June 7, 2022 • 54 mins
In this episode, Hanuman and our guest, Aaron Wolf discuss conflict management. He's a water resources geographer at Oregon State University and a trained mediator. Wolf facilitates dialogue between groups to help them find a shared vision around some big issues. Faith that gets to the core of our identity and water rights, which govern our very survival.
First the hosts discuss Dan Goleman's own experience with conflict, sharing how he had to manage a conflict with his department at Harvard before they would endorse his plan to submit a thesis on meditation.
Then we talk about Aaron Wolf's career mediating conflicts around the world. They discuss lessons learned from international conflicts over pollution, cultural faux pas, finding humility in conflict and what it feels like when there is change in the room,
We finish up with another installment of Ask Dan. This time the question is about how to love and know one's self.
Daniel Goleman talks about his Emotional Intelligence Courses, available at danielgolemanemotionalintelligence.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Kerry Seed (00:16):
Hi, everyone. This week on the show, we're starting
a series on conflict management.
And we're going to talk withAaron Wolf, who helps people
when they have problems with bigthings like water management
rights. And he said that onething he does when he brings
groups together who are having adispute,
has asked them three things theyhave in common. So today, I have
(00:39):
two volunteers here. What's yourname? Dan. And yours, Cora.
Okay. And Dan, your core isMother. Yes. Have the two of you
ever had a conflict with eachother? Definitely. All right.
And what are three things youhave in common, you can both
talk.
Cora (00:59):
We both are able to speak Chinese and write it.
Dan (01:04):
We're both female.
We're awesome.
Kerry Seed (01:12):
Thank you that didn't take long. And now let's
turn it over to the hosts whoare going to talk about conflict
management. Thanks for tuningin.
Daniel Goleman (01:29):
Welcome to first person plural, emotional
intelligence and beyond. I'mDaniel Goleman.
Hanuman Goleman (01:35):
I'm hanuman Goleman.
Elizabeth Solomon (01:37):
And I'm Elizabeth Solomon.
Hanuman Goleman (01:38):
Today we're beginning a series of interviews
about conflict management. Ourguest is Erin Wolf. Just so
everyone knows Aaron is my coololder cousin, and Dan's nephew.
Daniel Goleman (01:50):
And in fact, Aaron and my wife, Tara Bennett,
Coleman and I have been doingworkshops together on chemistry
of connection and some of thecore ideas in chemistry of
connection, Aaron has workedinto his own take on conflict
management.
Elizabeth Solomon (02:09):
Aaron, certainly a friend of the show,
I'm curious, are we gonna getinto a family reunion gone bad
today,
Hanuman Goleman (02:15):
actually, he's a guy that I always looked up to
on on visits to my grandmother'shouse, and now he's doing
fascinating work. He's a waterresources geographer at Oregon
State University and a trainedmediator that sounds a little
bit dry. But water resourcesbrings him into right into the
heart of some really fascinatinghuman experience. It gets. It
(02:39):
involves faith and water rights,which is about the very survival
of the people that he's workingwith.
Elizabeth Solomon (02:46):
And you've researched and written
extensively about conflictmanagement. And I'm curious from
your perspective, how Aaron'sfocus on shared values in this
interview aligns with whatyou've learned.
Daniel Goleman (02:58):
Well, one of the facets that Aaron uses in his
work is finding a way people canconnect. And this, of course, is
come straight out of chemistryof connection, that workshop
with Tara Bennett, Goleman. AndI, and actually, from her book,
mind whispering, but from mypoint of view, I think that
(03:22):
conflict management reallyhinges on the ability to find a
way to keep people linked, evenas they're disagreeing.
Elizabeth Solomon (03:31):
You know, Dan, one of the things that
comes to mind to me justthinking about, you know, your
early studies at Harvard, andyou choosing to pursue and
embark upon the study ofmeditation, for example, at a
time when that was kind of notpart of the Zeitgeist or the
conversation, particularly inacademia. And I'm curious to
hear, you know, sort of thinkingabout that as something that's
potentially conflictual. How didyou kind of use values or some
(03:55):
sort of shared vision in orderto, you know, quote, unquote,
kind of influence Harvard intosupporting you?
Daniel Goleman (04:03):
A while ago, long time ago, actually, when I
was at Harvard, I had decidedthat I would do my doctoral
dissertation on meditation.
However, my professors were verypsychoanalytic. And they thought
this was a really stupid idea.
And so I had to navigate a real,I had to manage conflict there
(04:24):
because they were against it.
And yet, I really felt stronglythat this is what I wanted to
do. So it seemed to me what Ineeded to do. What I needed to
do was to manage the conflict,you know, to it was a tense
situation, and that's a hallmarkof conflict management. But I
had to tactfully bring thedisagreement in the open and
(04:46):
come up with a solution thateveryone could endorse. And this
is of course, something leaderswho take the time to understand
different perspectives worktoward finding a common round in
which everyone could agree, butI didn't know that at the time,
I was just going blind, itseemed to me, I wanted to do
this, I had to get everyone toagree, I had to acknowledge that
(05:09):
they had, you know, a point ofview that I could see, but that
I didn't agree with it. And thatthere was a higher value that we
all could agree on, which was,hey, let's find some science to
apply here.
Hanuman Goleman (05:27):
You were in a school of psychology. So were
you also looking towards thefuture of, of this study and
thinking about how you'reexpanding the field? Well, one
Daniel Goleman (05:37):
of the things that kept me going, was that I
actually felt, you know, deep inmy heart, that meditation could
have value for many, manypeople. And that if there was a
study from Harvard, which iswhat it was, that showed that it
had some value, people might tryit out. I think that, at some
level, I felt that what weneeded was a culture shift in
(06:00):
values, that this could helpthat along. I had no idea that,
you know, decades later, thiswould be very commonplace. At
the time, it was very radical, Iwas a real outlier, taking a
risk. But I felt strongly thatthere could be benefit here for
lots of people.
Hanuman Goleman (06:21):
In our interview, Erin talks about some
cultures and faiths that havecreated systems and rituals for
helping a community heal fromconflict. Can you think of any
examples from your own researchof systems designed to manage
conflict? Especially? Well,
Daniel Goleman (06:40):
you know, this is something that I think modern
civilization has reached somelimits on. I think the European
Union is a beautiful example ofan ideal type of how we might
have an institution thattranscends local needs, local
boundaries, and local vision, weneed a lot more of that I can
(07:03):
think of traditional culturesthat have rituals for managing
conflict. And it's part of thesystem of that culture. For
example, the cooking Bushmanwhen someone has a disagreement
with someone else, they don'tspeak to that disagreement
specifically, but they spend allnight dancing and singing
(07:26):
together as a very healingeffect.
Elizabeth Solomon (07:29):
Beautiful.
Let's listen to the interviewwith Aaron Wolf.
Hanuman Goleman (07:34):
So it's really fun to be doing this with you.
Thank you for being here. Ofcourse, it's a pleasure kind of
mine. And as an introduction,actually don't know your title
and your professorship.
Aaron Wolf (07:45):
Yep. So I'm a Professor of Geography at Oregon
State University. And I run aprogram in water conflict
management, which means wheneither countries share rivers or
groundwater aquifers, or ordifferent groups of stakeholders
need to figure out how tocollectively manage a body of
water. That's something that ourcenter focuses on. How do you
(08:10):
how do you have these difficultconversations with water being
the vehicle that that bringspeople in into the room, and
then from there have also beeninvolved increasingly, in both
the interfaith and interfaithdialogues between faiths and
within states, and also betweengovernment agencies sometimes,
(08:32):
believe it or not even even ourgovernment agencies can have
disputes with each other?
Hanuman Goleman (08:37):
It's interesting work to be drawn to.
And I wonder what it is aboutthe work that initially got you
involved in it? What draws youto this work?
Aaron Wolf (08:47):
Oh, sure. Well, as you know, I'm I grew up I grew
up in San Francisco and spent alot of time in the Middle East.
And I think in both thoseplaces, water is both a source
of real tension between eitherstakeholders in the case of
California or countries in thecase of the Middle East, but
(09:07):
also it turns out again, as avehicle for dialogue, and I
think oftentimes, if we focus onpolitics, we focus on the things
that divide us, you can justbang your head against the wall,
there just is no way oftentimesto find any kind of approach to
to better solutions, if you onlyfocus on the political aspects.
(09:28):
And when I understood that thepolitics and and the resources
were intertwined, and that youcould use that connection as a
way to help focus a dialogue. Itwas very attractive to me So
first, I became very versed onthe technical side, I was
trained as a groundwaterhydrologist and worked for the
(09:49):
US Geological Survey for anumber of years. But then
increasingly understanding thatthe science is a great baseline
but only gets you so far. YouHave a roomful of angry people
and you come in and you say,Don't worry, you don't have to
be angry anymore, I figured outyour solution. All it does is
make them angrier. So that'ssent me back for training on the
(10:12):
policy side on the conflict,where we used to call conflict
resolution side. And to reallylearn more around how do you
help guide difficultconversations? How do you help
people find their shared values?
How do you work together towardswell, really towards a better
future?
Hanuman Goleman (10:31):
So you just articulated what the work is
really clearly it's helping twosides come to some terms that
they can agree on. I wonder whatit is for you about that process
that really resonates with youin the world? Well, sure,
Aaron Wolf (10:47):
as I've become older and kind of, you know, move from
working from my head to myheart, if you will, and thinking
less in terms of kind oftangible things that can be
negotiated to more energeticwork, how do you how do you
bring healing energy into aroom, that's hugely gratifying
(11:11):
work, when you're when you're apart of, even in a small wave
eat went for an instant, peoplewho had been on opposing sides
can come to some kind of a plantogether? Joint understanding, I
think, literally energeticallythere's, there's a positive
impact the one gets, I think thesame people who work in one on
(11:34):
one helping people work withtheir internal conflicts, people
in psychology or psychiatry, Ithink there are some in those
fields who get energy from it,for being in a classroom where
we're, you're helping somebodysee, profoundly new
understanding for the firsttime, these are just moments of
transformation, that, that it'sa privilege to be a part of, and
(11:58):
I think, I think that's the partand in the end of the day, with
so much pain and divisive pneus.
