April 19, 2022 • 40 mins
Today, on First Person Plural, therapist Akhila Kolesar shares her awareness of multiple self identities and how her understanding of them has grown throughout her life.
Kolesar is a clinical psychologist specializing in trauma, relationship dynamics, identity development, anxiety and depression and difficult transitions. With a doctorate from the Institute of transpersonal psychology, she takes a whole person approach to psychotherapy, addressing the physical, mental, and spiritual self of each of her clients. She currently serves clients through her private practice in the San Francisco Bay Area.
Daniel Goleman talks about his Emotional Intelligence Courses, available at danielgolemanemotionalintelligence.com
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Cora (00:00):
What do you know about yourself? I like to read a lot.
And I like to draw and do valet.
And I also like to do scienceexperiments
Elizabeth Solomon (00:27):
Welcome to first person plural emotional
intelligence and beyond. I'mElizabeth Solomon.
Daniel Goleman (00:33):
And I'm Daniel Goleman. Our third host, Hanuman
Goleman is way on a retreat.
He'll be back next episode.
Elizabeth Solomon (00:40):
So in today's episode on self awareness, and
just to set the context for ourlisteners, this is a third
interview in a three partseries. So we started off this
series on self awareness bytalking to Dan Harris, the
founder of 10%, happier lookingat the philosophy of self
awareness, if you will. And thenwe spoke to Leslie nips, who's a
(01:04):
systemic constellate are lookingat how awareness plays out in
the system's level. And today,we're here talking about self
awareness from a very firstperson experience.
Daniel Goleman (01:13):
Self awareness generally means knowing what
you're feeling, why you'refeeling it, and what it leads
you to do in terms of how itmight shape your perceptions or
your impulses. And one of thethings that fascinates me about
self awareness is blind spotsare things that we don't allow
ourselves to notice, or thataren't consensually allowed. And
(01:38):
I think it's a very crucialpart, because it means that we
can know what we don't know orknow what we can't say, instead
of just turning away from it.
Elizabeth Solomon (01:50):
Today, on first person plural, we are
talking with Akela colas, ourwho is a clinical psychologist
specializing in trauma,relationship dynamics, identity
development, anxiety anddepression and difficult
transitions. With a doctoratefrom the Institute of
transpersonal psychology, shetakes a whole person approach to
(02:11):
psychotherapy, addressing thephysical, mental, and spiritual
self and each of her clients.
She currently serves clientsthrough her private practice in
the San Francisco Bay Area.
Welcome Akela we're so happy tohave you on the show. In a
previous conversation that wehad, I was telling a story to
(02:31):
you about laying on my bed whenI was about seven years old, and
staring at the ceiling andhaving this kind of moment of
like, what am I doing here onthe planet? Who am I? What is
this body? What is this thing wecall life? Is this just a dream?
And you responded to that storywith a story of a kind of your
own? First very young,existential moment, and I'd love
(02:55):
to just have you share that withour listeners.
Akhila Kolesar (02:58):
Yeah, it's funny how staring at the ceiling can
be a real venue for selfexploration as a kiddo. The
story I told you then was I wasprobably about five, and I was
visiting my grandma, which Iperiodically do for a little
sleepover. And you know, theenvironment was not the warmest
(03:18):
she was like this conservative,Polish Catholic, daughter of
immigrants. Lady, you know, whohad a what felt to me like a
sterile home, pictures of Jesusand crucifixes everywhere and
that sort of thing. Saints, youknow, thrown in drawers because
of the magical things that woulddo when they were in this or
that drawer, that sort of thing.
And it was time for bed. And I'mgoing into the guest room, which
(03:41):
of course was like, the roomthat my dad slept in, when he
was a kid, that bed was veryhigh. And so it was a very
strange bed to me. And she wouldtuck me in. And you know,
there's a crucifix over my headand photos of my aunt and my
uncle and my dad, all probablytheir senior photos. You know,
they were teenagers, which alsofelt like I was kind of back in
time. And we'd always praybefore bed. One of the prayers
(04:05):
referred to God as our Father,you know, and I kind of asked
her like, well, how is God myfather, if I already have a
father, and she's like, Well,God's all of our fathers, God
created everything. And therewas an immensity or kind of in
awe of that, that I reallyremember of, like remembering
the kids tales of Genesis andthings like that, that I had
(04:29):
been exposed to as a kid raisedCatholic and the Catholic school
and all of that, and, you know,kind of sitting there with her
and that that immensity of Godcreating everything of having
this new thought to me as a kid,oh, going, Wait a minute, if God
created everything who createdGod? And the mood just totally
shifted? You know, you couldjust feel grandma kind of
(04:51):
tighten up. This was not aquestion that was really
welcomed that warmth or thatopenness that had been there
just kind of got like sucked outof the room. And she's like,
well, we don't, you know, wedon't even have those don't have
those thoughts. It was kind ofjust shut down my heart. And
then she kind of tucked me inand left. And so here I'm left
now terrified, in a sense bythis whole beautiful image that
(05:13):
was created, you know, ofeverything's in its place,
creator and creation. And nowI'm alone in this room with this
creepy nightlight that kind of,you know, lit up the crucifix in
this way going, Oh, my God, Ibug guide quite literally, oh my
god, right. Like, what's greaterthan the greatest thing that
that we can imagine? And I don'tremember at this point if I
(05:35):
slept or not that night, but Idid remember, she's not the one
that I can talk to you about it.
And, you know, eventuallylearned that I couldn't really
talk to many people in theschool or in the faith that I
was raised in. I couldn't talkto many people about that
question there. So I startedlooking elsewhere.
