September 2, 2025 • 45 mins
Ready to scale your Amazon business? Click here to book a strategy call. https://calendly.com/firingtheman/amazon
The difference between struggling to get responses and filling your calendar with qualified leads often comes down to one thing: how you structure your offer. Perrin Monker, Principal at RevAscension.io, reveals the counterintuitive psychology that drives successful cold outreach campaigns.
Most entrepreneurs make a critical mistake when reaching out to prospects - they position themselves at the center of their messaging. "This is what I do and why I'm great" rarely moves the needle. What actually works is flipping the script to center everything around your prospect's desired business outcomes. As Perrin explains, "We want to be humble when we come up with go-to-market strategies...look at the competition, see what other sharks are in the water."
Beyond crafting compelling offers, this episode dives deep into the technical aspects of cold email that most marketers get wrong. We debunk common myths (like the value of tracking open rates) and reveal why sending fewer emails from more accounts dramatically improves deliverability. You'll discover why asking for a prospect's time is fundamentally flawed compared to generating interest - a resource that, unlike time, is infinite and can be created through strategic messaging.
Whether you're trying to reach e-commerce businesses, SaaS clients, or any B2B audience, Perrin shares the frameworks that have filled calendars for businesses across industries. From prospect list building techniques to the surprising truth about CTAs that actually work, this conversation will transform how you approach outreach.
Ready to stop guessing what works in cold email? Visit RevAscension.io to see how data-driven frameworks can create predictable lead generation for your business. Your next client is just one strategic message away.
How to connect with Perrin?
Website: https://revascension.io/
Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/perrinmoncur/
Threads: https://www.threads.com/@perrmoncur
Ready to scale your Amazon business? Click here to book a strategy call. https://calendly.com/firingtheman/amazon
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome everyone to the Firing the man podcast, a
show for anyone who wants to betheir own boss.
If you sit in a cubicle everyday and know you are capable of
more, then join us.
This show will help you build abusiness and grow your passive
income streams in just a fewshort hours per day.
And now your hosts, serialentrepreneurs David Shomer and
(00:22):
Ken Wilson.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Welcome to Firing the man, the podcast for
entrepreneurs, business builderswho are ready to grow beyond
the hustle and step intoownership that truly scales.
I'm your host, david Shomer,and today's guest is someone
who's built systems andstrategies to help businesses
elevate fast.
Meet Perrin Monker, principalat RevAscensionio, a leading
(00:48):
growth agency that drivesmeasurable revenue through
tech-enabled frameworks, smartsales funnels and powerful
automation.
With a background in salesstrategy, process systems, data
analytics and CRM tools, perrinis passionate about turning good
businesses into growth machines.
He spent years fine-tuningoutreach strategies, mastering
(01:11):
cold messaging and buildingstreamlined pipelines that don't
just operate, they excel,bringing a blend of technology,
psychology and scalable systems.
Perrin helps ambitiousentrepreneurs and e-commerce
operators break free from themanual grind and architect
growth.
Today, we'll dive into how hecrafts elite, offers leverages,
(01:35):
automation to scale clientgrowth and builds repeatable
systems that free operators fromthe day-to-day Get ready.
This episode will challenge howyou think about business
development and show you justhow scalable your hustle can
become.
Perrin, welcome to the show.
Speaker 3 (01:55):
It's good to be here.
Man.
Appreciate you for having me.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
Absolutely, absolutely.
So to start things off, can youshare with our audience a
little bit about your backgroundand path in the
entrepreneurship world?
Speaker 3 (02:06):
Yeah, it starts way back when.
So I've been blessed.
My biggest role model in lifeis my father.
He's been an entrepreneur hisentire life.
So growing up I've seen, youknow, that entrepreneurial
spirit and kind of businesshustle.
So from a young age it was kindof ingrained in me.
But like many people, I fellinto the path of, you know,
(02:28):
going to college doing thatcorporate sort of path quickly.
It was so, so unhappy andthroughout the entire process
tried efforts to break away fromthat sort of cage that many of
us probably feel like we're inand started with dropshipping.
(02:48):
Actually that was the firstsort of business that I tried to
launch, not the best venture,but I believe failures you learn
a ton from.
Ended up in the crypto spacefor a little while.
Another failed venture, butagain learned so, so much and
eventually found myself at astartup company which focuses on
go-to-market strategies, leadgeneration and building sales
(03:11):
funnels for other B2B businesses.
After about a year of timethere really just like so
interested in the psychologybehind what makes a person act
or move in a B2B business sense,and decided to kind of deploy
those strategies and my own kindof twist and approach to it and
to what we do now, which is,you know, go-to-market
(03:34):
strategies, lead generation and,like sales funnel, execution
for a variety of different B2Bbusinesses.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
Very nice, very nice, and, would you say, your sweet
spot is email marketing.
Speaker 3 (03:46):
Yeah, email marketing and, more specifically, the
cold email approach.
You know email marketingencompasses consumer messaging,
b2b messaging.
We definitely focus on that B2Bside, cold marketing, cold
email marketing in the B2B realmside.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
cold marketing, cold email marketing in the B2B realm
Okay, very nice.
So just for our listeners, coldemail is going to be somebody
who's never heard from youbefore and who needs an
introduction to the topic andwhat's being discussed.
Is that a fair representation?
Speaker 3 (04:20):
That is very fair, and it is.
You know, there's many otherchannels that people are very
familiar with.
And really old school someoneknocking on your door, you know,
trying to hey, like your yard'sovergrown.
You didn't ask them to be there, but they tried to target you
because you had a problem youryard's overgrown.
At the end of the day, we wantto be helpful.
I think cold has a negativeconnotation or almost a stigma
(04:45):
to it, but yeah, you're totallyright, they don't know who you
are.
They might be aware they have aproblem, but we determine a
person, a stranger, who we canhelp, and we want to reach out
and let them know that, hey, wecan help you.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
Very nice, very nice.
And I actually met you througha mutual friend and client of
yours who, when I talked to him,he said, yeah, I've been
working with Perrin for a whileand you've been doing an awesome
job on getting their calendarsbooked with sales calls, and so
I'm curious what's the secretsauce that makes your outreach
(05:20):
work well?
Speaker 3 (05:22):
That's a really good question.
Work well.
That's a really good question.
I really believe, not in allthe bells and whistles, but a
really good foundation to anysort of marketing campaign.
So when I first started doingthis for all types of businesses
, it's really easy to get lostin the sauce of oh, I need the
coolest automation, the coolesttech, the fastest software.
(05:44):
Oh, I need the coolestautomation, the coolest tech,
the fastest software.
And we really peeled back thelayers.
I have over thousands ofdifferent implementations and
iterations of what makes a goodcold messaging and I believe it
is the fundamental offer thatyou go to market with.
For example, I have a lot ofpeople who are part know, part
(06:05):
of my client base, my partnerbase, and they sell advertising
services.
Right, and they take a product,they create ads for it and
they're like hey, I'm anadvertiser for, you know,
e-commerce products.
That's great, but it's not agood offer and what I mean by
that is it doesn't communicate abusiness outcome, and what I
mean by that is it doesn'tcommunicate a business outcome.
It doesn't communicate atransformation.
(06:28):
All you're doing is tellingsomeone who you are and what you
do, and we want to flip theframework and really position
your prospect or your potentialclient as the center of
everything and build an offerthat screams a business outcome
that they care about.
So you're no longer anadvertiser hey, I do advertising
(06:50):
for people like you.
You are.
I deliver this result for you.
So that's really been theframework.
We try to step back and peelback.
The secret sauce is at the verybeginning the strategy you
build, the offer you come upwith and the core principle that
you go to market with.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
Okay, okay, that makes a ton of sense and to me
that really speaks a lot to themessaging side of things, and
let's stay in that lane for alittle bit on the messaging side
of things.
Let's stay in that lane for alittle bit on on the messaging
side of things.
What are the the mortal sins ofof email marketing?
Are there?
What are?
What do we want to definitelyavoid for those people
implementing this in theirbusiness?
Speaker 3 (07:35):
Yeah, that's a really good, good question and to try
to like, keep it like groundedin the core offer like what are
the mortal sins?
Number one it's the belief thatyou are doing something that no
one else is doing.
I have a lot of people who kindof fail to recognize that there
is competition and it's almosttoo close-minded of an approach
(08:01):
when it comes to strategy.
I think there's a ton ofbenefits to looking at your
competitors, seeing how otherpeople position themselves and
really get an idea for how manyother sharks are in the water,
right.
So a mortal sin is to avoidlooking at your competitors and
almost approach things with alittle bit of an ego.
We want to be humble when wecome up with, you know, go to
(08:22):
market strategies, and that isone of the most important things
to do is look at thecompetition, see what other
sharks are in the water, youknow.
Another one is to, you know,fail to like understand your
customer.
I think a lot of ambitiousbusiness owners I talk to
(08:43):
believe that they already knowwhat their customer wants.
Things change all the time.
Market trends, new problems,new technologies come out,
especially in the e-commercespace.
