September 13, 2021 • 48 mins
This week on First Coat we have Amina Cooper. Amina is a curator, public arts consultant and public art policy strategist and founder of Amewa Fine Art. She has over a decade of experience working with fine art and public art collections for leading municipalities, museums and galleries in Washington, DC and Boston, MA. She currently manages over 3 million dollars in large scale public art projects as a public art consultant. She is also the inaugural Forecast Change Lab Research Fellow and initiated a broad survey of black public art. She created and runs the Instagram account @Blackmonuments.
In this episode we talk about how to create more equity in the public art space and learn from Amina's experience leading large-scale public art projects.
Show Notes: http://distillcreative.com/blog/09/13/21/public-art-and-equity-with-amina-kache-cooper-ep-19
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Stephanie Eche (00:02):
Welcome to First Coat, where we explore public
realm art, how it's made and whyit matters. I'm your host
Stephanie Eche an artist andentrepreneur based in Brooklyn,
New York. I run Distill Creativewhere I curate and produce site
specific art projects for realestate developers. I focus on
creating more equitable andinclusive projects, and I want
to get more exposure for theartists and developers doing
(00:24):
this work. This week on FirstCoat we have Amina Cooper, Amina
is a curator, public artsconsultant and public art policy
strategist and founder of AMEWAFine Art. She has over a decade
of experience working with fineart and public art collections
for leading municipalities,museums and galleries in
Washington, DC and Boston,Massachusetts. She currently
(00:45):
manages over $3 million andlarge scale public art projects
as a public art consultant. Sheis also the inaugural forecast
change lab research fellow andinitiated a broad survey of
black public art she created andruns the Instagram account Black
Monuments. In this episode, wetalk about how to create more
equity in the public art spaceand learn from Amina's
experience leading large scalepublic art projects. Here's our
(01:05):
conversation.
Welcome to First Coat. Thank youso much for being a guest today.
Can you tell us a little bitabout who you are and what you
do?
Amina Kache Cooper (01:14):
Sure, and thank you so much for having me.
My name is Amina. I amoriginally from Atlanta, Georgia
and I am a public art consultantand fine art advisor. And I have
my own practice, it's calledAmewa Fine Art and what I do for
clients is help them manage theproject management piece of
coordinating a public artproject. But I additionally work
(01:38):
with individuals and groups thatare interested in either
acquiring a collection of eitherpublic or fine art and also to
manage that collection oncethey've established it.
Stephanie Eche (01:50):
That sounds awesome. Right up our alley? How
would you define arts in publicspace?
Amina Kache Cooper (01:57):
That's a great question. And I think that
that definition is one that hasevolved over time. In my view,
public art is any expression anyartistic cultural, creative
expression, in the public realm,outdoors or in community spaces
that is created, either inpartnership or in dialogue with
(02:18):
community or with the communityor landscape as a consideration.
And I think for a long time,we've typically thought of that
as bronze sculptures or, orwhatever major stainless steel
piece that you're seeingcommissioned in the 70s in front
of City Hall. But I think thatdefinition have expanded and
broadened thankfully, to includeyou know, all types of materials
(02:40):
and media and also work that'snot permanent, that's temporary,
and works in processes thatdon't typically yield anything
tangible. It's a really excitingtime to be in the field.
Stephanie Eche (02:52):
In an interview you did with Engaging Local
Government Leaders, you talked alot about growing up near an
airport, and how that was yourfirst experience of public art.
Can you tell us a little bitmore about that?
Amina Kache Cooper (03:03):
Yeah. So it's it's so interesting now
that I'm you know, my primaryclient right now is an airport
in Charlotte, you know, mymother retired from Delta
Airlines. And I think shestarted working there the year
that I was born and worked therefor 20 years. So one of the
perks of being you know, adependent of somebody that works
for an airline is typically youget to fly for free or at a
(03:23):
significantly reduced cost. So,you know, I've been flying for
as long as I remember. And I'vehad the great fortune of being
able- being able to travel allacross the world. So my earliest
memories of public art is goingthrough the old old terminals at
Hartsfield. And there was thisneon work by Stephen Antonakos.
(03:45):
And so after going throughsecurity, you go down these
stairs that take you onto atrain that will take you to the
terminals. There's thesebeautiful, neon, super 80s style
beyond artworks, and I justremember them catching my eye.
And every time I traveled islooking forward to seeing them.
Because it just was it was sitedat such a location in the
(04:05):
airport where you knew if yousaw them, you were getting ready
to start your journey. So I'llyou know, unfortunately, they
didn't stop those words thatmake way for advertising, which
is it's, you know, that's whathappens. But that was my
earliest memory of public artwithout really recognizing that
it was public art.
Stephanie Eche (04:23):
How did you first start doing work in public
space?
Amina Kache Cooper (04:27):
It was interesting, and it was, you
know, kind of a struggle to sortof get to this role, which is a
role that I've always wanted.
I've always wanted to work inthe arts, but in a more broadly
accessible capacity. I studiedfine art and photography at
Howard University andjournalism, and I originally
thought that I would be thisreally cool fine art
photographer, and then Iinterned with a commercial
(04:50):
commercial photographer, andthat just totally killed all of
the joy that I had for it. So Ithought, okay, I need to work on
the other end and be anadministrator so went to Boston
University got an ArtsManagement degree, and ended up
working after a couple of rolesat a local arts agency. And my
background in journalism causedme to come into the role of
(05:11):
managing communications, andalso doing grant writing. So I
fell into this role as a grantwriter and a fundraiser, I was
working with my organization totry to acquire one of the NAR
town grants. And just thatprocess of gathering
information, interviewingcommunity, gathering documents,
(05:32):
researching, putting together aproposal, specifically around a
public art project in anunderserved, sort of
historically neglected part ofthe state caused me to have more
of an understanding of publicart. And I think it helped put
me on the radar of RCO. So bythe time we got our grant, the
former public arts managertransitioned out of the
(05:57):
organization, and she was like,"Was this something that you
would want to do?" And I waslike, "Absolutely, I've been
waiting for you to ask me that."So that's how I came into public
art and started managing thecollection that the county had
acquired since the 70s. So it'sreally broad collection of
outdoor sculpture, but also workon paper or some paper that had
been in the city buildings andcounty buildings that I was
(06:19):
responsible for managing andfiguring out the next steps for.
Stephanie Eche (06:25):
Would you say you do a lot of research based
on whatever project you'reworking on? Or do you depend on
research that you had as anundergrad? What's the continued
learning life, like for you?
Amina Kache Cooper (06:36):
Honestly, I would say, the learning that
occurred for me at Howard, andat Boston University,
particularly around nonprofitmanagement is just it's so
integral to the work that I donow, because a lot of public art
management is understandingbudgets, understanding the
structures of how businesses andnonprofit enterprises work,
(06:59):
undertaking city funding, countyfunding and basic accounting.
And then, you know, mybackground sort of studying to
be this fine artist helped mereally work better with artists
today, because I understand sortof their concerns their fears,
or capacities, and I just, Ifeel like I communicate better
with artists, because I havetraining as an artist.
Stephanie Eche (07:19):
What's the role of photography in both preparing
of a public art project andalso, when assessing the
project?
Amina Kache Cooper (07:26):
You know, I don't think so much that my
like, I know that I use myphotography degree, generally,
it comes into play when I'mevaluating portfolios, or I'm
thinking about how we want todocument work. But it was just
really sort of the broadtraining that I had studying
Fine Arts and a Howard you hadlike, I had a photo degree, but
(07:47):
I was studying ceramics andstill cleaning and all of those
things. And I think that that'sprimarily the main thing that
helped me work with artists inthis role, because it's really
being able to work with anartist, and then your client
group, and then trying to findlike a bridge between those two
very different, sometimes verydifferent styles of
communication, and thenhierarchy of needs.
Stephanie Eche (08:11):
How do you approach curating for art and
public space?
Amina Kache Cooper (08:14):
Well, for me, you know, I- the public art
is that the word public is justfirst and foremost. So I try to
take a backseat, and reallythink about what the needs of
the community are and what theneeds of the client are, and
figure out how we can meet bothof those needs. And then also to
address needs and concerns thatmaybe haven't been articulated,
(08:37):
or weren't even understood asneeds or concern. Generally,
what we, you know, a sort of abest practice for the field, is
to create either a panel or agroup of decision makers and
policymakers that represent bothsort of artistic expertise, but
also are composed of folks thatare actually in the community.
(08:59):
So when we're looking andevaluating artists, we have
their perspectives as acommunity member saying, Hey,
this is what we need, we wouldlove to see this, you know,
we're super drawn to that. Andthen you also have client
representation saying, okay,yes, this would work we can, we
can get behind this. And thenyou're starting that
communication and a dialoguethat really has to sort of play
out throughout the entireprocess of commissioning, you
(09:21):
know, the installation. Andthen, you know, generally once
we selected an artist based oncommunity and play client input,
and then our expertise as theadministrators, we still go back
to a community oriented processwhere the artist that you
selected and we bring on boardis able to either have meetings,
community meetings, charettes.
However, that process looks likefor them and luckily artists are
(09:41):
so they're just the brillianceis that they're able to do that
in a really new, unique way. Soeither, you know, sometimes
they'll create our community andthen learn about community
interest and communities thatway, but the idea and the hope
is that they're able tointegrate those community voices
into the final product withoutreally sort of impinging on what
the artists desires are. Andthen my role as a public art
(10:04):
administrator, as a projectmanager, is to make sure that
the artist has the support thatthey need, that the community
voice is not lost throughouttheir creative process. And then
I also generally like andthinking about curating public
space, I like to think about whois presented and how we can best
compliment and makecomprehensive, you know, that
(10:26):
work that is then creating abody of work, you know, you're
adding to an existingcollection. So I'm thinking,
what materials haven't we seen,which community neighborhoods
have not had work cited? So thenwe might focus on that
community, we might focus on aparticular culture or community
neighborhood that really hasn'thad an opportunity to see
(10:47):
themselves reflected. So thoseare the primary considerations.
But as you can see, there are amyriad of considerations. But
for me, community, theresidents, the people that have
to live in that space are theprimary.
Stephanie Eche (11:00):
And how do you assess which communities haven't
been represented or haven't beenseen in the public art, or
general?
Amina Kache Cooper (11:09):
A lot of that is, that's where the data
and the collection and theresearch comes in, I had the
good fortune, really sort of atthe start of my career in public
art, managing a collection, andworking with the right
consultants that, you know, didassessments of the collection.
