):
And setting those boundariesare tough, especially when
they're down because of griefand struggles.
But you're right, I think thatlearning to not people, please,
I think is very, very.
Speaker 3 (23:02):
Yeah, yeah, for sure, because I that's, that's what
we want to do, especially whenit comes to food, because, like
you've said, it's it's a waythat we often express our love
and care, and we don't want tomake someone feel rejected and
yeah, go ahead.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
I was going to ask you so, realizing that it has
nothing to do with a rejectionof others, but how you feel, and
I think that that's the changeof control.
Like we, we feel like we got tocontrol people's reactions.
Unfortunately, that's wrongbecause you can't control them.
Number one and number two evenif you try to do your best to
control it, you're screwed.
I'm not saying to be impolite,but I'm saying don't try to
(23:42):
control things you can't control.
Speaker 3 (23:44):
Yeah, yeah.
And if we go back to trauma,right, like we have experienced
trauma again big T trauma, smallT trauma, whatever seek that
control, and I think that istotally true when it comes to
food right, we want to controlit so bad and I always encourage
(24:06):
my clients to let go of thatcontrol and instead of trying to
control it, your job is torespond to your body right and
if you're so you know, circleback to the food, pushing or
being around family who showslove and affection for food and
always wanting you to eat more.
Right, like you can't.
(24:26):
You're right, you can't controlthat right, but you can tune in
and respond to your body andits needs at that moment and you
can say yes or no based on that.
Speaker 2 (24:36):
And I think that that's what's important is that
you don't need to listen to theexterior cues.
You got to listen to yourinternal cues and we've changed
in society how we perceive thatbecause we let the external cues
control what we want.
Speaker 3 (24:51):
Oh, absolutely.
That's what diet culture hasdone right All of these weight
loss programs is they give yourules and guidelines to follow
and all my clients come to meand they're like, well, I need
the rules, I do better.
Right, I do better with therules.
Challenge that you think thatyou do right, but it's because
(25:12):
you have been completelystripped of your intuition, of
your ability to tune into yourbody and be an intuitive eater,
to be an intuitive mover,because if you watch kids eat
like I have young kids if youwatch them eat, they are such
little intuitive eaters.
It's amazing like my daughterwill eat her broccoli and leave
(25:33):
a piece of cookie right,something, something that, as
adults, we're like.
I would never do that right.
Speaker 2 (25:41):
Because all of those external rules have taken away.
I think that we created thisunforbidden fruit, and I think
that that's the other part too.
That I think is the problem isthat what's wrong with eating a
cookie?
Nothing.
But when your body needscarrots or needs celery, you see
it as a punishment instead ofseeing your body wants that.
(26:02):
Stop thinking about it as apunishment or a reward and think
about it as food and fuel foryour body.
Speaker 3 (26:08):
Yes, yeah, I mean yeah, we could have a whole
conversation around foodlabeling and what that has done
to our ability to be intuitiveeaters.
But yeah, I am all about likebalancing what you want with
what you know your body needs,and that's something that I
think it.
When you have been a chronicdieter, you've been on diet
(26:31):
after diet after diet.
You don't know how to do that.
Speaker 2 (26:35):
Well, let's, let's switch gears.
Gears for a second, because Iwant to talk, also because
you're a personal trainer also.
Well, you know, I ate at yourparents' house a lot, so I'm
going to go to the gym, wear along sleeve shirt with some
plastic bags around me so I canlose all my weight that I gained
from eating all the food.
I'd like you to talk like andagain I you laugh, but how many
(27:00):
people think that way?
Speaker 3 (27:00):
Number one and number two, I'm laughing because I did
that kind of stuff Right Like Iwhen I, when I first got into
fitness.
It was coming from a veryunhealthy place and I didn't see
that because it was normalizedright Like.
So you know, I I found a lot ofhealing and weightlifting.
(27:23):
I do believe that weightliftinglike completely saved my life
and I still live to this day.
But if I really look back on it, exercise for me was obsessive
and it wasn't healthy and Iburned my body to the ground
doing it and doing crazy thingslike that.
Like I would look up and likedo research on, like how to
sweat more after a meal to likeburn it all off.
Speaker 2 (27:45):
Like I'm sorry for laughing, but I get it.
Speaker 3 (27:48):
This stuff that I did was crazy.
I broke my arm right so I'vereally, because of my struggles
with disordered eating, I lostmy menstrual cycle when I was a
teenager and so I have likereally poor like bone density,
so I've broken like I don't knowfive different bones and I
(28:09):
broke my arm in college and Iwould go to the gym and get on
the elliptical with a broken armand people would be like, oh my
gosh, good for you, like Ican't believe you're here again.
Like you're so disciplined, like, wow, like I don't know if I
could do that, like I waspraised for all of that stuff
and that just kept me in it,right, because, oh geez, right,
my thought process was, like,well, what if I stop?
(28:30):
Right, like what are they goingto think of me if I don't go to
the gym for three hours a dayand I gain weight?
Like, what is everyone going tothink of me if I don't go to
the gym for three hours a dayand, again, wait, like what is
everyone going to think?
Right, they're going to judgeme for that.
And so, yeah, I, in my ownhealing, I have completely
changed the way that I seeexercise and movement and
fitness and I now use it as amodality for for healing in my
(28:54):
work with clients.
And so I you know you can't, Ican't take the personal trainer
out of the therapist and thetherapist out of the personal
trainer.
It just can't.
So I bring you know, I bringboth into both you know
disciplines into the work that Ido.
And, yeah, it's, it's super fun.
And I believe that fitnessshould be fun and as an act of
(29:17):
self-care and not, like you said, punishment for the gigantic
meal that you ate.
Speaker 2 (29:23):
Well, I think it's also very important to think
about that.
I don't think you should everseparate the personal trainer
from the therapist.
Speaker 1 (29:31):
And that's important.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
I'm just going to go on a small rant and come back.
When I have people who come tome about being a therapist and
all that, and I said, don't makethe mistake of losing yourself,
and they always go, what do?
You mean Stop wearing the maskof whatever the hell you learn
Be yourself.
And yes, you can be yourself andprofessional, and both can work
.
But most people don't get that.
You know the asshole behaviorand the sarcastic tone that I
(29:56):
use has paid dividends to memore than I can say in therapy.
But if you listen to some ofthe professors and teachers that
I had, they would have saidyou're going to push people away
and that's not, that's notprofessional and that's not
ethical or whatever.
Like I'd like to.
I'd like to tell them to go Fthemselves at this point, but
anyway.