Elizabeth Solomon (05:55):
I wanted to start with that story. Because I
think, well, it might not seemso directly related to self
awareness, right to be askingthese kind of larger existential
questions. I think the questionthat lies at the heart of self
awareness is equally isexistential right, which is who
am I? And whether that's tryingto figure out who am I in the
context of what we know aboutreligion or creation? Or who am
(06:18):
I in the context of somethingmore close, like a one on one
relationship? But I want to heara little bit about the many
iterations of that question thatyou might have asked yourself
over the years, and I hearcoming through in this story
that starting with this piece ofwho am I, in my surroundings?
What is my religious identity,right, some of these questions
(06:39):
about identity, that fold intoself awareness.
Akhila Kolesar (06:42):
See, identity is kind of a hard one. For me, I
find that like, I can go backand fill in some of the gaps.
But where I have now is that Ifeel like the older I get, and
the more I'm on my own road ofself discovery and discovery of
what this thing is magical thingof life really is, the more my
(07:02):
identities have kind of fallenaway or fallen to the wayside,
like I can grab them inconversation. You know, like the
work I've done around racialidentity, I can be like, Yes,
I'm a white person. And this iswhat that means, you know, or
Yes, I'm a woman or identifiedas a woman. And along the way, I
feel like identity has beenreally useful for me to kind of
get where I am now. And perhapspart of that path has been a
(07:26):
search for what am I that's ledme to this place of needing
identity at this point or not? Idon't know the language around
it is not totally formed. Butit's something that that when
asked kind of who am I though,the words that come are more
kind of descriptors of how Ishow up for how I try to show up
for my values, as opposed to,you know, what we might think of
(07:47):
as like, identity politics, likethe the identities that others
see us, as you know, or getreflected, you know, the social
relationship. And so seekerwould be one of those
identities, early experiences,as a kid has really, you know,
and I think probably part of mycharacter was that I was
probably born with was really togo out and seek the answers to
(08:08):
these big questions that wouldjust pop up inside. And nature
was a huge place where I wouldexplore that. And so being like
an earth warrior was certainlyan identity for a while, while
I'm really trying to let go ofthat idea of warrior. Even, you
know, as I come more intomidlife, it was something really
important to me, definitely, asa teen 20s, even 30s. And I'm
(08:31):
asking myself, like, Is thisgetting me the result that that
I want, or even we as a planetreally need right now?
Elizabeth Solomon (08:36):
I think you're speaking to something so
beautiful that on this path ofself awareness, like there's
many levels to self awareness,right. So there's just like
becoming aware of our bodiesbecoming aware of our emotions,
which is part of the way that wetalk about it and emotional
intelligence. And then as we'vekicked off this conversation,
becoming aware of who we are inthe world, and I resonate with
what you're saying, because Ithink it's true that we're like,
(08:56):
Okay, I'm discovering myself andlooking at my feelings, right,
I'm looking at how I show up incertain contexts. And there are
these things, these titles thatI can give to sort of talk about
those things in a very conciseway. And then eventually,
sometimes those titles start tofeel like narratives that we
don't fit entirely into, right.
And so, as we continue on thejourney of sort of self
(09:19):
awareness or self exploration,we realize, Oh, I'm much more
vast than even that singleidentity or that group of
identities. How that coulddescribe me. I'm curious, when
you think about self awareness,in the context of your own
experience, what are thedifferent ways that you think
about self awareness or thiscapacity to become aware of
(09:41):
yourself?
Akhila Kolesar (09:45):
Wow, it's a great question. I mean, for me,
I think of our nervous system asreally being one way to think
about a nervous system is kindof like our our gut reaction,
our instinctual or gut reactionto the world. to know, that
incorporates more than thenervous system explicitly, you
know, the pulmonary system, theheart by cardiac, I know
(10:06):
incorporates more, but what Imean by a nervous system is kind
of pointing to that way that wekind of instinctually respond,
that first hit we get, before weeven identify a feeling as an
emotion, what's the sensationthat's there, and in my body,
you know, and kids are reallyaware of this often, because
they tend to act in the worldfrom that place without, you
(10:30):
know, all the layers of shameand, you know, thinking things
through and anticipatory anxietybeing layered on top of how they
respond to, they tend to justreact, particularly the human
littler ones, you know, and itmakes sense, evolutionarily for
our brains and our nervoussystems to learn in an
environment and kind ofentrained to it, you know, so
that we respond fast to what ourenvironments requiring of us,
(10:54):
which makes a lot of sense, ifwe think about times, where
maybe we were, I don't know,living with predators a lot
closer nearby than, than we donow. And so, really
understanding for myself, whatare the things that tend to make
me angry? You know, and how canhow can I really explore those
so that I don't feel soinstinctually? Angry about them?
(11:14):
Or what are the things that tendto get me feeling hopeless or
Despairing or shame or whateverthe reaction might be? You know,
it's those negative feelingsthat tend to draw us to that
question in the first place, Ithink we don't tend to ask the
question, why does this make meso happy, we just tend to enjoy
it, you know, but I am curiousabout particularly with coming
into midlife and looking at myown relationship to sleep, and
(11:37):
how that's changing, or myrelationship to rest.
Elizabeth Solomon (11:41):
Say more about that your relationship to
rest, it just perked my ears up?
Akhila Kolesar (11:45):
Well, there's something about like, having a
successful business, doing allthis work, particularly all
those graduate work was inschool for like 12 years, just
something wild, you know, tokind of get all that done, and
then creating a business andthen doing all the steps from
like, Okay, I've launched andnow there's this other
successful practice like this isgreat. And then realizing that
(12:07):
part of maintaining a successfulpractice is being able to ON OFF
time really take excellent careof myself. And what's so easy to
do, particularly, I think, inthe US, maybe particularly in
the Bay Area, too, there's akind of pace, so go, go go pace,
it's really easy to kind of fillup that free time, with not only
things to improve myself, orimprove my business, you know,
(12:31):
or to maximise on thepotentiality of life, I think
there's a way where we've becomealmost like addicted to this
living life to its absolute mostpotential, which can create a
lot of pressure, actually, youknow, we don't tend to consider
deep rest, as a critical part oflife.
