S.2 Ep.16- Back in The Studio: Catch up with us on Fire Investigation Stories, AI Tools, and Generational Games.

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Welcome back! In this episode our hosts return to recording live episodes together! Chasity kicks things off with exciting news about launching her own fire investigation company and shares stories from her incredibly busy first week, including four fires and some impressive networking at joint examinations. She takes us through fascinating cases, from a kitchen fire caused by cloth items accidentally left in a broiler to a massive carport fire involving 20 vehicles that initially had witnesses convinced arson was involved - until solid forensic work proved otherwise.

Scott shares his own intriguing cases, including a potential spontaneous heating incident from improperly disposed refinishing materials, and discusses the importance of witness interviews after sharing a gripping story about an apartment fire with suspicious Ring camera footage. The hosts dive into the challenges of single-resource investigation work and emphasize the critical balance between forensic evidence and witness statements in determining fire origin.

The episode features their signature movie quote game (with mixed results on Chasity's movie knowledge!), valuable insights about approaching experts at conferences, and Scott's mind-blowing demonstration of ChatGPT's new Agent Mode for research tasks. They also highlight upcoming training opportunities across multiple states and remind listeners about their upcoming appearance at the Illinois chapter meeting where they'll be teaching classes and recording a live podcast segment.

Throughout the episode, the hosts maintain their trademark blend of technical expertise, practical advice, and genuine enthusiasm for fire investigation, making complex forensic concepts accessible while sharing real-world experiences that showcase both the science and art of their profession. Whether you're a seasoned investigator or just curious about fire investigation, this episode delivers valuable insights wrapped in engaging storytelling.

Key Topics Covered:

• Starting a fire investigation business
• Kitchen fire safety and broiler storage mistakes
• Large-scale carport fire investigation techniques
• Spontaneous heating from refinishing materials
• Witness interview strategies and timing
• Conference networking and expert consultation
• AI tools for research and documentation
• Upcoming training opportunities nationwide
• Fire pattern analysis and undetermined classifications

Upcoming Training Events:

• North Dakota Annual Training Conference (Sept 24-26)
• Nebraska Conference in Norfolk (Sept 16)
• California CCAI Conference in San Luis Obispo (Oct 6-9)
• Arkansas Fire Prevention Conference (Oct 14-16)
• Alabama Conference in Orange Beach (Oct 27-29)
• Illinois Chapter Meeting in Peoria (Sept 15-17) - featuring the hosts!

Note: The hosts will be teaching AI classes and conducting a live podcast recording at the Illinois conference - don't miss the chance to meet them in person!

Thank you for listening!

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Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
Welcome to Fire Investigation In Focus podcast,
your source for origin and causeinsights.
Join

SPEAKER_03 (00:14):
Scott Coleman

SPEAKER_01 (00:15):
and Chassidy Owens as we discuss the field of fire
investigation and ignite yourcuriosity.
Yeah, literally, it's insane.
It's insane in the membrane.
Okay, we're starting.

SPEAKER_03 (00:32):
Are we starting?

SPEAKER_01 (00:33):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (00:34):
Hey, this is good.

SPEAKER_01 (00:36):
Yeehaw.

SPEAKER_03 (00:38):
It has been a minute since it's just you and me.

SPEAKER_01 (00:41):
Yeah, like that we're recording an entire
episode all the way through liveaction, not at ITC.

SPEAKER_03 (00:48):
Not that we didn't enjoy that.

SPEAKER_01 (00:49):
We did, but we missed it.
But I missed

SPEAKER_03 (00:51):
this.
So it was funny, we'd gettogether.
Okay, let's do an intro.
And we're like, oh, we're goingtoo long.
We have...
the ITC to get in here.
So we had to cut that down.
Anyway.

SPEAKER_01 (01:02):
Yeah, our intros, we'd start getting into like 20
minutes and be like, crap, wegot to reel this in.

SPEAKER_03 (01:09):
So let's go over our last two weeks since our last
time.

SPEAKER_01 (01:12):
Yeah, let's figure it out.

SPEAKER_03 (01:13):
I know.
Let's start with you.
You had really big news.

SPEAKER_01 (01:16):
Yeah, I gave the really big news two weeks ago
and now it's happened and it'sgoing great.

SPEAKER_03 (01:23):
My week was booked.
Well, you got to tell thelisteners who may not listen to
every episode what's goinggreat.

SPEAKER_01 (01:28):
Oh, I have started my own fire investigation
company with a business partner.
I feel like it's so obvious, butoh well.

SPEAKER_03 (01:38):
Anyway.
Well, we don't want to use thisplatform to promote anything for
us.
Right.
It's more for what's good forthe community.
That's why we're being weird

SPEAKER_01 (01:47):
about it.
Right.
But this is my experience asmyself.
But we're not.
We just don't.
For those of you that know us,know us.
Yeah.
And you know what we're talkingabout.
That's why we're not like beingsuper depth because we don't
want to be advertising.
But anyway, this whole firstweek, the week of the fourth, I
had four fires.

SPEAKER_03 (02:07):
Yeah, you were killing

SPEAKER_01 (02:08):
it.
Yeehaw.

SPEAKER_03 (02:09):
I'm like, man, she is

SPEAKER_01 (02:10):
killing it.
I had four fires.
I was approached by someone at ajoint exam.
Two people, actually.
I...
I'm just wheeling and dealingand trying to do what I can.

SPEAKER_03 (02:20):
Can I just say something?

SPEAKER_01 (02:21):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (02:23):
I think they know the quality of work and the
passion you have for this job.
Yeah.
So I think that shows through.
And I think that's why you'rekind of hitting the ground
running.
Now, it's only been like a weekand a

SPEAKER_01 (02:35):
half.
Yeah, we can't jinx it.
So we don't know what happensnext week.
For sure.
Well, I leave for Kentucky onThursday.
Thursday night.
Okay.
To go to...
visit friends and family.
I do it twice a year.
It happened to fall on one of mybest friend's daughter's
birthday.
She's turning four.

SPEAKER_03 (02:56):
You can say your best friend's

SPEAKER_01 (02:57):
daughter's name.
I'm so excited.
The daughter's name?
Her name's Adeline.

SPEAKER_03 (03:02):
Adeline!

SPEAKER_01 (03:04):
They don't listen so they won't even know that this
happened.
Remove her name right now.
And then the following weekendI'm going to Montana for my old
roommate's baby shower.

SPEAKER_03 (03:18):
Oh, Bree.
Not only was it a busy week, youhave busy weeks coming up.

SPEAKER_01 (03:25):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (03:26):
That's awesome.

SPEAKER_01 (03:27):
With travel and hopefully with fires.

SPEAKER_03 (03:30):
Any cool fires that you covered?

SPEAKER_01 (03:33):
In this week, two of them were joint exams that I
have been on for a little bit.
So not super interesting yet,but...
I'm at this joint exam with acouple people that we know.
And there's a couple differentexperts.
And my favorite thing aboutjoint exams, when they get

(03:53):
specific, is that you have thosespecialized people who come in.
And it's like you're getting aconference for free.

SPEAKER_03 (04:02):
And the expert you're talking about, because we
don't have permission to mentionhis or her name.

SPEAKER_01 (04:06):
Yeah, which we have mentioned him before, but
because it's

SPEAKER_03 (04:09):
in work.
But he specializes in commercialkitchens.
Yeah.
So I can only imagine.

SPEAKER_01 (04:15):
Yeah, but it wasn't just him.
There was another guy there whoanother fire investigation
company had hired to be there,and he specialized in that
realm.

SPEAKER_03 (04:27):
Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_01 (04:28):
Holy cannoli.

SPEAKER_03 (04:29):
You're getting the science and the legal all at
once.

SPEAKER_01 (04:32):
And he knew a lot about the science, too, but I'd
never heard of him before.
And so I walked right up to him,shook his hand.
I was like, Hey, I'm ChastityOwens.
I love this part.
So anything that you want totalk out loud, please do.
And hearing perspectives fromboth sides, because they, the
person we know, and then thisother person weren't

(04:52):
representing the same thing.
And that's always good.
It was the, it was, I was like,so I was there for my client,
obviously.
And then So we had a position towhere we were almost like an
observative position becausewe're not really involved in the
subrogation portion of this.

(05:13):
So they just wanted me to bethere in case something came up.
To represent their

SPEAKER_03 (05:17):
interest.

SPEAKER_01 (05:18):
I just got to absorb it all.
Oh, man.
I was just...
soaking it in it was so much fun

SPEAKER_03 (05:23):
it's so cool and i'm glad you shared that story and
you didn't share it with meprior to this because usually we
talk a lot but i know that wehave this coming up now so we
didn't

SPEAKER_01 (05:31):
share stories we have to try to have something to
talk about

SPEAKER_03 (05:34):
because i have a good little fire too we went on
the other day but on this one wetake these classes you
understand the generalities of acommercial kitchen and then you
get down into some specifics

SPEAKER_02 (05:45):
and

SPEAKER_03 (05:46):
But then when it's to a certain case and now you
get to even more specificity,like this is exactly what
happened.
You're like, oh my gosh, likeI'm so jealous right now.

SPEAKER_01 (05:54):
Yeah.
I just love that.
Fun.
Um, little safety tip.

SPEAKER_03 (05:58):
Yep.

SPEAKER_01 (05:59):
Don't leave cloth items in your broiler.