Speaker 3 (30:15):
No, no, you're so right and I can't tell you how
long that took me to learn Rightand we that's what we talked
about at the beginning of thisepisode in it Right and I left.
You know the clinical positionthat I had after, after I
graduated, to pursue personaltraining because I had a
miserable grad school experience.
So I have my.
(30:35):
I got my master's in familytherapy, which I obviously don't
do for a reason props to allthe family therapists out there.
But like they, I startedrealizing, I think, in grad
school, that the mind bodyconnection was so important and
but I don't think that anyone atthe time, like my professors
(30:58):
and stuff, like I don't thinkthey, like no one was supportive
of that.
Like I had this vision of howhow do I integrate both and I
wanted to figure that out sobadly but I just didn't.
I didn't get the support at thetime and I left.
I completely left the field foryears to pursue personal
training and eventually landedmyself back here when and I'm
(31:21):
still figuring it all out Istill I have this vision and I
don't know if I've quite gottenthere, but I have all the faith
and hope in the world that Iwill, because it's something
that I am super passionate about.
Like I said, using usingmovement as a modality for
healing.
Speaker 2 (31:42):
Well, that that's you know, and I don't have any
doubt you'll get there.
I think it takes a while to getto that confidence level for
just about anyone, but it wouldalways frustrate me when I and
this is this is just between youand you and my audience at this
point, when you would tell meoh yeah, I'm a personal trainer,
you're a therapist also, butI'm a personal trainer.
're a therapist also, but I'm apersonal trainer.
Yeah, you're a therapist also,and I had these fights with you,
if you remember.
Uh, it got real fun by the waywe get a lot of great but yeah,
(32:03):
no, and I think that that's whatone of the things is that never
remove yourself from who youare and that also saves you a
lot.
And when we talk aboutnutrition and trauma, about
movement and trauma, it neveryou.
You know, like I, one of myclients recently, who's a
personal trainer, showed me aresearch that shows that cardio
actually doesn't work as well asbuilding muscle, and building
(32:28):
muscle will actually help youlose more weight than doing
cardio, and I found thatfascinating.
It's a great study.
If I can find it, I'll link itin the show notes, but it's
changing our thought process andnot dismissing it.
That's really important.
Speaker 3 (32:42):
Yeah, yeah, and we talked about all of those rules
around food and we also haverules around fitness and
exercise and the work that I dois really helping clients.
Let that go.
You know the work that I do isreally helping clients let that
go.
Like I don't, I honestly don'tcare that lifting weights is
better for weight loss thancardio.
(33:02):
I honestly I don't, right, likeI care which one you find fun.
I care about what lights you up, what makes you feel strong and
confident, and if you're acardio person, great.
If you're a person who loves tolift, awesome.
But like I can't tell you howmany half marathon, half
(33:25):
marathons that I've run that Ihave been so freaking miserable.
Like I hate running, but I didit because I thought that I
should.
Speaker 2 (33:33):
Right.
Speaker 3 (33:34):
And I now.
I will occasionally go out fora light run because I want to,
and for no other reason thanthat.
Speaker 2 (33:46):
I think I was talking to someone.
I never got that runner's highand I ran a couple of half
marathons myself.
Speaker 3 (33:51):
No, I never did.
Speaker 2 (33:53):
And I'm like nowadays , like I, as I joke around with
some of my clients who continuerunning, I say, oh, I've kind of
like hung my shoes up fromdoing half marathons and all
that because truly I don't enjoythem.
I it helped me in many ways,but I don't enjoy it now.
I enjoy walks, I enjoy gettingon a bike, which if you told me
(34:15):
10 years ago I'd get on a bikeand enjoy it, I would have said
you're wrong.
And so things change also inrespect.
You're the evolution of humanbeings you talk about yeah you
know you don't care about muscleversus, uh, cardio and all that
.
To me it's the same thing'slike if you start enjoying
really lifting weights and liftweights.
Who cares?
It's movement, that's important.
Speaker 3 (34:34):
Yeah, it's all it, it all counts, it all counts.
And, um, I think that's youknow where I've moved into on
the personal training side of mybusiness and I wish, again, I
wish they weren't so separate,like to have to call myself a
therapist and a personal trainer.
I'm like I need to come up withone word for this.
Like you know, I wish that Icould.
(34:55):
So what I have been moving intois trauma-informed personal
training and that feels soaligned, because you know, it's
really about that clientautonomy, right, and to be able
to speak up for yourself and sayI don't like this, this doesn't
feel good to me, this doesn'tfeel safe.
You know, and me understanding,right, that trauma is history
(35:21):
and how someone might show up.
So, for example, if someone'scanceling on me all the time,
you know I'm not going to justjump to well, this person isn't
motivated enough, they don'tunderstand their why.
Big enough, it's just notimportant enough to them.
Like, no, like there'ssomething deeper going on here
that is preventing this personfrom showing up to their
(35:44):
personal training sessions andwe need to work, we need to work
through some of that.
And then, you know, making sure, you know, I think consent is
huge.
You know, asking clients likeare you okay with this?
Like, what do you want out ofyour session?
Like, are you okay if I correctyou on your form right, would
you?
Would you rather end with somegentle stretching today, or
(36:07):
would you rather, you know, do acardio finisher Right and
helping them being able to liketune into what they need for
movement that day Again, like wesaid, instead of following some
sort of rule about like what'sbest for whatever.
Speaker 2 (36:24):
Right, Well, you know I came up with a name for you.
If you ever wanted.
Speaker 3 (36:28):
Yes, please.
Speaker 2 (36:30):
You're a movement therapist.
Speaker 3 (36:31):
Oh, all right, I can roll with that.
Speaker 2 (36:35):
Trademark.
I saved it.
I got trademark.
No one can listen.
Speaker 3 (36:38):
Interesting but.
Speaker 2 (36:39):
I think that's like when you were talking.
I'm like we were againpre-interview.
I'm done with the diet exerciseworld.
I am in a movement andnutrition world and I thought
that the movement with thetherapy would probably be a good
way to combine both of it.
But anyway, I've trademarked it, so you'll owe me all the
trademark money you make out ofit.
(37:00):
I'm all joking, of course but, Iwant to kind of like wrap it up
here, because I want to hearmore about a little bit of you
know.
What are you doing right nowand what do you want to like
talk about and how people canreach you, Because I think it's
important.
Speaker 3 (37:16):
Yeah, so I have my own private practice in the
eating disorder and body imagespace.
Like I said, I work mainly withwomen and with with a specialty
in binge eating, emotionalimage, emotional eating and body
image challenges, and I I'm a Ifeel that you do not have to
come to me with some like DSMdiagnosis.