Elizabeth Solomon (12:53):
They also think there's this piece around
rest that I to experience as abusiness owner, where I'm like,
if I want to really evolve mywork in the world, however, I
define that rest is part ofthat, too, because there are
questions I only asked myself,or experiences of myself, or my
psyche that I only have whenthere's a lot of space.
Akhila Kolesar (13:14):
Exactly, absolutely, we can get creative
when we're under pressure,thankfully, you know, that's in
there too. Yet, what we canactually really design for
ourselves, for our lives, thekind of conversations we can
have with, say, with theuniverse with kind of everything
within it totally changes whenwe don't have that do do
(13:35):
pressure, which does have aneffect on the nervous system.
You know, we know that that canresult in adrenal fatigue, you
know, or it can result in thesekind of chronic health
conditions, you know, which tendto then bring to our bodies, we
started by talking about bodyawareness. And it's by having
that body awareness that Istarted to be able to realize,
(13:55):
oh, gosh, okay, my body isactually going to stop me if I
don't stop myself, you know,whether it's migraine difficulty
sleeping, you know, some othersymptoms that I've had, like, go
into or not, you know, eitherway, but it's through these,
what I would call even dramaticexperiences of turning off or
trying to provide the space todo to do the turning off that do
(14:18):
do that this whole other arenaopens up. And dream work is
something we've talked a littlebit about before.
Elizabeth Solomon (14:24):
Yeah, I want to get into this a little bit,
cuz I think you're starting totease something out, which is
that there's sort of two andthere's many more, but there's
two very clear ways into sort ofself awareness or becoming aware
of ourselves. And I think of oneas being like a very cognitive
conscious process. Right. Sookay, I know rage is a great
example. Even before I know I'mfeeling rage, if I can really
(14:45):
slow things down, I know that mybody is already responding
before I have the cognitivethought of I'm really mad,
right? And so there's that levelof self awareness that feels
very like in the waking moment,right where I'm like, Okay, I'm
going to slow down. I'm going totrack how I'm feeling My body's
tensing up up, I'm feeling rage,okay, I can like name an
emotion, right? What we mightcall a kind of straightforward
(15:07):
sort of form of emotional selfawareness. But then there's this
whole other realm of thesubconscious that you're talking
about when you're talking aboutdreams. And I just want to have
you share with our listeners alittle bit about of what is your
relationship to dream work? Whatis your practice around? Dreams?
How do you use dreams, as a toolfor better understanding
(15:28):
yourself and where you're at atany given moment?
Akhila Kolesar (15:31):
There are so many traditions of of dream
work, you know, I think theaborigines of Australia have
probably developed dreampractice better than any of us
have. So mine's really comingfrom a Western lens here, United
States and lens and apsychological lens because I
can't tease that out for myself.
But for me, when I think aboutdream work, it's really about
intentionality. Like everysingle time I fall asleep, I
(15:54):
have an opportunity to have aconversation with my
unconscious. Thanks to SaraMcLean Bicknell, who's my
current dream teacher, andsomeone who's helped me bring
more intentionality into mypractice. Because of her I have
started using my before bed timeto bring in more questions where
(16:15):
I will actually sometimesincubate a question before,
before bed, do like a shortmeditation, kind of, you know,
centering myself around this ismy intention going in, it gives
me a lens, then in the morningwith which to look at the dream,
or dreams, like a show me moreabout this item, and then having
(16:36):
the dreams and then being reallycommitted. Also wake up at 2am.
Okay, gotta write it down, orrecord it in some way.
Elizabeth Solomon (16:45):
Can you give us an example of a question, or
an intention you might hold?
Going into the dream space?
Akhila Kolesar (16:52):
Yeah, recently, I incubated a question. That
was, that was something like,show me what I need to know
about my unique expression ofleadership in this lifetime?
That's a biggie. You know, Idon't know if that in this
lifetime was actually useful ornot. But that's, you know, Dream
(17:14):
questions, can you work inprogress too. And so I did my
little different things that Ithat I do before incubating.
Sometimes having a particularstone that I just really love, I
call it my dream stone, puttingthat beside my bed, and then
having the notebook ready. Andthat particular night, I
remember waking up to pee at3am. And going, Okay, I have I
(17:38):
have these dreams, you know, andso kind of finagling with the
light to be able to scribble as,as I can at 3am handwriting
getting everything down that Ican remember, and then starting
to fall asleep and rememberinganother piece and having to get
up to write that piece downagain. So that's the discipline
part of it really beingcommitted to writing down
everything you can remember. Andthe next morning having another
(17:58):
dream fragment that I added toit. And then as for analysis,
going back to what I mentioned,about there being so many
different approaches to dreamwork, you know, I have, I have
studied in practice, the moreanalytic approach to dreams.
Work with Jeremy Taylor, who Ijust love that really, practices
(18:20):
like viewing the dream on allparts of the dream as parts of
our very own selves. And I'velet all that get a little bit
looser, in my practice. Now, youknow, given the guide of the
teacher who I'm working with,and we tend to look at dreams in
a more, I guess, in a moreholistic or even more, she might
(18:41):
say, more like an indigenousperspective of really trying to
pay close attention toenvironment, plants and animals,
any medicine that might be inthe dream. And I'll put medicine
with like air quotes around it,things that might actually be
kind of antidotes for what wetend to suffer with, in our
conscious waking life. So, soyeah, I mean, from for example,
(19:04):
from the stream, I got to workit in a group, you know, which
also feels like such a giftevery time a group is available
to do that for me, because thereflections I get back from
other people when they were mydream, and look at it through
the lens of my questions isalways different than what I can
see myself, I find that for me,it's essential to have other
(19:25):
other people, other beings in myworld to really understand
myself. It just adds all thecolor it says if I my own self
analysis of my dreams, creates ablack and white image and having
other people wear my dream, putall the color in.