I mean, you know, meta ads arealways changing Google ads.
Now we have AI search engine,yada, yada yada.
What your customer wantschanges over time and you know,
(09:04):
I always ask my partners to youknow, kind of shatter their
current belief and let's explorewhat your customer wants
together from step one.
So those are the two biggestthings and it's kind of funny,
it all goes back to not thinkingthat you know it all, stripping
back the belief that, hey, youare the smartest person in the
room and let's put your customerfirst.
(09:26):
Let's understand the world theylive in.
Let's understand the articles,the content they absorb.
Let's understand what peopleare saying on places like G2,
what kind of reviews they'releaving, what kind of YouTube
content's being posted.
Let's understand the world theylive in to come up with the
message that they care about.
Let's also center around theother messages that they're
(09:48):
getting, with getting bombardedwith on a daily basis.
So let's look at thecompetitors and let's live in
your customers world.
So the biggest sin is to not dothat right and to build it from
a perspective of.
This is what I have and what Ithink is cool about our current
product.
We want to completely runaround that.
Let's go to where your customeris and let's live and breathe
(10:10):
their world for a little bit.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
Very nice and to me that's a really, really good
answer.
On the messaging side of thingsand I'm glad that you pointed
out those mortal sins Now, whenI think about this, there's kind
of two components right.
There's the messaging and thenthere's the who.
Who are we sending this to, andwhat are some cold email
(10:36):
strategies in terms ofgenerating lists or finding a
relevant audience to send youroffer to?
Speaker 3 (10:44):
Yeah, that's a really good point and I have a total
cheat code which I'll try toshare in just a moment.
Focus on principles first.
Generally, you want to talk toa decision maker.
I think that is pretty obviousand a lot of outreach
specialists will go right to thedecision maker and skip all
(11:06):
that kind of ladder climbing upthe ladder.
There's different decisionmakers for different sizes of
companies and different services.
You might provide, for example,a new startup.
You can get a hold of the ownerand founder 10 times out of 10.
However, a more establishede-commerce business, you might
want to go to the CMO or youknow the e-commerce manager,
depending on what you might wantto be selling to them Now to go
(11:30):
and determine, like, who shouldI go and email, who should I
reach out to if I want to sellwhat it is I'm selling and you
want to reverse engineer yourservice or product first, you
know right and it goes okay.
What problems do I solve?
Say, for example, let's takeyou know conversion rate, as you
(11:51):
know the core benefit of yoursolution or service we kind of
want to think about okay, well,who cares about conversion rate?
It's obviously the owner andthe founder, obviously, but it's
going to be a lot of people ina marketing and analytics roles
who are, you know, looking atthe website on a day to day
basis, driving traffic to thewebsite, and those in many
(12:14):
different businesses are greatdecision makers to reach out to,
you know if they're at acertain level Now.
Obviously never reach out tointerns or brand new people at a
company.
I think that always ends upbeing a waste of time.
But you know we can determine.
You know roles within companiesare typically referred to as
personas.
(12:35):
In the list building andprospecting realm building a
persona of who is likely to be adecision maker and likely to
receive your messaging in apositive manner.
You know that is relevant tothem.
Now, these prospecting toolshave been really amazing.
(12:56):
I'm sure you know, dave, youmight have heard of Apollo.
A lot of people who areentrepreneurs have tried
outreach to some degreethemselves.
They've heard of tools likeApollo, sales Navigator,
hunterio, snobio.
I mean there's millions oftools, and what makes list
building even better is toincorporate data into your
(13:20):
approach.
So say we've determined apersona.
The next thing you want to do issimilarly reverse engineer your
offer and infer who is a goodfit for your offer.
Let's take this thing as anexample CRO who might infer?
Beyond persona, who can weinfer would be a good fit to
(13:40):
sell CRO services to?
Well, that would be people withwebsite traffic.
That would be people that arerunning a lot of advertising on
Google and Meta.
Now, this can encapsulate alarge number of the e-commerce
world.
But you can set metrics.
Maybe you're like I need to see50,000 monthly website visitors
(14:02):
on a website to even offer myCRO to.
We can go and target thosepeople with like data metrics.
You know, look at companiesfirst, pull how much monthly
website visitors they have, andnow we can infer hey, this is a
pretty good fit to sell andmarket our CRO services to.
Now let's go find the personasat that company and really build
(14:22):
out a prospect list.
So at a high level, that's thegeneral approach.
Again, it like comes to tryingto think about the customer
first, right, like taking yourservice and kind of reverse
engineering it.
What's the result?
Who might care about this?
What are good company profiles?
That kind of would need or wantmy service, and then going out
and building those lists.
(14:43):
Now, I had mentioned that thereis a little cheat code and this
has been one of my back pocketsecret sauces for a long time
when it comes to finding data one-commerce businesses, as it's
a database that's always updatedEvery time a new Shopify store
is added, every time a newWooCommerce, bigcommerce, all
(15:04):
that stuff.
It's a database called storeleads.
So a lot of this information,or this brief example I shared
about.
Okay, well, let's look atwebsite visitors.
A tool like store leads canfind every single Shopify
website that's active past andbe able to pull that information
for you too, so that you canbetter infer who's a good fit
(15:26):
for your product.
So, in a nutshell, you kind ofgot to think about the customer
first, peel back the layers toyour offer, and I think I kept
saying it infer, infer, infer.
Um, you have to be a little bitloose in your prospecting,
because when it comes tooutreach, it is going to be a
volume game, and so, if you goand build a list, try to think
(15:50):
about the data as less of ablack and white metric and more
so, hey, how can we use thisdata to infer or make sure that
something is likely to happenfrom this subset of people?
And so that's really thegeneral approach that I
recommend to building any list.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
I like it.
I like it and thanks forincluding that.
What did you call it?
Speaker 3 (16:15):
The cheat code.
The cheat code.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
I love it.
Speaker 3 (16:18):
I love it.
That's a good one.
That's a good one.
You guys will thank me laterfor that.
It's quite powerful.
Speaker 2 (16:23):
Awesome, awesome, no, that's really really helpful
Now for someone who's runningemail marketing on their own
right now and is curious whetherthey're doing a good job at it.
You had mentioned it's a volumegame.
What types of analytics are youlooking at or what types of
metrics are you looking at tosay, okay, this is a successful
(16:44):
campaign, we had X amount ofopen rates, or what is your
criteria for a successfulcampaign?
Speaker 3 (16:52):
That is another amazing question and I'm going
to try to blow everyone's mindsreal quick, because there are a
lot of what we call vanitymetrics in the cold email world.
So everyone likes to look atopen, right, for some reason?
Um, I'll tell you straight upright now it's a bullshit metric
.
Do not use it and do not lookat it to measure the success of
(17:15):
any campaign.
Now you're like oh well, parent, how can I do that?
It's going to let me know howdeliverable my emails are, cause
I'll know how many people areopening them.
No, it's a vanity metric.
The way open tracking is loggedis with what are called pixels
in the emails.
Pixels can be automaticallyfired if they go to certain
email servers.
They can be fired multipletimes.
(17:36):
If someone opens an email fromtheir iPhone and then their
computer later on, and you'llfind it's just an inflated
vanity metric number.
Vanity metric number Along withthat.
If people are savvy in the coldemail world, they'll know that
an email is hyper deliverable ifit's a raw HTML email.
Now, that sounds like a wholebunch of mungo jungle.
(17:57):
What the hell does that mean?
It means that there are nolinks, there are no images and
there are no pixels in my emails.
No embedded files.
It is a raw text email.
So by including open tracking,not only are we getting vanity
metrics, but we're alsodouble-edged sword, hurting our
deliverability by includingpixels and not sending raw text
(18:21):
emails out.
So we talk about KPIs.
I want everyone to never lookat open rate again.
Seriously, I know it can betempting, but we can infer from
other data pieces how trulydeliverable our emails are.
Now, that's probably the worstmetric.
So let me talk about, like,some of the best metrics that
(18:41):
you want to look at.
Number one is going to be whatis we call EPL, or email per
lead.
Better determined, betterdescribed as how many emails do
I need to send to generate apositive response?
Um, you'll find in many coldemail softwares this is not
(19:03):
often tracked.
Um, it's kind of a statisticwe've almost made up ourself.
It doesn't take a genius todetermine.
That's a very important metric,but that's really what you want
to look at how many emails do Ineed to send that generate a
positive response?
So that is our favorite metricto determine hey, is my
(19:23):
messaging pretty good?
Are we doing all right?
Another really important KPI tolook at is reply rate.
Now replies, you're going toget a whole bunch of replies.
If you start sending outcampaigns, you're going to get
stuff like oh, this soundsamazing, let's hop on a call.
You're going to get emails thatsay dude, please effing stop
(19:47):
emailing me, take me off yourlist, unsubscribe.
But reply rate is a really goodway to determine deliverability
.
Right, when you think aboutmanaging a cold email campaign,
you want to make sure you'regetting responses, obviously,
and you also want to keep an eyeon deliverability.
