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Episode Transcript
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(00:01):
Welcome to Fintech Confidential, bringingyou the people, tech, and companies
that change how you pay and get paid.

Stephany Kirkpatrick, Orum (00:11):
our kids,
they're going to look at us and be like,sorry, you use your account number.
What is that?
I say this advice a lot, and I thinkit's way easier to say than it is to do.
Because fintech has more barriers toentry from a regulatory perspective,
don't spread yourself thin.
Hone your first product.
not all revenue is a good ideaGood revenue will help you

(00:32):
unlock product market fit andthe way that you get to scale

Tedd Huff, Fintech Confidential: I am super thrilled. (00:36):
undefined
I finally get to sit down withThe legend, Stephany Kirkpatrick,
the founder and CEO of Orum

Stephany Kirkpatrick, Orum: it's our five year birthday. (00:46):
undefined
Um, that means we're justhalfway to an overnight success.
at Orum, we are a remote companyand we use a fun little thing
in our Slack called donut.
And it automatically randomly pairsyou with somebody else in the company.
So once a week you havea 15 minute donut chat.
and that actually started five yearsago when we started figuring out
how to build a remote first company.

(01:07):
The way that you send an ACH andthe way a bank receives that is very
different than the way you send awire, which is very different than
the way you do an RTP, which is alsodifferent than how you do FedNow.
And it's gotten increasinglymore complicated.
I think in five to 10 years time,
when we move money,
we will have data Embeddedin a way that today.

(01:29):
We don't

Tedd Huff, Fintech Confidential: Support provided by Skyflow. (01:30):
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(02:33):
Welcome to an episode of FinTechconfidential leaders, a one on
one series where I sit down withFinTech leaders to uncover their
stories behind their passion, theirexpertise and their leadership.
Today I am super thrilled.
I finally get to sit down withThe legend, Stephany Kirkpatrick,
the founder and CEO of Orum.

(02:55):
They're a fintech that hasbeen revolutionizing the way
that money is getting movedand the way people look at it.
Now, her journey is somethingthat has not only been inspiring,
but is extremely impressive.
She's, uh, A daughter, an immigrantand has dedicated her career to

(03:16):
helping those with less have more.
Now, her entry into financial technologyand fintech in general was becoming
a certified financial planner.
So she hopefully she's gotsome good stock tips for me.
She has also been found on Inc.
Inc.
Magazines.
2024.
top 250 Female Founders.

(03:41):
and also, this year, she's celebratingthe fifth anniversary of Orum.
They founded in 2019 and they've been ableto add reliability and speed to payments.
But one of the things that I am just AndI'm just enamored by the fact that you've
been able to raise 82 over over 82 milliondollars in financing to drive this mission

(04:04):
forward and building that infrastructurethat really aims to maximize the financial
potential of every American household.
Today, we're going to dive into Orum.
We're going to dive into some leadershiplessons from, from Stephany, from
building this from the ground up.
And well, Stephany, Iwant to welcome you to

the show.
Well, thank you so much for having me.
I'm excited to be here and I lovedigging into all the topics we're about
to talk about, but especially for thosethat are listening, as you mentioned
that it's our five year birthday.
Um, that means we're justhalfway to an overnight success.

Tedd Huff, Fintech Confidential: Oh, well, yesterday we had the (04:43):
undefined
opportunity to sit down and have somegreat donuts at Donutique yesterday.
We did.

Stephany Kirkpatrick, Orum: And what else did we get to do? (04:49):
undefined

Tedd Huff, Fintech Confidential: Oh yeah, we got the matching (04:51):
undefined
outfits today going on.
So we, we really, one of the thingsthat I thought was really interesting
and I didn't realize this until Istarted doing even more research
is the Donutique piece of it.
Was that inspired by your, yourdonut meetings at the office

(05:14):
or was it the other way around?

Stephany Kirkpatrick, Orum: That's a very good question. (05:16):
undefined
So let's back up and I'll give youa little bit of context and history.
Um, so for those that arelistening, I'm Stephany.
I'm the founder and CEO of acompany called Orum, and I'm
so thrilled to be here today.
Orum transforms payment technologyfor businesses, and we do that
by revolutionizing paymentspeed, payment certainty.
And payment orchestration.
And that's all done via ourunified API based solutions.

(05:38):
And we'll talk more aboutwhat all that means.
Um, but yes, at Orum, we are a remotecompany and we use a fun little
thing in our Slack called donut.
And it automatically randomly pairsyou with somebody else in the company.
So once a week you havea 15 minute donut chat.
Um, and that actually started fiveyears ago when we started figuring out
how to build a remote first company.

(05:58):
We raised institutionalcapital in the spring of 2020.
I was barefoot in my five year old'sbedroom, and every other VC out there was
also sitting at home somewhere figuringout how this was all going to work.
Um, so that's the genesisof Donuts at Work.
Here in Money 20/20, usingDonutique to build the Orum Cafe.
First of all, credit to our brilliant, uh,leader, Greg, who runs commercial at Orum.

(06:23):
Um, but we do that because we wantto have a really rich emotional
connection with our customers, ourprospects, our financial partners.
And everybody's here lookingfor something that's during the
middle of the day, not alcohol.
Um, they're looking for a wayto connect, unwind, be joyful.
And I don't know, I couldn't thinkof a lot of better things besides
donuts to bring that to life.

Tedd Huff, Fintech Confidential (06:44):
So we talked about, you know, starting
as a certified financial planner,you've had a couple of detours of some,
a little bit of fun in the middle.
Um, help us understand, you know, how didyou go from the financial planner space?
You spent some time at a Soul Cycle.

