October 13, 2021 • 54 mins
This week on First Coat we have Mallory Rukhsana Nezam. Mallory is a cross-sector culture-maker who loves cities and believes that we have the tools to make them more just and joyful. She specializes in public art, creative placemaking/keeping/knowing, organizational development, strategic planning, facilitation and the public domain. Through her cross-sector practice, Justice + Joy, she engages stakeholders across sectors to de-silo the way we run cities and build new models of creative, interdisciplinary collaboration.
In this episode we talk about using play and absurdity to create connections in public space, embedding artists into the process of city making, and how to use art and culture as a tool for transportation justice and equitable development.
Show Notes: https://distillcreative.com/blog/10/13/21/art-in-public-space-with-mallory-rukshana-nezam-ep-20
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Stephanie Eche (00:02):
Welcome to First Coat, where we explore public
art, how it's made and why itmatters. I'm your host,
Stephanie Eche, an artist andart consultant based in
Brooklyn, New York, I interviewartists, cultural producers and
funders about how art in publicspace happens, and how to create
more equitable and inclusiveprojects in public space. I also
(00:23):
share my tips on how tocommission art projects for your
business, how I run my artconsulting business, Distill
Creative, and how I'm developingmy own art practice. If you like
what you hear, please leave areview and consider supporting
this project on Patreon. I editproduce, and basically do
everything myself so any supportis really appreciated. If you're
interested in artwork for yourbusiness or home, check out
(00:45):
distillcreative.com I hope youenjoy this episode. This week on
First Coat we have MalloryRukshana Nezam. Mallory is a
cross-sector culture maker wholoves cities and believes that
we have the tools to make themmore just and joyful. She
specializes in public art,creative placemaking, keeping,
knowing, organizationaldevelopment, strategic planning
(01:06):
facilitation, and the publidomain. Through her cross-secto
practice, Justice + Joy, shengages stakeholders acros
sectors to de-silo the way we rn cities, and build new models
f creative interdisciplinay collaboration. In this episod
, we talk about using playnd absurdity to create connecti
ns in public space, embeddng artists into the process of c
(01:27):
ty making, and how to use artnd culture as a tool
or transportation justicend equitable development. Her
's our conversatiWelcome to First Coat. Thank you
so much for being here. I'mreally excited to chat with you
because we haven't caught up ina while and I want to hear all
about all the things you'reworking on. Can you tell us who
you are and what you do?
Mallory Rukshana Nezam (01:48):
Hi, I'm Mallory Rukshana Nezam. I am a
cross-sector, creativeconsultant. That's a lot of
'C's'. Yeah, I have a creativepractice and then I advise
people as a consultant, sort ofhave two arms of what I do.
Stephanie Eche (02:12):
And how would you define art in public space?
Mallory Rukshana Nezam (02:15):
Yeah, I mean, most of my work is in
public space, and hashistorically been as an, like a
public artists, social practiceartists, and also as a
consultant who works in urbanplanning and policy, so I'm
really always thinking aboutpublic space. And I would say
(02:38):
that, when I, when I think ofart and culture in the context
of public space, a lot of thatis about the meaning making that
can happen in public space. Soyou know, otherwise, like public
spaces are just these physicalentities, their infrastructure,
their materials, their points ona map, but what makes them
(03:02):
meaningful? It's the culture ofthese spaces. It's, it's the
creative expression of the folkswho spend time they're the folks
who are invited in and thenpeople who have like,
historically had relationshipsto those spaces, and maybe even
future in the future that peoplewho, who want to have
(03:23):
relationships to those spaces,but don't yet.
Stephanie Eche (03:29):
Do you have a specific memory of first
experiencing art in publicspace?
Mallory Rukshana Nezam (03:35):
Yes, I do. It was music. How old was I,
I was probably, maybe as youngas seven. And an aunt of mine,
played hand drums, and she wouldgo every Sunday to this drumming
circle. And I started going withher. And it was just kind of an
(04:00):
informal gathering of folks whoplayed the drums played hand
drums, and it was a consistentgroup of people that I got to
know and I was the only kid wasall adults, and then a bit of an
audience that would circlearound. And if you know St.
Louis, which is my hometown, itwas in the loop. And if you
(04:21):
know, Nelly, I think he singsabout the loop. So this is, this
is where it was, like a heavilyfoot trafficked area of the
city, and there aren't a ton ofthose in St. Louis. So it was a
really activated space. And youknow, I guess that impression of
just the in- like informal kindof gathering spaces around art.
(04:47):
And in this case, music wasreally seemed really normal to
me. And that I would imagine toa lot of children, that's a very
natural way to be, but therewere not a ton of those
opportunities, you know, in likea mid sized city in the 80s and
90s.
Stephanie Eche (05:11):
Yeah, especially as a child, like, it's awesome
that your aunt took you.
Mallory Rukshana Nezam (05:17):
Yeah, yeah, she introduced me to- she
also introduced me to poetry, Iwrote my first poems with her, I
have an, I have an uncle whointroduced me to painting and
drawing, when I was young, and Ireally took to all I took to all
of those art forms a lot, and I,you know, it's like public
(05:37):
schools offered technique, Ithink, but then having
experiences that kind of, like,took the technique and
recontextualized it, and somewere kind of surprising, like,
you know, a street and my uncleused to do like, like nature
(06:02):
scenes, so we would go out inthe woods, my grandparents
house. And I mean, I guess it'skind of a public, it's kind of a
private space, but it was adifferent context, you know,
like, outside of, you know, inlike an art and a studio or
something. And I was interactingwith the world and understanding
(06:23):
it through drawing and painting.
And he would teach me aboutplants and medicinal properties
in different uses of plants. Andthen I would learn to paint and
draw them in detail with them.
Don't do as much of painting anddrawing now. But I, that was a
big part of my life. When I wasa kid.
Stephanie Eche (06:43):
That's awesome.
Good job, aunt and uncle.
Mallory Rukshana Nezam (06:47):
Now I'm an aunt and I'm like really into
making music with my nephew.
That was his one of his birthdaypresents. For his first
birthday, I got him like a fewwooden instruments, I play my
ukulele and sing with him. Andhe, like, I can see, I can
almost see like his whole bodyis is reacting and connecting to
(07:09):
music and the physicalvibrations of it. And I think
kids take really naturally torhythm. And yeah, it's really
fun to kind of like notice theseways that young people respond
in some intuitive way to acreative a practice. And then,
not forcefully, but just kind ofexposing them to more of it and
(07:34):
seeing where they want to gowith it. So I guess I'm
continuing that tradition insome way with my nephew.
Stephanie Eche (07:45):
Definitely. How did you first start doing work
in public space?
Mallory Rukshana Nezam (07:51):
Well, maybe I've been doing it since I
was around that six or sevenyear age. I did. I used to
write, and cast and direct playsin the neighborhood for the
neighborhood. So I was doingthat when I was like, six or
(08:16):
seven. It had to be six orseven, because I'm thinking of
Yeah, where I was at that time,and I was around that age. So
I've been doing it since then, Iwould say and I used to, I also
used to sell my artworks door todoor. I still have some of them.
It's like in the corner, it says25 cents for a drawing, and that
(08:41):
would just take them door todoor and see if people wanted to
buy them. Sometimes they did. Imade some like films, but those
weren't necessarily publicpublic space. But yeah, I did
like Public Theater, I would saypretty young. And then when I
came into my adulthood, I reallymade like a conscious, I
(09:05):
consciously moved into what Iunderstood to be like a public
art practice, formally, when Imoved back to the States after
living in Spain, and I wasreally like, experiencing a
reverse culture shock of thedifferences in how people used
public space here. And for forfolks who are not super familiar
(09:30):
with those differences, speakingreally, really broadly. If I
felt like in the city that I wasliving in in Spain, that there
was a much more a lot, just morelife happened in public space.
Like I interacted with strangersa lot more frequently than I
would here. People were morewilling to talk to me if they
(09:53):
didn't know me. There was a lotof music. There were a lot of
artisans selling waresinformally, there are a lot of
festivals. There were it wasjust like a lot of formal and
informal art and culture inpublic space and interaction as
(10:14):
a result of it. And when I cameback to the States, I, I was
just like, wait, this isn'thappening here, like people are,
I seriously felt like peoplewere just like constantly
anxious and fearful in publicspace, they were afraid to
(10:37):
interact with anybody. It was, Iremember how quiet it was on the
bus. It was so quiet. Andgranted, this was in St. Louis,
I came back. So in other citiesis probably not quite the same.
But there's still I think somecultural differences between the
US and Europe or Spain inparticular, even if you're in
(10:59):
New York, on the bus. But Idigress. It was so quiet. I was
like what, this is such anamazing opportunity to interact
with people that I maybewouldn't see in another context,
like this is a rich socialopportunity. And as a social
practice artist, I just startedto think like, this is what I
(11:20):
need. This is really like, whatI'm curious about and what I
want to push us to shift. Sothen I created a really formal
public art practice, to disruptthat kind of fear and isolation
in public spaces. And tocatalyze interactions between
(11:45):
strangers I used play. Andabsurdity, which isn't
necessarily a artistic form, butsort of like a maybe a nod to
surrealism or surrealistperformance, because my work is
performance oriented, in a wayto really like bring people to
(12:10):
kind of horizontally to a commonplace where everything is not
what you expect it to be all therules kind of break down in
these settings of play andabsurdity. It forces people to
be a lot more present anddisarmed with each other. And I
saw some really amazing, likelittle transformations in people
(12:34):
in some of the performance workthat my collective and I were
doing, right after I got backfrom Spain.
