March 4, 2025 • 46 mins
Ever wondered what it takes to excel in sales? Join us as Wes Schaefer, the renowned Sales Whisperer, shares his insightful journey from the Air Force to becoming a leading sales strategist. In this episode, we explore the pivotal moments in Wes's life that transformed him from a novice salesperson to an industry expert, including the invaluable role mentorship played in shaping his career.
Wes emphasizes the vital distinction between common misconceptions about sales and the underlying science that drives successful interactions. He explains that effective selling hinges on empathy, asking the right questions, and genuinely listening to clients' needs. By redefining the approach to sales, he inspires those who may feel intimidated by the prospect of selling.
We also delve into the evolving nature of sales amid the pandemic, discussing how personal interaction and human connection remain paramount in a world increasingly reliant on digital communication. Wes champions the idea of tailoring outreach efforts to be more personal and engaging, reinforcing the need for trust and relationship-building in modern business environments.
This captivating conversation doesn’t just provide strategies; it also challenges listeners to reflect on their career paths and consider whether they are ready to embrace their inner entrepreneur. Wes advocates for always blooming where you are planted, and he provides compelling arguments for why stepping into the entrepreneurial world may be a fulfilling and rewarding avenue to explore.
Don’t miss this chance to learn life-altering insights about sales and entrepreneurship that can inspire you to reach your goals! Subscribe, share, and leave a review to support the show!
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome everyone to the Firing the man podcast, a
show for anyone who wants to betheir own boss.
If you sit in a cubicle everyday and know you are capable of
more, then join us.
This show will help you build abusiness and grow your passive
income streams in just a fewshort hours per day.
And now your hosts, serialentrepreneurs David Shomer and
(00:22):
Ken Wilson.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Welcome everyone to the Firing the man podcast.
In today's episode, we arethrilled to have Wes Schaefer,
also known as the SalesWhisperer, join us.
Wes is a sales expert, speaker,author and entrepreneur who has
dedicated his career to helpingprofessionals and businesses
succeed in sales and marketing.
With experience in the AirForce and nearly three decades
(00:47):
in sales, he has developedproven strategies to help people
sell professionally,predictably and profitably.
Wes has authored two books,produced over 700 podcast
episodes since 2009, and spokenworldwide on sales and marketing
.
His expertise in connectingwith customers, leveraging
automation and integratingmarketing into the sales process
(01:10):
has made him a sought-aftermentor in the business world.
Today we'll discuss his journey, his approach to sales and the
key insights he shares withbusiness leaders looking to
improve their sales process.
Wes, welcome to the show.
Hey man, thanks for having meAbsolutely.
So, to start things off, canyou share with our audience a
(01:31):
little bit about your journeyfrom serving in the Air Force to
becoming the sales whisperer?
Speaker 3 (01:39):
It was a bumpy journey.
I got out of the Air Force in97 and jumped right into sales.
We'd been married barely twoyears, we already had an infant
son.
We had another on the way wedidn't know about.
And I did my five years andjumped into commission sales.
(02:01):
And it was bumpy, lots of upsand downs.
I got into high tech right asthe as the dotcom bubble was
imploding, we just didn't knowit.
After six years of that chaos Iwas like man, being on my own
cannot be any more chaotic thanworking in high tech.
Working in high tech.
(02:22):
So in 2006, I had actually Ibought a course, a guy I didn't
even know him.
I knew the guy that referredhim and you're talking about
know, like and trust, right.
So it was a good referral.
It was an affordable class.
It was a 12-week teleclass, soyou had to sign up in 05 and it
(02:44):
didn't start till early 06.
They limited the seating, like35 people.
It was $600.
It was a conference call.
You know, this is before socialmedia, right Before Facebook
groups, before school, beforeDiscord and telegram and slack
and everything else, right,whatsapp.
(03:06):
So you, you got a PDF, you got12 phone calls and um, and it
changed my life and I ended uphiring the guy that taught that
class as my mentor became hisfirst licensee.
My mentor became his firstlicensee and so by the end of 06
, I think it was September 1stof 06, I bought the domain name
(03:30):
the sales whisperer.
I was literally watching thedog whisperer and I remember
distinctly he said I Irehabilitate dogs and I train
their owners.
And I thought I rehabilitatesalespeople and train their
managers and I bought the name.
Ten days later somebody emailedme, asked me if I would sell
(03:53):
that URL.
I was like man, I just boughtit, you know.
Then I trademarked it and sothat began the journey.
You know, I became a licenseeof Steve's.
I had his content and juststarted cold calling locally
teaching, sales training, verynice, very nice.
And now here we are, 19 yearslater.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
Outstanding.
Well, I'm looking forward todiving into that.
One of the things that you hadmentioned was you were working
in high tech.
It was highly stressful and yousaid to yourself going out on
my own could be no morestressful than what I'm
currently doing and the show'scalled Firing the man.
I would say that was yourFiring the man moment, and we've
(04:33):
got a lot of people listeningthat are in a high-pressure job,
high-stress job, and it'ssomething that they're
contemplating, and so whatadvice would you give to those
people who are thinking aboutgoing out on their own and
betting on themselves?
Speaker 3 (04:50):
To be accurate, I said it was chaotic, you are
right.
Yes, not stressful.
Yes, I was actually doing wellin sales.
I was laid off from two jobs orthree jobs.
What was that?
Three jobs and within a fewyears I forget.
But twice on my birthday I waslike I need to change my
birthday.
(05:10):
I was over quota in 04 when Igot laid off from my first high
tech job Before my severance ranout.
The former president of thatcompany had become the CEO of a
tech company in Austin, which iswhere I was living, and he
(05:31):
picked me up right away and Iworked for them for three years.
That moved me out to Californiaand so I was one of three out
of 33 salespeople that had mademy number.
The previous year.
I still got to let go, so Ikind of cracked the code on
sales.
I was making good money.
(05:51):
But yeah, it was totally chaotic, like nobody knows what they're
doing.
You look around it's like I'malmost 55 years old, about to
have my fourth grandkid.
I don't know what the hell'sgoing on.
You look around and go oh, whenI'm that guy's age, I'll have
my stuff together, like,hopefully, maybe you know.
It's like there's no owner'smanual.
(06:13):
Man, we're all figuring thisstuff out.
This is the first time I'veever been this age, so I mean,
we're all figuring it out, andso, yeah, it was chaotic.
Always there's stressful times,regardless of what you're going
through.
But my advice would be, like mydad always says, if you think
(06:34):
you're desperate, you are Okay.
So calm down.
People do allow themselves toget stressed and it's like look,
there's no saber-toothed tigersout there.
Okay, you are not going to beeaten.
We don't live in a war-torncountry.
You know, we're not in NorthKorea.
Figure it out, right, there areoptions out there.
(06:56):
There are free resources, thereare paid, affordable resources.
You can start your own right.
So you've got to take a stepback and look, firing the man is
fine, and from anentrepreneurial standpoint, you
know, the US is a great country.
It's what separates us fromeverybody else, is that
entrepreneurial spirit, and youcan't really explain it Like
(07:18):
you're born into it, like itseeps into your blood, kind of
like when you're in Texas, right, it's like.
You know, I lived in Texas formany years and, and it's a, it's
a state of mind, right, it'slike what this feels different
here, and so being entrepreneuris great.
I think sometimes, though,there's too we, it's
romanticized too much and andalmost we almost look down on
(07:43):
people like that aren't doingtheir own thing.
It's like the greatest salesmanI know.
He's a friend of mine, a mentor.
I worked with him at a coupleof different companies and he's
never been on his own.
He tried it for a minute, hatedit, and he's literally the
number one salesman at one oflike a fortune 100 company.
(08:04):
He's probably like literallythe best salesman in the world
right now.
It makes a lot of money, okay,so you know.
So, first of all, bloom whereyou're planted, okay, if you do
want to fire the man, if you dowant to go out on your own,
pissing everyone off, you know,and leaving a bad taste
(08:26):
everyone's mouth as you leave,is not really a good exit, right
.
So do all you can where you are, and you know if you do, plan
on leaving.
So here's the beauty of it isthat you can do what you must do
to win in anything, and that isto detach, detach from the
(08:50):
outcome.
You know, and it sunk into mewhen I started to learn how to
play golf my dad bought me golflessons for my 23rd birthday and
I didn't know if he loved me orhated me for doing that.
Cause golf is addictive and, um, I remember I get.
When you watch golf, you watchthese professionals.
You know two foot three footputt.
(09:11):
They take the same amount oftime lining it up as a 40 foot
putt.
Why are they doing that Sameroutine?
Because that routine, like abasketball player, you know
dribble, dribble, dribble on thefree throw line, spin, spin
twice.
You know bite your tongue,close your right eye, shoot the
(09:31):
shot.
Getting into that rhythm helpsthem detach from the outcome.
It puts them into the properstate of mind to execute the
task at hand.
Okay and so.
So I tell people all the timethe task at hand, okay and so.
So I tell people all the timewe, we're not in charge of sales
, we're not in control of it.
Selling like weight loss is alagging indicator.
(09:52):
Okay, if you want to lose 20pounds in 90 days, when you get
on the scale in 90 days, it'sonly going to be proof of the
work you did or did not do.