SPEAKER_03 (06:03):
Oh, tell us

SPEAKER_01 (06:03):
about

SPEAKER_03 (06:05):
that one.
That's a great

SPEAKER_01 (06:06):
one.
Yeah.
Poor, poor person.
Um, so she was younger, but I'mnot going to go too deep into it
cause it's not fully closed yet,but kitchen fire is, looked a
little weird at first, wastrying to cook chicken in the
oven.
The chicken wasn't cooking.
She couldn't figure out why.
And then all of a sudden,there's a ton of smoke.

(06:26):
She starts to see fire and exitsthe apartment.
And turns out she hadaccidentally, she had either
accidentally turned on thebroiler or the fact that she
just had the cloth down there.
She had an apron and an ovenmitt stored in the broiler.
And that's where all of youroxidation is.
That's where the melting was.

(06:46):
And it spread from there out.
And there was like a two-inchgap on one side of the oven.

SPEAKER_03 (06:55):
Between the cabinet and the oven?

SPEAKER_01 (06:56):
On the outside, yeah.
And that area was just hammered.

SPEAKER_03 (07:00):
Really?

SPEAKER_01 (07:01):
But for a second, when I first arrived, it looked
like it might be electrical.

SPEAKER_03 (07:05):
So that's pretty common on the public side.
Will go on fires...
and I'm saying in air quotes,you can't see me, cooking fires,
but a lot of times people willuse the broiler as a storage and
they'll put like Tupperware andstuff and then they'll
accidentally turn it on or notunderstand.
A lot of people will think it'slike for storage.

SPEAKER_01 (07:26):
Or like the pots and pans with the handles.
Pots and pans

SPEAKER_03 (07:28):
with the handles.
And then other people will keeplike Pyrex, I don't even know if
you know what that is, like aglassware in the actual oven.

SPEAKER_02 (07:37):
And

SPEAKER_03 (07:38):
then they'll be like, oh, well that created a
lot of room.
I'll keep a pan and pot in therewith those plastic handles.
And then they'll forget they'rein there and they'll

SPEAKER_02 (07:45):
preheat.

SPEAKER_03 (07:46):
And then we get these fires.
And so it's really not cooking.
It's just, I guess you wouldtitle it improper storage in a
heating appliance or cooking.
But yeah, so they're notuncommon, but it's, I remember
getting some of those on theprivate side, but it's not
uncommon to get them here on thepublic side

SPEAKER_01 (08:02):
either.
It was crazy too, because theperson that I was talking to was
like, It just doesn't make anysense that they would have an
oven fire because the chicken'snot burned.
And I was like, huh?
Because before I got there, Iwas like, that's so weird.
What do you mean?
So I was expecting to be thereand be like, there's fire in the
oven, but the chicken's notcooked.

(08:24):
That's weird, but no.

SPEAKER_03 (08:25):
That is weird.

SPEAKER_01 (08:26):
Yeah, we ended up figuring it out.

SPEAKER_03 (08:28):
So I have a pretty good little fire, and I have to
be careful how I talk becausewe're still investigating it.
However, I can talk about whatis public.
If you have time and you Googlesearch a Santa Ana carport fire,
it's all over the news.
It gives you stories and stuff,but we're currently
investigating that.
So I have a newer investigatorwith me and it was my turn to

(08:53):
capture like witness statementsand video.

SPEAKER_02 (08:55):
Okay.

SPEAKER_03 (08:56):
And so we listened to the first engine companies
on, this is like three 30 in themorning.

SPEAKER_02 (09:01):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (09:03):
So they're like, Hey, we're on scene and, We have
a huge header.
We have about 20 cars on fire ina carport.
Holy cow.
I'm like, whoa.
So let me describe the carportbecause you may be describing
like where you're at where maybeit's like a concrete carport or
like the ones where they'reagainst the back wall of a
property and then you just parkin there.

SPEAKER_01 (09:24):
Right.
That's exactly what I thought.

SPEAKER_03 (09:27):
This one is, so it's 10 on one side and then on the
other side, there's a dividingwall.
On the other side, there's 10.

SPEAKER_01 (09:33):
Oh,

SPEAKER_03 (09:34):
okay.
But it's covered with a roof,and it's at a peak.
And at the peak of the roof,they've just taken that lumber
from the walls and went all theway up, and that's where the
peak meets.
So it's 16-inch opening inbetween those studs.
So it's just allwell-ventilated.
So everybody that we'reinterviewing is like, hey, man,

(09:57):
we think it's important.
They poured gasoline.
There's no way it can do this.
So I'm just really proud of mynewer investigator.
I'm like, hey, don't listen tothem.
Don't get caught up in that.
You just do the forensics of it.
I will handle it.
There's so much damage.
I think you're only going to beable to get so far.
We're really going to have tosolve this through witness
statements, and maybe we'llcapture some video.

(10:20):
So all I can say is, sureenough, after hours of
interviewing a lot of people,I've ended up working back to
someone who had some camerafootage.
and someone who had snapped apicture early on in the fire.
And I can tell you, my partnergot it right on which side it

(10:41):
originated, but we found exactlythe car and where in the car it
started.
It wasn't gasoline.
It wasn't anything like that.
So just imagine if you have 20cars, 10 on one side, 10 on the
other, or burn cells.
So when I do the burn cells andwe just have a couch and like a
love seat in there.

SPEAKER_02 (11:01):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (11:02):
The amount of heat and the growth and the way that
fire spreads through radiationand conduction convection.
Imagine having 20 cars, whichhas a huge amount of heat
release rate.
It goes from one car to another.
You have a peaked roof, so it'scapturing all that heat.
So I think what they observed...

SPEAKER_01 (11:19):
Plus the ventilation.

SPEAKER_03 (11:20):
Plus the ventilation.
There's nothing keeping it fromgoing to the other side.
So it's going over the wallthrough that opening.
So...
one side was going, the otherside, like it all kind of took
off at once.
Like someone poured gasoline.
Well, that's the radiant heatand the convection bringing that
hot gas over and then justigniting.
So basically it was like aflashover on that side.

(11:42):
So when they're describing that,you know, one of our hypothesis,
like, yeah, someone could havedone that.

SPEAKER_02 (11:46):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (11:46):
Cause you have a fire that everyone's noticing
that where there was no fireearlier on.
So, but I'm like, Hey, don't,don't let that guide you.
he's like, no, no, no.
I'm just going to get out ofhere and I'm just going to do
the forensics of it.
I'm going to just see where thefire patterns take me.
So he did, he just did reallygood.

SPEAKER_01 (12:03):
It's so hard with where you're talking about like
him.
Don't let it guide you.
Stuff like that.
When on the private side, weoften have the insured there at
the same time, just talking andtalking and talking and talking.
When you're trying to do yourprocess of elimination, they're
asking you to tell them exact,like exactly what happened.

(12:25):
And I had a conversation theother day where, And I was just
like, I explained it.
I was like, my process isprocess of elimination.
So I've only been here for fiveminutes.
I've got things to do.
I've got to disprove myself on alot of this stuff.
And then I'll come back to youin a little bit.
And they were like, oh, okay.

(12:45):
But I lied.
I have another interesting onethat you're going to like.

SPEAKER_03 (12:48):
Oh, why did you hide it from me?

SPEAKER_01 (12:50):
Because I forgot and it popped in my head because I
was like, wait, that's a coolone too.
I had a potential.
There wasn't anything to collectand take samples of, but a
potential spontaneous heating.

SPEAKER_03 (13:03):
Self-heating.
I love it.
Okay.
Give me the details.

SPEAKER_01 (13:06):
So basically they were moving in and decided to
refinish the floors and therewas a fire the next morning.
They finished that night.

SPEAKER_03 (13:14):
Okay.

SPEAKER_01 (13:16):
Didn't properly dispose of things because they
didn't know.

SPEAKER_03 (13:19):
Yep.
No one really does.

SPEAKER_01 (13:21):
And yeah.
They're probably a

SPEAKER_03 (13:22):
younger family.
I

SPEAKER_01 (13:24):
didn't get to meet the people in person.
I don't even know how old themale was who did the staining
and stuff.
But he basically was just like,yeah, I was just refinishing the
floors because we previously hadcarpet.
And we left at 830 and came backthe next morning and there was
smoke everywhere.

SPEAKER_03 (13:43):
Oh, was the fire department called or there was
just smoke damage?

SPEAKER_01 (13:46):
They called the fire department once they arrived the
next morning.

SPEAKER_03 (13:51):
So it just smoldered?
Did it transition into likeflaming?

SPEAKER_01 (13:54):
He said he saw flames, a little bit of flames
when he walked in to see wherethe smoke was coming from, from
my area of origin.
He saw flames in that area andthen shut the door and called
the cops or called the firedepartment.
But yeah, that was exciting too.

SPEAKER_03 (14:09):
Yeah, if this is your first episode you're
listening to with us andenjoying this, thank you.
Go back and listen to DougByron's episode a couple
episodes back.
He talks about self-heating indepth, and I can't tell you how
many calls and DMs I got fromthat.
Oh, speaking of...
Speaking of calls and DMs.

(14:29):
Yeah, have you had anyinteresting contacts with any of
our listeners lately?
Has anyone reached out?

SPEAKER_01 (14:36):
Yeah, I would have to look on my phone now.