I did do that.
Yes.
And then,

Tedd Huff, Fintech Confidential: and then, then Orum, like help us (07:04):
undefined
understand that, that not so linear path

Yes, the journey's not entirely obvious, and I bet
for a lot of entrepreneurs this is true.
Um, I did start my career as acertified financial planner, and
as you said, I am the daughter ofan immigrant who came to the U.
S.
with nothing, and most of my life wascolored by understanding what it's
like to have to decide which billto pay, or what it's like to wait.
Sometimes weeks, months for receivablesto come into the small business

(07:35):
that my parents were running.
I just really like colored theway I think about the impact
I want to have in my career.
So I became a CFP and actually startedfocused in the advice ecosystem.
So how do we help otherswho have less have more?
Initially that was for retirementplanning and then ultimately that was
for financial planning broadly andI was very fortunate to work in In

(07:55):
a technology role that allowed me tonot just think about the impact to
people, but the scale technology couldprovide to providing financial advice.
And while I was at LearnVest, um,building what became the sort of IP
for the company, so I'm the principalinventor and patent holder for the
intellectual property we created.
I had this really big aha,which is, you can get financial

(08:18):
advice to the masses now.
And you can get people excited to saveand invest even small amounts of money.
But what they're challengedby isn't behavior change.
They're challenged by a fundamentalflaw in the infrastructure
that serves financial services.
And so people would look you in theeye and say, I'd love to put money
in a high yield savings, but I can'tbecause I need to move it back to

(08:39):
my checking account on a Saturday.
If I have an emergency, Ican't get there fast enough.
And it's heartbreaking to thinkthat, 2 trillion dollars sits idle
in checking accounts for consumers,let alone what happens in businesses
that could be optimized to buildwealth, to generate savings.
And so my insight was derived from beinga financial planner, and that is why I

(09:01):
ultimately built Orum so that we couldbuild infrastructure that's going to
fundamentally change financial services.
But yes, there was a left turn, and
I went to SoulCycle.
Um, because as I thought aboutmy career, and I hope for those
listening, This resonates.
I realized that I'd reallyonly done two things.
I'd done digital and that was powerfulat the time and I'd done financial

(09:24):
advice, but I'd never touched thesupply chain hardware physical goods.
I'd never understood what it's liketo run a brick and mortar business.
And so when I was leaving FinTech for aminute I was looking for three things.
One, I wanted to be domiciledin New York City because I've
been doing a lot of travel.
Um, And actually, before that,my real number one was I wanted

(09:45):
to work for another female CEO.
At LearnVest, I'd beenworking for a female CEO.
I wanted to find that again.
I wanted to be domiciled in New York.
And I wanted to work in a categoryI could get excited about.
And so it led me toSoulCycle, taught me a lot.
And as I turned to the next corner, tobuild Orum, a handful of folks that I
built relationships with on the teamand as partners through that experience

(10:07):
ended up coming as early employees.
And now a fair number of, uh, two membersof the executive team and a couple
other folks within the company are fromthe SoulCycle era, which is totally
wild because we all were able to turnour curiosity into something that's
now building an absolutely incrediblenew foundation for financial services.

What was that, that moment that like when,
when you're at SoulCycle and you'reready to That decision point, I, I, I'm
ready to, to take this next journey.
I'm ready to solve thisproblem of money movement.

(10:47):
What was that?
What was that like?

Well, it was certainly an interesting moment
in time because I had always kind ofseen myself as a great number two.
And I imagine a lot of people canappreciate the feeling of imposter
syndrome thinking, I'm not a founder.
You know, I'm not really goingto go start a company by myself.
Um, and, you know, I am not only a femalefounder, which, you know, realistically
does mean that there's less venturecapital available, but I'm also a

(11:11):
non technical founder, so my biggesthurdle to overcome was, I don't write
code myself, I can think technically,uh, but my strengths are in commercial
and go to market and product and otherthings, so it was intimidating, and what
really pushed me was somebody sayingthis is a worth building idea, and if

(11:32):
you want to continue to have impact,And I kind of went back to my roots.
In financial advice, we couldreach millions of Americans.
Um, by building infrastructure thatpowers the way money moves, you can
reach hundreds of millions of Americanwallets, businesses, and consumers.
And that is what ultimatelytipped me to say, Impostor

(11:54):
Syndrome, you go back in a box.
I'll get a coach for that, whichI did, and I love my coach.
And I took the leap of faith.
Um, That said, I really encouragefolks who are kind of at the
precipice of thinking about foundinga company to consider three things.
One is, are you set up financiallyto stop getting a paycheck?
Like, do you have an emergency savings?
Are you ready to go out and do six,nine, 12 months without drawing a salary,

(12:19):
because that may be what it takes.
I think being financiallyprepared is really important.
Um, number two, are you thinkingabout something that you want
to spend 10 years on Right.
We're five years into Orum.
And people are just startingto know who Orum is.
By the time you hear of a successfulcompany, they're ten years in.
And so if your idea doesn'tcompel you, then you're going to

(12:41):
find yourself really struggling.
And the third, and I thinkreally important thing is,
is there a venture scale?
You mentioned how much money we've raised.
I'm very proud of that.
It's also terrifying to think aboutthe expectations to return that
money, not times two, not times three.
People want exponential returns.
And the reason I'm convicted that Orumis venture scale is because when you

(13:03):
think about money movement, which lastyear there was 80 trillion dollars
moved via ACH, our 50 year old workhorsesystem, 1 percent of all money movement
was on the new real time systems.
If you think about transformingpayment technology for businesses, the
impact of taking that 80 trillion andmaking it faster, smarter, data rich.

(13:27):
It's six times bigger thanVisa's global business last year.
That's how I know that it's aventure backable, scalable thing.
And it is sometimes slow and sometimeshard because we work in a regulated space.
But it is infinitely worth it.
And it will drive me for anotherten years, if not longer.

Tedd Huff, Fintech Confidential: Hey, Ted Huff here. (13:47):
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(14:07):
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You've talked about theimpact to the consumer wallet.
You've talked about infrastructure.
Help us understand Who is the target thatyou're, you're trying to serve directly?

