April 1, 2025 • 50 mins
Ever wonder what happens when a potential client Googles your name after a meeting? The truth might shock you. In this eye-opening conversation with Jason Barnard, CEO of KaliCube and digital brand intelligence expert, we discover why your digital footprint matters more than ever in the age of AI.
Jason reveals his unconventional path from street musician to cartoon creator to digital marketing authority, showing how he's consistently seized and created opportunities throughout his career. But the most valuable insights come when he explains the fundamental shift happening in how people research businesses and individuals online. As Jason puts it, "Your brand is not what people say about you when you're not in the room—it's what Google and ChatGPT say about you when you're not in the room."
Through practical examples and memorable analogies, we learn how to build what Jason calls an "entity home"—a central hub for your digital brand that helps machines understand exactly who you are and why you matter. This hub-and-spoke model creates a cohesive digital ecosystem that works across all AI platforms, allowing you to control your brand narrative regardless of which technology dominates the landscape.
The stakes couldn't be higher. With conversion rates from AI recommendations potentially 100 times higher than traditional search results, mastering your digital brand isn't just about reputation—it's about business survival. Jason demonstrates how even small businesses can compete with industry giants by optimizing for the right audience and leveraging AI's increasing influence on buying decisions.
Ready to take control of your digital brand? Listen now to discover practical steps for managing how search engines and AI platforms represent you when you're not in the room. Your future opportunities may depend on it.
How to connect with Jason?
Website: https://kalicube.com/
Podcast: https://fastlanefounders.com/
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@Kalicube
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/kalicube
Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jasonmbarnard/
Twitter: https://x.com/TeamKalicube
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome everyone to the Firing the man podcast, a
show for anyone who wants to betheir own boss.
If you sit in a cubicle everyday and know you are capable of
more, then join us.
This show will help you build abusiness and grow your passive
income streams in just a fewshort hours per day.
And now your hosts, serialentrepreneurs David Shomer and
(00:22):
Ken Wilson.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Welcome everyone to the Firing the man podcast,
where we explore the journeys ofentrepreneurs who have fired
their bosses to take control oftheir destinies.
Today's guest is Jason Barnard,a serial entrepreneur,
bestselling author, keynotespeaker and CEO of CaliCube, a
digital branding consultancy.
For over 20 years in digitalmarketing, jason has built
(00:48):
successful companies inentertainment, music and tech.
He's a sought-after speaker onbrand management, ai-driven
search and knowledge of paneloptimization.
He also hosts FastLink Foundersand Legacy, a podcast on
balancing rapid growth withlasting success.
Join us as we dive into Jason'sjourney and insights on
(01:10):
personal brand intelligence anddigital branding.
Jason, really excited to haveyou as part of the show today.
Welcome.
Speaker 3 (01:16):
Thank you so much, david.
Absolutely brilliant.
I love the introduction, but Ithink we wrote it so obviously I
would.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
Yeah, very good.
Well, to start things off off,can you share a little bit about
your entrepreneurial journeyand, uh, how you in touch on
your your early music career?
Speaker 3 (01:35):
right, okay, brilliant.
Yeah, this is my third companycalicube k-a-l-i-c-u-b-e, and my
first company was wtpl musicMusic back in 1991, last century
, which sounds kind of slightlyscary and it was a record
company and music publisher.
And the reason I created thatcompany was because I really
(01:58):
wanted to be a musician and thecompany was there to allow me to
fulfill that dream with my band.
And it turned out to be aprofitable company.
We signed some great bandsalongside my own band and signed
deals with EMI and WarnerChapel and some other big music
industry titans.
(02:19):
And then I exited that, sold itto my business partner at the
time and moved on to edutainmentcartoons for children.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
Okay, and what was that?
Tell us about that part of yourlife.
Speaker 3 (02:35):
I founded that company to make cartoons because
myself and my ex-wife Veroniquedecided that we would make
cartoons because we thought itwould be fun, and my ex-wife
Veronique decided that we wouldmake cartoons because we thought
it would be fun.
The internet was really justgetting going in 1998, and we
were hugely successful veryquickly.
So we created a company andmade a TV series with ITV
(02:56):
International.
It was on Playhouse Disney.
Our website got a billion pageviews in 2007.
Another hugely successful,profitable company built from my
passion and my desire to dosomething specific.
The first was being a band andplay music in front of big
audiences.
(03:16):
The second was to make cartoonsand games and songs for kids.
I exited that company in 2011.
And it's still going.
It's still profitable.
My ex-business partner has that.
They're doing what they wantwith it and I segued into
CaliCube.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
All right, and tell us a little bit about CaliCube.
Speaker 3 (03:40):
CaliCube is a company that manages personal brand and
corporate brand in search andAI and we optimize it and make
sure that what Google andChatGPT say about you when
you're not in the room is whatyou want them to say about you
when you're not in the room.
Jeff Bezos said your brand iswhat people say about you when
you're not in the room, but he'swrong or partially wrong.
It's what Google and AI sayabout you when you're not in the
(04:02):
room.
So we manage that.
We can get Google and ChatGPTand Perplexity to say exactly
what we want.
So we help entrepreneurs inparticular manage their brand
narrative and amplify theirauthority and increase their
visibility in Google, chatgpt,perplexity, siri, alexa, copilot
(04:26):
, deepseek and any of the othermachines that come out.
It works every time.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
Outstanding, and I'm really excited to get into the
discussion on AI with you.
It seems to be more and morepresent every day.
But before we do that, I wantto talk about your firing the
man moment.
When was what did that looklike for you?
Well, I never had that moment.
Speaker 3 (04:53):
Okay, I left school and became unemployed in Leeds
in the North of England.
Okay, got a job sellingcomputers door to door on
commission only Gave that upbecause I wasn't making any
money and I would have made moremoney on unemployment benefit
(05:16):
Decided that actually workingwas a really bad thing to be
doing.
So I went back to university.
So I didn't have a boss theneither.
I just kind of hung around inLiverpool, played the Cavern
Club I was in a blues band andwe played the Cavern Club where
the Beatles famously played andthen left for Paris for love.
(05:38):
I fell in love with a Frenchwoman and turned up in Paris and
I was hoping that love wouldblossom in the city of love in
Paris.
And of course it all wenthorribly wrong.
She had a boyfriend.
She didn't want anything to dowith me.
I was a complete mistake and Ipitched around for work and got
part-time work as an Englishteacher.
(05:59):
Once again, no full-time job,no full-time boss.
And then some friends of minesaid do you want to join our
band and play in the street?
Uh, do you want to busk?
And I said oh, all right.
Then, yeah, brilliant,wonderful, great.
Uh, I'm a singer.
Because I've been a singer inthe band in liverpool and they
said, oh, we don't need a singer.
And I said, well, I play theguitar.
And they said we don't need aguitar player, we need a double
(06:21):
bass player.
If you can learn to play thedouble bass in 30 days, you're
in the band.
So I bought a double bass,learned to play it, got in the
band and busked in the street tomake a living and then turned
that band into a professionalband.
We recorded four albums, played660 gigs, we supported bob
dylan, amongst others, and itwas a career that made decent
(06:45):
money for everybody and Icreated a very profitable
company out of it, and that wasthe first time I had a proper
structure around any kind of job, but I'd never had a proper
boss.
Speaker 2 (06:58):
Okay, okay, I like it .
I really liked it.
That is a really a reallyunique story.
It seems like there were a lotof different points in your life
where you said yes to theopportunity ahead of you, which
I think is is really really neat.
Speaker 3 (07:12):
I think it's a little bit more than that is that the
opportunity wasn't there a lotof the time.
And I created the opportunity.
So the band existed and theysaid do you want to join our
band?
So that was an opportunity Iseized and I was willing to put
my last sense into buying adouble bass that I couldn't play
(07:33):
and I learned and I was notvery good, but I was good enough
to play in the street with thisband and then I created the
opportunity of turningprofessional.
I created the opportunity torelease records and then for the
cartoon characters, I createdthe opportunity by being very
(07:54):
insistent on creating a websiteand building out from there and
it turned out to be verysuccessful and built a company
around the website that was thenable to do the TV series once
again with Disney and ITVInternational and Radio Canada
Wow and it aired in 25 countries.
So I would say my career is alot of creating opportunities
(08:21):
that I then seize.
No-transcript.
I've seized the opportunitiesand I've paid the price and I've
(08:44):
suffered and I've worked andI've struggled like everybody
else, and I think the one thingrunning through it all is I
never give up absolutely,absolutely.
Speaker 2 (09:15):
No, that definitely is a aware of AI and really feel
the effect of oh, it's here andit's here to stay the effect of
, oh, it's here and it's here tostay.
Speaker 3 (09:30):
Well, I think, like everybody else, I was aware of
it and it kind of leaped out atme when ChatGPT suddenly hit the
world in 2023.
But what I find reallyinteresting is I was actually
already ready for AI in 2015.
And I didn't know it.
And it's one of these thingswhere you look back and you
think, well, if AI had come ontothe scene and this whole thing
(09:52):
had been happening in 2015, Iwas already ready, because the
process we use at CaliCube andthe system that I created was
already the foundation of whatwe're doing today and it isn't
significantly different todaythan it was in 2015.
And the reason I startedCuddyCube and the reason I
(10:13):
invented this whole process ofcontrolling your brand narrative
in Google and now AI is becausewhen I pivoted from cartoons
and being the voiceover artistfor a cartoon blue dog to
digital marketing, I would gointo meetings with potential
clients and I would say, oh,look, I can do your digital
(10:34):
marketing.
I've had all the success withBuwa and Koala Up to 10,.
My company had a billion paidviews in 2007.
I can do the same for you andthey would go brilliant.
Yeah, we're on board.
Absolutely no problem.
You're obviously a greatdigital marketing.
You know what you're talkingabout.
You've mastered google.
Brilliant.
Walk out the room, leave mybusiness card, don't sign the
deal, because they googled me assoon as I walked out the door
(10:58):
and my business card was thrownin the bin.
And the result on?
Google said Jason Barnard is acartoon blue dog.