And in the world, I think it'sincumbent on all of us to heal
where we can to do whateverlittle bit of work of of
reaching out and helping buildbridges, it's incumbent on all
of us to do whatever we cantowards those ants. Do you
Hanuman Goleman (12:19):
think of yourself as a healer?
Aaron Wolf (12:21):
No, I, I think of myself as a vehicle or a conduit
if at all. I mean, you ask themotivation. And and and I know
these kinds of concepts arecomfortable for you personally
hunt him on, but also I imaginedlisteners to this podcast is,
this is the work, right? I mean,all of us are, are deeply
(12:44):
embedded in this in thisenergetic work trying to bring
about a better age. And so youknow, rooted individually in my
own my own faith, but also kindof more ecumenically around
using faith based tools or usingfaith based understandings of
energy and of shared values. Ithink it's well beyond any
(13:08):
individual. So I don't think ofmyself really as an individual
but but more as, as an organismwithin within a movement
Hanuman Goleman (13:15):
Spoken like a true healer. Would you give an
example of your work? And reallystart at the beginning? You
know, how did how did peoplecome together?
Aaron Wolf (13:25):
Sure. So as I said, I usually get called when either
either different countries arehaving disagreements around a
shared water body, a sharedriver that flows from one
country to another, or whendifferent groups within a
country are having problems,figuring out how to how to
(13:46):
manage their shared resources.
And so in this particular case,I was asked to help facilitate a
dialogue between four countries,the Four Lower Mekong countries,
so this is Laos, Cambodia,Vietnam and Thailand. And
they've been working togetherfairly well, for decades. They
have a commission and have aformal body, but from time to
(14:11):
time issues come up that arecontentious or or that that need
a bit of facilitation. And oneof the issues is when pollution
crosses a border, identifyingwhat the source is and how to
mitigate the negative impacts ofthe pollution. It's hard enough
to do within a country. So wehave those challenges within the
(14:32):
US. But it's it's that muchharder when the pollution
crosses an international border.
So that's how I was invited.
Again, the representatives fromthese four countries in the end,
they're dealing with this issueof cross border, environmental
impacts. And I should prefacethere are a couple of principles
that I've come to understandeither through through my own
(14:55):
faith path or through Have moreformal training and, and
conflict. And one of the one ofthe key principles is that when
you see anger, listen forvulnerability. And so
immediately as as the meetingstarted and you're looking for,
for the setting, generally thesemeetings are in in very
(15:19):
nondescript internationalchains. Although I have to say,
in Southeast Asia, even thesebig chains often have beautiful
gardens. And so fortunately, wehad a big wall of glass
overlooking a gorgeous garden.
And so, immediately, I mean, aswe started, it was clear that
(15:39):
there was real tension betweenthree countries and one of the
countries and really this cameup instantly as we made the most
basic of proposals is, shall wemonitor using this well known
process for monitoring threecountries said yes, one country
said no. Shall we use this longestablished list of pollutants
(16:03):
to help us identify the sourcesof pollution? Three countries
said yes, one country said no,and even innocuous thanks, shall
we go to lunch at noon, threecountries said yes. One country
said no. So as when you see thiskind of, of real intransigence.
You know, something's up. Imean, that doesn't take a lot of
training to figure out. And soyou go through in your mind,
(16:28):
what, what are the possiblestories here, and, and
oftentimes, when a party isdigging in their heels, either
they have the most power in theroom, in which case, they don't
want to move, or they have theleast power in the room, and
they're feeling vulnerable. Andknowing what little I knew about
the politics of the region, Iassumed it was it was the
(16:51):
ladder. And, and so there reallyis nowhere to go. I mean, if
there, we'd already establishedthat any decision making would
be consensus based. And so withthree to one, there was nothing
at all that that we can do so soI did what I do when I'm stuck,
which was I called the break.
And I asked the delegate, if ifshe would take a walk with me in
(17:13):
the in this beautiful garden.
And as she did, of course,again, what you learn about
anger is that it's oftenexpressed outward. But again,
the vulnerability is internal.
And the best way to understandit is to, is to listen. And I
mean, listen, really deeply, inways that we're not very good at
(17:36):
in the west, to listen not withyour ears, but listen from your
heart, and to give lots and lotsof space for the inevitable
venting, which then will giverise to, to the actual concern.
And so that's precisely whathappened, we're walking and sure
enough, a lot event in thoseother countries, they're trying
(17:58):
to take advantage of us thoseother countries, they're
bullying us every which waythose other countries, they
don't know who they're dealingwith, we're gonna stand our
ground. And you listen, and youlisten, you listen. And then
what happens in cases like this,at some point, she had vented to
the end.
(18:19):
And there's a sigh. To be honestwith you, Aaron, I'm not sure
that our technical people are upto the same standards of the
other three countries. Andthey're, you understand what the
vulnerability is, and andheighten, don't forget, this is
Southeast Asia, where honor andface are hugely important,
(18:40):
right. So to show that kind ofreluctance on the part of your
technical people would wouldhave cost her honor in the room.
And she's very reticent to showany kind of lack of capacity. So
we continue on and we go back inthe room. And that's where then
with that kind of understanding,you can help shape the process
(19:03):
to where instead of rushing totry and move forward, we now
take a step back and I said,Look, we've all we've been going
about this wrong, and it's myfault. We've been trying to, to
move forward on all theseregulations and so on, what we
probably ought to be doing isestablishing a joint a
collaborative, unified way to dothe technical work. Why don't we
(19:27):
start with basic capacitybuilding workshops, where we're
all getting on the same page fora process that we all agree on
for the Mekong way to do thiswork, at which point she jumped
in delightedly and said, That'sa good idea. We can have the
first workshop in our country.
So that's the kind of thingwhere the importance of
(19:48):
listening comes up theimportance of the signal of
anger of somebody's amygdalabeing triggered, representing a
certain amount of violence.
ability and given the space forfor the actual stories to come
out so that what's trulyhappening can be addressed
(20:08):
rather than the initialpositions. And the things that
divide us all of that I think,come out in this setting.
Hanuman Goleman (20:16):
When you get all of those folks into the
room, and three, say yes. Andone says no. And three, say yes.
And one says no. What does thatfeel like for you? I have
assumptions. But I'd love tohear what that experience is
actually, like, because you'rein this position where you're
tasked with helping them getbeyond that. Yeah, I
Aaron Wolf (20:40):
think, you know, like, like teaching like
facilitation, I think you start,you know, maybe in your 20s and
30s, working in your head andthinking that you have some
obligation to the answer. Andthat people are looking to you
for an answer. And over time,I've kind of dropped down and
now I really lead with, with myheart, and my intentions are
(21:04):
there to be of service. And myexperience, increasingly, is
when you're transparent, andyou're open about what you can
and can't do. People are verygenerous. And, and all I'm there
to do is to is to guide theprocess. And sometimes the
process gets somewhere andsometimes it doesn't, it's not a
(21:24):
reflection on me either way,again, I I keep working to
remove my myself as a as anagent. And in any of this. I'm a
conduit and a facilitator. Andso as, as I do that, if I don't
know, I'll say I don't know, ifI feel stuck, we'll take a
break, if if things aren'tworking, we'll postpone and
(21:46):
figure out what we can do beforethe next meeting. And these are
totally comfortable,increasingly comfortable
outcomes for the processes thatI'm involved with.
Hanuman Goleman (21:55):
So you, you're just cool as a cucumber the
whole time that like as tensionsare building, hey, put
Aaron Wolf (22:02):
it this way I aspire to cucumber coolness, I don't
know,
Hanuman Goleman (22:07):
what does it actually like, then?
Aaron Wolf (22:09):
Well, it's like any kind of practice animal and I
know, I know, you you've doneyour share of understanding
what's happening, being able toobserve what's happening
inwardly and and just letting itbe, you know, one of the tactics
that when people in very hightense situations are kind of
(22:30):
being pushed towards realizethey're, they're about to come
to an agreement. One of thetactics is they all gang up on
the facilitator. And oftentimes,it's very, very personal ways.
And, and again, in my 20s, and30s, that was deeply concerning,
in my ethnic deluded, flashedall over the place, and I get
defensive and, and increasingly,I just am able, at least to be
(22:54):
self aware enough to recognizethat most of the time, it really
is not about me that this isthis is a tactic and not to take
it personally. Because again, Iaspire not to be there as as an
individual,
Hanuman Goleman (23:07):
it's a beautiful aspiration, I find it
hard to I mean, I haveaspirations as well. And I find
it hard to actually arrive atthe most of the time, I find
myself navigating the waters,towards my aspirations or
forgetting about themcompletely.
Aaron Wolf (23:27):
It's a practice, it's a practice like any other
and what I've learned and alsolearned in doing workshops with
your father is, I think, so whenwhen you feel the the amygdala
signaling, what I've learnedover time is really instead of
letting that then lead into anemotional response, that then
(23:49):
leads into a story that thenleads into another more and more
emotion and you end up in thishorrible death spiral. So
you're, you know, you're stuckin traffic on the on the
freeway, and you're late to avery important meeting and your
battery and their phone is dead,and you can't let them know. And
you start and your amygdala goesoff and and you know, there's
(24:10):
going to be all this shame, andthey're going to talk about you
and maybe you lose your job. Andthat then drives the emotional
angst, which in turn, leads tomore and more story about how
this is the worst thing thatcould possibly happen ever. So
learning to take the amygdalacapture rather as as a leader in
this process, and as a signalthat you need to pay attention.
(24:33):
So the other route is yourheart's thumping, your muscles
are tightening up, whoa, okay,that's a signal. I need to pay
attention. What's going on? Sowhat I tell myself explicitly in
these situations, is stop andbreathe and listen. So just the
stop noticing the amygdalacapture. Go to the breath, which
(24:57):
helps center and cut off thathorrible, you know, the emotion
and then the story, just focuson the breath for a second, and
then ask myself move intolistening mode, what am I being
called to do in this moment? Andso then you have a choice,
you're stuck in your car,there's nothing you can do you
really, you have two choices andonly two choices. Either you can
(25:20):
be late to this importantmeeting, and anguish, or you can
simply be late to the meeting.