So in order to say, okay, thisis what we should do, you have
to really look at the collectionas it is and say, okay, this is
(11:31):
what- this is where we'veinstalled work. This is the
term, the period of time inwhich we've created these works,
this is the majority of materialthat we've used. And then just
in terms in the same way thatyou'll look at sort of funding
and see, you'll see patterns andfinding which communities which
organizations have gottenfunding over a period of time,
it's the same way with publicart, if you have records that
(11:52):
she can rely upon. And even ifyou don't have records, you just
go out into the community andsee like, okay, well, we have a
lot of works in this in thisurban center in this downtown
area. But these, you know, ruralcommunities, often you'll see
deserts. So it's a combinationof looking at your records,
great collection managementpractices, but then also just,
you know, footwork just goingout into the community and
(12:14):
seeing what exists. And youknow, where the disparities are.
Stephanie Eche (12:18):
How do you keep track of all of this? Is there a
system that you use? Does itdepend on the client?
Amina Kache Cooper (12:24):
It depends on the client and agency, I've
been able to work it atorganizations that had
collection management system. Soin the same way that you would
have a database or, you know,honestly, sometimes it's even
just an Excel spreadsheet,unfortunately. Other times it's
more robust database systemswhere you can track when work is
created, when it's installed,who the artist is, in the same
(12:45):
way that museums have systemsthat track or because that's the
way that you know, you know,you're able to track
maintenance, we know whenmaintenance needs will pop up
when when the work is due forconservation, because generally
that's on a on a time cycle. Soyou're you have to have really
robust, or just any sort ofsystem to help manage that
because you know these works,they're not inexpensive,
(13:08):
generally. And it's aninvestment and you want to be
able to take care of yourinvestment over time.
Stephanie Eche (13:12):
In your blog post 'How Public Art Programs
Can Join the Movement AgainstPolice Brutality, White
Supremacy, and Anti Black Racismin American Arts,' you wrote,
"It is time to talk about thelack of diversity within our
public art commission's artists,selection panels, and other
public artists workforce, weneed to address the elitism
which we with which we dictateto communities, which artworks
(13:33):
are acceptable, and whichpersons and cultures are worth
affirming with monuments andbeautiful objects." And I'll put
that link in the show notes. Soeverybody can actually read the
article, because it's a greatarticle. How do you think art
programs, public art programs,and private funders can better
support artists andorganizations who are outside of
those that have beenhistorically funded?
Amina Kache Cooper (13:55):
Yeah, that is a great question. And as you
know, somebody that works inpublic art, but is also really
sort of sees herself as a, youknow, a policy strategist. I'm
continually- continuously askingmyself that question. And, you
know, looking for best practicesanswered, what I can say is that
that is, you know, somethingthat we have to continue to ask
(14:17):
ourselves, I think thebenchmark, the very basic thing
that we should do, that we stillhave not done is to sort of
break up the the homogenous-nessof our field, it's difficult to
bring in and accept differentviewpoints and perspectives when
there's, you know, one sort ofsolid voice in charge of sort of
(14:41):
ecosystem that is our field. Sowhen you look at the field of
public art administrators, Ibelieve it's almost 80%, white
and female. Similarly, in art,you know, because it's a
marriage between urban designersor planners, architects,
artists, government,policymakers, and there's not
enough diversity within thoseparticular fields so, there's
(15:02):
just a lack of one, there'sracial bias, there's a lack of
understanding of how to evendeal with diverse communities in
order to integrate them. Andthere's this sort of a
narrowness in terms of what weperceive as excellence, or even
our own sort of modes ofaesthetic sensibility, it's very
(15:22):
narrow. So until we're at thepoint where that those people's
making those decisions andselecting artists, and then you
know, the selecting whichneighborhoods get funding for,
like, the communities thatthey're serving, we're not we're
not going to get there. So I forme, I feel like that's that is
going to do is really justaddress how to, you know, combat
(15:44):
to- of racial bias, making surethat our fields and our
workforces are more culturallyand racially diverse. Once we do
that, we'll be able to take onother other sort of micro
strategies around, you know,best ways to engage in community
outreach and best ways tosupport artists. Because right
(16:04):
now, strategies are, they're notreally great. Like they're we
just have so much work to do,and integrating new voices,
intergenerational voices,multicultural voices into this
field, for me is the toppriority.
Stephanie Eche (16:21):
How do you influence that when you're
working on a project?
Amina Kache Cooper (16:25):
Well, one of the things that I've tried to do
at the really at the beginningof you know, we have funding, we
want to create art, what shouldwe do in making sure that, you
know, the Artist's ElectionCommittee, the, you know, the
boards, in a sense, are diverse.
So if I'm an administrator on aproject, what I'll do is say,
okay, listen, and I honestly, itwill be like, okay, we have a
(16:47):
couple of African Americans fromthe neighborhood where this work
is going to go, we have somefemale voices, we have some
LGBTQ voices, we have some, youknow, voices that represent
Western and European traditions,how, do we have a table that
looks like our communities, andit's just it's such, it's easier
to work from there. And ifthat's something that you can't
(17:12):
do, as an administrator, youknow, another strategy that I've
done partnership with anotherleader that I worked with, is
saying, hey, this work is 100%,white, you know, staff is the
are the only persons of color atthis table. So we need to, we
need to create new policies andthose policies included during
(17:32):
that the the board wasculturally diverse. And that
meant that the people who wereon that board had to leave. So
you know, sometimes you have toreally just go into, you have to
write the rules, in order to me,because a lot of a lot of the
time these organizations, andentities are operating under
practices that were created.
(17:55):
Many, many moons ago, many yearsago, when, you know, the concept
of cultural or racial equity wasjust sort of like this far flung
theory that nobody cared about,you know, a lot of organizations
are operating under thesepolicies that haven't really
been revisited since the 70s,since the 60s. So that's always
a really great place to startfor me, as somebody that works
(18:17):
in policy and strategic planningis to say, hey, do you have
guidelines, you have policies?
And is it time to revisit them?
Stephanie Eche (18:22):
So taking a look at the foundation of the
organization? backwards, beforeyou can go forward?
Amina Kache Cooper (18:28):
Exactly, you know, because a lot of the
times, you know, the culture,and the values are, you know,
they come out of these strategicplanning documents these mission
statements, the valuestatements, and until you sort
of realign that you're not goingto see those outcomes that, you
know, will produce moreequitable outcomes for
communities.
Stephanie Eche (18:48):
It seems like there's a I don't want to call
it a trend. But it does seem alittle bit like a trend of
organizations trying to be moreequitable, or being more diverse
and having an outside consultantcome in and like fix everything.
How do you think that's beengoing? or what have you seen,
just generally with with that?
Amina Kache Cooper (19:08):
You know, I feel like that is, it's a
process that a lot oforganizations need to go
through. But I think foranything like that can be
successful. It takes one strongleadership at the organization
and from the AD or the director,to your volunteers, to your
board of directors. So if thereis not a will there, then you
(19:32):
need to change the leadershipand then recompose your board
until that is a value becauseyou can bring in a consultant
all day to create best, youknow, best practices and to
create recommendations, but ifthe will isn't there, and it's,
it's generally or it's just, youknow, a thing that we were going
to see that we do so that we canget this fund, you know,
ecause we know that grant- younow, grantors are funding these
(19:54):
nitiatives. It's not going toe successful it's going to be
ard.
Stephanie Eche (19:58):
How would you define equity in public art?
Amina Kache Cooper (20:01):
Oh, that's a great question. You know, for
me, you know, I just I thinkabout my experiences, managing
collections, and seeing thesesame artists in the records as
having executed these worksacross across decades, equity in
public art means that everybodyin the community has an
opportunity wanting to engagewith art in the public realm.
(20:24):
So, you know, we're not justcreating these pockets, where
we're only placing public art inwhite affluent neighborhoods
means that every neighborhoodgets to have public art in their
community. And it also meansthat artists that are, you know,
non white, that are multigenerational, you know, from
different schools, differentbackgrounds, are able to
(20:46):
participate in the process asartists, as community members
who get to choose and selectart, you know, that everybody is
a part of that ecosystem, andthat the people who live in
those communities get to seethemselves in their values in
their desires, aspirationsreflected in the art community.
So for me, that is what equityis that everybody is, you know,
(21:06):
appropriately represented at thetable.
Stephanie Eche (21:11):
Are you an artist? Submit your portfolio at
distillcreative.com/artists,you'll get on our Distilled
Directory, our artists database,and be considered for upcoming
art commissions.
Are there any places whetherthat's a city or a town or an
organization that you think aredoing this well?
Amina Kache Cooper (21:31):
Well, for one, I will say that a lot of
times we live with public art,and we don't recognize the full
guard. You know, I love seeingart in part, but I also love
seeing art in transit. And Iguess I'm biased because I'm,
you know, I've been working withan airport for a while, but I
feel like those sorts ofunlikely places are really going
to see really cool examples ofpublic art, you know, I love and
(21:55):
I also love sort of thisintegration of art where people
are working and living andplaying, you know, I'm born and
raised in Atlanta. So I'mbiased, but I love the work that
they're doing at the AtlantaBeltline, where you know, people
can eat and sip and drink andbike ride, and there's artwork
that that's across all budgetsthat they can see and enjoy. I
(22:16):
love the work that they're doingat LaGuardia Airport. I mean,
you know, I, I just really lovebeautiful, monumental works by
diverse artists. But I also I'mreally increasingly interested
in sort of this idea of socialpractice. I am a longtime fan of
Rick Lowe and the work thatthey're doing with a project row
houses in Houston, I love thatmodel of saying, Hey, you know,
(22:40):
we're going to build it, sincenobody wants to fund it, we're
going to manage the artwork inour community, we're going to
support our community ofartists. And, you know, I was
recently working in Charlotte.
And similarly, sort of like thenewer version of that or new
iteration of that is a projectcalled rolled up ELT managed by
really just brilliant public artadministrator, Jessica Moss,
(23:00):
where she's flipping, sort ofrehabbing these under utilized
homes, creating spaces whereartists can have- of have a
fellowship here, where they'reintegrated into the community,
they get to learn what thecommunity's issues are they
create projects based on sort ofthat relationship, that they're
building the community overtime. So I'm going to list a few
of the things that I'm that I'mlooking at that I really love.
