Massimo Mongiardo on Developing a Personal Style, Mural Designs for Clients, and Influences

Episode Transcript
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Stephanie Eche (00:02):
Welcome to First Coat. Where we explore public
realm art, how it's made and whyit matters. I'm your host,
Stephanie Eche, an artist andentrepreneur based in Brooklyn,
New York. I run DistillCreative, where I curate and
produce site-specific artprojects for real estate
developers. I focus on creatingmore equitable and inclusive
projects and I want to get moreexposure for the artists and

(00:23):
developers doing this work. Thisweek on First Coat, we have
Massimo Mongiardo. Massimo isbased in Miami, Florida, but we
met while he was working on aproject here in New York City.
He's done various murals acrossthe country and launched an Etsy
store selling his prints earlierthis year. I spoke with Massi
about how to develop a personalstyle, his process for

(00:43):
researching and developing muraldesigns for clients, how he
makes money and what'sinfluencing him right now.
Here's our conversation.
Thank you so much for takingtime to be interviewed. I'm
really excited to interview youtoday. Because I feel like
you're, I love your work, but Ithink you're one of the first,
maybe only, people who I'vespoken to on the job who was

(01:05):
just so open and has beenwilling to share so much
information. So I reallyappreciate that, particularly
because street art and muralsare such a male dominated thing.
It was just so refreshing tohave someone send me some links,
you know, and just open thatdoor.

Massimo Mongiardo (01:20):
Yeah, I started doing it like two and a
half years ago, now, so it's sorof still new to me and I think
it's exciting to meet people andshare and stuff, still, so I'
not jaded, don't think I'm cooor something for being, you kno
, doing it.

Right. Can you share just who you are and what
you do?

Yeah, my name is Massimo Mongiardo. I work as
an illustrator and muralist on alot of different projects. I
started off doing branding andthen it kind of shifted to
illustration, which is sort of,its what I went to school for,
and I'm way more into drawingand then probably like five
years ago, one of the brandingprojects I got asked to put some
of the illustrations up on thewall and that was my first

(01:59):
painting experience and thennothing happened for probably
three more years. And then Istarted to develop like a really
distinct personal style and thenit started to lead to, like I
got one mural that asked forthat and after that it was sort
of like I had broken through oneof the walls and I started to
get a lot more work after that.

I was listening to your interview on The Process
podcast.

Oh yeah, that was fun.

I love how you talked about your development of
style, because I totally agree.
That's something that,rightfully so, artists obsess
over, and particularly whenyou're doing public work. Do you
want to share just some tips onstyle development?

Yeah, I mean, that was something I was always
worried about, as you know, aslong as I've been drawing. I
mean, when I was really young, Ididn't really even know that it
kind of went that way, but Istarted to notice it as a
teenager and definitely incollege, some of the students
had really cool, really strongstyles and it didn't really

(02:55):
happen for me until like, acouple of years, after I moved
to New York, after college. Istarted doing a lot of
consistent work for a coupledifferent people. And it was
sort of, not because theprojects were calling for
distinct style, it was because Iwas making so much work and I
started to develop a processmore than anything. And then

(03:18):
there was just a couple thingsthat sort of led to it, like I
started tracing sketches,instead of sketching again, and
there were a couple times whereI would hit points in the trace,
where I would be like, oh, thatkind of looks good like that,
without the faces and, or with,you know, with only this much
information and without, and soit was kind of just sort of

(03:41):
pursuing, paying attention more,while I was working, to what I
felt looked good and then itjust sort of, it's always
changing still, but it's likeyou, you're kind of like, you
start to narrow in on thissmaller frequency that gets more
and more dialed and then you canpull old tricks in that you used
to use and but you have thisstronger process. And so it's

(04:04):
like anything you draw or paintstarts to sort of look like your
own, because you're just, you'reso much more familiar with
making so much more work.
That's, for me, how I think ithappened just by producing a lot
of stuff and getting a ton ofpractice in.

Yeah, I think that's one thing I really
appreciate about when we'vetalked and when I've heard you
talk to other people about styledevelopment. It's that you can't
really skip the hard part ofjust doing it.

Yeah.

Its doing it over and over and over again.

I mean, I, there were, there were so many
times where I would be like,okay, this is how I'm going to
do it. I'd look at like, youknow, a Paul Pope comic or
something, and I'd be like,okay, quick gestural ink
strokes, that's what I'm goingto do from now on, or I'd look
at like Ashley Wood and be like,I'm gonna be a painter and then,

(04:51):
it wasn't really about that, itwas more like just drawing a lot
and making a lot of work. That'ssort of how it happened.

In that interview, too, I heard how you
were one of those kids who justdrew a lot when you were little?
Yeah.
Do you remember the first thingyou drew? Or what's your
earliest memory of creatingsomething?

The first, the earliest thing I can
remember is a drawing of mydad's cat from when I was really
young, and he still has it andit was sort of, I think it was
just big thing for mostly myparents, who were like, oh, my
god, he drew the cat and I was areally, really small kid. And so
that was sort of the first,first one and then you know, and
really elementary school, reallyyoung kids stuff, there was some

(05:32):
self portraits, too, where itwas more like I was seeing my
parents react to these things Iwas making and that's sort of
what the memory is more thananything. And I think that's
sort of why I was encouraged tokeep pursuing that and my
parents are both really intoart. My dad makes furniture and

(05:52):
we always had art books andstuff around. But it was those
couple things, the cat and thefirst self portrait and that my
parents were just so reactive,that I think in my young, young
brain, I felt like this is whatI do. You know, so that was sort
of it. But that said, I'velearned that talent is
overrated, and practice iseverything.

Did you always want to do work in public space?
Or how did that come about?

No, no, it wasn't like a goal of mine from
a long time ago, I've alwaysjust kind of been into drawing
and rendering and, you know,cool illustrations, like comic
books, and, you know, anime andvideo game art and stuff like
that, since I was a kid. And soit was never specifically that,

(06:40):
but then I did the one five orsix years ago, where it was just
the things I had illustrated fora food menu painted on the wall
and the feeling of doing thatwas so much better than, you
know, just drawing to me. It waslike, oh, this is some next
level, physical, you're, likedrawing, for me is a lot of it

(07:03):
is just feeling good, and thisline feels good and that line
feels good and it's like, I'mgonna keep chasing this rhythm.
And so painting is just like awhole other thing when you're
going large scale like that. Andthen through Instagram, I just
started to discover artists whothey weren't really graffiti
artists, really, it was morelike they were just making

(07:23):
beautiful huge paintings. LikeAxel Void and I think he's
called I release and there's abunch of street artists who
paint almost classical stuffwith just sort of a hint of this
street art look. So you canreally bend it in a lot of ways
and giant walls can takeanything that a canvas can take
to so that was sort of, I think,through Instagram is where I was

(07:45):
like, that's kind of what I wantto do. I kind of want to try
that, because I think I could doit, you know?

Have you enjoyed doing outdoor murals?