Those are the only two choicesyou have. And if you're
conscious that those are it,what the heck, radio works to
roll down the windows, how oftendo you get a couple of minutes
to yourself just with noobligation and nothing to do and
nothing to think about? And justto be what a great gift. Right?
(25:42):
So that's where when somebody isscreaming at you about your
western stooge and, and you haveno business being here to begin
with, and your skills are theskills of a kindergartener,
whatever it is, me and myamygdala have a happy little
conversation. And we go intolistening mode. And I think
(26:02):
moving up from the physical tothe emotional, it's stop and
breathe and listen. But then,and I think this is true in any
difficult conversation aboutpolitics or about policies or
anything else. Once you've donethat, and you're in listening
mode, to move into the mentalspace, you can ask, What can I
(26:23):
learn in this setting? Right? Sosomebody disagrees with you
fervently around politics andyour impulses to start screaming
back? And then you're screamingat each other? And that doesn't
benefit? Anybody? Ask, okay,here's somebody, human being has
very different views, what can Ilearn in this situation, which
immediately helps ease some ofthe combative energy in the
(26:47):
room. And then if you feel verybrave, and you want to move up
to the to the spiritual place,you can ask what do I share with
this person? And that's a very,very powerful question,
especially when you disagreewith each other really, really
fervently to move into what canI learn here? And then finally,
what do I share with thisperson, and I mean, on a on a
(27:09):
profound, transcendental place,what do I share can be something
as as fundamental as the thelight of the Divine, right? At
some level, we're all connected.
And so if you can see that, Imean, literally visualize that
in somebody with whom you havevisceral disagreement. It's a
(27:32):
powerful thing to do. And I wantto say with extreme caveat, if
you're actually unsafe, eitherphysically or emotionally, don't
do any of this stuff, just getto safety, that should go
without saying, but it doesn'talways mean.
Hanuman Goleman (27:46):
So before you get into the room, this is a
particular mindset that you'retalking about. It's not
necessarily how we all gothrough the world. And is there
something that you do to preparefor meeting of this consequence,
Aaron Wolf (28:00):
it's nicer to ask on a mug, because it for my book, I
asked a lot of facilitators thisconversation. And it's really
interesting, so many folks arerooted in the kind of
scientific, rational, technicalworld. And when you ask this
question, it turns out, most ofthem have deep spiritual lives
that were just trained neverever to ask about. And and so a
(28:22):
guy I know who works for verytechnical agency that's actually
housed in the Department ofDefense, he talks about invoking
the spirit of the Virgin Mary inthe room when he does. And so
sure I have my own personalpractice, I have about an hour
of prayer and meditation in themorning, that helps route me and
(28:44):
then going in, I'll kind of setan intention for the process.
And then it from there on, itreally is just trying to be
present,
Hanuman Goleman (28:53):
I think when we're working with anybody that
that we can often overlook isthe cultural fluency and
understanding where somebody iscoming from in their own
background, and how what we sayto one person sits very
differently when we say it toanother person. And so
navigating that in itself, Iassume is a whole area of study.
(29:15):
So let's start with that. Ithink. Do you have any stories
about navigating culturaldifferences in these conflict
management contexts? Sure.
Aaron Wolf (29:29):
I run into cultural faux pas all the time. And
oftentimes, I find out aboutthem when I run into him. So I
know enough to know that that Idon't know. And so I think the
base and I know the best is isthe Jordan basin between
Israelis and Arabs. And they'reI mean, every every geographic
(29:49):
location has at least threenames and each one is tied to
lots of history and politicalnuance, and so calling the wrong
thing in the world. Long ways isone of those triggers. But it
can be something even in our ownbackyard, I went here to Provo,
Utah, I was working with the USBureau of Reclamation, on
(30:11):
Western water issues, and showedup for an eight o'clock meeting,
which meant that I had been upsince four o'clock my time and
showed up and like most, youknow, most Americans are just
ready to get to work, let's justget to work. Let's not get to
know each other, or shareanything about each other, let's
(30:31):
just get to work. And I was abit taken aback and say, Can I
at least get a cup of coffee,and they all kind of looked at
me. And in the back of my mind,I'm going, Oh, Provo, Utah,
coffees a trigger. I mean, it's,it's the kind of thing you know,
had I been more awake at thatI've been more caffeinated, I
would recognize that I'm in theheart of Latter Day Saints
(30:54):
country and coffee was notsomething that most people ask
for when they show up. And Iwould have been more culturally
sensitive to my surroundings.
And that's the kind of thingthat happens all the time, all
the time, you know, being beingaware of now I'm more aware of
when when Ramadan is happening.
And so, you know, recognizingthat people will need breaks for
(31:15):
prayer to eat or break the fastor different traditions,
something as simple as as eyecontact, you know, we in the
West, where we're, if somebodydoesn't make eye contact, we're
suspicious of them, or firm,grasping handshake, if they
don't do that we're deeplysuspicious and recognized. And
there's cultures all over theworld, including indigenous
(31:36):
cultures within North America,where eye contact is seen as
threatening and offensive. Andyou certainly never make eye
contact across genders in someplaces, or between status and
hierarchy and other places. Andthis idea of this grasping
handshake, I've had worked abunch with, with tribes out here
(31:59):
in the West, and we were talkingabout with a lot of tribes, it's
much more of a kind of a gentlesaid, what is it? What is it
with white people, they gottagrab everything and, and try and
choke it. It's like, justconnect with me just go. That's
all I'm asking. Just connect.
And so these are the kinds ofthings that like I said, I my
experiences, if you go with goodintentions, and openness about
(32:23):
what you do, and don't know,people are often very, very
forgiving, but I certainly don'ttry and bluff my way through
stuff or, or, and that's why asI say, I always work with
somebody local, who will be ableto inform about all these
different issues. One of thethings I do is as an icebreaker
is I set people up for what theythink is an arm wrestling game,
(32:44):
but they directions. If youlisten to the directions, it's
clear that it's a collaborativegame, they should be working
together. But as soon as theyget into this arm wrestling
position, they stop listening,and they're in what's called
entrench thinking, and they justno matter what I say, when I say
go, they're all armwrestling,even though the the way to
(33:07):
actually win is to collaboratewith each other and get as many
points that way. Well, I do thisin Southeast Asia in the Mekong
in another meeting, just tobreak the ice and get people
thinking about theirpreconceptions and stuff. And so
they're in armwrestlingposition, and I say go and
nobody moves. Nobody moves nada.
(33:31):
Not that they're not struggling.
They're not nothing. And soagain, I'm working with my my
colleagues that kind of saddledup. So what's going on? I mean,
do they know how to how to play?
Sure they know how to armwrestle. So why aren't they
moving? said, Well, it's it's amatter of honor. It's a matter
of faith. I said, So wait, theydon't want to lose, they'll
(33:53):
they'll lose face if they lose.
He said, No, they don't want towin because they would cause the
other person to lose faith.
Hanuman Goleman (33:59):
That is a different orientation.
Aaron Wolf (34:01):
That's exactly the word for exactly right. So
recognizing what that means,then when you're thinking in
terms of of conflicts.
Westerners often talk aboutother cultures as being conflict
avoiders. And they're notsomebody described, it said
we're not avoiding conflict,we're just working really hard
towards harmony. It's a verydifferent approach.
Hanuman Goleman (34:25):
Is that approach? It sounds like what
you're saying is that one beingnon conflict, avoidant is
actually moving towards conflictand the other is orienting
towards the outcome of harmony.
Is it that one is thinking inorder to achieve some, some
resolution we have to go throughthe difficult conflict and the
(34:47):
other is, yeah, there
Aaron Wolf (34:51):
are a lot of places where conflict is seen as a
community is owned by acommunity. And so it's not about
the end of vigil, you know, wethink about the individual and
we want to punish them orisolate them, or when somebody
has perpetrated something, it'sabout the individual. And in a
lot of places, it's much moreabout the group. And so if there
(35:13):
is a dispute, in many places,there's a formal ceremony of
forgiveness, where theperpetrator will come to the
party that they've aggrieved andformally asked for forgiveness.
And so that's a way of, youknow, when they, when they
committed whatever act theycommitted, they took power away
from this other party. And nowthis is an act of of giving that
(35:36):
power back, asking forforgiveness, and to fix how it's
been described to me as is arant in the fabric of the
community. That's how conflictis seen. And then after it
happens, and and there's a mealand a formal ceremony. In some
places, they'll never talk aboutit again, they just it's as if
(35:59):
the conflict never ever tookplace. I think that's the kind
of thing that we in the Westcould learn a lot from, I mean,
think about what we could dowith the ceremonies of
reconciliation and forgiveness,where we celebrate together,
recognizing the torn fabric ofof our past, and trying to move
(36:19):
forward into a healthier future.
Hanuman Goleman (36:22):
What really stands out for me about what you
just said, is the humilitythat's integral in that
approach. I wonder how to bringhumility into a situation where
that isn't the orientation ofthe people involved? Yeah,
Aaron Wolf (36:38):
that's probably the question of the age. Right. I
mean, one of the things thatI've noticed even really painful
conversations here in the US, Imean, the the most contentious
issues that portion or guns arenow these horrible murders in in
schools and at supermarkets. Oneof the approaches that I think
(36:58):
is helpful is, is to perpetuallyremind us how much we have in
common, especially around ourshared values, I think so much
of how we have theconversations, whether it's,
it's social media, or actualmedia is so heavily emphasizing
the positions, the things thatdivide us and pro gun anti gun,
(37:20):
I'm red on blue, and that reallyis where we spent so much of the
conversation. But as I mentionedbefore, an exercise I do both
in, in facilitated processes andin the classroom, is I'll have
people roleplay on oppositesides of the most contentious
issues that there are, and I'llgive them three minutes to find
(37:42):
three things that they have incommon, and people do instantly.