Stephanie Eche (23:24):
Thank you. I'll put links for all of those in
the show notes so people cantake a look at those, those
projects and ongoingopportunities to see really
great public art. How do yousuggest measuring equity and in
a public art project, orprogram?
Amina Kache Cooper (23:40):
Yeah. So that kind of leads me to this
really wonderful fellowshipopportunity that I've been
fortunate to, to forecast publicart in their chain lab
fellowship. One of the thingsthat I kept hearing this
reoccurring recurring theme frommy colleagues is that, hey, we
want to commissioned moreartists of color, we want to
(24:03):
work with more black artists,but we don't know how to find
them. That led me to createthis, you know, Instagram page,
Black Monuments, where all I dois just post public artworks
created by people of Africandescent. And then that led me to
really think about how do we getmore public works created by
black artists and particularly,but then I also just focus on
(24:25):
black artists one because I'mblack, but also I just feel like
anything that's going to workfor black folks also helps serve
Latinx, Asian, and thenindigenous communities as well.
Those strategies can also arejust, you know, applicable as
well. So my fellowship sort ofproposal is really to serve a
field of entities that arecommissioning art and seeing
(24:50):
them what their fundingstructures are, you know, how do
they manage their panels orartist selection panels, how
often are they commissioningworks by black artists and its
service serving their existingcollection and saying how many
of these other collection areactually created by black people
and asking them for theirsuccess stories, hopefully, what
I'll find just in the servingprocess are trends to say, you
(25:12):
know, for example, you know,entities that have that rely
primarily on funding fromfoundations, rather than
individuals see more success incommissioning artists of color,
for example, I'm trying to tiethese outcomes to specific
policy decisions that are tiedto the overall management of
public art programs. So I'mrelying on that sort of, you
(25:34):
know, hard data. But I also amin the process of this
fellowship is I wanted one onone interviews with artists,
black artists, just ask themabout their experiences, to see
you know, how we can improve ourrelationships with artists,
black artists of color, from astandpoint of, you know,
(25:55):
policymaker, because often, youknow, we're just so happy to get
these opportunities that will,we will put up with a lot of
things that we shouldn't put upwith, I really wanted to get
those both perspectives orperspectives of the funder and
the commissioner and theperspective of the artists that
it has to navigate thesepolicies in order to create
these works. Hopefully, bycombining those different types
(26:15):
of data, I'll be able to seesome trends and create best
practices for the fields that wecan use.
Stephanie Eche (26:19):
How much of the class status of the artist are
you tracking?
Amina Kache Cooper (26:23):
That's a great question. You know, I have
I have not tracked that in thesurvey that I've done. But
anecdotally, what I see, and Ikind of feel like this is an
issue that we have more on theside of the administrator is
that we have these perceptionsthat the projects that we
receive, that have these bigticket budgets assigned to them
(26:46):
feel that you have to have aMasters or terminal degree in
the arts in order to executethose projects at that level.
And the perception, even even ifyou'll see artists that are non
white, come to the table withadvanced degrees, their
perception is that you still canexecute at that level. But then
(27:06):
you're not getting enoughcommissions and then because you
don't have commissions, youcan't say, these are my past
projects. So that's, that'sanother issue that we have and
when I when we talk about sortof broadening our perspective,
our sense of aesthetic, it'sreally, it's also attacking that
bias that only you know, whitemales with Masters or MFA or
(27:30):
degrees in architecture, areable to, you know, manage a
project with a six figurebudget. And sometimes I think,
you know, what we'll see alsowhen art when arts organizations
are attempting to createequitable strategies and bring
in artists of color into thispublic art process. So they'll
create these programs that will,you know, relegate these very
(27:52):
tiny budgets, these 1000 $50,000budgets for murals or things
like that artists of color and Idon't think that that's helpful,
either.
Stephanie Eche (28:02):
Yeah, it's something that is very
frustrating to me both as acurator and project manager of
public art projects, mostly inthe private sector, and also as
an artist, that I'll look up anartist that did a really amazing
public art project, who might bea person of color, right? And
always, like, Oh, they got anMFA at Yale or, RISD or IKA, or
(28:27):
UCLA, like, it's always that,and it's so frustrating, because
I'm, I'm starting to do more CVresearch myself just in for my
own art career. But when I'mlooking for artists, there's
that, you know, how do you widenthe net of who you're going to
suggest for a project or look atfor inspiration for things or
(28:49):
for budgets and things likethat, if we continue to pick
people who come out of the samepedigree of art institutions?
And on the flip side, how do youconvince someone to trust
somebody with a really largebudget if they've never done
anything like that before? Andso there's just such a gap
between the the two to 50kmurals, the million dollar
(29:13):
budgets that are being done bythe same people who may be
people of color, but are, it's,you know, obviously, it's like a
very small fraction of people atthat level, who are people of
color, but they're, they still,I think, come from the same
background of, you know?
Amina Kache Cooper (29:32):
I, you know, I tend to think and this is sort
of a conversation that we'vebeen having is that if an artist
doesn't have experience, but hasan amazing concept, have
demonstrated the capacity tocreate or to complete a project
at a high level, give them theopportunity, because you know,
me, as a project manager, myrole is to support them, my role
(29:54):
is to help them and I feel likewe have to sort of just expand
the way that we think about whatour role is it's not just
managing budgets, it's providingsupport of all kinds to artists
that they can execute theseprojects, you know, so whether
that looks like pairing themwith a fabricator, helping them
obtain insurance, which I'vedone or helping them partner
(30:15):
with a more experienced artists,I think that those are great
strategies. I've also seen itthat where written into the, the
apple contract is that is asimulation where you have to
work with a local artist, theydon't have these programs, they
have the opportunity to put thatproject that they've worked on
(30:36):
with a more experienced artiston a resume. I think that we
have to be more creative and andreally broaden the the idea of
what our role is as public artadministrators as people, you
know, working in support in thearts, and really helping provide
capacity, building, and trainingsupport to artists so that we do
see more diversity in the field,but also understanding you know,
(30:59):
that they're, you know, one ofthe things that I tell people
when they're like, oh, you know,we'd love to find an African
American for this project, youknow, there are great programs,
and that we are in, you know,and sometimes even when we come
out of those programs, we stilldon't get the opportunity. So,
you know, I don't want to-there's also just to be this
sort of misconception thatyou're not going to see non
(31:20):
white artists or professionalswith advanced degrees or coming
out of great programs, becausewe will.
Stephanie Eche (31:26):
Yeah, that's kind of why I asked the class
question, because I thinksomething you said about like
artists showing that they'vecompleted a project at a high
level, it seems like sometimesthat's like having access to
funds to be able to do apersonal project at a high level
to do a personal project at all,after you get your MFA. And
instead of getting sucked backinto, you know, the daily grind
(31:47):
of just trying to pay your billsand working anywhere for money
art related or not, but notbeing able to put time and
effort into some substantialproject to be able to show that
you can do a project on yourown, and then it kind of becomes
like a self fulfilling prophecydoing art.
Amina Kache Cooper (32:03):
Stephanie, thats that's a great point. And
one of the things you know, Ireally hope to address that in
my interviews with artists, itjust really standing what the
barriers are that they have hadto overcome in order to be
successful in the field.
Stephanie Eche (32:16):
Yeah, I'm super curious what what everybody
says, and I'll probably ask youonce it's once-
Amina Kache Cooper (32:22):
No, I'm so looking forward to getting
completed and sharing theresults with everybody. Because
I really do hope that somethingin there that people can take
away to, you know, create moreequitable outcomes.
Stephanie Eche (32:35):
What are your thoughts on real estate
development and public art?
Amina Kache Cooper (32:38):
Oh, am I don't have great guides. And
only because only because I havebeen on a board that was
specific to public art andprivate development. And I don't
want to say that that experienceis typical for, you know, art
and in private development. ButI will say it seemed to me that
the developers were onlyinterested in having they're
(33:02):
ideas sort of rubber stamprigorousness in terms of
identifying artists same processto make sure there's done
equitably, and not the same sortof investment and making sure
that the project and the artworkis right for the space, but also
for the community. Andoftentimes, I feel like those
(33:23):
boards are just sort of rubberstamping, whatever it is that
developers want to do in orderto mirror there's always this
sort of a concession andexchange of entities. And so I,
I personally, I just feel likethat's such a clear thing, I
think it's the benefit of anydeveloper to, of course, art is
(33:43):
a great way to attract interestinto your project, and to ensure
that there's traffic by yourproject, but you also want to
maintain a relationship withthat community that you're,
you're building your project in.
So investing in local artists,creating a community based
process and selecting that art,that artist will create a better
vision for the project. Butsometimes what I've seen is a
(34:06):
developer who has an owner who'swealthy that says, oh, I can let
this artist I want this artistto be on the front of this
building, or, oh, my gosh,nobody knows this artist, or oh,
I've seen this here. Let's putit right here. And it's just
unfortunately, they're not thesame constraints that nonprofit
or local arts agencies have withme, you know, oftentimes, you're
(34:28):
free from those constraints. Andsometimes that can be a good
thing, you know, not have to gothrough sort of a bureaucratic
process in order to create workthat way, you know, you can say,
hey, I want to make sure thatthere's an African American
artist for this project. Sowe're going to do direct select,
sometimes it can be good, butwithout sort of that expertise
on the active developer, andyou're not-either way.
Stephanie Eche (34:53):
Yeah, I think all the examples you gave are
unfortunate. And that's part ofwhy I do what I do. Because it's
just, it was so frustrating whenI was in house at a real estate
developer. And it's just like,so random, but it's not random.
It's it's exactly what you said,it's someone they collect, and
they want to get their personalcollections. So they're willing
to put in that investment forthe public piece, or yeah, just
(35:16):
they happen to know this randomperson who makes art. It's
awesome. So it's beeninteresting to try and push the
other direction, and also alwaysstarting with what is actually
going on in this place, like,what, what is already here, and
who can we actually support andcultivate for an something that
I've seen, that's kind ofinteresting, I was just like, or
(35:37):
what I'd like to get to, with myclients, and that I love seeing
with other projects and otherareas is you can fund smaller
level things and then build upso that those artists in the
community are able to take onthe larger project, and both
sides are more comfortable withit. But on the flip side, I also
totally understand, like, I'mnot gonna take any money from
(35:59):
real estate developers ever. Andso I I like I'm a democratic
socialist, like I, I'm, like,anti capitalist, and so I, but I
also need to make money. So it'sjust like this weird being stuck
in that middle. And I see, toyour point, like one of the
frustrations I've had as anartist in applying for things is
that you have to live in a placefor a certain amount of time,
you have to have a statement ofproof of living there. What if
(36:21):
you're not on a lease, likethere have been plenty of times,
I just, I don't have anythingthat shows that I live
somewhere, or I haven't livedthere long enough, or I don't
meet these random could they'renot random, but they're
credentials that have beenpassed down that I think
sometimes were intentionallytrying to keep certain people
out of being able to make art inthe in the area. So when private
funders are willing to just putup the money and they don't,
(36:44):
they don't really care how ithappens. If somebody can go in
and make it happen in a moreequitable way, I think that's
good. It's just, I agree withyou that we need to have more
policies that actually make surethat people are doing that.