Elizabeth Solomon (19:40):
This brings me to something so important.
And I think, you know, there'smany ways we can talk about
this. So if we're thinking aboutbuilding self awareness of
ourselves as leaders in a verycorporate environment, right, we
might talk about a 360evaluation. Same thing, we step
into our community and we sayplease help me understand
myself. Right. And I hear yousaying In this with the dream
work to, it's not even thatyou're looking at these dreams
(20:03):
in isolation, you're invitingother people into the process
with you. And so I'm actuallywonder if you could speak a
little bit to that role ofcommunity or of other in helping
us build self awareness, knowingthat the very term self
awareness, I think reinforcesour kind of sense of
individuality, right, there's aninclination to think like, this
(20:24):
is me looking at myself, andthis is something that kind of
happens in isolation. And yet,we know that some of the most
effective ways of building selfawareness are not in isolation
at all.
Akhila Kolesar (20:36):
Absolutely, that's through my participation
in a role and community thatI've really learned about
myself. And I've been able toreceive those reflections and
the honor really, from otherpeople kind of honoring me up
for what I, how I have servedthe community and vice versa,
I've really been able to seemyself as an important part of a
(21:00):
beautiful hole. So it doesreinforce my value, like my
value of myself, my value ofthis life, my life, you know,
the kind of preciousness of thatlife, and also how it's like the
big Crayola box for somethingthat's really joyous about
having this, this beautifulinterconnectivity of all of
(21:21):
these different roles. Not thatit's not without its drama, too,
of course, at times, too, whichis another way when we're
supported in community that waythat we get to learn about
ourselves, you know, of havingrupturing and repair with
another person. I'm wondering
Elizabeth Solomon (21:35):
if you have an example of that of something
that you have learned aboutyourself through sort of showing
up in the context of group worksupporting another person,
Akhila Kolesar (21:47):
I think about a community that I'm a part of
now, where it's a learningenvironment, but we're also
practicing together as a way tolearn. And, you know, you join a
group, and pretty quickly, thisis true for me, I think, true
for many of us that prettyquickly, we go, Oh, I like you,
you and you, I do not like you,you know, and I, you really
annoy me, and it's like everyonegets within the first hour, we
(22:11):
decide who everyone is. And mostof the time, the story is more
complex than that. And when wehave sudden community, that's
usually where we all start. Andwhen we have opportunities to
really show up for another, thenwe get to have more of that full
experience, and really a morefull bodied experience. So in
this learning community that I'mtalking about, I kind of decided
(22:32):
I don't really like this person,for all sorts of reasons, you
know, they're, everything seemsto be about them. And they kind
of hug them like, and, you know,I've had kind of enough I want,
I want them to be morecontained, you know, and it's
through really sitting next tothem. Because that was the chair
that was available during aparticularly activating piece of
(22:54):
the work for them activating forthem, I think, emotional for all
of us, but especially activatingfor them that I realized, Oh,
they're really suffering here.
You know, I got to see more ofthe complex trauma that they
were coming with. And I've hadsuch incredible privilege, you
know, and such incredibleopportunity to do a lot of
healing, not like I'm done. ButI'm aware that not all of us
(23:18):
who've had access, and the waythat I have, and with me being
next to them once they softened,and I got to see more of what
what their suffering was about.
I was just incredibly moved tobe support. And so here, I
perhaps ironically, ended upbeing the one who was quite
literally even holding a peer ofmine, who was going through big
(23:41):
suffering, that I was able tosee in the moment. Oh, right.
This was not her fault. This issomething that she has carried.
You know, and the motivation tokind of show to show up was
just, I don't know, if I shouldeven call it motivation. It was
just instantaneous. There was anempathic resonance, and I was
the one there and it's like, oh,come here. Right. And I could
(24:03):
offer that support. Yeah. Whatdoes
Elizabeth Solomon (24:05):
that teach you about yourself?
Akhila Kolesar (24:06):
I mean, there's the there's the immediate part,
which is, hey, don't be so quickto judge which, of course, our
cognitive mind is gonna
Unknown (24:14):
do that. You're like, gosh, you judge II know,
whatever, you know, I'll judgemyself for being so judgy.
Akhila Kolesar (24:21):
Right, exactly.
The double judge that's there.
So there's some of that, ofcourse, and you know, I don't
know that we can ever slow downour judgments. I think it'll
probably still be thereautomatic, but maybe don't catch
it. Don't let it get rigid, notlet it decide who people are. So
there's, there's that piece ofit. But there's also something
that's really beautiful for mein being able to see.
(24:45):
Thankfully, too. It's kind ofreassuring to be able to see
that the judge can fall awaythat there is a deeply loving,
there's a part of me that willis so committed to just showing
up. And it's such a strong valueof mine. I'll talk But it was
people like we get lost in ourown despair. You know, it's not
effective for the future of thisworld, we need to really be able
(25:06):
and are willing to show up tomake any sort of change. And so
I'm so grateful that in thatmoment, you know, I wasn't held
back by that judgment, and thatI could, I guess, honor myself,
and certainly, I mean, sheexpressed tons of gratitude to
me later. And all of this aswell, you know, about being
really able to show up as theframe that we held after that is
(25:28):
kind of like big sister. And I'mthe youngest in my family. So I
have not had the opportunity tobe a big sister to many, and
maybe a few friends or siblingsor friends and things like that
along the way. And so this wasjust such an instantaneous poll
that I'm like, Okay, I couldeven as Big Sister, I can have
my judgment sometimes. Rightlike that. Also, there's room
(25:49):
for that. But when it comes downto it, I'm going to show up, and
I'm going to be there.