And the fact that two thingshappen, one, in those
conversations in other parts oftraining and workshops will also
simulate triggering in theamygdala. And and there you can
really, when somebody is hearingsomething they disagree with for
the first time, it can reallytrigger you. What's interesting
(38:06):
in these in these exercises,when the intention is to find
commonality, the amygdala leavesyou alone. And so your intention
going into a conversation thathelps to inform how you're going
to react to it. And if yourintention going in, is to learn
is to is to find commonality,you can from the outset, have a
(38:28):
healthier conversation. So oftenwhen you set out to have these
conversations, it's to persuade,it's to overpower it's to win.
And simply starting with selfHumility is a way to have a much
healthier conversation. But theother thing that happens is
we're reminded over and over howmuch we do have in common. So I
(38:50):
mentioned that the deep sanctityof life that both sides of the
abortion debate, believe indeeply at their core, the
concern about about globalchange, I think is much more
universal than we give credit towhere we differ is on how much
is is human driven. And for somuch of what we need to do it
(39:12):
deeply doesn't matter. So let'sfocus on how we can react to the
part we agree about that thereis change happening, how do we
make our cities more resilient?
How do we make our coasts moreresilient? How do we deal with
with forest fires and floods anddroughts? These are
conversations we can and shouldbe having, rather than focusing
on the 10 or 15% that we differon.
Hanuman Goleman (39:36):
Have you ever been a part of a conversation or
negotiation that at thebeginning, there was just these
entrenched positions where theyclearly all the sides wanted to
win. And then there was amoment, this transformation that
you're describing these in thesedialogues, feels sort of
(39:57):
shamanic to me, these moments ofI have energy shift. And I
wonder how how somebody who's sodeeply dug into their position,
if there's a story you can tellabout humility, or their their
position fading like that.
Aaron Wolf (40:15):
That happens all the time. Because because people
start with their positions,right? They start with what it
is they want. And that's thewhole process is to move from,
from what they want maybe towhat they need to maybe what
everybody needs to maybefiguring out justice and equity.
So there's a truism and thefacilitation world that the
issue is never the issue. Sowhen when Israelis and
(40:38):
Palestinians are talking aboutwater, for the Israelis, they're
problem solving, you know, theyhave they have water for their
basic needs they have. And sothey're calculating what's the
what's the most efficient use ofwater? What's the, how much do
we invest in desalination, whenthe Palestinians are talking
about it, they're talking aboutwater is representing either
(41:00):
physical water that they don'thave literally in Gaza, not
enough for sustainability, oreven survival in some cases, or
emotional water, water is tiedto history and sovereignty and
power and, and all of thesethings. And so that's what comes
to the table when we'renominally talking about water.
(41:21):
And one of the one of the morepowerful things that we're
rooted to is our position in abase. And so some of the grand
debates or divisions that aregoing on right now is upstream
countries in the developingworld want to build dams, it's
one of the ways to help bringpeople out of poverty and
(41:43):
provide electricity and to dothe things that you know, we in
the in the West, spent most ofthe 40s and 50s doing, and now
there's so much pressure againstthem to follow the same path.
And the downstream countriesfeel very threatened by these
upstream dams. So Ethiopia isbuilding a huge dam that
(42:04):
concerns Egypt and and Laos isbuilding dams that concern
Vietnam and turkeys buildingdams that concern Iraq. So this
is this is happening all overthe world. And in these
workshops, this moment that youdescribed, is when I put a map
of their basin up withoutnational borders, two things
(42:26):
happen almost simultaneously.
One is their loss. Wait, wheream I I don't see any of my
boundaries that I'm used to anyof the walls that make me feel
safe, any of the any of mytouchstones that define my, my
existence, and then a dawningrecognition, and you can almost
see it on their face, oh, mygosh, we are all connected, oh,
(42:47):
my gosh, everything within thisspace and is connected to
everything else. We're all tiedto each other. And then you can
you can work with that if if youcan role play where the
downstream countries play theupstream country, or we play
with the basin without borderson the map. And we see what
kinds of decisions we would makeif we weren't rooted in our
(43:07):
national interest. These areexactly the kinds of moments
that happen enough so that weare able to move these dialogues
forward.
Hanuman Goleman (43:20):
What does that moment feel like to you to see
this change in people?
Aaron Wolf (43:25):
I don't know how to describe it, except its
antithesis. So if you picture aMonday, I know here's a little
kids I know, you know, what anad is. An ad goes off and you
feel like a concussion in yourstomach. Right? You feel a
little bit of percussion goingoff. Right? So that's that's the
negative aspect of this. I thinkthere's also the positive
(43:47):
equivalent when this happens isthat there's a little puff of
positive energy that moves likea wave through a room, and you
see it if somebody if somebodysays something nice about the
other side, and suddenlyeverybody is complimenting
everybody else, when if somebodylistens particularly well to
(44:07):
somebody else, or reflects onwhat it must be like to be in
somebody else's position. Theseare the kinds of things that are
contagious, and that initialpercussion resonates throughout
the room. So I think it reallyis contagious in a way that's
that
Hanuman Goleman (44:24):
addictive. So there's a physical shift that
you experience. I think so. Sothis this episode is where
we're, we're exploring conflictmanagement within systems. I
wonder if if there are systemsthat you've experienced, that
have baked into the process,conflict management and a little
(44:48):
bit more to that. There'ssomething that you said you're
looking for these moments ofyour being aware of the places
where people are Having tension,whether it be fear or anger, or,
or these emotions that areactually representing
(45:08):
vulnerability that they're,they're protecting and it's that
vulnerability, of course, itended
Aaron Wolf (45:13):
at a very small scale. I think some aspects of
this are embedded culturally andyou know, their local
communities all over the worldthat have this kind of idea that
the relations in the communityare a community value and that
when these get torn or or orrent, it's incumbent on the
(45:37):
community to to help heal. Andso there's processes in
Afghanistan, they call they callit a Loya Jirga where the group
brings the elders bring peopletogether to resolve issues there
are there's this wonderfulceremony and and I learned about
it in Palestine called a sofa. Ithink it's it's more Middle East
(46:00):
wide. Where it's it's thisceremony of forgiveness. And the
goal is a combination of justiceand honor. Which is something
that that, again, we don't haveis the balance of, and I've seen
it enacted I've seen it inBedouin land courts, for
example, where the judge willsay something to one party,
(46:24):
you're right. But can we come toan agreement where the other
side can also take care of hisfamily? Right? This is the kind
of thing that I think is is thisbalance between the needs of the
individual and theresponsibility to the group.
This happens. I don't know ifit's scaling up. But I like to
(46:45):
think that people who are doingthis work, either around
individuals or aroundcommunities, where they're
helping people, I think that thekey skills are one listening
better. I think when you trulylisten to people, you get well
past the stories and the masksand the I think people who have
(47:07):
deep mindfulness practices areused to doing this with
themselves is where they listendeeply to themselves, they can
get past their own kind of masksand boundaries and get at more
of a truthful observations. Ithink it's true of other people
too, if you listen very deeplyto somebody else, you can
understand and empathize muchmore with who they are, and what
(47:31):
their their needs are. And so Ithink that that's what this
would look like people wholisten better to each other, who
take more of a communityapproach to our aspirations. And
you feel that, that justice andmercy or self and other or
boundedness and openness arereally not opposites, but rather
(47:57):
two very complimentaryattributions, both of which need
to be respected, both inindividuals and in society at
large.
Hanuman Goleman (48:09):
What happened in this example, the Mekong
basin,
Aaron Wolf (48:13):
they now have a clause in their agreement on how
to manage transboundaryenvironmental impacts, and
they've been doing thesecollaborative workshops and, and
it's just such a such awonderful part of the world. And
they've done so much, really toteach the rest of the world
about these really, reallydifficult issues, even around
areas of tension. So we're nowworking in Central Asia, and
(48:37):
we're thinking will will takethis group to the Mekong because
they've done such a remarkablejob in their own base. And I
think they have a lot to teachpeople who are just crafting
their own agreements as well.
Hanuman Goleman (48:49):
Thank you so much. Thanks, gentlemen.
Elizabeth Solomon (49:00):
Thanks for listening to our interview with
Aaron Wolf. If you enjoyed thisepisode, please share it with
your friends. And tune in nexttime when we'll talk with Karen
Ziggler about how she navigatedconflicts as the senior pastor
of an LGBTQ church in GreenwichVillage of height of the AIDS
epidemic.
Hanuman Goleman (49:20):
Before we go, it's time for Ask Dan Have you
Elizabeth Solomon (49:25):
ever wanted to ask Dan Goleman anything
about emotional intelligence,mindfulness, meditation or
leadership? Maybe purpose orlife in general?
Hanuman Goleman (49:35):
If you've got questions, Dan has answers.
Submit your question viavoicemail at Keystep
media.com/ask. Dan, yourquestion could be selected and
featured on an upcoming episode.
Hi, Dan. How to love a no onesays better.
Daniel Goleman (49:55):
I actually hear two different questions there.
One has to do with selfcompassion. Loving yourself. And
the other one has to do withknowing oneself. And I think
that an answer to both of thosehas to do with acceptance with
both knowing who you are, howyou think how you react, what
(50:17):
your emotions are, and beingokay with that. Not trying to
feel you need to fix itnecessarily not feeling that
there's something wrong with it,not judging it. But just being
with it. Just finding a way tolet it be accepted and to love
(50:39):
yourself for how you are rightnow. Not love yourself for
achieving some goal or changingbut you just as you are right
now
Kerry Seed (50:55):
that's our show.
Special thanks to Cora and Dan,whose voices you heard at the
top of our show, and to ourguests, the good Dr. Aaron Wolf.
You can find more about his workat trans Boundary Waters dot O R
s t.edu. And if that link is toohard to remember, just check our
episode notes on our website,first person plural.com. While
you're there, you can check outour guest BIOS transcripts and
(51:17):
resources mentioned in today'sepisode. You can also follow us
on Instagram at Keystep media.
If you enjoyed our discussionwith Aaron Wolf, check out some
of our past interviews. I'drecommend the episodes with
Britton and Bennett and AkelaColas are none of this would be
possible without our incredibleteam. Our hosts are Daniel
(51:39):
Goleman, Hanuman Goleman andElizabeth Solomon. Bryant
Johnson creates the beautifulart you see with each episode.