Amina Kache Cooper (36:55):
Yeah. And, and I understand it, because,
you know, bringing the art onsite, that's the fun thing. You
know, like, if I'm a real estatedeveloper, that's the one thing
that I do want to have my handin, right. But I just feel like
you always need to have expertsat the table. And a great art
advisor or just a communitymember, being a part of those
(37:16):
conversations and decisions isreally helpful. Because the
other thing too, is that thepublic is not going to make the
distinction between this is artin and private property, and
this is art for the public.
They're just going to see artoutdoors, and assume that maybe
either the city or the county,you know, manage our process
when they did. So I just feellike it's always best to, you
(37:38):
know, you always want to meetyour own organizational client
goals. But, you know, if it's,if it's work that has to
interface with the public,whether or not they're your
customer or not, it's justconsiderate is the appropriate
and smart thing to do. Thatthat, that it's a cohesive part
of a broader landscape.
Stephanie Eche (38:01):
Definitely.
Are you a real estate developerlooking for a unique amenity for
you (38:06):
10 Tips For Commissioning A Site-Specific Artwork at our
website, distillcreative.com.
How did you start AMEWA FineArt?
Amina Kache Cooper (38:19):
When I came out of grad school, I finally
landed on like what I wanted todo professionally and that was
managed art collections forbusinesses, for individuals for
corporations. And so my endgoal, like I just felt like the
last thing that I would do afterworking for other people was
occurring my own business, myown practice. So even when I was
(38:42):
employed by other people, I wasstill sort of sort of setting
the stage for that, you know, soI started an LLC, I gave it a
name. And, you know, there'sthis book by, I believe it's
Robert Ferris Thompson. And it'scalled Clash of the Spirit. And
he's talking about the theAfrican traditions in
(39:04):
contemporary African Americanart. And that term is an
artistic term that has arelationship to black
aesthetics. So that's why Iselected that name. Because even
in my professional work, Ialways want to consider black
artists or aesthetics that arenon Western, non traditional,
because that's like that's, thatis how you're going to get a
(39:24):
great collection is consideringmulticultural voices. So anyway,
started an LLC, didn't expectreally to have to activate it at
all. If I got opportunities towrite if I got, you know, sort
of programs, I would I justthought that that would be a
vehicle to pass it throughthere. And then with with COVID
(39:45):
I found myself you know, sort ofself employed and having these
increasing opportunities to workon my own, and it's really been
wonderful. So I've been able tocontinue to do project
management for CLT airport justthrough my own business. And I
also I write my fellowship andother opportunities working with
individual clients, I helped agood friend of mine acquire some
(40:08):
work and frame it, which is justsuch a delight when I'm able to
do all of that through mybusiness now. So I'm just hoping
to just get more opportunitiesto do planning more project
management opportunities. AndI'll work with indivisible
public artists, just to sharesort of what I know in terms of,
if you want to commission, thisis the way to do it, you're
trying to project this is howyou should do it and not and I
(40:31):
don't necessarily want to dothat as a part of my practice.
But I just I want to work withmore artists that are interested
in breaking into this field andthis provides them with best
practices and ideas and thensupport, even if it's just a
phone call. I'm really, reallyhappy with the way things are
going.
Stephanie Eche (40:50):
That sounds great. It's, it's amazing that
you've just kind of, I mean,you've been doing this work for
a long time, but to be able tolaunch and do it on your own
terms as your own business isreally awesome.
Amina Kache Cooper (41:02):
I'm hoping it's helpful. I just feel like
you know, our field, we justneed more more expertise, more
expertise, that's not tied to anorganization that's free to just
work with different clients andshare best practices. And, you
know, that has, you know, adifferent perspective, you know,
as an African American womanthat worked in public art, you
(41:23):
know, sort of rarefied air,there are a few of us across the
country in this space. Andthere's not a no word problem,
as I mean, there's a lot ofopportunities, you know, and I
just, I just feel like, it'sgreat work to be doing and a
great service that we provide toour community.
Stephanie Eche (41:38):
How do you work with artists currently?
Amina Kache Cooper (41:40):
Yeah, well, so I've worked with artists as a
project manager. So essentially,what I do is when we bring an
artist on board to create work,and when they're under contract,
and even before they're undercontract, I'm helping to make
sure that they're that theprocess that selects that brings
them on board is equitable, makesure that they have the things
that they need. And then whenthey're under contract, I'm
(42:00):
managing, you know, repeaterbudgets, I give them the
autonomy to create their ownbudgets, but I just make sure
that that's on track, and thatthere's enough contingency to
manage the communication betweenthe artist and the client, in
the in the commissioning body,but also, the contractor, the
engineers, construction team,the contractor, team
subcontractors, make sure thatthe artist has all the
(42:22):
information that they need inorder to do work that is going
to be appropriate for the site.
So nothing fails, nothing andeverything, all the engineering,
all the sketches, all designsare approved. And then taking
all of those steps from theconcept to their schematic
design or final design, theirtheir final drawings, all of
(42:43):
that is approved and routedthrough the right people to our
clients. And the people thatalso that are ultimately the
funders or visioning body isfinding all of that information
from the artist to the verydisparate teams. And all of the
approvals are, are done, and aresuccessful in that the artist
(43:04):
has what they need to be able tomove in fabrication and
ultimately installation. And indoing that, particularly for an
airport that is that willinclude a lot of security
clearances and badges and thingslike that. So it complicates
things. But it's it makes it somuch more exciting to just
people to work in a dynamicfield like that.
Stephanie Eche (43:24):
It's fun. Yeah, those parts of things are fun,
even though it's like a lot ofproblem solving.
Amina Kache Cooper (43:31):
A lot of problem solving a lot of fire,
putting out-ing. And lot of whatyou have to really just speak
different languages. You have tobe able to talk to the artists.
Talk to the guys with theconstruction hats on. You know,
sometimes it's like night andday.
Stephanie Eche (43:45):
Yeah, I'm always kind of surprised by how rare it
is for someone to have those twoskills because it's something
that I know like people who Italk to you do or who I work
with often do like, obviouslyyou do and but then when I talk
to artists, sometimes they'relike, oh my gosh, thank
goodness, you were there forthis thing. And it's like what
it was just, that's just youjust have to deal with lots of
(44:08):
different personalities andbackgrounds. But then on the
flip side, it's like knowinglike, okay, this person is
probably going to react this wayor this person doesn't have any
idea what they're talking about.
So I can't just be like, blah,blah, blah, blah, blah, and then
expect them to, or clearly thisperson, because of the
bureaucracy of the site is notaware of what's going on. So you
have to explain everything.
Amina Kache Cooper (44:31):
it's such a fun challenge, it really is. And
I think, you know, keeping inmind that everybody has the same
goal of just making somethingsuccessful. And making the
landscape the site whatever lookgood. The artist wants to look
good architect wants to lookgood. Everybody has the same
goal. They just might speakdifferent language and have
different ideas. But gettingpeople on that same page is
(44:53):
really fulfilling.
Stephanie Eche (44:55):
And you probably get to make a lot of people's
days happy when it's done. Whenyou see like the end goal and
you know, even if it's someoneyou just walked by that day,
especially if it's at some what-where like an airport where
there's so many people going by.
Amina Kache Cooper (45:08):
It's, you know, it's so funny, you know, a
lot of the projects that I'mworking on, are like five years
in the making. I get a lot lessof those moments and more of a,
like, a headache moment. Youknow, because these aren't,
it's, it takes long range longterm planning to get this done.
So that gratification is, is somuch delayed. gratification,
(45:33):
this is not the space for you.
But it's really nice, when yousee start to see stuff come out
of the shop, see it beingfabricated. And when it's
installed and dedicated, it'samazing.
Stephanie Eche (45:44):
Yeah, I want to go see some of the projects that
you've worked on once they'recompleted.
Amina Kache Cooper (45:49):
Yeah, give it another couple years. Another
couple of years, there's so manyprojects, and I'm like, okay,
well, in 2024, people are gonnabe really excited.
Stephanie Eche (46:00):
It is an interesting thing, where,
especially with social media,it's like what do you share If
it's a spreadsheet that you'vebeen working on for a long time,
or just, you know, it's so muchof it is not tangible, which
kind of goes back to also publicart that isn't actually
tangible, as well, as anotherexample of that, I guess, I have
so many more questions. But I'm,I'm so happy with being able to
(46:21):
talk to you.
Amina Kache Cooper (46:23):
It's so great to speak with you to
Stephanie, I you know, I reallyappreciate this conversation.
And thank you for your time andjust you're asking the right
questions. And you know, anyopportunity to talk about this
work is I love so thank you.
It's been a pleasure.
Stephanie Eche (46:37):
Thank you so much for being a guest. And I
think people are really going toenjoy hearing from your
perspective, because we haven'tactually had a lot of art
administrators besides when Italk about what I'm doing. And I
think it's super important toknow, like, there are really
great people doing this work.
Amina Kache Cooper (46:53):
Its so behind the scenes, you'll never,
you'll never know. And andthat's great. You know, I always
want the the artist and theclient like this is your thing.
I just helped facilitate it. Andthis isn't my project.
Stephanie Eche (47:06):
How can our listeners find you online?
Amina Kache Cooper (47:08):
So my website is amewafineart.com.
A-M-E-W-A fine art.com. And onInstagram, you can find me
@BlackMonuments on Instagram.
And if you're interested indiscovering works by African
American designers, andarchitects and public spaces,
make sure you follow that page.
Stephanie Eche (47:27):
Thank you so much for everything you're
working on. And thank you againfor being a guest, and I'll be
following you on the internet.
Amina Kache Cooper (47:34):
Awesome.
It's so nice to meet you,Stephanie. Thank you so much.