Same thing with selling.
At the end of the quarteryou'll look back.
Did you hit your numbersMeaning?
Did you prospect?
Did you call?
Did you email?
(10:13):
Did you direct mail?
Did you knock on doors?
Did you go on trade shows?
Did you engage properly onsocial media?
Did you send good emails?
It's a lagging indicator.
So you must detach from theoutcome.
Oh, this guy might yell at mewhen I call them.
Call them anyway.
That is your job.
Detach from the outcome.
So if you're somewhere that youwant to leave and I'm not saying
(10:36):
, don't care about the resultsor the quality of your work, you
want to make that putt, youwant to sink that free throw.
But worrying about it,stressing about it, won't help.
So calm down and say how can Iput my best foot forward?
And if you're going to leaveanyway here's the ironic thing
(10:56):
when you're not all bound up andworried about the results and
the outcome, you relax and a lotof times you end up doing
better.
Then you start doing better andyou maybe make more money, you
get more accolades andrecognition from the company,
maybe you get a promotion.
Now, all of a sudden, you're ina position to make the change
(11:19):
that you wanted.
Now you may not want to leave.
Wanted now, you may not want toleave, okay.
So but just understand that andlook and the attitude and the
reputation and the work habitsthat you ingrain and put into
practice while you're workingfor the man you're going to
carry over with you when you goton your own, you know so to
(11:42):
leaving some bad blood, gettingit bad blood, being pent up and
frustrated.
It's not a good way to entergoing out on your own.
So calm down, do good work,detach and again, if you truly
want to leave and they'regrinding you to dust, once you
detach and say you know what,I'm going to give you 40 hours.
You're going to give me foreight hours a day.
(12:03):
You're not getting me for 10hours a day, 12 hours a day.
You're not getting 70, 80 hoursout of me a week.
If you want to leave, right,start to put your foot down and
you never know, they may beasking 70, 80 hours of you
because you're a pushover andyou allow it, you know.
So there's a lot you can unpackthere.
(12:26):
So you know, if you're goingout on your own, go out for the
right reasons, in the right way.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
You know there's a lot of great, great parts of
your response, and one of them Iwant to take note of is that
working for the man is not a badthing and it's not evil.
Speaker 3 (12:44):
You're not a punk, right, but you watch the Andrew
Tate's of the world.
No, you're not making a milliondollars.
You're a worthless human being.
I'm like you're a worthlesshuman being, yeah, yeah, we're
even saying that.
Speaker 2 (12:55):
Yeah, and while the show is called Firing the man, I
have worked for the man andI've learned a tremendous amount
.
I've worked with awesome peopleand it's that idea of
entrepreneurship andintrapreneurship and I like your
analogy bloom where you'replanted and so, yeah, really
(13:16):
good stuff there.
Now, to move on, you hadmentioned when you took that
sales course with Steve Ibelieve was the instructor you
said it changed your life, whichis a dramatic statement.
Explain that.
What about it changed your life?
Speaker 3 (13:33):
So it changed for a lot of reasons.
One, the company that put onthat workshop is in Austin and
the guy's name is Roy Williams.
He owns the Wizard of Ads andI've been reading his stuff and
he would do like once a month hedid a free seminar down at his
office and back then he was justin a commercial building kind
(13:56):
of a strip mall sort of.
You know like four or fiveoffices just you know an
insurance place, you know hisoffice, or five offices just you
know an insurance place, youknow his office, just kind of an
industrial, um, little stripmall kind of open air area.
Um, when you attended one ofhis classes once you attend one
(14:18):
I don't know if you can tell I'mtalking funny Yesterday in
jujitsu this black belt put hisknee in my chin, I bit my tongue
, so I'm fighting this call forthree and a half weeks, got a
swollen tongue, so anyway, hey,you haven't been punching the
face lately.
So you know what, make the nextcall.
They're not going to eat you,but anyway, once you attend one
(14:41):
of his classes, all futureclasses are 50% off because
you're a graduate.
So this was by far the cheapestclass he ever offered and it
was the one at the time.
It was the only teleclass heever offered, because by that
point I was living in SouthernCalifornia, where I am now, my
wife's from here and I wascovering the West Coast now my
(15:08):
wife's from here and I wascovering the West Coast.
So from like early 2001, maybeuntil 04, I went to his monthly
thing like all the time, sobeing able to do a $600 class,
and I couldn't get my company toofficially pay for it.
But my manager, because I wasdoing well, he let me kind of
bury my kind of pad my expensesover like four or five months so
(15:29):
it eventually got paid for it.
I just couldn't do it outright,so hey.
So now I'm an alumni and I'vegone to at least a dozen classes
ever since and it's a.
He's built a campus, lodging isfree when you sign up and food
and great drinks.
I mean it's awesome.
So that changed my life,hanging out with good people,
(15:51):
seeing that evolve, get smart,smarter on sales and marketing.
But then working with Steve,steve gave me a process and a
system.
I was a good salesperson, a lotof that was natural.
System I was a good salesperson, a lot of it was natural.
I went to the Air Force Academyso I had good leadership
(16:17):
training, communication training.
I'd gone through a lot so Icarry myself well in a crowd,
whatever.
So I had all that.
But Steve showed me the scienceof sales.
But Steve showed me the scienceof sales Right, and that's what
I learned.
Selling really is scientific,selling is a skill.
It is the profession of sales.
Anybody can literally learnsales and my first paying client
was an architect'm an architect.
(16:37):
I don't know sales Like you'regoing to know sales, and he was
a great client and great resultsbecause selling is very
scientific, it is very specific.
People are very predictablewhen you know what to look for,
(16:58):
how to elicit the responses, andso that's why it changed my
life, like I said, then Istarted working with Steve
one-on-one and that kind ofin-depth mentorship from
somebody that knows what they'redoing.
Because Steve, like he's as oldas my father, you know in his
generation.
So having an experienced person, you know, calm, but old school
(17:19):
, right, he's hard ass.
He would rip me up, man.
I'd have to record my calls,he'd break them down with me.
I mean just brutal.
But if you want to get good,you know, watch, game, film you.
Someone's asking themselves.
Am I good at sales.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
What I've, at least in my experience.
What I found is being apersonable person doesn't
necessarily mean that you'regood at sales.
And so what are some of thoselike foundational building
blocks for building up yoursales acumen?
Speaker 3 (18:05):
Yeah, Well, you always hear the adage oh, you
have the gift of gab.
You've never met a stranger.
You know you should get intosales.
No, you should get into HR.
Speaker 2 (18:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (18:17):
Right, I'm good with people.
I want to work with people.
Well, as a salesperson, you'renot going to work with many
people.
You have a lot of alone time,you know.
Conversely, as you get to, youneed to sell within your company
.
So, if you're still at acompany, then you know you're
working with operations, you'reworking with finance, You're
working with all the leadershipstaff, you're working with
(18:38):
marketing.
So you're working with a lot ofinternal people, right.
But you know the gift of gaband all that.
You know you can sell ice creamto an Eskimo.
Those are all wrong, 100% wrong.
No, those are all wrong, 100%wrong.
Great salespeople are empathetic, right, which is vastly
(19:02):
different than sympathetic.
Sympathetic, you know, is oh,look you.
You know you fell down and hurtyour ankle.
I'm going to twist my ankle andlay down with you.
How does that help either of us?
You know, oh, you fell off theboat.
I'm going to jump my ankle andlay down with you.
How does that help either of us?
Oh, you fell off the boat.
I'm going to jump in the boatwith you or jump in the water
with you, unless you have a lifejacket.
Why so?
(19:24):
Empathetic means I understandyour point of view.
I see things through your eyes,from your perspective, but I
know how to help you alleviatethe pain and the frustration
that you're going through.
Great salespeople ask greatquestions.
(19:46):
Great salespeople listen to theanswers.
Okay, great salespeople are notworried about the outcome.
Okay, steve taught me.
You know.
Selling is a calling serving God.
I haven't said this in a longtime.
Selling is a calling.
(20:06):
Serving is its purpose.
Serving is its purpose,questioning is the process and a
sale may be the solution.
Okay, I have told more peopleno than yes.
Over all my years of selling,at least on my own right, I've
sold a lot of software.
People come to me I want to buythat.
Why do you want to buy it?
(20:27):
Well, you know, I saw AlexHormozy uses that software.
I want to get it.
Tell me about your business.
Well, it's just me, you know,and I do like one hour a day on
the side.
Okay, you're not ready for AlexRamosi's tools, you know.
So I've literally told morepeople no than yes.
So so I say I'm not worriedabout the outcome.
(20:49):
You know, let's, let's seewhat's going on.
It's just like a doctor.
You know what is a good bedsidemanner?
A good bedside manner is justthe doctor listening and not
rushing.
Now they may come in and let'ssay there's an outbreak of
measles.
Let's say, and you show up, thedoctor looks at you and you're
(21:09):
covered in red bumps and feverand cough or whatever.
I mean he knows, in one half ofone second you have the measles
.
Ok, but and maybe you knowyou're like man, I'm just here,
I made my copay, can I just geta prescription?
Ok, good, get out.