Voiceover artist.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (11:07):
And I thought oh.
I have to change that, becausethat's going to stop me losing
all these hundreds of thousandsof dollars in deals that I'm
leaving on the table, and so ittook me about a year to figure
it all out, got it all changedand, of course, now all the
people sign the deals.
They search my name and I looklike an incredibly impressive
entrepreneur, digital marketer,world authority and digital
brand intelligence and all therest of it Because I've
(11:31):
manipulated Google and AI to saywhat I want it to say and to
focus on what I want it to focuson, which is Jason Barnard is
the world authority on digitalbrand intelligence and an
entrepreneur.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
I can speak to this firsthand, as I was prepping for
this interview.
When I search your name, youare an authority in the space,
and so what you're doing isworking.
What are some things that youthink business owners don't
think about when it comes tothis topic?
Speaker 3 (12:13):
There are lots of things they don't think about.
Number one they don't think, oh, as soon as I walk out of this
room or on this Zoom call, thatperson's Googling my name or
asking chat GPT.
Yeah, googling my name orasking chat gpt.
Yeah, I was talking to somebodywho does due diligence in the
financial sector and they said,well, low level, surface level
due diligence, yes, we look atgoogle.
Yes, we look at chat gpt.
(12:33):
Then we dig deep, but if youdon't pass that first surface
test, you don't even get intothe game.
And people don't think aboutthat.
If I'm thinking about doingbusiness with you, I will
research you.
How I research you is my ownaffair, but most people will
look at Google, they'll look atLinkedIn.
They may be asked to chat GPT.
Okay, if I'm looking forpotential partners or speakers
(12:56):
for a conference who are thebest speakers in the world about
knowledge panels, compilerlists, please chat GPT.
That's a reasonable thing thatpeople are starting to do, maybe
not extensively, but certainlymore or more, because it saves
them the research, and that'sthe point.
Google search is all aboutsearch.
I know what I'm looking for andI can sort through the results.
(13:17):
Chat gpt, google gemini,copilot, papaxi is research
where we're saying to them gomake the search, summarize what
you found so that I don't haveto bother.
It saves me a lot of time.
So research versus search isthe big key difference there
that people don't really thinkabout and so they don't think my
partners or my businesspartners and prospects are
(13:40):
Googling my name before they dobusiness with me.
They don't think people areresearching using these machines
and I need to be present whensomebody's researching my niche
topic and they don't think I cancontrol that.
Speaker 2 (13:58):
Yeah, yeah, as you've been talking about this, I've
been thinking of some of my ownpersonal chat GPT searches
recently and they have beencompiled a top 10 list of
companies who insert whateverI'm looking for, and so how can
companies control that?
Speaker 3 (14:17):
Oh well, we do that at Catecube, it's our specialist
superpower, super power.
But one of the things I have atrouble with is I talk to people
and I say, have you thoughtabout people googling your name
or researching on chat, gpt orcompiling lists of top 10
companies or people to work with?
And they go oh no, I haven't.
Oh yeah, you're right.
And then I say, have youthought about whether or not you
(14:38):
can control it?
And they go well, no, I can't,because google and chat gpt
figure it it out.
And you're saying, well, yes,but why don't you proactively
get involved to increase yourchances of being included in
those lists and to make surethey're giving your brand
narrative when somebody'sresearching you, so that what
you're saying to them in theroom is the same thing that
(14:59):
ChatGPT and Google are saying tothem when you're not in the
room.
Right, and it blows people'sminds to the extent that they
can't even get their head aroundthe idea that they might want
to pay me or my company to helpthem with that.
Okay, the funnel is top tobottom of the funnel is very
quick, because I'm presenting aproblem to people that they
(15:19):
haven't even thought about and asolution that they didn't even
begin to imagine existed.
The sale at the bottom of thefunnel is very difficult.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
Yeah, I'm having one of those aha moments as I talk
to you.
Speaker 3 (15:33):
I get this all the time and then I say, do you want
to buy my service?
I go no, it's too early, myhead's hurting.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
Yeah, if you Google my name, I think my LinkedIn
page comes up and maybe some oldnewspaper articles, but I've
never felt like there wassomething that I could do to
influence what that result is.
And yeah, that's really good,and definitely on branding too.
Speaker 3 (15:57):
Yeah, for corporate brands it's less of a problem
because names aren't soambiguous, but corporate names,
especially in geo regions.
But I'll give you an example.
My name, jason Barnard, isrelatively not too common, but
there are 3,000 Jason Barnardsin the world competing with me
for that top spot and all theother spots.
You search my name on GoogleJason Barnard
(16:18):
J-A-S-O-N-B-A-R-N-A-R-D.
I'm the only one in the worldwho exists as far as Google is
concerned, will only see me.
That's because I'veintentionally made that happen.
If you ask Chuck GP2, who isJason Barnard?
It won't say well, which oneare you talking about?
It will say here's JasonBarnard, world leading expert in
digital brand management, blah,blah, blah, and give you an 800
(16:43):
word essay.
And that is both understandingand dominance in terms of
probability that somebody islooking for me.
I've convinced these machinesthat I'm the most famous Jason
Barnard in the world and that'sactually not true.
Speaker 2 (16:57):
Interesting, very interesting.
So what would be some waysthere's a lot of small business
owners listening.
So what would be some ways youknow there's a lot of small
business owners listening, whatwould be some ways that you know
small businesses could competewith some of these larger brands
that seemingly have a muchlarger presence online?
Speaker 3 (17:20):
Brand, brand, brand.
And you're not going to competein terms of getting your brand
in front of everybody in theentire universe, because the big
brands have already done that.
What you can do is compete byidentifying the people who are
going to be interested inworking with you, who have got
the mindset to work with asmaller company rather than a
(17:41):
bigger company.
Get your brand in front of them, make sure that your brand pops
up everywhere they are hangingout online, naturally, to the
point to which they then Googleor chat GPT your brand name, and
make sure that brand narrativeabsolutely nails it, because the
moment they search your brandname on Google or chat GPT,
(18:02):
they're basically asking chat,gpt and Google.
Do you recommend this supplier?
Yeah, and if they say, in mycase, jason Barnard is a world
renowned expert in digital brandmanagement or Caddy Cube is a
premium digital marketingconsultancy for entrepreneurs
and their corporations, that's arecommendation and it's the
(18:25):
tipping point.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
Yeah, yeah, if you think of it through the lens of
conversion rate optimization fora physical products brand on,
if you're wanting to do speakingor wanting to really do
anything, establish yourself asan authority, that's your
conversion.
Speaker 3 (18:44):
like the last part, uh, until you convert a sale,
yeah and I find that thevocabulary that chat, gpt,
google, gemini, google learnabout.
If you've tried it, it'sbrilliant.
It's the chat gpt killer.
If you haven't tried it, try it.
Google, learn about the trickthat we managed to pull off that
(19:06):
nobody else in the world canpull off in an intentional
manner.
That we do is to get themachines to use superlatives
when they're talking about you.
World-recognized expert Okay,visionary Innovator One of the
(19:27):
things you left out of my bio atthe beginning.
I'm a serial entrepreneur,best-selling author, um, a
renowned speaker and uh,innovator.
Award-winning innovator yeah,and if you ask these machines
(19:49):
who I am, it will useaward-winning, it will use
serial, it will use best-sellingbecause I have educated it to
use those words, both through myown words, but also by
insisting that people whowelcome me on my podcast, for
example, use those words too,because that's third party
(20:09):
corroboration and I saidjokingly I like that because I
wrote it, but if I can get youto say it, you're vouching for
it, you're confirming it and youare independent of me.
Therefore, that's a hugepositive signal for Google.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
That's interesting.
Yeah, I've literallyexperienced this first person as
I was writing the intro, and sothat's very me, that's very me.
Speaker 3 (20:37):
It's actually creating your own truth.
Obviously, if you're're lying,it's going to be really
difficult to do, but if you'retelling the truth and you can
back it up, that repetition issuper important.
Um, and the award-winninginnovator is an interesting one
because I won Davie Awards,which are web awards for the
(21:01):
innovative website I built in2007.
The second one is actually forsongwriting, but that doesn't
matter.
I got two Davie Awards and I'man innovator.
Put the two together.
Award-winning innovator.
Bob's your uncle, yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:18):
Award-winning innovator Bob's your uncle, yeah
, so what are your thoughts onthe future of business and AI?
There seems to be two camps ofpeople.
There seem to be a camp ofpeople that are pretty nervous
about it and there seem to be agroup of entrepreneurs that are
very excited about it and can'tstop talking about it.
Have you witnessed, before weget into the future, have you
(21:41):
witnessed kind of this division?
Speaker 3 (21:45):
Yeah, when I talk to prospects, there are two, as you
said, camps, one of which isI'll kick that down the road
because I don't want to look atit and it's fear and it's too
much work and I don't understand.
And if I don't look at it itmight go away.
And for anybody who thinks thatexplicitly or implicitly,
(22:10):
forget it.
It's not going away, it's hereto stay.
And then the other camp issaying I'm really interested.
I can see that how I'mrepresented by AI in the future
is going to be a huge questionthat I need to answer and a
problem I need to solve, becausehow AI represents me as an
entrepreneur is going to definehow well I do business today, as
(22:35):
people research me in order todo business the due diligence,
for example.
It will facilitate my careerwhen I pivot, because I'll be
more credible and I can take allof my personal brand
credibility with me and it'sgoing to define my legacy.
I was talking to somebody who's80, who's coming to the end of
their career, and they weresaying well, actually the only
(22:55):
part I'm interested in is thelegacy part, because I want my
children and my grandchildrenand my great-grandchildren to
remember me fondly and everybodyaround them when they're
researching me, to see a verypositive message about me here
(23:22):
to stay, that it's going to getmore and more powerful, and that
what AI is saying about youwhen you're not in the room is
going to be an existential,fundamental, foundational
question for all of us and anexistential problem for all of
us that we need to solve.
They're exactly the people wecan talk to and we can help.
So from what I've learned is Iused to try to convince
everybody.
(23:42):
Now I've stopped.