(37:37):
I think these challenges reallydo exist on a spectrum and if
you are just someone who isstruggling with again that food
noise and that shame, like I,just I do encourage you to seek
support from a, from a licensedtherapist who specializes in
disordered eating.
And then I also offer personaltraining and, again, my my
(37:59):
specialty there is clients withmental health challenges.
So I would say all of mypersonal training clients have
therapists.
I am just in the role ofhelping you work on your
physical health as your trainer.
Yeah, and you can find me on mywebsite, revolutionhccom, and on
Instagram.
I try really hard to keep upwith posting there and you'll
(38:22):
find content that is weightinclusive, from a health at
every size standpoint.
And, yeah, my handle is at JessB Jameson.
Speaker 2 (38:31):
So I'll put all that in the show notes and I hope
people do reach you, reach outto you and if you go see her
social media, I give credit toJess.
I don't have that exposure ofmyself like she does and she's
just such a magnificent job.
So go check it out.
And then, diagnosing wise, Ijust want to say, if you want to
have fun one day and realizethat diagnosing doesn't mean as
(38:51):
much as most people think, gocheck out.
And I had to look it up whilewe were talking.
But this is a real diagnosis.
It's W56.12.
Everyone who is listening,please go check it out, put it
as an ICD-10 code and then tellme what it was, write it in the
notes or send me a DM and you'llall laugh and this will prove
to you how unimportant thosediagnoses truly are All right.
Speaker 3 (39:16):
W56.12.
Got it.
Don't tell anyone.
Speaker 2 (39:20):
Don't tell anyone if you're doing it up, all right,
well, please reach out to Jess.
And now, jess, we didn't have aplan and I think we did a
magnificent job of just beingourselves here, so I really
appreciate your time and all thecompliments I gave you.
I hope you understand this isnot a podcast thing, it's truly
things I mean.
(39:40):
So happy to see you as amovement therapist.
Speaker 3 (39:45):
Thank you so much for having me, steve.
Your mentorship means the worldto me.
Well, thank you I for having me, steve I um.
Your mentorship means the worldto me.
Speaker 2 (39:50):
Well, thank you, I try, I do my best.
Well, that completes episode192.
Again, jessica jameson.
Thank you so much.
Friend of the show, friend ofmine, great interview I'm.
I enjoyed torily through heremore about her, her evolution
not only as an lmhc and howshe's doing everything and
working with the eating habitsof individuals so they can have
(40:10):
a healthy life.
But episode 193 will berecurring co-host, courtney
Romanowski.
She'll be talking with me toLisa Manka and I can't wait to
do this at that interview and Ihope you join us then.
Speaker 1 (40:24):
Please like, subscribe and follow this
podcast on your favoriteplatform.
A glowing review is alwayshelpful and, as a reminder, this
podcast is for informational,educational and entertainment
purposes only.
If you're struggling with amental health or substance abuse
issue, please reach out to aprofessional counselor for
consultation.
If you are in a mental healthcrisis, call 988 for assistance.
(40:47):
This number is available in theUnited States and Canada.
Hi and welcome to Finding your Way Through Therapy
.
A proud member of thePsychCraft Network, the goal of
this podcast is to demystifytherapy, what can happen in
therapy and the wide array ofconversations you can have in
and about therapy Throughpersonal experiences.
Guests will talk about therapy,their experiences with it and
(00:24):
how psychology and therapy arepresent in many places in their
lives, with lots of authenticityand a touch of humor.
Here is your host, steve Bisson.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Alors peut-être très loin.
Slowly but surely we're gettinginto the new studio.
I know you've seen a few ofthem, but I'm still working on a
few kinks.
So we're back in the originalstudio.
Welcome to episode 192.
Episode 191 was about grief andthe process.
I hope you go back and listento it.
But episode 192 is with an oldfriend of the show from episode
(00:58):
29, if you can remember that.
So if you go back and listen tothat, that'd be great, because
I know that she's evolved sincethen and she's a friend of mine.
Her father has been a goodfriend of mine for several years
, but I've developed a goodfriendship with Jessica Jamison.
Jessica is a licensed mentalhealth counselor and certified
(01:19):
personal trainer and she's beenmuch more doing more with her
licensed mental health stuff,and so we talked about it before
the interview talked a littlebit about what are we going to
talk about?
Trauma, grief, and she's like,well, trauma and food, and we
kind of like like we still haveto work out the kinks, but I
hope you enjoy the interview andI'm sure we're going to figure
it out.
(01:39):
So here's the interview.
Well, welcome everyone, and I'mso excited to have a returning
guest not only a returning guest.
Let's be very frank, no punintended.
Jessica is someone I metthrough Frank, who is her father
, and I've really enjoyedtalking to Jess over the course
of several years now and youknow we have a.
(02:00):
We have this connection basedon that, but we've also
developed our own connection,which means a lot to me and I
loved her episode.
It was episode 29.
So if you want to go back andlisten to that, go ahead, but
episode 192 will be with JessicaJamieson.
Welcome.
Speaker 3 (02:16):
Thank you so much for having me again, steve, and
it's crazy.
I was thinking this I was onyour podcast, I feel like when
it was like a baby, right, I wasthinking this like I was on
your podcast, I feel like whenit was like a baby right, like
it was brand new, and I was likethis feels like it was forever
ago and I am I know, I knowyou're in a different place than
that and I've been such adifferent place in my career
(02:37):
than we recorded that.
But yeah, it's, it's crazy tobe back here and I'm I'm super
excited for this conversation.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
The best part of it, jess, is that you're.
That's what I was thinking, too, when I was like I didn't
listen to episode 29.
Again, I've listened to it overthe course of years, of course,
but literally that's four yearsago and I remember where you
were at at that point and thechange in confidence, the change
in your social media contentand how you're truly more
(03:06):
yourself everywhere else now istruly just a great thing to see,
from my perspective.
Speaker 3 (03:12):
Oh, thank you so much .
Yeah, I mean I've made some bigshifts and I think because of
because I was finally willing todo that and we can talk more
about what those were but Ifinally feel aligned with what,
with the work that I'm doing andthat has, I think, really
what's helped me be able to showup authentically.
(03:34):
I don't think I was doing itbefore.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
No, and I think that you know, because of the shift
of my podcast, we're reallytalking about grief, trauma, and
everyone thinks it's PTSD.
It doesn't have to be PTSD.
Trauma can be so many otherthings and I think that
sometimes our lack of confidenceof being ourselves comes from,
you know, past rejections, past,whatever, and what will people
(03:57):
think, and this and that, andyou know in a good way.