Well, let's break it down into products and then
we'll talk about who uses those products.
So today, under our unified APIsolutions, we have one product
called Deliver, which is our uniquedirect to Fed money movement API.
It moves money 24 7, 365, and it's gotRTP, FedNow, ACH, same to ACH, wires,
and, uh, New visa direct products in itso that you can use a simple solution to

(14:59):
actually think about payment optimizationand payment orchestration, right?
So we can do things like offer bankrate pricing because we work directly
with the federal reserve bank, right?
We don't go through layers and layersof technology with other folks.
We do every available processing windows.
We speed up the time that money isavailable to move and we optimize when
businesses want to move money fast orslow depending on what they are solving

(15:20):
for Um, and then we offer somethingreally unique, which is that you can track
transfers down to the penny in our portal.
So you can settle, reconcile, andalways know where the transfer or
the dollars are at any given time.
And folks love our products becausethey can integrate in two weeks or less.
So understanding kind of how weoperate is important because then
we can talk about who buys it.

(15:43):
Let me tell you a little bit about Verifyand then we'll come back to the the
buyer Verify was born out of our businesscustomers telling us over and over again
that bank account verification is a brokensolution that they aren't able to use
because in the business world, folks thatrun PNLs don't have the banking log in to
use something like plaid or an aggregator.

(16:05):
And they don't want to think aboutwhether or not it's two o'clock on
Friday before NACHA window cutoff, right?
They just know they need to pay suppliersand pay vendors and make payroll.
And so Verify allows us to take whatwe built in deliver and actually take
advantage of building on top of, not justusing money movement, but building on
top of faster payment systems like RTPand FedNow to communicate in the real

(16:28):
time networks about the account status.
So we check the status.
We check if the owner is engagedand then we can confirm whether or
not the name on the account matches.
So when you put those two thingstogether, you have payment
speed and payment certainty.
Now, we spend a lot of timein lending and billing.
And the reason for that is becausethose are two places where you find

(16:49):
the problem that I call time to money.
Right?
There is a reason why havingfaster and 24 7 availability of
money movement is really critical.
Right?
So in lending Issuing the loan to thelendee, the recipient of funds, shouldn't
be gated to nine to five on Monday.
That's just not how theworld works anymore.

(17:10):
Um, and there's so many iterationsof lending, for example, that are in
B2B, where the magnitude of impact tomove funds quickly is very meaningful.
And on the accounts payable andreceivable side and billing,
we see the same thing, right?
There's an objective to betteralign payables and receivables
and not have to send out.

(17:31):
You know, with 3 to 7 days lead time,a payment that's no longer going to
sit in your account and earn interest.
You can actually maximize both theway you think about the interest rates
you're accumulating the dollars thatyou have in the bank, the time in
which you make payables and so much offinancial services looks different when
you don't have to ask the question howfast or how am I going to move money?

(17:54):
And you can just simply say it needs to beinstant and we'll take care of the rest.

Tedd Huff, Fintech Confidential: That really comes into the point of (17:59):
undefined
really looking at what the cashflowmanagement side of the house, like
how, how do I maximize the usage of it?
How do I get it to where I need to be?
You hit on all of those different things,but as, as I, I want to drill back in,
we've talked about the products, right?
Do we Verify in the bank accounts?
We're moving the money all, all as well.

(18:21):
Um, and you, you've also mentionedthat it's developer centric.

Indeed it is.
So

who are these developers that are looking at
these APIs to do this and, and where'sit getting injected into the ecosystem?

Well, the, the thing to think about is that there's
really three constituents, right?
There's the buyer, which is typicallysomebody in a product role who is thinking
about having a payment experience ora money movement experience embedded
in their products and solutions.
And so that's the person that typicallycomes to the table, finds Orum, and
is analyzing how to bring somethingnew into their product suite so that

(19:01):
it can be differentiated, so theycan lower costs, there's a number
of things they're solving for.
The person that buys the productalso has to align with the
person that's going to integrate.
And so yes, we are developer friendly.
However, we also offer no code options.
Because many, uh, financial servicescompanies who are not fintechs, right?
Um, where a lot of the concentration oflending and billing sits, are spitting out

(19:24):
a NACHA file, and that's all they have.
And they're probably not goingto invest in technical change.
So we can take that NACHA file in ourno code option, and actually break apart
all the components of the informationsupplied, and route it on faster payments.
So we're not only interoperablewith RTP and FedNow, we're also
configurable in a way that doesn'trequire engineering work, right?

(19:46):
But if there are engineers, we want thoseconstituents to be excited that they
can literally build an integration toOrum and set up a full multi bank, multi
rail payment stack in two weeks or less.
And then the third constituent is what Icall the user, which is somebody who has
to track, settle, reconcile, organize,run reports, think about the treasury

(20:09):
and payment operations components ofhaving payments embedded in a business.
And at the end of the day, that personbecomes infinitely more important as you
look ahead to what's on your road map,how you're going to do renewals, right?
So it's not just the buyer and the processup front, but it's really for us deeply
embedding with our customers, listeningto their feedback, and ensuring that

(20:31):
all three constituents have maximizedthe time and the effort they spend and
have gotten something really valuablethat they can ideally point back to
the business and say, We've cut costsbecause we have bank rate pricing.
We've identified a new way tomonetize with faster payments.
And Oh, by the way, we were able tomove engineers out from underneath
managing three or four different bankintegrations, um, to new projects

(20:55):
that generate growth for the business.
And we did all that without changing.
In fact, enhancing the way we move money.
And so for me, that's exactly thecombination we're looking for.

So.
All of this sounds fantastic, but we knowthat none of this stuff goes super smooth.

Well, you say that, but you haven't integrated
to Orum, so, you know, bring it on.

Well, I mean, talking about the, all the
different legacy rails and some of thenewer rails, even though they're newer,
they still have a lot of the same baggageas, as the legacy platforms and a lot of
the different ways that it's looked atand managed and, um, Um, especially when
you start thinking the bank risk side ofthe house, they still want to treat it
similarly to the, to the legacy pieces.

