July 29, 2025 • 48 mins
Jeremy Shapiro returns to the Firing the Man podcast with game-changing insights on scaling businesses beyond the hustle phase. With decades of experience helping established entrepreneurs break through growth plateaus, Jeremy unpacks the mental shifts and practical strategies required to build sustainable growth without burnout.
We dive deep into the concept of moving from "reactive chaos" to strategic growth. Too many business owners spend their days firefighting – constantly bailing water without patching the hole in the ship. Jeremy shares a powerful framework for carving out dedicated time to work ON your business, not just IN it, and explains how this simple shift transforms business performance.
The conversation takes a fascinating turn when Jeremy reveals his process-driven approach to scaling. He challenges the common misconception that systems are ever "done" and emphasizes creating a culture where team members own and evolve processes rather than having procedures imposed from above. For listeners struggling with "SOPs that die in Google Drive," Jeremy offers practical advice for keeping systems alive and relevant.
Perhaps most valuable is Jeremy's counterintuitive approach to pricing. Through a simple mathematical example, he demonstrates how modest price increases can potentially double profits, even accounting for customer attrition. This perspective-shifting insight reveals how fear-based pricing strategies leave substantial money on the table for many entrepreneurs.
For those feeling stuck at business plateaus, Jeremy offers hope through practical strategies that have helped thousands break through ceilings. He explains how growth typically follows S-curves rather than continuous hockey sticks, and how being open to new channels, products, or strategies that weren't right for your previous growth phase can catalyze your next expansion.
Whether you're running an e-commerce business, service-based company, or any entrepreneurial venture trying to scale beyond six or seven figures, this conversation delivers immediately applicable wisdom. Grab Jeremy's new book "Your Business Growth Playbook" and start implementing these proven strategies to escape reactive chaos and build a business that grows on your terms.
How to connect with Jeremy?
Website: https://YourBusinessGrowthPlaybook.com
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/bayareamastermind/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeremyshapiro/
Ready to scale your Amazon business? Click here to book a strategy call. https://calendly.com/firingtheman/amazon
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome everyone to the Firing the man podcast, a
show for anyone who wants to betheir own boss.
If you sit in a cubicle everyday and know you are capable of
more, then join us.
This show will help you build abusiness and grow your passive
income streams in just a fewshort hours per day.
And now your hosts, serialentrepreneurs David Shomer and
(00:22):
Ken Wilson.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Welcome everyone to the Firing the man podcast,
where we spotlight entrepreneurswho've taken the leap from
employee to business owner andare building something on their
own terms.
I'm your host, and today we'rejoined by a powerhouse in the
world of business strategyJeremy Shapiro.
Jeremy is a seasoned serialentrepreneur with decades of
(00:46):
experience helping establishedbusiness owners break through
growth plateaus, scalesustainably and achieve what he
calls true entrepreneurialfreedom.
He's not just another businesscoach.
Jeremy is known for his uniqueability to simplify complex
ideas and translate them intopractical, actionable steps that
(01:06):
drive real results.
He's the author of the new bookyour Business Growth Playbook
Breakthrough Strategies to Scaleyour Business.
For Business Owners Who'veOutgrown Hustle, it is a must
read and is available now.
This is going to be a greatread for founders ready to move
beyond the grind mode intostrategic, scalable growth.
(01:29):
Jeremy's insights have beenfeatured on NPR Morning Edition,
fox News, pbs and hundreds ofpodcasts, and today he's here to
talk with us about scalingsmart, leading with clarity and
building a business that doesnot run on burnout.
Whether you're deep in thetrenches of e-commerce,
launching a new venture orlooking to scale beyond six or
(01:51):
seven figures, this conversationis packed with wisdom you can
apply right now.
Let's dive into mindset,methods and strategies with
Jeremy Shapiro.
Jeremy, welcome to the show.
Speaker 3 (02:03):
Thank you so much for inviting me on.
Excited to be here.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
Absolutely.
I have to congratulate you.
You are on a short list oftwo-time guests on the Firing
man podcast.
It is an elite club and you arenow part of that elite club.
Welcome back.
Speaker 3 (02:18):
Thank you.
We get jackets on three visits,is that right?
Monogram jacket.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
Yeah, that's right.
So yeah, Green Jacket, there wego.
So well, good stuff.
So since we've last talked, youhave been working on a book
titled your Business GrowthPlaybook, and it's geared
towards founders who've outgrownhustle.
What does that mean to you andwhy do you think a lot of
(02:44):
entrepreneurs get stuck there?
Speaker 3 (02:46):
You know, it's interesting as we look at growth
right, from someone who wantsto start a business to getting
going, hustling, grinding andreally validating your business
idea right Like the things youdo on a day-to-day basis to
prove out your business idea andget it off the ground are
different than what it takes toscale that, to go beyond being a
solopreneur to building a team,to differentiating product line
(03:09):
and so on.
So one of the things I oftensee newer business owners do is
continue staying stuck at sortof like one frequency of work
right, not recognizing that whatgot you where you are now is
not what's going to get youwhere you want to go next.
And so really a lot of thiscomes down to that mindset shift
(03:30):
, of shifting out of thesolopreneur mindset, expanding
beyond market validation andmoving towards the scaling side.
Once you've got something thatyou know works well, now we can
build on that.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
Absolutely, absolutely.
Now in the book you talk aboutmoving from reactive chaos,
which I can say as growing mybusinesses I've been there for
sure.
So from reactive chaos tostrategic growth.
What is a sign that anentrepreneur or a business is
(03:59):
ready or overdue for this shiftor overdue for this shift?
Speaker 3 (04:03):
Yeah, you know, when we talk about burnout, or you
know, there's reactive chaos,right?
Another word for reactive chaosis firefighting.
So often, business owners, evenof larger companies, will find
themselves spending the dayreacting to everything, whether
it's, you know, opening youreyes in the morning, grabbing
your phone and looking at emailsand Slack messages and you know
(04:24):
, the social medias andeverything right and jumping
into the problems of the day andnext thing you know, it's the
end of the day, right, and allyou've done is react to the, the
things that keep popping up infront of you.
Right, that's one way ofworking, but none of that moves
the needle.
None of that moves the businessforward.
All that does is you've bailedthe water out and you're back to
(04:47):
where you were, but the nextday is just the same thing again
and again.
So, to shift out of thatreactive chaos, there's a few
things we've got to do, right?
So, if you're feeling thatyou're in that firefighting mode
, then that's step one, right,Recognize that.
But then step two to movebeyond.
That is a few things.
Right that.
But then step two to movebeyond.
That is a few things, right.
(05:07):
One is you got to make the timeto work on the business.
If all your time isfirefighting in the business,
you'll never get that time topatch the hole in the ship
instead of just bailing thewater out right.
You'll never have the time to,you know, to trench that fire
line versus just trying to takecare of the spreading fire.
So make the time in yourcalendar whether it's the first
hour of your day, or half a daya week, or a few days a month
(05:29):
right.
Carve out that time that'sdedicated to doing what it takes
to move the business forwardtowards where you want it to go.
This could be your strategicplanning.
This could be working on yourmarketing campaigns.
This could be getting the jobdescriptions out there and
interviewing people to hire andbuild out your team right.
Like.
There's a lot of things we canon using these products in the
business every day to keep theirdoors open and take care of
(05:50):
their customers.
(06:12):
Like many of us, had a lot ofpride in that product and wanted
to take great care of hisclients.
What that meant, though, was,as a solopreneur, he needed to
be by that phone and by theemail inbox if his customers
needed him, Because if theyneeded him, well, he better take
care of them, or else they'reoffline until he gets them
sorted out right.
The result of that was is hewas tied to this business.
It was this ball and chainaround him.
(06:33):
He couldn't put the time in togrow the business.
He wasn't able to get outdoorswhere he loved to be.
He was a mountain biker.
He couldn't get out in themountains, which was not just
good for his physical health andwellness, but like his mental
health.
And also, where do we usuallyget our best ideas when we're
away from the business?
He wasn't getting any of thoseneeds met, so one of the first
(06:54):
things we did was we helped himto figure out where a lot of the
time went and what the systemswere that were needed, and we
were able to get a full-timeperson on board virtual right
Contractor overseas handlingfrontline customer service.
What this meant was whencustomers emailed or called
during business hours, someoneelse was taking care of this.
(07:15):
This gave him back 40 hours ofhis week.
That he wasn't fightingfrontline fires, that he could
step away from the business getback to the mountains.
Or he could step away from thebusiness.
Get back to the mountains, orhe could reinvest in the
business and get new accounts byworking on sales, get new
customers, by working on themarketing side of things right,
Work on the product, figure outwhat's next and all the
(07:35):
important stuff.
That's the real work on thebusiness that he couldn't do
before because he was doing allthe work in the business and
that's that really powerfulshift from that burnout right
and the firefighting to gettingyou back to growth.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
Absolutely.
Now you said one word.
I want to drill into this.
You said process.
You focus on building a process, and I think this is something
you know.
I've heard a lot about this andyou've interacted with
thousands of business owners.
What does a good process looklike?
(08:11):
Or how do you know that you'vearrived?
Because this is coming from aguy who's written a lot of SOPs
that have went to die on GoogleDrive and never be opened again,
and so what does this look likewhen it's functioning well?
Speaker 3 (08:27):
Yeah, so you touched on a few interesting things
there, right?
One of them that I love is thisidea of a process being done.
I argue that your SOPs arenever actually done right.
When we create a new process ora system, there's only three
outcomes that we're going to getwith that right.
When we create a new process ora system, there's only three
outcomes that we're going to getwith that right.
The ideal one we want, thehappy path, is that someone else
(08:50):
runs the system and gets theresult that you want, or the
result that you would havegotten had you done it on your
own right.
That's where we want to be.
In reality, when the systemstarts getting used, what we're
going to find is a personfollows your system, but the
system wasn't complete yet.
There was a detail, there was apiece of things you forgot to
document or that you thought wasclear.
That wasn't clear, right.
(09:10):
That comes up when you use yourown system, but more so when
other people start using yoursystem.