Great, you'll love that doctor.
But you know, usually you go inwith some symptoms like I'm not
(21:30):
sure it could be sinus infection, it could be bronchial, like
I've been going through some.
Right, I ended up with a sinusinfection.
You know, my son had the flu.
I had the flu.
He got sick again literally twoweeks later.
Another fever.
I just got a sinus infection,which I always do.
So you want the doctor to listen.
Tell me what's going on.
How long has this been aproblem?
(21:50):
Have you gotten this before?
Oh, you have a history of this.
How have you treated it in thepast?
You know, on a scale of one to10, how does this compare to the
last time you had it?
Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.
Do you have any allergies?
On and on and on.
Okay, here's what I think.
Here's my recommendation.
(22:17):
Okay, it's that listeningPeople, you know, nobody ever
changes their mind.
(22:37):
We reach a new conclusion whenwe are given new information and
can process it right.
Right, turn it into knowledge,wisdom that exposes the truth to
us.
Ok, so that's why I hate theword pitching.
Hey, pitch me.
You know, I'm like I'm notpitching, I'm literally not
trying to sell you anything.
I'm trying to help you come toyour own realization.
(23:00):
Okay, again, using the doctoranalogy, if I well, actually, a
few months ago, my knee was justswollen, gushy you know, but it
didn't hurt.
But I'd had surgery when Inoticed it and I'm like, damn,
what is going on here?
Right, so I go see the doctor.
(23:23):
So I had to treat my otherstuff.
Then I went to an orthopedicsurgeon.
He's like, oh, it'll just getbetter on its own.
Like what, the how?
Do you know that?
Now, he was a cool dude.
I mean, he, they took x-rays,he wiggled it, he jiggled it, he
poked it, he prodded, it said,yeah, you're going to be fine.
I'm like, okay, I trusted hisdiagnosis and recommendation,
(23:48):
right, but in prescription, andI was thankful.
But it's like, all right, I didfeel heard, I felt understood
and, again, because there was nopain, I was okay.
But he couldn't have called meand said imagine getting a cold
call.
Hey, how do your knees feel?
Are they swollen?
Do your ankles pop?
Do you have stiffness when youget up and down?
(24:10):
You should come see me, youweirdo.
No, okay, so it wasn't the painwhat brought me to the hospital
.
I went to the ER three times inSeptember and October and ended
up having surgery, and so nobodyhad to sell me to go to the ER,
to the ER, right, the pain wasbad enough.
(24:39):
I'm like, help me.
So when we're talking with ourprospects, we have to get them
to start to recognize, becausewhen we're calling them, when
we're emailing them and they'renot calling us, they have not
recognized the pain that theyhave, its seriousness and its
ramifications, because we allonly have so much time, time,
(25:00):
money, energy.
So we're dealing with usuallywe're dealing with the urgent
and not the important, okay, so,as we start to talk with the
prospect, so, using the doctoranalogy, right, a chiropractor
could run some ads and say hey,you know, you, you a man, you
know over the age of 40, maybeused to be athletic.
(25:21):
But you're fighting.
You know you're stiff stairsmaybe just not quite lifting as
much as you used to.
Maybe you're sitting in a chairlong hours throughout the day
and you notice you're gettingtired, lack of focus, some brain
(25:42):
fog, hip tightness, blah, blah,blah, and it's affecting
playing with your kids doingchores around the house.
Yes, would you like to addressthat, naturally, without the
harmful effects of medicationand prescription drugs or
surgery?
Yes, come on, in.
First visit is free.
(26:02):
Okay, so I'm bubbling up theissues, but the prospect has to
say, yes, that's an issue to meand I'm willing to take time out
of my day for the appointmentand I recognize it may be a
$200,000, $500,000, $5,000treatment plan over the next six
or 12 months to get me to apoint where I don't have that
(26:24):
stiffness, don't have that pain,don't have those migraines,
blah, blah, blah.
Right, so you got to followthat process and get.
So you ask good questions andlisten and make the prospect go
huh, you know you're on theright track.
When the prospect says huh,that's a good question.
(26:45):
Wow, I've never been asked thatbefore.
Wow, I never looked at it fromthat angle.
Right, because that's our jobis to bring some value and we
prove our competency by thequestions that we ask.
You know, I can show up and say,hey, david, you need this Bose
(27:07):
speaker.
It's got a rubber cover, anon-slip, it's got a D-ring.
You can put it on your backpack.
It's Bluetooth, it's Bose, it'sgot a USB-C port.
It's oh.
But you're like, I don't evenget out of my, I don't need a
speaker, what you know.
But now if you ask, hey, I'mlooking for a speaker, I see
(27:32):
this on Reddit all the time.
I'm in the CRM subreddit,literally every day.
Somebody says, hey, what CRMshould I buy?
It's like saying, what womanshould I marry?
What car should I buy?
Do you live in the snow?
Do you live on the beach?
Do you have a long commute?
Do you have kids?
Do you have a dog?
(27:53):
I mean, there's 27 questionsI've got to ask you before I can
make a recommendation.
So, but if you ask, I'm like,hey, do you need it to be
portable or is it going to be,you know, stationary?
Okay, portable.
Do you need it to be, you know,waterproof, water resistant,
whatever?
Yes, okay, now we can startdiving in, narrowing it down and
(28:18):
so.
But by asking those questions,you know what about charging.
Do you want traditional, likelightning bolt, you know USB or
the new USB-C?
What's the USB-C?
Well, you've probably seen it.
Oh, yeah, the new one?
Oh, I didn't even think aboutthat.
Yeah, that would suck to buylast year's model and now
(28:38):
everything's.
Yeah, I need the new reports,okay.
So, because I ask a forethought, like a forward-looking
question, something you haven'tconsidered and you know USB-C's
been around but you just didn'tthink about it because it's not
your world.
Now you're like oh, that's sucha good point.
Now they're liking me becauseI'm proving my competency by
(29:03):
asking questions they haven'tthought of.
Now they're trusting me.
You know, everybody buys frompeople they know, like and trust
.
Everybody focuses on knowing,being known and liked.
So everybody's a professionalvisitor.
Being trusted is really aboutthe only thing that matters.
Knowing you is 1%, liking youis 1%, trusting you 98%.
(29:24):
If I don't trust you, if I knowyou, I know, and like a lot of
people, that I won't give themmoney.
I won't let them watch my kids.
They're fun to have a beer with.
They're fun to go golfing with.
They're fun to do jujitsu with,okay.
So you need to understand thevalue of trust and how do you
build that trust in yourprospects.
(29:46):
It's it's all that reallymatters.
Speaker 2 (29:49):
Very nice.
I really like that approach andthe know, like and trust.
That's key to the sales process.
All right, wes.
Now, one thing I want to talkabout is it seems like there was
a big inflection point duringCOVID on just how business is
done, how communication happens,and I'm interested in your
(30:11):
thoughts on in know.
In my opinion, you can't beatface-to-face personal
interaction.
However, zoom has been one ofthe fastest growing stocks in
the S&P 500, and there's areason for that.
And so what have been someobservations you've had and what
are some ways people can excelin this post-COVID era?
Speaker 3 (31:00):
Yeah, things changed a little Since I got into high
tech in the summer of 2000,.
I've making a decision.
There were demos, there weretrials, so we would meet in
person, but the initial wasalways a call, email, setting
things up remotely, then showingup in person.
(31:21):
When I launched the SalesWhisperer in 06, I didn't have a
website then, so things weredone in person.
But I would cold call, invitethem to a workshop, which was,
of course, done in person, andthen we would do they'd sign on
for ongoing training.
2008, I became an Infusionsoftpartner, so they're called
(31:44):
KeepNow.
So I started selling softwarefor marketing automation, sales
and marketing automation.
I built my first website andfrom that point on I probably
met 1% of my clients ever.
Okay, so this is going back to2008.
(32:07):
I first started podcasting in2009.
Started the sales podcast in2013.
I didn't continue it from 2009.
I had a partner and we're stillfriends, we just weren't good
co-hosts.
In 2013, I started a salespodcast and have done it nonstop
ever since and it's always beenremote.
You know I was using Skype backin the day, I mean whatever the
(32:29):
free tools were.
So I still I mean I very rarelysell in person.
I meet very few of my clientsface to face, so people are a
little harder to reach nowbecause of COVID and so many
(32:50):
work from home and peopleforwarding their office line to
their working off the cell andspam calls and you know, unknown
calls.
But still, at the end of theday, we're still selling to
humans.
You know the human brain andhow you connect has not changed
(33:13):
in thousands of years and so youmay have to do more touches,
but I mean Zig Ziglar wastraining this 60 years ago.
You may have to leave, do moretouches, but I mean Zig Ziglar
was training this 60 years ago.
You know takes, you know five,five nose.
For you to yes, right, yougotta take seven to 14 touches,
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
But that's still true.
Um, leave a good voicemail, senda good email.
(33:35):
Um, engage with them on social.
Don't be a stalker, don't be ame too Lead with value.
Mail them something physical.
I don't get much stuff in themail.
I don't get very many goodvoicemails.
I get mostly spam emails.