Our audio editor is MichelleZipkin. Serena Kardon does
marketing. Our music is by Ambrohaga and ghost beats. I am
Carrie seed. This podcast issponsored by Keystep media, your
source for personal andprofessional development
(52:00):
materials focused onmindfulness, leadership and
emotional intelligence. Nexttime, we'll dive deeper into
conflict management with ourguest, Karen Ziegler. Until
then, take care of yourself andwe'll talk soon
Hi, everyone. This week on the show, we're starting
a series on conflict management.
And we're going to talk withAaron Wolf, who helps people
when they have problems with bigthings like water management
rights. And he said that onething he does when he brings
groups together who are having adispute,
has asked them three things theyhave in common. So today, I have
(00:39):
two volunteers here. What's yourname? Dan. And yours, Cora.
Okay. And Dan, your core isMother. Yes. Have the two of you
ever had a conflict with eachother? Definitely. All right.
And what are three things youhave in common, you can both
talk.
Cora (00:59):
We both are able to speak Chinese and write it.
Dan (01:04):
We're both female.
We're awesome.
Kerry Seed (01:12):
Thank you that didn't take long. And now let's
turn it over to the hosts whoare going to talk about conflict
management. Thanks for tuningin.
Daniel Goleman (01:29):
Welcome to first person plural, emotional
intelligence and beyond. I'mDaniel Goleman.
Hanuman Goleman (01:35):
I'm hanuman Goleman.
Elizabeth Solomon (01:37):
And I'm Elizabeth Solomon.
Hanuman Goleman (01:38):
Today we're beginning a series of interviews
about conflict management. Ourguest is Erin Wolf. Just so
everyone knows Aaron is my coololder cousin, and Dan's nephew.
Daniel Goleman (01:50):
And in fact, Aaron and my wife, Tara Bennett,
Coleman and I have been doingworkshops together on chemistry
of connection and some of thecore ideas in chemistry of
connection, Aaron has workedinto his own take on conflict
management.
Elizabeth Solomon (02:09):
Aaron, certainly a friend of the show,
I'm curious, are we gonna getinto a family reunion gone bad
today,
Hanuman Goleman (02:15):
actually, he's a guy that I always looked up to
on on visits to my grandmother'shouse, and now he's doing
fascinating work. He's a waterresources geographer at Oregon
State University and a trainedmediator that sounds a little
bit dry. But water resourcesbrings him into right into the
heart of some really fascinatinghuman experience. It gets. It
(02:39):
involves faith and water rights,which is about the very survival
of the people that he's workingwith.
Elizabeth Solomon (02:46):
And you've researched and written
extensively about conflictmanagement. And I'm curious from
your perspective, how Aaron'sfocus on shared values in this
interview aligns with whatyou've learned.
Daniel Goleman (02:58):
Well, one of the facets that Aaron uses in his
work is finding a way people canconnect. And this, of course, is
come straight out of chemistryof connection, that workshop
with Tara Bennett, Goleman. AndI, and actually, from her book,
mind whispering, but from mypoint of view, I think that
(03:22):
conflict management reallyhinges on the ability to find a
way to keep people linked, evenas they're disagreeing.
Elizabeth Solomon (03:31):
You know, Dan, one of the things that
comes to mind to me justthinking about, you know, your
early studies at Harvard, andyou choosing to pursue and
embark upon the study ofmeditation, for example, at a
time when that was kind of notpart of the Zeitgeist or the
conversation, particularly inacademia. And I'm curious to
hear, you know, sort of thinkingabout that as something that's
potentially conflictual. How didyou kind of use values or some
(03:55):
sort of shared vision in orderto, you know, quote, unquote,
kind of influence Harvard intosupporting you?
Daniel Goleman (04:03):
A while ago, long time ago, actually, when I
was at Harvard, I had decidedthat I would do my doctoral
dissertation on meditation.
However, my professors were verypsychoanalytic. And they thought
this was a really stupid idea.
And so I had to navigate a real,I had to manage conflict there
(04:24):
because they were against it.
And yet, I really felt stronglythat this is what I wanted to
do. So it seemed to me what Ineeded to do. What I needed to
do was to manage the conflict,you know, to it was a tense
situation, and that's a hallmarkof conflict management. But I
had to tactfully bring thedisagreement in the open and
(04:46):
come up with a solution thateveryone could endorse. And this
is of course, something leaderswho take the time to understand
different perspectives worktoward finding a common round in
which everyone could agree, butI didn't know that at the time,
I was just going blind, itseemed to me, I wanted to do
this, I had to get everyone toagree, I had to acknowledge that
(05:09):
they had, you know, a point ofview that I could see, but that
I didn't agree with it. And thatthere was a higher value that we
all could agree on, which was,hey, let's find some science to
apply here.
Hanuman Goleman (05:27):
You were in a school of psychology. So were
you also looking towards thefuture of, of this study and
thinking about how you'reexpanding the field? Well, one
Daniel Goleman (05:37):
of the things that kept me going, was that I
actually felt, you know, deep inmy heart, that meditation could
have value for many, manypeople. And that if there was a
study from Harvard, which iswhat it was, that showed that it
had some value, people might tryit out. I think that, at some
level, I felt that what weneeded was a culture shift in
(06:00):
values, that this could helpthat along. I had no idea that,
you know, decades later, thiswould be very commonplace. At
the time, it was very radical, Iwas a real outlier, taking a
risk. But I felt strongly thatthere could be benefit here for
lots of people.
Hanuman Goleman (06:21):
In our interview, Erin talks about some
cultures and faiths that havecreated systems and rituals for
helping a community heal fromconflict. Can you think of any
examples from your own researchof systems designed to manage
conflict? Especially? Well,
Daniel Goleman (06:40):
you know, this is something that I think modern
civilization has reached somelimits on. I think the European
Union is a beautiful example ofan ideal type of how we might
have an institution thattranscends local needs, local
boundaries, and local vision, weneed a lot more of that I can
(07:03):
think of traditional culturesthat have rituals for managing
conflict. And it's part of thesystem of that culture. For
example, the cooking Bushmanwhen someone has a disagreement
with someone else, they don'tspeak to that disagreement
specifically, but they spend allnight dancing and singing
(07:26):
together as a very healingeffect.
Elizabeth Solomon (07:29):
Beautiful.
Let's listen to the interviewwith Aaron Wolf.
Hanuman Goleman (07:34):
So it's really fun to be doing this with you.
Thank you for being here. Ofcourse, it's a pleasure kind of
mine. And as an introduction,actually don't know your title
and your professorship.
Aaron Wolf (07:45):
Yep. So I'm a Professor of Geography at Oregon
State University. And I run aprogram in water conflict
management, which means wheneither countries share rivers or
groundwater aquifers, or ordifferent groups of stakeholders
need to figure out how tocollectively manage a body of
water. That's something that ourcenter focuses on. How do you
(08:10):
how do you have these difficultconversations with water being
the vehicle that that bringspeople in into the room, and
then from there have also beeninvolved increasingly, in both
the interfaith and interfaithdialogues between faiths and
within states, and also betweengovernment agencies sometimes,
(08:32):
believe it or not even even ourgovernment agencies can have
disputes with each other?
Hanuman Goleman (08:37):
It's interesting work to be drawn to.
And I wonder what it is aboutthe work that initially got you
involved in it? What draws youto this work?
Aaron Wolf (08:47):
Oh, sure. Well, as you know, I'm I grew up I grew
up in San Francisco and spent alot of time in the Middle East.
And I think in both thoseplaces, water is both a source
of real tension between eitherstakeholders in the case of
California or countries in thecase of the Middle East, but
(09:07):
also it turns out again, as avehicle for dialogue, and I
think oftentimes, if we focus onpolitics, we focus on the things
that divide us, you can justbang your head against the wall,
there just is no way oftentimesto find any kind of approach to
to better solutions, if you onlyfocus on the political aspects.
(09:28):
And when I understood that thepolitics and and the resources
were intertwined, and that youcould use that connection as a
way to help focus a dialogue. Itwas very attractive to me So
first, I became very versed onthe technical side, I was
trained as a groundwaterhydrologist and worked for the
(09:49):
US Geological Survey for anumber of years. But then
increasingly understanding thatthe science is a great baseline
but only gets you so far. YouHave a roomful of angry people
and you come in and you say,Don't worry, you don't have to
be angry anymore, I figured outyour solution. All it does is
make them angrier. So that'ssent me back for training on the
(10:12):
policy side on the conflict,where we used to call conflict
resolution side. And to reallylearn more around how do you
help guide difficultconversations? How do you help
people find their shared values?
How do you work together towardswell, really towards a better
future?
Hanuman Goleman (10:31):
So you just articulated what the work is
really clearly it's helping twosides come to some terms that
they can agree on. I wonder whatit is for you about that process
that really resonates with youin the world? Well, sure,
Aaron Wolf (10:47):
as I've become older and kind of, you know, move from
working from my head to myheart, if you will, and thinking
less in terms of kind oftangible things that can be
negotiated to more energeticwork, how do you how do you
bring healing energy into aroom, that's hugely gratifying
(11:11):
work, when you're when you're apart of, even in a small wave
eat went for an instant, peoplewho had been on opposing sides
can come to some kind of a plantogether? Joint understanding, I
think, literally energeticallythere's, there's a positive
impact the one gets, I think thesame people who work in one on
(11:34):
one helping people work withtheir internal conflicts, people
in psychology or psychiatry, Ithink there are some in those
fields who get energy from it,for being in a classroom where
we're, you're helping somebodysee, profoundly new
understanding for the firsttime, these are just moments of
transformation, that, that it'sa privilege to be a part of, and
(11:58):
I think, I think that's the partand in the end of the day, with
so much pain and divisive pneus.
And in the world, I think it'sincumbent on all of us to heal
where we can to do whateverlittle bit of work of of
reaching out and helping buildbridges, it's incumbent on all
of us to do whatever we cantowards those ants. Do you
Hanuman Goleman (12:19):
think of yourself as a healer?