It's been a pleasure.
Stephanie Eche (47:43):
Thanks for listening to this episode of
First Coat. If you'd like thispodcast, please leave a review.
Make sure to subscribe to theFirst Coat Podcast wherever you
listen to podcasts. And followus on Instagram
@firstcoatpodcast or@distillcreative. First Coat was
a production of my companyDistill Creative. Check us out
at distillcreative.com
Welcome to First Coat, where we explore public
realm art, how it's made and whyit matters. I'm your host
Stephanie Eche an artist andentrepreneur based in Brooklyn,
New York. I run Distill Creativewhere I curate and produce site
specific art projects for realestate developers. I focus on
creating more equitable andinclusive projects, and I want
to get more exposure for theartists and developers doing
(00:24):
this work. This week on FirstCoat we have Amina Cooper, Amina
is a curator, public artsconsultant and public art policy
strategist and founder of AMEWAFine Art. She has over a decade
of experience working with fineart and public art collections
for leading municipalities,museums and galleries in
Washington, DC and Boston,Massachusetts. She currently
(00:45):
manages over $3 million andlarge scale public art projects
as a public art consultant. Sheis also the inaugural forecast
change lab research fellow andinitiated a broad survey of
black public art she created andruns the Instagram account Black
Monuments. In this episode, wetalk about how to create more
equity in the public art spaceand learn from Amina's
experience leading large scalepublic art projects. Here's our
(01:05):
conversation.
Welcome to First Coat. Thank youso much for being a guest today.
Can you tell us a little bitabout who you are and what you
do?
Amina Kache Cooper (01:14):
Sure, and thank you so much for having me.
My name is Amina. I amoriginally from Atlanta, Georgia
and I am a public art consultantand fine art advisor. And I have
my own practice, it's calledAmewa Fine Art and what I do for
clients is help them manage theproject management piece of
coordinating a public artproject. But I additionally work
(01:38):
with individuals and groups thatare interested in either
acquiring a collection of eitherpublic or fine art and also to
manage that collection oncethey've established it.
Stephanie Eche (01:50):
That sounds awesome. Right up our alley? How
would you define arts in publicspace?
Amina Kache Cooper (01:57):
That's a great question. And I think that
that definition is one that hasevolved over time. In my view,
public art is any expression anyartistic cultural, creative
expression, in the public realm,outdoors or in community spaces
that is created, either inpartnership or in dialogue with
(02:18):
community or with the communityor landscape as a consideration.
And I think for a long time,we've typically thought of that
as bronze sculptures or, orwhatever major stainless steel
piece that you're seeingcommissioned in the 70s in front
of City Hall. But I think thatdefinition have expanded and
broadened thankfully, to includeyou know, all types of materials
(02:40):
and media and also work that'snot permanent, that's temporary,
and works in processes thatdon't typically yield anything
tangible. It's a really excitingtime to be in the field.
Stephanie Eche (02:52):
In an interview you did with Engaging Local
Government Leaders, you talked alot about growing up near an
airport, and how that was yourfirst experience of public art.
Can you tell us a little bitmore about that?
Amina Kache Cooper (03:03):
Yeah. So it's it's so interesting now
that I'm you know, my primaryclient right now is an airport
in Charlotte, you know, mymother retired from Delta
Airlines. And I think shestarted working there the year
that I was born and worked therefor 20 years. So one of the
perks of being you know, adependent of somebody that works
for an airline is typically youget to fly for free or at a
(03:23):
significantly reduced cost. So,you know, I've been flying for
as long as I remember. And I'vehad the great fortune of being
able- being able to travel allacross the world. So my earliest
memories of public art is goingthrough the old old terminals at
Hartsfield. And there was thisneon work by Stephen Antonakos.
(03:45):
And so after going throughsecurity, you go down these
stairs that take you onto atrain that will take you to the
terminals. There's thesebeautiful, neon, super 80s style
beyond artworks, and I justremember them catching my eye.
And every time I traveled islooking forward to seeing them.
Because it just was it was sitedat such a location in the
(04:05):
airport where you knew if yousaw them, you were getting ready
to start your journey. So I'llyou know, unfortunately, they
didn't stop those words thatmake way for advertising, which
is it's, you know, that's whathappens. But that was my
earliest memory of public artwithout really recognizing that
it was public art.
Stephanie Eche (04:23):
How did you first start doing work in public
space?
Amina Kache Cooper (04:27):
It was interesting, and it was, you
know, kind of a struggle to sortof get to this role, which is a
role that I've always wanted.
I've always wanted to work inthe arts, but in a more broadly
accessible capacity. I studiedfine art and photography at
Howard University andjournalism, and I originally
thought that I would be thisreally cool fine art
photographer, and then Iinterned with a commercial
(04:50):
commercial photographer, andthat just totally killed all of
the joy that I had for it. So Ithought, okay, I need to work on
the other end and be anadministrator so went to Boston
University got an ArtsManagement degree, and ended up
working after a couple of rolesat a local arts agency. And my
background in journalism causedme to come into the role of
(05:11):
managing communications, andalso doing grant writing. So I
fell into this role as a grantwriter and a fundraiser, I was
working with my organization totry to acquire one of the NAR
town grants. And just thatprocess of gathering
information, interviewingcommunity, gathering documents,
(05:32):
researching, putting together aproposal, specifically around a
public art project in anunderserved, sort of
historically neglected part ofthe state caused me to have more
of an understanding of publicart. And I think it helped put
me on the radar of RCO. So bythe time we got our grant, the
former public arts managertransitioned out of the
(05:57):
organization, and she was like,"Was this something that you
would want to do?" And I waslike, "Absolutely, I've been
waiting for you to ask me that."So that's how I came into public
art and started managing thecollection that the county had
acquired since the 70s. So it'sreally broad collection of
outdoor sculpture, but also workon paper or some paper that had
been in the city buildings andcounty buildings that I was
(06:19):
responsible for managing andfiguring out the next steps for.
Stephanie Eche (06:25):
Would you say you do a lot of research based
on whatever project you'reworking on? Or do you depend on
research that you had as anundergrad? What's the continued
learning life, like for you?
Amina Kache Cooper (06:36):
Honestly, I would say, the learning that
occurred for me at Howard, andat Boston University,
particularly around nonprofitmanagement is just it's so
integral to the work that I donow, because a lot of public art
management is understandingbudgets, understanding the
structures of how businesses andnonprofit enterprises work,
(06:59):
undertaking city funding, countyfunding and basic accounting.
And then, you know, mybackground sort of studying to
be this fine artist helped mereally work better with artists
today, because I understand sortof their concerns their fears,
or capacities, and I just, Ifeel like I communicate better
with artists, because I havetraining as an artist.
Stephanie Eche (07:19):
What's the role of photography in both preparing
of a public art project andalso, when assessing the
project?
Amina Kache Cooper (07:26):
You know, I don't think so much that my
like, I know that I use myphotography degree, generally,
it comes into play when I'mevaluating portfolios, or I'm
thinking about how we want todocument work. But it was just
really sort of the broadtraining that I had studying
Fine Arts and a Howard you hadlike, I had a photo degree, but
(07:47):
I was studying ceramics andstill cleaning and all of those
things. And I think that that'sprimarily the main thing that
helped me work with artists inthis role, because it's really
being able to work with anartist, and then your client
group, and then trying to findlike a bridge between those two
very different, sometimes verydifferent styles of
communication, and thenhierarchy of needs.
Stephanie Eche (08:11):
How do you approach curating for art and
public space?
Amina Kache Cooper (08:14):
Well, for me, you know, I- the public art
is that the word public is justfirst and foremost. So I try to
take a backseat, and reallythink about what the needs of
the community are and what theneeds of the client are, and
figure out how we can meet bothof those needs. And then also to
address needs and concerns thatmaybe haven't been articulated,
(08:37):
or weren't even understood asneeds or concern. Generally,
what we, you know, a sort of abest practice for the field, is
to create either a panel or agroup of decision makers and
policymakers that represent bothsort of artistic expertise, but
also are composed of folks thatare actually in the community.
(08:59):
So when we're looking andevaluating artists, we have
their perspectives as acommunity member saying, Hey,
this is what we need, we wouldlove to see this, you know,
we're super drawn to that. Andthen you also have client
representation saying, okay,yes, this would work we can, we
can get behind this. And thenyou're starting that
communication and a dialoguethat really has to sort of play
out throughout the entireprocess of commissioning, you
(09:21):
know, the installation. Andthen, you know, generally once
we selected an artist based oncommunity and play client input,
and then our expertise as theadministrators, we still go back
to a community oriented processwhere the artist that you
selected and we bring on boardis able to either have meetings,
community meetings, charettes.
However, that process looks likefor them and luckily artists are
(09:41):
so they're just the brillianceis that they're able to do that
in a really new, unique way. Soeither, you know, sometimes
they'll create our community andthen learn about community
interest and communities thatway, but the idea and the hope
is that they're able tointegrate those community voices
into the final product withoutreally sort of impinging on what
the artists desires are. Andthen my role as a public art
(10:04):
administrator, as a projectmanager, is to make sure that
the artist has the support thatthey need, that the community
voice is not lost throughouttheir creative process. And then
I also generally like andthinking about curating public
space, I like to think about whois presented and how we can best
compliment and makecomprehensive, you know, that
(10:26):
work that is then creating abody of work, you know, you're
adding to an existingcollection. So I'm thinking,
what materials haven't we seen,which community neighborhoods
have not had work cited? So thenwe might focus on that
community, we might focus on aparticular culture or community
neighborhood that really hasn'thad an opportunity to see
(10:47):
themselves reflected. So thoseare the primary considerations.
But as you can see, there are amyriad of considerations. But
for me, community, theresidents, the people that have
to live in that space are theprimary.
Stephanie Eche (11:00):
And how do you assess which communities haven't
been represented or haven't beenseen in the public art, or
general?
Amina Kache Cooper (11:09):
A lot of that is, that's where the data
and the collection and theresearch comes in, I had the
good fortune, really sort of atthe start of my career in public
art, managing a collection, andworking with the right
consultants that, you know, didassessments of the collection.