So if open rate is a vanitymetric that hurts our
(20:09):
deliverability in the end wewant to use just overall reply
rate as a good baseline numberto hey, am I getting enough
responses?
To guess and be like, hey, okay, my deliverability is not too
bad.
So if I could only look at twopieces of data at any cold email
(20:30):
campaign to determine, hey,things are going pretty good or
they're going pretty bad, Iwould look at EPL and I would
look at reply rate.
So and I would absolutely never, ever even consider thinking
about open rate.
Speaker 2 (20:45):
I like it.
I like it and that I whatyou're saying about the open
rate.
That does make sense, and Iwill also share with you that I
have been holding open rate inpretty high regard over the last
couple of years, and what youjust said changes that.
And so one point I want to askyou about, one point I want to
(21:05):
ask you about so you'rementioning that the best form of
email is a blank text, htmlformatted file.
I would assume most of thesehave a call to action where
they're booking a sales call,and so how do you navigate that?
Speaker 3 (21:25):
Yeah, so that talks about formula of you know
copywriting.
So like, copywriting is the artand the science of putting
together messaging that elicitsa response right in a sales
scenario and in a businessscenario.
So CTA is a big part of that.
(21:46):
In fact, if I could simplifythe copywriting formula down to
three pieces, it looks like thisit is your hook, it is your
offer statement and it is a CTA.
Exist in every single copy.
And you got to, you got to takethat seriously.
(22:09):
You got to understand, okay,how can I hook someone, how can
I communicate my offer and howcan I get an action out of them.
So you asked about CTA.
That's arguably the mostimportant thing.
There's been many cases whereyou can have a very good
messaging, very good subjectline, hyper deliverability, but
you ask the wrong question orimplicit the wrong action at the
(22:31):
end of the email and you'regonna get results for crud.
So I'll tell you guys right nowwhat I think is like a big
misconception and cold email andoutreach, and I've seen this a
ton and I kind of wanna have thechance right now to kill it and
stop anyone in the futureforever doing this.
It is the difference between aninterest-based CTA and a
(22:54):
time-based CTA.
So I'll talk first about atime-based CTA and what that
really means.
And that's if, at the end of anemail, I asked you hey, do you
have 15 minutes next week tochat about this?
Or hey, what's your schedulelooking like next week so we can
get on a call and talk.
It's a time-based CTA becauseyou're asking someone to tell
(23:17):
you their availability, you'reasking someone to kind of shed
light on what their time lookslike.
The other type of CTA is calledan interest-based CTA.
This is more so kind ofgrounded in curiosity, grounded
in interest, and you kind ofwant to ask things like well,
hey, would you mind if I sentyou more information about this?
(23:40):
Or you know, how does somethinglike this sound to you?
Or would you be curious at allto hear more information about
this?
Millions of variations.
The point is one asks forinterest, the other asks for
time.
Now, there's a funny thingabout time You've probably heard
this before, david, but it'sfinite, it is not unlimited, and
(24:03):
turns out busy decision makers,busy entrepreneurs, owners they
don't have a lot of time.
So to ask for time is kind of afoolish thing to do.
What you want to do is ask forinterest, ask for curiosity
because, unlike time, interestis an infinite resource.
(24:25):
Right, you can create that ondemand.
If you have strong messaging,if you have a strong hook and
strong offer, you can createsomething out of thin air.
So, as far as CTAs go, youalways want to kind of position
yourself in the realm of hey, Iwant to engineer interest,
(24:45):
engineer curiosity and act uponthat, versus trying to call
someone to action based on timeBecause, hey, we're doing cold
outreach to decision makers.
Guys, they're busy people.
So stop asking for time.
Stop asking for a call.
Not only is it finite, butyou're a stranger.
They don't want to talk to you.
I'm sorry.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
I like it.
That is really.
I really like that point, and,as you were saying it, I was
thinking of some emails that Ihave read recently that have had
that call to action on hey, doyou have time?
And as someone who's very, verybusy, my default answer is
typically Typically no.
And so, as you phrase it thatway, that really makes a ton of
(25:29):
sense.
And so I think there's kind oflike two camps of people here,
and there's going to be the DIYs, the people that want to go out
and execute this on their own,and then there's going to be
people who are interested inworking with a professional
organization such as you.
And so you know, to our DIYcrowd, what's a good platform to
(25:54):
do email marketing on.
You hear a lot about Klaviyokind of being the king.
At least from my perspective,that has been what I've seen.
Curious, what do you uh, findthere?
Speaker 3 (26:10):
yeah, that's.
That's a great question and Iwant to first um again clarify
for for people, if you areconfused about what email
marketing software you shoulduse, determine if you want to
email consumers or if you wantto email b2b consumers.
Yeah, I've also heard clavio ispretty good, uh, but again,
(26:30):
you're not selling services tobusiness professionals using
Klaviyo.
You guys have probably heard ofMailchimp, sendinblue.
I know a lot of CRMs have theirown emailing capabilities, like
HubSpot, pipedrive, gohighlevelhas its own, even, even.
But if you do want to generateB2B leads for your business with
(26:54):
email marketing as the engine,there is no other answer than
instantly.
Okay, they're not paying me forthis, they're not paying me for
any shout out, trust me, I'veused all the softwares and
instantly is very good for a fewreasons.
Number one it's it'sspecialized for cold outreach.
Right, there are a lot ofnuances.
(27:14):
If you want to, you know, senda B2B professionals and sell
your services via email.
Right, you got to havedeliverability on point.
You have to have automation atscale.
You have to manage many, manyinboxes, because there are some
delicate tricks to delivering ata high rate, and I can share
those in just a little bit.
(27:34):
And instantly is really like theall-in-one software that is
absolutely killing it.
Not only that, but if you lookat the email marketing software
space, and especially in coldemail software space, instantly
has all the funding behind it.
You know, almost like 200% more, 300% more than its next best
(27:57):
competitor, and you know youwant to.
In my opinion, if you're usingsoftware, position yourself
behind the one that really hasthe thought leaders, that has
the capital behind it, becauseas technology becomes
exponentially, exponentially,more and more, you know creative
and fast, et cetera, et cetera.
(28:18):
You need to position yourselfwith a software that is also
growing especially fast and youknow growing with AI, growing
with these other.
You know technologies andsoftwares and instantly is just.
It's blown my socks off.
If you want to do cold emailand do it yourself, there is no
(28:39):
other answer.
Don't even waste your timelooking.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
You had mentioned a couple tactics about
deliverability and navigatingthat space, so what does that
look like?
Speaker 3 (28:53):
Yeah, I think, and it can get complicated.
So, guys, so buckle up here fora second.
Deliverability really stemsfrom volume.
First and foremost.
We talk about what is a highdeliverable email engine, and
the only kind of comparison Ican make it is we want to do a
(29:13):
little bit from many differentplaces.
We want to have one accountworking for us very tiny and do
a ton of accounts.
So it's we call that scalinghorizontally, not vertically.
So in cold email, you obviouslyhave an email that you send from
.
One email should not exceed 10or 15 emails a day, I think,
(29:52):
like the biggest deliverabilityfunk or flock flump, whatever
that people do is, they'll go byand set up one email account
and they'll send thousands orhundreds of emails from that one
email account.
And that is one of the worstways to have high deliverability
, because these ESPs so thatwould be your Google, your Yahoo
, your Outlook.
The number one metric they lookat to determine if you are
abusing your email for spampurposes is your volume.
So do not get one email accountand send all your volume from
(30:15):
it.
I want you to get an army ofemail accounts and they're all
going to do a little bit right,that is in the most simple way I
can explain it.
The best way to increase yourdeliverability is have an army
of email accounts all marchingone foot per day.
We do not want to have one guyrun, run, running the marathon
on a day-to-day basis.
(30:35):
It'll absolutely crush and burnyour reputation with those
email providers.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
Okay, very nice, very nice.
And you had said that caps outat around 15 a day is what you
want.
Speaker 3 (30:50):
To limit that to, yeah, so you know different
people have differentmethodologies.
You know some people like topush it up to 25.
Some people keep it low as fiveper day.
I think there's a bigconversation to be had about
cost, right.
So the more emails you have,the more expensive it is.
(31:16):
If you've messed with cold emailbefore, it's an absolute pain
to have a whole bunch of burnsbecause downtime it takes about
four weeks to get an email thatwas burned once to get its
replacement up and firing again.
So there's the conservativekind of group of people who's
like, hey, I want to like,basically get a whole bunch of
(31:37):
emails, never worry about theirdeliverability, ever again, and,
you know, not push their volumethreshold very high.
That is a camp I actually tendto be in myself, because it is a
vein to replace domains and youknow, every time you replace a
domain you have to buy a newdomain.
Like you know, it just becomesa headache and it's costly if
(31:57):
you're dealing with a lot ofburns.
Now there are people who like,hey, it does not matter to me
the cost of email domainsbecause it's marginal compared
to the profit I'm going to getfrom a new customer.
So in that case they're like Iwant to buy a crap ton of
domains and I want to push themuntil they burn, and when they
burn we're just going to buymore.