(21:37):
What would you say was the, the biggestgotcha that you had when you were going
through the process of putting all thesedifferent pieces together, something that
you didn't expect to be as complicatedor as difficult as it turned out to be.
And then we'll, we'll start there.

I mean, there's been many surprises.
I think all entrepreneurs would tellyou the way they think it's going to
go and the way it goes are different.
Specific to your question, though, Ithink that's what's been probably most
interesting and you're very right, right?
The way that you send an ACH andthe way a bank receives that is very
different than the way you send awire, which is very different than
the way you do an RTP, which is alsodifferent than how you do FedNow.

(22:19):
And so the fact that we've Wehave spent many years building the
logic to think about the smartest,best way to move the transaction.
And we've optimized for paymentrails that are very nascent, right?
There's very, very minimal utilizationstill of the newer systems, not

(22:41):
because they're not valuable, butbecause it is a sea change to move
11, 500 financial institutionsfrom one way of working to another.
So right now, um, the RTPnetwork's reporting about a
million transactions a day.
So about 30 million transactions a month.
So you can imagine that being firstmovers on a system that itself

(23:01):
hasn't matured has taught us a lot.
Like what happens if there's an outage?
Is there an outage at the RTPlevel or is it at the bank level?
How do you know if the account youwant to interact with is actually
eligible for an instant payment?
Well, that's why we built Verify.
So there's been a lot of learningsjust around incorporating the actual

(23:22):
specific mechanics And right now, Iwould say, yes, we are all seeing the
benefits of faster payments, but we'renot realizing yet is all the things that
the Fed built into FedNow and TCH builtinto RTP, which is the messaging layer.
And so, as we're going to, we'regoing to talk crystal ball later,
but as I look ahead, I thinkthat's a very important part.

(23:43):
It's fun and sexy to talk about faster.
It's really important to talk about sevendays a week with no holidays and 24 7.
But what becomes critical is thecombination of moving money with data.
And that's why I think these networksare, they are absolutely the future.
When I talk about kind of the seachange that's happening, I often think

(24:05):
about, well, you know, how long ago wasit that Uber started hit the market?
And if before Uber, I said to you like,Hey, Tedd, it's going to be completely
normal to have a stranger in a strangecar that you've never been in, pick
you up at your house, have your phonenumber and know where you live and
drive you somewhere, you would'vethought that was absolutely bananas.
And now it is the most common best way.

(24:25):
I mean, I don't know what'shappening in the rental car market,
but it can't be pretty, right?
Because Uber's reallyjust made it so simple.
And I think that's what's happening,but that was 10, 15 years ago.
Right?
So you've got to kind of thinkabout as we're changing things,
the benefits are very obvious.
Um, and we're going tocontinue to push boundaries.
It's why we spend so much timepartnering, um, with TCH and with the fed.

(24:49):
And We're going to keep making suredistribution and access is easy.
Today you have to go to a bank,that bank has to have APIs.
If you're lucky, there's a select few.
Jamie Dimon funds a very richtechnology budget because he can
not that many banks have that.
And so we want to be the partner thatallows access in a really simple way so

(25:09):
that businesses who are building somethingcan take advantage of the ways in which
you can optimize money movement and theydon't have to go spend 2 million dollars
in 2 years Figuring out how it works.
That's my job.

Well, and you talk about the optimization, you
know, one of the discussions that, thatI've had a couple of times as we look
at the faster payments and we look atthe, the push to card functionalities
and, you know, when do we fall back onACH and all these different decision,
decision points in here to try andfigure out what's the best way.

(25:43):
What has Orum done to help thosefolks that are sitting on the
other side trying to figure out,do I, how do I get it there now?
How do I get it there later today?
Like, how, how are you helping themmake the decisions of, do they have to
figure out what they're going to use?
They actually don't.

Stephany Kirkpatrick, Orum: That's the beauty of it. (26:03):
undefined
So think about Amazon, right?
Same day delivery.
Your packages now literallycome Saturday and Sunday.
And sometimes they comebetween like 5 and 7 a.
m.
Like you have so many ways inwhich you can get a package.
And what Amazon did is they tookFedEx, UPS, Postal Service, Oh, by
the way, they put their blue van,little Trojan horse out there, and
then they hired a bunch of drivers to,like, close the loop on final mile.

(26:26):
And as a consumer, all you care aboutis whether or not the package is going
to arrive on time and how certain,like, how fast and how certain.
That's how we should bethinking about money movement.
It's my job, as we build Orum, to thinkabout what are the rules that live within
each of the networks, and what can youdefinitely do and definitely not do.
When can you reverse a transaction?
What if you send a payrollfile and it's got an error?

(26:47):
Well, ECH lets you, like, fix that.
But RTP doesn't.
So you're not just optimizing for speed.
You're thinking about size of transaction.
Who's sending?
Who's receiving?
What time of day is it?
What's the, like, purpose of the transfer?
Um, have we had confirmation from thepayee that they know the money's coming?
I mean, there's many, many thingsthat you're optimizing for.

(27:09):
And via our API or our no code option.
You, it is as simple as sayingASAP if speed is important to
you and we will do the rest.
So orchestration is a big part of ourbusiness because nobody wants to have
to build the decisions that go intoincreasing complexity of managing
risk, speed, cost, reversibility.

(27:31):
And the rule book for NACHA is, I don'tknow how many pages it sits on my desk.
It's, you know, five inches thick.
That's the kind of stuff you have.
It used to be bigger.
It used to be bigger, right?
They've like worked on it.
So unless you have a chatbot withAI like scanning that and telling
you the answer to everything, whichcertainly is not the case, you have
to really fundamentally know how tooperate every network differently.

(27:54):
And I just think it's too high of abarrier of entry and too high cost for
every single financial services companyto have to try to figure that out.
And that's exactly whywe've done what we've done.
And the way we think about it right now.