SPEAKER_03 (14:38):
so i had a really good one

SPEAKER_01 (14:40):
okay

SPEAKER_03 (14:40):
so i want to shout out to my new friend jamel he
called and he's like hey i justwant to get clarification so he
sends me through dm so it's awritten okay it's just basically
i mean it's a long thing butbasically summarize it he's okay
i just want to get clarificationof when and what's the best way
and when is the best time to dointerviews

SPEAKER_02 (15:02):
yeah

SPEAKER_03 (15:03):
and i'm like hey dude here's my personal cell
phone number man

SPEAKER_02 (15:06):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (15:06):
Because I can't, there's so many ways to answer
that.

SPEAKER_02 (15:09):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (15:10):
So we ended up talking for like an hour.
This is, this is why you and Iwanted to do this podcast.

SPEAKER_02 (15:16):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (15:17):
This guy is passionate.
He wants to get it right.
He's stoked in the field.
He's been doing it a couple ofyears.
And I told him, I said, Hey, Ineed to know your setup.
Like, how are you set up to dothis?
Are you a single resource or doyou have two investigators?
He goes, I'm a single.
I go, okay.
So if you look in 921 and, theyactually say best practice is to

(15:38):
capture the interviews first.
And in my experience, when I wasa single responding
investigator, I agree with thatbecause they're only excited
about the fire and wanna talk toyou for a limited time.
So as soon as like the flames godown and it gets cold and it
kind of gets boring, The peoplethat have information just start

(15:59):
going.

SPEAKER_01 (15:59):
Yeah.
The excitement has worn off.
They're ready to move on.

SPEAKER_03 (16:03):
Yeah.
So if you can capture those keyand nowadays everyone's got
video and someone may have thatvideo, like we just captured on
this, the carport fire, like,Oh, it's right there.
Matter of fact, it's right,right there.
Yeah.
So I'm like, Hey, even nine 21recommends it.
The only thing you need to beaware that it opens you up to
now is bias.

SPEAKER_02 (16:24):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (16:24):
Cause now you've had this, you've had that.
So if you can articulate, yeah,I use the scientific method.
Not only did I get thisstatement, I got nine other
different hypotheses that peoplethrew at me, like yours on that
one you were just talking about.
There's no way it's cookingfire.
The chicken wasn't burned.

SPEAKER_01 (16:39):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (16:40):
You're like, actually, that's a really good
point.
However, you hadn't seen thescene yet, right?

SPEAKER_01 (16:43):
Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 (16:44):
So you have that information and you're like,
okay, this is weird.
You're going, you can't unremovethat information.
Mm-hmm.
But you followed your process.
Exactly.
That would all make sense now.

SPEAKER_01 (16:56):
I didn't even go straight to the oven on that
one.
You have to start from theoutside and go in, regardless of
what your brain's thinking,because you'll get caught in a
bias situation.

SPEAKER_03 (17:05):
Well, let's talk about that.
That would be a great way tochallenge you.
So we go to court, and I don'tsee any exterior photos.
I don't see anything.
What if, during your sceneexamination, the power's cut off
and the gas is cut off?
You've now eliminated any...
way that oven stove was designedto operate now how are you

(17:27):
having a fire in there

SPEAKER_01 (17:28):
yeah exactly and

SPEAKER_03 (17:30):
so you don't document that we can open that
up you didn't document it wellhow do you know how do you know
someone didn't put something inthere and start those cloths on
fire

SPEAKER_01 (17:37):
exactly right

SPEAKER_03 (17:38):
yeah yeah so that's if you just got to follow that
process every way but jamel justthank you for the phone call i
just what we've been attractingyou and i Just people who are
passionate.
They love to talk at our level.
Like, oh, let's dig in more.
Well, let's find out

SPEAKER_01 (17:52):
more.
Just like going down the rabbitholes and challenging each
other.
It's just such a funconversation.
I,

SPEAKER_03 (17:59):
I loved it.
It just pumped me up.
You know, we've been, you and Ihave been under doing a lot this
week and last week.
Plus we've just had an onslaughtof training that we're involved
in lately.

SPEAKER_02 (18:09):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (18:09):
I've been like really just kind of like, all
right, I'm feeling my age alittle bit.

SPEAKER_02 (18:13):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (18:14):
First time I've done that.
And then when he called and wehad that conversation, he was
like, hey, thanks so much.
I appreciate taking time.
I'm like, no, this is why we doit.

SPEAKER_02 (18:20):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (18:21):
Because I had a bunch of guys that would always
pull me under.
They're like, hey, come here.
We want to show you this.
And I could ask any question andnot feel stupid, even if in
their mind they may have thoughtthat's a pretty rudimentary
question.

SPEAKER_01 (18:33):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (18:34):
And that's

SPEAKER_01 (18:35):
the worst when someone's like, you mean you
don't know that or somethinglike that?
That's just not the attitude tohave in a constantly learning
industry.
Yes,

SPEAKER_03 (18:45):
it does note.
I mean, sure, you can kick themin the teeth and then you may
stifle someone that's reallywanting to go and they're like,
I'm not getting accepted in thisfield.

SPEAKER_01 (18:54):
Yeah, it's like, what does that say about you?
But anyway.
Not everybody has those types ofconnections.
And I feel like that's part ofwhat we want, which we say this
all the time, but some peopleyou probably haven't listened or
whatever.
That's why we started thepodcast because we want to help

(19:14):
create those connections or bethat connection or whatever it
may be.

SPEAKER_03 (19:19):
And this is really, see, I wonder if you agree with
me on this.
We never meant to like promotegoing to IAAI or even NAFI,
National Association of FireInvestigators or your local
chapter, but we, That's a placewhere you can talk to
professionals and at least theboard members by design are

(19:41):
there to help you.
And whether you go to IWAI orNAFI or your local chapter, they
usually wear a uniform orsomething where they stand out.
And the intent of that is to Ihave a question.
Can I approach you on that?
And if he can't answer it, heknows nine other subject matter
experts that do.

SPEAKER_01 (19:59):
See, that's the intent, but it actually is a
fear factor.

SPEAKER_03 (20:03):
It does work in reverse sometimes.

SPEAKER_01 (20:04):
It's a reversed fear factor.
If you're not speaking from astudent perspective where I was
in college with all this andnever had a fire background,
didn't really feel that acceptedbecause of that, all that stuff.
When I would go to theseconferences in the beginning, I
would avoid those people.
I didn't want to be...
It's like...
Oh, God.

(20:25):
Because it's a sense...
They look like authority, whichis so weird because I'm on the
board now.
So it's like I'm one of thosepeople.
But...
Respect my authority.
Respect my authority.
But it's like...
Yeah.
Now that I've been on both sidesof the coin, you as a board
member or you as the person whohas the uniform on have to make
an effort to talk to many peoplebecause...

(20:48):
oftentimes they're too afraid tocome up to you because they they
know you're busy they don't wantto bother you or take up your
time or they think that youdon't want anything to do with
them or they don't know what theintent is to even have you there
like are they just there to likekeep everything in order and
make sure nobody's out of handor that everybody's listening
because you come from a schoolbackground like me and we're

(21:09):
like you know, be quiet and yougot to listen to the instructor
and all this stuff and you'llget in trouble if you do the
XYZ.
So I'm like, are these peoplehere to monitor if I'm paying
attention?

SPEAKER_03 (21:21):
Are they going to grade me?
Is this going to be on my reportcard?

SPEAKER_01 (21:23):
What's going on?
So yeah, just know that thepeople, if you're at a
conference, the people that arein the collared shirts and the
matching outfits or whatever arevery friendly, very well
connected and are there to talkand they will talk with you.

SPEAKER_03 (21:38):
That is the design now.
Also, you'll see Atlanta we tendto we would cluster together and
at every meeting so if you don'tknow most of your boards will
arrive a day or two earlythey'll have board meetings and
on our board we'd be like okayeveryone don't cluster together

SPEAKER_01 (21:53):
go out and meet people pick different spots at
the table bring someone with youto the table yeah

SPEAKER_03 (21:58):
but we all start we're working on like 19
different projects and then youget a lot and then another guy
sits down hey what about thisproject and then all of a sudden
we're kind of in this group andyou're like oh crap we're
supposed to be helping peopleyeah so but yeah make sure you
approach those people and yousaid something really
interesting you said somethingabout like a student right well
first of all i want to commentthe fact that you think that
they were looking after youtells me what kind of student
you were you probably were you atroubled child

SPEAKER_01 (22:20):
no i was a an anxious child that wanted to be
the perfect student so if i wasdoing anything out of the
ordinary or something i was Likeif I have whispered too loud or
if like my pin dropped orsomething, I'd be like, Oh my
God, I'm so sorry.
I'm so sorry.

SPEAKER_03 (22:40):
Just keep the class going.

SPEAKER_01 (22:41):
I'll just leave right now.
I was a very like, now this isme, like young, young me.
I was very quiet, put togetherwith severe ADHD, quiet into
myself and was just tapping myfeet basically like to get the
energy out of me.
But in college, um, I was alsoquiet until I started making

(23:01):
friends because I had such abusy schedule.
I couldn't make friends in classbecause I was running to dance
after.
Yeah, I

SPEAKER_03 (23:08):
remember you telling me

SPEAKER_01 (23:08):
that.
Yeah, so I was technically areally quiet, would occasionally
answer a question student untilI got friends.
And then I kind of changed intolike...
Not necessarily a troublemaker,but I would make jokes at the
instructors, and we would riffoff each other.
Yeah, it was fun.