(32:18):
That's a fine school of thoughttoo.
There's literally no problemwith that, except the just
complications and work of havingto replace stuff and
understanding that your costsare a little more erratic.
And yeah, that can be enough ofa turnoff for a business owner.
There are the more conservative, cost-minded, and then there's
(32:39):
the upsetting fire ablaze.
Let's just burn it all and pushit to tell it's dead and we'll
just get new ones after that.
Now, like I said, that is alittle bit riskier and it's a
fine strategy.
It's not necessarily one Irecommend, because there's one
ever moving piece of motion inthe background and that is
(33:01):
cybersecurity.
That is, you know, securityprotocols, etc, etc.
And who knows how smart thisstuff is going to get in the
long run?
Who knows if you know, in fiveyears you know you buy a new
domain and for an entire yearyou have to warm it up, or you
know that lead time from fourweeks becomes up to a year?
(33:23):
Who knows what it's going tolook like in the future?
We do know that over the lasttwo years that volume threshold
point has been rapidlydecreasing.
That over the last two yearsthat volume threshold point has
been rapidly decreasing.
When I first started cold emailfour, maybe five years ago, you
could send 50 emails a day five, zero, from every single email
account.
(33:43):
The recommended number I justsaid a couple minutes ago was 15
.
That's like a massive decrease.
So over time, you know, wedon't know how strict those
rules are going to get.
There's another factor that theESPs email service providers use
to determine hey, this guy'sgood, he passes all the green
flags like, let him send emailsas he wishes, and that is age
(34:05):
age of a domain, age of an email.
For example, if I created a newcold email account today, it's
got an age of one day years old.
It's an infant, it's a baby.
If I had one that's been aroundfor two years, that's a mature,
that's someone we can trust,that's someone with a reputation
with us.
And so I think if you're on themore riskier side, just know
(34:28):
that although now it's not toopunishing, we don't know how
punishing it'll become in thefuture if you're constantly
trying to use infant domains tosend and really pushing that
threshold as far as you can go.
So those are the two schools ofthought when it comes to
general volume per email account.
I'm not going to recommend oneor the other.
(34:49):
I just happen to be in theconservative camp.
Speaker 2 (34:51):
Very nice, very nice, and I've never heard it
explained that way, but thatmakes a lot of sense.
That makes a lot of sense and Ithink this is one of the
reasons why you would want towork with a professional in the
industry is, as things changefrom 50 to 25 to who knows what
in the future, I think stayingahead of that makes a lot of
sense.
So, perrin, before we get inthe fire round, I would like to
(35:14):
talk to you about the type ofclients that you work with and
what's your sweet spot in termsmotivated business owners.
Speaker 3 (35:36):
In a weird way like, yes, I'll talk about industry in
a moment, but for me it's anattitude and understanding where
, hey, let's strip back your egoand let's learn how to go to
market together.
You know, I think it's reallytough to do sales outreach and a
lot of strategy.
Like a lot of people forget howmuch strategy it takes to come
(35:56):
up with a good outreach campaignIf they are already lock solid
in their beliefs and won't letus challenge that at all.
That's number one.
Number two is a lot of ourclients actually do work with
e-commerce businesses.
So, you know, we do.
Probably 70 to 80 percent of allof our work is generating
(36:19):
business leads in e-commerce.
So this is typically serviceproviders, a slew of marketers.
This is SaaS companies,cybersecurity companies, and it
is people who are trying to geta hold of e-commerce businesses.
Like, hey, I work with a lot ofcoffee companies, I want to
(36:40):
help more coffee companies makeamazing content and those are
the types of people that we goout and help.
Or performance marketers or etcetera, et cetera.
So that's the realm we're inwhen we talk more about like,
what is someone who's like justcompletely primed to go
ballistic on outreach and reallyfill up their calendars.
(37:02):
We'd love to see you know proofof success.
One thing I believe strongly inbusiness is case studies.
It's proof that you are who yousay you are and it's so, so
powerful to tell a stranger anamazing offer and be like, oh
yeah, and we can back it upbecause we did it for someone
(37:23):
who's just like you before.
So I love seeing case studiesas well.
So, in a nutshell, you knowsomeone who is open to
shattering their beliefs andtheir go to mark, current go to
market strategy, someone who hascase studies and someone
selling to e-commerce.
That's really kind of our sweetspot you.
Speaker 2 (37:52):
Before we wrap up, I would like to get into the fire
round.
This is four questions we askevery guest at the end of the
show.
Speaker 3 (37:56):
Are you ready?
Let's do it all, right?
No deal, deal, here we go.
What's your case?
Speaker 2 (37:58):
number 14, that's right.
What's your favorite book?
Speaker 3 (38:02):
favorite book, I'm going to say ender's game it is.
I'm a huge sci-fi fantasy guyand my grandfather I remember
being young he's like you haveto read this book and it's all
about strategy and manipulationand war tactics, but in an alien
(38:23):
and sci-fi realm, and blew mysocks off when I read it.
Highly recommend if you're intosci-fi.
Blew my socks off when I readit.
Highly recommend if you're intosci-fi.
Speaker 2 (38:31):
Very nice.
I read that one back in highschool and really, really
enjoyed it.
I have to break that back outagain.
Speaker 3 (38:40):
So next question what are your hobbies?
Hobbies so I come from a musicbackground and a sports
background.
Growing up I actually before Igot into all the nerdy stuff and
psychology and sales I'm in now.
I used to be like a musicproducer and a sound engineer.
(39:01):
So when I do have free time Ilove to try to get back into
some tracks and really peel backthe science behind what makes
music sound good.
I think if I could center it all, I'm a nerd.
I'll happily say that I'm anerd.
Anything I want to do, I try tostudy it pretty deeply and
that's something that I love.
I also love to.
You know, the older I get, theharder it is, but I love to stay
(39:22):
active.
Playing basketball was alwaysbeen a love of mine and I'll
take any chance I can get to getout there.
I happen to, you know, go to agym that Michael Jordan used to
train on, and so it's really funto get out there.
You kind of feel I don't knowlike you're.
You could be.
You could be Michael Jordan ifyou just spent enough hours here
(39:44):
, right?
So as far as hobbies go, thoselike the nerdy stuff rules my
life and gives me a lot of joy,and you know I love to be out
and about, try new food, travel,all this stuff.
But if I can be like whatbrings me joy, it's like
learning, being a nerd andgetting into.
You know those things.
Speaker 2 (40:03):
Cool, Cool.
Very nice Number three.
What is one thing you do notmiss about working for the man?
Speaker 3 (40:11):
That is.
I really do not miss I reallytwo things.
Number one is I always feltthere was a competition, uh, who
could work longer?
I'm a results oriented, I'mlike results first.
I really believe in work smartversus working long, and it
(40:33):
really felt like a competitionto me.
And you know, I think workshould be enjoyable.
I think that's why anyone whostarts their own business, kind
of like, has this belief where,like hey I want to create the
life for myself, I want to chasemy dreams, I want to, you know,
be who I want to be and timebeing finite kind of backing on
that old conversation, you know,if the work and the man kind of
(40:54):
constricts, that time it'sreally frustrating and that was
something that I desperately,desperately wanted to get out of
.
So, yeah, that's probably thenumber one thing and I'll hang
my head on that that checks out,that checks out.
Speaker 2 (41:14):
I that checks out, that checks out.
Um and last question what doyou think sets apart successful
entrepreneurs from those whogive up, fail or never get
started?
Speaker 3 (41:20):
Yeah, I think.
Um, well, number one, like you,just have to be okay with
failure and embarrassment.
Um, it's, it's reallypersistent.
I think if you really look atall the entrepreneurs, there are
obviously geniuses, but a lotof people are really, first and
foremost, they believe inthemselves and they're
persistent.
Um, failure I touched on it sobriefly when we first started
(41:45):
this conversation.
You have to be okay withfailure.
You have to be able to learnfrom your mistakes and you're
going to be so good.
Just believe it's really beliefin who you are.
Don't be afraid to fail, don'tbe afraid to be embarrassed.
Talk about that stuff.
I think a lot of people hesitateto act.
(42:05):
They wait for that perfect shot.
In fact, I saw an animation awhile ago talking about this.
Imagine there's moving shieldsin front of your face and there
are two people moving shields infront of your face and on the
other side is a target.
On the other side is you with abow and an arrow and there's
someone next to you and one ofthe two archers is waiting for
the perfect moment when theshield is out of the way.
(42:27):
The other archer is constantlyfiring, he's hitting the shield,
he's missing the target, he'sdoing all this stuff and get
guess who was the first one tohit the target, the one who kept
trying and failing over andover again.
Um, so, you know, I, I thinkthat's that's really.
It is like be ready to be, beready to fail, be okay with
(42:48):
taking on debt, be okay withembarrassment, be okay with
sacrificing a social life,because life is what you make it
.
You get out what you put in, soput in effort.
Speaker 2 (42:59):
Outstanding.
Well, Perrin, this has been areally good interview.