I'm curious to get your perspective, you know,
I've sat down and worked with a numberof treasury management professionals and
a lot of times it's less about the speedand the ease and more about the cost and
as you called it certainty of delivery.
How are you, how are youdelivering the understanding of

(28:26):
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Okay.
You know, it's such an interestingquestion because in treasury management,
you're often working with corporate funds.
So you're sometimes asking and answeringdifferent questions than you might be
within the rest of the business where youmight be handling your customers funds.
So I do think that sometimes there'sa differentiation between those two.
Um, I think cost ispretty transparent, right?

(29:12):
Um, we offer bank rate pricing, whichmeans the way that we determine pricing is
to coordinate with our financial partnersand the Fed in particular and TCH.
And so what we're not trying todo is obscure and hide costs.
What we are trying to do is make sure thatthere's value and people can understand if
you want it faster, it takes a little bitmore time and money to make that happen.

(29:37):
And so as we've made that investmentin the faster payment system.
You know, it's a couple cents more thanan ACH, but here's what's great about it.
It travels with data.
It's certain.
It works at night and on the holidays.
So people are willing topay for that certainty.
Um, And in other cases, as youmentioned, sometimes you want to
slow down one leg of the transaction.

(29:59):
Like you want to let it settle,hang out in your account for
a day or two, maybe a week.
And that's the beauty of our system is youcan break up your debits and credits and
you can think about them very differently.
So we're thinking about optimizingexactly what treasury managers,
payment operations, leaders, um, andbusiness folks need to think about.
So it's not just.

(30:20):
Move it faster, right?
It's really a very complex equationof optimization and orchestration

Tedd Huff, Fintech Confidential: So recently you've made a couple (30:27):
undefined
of announcements, um, for somepartnerships, help, help us understand
what drives those types of partnerships.
One, one, I believe is with a bank.
Um, and, and like, what, what, how,how do you choose the partnerships?
I mean, at, at, at a leadershiplevel, how do you, how do you all.

(30:47):
Come together and go, yeah,that's the right, that's the
right partnership for us.

Well, we're very careful and selective
about who we partner with.
So I'll start with that.
Having grown up in regulated financialservices my whole career, I know, and
I knew when I started Orum that weneeded to make very careful choices
because we wouldn't get a second chance.
And when you're establishing abrand and you're establishing
trust with your customers, it'seasy to have a great website.

(31:13):
It's easy to have great products.
And the minute something goes wrong,it's very easy to have a customer say,
I don't want to work with you anymore.
And so our partners are very much animportant part of thinking about our SLAs,
how fast, how long, how's our uptime.
Um, and they're also really criticalin terms of how they're regulated,
where they spend time in the market.
You are the company you keep, right?

(31:34):
So we want a select group of partnersthat are, um, premium in every
way, because it is important to us.
That we don't make any decisionsthat could risk the way somebody's
trust gets built with us.
Because moving money is themost high value, high risk
endeavor you could take on.

(31:55):
Because we're talking about payroll.
We're talking about wages.
We're talking about insurance dollars.
We're talking about healthcareproviders getting paid.
Right?
And I just take that very seriously.
And that's colored everything we dofrom a partnership's perspective.

Tedd Huff, Fintech Confidential: I'm not going to go all the (32:09):
undefined
way into our crystal ball.
We'll end with that piece of it.
But I do want to understand yourperspective on how the future of
payments, the future of fintech is gettingimpacted by the regulatory environment.
As you mentioned, you came from a highlyregulated environment to begin with.

(32:32):
How are you seeing the future?
The announcements, uh, recently wejust had the announcement of the,
of 1033, it finally got released.
How are you seeing things like thatimpacting the, the way in which
people approach these products?

Well, regulation is sometimes on your side
and sometimes a little bit more of aheadwind, and it sort of depends on the
political environment, what regulator,what part of the landscape you're in.
What I think is particularly interestingright now is that many different types
of regulators, um, not exclusively theCFPB who put out 1033, are endeavoring

(33:12):
to figure out how to increase, um,certainty and manage risk between novel
innovative concepts being built byfintechs and the banking system that
supports their ability to do a lot ofthat, whether it's hold deposits or
transfer money and issue credit cards.
So, I think we're still in the earlyinnings of what will be probably a fairly

(33:35):
big amount of regulatory sea change.
But those regulators don't alwayshave to coordinate efforts, and
they certainly probably won't.
With 1033 specifically, I think it'sa double click into, um, something
that's existed for a while unofficially,which is, hey, at this bank, where
I've put my trust and my dollarsand probably my direct deposit for
my payroll, I have data locked up.

(33:57):
And for a variety of reasons, I might wantto give that information to somebody else.
Maybe it's for buying a car and gettinga loan, and there's cash flow based
underwriting information that wouldprove that I pay my bills on time
and be additive to my credit score.
So I think it's an unlock that is goingto, in this case, be a propellant to

(34:18):
have more consumer rights, and that'swhat the CFPB is always thinking
about, with regard to access to data.
I think we're probably going to belooking at things evolving, like Reg E,
which is specifically for ACH and ACHdebit transactions, potentially needing
to evolve because it's highly abused,and it leads to a substantial amount of

(34:40):
fraud and cost in the payment system.
So I'm interested to see where allof this goes, and I'm by no means a
regulatory affairs expert, but we doensure that we spend a lot of time
with our counsel at Paul Hastings.
Chris Daniel and team keeping current,um, and making sure that we're in
lockstep with our financial partners,their regulators, which spans everything

(35:01):
from the OCC to the FDIC and beyond.
And just really putting in the work towork with the system and not against it.

Yeah.
I was, I was really wanting to understand,like, how are you seeing it in the
beneficial, not, not the detrimentalside, but the beneficial, how are
you, how are you seeing that moving?
Orum and the technology forward.
Is it opening up new opportunities?
Is it in a direction that ishelping you see things maybe in
a slightly different way that youthought may not have been possible?