I think that both of us haveevolved.
Well, I think that we'vecertainly moved on move.
We still care for what peoplethink to a certain extent.
That's important too, but forthe most part, we don't give a
fuck and we're here ourselves,and that's that's a great thing,
because that takes away fromall that shame or fear that we
(04:18):
got from other people that wereimposed by other people and then
we took in, which is on us, noton anyone else, but I don't
know what you think about that.
Speaker 3 (04:25):
Oh, absolutely, I, I totally agree.
And so many of the fears that Ihad um in so it and it was
around leaving the weight lossindustry.
So that's where I started.
When we recorded episode wouldyou say 29?
I was selling weight loss,right?
I called myself a weight losscoach and I don't do that
(04:47):
anymore.
So now I work with eatingdisorders, I call myself a
therapist.
I am still a personal trainer,but I was terrified to leave the
weight loss industry because Ithought that no one would want
to work with me.
And now, like you said, like Idon't really give a shit, I am
(05:07):
helping people find healing andpeace and that means so much
more to me than what otherpeople in the you know, in the
fitness industry might think ofme comes from gaining confidence
, being true to yourself andrealizing that most of the fears
(05:30):
that we have are really notbased on reality.
Yeah, oh yeah, they were fearsthat I was making up, absolutely
.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
Well, and again, if I'm breaking a wall, we can
always cut it off the show.
But I saw that in you when wewere, oh, you know, what about
this?
What about that?
I'm like were oh, you know,what about this?
What about that?
I'm like, just be yourself,just don't worry about that
stuff.
I remember having thatconversation with you privately.
Yeah, and if I'm breaking awall here, we can always cut it
out.
But the truth is, is that I, Ifeel like I obviously we don't
(05:57):
know each other super well, butwe know enough, enough of each
other.
And I'm like yeah, jess, you're, you're enough.
Stop thinking about whateveryone else is going to
fucking think.
Speaker 3 (06:06):
Yeah, I know, and you have helped me so much with
that and along with other peoplein my life have helped me so
much with that, but I I've hadto like hire my own coaches and
seek out my own mentors to helpme break through some of that.
And it actually I remember aconversation with a business
coach about a year ago and I wasin the spot of like why do I
(06:28):
have to choose, right Like, whydo I have to choose to just
right like, stop being in theweight loss industry and not
sell weight loss?
Like, like, because I want tobe able to help people who want
to lose weight safely andefficiently and in a healthy way
.
But then I can also work withpeople struggling with
disordered eating and body image.
(06:48):
Like why do I have to choose?
And I was, like I do, rightLike.
It just hit me in that momentLike no, like I have to make
this choice, like I cannot beafraid to fully step into this.
Because it was just holding meback.
And I think that's that's whenI signed up for, for your course
like how to start your ownprivate practice, and we can,
(07:11):
you know, talk about all of thefears and blocks that I had in
terms of calling myself atherapist and how I worked
through that.
But you're so right Like I'vestruggled with confidence my
entire life.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
Right and I think that you know, in episode 29,
you did talk about this and theeating issues that came with
that and the confidence and wecould process whatever you want.
This is your podcast, because Idefinitely the other part too.
Is that not because you're myfriend, not because of anything
else?
I want to really help promoteyou because I know Jess.
I know that Jess is finallyshowing up as Jess and it's just
(07:50):
like everyone should meet Jess.
That's how I truly feel,because we were talking even
pre-interview.
I talk about movement andnutrition, not diet and exercise
, and you agreed with me rightaway.
And nutrition, not diet andexercise, and you agreed with me
right away.
And to me it's like changingthe value of particularly I know
we're going to it's going tosound sexist, but particularly
(08:11):
women who attach their valueonto this weight loss and the
exercise and what it's going tolook like, and that's all based
on trauma and shame.
So you know, I mean you can gowherever you want, because
there's so many things.
We can go with that, but youcan go wherever you want,
because there's so many thingswe can go with that.
Speaker 3 (08:25):
Oh geez, I have to take it from there, okay.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
I'm just here to host .
I'm not here to do anythingelse.
Speaker 3 (08:32):
All right, you're supposed to lead this, steve,
come on.
Yeah, no, I totally agree.
I landed here because Istruggled with disordered eating
and body image and I don't knowif I would use the word trauma
to describe I don't know.
I mean, I struggle with thatLike, and I definitely have
(08:53):
struggled over the years withtelling my story because I felt
like what I went through wasn'tbad enough, like I wasn't, I
wasn't sick enough.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
But that's not a trauma response.
It's not bad enough, right.
Speaker 3 (09:06):
Yeah, whatever.
Okay, I'm sorry.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
I'm going to shut up.
I said you're going to leadthis?
No, but you're right.
Speaker 3 (09:11):
You're right, and that's why I've enjoyed being on
podcasts so much, because it'shelped me heal immensely and own
my story Right and be able toshare it is healing right within
itself, um, and be able toreach it is healing right within
itself and be able to reachother women who might be feeling
that way, who don't want toseek support because they don't
feel like their, their foodtrauma or their body and
(09:34):
struggles are bad enough Becausethat's that's just.
It's just not true, right.
Like you know, I think thatthat food trauma can be, as we
were saying.
It can be one big thing.
It can be not having access tofood as a child, like right,
that's big.
(09:54):
Or it can be 1000 littleconversations that you've had
with your caregiver aboutcleaning your plate before you
get up from the dinner table oreating your broccoli before you
get your dessert.
Like I've worked with women whohave had, you know, numerous
body comments from their dads,their moms, their siblings, and
(10:16):
I've also had women who astranger has said one thing to
them about their appearance andthey have carried that with them
throughout their entire lives,and so so for me, I think my
struggles probably did come froma family who was obsessed with
weight loss, right Like I.
Like you know, my parents.
(10:37):
They're wonderful people and Ihad a great childhood and they
were always on a diet RightAlways, to this day they still
are.
And so as a you know, as a girlgrowing up like I carried that
with me, like I'm not worthy oflove unless, like I am small
(11:01):
enough, right, because they hadthat expectations for themselves
, so why wouldn't I, right?
So it was just years and yearsand years of growing up with
that and again, like they didn'tknow any better.
I think you know, my parentsgrew up, like you know, and they
were raising kids at the peakof diet culture, right when,
(11:21):
like beach body became superpopular and the Atkins diet and
all of that like just blew up,and so they were doing the best
that they could.
Speaker 1 (11:30):
Right.
Speaker 3 (11:31):
But you know, I think I don't know where I was going
with this.