Stephanie Eche (12:44):
Are you an artist? Submit your portfolio at
distillcreative.com/artists,you'll get on our Distill
Directory, our artists databaseand be considered for upcoming
art commissions.
And how did you start doingconsulting in this type of like,
how did you move from doing moreof like being the performer in
(13:06):
this in social art practice? Andin doing all kinds of different
projects in this realm?
Mallory Rukshana Nezam (13:13):
Yeah, I guess, okay, I'm thinking there
are two, two ways that happened.
One is that I actually thinkthat a lot of my skills as a, in
performance training helped meto function as a facilitator.
(13:33):
And, in a lot of communitypractice, in collaborative
spaces there's often a need forsomeone who can, like bring
different parties together totalk about difficult things. And
I have a lot of training that Icould pull from actually in,
(13:54):
like my creative practice, tooffer different opportunities
for people to tap in to, likeexpress themselves, to share
things that might be difficultto get out of their comfort
zone. Even just like improvtraining, helps people really be
present in the moment and kindof like stop holding back from
(14:15):
political niceties, or, youknow, doubting yourself. And so
I started to bring some of thosetools into rooms and it really,
really started to lead me into arole of facilitating difficult
conversations, especially incommunity contexts. And often
like between community members,or between the institutions,
(14:38):
doing projects with localcommunities where there's
distrust, so I would say likethose tool, those artistic tools
of performance of have broughtme into a consulting practice
where I can work as afacilitator. And then also, I
would say, I made this movementfrom focusing on my creative
(14:59):
practice to working as acreative problem solver, and a
creative strategist, around thetime that Mike Brown was
murdered in St. Louis, or inFerguson, I was living in St.
Louis at the time and it was a,it was a big part of my world
(15:20):
as, as an activist, as a personof color as an artist, and as
just a community member livingin the same area. And what
shifted for me is, I was doingwhat I thought was really
powerful artwork, I personallyfelt that my work was
(15:44):
meaningful. And the messagesthat were being conveyed were
powerful. The artistic qualitywas high, and then, you know, I
was also getting a stamp ofapproval saying yes, this work
is good from, you know, entitiesthat were granting, granting me,
(16:05):
you know, funding or collectorsthat were collecting the work.
So the work was good, right?
Okay, it was powerful work. ButI was really frustrated with the
fact that my work, wants toadvance social good to advance
(16:25):
justice. And I just didn't feellike the work was doing that. I
was looking at data and seeinglike, okay, same number of
people are dying from beingkilled by police, like the same
number of people are beingstopped unnecessarily by police.
So specifically, looking atthose measurements of policing
in my community, it's like,okay, the artwork is great, but
(16:48):
what's changing, you know? Sothen I started to think, okay,
how can I actually get involvedin really in that tangible
change, I want to see policychange, I want to, I want to be
at the table where we'redesigning some of the ways our
cities are structured and set upand I come from a city that's
very geographically segregated.
So for me, that like design ofspace really reinforces
(17:13):
inequity. So I was thinking alsovery, like, physically and in
infrastructurally, aboutjustice. And yeah, so then I
started to become more involvedin urban planning and community
development work, I moved to DC,which is where we met, was
(17:35):
working with Smart GrowthAmerica and transportation for
America, and got invited to joina new arts and culture teams to
integrate arts and culture as atool to integrate my already
said, integrate, integrate artsand culture as a tool to further
transportation justice, andequitable community development.
(17:57):
Historically, mean artists havekind of been invited into those
spaces, but not necessarily aslike central problem solving
partners. They they've beeninvited in kind of at the end of
a project, but I really wasworking to bring them in at the
(18:18):
beginning. And that's what I getreally excited about is
integrating artists, embeddingthem into processes, because I
think they bring a verydifferent perspective, that's
usually at its best, quitecurious, and quite humble. Like,
I think that there's a powerthat artists can bring of
(18:44):
assuming that they don't reallyknow and that they're, they're
on a journey to try tounderstand. I think that is,
maybe another way that we cantalk about art is it's, it's
that meaning making. It's like,what's going on here, what am I
noticing and sensing about thisplace? What are the dynamics?
What happened before? What dopeople want? It's like the,
those are all questions. And Iguess that's also central to
(19:06):
what artists are bringing intothese non art spaces is, like,
just not being afraid to askquestions to do things
differently. Yeah.
Stephanie Eche (19:25):
I think also what you were talking about
earlier, to, to be okay withbeing uncomfortable, and to make
people feel uncomfortable, butin a respectful way, and in a
way that actually brings peopletogether and crosses sectors as
opposed to, you know, pissingsomeone off and dividing
segments because I think rightnow we're seeing like the
(19:48):
overlapping of so many differentthings. And it's it's hard to
deal with if you're just stuckin your lane, and you're not
able to have those conversationsor even communicate with another
person in a meaningful way.
Mallory Rukshana Nezam (20:00):
You know, you just hit on something
I, the other day I was I waskind of coming back to this
feeling that actually one of theone of the things that can fuel
artists is discord anddiscomfort, like it's actually a
point of creative departure,instead of something to shy away
(20:22):
from which I think otherprofessions have been trained
that that's like, that's a badthing. We don't want to go
there, if that comes up, we'redoing a bad job. But I would say
that artists are actuallytrained to lean into it. And
that that can really fuel whatyou're doing. And if you apply
(20:44):
that principle, so that maybethat's an example of a lot of
how I work, I take thatprinciple of artistic practice.
And I'll say, okay, engineersworking on this project, or, you
know, designers and architects,what if we lean into the
discomfort of the communityasking for something that we
(21:06):
think is ugly? Why do we thinkit's ugly? What are our cultural
assumptions of beauty? You know,what are we bringing in to the
project without even knowing andthen leaning into that
discomfort allows you to open upto all sorts of things, the
project's probably going to betotally different than you
expected, but also actuallyserve better serve the people
(21:33):
who are in the place that aregoing to use it, or who have
some stake in it?
Stephanie Eche (21:39):
How do you define cultural equity?
Mallory Rukshana Nezam (21:43):
That's a really big question. I, there's
so many different componentsthat I would consider because I,
when I think about culturalequity, I'm like, my brains
already starting to think of itin terms of how do I document
and kind of show progress onmoving from inequity to equity,
(22:03):
some might call thatmeasurement. I'm going to say
document progress, instead ofmeasurement, because I don't
know sometimes that word canbring up feelings for me. But in
cultural equity and public art,I would, I would hope that that
(22:24):
means that there is accuraterepresentation in who the
artists are, that are that arebeing displayed in public spaces
that are invited to to work orhave their work protected, and
funded in public space. And whenI say accurate representation, I
(22:47):
mean, like, I want to know whoactually lives there. And I want
to look at the census track. AndI want to know, who has
historically lived there. Soit's not just about the present.
And I would say like, a lot ofmy I went to, nod to the friends
of mine who have indigenousroots that are really pushed for
(23:10):
me to learn my own relationshipto time and to like history,
because if we just stick tocensus data, right, we're only
looking at like, Who's thereright now. But there are a lot
of people who have relationshipto places that don't live there
right now, for whatever reason,displacement, or, you know, just
(23:34):
need financial need or climatechange. Lots of different
reasons, opportunitieselsewhere. But so yeah, who, who
is represented as an artist, andwe have to look at kind of a
whole timescale past to present.
And then I also think about partof equity is what kind of work
is being shared. So not justwho's there but like, are we
(23:56):
really representing artisticdisciplines well? Are we
representing different kinds ofnarratives, perspectives and
stories? Because if we have youknow, we're like, okay, we have
this great array of likedifferent races of artists that
are that are really reflect thecommunity, but everybody is
(24:18):
practicing in one particularmedium, you know, you're missing
out on folks who are trained inmaybe like, not as commonly
practiced mediums or mediumsthat are handed down through a
cultural lineage that are notrecognized through mainstream
public art frameworks. I alsothink about placement of public
(24:42):
art as part of the culturalequity framework. So to simply
put it like it, the artworkshouldn't always go in wealthy
areas, and there have beenproblems with that in many
cities, and many public artplans. And also they shouldn't
go in places that people don'twant them. There are also lots
(25:04):
of stories of public art beingin spaces that really just don't
work for people. But somebodywanted to put it there who had
the power to do so. And some ofthose get removed. So you also
might be wasting your time.
Also, who selects artworks, youknow, who gets to serve on
(25:25):
juries? Is that a realrepresentation of who's there?
Are you accounting for historicand equity when you're choosing
people for a jury process or apanel? And then lastly, I would
say the process itself of thatwhole process of finding spaces,
(25:48):
finding artists, even curators,selection panels, and the way
that community is engagedthroughout the process, that the
whole process itself needs to bedone through equitable practice
and have that as a North Starthroughout the whole run.