(33:57):
And I can tell because in myLinkedIn account I have a dash
after my name Wes Dash because Ilearned just coincidentally,
years ago I put a red phone inmy name.
A sales guy in the UK had one.
I was like I like that kind ofstand out in the crowd and I
noticed how many emails andLinkedIn messages I got that
(34:21):
would say hi, wes, and then likea bunch of dashes, question
marks, stars, because itcouldn't transcode or translate
that little red phone Right.
So I knew they were scrapingand I knew it was a mass email,
you know, but I still Iliterally every single day.
(34:42):
All right, wes Dasher, this isa personal message to you.
I'm like this is not a personalmessage.
You know, delete.
So stand out right.
Use technology to sword, siftand separate, then take the time
(35:02):
to connect.
Butift and separate, then takethe time to connect.
Make a real video and don'tjust go hi, because we're all we
don't trust.
I know, if you don't say myname, I know it's probably not
right and they have the thingsnow right.
They'll hold up like awhiteboard.
You'll see the GIF, right, thescreensaver, and your name will
(35:24):
be on it.
Hi, wes.
Well, you know, dude, that's10-year-old technology.
At least it's doing some massmerge.
It was fine 10 years ago andsome people still don't know the
game.
But when you get caught, whenyou get caught.
I talk about know, like andtrust.
Now, I know you, I do not likeyou and I do not trust you.
Delete and dude every day,about 10 times a day.
(35:45):
Report is spam.
You want to block?
Yes, block, these people Now.
Granted, they probably have ahundred email addresses, but
they'll get back to him later,but he's not making it one
little tiny bit harder?
You know to stand out, so behuman.
Speaker 2 (36:04):
Yeah Well, one last question I want to ask before we
get to the fire round is tellus a little bit more about Sales
Whisper.
Speaker 3 (36:17):
Who's the ideal candidate to join the force,
people with a whole lot of moneythat don't want to hear from me
yeah, yeah, actually, thoseirritate me.
I hate.
I have people they've given memoney and I had one guy just
last year and I know him.
I know him and his wife and forthree weeks we didn't talk.
(36:38):
He was traveling, whatever.
And I called his wife.
She said here's his calendar,just start booking calls.
I literally booked like ninecalls over three weeks.
You know, like dude, we got totalk.
You're paying me money to helpyou grow and you're just back in
your old routine.
I'm not going to let you throwthis money away and I'm not
(37:00):
going to take it for free.
So it's crazy, but people willdo it.
We do it all the time, right,we get a book.
We don't read it by a course,we don't log in.
So there's a few differenttypes.
You know I still sell a lot ofsoftware, mainly still Keep and
HubSpot Keep since 08, hubspotsince 2014.
(37:23):
So I help people upgrade anddowngrade.
You know, I had a client justend of last year.
He had four Infusionsoftaccounts and a servicing ticket
account and it was just heneeded HubSpot.
So we're helping him porteverything over.
It's like a nine month project,huge deal.
But sometimes you outgrow somesoftware.
(37:43):
Sometimes people jump intoHubSpot and it's too much, but
they lock you in for a year.
They're like man, I need todowngrade to something that's
more affordable.
So I'll help them do that.
So I'll help them find tools,optimize their tools.
I've worked with damn near allof them Go, high level, nimble,
entreport, active campaign,salesforce, you know.
(38:04):
So I can help people.
So if you've got tools, you'renot sure what to buy next.
I've got a crmquizcom so youcan put that in the show notes.
A free tool.
You ask you like 23 multiplechoice questions and it spits
out results and gives you linksto like six or seven popular
tools for small businesses.
It's not good for like anenterprise, but for the
(38:26):
solopreneur to an SMB.
So I help them find tools.
I help them create cadencesright, it's kind of a popular
term, but that make the call,send the email, write a
handwritten note, connect onsocial media.
Send the email, write ahandwritten note, connect on
social media.
Wait two days.
Call number two needs to bedifferent.
Email number two needs to bedifferent.
(38:46):
So help them create thosecadences.
Role playing for salespeople.
I do a little bit.
It turns into executivecoaching.
You know I don't considermyself a coach, I'm not a life
coach, but I mean I'm 54 yearsold, I've got seven kids About
that, my fourth grandkid.
I just know stuff.
So people have hired me and Ido like working with folks on
(39:11):
just you know they're anexecutive or an owner and it
isn't only at the top, you know,and they can't talk to people.
They can't talk to a peer, theycan't talk to people.
They can't talk to a peer, theycan't.
They can't talk to staff.
You know there's things maybethey're embarrassed about.
I should know this, but I don't.
I don't know to turn to, orit's just something new, like I
(39:34):
don't know where to turn, what Ineed to.
There's a lot of times I tellpeople, look, when the student
is ready, the teacher willappear.
And yeah, I know stuff, but atthe end of the day I'm more
helping you pull out of yourselfand be confident in just
following your gut.
You know, so often we get intotrouble.
(39:55):
Every time I've gotten intotrouble in business and for so
long I didn't trust myself.
I did great in sales but then Iwould invest in a cigar
franchise and invest with a guy.
We bought an apartment complex.
I mean stuff I didn't knowabout and I couldn't control.
But I'm like, oh, those guysare older, they got some gray
(40:16):
hair, they know what they'redoing.
They didn't.
And there was always a littlepart of me like maybe I
shouldn't do that.
But then it's like, well, welike cigars, I like these guys
and this guy.
He owned 10 single-family homes, so an apartment's not really
any different, it's a whole lotdifferent.
(40:38):
So people need someone just tobounce ideas off of someone, to
just kick them in the butt andsay you're right, your intuition
is right, go, Go forward withabandon.
You know so.
And then in my inner circleit's super affordable.
That's for individuals.
It was like me with Steve Clarkback in the day.
(40:58):
You know you can join for $50 aweek, you can join for $500 a
week, you can join for $500 aquarter.
You know I've got it stupidaffordable.
I don't want anybody to say Ican't afford it.
Live calls every week, videoseries on demand.
You get my book.
I mean you can ask questions atany time.
So you know, I try to help thebeginner, I try to help the
intermediate, try to help thehigh level.
(41:20):
It's truly what I love doing,right.
Speaker 2 (41:29):
I love sales training , marketing, a little bit of
life coaching, helping peoplejust clear out the cobwebs and
go kick ass.
Very nice, very nice.
Well, we'll definitely post alink to the CRMquizcom as well
as Sales Whisperer.
Now, before we wrap up theepisode, we have something
called the Fire Round.
It's four questions we askevery guest at the end of the
episode Are you ready?
Bring it All right?
(41:49):
What's your favorite businessbook?
Speaker 3 (41:53):
It would be that series from Roy Williams.
So he's got three.
So look up Roy Williams, theWizard of Ads.
It'd be too much to say thethree, but Roy H Williams, the
Wizard of Ads, he's got three ofthem.
Speaker 2 (42:06):
All right.
What are your hobbies outsideof sales and business?
Speaker 3 (42:11):
Getting my chin kicked in jujitsu.
I've trained jujitsu eightyears now.
I go five or six times a day,so I'm a little bit hooked.
Speaker 2 (42:22):
Nice, nice, nice.
What is one thing you do notmiss about working for the man?
Speaker 3 (42:30):
Stupid, redundant reports.
You know I always usetechnology.
I remember we deployedSalesforcecom at that tech
company that moved me out hereand I kept it updated.
And my boss man he'd call me Ineed that deployed Salesforcecom
at that tech company that movedme out here and I kept it
updated.
And my boss man, he called me Ineed that Excel spreadsheet.
It's in the CRM, you know.
Are you telling me it's 100%?
Why do I have to create areport and email you a
(42:53):
spreadsheet when I'm justlogging into the tool?
Are you saying it's 100%accurate?
Yes, it is up to date, becauseyou told us to keep it up to
date and I was, like I guess,the only one that kept it up to
date.
So don't bog me down withredundant tasks.
Speaker 2 (43:08):
I like it, you and me both.
And last question what do youthink sets?
Speaker 3 (43:21):
apart successful entrepreneurs from those who
give up, fail or never getstarted.
All of sales and business isfinding a need and filling it.
So maybe alluding like what Iwas talking about before,
because we hear this adage youknow, do what you love and
you'll never work a day in yourlife.
It's like bull crap.
I think one of the worst thingsis to have a hobby, something
that you love, and it becomesyour source of income, and then
(43:45):
it's a grind.
Okay, that's real misery.
So, you know, bloom whereyou're planted, seek to serve.
You know, I've sold mobile homes, I've sold stocks and bonds,
I've sold high tech and I lovedall of those things.
I don't know if the worldconspired or God had a plan for
(44:05):
me, you know, but I got all ofthose ended.
So, but when you, if you knowhow to just find a need and fill
it, it doesn't matter what youdo right.
You're working with people,you're helping them solve
problems, you're making theworld a better place.
(44:27):
So I think that's it right.
If you can find a need and fillit, you'll always feel
satisfied that you're on theright track.
You're doing the right thingsfor the right reasons.
Speaker 2 (44:36):
Very nice, very nice.
And if people are interested ingetting in touch with you, what
is the best way?
Speaker 3 (44:43):
I'm all over the web.