So your system is open torevision, all right.
The third outcome is going tobe the system is now correct and
is proven out, but someone justdoesn't use it, and so they
don't get the result that youwant, right, and that's just a
matter of coaching andretraining and getting your team
back to using the systems.
(09:31):
Okay, so our systems evolve,right, and, as our business
needs, change over time.
One thing that I have in all ofour systems is not just the
date the system was createdright, but the date that it was
last reviewed right, and maybeit's the same and nothing's
changed, but at least we can saywe've gone through it and it's
all the same.
But oftentimes, when I'mworking with business owners who
(09:51):
do have systems which is fewerthan you might think right what
we find is that their businesshas moved on and a system is no
longer accurate, but the teamhas just learned it and has used
it, and the team has evolved todo something different than
what we have documented.
And so when we review thatsystem, we go through and we
realize what parts no longerapply, what parts need revision
(10:13):
and what we can change to bringthe system back to current what
the team is currently doing.
This means when you hiresomeone, you can train them on
the new system.
This means, if you don't getthe result you want, you can
fall back to your system, and soon All right.
And that second thing I want totouch on that you mentioned is,
you know the Google Drive fullof documents that go to die
there.
Yeah, creating systems is funfor some of us, right, it's
(10:34):
enjoyable to document this downand they're so vital for
training.
But if we don't actively manageby those systems right, if the
team doesn't use us on anongoing basis, if we don't
review them from time to time,then, yeah, the systems go
somewhere to die.
And it's okay, you know, oncesomeone gets their reps in and
they know how to do it, to notbe looking at the system side by
(10:55):
side.
But I find that, you know, asuccessful system has a few
components, sort of threeversions of it, if you will
right.
One is like a really clear,succinct definition of success.
Secondly is more your checklistto inspect that result of what
makes a successful outcome.
And the third is the exhaustivelist of the steps and things
(11:16):
involved.
Right, training uses that lastone.
Training someone new uses thatlonger list.
Managing from a self-managementstandpoint can use the
checklist.
And then the self-sanity checkuses that clear, succinct
definition of success.
And those last two are the onesthat you manage by.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
It almost seems like you are talking about systems
and a culture of systems asbeing one in the same, and so,
as a business owner, what aresome things that you can do to
create that culture that'srespective of systems?
(11:57):
Is it an SOP day every quarter?
Is it new employee training?
What do you think?
Speaker 3 (12:06):
Yeah, where we've seen this be a challenge is
sometimes we have businessowners that have staff that's
been with them forever and maybetheir business has plateaued so
they're not in a growth mode,right?
They're not looking to documentand train new staff, it's just
them and their small team, andthey've been doing this for 10
years and nothing has changed.
That can be really hard toculturally shift to SOPs, and
(12:28):
that's not because you can't putthem in place, but there can be
resistance from the team, right?
So when we change theconversation from like you
versus an employer, you versus ateam member, and change the
conversation to be around whereyour business is going and what
that vision, mission, purposeare, now everyone can get behind
that, from existing team to newteam.
And now your SOPs are merely inservice of that bigger picture,
(12:53):
right?
So instead of having aconversation with someone around
, why didn't you follow thesystem?
Now we're talking about, hey,for us to get to this place.
We all agreed we want to go.
How can we use this systembetter to make sure we get there
?
Once you have a system, in thisculture of systems, revising the
(13:13):
systems becomes far moreculturally.
There's a far better culturalfit, right, because now we
understand that these aren'twritten in stone documents, but
they're living and breathing.
So when we change up the way wedo things, when we expand our
workflows or our processes, weupdate the document with our
team not for them, but with them.
(13:35):
Our team, not for them, butwith them.
And that brings them into thatconversation.
It's not the word coming downfrom on high about how they've
got to do it.
It's a process they'veparticipated in, right?
So if you're trying to get SOPsin place for the first time
with a team that doesn't havethem, have them create the first
draft of it, create it withthem, revise it with them, and
(13:55):
they now have ownership in thatdocument, in that process and an
eye on what they're buildingwith you.
And that could be the powerfuldifference between being told
how to do it and being part ofthe creation.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
Absolutely.
I really like that, and I'vegot one last question on systems
, and then we're going to moveon.
As we sit here chatting in Q32025, where do you see systems
living?
So is it on Asana or ClickUp ora Google Doc?
(14:28):
I've been in all of thoseplaces and I like to bounce
around about every year and ahalf, and so I'm just curious
any platforms that seem to do agood job for long-term
implementation of systems?
Speaker 3 (14:42):
Man.
I've seen and I've tried somany systems over the years.
I know multiple companies whotheir entire SaaS platform is
just for documentation and allof this, and some of those have
felt like overkill, especiallybecause it's one more system,
one more login and so on.
I've also successfully usedGoogle Docs, right.
(15:03):
Google Drive, like that, isalso a usable, good system.
I've also built our ownplatforms, right.
I have SaaS products that haveincorporated in a system for
SOPs and systems.
We've really used everythingunder the sun, right.
The key piece to all of this is,whatever system you're going to
use, you want to make sure youcan easily organize your systems
(15:27):
and pretty much all platformsdo that that your team can
easily get access to them, thatyou can easily revise them,
right.
So you know, I've been doingthis for decades.
So a lot of businesses I'veworked with came from a time of
where you have these documents,you print them out, they go in
three ring binders and go onbookshelves and go in desks for
team members to use at differentstations around a business,
(15:48):
right, and that's fine, right.
That was from a very you know,analog world and that is still a
good way to have systems, infact, when working with clients
and moving towards an exit.
It's pretty valuable whenyou're selling your company to
not just have tribal knowledgebut to be able to show your
buyer that we have thedocumentation.
Here's the entire operations forthe whole company, right?
(16:10):
You know how everything in thisbusiness works, versus them
needing to learn it all from youfrom scratch.
So there's value in that,whether it's literally printed
on paper, it's in Google Docs,it's in a custom system or
somewhere, but you do want it inone place, not nine, right?
I had one client I've actuallyhad a few clients who sort of
have a Google Sheets where theylist all the different systems
(16:31):
and each of the sheets links toa document, and that starts to
get kind of complicated.
It's a nice idea, but it startsto overcomplicate, right?
So have your folder structure,have your documents right.
Have them be printable so theycould be printed, shareable at
an organizational or folderlevel, not individual document,
(16:52):
and easily editable and reallyany system, so long as you pick
one, it can be fine for you.
Speaker 2 (16:57):
I think that is very good and practical advice on
that topic.
So one thing that I hadmentioned in the intro is you
have a knack for taking verycomplex things and simplifying
them, and I'm curious what aresome areas of a business that
you often see entrepreneursoverthinking?
Speaker 3 (17:20):
What are some areas of a business that you often see
entrepreneurs overthinking,that this simplification process
is really beneficial.
It's funny, speakingspecifically to our e-commerce
space, pricing anddifferentiation can often be
overcomplicated.
I see owners overthinking whatthe pricing model is going to be
(17:42):
and chasing the competition andtrying to figure out how to
undercut the competition onpricing.
And you know, looking at acrowded marketplace and being
just another product in a busymarketplace right, If your whole
business is built on beinganother of something else,
another commodity, that's areally hard place to command the
pricing you might want, right.
And so one of the strategies Italk about often is pricing.
Well, guess what, If you're ina commoditized industry, you
(18:02):
don't have the ability tocontrol pricing.
Your competition does.
When you start to differentiateand when you have a brand and
when there's customer loyalty,that starts to bring that power
back to you to set your ownprices.
So I work with clients a lot.
One of the topics that comes upis pricing.
And it may sound kind of pithy,but if you just increase your
(18:23):
prices, that does great thingsfor your business.
But so often I hear frombusiness owners this pushback of
you know, but I can't justraise my prices because baked in
for you is what your pricing is.
And often business owners lookat this race to the bottom of
how do I discount thecompetition?
When really what we want to beasking is how do we
differentiate?
So in our customer's mind,there's no other choice but to
(18:46):
work with you.
Once you are in a market of justyou, you can now command the
pricing.
So let's look at asubscription-based business, for
example.
If you have, say, a $40 a monthsubscription that your
customers pay you and weincrease that to $50, right,
We've now increased that pricing.
(19:07):
You know there's a 25% increaseover what you had before.
Your cost of goods hasn'tchanged, right?
What it costs you to fulfillthat customer is the same.
So your profit margin just wentup.
Let's say, for example, thatyou're all in cost of goods is
$30.
And so your profit margin is 10.
And sorry listeners, I knowwe're going through a lot of
(19:28):
numbers here right, you wereselling at 40 and it costs you
30,.
Your profit was 10.
We now increase that price to50.
Your profit was 10.
We now increase that price to50.
That means your profit is now$20.
We have literally doubled yourprofit by increasing your
pricing.
Only 25%?
Oh no.
But what if you lose somecustomers?
You might lose some subscribers.
(19:48):
You also, by the way, might notright.
But let's say you do lose somecustomers, that's okay, Because
your profits have doubled.
You could technically afford tolose half your customers and
still have the same profitmargin, right?
So when we start thinking aboutthe numbers that way, that
(20:09):
becomes really powerful.
In one of my businesses we had,we faced exactly this challenge.
We had a subscription-basedbusiness and our customers were
paying us.
I think at the time it was like19 bucks a month, right, and we
were debating this increase to29.
And we were pushed to make thatchange and we said, look, let's
just experiment with this.
(20:29):
Right, we always look forwhat's the cheapest and easiest
way we can test something.
So instead of trying to changesubscriptions for all of our
existing customers right, wesaid let's just adjust the
pricing for new customersexisting, we won't even tell
about new pricing, right,they're fine.
So we just tested out on thesales pages the increase in the
price and, wouldn't you know it,we didn't see much of a change
(20:53):
in conversion, which, of course,the harsh takeaway is like oh
my gosh, what if we'd done thissooner?
Right.
So we're kicking ourselves fornot doing it sooner.
But making that small change ina really small, easy to test way
proved out the concept that themarket would accept that higher
pricing, right.
And so then, of course, what doyou do next?