(35:31):

Stephany Kirkpatrick, Orum: You know, I'm always eager to (35:34):
undefined
see how we react to final regs.
And so, you know, this was a particularlyfast moving set of regulations.
There are others that are being workedon now that won't maybe move as quickly.
I think Rohit had a timeline andan objective and a really clear
remit to like get this done.
And yeah, I think it's probablygoing to open up access.
So I see it as a, you know,generally a positive thing.

(35:56):
I'm interested to see, you know,as the crypto landscape evolves and
stable coins, I'm sure you're notreading my notes because that's where

Tedd Huff, Fintech Confidential: I'm going next. (36:02):
undefined

I'm certainly not, but we're sharing a brain, Tedd.
I love it.
You know, there's so much ofvalue to be had in stable coins.
And so I'm very interested to seehow, you know, let's say like the FDIC
and, uh, SEC started to rethink someof their initial concerns with crypto
and how we can take advantage of theblockchain capability and the sort of.

(36:25):
Stable coin assets.
I wouldn't be surprised if there'sa future state in which a stable
coins, a part of the Orum back end.
I don't know when that mightbe, but it's not crazy, right?
Particularly for things like cross border.
So it's just a very interesting time.
And in every moment when it feels chaotic,because regulators are feeling a certain
way, it just means there's opportunity.

So we'll go ahead and make that shift over
to, you know, the discussion of, youknow, how are, When you're looking at
all these different technologies, Imean, we've had the discussions, um,
throughout the industry, uh, off andon and up and down and everything kind
of ebbs and flows as it normally does.
But when we look at any sortof cryptocurrency, any sort of

(37:07):
blockchain technologies, you justmentioned that you see stable coin
as being a potential item that getsadded or gets used more frequently.
But what do you see theoverarching impact of these?
Blockchain technologies to theindustry and and how how you all are
looking at approaching the market

Well, the blockchain piece in particular is super
interesting I think especially if youare looking at folks like what Figure
is building from a HELOC perspective Soif you're getting a home equity line of
credit the way they're thinking aboutthe sort of provenance of information
within the loan itself That is a big gamechanger from an infrastructure perspective
to think about where lending might goUm Stable coins are interesting because,

(37:52):
well, I can see a future in which wefactor them in and probably we're not
done innovating on ways to move money.
I don't think FedNow and RTPwere like the last frontier.
Um, I think what is trueis that inside the U.
S., currently, the need for stable coinsas a form of money movement is lesser.
Because we're lucky to have the U.
S.
dollar be stable and reliable.

(38:14):
And where you see stable coinsbeing really valuable is speed
of money movement cross border.
And or currency stabilization, um, andproviding the ability to, for people
to hold a USD who live outside the US so that's not on our horizon today
to go cross border, because I can onlysee so far into the future and with
80 trillion dollars needing to go fromACH to fully optimize, I got years

(38:37):
and years of work ahead of me, but,um, we believe that as new forms of
money movement become relevant to ouruse cases, we'll just build them in.
And like we did last yearwith FedNow, we added it.
None of our customers had to make anychanges to take advantage of it, and
we just automatically incorporatedinto the waterfall of logic.
And that's what we'll continueto do as there are more types

(38:58):
of different payment mechanisms.
And I sure hope we're not done innovating.
We're just at the very beginning, I think.

I do want to jump into really understanding
some of the leadership lessonsthat you've learned during this.
You'd mentioned, you know,getting the coach and, and really
kind of working through that.
I'm a great number two, um, piece of it.
What are, what would you say are likethe top three things that you've, you've

(39:29):
pulled out of it from your transitionthrough each one of these roles?
And heck, even over the lastfive years, Oh, I've learned

so much.
So let's start with having a coach, right?
Um, I think sometimes, Particularlystartup founders find it unusual.
Like, what would you do with a coach?
And like, how does it work?
And if you look at the best athletes,Tiger Woods, name whoever you want, right?
Um, they all train, they all work tobe better at the thing they're good at.

(39:57):
And as a leader, you're never doneworking on the things that will make
you a great leader because the businessyou're running is going to change
if not every six months, every nineor 12 or 18, because you're growing.
And so I think having a coach that isversed in leadership and specifically
in many cases, the entrepreneurialjourney is a massive unlock.

(40:19):
I've been working with my coach,Steve, for, um, the better part of
three and a half, almost four years.
So not since day one.
And I wish I had known him on day one.
I think I would have made alot of decisions differently.
Um, so coaching is really important to meand I recommend it to all entrepreneurs
because that person is fully independent.
They don't have a financial outcome basedon equity, and they're not married to

(40:42):
you, and they're not your mom, and they'renot on your team, and they can really be
objective and be looking out just for you.
And I've learned a lot about boardmanagement, about how I handle my imposter
syndrome, about just continuing to putin the work, and some of the best things
that come out of that is that I'm a betterlistener, and I'm more patient, And I ask

(41:04):
questions without questioning the person.
And so many things that I willcontinue to work on, but I'm
really excited, have become naturalas I've just put in the work.
Um, number two, I have a 911 list.
Like I by no means know all the answers.
I mean, when I took a left turn and wentto build bikes that go nowhere, I did
not know anything about the business.
So I had to ask a lot ofpeople for a lot of help.

(41:27):
And your networks are a reallyvaluable asset, and people love when
you call on them for their expertise.
So build a 911 list of people that,like, will have seen around the corner.
They know what's next.
They have the domain knowledge.
They've been in your shoes, but they'vedone it twice before and you haven't.
And I just find that is oneof the most powerful things.
One day I was trying to study a problemabout, like, how do ATM machines,

(41:52):
when you put your debit card in,know that it's your bank account?
And so I was like, Ineed to find the answer.
And of course I wouldn't know,so you can only Google so much.
So I called on my 911 list andsomebody said, Hey, meet this person.
They run the biggest ATM network in thecountry and they'll answer your question.
And that's so satisfying because itspeeds up my ability to find the answer.
And for that person that I'masking, they're delighted to

(42:13):
tell you and help you out, right?
Like give and you will get back.
Um, and then I think the thirdleadership component that I talk a
lot about is a team is not a family.
Orum is not my family.
I love Orum.
I love working with the team.
But teams are very different.
Family you would do anything for.
You would make room for anyone.