I think just to share thattrauma when it comes to food and
body image struggle.
They don't have it doesn't haveto look a certain way and I
don't think it's oftenrecognized enough.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
Well, I'll go back to something I've said on the
podcast many times I say it tomy clients.
I'm going to say it here too,because it's important I don't
get to decide what trauma is forother people.
Speaker 3 (11:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
And then most people are like do the comparison game
of their trauma.
And I'm like, just because andagain trigger warning for those
who listen that's because younever held three blue babies,
because you're not a paramedicor a first responder doesn't
mean your trauma is not valid.
That you were at a 9-11 doesn'tmake it that you're not valid
to have trauma from watching iton TV and so on and so forth,
(12:29):
and I think that the part that Ialways kind of remind,
especially around food andappearances.
you know, I know your parents, Iknow they're great people and
people do the best they can withwhat they got and any
information they receive.
You know, and to me, like again, I'm not defending any of them,
I'm just realizing that's thesame thing I've said about my
parents.
They did the best they can.
If they purposely screwed me up, I'd be like, okay, they
purposely fucked me up.
But I know your parents, I knowfor a fact they never tried to
purposely do this.
Speaker 3 (12:48):
Of course not.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
That doesn't mean it doesn't affect you and it
doesn't have trauma.
And that's why, like for me,food trauma, like most people
don't want to recognize thatbecause, like, that's not
important enough.
Well, if you're afraid to eat afucking donut Sorry, I'm
swearing a lot.
I mean, there's something reallystrange about that.
If you're afraid of eating 12donuts at the same time, okay, I
(13:09):
get that one, but eating adonut and I mean it's a great
way to introduce a little bit ofwhat you do too, but you know
the donuts and dumbbell stuff.
Speaker 3 (13:27):
But to me, that's where the trauma lies, is that
you can't eat a donut Really.
Yeah, I totally I.
So I mainly work.
I mainly work with women, youknow, in there I would say ages
30 to 60, um, so all differentages and, yeah, the you know
what they struggle with isthings like that food noise,
right, it's just constant.
It's constant and there's a lotof shame and guilt, followed by
(13:47):
by what they, what they eat.
Right, they eat and then theyfeel so much shame and guilt
about it and then the processjust starts all over.
And so and I am trying to, I'verecently learned this, I was
reading about it but we, weoften see eating disorders as
kind of like a maladaptivecoping skill.
Right, like, so there's somesort of trauma that occurred and
(14:10):
then the eating disorder is amaladaptive way to cope with
that trauma.
And what I would argue when I'mactually like, feel, like I'm
seeking to understand in thismoment I do this work is that
it's active trauma, right, likewe.
If you think about the bingerestrict cycle or someone who
(14:33):
struggles with bulimia, you arein an active state of trauma,
like you are.
You are not feeling safe inyour body right and your body
does not trust you to keep itsafe when you're engaging in
those behaviors.
So it's just this, you know, Ithink it's.
It really helps to see thosestruggles with food and body as
(14:55):
as not only a response to trauma, but you're you're currently
living in it.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
I mean, I don't, I don't want to go neurologically
too far, but when you have shameor what people would describe
as negative emotions there's nosuch thing, by the way, but
that's a different story for adifferent day but you know, with
a shame do, it results intocortisol in your brain going off
.
And what does cortisol do islike oh, and I'm in a fight or
(15:23):
flight response, I got to savethis fat.
So not only by shaming yourselfare you perpetuating the trauma
, and it's an active trauma.
You're also like oh, yourbody's like oh, we got to store
this donut because, and thenwhat does it happen?
It also affects yourphysiological aspect of your
life.
So, yeah, it is active traumaand it is absolutely what food
can do in your brain and how youperceive it.
Speaker 3 (15:46):
Yeah, yeah, I agree.
And the crazy thing about foodis that you can't just stop
eating.
Speaker 2 (15:50):
Right.
Speaker 3 (15:51):
Right, like you can't , you have to eat to live, and
so I think that makes healingyour relationship with food
incredibly difficult.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
But we also, we, we don't have a choice well, you
know, and again I'll share myrecent and I'm going to just go
and over over some some of thestuff, not completely in detail.
You know I I did wagovi forabout six months and I was
losing the weight.
And I lost the weight and I'mno longer on it for other
(16:23):
medical conditions that I reallydon't want to share here right
now.
But one of the things thatpeople would say to me which
always perplexed me they're likeoh, you're not hungry, then
don't eat.
Like that's not a goal in life.
Speaker 3 (16:34):
Not to eat no.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
I'm like what?
And in my head, maybe becauseI'm a dude I'm like how is that
even fucking smart?
And then I realized thatthere's a lot of this perpetual
societal oh, you're eating toomany things and that's why if
you don't eat, you'll be fineand perpetuates that trauma,
perpetuating anorexia andbulimia, because if you eat,
(16:56):
obviously you got to throw it upbecause God forbid, it stays in
your fucking body.
Speaker 3 (17:00):
Yeah, yeah, I always tell my clients sometimes eating
disorders are not about thefood.
Sometimes they're actuallyabout food, and if you are not
eating enough, or if you, orsometimes maybe you are, but
there's because there's adifference between physical
(17:21):
restriction of the food and amental restriction.
So someone and they might beeating the food, but it's
they're shaming themselves, likeas they do it after they do it
Right, like telling themselveslike never again I start over
Monday, right.
So that's an example of more oflike the mental restriction.
But, yeah, not eating enough,not fueling your body
(17:45):
consistently, is only gonna isonly gonna make things worse.
But that's what society tellsus to do, right, that's what
diet tells us.
Diet culture tells us to do tolose weight is just restrict
what you're eating and that'sthat's the worst thing that you
can do to for your body, becausethen it doesn't trust you.
It doesn't trust you to takecare of yourself and to listen
to your internal cues versusfollowing all these external
(18:07):
rules.
Speaker 2 (18:08):
Right, and I think that this is something I was
when you were saying that.
All I could think of is, everytime I've been over to your
parents' house or your house oryour family's house, there's
always a ton of food, all thefood pushing in my family.
Speaker 3 (18:21):
It's unreal.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
And it's always like.
It's kind of like a message.
They're like wait a minute,we're on a diet, so to speak,
which should be nutrition, butanyway.
But there's like tables of food, not the expression of tables
of food, there's literallytables of food at your house
expression of tables of food.
Speaker 3 (18:38):
There's literally tables of food at your house,
literally.
Yeah, yeah, the food stuff inmy family.
It's absolutely fascinating.