So in order to say, okay, thisis what we should do, you have
to really look at the collectionas it is and say, okay, this is
(11:31):
what- this is where we'veinstalled work. This is the
term, the period of time inwhich we've created these works,
this is the majority of materialthat we've used. And then just
in terms in the same way thatyou'll look at sort of funding
and see, you'll see patterns andfinding which communities which
organizations have gottenfunding over a period of time,
it's the same way with publicart, if you have records that
(11:52):
she can rely upon. And even ifyou don't have records, you just
go out into the community andsee like, okay, well, we have a
lot of works in this in thisurban center in this downtown
area. But these, you know, ruralcommunities, often you'll see
deserts. So it's a combinationof looking at your records,
great collection managementpractices, but then also just,
you know, footwork just goingout into the community and
(12:14):
seeing what exists. And youknow, where the disparities are.
Stephanie Eche (12:18):
How do you keep track of all of this? Is there a
system that you use? Does itdepend on the client?
Amina Kache Cooper (12:24):
It depends on the client and agency, I've
been able to work it atorganizations that had
collection management system. Soin the same way that you would
have a database or, you know,honestly, sometimes it's even
just an Excel spreadsheet,unfortunately. Other times it's
more robust database systemswhere you can track when work is
created, when it's installed,who the artist is, in the same
(12:45):
way that museums have systemsthat track or because that's the
way that you know, you know,you're able to track
maintenance, we know whenmaintenance needs will pop up
when when the work is due forconservation, because generally
that's on a on a time cycle. Soyou're you have to have really
robust, or just any sort ofsystem to help manage that
because you know these works,they're not inexpensive,
(13:08):
generally. And it's aninvestment and you want to be
able to take care of yourinvestment over time.
Stephanie Eche (13:12):
In your blog post 'How Public Art Programs
Can Join the Movement AgainstPolice Brutality, White
Supremacy, and Anti Black Racismin American Arts,' you wrote,
"It is time to talk about thelack of diversity within our
public art commission's artists,selection panels, and other
public artists workforce, weneed to address the elitism
which we with which we dictateto communities, which artworks
(13:33):
are acceptable, and whichpersons and cultures are worth
affirming with monuments andbeautiful objects." And I'll put
that link in the show notes. Soeverybody can actually read the
article, because it's a greatarticle. How do you think art
programs, public art programs,and private funders can better
support artists andorganizations who are outside of
those that have beenhistorically funded?
Amina Kache Cooper (13:55):
Yeah, that is a great question. And as you
know, somebody that works inpublic art, but is also really
sort of sees herself as a, youknow, a policy strategist. I'm
continually- continuously askingmyself that question. And, you
know, looking for best practicesanswered, what I can say is that
that is, you know, somethingthat we have to continue to ask
(14:17):
ourselves, I think thebenchmark, the very basic thing
that we should do, that we stillhave not done is to sort of
break up the the homogenous-nessof our field, it's difficult to
bring in and accept differentviewpoints and perspectives when
there's, you know, one sort ofsolid voice in charge of sort of
(14:41):
ecosystem that is our field. Sowhen you look at the field of
public art administrators, Ibelieve it's almost 80%, white
and female. Similarly, in art,you know, because it's a
marriage between urban designersor planners, architects,
artists, government,policymakers, and there's not
enough diversity within thoseparticular fields so, there's
(15:02):
just a lack of one, there'sracial bias, there's a lack of
understanding of how to evendeal with diverse communities in
order to integrate them. Andthere's this sort of a
narrowness in terms of what weperceive as excellence, or even
our own sort of modes ofaesthetic sensibility, it's very
(15:22):
narrow. So until we're at thepoint where that those people's
making those decisions andselecting artists, and then you
know, the selecting whichneighborhoods get funding for,
like, the communities thatthey're serving, we're not we're
not going to get there. So I forme, I feel like that's that is
going to do is really justaddress how to, you know, combat
(15:44):
to- of racial bias, making surethat our fields and our
workforces are more culturallyand racially diverse. Once we do
that, we'll be able to take onother other sort of micro
strategies around, you know,best ways to engage in community
outreach and best ways tosupport artists. Because right
(16:04):
now, strategies are, they're notreally great. Like they're we
just have so much work to do,and integrating new voices,
intergenerational voices,multicultural voices into this
field, for me is the toppriority.
Stephanie Eche (16:21):
How do you influence that when you're
working on a project?
Amina Kache Cooper (16:25):
Well, one of the things that I've tried to do
at the really at the beginningof you know, we have funding, we
want to create art, what shouldwe do in making sure that, you
know, the Artist's ElectionCommittee, the, you know, the
boards, in a sense, are diverse.
So if I'm an administrator on aproject, what I'll do is say,
okay, listen, and I honestly, itwill be like, okay, we have a
(16:47):
couple of African Americans fromthe neighborhood where this work
is going to go, we have somefemale voices, we have some
LGBTQ voices, we have some, youknow, voices that represent
Western and European traditions,how, do we have a table that
looks like our communities, andit's just it's such, it's easier
to work from there. And ifthat's something that you can't
(17:12):
do, as an administrator, youknow, another strategy that I've
done partnership with anotherleader that I worked with, is
saying, hey, this work is 100%,white, you know, staff is the
are the only persons of color atthis table. So we need to, we
need to create new policies andthose policies included during
(17:32):
that the the board wasculturally diverse. And that
meant that the people who wereon that board had to leave. So
you know, sometimes you have toreally just go into, you have to
write the rules, in order to me,because a lot of a lot of the
time these organizations, andentities are operating under
practices that were created.
(17:55):
Many, many moons ago, many yearsago, when, you know, the concept
of cultural or racial equity wasjust sort of like this far flung
theory that nobody cared about,you know, a lot of organizations
are operating under thesepolicies that haven't really
been revisited since the 70s,since the 60s. So that's always
a really great place to startfor me, as somebody that works
(18:17):
in policy and strategic planningis to say, hey, do you have
guidelines, you have policies?
And is it time to revisit them?
Stephanie Eche (18:22):
So taking a look at the foundation of the
organization? backwards, beforeyou can go forward?
Amina Kache Cooper (18:28):
Exactly, you know, because a lot of the
times, you know, the culture,and the values are, you know,
they come out of these strategicplanning documents these mission
statements, the valuestatements, and until you sort
of realign that you're not goingto see those outcomes that, you
know, will produce moreequitable outcomes for
communities.
Stephanie Eche (18:48):
It seems like there's a I don't want to call
it a trend. But it does seem alittle bit like a trend of
organizations trying to be moreequitable, or being more diverse
and having an outside consultantcome in and like fix everything.
How do you think that's beengoing? or what have you seen,
just generally with with that?
Amina Kache Cooper (19:08):
You know, I feel like that is, it's a
process that a lot oforganizations need to go
through. But I think foranything like that can be
successful. It takes one strongleadership at the organization
and from the AD or the director,to your volunteers, to your
board of directors. So if thereis not a will there, then you
(19:32):
need to change the leadershipand then recompose your board
until that is a value becauseyou can bring in a consultant
all day to create best, youknow, best practices and to
create recommendations, but ifthe will isn't there, and it's,
it's generally or it's just, youknow, a thing that we were going
to see that we do so that we canget this fund, you know,
ecause we know that grant- younow, grantors are funding these
(19:54):
nitiatives. It's not going toe successful it's going to be
ard.
Stephanie Eche (19:58):
How would you define equity in public art?
Amina Kache Cooper (20:01):
Oh, that's a great question. You know, for
me, you know, I just I thinkabout my experiences, managing
collections, and seeing thesesame artists in the records as
having executed these worksacross across decades, equity in
public art means that everybodyin the community has an
opportunity wanting to engagewith art in the public realm.
(20:24):
So, you know, we're not justcreating these pockets, where
we're only placing public art inwhite affluent neighborhoods
means that every neighborhoodgets to have public art in their
community. And it also meansthat artists that are, you know,
non white, that are multigenerational, you know, from
different schools, differentbackgrounds, are able to
(20:46):
participate in the process asartists, as community members
who get to choose and selectart, you know, that everybody is
a part of that ecosystem, andthat the people who live in
those communities get to seethemselves in their values in
their desires, aspirationsreflected in the art community.
So for me, that is what equityis that everybody is, you know,
(21:06):
appropriately represented at thetable.
Stephanie Eche (21:11):
Are you an artist? Submit your portfolio at
distillcreative.com/artists,you'll get on our Distilled
Directory, our artists database,and be considered for upcoming
art commissions.
Are there any places whetherthat's a city or a town or an
organization that you think aredoing this well?
Amina Kache Cooper (21:31):
Well, for one, I will say that a lot of
times we live with public art,and we don't recognize the full
guard. You know, I love seeingart in part, but I also love
seeing art in transit. And Iguess I'm biased because I'm,
you know, I've been working withan airport for a while, but I
feel like those sorts ofunlikely places are really going
to see really cool examples ofpublic art, you know, I love and
(21:55):
I also love sort of thisintegration of art where people
are working and living andplaying, you know, I'm born and
raised in Atlanta. So I'mbiased, but I love the work that
they're doing at the AtlantaBeltline, where you know, people
can eat and sip and drink andbike ride, and there's artwork
that that's across all budgetsthat they can see and enjoy. I
(22:16):
love the work that they're doingat LaGuardia Airport. I mean,
you know, I, I just really lovebeautiful, monumental works by
diverse artists. But I also I'mreally increasingly interested
in sort of this idea of socialpractice. I am a longtime fan of
Rick Lowe and the work thatthey're doing with a project row
houses in Houston, I love thatmodel of saying, Hey, you know,
(22:40):
we're going to build it, sincenobody wants to fund it, we're
going to manage the artwork inour community, we're going to
support our community ofartists. And, you know, I was
recently working in Charlotte.
And similarly, sort of like thenewer version of that or new
iteration of that is a projectcalled rolled up ELT managed by
really just brilliant public artadministrator, Jessica Moss,
(23:00):
where she's flipping, sort ofrehabbing these under utilized
homes, creating spaces whereartists can have- of have a
fellowship here, where they'reintegrated into the community,
they get to learn what thecommunity's issues are they
create projects based on sort ofthat relationship, that they're
building the community overtime. So I'm going to list a few
of the things that I'm that I'mlooking at that I really love.
Stephanie Eche (23:24):
Thank you. I'll put links for all of those in
the show notes so people cantake a look at those, those
projects and ongoingopportunities to see really
great public art. How do yousuggest measuring equity and in
a public art project, orprogram?