Aaron Wolf (12:21):
No, I, I think of myself as a vehicle or a conduit
if at all. I mean, you ask themotivation. And and and I know
these kinds of concepts arecomfortable for you personally
hunt him on, but also I imaginedlisteners to this podcast is,
this is the work, right? I mean,all of us are, are deeply
(12:44):
embedded in this in thisenergetic work trying to bring
about a better age. And so youknow, rooted individually in my
own my own faith, but also kindof more ecumenically around
using faith based tools or usingfaith based understandings of
energy and of shared values. Ithink it's well beyond any
(13:08):
individual. So I don't think ofmyself really as an individual
but but more as, as an organismwithin within a movement
Hanuman Goleman (13:15):
Spoken like a true healer. Would you give an
example of your work? And reallystart at the beginning? You
know, how did how did peoplecome together?
Aaron Wolf (13:25):
Sure. So as I said, I usually get called when either
either different countries arehaving disagreements around a
shared water body, a sharedriver that flows from one
country to another, or whendifferent groups within a
country are having problems,figuring out how to how to
(13:46):
manage their shared resources.
And so in this particular case,I was asked to help facilitate a
dialogue between four countries,the Four Lower Mekong countries,
so this is Laos, Cambodia,Vietnam and Thailand. And
they've been working togetherfairly well, for decades. They
have a commission and have aformal body, but from time to
(14:11):
time issues come up that arecontentious or or that that need
a bit of facilitation. And oneof the issues is when pollution
crosses a border, identifyingwhat the source is and how to
mitigate the negative impacts ofthe pollution. It's hard enough
to do within a country. So wehave those challenges within the
(14:32):
US. But it's it's that muchharder when the pollution
crosses an international border.
So that's how I was invited.
Again, the representatives fromthese four countries in the end,
they're dealing with this issueof cross border, environmental
impacts. And I should prefacethere are a couple of principles
that I've come to understandeither through through my own
(14:55):
faith path or through Have moreformal training and, and
conflict. And one of the one ofthe key principles is that when
you see anger, listen forvulnerability. And so
immediately as as the meetingstarted and you're looking for,
for the setting, generally thesemeetings are in in very
(15:19):
nondescript internationalchains. Although I have to say,
in Southeast Asia, even thesebig chains often have beautiful
gardens. And so fortunately, wehad a big wall of glass
overlooking a gorgeous garden.
And so, immediately, I mean, aswe started, it was clear that
(15:39):
there was real tension betweenthree countries and one of the
countries and really this cameup instantly as we made the most
basic of proposals is, shall wemonitor using this well known
process for monitoring threecountries said yes, one country
said no. Shall we use this longestablished list of pollutants
(16:03):
to help us identify the sourcesof pollution? Three countries
said yes, one country said no,and even innocuous thanks, shall
we go to lunch at noon, threecountries said yes. One country
said no. So as when you see thiskind of, of real intransigence.
You know, something's up. Imean, that doesn't take a lot of
training to figure out. And soyou go through in your mind,
(16:28):
what, what are the possiblestories here, and, and
oftentimes, when a party isdigging in their heels, either
they have the most power in theroom, in which case, they don't
want to move, or they have theleast power in the room, and
they're feeling vulnerable. Andknowing what little I knew about
the politics of the region, Iassumed it was it was the
(16:51):
ladder. And, and so there reallyis nowhere to go. I mean, if
there, we'd already establishedthat any decision making would
be consensus based. And so withthree to one, there was nothing
at all that that we can do so soI did what I do when I'm stuck,
which was I called the break.
And I asked the delegate, if ifshe would take a walk with me in
(17:13):
the in this beautiful garden.
And as she did, of course,again, what you learn about
anger is that it's oftenexpressed outward. But again,
the vulnerability is internal.
And the best way to understandit is to, is to listen. And I
mean, listen, really deeply, inways that we're not very good at
(17:36):
in the west, to listen not withyour ears, but listen from your
heart, and to give lots and lotsof space for the inevitable
venting, which then will giverise to, to the actual concern.
And so that's precisely whathappened, we're walking and sure
enough, a lot event in thoseother countries, they're trying
(17:58):
to take advantage of us thoseother countries, they're
bullying us every which waythose other countries, they
don't know who they're dealingwith, we're gonna stand our
ground. And you listen, and youlisten, you listen. And then
what happens in cases like this,at some point, she had vented to
the end.
(18:19):
And there's a sigh. To be honestwith you, Aaron, I'm not sure
that our technical people are upto the same standards of the
other three countries. Andthey're, you understand what the
vulnerability is, and andheighten, don't forget, this is
Southeast Asia, where honor andface are hugely important,
(18:40):
right. So to show that kind ofreluctance on the part of your
technical people would wouldhave cost her honor in the room.
And she's very reticent to showany kind of lack of capacity. So
we continue on and we go back inthe room. And that's where then
with that kind of understanding,you can help shape the process
(19:03):
to where instead of rushing totry and move forward, we now
take a step back and I said,Look, we've all we've been going
about this wrong, and it's myfault. We've been trying to, to
move forward on all theseregulations and so on, what we
probably ought to be doing isestablishing a joint a
collaborative, unified way to dothe technical work. Why don't we
(19:27):
start with basic capacitybuilding workshops, where we're
all getting on the same page fora process that we all agree on
for the Mekong way to do thiswork, at which point she jumped
in delightedly and said, That'sa good idea. We can have the
first workshop in our country.
So that's the kind of thingwhere the importance of
(19:48):
listening comes up theimportance of the signal of
anger of somebody's amygdalabeing triggered, representing a
certain amount of violence.
ability and given the space forfor the actual stories to come
out so that what's trulyhappening can be addressed
(20:08):
rather than the initialpositions. And the things that
divide us all of that I think,come out in this setting.
Hanuman Goleman (20:16):
When you get all of those folks into the
room, and three, say yes. Andone says no. And three, say yes.
And one says no. What does thatfeel like for you? I have
assumptions. But I'd love tohear what that experience is
actually, like, because you'rein this position where you're
tasked with helping them getbeyond that. Yeah, I
Aaron Wolf (20:40):
think, you know, like, like teaching like
facilitation, I think you start,you know, maybe in your 20s and
30s, working in your head andthinking that you have some
obligation to the answer. Andthat people are looking to you
for an answer. And over time,I've kind of dropped down and
now I really lead with, with myheart, and my intentions are
(21:04):
there to be of service. And myexperience, increasingly, is
when you're transparent, andyou're open about what you can
and can't do. People are verygenerous. And, and all I'm there
to do is to is to guide theprocess. And sometimes the
process gets somewhere andsometimes it doesn't, it's not a
(21:24):
reflection on me either way,again, I I keep working to
remove my myself as a as anagent. And in any of this. I'm a
conduit and a facilitator. Andso as, as I do that, if I don't
know, I'll say I don't know, ifI feel stuck, we'll take a
break, if if things aren'tworking, we'll postpone and
(21:46):
figure out what we can do beforethe next meeting. And these are
totally comfortable,increasingly comfortable
outcomes for the processes thatI'm involved with.
Hanuman Goleman (21:55):
So you, you're just cool as a cucumber the
whole time that like as tensionsare building, hey, put
Aaron Wolf (22:02):
it this way I aspire to cucumber coolness, I don't
know,
Hanuman Goleman (22:07):
what does it actually like, then?
Aaron Wolf (22:09):
Well, it's like any kind of practice animal and I
know, I know, you you've doneyour share of understanding
what's happening, being able toobserve what's happening
inwardly and and just letting itbe, you know, one of the tactics
that when people in very hightense situations are kind of
(22:30):
being pushed towards realizethey're, they're about to come
to an agreement. One of thetactics is they all gang up on
the facilitator. And oftentimes,it's very, very personal ways.
And, and again, in my 20s, and30s, that was deeply concerning,
in my ethnic deluded, flashedall over the place, and I get
defensive and, and increasingly,I just am able, at least to be
(22:54):
self aware enough to recognizethat most of the time, it really
is not about me that this isthis is a tactic and not to take
it personally. Because again, Iaspire not to be there as as an
individual,
Hanuman Goleman (23:07):
it's a beautiful aspiration, I find it
hard to I mean, I haveaspirations as well. And I find
it hard to actually arrive atthe most of the time, I find
myself navigating the waters,towards my aspirations or
forgetting about themcompletely.
Aaron Wolf (23:27):
It's a practice, it's a practice like any other
and what I've learned and alsolearned in doing workshops with
your father is, I think, so whenwhen you feel the the amygdala
signaling, what I've learnedover time is really instead of
letting that then lead into anemotional response, that then
(23:49):
leads into a story that thenleads into another more and more
emotion and you end up in thishorrible death spiral. So
you're, you know, you're stuckin traffic on the on the
freeway, and you're late to avery important meeting and your
battery and their phone is dead,and you can't let them know. And
you start and your amygdala goesoff and and you know, there's
(24:10):
going to be all this shame, andthey're going to talk about you
and maybe you lose your job. Andthat then drives the emotional
angst, which in turn, leads tomore and more story about how
this is the worst thing thatcould possibly happen ever. So
learning to take the amygdalacapture rather as as a leader in
this process, and as a signalthat you need to pay attention.
(24:33):
So the other route is yourheart's thumping, your muscles
are tightening up, whoa, okay,that's a signal. I need to pay
attention. What's going on? Sowhat I tell myself explicitly in
these situations, is stop andbreathe and listen. So just the
stop noticing the amygdalacapture. Go to the breath, which
(24:57):
helps center and cut off thathorrible, you know, the emotion
and then the story, just focuson the breath for a second, and
then ask myself move intolistening mode, what am I being
called to do in this moment? Andso then you have a choice,
you're stuck in your car,there's nothing you can do you
really, you have two choices andonly two choices. Either you can
(25:20):
be late to this importantmeeting, and anguish, or you can
simply be late to the meeting.
Those are the only two choicesyou have. And if you're
conscious that those are it,what the heck, radio works to
roll down the windows, how oftendo you get a couple of minutes
to yourself just with noobligation and nothing to do and
nothing to think about? And justto be what a great gift. Right?