Stephanie Eche (26:13):
I think that was a really good list. It sounds
exhausting, but it's like, youcan't really not do any of those
things and consider itequitable.
Mallory Rukshana Nezam (26:25):
And it is a long list. But I'd like
more we do it, the more it won'tfeel like a long list.
Stephanie Eche (26:32):
Right. And so many of these things, like seem
like no-brainers but when youlook at projects, usually none
of them are followed like, it's,it's, it's insane. Especially if
you start looking at privatelyfunded projects, which sure
they're privately funded, buthow do people get so much money,
you know, like, tax breaks, andthe city, bringing them into the
(26:56):
space to begin with? And, youknow, wealth is inequitable. So
when you start thinking about itthat way, it's like, every
everything that's funded shouldbe equitable. Whether or not
it's in public space. And canyou talk about your work with
the Brookline Greenway?
Mallory Rukshana Nezam (27:15):
Yeah, I was on a design team that got
selected to, to set the designfor the Greenway. And it was, I
think it's relatively uncommonfor artists to be on to be
informing the design, like I, inother models that I have seen
(27:39):
artists are brought in likespecifically to do art things
for for Greenways, or UrbanTrails. And we did also do did
that, but there were three ofus. And we we also were invited
to actually like, inform thedesign, like, where is the
(28:01):
Greenway going to go? How do wedecide where it goes first?
Second, third, what are thosedynamics? What does even the
pavement look like? You know,real design questions. And I
respect the difference betweendesigners and artists. And I
(28:23):
think, you know, that'ssomething I don't want to
suggest that, like, artists are,should be doing what designers
are doing. But I do think,because they are different
disciplines, that there's a lot,there's an important crossover
that can happen, especially inthe early part of a process, for
(28:44):
example, to consider, like, evenif we just talk about pavement,
because I, as I mentionedearlier, thinking about like art
public art as meaning making inthe spaces, how do we use that
lens of meaning making to thinkabout what the pavement looks
like? So like, are thereopportunities to, for, for us to
(29:08):
kind of uncover story andhistory through the choice of
material? Are there symbols andemblems embedded in on the
ground? Are there do people getto submit things that are
integrated into the ground workitself? So these, this is kind
(29:30):
of the way that we start toblend art and design where the
designers might be saying likethis, really, this works, really
this material works really wellfor the climate we have here.
And you know, it emulates thenatural landscape, the the color
tones in the landscape, thegeometry, landscape, etc. And
(29:52):
then we might the artist teammight come in and say, yeah, and
then what if we recognize thatlike the video neighborhood
we're going through here wasredlined. And how do we bring
that into the way that we'rethinking about actually even
designing the pavement, or wherethe trail goes. So that's, I
(30:14):
guess, like a little snapshotinto how the artists team worked
with the, on a design team tocreate a Greenway. And and then
there are some other projects.
There's a memorial, or amonument that, Damon Davis,
who's honored on our team isreally leading. And that's to
(30:36):
commemorate Mill Creek Valley,which is a historic, really
thriving black neighborhood inSt. Louis, that was just
decimated by the imposition of ahighway build, which is not an
(30:58):
uncommon story. But maybe what'suncommon is to talk about it and
to spend like a lot of time,energy and money to create
artworks that allow people toengage in that history. And
especially for I mean, we are,this is such a racially divided
(31:20):
city, I don't have thestatistics, but like the,
there's this Stark line calledthe Delmar Divide that divides
the north side of the city,south side of the city. And the
like the median home incomes arejust so dramatically different
on across that line. The racialmakeup is so dramatically
(31:42):
different, the median income isso dramatically different. And
then you can look at the historyof disinvestment in the north
side, and the history ofredlining and see how, like,
very clearly policy racistpolicy has perpetuated the
racial inequities and racialinjustice in this city. So with
(32:04):
that context, to have a Greenwayproject that goes through, I
don't even I think it's like 20,something neighborhoods, I don't
know what number we're at now.
But a lot of neighborhoods thatgoes across this dividing line,
and that is now incorporatinginto it, a monument to a
(32:25):
redlined neighborhood is a bigdeal for the city. Because we
are a city that doesn't want totalk about racism. Again, we're
not alone in that. But we're acity that doesn't want to talk
about racism that was on a worldstage that featured how violent
(32:45):
our racism is, and we stilldon't want to deal with it. So
these artistic interventions,this Greenway, the Memorial
Project, is one of the ways thatwe hope to create a site in a
space to, to say, like this,this is our true, true history
(33:09):
or true identity, we want you toengage with it. And we want to
create a space where we think alot of different people can come
together and be with thishistory. And I think it's also
it requires a certain level ofskillfulness, to be able to
(33:29):
create sites that allow forpeople to interact in a lot of
different ways with somethingthat might be challenging. I was
just talking about this, that Ireally don't enjoy prescriptive
public space, where it's like,you come here and you like, it's
(33:51):
everything is designed for youto be in one way to interact
with the world with artwork andwith people in one way. That
still feels like oppression tome. I want a public space that
offers me options thatrecognizes that like, we live in
a dynamic multicultural,multiracial democracy. And
(34:14):
people are going to use thisspace in a lot of different
ways. And when I create thespace and when I bring in the
artworks, I am thinking of that,and I am building from that up
to the actual project. And Iguess the Greenway is at its
(34:36):
best trying to do that. I'm lessinvolved in it right now than I
was in the past. But I thinkwhen I was involved in it in the
past, that was the aspiration.
Stephanie Eche (34:50):
Can you talk a little bit about how you think
artists and cultural producerscan work with government?
Mallory Rukshana Nezam (34:59):
Sure. I believe that the simplest way to
put it is that artists arereally adept creative problem
solvers, government solvesproblems. What if they saw
problems more creatively? Andwith a bit more soul? That's the
(35:26):
core of it for me, I often hearand also believe that artists
are, okay, let me let me justsay government clearly has a
fractured relationship withcommunity. Pretty much all
communities. But there's aspectrum, like, you know, the
(35:48):
more marginalized the communityis, typically the more fractured
the relationship is, there'sdistrust, and there's a lot of
reason to have that distrust.
There have been some successfulcollaborations where artists
have been embedded inside ofgovernment and kind of been
like, at the helm of work, andbeen able to start to heal some
(36:09):
other relationships in the bondswith community. Again, I was
just talking about this withsomeone. And while I do believe
that that's possible, like thereis the the skillfulness of some
kinds of artistic practitionersthat have this ability to offer,
(36:30):
like the social intelligence andcultural awareness that I
unfortunately find uncommon ingovernment work, yet, I also get
quite, there's a yellow lightfor me, that comes up when we
(36:53):
think that artists can healgovernment, or that artists can
be a surrogate, the good thegood surrogate of government,
that, I think that the what Iwant to see is that deeper work
that artists can do to helpgovernment from the inside out,
(37:15):
actually help with a culturalshift inside of the institution,
that then should result inbetter community relationships
and a different way, a differentpractice of engaging with
community. So it's, it's sort ofsimilar to me is the same
(37:37):
approaches like bottom up,community work, it's kind of
bottom up. It's almost like anorganizational change
methodology, where it's like youreally change the folks on the
team, and the culture of theteam to change how the team
works outside of itself andengages with any other entity
(37:58):
outside of government. And Ihave seen that happen. I will
say like, the artists inresidence, Marcus young, who's
based in the Twin Cities area,he was in residence with the
city of St. Paul for a number ofyears. And then more recently
was the was the creativevitality fellow, something like
(38:19):
that. He was in residence withthe Minnesota Department of
Transportation. So it's at thestate level, it was the first of
two state level artists andresidents programs inside of
state government. And he willlike he talks a lot about how
(38:39):
the most profound change that hehas seen in all of his
residencies inside of governmentbodies, has been seeing staff
shift and seeing culture shift.
And that's really what he's mostfocused on as an artist in
residence. And I think that thatis the long slower, it takes a
(39:02):
lot more time. But I thinkthat's also where some of the
most profound results can befrom bringing artists and
cultural producers intogovernment. I would like to see
it at every level, the local tothe federal, and I would like to
(39:23):
see an artist in everydepartment and every agency and
I appreciate those that aretaking the risk to prototype
these.I believe that we need tobe thinking of them not as one
off, but as the new normal. Weneed to be funding them as such.
We need to be budgeting them assuch. And we need to be bringing
(39:47):
people onto teams to supportbuilding them. That's one of the
projects I'm working on rightnow with Amanda Lovelee who was
the city artists and residentsof the city of St Paul for seven
or so years, and now work somefor parks department for the
(40:09):
county, I think. And thenJohanna Taylor, who's a
researcher and academic at ASU.