Oh, yeah.
It's, I mean, it's hard. It'salways like this, it's hard in a
lot of different ways thanregular drawing is because it
takes so much physical work andtrying to wrap your head around
how you're going to scale it up.
I've scaled things up so manydifferent ways, and even when I
use the same technique on adifferent wall, it's like a

(08:14):
different experience every timebecause sometimes it's really
hot, sometimes it's reallywindy, sometimes it rains, which
sucks, but yeah, I mean, it'sstill, it's like this whole
different experience where atthe end of it, like you, some
days you're kind of chasing theweather, making sure that you
get it done on time, but thatmeans that you're climbing up

(08:35):
and down a ladder all day and bythe end of it, you're actually
sore. So I mean, I like thereally physical part about it
too, but outdoor stuff, yeah, isthe hardest, I think.

Being in elements.

Yeah, exactly. The first one I did
was, the first outdoor one Idid, it was so windy. And I was
using pounce transfer and it wasjust, the paper was tearing off
the wall and stuff and it'sjust, was so intimidating, but
it worked.

Can you talk a little bit about the public
interaction with your work and

oh, yeah!

How that influences new work?

A lot of times, I think when when I got
commissioned people were sort oflooking to, the first couple,
especially as people werelooking for that sort of where
they're like, oh, now I realizethis building is a local butcher
shop or something like that, youknow, or it's like this kind of
makes sense and so, but at thesame time, I'd like people to
first of all think it lookscool, but then also kind of

(09:32):
understand what's going on andread the story, and it's sort of
like they're like, oh, yeah,that's sort of, that is how
that's done. The piece I did forEssex Street Market, which never
turned out to be a mural, but itjust shows how food gets from
the farm to the market, and someof it goes to warehouse
literally first before it goesanywhere. So it's like oh yeah,

(09:53):
I never thought about it likethat. And I mean there's been a
couple pieces by other artiststhat strongly influenced that
thinking, and I've just stuckwith it for so long.

Like the storytelling aspect?

Yeah. I don't know if you've ever been to
well, you probably have, theNatural History Museum in New
York has these murals when youwalk in, and they're just, it's
just stacked information. Andthere's a couple American
artists, I'm trying to think ofthe guy's name right now that I
always reference. There'sanother Italian comic book
artist who did this history ofthe world peace, where it's

(10:26):
stacked from the very beginningup until now, and it's super
violent and gnarly, but just theway that he told that story was
a huge click for me where I waslike, I can sort of draw figures
in that way, I can use this as away to tell my own stories that
I know about. And so I thinkit's, I think being able to,
it's almost like reading in aweird way. It's spelled out for

(10:50):
you. Because I don't want peopleto have to think too hard when
they look at my work, but it'sthe sort of thing where you look
at it all at once, and then youzero in on the details and then
maybe you catch some metaphorslater.

How much do you, knowing that you do work that
way, what kind of research doyou do when you're working on a
new piece?

Well, it depends on what it is. Usually,
sometimes there's no points ofreference, at all, but usually
it helps if there's like one forthe, like the Foster Sundry
mural, which was my firstoutdoor one, they just wanted
something that said, you know,we're a butcher shop and we sell
cheese and blah, blah, blah. AndI thought, instead of pointing

(11:29):
it at, just at the food, it waslike, well, the process, the
people, the work, all that is acooler angle. And so I start
checking how foods made, Istart looking up their farmers,
I start finding specific historyto those places and seeing if
there's cool imagery that I canrip that has meaning. I try not

(11:49):
to put too much filler stuff inmy work, it's usually always
referencing something. Yeah, itdepends what it is. There was
this Tiki Bar/sushi restaurantin Boston that I did a mural for
Right, and pushing you to justdraw new things.
and it was sort of a similarthing, where they didn't know
what they wanted, but they knewthat they didn't want any,

(12:10):
iconic imagery, like Japanesestuff, or Tiki stuff or anything
like that, because they're notJapanese and they're not part of
Tiki culture, but this is justthe food that they're making and
they don't want people to getthe wrong idea. So I focused on
the ingredients, and the waythose things are made. So, like
fishing for sushi and sugar canefor rum. Those things for me

(12:34):
have really cool images. Like,you know, guys with machetes,
chopping down sugar cane thatsort of, it's like, how can I
hit this from an angle where I'mgonna have, be able to excel at
what I'm painting and drawingand it's not, it's not a cop
out? You know what I mean? Itreally does have to do with what
the concept is.

(12:55):
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, sugar cane,that was new. Yeah, boats,
skyline, all those things. Imean, it's, I try to get new
stuff from every project andusually you do. That's the cool
thing.

Are you an artist? Submit your portfolio at
distillcreative.com/artist.
You'll get on our DistillDirectory, our artists database
and be considered for upcomingart commissions.
Do you have any tips for anartist who does, I guess, maybe
more works on canvas or works onpaper who's looking to do

(13:33):
outdoor murals?

Yeah, if you want to do one, try and find
someone who will let you do oneor, you know, enter a contest.
The way I got my first one, Ientered a contest and I took
work that I already had andmocked it up on their wall and
just sort of was like this,something like this, you know,
and please choose me. And it wasreally intimidating, but I think

(13:57):
I've mentioned this to youbefore that, it's sort of, you
sort of end up doing exactlywhat you do on paper, or canvas
anyway, even if it's gigantic.
Obviously, you got to get on aladder or lift or whatever, but
you sort of navigate the piecein the same way where it's like,
I put the sketch down and then Iput the shading down and then I
do the line work to clean it upand then I'm done. It's sort of,

(14:21):
it's surprising how much itreflects how you work small
scale, that's for me, and thebest way to figure it out is to
try it, there's no, there's noother way.

What kind of paint do you like to use most on
a wall?

Honestly, I like using house paint.

As opposed to acrylic or latex?

Yeah, it's kind of watery, so you can get a
lot of light coverage with it,but it doesn't drip off the
brush constantly, unless it'shot out. I found that I've used
other paints that are so muchmore difficult, which are
supposed to be so much better,but for me, for what I do, for
the amount of color I use, thosekinds of things, it's the
smoothest flattest, not thecheapest, but it's still it's

(15:05):
really easy to get house paintin a lot of different colors,
too. So, and my work is very, atleast so far, the mural work is
very, you know, maybe six colorsthat are really identifiable.
And so I can just buy thosethings and add white if I want
to make it lighter like that. Soit's not super complex, but
yeah, house paint.

How have you been doing this year with, I
mean, I know a lot of artists,their projects have just been
put in hold indefinitely. ButIve also noticed that your Etsy
page has blown up. Can you talka little bit about transitioning
and doing commissions?

I was really surprised actually because I
just checked on it right beforeI was like, wow, I have al

Oh my gosh. What was the job?
these followers and ratings anstuff. Yeah, actually, in th
beginning it was a littlescary. I had landed, I moved to
Miami but then I landed a job inNew York in January that was
ike dream job and I moved uphere in January but th
n Coronavirus hit and I left bak to Miami because I didn't have

(16:04):
a place.