If if you think ai is goingaway or you think you can kick
this can down the road, go aheadif you can see that today it's
already making a difference andtomorrow that difference is
simply going to be exaggeratedand amplified.
Come and work with us, becausewe're the only company in the
(24:05):
world who has the experience,the knowledge, the tech and the
data to control these machinesin terms of what they're saying
about you.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
Very interesting, as we've been talking.
One thing that has come up isso I own physical products
brands and have been veryfocused on building those brands
which I someday hope to sell,and probably neglecting the
personal brand side of things.
(24:33):
And so you know, beyond aLinkedIn page and I guess I have
a podcast but what are someways that if people listening
are thinking, yeah, I'm alsoprobably neglecting my personal
brand, what are a couple of wayspeople can step up their game
in that department?
Speaker 3 (24:54):
Well, the first thing is build your own website.
Okay, it can be two pages, itcan be one page, for that matter
, it doesn't matter.
But all of these machines arelooking for what john muller
from google calls the point ofreconciliation.
I call it the entity home.
It's where does this personlive online that they control,
(25:15):
that I can look to or look atfor their version of the facts
and their version of their brandnarrative.
If I can find that as a machinealgorithm, I've then got the
foundational story in one piecethat I can then analyze and
understand.
Then I can go around the weband I can check that it's all
true, because what you haveright now is a broken plate.
(25:39):
I use that analogy a lot is youdon't have that central hub,
your website, the point ofreconciliation, your story is
fragmented all around the weband the machine is trying to
pull all these pieces togetherand turn it into the completed
puzzle, but it doesn't haveanything to compare it to.
So it's explicitly looking forthat website that gives it the
(25:59):
completed puzzle and then it cansay okay, all these pieces
together mean that that puzzlethat he's completed for me, on
that entity home point ofreconciliation, is true and I
can believe it.
What then happens is the longeryou have that website in place,
the longer you prove yourselfto be honest about your
(26:21):
representation of yourself andthe more you get that
corroboration to support whatyou're saying on your own
website, support your brandnarrative, your story, your
credibility, your authority,your expression of who you are
and why you're important or whyyou're trustworthy.
The longer you can keep thatall in place in a very, very,
very firm puzzle piece, as itwere, the more it will believe
(26:46):
anything you tell it.
Speaker 2 (26:48):
Interesting.
That's very interesting.
I had people on the podcastwho've had their own websites
firstnamelastnamecom.
So I have actually looked fordavidschilmercom and it's taken
Any pro tips on that that first,you know, taking that first
(27:09):
step with a domain.
Speaker 3 (27:12):
Yeah, the com doesn't really matter, you can use a
different one.
Don't link it to your job.
So don't take jasonblaner dotum marketing, because I might
pivot my career.
That would be a pity.
But dot info is fine, dot orgis fine, dot net is fine, dot
(27:32):
xyz is fine um.
If you can't find any of those,you can always add your middle
initial, jasonmbarnardcom wouldbe good.
Jason Martin Barnard, my middlename is fine.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
So all of those are good.
Speaker 3 (27:45):
Okay, Very good.
One really smart piece ofadvice don't use a hyphen.
Speaker 2 (27:53):
Okay, I agree, but can you explain why?
Speaker 3 (27:58):
Because it confuses the machine and it's also
difficult to type on a mobiledevice.
It's a pain in the yes yeah.
So from a human, practicalperspective, it's a pain and for
the machine it createsconfusion.
Speaker 2 (28:14):
That's very interesting, okay, well, this
has been really insightful andprobably I would imagine there's
a lot of listeners that arehaving the same aha moment as I
had on on this.
Um, any other other things youthink are worth discussing on
this topic?
Speaker 3 (28:34):
well, taking control of your personal brand or your
corporate brand or even yourproduct.
You were were mentioningproducts.
This works for all of them.
It doesn't matter what you'retalking about.
Google and AI want tounderstand the whole world.
They want to understandeverything.
And if you look at Wikipedia,you think okay, wikipedia, it
uses Wikipedia, which is fine.
Six million articles, so sixmillion things.
(28:56):
Google's knowledge graph has 54billion things in it, so it's
well over 10,000 times bigger.
Wikipedia doesn't matter.
Wikipedia was used to train themachine 10 years ago.
When you've got 6 millionversus 54 billion, you can see
that the machine is well beyondWikipedia.
(29:17):
So don't worry about Wikipedia,don't worry about being famous.
Everybody can do this.
You can do this at home, asthey say on the TV, on kids'
shows, and I advise you to do it.
And it's all about the very,very simple entity home.
We can use a hub-spoken-wheelmodel explanation.
(29:37):
The entity home is the hub.
It's the control hub for yourpersonal brand or your corporate
brand.
The wheel is all of theinformation about you around the
web and the spokes are thelinks between the two.
So you create your hub, youtell your story, you tell all of
the details of your story andyour authority on why you should
(29:59):
be trusted on your own website.
You big yourself up.
You make sure that all of thedetails of your story and your
authority and why you should betrusted on your own website you
big yourself up.
You make sure that all of theinformation around the web and
that wheel corroborates whatyou're saying as much as
possible from third-partysources like yourself for me,
but also my own website, my ownsocial media profiles, my own
Medium channel, my own YouTubechannel, my own Forbes profile,
(30:21):
and then link from the entityhome, the hub, my own Medium
channel, my own YouTube channel,my own Forbes profile, and then
link from the entity home, thehub, the point of reconciliation
, out to all of these differentresources that support what
you're saying and back, when youcan, from those resources to
the entity home and waitInteresting, and the machine
will go to your entity home, outto the resource, back out to
(30:42):
the resource, back out to theresource, and that repetition
will get it to understand.
It takes time, machines don'tdigest immediately, so you need
to be patient and as yourdigital ecosystem changes and
your life changes, you need toupdate everything all the time
Because if you let, for example,somebody published a book they
(31:04):
didn't tell us, and so theypublished the book over here.
But we didn't tell Google andAI that they'd published the
book.
So Google and AI just thoughtit was a different person, so
they created another person intheir little brain.
So all of the equity that theperson was hoping to get out of
the book was lost because it wasapplied to another person with
(31:24):
that same name in the, in the,in the, in the machine's brain.
So what they actually did wassplit their equity, and you've
got to be really careful aboutthat.
You have to make sure that themachines understand that all
these glorious things thatyou've done are indeed you, yeah
, and so you need to keep ahandle on it over time, and
that's what people forget ordon't want to look at, and it
(31:46):
takes a lot of effort and a lotof time, a lot of resources and,
most of all, consistency, whichis something that most human
beings are very bad at.
So we've built caliq pro.
The machine and my team areabsolutely perfect at
consistency, maintaining thisover time and updating every
time anything changes.
So the machines are never inany doubt, because as soon as
(32:08):
they have doubt, they freak outand they go oh, I'm not sure.
They don't say anything ifthey're sure.
That's why I dominate jasonbarnard as a search result,
because they're so sure about methat they're super confident
and they go.
This is jason barnard as asearch result, because they're
so sure about me that they'resuper confident and they go.
This is jason barnard, isn't hewonderful?
And all the other jasonbarnards in the world get
forgotten, forgotten because themachines are so confident what
(32:32):
they've got to say about me.
And I've convinced them that Iam incredibly authoritative,
credible and indeed famouswithout actually being famous.
I am authoritative, incredible,credible and indeed famous
without actually being famous.
I am authoritative and crediblewithin my niche, but I've
convinced them that I'm muchmore famous than I truly am.
We have an AI analysis of how apersonal brand is perceived by
AI.
(32:53):
That we do at Catecube, and ifyou want one, come along to the
catecubecom K-A-L-I-C-U-Bcomwebsite and ask for one, and the
benchmarks we use are myselfand Richard Branson.
Okay, and I'm surprisinglyclose to Richard Branson in
terms of how these machinesunderstand and appreciate my
(33:16):
famousness and my credibility.
Wow, because I'm actuallymaking an effort and I've been
making an effort for 12 years,so I've managed to push myself
up to not quite the same levelas Richard Branson, but not very
far away, sure, and obviouslyI'm not at his level, absolutely
.
I don't pretend that I am, butthe machines are happy.
Speaker 2 (33:37):
Yeah, yeah, well, well, that's.
That's a really, uh reallyinteresting thing to think about
.
One thing that you've mentionedis consistency, and do you mean
word for word or do you meanjust same general themes?
Speaker 3 (33:55):
that's a great question, because it used to be
word for word when I startedthis.
Uh, it was repetition, and theSEOs in the world would get
really annoyed with me because Iwas repeating the same thing,
I'd go duplicate content.
It's really difficult wheneverybody's telling you you're
being stupid, to sit there andthink, well, actually, no, I'm
being smart, it's just not whatyou expect and it's not what
(34:18):
makes sense to you.
And I agree, duplicate contentin SEO is a problem, but it's
not when you're trying toeducate a machine.
Yeah, and so duplicate contentsaying the same thing, exactly
the same thing across yourentire digital footprint does
work, but now the machines aresmarter so you don't need to,
which means you can adapt yourmessage to the audience on
(34:39):
Twitter, on LinkedIn, on YouTube, on Medium, on Forbes, because
that's what those platformsdemand and, at the end of the
day, we're still trying toconvince people.
So the machines are smartenough and you need to just
focus on the things that areimportant to you and are
relevant to the people on thatplatform and then join the
pieces together on your centralwebsite hub.
(35:00):
That's how you make sense of itto the machine.
If you do that intelligently,you win, and I'd love to tell
you one more thing.
Whatever happens next doesn'tmatter.
This system will work, and anexample would be DeepSeek came
(35:20):
out, first thing I'd do wasdownload it, say who is Jason
Barnard.
It answered perfect.
I hadn't explicitly worked onDeepSeek, but it already
answered perfectly.
Chachipt, as soon as it cameout, asked it who is Jason
Barnard, what is CaliCube?
Answered perfectly.
Copilot same, gemini, same.
Google LearnAbout, samePerplexity same.
(35:42):
It works every time because allof these machines use the same
data source, the web.