(21:14):
You test again, we put theupsell in place, you add in this
is stuff I talk about in thebook Right, controlling what we
(21:36):
charged.
So you can do that Experimentwith that pricing, find the
easiest way to do that.
It doesn't need to becomplicated.
It doesn't need to be acomplicated plan of messaging to
existing customers and so on,because that can be a mess.
But it can also be simplifiedand done right.
Speaker 2 (21:53):
I like that.
I really like that approach.
Right, I like that.
I really like that approach.
One topic I'd like to move tois scaling, and this is I think
this is has kind of gainednotoriety as like a sexy word, a
word that people love to talkabout scale, and so why don't we
start with what is scaling Like?
Speaker 1 (22:15):
yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:16):
What does that look?
Speaker 3 (22:17):
like.
So I think scaling there's sortof this balancing act that we
do when we scale right, butscaling generally means growing,
well, growing to what right.
So first of all, we've got tobe clear, as a business owner,
what we're trying to build.
Because scaling, by the way, isnot for everyone and it's not
(22:37):
to be lusted after per se.
If what you want is a certainsize business, right.
If you're looking for a certainyou know income for yourself,
or a certain you know value forexit and all these things like
that's great.
But get clarity on what that is.
For many business owners, youmay be in a size where, like,
things are good, right, youmight be happy with the hours
you're putting in and thecashflow that's coming out, and
(22:59):
that is an okay thing to run, to.
Let it run its course, right,you may not need to build the
next deck of corn, but if that'swhat you want to build, well,
then you know there's steps toget there.
So scaling those two piecesthat need to kind of work in
lockstep as you grow comes downto on the one side, is your
sales, marketing and getting newcustomers and increased revenue
(23:19):
in, and then with that, theother side of the equation is
the operations, right.
So I've seen some businessesscale up the operation side
first, right.
And then you're looking arounduh wondering where the customers
are, and you've got all thisoverhead from staff and
warehouse space and operationsand expenses to support a
business you don't have yet,right, but you can grow into.
(23:42):
And I've, on the flip side,seen businesses where we scale
up the growth side on the frontend for customers, right.
So now you have all thesecustomers coming in and you
don't have product for them orteam to support them or onboard
them or fulfill stuff.
So too much of one is not agood thing, right?
You're looking to, you know,ratchet each of these in turn as
(24:03):
you grow, all right.
So that, in a nutshell, is whatscaling is.
But which do you do first?
Well, the first thing you do isfigure out where you want to go
, what you want to grow to.
So in business, no matter whatany of our businesses that we
have, there's only threedirections and only three
outcomes for our business.
One is we're going to pass iton to our kids.
(24:25):
Are we really going to do that?
Like, if you think about it inyour heart of hearts, do your
you know, do your kids want yourbusiness?
Will your business model evenmake sense a generation from now
?
For most folks that's just nota viable direction.
It was generations ago, butthat happens far less and less
these days.
All right, so let's go aheadand scratch off the table.
That's probably not an optionfor us.
(24:46):
The second direction and this iswhere, unfortunately, most
businesses go is they get runinto the ground At some point.
You just close up shop and thebusiness is done and that's okay
.
In fact, a lot of baby boomersnow, you know, are at the point
in their business where theywant to get out.
They don't want to run into theground, they know their kids
won't take it and they're sortof looking for that exit.
Right.
(25:06):
But if they don't find the exit, then they just close up shop.
Which brings us to our thirdoption, and that is that you
actually exit.
You sell the business.
So of the three passing it onto your kids, closing up shop or
selling the business which oneseems like the direction that
you might want to go in yourbusiness, and for most folks,
(25:27):
given those choices, we looktowards exit.
And so now we've got to decidewho the category of buyer is
going to be for us and howthey're going to value our
company and how they're going tovalue our company and what
they're going to look for.
And now we can track towardsbuilding so that we are a very
attractive company for our idealbuyer to acquire.
Speaker 2 (25:49):
I like it.
I really like that Now for theentrepreneurs that are feeling
stuck or they feel like they'veplateaued and that I have
personally experienced this,where things are rocking and
rolling and then they just kindof taper off.
And so when this happens to meor to anybody listening, when
(26:11):
they feel that plateau, what aresome things that they can do or
they can take action on to bustthrough that and continue to
grow?
Speaker 3 (26:21):
Yeah, I want to answer that, but can we switch
mics for a moment?
Absolutely, can I ask you whenyou face that and you hit that
plateau, as so many of us do,what did you do?
How did you get back to growth?
Speaker 2 (26:36):
Yeah.
So I'm in the physical productspace and I view listings as
fishing hooks in the water, andthe more fishing hooks I have in
the water, the more likely I amto catch a fish, and so one of
the things that I did was spenta ton of time focusing on
(26:58):
products.
Now, that causes cash flowconstraints, and so I got
creative on dropshipping or lowMOQs or negotiating payment
terms, but I was really focusedthere.
One last thing I would tell youis I got out from behind my
laptop.
(27:20):
I fall into this maybe everysix months, where I will be in
my office and not leave and I'mgrinding.
I'm going from meeting tomeeting, task to task.
I kind of like it.
I kind of hate it.
It's just this weirdentrepreneurial rollercoaster.
Kind of hate it.
It's just this weirdentrepreneurial rollercoaster.
(27:41):
And I will go on a vacation or Iwill go on a walk and all of a
sudden there's clarity and I'llshare with you a recent
development is I really like AIand we should talk about AI if
you'd like to.
But you can now converse withthe smartest being that's ever
(28:03):
existed.
You can put in AirPods and youcan have a conversation with
them, and that's one of the like.
Helping.
Knowing that that is an avenueto engage with AI has been great
, because, at the end of the day, I want to get out from behind
my desk and I don't want towatch a YouTube video on how to
use AI or prompts, but I can goon a walk and talk to an advisor
(28:28):
, and one thing I'll tell youthat I've been doing is I will
establish a board of directors.
Warren Buffett and MotherTeresa Give me five pieces of
advice based on these people, um, and you can make it whoever
you want, and it's fun andthere's really no doubt you can
ask it dumb questions and it'llgive you responses.
(28:49):
So no judgment either on thattoo none none, and so it's
private conversation, and and soI.
That's a long answer, butheavily focused on revenue
generating activities gettingout from behind my laptop and,
most recently, talking to AI asif it's a sentient being.
Speaker 3 (29:12):
That's really cool, and what I love is all three of
those touch on the exactstrategy that I was going to
share to answer the question.
So masterfully done.
So what got you where you arenow in your business right to
the plateau is not what's goingto get you to the next level.
Right, I've seen over time, inbusinesses, growth usually
(29:36):
happens like these S-shapedcurves.
In businesses, growth usuallyhappens like these S-shaped
curves, right, when we talkabout this idealized, you know,
hockey stick up into the rightkind of growth that companies so
aspire to.
What we don't realize is, if wego forward in time and we zoom
out, that hockey stick doesn'tgo forever, right, like, at some
point that hockey stick startsto plateau and it has this
(29:57):
S-shape.
So at the point you're startingto get that traction and
takeoff for your S, recognizethat history has shown us that
doesn't go on forever and thatthat's going to plateau.
So what is the next right?
What is going to get you?
You took the escalator from youknow the, you know the, the
lobby to the first floor.
There's a different escalatorthat's from first to second,
(30:17):
second to third and so on.
So we've got to stack those andlook towards that future growth
, okay, great.
So what does that look like?
Well, we got to take a stepback and recognize that there
may be sales channels thatdidn't make sense for us at that
last stage, that start to makesense for us now.
There may be products that ourmarket wasn't ready for or our
business wasn't ready for whenwe launched our last stage of
(30:38):
growth, that we are now readyfor.
So be open to those new saleschannels, those new products,
the new pricing, new marketing,new channels and all new
partners, all these things,because one of those is going to
be the game changer For aprevious business of mine.
We were using Google AdWords inthe early days, right, and we
found that our ads were doingreally well.
(31:00):
For every dollar we spent, wewere getting about $4 in upfront
revenue from new leads thatcame in, which was great.
We're really happy with that.
So what do you do when it'sworking?
You scale it.
So we spent more on our ads andnow we're at the point we'd
spend a dollar and get threeback, still good.
So we scaled it up and it wasdollar out, $2 in, and we got to
(31:21):
the point where we kind ofmaxed out that channel that for
every dollar that went out wewere getting a dollar back in,
so we were breaking even on thefront end.
Thankfully we had recurringrevenue and so longer term over
customer lifetime value right,which is super important for
businesses to know.
We were still okay with that,but we then saw it started to go
(31:44):
negative.
We were spending a dollar andgetting like 50 cents in and we
took our eye off the ball.
And this was a problem becauseit was a channel that was
growing and we also didn't knowa ton about.
We were just seeing successwith it and so we started to be
losing money on that.
We were hitting a plateau.
In fact, we were arguably overa plateau and on a downward
slide from there.
So we changed up a few things.
(32:04):
One is we brought in aspecialist who knows that
channel really well and has eyeson many businesses, not just
ours.
With a few key changes theywere able to turn that back
around.
So we were profitable again onthe front end not just breakeven
, but profitable.
So they turned that around.
That helped us to break aplateau by bringing in someone
who knew that existing channelbetter than we did.
(32:25):
They knew how to scale it andthat was really powerful.
But, secondly, we also added onother channels that we weren't
using at the time.
We also implemented a number ofthe strategies I talk about in
the book to do more with thesales channels we already had
right, the incoming customers.
We did more with them.
And secondly, strategies tosell more and do more with our
(32:47):
existing customer base.
So, even if we never sawanother new customer come in and
even if we saw nothing no newchannels or anything there was
more we could do with ourexisting recurring revenue-based
customers to continue scalingthe business.
Now, of course, we didn't shutoff the front end.
We kept that going right, andso we were able to get back to
(33:07):
scale.
And these are the strategiesthat you know, I've used for
decades, not just in my ownbusinesses, but with all of our
clients as well.
Right, this is, you know, rinseand repeat recipes that are
successful, that can breakthrough that plateau.