(25:42):
So that's where when somebody isscreaming at you about your
western stooge and, and you haveno business being here to begin
with, and your skills are theskills of a kindergartener,
whatever it is, me and myamygdala have a happy little
conversation. And we go intolistening mode. And I think
(26:02):
moving up from the physical tothe emotional, it's stop and
breathe and listen. But then,and I think this is true in any
difficult conversation aboutpolitics or about policies or
anything else. Once you've donethat, and you're in listening
mode, to move into the mentalspace, you can ask, What can I
(26:23):
learn in this setting? Right? Sosomebody disagrees with you
fervently around politics andyour impulses to start screaming
back? And then you're screamingat each other? And that doesn't
benefit? Anybody? Ask, okay,here's somebody, human being has
very different views, what can Ilearn in this situation, which
immediately helps ease some ofthe combative energy in the
(26:47):
room. And then if you feel verybrave, and you want to move up
to the to the spiritual place,you can ask what do I share with
this person? And that's a very,very powerful question,
especially when you disagreewith each other really, really
fervently to move into what canI learn here? And then finally,
what do I share with thisperson, and I mean, on a on a
(27:09):
profound, transcendental place,what do I share can be something
as as fundamental as the thelight of the Divine, right? At
some level, we're all connected.
And so if you can see that, Imean, literally visualize that
in somebody with whom you havevisceral disagreement. It's a
(27:32):
powerful thing to do. And I wantto say with extreme caveat, if
you're actually unsafe, eitherphysically or emotionally, don't
do any of this stuff, just getto safety, that should go
without saying, but it doesn'talways mean.
Hanuman Goleman (27:46):
So before you get into the room, this is a
particular mindset that you'retalking about. It's not
necessarily how we all gothrough the world. And is there
something that you do to preparefor meeting of this consequence,
Aaron Wolf (28:00):
it's nicer to ask on a mug, because it for my book, I
asked a lot of facilitators thisconversation. And it's really
interesting, so many folks arerooted in the kind of
scientific, rational, technicalworld. And when you ask this
question, it turns out, most ofthem have deep spiritual lives
that were just trained neverever to ask about. And and so a
(28:22):
guy I know who works for verytechnical agency that's actually
housed in the Department ofDefense, he talks about invoking
the spirit of the Virgin Mary inthe room when he does. And so
sure I have my own personalpractice, I have about an hour
of prayer and meditation in themorning, that helps route me and
(28:44):
then going in, I'll kind of setan intention for the process.
And then it from there on, itreally is just trying to be
present,
Hanuman Goleman (28:53):
I think when we're working with anybody that
that we can often overlook isthe cultural fluency and
understanding where somebody iscoming from in their own
background, and how what we sayto one person sits very
differently when we say it toanother person. And so
navigating that in itself, Iassume is a whole area of study.
(29:15):
So let's start with that. Ithink. Do you have any stories
about navigating culturaldifferences in these conflict
management contexts? Sure.
Aaron Wolf (29:29):
I run into cultural faux pas all the time. And
oftentimes, I find out aboutthem when I run into him. So I
know enough to know that that Idon't know. And so I think the
base and I know the best is isthe Jordan basin between
Israelis and Arabs. And they'reI mean, every every geographic
(29:49):
location has at least threenames and each one is tied to
lots of history and politicalnuance, and so calling the wrong
thing in the world. Long ways isone of those triggers. But it
can be something even in our ownbackyard, I went here to Provo,
Utah, I was working with the USBureau of Reclamation, on
(30:11):
Western water issues, and showedup for an eight o'clock meeting,
which meant that I had been upsince four o'clock my time and
showed up and like most, youknow, most Americans are just
ready to get to work, let's justget to work. Let's not get to
know each other, or shareanything about each other, let's
(30:31):
just get to work. And I was abit taken aback and say, Can I
at least get a cup of coffee,and they all kind of looked at
me. And in the back of my mind,I'm going, Oh, Provo, Utah,
coffees a trigger. I mean, it's,it's the kind of thing you know,
had I been more awake at thatI've been more caffeinated, I
would recognize that I'm in theheart of Latter Day Saints
(30:54):
country and coffee was notsomething that most people ask
for when they show up. And Iwould have been more culturally
sensitive to my surroundings.
And that's the kind of thingthat happens all the time, all
the time, you know, being beingaware of now I'm more aware of
when when Ramadan is happening.
And so, you know, recognizingthat people will need breaks for
(31:15):
prayer to eat or break the fastor different traditions,
something as simple as as eyecontact, you know, we in the
West, where we're, if somebodydoesn't make eye contact, we're
suspicious of them, or firm,grasping handshake, if they
don't do that we're deeplysuspicious and recognized. And
there's cultures all over theworld, including indigenous
(31:36):
cultures within North America,where eye contact is seen as
threatening and offensive. Andyou certainly never make eye
contact across genders in someplaces, or between status and
hierarchy and other places. Andthis idea of this grasping
handshake, I've had worked abunch with, with tribes out here
(31:59):
in the West, and we were talkingabout with a lot of tribes, it's
much more of a kind of a gentlesaid, what is it? What is it
with white people, they gottagrab everything and, and try and
choke it. It's like, justconnect with me just go. That's
all I'm asking. Just connect.
And so these are the kinds ofthings that like I said, I my
experiences, if you go with goodintentions, and openness about
(32:23):
what you do, and don't know,people are often very, very
forgiving, but I certainly don'ttry and bluff my way through
stuff or, or, and that's why asI say, I always work with
somebody local, who will be ableto inform about all these
different issues. One of thethings I do is as an icebreaker
is I set people up for what theythink is an arm wrestling game,
(32:44):
but they directions. If youlisten to the directions, it's
clear that it's a collaborativegame, they should be working
together. But as soon as theyget into this arm wrestling
position, they stop listening,and they're in what's called
entrench thinking, and they justno matter what I say, when I say
go, they're all armwrestling,even though the the way to
(33:07):
actually win is to collaboratewith each other and get as many
points that way. Well, I do thisin Southeast Asia in the Mekong
in another meeting, just tobreak the ice and get people
thinking about theirpreconceptions and stuff. And so
they're in armwrestlingposition, and I say go and
nobody moves. Nobody moves nada.
(33:31):
Not that they're not struggling.
They're not nothing. And soagain, I'm working with my my
colleagues that kind of saddledup. So what's going on? I mean,
do they know how to how to play?
Sure they know how to armwrestle. So why aren't they
moving? said, Well, it's it's amatter of honor. It's a matter
of faith. I said, So wait, theydon't want to lose, they'll
(33:53):
they'll lose face if they lose.
He said, No, they don't want towin because they would cause the
other person to lose faith.
Hanuman Goleman (33:59):
That is a different orientation.
Aaron Wolf (34:01):
That's exactly the word for exactly right. So
recognizing what that means,then when you're thinking in
terms of of conflicts.
Westerners often talk aboutother cultures as being conflict
avoiders. And they're notsomebody described, it said
we're not avoiding conflict,we're just working really hard
towards harmony. It's a verydifferent approach.
Hanuman Goleman (34:25):
Is that approach? It sounds like what
you're saying is that one beingnon conflict, avoidant is
actually moving towards conflictand the other is orienting
towards the outcome of harmony.
Is it that one is thinking inorder to achieve some, some
resolution we have to go throughthe difficult conflict and the
(34:47):
other is, yeah, there
Aaron Wolf (34:51):
are a lot of places where conflict is seen as a
community is owned by acommunity. And so it's not about
the end of vigil, you know, wethink about the individual and
we want to punish them orisolate them, or when somebody
has perpetrated something, it'sabout the individual. And in a
lot of places, it's much moreabout the group. And so if there
(35:13):
is a dispute, in many places,there's a formal ceremony of
forgiveness, where theperpetrator will come to the
party that they've aggrieved andformally asked for forgiveness.
And so that's a way of, youknow, when they, when they
committed whatever act theycommitted, they took power away
from this other party. And nowthis is an act of of giving that
(35:36):
power back, asking forforgiveness, and to fix how it's
been described to me as is arant in the fabric of the
community. That's how conflictis seen. And then after it
happens, and and there's a mealand a formal ceremony. In some
places, they'll never talk aboutit again, they just it's as if
(35:59):
the conflict never ever tookplace. I think that's the kind
of thing that we in the Westcould learn a lot from, I mean,
think about what we could dowith the ceremonies of
reconciliation and forgiveness,where we celebrate together,
recognizing the torn fabric ofof our past, and trying to move
(36:19):
forward into a healthier future.
Hanuman Goleman (36:22):
What really stands out for me about what you
just said, is the humilitythat's integral in that
approach. I wonder how to bringhumility into a situation where
that isn't the orientation ofthe people involved? Yeah,
Aaron Wolf (36:38):
that's probably the question of the age. Right. I
mean, one of the things thatI've noticed even really painful
conversations here in the US, Imean, the the most contentious
issues that portion or guns arenow these horrible murders in in
schools and at supermarkets. Oneof the approaches that I think
(36:58):
is helpful is, is to perpetuallyremind us how much we have in
common, especially around ourshared values, I think so much
of how we have theconversations, whether it's,
it's social media, or actualmedia is so heavily emphasizing
the positions, the things thatdivide us and pro gun anti gun,
(37:20):
I'm red on blue, and that reallyis where we spent so much of the
conversation. But as I mentionedbefore, an exercise I do both
in, in facilitated processes andin the classroom, is I'll have
people roleplay on oppositesides of the most contentious
issues that there are, and I'llgive them three minutes to find
(37:42):
three things that they have incommon, and people do instantly.
And the fact that two thingshappen, one, in those
conversations in other parts oftraining and workshops will also
simulate triggering in theamygdala. And and there you can
really, when somebody is hearingsomething they disagree with for
the first time, it can reallytrigger you. What's interesting
(38:06):
in these in these exercises,when the intention is to find
commonality, the amygdala leavesyou alone. And so your intention
going into a conversation thathelps to inform how you're going
to react to it. And if yourintention going in, is to learn
is to is to find commonality,you can from the outset, have a
(38:28):
healthier conversation. So oftenwhen you set out to have these
conversations, it's to persuade,it's to overpower it's to win.