Like you said, the saleswhisperer is what I've
trademarked, but I'm everywhereLinkedIn, Instagram.
I'm on those two the most.
I'm on Twitter a good bit, soif you like any of those, find
me there.
You can email me.
You can get my 12 Weeks to Peakhabit tracker.
(45:05):
That's free 12weekstopeakcom,but you get emails from me my
cell phone's on there and it'sme right.
It's not no VAs, there's nobodyacting like me.
You get me.
Speaker 2 (45:18):
Very nice, very nice.
Well, you give me Very nice,very nice.
Well, wes, I want to thank youfor being a guest on the firing
man podcast and looking forwardto staying in touch.
Yeah, man, thanks for having me.
Welcome everyone to the Firing the man podcast, a
show for anyone who wants to betheir own boss.
If you sit in a cubicle everyday and know you are capable of
more, then join us.
This show will help you build abusiness and grow your passive
income streams in just a fewshort hours per day.
And now your hosts, serialentrepreneurs David Shomer and
(00:22):
Ken Wilson.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Welcome everyone to the Firing the man podcast.
In today's episode, we arethrilled to have Wes Schaefer,
also known as the SalesWhisperer, join us.
Wes is a sales expert, speaker,author and entrepreneur who has
dedicated his career to helpingprofessionals and businesses
succeed in sales and marketing.
With experience in the AirForce and nearly three decades
(00:47):
in sales, he has developedproven strategies to help people
sell professionally,predictably and profitably.
Wes has authored two books,produced over 700 podcast
episodes since 2009, and spokenworldwide on sales and marketing
.
His expertise in connectingwith customers, leveraging
automation and integratingmarketing into the sales process
(01:10):
has made him a sought-aftermentor in the business world.
Today we'll discuss his journey, his approach to sales and the
key insights he shares withbusiness leaders looking to
improve their sales process.
Wes, welcome to the show.
Hey man, thanks for having meAbsolutely.
So, to start things off, canyou share with our audience a
(01:31):
little bit about your journeyfrom serving in the Air Force to
becoming the sales whisperer?
Speaker 3 (01:39):
It was a bumpy journey.
I got out of the Air Force in97 and jumped right into sales.
We'd been married barely twoyears, we already had an infant
son.
We had another on the way wedidn't know about.
And I did my five years andjumped into commission sales.
(02:01):
And it was bumpy, lots of upsand downs.
I got into high tech right asthe as the dotcom bubble was
imploding, we just didn't knowit.
After six years of that chaos Iwas like man, being on my own
cannot be any more chaotic thanworking in high tech.
Working in high tech.
(02:22):
So in 2006, I had actually Ibought a course, a guy I didn't
even know him.
I knew the guy that referredhim and you're talking about
know, like and trust, right.
So it was a good referral.
It was an affordable class.
It was a 12-week teleclass, soyou had to sign up in 05 and it
(02:44):
didn't start till early 06.
They limited the seating, like35 people.
It was $600.
It was a conference call.
You know, this is before socialmedia, right Before Facebook
groups, before school, beforeDiscord and telegram and slack
and everything else, right,whatsapp.
(03:06):
So you, you got a PDF, you got12 phone calls and um, and it
changed my life and I ended uphiring the guy that taught that
class as my mentor became hisfirst licensee.
My mentor became his firstlicensee and so by the end of 06
, I think it was September 1stof 06, I bought the domain name
(03:30):
the sales whisperer.
I was literally watching thedog whisperer and I remember
distinctly he said I Irehabilitate dogs and I train
their owners.
And I thought I rehabilitatesalespeople and train their
managers and I bought the name.
Ten days later somebody emailedme, asked me if I would sell
(03:53):
that URL.
I was like man, I just boughtit, you know.
Then I trademarked it and sothat began the journey.
You know, I became a licenseeof Steve's.
I had his content and juststarted cold calling locally
teaching, sales training, verynice, very nice.
And now here we are, 19 yearslater.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
Outstanding.
Well, I'm looking forward todiving into that.
One of the things that you hadmentioned was you were working
in high tech.
It was highly stressful and yousaid to yourself going out on
my own could be no morestressful than what I'm
currently doing and the show'scalled Firing the man.
I would say that was yourFiring the man moment, and we've
(04:33):
got a lot of people listeningthat are in a high-pressure job,
high-stress job, and it'ssomething that they're
contemplating, and so whatadvice would you give to those
people who are thinking aboutgoing out on their own and
betting on themselves?
Speaker 3 (04:50):
To be accurate, I said it was chaotic, you are
right.
Yes, not stressful.
Yes, I was actually doing wellin sales.
I was laid off from two jobs orthree jobs.
What was that?
Three jobs and within a fewyears I forget.
But twice on my birthday I waslike I need to change my
birthday.
(05:10):
I was over quota in 04 when Igot laid off from my first high
tech job Before my severance ranout.
The former president of thatcompany had become the CEO of a
tech company in Austin, which iswhere I was living, and he
(05:31):
picked me up right away and Iworked for them for three years.
That moved me out to Californiaand so I was one of three out
of 33 salespeople that had mademy number.
The previous year.
I still got to let go, so Ikind of cracked the code on
sales.
I was making good money.
(05:51):
But yeah, it was totally chaotic, like nobody knows what they're
doing.
You look around it's like I'malmost 55 years old, about to
have my fourth grandkid.
I don't know what the hell'sgoing on.
You look around and go oh, whenI'm that guy's age, I'll have
my stuff together, like,hopefully, maybe you know.
It's like there's no owner'smanual.
(06:13):
Man, we're all figuring thisstuff out.
This is the first time I'veever been this age, so I mean,
we're all figuring it out, andso, yeah, it was chaotic.
Always there's stressful times,regardless of what you're going
through.
But my advice would be, like mydad always says, if you think
(06:34):
you're desperate, you are Okay.
So calm down.
People do allow themselves toget stressed and it's like look,
there's no saber-toothed tigersout there.
Okay, you are not going to beeaten.
We don't live in a war-torncountry.
You know, we're not in NorthKorea.
Figure it out, right, there areoptions out there.
(06:56):
There are free resources, thereare paid, affordable resources.
You can start your own right.
So you've got to take a stepback and look, firing the man is
fine, and from anentrepreneurial standpoint, you
know, the US is a great country.
It's what separates us fromeverybody else, is that
entrepreneurial spirit, and youcan't really explain it Like
(07:18):
you're born into it, like itseeps into your blood, kind of
like when you're in Texas, right, it's like.
You know, I lived in Texas formany years and, and it's a, it's
a state of mind, right, it'slike what this feels different
here, and so being entrepreneuris great.
I think sometimes, though,there's too we, it's
romanticized too much and andalmost we almost look down on
(07:43):
people like that aren't doingtheir own thing.
It's like the greatest salesmanI know.
He's a friend of mine, a mentor.
I worked with him at a coupleof different companies and he's
never been on his own.
He tried it for a minute, hatedit, and he's literally the
number one salesman at one oflike a fortune 100 company.
(08:04):
He's probably like literallythe best salesman in the world
right now.
It makes a lot of money, okay,so you know.
So, first of all, bloom whereyou're planted, okay, if you do
want to fire the man, if you dowant to go out on your own,
pissing everyone off, you know,and leaving a bad taste
(08:26):
everyone's mouth as you leave,is not really a good exit, right
.
So do all you can where you are, and you know if you do, plan
on leaving.
So here's the beauty of it isthat you can do what you must do
to win in anything, and that isto detach, detach from the
(08:50):
outcome.
You know, and it sunk into mewhen I started to learn how to
play golf my dad bought me golflessons for my 23rd birthday and
I didn't know if he loved me orhated me for doing that.
Cause golf is addictive and, um, I remember I get.
When you watch golf, you watchthese professionals.
You know two foot three footputt.
(09:11):
They take the same amount oftime lining it up as a 40 foot
putt.
Why are they doing that Sameroutine?
Because that routine, like abasketball player, you know
dribble, dribble, dribble on thefree throw line, spin, spin
twice.
You know bite your tongue,close your right eye, shoot the
(09:31):
shot.
Getting into that rhythm helpsthem detach from the outcome.
It puts them into the properstate of mind to execute the
task at hand.
Okay and so.
So I tell people all the timethe task at hand, okay and so.
So I tell people all the timewe, we're not in charge of sales
, we're not in control of it.
Selling like weight loss is alagging indicator.
(09:52):
Okay, if you want to lose 20pounds in 90 days, when you get
on the scale in 90 days, it'sonly going to be proof of the
work you did or did not do.
Same thing with selling.
At the end of the quarteryou'll look back.
Did you hit your numbersMeaning?
Did you prospect?
Did you call?
Did you email?
(10:13):
Did you direct mail?
Did you knock on doors?
Did you go on trade shows?
Did you engage properly onsocial media?
Did you send good emails?
It's a lagging indicator.
So you must detach from theoutcome.
Oh, this guy might yell at mewhen I call them.
Call them anyway.
That is your job.
Detach from the outcome.
So if you're somewhere that youwant to leave and I'm not saying
(10:36):
, don't care about the resultsor the quality of your work, you
want to make that putt, youwant to sink that free throw.