Elizabeth Solomon (25:54):
Yeah, I think you're also speaking a little
bit about becoming aware, too,of how our intentions affect
what part of ourselves we'reable to sort of live into,
right. And I think that exampleof stepping into a new group is
amazing, right? Because there'sa part of us that's like, Who
here is safe? Who here is not? Ilike I'm in a new environment,
everything's overwhelming. Ineed to categorize people
(26:14):
instantaneously. So I can likemake sense of my surroundings,
right? And yet, the questionthat you arrive at, in this
group experience with thisperson is how can I be of
support? This brings me toactually a question about one
thing I found really helpful inmy own self awareness practice
(26:34):
is a little bit of parts work,which goes by many different
names, but being able to observemyself and different aspects of
myself and being able to givethem names and, and think about,
you know, okay, I have thejudge, okay, I have the person
who has a lot of rage, oh, she'sangry. Okay, I have this really
other like, really joyful side,oh, I have the inner child,
(26:56):
right. However, we want to namethose parts and seeing them all
as being a piece of us. And I'mwondering if that has been
influential to your work at all,either for yourself or with
clients, and how that helps sortof relieve the shame layer that
often follows becoming aware ofourselves and our emotions and
our behaviors?
Akhila Kolesar (27:16):
Oh, yeah, absolutely. Deke Schwartz and
internal family systems hasreally been the foundation of
the parts work that that I'velearned yet, even like I
mentioned, Jeremy Taylor earlyand looking at dreams, through
each of the different elementsin the dream, including the
house, including the clouds, youknow, as being parts of our very
own selves. And what I loveabout ifs internal family
(27:39):
systems, is there's not just thefocus on parts, but also this
core focus on what we might callcapital S self. Right, I have
this kind of central what Ithink of as like the hub of the
wheel, all the parts is beinglike spokes. But when I have
orientation to that hub of thewheel, when I'm able to really
kind of come back to center,come back to my back body really
(28:01):
feel supported by the chair bythe world, you know that I'm
able to take one of those deepbelly breaths and turn towards
whatever the feeling is that'scoming up whatever part is, has
been activated, and respond toit so differently, you know,
because then I get to be able toask the question of myself, and
this is true with with myclients to try to support them
in parts, because I find itimmensely useful, and helping us
(28:23):
to build self compassion.
Because when we're able to kindof sit in our back bodies, and
really kind of find our centerand not be so blended with a
particular part that's up, thenwe get to ask, what are you
working so hard to do right now?
judgey part, you know, to yourpoint from earlier, it's about
safety. Well, if I can reallyunderstand when judgey part
(28:45):
steps up, that I'm feelingscared, that I'm feeling unsafe,
and I'm trying to identify, youknow, who are my allies in the
room, then there's so much moreroom there for compassion and
understanding of that judgy partand I'm not necessarily ruled by
it. Right, I get to lead myselfthrough this new environment or
(29:06):
this room of new people. And atthe same time, kind of like be
holding my judgy part, knowingthat it's a protector for one
that's actually really scared,which then may bring me into
relationship. Ideally,hopefully, with that little one
who's scared who's going, Oh, Iwas bullied as a kid. What are
people seeing in me? are theyjudging me right now? Probably
(29:28):
because I'm judging them. It'sone that's really terrified.
that I get to be with my littlelike, seven year old part while
also being my, my current self,and also be with this. This
bratty, perhaps adolescent partof me that's this judgy one that
has snarky, witty things to sayabout everyone and everything.
Yeah.
Unknown (29:52):
In Dan Harris's interview for our first act, he
shared a quote that said Selfknowledge is always As bad news,
Akhila Kolesar (30:01):
I think for me, my path around self awareness
has always there's beensomething kind of magical about
it. There's something that'sgotten me excited inside, even
those big questions, you know,like that first one of God
created everything, what, who orwhat created God, like there was
something really terrifying inthat, but there was something
that hooked me that was almostlike, seductive about that
(30:24):
question. However, you know,when I think about self
awareness of our, of my innerjudge, you know, or of the
impact I've had on other peopleat times when I've let my even
righteous rage, you know,control my actions, and I can
relate more to that question ofit being bad news. One story
that comes to me as I reflectupon this is how I remember I
(30:50):
think it was 11. I rememberlearning from a friend's mom,
that in some places people eatdog. And I grew up with dogs. My
first primary relationship waswith a Giant Schnauzer, named
Butch. Like, dogs are my peeps,you know, as a kid, especially.
(31:11):
And it's hugely attached toanimals, and really found great
social safety with them as ayoungster. And so I was
appalled. When I learned thisnow, you know, cultural
relativity and stuff. I'mputting that aside for for a
moment, because I was 11 at thetime and didn't really get those
pieces. But I thought, wait aminute, people eat dogs. Oh, no,
and then learn people eat horsesand I rode horses are like, Oh,
(31:34):
no, this is horrible. And thenI'm like, wait a minute, how is
this different than cows? How isthis different than pigs? You
know, like, I met cows and pigson farms, or, you know, petting
zoos, things like that. I'mthinking, Wait a minute, like,
my family that stuff all thetime. We mean, and so I couldn't
eat meat anymore. At 11, Idecided, okay, there's no
(31:55):
different I know that there's nodifference between a dog and a
pig. I can't eat meat. We couldargue about chickens or fish.