They're all looking tounderstand the world and find
the best solution to the problemthat their user is expressing,
and they're all based on threetechnologies.
(36:03):
Large language model chatbots,like ChatGPT was at the start,
search results and knowledgegraphs.
So the large language modelchatbot is what drives ChatGPT,
but they've now added searchresults, but they don't have a
knowledge graph.
Google Gemini is a largelanguage model chatbot with some
(36:25):
search results, but not as manyas chatGPT.
Perplexity is a large languagemodel with a lot of search
results and that's whyperplexity is so good in real
time.
Google LearnAbout is a largelanguage model chatbot, search
results and a knowledge graph,which is a machine-readable
encyclopedia like Wikipedia, but10,000 times bigger.
(36:48):
All mixed together and that isthe ChatGP T-Killer, because it
uses all three technologies.
It says I can converse with theperson I'm talking to using the
LLM chatbot, I can give themreal-time information using the
search results and I can factcheck using my knowledge graph,
my encyclopedia.
That is where we're going andthe only question now is what is
(37:10):
the mix of those threetechnologies in any one of the
assistive or answer enginessomebody's using?
And all three technologies, allthree of those platforms use
the same data source, the web,and the same system for
collecting that information, thesame system for passing that
information.
And if you can master yourdigital footprint from A to Z
using that central hub website,you've won the game and it
(37:33):
doesn't matter who wins.
Speaker 2 (37:35):
I love it.
I love it.
Curious when you which searchengine or what AI tool do you
use?
And obviously the businessyou're in.
You probably are on all of them, but what is your favorite
currently?
Speaker 3 (37:49):
Right.
Well, in CaliCube Pro, we'vegot 3 billion data points
collected from Google and AIover the last 10 years, and so
we obviously collect from Bing,we collect from Google, we
collect from ChatGPT, we collectfrom Claude, we collect from
Perplexity and from gemini.
So we're collecting from all ofthem because we need to
understand all of them.
I really like um gemini 1.5deep research, okay, which came
(38:19):
out recently, and I've starteddoing due diligence on people
just for fun.
And it's basically it's almosta gentile Is it sets out its
plan of how it's going to do duediligence on somebody and then
does it and it researches like50 websites and then spits out
(38:42):
an answer using the knowledgegraph, the websites and the
large language model, and it'sbeautiful.
And I've also tried, you know,compile me a list of who I
should invite to speak at myconference about knowledge
panels, and of course, jasonBarnard comes out on top because
that's my specialist topic, andit comes up with the plan.
(39:03):
It says here's what I'm goingto do one, two, three, four,
five, six, seven, eight.
Do you agree?
Yes, I agree.
And then it does the researchand it comes back with the list
and when you look at it youthink okay, well, in a year's
time, who's going to do theresearch themselves?
I'm not.
Yeah, I wouldn't bother.
So then if if I'm hoping tospeak at a conference about
(39:24):
knowledge panels on Google, Ihave zero chance in a couple of
years if I don't know theorganizer.
Yeah, yeah, it's Google and AIwho are going to decide whether
or not I speak at theseconferences if I don't know the
organizer.
So human relationships remainincredibly important, but they
may well be your only hope inthe future.
Speaker 2 (39:48):
Yeah, wow, I've never thought about that.
You're absolutely right.
Speaker 3 (39:54):
Yeah, that goes for purchasing.
That goes for B2B business.
It goes for who should I investin?
I mean, I don't know how far itwill go, how much people will
trust these machines, butcertainly what we're doing with
ChatGPT and what we trustChatGPT to do for us today is
significantly evolved from whatwe were messing around with at
(40:15):
the start.
Speaker 2 (40:17):
Yes, absolutely, and I think everyone's usage of it
has gone up.
I know the number of times thatI engage with ChatGPT.
Every day has been like ahockey stick recently and I just
keep finding more and more waysto use it and plug it into my
life, and it's outstanding.
Speaker 3 (40:40):
And if you look at that as well, you think about it
.
Chatgpt is having aconversation with you or you're
having a conversation withChatGPT and, although you are
the person driving theconversation, chatgpt or Google
Gemini participate in the waythe conversation evolves because
they offer you follow-upquestions.
Google LearnAbout offerscontacts.
(41:03):
If you say who is Jason Barnard, it will offer at the side.
Do you want to look atBrandSupps?
Do you want to look atKnowledge Panels?
Do you want to look at hiscareer as an entrepreneur?
Do you want to look at CaliCube?
It's offering me differentoptions that I might not have
thought of.
So it's a conversation betweenme and the machine and, as a
business or a business owner oran expert or somebody who wants
(41:23):
to get out there with theirpersonal brand, you want the
machine to introduce you to theconversation spontaneously,
because that's where you'regoing to hit your new market.
That's where you're going tohit people who didn't know about
you previously, and when theydo introduce you, they're
implicitly recommending you.
Wow.
Speaker 2 (41:43):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (41:47):
This is, and they're, the biggest influences in the
world.
Yeah, if I'm on youtube andI've got a million followers,
I'm peanuts compared to chat,gpt or google, who have billions
of users asking trillions ofquestions to a machine that they
trust to provide them with thesolution to their problem every
single day.
Speaker 2 (42:07):
You're right, you're right.
That totally changes the way.
Yeah, wow.
Speaker 3 (42:14):
Isn't it cool.
I like you.
You're great Because you keepgoing, wow, wow, you're right,
I'm just thinking of.
Speaker 2 (42:20):
there are when you, when I I'll just share with you
my experiences from thisinterview is when I have people
on on as guests.
There's a lot of generalbusiness advice where it's like,
oh, I've thought about that,but maybe not that angle.
This introduces a completelydifferent topic that I've never
thought about and I've had about10 aha moments and you're're
(42:44):
like, yeah, to compareespecially what you just said
about like comparing a YouTuberwith a million followers I can
tell you in physical products, aYouTuber with a million
followers can print money basedon their authority if they have
a product that they're selling.
But I've never thought of itthrough the context of search
(43:05):
engines and so, yeah, this hasbeen.
Speaker 3 (43:09):
Well, I think the thing about a search engine is
it's not an influencer, it's ananswerer of questions or a
provider of possibilities,whereas a chat, gpt or a Gemini,
one of these assistive oranswer engines, is actually
guiding people down the funnel,and that's Fabrice Canel from
Bing who told me that's whatthey were doing with Copilot.
(43:30):
The idea of Copilot is to guidesomebody down the funnel for
what they call the perfect click.
I research, I ask forrecommendations, I ask which one
I should choose.
I get the click.
I ask which one I should choose, I get the click, I buy.
And the proof here is a clientof ours told us that their
conversion rate from Googlesearch was 0.03%.
(43:54):
Their conversion rate fromChatGPT is 3%.
Wow, that's the perfect click.
Well, it's not perfect becauseit's only three percent, but
it's much more perfect than thegoogle click absolutely,
absolutely.
Speaker 2 (44:09):
and there's a there's .
I have noticed the more Iengage with chat gpt, the more I
trust it.
Yes, it's like a buddy thatnever lets you down, um, and and
the more it doesn't let youdown, the more you trust it.
And so, whereas with theinfluencer there are, sometimes
I will watch with a discerningeye, yeah, where I may not agree
(44:31):
with what they have to say ortheir opinion, but I do engage
it Right.
Speaker 3 (44:37):
Yeah, no, sorry, and you just said the word opinion.
Yeah, chat GPT has an opinion,but we don't think of it.
But the opinion it has is whatI put in its brain.
It's saying Jason Barnard is aworld-renowned expert in digital
brand management, or the worldauthority on digital brand
intelligence, because I told itto say that.
Yeah, but it's expressing as ahuman being what we're seeing is
(45:00):
an opinion.
I'm an expert and it believesme to be an expert.
So, although it doesn't have anopinion, technically speaking,
that's what we perceive as humanbeings and it's as good as yeah
.
Speaker 2 (45:15):
Yeah, wow, well, this has been an outstanding
interview, jason.
Before we close out the show,we have something called the
fire round.
It's four questions.
We ask the guest at the end ofthe show Are you ready for the
fire round?
I am ready for the fire round,all right.
What with your musicalbackground?
(45:35):
What's your favorite record?
The Clash London Calling Verynice.
What are your hobbies?
Speaker 3 (45:42):
Singing and playing double bass in the band in my
local village but it's kind of ahobby, but it's actually a
second job because we playprofessional gigs around here.
I've actually got a jazz clubopposite where I was playing two
weeks ago.
Speaker 2 (45:58):
Cool, very nice.
What is one thing you do notmiss about working for the man?
I don't know, I never workedfor the man, that's right.
That's right, you're a unicorn,as we like to call them.
Very good and final questionwhat do you think sets apart
successful entrepreneurs fromthose who give up, fail or never
(46:21):
get started?
Speaker 3 (46:27):
entrepreneurs from those who give up, fail or never
get started.
Um, determination is probablythe one thing that I would.
I see in myself that has madeall the difference in the world.
Um, my, the other thing that Ifound is when I'm doing
something like the music companyor the global edutainment
company I like saying that orCaliTube is when I go to bed in
(46:47):
the evening.
I'm like a small child.
I can't wait to wake up in themorning and start again and get
going with that.
So that enthusiasm withdetermination and confidence are
the three things I think setpeople apart, or me at least,
that's my experience, that's areally good answer.
Speaker 2 (47:08):
Now, jason, if people are interested in getting in
touch with you or working withCaliCube, what is the best way?
Google me, very nice.
And for those tuning in onaudio, he is holding up a QR
code.
And for those of you tuning inon on video, you can see this.
(47:28):
Brilliant.
I can tell you that this isepisode 267.
We've never had someone withtheir own qr code.
Speaker 3 (47:34):
I absolutely love it so you can google me.
Or you can ask chat gpt wherecan I connect with jason?
What can he offer me?
Uh, where shall I follow him?
Um, absolutely fine, you ask itwhatever you want and it will
answer.
Oh, and I'll give you one lastthing.
That's really cool.
(47:54):
If you ask chatchpt, tell meabout jason barnard as a
musician, it answers somethingquite unexpected.