SPEAKER_03 (23:28):
I can't imagine you quiet.
It

SPEAKER_01 (23:31):
was a very strange time for people to see me that
way.

SPEAKER_03 (23:35):
Leading into the two things, you said college and
stuff.
One thing I forgot to mention,this month, I'm enrolled in OSU,
so I'm going for my master's.

SPEAKER_01 (23:45):
That's this month?
It starts this

SPEAKER_03 (23:46):
month?
It starts the 18th.
So for any of my brothers andsisters starting, let's hook up
and get some study groups goingor something.
That's exciting.
I think Rick Jones, you need toknow from IWI, I think he's
starting as well.

SPEAKER_01 (23:58):
Oh, you guys should make a little study group
message or something.
There was someone else I feellike.
I

SPEAKER_03 (24:05):
know.
There was someone I cannotremember.
Someone super cool.
So sorry if I don't remember.
And then the other thing Iforgot to mention is two days
ago or yesterday, two days ago,We did, me and myself, along
with Sean Miller, who's aninvestigator with me where I
work, we did a two-hour classfor IAAI students, which you

(24:28):
promoted very well.
Thank you.
You're welcome.
We had a very good turnout.
But can I just say that Sawyerand Taylor?

SPEAKER_02 (24:34):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (24:35):
They are killing it.

SPEAKER_02 (24:36):
Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 (24:38):
You guys, even if you're not a student, sign up
for that thing.
They are making connections foryou to make connections with.
They proctored that class.
They brought it together.
This is one of many trainings

SPEAKER_01 (24:50):
that they put on.
Yeah.
And I think there's one everytwo months, I'm pretty sure.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (24:55):
In Sawyer's voice, you can hear the passion.
Yeah.
Taylor's just like superfriendly and like, hey, let's do
that.
I'm like, man, you guys.

SPEAKER_01 (25:02):
And she's challenging them.
She'll call their name out andhave them answer the questions
because they have a good workingrelationship with them.

SPEAKER_03 (25:08):
In a very cool way.
Not like you should know.
It's like, hey, why don't youtry it?

SPEAKER_01 (25:12):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (25:12):
And so I kind of.
vibed off that.
You fed off of it.
I'm like, hey, it's just us.
So if we don't answer it, noone's grading you.
We're here just to learn.
It

SPEAKER_01 (25:20):
cracked me up when you were like, is that Rick
Jones?
There was a guy that had asimilar accent to Rick Jones and
it was so funny.
I was dying laughing on theother end.

SPEAKER_03 (25:34):
Not only the accent, but that delivery Rick had.
And I'm like, is that RickJones?

SPEAKER_01 (25:40):
He had a similar twang and everything.
It was so funny.
I was cackling.
It was so good.
But he was rifting off theanswers.

SPEAKER_03 (25:49):
Every question in there was good.
The one guy who said, hey, whatare you doing for respiratory
protection in wildland?

SPEAKER_02 (25:57):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (25:58):
I'm like, that's funny.
You say that we're currentlylooking at, we hooked up the
clean space people, which we aresponsored by, but that's, that's
the nature of, we truly didthis.
And we try, we hooked them upwith the doctor who is currently
doing that cancer study throughArizona, where they found out I
have a bunch of PFAS in myblood.
And what they were talking aboutis they're going to get 10

(26:19):
firefighters at or aroundinvolved in a brush fire that we
can probably set and and then 10with a clean space and see how
much of that was absorbedthrough however, whatever, I
don't know if it's a blood testor whatever, but how they do it.
I'm like, man, that would be areally good study.

SPEAKER_01 (26:36):
Yeah, that really would be.
I mean, this is a good place toinsert clean space ad.
Perfect.
Oh,

SPEAKER_03 (26:44):
let's talk about clean space.

SPEAKER_01 (26:46):
Yeah.
I haven't opened the box yet.

SPEAKER_03 (26:48):
I know.
But just tell them.
I mean, so...
So Chastity, since we justmentioned Clean Space, what's a
new product that you have?

SPEAKER_01 (26:57):
I have officially gotten my Clean Space unit in
the mail.
I have not opened the box yet,but for good reason, because I'm
going to do an unboxing.
So I'm going to do an actualvideo of everything that comes
in it so you guys can see it.
I'll post it on our Instagram soyou can see what everything
entails and how it works and allthat jazz.

SPEAKER_03 (27:16):
So one thing I think you're underselling When I got
my trial one, which I have tosend back because our agency
just bought us all, so we'regoing to repackage them and send
them back.
You just make it sound like abox.
Mine came in just a smallcardboard box.

SPEAKER_01 (27:31):
Our box is different.
What's different in our box?
No, it's like a full-blownPelican case that's chargeable.
So you can plug the Pelican caseup and charge your mask in
there.
Or you can set up your ownsituation if you want to.
But you've got the full face,the half mask.
You've got the filters that comein a separate box.
It's just a whole...

(27:52):
They make it look really good.

SPEAKER_03 (27:54):
I'm excited.
I'm excited for the unboxing.

SPEAKER_01 (27:56):
Yeah.
It'll be so good.
I had another story that I'mgoing to insert because you were
talking about interviews.
Yes.
And I want to say, speaking ofinterviews, I was on a fire like
last month or something where Ihad a client that I was working
with that you don't often get ahold of the person, especially

(28:21):
if it's an apartment client.
You can't often get a hold ofthat person to get into their
unit, so you really heavilydepend on your neighborhood
canvas.
And so I go around thisapartment complex, and I'm
knocking on doors and takingstatements, and two of the
people had ring cameras.
And they're like, we have thetime stamps.

(28:41):
We were waiting for a fireinvestigator to come around.
Nobody has come and asked usabout anything.
And turns out that...
The person who lived in thisarea had worked for that area,
for that building, and wasfired.

SPEAKER_03 (28:58):
Uh-oh.

SPEAKER_01 (28:59):
And then was being evicted and was in the process
of moving out.
And then a fire happens.
And there's video footage.
This part is kind of like gory,though.

SPEAKER_03 (29:10):
We're getting true crimey here.

SPEAKER_01 (29:12):
Yeah.
There's video footage of herleaving before the fire with
stuff in her hand, like weird,comes back.
The alarm goes off.
She leaves again without herdog.
Her dog died.

SPEAKER_03 (29:28):
That makes me sad.

SPEAKER_01 (29:29):
In the apartment.
She left her dog in there,full-blown knowing the fire's in
her apartment.

SPEAKER_03 (29:35):
Have you ever interviewed her?

SPEAKER_01 (29:36):
No.

SPEAKER_03 (29:38):
There's

SPEAKER_01 (29:39):
video footage.
And they were like, what do wedo with it?
We have these timestamps of hercoming and going and leaving and
leaving during the fire alarm,not panicked.

SPEAKER_03 (29:49):
I have so many hypotheses in my head right now.

SPEAKER_01 (29:51):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (29:52):
And one of them is not good.

SPEAKER_01 (29:53):
Yeah.
There's ways that I could playdevil's advocate and make it
seem like maybe she just thoughtit was a drill.
Like maybe she didn't know.
But you could already see smoke.

SPEAKER_03 (30:07):
Ugh.

SPEAKER_01 (30:07):
So...
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (30:10):
Brutal.

SPEAKER_01 (30:10):
Interviews are important because I would have
not known any of that if I hadnot knocked on anyone's door.

SPEAKER_03 (30:17):
Yeah.
While we're on that, that's whyit's important to understand
your forensics sometimes canonly take you so far.
Mm-hmm.
On the Carport Fire, the best wewere going to do is which side
did it start on.

SPEAKER_01 (30:30):
Yeah.
Like in your head, you werelike, we're just going to get
one side.

SPEAKER_03 (30:33):
And as typical with newer investigators.
Mm-hmm.
He's like, well, I want to getdown.
I think it could be here.
I'm like, I agree with you.
I see why you say that.
But you're over committingbecause I can argue 19 other
ways why it's maybe startedhere.
I go, what are we sure of that Ireally can't out argue on?
He's like, I know it startedhere on this side.
I'm like, I am with you.
If you go any tighter than that,it's going to open up to a lot

(30:56):
of challenge.
I go, let me work the interviewside.
Because remember, what threethings do we need in order to
determine origin or that we'reallowed to use to determine
origin in 921?
Fire effects, fire dynamics.

SPEAKER_01 (31:10):
And witness statements.
And witness statements,

SPEAKER_03 (31:12):
right?
Yeah.
I say fire effects, but it'salso fire pattern, fire effects.
But witness statements.
And witness statements includevideo and stuff like that,
right?
Surveillance is so convenient.
And it's so prevalent.
It's everywhere.
Yeah.
Just today, even though I'm offduty, I'm still getting texts
from some of the propertymanagers like, hey, I think we
found some more video.
Hey, I think we found that.

(31:33):
So we're like, okay, cool.
Let's check it out.
Let me see it.
Is it clear?
Is it better?
Yeah.
But yeah, the fact that youcanvassed the apartment complex,
that's awesome.