I'm working for an interior design company,
designing wall graphics, murals,but they're just installed. I
don't have to paint but I designthem and then get the
manufacturer to put them in.

Are they branded pieces or is it your art?

Yeah, it's like I have to appease the
client, but it's still, as faras office job, it's the coolest
one I've ever had.

Is this a company you can share? I'm so
curious.

It's, the company I work for is Ted Moudis
Associates, its an interiordesign company. It's, I don't
know, it's not like I'm workingfor, what's it called? Seen or
something like a mural companylike that. It's more like they
started a branding department intheir interior design company as
a different way to get projects.
Wall graphics, for offices, Iguess are sort of exploding

(16:57):
right now.
Like techoffices want really cool, bea

Yeah.
tified spaces and so, so I was lt go and then brought back on
So, I've been busy, honesty, I have a lot of, when Cor
navirus started, I sold the prins on Etsy and donated a lot of t
e money that I was making offhat. Wasn't a ton, but it was e
That's really interesting.
ough for me to be okay and pleny to give away. A lot of people

(17:20):
that I've been, I've ironicaly been doing a lot of logos rec
ntly, which was something tht I tried to get away from wh
n I started doing murals, buthe people who are coming to me
are sort of just looking forhatever I want to do for them.
It's not this difficult back anforth kind of thing. But a lot
f smaller businesses, like'm doing something for a
utcher shop in Jersey City righnow and they just said that it

(17:42):
s been the craziest season tey've ever had and theyre only
pen three or four days a week anthey have never been busier b
cause people don't really want tgo to the supermarket and the
want to buy local stuff. And evryone's talking about a mea
shortage but they are sourcig from local farmers and so it'
not a problem and, yeah. Samehing, another guy in Chica
o, a baker, he said he had thcraziest season ever and

(18:05):
they're trying to open a commissry and he needs a logo for that
So I've been busy with a loof projects for small operati
ns that have been doing really wll, ironically, during all this.
Yeah.
That makes a lotof sense, though. So, my fiance
is actually a trademark lawyerand his business has been fine.

(18:29):
It's kind of, it's really weird.

Right, like people are opening new stuff.

Yeah, people have ideas and they have money,
somehow, to start new businessesand they need a trademark.

Yeah, it's crazy. I would have never
expected it. It was pretty scaryin the beginning. Like I said, I
got let go from the New Yorkthing but it was, I was sort of
like, well, I have painting, Ihave a couple painting
commissions and we'll see whathappens and now I'm just busy
again. Like real busy. I don'tknow, I feel lucky, obviously.

Right. Can you talk a little bit about the
commissions and how that processhas been working for you?

Yeah, it's taken a really long time to get
where I'm at now with justtalking to people about money
and how to manage clients andstuff and it can be really
difficult because I've caughtmyself in the past sort of
getting greedy when I don't havea lot of money and asking for a
lot for people who I should knowdon't really have it and then

(19:30):
the other way around where Idon't ask enough. And so I've
tried to kind of just make moreflat rates that aren't
ridiculous, but aren't toocheap. I should probably still
raise some of them sometimes,but it's worked pretty well, if
I say well this costs thismuch, take it or leave it. So

(19:50):
for like, facade illustrations,I have a flat rate, for oil
paintings, I have a flat rate,logos too, now. Just sort of
like everybody gets the sameprice unless they're like, I
just can't do that, and then I'mlike, well, maybe I can do this
instead for that amount, so, butI try not to get greedy, because

(20:12):
it usually ends up with meending up with no work. Because
people are just kind of go coldor they think it's ridiculous
or, the thing is, though, Imean, I have made a point that
everybody has to pay, that'ssomething different. I used to
do a lot of free work. And Ijust, I don't know if this is

(20:34):
the way I'm going to make money,even if I'm busy, it doesn't, I
don't know when I'm gonna be notbusy again, it might be next
week. So I have to ask everybodyto pay me, basically. So yeah,
any advice I would give, it'sjust make sure you get paid.
Unless it's for some crazycelebrity or something. Even
then, I was talking to a friendof mine who I did commission for

(20:56):
work for him like five or sixyears ago. And he paid me, he
does analog synthesizers, and Idid an illustration on the front
of one of the faceplates. Andon, actually on the back of some
of the PCP boards, where it'ssort of like an Easter egg, but
like six years later, he, someguy in Hong Kong noticed one of

(21:21):
them and reached out to me for alogo, which is something I'm
working on now. And I wastalking to my friend about it
and he was like, see, this isthe problem with doing work for
exposure, because maybe oneperson hits you up for like a
$400 project five years fromnow. That's been my experience,
for the most part. My followersat this point go up, no matter

(21:44):
what I do. And they're going upslowly, and they don't go up
much faster. Like maybe I'll get30 or 100 from a big post, but
it doesn't mean I'm getting tonsof work. It's never really added
up that way.

Right, it doesn't correlate.

Yeah, and what Ive realized...

Youre talking about Instagram followers,
right?

Yeah, yeah, what I've realized is the work
just has to be good enough. Youhave to make sure that you're
putting out good work that youthink is good, and that people
can't deny is good. So, I focusmore on making my work better,
and charging for everything.
Because, otherwise it justdoesn't, you're going to get
followers if your works goodand not everybody's gonna buy
stuff. No, that's not how itworks. So yeah, that's, that's

(22:29):
been my experience.

Those are really good tips, I think. Just focus
on the work and...

Yeah.

Charge for your work. I mean, it seems pretty
obvious, but I do think a lot ofartists...

I did a ton of free work when I was, you
know, from like, 20 to, 20 to 30years old. I did a ton,
obviously, all the firstprojects I did in the beginning
were free, when I was just outof college, I needed a
portfolio. And as soon as youget one published piece, it's

(23:03):
like, oh, yeah, I did somethingfor Hopps Skateboards. They did
something, they trusted me to dothat, you guys can, too, you
know? So, in the beginning,yeah, maybe, but eventually,
you're going to start gettinggood enough where you deserve to
get paid.

Yeah, don't do free work. No one should do free
work.

Yeah, exactly.

Thats like the number one thing I hear when I
ask people.

Exactly. I mean, it's only okay, when you
need an example. You don't, youdon't have any murals in your
portfolio and you need to doone, get someone to let you do
one. And even then if they're,if they have a budget, take it,
you know, but other than that,exposure and all that I've never
had any crazy, like I'm blowingup because of this, you know?

Can you share a little bit about how you might
give a quote for a publicproject? And if that's changed
over time, also.