It says jason barnard isprincipally known as a digital
brand expert.
That's what he does today withcali cube.
However, if you really want toknow about his music career here
(48:17):
it is.
So what it does is start bycorrecting you that you're
looking for the wrong aspect ofme.
According to my brand narrativetoday, that's wow, that is
strong.
Speaker 2 (48:28):
That is strong.
Well, I would encourageeverybody either scan that QR
code or type in Jason's name andinto chat GPT and see what you
find.
But, jason, this has been agreat interview.
Thank you for your time todayand looking forward to staying
in touch.
Thank you, that was brilliant.
This has been a great interview.
Thank you for your time todayand looking forward to staying
in touch.
Thank you, that was brilliantDavid.
Speaker 3 (48:47):
I really enjoyed it.
Welcome everyone to the Firing the man podcast, a
show for anyone who wants to betheir own boss.
If you sit in a cubicle everyday and know you are capable of
more, then join us.
This show will help you build abusiness and grow your passive
income streams in just a fewshort hours per day.
And now your hosts, serialentrepreneurs David Shomer and
(00:22):
Ken Wilson.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Welcome everyone to the Firing the man podcast,
where we explore the journeys ofentrepreneurs who have fired
their bosses to take control oftheir destinies.
Today's guest is Jason Barnard,a serial entrepreneur,
bestselling author, keynotespeaker and CEO of CaliCube, a
digital branding consultancy.
For over 20 years in digitalmarketing, jason has built
(00:48):
successful companies inentertainment, music and tech.
He's a sought-after speaker onbrand management, ai-driven
search and knowledge of paneloptimization.
He also hosts FastLink Foundersand Legacy, a podcast on
balancing rapid growth withlasting success.
Join us as we dive into Jason'sjourney and insights on
(01:10):
personal brand intelligence anddigital branding.
Jason, really excited to haveyou as part of the show today.
Welcome.
Speaker 3 (01:16):
Thank you so much, david.
Absolutely brilliant.
I love the introduction, but Ithink we wrote it so obviously I
would.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
Yeah, very good.
Well, to start things off off,can you share a little bit about
your entrepreneurial journeyand, uh, how you in touch on
your your early music career?
Speaker 3 (01:35):
right, okay, brilliant.
Yeah, this is my third companycalicube k-a-l-i-c-u-b-e, and my
first company was wtpl musicMusic back in 1991, last century
, which sounds kind of slightlyscary and it was a record
company and music publisher.
And the reason I created thatcompany was because I really
(01:58):
wanted to be a musician and thecompany was there to allow me to
fulfill that dream with my band.
And it turned out to be aprofitable company.
We signed some great bandsalongside my own band and signed
deals with EMI and WarnerChapel and some other big music
industry titans.
(02:19):
And then I exited that, sold itto my business partner at the
time and moved on to edutainmentcartoons for children.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
Okay, and what was that?
Tell us about that part of yourlife.
Speaker 3 (02:35):
I founded that company to make cartoons because
myself and my ex-wife Veroniquedecided that we would make
cartoons because we thought itwould be fun, and my ex-wife
Veronique decided that we wouldmake cartoons because we thought
it would be fun.
The internet was really justgetting going in 1998, and we
were hugely successful veryquickly.
So we created a company andmade a TV series with ITV
(02:56):
International.
It was on Playhouse Disney.
Our website got a billion pageviews in 2007.
Another hugely successful,profitable company built from my
passion and my desire to dosomething specific.
The first was being a band andplay music in front of big
audiences.
(03:16):
The second was to make cartoonsand games and songs for kids.
I exited that company in 2011.
And it's still going.
It's still profitable.
My ex-business partner has that.
They're doing what they wantwith it and I segued into
CaliCube.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
All right, and tell us a little bit about CaliCube.
Speaker 3 (03:40):
CaliCube is a company that manages personal brand and
corporate brand in search andAI and we optimize it and make
sure that what Google andChatGPT say about you when
you're not in the room is whatyou want them to say about you
when you're not in the room.
Jeff Bezos said your brand iswhat people say about you when
you're not in the room, but he'swrong or partially wrong.
It's what Google and AI sayabout you when you're not in the
(04:02):
room.
So we manage that.
We can get Google and ChatGPTand Perplexity to say exactly
what we want.
So we help entrepreneurs inparticular manage their brand
narrative and amplify theirauthority and increase their
visibility in Google, chatgpt,perplexity, siri, alexa, copilot
(04:26):
, deepseek and any of the othermachines that come out.
It works every time.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
Outstanding, and I'm really excited to get into the
discussion on AI with you.
It seems to be more and morepresent every day.
But before we do that, I wantto talk about your firing the
man moment.
When was what did that looklike for you?
Well, I never had that moment.
Speaker 3 (04:53):
Okay, I left school and became unemployed in Leeds
in the North of England.
Okay, got a job sellingcomputers door to door on
commission only Gave that upbecause I wasn't making any
money and I would have made moremoney on unemployment benefit
(05:16):
Decided that actually workingwas a really bad thing to be
doing.
So I went back to university.
So I didn't have a boss theneither.
I just kind of hung around inLiverpool, played the Cavern
Club I was in a blues band andwe played the Cavern Club where
the Beatles famously played andthen left for Paris for love.
(05:38):
I fell in love with a Frenchwoman and turned up in Paris and
I was hoping that love wouldblossom in the city of love in
Paris.
And of course it all wenthorribly wrong.
She had a boyfriend.
She didn't want anything to dowith me.
I was a complete mistake and Ipitched around for work and got
part-time work as an Englishteacher.
(05:59):
Once again, no full-time job,no full-time boss.
And then some friends of minesaid do you want to join our
band and play in the street?
Uh, do you want to busk?
And I said oh, all right.
Then, yeah, brilliant,wonderful, great.
Uh, I'm a singer.
Because I've been a singer inthe band in liverpool and they
said, oh, we don't need a singer.
And I said, well, I play theguitar.
And they said we don't need aguitar player, we need a double
(06:21):
bass player.
If you can learn to play thedouble bass in 30 days, you're
in the band.
So I bought a double bass,learned to play it, got in the
band and busked in the street tomake a living and then turned
that band into a professionalband.
We recorded four albums, played660 gigs, we supported bob
dylan, amongst others, and itwas a career that made decent
(06:45):
money for everybody and Icreated a very profitable
company out of it, and that wasthe first time I had a proper
structure around any kind of job, but I'd never had a proper
boss.
Speaker 2 (06:58):
Okay, okay, I like it .
I really liked it.
That is a really a reallyunique story.
It seems like there were a lotof different points in your life
where you said yes to theopportunity ahead of you, which
I think is is really really neat.
Speaker 3 (07:12):
I think it's a little bit more than that is that the
opportunity wasn't there a lotof the time.
And I created the opportunity.
So the band existed and theysaid do you want to join our
band?
So that was an opportunity Iseized and I was willing to put
my last sense into buying adouble bass that I couldn't play
(07:33):
and I learned and I was notvery good, but I was good enough
to play in the street with thisband and then I created the
opportunity of turningprofessional.
I created the opportunity torelease records and then for the
cartoon characters, I createdthe opportunity by being very
(07:54):
insistent on creating a websiteand building out from there and
it turned out to be verysuccessful and built a company
around the website that was thenable to do the TV series once
again with Disney and ITVInternational and Radio Canada
Wow and it aired in 25 countries.
So I would say my career is alot of creating opportunities
(08:21):
that I then seize.
No-transcript.
I've seized the opportunitiesand I've paid the price and I've
(08:44):
suffered and I've worked andI've struggled like everybody
else, and I think the one thingrunning through it all is I
never give up absolutely,absolutely.
Speaker 2 (09:15):
No, that definitely is a aware of AI and really feel
the effect of oh, it's here andit's here to stay the effect of
, oh, it's here and it's here tostay.
Speaker 3 (09:30):
Well, I think, like everybody else, I was aware of
it and it kind of leaped out atme when ChatGPT suddenly hit the
world in 2023.
But what I find reallyinteresting is I was actually
already ready for AI in 2015.
And I didn't know it.
And it's one of these thingswhere you look back and you
think, well, if AI had come ontothe scene and this whole thing
(09:52):
had been happening in 2015, Iwas already ready, because the
process we use at CaliCube andthe system that I created was
already the foundation of whatwe're doing today and it isn't
significantly different todaythan it was in 2015.
And the reason I startedCuddyCube and the reason I
(10:13):
invented this whole process ofcontrolling your brand narrative
in Google and now AI is becausewhen I pivoted from cartoons
and being the voiceover artistfor a cartoon blue dog to
digital marketing, I would gointo meetings with potential
clients and I would say, oh,look, I can do your digital
(10:34):
marketing.
I've had all the success withBuwa and Koala Up to 10,.
My company had a billion paidviews in 2007.
I can do the same for you andthey would go brilliant.
Yeah, we're on board.
Absolutely no problem.
You're obviously a greatdigital marketing.
You know what you're talkingabout.
You've mastered google.
Brilliant.
Walk out the room, leave mybusiness card, don't sign the
deal, because they googled me assoon as I walked out the door
(10:58):
and my business card was thrownin the bin.
And the result on?
Google said Jason Barnard is acartoon blue dog.
Voiceover artist.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (11:07):
And I thought oh.
I have to change that, becausethat's going to stop me losing
all these hundreds of thousandsof dollars in deals that I'm
leaving on the table, and so ittook me about a year to figure
it all out, got it all changedand, of course, now all the
people sign the deals.
They search my name and I looklike an incredibly impressive
entrepreneur, digital marketer,world authority and digital
brand intelligence and all therest of it Because I've
(11:31):
manipulated Google and AI to saywhat I want it to say and to
focus on what I want it to focuson, which is Jason Barnard is
the world authority on digitalbrand intelligence and an
entrepreneur.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
I can speak to this firsthand, as I was prepping for
this interview.
When I search your name, youare an authority in the space,
and so what you're doing isworking.
What are some things that youthink business owners don't
think about when it comes tothis topic?