SPEAKER_01 (31:42):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (31:42):
That's

SPEAKER_01 (31:43):
awesome.
And then we got some answers.
But I was going to saysomething.
Oh, yeah.
To your point of area of origin,I mean, even on the private
side, it's like that.
It's just sometimes I'm like,it's this half of the apartment.
I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 (31:56):
It's as far as you can

SPEAKER_01 (31:57):
get.
I can't talk this in withouthaving witness statements or
video footage.
And either they've cleaned thescene before I got there, which
is so inconvenient, or...
They

SPEAKER_03 (32:07):
destroyed the scene.
The fire guys have destroyed the

SPEAKER_01 (32:09):
scene.
Yeah, or the fire guys havedestroyed the scene.
But oftentimes, if the firedepartment hasn't thrown it out
and it doesn't get thrown away,I can usually try to reconstruct
my way back if it's still therefor me to see.
But a lot of the times, theythrow it out.
So the property owner throws itaway thinking it's

(32:29):
throw-away-able.
And that leaves me in a toughspot.

SPEAKER_03 (32:33):
I don't know if that's a word, though.

SPEAKER_01 (32:35):
Throw-away-able.

SPEAKER_03 (32:36):
I mean, I guess

SPEAKER_01 (32:36):
I understood what you meant.
Can you use it in a sentencethis week?
Throw-away-able.

SPEAKER_03 (32:43):
Throw-away-able.
Speaking of wacky, weird stuff.

SPEAKER_01 (32:45):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (32:47):
I saw another trend on social media.
I just wanted to try it with

SPEAKER_01 (32:49):
you.
Trendy.
Okay, let's go.
Let's see.

SPEAKER_03 (32:52):
I'm going to name just a couple movie quotes.

SPEAKER_01 (32:54):
Okay.

SPEAKER_03 (32:55):
And I want to know...
if you can tell me what moviethis is from.
Just a couple, nothing big.
They're older movies, butthey're classics.
And this one goes way back.
Not a chance you were even closeto being born at this time.

SPEAKER_01 (33:11):
I

SPEAKER_03 (33:13):
was about five.

SPEAKER_01 (33:15):
You were about five when this movie came out.
But I

SPEAKER_03 (33:16):
know it, if you know this movie.
And the quote is, I think weneed a bigger boat.

SPEAKER_01 (33:22):
So I just got to preface right now that...
I was not a movie person growingup.
My parents didn't show memovies.
I didn't watch movies.
I watched TV shows, but the onlymovies I watched...
Not very many.
Not very cultured in movies.
So anything that I've seen hasbeen like as an adult.

(33:44):
I'm often the friend that peopleare like, you mean you haven't
seen that movie?
Well,

SPEAKER_03 (33:47):
this is not going to work very well then.

SPEAKER_01 (33:49):
Exactly.
I just want to preface thatright now.
So, okay.
I need a bigger boat.
No.
I think you're

SPEAKER_03 (33:54):
going to need a bigger boat.

SPEAKER_01 (33:55):
I think we're going to need a bigger boat.

SPEAKER_03 (33:57):
What if I do this?
Oh, is it Jaws?
Jaws.

SPEAKER_01 (34:01):
Oh, okay.
Very good.

SPEAKER_03 (34:03):
They've

SPEAKER_01 (34:04):
redone that a million times, so of course I
know Jaws.

SPEAKER_03 (34:07):
But you didn't get the line.

SPEAKER_01 (34:08):
Yeah, no.

SPEAKER_03 (34:09):
Okay.
Here's another line.
Because

SPEAKER_01 (34:11):
I haven't seen that

SPEAKER_03 (34:12):
one.
You may not have seen this one,though.
This is a family classic.
My sister and I used to watch itgrowing up all the time.
It's great.

SPEAKER_01 (34:19):
What year?

SPEAKER_03 (34:19):
I'm moving you forward into the 80s now.
Okay.

SPEAKER_01 (34:24):
Still not born.
And it's playing on

SPEAKER_03 (34:25):
a TV in the background, but it's a famous
line because then this personuses it later on during the
movie.

SPEAKER_01 (34:31):
I can tell you right now what it is.

SPEAKER_03 (34:32):
What?
Home Alone.
Oh, my gosh.
What's the line?
Hold

SPEAKER_01 (34:36):
on.
Let me think.
Because he's sitting there andhe's like, keep the change, you
filthy animal.
That's the line.
Oh, I didn't think you weregoing to get it.
Oh, that's one of my favoritemovies.
Oh, yes.
I love Home Alone.

SPEAKER_03 (34:48):
Okay.

SPEAKER_01 (34:49):
How did I...

SPEAKER_03 (34:50):
You

SPEAKER_01 (34:51):
literally just said it's on in the background on a
TV.
And I was like, I already knowthe movie.

SPEAKER_03 (34:54):
Beautiful.
Next.
I was panicky.
You weren't going to get that.
I doubt you're going to get thisone.

SPEAKER_01 (35:03):
What year?
Oh,

SPEAKER_03 (35:06):
you'll get this one.
I know it because my wife lovesthis show.
A movie.
I'm sorry.
It was a big popular show backthen.
And I wouldn't have caught theline, but now I know it because
my wife says it.
But the line is, no one putsbaby in a corner.

SPEAKER_01 (35:25):
Oh, yeah.
Dirty dancing.
Oh, okay.
Yeah.
Yeah,

SPEAKER_03 (35:27):
I didn't really.
I would have never caught thatif my wife didn't.

SPEAKER_01 (35:29):
I've only seen that movie.
Actually, I don't know if I'veever seen that movie all the way
through.
But I just know it becausepeople quote it all the time.

SPEAKER_03 (35:39):
What about...
I'm just going to test your nerdhere.
Hold

SPEAKER_01 (35:44):
on.
I feel so good about the HomeAlone one, though.
That was like some telepathicstuff.

SPEAKER_03 (35:49):
Okay, here we go.

SPEAKER_01 (35:50):
Okay.

SPEAKER_03 (35:51):
Very, very popular movie.
What year?
Early 80s.
Okay.
I'm just going to start.
If I tell you more, you'reright.
Let me just say it then.
So, there is no try, only do it.

SPEAKER_01 (36:09):
It's Star Wars.
Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_03 (36:11):
Which one?

SPEAKER_01 (36:12):
Yoda.
I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 (36:14):
So

SPEAKER_01 (36:15):
the reason I know that is I've seen when I had my
ACL surgery I think I watchedfour of them.

SPEAKER_03 (36:23):
Let me ask you before you go on.
Because your boyfriend wanted toor you just wanted to watch
them?

SPEAKER_01 (36:28):
I wanted to watch them because I had never before
And I just was like, everybody'sobsessed with Yoda.
And I think Baby Yoda was comingout or whatever.
Anyway, neither here nor there.
So fun fact is my college danceteam, our nationals quote my
junior year on the back of ourshirt was that.

SPEAKER_03 (36:49):
Oh.

SPEAKER_01 (36:49):
So I had to know it.

SPEAKER_03 (36:52):
All right.
Yeah.
Then we'll stay in that genre.

SPEAKER_01 (36:56):
Okay.

SPEAKER_03 (36:57):
And the quote's going to be, Live long and
prosper.

SPEAKER_01 (37:03):
I know that.
But I know the quote.
Joe

SPEAKER_03 (37:07):
Bermatino is going crazy right now when he's
listening to this episode.
Say it again.
Live long and prosper.

SPEAKER_01 (37:15):
What year?

SPEAKER_03 (37:16):
Joe is screaming at you right now.
What year is the movie from?
Well, it was a series.
Then it went into movies.
Then it went into movies.
Multiple movies.
Then there was another series.
Then another movie.
So it's a whole franchise.

SPEAKER_01 (37:30):
And you know it?
Have you seen it?

SPEAKER_03 (37:34):
I've seen a lot of them.
Yeah, when I was growing up.

SPEAKER_01 (37:36):
Was it like Star Trek or

SPEAKER_03 (37:38):
something?
That was it.
That's it.
Do you know who says it?

SPEAKER_01 (37:40):
No.
If I

SPEAKER_03 (37:41):
said Spock, would you even know who that is?
Yeah.
Oh, that's who says it.

SPEAKER_01 (37:44):
But I've never seen them.
Okay.
I've not seen one Star Trek.
Sorry, Joe.
I can put context cluestogether, though, and guess
things pretty well.

SPEAKER_03 (37:56):
Oh, okay.
Okay.
I got another one.
This one.
I saw this in a drive-in.
It's

SPEAKER_01 (38:02):
so funny because I could do this with you, too,
with newer

SPEAKER_03 (38:05):
movies.
I'd be like, what is that?
I saw this.
But these are people culturallywould know these.
They left an impact on ourAmericana and beyond that, some

SPEAKER_02 (38:16):
of these.

SPEAKER_03 (38:16):
My parents had taken us.
We were driving through a movie.
My sister got scared of it,although it's not a scary movie.
And the famous line is, I'mleaving a little part up, but it
says, phone home.

SPEAKER_01 (38:31):
Yeah, E.T.
Oh, jeez.
I've seen that.

SPEAKER_03 (38:33):
Okay.

SPEAKER_01 (38:34):
Well, I don't know.
I don't know.
Because Drew Barrymore.

SPEAKER_03 (38:36):
Yes.

SPEAKER_01 (38:37):
She's iconic in that movie.
All right.
Little baby.
Of course I know E.T.

SPEAKER_03 (38:42):
I don't think you'll get this one.