And the three of us are workingto create what we're calling
care lab, ci, our lab, whichstands for civic artists and
residents, that is a projectthat will allow us to support
(40:32):
governments that are curiousabout setting these programs up,
we'll provide them with trainingwith coaching. And we'll also be
doing public speaking if, ifit's helpful for us to sing the
praises of these programs andshare the research that we've
been doing. So this is a bigpassion area of mine. And one of
the one of the ways that I thinkthis is different from a lot of
(40:56):
the other things that I touch isI think, like there's art,
there's art, that there'spowerful art that points to a
thing. So it's like, I would saya lot of my work that came out
of Ferguson was work that waspointing at something, it was
(41:16):
saying this thing needs tochange, this thing over here is
wrong, this thing over here isright, this thing over here is
beautiful, this thing over hereis ugly, it's pointing to the
thing. And then there is a wayof approaching art that it
really is the thing. So the sothe artist saying artists can
(41:37):
reform government, well, I'm notgoing to create a thing that
points to that I'm going to, I'mgoing to do that. The artwork is
the reform of government. Andit's kind of like a weird brain
thing to get there. But that'sreally what I'm excited about
right now.
Stephanie Eche (41:57):
Yeah, I really resonate with that, because
that's kind of how I feel likeI'm working with the private
sector, like, part of my art istrying to get them to understand
their responsibilities and beingequitable, and how they fund
projects. And just because it'sprivate funding, just because it
might be in a private spacedoesn't mean they can skirt away
from that. And they have reallylarge budgets, often. And so
(42:22):
figuring that out of like, wehave to be doing that work,
otherwise, it just won't change,it'll still be the same people
getting the same funding, doingmaybe different work that points
at the problem, or the solution,but isn't actually changing.
It's like, it's like preachingto the choir work like, and the
people who like it, like it. AndI think I see that a lot with
(42:43):
all of the Black Lives Matterprotests to like, and I'm sure
you've seen it, too, it's likethe Instagram post about the
thing, by like, a white womanartist in Canada, it's just
like, it's not that they can't,you know, it's not that they
can't support the movement, it'snot that they can't even you
know, make money off of theirartwork about it necessarily,
(43:05):
it's just that all the attentionstill goes to the same people.
And that isn't really solvingthe problems. Like even changing
who the attention goes to isn'tnecessarily solving, solving the
problem. So even just havingpeople of color artists isn't
necessarily solving the problemstoo. And so it's like, there's
like baby steps. And then likethe larger infrastructure
(43:27):
change, and it's really excitingthat you and others are like,
working like we're all likelittle crickets, like trying to
do the work while also likegetting paid. Because because I
feel like people don't want todo the work to it's like not,
you know, they say they do orthey might want to and then like
(43:47):
when it comes down to it, it islong and hard and-
Mallory Rukshana Nezam (43:51):
Very tiring.
Stephanie Eche (43:53):
Yeah, it's tiring.
Mallory Rukshana Nezam (43:54):
It's yeah, it's a lot of work. And I
and I, the crickets metaphor, Iam like, everyone has a
different entry point, you know,into this whole ecosystem of
change. And I just want toaffirm that the way that I'm
working is just where I thinkI'm called to be. and I see
other people call to otherplaces, and we need them there.
(44:17):
We need people to be justleaning into what they're called
to do as as part of this wholeconstellation of a better world.
Stephanie Eche (44:29):
Are you a real estate developer looking for a
unique amenity for your site,get our free guide, 10 tips For
Commissioning A Site-Specificartwork at our website,
distillcreative.com.
I wonder how you thought aboutbasically training government
workers to think like artists orto just be more creative as
(44:51):
opposed to bringing in someoneelse all the time because that
was something I saw when Iworked at Vornado and real
estate, it's like, if youactually can inspire a different
way of thinking among all of thepeople. And it you know, it
starts with individuals, thenyou don't need another entity to
come in, whether that's aconsultant or a single person or
(45:12):
whatever, you can just createthis. And obviously, I want more
artists to get paid to dothings. So that's always good.
But how have you thought aboutthe actual, like, inspiring
change among people who alreadywork in government?
Mallory Rukshana Nezam (45:28):
That is so key. There's this organizing
principle in like, communityorganizing, political
organizing, that's about youkind of you work yourself out of
a job, that's really the goal,you're creating the capacity for
people to do the thing that theydon't quite yet have the
(45:48):
capacity to do. So if you workin the realm of creativity, then
your work is to cultivate thecreative capacity of whomever
you're working with. Andultimately, work yourself out of
needing to be there. Asteriskartists do have specialty in
their artistic craft, right,that will always be you know,
(46:12):
unique to artists, I will say Ihave seen that transformation in
some of the teams that I'veworked with, with individual
people, that it's almost This isgoing to be really abstract, but
it's almost like I see aloosening in within them. Like,
if they were solid form, they'relike, the molecules have just
(46:35):
sort of loosened up a littlebit. And there may be more like
a gas or a liquid or somethinglike they're just the rigidity
is lessened. And so that offersthat offers them like a window
into their own curiosity, andinto quite questioning the way
that they're doing things. Onereally literal thing I've seen
(47:02):
be successful is to actuallytransform physically the
workspace to have creative tohave things that just engender
creativity, and spark ideas andmake you like, feel alive in the
physical space. So like, I'vebeen in some workspaces, where
there's a rotating exhibition inthe hallway, where they bring,
(47:28):
the whole team gets tocontribute ideas to like a new
mural that's going to be in theoffice that everyone feels that
they like, had a say in and theyfeel this this pride over. I
have you even done like, littlelike poetry things in offices,
and especially if people arereally directly engaged in it.
(47:51):
And it's not just like, plop it,and not, you know, just plop it
down there, that doesn't workthe best. But I do think that
that is one very specific waythat you can start to bring more
creativity into a team. Andyeah, I guess I can just say
(48:11):
that, like, I saw it happen inactually all of the non arts
teams that I've been a part of,and I've also seen people
connect to their own creativepractice, like if someone is in
more of an office job situation,but has a like, plays a
saxophone or something. I'veseen that bringing, like
(48:33):
constantly being in anenvironment where you have
someone asking them about artsand culture in their housing
project, that they started totalk to me more about playing
saxophone, and why the saxophoneis meaningful to them. And when
they started playing it, andlike, hey, do you want to check
out this, this album I made whenI was 16. And like most people
(48:56):
are creative and I think justlike having that, that another
creative practitioner around,you can also just ignite that
that you probably already havein yourself. And if you don't
have it, then I do think thatsome of these really simple
tools like placing art inside ofworking environments. It's
(49:19):
probably not super measurable,but I definitely see it changing
the way people are just curiousand creative. I think you can
also infuse it into meetings,totally rethinking meetings, is
a whole nother thing that wedon't have time to talk about.
But there's another like reallytangible way .
Stephanie Eche (49:40):
We could do so many more follow up
conversations about thesethings. Because these are like
this is like my, what I thinkabout all the time and it's it's
like you've seen so many ofthese things happen also in in
real time, like it's notimaginary, it actually works.
So, yeah. Is there anythingthat's in inspiring you right
(50:00):
now any books you're readinganything you're listening to?
Mallory Rukshana Nezam (50:06):
Hmm, this is very simple, but just so
much of my creativity comes fromjust public space and being in
community and the fact thatwe've opened back up in a lot of
places due to vaccinations, thatis igniting my creativity again.
(50:30):
So just like vaccinations aremaking are inspiring me. I was
watching the Small Axe seriesfor a while. And that was I
think it's Alexander McQueen. Mysaying that right? Or is that a
different McQueen? No, that'sthe fashion designer Steve
McQueen. Alexander McQueen isinspiring, too, I guess. But,
(50:55):
um, McQueen, the filmmakersSmall Axe series has been such a
beautiful blend of like, musicand cinematography, and
storytelling, and it featureslike different corners of the
black community in London. Andit and it's, to me, it's one of
(51:19):
the ways that artists revealthat the ways in which we tend
to approach minority communitiesis monolithic. And this series
is telling all of these dynamicstories from all these different
like, curves and corners andcrevices of a very dynamic
(51:42):
community of people of Africandescent in London. So that's
been really cool. I've beenreading a lot of poetry Ada
Limon inspires me, women ofcolor poets, and specifically
(52:03):
her work. Yeah, I'll leavethose.
Stephanie Eche (52:10):
Well, I'll share links to everything that we
talked about, and everythingthat's inspiring you in the show
notes so people can take a look,thank you so much for sharing
and thank you for doing thisinterview. It was so nice to
talk to you more about this. Ifeel like we've had so many
conversations about thesethings. But it's so nice to
hear, especially about thegovernment work and how your
(52:30):
practice has shifted, but isstill very much an art practice.
And I'm excited for people tohear this because I think people
think of artists and they thinkof like one very specific thing,
even when they're funding it.
And so just understanding that,it's, it's not like always paint
on canvas. It can be lots ofdifferent things.
Mallory Rukshana Nezam (52:54):
Yeah. It can be so many things. And I
think we're going to keeprefining and redefining that
forever. I have one, there's oneartist David Davis that I
mentioned that I just reallylook up to, and I've had the
privilege of working with thathe calls himself a post
(53:16):
disciplinary artist. I'm like,there's like interdisciplinary,
there's multidisciplinary,there's transdisciplinary
there's post disciplinary, Imean we're just gonna keep
refining and yeah, just likeredefining what the artistic
practice is, and then what thatmeans to collaborate in
different spaces. I mean, it'sjust kind of a forever changing
(53:36):
thing, which is a lot of what'sfun about it.