But you know, I stopped eatingall of them. Because I thought,
well, they all haveconsciousness, they all have
feelings, I understand thecomplex emotions that dogs can
feel or thought I did, you know,as a kid. And so I couldn't eat
meat anymore. And so thatawareness, you know, really felt
like bad news that I could thenself organize around identities
(32:18):
being vegetarian. Again, when Ilearned about factory farming
and all of that at 16, I becamevegan because I thought, Okay,
this is just all bad. Andwasn't, then until I left high
school to do kind of like a backto the land thing. All I wanted
to do was learn how to farm, Ithought I just want to have no
negative impact. So let me goout to California because I grew
(32:39):
up in Cleveland, not a placethat was super friendly to
vegans at the time. And so I waslike, let me go to California,
I'm gonna, I'm going to practicefarming, I'm going to learn how
to do sustainable living so thatI can opt out from this really
harmful lifestyle that I'veinherited, you know, as the
United States in, and of course,I get to the farms, and they're
(33:03):
killing animals is a way toprotect the vegetables. Oh, my
God, I couldn't get away fromit. I mean, poor gophers. I
don't know how many generationsof gophers were killed, you
know, and I'm being allrighteous, like, I'm not going
to set the gopher traps, whichthe farmer didn't carry, set it
anyways. You know, I rememberwhen ravens kept coming down to
eat the seed that was laid out.
And these are small scalefarmers. These are not like the
(33:25):
big rich agribusiness folks, youknow, they're all organic in
Northern California. And theRavens were coming out to eat
the seed. And so this one farmershot a raven hung him up by his
toes or something like that inthe field. And I gotta tell you,
like, the Raven stopped comingto eat the seeds. It was so sad,
and it was so sick. And therewas this way that I had to
really like, accept that therewas no way as a human being on
(33:48):
this planet. Maybe as a sentientbeing, I'm not sure there's no
way that I can truly opt outfrom having some degree of
impact, we might call it harm onmy environment. And with having
to accept that like that createsits own kind of process, I think
of self awareness of, of comingto accept some of these
(34:12):
existential givens of I'm goingto hurt things in people and of
course, I can be mindful of thedegree of harm and intentional
harm and things like that. Butthis has really led to me now
you know, I am no longer vegan.
I'm no longer vegetarian, butI'm incredibly committed to
eating local I have incredibleprivilege living in California
(34:33):
to be able to eat local to beable to shop at farmer's markets
that are year round. So I seeyou know, an immense amount of
privilege in that you're gettingto
Elizabeth Solomon (34:41):
a question that I was going to ask you
which is how the act of becomingaware of oneself one's emotions,
one's impact, etc. how thatchanges your relationship to the
world and what I'm hearing isthat you identified very early
on this value around no harm andhad to go through like multiday.
decades of reckoning with thatright? From like the
(35:03):
righteousness of I'm going to beone of those good people who
causes no harm to therealization that part of living
in a system or an ecosystem isthat everything we do has an
impact on some other part of thesystem. And we don't always know
what that is. And it's certainlynot always for good, right. But
again, as your self awarenesshas expanded, any other things
you can say about how yourrelationship to the world has
(35:23):
changed, and that could just bevery interpersonal, in terms of
your relationships that are veryclose, or much larger?
Akhila Kolesar (35:32):
That's a great question. This takes me in some
ways back to the question aroundidentity, and how, as my self
awareness has grown, or changedover time, and impacted by the
decades, like you said, there'sa way that I've kind of more and
more really seen myself as anEarthling. That might sound kind
(35:52):
of silly, but being outside andparticularly in wild spaces is a
huge resource for me. And it's aplace where self awareness feels
very easy. So backpacking issomething I try to do multiple
times a year, because there'ssomething about coming down to
the simplicity, and not beingimpacted by media having an
immediate break, literallycarrying just the very simple
(36:14):
things that I'm gonna have whileI'm out there, just having
voice, meaning, like, I don'treally carry radio with me. So
it's like our own song that wemight create, or conversation or
silence hearing. And it's notsilent, hearing the natural
world out there. I think moreand more, I've really seen how
incredibly connected I feel tothis earth, in the sky, but also
(36:37):
like this ecosystem, and moreand more, try to even see myself
as an animal as opposed to ahuman. To kind of just
decentralize, to decentralizethe idea of self, maybe, you
know, with my clients, I'm kindof in there, and I'm very much a
human being with them, you know,and my own self awareness allows
(37:00):
me to own my mistakes, you know,or try to, like, when I noticed
that they happen or when it'sreflected to me by others, you
know, that it's happened. Andit's when I'm more self aware
and willing to see again, thisis in the context of harm, I
guess how I harmed another howit impacted another, especially
(37:23):
if it's unintentional harm, thenthe pathway to repair becomes
evident, if it's possible, andso I can be in more intimate
relationships the more selfaware I am
What do you know about yourself? I like to read a lot.
And I like to draw and do valet.
And I also like to do scienceexperiments
Elizabeth Solomon (00:27):
Welcome to first person plural emotional
intelligence and beyond. I'mElizabeth Solomon.
Daniel Goleman (00:33):
And I'm Daniel Goleman. Our third host, Hanuman
Goleman is way on a retreat.
He'll be back next episode.
Elizabeth Solomon (00:40):
So in today's episode on self awareness, and
just to set the context for ourlisteners, this is a third
interview in a three partseries. So we started off this
series on self awareness bytalking to Dan Harris, the
founder of 10%, happier lookingat the philosophy of self
awareness, if you will. And thenwe spoke to Leslie nips, who's a
(01:04):
systemic constellate are lookingat how awareness plays out in
the system's level. And today,we're here talking about self
awareness from a very firstperson experience.