Amina Kache Cooper (23:40):
Yeah. So that kind of leads me to this
really wonderful fellowshipopportunity that I've been
fortunate to, to forecast publicart in their chain lab
fellowship. One of the thingsthat I kept hearing this
reoccurring recurring theme frommy colleagues is that, hey, we
want to commissioned moreartists of color, we want to
(24:03):
work with more black artists,but we don't know how to find
them. That led me to createthis, you know, Instagram page,
Black Monuments, where all I dois just post public artworks
created by people of Africandescent. And then that led me to
really think about how do we getmore public works created by
black artists and particularly,but then I also just focus on
(24:25):
black artists one because I'mblack, but also I just feel like
anything that's going to workfor black folks also helps serve
Latinx, Asian, and thenindigenous communities as well.
Those strategies can also arejust, you know, applicable as
well. So my fellowship sort ofproposal is really to serve a
field of entities that arecommissioning art and seeing
(24:50):
them what their fundingstructures are, you know, how do
they manage their panels orartist selection panels, how
often are they commissioningworks by black artists and its
service serving their existingcollection and saying how many
of these other collection areactually created by black people
and asking them for theirsuccess stories, hopefully, what
I'll find just in the servingprocess are trends to say, you
(25:12):
know, for example, you know,entities that have that rely
primarily on funding fromfoundations, rather than
individuals see more success incommissioning artists of color,
for example, I'm trying to tiethese outcomes to specific
policy decisions that are tiedto the overall management of
public art programs. So I'mrelying on that sort of, you
(25:34):
know, hard data. But I also amin the process of this
fellowship is I wanted one onone interviews with artists,
black artists, just ask themabout their experiences, to see
you know, how we can improve ourrelationships with artists,
black artists of color, from astandpoint of, you know,
(25:55):
policymaker, because often, youknow, we're just so happy to get
these opportunities that will,we will put up with a lot of
things that we shouldn't put upwith, I really wanted to get
those both perspectives orperspectives of the funder and
the commissioner and theperspective of the artists that
it has to navigate thesepolicies in order to create
these works. Hopefully, bycombining those different types
(26:15):
of data, I'll be able to seesome trends and create best
practices for the fields that wecan use.
Stephanie Eche (26:19):
How much of the class status of the artist are
you tracking?
Amina Kache Cooper (26:23):
That's a great question. You know, I have
I have not tracked that in thesurvey that I've done. But
anecdotally, what I see, and Ikind of feel like this is an
issue that we have more on theside of the administrator is
that we have these perceptionsthat the projects that we
receive, that have these bigticket budgets assigned to them
(26:46):
feel that you have to have aMasters or terminal degree in
the arts in order to executethose projects at that level.
And the perception, even even ifyou'll see artists that are non
white, come to the table withadvanced degrees, their
perception is that you still canexecute at that level. But then
(27:06):
you're not getting enoughcommissions and then because you
don't have commissions, youcan't say, these are my past
projects. So that's, that'sanother issue that we have and
when I when we talk about sortof broadening our perspective,
our sense of aesthetic, it'sreally, it's also attacking that
bias that only you know, whitemales with Masters or MFA or
(27:30):
degrees in architecture, areable to, you know, manage a
project with a six figurebudget. And sometimes I think,
you know, what we'll see alsowhen art when arts organizations
are attempting to createequitable strategies and bring
in artists of color into thispublic art process. So they'll
create these programs that will,you know, relegate these very
(27:52):
tiny budgets, these 1000 $50,000budgets for murals or things
like that artists of color and Idon't think that that's helpful,
either.
Stephanie Eche (28:02):
Yeah, it's something that is very
frustrating to me both as acurator and project manager of
public art projects, mostly inthe private sector, and also as
an artist, that I'll look up anartist that did a really amazing
public art project, who might bea person of color, right? And
always, like, Oh, they got anMFA at Yale or, RISD or IKA, or
(28:27):
UCLA, like, it's always that,and it's so frustrating, because
I'm, I'm starting to do more CVresearch myself just in for my
own art career. But when I'mlooking for artists, there's
that, you know, how do you widenthe net of who you're going to
suggest for a project or look atfor inspiration for things or
(28:49):
for budgets and things likethat, if we continue to pick
people who come out of the samepedigree of art institutions?
And on the flip side, how do youconvince someone to trust
somebody with a really largebudget if they've never done
anything like that before? Andso there's just such a gap
between the the two to 50kmurals, the million dollar
(29:13):
budgets that are being done bythe same people who may be
people of color, but are, it's,you know, obviously, it's like a
very small fraction of people atthat level, who are people of
color, but they're, they still,I think, come from the same
background of, you know?
Amina Kache Cooper (29:32):
I, you know, I tend to think and this is sort
of a conversation that we'vebeen having is that if an artist
doesn't have experience, but hasan amazing concept, have
demonstrated the capacity tocreate or to complete a project
at a high level, give them theopportunity, because you know,
me, as a project manager, myrole is to support them, my role
(29:54):
is to help them and I feel likewe have to sort of just expand
the way that we think about whatour role is it's not just
managing budgets, it's providingsupport of all kinds to artists
that they can execute theseprojects, you know, so whether
that looks like pairing themwith a fabricator, helping them
obtain insurance, which I'vedone or helping them partner
(30:15):
with a more experienced artists,I think that those are great
strategies. I've also seen itthat where written into the, the
apple contract is that is asimulation where you have to
work with a local artist, theydon't have these programs, they
have the opportunity to put thatproject that they've worked on
(30:36):
with a more experienced artiston a resume. I think that we
have to be more creative and andreally broaden the the idea of
what our role is as public artadministrators as people, you
know, working in support in thearts, and really helping provide
capacity, building, and trainingsupport to artists so that we do
see more diversity in the field,but also understanding you know,
(30:59):
that they're, you know, one ofthe things that I tell people
when they're like, oh, you know,we'd love to find an African
American for this project, youknow, there are great programs,
and that we are in, you know,and sometimes even when we come
out of those programs, we stilldon't get the opportunity. So,
you know, I don't want to-there's also just to be this
sort of misconception thatyou're not going to see non
(31:20):
white artists or professionalswith advanced degrees or coming
out of great programs, becausewe will.
Stephanie Eche (31:26):
Yeah, that's kind of why I asked the class
question, because I thinksomething you said about like
artists showing that they'vecompleted a project at a high
level, it seems like sometimesthat's like having access to
funds to be able to do apersonal project at a high level
to do a personal project at all,after you get your MFA. And
instead of getting sucked backinto, you know, the daily grind
(31:47):
of just trying to pay your billsand working anywhere for money
art related or not, but notbeing able to put time and
effort into some substantialproject to be able to show that
you can do a project on yourown, and then it kind of becomes
like a self fulfilling prophecydoing art.
Amina Kache Cooper (32:03):
Stephanie, thats that's a great point. And
one of the things you know, Ireally hope to address that in
my interviews with artists, itjust really standing what the
barriers are that they have hadto overcome in order to be
successful in the field.
Stephanie Eche (32:16):
Yeah, I'm super curious what what everybody
says, and I'll probably ask youonce it's once-
Amina Kache Cooper (32:22):
No, I'm so looking forward to getting
completed and sharing theresults with everybody. Because
I really do hope that somethingin there that people can take
away to, you know, create moreequitable outcomes.
Stephanie Eche (32:35):
What are your thoughts on real estate
development and public art?
Amina Kache Cooper (32:38):
Oh, am I don't have great guides. And
only because only because I havebeen on a board that was
specific to public art andprivate development. And I don't
want to say that that experienceis typical for, you know, art
and in private development. ButI will say it seemed to me that
the developers were onlyinterested in having they're
(33:02):
ideas sort of rubber stamprigorousness in terms of
identifying artists same processto make sure there's done
equitably, and not the same sortof investment and making sure
that the project and the artworkis right for the space, but also
for the community. Andoftentimes, I feel like those
(33:23):
boards are just sort of rubberstamping, whatever it is that
developers want to do in orderto mirror there's always this
sort of a concession andexchange of entities. And so I,
I personally, I just feel likethat's such a clear thing, I
think it's the benefit of anydeveloper to, of course, art is
(33:43):
a great way to attract interestinto your project, and to ensure
that there's traffic by yourproject, but you also want to
maintain a relationship withthat community that you're,
you're building your project in.
So investing in local artists,creating a community based
process and selecting that art,that artist will create a better
vision for the project. Butsometimes what I've seen is a
(34:06):
developer who has an owner who'swealthy that says, oh, I can let
this artist I want this artistto be on the front of this
building, or, oh, my gosh,nobody knows this artist, or oh,
I've seen this here. Let's putit right here. And it's just
unfortunately, they're not thesame constraints that nonprofit
or local arts agencies have withme, you know, oftentimes, you're
(34:28):
free from those constraints. Andsometimes that can be a good
thing, you know, not have to gothrough sort of a bureaucratic
process in order to create workthat way, you know, you can say,
hey, I want to make sure thatthere's an African American
artist for this project. Sowe're going to do direct select,
sometimes it can be good, butwithout sort of that expertise
on the active developer, andyou're not-either way.
Stephanie Eche (34:53):
Yeah, I think all the examples you gave are
unfortunate. And that's part ofwhy I do what I do. Because it's
just, it was so frustrating whenI was in house at a real estate
developer. And it's just like,so random, but it's not random.
It's it's exactly what you said,it's someone they collect, and
they want to get their personalcollections. So they're willing
to put in that investment forthe public piece, or yeah, just
(35:16):
they happen to know this randomperson who makes art. It's
awesome. So it's beeninteresting to try and push the
other direction, and also alwaysstarting with what is actually
going on in this place, like,what, what is already here, and
who can we actually support andcultivate for an something that
I've seen, that's kind ofinteresting, I was just like, or
(35:37):
what I'd like to get to, with myclients, and that I love seeing
with other projects and otherareas is you can fund smaller
level things and then build upso that those artists in the
community are able to take onthe larger project, and both
sides are more comfortable withit. But on the flip side, I also
totally understand, like, I'mnot gonna take any money from
(35:59):
real estate developers ever. Andso I I like I'm a democratic
socialist, like I, I'm, like,anti capitalist, and so I, but I
also need to make money. So it'sjust like this weird being stuck
in that middle. And I see, toyour point, like one of the
frustrations I've had as anartist in applying for things is
that you have to live in a placefor a certain amount of time,
you have to have a statement ofproof of living there. What if
(36:21):
you're not on a lease, likethere have been plenty of times,
I just, I don't have anythingthat shows that I live
somewhere, or I haven't livedthere long enough, or I don't
meet these random could they'renot random, but they're
credentials that have beenpassed down that I think
sometimes were intentionallytrying to keep certain people
out of being able to make art inthe in the area. So when private
funders are willing to just putup the money and they don't,
(36:44):
they don't really care how ithappens. If somebody can go in
and make it happen in a moreequitable way, I think that's
good. It's just, I agree withyou that we need to have more
policies that actually make surethat people are doing that.