And simply starting with selfHumility is a way to have a much
healthier conversation. But theother thing that happens is
we're reminded over and over howmuch we do have in common. So I
(38:50):
mentioned that the deep sanctityof life that both sides of the
abortion debate, believe indeeply at their core, the
concern about about globalchange, I think is much more
universal than we give credit towhere we differ is on how much
is is human driven. And for somuch of what we need to do it
(39:12):
deeply doesn't matter. So let'sfocus on how we can react to the
part we agree about that thereis change happening, how do we
make our cities more resilient?
How do we make our coasts moreresilient? How do we deal with
with forest fires and floods anddroughts? These are
conversations we can and shouldbe having, rather than focusing
on the 10 or 15% that we differon.
Hanuman Goleman (39:36):
Have you ever been a part of a conversation or
negotiation that at thebeginning, there was just these
entrenched positions where theyclearly all the sides wanted to
win. And then there was amoment, this transformation that
you're describing these in thesedialogues, feels sort of
(39:57):
shamanic to me, these moments ofI have energy shift. And I
wonder how how somebody who's sodeeply dug into their position,
if there's a story you can tellabout humility, or their their
position fading like that.
Aaron Wolf (40:15):
That happens all the time. Because because people
start with their positions,right? They start with what it
is they want. And that's thewhole process is to move from,
from what they want maybe towhat they need to maybe what
everybody needs to maybefiguring out justice and equity.
So there's a truism and thefacilitation world that the
issue is never the issue. Sowhen when Israelis and
(40:38):
Palestinians are talking aboutwater, for the Israelis, they're
problem solving, you know, theyhave they have water for their
basic needs they have. And sothey're calculating what's the
what's the most efficient use ofwater? What's the, how much do
we invest in desalination, whenthe Palestinians are talking
about it, they're talking aboutwater is representing either
(41:00):
physical water that they don'thave literally in Gaza, not
enough for sustainability, oreven survival in some cases, or
emotional water, water is tiedto history and sovereignty and
power and, and all of thesethings. And so that's what comes
to the table when we'renominally talking about water.
(41:21):
And one of the one of the morepowerful things that we're
rooted to is our position in abase. And so some of the grand
debates or divisions that aregoing on right now is upstream
countries in the developingworld want to build dams, it's
one of the ways to help bringpeople out of poverty and
(41:43):
provide electricity and to dothe things that you know, we in
the in the West, spent most ofthe 40s and 50s doing, and now
there's so much pressure againstthem to follow the same path.
And the downstream countriesfeel very threatened by these
upstream dams. So Ethiopia isbuilding a huge dam that
(42:04):
concerns Egypt and and Laos isbuilding dams that concern
Vietnam and turkeys buildingdams that concern Iraq. So this
is this is happening all overthe world. And in these
workshops, this moment that youdescribed, is when I put a map
of their basin up withoutnational borders, two things
(42:26):
happen almost simultaneously.
One is their loss. Wait, wheream I I don't see any of my
boundaries that I'm used to anyof the walls that make me feel
safe, any of the any of mytouchstones that define my, my
existence, and then a dawningrecognition, and you can almost
see it on their face, oh, mygosh, we are all connected, oh,
(42:47):
my gosh, everything within thisspace and is connected to
everything else. We're all tiedto each other. And then you can
you can work with that if if youcan role play where the
downstream countries play theupstream country, or we play
with the basin without borderson the map. And we see what
kinds of decisions we would makeif we weren't rooted in our
(43:07):
national interest. These areexactly the kinds of moments
that happen enough so that weare able to move these dialogues
forward.
Hanuman Goleman (43:20):
What does that moment feel like to you to see
this change in people?
Aaron Wolf (43:25):
I don't know how to describe it, except its
antithesis. So if you picture aMonday, I know here's a little
kids I know, you know, what anad is. An ad goes off and you
feel like a concussion in yourstomach. Right? You feel a
little bit of percussion goingoff. Right? So that's that's the
negative aspect of this. I thinkthere's also the positive
(43:47):
equivalent when this happens isthat there's a little puff of
positive energy that moves likea wave through a room, and you
see it if somebody if somebodysays something nice about the
other side, and suddenlyeverybody is complimenting
everybody else, when if somebodylistens particularly well to
(44:07):
somebody else, or reflects onwhat it must be like to be in
somebody else's position. Theseare the kinds of things that are
contagious, and that initialpercussion resonates throughout
the room. So I think it reallyis contagious in a way that's
that
Hanuman Goleman (44:24):
addictive. So there's a physical shift that
you experience. I think so. Sothis this episode is where
we're, we're exploring conflictmanagement within systems. I
wonder if if there are systemsthat you've experienced, that
have baked into the process,conflict management and a little
(44:48):
bit more to that. There'ssomething that you said you're
looking for these moments ofyour being aware of the places
where people are Having tension,whether it be fear or anger, or,
or these emotions that areactually representing
(45:08):
vulnerability that they're,they're protecting and it's that
vulnerability, of course, itended
Aaron Wolf (45:13):
at a very small scale. I think some aspects of
this are embedded culturally andyou know, their local
communities all over the worldthat have this kind of idea that
the relations in the communityare a community value and that
when these get torn or or orrent, it's incumbent on the
(45:37):
community to to help heal. Andso there's processes in
Afghanistan, they call they callit a Loya Jirga where the group
brings the elders bring peopletogether to resolve issues there
are there's this wonderfulceremony and and I learned about
it in Palestine called a sofa. Ithink it's it's more Middle East
(46:00):
wide. Where it's it's thisceremony of forgiveness. And the
goal is a combination of justiceand honor. Which is something
that that, again, we don't haveis the balance of, and I've seen
it enacted I've seen it inBedouin land courts, for
example, where the judge willsay something to one party,
(46:24):
you're right. But can we come toan agreement where the other
side can also take care of hisfamily? Right? This is the kind
of thing that I think is is thisbalance between the needs of the
individual and theresponsibility to the group.
This happens. I don't know ifit's scaling up. But I like to
(46:45):
think that people who are doingthis work, either around
individuals or aroundcommunities, where they're
helping people, I think that thekey skills are one listening
better. I think when you trulylisten to people, you get well
past the stories and the masksand the I think people who have
(47:07):
deep mindfulness practices areused to doing this with
themselves is where they listendeeply to themselves, they can
get past their own kind of masksand boundaries and get at more
of a truthful observations. Ithink it's true of other people
too, if you listen very deeplyto somebody else, you can
understand and empathize muchmore with who they are, and what
(47:31):
their their needs are. And so Ithink that that's what this
would look like people wholisten better to each other, who
take more of a communityapproach to our aspirations. And
you feel that, that justice andmercy or self and other or
boundedness and openness arereally not opposites, but rather
(47:57):
two very complimentaryattributions, both of which need
to be respected, both inindividuals and in society at
large.
Hanuman Goleman (48:09):
What happened in this example, the Mekong
basin,
Aaron Wolf (48:13):
they now have a clause in their agreement on how
to manage transboundaryenvironmental impacts, and
they've been doing thesecollaborative workshops and, and
it's just such a such awonderful part of the world. And
they've done so much, really toteach the rest of the world
about these really, reallydifficult issues, even around
areas of tension. So we're nowworking in Central Asia, and
(48:37):
we're thinking will will takethis group to the Mekong because
they've done such a remarkablejob in their own base. And I
think they have a lot to teachpeople who are just crafting
their own agreements as well.
Hanuman Goleman (48:49):
Thank you so much. Thanks, gentlemen.
Elizabeth Solomon (49:00):
Thanks for listening to our interview with
Aaron Wolf. If you enjoyed thisepisode, please share it with
your friends. And tune in nexttime when we'll talk with Karen
Ziggler about how she navigatedconflicts as the senior pastor
of an LGBTQ church in GreenwichVillage of height of the AIDS
epidemic.
Hanuman Goleman (49:20):
Before we go, it's time for Ask Dan Have you
Elizabeth Solomon (49:25):
ever wanted to ask Dan Goleman anything
about emotional intelligence,mindfulness, meditation or
leadership? Maybe purpose orlife in general?
Hanuman Goleman (49:35):
If you've got questions, Dan has answers.
Submit your question viavoicemail at Keystep
media.com/ask. Dan, yourquestion could be selected and
featured on an upcoming episode.
Hi, Dan. How to love a no onesays better.
Daniel Goleman (49:55):
I actually hear two different questions there.
One has to do with selfcompassion. Loving yourself. And
the other one has to do withknowing oneself. And I think
that an answer to both of thosehas to do with acceptance with
both knowing who you are, howyou think how you react, what
(50:17):
your emotions are, and beingokay with that. Not trying to
feel you need to fix itnecessarily not feeling that
there's something wrong with it,not judging it. But just being
with it. Just finding a way tolet it be accepted and to love
(50:39):
yourself for how you are rightnow. Not love yourself for
achieving some goal or changingbut you just as you are right
now
Kerry Seed (50:55):
that's our show.
Special thanks to Cora and Dan,whose voices you heard at the
top of our show, and to ourguests, the good Dr. Aaron Wolf.
You can find more about his workat trans Boundary Waters dot O R
s t.edu. And if that link is toohard to remember, just check our
episode notes on our website,first person plural.com. While
you're there, you can check outour guest BIOS transcripts and
(51:17):
resources mentioned in today'sepisode. You can also follow us
on Instagram at Keystep media.
If you enjoyed our discussionwith Aaron Wolf, check out some
of our past interviews. I'drecommend the episodes with
Britton and Bennett and AkelaColas are none of this would be
possible without our incredibleteam. Our hosts are Daniel
(51:39):
Goleman, Hanuman Goleman andElizabeth Solomon. Bryant
Johnson creates the beautifulart you see with each episode.
Our audio editor is MichelleZipkin. Serena Kardon does
marketing. Our music is by Ambrohaga and ghost beats. I am
Carrie seed. This podcast issponsored by Keystep media, your
source for personal andprofessional development
(52:00):
materials focused onmindfulness, leadership and
emotional intelligence. Nexttime, we'll dive deeper into
conflict management with ourguest, Karen Ziegler. Until
then, take care of yourself andwe'll talk soon
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