So I come from like a bigItalian family, like we are all
about food.
But yeah, like it's, and that'smaybe why I struggled with food
, because I was so confused.
Right, like you're.
Right Like I on one end, I had,you know, I grew up with not
only just my parents butextended family members always
(19:00):
on diets.
Yet at every occasion, everytiny little celebration, like
big or small, like there wasfood.
It was all about the food andyou were being told you have to
eat more.
Right, like, the first thingthat would happen when a guest
comes to my house is my mom islike what can I get you?
What do you need to eat?
I have this, I have this, Ihave this.
Like I'm not hungry.
(19:21):
Okay, well, how about this?
So it was.
It's this crazy back and forthwith the food stuff and again,
looking back, it's like nowonder I had so much food noise
Right, right, right as a.
No wonder I had so much foodnoise right, right, right as a
teenager.
But yeah, in setting boundariesaround food and my family has
(19:44):
been huge in my healing and mymom hasn't liked it and other
family members haven't liked it,but that's definitely something
that I've had to do for me andin my recovery.
Speaker 2 (19:59):
Well, I think that there's a couple of things.
First of all, I think it'simportant because a lot of
families are like that.
I think that you see that a lotin most westernized cultures,
Food is a sign of wealth, so tospeak.
You know, and as we go along in2025, it definitely is.
But I also think that you know,maybe it's helpful to think
(20:20):
about how you kind of got overwith setting those limits and
boundaries with your family,Because even when I'm there, I
sometimes I will not love youFrank, Love you Dory.
This is not about non love, butlike oh, you want more?
No, I'm good.
No, no, Are you sure you want?
Like, what do I say to that?
I mean, come on, stop.
(20:41):
Like I think that once in awhile I'll say, oh, I have two
legs, I could definitely getthere if I want you know, but I
think that it's important tokind of like share, kind of like
how to set those limits andboundaries to people, so that
you know, even if family won'tlike it by the way, a lot of
people won't like it, and that'sfine, you're not there to
please them.
Speaker 3 (21:00):
And that's exactly what I had to get over, right,
that was huge for me andrealizing like people are not
going to like these boundariesand it doesn't matter.
You know, and I think, yeah,and I think you can, you can be
very gentle, right, you can takethat approach or you can get
spicy and sassy with it.
(21:21):
I think it's.
It really depends on the personon on either side, like how you
want to handle it and how,right, how you think that other,
how you want to handle it withthat other person.
Knowing that I'm a super spicy,sarcastic person, so like that
is the route that I might take,but not everyone is like that,
and my mom is not like that atall.
(21:43):
So I have learned to be a littlebit more gentle with her, while
still keeping my boundariesaround food very firm and very
clear.
And she makes sassy remarks tome all the time about boundaries
(22:03):
that I set with my kids and howI want food and bodies to be
talked about around my children,and I don't think she likes it.
But she listens to it and sherespects it.
But it has taken like mesetting those clear and firm
boundaries over and over again,and anyone out there is
listening who is trying to setboundaries with their family
around food.
It takes time and patiencebecause these boundaries are new
(22:25):
, right, and we need to givepeople time to adjust to them.
Speaker 2 (22:29):
Not only that, it's a well-worn road right.
We celebrate, we have food.
People don't feel good, webring food.
That's the other thing I likeabout.
I find particularly fascinatingabout funerals, Whereas there
are a ton of, when you'regrieving and having all this
cortisol shooting out of you, alot of food and a lot of booze,
and to me it's like what a setupfor failure for anyone there.
(22:50):
And setting those boundariesare tough, especially when
they're down because of griefand struggles.
But you're right, I think thatlearning to not people, please,
I think is very, very.
Speaker 3 (23:02):
Yeah, yeah, for sure, because I that's, that's what
we want to do, especially whenit comes to food, because, like
you've said, it's it's a waythat we often express our love
and care, and we don't want tomake someone feel rejected and
yeah, go ahead.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
I was going to ask you so, realizing that it has
nothing to do with a rejectionof others, but how you feel, and
I think that that's the changeof control.
Like we, we feel like we got tocontrol people's reactions.
Unfortunately, that's wrongbecause you can't control them.
Number one and number two evenif you try to do your best to
control it, you're screwed.
I'm not saying to be impolite,but I'm saying don't try to
(23:42):
control things you can't control.
Speaker 3 (23:44):
Yeah, yeah.
And if we go back to trauma,right, like we have experienced
trauma again big T trauma, smallT trauma, whatever seek that
control, and I think that istotally true when it comes to
food right, we want to controlit so bad and I always encourage
(24:06):
my clients to let go of thatcontrol and instead of trying to
control it, your job is torespond to your body right and
if you're so you know, circleback to the food, pushing or
being around family who showslove and affection for food and
always wanting you to eat more.
Right, like you can't.
(24:26):
You're right, you can't controlthat right, but you can tune in
and respond to your body andits needs at that moment and you
can say yes or no based on that.
Speaker 2 (24:36):
And I think that that's what's important is that
you don't need to listen to theexterior cues.
You got to listen to yourinternal cues and we've changed
in society how we perceive thatbecause we let the external cues
control what we want.
Speaker 3 (24:51):
Oh, absolutely.
That's what diet culture hasdone right All of these weight
loss programs is they give yourules and guidelines to follow
and all my clients come to meand they're like, well, I need
the rules, I do better.
Right, I do better with therules.
Challenge that you think thatyou do right, but it's because
(25:12):
you have been completelystripped of your intuition, of
your ability to tune into yourbody and be an intuitive eater,
to be an intuitive mover,because if you watch kids eat
like I have young kids if youwatch them eat, they are such
little intuitive eaters.
It's amazing like my daughterwill eat her broccoli and leave
(25:33):
a piece of cookie right,something, something that, as
adults, we're like.
I would never do that right.
Speaker 2 (25:41):
Because all of those external rules have taken away.
I think that we created thisunforbidden fruit, and I think
that that's the other part too.
That I think is the problem isthat what's wrong with eating a
cookie?
Nothing.
But when your body needscarrots or needs celery, you see
it as a punishment instead ofseeing your body wants that.
(26:02):
Stop thinking about it as apunishment or a reward and think
about it as food and fuel foryour body.
Speaker 3 (26:08):
Yes, yeah, I mean yeah, we could have a whole
conversation around foodlabeling and what that has done
to our ability to be intuitiveeaters.
But yeah, I am all about likebalancing what you want with
what you know your body needs,and that's something that I
think it.
When you have been a chronicdieter, you've been on diet
(26:31):
after diet after diet.