Yeah. In the beginning, I had no idea what to
do, obviously. I would just kindof throw numbers out there and
be like, oh, well, one this bigcosts this much and its a big
one and 1500 bucks, I don'tknow. And then a couple people I
worked for told me I wasn'tcharging enough, even though
they would still just pay mewhatever I threw out there. And
so I started charging, like 50bucks an hour and keeping track

(24:19):
of how long it took to do allthis stuff. And then I started
adding up the materials and thetravel and stuff like that and
was sort of like, ah, this is aton of work. Because I don't
know, I mean, when you spend aweek and a half on something,
like there was just mural at theEssex Crossing, the Grand Street

(24:40):
Settlement Community Center.
It's like, I got paid fairly forthat project, but it took me
seven 12 hour days to finish it.
And at the end, the hourlywasn't that good, but it doesn't
matter, I got a good, and youhave to count all the hours that
goes into the sketching, too andthe planning and all that so,
from concept phase to finishedpainting, I usually quote out by

(25:04):
the hour and make it like a flatrate and then split up the
payments. So one to start, onewhen the sketch is finalized,
and one when I'm done painting.

That makes sense.

Yeah.

I know other artists charge by square foot,
but they basically have figuredout that number based on what,
how much time it typically takesto do all of those things.

Yeah, I think it's a similar sort of thinking.
The reason I don't do that issome murals are way bigger that
take me much less time.

Got it, okay.

So, it kind of all depends on the design.
Like I did something for Amazon,recently, that was, there's this
Amazon mural and this dig inmural that were very similar
complexity, kind of limitedcolor, and the walls are much
bigger than something I did forthis, the tiki bar I was talking
about in Boston, but that hadmuch more complex color, so it

(25:56):
was like two or three days morework.

Yeah. What's the best experience you've had doing
a mural and what's the worstexperience you've had?

Oh, man. Let me think, the best one was, I
think, last summer, or lastwinter, feels like summer
because I was down here. Butlast winter, during Art Basel, I
did this long, sequence piece oflike someone running and
jumping, and taking all theirclothes off, losing all their
clothes, as they were runningand jumping. That was in a

(26:25):
school on the side of a gym. Asit progressed, the kids were
just like, freak out. And, andthen there were a lot of mural
artists there, too. So theywould come through, and it's
really encouraging to talk tothem and see, see their work
just being, just unfolding too.
And so you get to, you get tosee a lot of different people's
processes and meet the communityreally quickly and it's just

(26:48):
kind of a crazy vibe, becauseeveryone was trying to finish
before Sunday, before schoolstarts again and, but the energy
there with all the artists thereand all the kids there was like,
it was just like rolling everyday. I don't know, it was really
fun. Oh, so that's a good one. Abad one, none of them have been
terrible. I guess, there was onerecently where I had to use a

(27:12):
lift on an incline and so thelift, there was a ramp that goes
up to the door, basically. SoI'd have to drive the lift up
and they don't go up if they'reat a, on an angle.

Right.

And I had, so I had to take two by fours and
like shim the back wheels, so itwould be flat when I drove it up
the ramp and then I would climbup and raise it like 20 feet and
it's like rocking.

Oh my gosh.

That's kind of what they do. And it was sort
of, kind of my first realexperience was one of them like
that and it was just, the muralhad to be done because the rain,
rain was coming the next day andI couldn't really reach all the
way because there was an awning.
So, I would raise the lift up,and then it had this extension
that went out, so I would pushthe extension out as far as it
would go. And then, so I'mwalking out on this extension

(28:00):
that's not, it's not above thelift, it's just floating and
rocking and, and it's almostraining and it's windy. So, that
was just kind of scary. But I'msure compared to other artists
experience, it's not even thatbad. But for me, it was one of
my first times up on one ofthose things and it just felt
like a really janky, makeshiftway to get it done, but I got it

(28:23):
done. It came out pretty well.
It was just sort of intimidatingand it didn't feel right. You
know?
Yeah.

Yeah.
There's a lotwith lifts that is, it's really
scary and you have to be carefuland do it correctly. But to your
point, sometimes there are thesesituations where you're just
doing whatever you can to get itdone.

I just, the guy, you know, I had been paid
and I had to get paid for therest and the weather was turning
bad and I didn't want to keepworking on it for more days. I
didn't want to fix mistakes, soI just kept moving. And it was
really, I was just nervous thewhole time. You know, which is

(29:05):
unpleasant, but it worked outfine. It came together.

Yeah, I'm glad you got down in one piece.

It was terrible.

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Do you have any tips for clientswho want to hire mural artists
for projects and some thingsthey could think through? Like
make sure there's not anincline. I mean, I honestly
commissioned someone for aclient piece and I wasn't there

(29:40):
and I found out, basicallyduring install, that they
couldn't, same situation withthe lift but there was no way to
make it work.

Yeah.

Somehow the artist just made it work without
the lift, basically. Or I mean,I don't really want to know what
she did to make it work. But Ifelt so bad not knowing that,
right?

Yeah, I would think as a client, looking for
an artist and thinking about aspace that you want painted,
just think about, is this thebest place for a mural, because
I mean, what I painted was kindof cool in the end, but it was
really difficult to make itwork. It was like an awning that

(30:20):
framed up the entrance toBrooklyn Commons down on
Flatbush. And it was just reallyhard to get information on there
and figure out a goodcomposition and then the lift
thing. There was supposed to beno awning, but something didn't
happen in time. So yeah, thosekinds of technical things where
it's like, before you hiresomeone, choose a good spot,
make sure it's very visible andaccessible by the artist and if

(30:45):
you figure it's going to need alift, try and have that all
sorted out for them. Because,it's not really expensive, but
to have the artist handle thatadds stress, because I ended up
having to handle it last minute,which was difficult and we were
trying to get a you know,certificate of insurance from
the landlord and those kinds ofthings are really, really
annoying to deal with. And soit's whatever you can do to, if

(31:08):
you want the mural and you wantit to happen, do whatever you
can to let the artist come inand paint and do what they're
good at. Because a lot of times,I didn't have experience getting
a COI, I didn't, I just feltsort of like I was failing half
the time, you know, so if youhave those things in place where

(31:29):
you can make that call and makethat move, it makes, it just
makes it easier for everybody,because it's not, if you have a
secretary who can call therental company, do that. It's so
much easier than the artistdoing it, you know. Those types
of things where it's just like,does it make sense to have a
mural here or how can I makesure hes set up because the
jobs have been really smooth,like the Tiki Bar I keep talking

(31:51):
about in Boston, I got there andthe construction workers were
not touching the wall, they justprimed it and they were just
moving around it and there,there was a mask on the floor,
so I didn't get any paint on thefloor, so those guys didn't have
to clean it up and it's justlike, the painters who paint the

(32:11):
walls are probably better atmasking than I am. You know what
I mean? So those kinds ofthings, where it's like, let
each person do what they're goodat. That's the best advice I can
give. Because otherwise, it'sjust so much harder for
everybody and I'm asking amillion questions like, where do
I find a ladder and the blah,blah, blah, slows everything
down.

Right. And especially if there already are
those resources, like if there'salready someone setting up
something for a different,similar situation.

Yeah.

I find this happening a lot with clients
were they could really just usethe same resources for different
things, but instead, it's like12 different people asking the
same questions.