Amina Kache Cooper (36:55):
Yeah. And, and I understand it, because,
you know, bringing the art onsite, that's the fun thing. You
know, like, if I'm a real estatedeveloper, that's the one thing
that I do want to have my handin, right. But I just feel like
you always need to have expertsat the table. And a great art
advisor or just a communitymember, being a part of those
(37:16):
conversations and decisions isreally helpful. Because the
other thing too, is that thepublic is not going to make the
distinction between this is artin and private property, and
this is art for the public.
They're just going to see artoutdoors, and assume that maybe
either the city or the county,you know, manage our process
when they did. So I just feellike it's always best to, you
(37:38):
know, you always want to meetyour own organizational client
goals. But, you know, if it's,if it's work that has to
interface with the public,whether or not they're your
customer or not, it's justconsiderate is the appropriate
and smart thing to do. Thatthat, that it's a cohesive part
of a broader landscape.
Stephanie Eche (38:01):
Definitely.
Are you a real estate developerlooking for a unique amenity for
you (38:06):
10 Tips For Commissioning A Site-Specific Artwork at our
website, distillcreative.com.
How did you start AMEWA FineArt?
Amina Kache Cooper (38:19):
When I came out of grad school, I finally
landed on like what I wanted todo professionally and that was
managed art collections forbusinesses, for individuals for
corporations. And so my endgoal, like I just felt like the
last thing that I would do afterworking for other people was
occurring my own business, myown practice. So even when I was
(38:42):
employed by other people, I wasstill sort of sort of setting
the stage for that, you know, soI started an LLC, I gave it a
name. And, you know, there'sthis book by, I believe it's
Robert Ferris Thompson. And it'scalled Clash of the Spirit. And
he's talking about the theAfrican traditions in
(39:04):
contemporary African Americanart. And that term is an
artistic term that has arelationship to black
aesthetics. So that's why Iselected that name. Because even
in my professional work, Ialways want to consider black
artists or aesthetics that arenon Western, non traditional,
because that's like that's, thatis how you're going to get a
(39:24):
great collection is consideringmulticultural voices. So anyway,
started an LLC, didn't expectreally to have to activate it at
all. If I got opportunities towrite if I got, you know, sort
of programs, I would I justthought that that would be a
vehicle to pass it throughthere. And then with with COVID
(39:45):
I found myself you know, sort ofself employed and having these
increasing opportunities to workon my own, and it's really been
wonderful. So I've been able tocontinue to do project
management for CLT airport justthrough my own business. And I
also I write my fellowship andother opportunities working with
individual clients, I helped agood friend of mine acquire some
(40:08):
work and frame it, which is justsuch a delight when I'm able to
do all of that through mybusiness now. So I'm just hoping
to just get more opportunitiesto do planning more project
management opportunities. AndI'll work with indivisible
public artists, just to sharesort of what I know in terms of,
if you want to commission, thisis the way to do it, you're
trying to project this is howyou should do it and not and I
(40:31):
don't necessarily want to dothat as a part of my practice.
But I just I want to work withmore artists that are interested
in breaking into this field andthis provides them with best
practices and ideas and thensupport, even if it's just a
phone call. I'm really, reallyhappy with the way things are
going.
Stephanie Eche (40:50):
That sounds great. It's, it's amazing that
you've just kind of, I mean,you've been doing this work for
a long time, but to be able tolaunch and do it on your own
terms as your own business isreally awesome.
Amina Kache Cooper (41:02):
I'm hoping it's helpful. I just feel like
you know, our field, we justneed more more expertise, more
expertise, that's not tied to anorganization that's free to just
work with different clients andshare best practices. And, you
know, that has, you know, adifferent perspective, you know,
as an African American womanthat worked in public art, you
(41:23):
know, sort of rarefied air,there are a few of us across the
country in this space. Andthere's not a no word problem,
as I mean, there's a lot ofopportunities, you know, and I
just, I just feel like, it'sgreat work to be doing and a
great service that we provide toour community.
Stephanie Eche (41:38):
How do you work with artists currently?
Amina Kache Cooper (41:40):
Yeah, well, so I've worked with artists as a
project manager. So essentially,what I do is when we bring an
artist on board to create work,and when they're under contract,
and even before they're undercontract, I'm helping to make
sure that they're that theprocess that selects that brings
them on board is equitable, makesure that they have the things
that they need. And then whenthey're under contract, I'm
(42:00):
managing, you know, repeaterbudgets, I give them the
autonomy to create their ownbudgets, but I just make sure
that that's on track, and thatthere's enough contingency to
manage the communication betweenthe artist and the client, in
the in the commissioning body,but also, the contractor, the
engineers, construction team,the contractor, team
subcontractors, make sure thatthe artist has all the
(42:22):
information that they need inorder to do work that is going
to be appropriate for the site.
So nothing fails, nothing andeverything, all the engineering,
all the sketches, all designsare approved. And then taking
all of those steps from theconcept to their schematic
design or final design, theirtheir final drawings, all of
(42:43):
that is approved and routedthrough the right people to our
clients. And the people thatalso that are ultimately the
funders or visioning body isfinding all of that information
from the artist to the verydisparate teams. And all of the
approvals are, are done, and aresuccessful in that the artist
(43:04):
has what they need to be able tomove in fabrication and
ultimately installation. And indoing that, particularly for an
airport that is that willinclude a lot of security
clearances and badges and thingslike that. So it complicates
things. But it's it makes it somuch more exciting to just
people to work in a dynamicfield like that.
Stephanie Eche (43:24):
It's fun. Yeah, those parts of things are fun,
even though it's like a lot ofproblem solving.
Amina Kache Cooper (43:31):
A lot of problem solving a lot of fire,
putting out-ing. And lot of whatyou have to really just speak
different languages. You have tobe able to talk to the artists.
Talk to the guys with theconstruction hats on. You know,
sometimes it's like night andday.
Stephanie Eche (43:45):
Yeah, I'm always kind of surprised by how rare it
is for someone to have those twoskills because it's something
that I know like people who Italk to you do or who I work
with often do like, obviouslyyou do and but then when I talk
to artists, sometimes they'relike, oh my gosh, thank
goodness, you were there forthis thing. And it's like what
it was just, that's just youjust have to deal with lots of
(44:08):
different personalities andbackgrounds. But then on the
flip side, it's like knowinglike, okay, this person is
probably going to react this wayor this person doesn't have any
idea what they're talking about.
So I can't just be like, blah,blah, blah, blah, blah, and then
expect them to, or clearly thisperson, because of the
bureaucracy of the site is notaware of what's going on. So you
have to explain everything.
Amina Kache Cooper (44:31):
it's such a fun challenge, it really is. And
I think, you know, keeping inmind that everybody has the same
goal of just making somethingsuccessful. And making the
landscape the site whatever lookgood. The artist wants to look
good architect wants to lookgood. Everybody has the same
goal. They just might speakdifferent language and have
different ideas. But gettingpeople on that same page is
(44:53):
really fulfilling.
Stephanie Eche (44:55):
And you probably get to make a lot of people's
days happy when it's done. Whenyou see like the end goal and
you know, even if it's someoneyou just walked by that day,
especially if it's at some what-where like an airport where
there's so many people going by.
Amina Kache Cooper (45:08):
It's, you know, it's so funny, you know, a
lot of the projects that I'mworking on, are like five years
in the making. I get a lot lessof those moments and more of a,
like, a headache moment. Youknow, because these aren't,
it's, it takes long range longterm planning to get this done.
So that gratification is, is somuch delayed. gratification,
(45:33):
this is not the space for you.
But it's really nice, when yousee start to see stuff come out
of the shop, see it beingfabricated. And when it's
installed and dedicated, it'samazing.
Stephanie Eche (45:44):
Yeah, I want to go see some of the projects that
you've worked on once they'recompleted.
Amina Kache Cooper (45:49):
Yeah, give it another couple years. Another
couple of years, there's so manyprojects, and I'm like, okay,
well, in 2024, people are gonnabe really excited.
Stephanie Eche (46:00):
It is an interesting thing, where,
especially with social media,it's like what do you share If
it's a spreadsheet that you'vebeen working on for a long time,
or just, you know, it's so muchof it is not tangible, which
kind of goes back to also publicart that isn't actually
tangible, as well, as anotherexample of that, I guess, I have
so many more questions. But I'm,I'm so happy with being able to
(46:21):
talk to you.
Amina Kache Cooper (46:23):
It's so great to speak with you to
Stephanie, I you know, I reallyappreciate this conversation.
And thank you for your time andjust you're asking the right
questions. And you know, anyopportunity to talk about this
work is I love so thank you.
It's been a pleasure.
Stephanie Eche (46:37):
Thank you so much for being a guest. And I
think people are really going toenjoy hearing from your
perspective, because we haven'tactually had a lot of art
administrators besides when Italk about what I'm doing. And I
think it's super important toknow, like, there are really
great people doing this work.
Amina Kache Cooper (46:53):
Its so behind the scenes, you'll never,
you'll never know. And andthat's great. You know, I always
want the the artist and theclient like this is your thing.
I just helped facilitate it. Andthis isn't my project.
Stephanie Eche (47:06):
How can our listeners find you online?
Amina Kache Cooper (47:08):
So my website is amewafineart.com.
A-M-E-W-A fine art.com. And onInstagram, you can find me
@BlackMonuments on Instagram.
And if you're interested indiscovering works by African
American designers, andarchitects and public spaces,
make sure you follow that page.
Stephanie Eche (47:27):
Thank you so much for everything you're
working on. And thank you againfor being a guest, and I'll be
following you on the internet.
Amina Kache Cooper (47:34):
Awesome.
It's so nice to meet you,Stephanie. Thank you so much.
It's been a pleasure.
Stephanie Eche (47:43):
Thanks for listening to this episode of
First Coat. If you'd like thispodcast, please leave a review.
Make sure to subscribe to theFirst Coat Podcast wherever you
listen to podcasts. And followus on Instagram
@firstcoatpodcast or@distillcreative. First Coat was
a production of my companyDistill Creative. Check us out
at distillcreative.com
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