But worrying about it,stressing about it, won't help.
So calm down and say how can Iput my best foot forward?
And if you're going to leaveanyway here's the ironic thing
(10:56):
when you're not all bound up andworried about the results and
the outcome, you relax and a lotof times you end up doing
better.
Then you start doing better andyou maybe make more money, you
get more accolades andrecognition from the company,
maybe you get a promotion.
Now, all of a sudden, you're ina position to make the change
(11:19):
that you wanted.
Now you may not want to leave.
Wanted now, you may not want toleave, okay.
So but just understand that andlook and the attitude and the
reputation and the work habitsthat you ingrain and put into
practice while you're workingfor the man you're going to
carry over with you when you goton your own, you know so to
(11:42):
leaving some bad blood, gettingit bad blood, being pent up and
frustrated.
It's not a good way to entergoing out on your own.
So calm down, do good work,detach and again, if you truly
want to leave and they'regrinding you to dust, once you
detach and say you know what,I'm going to give you 40 hours.
You're going to give me foreight hours a day.
(12:03):
You're not getting me for 10hours a day, 12 hours a day.
You're not getting 70, 80 hoursout of me a week.
If you want to leave, right,start to put your foot down and
you never know, they may beasking 70, 80 hours of you
because you're a pushover andyou allow it, you know.
So there's a lot you can unpackthere.
(12:26):
So you know, if you're goingout on your own, go out for the
right reasons, in the right way.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
You know there's a lot of great, great parts of
your response, and one of them Iwant to take note of is that
working for the man is not a badthing and it's not evil.
Speaker 3 (12:44):
You're not a punk, right, but you watch the Andrew
Tate's of the world.
No, you're not making a milliondollars.
You're a worthless human being.
I'm like you're a worthlesshuman being, yeah, yeah, we're
even saying that.
Speaker 2 (12:55):
Yeah, and while the show is called Firing the man, I
have worked for the man andI've learned a tremendous amount
.
I've worked with awesome peopleand it's that idea of
entrepreneurship andintrapreneurship and I like your
analogy bloom where you'replanted and so, yeah, really
(13:16):
good stuff there.
Now, to move on, you hadmentioned when you took that
sales course with Steve Ibelieve was the instructor you
said it changed your life, whichis a dramatic statement.
Explain that.
What about it changed your life?
Speaker 3 (13:33):
So it changed for a lot of reasons.
One, the company that put onthat workshop is in Austin and
the guy's name is Roy Williams.
He owns the Wizard of Ads andI've been reading his stuff and
he would do like once a month hedid a free seminar down at his
office and back then he was justin a commercial building kind
(13:56):
of a strip mall sort of.
You know like four or fiveoffices just you know an
insurance place, you know hisoffice, or five offices just you
know an insurance place, youknow his office, just kind of an
industrial, um, little stripmall kind of open air area.
Um, when you attended one ofhis classes once you attend one
(14:18):
I don't know if you can tell I'mtalking funny Yesterday in
jujitsu this black belt put hisknee in my chin, I bit my tongue
, so I'm fighting this call forthree and a half weeks, got a
swollen tongue, so anyway, hey,you haven't been punching the
face lately.
So you know what, make the nextcall.
They're not going to eat you,but anyway, once you attend one
(14:41):
of his classes, all futureclasses are 50% off because
you're a graduate.
So this was by far the cheapestclass he ever offered and it
was the one at the time.
It was the only teleclass heever offered, because by that
point I was living in SouthernCalifornia, where I am now, my
wife's from here and I wascovering the West Coast now my
(15:08):
wife's from here and I wascovering the West Coast.
So from like early 2001, maybeuntil 04, I went to his monthly
thing like all the time, sobeing able to do a $600 class,
and I couldn't get my company toofficially pay for it.
But my manager, because I wasdoing well, he let me kind of
bury my kind of pad my expensesover like four or five months so
(15:29):
it eventually got paid for it.
I just couldn't do it outright,so hey.
So now I'm an alumni and I'vegone to at least a dozen classes
ever since and it's a.
He's built a campus, lodging isfree when you sign up and food
and great drinks.
I mean it's awesome.
So that changed my life,hanging out with good people,
(15:51):
seeing that evolve, get smart,smarter on sales and marketing.
But then working with Steve,steve gave me a process and a
system.
I was a good salesperson, a lotof that was natural.
System I was a good salesperson, a lot of it was natural.
I went to the Air Force Academyso I had good leadership
(16:17):
training, communication training.
I'd gone through a lot so Icarry myself well in a crowd,
whatever.
So I had all that.
But Steve showed me the scienceof sales.
But Steve showed me the scienceof sales Right, and that's what
I learned.
Selling really is scientific,selling is a skill.
It is the profession of sales.
Anybody can literally learnsales and my first paying client
was an architect'm an architect.
(16:37):
I don't know sales Like you'regoing to know sales, and he was
a great client and great resultsbecause selling is very
scientific, it is very specific.
People are very predictablewhen you know what to look for,
(16:58):
how to elicit the responses, andso that's why it changed my
life, like I said, then Istarted working with Steve
one-on-one and that kind ofin-depth mentorship from
somebody that knows what they'redoing.
Because Steve, like he's as oldas my father, you know in his
generation.
So having an experienced person, you know, calm, but old school
(17:19):
, right, he's hard ass.
He would rip me up, man.
I'd have to record my calls,he'd break them down with me.
I mean just brutal.
But if you want to get good,you know, watch, game, film you.
Someone's asking themselves.
Am I good at sales.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
What I've, at least in my experience.
What I found is being apersonable person doesn't
necessarily mean that you'regood at sales.
And so what are some of thoselike foundational building
blocks for building up yoursales acumen?
Speaker 3 (18:05):
Yeah, Well, you always hear the adage oh, you
have the gift of gab.
You've never met a stranger.
You know you should get intosales.
No, you should get into HR.
Speaker 2 (18:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (18:17):
Right, I'm good with people.
I want to work with people.
Well, as a salesperson, you'renot going to work with many
people.
You have a lot of alone time,you know.
Conversely, as you get to, youneed to sell within your company
.
So, if you're still at acompany, then you know you're
working with operations, you'reworking with finance, You're
working with all the leadershipstaff, you're working with
(18:38):
marketing.
So you're working with a lot ofinternal people, right.
But you know the gift of gaband all that.
You know you can sell ice creamto an Eskimo.
Those are all wrong, 100% wrong.
No, those are all wrong, 100%wrong.
Great salespeople are empathetic, right, which is vastly
(19:02):
different than sympathetic.
Sympathetic, you know, is oh,look you.
You know you fell down and hurtyour ankle.
I'm going to twist my ankle andlay down with you.
How does that help either of us?
You know, oh, you fell off theboat.
I'm going to jump my ankle andlay down with you.
How does that help either of us?
Oh, you fell off the boat.
I'm going to jump in the boatwith you or jump in the water
with you, unless you have a lifejacket.
Why so?
(19:24):
Empathetic means I understandyour point of view.
I see things through your eyes,from your perspective, but I
know how to help you alleviatethe pain and the frustration
that you're going through.
Great salespeople ask greatquestions.
(19:46):
Great salespeople listen to theanswers.
Okay, great salespeople are notworried about the outcome.
Okay, steve taught me.
You know.
Selling is a calling serving God.
I haven't said this in a longtime.
Selling is a calling.
(20:06):
Serving is its purpose.
Serving is its purpose,questioning is the process and a
sale may be the solution.
Okay, I have told more peopleno than yes.
Over all my years of selling,at least on my own right, I've
sold a lot of software.
People come to me I want to buythat.
Why do you want to buy it?
(20:27):
Well, you know, I saw AlexHormozy uses that software.
I want to get it.
Tell me about your business.
Well, it's just me, you know,and I do like one hour a day on
the side.
Okay, you're not ready for AlexRamosi's tools, you know.
So I've literally told morepeople no than yes.
So so I say I'm not worriedabout the outcome.
(20:49):
You know, let's, let's seewhat's going on.
It's just like a doctor.
You know what is a good bedsidemanner?
A good bedside manner is justthe doctor listening and not
rushing.
Now they may come in and let'ssay there's an outbreak of
measles.
Let's say, and you show up, thedoctor looks at you and you're
(21:09):
covered in red bumps and feverand cough or whatever.
I mean he knows, in one half ofone second you have the measles
.
Ok, but and maybe you knowyou're like man, I'm just here,
I made my copay, can I just geta prescription?
Ok, good, get out.
Great, you'll love that doctor.
But you know, usually you go inwith some symptoms like I'm not
(21:30):
sure it could be sinus infection, it could be bronchial, like
I've been going through some.
Right, I ended up with a sinusinfection.
You know, my son had the flu.
I had the flu.
He got sick again literally twoweeks later.
Another fever.
I just got a sinus infection,which I always do.
So you want the doctor to listen.
Tell me what's going on.
How long has this been aproblem?
(21:50):
Have you gotten this before?
Oh, you have a history of this.
How have you treated it in thepast?
You know, on a scale of one to10, how does this compare to the
last time you had it?
Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.
Do you have any allergies?
On and on and on.
Okay, here's what I think.