Yeah, exactly. It's better to have all
that stuff done up front, youknow? There's been times where
it's like, then, you know, I getsuper frustrated and then all
the client, all of a sudden theclient checks in on me to see if
I need anything and I'm alreadyheated and stressed. And so, but
then I'm like, oh, he's cool,alright, cool. You know, it's

(33:13):
just, it's better to like, Imean, I usually act really needy
in the beginning and be like, isthere gonna be a ladder there?
Are you sure I can get there?
Because it's just been a coupletimes where I'm like, I don't
know how I'm gonna do this.

Yeah and then there's, like in situations that
I've been working on, there'salso artists who want to do
everything themselves and don'twant, they have their own method
of how they get their ladder orhow they whatever, so it's like,
yeah.

Yeah, totally, totally. I mean, some
people are just set up, likepeople who have been doing it
for a while probably havecertificates of insurance and
they have their own businessthat's specifically only for
murals that charges all thatshit, you know, so it's not one

(33:59):
size fits all, but my bestexperiences is when I just get
in there and paint and leave.
That's the best for me.

Yeah, I think clients just being aware of
asking the questions up frontbefore they expect to have

Yeah. Are yo gonna need a lift? Are you gonn
something done.
need a ladder? Because I don'teven have a ladder. I want to ge
one, but I don't have one andI don't have any mural pr
jects in the pipeline. So probaly not going to buy one right n
w, you kn

Well, and if youre going out of town, you're
not going to bring your own.

Yeah. Like I had to fly out to Seattle to do
the one for Amazon, obviously, Ican't bring certain stuff. But
we had that conversation, it'sanother good example where I was
pretty well set up. I was like,I have a projector, I don't need
one. I'm sure you guys have abunch, you know, but I don't

(34:50):
need one.

You've done a bunch of different things as far
as your career.

Yeah.

Is there anything that you wish you had
done or you wish you hadn't donelooking back now.

Yeah, I mean, I sort of, I wish I had started
taking this all more seriouslyearlier. I mean, things sort of
happen, life has a way offiguring itself out in this
weird way, for better or worse,it just always kind of ends up
you never know what's gonnahappen, but in college, I leaned

(35:24):
too much on skills I had builtwhen I was a teenager, and was
like, you know, I was like, oneof the better kids in high
school, one of the better kidswhen I got to college. And then
by the time I left college, Iwas like, not the best. So,

What do you mean, specifically? Like in your
drawing skills, or in yourstyle?

Yeah, lik drawing skills, thinking abou
what I want to do with it, hoto finish project, where am I
taking this. I was very all oer the place. And it started
o kind of crystallize a lttle bit when I left, when I go
out of school more, becausewas just like, oh, I can just
raw whatever now again, ad I started, I reached ou
to skateboard companies and dd some skateboard graphics f

(36:05):
r free. And that was reallyxciting and things like t
at, but it would be like, you kow, I would do one project a mo
th, maybe, maybe like two a yea, sometimes it was really slo
. And I would sometimes draw,I would go sit outside and
raw, I would go to the human figre, but it wouldn't be that o
ten. And then, when I moved toew York, I had to start working

(36:28):
n restaurants because I was justdesperate for money. And I s
arted going to figure drawing casses a lot more again, and s
arted shopping around for interships and I just was like, I got
a throw myself at this again. Anit's like three years had gon
by or something, and I sortof wasn't paying attention
And then finally, at a certainpoint, after a couple of g

(36:49):
aphic design jobs, I got anrt studio when I was like, maybe
25, and that was when everythingit was just like, oh, just, I'l
just go to the studio beforegoing to Momofuku for work, or
raft, I think it was actually araft at that time. And so I w
uld, I started developing a habiof going, and I wish I had

(37:12):
ust done that for all theime. Because it was like I ha
these two periods when I was ayoung teenager, high school kid
where drawing was what I did imy spare time. And then I sta
ted, you know, got in, goteally into skateboarding and p
rtying and whatever and iwasn't as focused. And then it
kind of came back later againwhen I was like, 25, 24/25. A
d I wish I had stayed kind ofocused, because you can ma

(37:35):
e a lot of progress in a year, yu know. And it just, I said it
efore, it's like, you don't getanywhere without producing wor
. So the question was, whato I regret? And what was the
other half of it?

What do you wish you had done?

Yeah, I just wish I had taken it more
seriously earlier. But now,now's the time where I'm able to
remind myself that I said that awhile ago. And so, if I want to
take a painting class, and Ifeel lazy about it, I'm sort of
like, my attitudes a littledifferent now, where I'm like,
no, do it now.

Right.

You know, because when you're 40, you're
gonna be like, I should havelearned how to paint portraits
when I was 33, you know?

Why do you think that happens, because the same
exact thing happened to me whereit's like, I was doing stuff, I
mean, even in my early 20s, evenafter college, I mean, college
is kind of a weird thing for me,but it's like, I was starting to
do really cool things and then Ijust got like, sucked into
survival mode. I don't even knowwhat it is, because it's not
like I had a family.

Yeah, I don't know, I think it had to do with
just wanting to hang out with myfriends and make new friends in
New York and I didn't reallyknow what to do after college, I
didn't feel like I had made anykind of decision. I think maybe
I should have taken a year tothink about like, what do I want
to go to college for, maybe Iwould have gone for painting,

(39:04):
instead of illustration. And Ijust didn't, it was just like I
was on the path that everyoneelse was on, like finish high
school, you go to college, yougraduate college, you go to
work, I don't know. And so itwas sort of like, I didn't think
a lot, as much as I do now, as Idid back then. I'm, I usually

(39:25):
try and I've realized that doingdifficult things kind of helps
you in the end, like taking ahard painting class or working
out or practicing all the time.
Those things take a long time,but they end up being more
satisfying.

Yeah and I think from some of the things you've
said to just, taking the classor learning the skill, or I feel
like at least when I wasyounger, I just kind of assumed
these people can do these thingsand these people can't, when
really its that these peopleactually learned and practice
and these people didnt.

Yeah, same. I feel like it was another thing
too, where a lot of people werelike oh, you're just super talen
ed, as a kid, and you know, I cn't draw a stick figure, it's l
ke these, you start to realize i's, there are people in my, in
college who started off reallweak and got really good, y
u know, and I think, I don'tthink I even still realized it b

(40:17):
ck then, until I got the stdio where it was like I had som
where to go produce work. Andhe more work I produced, the mo
e strong my work got and the coser and closer I got to thi
style that kind of came out ofnowhere.

So, what's your studio practice like now? How do
you balance the making moneytype art and the new type of
things and the practice? Are youdoing it all in the same space?