(42:34):
You would bend over backwards.
You just behave very differentlywhen you think you're a family.
And a family makes itsometimes too personal.
This is business.
I run a company.
It is a for profit entity.
We need to make money.
I need to be smart about the bottom line.
And decisions we have to makesometimes are really hard.
Sometimes it's notworking with a teammate.

(42:54):
That doesn't make them a bad person.
It just means it's not a fit right now.
And the more as an employee you can seeyourself as on the team, you can remember
you have to earn your spot on that team.
You have to play your spot well.
You got to stay in your spot.
And if something changes and youdon't like it, it's not personal.
So having that mindset that we'reconnected and a team is a very powerful

(43:15):
force of nature is so important to me.
But remembering everyday, it's not a family.
And when I have to make harddecisions or managers and people
leaders have to make hard decisions.
We don't want it to be aboutthat familial component.
Um, and I know that's a little bitcontroversial and a little bit different
than how some people think about it.
Um, but that's worked really well for me.

Tedd Huff, Fintech Confidential: How do you manage that, especially (43:36):
undefined
with having a full remote team?
The most common cause of bad customerexperience isn't that high tech.
It's embarrassingly simple.
Yep, it's answering questions.
In e commerce, it's really easy toget bogged down with common questions.

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(44:19):
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Compassion.
Empathy.
Everybody's human.
Somebody's going through a hardtime, they're having a bad day.
Somebody may have had a deathin the family or be sick.
You don't know everythingabout somebody at work just
because they walk in the door.
And you won't know everything about them,although you might know different things
because you work in a remote setting.
I tend to know more about people'shome lives than I probably would have.

(44:53):
We certainly see if somebody has likepainted the wall or moved locations.
You see people's kids.
And having the compassionand empathy is critical.
I think it's very important tocheck in, how are you doing?
. That's a different question thanlike, you might normally get asked
if you just walked in the door.
So we do really think about employeeexperience, employee engagement.

(45:15):
I think engagement's a great proxy.
If you are engaged, thatmeans that you understand what
you're supposed to be doing.
You're giving the autonomy to do it well.
And you're getting feedback that it'sgoing the way you thought it should.
And if you're not getting those signalsfrom your people leader, it is on
you as an employee to go find out.
Hey, are we aligned?
Here's what I'm thinking about it.
Does that match?

(45:36):
So, you know, there's no shortageof challenges in remote, but
there are some real benefits.
And we've made this a feature, not a bug.
Um, and I think just ultimately havingcompassion and, and being professional
in every setting is really critical.

Tedd Huff, Fintech Confidential: how do you take that into the (45:49):
undefined
decision making process on what todo, when to do it, how to do who
needs to do it, help us understandfrom your leadership perspective.
how do you lead the people todo the right things at the right
time with the right resources?

Stephany Kirkpatrick, Orum: Well, two answers. (46:09):
undefined
One is I hired a VP ofpeople when we were 20.
So a lot of people do that whenyou're like 80 or a hundred or 200.
Um, she was head of people at the time.
She's since been promoted, and thatis my way of investing in making sure
that we make the right decisions tohave the people at Orum be the right
people at the right time for right now.

(46:31):
And that's a nuanced thing, because as thebusiness changes, what we need changes.
So I started with that, and then I comeback to just thinking about, hey, if
we're gonna move in a new direction,launch a new product, build something
different, hire a team, you have tokind of go back to first principles,
which is to understand, do we haveanybody already here that fits the bill?

(46:53):
Do we need to hire from outside?
Can we build a systemthat promotes from within?
And I try to really take advantage ofthe talent base we've already developed,
with subject matter expertise and domainknowledge, and use that to our advantage.
So you'll find that people at Orumsometimes move teams, or they get promoted
in a different area, and that's us takingadvantage of really exceptional talent,

(47:17):
but also realizing, like, when we don'tknow something, and we do need to hire
from outside, we know how to go find that.
Um, and so it's, you know, it's alwaysa balance, but having somebody who
really focuses on people strategyunlocks me to do what I'm good at,
which is to think about having greatfinancial partners, great commercial
partners, great investors, and itunlocks her to ensure that the team is

(47:39):
always as best it can be, optimized todo the right work at the right time.
So that means thinking about orgdesign, it means thinking about
employee growth, it means thinkingabout great people leaders.
Um, and so there's a lotfor me that goes into it.

Tedd Huff, Fintech Confidential: Well, I do want to dive in. (47:53):
undefined
Um, and of course I had tobring the crystal ball with me.
What I want you to do is I want you tolook into this fun crystal ball here
and, and, and tell us what is it yousee in the next five to 10 years in
FinTech and how does it look different?

Oh man, that is a really wild question.
So I think in five to 10 years time,as I said, kind of earlier in the show,
you'll What are the biggest changes isthat when we move money, which is an
increasingly important part of fintech?
We will have data Embeddedin a way that today.
We don't we will be able to sendan accounts payable Or receivable,

(48:34):
you know invoice inside of thepayment mechanism So the kinds of
software that need to get built buttoday our big businesses like bill.
com Might look fundamentally different.
They might not exist at all becausethe model will be changing And I think
the way you manufacture and distributefinancial services products on new
infrastructure is going to changein ways we almost can't imagine.

(48:59):
But if you just go back to if weonly had data while we were doing
a payment, what would we build?
That is the unlock of taking fasterpayments from today, just being about
speed or in some cases, you know, timeand day of the week and really making a
transformational part of fintech I wishI could see further in the specifics, but

(49:20):
I know that data with money movement isgoing to be the game changer for every
FinTech who might not need to do certainthings the way they're doing them today.
And certainly I think our kids, somaybe not 10 years from now, but
you know, in the future, they'regoing to look at us and be like,
sorry, you use your account number.
What is that?
They're going to pay with their email.