Here's my recommendation.
(22:17):
Okay, it's that listeningPeople, you know, nobody ever
changes their mind.
(22:37):
We reach a new conclusion whenwe are given new information and
can process it right.
Right, turn it into knowledge,wisdom that exposes the truth to
us.
Ok, so that's why I hate theword pitching.
Hey, pitch me.
You know, I'm like I'm notpitching, I'm literally not
trying to sell you anything.
I'm trying to help you come toyour own realization.
(23:00):
Okay, again, using the doctoranalogy, if I well, actually, a
few months ago, my knee was justswollen, gushy you know, but it
didn't hurt.
But I'd had surgery when Inoticed it and I'm like, damn,
what is going on here?
Right, so I go see the doctor.
(23:23):
So I had to treat my otherstuff.
Then I went to an orthopedicsurgeon.
He's like, oh, it'll just getbetter on its own.
Like what, the how?
Do you know that?
Now, he was a cool dude.
I mean, he, they took x-rays,he wiggled it, he jiggled it, he
poked it, he prodded, it said,yeah, you're going to be fine.
I'm like, okay, I trusted hisdiagnosis and recommendation,
(23:48):
right, but in prescription, andI was thankful.
But it's like, all right, I didfeel heard, I felt understood
and, again, because there was nopain, I was okay.
But he couldn't have called meand said imagine getting a cold
call.
Hey, how do your knees feel?
Are they swollen?
Do your ankles pop?
Do you have stiffness when youget up and down?
(24:10):
You should come see me, youweirdo.
No, okay, so it wasn't the painwhat brought me to the hospital
.
I went to the ER three times inSeptember and October and ended
up having surgery, and so nobodyhad to sell me to go to the ER,
to the ER, right, the pain wasbad enough.
(24:39):
I'm like, help me.
So when we're talking with ourprospects, we have to get them
to start to recognize, becausewhen we're calling them, when
we're emailing them and they'renot calling us, they have not
recognized the pain that theyhave, its seriousness and its
ramifications, because we allonly have so much time, time,
(25:00):
money, energy.
So we're dealing with usuallywe're dealing with the urgent
and not the important, okay, so,as we start to talk with the
prospect, so, using the doctoranalogy, right, a chiropractor
could run some ads and say hey,you know, you, you a man, you
know over the age of 40, maybeused to be athletic.
(25:21):
But you're fighting.
You know you're stiff stairsmaybe just not quite lifting as
much as you used to.
Maybe you're sitting in a chairlong hours throughout the day
and you notice you're gettingtired, lack of focus, some brain
(25:42):
fog, hip tightness, blah, blah,blah, and it's affecting
playing with your kids doingchores around the house.
Yes, would you like to addressthat, naturally, without the
harmful effects of medicationand prescription drugs or
surgery?
Yes, come on, in.
First visit is free.
(26:02):
Okay, so I'm bubbling up theissues, but the prospect has to
say, yes, that's an issue to meand I'm willing to take time out
of my day for the appointmentand I recognize it may be a
$200,000, $500,000, $5,000treatment plan over the next six
or 12 months to get me to apoint where I don't have that
(26:24):
stiffness, don't have that pain,don't have those migraines,
blah, blah, blah.
Right, so you got to followthat process and get.
So you ask good questions andlisten and make the prospect go
huh, you know you're on theright track.
When the prospect says huh,that's a good question.
(26:45):
Wow, I've never been asked thatbefore.
Wow, I never looked at it fromthat angle.
Right, because that's our jobis to bring some value and we
prove our competency by thequestions that we ask.
You know, I can show up and say,hey, david, you need this Bose
(27:07):
speaker.
It's got a rubber cover, anon-slip, it's got a D-ring.
You can put it on your backpack.
It's Bluetooth, it's Bose, it'sgot a USB-C port.
It's oh.
But you're like, I don't evenget out of my, I don't need a
speaker, what you know.
But now if you ask, hey, I'mlooking for a speaker, I see
(27:32):
this on Reddit all the time.
I'm in the CRM subreddit,literally every day.
Somebody says, hey, what CRMshould I buy?
It's like saying, what womanshould I marry?
What car should I buy?
Do you live in the snow?
Do you live on the beach?
Do you have a long commute?
Do you have kids?
Do you have a dog?
(27:53):
I mean, there's 27 questionsI've got to ask you before I can
make a recommendation.
So, but if you ask, I'm like,hey, do you need it to be
portable or is it going to be,you know, stationary?
Okay, portable.
Do you need it to be, you know,waterproof, water resistant,
whatever?
Yes, okay, now we can startdiving in, narrowing it down and
(28:18):
so.
But by asking those questions,you know what about charging.
Do you want traditional, likelightning bolt, you know USB or
the new USB-C?
What's the USB-C?
Well, you've probably seen it.
Oh, yeah, the new one?
Oh, I didn't even think aboutthat.
Yeah, that would suck to buylast year's model and now
(28:38):
everything's.
Yeah, I need the new reports,okay.
So, because I ask a forethought, like a forward-looking
question, something you haven'tconsidered and you know USB-C's
been around but you just didn'tthink about it because it's not
your world.
Now you're like oh, that's sucha good point.
Now they're liking me becauseI'm proving my competency by
(29:03):
asking questions they haven'tthought of.
Now they're trusting me.
You know, everybody buys frompeople they know, like and trust
.
Everybody focuses on knowing,being known and liked.
So everybody's a professionalvisitor.
Being trusted is really aboutthe only thing that matters.
Knowing you is 1%, liking youis 1%, trusting you 98%.
(29:24):
If I don't trust you, if I knowyou, I know, and like a lot of
people, that I won't give themmoney.
I won't let them watch my kids.
They're fun to have a beer with.
They're fun to go golfing with.
They're fun to do jujitsu with,okay.
So you need to understand thevalue of trust and how do you
build that trust in yourprospects.
(29:46):
It's it's all that reallymatters.
Speaker 2 (29:49):
Very nice.
I really like that approach andthe know, like and trust.
That's key to the sales process.
All right, wes.
Now, one thing I want to talkabout is it seems like there was
a big inflection point duringCOVID on just how business is
done, how communication happens,and I'm interested in your
(30:11):
thoughts on in know.
In my opinion, you can't beatface-to-face personal
interaction.
However, zoom has been one ofthe fastest growing stocks in
the S&P 500, and there's areason for that.
And so what have been someobservations you've had and what
are some ways people can excelin this post-COVID era?
Speaker 3 (31:00):
Yeah, things changed a little Since I got into high
tech in the summer of 2000,.
I've making a decision.
There were demos, there weretrials, so we would meet in
person, but the initial wasalways a call, email, setting
things up remotely, then showingup in person.
(31:21):
When I launched the SalesWhisperer in 06, I didn't have a
website then, so things weredone in person.
But I would cold call, invitethem to a workshop, which was,
of course, done in person, andthen we would do they'd sign on
for ongoing training.
2008, I became an Infusionsoftpartner, so they're called
(31:44):
KeepNow.
So I started selling softwarefor marketing automation, sales
and marketing automation.
I built my first website andfrom that point on I probably
met 1% of my clients ever.
Okay, so this is going back to2008.
(32:07):
I first started podcasting in2009.
Started the sales podcast in2013.
I didn't continue it from 2009.
I had a partner and we're stillfriends, we just weren't good
co-hosts.
In 2013, I started a salespodcast and have done it nonstop
ever since and it's always beenremote.
You know I was using Skype backin the day, I mean whatever the
(32:29):
free tools were.
So I still I mean I very rarelysell in person.
I meet very few of my clientsface to face, so people are a
little harder to reach nowbecause of COVID and so many
(32:50):
work from home and peopleforwarding their office line to
their working off the cell andspam calls and you know, unknown
calls.
But still, at the end of theday, we're still selling to
humans.
You know the human brain andhow you connect has not changed
(33:13):
in thousands of years and so youmay have to do more touches,
but I mean Zig Ziglar wastraining this 60 years ago.
You may have to leave, do moretouches, but I mean Zig Ziglar
was training this 60 years ago.
You know takes, you know five,five nose.
For you to yes, right, yougotta take seven to 14 touches,
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
But that's still true.
Um, leave a good voicemail, senda good email.
(33:35):
Um, engage with them on social.
Don't be a stalker, don't be ame too Lead with value.
Mail them something physical.
I don't get much stuff in themail.
I don't get very many goodvoicemails.
I get mostly spam emails.
(33:57):
And I can tell because in myLinkedIn account I have a dash
after my name Wes Dash because Ilearned just coincidentally,
years ago I put a red phone inmy name.
A sales guy in the UK had one.
I was like I like that kind ofstand out in the crowd and I
noticed how many emails andLinkedIn messages I got that
(34:21):
would say hi, wes, and then likea bunch of dashes, question
marks, stars, because itcouldn't transcode or translate
that little red phone Right.
So I knew they were scrapingand I knew it was a mass email,
you know, but I still Iliterally every single day.
(34:42):
All right, wes Dasher, this isa personal message to you.
I'm like this is not a personalmessage.
You know, delete.
So stand out right.
Use technology to sword, siftand separate, then take the time
(35:02):
to connect.