Daniel Goleman (01:13):
Self awareness generally means knowing what
you're feeling, why you'refeeling it, and what it leads
you to do in terms of how itmight shape your perceptions or
your impulses. And one of thethings that fascinates me about
self awareness is blind spotsare things that we don't allow
ourselves to notice, or thataren't consensually allowed. And
(01:38):
I think it's a very crucialpart, because it means that we
can know what we don't know orknow what we can't say, instead
of just turning away from it.
Elizabeth Solomon (01:50):
Today, on first person plural, we are
talking with Akela colas, ourwho is a clinical psychologist
specializing in trauma,relationship dynamics, identity
development, anxiety anddepression and difficult
transitions. With a doctoratefrom the Institute of
transpersonal psychology, shetakes a whole person approach to
(02:11):
psychotherapy, addressing thephysical, mental, and spiritual
self and each of her clients.
She currently serves clientsthrough her private practice in
the San Francisco Bay Area.
Welcome Akela we're so happy tohave you on the show. In a
previous conversation that wehad, I was telling a story to
(02:31):
you about laying on my bed whenI was about seven years old, and
staring at the ceiling andhaving this kind of moment of
like, what am I doing here onthe planet? Who am I? What is
this body? What is this thing wecall life? Is this just a dream?
And you responded to that storywith a story of a kind of your
own? First very young,existential moment, and I'd love
(02:55):
to just have you share that withour listeners.
Akhila Kolesar (02:58):
Yeah, it's funny how staring at the ceiling can
be a real venue for selfexploration as a kiddo. The
story I told you then was I wasprobably about five, and I was
visiting my grandma, which Iperiodically do for a little
sleepover. And you know, theenvironment was not the warmest
(03:18):
she was like this conservative,Polish Catholic, daughter of
immigrants. Lady, you know, whohad a what felt to me like a
sterile home, pictures of Jesusand crucifixes everywhere and
that sort of thing. Saints, youknow, thrown in drawers because
of the magical things that woulddo when they were in this or
that drawer, that sort of thing.
And it was time for bed. And I'mgoing into the guest room, which
(03:41):
of course was like, the roomthat my dad slept in, when he
was a kid, that bed was veryhigh. And so it was a very
strange bed to me. And she wouldtuck me in. And you know,
there's a crucifix over my headand photos of my aunt and my
uncle and my dad, all probablytheir senior photos. You know,
they were teenagers, which alsofelt like I was kind of back in
time. And we'd always praybefore bed. One of the prayers
(04:05):
referred to God as our Father,you know, and I kind of asked
her like, well, how is God myfather, if I already have a
father, and she's like, Well,God's all of our fathers, God
created everything. And therewas an immensity or kind of in
awe of that, that I reallyremember of, like remembering
the kids tales of Genesis andthings like that, that I had
(04:29):
been exposed to as a kid raisedCatholic and the Catholic school
and all of that, and, you know,kind of sitting there with her
and that that immensity of Godcreating everything of having
this new thought to me as a kid,oh, going, Wait a minute, if God
created everything who createdGod? And the mood just totally
shifted? You know, you couldjust feel grandma kind of
(04:51):
tighten up. This was not aquestion that was really
welcomed that warmth or thatopenness that had been there
just kind of got like sucked outof the room. And she's like,
well, we don't, you know, wedon't even have those don't have
those thoughts. It was kind ofjust shut down my heart. And
then she kind of tucked me inand left. And so here I'm left
now terrified, in a sense bythis whole beautiful image that
(05:13):
was created, you know, ofeverything's in its place,
creator and creation. And nowI'm alone in this room with this
creepy nightlight that kind of,you know, lit up the crucifix in
this way going, Oh, my God, Ibug guide quite literally, oh my
god, right. Like, what's greaterthan the greatest thing that
that we can imagine? And I don'tremember at this point if I
(05:35):
slept or not that night, but Idid remember, she's not the one
that I can talk to you about it.
And, you know, eventuallylearned that I couldn't really
talk to many people in theschool or in the faith that I
was raised in. I couldn't talkto many people about that
question there. So I startedlooking elsewhere.
Elizabeth Solomon (05:55):
I wanted to start with that story. Because I
think, well, it might not seemso directly related to self
awareness, right to be askingthese kind of larger existential
questions. I think the questionthat lies at the heart of self
awareness is equally isexistential right, which is who
am I? And whether that's tryingto figure out who am I in the
context of what we know aboutreligion or creation? Or who am
(06:18):
I in the context of somethingmore close, like a one on one
relationship? But I want to heara little bit about the many
iterations of that question thatyou might have asked yourself
over the years, and I hearcoming through in this story
that starting with this piece ofwho am I, in my surroundings?
What is my religious identity,right, some of these questions
(06:39):
about identity, that fold intoself awareness.
Akhila Kolesar (06:42):
See, identity is kind of a hard one. For me, I
find that like, I can go backand fill in some of the gaps.
But where I have now is that Ifeel like the older I get, and
the more I'm on my own road ofself discovery and discovery of
what this thing is magical thingof life really is, the more my
(07:02):
identities have kind of fallenaway or fallen to the wayside,
like I can grab them inconversation. You know, like the
work I've done around racialidentity, I can be like, Yes,
I'm a white person. And this iswhat that means, you know, or
Yes, I'm a woman or identifiedas a woman. And along the way, I
feel like identity has beenreally useful for me to kind of
get where I am now. And perhapspart of that path has been a
(07:26):
search for what am I that's ledme to this place of needing
identity at this point or not? Idon't know the language around
it is not totally formed. Butit's something that that when
asked kind of who am I though,the words that come are more
kind of descriptors of how Ishow up for how I try to show up
for my values, as opposed to,you know, what we might think of
(07:47):
as like, identity politics, likethe the identities that others
see us, as you know, or getreflected, you know, the social
relationship. And so seekerwould be one of those
identities, early experiences,as a kid has really, you know,
and I think probably part of mycharacter was that I was
probably born with was really togo out and seek the answers to
(08:08):
these big questions that wouldjust pop up inside. And nature
was a huge place where I wouldexplore that. And so being like
an earth warrior was certainlyan identity for a while, while
I'm really trying to let go ofthat idea of warrior. Even, you
know, as I come more intomidlife, it was something really
important to me, definitely, asa teen 20s, even 30s. And I'm
(08:31):
asking myself, like, Is thisgetting me the result that that
I want, or even we as a planetreally need right now?