Speaker 3 (12:13):
There are lots of things they don't think about.
Number one they don't think, oh, as soon as I walk out of this
room or on this Zoom call, thatperson's Googling my name or
asking chat GPT.
Yeah, googling my name orasking chat gpt.
Yeah, I was talking to somebodywho does due diligence in the
financial sector and they said,well, low level, surface level
due diligence, yes, we look atgoogle.
Yes, we look at chat gpt.
(12:33):
Then we dig deep, but if youdon't pass that first surface
test, you don't even get intothe game.
And people don't think aboutthat.
If I'm thinking about doingbusiness with you, I will
research you.
How I research you is my ownaffair, but most people will
look at Google, they'll look atLinkedIn.
They may be asked to chat GPT.
Okay, if I'm looking forpotential partners or speakers
(12:56):
for a conference who are thebest speakers in the world about
knowledge panels, compilerlists, please chat GPT.
That's a reasonable thing thatpeople are starting to do, maybe
not extensively, but certainlymore or more, because it saves
them the research, and that'sthe point.
Google search is all aboutsearch.
I know what I'm looking for andI can sort through the results.
(13:17):
Chat gpt, google gemini,copilot, papaxi is research
where we're saying to them gomake the search, summarize what
you found so that I don't haveto bother.
It saves me a lot of time.
So research versus search isthe big key difference there
that people don't really thinkabout and so they don't think my
partners or my businesspartners and prospects are
(13:40):
Googling my name before they dobusiness with me.
They don't think people areresearching using these machines
and I need to be present whensomebody's researching my niche
topic and they don't think I cancontrol that.
Speaker 2 (13:58):
Yeah, yeah, as you've been talking about this, I've
been thinking of some of my ownpersonal chat GPT searches
recently and they have beencompiled a top 10 list of
companies who insert whateverI'm looking for, and so how can
companies control that?
Speaker 3 (14:17):
Oh well, we do that at Catecube, it's our specialist
superpower, super power.
But one of the things I have atrouble with is I talk to people
and I say, have you thoughtabout people googling your name
or researching on chat, gpt orcompiling lists of top 10
companies or people to work with?
And they go oh no, I haven't.
Oh yeah, you're right.
And then I say, have youthought about whether or not you
(14:38):
can control it?
And they go well, no, I can't,because google and chat gpt
figure it it out.
And you're saying, well, yes,but why don't you proactively
get involved to increase yourchances of being included in
those lists and to make surethey're giving your brand
narrative when somebody'sresearching you, so that what
you're saying to them in theroom is the same thing that
(14:59):
ChatGPT and Google are saying tothem when you're not in the
room.
Right, and it blows people'sminds to the extent that they
can't even get their head aroundthe idea that they might want
to pay me or my company to helpthem with that.
Okay, the funnel is top tobottom of the funnel is very
quick, because I'm presenting aproblem to people that they
(15:19):
haven't even thought about and asolution that they didn't even
begin to imagine existed.
The sale at the bottom of thefunnel is very difficult.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
Yeah, I'm having one of those aha moments as I talk
to you.
Speaker 3 (15:33):
I get this all the time and then I say, do you want
to buy my service?
I go no, it's too early, myhead's hurting.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
Yeah, if you Google my name, I think my LinkedIn
page comes up and maybe some oldnewspaper articles, but I've
never felt like there wassomething that I could do to
influence what that result is.
And yeah, that's really good,and definitely on branding too.
Speaker 3 (15:57):
Yeah, for corporate brands it's less of a problem
because names aren't soambiguous, but corporate names,
especially in geo regions.
But I'll give you an example.
My name, jason Barnard, isrelatively not too common, but
there are 3,000 Jason Barnardsin the world competing with me
for that top spot and all theother spots.
You search my name on GoogleJason Barnard
(16:18):
J-A-S-O-N-B-A-R-N-A-R-D.
I'm the only one in the worldwho exists as far as Google is
concerned, will only see me.
That's because I'veintentionally made that happen.
If you ask Chuck GP2, who isJason Barnard?
It won't say well, which oneare you talking about?
It will say here's JasonBarnard, world leading expert in
digital brand management, blah,blah, blah, and give you an 800
(16:43):
word essay.
And that is both understandingand dominance in terms of
probability that somebody islooking for me.
I've convinced these machinesthat I'm the most famous Jason
Barnard in the world and that'sactually not true.
Speaker 2 (16:57):
Interesting, very interesting.
So what would be some waysthere's a lot of small business
owners listening.
So what would be some ways youknow there's a lot of small
business owners listening, whatwould be some ways that you know
small businesses could competewith some of these larger brands
that seemingly have a muchlarger presence online?
Speaker 3 (17:20):
Brand, brand, brand.
And you're not going to competein terms of getting your brand
in front of everybody in theentire universe, because the big
brands have already done that.
What you can do is compete byidentifying the people who are
going to be interested inworking with you, who have got
the mindset to work with asmaller company rather than a
(17:41):
bigger company.
Get your brand in front of them, make sure that your brand pops
up everywhere they are hangingout online, naturally, to the
point to which they then Googleor chat GPT your brand name, and
make sure that brand narrativeabsolutely nails it, because the
moment they search your brandname on Google or chat GPT,
(18:02):
they're basically asking chat,gpt and Google.
Do you recommend this supplier?
Yeah, and if they say, in mycase, jason Barnard is a world
renowned expert in digital brandmanagement or Caddy Cube is a
premium digital marketingconsultancy for entrepreneurs
and their corporations, that's arecommendation and it's the
(18:25):
tipping point.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
Yeah, yeah, if you think of it through the lens of
conversion rate optimization fora physical products brand on,
if you're wanting to do speakingor wanting to really do
anything, establish yourself asan authority, that's your
conversion.
Speaker 3 (18:44):
like the last part, uh, until you convert a sale,
yeah and I find that thevocabulary that chat, gpt,
google, gemini, google learnabout.
If you've tried it, it'sbrilliant.
It's the chat gpt killer.
If you haven't tried it, try it.
Google, learn about the trickthat we managed to pull off that
(19:06):
nobody else in the world canpull off in an intentional
manner.
That we do is to get themachines to use superlatives
when they're talking about you.
World-recognized expert Okay,visionary Innovator One of the
(19:27):
things you left out of my bio atthe beginning.
I'm a serial entrepreneur,best-selling author, um, a
renowned speaker and uh,innovator.
Award-winning innovator yeah,and if you ask these machines
(19:49):
who I am, it will useaward-winning, it will use
serial, it will use best-sellingbecause I have educated it to
use those words, both through myown words, but also by
insisting that people whowelcome me on my podcast, for
example, use those words too,because that's third party
(20:09):
corroboration and I saidjokingly I like that because I
wrote it, but if I can get youto say it, you're vouching for
it, you're confirming it and youare independent of me.
Therefore, that's a hugepositive signal for Google.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
That's interesting.
Yeah, I've literallyexperienced this first person as
I was writing the intro, and sothat's very me, that's very me.
Speaker 3 (20:37):
It's actually creating your own truth.
Obviously, if you're're lying,it's going to be really
difficult to do, but if you'retelling the truth and you can
back it up, that repetition issuper important.
Um, and the award-winninginnovator is an interesting one
because I won Davie Awards,which are web awards for the
(21:01):
innovative website I built in2007.
The second one is actually forsongwriting, but that doesn't
matter.
I got two Davie Awards and I'man innovator.
Put the two together.
Award-winning innovator.
Bob's your uncle, yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:18):
Award-winning innovator Bob's your uncle, yeah
, so what are your thoughts onthe future of business and AI?
There seems to be two camps ofpeople.
There seem to be a camp ofpeople that are pretty nervous
about it and there seem to be agroup of entrepreneurs that are
very excited about it and can'tstop talking about it.
Have you witnessed, before weget into the future, have you
(21:41):
witnessed kind of this division?
Speaker 3 (21:45):
Yeah, when I talk to prospects, there are two, as you
said, camps, one of which isI'll kick that down the road
because I don't want to look atit and it's fear and it's too
much work and I don't understand.
And if I don't look at it itmight go away.
And for anybody who thinks thatexplicitly or implicitly,
(22:10):
forget it.
It's not going away, it's hereto stay.
And then the other camp issaying I'm really interested.
I can see that how I'mrepresented by AI in the future
is going to be a huge questionthat I need to answer and a
problem I need to solve, becausehow AI represents me as an
entrepreneur is going to definehow well I do business today, as
(22:35):
people research me in order todo business the due diligence,
for example.
It will facilitate my careerwhen I pivot, because I'll be
more credible and I can take allof my personal brand
credibility with me and it'sgoing to define my legacy.
I was talking to somebody who's80, who's coming to the end of
their career, and they weresaying well, actually the only
(22:55):
part I'm interested in is thelegacy part, because I want my
children and my grandchildrenand my great-grandchildren to
remember me fondly and everybodyaround them when they're
researching me, to see a verypositive message about me here
(23:22):
to stay, that it's going to getmore and more powerful, and that
what AI is saying about youwhen you're not in the room is
going to be an existential,fundamental, foundational
question for all of us and anexistential problem for all of
us that we need to solve.
They're exactly the people wecan talk to and we can help.
So from what I've learned is Iused to try to convince
everybody.
(23:42):
Now I've stopped.
If if you think ai is goingaway or you think you can kick
this can down the road, go aheadif you can see that today it's
already making a difference andtomorrow that difference is
simply going to be exaggeratedand amplified.
Come and work with us, becausewe're the only company in the
(24:05):
world who has the experience,the knowledge, the tech and the
data to control these machinesin terms of what they're saying
about you.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
Very interesting, as we've been talking.
One thing that has come up isso I own physical products
brands and have been veryfocused on building those brands
which I someday hope to sell,and probably neglecting the
personal brand side of things.
(24:33):
And so you know, beyond aLinkedIn page and I guess I have
a podcast but what are someways that if people listening
are thinking, yeah, I'm alsoprobably neglecting my personal
brand, what are a couple of wayspeople can step up their game
in that department?
Speaker 3 (24:54):
Well, the first thing is build your own website.