Butift and separate, then takethe time to connect.
Make a real video and don'tjust go hi, because we're all we
don't trust.
I know, if you don't say myname, I know it's probably not
right and they have the thingsnow right.
They'll hold up like awhiteboard.
You'll see the GIF, right, thescreensaver, and your name will
(35:24):
be on it.
Hi, wes.
Well, you know, dude, that's10-year-old technology.
At least it's doing some massmerge.
It was fine 10 years ago andsome people still don't know the
game.
But when you get caught, whenyou get caught.
I talk about know, like andtrust.
Now, I know you, I do not likeyou and I do not trust you.
Delete and dude every day,about 10 times a day.
(35:45):
Report is spam.
You want to block?
Yes, block, these people Now.
Granted, they probably have ahundred email addresses, but
they'll get back to him later,but he's not making it one
little tiny bit harder?
You know to stand out, so behuman.
Speaker 2 (36:04):
Yeah Well, one last question I want to ask before we
get to the fire round is tellus a little bit more about Sales
Whisper.
Speaker 3 (36:17):
Who's the ideal candidate to join the force,
people with a whole lot of moneythat don't want to hear from me
yeah, yeah, actually, thoseirritate me.
I hate.
I have people they've given memoney and I had one guy just
last year and I know him.
I know him and his wife and forthree weeks we didn't talk.
(36:38):
He was traveling, whatever.
And I called his wife.
She said here's his calendar,just start booking calls.
I literally booked like ninecalls over three weeks.
You know, like dude, we got totalk.
You're paying me money to helpyou grow and you're just back in
your old routine.
I'm not going to let you throwthis money away and I'm not
(37:00):
going to take it for free.
So it's crazy, but people willdo it.
We do it all the time, right,we get a book.
We don't read it by a course,we don't log in.
So there's a few differenttypes.
You know I still sell a lot ofsoftware, mainly still Keep and
HubSpot Keep since 08, hubspotsince 2014.
(37:23):
So I help people upgrade anddowngrade.
You know, I had a client justend of last year.
He had four Infusionsoftaccounts and a servicing ticket
account and it was just heneeded HubSpot.
So we're helping him porteverything over.
It's like a nine month project,huge deal.
But sometimes you outgrow somesoftware.
(37:43):
Sometimes people jump intoHubSpot and it's too much, but
they lock you in for a year.
They're like man, I need todowngrade to something that's
more affordable.
So I'll help them do that.
So I'll help them find tools,optimize their tools.
I've worked with damn near allof them Go, high level, nimble,
entreport, active campaign,salesforce, you know.
(38:04):
So I can help people.
So if you've got tools, you'renot sure what to buy next.
I've got a crmquizcom so youcan put that in the show notes.
A free tool.
You ask you like 23 multiplechoice questions and it spits
out results and gives you linksto like six or seven popular
tools for small businesses.
It's not good for like anenterprise, but for the
(38:26):
solopreneur to an SMB.
So I help them find tools.
I help them create cadencesright, it's kind of a popular
term, but that make the call,send the email, write a
handwritten note, connect onsocial media.
Send the email, write ahandwritten note, connect on
social media.
Wait two days.
Call number two needs to bedifferent.
Email number two needs to bedifferent.
(38:46):
So help them create thosecadences.
Role playing for salespeople.
I do a little bit.
It turns into executivecoaching.
You know I don't considermyself a coach, I'm not a life
coach, but I mean I'm 54 yearsold, I've got seven kids About
that, my fourth grandkid.
I just know stuff.
So people have hired me and Ido like working with folks on
(39:11):
just you know they're anexecutive or an owner and it
isn't only at the top, you know,and they can't talk to people.
They can't talk to a peer, theycan't talk to people.
They can't talk to a peer, theycan't.
They can't talk to staff.
You know there's things maybethey're embarrassed about.
I should know this, but I don't.
I don't know to turn to, orit's just something new, like I
(39:34):
don't know where to turn, what Ineed to.
There's a lot of times I tellpeople, look, when the student
is ready, the teacher willappear.
And yeah, I know stuff, but atthe end of the day I'm more
helping you pull out of yourselfand be confident in just
following your gut.
You know, so often we get intotrouble.
(39:55):
Every time I've gotten intotrouble in business and for so
long I didn't trust myself.
I did great in sales but then Iwould invest in a cigar
franchise and invest with a guy.
We bought an apartment complex.
I mean stuff I didn't knowabout and I couldn't control.
But I'm like, oh, those guysare older, they got some gray
(40:16):
hair, they know what they'redoing.
They didn't.
And there was always a littlepart of me like maybe I
shouldn't do that.
But then it's like, well, welike cigars, I like these guys
and this guy.
He owned 10 single-family homes, so an apartment's not really
any different, it's a whole lotdifferent.
(40:38):
So people need someone just tobounce ideas off of someone, to
just kick them in the butt andsay you're right, your intuition
is right, go, Go forward withabandon.
You know so.
And then in my inner circleit's super affordable.
That's for individuals.
It was like me with Steve Clarkback in the day.
(40:58):
You know you can join for $50 aweek, you can join for $500 a
week, you can join for $500 aquarter.
You know I've got it stupidaffordable.
I don't want anybody to say Ican't afford it.
Live calls every week, videoseries on demand.
You get my book.
I mean you can ask questions atany time.
So you know, I try to help thebeginner, I try to help the
intermediate, try to help thehigh level.
(41:20):
It's truly what I love doing,right.
Speaker 2 (41:29):
I love sales training , marketing, a little bit of
life coaching, helping peoplejust clear out the cobwebs and
go kick ass.
Very nice, very nice.
Well, we'll definitely post alink to the CRMquizcom as well
as Sales Whisperer.
Now, before we wrap up theepisode, we have something
called the Fire Round.
It's four questions we askevery guest at the end of the
episode Are you ready?
Bring it All right?
(41:49):
What's your favorite businessbook?
Speaker 3 (41:53):
It would be that series from Roy Williams.
So he's got three.
So look up Roy Williams, theWizard of Ads.
It'd be too much to say thethree, but Roy H Williams, the
Wizard of Ads, he's got three ofthem.
Speaker 2 (42:06):
All right.
What are your hobbies outsideof sales and business?
Speaker 3 (42:11):
Getting my chin kicked in jujitsu.
I've trained jujitsu eightyears now.
I go five or six times a day,so I'm a little bit hooked.
Speaker 2 (42:22):
Nice, nice, nice.
What is one thing you do notmiss about working for the man?
Speaker 3 (42:30):
Stupid, redundant reports.
You know I always usetechnology.
I remember we deployedSalesforcecom at that tech
company that moved me out hereand I kept it updated.
And my boss man he'd call me Ineed that deployed Salesforcecom
at that tech company that movedme out here and I kept it
updated.
And my boss man, he called me Ineed that Excel spreadsheet.
It's in the CRM, you know.
Are you telling me it's 100%?
Why do I have to create areport and email you a
(42:53):
spreadsheet when I'm justlogging into the tool?
Are you saying it's 100%accurate?
Yes, it is up to date, becauseyou told us to keep it up to
date and I was, like I guess,the only one that kept it up to
date.
So don't bog me down withredundant tasks.
Speaker 2 (43:08):
I like it, you and me both.
And last question what do youthink sets?
Speaker 3 (43:21):
apart successful entrepreneurs from those who
give up, fail or never getstarted.
All of sales and business isfinding a need and filling it.
So maybe alluding like what Iwas talking about before,
because we hear this adage youknow, do what you love and
you'll never work a day in yourlife.
It's like bull crap.
I think one of the worst thingsis to have a hobby, something
that you love, and it becomesyour source of income, and then
(43:45):
it's a grind.
Okay, that's real misery.
So, you know, bloom whereyou're planted, seek to serve.
You know, I've sold mobile homes, I've sold stocks and bonds,
I've sold high tech and I lovedall of those things.
I don't know if the worldconspired or God had a plan for
(44:05):
me, you know, but I got all ofthose ended.
So, but when you, if you knowhow to just find a need and fill
it, it doesn't matter what youdo right.
You're working with people,you're helping them solve
problems, you're making theworld a better place.
(44:27):
So I think that's it right.
If you can find a need and fillit, you'll always feel
satisfied that you're on theright track.
You're doing the right thingsfor the right reasons.
Speaker 2 (44:36):
Very nice, very nice.
And if people are interested ingetting in touch with you, what
is the best way?
Speaker 3 (44:43):
I'm all over the web.
Like you said, the saleswhisperer is what I've
trademarked, but I'm everywhereLinkedIn, Instagram.
I'm on those two the most.
I'm on Twitter a good bit, soif you like any of those, find
me there.
You can email me.
You can get my 12 Weeks to Peakhabit tracker.
(45:05):
That's free 12weekstopeakcom,but you get emails from me my
cell phone's on there and it'sme right.
It's not no VAs, there's nobodyacting like me.
You get me.
Speaker 2 (45:18):
Very nice, very nice.
Well, you give me Very nice,very nice.
Well, wes, I want to thank youfor being a guest on the firing
man podcast and looking forwardto staying in touch.
Yeah, man, thanks for having me.
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