Stephanie Eche (53:41):
Thank you so much.
Mallory Rukshana Nezam (53:43):
Yeah, go team yellow.
Stephanie Eche (53:46):
Thanks for listening to this episode of
First Coat. If you liked thispodcast, please leave a review.
Make sure to subscribe to theFirst Coat podcast wherever you
listen to podcasts, and followus on Instagram
@firstcoatpodcast or@distillcreative. First Coat is
a production of my company,Distill Creative. Check us out
at distillcreative.com
Welcome to First Coat, where we explore public
art, how it's made and why itmatters. I'm your host,
Stephanie Eche, an artist andart consultant based in
Brooklyn, New York, I interviewartists, cultural producers and
funders about how art in publicspace happens, and how to create
more equitable and inclusiveprojects in public space. I also
(00:23):
share my tips on how tocommission art projects for your
business, how I run my artconsulting business, Distill
Creative, and how I'm developingmy own art practice. If you like
what you hear, please leave areview and consider supporting
this project on Patreon. I editproduce, and basically do
everything myself so any supportis really appreciated. If you're
interested in artwork for yourbusiness or home, check out
(00:45):
distillcreative.com I hope youenjoy this episode. This week on
First Coat we have MalloryRukshana Nezam. Mallory is a
cross-sector culture maker wholoves cities and believes that
we have the tools to make themmore just and joyful. She
specializes in public art,creative placemaking, keeping,
knowing, organizationaldevelopment, strategic planning
(01:06):
facilitation, and the publidomain. Through her cross-secto
practice, Justice + Joy, shengages stakeholders acros
sectors to de-silo the way we rn cities, and build new models
f creative interdisciplinay collaboration. In this episod
, we talk about using playnd absurdity to create connecti
ns in public space, embeddng artists into the process of c
(01:27):
ty making, and how to use artnd culture as a tool
or transportation justicend equitable development. Her
's our conversatiWelcome to First Coat. Thank you
so much for being here. I'mreally excited to chat with you
because we haven't caught up ina while and I want to hear all
about all the things you'reworking on. Can you tell us who
you are and what you do?
Mallory Rukshana Nezam (01:48):
Hi, I'm Mallory Rukshana Nezam. I am a
cross-sector, creativeconsultant. That's a lot of
'C's'. Yeah, I have a creativepractice and then I advise
people as a consultant, sort ofhave two arms of what I do.
Stephanie Eche (02:12):
And how would you define art in public space?
Mallory Rukshana Nezam (02:15):
Yeah, I mean, most of my work is in
public space, and hashistorically been as an, like a
public artists, social practiceartists, and also as a
consultant who works in urbanplanning and policy, so I'm
really always thinking aboutpublic space. And I would say
(02:38):
that, when I, when I think ofart and culture in the context
of public space, a lot of thatis about the meaning making that
can happen in public space. Soyou know, otherwise, like public
spaces are just these physicalentities, their infrastructure,
their materials, their points ona map, but what makes them
(03:02):
meaningful? It's the culture ofthese spaces. It's, it's the
creative expression of the folkswho spend time they're the folks
who are invited in and thenpeople who have like,
historically had relationshipsto those spaces, and maybe even
future in the future that peoplewho, who want to have
(03:23):
relationships to those spaces,but don't yet.
Stephanie Eche (03:29):
Do you have a specific memory of first
experiencing art in publicspace?
Mallory Rukshana Nezam (03:35):
Yes, I do. It was music. How old was I,
I was probably, maybe as youngas seven. And an aunt of mine,
played hand drums, and she wouldgo every Sunday to this drumming
circle. And I started going withher. And it was just kind of an
(04:00):
informal gathering of folks whoplayed the drums played hand
drums, and it was a consistentgroup of people that I got to
know and I was the only kid wasall adults, and then a bit of an
audience that would circlearound. And if you know St.
Louis, which is my hometown, itwas in the loop. And if you
(04:21):
know, Nelly, I think he singsabout the loop. So this is, this
is where it was, like a heavilyfoot trafficked area of the
city, and there aren't a ton ofthose in St. Louis. So it was a
really activated space. And youknow, I guess that impression of
just the in- like informal kindof gathering spaces around art.
(04:47):
And in this case, music wasreally seemed really normal to
me. And that I would imagine toa lot of children, that's a very
natural way to be, but therewere not a ton of those
opportunities, you know, in likea mid sized city in the 80s and
90s.
Stephanie Eche (05:11):
Yeah, especially as a child, like, it's awesome
that your aunt took you.
Mallory Rukshana Nezam (05:17):
Yeah, yeah, she introduced me to- she
also introduced me to poetry, Iwrote my first poems with her, I
have an, I have an uncle whointroduced me to painting and
drawing, when I was young, and Ireally took to all I took to all
of those art forms a lot, and I,you know, it's like public
(05:37):
schools offered technique, Ithink, but then having
experiences that kind of, like,took the technique and
recontextualized it, and somewere kind of surprising, like,
you know, a street and my uncleused to do like, like nature
(06:02):
scenes, so we would go out inthe woods, my grandparents
house. And I mean, I guess it'skind of a public, it's kind of a
private space, but it was adifferent context, you know,
like, outside of, you know, inlike an art and a studio or
something. And I was interactingwith the world and understanding
(06:23):
it through drawing and painting.
And he would teach me aboutplants and medicinal properties
in different uses of plants. Andthen I would learn to paint and
draw them in detail with them.
Don't do as much of painting anddrawing now. But I, that was a
big part of my life. When I wasa kid.
Stephanie Eche (06:43):
That's awesome.
Good job, aunt and uncle.
Mallory Rukshana Nezam (06:47):
Now I'm an aunt and I'm like really into
making music with my nephew.
That was his one of his birthdaypresents. For his first
birthday, I got him like a fewwooden instruments, I play my
ukulele and sing with him. Andhe, like, I can see, I can
almost see like his whole bodyis is reacting and connecting to
(07:09):
music and the physicalvibrations of it. And I think
kids take really naturally torhythm. And yeah, it's really
fun to kind of like notice theseways that young people respond
in some intuitive way to acreative a practice. And then,
not forcefully, but just kind ofexposing them to more of it and
(07:34):
seeing where they want to gowith it. So I guess I'm
continuing that tradition insome way with my nephew.
Stephanie Eche (07:45):
Definitely. How did you first start doing work
in public space?
Mallory Rukshana Nezam (07:51):
Well, maybe I've been doing it since I
was around that six or sevenyear age. I did. I used to
write, and cast and direct playsin the neighborhood for the
neighborhood. So I was doingthat when I was like, six or
(08:16):
seven. It had to be six orseven, because I'm thinking of
Yeah, where I was at that time,and I was around that age. So
I've been doing it since then, Iwould say and I used to, I also
used to sell my artworks door todoor. I still have some of them.
It's like in the corner, it says25 cents for a drawing, and that
(08:41):
would just take them door todoor and see if people wanted to
buy them. Sometimes they did. Imade some like films, but those
weren't necessarily publicpublic space. But yeah, I did
like Public Theater, I would saypretty young. And then when I
came into my adulthood, I reallymade like a conscious, I
(09:05):
consciously moved into what Iunderstood to be like a public
art practice, formally, when Imoved back to the States after
living in Spain, and I wasreally like, experiencing a
reverse culture shock of thedifferences in how people used
public space here. And for forfolks who are not super familiar
(09:30):
with those differences, speakingreally, really broadly. If I
felt like in the city that I wasliving in in Spain, that there
was a much more a lot, just morelife happened in public space.
Like I interacted with strangersa lot more frequently than I
would here. People were morewilling to talk to me if they
(09:53):
didn't know me. There was a lotof music. There were a lot of
artisans selling waresinformally, there are a lot of
festivals. There were it wasjust like a lot of formal and
informal art and culture inpublic space and interaction as
(10:14):
a result of it. And when I cameback to the States, I, I was
just like, wait, this isn'thappening here, like people are,
I seriously felt like peoplewere just like constantly
anxious and fearful in publicspace, they were afraid to
(10:37):
interact with anybody. It was, Iremember how quiet it was on the
bus. It was so quiet. Andgranted, this was in St. Louis,
I came back. So in other citiesis probably not quite the same.
But there's still I think somecultural differences between the
US and Europe or Spain inparticular, even if you're in
(10:59):
New York, on the bus. But Idigress. It was so quiet. I was
like what, this is such anamazing opportunity to interact
with people that I maybewouldn't see in another context,
like this is a rich socialopportunity. And as a social
practice artist, I just startedto think like, this is what I
(11:20):
need. This is really like, whatI'm curious about and what I
want to push us to shift. Sothen I created a really formal
public art practice, to disruptthat kind of fear and isolation
in public spaces. And tocatalyze interactions between
(11:45):
strangers I used play. Andabsurdity, which isn't
necessarily a artistic form, butsort of like a maybe a nod to
surrealism or surrealistperformance, because my work is
performance oriented, in a wayto really like bring people to
(12:10):
kind of horizontally to a commonplace where everything is not
what you expect it to be all therules kind of break down in
these settings of play andabsurdity. It forces people to
be a lot more present anddisarmed with each other. And I
saw some really amazing, likelittle transformations in people
(12:34):
in some of the performance workthat my collective and I were
doing, right after I got backfrom Spain.