You don't know how to do that.
Speaker 2 (26:35):
Well, let's, let's switch gears.
Gears for a second, because Iwant to talk, also because
you're a personal trainer also.
Well, you know, I ate at yourparents' house a lot, so I'm
going to go to the gym, wear along sleeve shirt with some
plastic bags around me so I canlose all my weight that I gained
from eating all the food.
I'd like you to talk like andagain I you laugh, but how many
(27:00):
people think that way?
Speaker 3 (27:00):
Number one and number two, I'm laughing because I did
that kind of stuff Right Like Iwhen I, when I first got into
fitness.
It was coming from a veryunhealthy place and I didn't see
that because it was normalizedright Like.
So you know, I I found a lot ofhealing and weightlifting.
(27:23):
I do believe that weightliftinglike completely saved my life
and I still live to this day.
But if I really look back on it, exercise for me was obsessive
and it wasn't healthy and Iburned my body to the ground
doing it and doing crazy thingslike that.
Like I would look up and likedo research on, like how to
sweat more after a meal to likeburn it all off.
Speaker 2 (27:45):
Like I'm sorry for laughing, but I get it.
Speaker 3 (27:48):
This stuff that I did was crazy.
I broke my arm right so I'vereally, because of my struggles
with disordered eating, I lostmy menstrual cycle when I was a
teenager and so I have likereally poor like bone density,
so I've broken like I don't knowfive different bones and I
(28:09):
broke my arm in college and Iwould go to the gym and get on
the elliptical with a broken armand people would be like, oh my
gosh, good for you, like Ican't believe you're here again.
Like you're so disciplined, like, wow, like I don't know if I
could do that, like I waspraised for all of that stuff
and that just kept me in it,right, because, oh geez, right,
my thought process was, like,well, what if I stop?
(28:30):
Right, like what are they goingto think of me if I don't go to
the gym for three hours a dayand I gain weight?
Like, what is everyone going tothink of me if I don't go to
the gym for three hours a dayand, again, wait, like what is
everyone going to think?
Right, they're going to judgeme for that.
And so, yeah, I, in my ownhealing, I have completely
changed the way that I seeexercise and movement and
fitness and I now use it as amodality for for healing in my
(28:54):
work with clients.
And so I you know you can't, Ican't take the personal trainer
out of the therapist and thetherapist out of the personal
trainer.
It just can't.
So I bring you know, I bringboth into both you know
disciplines into the work that Ido.
And, yeah, it's, it's super fun.
And I believe that fitnessshould be fun and as an act of
(29:17):
self-care and not, like you said, punishment for the gigantic
meal that you ate.
Speaker 2 (29:23):
Well, I think it's also very important to think
about that.
I don't think you should everseparate the personal trainer
from the therapist.
Speaker 1 (29:31):
And that's important.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
I'm just going to go on a small rant and come back.
When I have people who come tome about being a therapist and
all that, and I said, don't makethe mistake of losing yourself,
and they always go, what do?
You mean Stop wearing the maskof whatever the hell you learn
Be yourself.
And yes, you can be yourself andprofessional, and both can work
.
But most people don't get that.
You know the asshole behaviorand the sarcastic tone that I
(29:56):
use has paid dividends to memore than I can say in therapy.
But if you listen to some ofthe professors and teachers that
I had, they would have saidyou're going to push people away
and that's not, that's notprofessional and that's not
ethical or whatever.
Like I'd like to.
I'd like to tell them to go Fthemselves at this point, but
anyway.
Speaker 3 (30:15):
No, no, you're so right and I can't tell you how
long that took me to learn Rightand we that's what we talked
about at the beginning of thisepisode in it Right and I left.
You know the clinical positionthat I had after, after I
graduated, to pursue personaltraining because I had a
miserable grad school experience.
So I have my.
(30:35):
I got my master's in familytherapy, which I obviously don't
do for a reason props to allthe family therapists out there.
But like they, I startedrealizing, I think, in grad
school, that the mind bodyconnection was so important and
but I don't think that anyone atthe time, like my professors
(30:58):
and stuff, like I don't thinkthey, like no one was supportive
of that.
Like I had this vision of howhow do I integrate both and I
wanted to figure that out sobadly but I just didn't.
I didn't get the support at thetime and I left.
I completely left the field foryears to pursue personal
training and eventually landedmyself back here when and I'm
(31:21):
still figuring it all out Istill I have this vision and I
don't know if I've quite gottenthere, but I have all the faith
and hope in the world that Iwill, because it's something
that I am super passionate about.
Like I said, using usingmovement as a modality for
healing.
Speaker 2 (31:42):
Well, that that's you know, and I don't have any
doubt you'll get there.
I think it takes a while to getto that confidence level for
just about anyone, but it wouldalways frustrate me when I and
this is this is just between youand you and my audience at this
point, when you would tell meoh yeah, I'm a personal trainer,
you're a therapist also, butI'm a personal trainer.
're a therapist also, but I'm apersonal trainer.
Yeah, you're a therapist also,and I had these fights with you,
if you remember.
Uh, it got real fun by the waywe get a lot of great but yeah,
(32:03):
no, and I think that that's whatone of the things is that never
remove yourself from who youare and that also saves you a
lot.
And when we talk aboutnutrition and trauma, about
movement and trauma, it neveryou.
You know, like I, one of myclients recently, who's a
personal trainer, showed me aresearch that shows that cardio
actually doesn't work as well asbuilding muscle, and building
(32:28):
muscle will actually help youlose more weight than doing
cardio, and I found thatfascinating.
It's a great study.
If I can find it, I'll link itin the show notes, but it's
changing our thought process andnot dismissing it.
That's really important.
Speaker 3 (32:42):
Yeah, yeah, and we talked about all of those rules
around food and we also haverules around fitness and
exercise and the work that I dois really helping clients.
Let that go.
You know the work that I do isreally helping clients let that
go.
Like I don't, I honestly don'tcare that lifting weights is
better for weight loss thancardio.
(33:02):
I honestly I don't, right, likeI care which one you find fun.
I care about what lights you up, what makes you feel strong and
confident, and if you're acardio person, great.
If you're a person who loves tolift, awesome.
But like I can't tell you howmany half marathon, half
(33:25):
marathons that I've run that Ihave been so freaking miserable.
Like I hate running, but I didit because I thought that I
should.
Speaker 2 (33:33):
Right.
Speaker 3 (33:34):
And I now.
I will occasionally go out fora light run because I want to,
and for no other reason thanthat.
Speaker 2 (33:46):
I think I was talking to someone.