So, in summary, there be opento trying the thing that didn't
work before but that might getyou to that next step, but it
(33:30):
wasn't for your previous step.
Speaker 2 (33:34):
So you said what got you say to a million is not
going to get you to 10 million,correct, and when I think of
systems or software or thingslike that, it does not weigh
heavily on me.
When I think of people that'stough, the people that helped me
get to a million dollars.
They've been along for the ride, but I know they're not going
(33:58):
to get me to 10.
Yeah, and that weighs heavilyon me and I can.
I know there are people I'veheld onto for way, way too long
because I like them and and soany any strategies or ways to
navigate that to where you canhave a a clean conscience is a
comfortable pillow type ofscenario.
Speaker 3 (34:21):
Well, if we look at it so, let's touch on the
oftentimes the scariest personto swap out in a company, and
that's you as the founder, right?
You as the CEO.
And you're the CEO simplybecause you started the company
and when you were one person,you were CEO and never gave that
leadership role up.
At a certain point in the scale, you start to have your C-suite
, including, at some stages,bringing on a CEO to actually
(34:46):
run the operations.
Now, the CEO who gets you fromfounding to your million or your
10 million is very differentthan the CEO who's experienced
and has a depth of knowledge ofrunning a $10 million business
and scaling it to a hundred,right.
So it's rare but possible.
You'll find a CEO who can gettrained up on that and just
(35:06):
their own business More oftenthan not.
If we look at, like you know,big public companies and all the
name brands, we know there areoften different CEOs who come in
at different seasons and stagesof growth for a reason.
That's where their expertise isthe same.
The same in athletics, right?
You know the same in many kindsof things.
You bring in the rightleadership or the right coach
for that size business to get it.
(35:27):
You know who has experiencegetting to that next stage of
growth In terms of the existingteam and different roles?
Well, usually there's.
You know, for example, we've hadclients where the business
owner did all the marketingright, because it's what you do
as a small company.
And then at some point you bringon someone who full-time runs
marketing and as you grow youthen might bring on a CMO right,
(35:51):
because the person who is doingmarketing in your business is
probably not CMO material.
They just don't have theexperience doing it.
If they did, you would havehired them as a CMO, but that
would have been overkill, right.
So you're sort of you'reputting layers in between versus
graduating people up, andthat's okay.
So you know, in this example,you know a client went from
(36:12):
doing the marketing to hiring amarketing person to then putting
a CMO between them and theperson doing the marketing to
then having a marketing team,right, you start to have
specialists, not justgeneralists, on the team and
you'll find your existing teammembers probably are really good
at one thing that they weredoing and they now get to go
from we'll use marketing stillas the example from running
social and ppc and content andseo and all of these things.
(36:36):
So now they get to specializein the one thing they really are
passionate about or the areathey're really good at, and that
actually is often a relief forteam members to have that
specialization.
Speaker 2 (36:46):
I think that's a really really good point, that
this does not need to be a sadending and oftentimes in that
zero to a million, you have teamoperations, people that are
doing 10 things and as you growthey can be more specialized in
areas that they like.
Speaker 3 (37:04):
I really like that answer up a level that they
never wanted to go to.
And the two areas I see thismost common are you'll have a
sales rep who's a phenomenalsales rep, so you assume because
of your best sales rep, thatthey should manage the sales
(37:25):
team.
Those are vastly differentskills and oftentimes you'll
find someone fails outgloriously and horrifically
because they were thrust into amanagement role when they were
really just good on the frontlines as a sales rep.
And the second area we see islike with developers.
You'll take someone who's areally good coder, developer,
(37:46):
you know, and so on, and movethem up to managing a
development team Vastlydifferent skill set who want to
grow and take on thoseleadership roles, yes, but when
you move to managing a team, youare using a different skill set
.
You need different educationand training and it's something
(38:08):
you've never done before and infact you are farther away from
the work that got you there thanyou might want to be.
So, yes, people can move up,but don't assume because
someone's good at doing a jobthat they'll be good at managing
people to do that job.
Speaker 2 (38:24):
That is a really, really good point, and often the
best technical people are theones that get promoted to
managerial.
And yeah, you're absolutelyright.
Speaker 3 (38:35):
It's a classic, yeah, you're absolutely right, it's a
classic.
Yeah, now, before we get intothe fire round, we touched on it
a little bit, but I reallyenjoy asking everybody I come
into contact with how are youusing AI?
Yeah, so we've seen AI be we'reusing AI and seeing AI being
(38:57):
used in a really interestingrole, and I realized that by the
time anyone hears theseconversations, anything about AI
these days is like immediatelydated the next day.
So take this conversation on AIwith a grain of salt.
It may not last the test oftime.
We've seen AI be reallypowerful in supportive roles
versus replacement roles, right?
So, for example, one place thatmany companies have tried to
(39:18):
use AI, and have for well over adecade, is on frontline
customer service and putting AIor chatbots between their
support team and customers.
And, yes, for getting access tofrequently asked questions or
answering that frontlinequestion.
It can be helpful.
It can be helpful, but it'smore often supportive, in still
(39:39):
maintaining a human connectionright with the customer by
providing the resources andthings we need and getting
access to the resource, but notreplacing a person entirely
right.
We've seen AI in the exampleyou were sharing earlier in this
, you know, being a soundingboard, right, helping to develop
(40:01):
some ideas or sketch out anoutline or provide a
counterpoint to an idea.
Right.
So from a developmentstandpoint, like an ideation
standpoint, it can help to shortthat timeline, poking holes in
your assumptions, for example,or providing a an opposing
perspective.
So those have been reallypowerful ways.
We've seen business owners useit and of course there's you
know, uh, all the places we'veseen it from summarizing the
inflow and the outflow ofinformation, one area where I
(40:25):
thought it was reallyinteresting to use, so the book
that that we have out yourbusiness growth playbook.
That is like my original contentfrom you know my decades of
experience doing this stuff.
(40:54):
But what I found is that we hada number of folks who wanted to
take an early look at creatingthis multi two-person host
format audio book overview.
So it took the whole book andconsolidated it down to like a
20-minute conversation aroundwhat the book is, and I found
folks love that high-leveloverview of what we're going
(41:15):
over in the book.
It was longer and more in depththan just a description of the
book and it was enjoyable toconsume with multiple
personalities talking about thisin a conversational format.
But then for me, like I'm areader much more than I am a
listener, I, you know, want toconsume by reading, so I was
(41:36):
able to use AI again to get thetranscript of that and then the
summary of that.
So it was sort of thisiterative process of using AI to
adjust the format to differentaudience members, taking the
original content but producingthat and getting it out in a way
that people want to consume.
So it's been super helpful froma ideation standpoint, as well
(42:01):
as from taking your originalwork and creating derivative
work for formats your consumerswant.
Speaker 2 (42:07):
I like it.
I like it.
Well, jeremy, this has been anoutstanding conversation.
Before we wrap up the interview, let's go into the fire round,
love round.
So what is your favorite book?
Speaker 3 (42:22):
Well, naturally, your business growth playbook.
So, yes, love my book, butreally, when I look at
foundational books, they'rebooks that I find myself
recommending all the time and infact, about once a week I share
out and publish the latest bookthat I'm loving and think folks
would enjoy.
But a few have stood the testof time that I still continue to
(42:42):
recommend.
One of those is MichaelGerber's E-Myth Revisited.
It's huge.
I refer back to that a lot.
Robert Kiyosaki's CashflowQuadrant when we talk about
moving from an employee toself-employed, to business owner
and investor all of that's onthe cover of the book, but uh,
you know, jump diving deeperinto that book is, uh, I find
really helpful and I recommendthat a lot.
(43:02):
Um, elliot goldrat's book thegoal is excellent.
Um, and when it comes to corevalues, mission, vision, purpose
and all that and thatcollaborative approach of doing
that with your team, the go-tobook on that is traction nice,
nice.
Speaker 2 (43:16):
I'm a traction disciple.
Um, all right.
What is one thing you do notmiss about working for the man?
Speaker 3 (43:25):
a job is that someone else has a say in how you spend
your time, and that's like whatprison is, where someone tells
(43:48):
you you know how your time willbe spent.
And a job is that same thing.
So when you run your ownbusiness, you, for good or
better or for worse decide howyour day looks and what you
spend your time doing.
So the good news is you're yourown boss.
The bad news is you're your ownboss.
So, yeah, get control of yourcalendar.
Speaker 2 (44:02):
Very nice.
And last question what do youthink sets apart successful
e-commerce entrepreneurs fromthose who give up, fail or never
get started?
Speaker 3 (44:13):
Oh, my gosh Hands down.
Implementation, execution,action, call it what you want,
but taking the action, gettingstuff done.
I can share a quick story foryou on that if you want, but I
know it's a rapid fire round.
Speaker 2 (44:27):
Let's hear it.
Speaker 3 (44:27):
Yeah, go ahead.
So it's a story far older thanI am right, this is an ancient
Greek story, aesop's Fables.
It's been reused acrosscultures and time, but I think
it's a really illustrative story.
The story is about this wagoneris out pulling his oxen cart
down the road and suddenly hiswooden wheel literally gets
stuck in a rut.
(44:47):
We talk about getting in a rut.
This was the days where youactually could get a wheel stuck
in a rut and that was a badthing.
So the wagon is stuck in thisrut and he's like oh man, this
sucks, how do I get out of this?
And so he prays to the gods andprays to Hercules, like, please
, you know, save me, help me,get this wagon out from the rut.
And so Hercules shows up and he, you know, looks at this wagon
(45:08):
and he's like, well, lean intothis thing.
Like, have you even triedgetting the wagon out?
Have you, like, leaned in andurged your oxen forward and
pushed on the cart to get it outof the rut, or did you just
stop and complain and hopesomeone else would solve this
for you?
And so the wagoner's like, okay, fine, and you know, grumbles
and leans into it, wouldn't youknow?
(45:29):
By urging his oxen on andleaning into that cart, the cart
begins to move and he gets outof that rut.
And so sort of the moral thatcomes from this is like if
you're feeling plateaued orstuck in business or you know,
like what got you here is notgetting you where you want to go
, you can wish and want forchange, but that doesn't do
anything.