SPEAKER_01 (38:43):
Okay.
Yeah, give me a challenge.
Jeez.

SPEAKER_03 (38:45):
Every guy on here is going to know it.

SPEAKER_01 (38:47):
Oh, then I'm probably going to know

SPEAKER_03 (38:49):
it.
No.

SPEAKER_01 (38:49):
I had a brother.

SPEAKER_03 (38:50):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (38:50):
I mean, I have a brother.
He's still alive.

SPEAKER_03 (38:52):
I'm just going to give you the quote.
I'm not giving you any contextbecause you're using the context
more than the quote.

SPEAKER_01 (38:57):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (38:58):
I'm going to say it in my voice.

SPEAKER_01 (39:00):
Can you give me a year, at least?
Or the

SPEAKER_03 (39:02):
year-ish?
Probably like 80, because Ididn't see it until guys in the
firehouse were like, you haven'tseen it?
We're watching it tonight.
And we had a party thing.
Say hello to my little friend.

SPEAKER_01 (39:13):
I know that.

SPEAKER_03 (39:15):
What is it?

SPEAKER_01 (39:16):
I know the quote, though.

SPEAKER_03 (39:17):
What is it?
Name anything, the movie, theperson who said it, the

SPEAKER_01 (39:20):
actor.
It's Scarface.

SPEAKER_03 (39:22):
Well done.
Do you know who said it?

SPEAKER_01 (39:26):
The actor?
Yeah, I can see his face.
Well, that doesn't tell meanything.
It's an Italian name.

SPEAKER_03 (39:36):
Al Pacino.

SPEAKER_01 (39:36):
Al Pacino, yeah.
I about said Tarantino.
Close enough.
Wow, I'm good.
Okay.

SPEAKER_03 (39:47):
I know you're going to get this one.
Okay.
I feel the need...
For speed.
What movie?

SPEAKER_01 (39:53):
Need for Speed.
I mean, Fast and Furious.

UNKNOWN (39:56):
What?

SPEAKER_01 (39:57):
No?
No.
What is it?
I can see why you would

SPEAKER_02 (40:00):
think

SPEAKER_01 (40:00):
that.
I know that I feel the need forspeed because I used to play the
video game Need for Speedgrowing up.
No.
Wait, hold on.
Let me think.
No.
Is it cars or is it planes?

SPEAKER_03 (40:15):
It's planes.

SPEAKER_01 (40:16):
Is it Top Gun?
Yes.

SPEAKER_03 (40:17):
Okay.
Oh, so good.
I could see why you would gothere.
You're just so darn logical.

UNKNOWN (40:24):
I know.

SPEAKER_01 (40:25):
Hope you guys are having fun, as much fun as we
are.

SPEAKER_03 (40:28):
I'll do one more.
I saw this.
This guy was trying to talk tohis younger daughter, and he
said, my baloney has a firstname.
It's O-S-C-A-R.

SPEAKER_01 (40:39):
Yeah.
My baloney has a second name.
It's Meyer.
Oscar Meyer has a way with theO-L-O-G-N-Y.
Her

SPEAKER_03 (40:44):
response was like, because he wouldn't finish the
last sentence, she's like, youguys all named your baloney back
then?
What?

UNKNOWN (40:51):
What?

SPEAKER_03 (40:52):
Anyway, I just want to have a little fun with you.
We haven't had a game for awhile.

SPEAKER_01 (40:55):
Yeah, that was fun.
I enjoy those things.

SPEAKER_03 (40:58):
I don't know if our listeners do.
We'll see.

SPEAKER_01 (41:00):
Yeah, we will see.
You want to know how long?
You're all

SPEAKER_03 (41:03):
not shy on telling us what you think.

SPEAKER_01 (41:05):
For real.
No, and you know what?
When you said that you've hadinteresting interactions from
listeners, I've had a lot ofgood interactions when I posted
that I'd started the businessonline.
A lot of the people whocommented and said thank you, or
not thank you.
A lot of people who hadcommented and said
congratulations were like, lovethe podcast, by the way.

(41:27):
Oh,

SPEAKER_03 (41:28):
good.

SPEAKER_01 (41:28):
Like would add something in about the podcast.
Like I've been listening orblah, blah, blah.
And I'm like, oh my gosh, thankyou guys for listening.
So we are very appreciative ofeveryone who's listening.
Everyone who has been listeningsince day one or day, whatever
day we're on.
What day?
How long have we been doingthis?
A year and a half?
A

SPEAKER_03 (41:47):
year and a half, but interesting.
I ran the analytics the othernight just to see what's going
on.
And if we keep the pace at whichyou guys are listening to and
you keep giving us the fivestars, which we always
appreciate that.
Yeah,

SPEAKER_01 (42:01):
because AI can't do it.
Yeah.
So you guys have to do it.

SPEAKER_03 (42:05):
Oh, by the way, remind me of something AI.
But we really appreciate it.
And according to the analytics,we may be in the top 10%.
of all podcasts that are hostedby Buzzsprout, which we're like,
what?
How is

SPEAKER_01 (42:17):
that possible?
So crazy.
Because we're so niche.
It's just crazy that we're intop 10%.

SPEAKER_03 (42:21):
Yeah, I think we are.
We have to wait to the end ofthe year.
But right now, it's like if theyrun the numbers now, you're
between the top 1% and 10%.
I'm like, what is happeningright now?

SPEAKER_01 (42:30):
You guys, that's all thanks to you.

SPEAKER_03 (42:31):
So thank you.
Well, let's talk about what weare actually known for, and
that's FIRE.
FIRE

SPEAKER_01 (42:38):
investigation.
I feel like we had some reallygood...
stories in the beginning thoughso it pulled us through but do
we want to get into some of oursegments or are we talking about
something that you had an ideaabout

SPEAKER_03 (42:54):
well this is part of a segment i guess you're right
huh

SPEAKER_01 (42:57):
yeah i didn't know because usually when you go to
your paper it's a segment okaywhat is it tell me what it is

SPEAKER_03 (43:03):
i did something really cool with ai the other
day

SPEAKER_01 (43:05):
what was that thing that you told me to remind you
about ai what was

SPEAKER_03 (43:08):
oh you guys so As we're broadcasting this, ChatGPT
5 just came out.
But prior to that, there was abutton on there that if you
click it, you can use the agentmode.
You guys, I'm telling you, I'veused it about five times now.

(43:28):
It's amazing.
I would go to ChatGPT.
The only thing I don't know isbecause I do pay$20 a month for
that because I teach on that somuch.
I don't know if you get accessto agent mode if you use the
free version.
It may be worth going up to the$20, but let me tell you what I
did.
I had a question.

(43:49):
So the agency I worked for, wewere absorbed by the current
agency I work with.
And what happened is those of usthat have pensions from that
agency, California does spotaudits every once in a while.
And one of our guys got audited.
And they said, hey, we've lookedat everything.
We see that your uniformallowance is doesn't have any

(44:11):
backing on why it should beincluded and wrapped up into
your pension, we want to workwith you.
But if you can't finddocumentation, we're going to
have to remove that.
And everyone who's gotten thatsince he retired is going to
have to pay that money back.

SPEAKER_01 (44:22):
Holy cow.

SPEAKER_03 (44:23):
And that's not the first time that they've done
this.
So I got a phone call, a panicphone call.
Hey, dude, they're doing this.
I'm like, all right.
I said, I have a MOU from 17,18.
We went over in 2019.
And someone had the MOU from2009 to 12.
And I remember we negotiated andwe just extended the 12 contract
over to 15 or something.

(44:44):
Bottom line, I didn't have theaddendum or the resolution
saying that our uniformallowance was pensionable.
I couldn't find it.
I called other past presidentsand board members like we
couldn't find it.
So I went to agent mode in chatGPT.
I clicked on agent and I go.

(45:06):
I want you to search the entireinternet for any and all
documents for local 2005 GardenGrove Fire Department.
And I want you to provide me alink.
Once you're done, let me know.
It says, okay, I'll do it.
So what it does, it takes,you'll see a screen pop up and
it starts using your internetand it shows you in real time.

(45:26):
It's like, Okay, Scott asked meto do this.
Okay, I'm looking for this.
Okay, that's not Garden Grove.
This is the one I

SPEAKER_01 (45:32):
want.
And you can see it doing allthat.

SPEAKER_03 (45:33):
It's doing it.
So instead of taking over yourcomputer, which would kind of
freak you out, it makes a littlewindow and it creates its own
browser like you have.
And you see it clicking throughthe website, going to the city
of Garden Grove, and it'stelling you exactly what's...
And it's showing its logic.
It was amazing.

SPEAKER_01 (45:48):
Oh, my Lord.
I'm going to be using that allthe time.

SPEAKER_03 (45:50):
After 15 minutes...
It came back and it says, here'sthe documents you have.
Here's one specific.
It has a resolution.
I clicked it.
It brought me to the document.
And then I said, write a letterto CalPERS, letting him know
this is a document showing theagreement.
Please.
Thank you for the time that itwrote this professional letter.
I sent it to my buddy who wasgetting audited.

(46:12):
He put his name and we send it.
Boom.
They're good.
That's exactly what we needed.
I'm telling you, that would havetaken me, you know, maybe an
hour.
Yeah, it did it.
And wrote the letter in 15minutes.
So I did it again the other day.
I had somebody come over andthey're like, hey, Scott, we're
trying to see what this budgetwas for a certain section in our
agency.