I never got that runner's highand I ran a couple of half
marathons myself.
Speaker 3 (33:51):
No, I never did.
Speaker 2 (33:53):
And I'm like nowadays , like I, as I joke around with
some of my clients who continuerunning, I say, oh, I've kind of
like hung my shoes up fromdoing half marathons and all
that because truly I don't enjoythem.
I it helped me in many ways,but I don't enjoy it now.
I enjoy walks, I enjoy gettingon a bike, which if you told me
(34:15):
10 years ago I'd get on a bikeand enjoy it, I would have said
you're wrong.
And so things change also inrespect.
You're the evolution of humanbeings you talk about yeah you
know you don't care about muscleversus, uh, cardio and all that
.
To me it's the same thing'slike if you start enjoying
really lifting weights and liftweights.
Who cares?
It's movement, that's important.
Speaker 3 (34:34):
Yeah, it's all it, it all counts, it all counts.
And, um, I think that's youknow where I've moved into on
the personal training side of mybusiness and I wish, again, I
wish they weren't so separate,like to have to call myself a
therapist and a personal trainer.
I'm like I need to come up withone word for this.
Like you know, I wish that Icould.
(34:55):
So what I have been moving intois trauma-informed personal
training and that feels soaligned, because you know, it's
really about that clientautonomy, right, and to be able
to speak up for yourself and sayI don't like this, this doesn't
feel good to me, this doesn'tfeel safe.
You know, and me understanding,right, that trauma is history
(35:21):
and how someone might show up.
So, for example, if someone'scanceling on me all the time,
you know I'm not going to justjump to well, this person isn't
motivated enough, they don'tunderstand their why.
Big enough, it's just notimportant enough to them.
Like, no, like there'ssomething deeper going on here
that is preventing this personfrom showing up to their
(35:44):
personal training sessions andwe need to work, we need to work
through some of that.
And then, you know, making sure, you know, I think consent is
huge.
You know, asking clients likeare you okay with this?
Like, what do you want out ofyour session?
Like, are you okay if I correctyou on your form right, would
you?
Would you rather end with somegentle stretching today, or
(36:07):
would you rather, you know, do acardio finisher Right and
helping them being able to liketune into what they need for
movement that day Again, like wesaid, instead of following some
sort of rule about like what'sbest for whatever.
Speaker 2 (36:24):
Right, Well, you know I came up with a name for you.
If you ever wanted.
Speaker 3 (36:28):
Yes, please.
Speaker 2 (36:30):
You're a movement therapist.
Speaker 3 (36:31):
Oh, all right, I can roll with that.
Speaker 2 (36:35):
Trademark.
I saved it.
I got trademark.
No one can listen.
Speaker 3 (36:38):
Interesting but.
Speaker 2 (36:39):
I think that's like when you were talking.
I'm like we were againpre-interview.
I'm done with the diet exerciseworld.
I am in a movement andnutrition world and I thought
that the movement with thetherapy would probably be a good
way to combine both of it.
But anyway, I've trademarked it, so you'll owe me all the
trademark money you make out ofit.
(37:00):
I'm all joking, of course but, Iwant to kind of like wrap it up
here, because I want to hearmore about a little bit of you
know.
What are you doing right nowand what do you want to like
talk about and how people canreach you, Because I think it's
important.
Speaker 3 (37:16):
Yeah, so I have my own private practice in the
eating disorder and body imagespace.
Like I said, I work mainly withwomen and with with a specialty
in binge eating, emotionalimage, emotional eating and body
image challenges, and I I'm a Ifeel that you do not have to
come to me with some like DSMdiagnosis.
(37:37):
I think these challenges reallydo exist on a spectrum and if
you are just someone who isstruggling with again that food
noise and that shame, like I,just I do encourage you to seek
support from a, from a licensedtherapist who specializes in
disordered eating.
And then I also offer personaltraining and, again, my my
(37:59):
specialty there is clients withmental health challenges.
So I would say all of mypersonal training clients have
therapists.
I am just in the role ofhelping you work on your
physical health as your trainer.
Yeah, and you can find me on mywebsite, revolutionhccom, and on
Instagram.
I try really hard to keep upwith posting there and you'll
(38:22):
find content that is weightinclusive, from a health at
every size standpoint.
And, yeah, my handle is at JessB Jameson.
Speaker 2 (38:31):
So I'll put all that in the show notes and I hope
people do reach you, reach outto you and if you go see her
social media, I give credit toJess.
I don't have that exposure ofmyself like she does and she's
just such a magnificent job.
So go check it out.
And then, diagnosing wise, Ijust want to say, if you want to
have fun one day and realizethat diagnosing doesn't mean as
(38:51):
much as most people think, gocheck out.
And I had to look it up whilewe were talking.
But this is a real diagnosis.
It's W56.12.
Everyone who is listening,please go check it out, put it
as an ICD-10 code and then tellme what it was, write it in the
notes or send me a DM and you'llall laugh and this will prove
to you how unimportant thosediagnoses truly are All right.
Speaker 3 (39:16):
W56.12.
Got it.
Don't tell anyone.
Speaker 2 (39:20):
Don't tell anyone if you're doing it up, all right,
well, please reach out to Jess.
And now, jess, we didn't have aplan and I think we did a
magnificent job of just beingourselves here, so I really
appreciate your time and all thecompliments I gave you.
I hope you understand this isnot a podcast thing, it's truly
things I mean.
(39:40):
So happy to see you as amovement therapist.
Speaker 3 (39:45):
Thank you so much for having me, steve.
Your mentorship means the worldto me.
Well, thank you I for having me, steve I um.
Your mentorship means the worldto me.
Speaker 2 (39:50):
Well, thank you, I try, I do my best.
Well, that completes episode192.
Again, jessica jameson.
Thank you so much.
Friend of the show, friend ofmine, great interview I'm.
I enjoyed torily through heremore about her, her evolution
not only as an lmhc and howshe's doing everything and
working with the eating habitsof individuals so they can have
(40:10):
a healthy life.
But episode 193 will berecurring co-host, courtney
Romanowski.
She'll be talking with me toLisa Manka and I can't wait to
do this at that interview and Ihope you join us then.
Speaker 1 (40:24):
Please like, subscribe and follow this
podcast on your favoriteplatform.
A glowing review is alwayshelpful and, as a reminder, this
podcast is for informational,educational and entertainment
purposes only.
If you're struggling with amental health or substance abuse
issue, please reach out to aprofessional counselor for
consultation.
If you are in a mental healthcrisis, call 988 for assistance.
(40:47):
This number is available in theUnited States and Canada.
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