(49:41):
They're going to paywith their phone number.
Okay.
And so the Zelle directory model, whilestill also early, is a great signal
on the ease by which we're going tostart to think about transacting,
taking down barriers of entry,and ultimately also preventing bad
actors from getting into the system.
You know, it always made me laugh, like,the most critical thing about your bank

(50:01):
account, which is the account number,is printed on your check, which is
literally a physical thing you could lose.
Losing my debit card is way lower risk.
I can just immediately say I lost it.
Losing a blank check much harder.
So I just think we're going to gothrough so many kinds of changes
all tied back to data that canincrease payment speed and payment
certainty and help us build better.

Tedd Huff, Fintech Confidential: If you were to give another fintech (50:26):
undefined
founder one piece of advice thatthey could, that's the only piece of
advice they could take with them goingforward, what would it be and why?

I say this advice a lot, and I think it's
way easier to say than it is to do.
Um, be very, veryfocused in the beginning.
Because fintech has more barriers toentry from a regulatory perspective,
and because you have to meet certaincriteria to be in financial services,
um, don't spread yourself thin.

(51:01):
Hone your first product.
If you're focused on selling to lenders,. Sell to a hundred lenders before you
sell to somebody that's not a lender andjust stay steadfast in working with your
board In the fact that not all revenueis a good idea Good revenue will help you
unlock product market fit and the way thatyou get to scale Like a Chime or a Cash

(51:23):
App is to be Literally laser focused inyour core customer and your core product
for as absolutely long as you can Whichmeans frequently saying no You To the
temptation to build more things faster.
And I think that's where, in fact,in FinTech in particular, you can
get over your skis very quicklyand not realize that you have too
thin of a layer of compliance ornot enough, you know, support for

(51:46):
something in the fraud ecosystem.
And so those are the things that I, Ireally come back to over and over again,
because I think it's, what's going tomake for the ability for you to quickly
figure out, do I have product market fit?
And if I do, then howdo I start to scale it?

So that leads me to a different question.
It's like, how, how do youknow when you have a company,
not a product or a feature,

such a timely question, because so much of
AI right now feels like features andeven, you know, over the last five
or 10 years, a lot of, you know,tech things have become features, not
companies go back to venture scale.
Can you build a business with this?
That's going to get you to 200 to300 million dollars of revenue,

(52:33):
at which point you could consideran IPO or an alternative exit.
And when you're standing there proud ofyourself getting to your first one or two
million in run rate revenue, do the math.
What do I have to believe onnumber of customers, on cost of
acquisition, on, you know, whichincumbent might get there first?
Um, and be really mindful of howeasy it might be to replicate

(52:56):
the thing that you're working on.
Because if that's true, it's likelya feature, not a, not a business.

We, we had, I've had this discussion.
It was interesting.
I was at another conference and,and we just started to see as, as I
was sitting down with a handful offounders of their companies and most
of them are, are, are very deep.
Um, like an Orum, you know, you guyshave a lot of function, a lot of

(53:23):
feature, a lot of value gets provided.
And that was the conversation that we werehaving was realistically five or six of
these people that were presenting theircompany probably should just get together
and,
and build a singular end to end productthat can actually service versus

(53:48):
just being that one little piece.
And And then the reason why Ibring that up is you talked about
getting super, super focused.
And I think there are casesthat you can get so focused that

right.
The market's too small.

Tedd Huff, Fintech Confidential: The market is just too small. (54:02):
undefined
No matter no matter how much you think.
Well, this everybody could use this.
Well, yes, everybody coulduse this in this thing.
In that thing.
Yeah.
And this company in this product in thisfeature on I think that's that's big.
The biggest piece that, That I'vebeen seeing over, over the last,

(54:22):
I would say probably over the lasttwo years it's been really bad.

I think you see a lot of that because
of how capital was deployed.
And so it's kind of very obvious rightnow, which means there's probably
going to be some great consolidation.
I'd also kind of add the finer point,which is if you can land with a wedge
and in a year's time expand to anotherfeature that's going to drive more
revenue and lock in that customer.

(54:45):
The way we think about that is, bring.
all of your payment business to usand we'll continue to grow what we
offer to you so that if you werealready working on, you know, let's
say, um, ACH somewhere else and youwanted to start on RTP with us, you'd
be incented to move everything over.
It's a better system.

(55:06):
So landing and expanding, increasingcontract value, adding something
like Verify, which we did almost ahundred percent of our customers.
Looked to us and said,Oh, you've added a thing.
I wasn't able to solve on my own.
I want to buy that.
So it leverages you to chargemore, own more share of wallet,
um, increase net revenue retention.
So those are the things that if youstart narrow and focused, you should hear

(55:29):
good signal on the necessity for yourbuyer to continue to work with you and
buy more of the thing you're selling.
And so for me, it often just comesdown to monetization and consumption.
And are you thinking aboutit from a growth perspective
in the right way over time?

Tedd Huff, Fintech Confidential: Stephany, I appreciate you sitting down (55:44):
undefined
today, especially ending on that note.
Uh, this has been very, very helpfulto understand where Orum's going,
how it fits the different pieces andparts, especially the way that you've
approached building out the organization.
Uh, it's been very, very helpful.
And I really appreciate your time today.

Stephany Kirkpatrick, Orum: I loved being here. (56:04):
undefined
Thanks so much.

Tedd Huff, Fintech Confidential: Thanks Steph. (56:06):
undefined
And if you haven't already, goahead, like, share, subscribe,
and go to fintechconfidential.
com and sign up to be notifiedwhen this and all the other
favorite episodes get released.
As we wrap up today's episode,I've got one last thing for you.
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Lily (57:06):
This has been a production of DD3 Media, with all rights reserved.
This is provided forinformational purposes only.
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