Stephanie Eche (12:44):
Are you an artist? Submit your portfolio at
distillcreative.com/artists,you'll get on our Distill
Directory, our artists databaseand be considered for upcoming
art commissions.
And how did you start doingconsulting in this type of like,
how did you move from doing moreof like being the performer in
(13:06):
this in social art practice? Andin doing all kinds of different
projects in this realm?
Mallory Rukshana Nezam (13:13):
Yeah, I guess, okay, I'm thinking there
are two, two ways that happened.
One is that I actually thinkthat a lot of my skills as a, in
performance training helped meto function as a facilitator.
(13:33):
And, in a lot of communitypractice, in collaborative
spaces there's often a need forsomeone who can, like bring
different parties together totalk about difficult things. And
I have a lot of training that Icould pull from actually in,
(13:54):
like my creative practice, tooffer different opportunities
for people to tap in to, likeexpress themselves, to share
things that might be difficultto get out of their comfort
zone. Even just like improvtraining, helps people really be
present in the moment and kindof like stop holding back from
(14:15):
political niceties, or, youknow, doubting yourself. And so
I started to bring some of thosetools into rooms and it really,
really started to lead me into arole of facilitating difficult
conversations, especially incommunity contexts. And often
like between community members,or between the institutions,
(14:38):
doing projects with localcommunities where there's
distrust, so I would say likethose tool, those artistic tools
of performance of have broughtme into a consulting practice
where I can work as afacilitator. And then also, I
would say, I made this movementfrom focusing on my creative
(14:59):
practice to working as acreative problem solver, and a
creative strategist, around thetime that Mike Brown was
murdered in St. Louis, or inFerguson, I was living in St.
Louis at the time and it was a,it was a big part of my world
(15:20):
as, as an activist, as a personof color as an artist, and as
just a community member livingin the same area. And what
shifted for me is, I was doingwhat I thought was really
powerful artwork, I personallyfelt that my work was
(15:44):
meaningful. And the messagesthat were being conveyed were
powerful. The artistic qualitywas high, and then, you know, I
was also getting a stamp ofapproval saying yes, this work
is good from, you know, entitiesthat were granting, granting me,
(16:05):
you know, funding or collectorsthat were collecting the work.
So the work was good, right?
Okay, it was powerful work. ButI was really frustrated with the
fact that my work, wants toadvance social good to advance
(16:25):
justice. And I just didn't feellike the work was doing that. I
was looking at data and seeinglike, okay, same number of
people are dying from beingkilled by police, like the same
number of people are beingstopped unnecessarily by police.
So specifically, looking atthose measurements of policing
in my community, it's like,okay, the artwork is great, but
(16:48):
what's changing, you know? Sothen I started to think, okay,
how can I actually get involvedin really in that tangible
change, I want to see policychange, I want to, I want to be
at the table where we'redesigning some of the ways our
cities are structured and set upand I come from a city that's
very geographically segregated.
So for me, that like design ofspace really reinforces
(17:13):
inequity. So I was thinking alsovery, like, physically and in
infrastructurally, aboutjustice. And yeah, so then I
started to become more involvedin urban planning and community
development work, I moved to DC,which is where we met, was
(17:35):
working with Smart GrowthAmerica and transportation for
America, and got invited to joina new arts and culture teams to
integrate arts and culture as atool to integrate my already
said, integrate, integrate artsand culture as a tool to further
transportation justice, andequitable community development.
(17:57):
Historically, mean artists havekind of been invited into those
spaces, but not necessarily aslike central problem solving
partners. They they've beeninvited in kind of at the end of
a project, but I really wasworking to bring them in at the
(18:18):
beginning. And that's what I getreally excited about is
integrating artists, embeddingthem into processes, because I
think they bring a verydifferent perspective, that's
usually at its best, quitecurious, and quite humble. Like,
I think that there's a powerthat artists can bring of
(18:44):
assuming that they don't reallyknow and that they're, they're
on a journey to try tounderstand. I think that is,
maybe another way that we cantalk about art is it's, it's
that meaning making. It's like,what's going on here, what am I
noticing and sensing about thisplace? What are the dynamics?
What happened before? What dopeople want? It's like the,
those are all questions. And Iguess that's also central to
(19:06):
what artists are bringing intothese non art spaces is, like,
just not being afraid to askquestions to do things
differently. Yeah.
Stephanie Eche (19:25):
I think also what you were talking about
earlier, to, to be okay withbeing uncomfortable, and to make
people feel uncomfortable, butin a respectful way, and in a
way that actually brings peopletogether and crosses sectors as
opposed to, you know, pissingsomeone off and dividing
segments because I think rightnow we're seeing like the
(19:48):
overlapping of so many differentthings. And it's it's hard to
deal with if you're just stuckin your lane, and you're not
able to have those conversationsor even communicate with another
person in a meaningful way.
Mallory Rukshana Nezam (20:00):
You know, you just hit on something
I, the other day I was I waskind of coming back to this
feeling that actually one of theone of the things that can fuel
artists is discord anddiscomfort, like it's actually a
point of creative departure,instead of something to shy away
(20:22):
from which I think otherprofessions have been trained
that that's like, that's a badthing. We don't want to go
there, if that comes up, we'redoing a bad job. But I would say
that artists are actuallytrained to lean into it. And
that that can really fuel whatyou're doing. And if you apply
(20:44):
that principle, so that maybethat's an example of a lot of
how I work, I take thatprinciple of artistic practice.
And I'll say, okay, engineersworking on this project, or, you
know, designers and architects,what if we lean into the
discomfort of the communityasking for something that we
(21:06):
think is ugly? Why do we thinkit's ugly? What are our cultural
assumptions of beauty? You know,what are we bringing in to the
project without even knowing andthen leaning into that
discomfort allows you to open upto all sorts of things, the
project's probably going to betotally different than you
expected, but also actuallyserve better serve the people
(21:33):
who are in the place that aregoing to use it, or who have
some stake in it?
Stephanie Eche (21:39):
How do you define cultural equity?
Mallory Rukshana Nezam (21:43):
That's a really big question. I, there's
so many different componentsthat I would consider because I,
when I think about culturalequity, I'm like, my brains
already starting to think of itin terms of how do I document
and kind of show progress onmoving from inequity to equity,
(22:03):
some might call thatmeasurement. I'm going to say
document progress, instead ofmeasurement, because I don't
know sometimes that word canbring up feelings for me. But in
cultural equity and public art,I would, I would hope that that
(22:24):
means that there is accuraterepresentation in who the
artists are, that are that arebeing displayed in public spaces
that are invited to to work orhave their work protected, and
funded in public space. And whenI say accurate representation, I
(22:47):
mean, like, I want to know whoactually lives there. And I want
to look at the census track. AndI want to know, who has
historically lived there. Soit's not just about the present.
And I would say like, a lot ofmy I went to, nod to the friends
of mine who have indigenousroots that are really pushed for
(23:10):
me to learn my own relationshipto time and to like history,
because if we just stick tocensus data, right, we're only
looking at like, Who's thereright now. But there are a lot
of people who have relationshipto places that don't live there
right now, for whatever reason,displacement, or, you know, just
(23:34):
need financial need or climatechange. Lots of different
reasons, opportunitieselsewhere. But so yeah, who, who
is represented as an artist, andwe have to look at kind of a
whole timescale past to present.
And then I also think about partof equity is what kind of work
is being shared. So not justwho's there but like, are we
(23:56):
really representing artisticdisciplines well? Are we
representing different kinds ofnarratives, perspectives and
stories? Because if we have youknow, we're like, okay, we have
this great array of likedifferent races of artists that
are that are really reflect thecommunity, but everybody is
(24:18):
practicing in one particularmedium, you know, you're missing
out on folks who are trained inmaybe like, not as commonly
practiced mediums or mediumsthat are handed down through a
cultural lineage that are notrecognized through mainstream
public art frameworks. I alsothink about placement of public
(24:42):
art as part of the culturalequity framework. So to simply
put it like it, the artworkshouldn't always go in wealthy
areas, and there have beenproblems with that in many
cities, and many public artplans. And also they shouldn't
go in places that people don'twant them. There are also lots
(25:04):
of stories of public art beingin spaces that really just don't
work for people. But somebodywanted to put it there who had
the power to do so. And some ofthose get removed. So you also
might be wasting your time.
Also, who selects artworks, youknow, who gets to serve on
(25:25):
juries? Is that a realrepresentation of who's there?
Are you accounting for historicand equity when you're choosing
people for a jury process or apanel? And then lastly, I would
say the process itself of thatwhole process of finding spaces,
(25:48):
finding artists, even curators,selection panels, and the way
that community is engagedthroughout the process, that the
whole process itself needs to bedone through equitable practice
and have that as a North Starthroughout the whole run.
Stephanie Eche (26:13):
I think that was a really good list. It sounds
exhausting, but it's like, youcan't really not do any of those
things and consider itequitable.