If people are interested ingetting in touch with you,
what's the best way?
Speaker 3 (43:07):
The best way to get in touch is to obviously send me
a cold email.
I'm kidding you can head overto revascensionio, that is
R-E-V-A-C-C-E-N-T-I-O.
From there we have, you know,just my personal calendar
integrated onto our website andthat's really the best way to
(43:28):
come and speak with me.
We personally don't send toomuch website traffic over.
We really have all of ourtraffic come from email directly
kind of hilarious.
But you know that's a greatplace to get a hold of me and
just have a chat so I can hear alittle bit more about your
business and see, hey, maybe youshould use cold email.
Speaker 2 (43:47):
There we go, all right.
Well, perrin, this has been anoutstanding podcast and looking
forward to staying in touch.
Speaker 3 (43:54):
Yeah, absolutely Dave .
I appreciate the time today.
Welcome everyone to the Firing the man podcast, a
show for anyone who wants to betheir own boss.
If you sit in a cubicle everyday and know you are capable of
more, then join us.
This show will help you build abusiness and grow your passive
income streams in just a fewshort hours per day.
And now your hosts, serialentrepreneurs David Shomer and
(00:22):
Ken Wilson.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Welcome to Firing the man, the podcast for
entrepreneurs, business builderswho are ready to grow beyond
the hustle and step intoownership that truly scales.
I'm your host, david Shomer,and today's guest is someone
who's built systems andstrategies to help businesses
elevate fast.
Meet Perrin Monker, principalat RevAscensionio, a leading
(00:48):
growth agency that drivesmeasurable revenue through
tech-enabled frameworks, smartsales funnels and powerful
automation.
With a background in salesstrategy, process systems, data
analytics and CRM tools, perrinis passionate about turning good
businesses into growth machines.
He spent years fine-tuningoutreach strategies, mastering
(01:11):
cold messaging and buildingstreamlined pipelines that don't
just operate, they excel,bringing a blend of technology,
psychology and scalable systems.
Perrin helps ambitiousentrepreneurs and e-commerce
operators break free from themanual grind and architect
growth.
Today, we'll dive into how hecrafts elite, offers leverages,
(01:35):
automation to scale clientgrowth and builds repeatable
systems that free operators fromthe day-to-day Get ready.
This episode will challenge howyou think about business
development and show you justhow scalable your hustle can
become.
Perrin, welcome to the show.
Speaker 3 (01:55):
It's good to be here.
Man.
Appreciate you for having me.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
Absolutely, absolutely.
So to start things off, can youshare with our audience a
little bit about your backgroundand path in the
entrepreneurship world?
Speaker 3 (02:06):
Yeah, it starts way back when.
So I've been blessed.
My biggest role model in lifeis my father.
He's been an entrepreneur hisentire life.
So growing up I've seen, youknow, that entrepreneurial
spirit and kind of businesshustle.
So from a young age it was kindof ingrained in me.
But like many people, I fellinto the path of, you know,
(02:28):
going to college doing thatcorporate sort of path quickly.
It was so, so unhappy andthroughout the entire process
tried efforts to break away fromthat sort of cage that many of
us probably feel like we're inand started with dropshipping.
(02:48):
Actually that was the firstsort of business that I tried to
launch, not the best venture,but I believe failures you learn
a ton from.
Ended up in the crypto spacefor a little while.
Another failed venture, butagain learned so, so much and
eventually found myself at astartup company which focuses on
go-to-market strategies, leadgeneration and building sales
(03:11):
funnels for other B2B businesses.
After about a year of timethere really just like so
interested in the psychologybehind what makes a person act
or move in a B2B business sense,and decided to kind of deploy
those strategies and my own kindof twist and approach to it and
to what we do now, which is,you know, go-to-market
(03:34):
strategies, lead generation and,like sales funnel, execution
for a variety of different B2Bbusinesses.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
Very nice, very nice, and, would you say, your sweet
spot is email marketing.
Speaker 3 (03:46):
Yeah, email marketing and, more specifically, the
cold email approach.
You know email marketingencompasses consumer messaging,
b2b messaging.
We definitely focus on that B2Bside, cold marketing, cold
email marketing in the B2B realmside.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
cold marketing, cold email marketing in the B2B realm
Okay, very nice.
So just for our listeners, coldemail is going to be somebody
who's never heard from youbefore and who needs an
introduction to the topic andwhat's being discussed.
Is that a fair representation?
Speaker 3 (04:20):
That is very fair, and it is.
You know, there's many otherchannels that people are very
familiar with.
And really old school someoneknocking on your door, you know,
trying to hey, like your yard'sovergrown.
You didn't ask them to be there, but they tried to target you
because you had a problem youryard's overgrown.
At the end of the day, we wantto be helpful.
I think cold has a negativeconnotation or almost a stigma
(04:45):
to it, but yeah, you're totallyright, they don't know who you
are.
They might be aware they have aproblem, but we determine a
person, a stranger, who we canhelp, and we want to reach out
and let them know that, hey, wecan help you.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
Very nice, very nice.
And I actually met you througha mutual friend and client of
yours who, when I talked to him,he said, yeah, I've been
working with Perrin for a whileand you've been doing an awesome
job on getting their calendarsbooked with sales calls, and so
I'm curious what's the secretsauce that makes your outreach
(05:20):
work well?
Speaker 3 (05:22):
That's a really good question.
Work well.
That's a really good question.
I really believe, not in allthe bells and whistles, but a
really good foundation to anysort of marketing campaign.
So when I first started doingthis for all types of businesses
, it's really easy to get lostin the sauce of oh, I need the
coolest automation, the coolesttech, the fastest software.
(05:44):
Oh, I need the coolestautomation, the coolest tech,
the fastest software.
And we really peeled back thelayers.
I have over thousands ofdifferent implementations and
iterations of what makes a goodcold messaging and I believe it
is the fundamental offer thatyou go to market with.
For example, I have a lot ofpeople who are part know, part
(06:05):
of my client base, my partnerbase, and they sell advertising
services.
Right, and they take a product,they create ads for it and
they're like hey, I'm anadvertiser for, you know,
e-commerce products.
That's great, but it's not agood offer and what I mean by
that is it doesn't communicate abusiness outcome, and what I
mean by that is it doesn'tcommunicate a business outcome.
It doesn't communicate atransformation.
(06:28):
All you're doing is tellingsomeone who you are and what you
do, and we want to flip theframework and really position
your prospect or your potentialclient as the center of
everything and build an offerthat screams a business outcome
that they care about.
So you're no longer anadvertiser hey, I do advertising
(06:50):
for people like you.
You are.
I deliver this result for you.
So that's really been theframework.
We try to step back and peelback.
The secret sauce is at the verybeginning the strategy you
build, the offer you come upwith and the core principle that
you go to market with.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
Okay, okay, that makes a ton of sense and to me
that really speaks a lot to themessaging side of things, and
let's stay in that lane for alittle bit on the messaging side
of things.
Let's stay in that lane for alittle bit on on the messaging
side of things.
What are the the mortal sins ofof email marketing?
Are there?
What are?
What do we want to definitelyavoid for those people
implementing this in theirbusiness?
Speaker 3 (07:35):
Yeah, that's a really good, good question and to try
to like, keep it like groundedin the core offer like what are
the mortal sins?
Number one it's the belief thatyou are doing something that no
one else is doing.
I have a lot of people who kindof fail to recognize that there
is competition and it's almosttoo close-minded of an approach
(08:01):
when it comes to strategy.
I think there's a ton ofbenefits to looking at your
competitors, seeing how otherpeople position themselves and
really get an idea for how manyother sharks are in the water,
right.
So a mortal sin is to avoidlooking at your competitors and
almost approach things with alittle bit of an ego.
We want to be humble when wecome up with, you know, go to
(08:22):
market strategies, and that isone of the most important things
to do is look at thecompetition, see what other
sharks are in the water, youknow.
Another one is to, you know,fail to like understand your
customer.
I think a lot of ambitiousbusiness owners I talk to
(08:43):
believe that they already knowwhat their customer wants.
Things change all the time.
Market trends, new problems,new technologies come out,
especially in the e-commercespace.
I mean, you know, meta ads arealways changing Google ads.
Now we have AI search engine,yada, yada yada.
What your customer wantschanges over time and you know,
(09:04):
I always ask my partners to youknow, kind of shatter their
current belief and let's explorewhat your customer wants
together from step one.
So those are the two biggestthings and it's kind of funny,
it all goes back to not thinkingthat you know it all, stripping
back the belief that, hey, youare the smartest person in the
room and let's put your customerfirst.
(09:26):
Let's understand the world theylive in.
Let's understand the articles,the content they absorb.
Let's understand what peopleare saying on places like G2,
what kind of reviews they'releaving, what kind of YouTube
content's being posted.
Let's understand the world theylive in to come up with the
message that they care about.
Let's also center around theother messages that they're
(09:48):
getting, with getting bombardedwith on a daily basis.
So let's look at thecompetitors and let's live in
your customers world.