Yeah, it's all in the same space. I wish I
had more time to make paintingsand just you know, drawings and
stuff. Right now, I'm honestlyso busy with commission stuff. I
come here like every day, andusually I try to block out the
quick cool like logos stuff inthe morning and then work all

(41:05):
afternoon on the biggerfreelance project that I'm
working on. And so, it'sdefinitely a balancing act even
within all the commission work,right now, because it's a lot of
different stuff. Then I havethese painting commissions, too,
that I want to do them andthey're sitting here and they're
really challenging and they takea really long time and I just,
every, it's like once everymonth, I sit down and paint for

(41:27):
a few hours, right now. And Ithink next month will be a
little different. I won't be sounder the gun under a large
freelance project and then I'llprobably do like two or three
days a week painting and stufflike that and then a couple more
days a week making money. Butright now my day is sort of
split between doing smallprojects and big projects that
are all commission. I don'treally have a lot of time for

(41:50):
just whatever I want to do. Butsome of these projects have been
really cool, to be honest andI've been able to have almost
100% control. So I still can'tcomplain. I'm getting a ton of
practice and doing a ton ofdrawing right now. So it's all
for the better.

Do you have any favorite tools?

Yeah, I really like oil painting, which
I still, I don't do it enoughand it's something that I
always, every time I make apainting, I'm like, I've got to
do this once a week or once aday, and I just don't because
it's such a, it's so much setup,and it's so much focus and it's
like, it's so hard compared towhatever else I do. But painting
for me, I feel like I have lessof a an ego about the process or

(42:32):
something where I feel sort of,I'm still learning how to
control it, so I don't get tolike cocky and I try to do it
right and follow my own processand whatever I've learned from
the couple professors I've had,and it's just a lot slower. And
so there's something super Zenabout painting and it's super
focused, and I don't make thesame kind of egotistical

(42:55):
decisions in the process whereit's like, I'm confident enough
to just breeze through drawing,but painting is like, it's
really easy to make it look bad.
So it's really hard to make itlook good. So I think I learn
the most when I'm painting andit's also just really satisfying
to paint. The whole tactileexperience is really nice. The
other end of that, my iPad hasbecome, it's attached to my hand

(43:18):
at this point. I have, I just,I'm constantly using it now.
Which is funny because my fiancgot it for me a couple years
ago, and I barely touched it inthe beginning. And now it's just
like, I don't have enough spaceon it because there's too many
files and I'm just making fouror five drawings on it a day.
And it's allowed me to replicatemy process from regular

(43:42):
drawings, like even coloredpencil, ink drawings and stuff.
I can do all the sketching inthere and I use a lot less paper
and it's so much easier to getsketches to clients without
scanning them or taking a photoYeah, it's
just, it's directly onto the comand texting and all that.

Right, downloading, uploading.
uter. So yeah, I just got aaycom, too but I'm still warming
up to it and my computer is gettng old so it doesn't do well wi
h it which is sort of a bummr so I got the Waycom but now I
eed to buy a new computer.
What do you feellike you need, can't you connect

(44:21):
the iPad now with, like I havean, I've been using the Apple
Pencil and Procreate, but Ithink I can also, I haven't
actually tried it yet because Idon't really use Photoshop a
ton, I use it more for brandingstuff not for art, but I think
you can use it connected,there's some app.

Yeah, there are apps I looked into them and
a lot of people talk about howthey experienced lag, so that
was why I decided to get aWaycom, but then I'm
experiencing lag anyway becausemy computer's too slow to run
the Waycom. So in the end, Idon't really know, it's sort of
annoying, technical hurdle toget over, seems stupid. But it

(45:01):
is what it is, my computer islike six years old now. But
yeah, the reason I got it isbecause there's just certain
things like in Illustrator andPhotoshop where it's like,
instead of doing it here andthen doing it there or doing it
on a mouse, I just want to beable to be right in Illustrator.

Right. Yeah, it's something that has really
bothered me as well. It's like,it's just a weird, it just
doesn't make any sense that youcan't do it. It just, it makes
zero sense. And then when I tryto try to explain it to people,
they don't really understand,but it's, there's just certain
things that I want to be able tojust move over and you can't,
and then, if you do it wrong inone or you didn't put the layers

(45:36):
down correctly.

Yeah and I wish, I just had a lot of
moments where I was like, oh, Igot to make this part on the
iPad and then do this part onIllustrator and I just thought
it would be a good thing, andwhen I upgrade my computer, I
think it will be but I, it'smostly for Illustrator, the
Photoshop thing, I thinkProcreate is more fun, honestly.

(45:59):
And so oil painting and iPad, myfavorite things right now.

Its funny because those are like totally
opposite. But I also have beenoil painting for the past year
or so, maybe and it's like, it'sso cathartic. I don't know, I
just I love it so much. And Iactually never really did
acrylic. I don't really comefrom a painting, I was a
printmaker in the beginning, soand then textile, so I'm, like,

(46:22):
totally different mediums. ButI'm trying to learn acrylic now
just for the sake of like,right, but it's so different
than oil and things I can do inoil and that I understood make
sense.

Yeah, I took, yeah, I took like a painting for
illustrators class in collegewith acrylics. And then I took
like a fine art class in collegeafter that, and I was just like,
I like oils better. I know, it'sso much more expensive and
longer process, but I don'tknow, acrylic stuff for me. I've
been messing around with wash alittle bit lately, too. But

(46:57):
it's, I don't know if it's justbecause I'm not as familiar with
it, but I'm more into the oilpainting right now than
anything.

How do you think that'll come out in your public
work?

Oh, well, that's actually a good question.
Which I've been, I took an oilpainting class at SVA like two
summers ago, and it completelychanged my understanding of
color, even when I'm just doingsimple stuff. So, it was like, I
got this whole, I got back inthe groove of making an oil

(47:28):
painting and I had a processagain, and I was like, oh, yeah,
right, the darks and the, if youput a little hot green inside of
this kind of like mud green, thewhole thing turns this different
green and, and so, it's made mea lot less afraid of color, in
general. And I can experimentmore and use stranger colors

(47:48):
next to each other, and findcooler combinations and stuff.
And so my color is becoming morecomplex in my illustration work
because of the painting class Itook, even though they don't
look the same, but it's the wayI color in illustrations is way
more simple than the way that Itry to achieve color in oil

(48:09):
painting. So it's good to havethat extreme working knowledge
to do something more simple.

Which oil class did you take?

This guy, John Parks. I might take, I
might sign up for another one ofhis classes that he's doing this
weekend, honestly. It was a,some sort of, it was called
bringing your paintings to lifeor something like that. And it
was a lot, it was a lot of likereplicating photos. He just had
a really nice way of teaching inthat, he would just be like,

(48:39):
just go like, do what I say, butthen just kind of go for it,
just get into the painting andjust do it, you have to start
just laying the paint down andcover the canvas. And so he kind
of breaks the barrier a littlebit for for you, instead of
being so intimidated and soscared to mess it up. And he's
funny, and his paintings arecrazy. So it was satisfying to

(49:04):
take a class like that. And forme, too, I just, the drawing
style, it's like stuck now, too,so like even when I'm
replicating a photo, it's likeor, you know, painting from
life, it's still like I'm stillmaking the same moves. So yeah,
it sounds weird to copy ofphoto, but his subjects, too,

(49:24):
whatever the assignments wouldbe, it would be something super
simple, like paint water, orlike paint a night scene and
then you could just do whateveryou wanted. So obviously, I have
subject matter that I like todo. So I would just choose cool
things and paint cool things andI don't know, it was just fun.
And I learned a lot. So I thinkI might take another one.