Mallory Rukshana Nezam (26:25):
And it is a long list. But I'd like
more we do it, the more it won'tfeel like a long list.
Stephanie Eche (26:32):
Right. And so many of these things, like seem
like no-brainers but when youlook at projects, usually none
of them are followed like, it's,it's, it's insane. Especially if
you start looking at privatelyfunded projects, which sure
they're privately funded, buthow do people get so much money,
you know, like, tax breaks, andthe city, bringing them into the
(26:56):
space to begin with? And, youknow, wealth is inequitable. So
when you start thinking about itthat way, it's like, every
everything that's funded shouldbe equitable. Whether or not
it's in public space. And canyou talk about your work with
the Brookline Greenway?
Mallory Rukshana Nezam (27:15):
Yeah, I was on a design team that got
selected to, to set the designfor the Greenway. And it was, I
think it's relatively uncommonfor artists to be on to be
informing the design, like I, inother models that I have seen
(27:39):
artists are brought in likespecifically to do art things
for for Greenways, or UrbanTrails. And we did also do did
that, but there were three ofus. And we we also were invited
to actually like, inform thedesign, like, where is the
(28:01):
Greenway going to go? How do wedecide where it goes first?
Second, third, what are thosedynamics? What does even the
pavement look like? You know,real design questions. And I
respect the difference betweendesigners and artists. And I
(28:23):
think, you know, that'ssomething I don't want to
suggest that, like, artists are,should be doing what designers
are doing. But I do think,because they are different
disciplines, that there's a lot,there's an important crossover
that can happen, especially inthe early part of a process, for
(28:44):
example, to consider, like, evenif we just talk about pavement,
because I, as I mentionedearlier, thinking about like art
public art as meaning making inthe spaces, how do we use that
lens of meaning making to thinkabout what the pavement looks
like? So like, are thereopportunities to, for, for us to
(29:08):
kind of uncover story andhistory through the choice of
material? Are there symbols andemblems embedded in on the
ground? Are there do people getto submit things that are
integrated into the ground workitself? So these, this is kind
(29:30):
of the way that we start toblend art and design where the
designers might be saying likethis, really, this works, really
this material works really wellfor the climate we have here.
And you know, it emulates thenatural landscape, the the color
tones in the landscape, thegeometry, landscape, etc. And
(29:52):
then we might the artist teammight come in and say, yeah, and
then what if we recognize thatlike the video neighborhood
we're going through here wasredlined. And how do we bring
that into the way that we'rethinking about actually even
designing the pavement, or wherethe trail goes. So that's, I
(30:14):
guess, like a little snapshotinto how the artists team worked
with the, on a design team tocreate a Greenway. And and then
there are some other projects.
There's a memorial, or amonument that, Damon Davis,
who's honored on our team isreally leading. And that's to
(30:36):
commemorate Mill Creek Valley,which is a historic, really
thriving black neighborhood inSt. Louis, that was just
decimated by the imposition of ahighway build, which is not an
(30:58):
uncommon story. But maybe what'suncommon is to talk about it and
to spend like a lot of time,energy and money to create
artworks that allow people toengage in that history. And
especially for I mean, we are,this is such a racially divided
(31:20):
city, I don't have thestatistics, but like the,
there's this Stark line calledthe Delmar Divide that divides
the north side of the city,south side of the city. And the
like the median home incomes arejust so dramatically different
on across that line. The racialmakeup is so dramatically
(31:42):
different, the median income isso dramatically different. And
then you can look at the historyof disinvestment in the north
side, and the history ofredlining and see how, like,
very clearly policy racistpolicy has perpetuated the
racial inequities and racialinjustice in this city. So with
(32:04):
that context, to have a Greenwayproject that goes through, I
don't even I think it's like 20,something neighborhoods, I don't
know what number we're at now.
But a lot of neighborhoods thatgoes across this dividing line,
and that is now incorporatinginto it, a monument to a
(32:25):
redlined neighborhood is a bigdeal for the city. Because we
are a city that doesn't want totalk about racism. Again, we're
not alone in that. But we're acity that doesn't want to talk
about racism that was on a worldstage that featured how violent
(32:45):
our racism is, and we stilldon't want to deal with it. So
these artistic interventions,this Greenway, the Memorial
Project, is one of the ways thatwe hope to create a site in a
space to, to say, like this,this is our true, true history
(33:09):
or true identity, we want you toengage with it. And we want to
create a space where we think alot of different people can come
together and be with thishistory. And I think it's also
it requires a certain level ofskillfulness, to be able to
(33:29):
create sites that allow forpeople to interact in a lot of
different ways with somethingthat might be challenging. I was
just talking about this, that Ireally don't enjoy prescriptive
public space, where it's like,you come here and you like, it's
(33:51):
everything is designed for youto be in one way to interact
with the world with artwork andwith people in one way. That
still feels like oppression tome. I want a public space that
offers me options thatrecognizes that like, we live in
a dynamic multicultural,multiracial democracy. And
(34:14):
people are going to use thisspace in a lot of different
ways. And when I create thespace and when I bring in the
artworks, I am thinking of that,and I am building from that up
to the actual project. And Iguess the Greenway is at its
(34:36):
best trying to do that. I'm lessinvolved in it right now than I
was in the past. But I thinkwhen I was involved in it in the
past, that was the aspiration.
Stephanie Eche (34:50):
Can you talk a little bit about how you think
artists and cultural producerscan work with government?
Mallory Rukshana Nezam (34:59):
Sure. I believe that the simplest way to
put it is that artists arereally adept creative problem
solvers, government solvesproblems. What if they saw
problems more creatively? Andwith a bit more soul? That's the
(35:26):
core of it for me, I often hearand also believe that artists
are, okay, let me let me justsay government clearly has a
fractured relationship withcommunity. Pretty much all
communities. But there's aspectrum, like, you know, the
(35:48):
more marginalized the communityis, typically the more fractured
the relationship is, there'sdistrust, and there's a lot of
reason to have that distrust.
There have been some successfulcollaborations where artists
have been embedded inside ofgovernment and kind of been
like, at the helm of work, andbeen able to start to heal some
(36:09):
other relationships in the bondswith community. Again, I was
just talking about this withsomeone. And while I do believe
that that's possible, like thereis the the skillfulness of some
kinds of artistic practitionersthat have this ability to offer,
(36:30):
like the social intelligence andcultural awareness that I
unfortunately find uncommon ingovernment work, yet, I also get
quite, there's a yellow lightfor me, that comes up when we
(36:53):
think that artists can healgovernment, or that artists can
be a surrogate, the good thegood surrogate of government,
that, I think that the what Iwant to see is that deeper work
that artists can do to helpgovernment from the inside out,
(37:15):
actually help with a culturalshift inside of the institution,
that then should result inbetter community relationships
and a different way, a differentpractice of engaging with
community. So it's, it's sort ofsimilar to me is the same
(37:37):
approaches like bottom up,community work, it's kind of
bottom up. It's almost like anorganizational change
methodology, where it's like youreally change the folks on the
team, and the culture of theteam to change how the team
works outside of itself andengages with any other entity
(37:58):
outside of government. And Ihave seen that happen. I will
say like, the artists inresidence, Marcus young, who's
based in the Twin Cities area,he was in residence with the
city of St. Paul for a number ofyears. And then more recently
was the was the creativevitality fellow, something like
(38:19):
that. He was in residence withthe Minnesota Department of
Transportation. So it's at thestate level, it was the first of
two state level artists andresidents programs inside of
state government. And he willlike he talks a lot about how
(38:39):
the most profound change that hehas seen in all of his
residencies inside of governmentbodies, has been seeing staff
shift and seeing culture shift.
And that's really what he's mostfocused on as an artist in
residence. And I think that thatis the long slower, it takes a
(39:02):
lot more time. But I thinkthat's also where some of the
most profound results can befrom bringing artists and
cultural producers intogovernment. I would like to see
it at every level, the local tothe federal, and I would like to
(39:23):
see an artist in everydepartment and every agency and
I appreciate those that aretaking the risk to prototype
these.I believe that we need tobe thinking of them not as one
off, but as the new normal. Weneed to be funding them as such.
We need to be budgeting them assuch. And we need to be bringing
(39:47):
people onto teams to supportbuilding them. That's one of the
projects I'm working on rightnow with Amanda Lovelee who was
the city artists and residentsof the city of St Paul for seven
or so years, and now work somefor parks department for the
(40:09):
county, I think. And thenJohanna Taylor, who's a
researcher and academic at ASU.
And the three of us are workingto create what we're calling
care lab, ci, our lab, whichstands for civic artists and
residents, that is a projectthat will allow us to support
(40:32):
governments that are curiousabout setting these programs up,
we'll provide them with trainingwith coaching. And we'll also be
doing public speaking if, ifit's helpful for us to sing the
praises of these programs andshare the research that we've
been doing. So this is a bigpassion area of mine. And one of
the one of the ways that I thinkthis is different from a lot of
(40:56):
the other things that I touch isI think, like there's art,
there's art, that there'spowerful art that points to a
thing. So it's like, I would saya lot of my work that came out
of Ferguson was work that waspointing at something, it was
(41:16):
saying this thing needs tochange, this thing over here is
wrong, this thing over here isright, this thing over here is
beautiful, this thing over hereis ugly, it's pointing to the
thing. And then there is a wayof approaching art that it
really is the thing. So the sothe artist saying artists can
(41:37):
reform government, well, I'm notgoing to create a thing that
points to that I'm going to, I'mgoing to do that. The artwork is
the reform of government. Andit's kind of like a weird brain
thing to get there. But that'sreally what I'm excited about
right now.