So the biggest sin is to not dothat right and to build it from
a perspective of.
This is what I have and what Ithink is cool about our current
product.
We want to completely runaround that.
Let's go to where your customeris and let's live and breathe
(10:10):
their world for a little bit.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
Very nice and to me that's a really, really good
answer.
On the messaging side of thingsand I'm glad that you pointed
out those mortal sins Now, whenI think about this, there's kind
of two components right.
There's the messaging and thenthere's the who.
Who are we sending this to, andwhat are some cold email
(10:36):
strategies in terms ofgenerating lists or finding a
relevant audience to send youroffer to?
Speaker 3 (10:44):
Yeah, that's a really good point and I have a total
cheat code which I'll try toshare in just a moment.
Focus on principles first.
Generally, you want to talk toa decision maker.
I think that is pretty obviousand a lot of outreach
specialists will go right to thedecision maker and skip all
(11:06):
that kind of ladder climbing upthe ladder.
There's different decisionmakers for different sizes of
companies and different services.
You might provide, for example,a new startup.
You can get a hold of the ownerand founder 10 times out of 10.
However, a more establishede-commerce business, you might
want to go to the CMO or youknow the e-commerce manager,
depending on what you might wantto be selling to them Now to go
(11:30):
and determine, like, who shouldI go and email, who should I
reach out to if I want to sellwhat it is I'm selling and you
want to reverse engineer yourservice or product first, you
know right and it goes okay.
What problems do I solve?
Say, for example, let's takeyou know conversion rate, as you
(11:51):
know the core benefit of yoursolution or service we kind of
want to think about okay, well,who cares about conversion rate?
It's obviously the owner andthe founder, obviously, but it's
going to be a lot of people ina marketing and analytics roles
who are, you know, looking atthe website on a day to day
basis, driving traffic to thewebsite, and those in many
(12:14):
different businesses are greatdecision makers to reach out to,
you know if they're at acertain level Now.
Obviously never reach out tointerns or brand new people at a
company.
I think that always ends upbeing a waste of time.
But you know we can determine.
You know roles within companiesare typically referred to as
personas.
(12:35):
In the list building andprospecting realm building a
persona of who is likely to be adecision maker and likely to
receive your messaging in apositive manner.
You know that is relevant tothem.
Now, these prospecting toolshave been really amazing.
(12:56):
I'm sure you know, dave, youmight have heard of Apollo.
A lot of people who areentrepreneurs have tried
outreach to some degreethemselves.
They've heard of tools likeApollo, sales Navigator,
hunterio, snobio.
I mean there's millions oftools, and what makes list
building even better is toincorporate data into your
(13:20):
approach.
So say we've determined apersona.
The next thing you want to do issimilarly reverse engineer your
offer and infer who is a goodfit for your offer.
Let's take this thing as anexample CRO who might infer?
Beyond persona, who can weinfer would be a good fit to
(13:40):
sell CRO services to?
Well, that would be people withwebsite traffic.
That would be people that arerunning a lot of advertising on
Google and Meta.
Now, this can encapsulate alarge number of the e-commerce
world.
But you can set metrics.
Maybe you're like I need to see50,000 monthly website visitors
(14:02):
on a website to even offer myCRO to.
We can go and target thosepeople with like data metrics.
You know, look at companiesfirst, pull how much monthly
website visitors they have, andnow we can infer hey, this is a
pretty good fit to sell andmarket our CRO services to.
Now let's go find the personasat that company and really build
(14:22):
out a prospect list.
So at a high level, that's thegeneral approach.
Again, it like comes to tryingto think about the customer
first, right, like taking yourservice and kind of reverse
engineering it.
What's the result?
Who might care about this?
What are good company profiles?
That kind of would need or wantmy service, and then going out
and building those lists.
(14:43):
Now, I had mentioned that thereis a little cheat code and this
has been one of my back pocketsecret sauces for a long time
when it comes to finding data one-commerce businesses, as it's
a database that's always updatedEvery time a new Shopify store
is added, every time a newWooCommerce, bigcommerce, all
(15:04):
that stuff.
It's a database called storeleads.
So a lot of this information,or this brief example I shared
about.
Okay, well, let's look atwebsite visitors.
A tool like store leads canfind every single Shopify
website that's active past andbe able to pull that information
for you too, so that you canbetter infer who's a good fit
(15:26):
for your product.
So, in a nutshell, you kind ofgot to think about the customer
first, peel back the layers toyour offer, and I think I kept
saying it infer, infer, infer.
Um, you have to be a little bitloose in your prospecting,
because when it comes tooutreach, it is going to be a
volume game, and so, if you goand build a list, try to think
(15:50):
about the data as less of ablack and white metric and more
so, hey, how can we use thisdata to infer or make sure that
something is likely to happenfrom this subset of people?
And so that's really thegeneral approach that I
recommend to building any list.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
I like it.
I like it and thanks forincluding that.
What did you call it?
Speaker 3 (16:15):
The cheat code.
The cheat code.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
I love it.
Speaker 3 (16:18):
I love it.
That's a good one.
That's a good one.
You guys will thank me laterfor that.
It's quite powerful.
Speaker 2 (16:23):
Awesome, awesome, no, that's really really helpful
Now for someone who's runningemail marketing on their own
right now and is curious whetherthey're doing a good job at it.
You had mentioned it's a volumegame.
What types of analytics are youlooking at or what types of
metrics are you looking at tosay, okay, this is a successful
(16:44):
campaign, we had X amount ofopen rates, or what is your
criteria for a successfulcampaign?
Speaker 3 (16:52):
That is another amazing question and I'm going
to try to blow everyone's mindsreal quick, because there are a
lot of what we call vanitymetrics in the cold email world.
So everyone likes to look atopen, right, for some reason?
Um, I'll tell you straight upright now it's a bullshit metric
.
Do not use it and do not lookat it to measure the success of
(17:15):
any campaign.
Now you're like oh well, parent, how can I do that?
It's going to let me know howdeliverable my emails are, cause
I'll know how many people areopening them.
No, it's a vanity metric.
The way open tracking is loggedis with what are called pixels
in the emails.
Pixels can be automaticallyfired if they go to certain
email servers.
They can be fired multipletimes.
(17:36):
If someone opens an email fromtheir iPhone and then their
computer later on, and you'llfind it's just an inflated
vanity metric number.
Vanity metric number Along withthat.
If people are savvy in the coldemail world, they'll know that
an email is hyper deliverable ifit's a raw HTML email.
Now, that sounds like a wholebunch of mungo jungle.
(17:57):
What the hell does that mean?
It means that there are nolinks, there are no images and
there are no pixels in my emails.
No embedded files.
It is a raw text email.
So by including open tracking,not only are we getting vanity
metrics, but we're alsodouble-edged sword, hurting our
deliverability by includingpixels and not sending raw text
(18:21):
emails out.
So we talk about KPIs.
I want everyone to never lookat open rate again.
Seriously, I know it can betempting, but we can infer from
other data pieces how trulydeliverable our emails are.
Now, that's probably the worstmetric.
So let me talk about, like,some of the best metrics that
(18:41):
you want to look at.
Number one is going to be whatis we call EPL, or email per
lead.
Better determined, betterdescribed as how many emails do
I need to send to generate apositive response?
Um, you'll find in many coldemail softwares this is not
(19:03):
often tracked.
Um, it's kind of a statisticwe've almost made up ourself.
It doesn't take a genius todetermine.
That's a very important metric,but that's really what you want
to look at how many emails do Ineed to send that generate a
positive response?
So that is our favorite metricto determine hey, is my
(19:23):
messaging pretty good?
Are we doing all right?
Another really important KPI tolook at is reply rate.
Now replies, you're going toget a whole bunch of replies.
If you start sending outcampaigns, you're going to get
stuff like oh, this soundsamazing, let's hop on a call.
You're going to get emails thatsay dude, please effing stop
(19:47):
emailing me, take me off yourlist, unsubscribe.
But reply rate is a really goodway to determine deliverability
.
Right, when you think aboutmanaging a cold email campaign,
you want to make sure you'regetting responses, obviously,
and you also want to keep an eyeon deliverability.
So if open rate is a vanitymetric that hurts our
(20:09):
deliverability in the end wewant to use just overall reply
rate as a good baseline numberto hey, am I getting enough
responses?
To guess and be like, hey, okay, my deliverability is not too
bad.
So if I could only look at twopieces of data at any cold email
(20:30):
campaign to determine, hey,things are going pretty good or
they're going pretty bad, Iwould look at EPL and I would
look at reply rate.
So and I would absolutely never, ever even consider thinking
about open rate.
Speaker 2 (20:45):
I like it.
I like it and that I whatyou're saying about the open
rate.
That does make sense, and Iwill also share with you that I
have been holding open rate inpretty high regard over the last
couple of years, and what youjust said changes that.
And so one point I want to askyou about, one point I want to
(21:05):
ask you about so you'rementioning that the best form of
email is a blank text, htmlformatted file.
I would assume most of thesehave a call to action where
they're booking a sales call,and so how do you navigate that?