(49:45):
Honestly.

Yeah, they're doing them all, well, some of
them are online now, too.

Yeah, but it's all on zoom.

Yeah, it's weird. I'm doing a still life
class on zoom and I love myteacher. It's Adam Cross at New
York Academy of Art and he'samazing, but I miss being in a
class, I miss being witheveryone.

Yeah, I know.

Its a totally different feeling.

The class aspect is different. Like, it
was really funny to be with thisguy, John Parks, he would just
make these dark jokes about howstressful painting can be and I
don't know, he was just funny tobe around. It's different when
he's coming around looking atthe canvas and grabbing the
paintbrush being like, try that.

Right.

So, we'll see. I still think I'm going to
take the class though. I justlearned so much last time and it
gave me such a boost in skilllevel, so I want to keep doing
that.

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What are some things you've beenreading or listening to that's
been inspiring lately?

Oh man, listening to? So, a couple
months ago, well, there's thisradio station called NTS, which
is based in London, and they'vebeen doing a series called In
Focus, which, it's all over themap, they've got an episode for
Shawty and they've got anepisode for Gucci Mane and
they've got an episode for GilScott-Heron and the Gil Scott

(51:37):
mix, it's like, I've become likeobsessed with it. I listened,
I've listened to it like 45times and it's like an hour and
a half long. So it's like,that's one thing. I stay up on
the London radio stuff a lot. SoI listen to the Hessle Audio
show a lot, which is reallygood. But, everybody should
check it out.

Is it music?
It's just a music thing?

Yeah. I don't know if you've heard his music
before. Its kind of bluesy,modern bluesy, but there's a lot
of poetry on this one too, and alot of topical stuff as it turns
out. So I recommend that andthen reading, it's been kind of
random. I read The Alchemistrecently, my fiance bought it,
and I read it and it was nice.
And then I've been readingSteppenwolf, which is really

(52:19):
slow and hard to read, butthere's a lot of relatable stuff
in it. So it's kind of, the oldEnglish writing is kind of nice,
too. But nothing too crazy. Ihonestly don't read enough. But
I listen to a ton of music. Idon't, could not work without
it.

Do you have like a playlist that you've made? Or
do you have, do you listen tothose radio shows?

I listen to the radio shows because there's
tons of good DJs out there. Likethere's the, there's, you just
learn so much about different,like music scenes that and like
the NTS In Focus thing is cool,because it's a lot of artists
you've heard of, but someonecurates the tracks from

(53:00):
different parts of their careerin a nice way. But there's also
just so many DJs, and so manymusic movements, like Chicago
footwork and jersey club music,and I don't know, there's just
so much random stuff that's outthere, I would have never been
exposed to if I didn't listen toSoundCloud or NTS. And I've been
on that rabbit hole for a whilenow, so I sort of know what I'm

(53:24):
looking for. But I recommendpeople checking out SoundCloud
and NTS radio. It's, there'stons of music out there.

Yeah, I'll definitely link to it in the
show notes. I love when DJs giveyou context, like I listen to
Radio 3 from Madrid, Spain a lotbecause they have, they're on a
different time zone, right, sothere's that weird part of it,
and they just go deep intoartists who we know as
Americans, because it's what wegrew up with, you know, but they

(53:52):
go way deep into somebody. AndI'm like, I had no idea or like,
just B tracks and stuff, B sidesand you're like, why did, why
are these people so much moreobsessed where I feel like
American radio, we don't giveany context.

American radio doesn't even play it.
Yeah, there's so much music outthere, they don't really play
most of it, honestly. There's somuch music. That's the thing you
realize, a lot of these guys whoI listened to on the radio are
like, based in London, butthey'll play DJ stuff that's
from Brooklyn, but you neverhear it on the radio in New
York.

Right.

It's like, I don't know why it's like that,
but its the way it is. So yeah,I recommend checking out London
radio. It's way better thanAmerican radio.

I feel like any radio outside of the US is
better than US radio.

Yeah, I don't know why. I mean, it's funny to
think about how London andEngland in general has just
always been kind of the centerfor music, for a really long
time. Beatles and Led Zeppelinand all that stuff. Just goes
way back. So anyway, music.
Definitely check out NTS radioIn Focus, especially Gil
Scott-Herons mix.

I will definitely check it out. Who are
a few people who have been themost influential to you?

Well, it's been different, well, it
changes. I think in the verybeginning, it was like comic
books, like cartoons. And thensimilar timeframe when I got a
little older there was a lot ofEgon Schiele and Gustav Klimt
books around my dad's house andmy mom's house, so a lot of
those Viennese artists. And thenwhen I started getting more into

(55:24):
college and illustration, therewas James Jean and Paul Pope,
Ashley wood, who I mentionedbefore, and then there's so
much, there's Tintin comics,Milo Manara. Now with Instagram,
there's just so many, CarlyAndrews is really crazy. That
guy, Mr. Reese, who I mentionedbefore, and Axel Void, and so

(55:44):
it's sort of like this mix ofcomic books and cartoons and
anime and video games and moreclassical stuff and then like
the Instagram current stuff. SoI'm constantly pulling stuff. I
wish I could remember thismuralist. He's got stuff all
over, Thomas Benton Hart is, Ilook at his stuff constantly.

(56:05):
Because he did, he was an oldAmerican painter and his work
was all about the working class.
And he has a couple murals inNew York from, you know, the
turn of the century. That hasbeen a big shift in thinking for
me, because he does crazy thingswith scale and it'll be you
know, it'll be like a city scenewhere a guy's forging iron, like

(56:27):
on an anvil, and then supersmall scale, there's like
criminals selling drugs, andit's just like he plays with
scale. And the storytelling is,it's similar to what I was
talking about my own work beforewhere it's like, he's spelling
it out for you. You see thewhole picture at first, but then
if you, the closer you go in,the more you notice, and so

(56:48):
that's been a big influence onmy work for the past, like
couple years. It's all over theplace and it comes from a lot of
places, I mean, anime, too, likeMiyazaki stuff and Dragonball Z
and all those things too, as faras linework and just ways to
treat scenes and ways to drawthe human figure and it's really

(57:09):
important to have reference, Ithink, and inspiration.

Cool. What's a common myth about what you do,
particularly around doing muralwork?

Yeah, it goes back to getting paid for
everything, I guess. It's, youknow, this is what, this is what
you love to do, so just do it,kind of thing. And it's sort of
like, well, why should I do itfor you? Like, it's, yeah, you
know, so, I think that's, that'sreally common in all aspects of
commissioned art is like, well,you know, you're doing what you

(57:42):
love, but I'll be honest, Ithink people are coming around a
little bit. I think my lastinterview that you mentioned,
The Process, the Processinterview, I was a little bit
more salty about getting paid.
Because lately, people are like,well, how much do you charge?
And before I wasn't reallygetting asked that question much
and I don't know if it's becausethe art has gotten to a certain
level, and I've just beenexposed more, or if it's just

(58:05):
becoming more common knowledgethat, if you want something from
an artist, you have to pay forit. And I feel like the decision
to do something for free shouldbe on the artist, unless you're
offered that, don't, try not toask for it. Because it's always
kind of like a bummer. Yourelike, oh, well, I wanted to be

(58:26):
able, you know, I dont know.