Okay, it can be two pages, itcan be one page, for that matter
, it doesn't matter.
But all of these machines arelooking for what john muller
from google calls the point ofreconciliation.
I call it the entity home.
It's where does this personlive online that they control,
(25:15):
that I can look to or look atfor their version of the facts
and their version of their brandnarrative.
If I can find that as a machinealgorithm, I've then got the
foundational story in one piecethat I can then analyze and
understand.
Then I can go around the weband I can check that it's all
true, because what you haveright now is a broken plate.
(25:39):
I use that analogy a lot is youdon't have that central hub,
your website, the point ofreconciliation, your story is
fragmented all around the weband the machine is trying to
pull all these pieces togetherand turn it into the completed
puzzle, but it doesn't haveanything to compare it to.
So it's explicitly looking forthat website that gives it the
(25:59):
completed puzzle and then it cansay okay, all these pieces
together mean that that puzzlethat he's completed for me, on
that entity home point ofreconciliation, is true and I
can believe it.
What then happens is the longeryou have that website in place,
the longer you prove yourselfto be honest about your
(26:21):
representation of yourself andthe more you get that
corroboration to support whatyou're saying on your own
website, support your brandnarrative, your story, your
credibility, your authority,your expression of who you are
and why you're important or whyyou're trustworthy.
The longer you can keep thatall in place in a very, very,
very firm puzzle piece, as itwere, the more it will believe
(26:46):
anything you tell it.
Speaker 2 (26:48):
Interesting.
That's very interesting.
I had people on the podcastwho've had their own websites
firstnamelastnamecom.
So I have actually looked fordavidschilmercom and it's taken
Any pro tips on that that first,you know, taking that first
(27:09):
step with a domain.
Speaker 3 (27:12):
Yeah, the com doesn't really matter, you can use a
different one.
Don't link it to your job.
So don't take jasonblaner dotum marketing, because I might
pivot my career.
That would be a pity.
But dot info is fine, dot orgis fine, dot net is fine, dot
(27:32):
xyz is fine um.
If you can't find any of those,you can always add your middle
initial, jasonmbarnardcom wouldbe good.
Jason Martin Barnard, my middlename is fine.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
So all of those are good.
Speaker 3 (27:45):
Okay, Very good.
One really smart piece ofadvice don't use a hyphen.
Speaker 2 (27:53):
Okay, I agree, but can you explain why?
Speaker 3 (27:58):
Because it confuses the machine and it's also
difficult to type on a mobiledevice.
It's a pain in the yes yeah.
So from a human, practicalperspective, it's a pain and for
the machine it createsconfusion.
Speaker 2 (28:14):
That's very interesting, okay, well, this
has been really insightful andprobably I would imagine there's
a lot of listeners that arehaving the same aha moment as I
had on on this.
Um, any other other things youthink are worth discussing on
this topic?
Speaker 3 (28:34):
well, taking control of your personal brand or your
corporate brand or even yourproduct.
You were were mentioningproducts.
This works for all of them.
It doesn't matter what you'retalking about.
Google and AI want tounderstand the whole world.
They want to understandeverything.
And if you look at Wikipedia,you think okay, wikipedia, it
uses Wikipedia, which is fine.
Six million articles, so sixmillion things.
(28:56):
Google's knowledge graph has 54billion things in it, so it's
well over 10,000 times bigger.
Wikipedia doesn't matter.
Wikipedia was used to train themachine 10 years ago.
When you've got 6 millionversus 54 billion, you can see
that the machine is well beyondWikipedia.
(29:17):
So don't worry about Wikipedia,don't worry about being famous.
Everybody can do this.
You can do this at home, asthey say on the TV, on kids'
shows, and I advise you to do it.
And it's all about the very,very simple entity home.
We can use a hub-spoken-wheelmodel explanation.
(29:37):
The entity home is the hub.
It's the control hub for yourpersonal brand or your corporate
brand.
The wheel is all of theinformation about you around the
web and the spokes are thelinks between the two.
So you create your hub, youtell your story, you tell all of
the details of your story andyour authority on why you should
(29:59):
be trusted on your own website.
You big yourself up.
You make sure that all of thedetails of your story and your
authority and why you should betrusted on your own website you
big yourself up.
You make sure that all of theinformation around the web and
that wheel corroborates whatyou're saying as much as
possible from third-partysources like yourself for me,
but also my own website, my ownsocial media profiles, my own
Medium channel, my own YouTubechannel, my own Forbes profile,
(30:21):
and then link from the entityhome, the hub, my own Medium
channel, my own YouTube channel,my own Forbes profile, and then
link from the entity home, thehub, the point of reconciliation
, out to all of these differentresources that support what
you're saying and back, when youcan, from those resources to
the entity home and waitInteresting, and the machine
will go to your entity home, outto the resource, back out to
(30:42):
the resource, back out to theresource, and that repetition
will get it to understand.
It takes time, machines don'tdigest immediately, so you need
to be patient and as yourdigital ecosystem changes and
your life changes, you need toupdate everything all the time
Because if you let, for example,somebody published a book they
(31:04):
didn't tell us, and so theypublished the book over here.
But we didn't tell Google andAI that they'd published the
book.
So Google and AI just thoughtit was a different person, so
they created another person intheir little brain.
So all of the equity that theperson was hoping to get out of
the book was lost because it wasapplied to another person with
(31:24):
that same name in the, in the,in the, in the machine's brain.
So what they actually did wassplit their equity, and you've
got to be really careful aboutthat.
You have to make sure that themachines understand that all
these glorious things thatyou've done are indeed you, yeah
, and so you need to keep ahandle on it over time, and
that's what people forget ordon't want to look at, and it
(31:46):
takes a lot of effort and a lotof time, a lot of resources and,
most of all, consistency, whichis something that most human
beings are very bad at.
So we've built caliq pro.
The machine and my team areabsolutely perfect at
consistency, maintaining thisover time and updating every
time anything changes.
So the machines are never inany doubt, because as soon as
(32:08):
they have doubt, they freak outand they go oh, I'm not sure.
They don't say anything ifthey're sure.
That's why I dominate jasonbarnard as a search result,
because they're so sure about methat they're super confident
and they go.
This is jason barnard as asearch result, because they're
so sure about me that they'resuper confident and they go.
This is jason barnard, isn't hewonderful?
And all the other jasonbarnards in the world get
forgotten, forgotten because themachines are so confident what
(32:32):
they've got to say about me.
And I've convinced them that Iam incredibly authoritative,
credible and indeed famouswithout actually being famous.
I am authoritative, incredible,credible and indeed famous
without actually being famous.
I am authoritative and crediblewithin my niche, but I've
convinced them that I'm muchmore famous than I truly am.
We have an AI analysis of how apersonal brand is perceived by
AI.
(32:53):
That we do at Catecube, and ifyou want one, come along to the
catecubecom K-A-L-I-C-U-Bcomwebsite and ask for one, and the
benchmarks we use are myselfand Richard Branson.
Okay, and I'm surprisinglyclose to Richard Branson in
terms of how these machinesunderstand and appreciate my
(33:16):
famousness and my credibility.
Wow, because I'm actuallymaking an effort and I've been
making an effort for 12 years,so I've managed to push myself
up to not quite the same levelas Richard Branson, but not very
far away, sure, and obviouslyI'm not at his level, absolutely
.
I don't pretend that I am, butthe machines are happy.
Speaker 2 (33:37):
Yeah, yeah, well, well, that's.
That's a really, uh reallyinteresting thing to think about
.
One thing that you've mentionedis consistency, and do you mean
word for word or do you meanjust same general themes?
Speaker 3 (33:55):
that's a great question, because it used to be
word for word when I startedthis.
Uh, it was repetition, and theSEOs in the world would get
really annoyed with me because Iwas repeating the same thing,
I'd go duplicate content.
It's really difficult wheneverybody's telling you you're
being stupid, to sit there andthink, well, actually, no, I'm
being smart, it's just not whatyou expect and it's not what
(34:18):
makes sense to you.
And I agree, duplicate contentin SEO is a problem, but it's
not when you're trying toeducate a machine.
Yeah, and so duplicate contentsaying the same thing, exactly
the same thing across yourentire digital footprint does
work, but now the machines aresmarter so you don't need to,
which means you can adapt yourmessage to the audience on
(34:39):
Twitter, on LinkedIn, on YouTube, on Medium, on Forbes, because
that's what those platformsdemand and, at the end of the
day, we're still trying toconvince people.
So the machines are smartenough and you need to just
focus on the things that areimportant to you and are
relevant to the people on thatplatform and then join the
pieces together on your centralwebsite hub.
(35:00):
That's how you make sense of itto the machine.
If you do that intelligently,you win, and I'd love to tell
you one more thing.
Whatever happens next doesn'tmatter.
This system will work, and anexample would be DeepSeek came
(35:20):
out, first thing I'd do wasdownload it, say who is Jason
Barnard.
It answered perfect.
I hadn't explicitly worked onDeepSeek, but it already
answered perfectly.
Chachipt, as soon as it cameout, asked it who is Jason
Barnard, what is CaliCube?
Answered perfectly.
Copilot same, gemini, same.
Google LearnAbout, samePerplexity same.
(35:42):
It works every time because allof these machines use the same
data source, the web.
They're all looking tounderstand the world and find
the best solution to the problemthat their user is expressing,
and they're all based on threetechnologies.
(36:03):
Large language model chatbots,like ChatGPT was at the start,
search results and knowledgegraphs.
So the large language modelchatbot is what drives ChatGPT,
but they've now added searchresults, but they don't have a
knowledge graph.
Google Gemini is a largelanguage model chatbot with some
(36:25):
search results, but not as manyas chatGPT.
Perplexity is a large languagemodel with a lot of search
results and that's whyperplexity is so good in real
time.
Google LearnAbout is a largelanguage model chatbot, search
results and a knowledge graph,which is a machine-readable
encyclopedia like Wikipedia, but10,000 times bigger.
(36:48):
All mixed together and that isthe ChatGP T-Killer, because it
uses all three technologies.