Speaker 3 (21:25):
Yeah, so that talks about formula of you know
copywriting.
So like, copywriting is the artand the science of putting
together messaging that elicitsa response right in a sales
scenario and in a businessscenario.
So CTA is a big part of that.
(21:46):
In fact, if I could simplifythe copywriting formula down to
three pieces, it looks like thisit is your hook, it is your
offer statement and it is a CTA.
Exist in every single copy.
And you got to, you got to takethat seriously.
(22:09):
You got to understand, okay,how can I hook someone, how can
I communicate my offer and howcan I get an action out of them.
So you asked about CTA.
That's arguably the mostimportant thing.
There's been many cases whereyou can have a very good
messaging, very good subjectline, hyper deliverability, but
you ask the wrong question orimplicit the wrong action at the
(22:31):
end of the email and you'regonna get results for crud.
So I'll tell you guys right nowwhat I think is like a big
misconception and cold email andoutreach, and I've seen this a
ton and I kind of wanna have thechance right now to kill it and
stop anyone in the futureforever doing this.
It is the difference between aninterest-based CTA and a
(22:54):
time-based CTA.
So I'll talk first about atime-based CTA and what that
really means.
And that's if, at the end of anemail, I asked you hey, do you
have 15 minutes next week tochat about this?
Or hey, what's your schedulelooking like next week so we can
get on a call and talk.
It's a time-based CTA becauseyou're asking someone to tell
(23:17):
you their availability, you'reasking someone to kind of shed
light on what their time lookslike.
The other type of CTA is calledan interest-based CTA.
This is more so kind ofgrounded in curiosity, grounded
in interest, and you kind ofwant to ask things like well,
hey, would you mind if I sentyou more information about this?
(23:40):
Or you know, how does somethinglike this sound to you?
Or would you be curious at allto hear more information about
this?
Millions of variations.
The point is one asks forinterest, the other asks for
time.
Now, there's a funny thingabout time You've probably heard
this before, david, but it'sfinite, it is not unlimited, and
(24:03):
turns out busy decision makers,busy entrepreneurs, owners they
don't have a lot of time.
So to ask for time is kind of afoolish thing to do.
What you want to do is ask forinterest, ask for curiosity
because, unlike time, interestis an infinite resource.
(24:25):
Right, you can create that ondemand.
If you have strong messaging,if you have a strong hook and
strong offer, you can createsomething out of thin air.
So, as far as CTAs go, youalways want to kind of position
yourself in the realm of hey, Iwant to engineer interest,
(24:45):
engineer curiosity and act uponthat, versus trying to call
someone to action based on timeBecause, hey, we're doing cold
outreach to decision makers.
Guys, they're busy people.
So stop asking for time.
Stop asking for a call.
Not only is it finite, butyou're a stranger.
They don't want to talk to you.
I'm sorry.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
I like it.
That is really.
I really like that point, and,as you were saying it, I was
thinking of some emails that Ihave read recently that have had
that call to action on hey, doyou have time?
And as someone who's very, verybusy, my default answer is
typically Typically no.
And so, as you phrase it thatway, that really makes a ton of
(25:29):
sense.
And so I think there's kind oflike two camps of people here,
and there's going to be the DIYs, the people that want to go out
and execute this on their own,and then there's going to be
people who are interested inworking with a professional
organization such as you.
And so you know, to our DIYcrowd, what's a good platform to
(25:54):
do email marketing on.
You hear a lot about Klaviyokind of being the king.
At least from my perspective,that has been what I've seen.
Curious, what do you uh, findthere?
Speaker 3 (26:10):
yeah, that's.
That's a great question and Iwant to first um again clarify
for for people, if you areconfused about what email
marketing software you shoulduse, determine if you want to
email consumers or if you wantto email b2b consumers.
Yeah, I've also heard clavio ispretty good, uh, but again,
(26:30):
you're not selling services tobusiness professionals using
Klaviyo.
You guys have probably heard ofMailchimp, sendinblue.
I know a lot of CRMs have theirown emailing capabilities, like
HubSpot, pipedrive, gohighlevelhas its own, even, even.
But if you do want to generateB2B leads for your business with
(26:54):
email marketing as the engine,there is no other answer than
instantly.
Okay, they're not paying me forthis, they're not paying me for
any shout out, trust me, I'veused all the softwares and
instantly is very good for a fewreasons.
Number one it's it'sspecialized for cold outreach.
Right, there are a lot ofnuances.
(27:14):
If you want to, you know, senda B2B professionals and sell
your services via email.
Right, you got to havedeliverability on point.
You have to have automation atscale.
You have to manage many, manyinboxes, because there are some
delicate tricks to delivering ata high rate, and I can share
those in just a little bit.
(27:34):
And instantly is really like theall-in-one software that is
absolutely killing it.
Not only that, but if you lookat the email marketing software
space, and especially in coldemail software space, instantly
has all the funding behind it.
You know, almost like 200% more, 300% more than its next best
(27:57):
competitor, and you know youwant to.
In my opinion, if you're usingsoftware, position yourself
behind the one that really hasthe thought leaders, that has
the capital behind it, becauseas technology becomes
exponentially, exponentially,more and more, you know creative
and fast, et cetera, et cetera.
(28:18):
You need to position yourselfwith a software that is also
growing especially fast and youknow growing with AI, growing
with these other.
You know technologies andsoftwares and instantly is just.
It's blown my socks off.
If you want to do cold emailand do it yourself, there is no
(28:39):
other answer.
Don't even waste your timelooking.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
You had mentioned a couple tactics about
deliverability and navigatingthat space, so what does that
look like?
Speaker 3 (28:53):
Yeah, I think, and it can get complicated.
So, guys, so buckle up here fora second.
Deliverability really stemsfrom volume.
First and foremost.
We talk about what is a highdeliverable email engine, and
the only kind of comparison Ican make it is we want to do a
(29:13):
little bit from many differentplaces.
We want to have one accountworking for us very tiny and do
a ton of accounts.
So it's we call that scalinghorizontally, not vertically.
So in cold email, you obviouslyhave an email that you send from
.
One email should not exceed 10or 15 emails a day, I think,
(29:52):
like the biggest deliverabilityfunk or flock flump, whatever
that people do is, they'll go byand set up one email account
and they'll send thousands orhundreds of emails from that one
email account.
And that is one of the worstways to have high deliverability
, because these ESPs so thatwould be your Google, your Yahoo
, your Outlook.
The number one metric they lookat to determine if you are
abusing your email for spampurposes is your volume.
So do not get one email accountand send all your volume from
(30:15):
it.
I want you to get an army ofemail accounts and they're all
going to do a little bit right,that is in the most simple way I
can explain it.
The best way to increase yourdeliverability is have an army
of email accounts all marchingone foot per day.
We do not want to have one guyrun, run, running the marathon
on a day-to-day basis.
(30:35):
It'll absolutely crush and burnyour reputation with those
email providers.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
Okay, very nice, very nice.
And you had said that caps outat around 15 a day is what you
want.
Speaker 3 (30:50):
To limit that to, yeah, so you know different
people have differentmethodologies.
You know some people like topush it up to 25.
Some people keep it low as fiveper day.
I think there's a bigconversation to be had about
cost, right.
So the more emails you have,the more expensive it is.
(31:16):
If you've messed with cold emailbefore, it's an absolute pain
to have a whole bunch of burnsbecause downtime it takes about
four weeks to get an email thatwas burned once to get its
replacement up and firing again.
So there's the conservativekind of group of people who's
like, hey, I want to like,basically get a whole bunch of
(31:37):
emails, never worry about theirdeliverability, ever again, and,
you know, not push their volumethreshold very high.
That is a camp I actually tendto be in myself, because it is a
vein to replace domains and youknow, every time you replace a
domain you have to buy a newdomain.
Like you know, it just becomesa headache and it's costly if
(31:57):
you're dealing with a lot ofburns.
Now there are people who like,hey, it does not matter to me
the cost of email domainsbecause it's marginal compared
to the profit I'm going to getfrom a new customer.
So in that case they're like Iwant to buy a crap ton of
domains and I want to push themuntil they burn, and when they
burn we're just going to buymore.
(32:18):
That's a fine school of thoughttoo.
There's literally no problemwith that, except the just
complications and work of havingto replace stuff and
understanding that your costsare a little more erratic.
And yeah, that can be enough ofa turnoff for a business owner.
There are the more conservative, cost-minded, and then there's
(32:39):
the upsetting fire ablaze.
Let's just burn it all and pushit to tell it's dead and we'll
just get new ones after that.
Now, like I said, that is alittle bit riskier and it's a
fine strategy.
It's not necessarily one Irecommend, because there's one
ever moving piece of motion inthe background and that is
(33:01):
cybersecurity.
That is, you know, securityprotocols, etc, etc.
And who knows how smart thisstuff is going to get in the
long run?
Who knows if you know, in fiveyears you know you buy a new
domain and for an entire yearyou have to warm it up, or you
know that lead time from fourweeks becomes up to a year?