(46:33):
I'm trying to compare the 2019up till now.
We have not been given theamount of an increase in budget
relevant to everybody else whennot keeping up with inflation.
That's why our sections needsto.
They're trying to argue like youaren't giving us amount of money
that we should to keep up withwhat we're doing.
Yeah.
So I go, hey, can I show yousomething?
They're like, yeah.

(46:53):
So I went to chat GPT.
I put in agent.
So you'll see a plus thing inthe sign-in sheet.
I'm sorry, in the search bar.
In the sign-in sheet.
I know.
It's not there right now aswe're speaking because they
switched to chat GPT-5.
So I don't know where to find itright now because it literally
came out.
But you push it.

(47:14):
You say agent mode.
I said, find the budget for thispart of this agency right Once
you're done, take all that, putit into an Excel spreadsheet,
show me the cost, and thencalculate the percentages.
Next to that, find what theaverage inflation was in
California for those same times,put it there, and show me how

(47:37):
it's not keeping up withinflation or if it is.
20 minutes, I walked away.
Me and that person got coffee.
We came back.
It was done in an Excelspreadsheet.
It gave you everything and itgave me links directly to the
documents.
You guys.
You guys.
You've

SPEAKER_01 (47:49):
got to start using this.
You should see my face.
I'm like thinking about all thethings I'm going to have this
agent do for me.

SPEAKER_03 (47:56):
It's like having a coworker.
That's awesome.
And everything so far has beenaccurate.
Now, I always give mydisclaimer.
These AIs can hallucinate.
So you always have to fact checkeverything.
Go to the links, make surethey're the right links.
I did something the other dayand I think for the test for the

(48:17):
students, for the IWAI webinar

SPEAKER_02 (48:20):
we just did.

SPEAKER_03 (48:22):
I'm like, hey, here's my presentation.
Here's my content.
Help me write 10 questions.
Not necessarily hard, but thatget drive the point across.
And this is what I'm trying todo in these like 10 slides.
So it wrote them and I'm like,make sure you give me the right
answer.
I want to verify which one andshow me exactly in the
PowerPoint where you did it.
Well, I got some of them wrong.
I'm like, oh, yeah.
I'm like, okay.

(48:42):
So it doesn't know everything.
You have to double check yourwork.
But it does 90% of the heavylift

SPEAKER_01 (48:47):
and then the 10%.
It has its limitations.

SPEAKER_03 (48:49):
Yeah.
So with this chat GPT-5, they'resaying the hallucinations have
gotten down to like 1.9%.

SPEAKER_01 (48:56):
You just said hallucinations.

SPEAKER_03 (48:58):
Hallucinations.
Anyway, that was my little chatGPT or AI fun for the day.
As you know, we're teaching aclass in September.

SPEAKER_02 (49:07):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (49:08):
So I work that agent into our class.
I haven't shared it with youyet, so that's why you're
learning at the same time.
So we're going to put that inthe curriculum.

SPEAKER_01 (49:17):
I actually pay for ChatGPT as well, so I'm going to
go play with that when I gethome.

SPEAKER_03 (49:23):
The thing is they just upgraded it, so it's kind
of different.
Because remember, when you usedto go on to ChatGPT, there was
4.0, 3.0, 4.0 Mini, so 4.0.
anything with an O in it,

SPEAKER_02 (49:35):
that

SPEAKER_03 (49:36):
was research related.
It would do deep research.

SPEAKER_02 (49:38):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (49:39):
But if you went to three mini, four mini, that was
just like straight, like, okay,here's what I know.
So you wouldn't know which oneto use unless you're kind of
nerdy like me.
Yeah.
So what chat GPT five issupposed to do, you'll notice
there's no more, you don't havean option.

SPEAKER_02 (49:56):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (49:57):
There, those other models are still there.
They live there.
But it has an internal router.
So if you ask a question, it'sgoing to say, hey, I'm not going
to waste your tokens.
Because, you know, even when youpay, you only get so many
questions and answers.

SPEAKER_02 (50:11):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (50:11):
I'm not going to waste your tokens using 4.0.
This can be a 3 mini and almostuse no tokens

SPEAKER_01 (50:16):
at all.

SPEAKER_03 (50:18):
Yeah.
And it will get the job done forwhat the level of research
you're looking for.
Yeah, that's really sick.
It's real.
I mean, yeah, it's good.

SPEAKER_01 (50:24):
What I've been using.
Daily AI right now is like anemail assistant.

SPEAKER_03 (50:29):
Oh, which one?
What are you doing?

SPEAKER_01 (50:30):
So I was using Fixer for a little while.
Okay.
But that's$50 a month.
So I found one called Jace.

SPEAKER_03 (50:38):
Spell it.

SPEAKER_01 (50:39):
So I didn't pay for Fixer.
I got the free trial.
And then when it said$50 amonth, I was like, no.
So I find one.
Jace, it's J-A-C-E.

SPEAKER_03 (50:47):
J-A-C-E,

SPEAKER_01 (50:48):
okay.
It's only like$12.50 a month.

SPEAKER_03 (50:50):
Let me ask you something.
What is it doing for you?

SPEAKER_01 (50:54):
It...
it color codes my emails basedoff of if it's needs to be
replied to if i'm waiting for areply if it's an fyi type of
email if it like it has eightdifferent colors for different
things that i need itcategorized for okay it does my
drafts for me so if someone'semailed me it'll make a draft

(51:16):
already i'll go click on it readit if i like it i'll keep it if
i don't i'll obviously edited orwhatever, but it's just, it
makes my life a lot easier.

SPEAKER_03 (51:26):
So, you know what you and I both have Gemini in
our Google account.

SPEAKER_01 (51:31):
Yeah.
I played with that.

SPEAKER_03 (51:32):
You didn't like it.

SPEAKER_01 (51:33):
It's just, it doesn't label.
Nope.
It won't label your emails.
It, and it's like the draftportion.
I don't know.
It's just like, which is whythese places are making money.
It doesn't have enough all inone.
You're having to like doextensions and order it.
it to be able to do certainstuff and this for 12.50 a month

(51:57):
I'm like it does everything forme it's adapting to my language
from my previous emails

SPEAKER_03 (52:02):
so y'all and yeehaw

SPEAKER_01 (52:03):
no not for work I don't do yeehaw for work but
yeah so I like it so far nice

SPEAKER_03 (52:13):
Scott yes ma'am what the What the we train
frequently.

SPEAKER_01 (52:18):
We do train frequently.
That's for sure.

SPEAKER_03 (52:22):
And our hope is that you do too.
And if you're not, we're goingto give you some places you can
go.
Actually, I have a couple of funones that I'm very excited for.
And I'm very sad because I can'tattend them.
And in all seriousness, I'm nothappy about that.
So if you're looking to go to achapter conference and you're in
North Dakota, they are havingtheir annual training conference

(52:44):
September 24th.
through September 26th.
Nebraska, I think we covered itlast episode, but we just want
to make sure they get mentionedin September 16th through
September 18th in Norfolk,Nebraska.
Of course, in California, ifyou're here locally, it's CCAI
and it's going from October 6thto October 9th, 2025 in San Luis

(53:11):
Obispo.
And the last two, if you're inArkansas, it's Fire Prevention
and Investigation Conference.
That's going to be October 14ththrough October 16th.
And the final one is in Alabama.
They're going to have theirconference from October 27th to
October 29th in Orange Beach.

(53:35):
And then there's some onlinetraining I wanted to make you
aware of.
And this is the one I wassaying, I'm very bummed.
And you're going to be bummedtoo.

SPEAKER_02 (53:42):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (53:43):
Well, I don't know.
You may be able to attend.
I'm teaching class.

SPEAKER_01 (53:45):
Online?

SPEAKER_03 (53:46):
Yes.
Okay.
So we've mentioned before firefindings.
Yes.
They're awesome.
They're based out of Michigan.
If you can take any class there,I would.
Just even the classroom is madefor learning, just on the walls.
There's things hanging of thingsthat went bad, and you have to
kind of figure out during breakwhat happened, and then they'll
go over it later in the class.

(54:07):
But September 9th, throughSeptember 12th, they're having
a, I think it's called a gasappliance or post-explosion
class due to like appliances andstuff like that.
And one of the instructors isDr.
Gorbett.

SPEAKER_01 (54:19):
This is online?

SPEAKER_03 (54:21):
No, I'm sorry.
No, you go in person.

SPEAKER_01 (54:22):
This one's not online.
Yeah, you said yes because I waslike, I thought we talked about
this and it's not online.

SPEAKER_03 (54:27):
No, I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_01 (54:27):
I would love to go.

SPEAKER_03 (54:29):
Well, so it's in Flint, it looks like.
Flint, Michigan?
Yeah, but usually they'resomewhere else.
I would go to fire findings.
Just Google that.
And then go under their trainingand find it.
Because I don't want to give youbad information.
It is a group of money.
It's$1,300.
Okay.
But the value and who'sinstructing.

SPEAKER_02 (54:49):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (54:50):
If you're going to learn that or you're interested
in that type of fire damage,$1,300 is totally worth it.