You want to do the work, but you don't want to
do it for free.

Yeah, I want to do the work, I'd be happy to
do it. But I could do the samething pretty much, like if we're
gonna go through the wholeprocess of coming up with a
concept and making a sketch andeverything, what's the point of
me doing it free? If I justcan't do whatever, you know, so
I think, yeah, the whole ideathat you should just do this
because you love it is totallyoff base, because it's something

(58:53):
that you also practice and workon so much. And you put in so
many hours. Like, why would, whywould you do it for free?

I am curious if you have any ideas of why do you
think street art, but also muralart in particular, is so male
dominated.

I think it's just sort of old in the way that
something like, likeskateboarding is sort of similar
culture where it's like, anybodycan go do it, but at the same
time, it's like only guys, andit's a really good escape kind
of thing, but it sort of hasthis tough guy persona. And I
think it, until recently,society and culture sort of

(59:32):
separated women from that, morelike you know, the past five,
five to 10 years, you've beenseeing a shift. I definitely
know a handful of mural artiststhat are women, though. I think
they're popping up in the scenea lot more for sure. Like for
me, like you said, you came upto me and asked me questions, I
don't, I don't feel like myposition in the mural scene is

Colossal.
stronger than anybody else. Idid an artist's residency with
these, this group of artistscalled Legendeer and one of the,
I wouldn't really call themteachers, I don't know what you
would say, mentors was thisgirl, Emily Herr and she, she's
super strong. I think she doesthis thing called Girls! Girls!
Girls! where she goes arounddriving a truck, she has a

(01:00:16):
studio in an old, its like anice cream truck, and she built
her own studio in it, and shejust drives around and paints
these murals of celebratingwomen, and she's got a really
strong style and she's reallygood. And so, I don't think
it's, the scene is without them,it's definitely dominant, and in
New York, too, I don't know,there's this, kind of this like,
tough guy thing. I remember Ialmost applied for an

(01:00:38):
apprenticeship with, what's thathuge mural company, not SEEN,
but the other one?

Massimo Mongiardo (01:00:43):
Colossal, yeah. And it was just like, the
whole application was sort oflike, we prefer people who
worked in kitchens and aretough, and we prefer, than like
artists, and it was more like,it had this tough thing and it
was sort of like, it's not, thatdoesn't mean women can't have
that kind of attitude, but itwas sort of like this, for me,

(01:01:05):
it wasn't that appealing. And soI think it's sort of just that
attitude, I'm sort of makingthis comparison to skate, the
skateboard scene, too, whereit's like, people are like,
well, girls aren't as good at itor whatever, which is, it
Especiallywith painting. I mean, women are
doesn't really reflect what'sgoing on.
like, there's billions of amazng women artists, it's not,

Stephanie Eche (01:01:21):
Right.
don't know why, honestly. LikI said, for me, I don't feel li
e some strong dominant figre in the scene at all. So I
on't know why it would be domnated by men because women paint
there's no better or worse ipainting. It's all just
an even playing field and you cn be super strong, no matter who

(01:01:41):
you are, you just got to getgood at it. Yeah, I don't know.
wish I had a better answer. Defnitely check out Emily Herr, her
stuffs amazing. And she's ding a cool thing right now whe
e she's giving up wall spacefor persons of color and le
ting them express themselves owall spaces that she has
nd she's encouraging businessesto do it, too.

(01:02:06):
Yeah, I do thinkjust one anecdote of the like,
Mexican mural movement, youknow, like Riviera.

Yeah, another person. I look at a lot, yeah.

Yeah, so they were like the big three and
everything. But there were also,like Maria Izquierdo was an
artist during that time and shewas doing just as good, if not
better work than them. But theyliterally didn't let her do
murals. She had mural projectsand they told her she wasn't
allowed to because she was awoman. So I think there's
obscured, messed up things wherecertain people haven't been, and

(01:02:38):
then she wasn't known as a muralartists because she wasn't
allowed to do those projects.
You know, it's just like layersand layers of things that have
created this perception thatwomen can't do it or they're not
going to be as good, even thoughthere are so many examples of
women who would have been.

Yeah, I mean, I often, it's so untrue,
basically, like a ton of thepeople I follow on Instagram are
female artists, like[INDISTINGUISHABLE], Vanessa Del
Rey, Emily Herr, they're, it'slike, they're pretty dominant,
at least in my bubble, you knowwhat I mean? So I think just
back then, especially, historyis sort of written in this

(01:03:15):
singular perspective, which issomething that everyone's
talking about right now.

Right.

And Gil Scott mix, he talks about that, too.
It's been that way for a longtime. And it's it sucks. It's
bullshit.

Well, hopefully we can change it.

Yeah. I mean, it's one of the things that I
think has to change and youcan't, it's difficult right now.
Truth is, the truth is sort ofwhatever you want it to be,
which is, which is bizarre.

What do you mean?

Well, the news can change the narrative
and Instagram can change thenarrative and all that stuff.
Like it, you know, the protestsare probably still going on, but
I don't see anything on the newsright now.

Right.

You know what I mean? So I don't know, might
have ended, I guess. You know,so it's difficult, people
have, you start to see how histoy works and it's sort of just w
itten by someone who puts a stamon it and says, this is what
appened.

Right.

It's strange.

Like the self fulfilling prophecy, kind of,
like the more you put it,whoever controls the media and
controls the news can just setthe narrative, yeah. Well,
that's a terrifying note.

Yeah, that's a dark conversation for another
time. Sorry.

Well, on that note, how can our listeners
connect with you online?

Instagram is probably the best place. It's
the thing I use the most, andI'm still working on my website,
I have to fix it. And I don'treally use Twitter, I don't
really use Facebook. So,definitely Instagram.

What's your handle on Instagram?

It's just my name, @massimomongiardo. Yep, no
spaces, no nothing. So yeah.

I'll link to everything in the show notes.

Cool. Thank you so much.

Everything we talked about and yeah, thank you
so much for talking. It wasgreat to catch up. I wish it
were under better circumstances.

It's cool that we can do this. And it's
cool that you're doing it. So,that's good.

Thanks.

Thanks for talking.

Awesome. Thank you so much! Thanks for
listening to this episode of

Have a good one. See ya later.
First Coat. If you liked thisodcast, please leave a review.
ake sure to subscribe to theirst Coat podcast wherever
you listen to podcasts. And folow us on Instagram @firstcoa
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irst Coat is a production of mcompany, Distill Cr
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Massimo Mongiardo on Developing a Personal Style, Mural Designs for Clients, and Influences

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