You've actually got toimplement and take action and
lean into that cart that getsyou out of that rut.
(45:51):
It's not hoping, it's takingaction.
So any ideas you have from notjust this episode but any of the
episodes of the Fire the manpodcast, like it's great if you
have an idea, but like write itdown and then schedule a time
and go execute on it, that'swhat drives change, is
implementation.
Speaker 2 (46:10):
Yes, I really, I really really like that.
Take action and I like thestory I'm glad that you shared,
even during the fire round.
So, before we wrap up to theFiring the man Nation, get your
hands on Jeremy's full playbookof tried and true strategies
today.
The book is called yourBusiness Growth Playbook.
(46:32):
It's available onyourbusinessgrowthplaybookcom.
Also on Amazon.
I have links in the show notesfor both of those.
But get that and support Jeremy.
Jeremy, thank you so much foryour time today and we'll talk
to you later.
Thanks for inviting me on.
This was a ton of fun.
Welcome everyone to the Firing the man podcast, a
show for anyone who wants to betheir own boss.
If you sit in a cubicle everyday and know you are capable of
more, then join us.
This show will help you build abusiness and grow your passive
income streams in just a fewshort hours per day.
And now your hosts, serialentrepreneurs David Shomer and
(00:22):
Ken Wilson.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Welcome everyone to the Firing the man podcast,
where we spotlight entrepreneurswho've taken the leap from
employee to business owner andare building something on their
own terms.
I'm your host, and today we'rejoined by a powerhouse in the
world of business strategyJeremy Shapiro.
Jeremy is a seasoned serialentrepreneur with decades of
(00:46):
experience helping establishedbusiness owners break through
growth plateaus, scalesustainably and achieve what he
calls true entrepreneurialfreedom.
He's not just another businesscoach.
Jeremy is known for his uniqueability to simplify complex
ideas and translate them intopractical, actionable steps that
(01:06):
drive real results.
He's the author of the new bookyour Business Growth Playbook
Breakthrough Strategies to Scaleyour Business.
For Business Owners Who'veOutgrown Hustle, it is a must
read and is available now.
This is going to be a greatread for founders ready to move
beyond the grind mode intostrategic, scalable growth.
(01:29):
Jeremy's insights have beenfeatured on NPR Morning Edition,
fox News, pbs and hundreds ofpodcasts, and today he's here to
talk with us about scalingsmart, leading with clarity and
building a business that doesnot run on burnout.
Whether you're deep in thetrenches of e-commerce,
launching a new venture orlooking to scale beyond six or
(01:51):
seven figures, this conversationis packed with wisdom you can
apply right now.
Let's dive into mindset,methods and strategies with
Jeremy Shapiro.
Jeremy, welcome to the show.
Speaker 3 (02:03):
Thank you so much for inviting me on.
Excited to be here.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
Absolutely.
I have to congratulate you.
You are on a short list oftwo-time guests on the Firing
man podcast.
It is an elite club and you arenow part of that elite club.
Welcome back.
Speaker 3 (02:18):
Thank you.
We get jackets on three visits,is that right?
Monogram jacket.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
Yeah, that's right.
So yeah, Green Jacket, there wego.
So well, good stuff.
So since we've last talked, youhave been working on a book
titled your Business GrowthPlaybook, and it's geared
towards founders who've outgrownhustle.
What does that mean to you andwhy do you think a lot of
(02:44):
entrepreneurs get stuck there?
Speaker 3 (02:46):
You know, it's interesting as we look at growth
right, from someone who wantsto start a business to getting
going, hustling, grinding andreally validating your business
idea right Like the things youdo on a day-to-day basis to
prove out your business idea andget it off the ground are
different than what it takes toscale that, to go beyond being a
solopreneur to building a team,to differentiating product line
(03:09):
and so on.
So one of the things I oftensee newer business owners do is
continue staying stuck at sortof like one frequency of work
right, not recognizing that whatgot you where you are now is
not what's going to get youwhere you want to go next.
And so really a lot of thiscomes down to that mindset shift
(03:30):
, of shifting out of thesolopreneur mindset, expanding
beyond market validation andmoving towards the scaling side.
Once you've got something thatyou know works well, now we can
build on that.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
Absolutely, absolutely.
Now in the book you talk aboutmoving from reactive chaos,
which I can say as growing mybusinesses I've been there for
sure.
So from reactive chaos tostrategic growth.
What is a sign that anentrepreneur or a business is
(03:59):
ready or overdue for this shiftor overdue for this shift?
Speaker 3 (04:03):
Yeah, you know, when we talk about burnout, or you
know, there's reactive chaos,right?
Another word for reactive chaosis firefighting.
So often, business owners, evenof larger companies, will find
themselves spending the dayreacting to everything, whether
it's, you know, opening youreyes in the morning, grabbing
your phone and looking at emailsand Slack messages and you know
(04:24):
, the social medias andeverything right and jumping
into the problems of the day andnext thing you know, it's the
end of the day, right, and allyou've done is react to the, the
things that keep popping up infront of you.
Right, that's one way ofworking, but none of that moves
the needle.
None of that moves the businessforward.
All that does is you've bailedthe water out and you're back to
(04:47):
where you were, but the nextday is just the same thing again
and again.
So, to shift out of thatreactive chaos, there's a few
things we've got to do, right?
So, if you're feeling thatyou're in that firefighting mode
, then that's step one, right,Recognize that.
But then step two to movebeyond.
That is a few things.
Right that.
But then step two to movebeyond.
That is a few things, right.
(05:07):
One is you got to make the timeto work on the business.
If all your time isfirefighting in the business,
you'll never get that time topatch the hole in the ship
instead of just bailing thewater out right.
You'll never have the time to,you know, to trench that fire
line versus just trying to takecare of the spreading fire.
So make the time in yourcalendar whether it's the first
hour of your day, or half a daya week, or a few days a month
(05:29):
right.
Carve out that time that'sdedicated to doing what it takes
to move the business forwardtowards where you want it to go.
This could be your strategicplanning.
This could be working on yourmarketing campaigns.
This could be getting the jobdescriptions out there and
interviewing people to hire andbuild out your team right.
Like.
There's a lot of things we canon using these products in the
business every day to keep theirdoors open and take care of
(05:50):
their customers.
(06:12):
Like many of us, had a lot ofpride in that product and wanted
to take great care of hisclients.
What that meant, though, was,as a solopreneur, he needed to
be by that phone and by theemail inbox if his customers
needed him, Because if theyneeded him, well, he better take
care of them, or else they'reoffline until he gets them
sorted out right.
The result of that was is hewas tied to this business.
It was this ball and chainaround him.
(06:33):
He couldn't put the time in togrow the business.
He wasn't able to get outdoorswhere he loved to be.
He was a mountain biker.
He couldn't get out in themountains, which was not just
good for his physical health andwellness, but like his mental
health.
And also, where do we usuallyget our best ideas when we're
away from the business?
He wasn't getting any of thoseneeds met, so one of the first
(06:54):
things we did was we helped himto figure out where a lot of the
time went and what the systemswere that were needed, and we
were able to get a full-timeperson on board virtual right
Contractor overseas handlingfrontline customer service.
What this meant was whencustomers emailed or called
during business hours, someoneelse was taking care of this.
(07:15):
This gave him back 40 hours ofhis week.
That he wasn't fightingfrontline fires, that he could
step away from the business getback to the mountains.
Or he could step away from thebusiness.
Get back to the mountains, orhe could reinvest in the
business and get new accounts byworking on sales, get new
customers, by working on themarketing side of things right,
Work on the product, figure outwhat's next and all the
(07:35):
important stuff.
That's the real work on thebusiness that he couldn't do
before because he was doing allthe work in the business and
that's that really powerfulshift from that burnout right
and the firefighting to gettingyou back to growth.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
Absolutely.
Now you said one word.
I want to drill into this.
You said process.
You focus on building a process, and I think this is something
you know.
I've heard a lot about this andyou've interacted with
thousands of business owners.
What does a good process looklike?
(08:11):
Or how do you know that you'vearrived?
Because this is coming from aguy who's written a lot of SOPs
that have went to die on GoogleDrive and never be opened again,
and so what does this look likewhen it's functioning well?
Speaker 3 (08:27):
Yeah, so you touched on a few interesting things
there, right?
One of them that I love is thisidea of a process being done.
I argue that your SOPs arenever actually done right.
When we create a new process ora system, there's only three
outcomes that we're going to getwith that right.
When we create a new process ora system, there's only three
outcomes that we're going to getwith that right.
The ideal one we want, thehappy path, is that someone else
(08:50):
runs the system and gets theresult that you want, or the
result that you would havegotten had you done it on your
own right.
That's where we want to be.
In reality, when the systemstarts getting used, what we're
going to find is a personfollows your system, but the
system wasn't complete yet.
There was a detail, there was apiece of things you forgot to
document or that you thought wasclear.
That wasn't clear, right.
(09:10):
That comes up when you use yourown system, but more so when
other people start using yoursystem.
So your system is open torevision, all right.
The third outcome is going tobe the system is now correct and
is proven out, but someone justdoesn't use it, and so they
don't get the result that youwant, right, and that's just a
matter of coaching andretraining and getting your team
back to using the systems.
(09:31):
Okay, so our systems evolve,right, and, as our business
needs, change over time.
One thing that I have in all ofour systems is not just the
date the system was createdright, but the date that it was
last reviewed right, and maybeit's the same and nothing's
changed, but at least we can saywe've gone through it and it's
all the same.
But oftentimes, when I'mworking with business owners who
(09:51):
do have systems which is fewerthan you might think right what
we find is that their businesshas moved on and a system is no
longer accurate, but the teamhas just learned it and has used
it, and the team has evolved todo something different than
what we have documented.
And so when we review thatsystem, we go through and we
realize what parts no longerapply, what parts need revision
(10:13):
and what we can change to bringthe system back to current what
the team is currently doing.
This means when you hiresomeone, you can train them on
the new system.