SPEAKER_02 (54:56):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (54:56):
And then the final one.
It's going to be September 3rdthrough September 5th in
Bloomington, Illinois.
That's Steve Riggs.
It's through LLRMI, which isLegal and Liability Risk
Management Institute.
If you go to their website, youcan find it, sign up for it.
It's a great class.
I've taken that one personallymyself with Steve, and then I

(55:18):
think the other gentleman is TimYendel.
I had a great experience.
They do it right.
When I do my training, I'veborrowed some of the ideas that
they do because the way theyteach, it just really reinforces
the right way to do it and howit can go sideways.
So I don't know the cost onthat, but once again, go to
llrmi.com.

(55:39):
See if you can get out there.
It'll be in Illinois September3rd through September 5th.

SPEAKER_01 (55:44):
Did you do our Illinois one?

SPEAKER_03 (55:49):
Yeah, I'm going

SPEAKER_01 (55:51):
to do it.
I have one.
I saw it on LinkedIn, so Iscreenshotted it.
Go

SPEAKER_02 (55:54):
ahead, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (55:54):
So in New Jersey, they're having their second
annual fire investigationsymposium.
So it's presented by SuperiorFire and Emergency Response
Training, LLC.
It's October 11th through the12th from 9 a.m.
to 3 p.m.
That's going to be in PointPleasant, New Jersey.
They're doing appliance fires,fill-a-side, by-fire fires, and

(56:19):
John Orr Serial Arsonist Q&A onserial arsonists.
And you can register atsuperioremergencytraining.com.
That's going to be$250.
So if you're in that area, thatseems like a pretty cool thing
to get into.

SPEAKER_03 (56:34):
Yeah.
And then finally, we've said itbefore, but we want to get a big
showing here in Illinois fortheir chapter meeting.
Yeah.
It's going to be September 15ththrough the 17th.
And it's going to be in Peoria.
Chastity and I will be teachinga class on AI on Monday.
I then have a defense attorneyfrom the Innocence Center here

(56:55):
in San Diego.
We're going to be presenting aclass on how you can, more like
a report format, kind of gothrough.
She'll be able to show you how.
If you don't just even havethese basics, you're opening
yourself up for a lot of reallylow-hanging fruit arguments.
And then on Wednesday...
Miss Chastity and I will bedoing a live segment of the

(57:18):
podcast there.
We'd love you to say bye.
We'd love you to jump on one ofthese microphones, say shout out
to whoever.
Last time we did it at the IAAI,we met a lot of cool people.
So fun.
And sometimes just grab somebodyand

SPEAKER_01 (57:29):
be like, hey, we love your show.
Sit down with us.
Let's talk.

SPEAKER_03 (57:32):
Yeah,

SPEAKER_01 (57:33):
if we have time for it, it's a lot of fun getting to
know somebody.

SPEAKER_03 (57:36):
Yeah, so we'll be there doing that.
And that's all I have for WTF.

SPEAKER_01 (57:40):
For WTF.

SPEAKER_03 (57:42):
I so bad want to make a theme song, but I know
you think it's stupid.

SPEAKER_01 (57:45):
I do.

SPEAKER_03 (57:45):
I know.

SPEAKER_01 (57:46):
I do.
I do.
I mean, maybe you can prove mewrong.
Show me a couple samples.

SPEAKER_03 (57:50):
All right.
I'll see if AI can make a themesong.

SPEAKER_01 (57:52):
You never know, but we can't end.
No, we can't.
Without.
Can you?
Use it.
In a sentence.
Can you use it in a sentence?

SPEAKER_03 (58:00):
So last episode, I left you with undetermined
generated fire patterns.
I really wasn't going to coverit because it explains what it
is, but I think it's importantthat you have to understand
that.
Our forensics has limitations.
And if you can't conclusivelysay what it is, meaning if I
have two really good possibleexplanations, then that pattern

(58:20):
is going to be undetermined.
It could have been from this orit could have been from this.
Now, maybe early on in yourinvestigation, you may go, I
have these two patterns.
I'm not sure what's going on.
but after you're done doing yourcomplete scene exam, you start
looking at windows orventilation openings, you can
go, oh, this is consistent withmore ventilation driven, okay?
But you may walk away notknowing.

(58:42):
But in the book, that title, isin 6.4.6 and just basically it
says undetermined generatedpatterns.
If the fire patterns generatedcannot be conclusively
determined, then the firepattern is noted as
undetermined.
There are times that theinvestigator cannot discern what
caused the patterns due to theseverity of fire damage or due

(59:04):
to too many conflictingvariables that could be
attributed to more than onecause.
So I say that because sometimesI assume we all know that
there's limitations Maybe wecan't answer every aspect of
every part of a fire scene.
As long as if you putundetermined, just to put why
it's undetermined, like it couldhave either been a drop down and

(59:25):
or it was in the path of aventilation flow.
Just be honest, because ifyou're not in a mixed trial,
someone's going to challenge youon that and they can give the
other reason for it.
So that's why I put it.
So next episode, I'm going towrap all these together.
And we'll just kind of walkthrough them and then how we use
these to get back to like ourarea of origin and start using

(59:45):
it for cause.
But that was it for me.

SPEAKER_01 (59:47):
Yeehaw.
Yeehaw.
That's exciting.

SPEAKER_03 (59:50):
Do you got a word?

SPEAKER_01 (59:51):
No, we're not doing a word.
You're going over it all nextweek.
Then we'll do a word.

SPEAKER_03 (59:55):
Oh, okay.
Well, that's very good then.

SPEAKER_01 (59:58):
Then we're done.
All right.
Well, yeehaw.
That's our first episode backand we killed it.

SPEAKER_03 (01:00:06):
We actually ran out of time.

SPEAKER_01 (01:00:08):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (01:00:08):
I mean, you may have to trim down the game thing.
I'm not sure if our listenerslike it, but heck, we have a
blast.

SPEAKER_01 (01:00:14):
I mean, I've always heard that they like the dynamic
and that they think it's fun,but if we get any hate...

SPEAKER_03 (01:00:20):
We listen.

SPEAKER_01 (01:00:21):
We listen, but we also are still going to do us.
Yeah.
But anyway, thanks forlistening.
Welcome back to the...
in-person live episodes andwe're excited to start recording
these in real time but yeah

SPEAKER_03 (01:00:36):
as we start to teach some of these AI classes and
then the material has alreadygone through we'll start
bringing them more into thispodcast so you guys can use it
as more of a research tool

SPEAKER_02 (01:00:46):
yeah

SPEAKER_03 (01:00:47):
but We're still in the process of trying to switch
this to video.
What did you say?
Would it be better for YouTube?
What were

SPEAKER_01 (01:00:56):
you talking about?
Yeah, if we want video episodeswhere they can watch us, then...
Yeah, YouTube would be best.

SPEAKER_03 (01:01:02):
That's the key.
We want to show you.
I don't have to explain to youlike, okay, in the search bar,
there's a plus thing.
You hit it and then there'sagent mode.
We'll just walk you through it.
Plus, we have some cool stufffrom like Firefox to we have
Fulgurite from when Fulgurite,when the electricity hit the
ground.
So you guys can see what thatis.
That way, if you ever getchallenged, like, yeah, I've
actually seen it.
Some old man on the podcastshowed it to me.

SPEAKER_01 (01:01:23):
Oh, update on the newsletter.

SPEAKER_03 (01:01:26):
Yeah, I was like, what?

SPEAKER_01 (01:01:27):
I did not realize how difficult it is to...
coordinate a newsletter I nowwriting it that's not going to
be the hard part the hard partis creating where all the emails
are going to come in and wewould be emailing it out to like
you have to like have somethinglike a MailChimp or something

(01:01:48):
like that that does that, thatyou can create the newsletter in
so that it's like integrated.
But now that I have an agent.

SPEAKER_03 (01:01:55):
Yeah, you should get

SPEAKER_01 (01:01:56):
an agent.
Now that I have an agent, I'mgoing to look into it.
And we can get a

SPEAKER_03 (01:01:59):
website.
So, you know, for all myclasses, I make a website just
for that class.
And I'll upload all of thestudent material in there.
And it's free.
I just go, I make this

SPEAKER_01 (01:02:09):
website.
I just wanted us to have like anemail list.
where we could email it to themevery week.
Oh, I see what you're saying.
Or every two

SPEAKER_03 (01:02:16):
weeks.
So it's pushed to them.
They don't have to come seek it.

SPEAKER_01 (01:02:19):
Yeah.
I mean, but the easy way would,we could just throw it on our
website.

SPEAKER_03 (01:02:24):
These people are so busy.
Yeah.
It's not sitting in front of

SPEAKER_01 (01:02:28):
them.
We're trying to bring it to you.
But we'll see.
I'm working on it.
I just wanted to let you knowthat that wasn't a false
promise.
I am working on that.

SPEAKER_03 (01:02:36):
Yeah.
When you said that, I'm like,you go because I have nothing to
do with that.

SPEAKER_01 (01:02:39):
Yeah.
I am working on it.
All right.
Well, okay.
We'll see you guys in two weeks.

SPEAKER_03 (01:02:43):
All right.
Thank you, guys.
All

SPEAKER_01 (01:02:44):
right.
And bye.

SPEAKER_00 (01:02:56):
Disclaimer, the views, opinions, and information
expressed in this podcast arethose of the individual hosts
and guests only, and do notnecessarily represent the
official positions or views ofany organizations or companies
with which we are affiliated.
While we strive to provideaccurate and up-to-date
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