(33:23):
Who knows what it's going tolook like in the future?
We do know that over the lasttwo years that volume threshold
point has been rapidlydecreasing.
That over the last two yearsthat volume threshold point has
been rapidly decreasing.
When I first started cold emailfour, maybe five years ago, you
could send 50 emails a day five, zero, from every single email
account.
(33:43):
The recommended number I justsaid a couple minutes ago was 15
.
That's like a massive decrease.
So over time, you know, wedon't know how strict those
rules are going to get.
There's another factor that theESPs email service providers use
to determine hey, this guy'sgood, he passes all the green
flags like, let him send emailsas he wishes, and that is age
(34:05):
age of a domain, age of an email.
For example, if I created a newcold email account today, it's
got an age of one day years old.
It's an infant, it's a baby.
If I had one that's been aroundfor two years, that's a mature,
that's someone we can trust,that's someone with a reputation
with us.
And so I think if you're on themore riskier side, just know
(34:28):
that although now it's not toopunishing, we don't know how
punishing it'll become in thefuture if you're constantly
trying to use infant domains tosend and really pushing that
threshold as far as you can go.
So those are the two schools ofthought when it comes to
general volume per email account.
I'm not going to recommend oneor the other.
(34:49):
I just happen to be in theconservative camp.
Speaker 2 (34:51):
Very nice, very nice, and I've never heard it
explained that way, but thatmakes a lot of sense.
That makes a lot of sense and Ithink this is one of the
reasons why you would want towork with a professional in the
industry is, as things changefrom 50 to 25 to who knows what
in the future, I think stayingahead of that makes a lot of
sense.
So, perrin, before we get inthe fire round, I would like to
(35:14):
talk to you about the type ofclients that you work with and
what's your sweet spot in termsmotivated business owners.
Speaker 3 (35:36):
In a weird way like, yes, I'll talk about industry in
a moment, but for me it's anattitude and understanding where
, hey, let's strip back your egoand let's learn how to go to
market together.
You know, I think it's reallytough to do sales outreach and a
lot of strategy.
Like a lot of people forget howmuch strategy it takes to come
(35:56):
up with a good outreach campaignIf they are already lock solid
in their beliefs and won't letus challenge that at all.
That's number one.
Number two is a lot of ourclients actually do work with
e-commerce businesses.
So, you know, we do.
Probably 70 to 80 percent of allof our work is generating
(36:19):
business leads in e-commerce.
So this is typically serviceproviders, a slew of marketers.
This is SaaS companies,cybersecurity companies, and it
is people who are trying to geta hold of e-commerce businesses.
Like, hey, I work with a lot ofcoffee companies, I want to
(36:40):
help more coffee companies makeamazing content and those are
the types of people that we goout and help.
Or performance marketers or etcetera, et cetera.
So that's the realm we're inwhen we talk more about like,
what is someone who's like justcompletely primed to go
ballistic on outreach and reallyfill up their calendars.
(37:02):
We'd love to see you know proofof success.
One thing I believe strongly inbusiness is case studies.
It's proof that you are who yousay you are and it's so, so
powerful to tell a stranger anamazing offer and be like, oh
yeah, and we can back it upbecause we did it for someone
(37:23):
who's just like you before.
So I love seeing case studiesas well.
So, in a nutshell, you knowsomeone who is open to
shattering their beliefs andtheir go to mark, current go to
market strategy, someone who hascase studies and someone
selling to e-commerce.
That's really kind of our sweetspot you.
Speaker 2 (37:52):
Before we wrap up, I would like to get into the fire
round.
This is four questions we askevery guest at the end of the
show.
Speaker 3 (37:56):
Are you ready?
Let's do it all, right?
No deal, deal, here we go.
What's your case?
Speaker 2 (37:58):
number 14, that's right.
What's your favorite book?
Speaker 3 (38:02):
favorite book, I'm going to say ender's game it is.
I'm a huge sci-fi fantasy guyand my grandfather I remember
being young he's like you haveto read this book and it's all
about strategy and manipulationand war tactics, but in an alien
(38:23):
and sci-fi realm, and blew mysocks off when I read it.
Highly recommend if you're intosci-fi.
Blew my socks off when I readit.
Highly recommend if you're intosci-fi.
Speaker 2 (38:31):
Very nice.
I read that one back in highschool and really, really
enjoyed it.
I have to break that back outagain.
Speaker 3 (38:40):
So next question what are your hobbies?
Hobbies so I come from a musicbackground and a sports
background.
Growing up I actually before Igot into all the nerdy stuff and
psychology and sales I'm in now.
I used to be like a musicproducer and a sound engineer.
(39:01):
So when I do have free time Ilove to try to get back into
some tracks and really peel backthe science behind what makes
music sound good.
I think if I could center it all, I'm a nerd.
I'll happily say that I'm anerd.
Anything I want to do, I try tostudy it pretty deeply and
that's something that I love.
I also love to.
You know, the older I get, theharder it is, but I love to stay
(39:22):
active.
Playing basketball was alwaysbeen a love of mine and I'll
take any chance I can get to getout there.
I happen to, you know, go to agym that Michael Jordan used to
train on, and so it's really funto get out there.
You kind of feel I don't knowlike you're.
You could be.
You could be Michael Jordan ifyou just spent enough hours here
(39:44):
, right?
So as far as hobbies go, thoselike the nerdy stuff rules my
life and gives me a lot of joy,and you know I love to be out
and about, try new food, travel,all this stuff.
But if I can be like whatbrings me joy, it's like
learning, being a nerd andgetting into.
You know those things.
Speaker 2 (40:03):
Cool, Cool.
Very nice Number three.
What is one thing you do notmiss about working for the man?
Speaker 3 (40:11):
That is.
I really do not miss I reallytwo things.
Number one is I always feltthere was a competition, uh, who
could work longer?
I'm a results oriented, I'mlike results first.
I really believe in work smartversus working long, and it
(40:33):
really felt like a competitionto me.
And you know, I think workshould be enjoyable.
I think that's why anyone whostarts their own business, kind
of like, has this belief where,like hey I want to create the
life for myself, I want to chasemy dreams, I want to, you know,
be who I want to be and timebeing finite kind of backing on
that old conversation, you know,if the work and the man kind of
(40:54):
constricts, that time it'sreally frustrating and that was
something that I desperately,desperately wanted to get out of
.
So, yeah, that's probably thenumber one thing and I'll hang
my head on that that checks out,that checks out.
Speaker 2 (41:14):
I that checks out, that checks out.
Um and last question what doyou think sets apart successful
entrepreneurs from those whogive up, fail or never get
started?
Speaker 3 (41:20):
Yeah, I think.
Um, well, number one, like you,just have to be okay with
failure and embarrassment.
Um, it's, it's reallypersistent.
I think if you really look atall the entrepreneurs, there are
obviously geniuses, but a lotof people are really, first and
foremost, they believe inthemselves and they're
persistent.
Um, failure I touched on it sobriefly when we first started
(41:45):
this conversation.
You have to be okay withfailure.
You have to be able to learnfrom your mistakes and you're
going to be so good.
Just believe it's really beliefin who you are.
Don't be afraid to fail, don'tbe afraid to be embarrassed.
Talk about that stuff.
I think a lot of people hesitateto act.
(42:05):
They wait for that perfect shot.
In fact, I saw an animation awhile ago talking about this.
Imagine there's moving shieldsin front of your face and there
are two people moving shields infront of your face and on the
other side is a target.
On the other side is you with abow and an arrow and there's
someone next to you and one ofthe two archers is waiting for
the perfect moment when theshield is out of the way.
(42:27):
The other archer is constantlyfiring, he's hitting the shield,
he's missing the target, he'sdoing all this stuff and get
guess who was the first one tohit the target, the one who kept
trying and failing over andover again.
Um, so, you know, I, I thinkthat's that's really.
It is like be ready to be, beready to fail, be okay with
(42:48):
taking on debt, be okay withembarrassment, be okay with
sacrificing a social life,because life is what you make it
.
You get out what you put in, soput in effort.
Speaker 2 (42:59):
Outstanding.
Well, Perrin, this has been areally good interview.
If people are interested ingetting in touch with you,
what's the best way?
Speaker 3 (43:07):
The best way to get in touch is to obviously send me
a cold email.
I'm kidding you can head overto revascensionio, that is
R-E-V-A-C-C-E-N-T-I-O.
From there we have, you know,just my personal calendar
integrated onto our website andthat's really the best way to
(43:28):
come and speak with me.
We personally don't send toomuch website traffic over.
We really have all of ourtraffic come from email directly
kind of hilarious.
But you know that's a greatplace to get a hold of me and
just have a chat so I can hear alittle bit more about your
business and see, hey, maybe youshould use cold email.
Speaker 2 (43:47):
There we go, all right.
Well, perrin, this has been anoutstanding podcast and looking
forward to staying in touch.
Speaker 3 (43:54):
Yeah, absolutely Dave .
I appreciate the time today.
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The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy, Jess Hilarious, And Charlamagne Tha God!