This means, if you don't getthe result you want, you can
fall back to your system, and soon All right.
And that second thing I want totouch on that you mentioned is,
you know the Google Drive fullof documents that go to die
there.
Yeah, creating systems is funfor some of us, right, it's
(10:34):
enjoyable to document this downand they're so vital for
training.
But if we don't actively manageby those systems right, if the
team doesn't use us on anongoing basis, if we don't
review them from time to time,then, yeah, the systems go
somewhere to die.
And it's okay, you know, oncesomeone gets their reps in and
they know how to do it, to notbe looking at the system side by
(10:55):
side.
But I find that, you know, asuccessful system has a few
components, sort of threeversions of it, if you will
right.
One is like a really clear,succinct definition of success.
Secondly is more your checklistto inspect that result of what
makes a successful outcome.
And the third is the exhaustivelist of the steps and things
(11:16):
involved.
Right, training uses that lastone.
Training someone new uses thatlonger list.
Managing from a self-managementstandpoint can use the
checklist.
And then the self-sanity checkuses that clear, succinct
definition of success.
And those last two are the onesthat you manage by.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
It almost seems like you are talking about systems
and a culture of systems asbeing one in the same, and so,
as a business owner, what aresome things that you can do to
create that culture that'srespective of systems?
(11:57):
Is it an SOP day every quarter?
Is it new employee training?
What do you think?
Speaker 3 (12:06):
Yeah, where we've seen this be a challenge is
sometimes we have businessowners that have staff that's
been with them forever and maybetheir business has plateaued so
they're not in a growth mode,right?
They're not looking to documentand train new staff, it's just
them and their small team, andthey've been doing this for 10
years and nothing has changed.
That can be really hard toculturally shift to SOPs, and
(12:28):
that's not because you can't putthem in place, but there can be
resistance from the team, right?
So when we change theconversation from like you
versus an employer, you versus ateam member, and change the
conversation to be around whereyour business is going and what
that vision, mission, purposeare, now everyone can get behind
that, from existing team to newteam.
And now your SOPs are merely inservice of that bigger picture,
(12:53):
right?
So instead of having aconversation with someone around
, why didn't you follow thesystem?
Now we're talking about, hey,for us to get to this place.
We all agreed we want to go.
How can we use this systembetter to make sure we get there
?
Once you have a system, in thisculture of systems, revising the
(13:13):
systems becomes far moreculturally.
There's a far better culturalfit, right, because now we
understand that these aren'twritten in stone documents, but
they're living and breathing.
So when we change up the way wedo things, when we expand our
workflows or our processes, weupdate the document with our
team not for them, but with them.
(13:35):
Our team, not for them, butwith them.
And that brings them into thatconversation.
It's not the word coming downfrom on high about how they've
got to do it.
It's a process they'veparticipated in, right?
So if you're trying to get SOPsin place for the first time
with a team that doesn't havethem, have them create the first
draft of it, create it withthem, revise it with them, and
(13:55):
they now have ownership in thatdocument, in that process and an
eye on what they're buildingwith you.
And that could be the powerfuldifference between being told
how to do it and being part ofthe creation.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
Absolutely.
I really like that, and I'vegot one last question on systems
, and then we're going to moveon.
As we sit here chatting in Q32025, where do you see systems
living?
So is it on Asana or ClickUp ora Google Doc?
(14:28):
I've been in all of thoseplaces and I like to bounce
around about every year and ahalf, and so I'm just curious
any platforms that seem to do agood job for long-term
implementation of systems?
Speaker 3 (14:42):
Man.
I've seen and I've tried somany systems over the years.
I know multiple companies whotheir entire SaaS platform is
just for documentation and allof this, and some of those have
felt like overkill, especiallybecause it's one more system,
one more login and so on.
I've also successfully usedGoogle Docs, right.
(15:03):
Google Drive, like that, isalso a usable, good system.
I've also built our ownplatforms, right.
I have SaaS products that haveincorporated in a system for
SOPs and systems.
We've really used everythingunder the sun, right.
The key piece to all of this is,whatever system you're going to
use, you want to make sure youcan easily organize your systems
(15:27):
and pretty much all platformsdo that that your team can
easily get access to them, thatyou can easily revise them,
right.
So you know, I've been doingthis for decades.
So a lot of businesses I'veworked with came from a time of
where you have these documents,you print them out, they go in
three ring binders and go onbookshelves and go in desks for
team members to use at differentstations around a business,
(15:48):
right, and that's fine, right.
That was from a very you know,analog world and that is still a
good way to have systems, infact, when working with clients
and moving towards an exit.
It's pretty valuable whenyou're selling your company to
not just have tribal knowledgebut to be able to show your
buyer that we have thedocumentation.
Here's the entire operations forthe whole company, right?
(16:10):
You know how everything in thisbusiness works, versus them
needing to learn it all from youfrom scratch.
So there's value in that,whether it's literally printed
on paper, it's in Google Docs,it's in a custom system or
somewhere, but you do want it inone place, not nine, right?
I had one client I've actuallyhad a few clients who sort of
have a Google Sheets where theylist all the different systems
(16:31):
and each of the sheets links toa document, and that starts to
get kind of complicated.
It's a nice idea, but it startsto overcomplicate, right?
So have your folder structure,have your documents right.
Have them be printable so theycould be printed, shareable at
an organizational or folderlevel, not individual document,
(16:52):
and easily editable and reallyany system, so long as you pick
one, it can be fine for you.
Speaker 2 (16:57):
I think that is very good and practical advice on
that topic.
So one thing that I hadmentioned in the intro is you
have a knack for taking verycomplex things and simplifying
them, and I'm curious what aresome areas of a business that
you often see entrepreneursoverthinking?
Speaker 3 (17:20):
What are some areas of a business that you often see
entrepreneurs overthinking,that this simplification process
is really beneficial.
It's funny, speakingspecifically to our e-commerce
space, pricing anddifferentiation can often be
overcomplicated.
I see owners overthinking whatthe pricing model is going to be
(17:42):
and chasing the competition andtrying to figure out how to
undercut the competition onpricing.
And you know, looking at acrowded marketplace and being
just another product in a busymarketplace right, If your whole
business is built on beinganother of something else,
another commodity, that's areally hard place to command the
pricing you might want, right.
And so one of the strategies Italk about often is pricing.
Well, guess what, If you're ina commoditized industry, you
(18:02):
don't have the ability tocontrol pricing.
Your competition does.
When you start to differentiateand when you have a brand and
when there's customer loyalty,that starts to bring that power
back to you to set your ownprices.
So I work with clients a lot.
One of the topics that comes upis pricing.
And it may sound kind of pithy,but if you just increase your
(18:23):
prices, that does great thingsfor your business.
But so often I hear frombusiness owners this pushback of
you know, but I can't justraise my prices because baked in
for you is what your pricing is.
And often business owners lookat this race to the bottom of
how do I discount thecompetition?
When really what we want to beasking is how do we
differentiate?
So in our customer's mind,there's no other choice but to
(18:46):
work with you.
Once you are in a market of justyou, you can now command the
pricing.
So let's look at asubscription-based business, for
example.
If you have, say, a $40 a monthsubscription that your
customers pay you and weincrease that to $50, right,
We've now increased that pricing.
(19:07):
You know there's a 25% increaseover what you had before.
Your cost of goods hasn'tchanged, right?
What it costs you to fulfillthat customer is the same.
So your profit margin just wentup.
Let's say, for example, thatyou're all in cost of goods is
$30.
And so your profit margin is 10.
And sorry listeners, I knowwe're going through a lot of
(19:28):
numbers here right, you wereselling at 40 and it costs you
30,.
Your profit was 10.
We now increase that price to50.
Your profit was 10.
We now increase that price to50.
That means your profit is now$20.
We have literally doubled yourprofit by increasing your
pricing.
Only 25%?
Oh no.
But what if you lose somecustomers?
You might lose some subscribers.
(19:48):
You also, by the way, might notright.
But let's say you do lose somecustomers, that's okay, Because
your profits have doubled.
You could technically afford tolose half your customers and
still have the same profitmargin, right?
So when we start thinking aboutthe numbers that way, that
(20:09):
becomes really powerful.
In one of my businesses we had,we faced exactly this challenge.
We had a subscription-basedbusiness and our customers were
paying us.
I think at the time it was like19 bucks a month, right, and we
were debating this increase to29.
And we were pushed to make thatchange and we said, look, let's
just experiment with this.
(20:29):
Right, we always look forwhat's the cheapest and easiest
way we can test something.
So instead of trying to changesubscriptions for all of our
existing customers right, wesaid let's just adjust the
pricing for new customersexisting, we won't even tell
about new pricing, right,they're fine.
So we just tested out on thesales pages the increase in the
price and, wouldn't you know it,we didn't see much of a change
(20:53):
in conversion, which, of course,the harsh takeaway is like oh
my gosh, what if we'd done thissooner?
Right.
So we're kicking ourselves fornot doing it sooner.
But making that small change ina really small, easy to test way
proved out the concept that themarket would accept that higher
pricing, right.
And so then, of course, what doyou do next?
(21:14):
You test again, we put theupsell in place, you add in this
is stuff I talk about in thebook Right, controlling what we
(21:36):
charged.
So you can do that Experimentwith that pricing, find the
easiest way to do that.
It doesn't need to becomplicated.
It doesn't need to be acomplicated plan of messaging to
existing customers and so on,because that can be a mess.
But it can also be simplifiedand done right.
Speaker 2 (21:53):
I like that.
I really like that approach.
Right, I like that.
I really like that approach.
One topic I'd like to move tois scaling, and this is I think
this is has kind of gainednotoriety as like a sexy word, a
word that people love to talkabout scale, and so why don't we
start with what is scaling Like?
Speaker 1 (22:15):
yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:16):
What does that look?
Speaker 3 (22:17):
like.
So I think scaling there's sortof this balancing act that we
do when we scale right, butscaling generally means growing,
well, growing to what right.
So first of all, we've got tobe clear, as a business owner,
what we're trying to build.
Because scaling, by the way, isnot for everyone and it's not
(22:37):
to be lusted after per se.