Stephanie Eche (41:57):
Yeah, I really resonate with that, because
that's kind of how I feel likeI'm working with the private
sector, like, part of my art istrying to get them to understand
their responsibilities and beingequitable, and how they fund
projects. And just because it'sprivate funding, just because it
might be in a private spacedoesn't mean they can skirt away
from that. And they have reallylarge budgets, often. And so
(42:22):
figuring that out of like, wehave to be doing that work,
otherwise, it just won't change,it'll still be the same people
getting the same funding, doingmaybe different work that points
at the problem, or the solution,but isn't actually changing.
It's like, it's like preachingto the choir work like, and the
people who like it, like it. AndI think I see that a lot with
(42:43):
all of the Black Lives Matterprotests to like, and I'm sure
you've seen it, too, it's likethe Instagram post about the
thing, by like, a white womanartist in Canada, it's just
like, it's not that they can't,you know, it's not that they
can't support the movement, it'snot that they can't even you
know, make money off of theirartwork about it necessarily,
(43:05):
it's just that all the attentionstill goes to the same people.
And that isn't really solvingthe problems. Like even changing
who the attention goes to isn'tnecessarily solving, solving the
problem. So even just havingpeople of color artists isn't
necessarily solving the problemstoo. And so it's like, there's
like baby steps. And then likethe larger infrastructure
(43:27):
change, and it's really excitingthat you and others are like,
working like we're all likelittle crickets, like trying to
do the work while also likegetting paid. Because because I
feel like people don't want todo the work to it's like not,
you know, they say they do orthey might want to and then like
(43:47):
when it comes down to it, it islong and hard and-
Mallory Rukshana Nezam (43:51):
Very tiring.
Stephanie Eche (43:53):
Yeah, it's tiring.
Mallory Rukshana Nezam (43:54):
It's yeah, it's a lot of work. And I
and I, the crickets metaphor, Iam like, everyone has a
different entry point, you know,into this whole ecosystem of
change. And I just want toaffirm that the way that I'm
working is just where I thinkI'm called to be. and I see
other people call to otherplaces, and we need them there.
(44:17):
We need people to be justleaning into what they're called
to do as as part of this wholeconstellation of a better world.
Stephanie Eche (44:29):
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I wonder how you thought aboutbasically training government
workers to think like artists orto just be more creative as
(44:51):
opposed to bringing in someoneelse all the time because that
was something I saw when Iworked at Vornado and real
estate, it's like, if youactually can inspire a different
way of thinking among all of thepeople. And it you know, it
starts with individuals, thenyou don't need another entity to
come in, whether that's aconsultant or a single person or
(45:12):
whatever, you can just createthis. And obviously, I want more
artists to get paid to dothings. So that's always good.
But how have you thought aboutthe actual, like, inspiring
change among people who alreadywork in government?
Mallory Rukshana Nezam (45:28):
That is so key. There's this organizing
principle in like, communityorganizing, political
organizing, that's about youkind of you work yourself out of
a job, that's really the goal,you're creating the capacity for
people to do the thing that theydon't quite yet have the
(45:48):
capacity to do. So if you workin the realm of creativity, then
your work is to cultivate thecreative capacity of whomever
you're working with. Andultimately, work yourself out of
needing to be there. Asteriskartists do have specialty in
their artistic craft, right,that will always be you know,
(46:12):
unique to artists, I will say Ihave seen that transformation in
some of the teams that I'veworked with, with individual
people, that it's almost This isgoing to be really abstract, but
it's almost like I see aloosening in within them. Like,
if they were solid form, they'relike, the molecules have just
(46:35):
sort of loosened up a littlebit. And there may be more like
a gas or a liquid or somethinglike they're just the rigidity
is lessened. And so that offersthat offers them like a window
into their own curiosity, andinto quite questioning the way
that they're doing things. Onereally literal thing I've seen
(47:02):
be successful is to actuallytransform physically the
workspace to have creative tohave things that just engender
creativity, and spark ideas andmake you like, feel alive in the
physical space. So like, I'vebeen in some workspaces, where
there's a rotating exhibition inthe hallway, where they bring,
(47:28):
the whole team gets tocontribute ideas to like a new
mural that's going to be in theoffice that everyone feels that
they like, had a say in and theyfeel this this pride over. I
have you even done like, littlelike poetry things in offices,
and especially if people arereally directly engaged in it.
(47:51):
And it's not just like, plop it,and not, you know, just plop it
down there, that doesn't workthe best. But I do think that
that is one very specific waythat you can start to bring more
creativity into a team. Andyeah, I guess I can just say
(48:11):
that, like, I saw it happen inactually all of the non arts
teams that I've been a part of,and I've also seen people
connect to their own creativepractice, like if someone is in
more of an office job situation,but has a like, plays a
saxophone or something. I'veseen that bringing, like
(48:33):
constantly being in anenvironment where you have
someone asking them about artsand culture in their housing
project, that they started totalk to me more about playing
saxophone, and why the saxophoneis meaningful to them. And when
they started playing it, andlike, hey, do you want to check
out this, this album I made whenI was 16. And like most people
(48:56):
are creative and I think justlike having that, that another
creative practitioner around,you can also just ignite that
that you probably already havein yourself. And if you don't
have it, then I do think thatsome of these really simple
tools like placing art inside ofworking environments. It's
(49:19):
probably not super measurable,but I definitely see it changing
the way people are just curiousand creative. I think you can
also infuse it into meetings,totally rethinking meetings, is
a whole nother thing that wedon't have time to talk about.
But there's another like reallytangible way .
Stephanie Eche (49:40):
We could do so many more follow up
conversations about thesethings. Because these are like
this is like my, what I thinkabout all the time and it's it's
like you've seen so many ofthese things happen also in in
real time, like it's notimaginary, it actually works.
So, yeah. Is there anythingthat's in inspiring you right
(50:00):
now any books you're readinganything you're listening to?
Mallory Rukshana Nezam (50:06):
Hmm, this is very simple, but just so
much of my creativity comes fromjust public space and being in
community and the fact thatwe've opened back up in a lot of
places due to vaccinations, thatis igniting my creativity again.
(50:30):
So just like vaccinations aremaking are inspiring me. I was
watching the Small Axe seriesfor a while. And that was I
think it's Alexander McQueen. Mysaying that right? Or is that a
different McQueen? No, that'sthe fashion designer Steve
McQueen. Alexander McQueen isinspiring, too, I guess. But,
(50:55):
um, McQueen, the filmmakersSmall Axe series has been such a
beautiful blend of like, musicand cinematography, and
storytelling, and it featureslike different corners of the
black community in London. Andit and it's, to me, it's one of
(51:19):
the ways that artists revealthat the ways in which we tend
to approach minority communitiesis monolithic. And this series
is telling all of these dynamicstories from all these different
like, curves and corners andcrevices of a very dynamic
(51:42):
community of people of Africandescent in London. So that's
been really cool. I've beenreading a lot of poetry Ada
Limon inspires me, women ofcolor poets, and specifically
(52:03):
her work. Yeah, I'll leavethose.
Stephanie Eche (52:10):
Well, I'll share links to everything that we
talked about, and everythingthat's inspiring you in the show
notes so people can take a look,thank you so much for sharing
and thank you for doing thisinterview. It was so nice to
talk to you more about this. Ifeel like we've had so many
conversations about thesethings. But it's so nice to
hear, especially about thegovernment work and how your
(52:30):
practice has shifted, but isstill very much an art practice.
And I'm excited for people tohear this because I think people
think of artists and they thinkof like one very specific thing,
even when they're funding it.
And so just understanding that,it's, it's not like always paint
on canvas. It can be lots ofdifferent things.
Mallory Rukshana Nezam (52:54):
Yeah. It can be so many things. And I
think we're going to keeprefining and redefining that
forever. I have one, there's oneartist David Davis that I
mentioned that I just reallylook up to, and I've had the
privilege of working with thathe calls himself a post
(53:16):
disciplinary artist. I'm like,there's like interdisciplinary,
there's multidisciplinary,there's transdisciplinary
there's post disciplinary, Imean we're just gonna keep
refining and yeah, just likeredefining what the artistic
practice is, and then what thatmeans to collaborate in
different spaces. I mean, it'sjust kind of a forever changing
(53:36):
thing, which is a lot of what'sfun about it.
Stephanie Eche (53:41):
Thank you so much.
Mallory Rukshana Nezam (53:43):
Yeah, go team yellow.
Stephanie Eche (53:46):
Thanks for listening to this episode of
First Coat. If you liked thispodcast, please leave a review.
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@firstcoatpodcast or@distillcreative. First Coat is
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