It says I can converse with theperson I'm talking to using the
LLM chatbot, I can give themreal-time information using the
search results and I can factcheck using my knowledge graph,
my encyclopedia.
That is where we're going andthe only question now is what is
(37:10):
the mix of those threetechnologies in any one of the
assistive or answer enginessomebody's using?
And all three technologies, allthree of those platforms use
the same data source, the web,and the same system for
collecting that information, thesame system for passing that
information.
And if you can master yourdigital footprint from A to Z
using that central hub website,you've won the game and it
(37:33):
doesn't matter who wins.
Speaker 2 (37:35):
I love it.
I love it.
Curious when you which searchengine or what AI tool do you
use?
And obviously the businessyou're in.
You probably are on all of them, but what is your favorite
currently?
Speaker 3 (37:49):
Right.
Well, in CaliCube Pro, we'vegot 3 billion data points
collected from Google and AIover the last 10 years, and so
we obviously collect from Bing,we collect from Google, we
collect from ChatGPT, we collectfrom Claude, we collect from
Perplexity and from gemini.
So we're collecting from all ofthem because we need to
understand all of them.
I really like um gemini 1.5deep research, okay, which came
(38:19):
out recently, and I've starteddoing due diligence on people
just for fun.
And it's basically it's almosta gentile Is it sets out its
plan of how it's going to do duediligence on somebody and then
does it and it researches like50 websites and then spits out
(38:42):
an answer using the knowledgegraph, the websites and the
large language model, and it'sbeautiful.
And I've also tried, you know,compile me a list of who I
should invite to speak at myconference about knowledge
panels, and of course, jasonBarnard comes out on top because
that's my specialist topic, andit comes up with the plan.
(39:03):
It says here's what I'm goingto do one, two, three, four,
five, six, seven, eight.
Do you agree?
Yes, I agree.
And then it does the researchand it comes back with the list
and when you look at it youthink okay, well, in a year's
time, who's going to do theresearch themselves?
I'm not.
Yeah, I wouldn't bother.
So then if if I'm hoping tospeak at a conference about
(39:24):
knowledge panels on Google, Ihave zero chance in a couple of
years if I don't know theorganizer.
Yeah, yeah, it's Google and AIwho are going to decide whether
or not I speak at theseconferences if I don't know the
organizer.
So human relationships remainincredibly important, but they
may well be your only hope inthe future.
Speaker 2 (39:48):
Yeah, wow, I've never thought about that.
You're absolutely right.
Speaker 3 (39:54):
Yeah, that goes for purchasing.
That goes for B2B business.
It goes for who should I investin?
I mean, I don't know how far itwill go, how much people will
trust these machines, butcertainly what we're doing with
ChatGPT and what we trustChatGPT to do for us today is
significantly evolved from whatwe were messing around with at
(40:15):
the start.
Speaker 2 (40:17):
Yes, absolutely, and I think everyone's usage of it
has gone up.
I know the number of times thatI engage with ChatGPT.
Every day has been like ahockey stick recently and I just
keep finding more and more waysto use it and plug it into my
life, and it's outstanding.
Speaker 3 (40:40):
And if you look at that as well, you think about it
.
Chatgpt is having aconversation with you or you're
having a conversation withChatGPT and, although you are
the person driving theconversation, chatgpt or Google
Gemini participate in the waythe conversation evolves because
they offer you follow-upquestions.
Google LearnAbout offerscontacts.
(41:03):
If you say who is Jason Barnard, it will offer at the side.
Do you want to look atBrandSupps?
Do you want to look atKnowledge Panels?
Do you want to look at hiscareer as an entrepreneur?
Do you want to look at CaliCube?
It's offering me differentoptions that I might not have
thought of.
So it's a conversation betweenme and the machine and, as a
business or a business owner oran expert or somebody who wants
(41:23):
to get out there with theirpersonal brand, you want the
machine to introduce you to theconversation spontaneously,
because that's where you'regoing to hit your new market.
That's where you're going tohit people who didn't know about
you previously, and when theydo introduce you, they're
implicitly recommending you.
Wow.
Speaker 2 (41:43):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (41:47):
This is, and they're, the biggest influences in the
world.
Yeah, if I'm on youtube andI've got a million followers,
I'm peanuts compared to chat,gpt or google, who have billions
of users asking trillions ofquestions to a machine that they
trust to provide them with thesolution to their problem every
single day.
Speaker 2 (42:07):
You're right, you're right.
That totally changes the way.
Yeah, wow.
Speaker 3 (42:14):
Isn't it cool.
I like you.
You're great Because you keepgoing, wow, wow, you're right,
I'm just thinking of.
Speaker 2 (42:20):
there are when you, when I I'll just share with you
my experiences from thisinterview is when I have people
on on as guests.
There's a lot of generalbusiness advice where it's like,
oh, I've thought about that,but maybe not that angle.
This introduces a completelydifferent topic that I've never
thought about and I've had about10 aha moments and you're're
(42:44):
like, yeah, to compareespecially what you just said
about like comparing a YouTuberwith a million followers I can
tell you in physical products, aYouTuber with a million
followers can print money basedon their authority if they have
a product that they're selling.
But I've never thought of itthrough the context of search
(43:05):
engines and so, yeah, this hasbeen.
Speaker 3 (43:09):
Well, I think the thing about a search engine is
it's not an influencer, it's ananswerer of questions or a
provider of possibilities,whereas a chat, gpt or a Gemini,
one of these assistive oranswer engines, is actually
guiding people down the funnel,and that's Fabrice Canel from
Bing who told me that's whatthey were doing with Copilot.
(43:30):
The idea of Copilot is to guidesomebody down the funnel for
what they call the perfect click.
I research, I ask forrecommendations, I ask which one
I should choose.
I get the click.
I ask which one I should choose, I get the click, I buy.
And the proof here is a clientof ours told us that their
conversion rate from Googlesearch was 0.03%.
(43:54):
Their conversion rate fromChatGPT is 3%.
Wow, that's the perfect click.
Well, it's not perfect becauseit's only three percent, but
it's much more perfect than thegoogle click absolutely,
absolutely.
Speaker 2 (44:09):
and there's a there's .
I have noticed the more Iengage with chat gpt, the more I
trust it.
Yes, it's like a buddy thatnever lets you down, um, and and
the more it doesn't let youdown, the more you trust it.
And so, whereas with theinfluencer there are, sometimes
I will watch with a discerningeye, yeah, where I may not agree
(44:31):
with what they have to say ortheir opinion, but I do engage
it Right.
Speaker 3 (44:37):
Yeah, no, sorry, and you just said the word opinion.
Yeah, chat GPT has an opinion,but we don't think of it.
But the opinion it has is whatI put in its brain.
It's saying Jason Barnard is aworld-renowned expert in digital
brand management, or the worldauthority on digital brand
intelligence, because I told itto say that.
Yeah, but it's expressing as ahuman being what we're seeing is
(45:00):
an opinion.
I'm an expert and it believesme to be an expert.
So, although it doesn't have anopinion, technically speaking,
that's what we perceive as humanbeings and it's as good as yeah
.
Speaker 2 (45:15):
Yeah, wow, well, this has been an outstanding
interview, jason.
Before we close out the show,we have something called the
fire round.
It's four questions.
We ask the guest at the end ofthe show Are you ready for the
fire round?
I am ready for the fire round,all right.
What with your musicalbackground?
(45:35):
What's your favorite record?
The Clash London Calling Verynice.
What are your hobbies?
Speaker 3 (45:42):
Singing and playing double bass in the band in my
local village but it's kind of ahobby, but it's actually a
second job because we playprofessional gigs around here.
I've actually got a jazz clubopposite where I was playing two
weeks ago.
Speaker 2 (45:58):
Cool, very nice.
What is one thing you do notmiss about working for the man?
I don't know, I never workedfor the man, that's right.
That's right, you're a unicorn,as we like to call them.
Very good and final questionwhat do you think sets apart
successful entrepreneurs fromthose who give up, fail or never
(46:21):
get started?
Speaker 3 (46:27):
entrepreneurs from those who give up, fail or never
get started.
Um, determination is probablythe one thing that I would.
I see in myself that has madeall the difference in the world.
Um, my, the other thing that Ifound is when I'm doing
something like the music companyor the global edutainment
company I like saying that orCaliTube is when I go to bed in
(46:47):
the evening.
I'm like a small child.
I can't wait to wake up in themorning and start again and get
going with that.
So that enthusiasm withdetermination and confidence are
the three things I think setpeople apart, or me at least,
that's my experience, that's areally good answer.
Speaker 2 (47:08):
Now, jason, if people are interested in getting in
touch with you or working withCaliCube, what is the best way?
Google me, very nice.
And for those tuning in onaudio, he is holding up a QR
code.
And for those of you tuning inon on video, you can see this.
(47:28):
Brilliant.
I can tell you that this isepisode 267.
We've never had someone withtheir own qr code.
Speaker 3 (47:34):
I absolutely love it so you can google me.
Or you can ask chat gpt wherecan I connect with jason?
What can he offer me?
Uh, where shall I follow him?
Um, absolutely fine, you ask itwhatever you want and it will
answer.
Oh, and I'll give you one lastthing.
That's really cool.
(47:54):
If you ask chatchpt, tell meabout jason barnard as a
musician, it answers somethingquite unexpected.
It says jason barnard isprincipally known as a digital
brand expert.
That's what he does today withcali cube.
However, if you really want toknow about his music career here
(48:17):
it is.
So what it does is start bycorrecting you that you're
looking for the wrong aspect ofme.
According to my brand narrativetoday, that's wow, that is
strong.
Speaker 2 (48:28):
That is strong.
Well, I would encourageeverybody either scan that QR
code or type in Jason's name andinto chat GPT and see what you
find.
But, jason, this has been agreat interview.
Thank you for your time todayand looking forward to staying
in touch.
Thank you, that was brilliant.
This has been a great interview.
Thank you for your time todayand looking forward to staying
in touch.
Thank you, that was brilliantDavid.
Speaker 3 (48:47):
I really enjoyed it.
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