If what you want is a certainsize business, right.
If you're looking for a certainyou know income for yourself,
or a certain you know value forexit and all these things like
that's great.
But get clarity on what that is.
For many business owners, youmay be in a size where, like,
things are good, right, youmight be happy with the hours
you're putting in and thecashflow that's coming out, and
(22:59):
that is an okay thing to run, to.
Let it run its course, right,you may not need to build the
next deck of corn, but if that'swhat you want to build, well,
then you know there's steps toget there.
So scaling those two piecesthat need to kind of work in
lockstep as you grow comes downto on the one side, is your
sales, marketing and getting newcustomers and increased revenue
(23:19):
in, and then with that, theother side of the equation is
the operations, right.
So I've seen some businessesscale up the operation side
first, right.
And then you're looking arounduh wondering where the customers
are, and you've got all thisoverhead from staff and
warehouse space and operationsand expenses to support a
business you don't have yet,right, but you can grow into.
(23:42):
And I've, on the flip side,seen businesses where we scale
up the growth side on the frontend for customers, right.
So now you have all thesecustomers coming in and you
don't have product for them orteam to support them or onboard
them or fulfill stuff.
So too much of one is not agood thing, right?
You're looking to, you know,ratchet each of these in turn as
(24:03):
you grow, all right.
So that, in a nutshell, is whatscaling is.
But which do you do first?
Well, the first thing you do isfigure out where you want to go
, what you want to grow to.
So in business, no matter whatany of our businesses that we
have, there's only threedirections and only three
outcomes for our business.
One is we're going to pass iton to our kids.
(24:25):
Are we really going to do that?
Like, if you think about it inyour heart of hearts, do your
you know, do your kids want yourbusiness?
Will your business model evenmake sense a generation from now
?
For most folks that's just nota viable direction.
It was generations ago, butthat happens far less and less
these days.
All right, so let's go aheadand scratch off the table.
That's probably not an optionfor us.
(24:46):
The second direction and this iswhere, unfortunately, most
businesses go is they get runinto the ground At some point.
You just close up shop and thebusiness is done and that's okay
.
In fact, a lot of baby boomersnow, you know, are at the point
in their business where theywant to get out.
They don't want to run into theground, they know their kids
won't take it and they're sortof looking for that exit.
Right.
(25:06):
But if they don't find the exit, then they just close up shop.
Which brings us to our thirdoption, and that is that you
actually exit.
You sell the business.
So of the three passing it onto your kids, closing up shop or
selling the business which oneseems like the direction that
you might want to go in yourbusiness, and for most folks,
(25:27):
given those choices, we looktowards exit.
And so now we've got to decidewho the category of buyer is
going to be for us and howthey're going to value our
company and how they're going tovalue our company and what
they're going to look for.
And now we can track towardsbuilding so that we are a very
attractive company for our idealbuyer to acquire.
Speaker 2 (25:49):
I like it.
I really like that Now for theentrepreneurs that are feeling
stuck or they feel like they'veplateaued and that I have
personally experienced this,where things are rocking and
rolling and then they just kindof taper off.
And so when this happens to meor to anybody listening, when
(26:11):
they feel that plateau, what aresome things that they can do or
they can take action on to bustthrough that and continue to
grow?
Speaker 3 (26:21):
Yeah, I want to answer that, but can we switch
mics for a moment?
Absolutely, can I ask you whenyou face that and you hit that
plateau, as so many of us do,what did you do?
How did you get back to growth?
Speaker 2 (26:36):
Yeah.
So I'm in the physical productspace and I view listings as
fishing hooks in the water, andthe more fishing hooks I have in
the water, the more likely I amto catch a fish, and so one of
the things that I did was spenta ton of time focusing on
(26:58):
products.
Now, that causes cash flowconstraints, and so I got
creative on dropshipping or lowMOQs or negotiating payment
terms, but I was really focusedthere.
One last thing I would tell youis I got out from behind my
laptop.
(27:20):
I fall into this maybe everysix months, where I will be in
my office and not leave and I'mgrinding.
I'm going from meeting tomeeting, task to task.
I kind of like it.
I kind of hate it.
It's just this weirdentrepreneurial rollercoaster.
Kind of hate it.
It's just this weirdentrepreneurial rollercoaster.
(27:41):
And I will go on a vacation or Iwill go on a walk and all of a
sudden there's clarity and I'llshare with you a recent
development is I really like AIand we should talk about AI if
you'd like to.
But you can now converse withthe smartest being that's ever
(28:03):
existed.
You can put in AirPods and youcan have a conversation with
them, and that's one of the like.
Helping.
Knowing that that is an avenueto engage with AI has been great
, because, at the end of the day, I want to get out from behind
my desk and I don't want towatch a YouTube video on how to
use AI or prompts, but I can goon a walk and talk to an advisor
(28:28):
, and one thing I'll tell youthat I've been doing is I will
establish a board of directors.
Warren Buffett and MotherTeresa Give me five pieces of
advice based on these people, um, and you can make it whoever
you want, and it's fun andthere's really no doubt you can
ask it dumb questions and it'llgive you responses.
(28:49):
So no judgment either on thattoo none none, and so it's
private conversation, and and soI.
That's a long answer, butheavily focused on revenue
generating activities gettingout from behind my laptop and,
most recently, talking to AI asif it's a sentient being.
Speaker 3 (29:12):
That's really cool, and what I love is all three of
those touch on the exactstrategy that I was going to
share to answer the question.
So masterfully done.
So what got you where you arenow in your business right to
the plateau is not what's goingto get you to the next level.
Right, I've seen over time, inbusinesses, growth usually
(29:36):
happens like these S-shapedcurves.
In businesses, growth usuallyhappens like these S-shaped
curves, right, when we talkabout this idealized, you know,
hockey stick up into the rightkind of growth that companies so
aspire to.
What we don't realize is, if wego forward in time and we zoom
out, that hockey stick doesn'tgo forever, right, like, at some
point that hockey stick startsto plateau and it has this
(29:57):
S-shape.
So at the point you're startingto get that traction and
takeoff for your S, recognizethat history has shown us that
doesn't go on forever and thatthat's going to plateau.
So what is the next right?
What is going to get you?
You took the escalator from youknow the, you know the, the
lobby to the first floor.
There's a different escalatorthat's from first to second,
(30:17):
second to third and so on.
So we've got to stack those andlook towards that future growth
, okay, great.
So what does that look like?
Well, we got to take a stepback and recognize that there
may be sales channels thatdidn't make sense for us at that
last stage, that start to makesense for us now.
There may be products that ourmarket wasn't ready for or our
business wasn't ready for whenwe launched our last stage of
(30:38):
growth, that we are now readyfor.
So be open to those new saleschannels, those new products,
the new pricing, new marketing,new channels and all new
partners, all these things,because one of those is going to
be the game changer For aprevious business of mine.
We were using Google AdWords inthe early days, right, and we
found that our ads were doingreally well.
(31:00):
For every dollar we spent, wewere getting about $4 in upfront
revenue from new leads thatcame in, which was great.
We're really happy with that.
So what do you do when it'sworking?
You scale it.
So we spent more on our ads andnow we're at the point we'd
spend a dollar and get threeback, still good.
So we scaled it up and it wasdollar out, $2 in, and we got to
(31:21):
the point where we kind ofmaxed out that channel that for
every dollar that went out wewere getting a dollar back in,
so we were breaking even on thefront end.
Thankfully we had recurringrevenue and so longer term over
customer lifetime value right,which is super important for
businesses to know.
We were still okay with that,but we then saw it started to go
(31:44):
negative.
We were spending a dollar andgetting like 50 cents in and we
took our eye off the ball.
And this was a problem becauseit was a channel that was
growing and we also didn't knowa ton about.
We were just seeing successwith it and so we started to be
losing money on that.
We were hitting a plateau.
In fact, we were arguably overa plateau and on a downward
slide from there.
So we changed up a few things.
(32:04):
One is we brought in aspecialist who knows that
channel really well and has eyeson many businesses, not just
ours.
With a few key changes theywere able to turn that back
around.
So we were profitable again onthe front end not just breakeven
, but profitable.
So they turned that around.
That helped us to break aplateau by bringing in someone
who knew that existing channelbetter than we did.
(32:25):
They knew how to scale it andthat was really powerful.
But, secondly, we also added onother channels that we weren't
using at the time.
We also implemented a number ofthe strategies I talk about in
the book to do more with thesales channels we already had
right, the incoming customers.
We did more with them.
And secondly, strategies tosell more and do more with our
(32:47):
existing customer base.
So, even if we never sawanother new customer come in and
even if we saw nothing no newchannels or anything there was
more we could do with ourexisting recurring revenue-based
customers to continue scalingthe business.
Now, of course, we didn't shutoff the front end.
We kept that going right, andso we were able to get back to
(33:07):
scale.
And these are the strategiesthat you know, I've used for
decades, not just in my ownbusinesses, but with all of our
clients as well.
Right, this is, you know, rinseand repeat recipes that are
successful, that can breakthrough that plateau.
So, in summary, there be opento trying the thing that didn't
work before but that might getyou to that next step, but it
(33:30):
wasn't for your previous step.
Speaker 2 (33:34):
So you said what got you say to a million is not
going to get you to 10 million,correct, and when I think of
systems or software or thingslike that, it does not weigh
heavily on me.
When I think of people that'stough, the people that helped me
get to a million dollars.
They've been along for the ride, but I know they're not going
(33:58):
to get me to 10.
Yeah, and that weighs heavilyon me and I can.
I know there are people I'veheld onto for way, way too long
because I like them and and soany any strategies or ways to
navigate that to where you canhave a a clean conscience is a
comfortable pillow type ofscenario.
Speaker 3 (34:21):
Well, if we look at it so, let's touch on the
oftentimes the scariest personto swap out in a company, and
that's you as the founder, right?
You as the CEO.
And you're the CEO simplybecause you started the company
and when you were one person,you were CEO and never gave that
leadership role up.
At a certain point in the scale, you start to have your C-suite
, including, at some stages,bringing on a CEO to actually
(34:46):
run the operations.
Now, the CEO who gets you fromfounding to your million or your
10 million is very differentthan the CEO who's experienced
and has a depth of knowledge ofrunning a $10 million business
and scaling it to a hundred,right.
So it's rare but possible.
You'll find a CEO who can gettrained up on that and just
(35:06):
their own business More oftenthan not.
If we look at, like you know,big public companies and all the
name brands, we know there areoften different CEOs who come in
at different seasons and stagesof growth for a reason.
That's where their expertise isthe same.
The same in athletics, right?
You know the same in many kindsof things.
You bring in the rightleadership or the right coach
for that size business to get it.
(35:27):
You know who has experiencegetting to that next stage of
growth In terms of the existingteam and different roles?
Well, usually there's.
You know, for example, we've hadclients where the business
owner did all the marketingright, because it's what you do
as a small company.
And then at some point you bringon someone who full-time runs
marketing and as you grow youthen might bring on a CMO right,
(35:51):
because the person who is doingmarketing in your business is
probably not CMO material.
They just don't have theexperience doing it.
If they did, you would havehired them as a CMO, but that
would have been overkill, right.
So you're sort of you'reputting layers in between versus
graduating people up, andthat's okay.
So you know, in this example,you know a client went from
(36:12):
doing the marketing to hiring amarketing person to then putting
a CMO between them and theperson doing the marketing to
then having a marketing team,right, you start to have
specialists, not justgeneralists, on the team and
you'll find your existing teammembers probably are really good
at one thing that they weredoing and they now get to go
from we'll use marketing stillas the example from running
social and ppc and content andseo and all of these things.
(36:36):
So now they get to specializein the one thing they really are
passionate about or the areathey're really good at, and that
actually is often a relief forteam members to have that
specialization.
Speaker 2 (36:46):
I think that's a really really good point, that
this does not need to be a sadending and oftentimes in that
zero to a million, you have teamoperations, people that are
doing 10 things and as you growthey can be more specialized in
areas that they like.
Speaker 3 (37:04):
I really like that answer up a level that they
never wanted to go to.
And the two areas I see thismost common are you'll have a
sales rep who's a phenomenalsales rep, so you assume because
of your best sales rep, thatthey should manage the sales
(37:25):
team.
Those are vastly differentskills and oftentimes you'll
find someone fails outgloriously and horrifically
because they were thrust into amanagement role when they were
really just good on the frontlines as a sales rep.
And the second area we see islike with developers.
You'll take someone who's areally good coder, developer,
(37:46):
you know, and so on, and movethem up to managing a
development team Vastlydifferent skill set who want to
grow and take on thoseleadership roles, yes, but when
you move to managing a team, youare using a different skill set
.
You need different educationand training and it's something
(38:08):
you've never done before and infact you are farther away from
the work that got you there thanyou might want to be.
So, yes, people can move up,but don't assume because
someone's good at doing a jobthat they'll be good at managing
people to do that job.
Speaker 2 (38:24):
That is a really, really good point, and often the
best technical people are theones that get promoted to
managerial.
And yeah, you're absolutelyright.
Speaker 3 (38:35):
It's a classic, yeah, you're absolutely right, it's a
classic.
Yeah, now, before we get intothe fire round, we touched on it
a little bit, but I reallyenjoy asking everybody I come
into contact with how are youusing AI?
Yeah, so we've seen AI be we'reusing AI and seeing AI being
(38:57):
used in a really interestingrole, and I realized that by the
time anyone hears theseconversations, anything about AI
these days is like immediatelydated the next day.
So take this conversation on AIwith a grain of salt.
It may not last the test oftime.
We've seen AI be reallypowerful in supportive roles
versus replacement roles, right?
So, for example, one place thatmany companies have tried to
(39:18):
use AI, and have for well over adecade, is on frontline
customer service and putting AIor chatbots between their
support team and customers.
And, yes, for getting access tofrequently asked questions or
answering that frontlinequestion.
It can be helpful.
It can be helpful, but it'smore often supportive, in still
(39:39):
maintaining a human connectionright with the customer by
providing the resources andthings we need and getting
access to the resource, but notreplacing a person entirely
right.
We've seen AI in the exampleyou were sharing earlier in this
, you know, being a soundingboard, right, helping to develop
(40:01):
some ideas or sketch out anoutline or provide a
counterpoint to an idea.
Right.
So from a developmentstandpoint, like an ideation
standpoint, it can help to shortthat timeline, poking holes in
your assumptions, for example,or providing a an opposing
perspective.
So those have been reallypowerful ways.
We've seen business owners useit and of course there's you
know, uh, all the places we'veseen it from summarizing the
inflow and the outflow ofinformation, one area where I
(40:25):
thought it was reallyinteresting to use, so the book
that that we have out yourbusiness growth playbook.
That is like my original contentfrom you know my decades of
experience doing this stuff.
(40:54):
But what I found is that we hada number of folks who wanted to
take an early look at creatingthis multi two-person host
format audio book overview.
So it took the whole book andconsolidated it down to like a
20-minute conversation aroundwhat the book is, and I found
folks love that high-leveloverview of what we're going
(41:15):
over in the book.
It was longer and more in depththan just a description of the
book and it was enjoyable toconsume with multiple
personalities talking about thisin a conversational format.
But then for me, like I'm areader much more than I am a
listener, I, you know, want toconsume by reading, so I was
(41:36):
able to use AI again to get thetranscript of that and then the
summary of that.
So it was sort of thisiterative process of using AI to
adjust the format to differentaudience members, taking the
original content but producingthat and getting it out in a way
that people want to consume.
So it's been super helpful froma ideation standpoint, as well
(42:01):
as from taking your originalwork and creating derivative
work for formats your consumerswant.
Speaker 2 (42:07):
I like it.
I like it.
Well, jeremy, this has been anoutstanding conversation.
Before we wrap up the interview, let's go into the fire round,
love round.
So what is your favorite book?
Speaker 3 (42:22):
Well, naturally, your business growth playbook.
So, yes, love my book, butreally, when I look at
foundational books, they'rebooks that I find myself
recommending all the time and infact, about once a week I share
out and publish the latest bookthat I'm loving and think folks
would enjoy.
But a few have stood the testof time that I still continue to
(42:42):
recommend.
One of those is MichaelGerber's E-Myth Revisited.
It's huge.
I refer back to that a lot.
Robert Kiyosaki's CashflowQuadrant when we talk about
moving from an employee toself-employed, to business owner
and investor all of that's onthe cover of the book, but uh,
you know, jump diving deeperinto that book is, uh, I find
really helpful and I recommendthat a lot.
(43:02):
Um, elliot goldrat's book thegoal is excellent.
Um, and when it comes to corevalues, mission, vision, purpose
and all that and thatcollaborative approach of doing
that with your team, the go-tobook on that is traction nice,
nice.
Speaker 2 (43:16):
I'm a traction disciple.
Um, all right.
What is one thing you do notmiss about working for the man?
Speaker 3 (43:25):
a job is that someone else has a say in how you spend
your time, and that's like whatprison is, where someone tells
(43:48):
you you know how your time willbe spent.
And a job is that same thing.
So when you run your ownbusiness, you, for good or
better or for worse decide howyour day looks and what you
spend your time doing.
So the good news is you're yourown boss.
The bad news is you're your ownboss.
So, yeah, get control of yourcalendar.
Speaker 2 (44:02):
Very nice.
And last question what do youthink sets apart successful
e-commerce entrepreneurs fromthose who give up, fail or never
get started?
Speaker 3 (44:13):
Oh, my gosh Hands down.
Implementation, execution,action, call it what you want,
but taking the action, gettingstuff done.
I can share a quick story foryou on that if you want, but I
know it's a rapid fire round.
Speaker 2 (44:27):
Let's hear it.
Speaker 3 (44:27):
Yeah, go ahead.
So it's a story far older thanI am right, this is an ancient
Greek story, aesop's Fables.
It's been reused acrosscultures and time, but I think
it's a really illustrative story.
The story is about this wagoneris out pulling his oxen cart
down the road and suddenly hiswooden wheel literally gets
stuck in a rut.
(44:47):
We talk about getting in a rut.
This was the days where youactually could get a wheel stuck
in a rut and that was a badthing.
So the wagon is stuck in thisrut and he's like oh man, this
sucks, how do I get out of this?
And so he prays to the gods andprays to Hercules, like, please
, you know, save me, help me,get this wagon out from the rut.
And so Hercules shows up and he, you know, looks at this wagon
(45:08):
and he's like, well, lean intothis thing.
Like, have you even triedgetting the wagon out?
Have you, like, leaned in andurged your oxen forward and
pushed on the cart to get it outof the rut, or did you just
stop and complain and hopesomeone else would solve this
for you?
And so the wagoner's like, okay, fine, and you know, grumbles
and leans into it, wouldn't youknow?
(45:29):
By urging his oxen on andleaning into that cart, the cart
begins to move and he gets outof that rut.
And so sort of the moral thatcomes from this is like if
you're feeling plateaued orstuck in business or you know,
like what got you here is notgetting you where you want to go
, you can wish and want forchange, but that doesn't do
anything.
You've actually got toimplement and take action and
lean into that cart that getsyou out of that rut.
(45:51):
It's not hoping, it's takingaction.
So any ideas you have from notjust this episode but any of the
episodes of the Fire the manpodcast, like it's great if you
have an idea, but like write itdown and then schedule a time
and go execute on it, that'swhat drives change, is
implementation.
Speaker 2 (46:10):
Yes, I really, I really really like that.
Take action and I like thestory I'm glad that you shared,
even during the fire round.
So, before we wrap up to theFiring the man Nation, get your
hands on Jeremy's full playbookof tried and true strategies
today.
The book is called yourBusiness Growth Playbook.
(46:32):
It's available onyourbusinessgrowthplaybookcom.
Also on Amazon.
I have links in the show notesfor both of those.
But get that and support Jeremy.
Jeremy, thank you so much foryour time today and we'll talk
to you later.
Thanks for inviting me on.
This was a ton of fun.
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