Elizabeth Solomon (08:36):
I think you're speaking to something so
beautiful that on this path ofself awareness, like there's
many levels to self awareness,right. So there's just like
becoming aware of our bodiesbecoming aware of our emotions,
which is part of the way that wetalk about it and emotional
intelligence. And then as we'vekicked off this conversation,
becoming aware of who we are inthe world, and I resonate with
what you're saying, because Ithink it's true that we're like,
(08:56):
Okay, I'm discovering myself andlooking at my feelings, right,
I'm looking at how I show up incertain contexts. And there are
these things, these titles thatI can give to sort of talk about
those things in a very conciseway. And then eventually,
sometimes those titles start tofeel like narratives that we
don't fit entirely into, right.
And so, as we continue on thejourney of sort of self
(09:19):
awareness or self exploration,we realize, Oh, I'm much more
vast than even that singleidentity or that group of
identities. How that coulddescribe me. I'm curious, when
you think about self awareness,in the context of your own
experience, what are thedifferent ways that you think
about self awareness or thiscapacity to become aware of
(09:41):
yourself?
Akhila Kolesar (09:45):
Wow, it's a great question. I mean, for me,
I think of our nervous system asreally being one way to think
about a nervous system is kindof like our our gut reaction,
our instinctual or gut reactionto the world. to know, that
incorporates more than thenervous system explicitly, you
know, the pulmonary system, theheart by cardiac, I know
(10:06):
incorporates more, but what Imean by a nervous system is kind
of pointing to that way that wekind of instinctually respond,
that first hit we get, before weeven identify a feeling as an
emotion, what's the sensationthat's there, and in my body,
you know, and kids are reallyaware of this often, because
they tend to act in the worldfrom that place without, you
(10:30):
know, all the layers of shameand, you know, thinking things
through and anticipatory anxietybeing layered on top of how they
respond to, they tend to justreact, particularly the human
littler ones, you know, and itmakes sense, evolutionarily for
our brains and our nervoussystems to learn in an
environment and kind ofentrained to it, you know, so
that we respond fast to what ourenvironments requiring of us,
(10:54):
which makes a lot of sense, ifwe think about times, where
maybe we were, I don't know,living with predators a lot
closer nearby than, than we donow. And so, really
understanding for myself, whatare the things that tend to make
me angry? You know, and how canhow can I really explore those
so that I don't feel soinstinctually? Angry about them?
(11:14):
Or what are the things that tendto get me feeling hopeless or
Despairing or shame or whateverthe reaction might be? You know,
it's those negative feelingsthat tend to draw us to that
question in the first place, Ithink we don't tend to ask the
question, why does this make meso happy, we just tend to enjoy
it, you know, but I am curiousabout particularly with coming
into midlife and looking at myown relationship to sleep, and
(11:37):
how that's changing, or myrelationship to rest.
Elizabeth Solomon (11:41):
Say more about that your relationship to
rest, it just perked my ears up?
Akhila Kolesar (11:45):
Well, there's something about like, having a
successful business, doing allthis work, particularly all
those graduate work was inschool for like 12 years, just
something wild, you know, tokind of get all that done, and
then creating a business andthen doing all the steps from
like, Okay, I've launched andnow there's this other
successful practice like this isgreat. And then realizing that
(12:07):
part of maintaining a successfulpractice is being able to ON OFF
time really take excellent careof myself. And what's so easy to
do, particularly, I think, inthe US, maybe particularly in
the Bay Area, too, there's akind of pace, so go, go go pace,
it's really easy to kind of fillup that free time, with not only
things to improve myself, orimprove my business, you know,
(12:31):
or to maximise on thepotentiality of life, I think
there's a way where we've becomealmost like addicted to this
living life to its absolute mostpotential, which can create a
lot of pressure, actually, youknow, we don't tend to consider
deep rest, as a critical part oflife.
Elizabeth Solomon (12:53):
They also think there's this piece around
rest that I to experience as abusiness owner, where I'm like,
if I want to really evolve mywork in the world, however, I
define that rest is part ofthat, too, because there are
questions I only asked myself,or experiences of myself, or my
psyche that I only have whenthere's a lot of space.
Akhila Kolesar (13:14):
Exactly, absolutely, we can get creative
when we're under pressure,thankfully, you know, that's in
there too. Yet, what we canactually really design for
ourselves, for our lives, thekind of conversations we can
have with, say, with theuniverse with kind of everything
within it totally changes whenwe don't have that do do
(13:35):
pressure, which does have aneffect on the nervous system.
You know, we know that that canresult in adrenal fatigue, you
know, or it can result in thesekind of chronic health
conditions, you know, which tendto then bring to our bodies, we
started by talking about bodyawareness. And it's by having
that body awareness that Istarted to be able to realize,
(13:55):
oh, gosh, okay, my body isactually going to stop me if I
don't stop myself, you know,whether it's migraine difficulty
sleeping, you know, some othersymptoms that I've had, like, go
into or not, you know, eitherway, but it's through these,
what I would call even dramaticexperiences of turning off or
trying to provide the space todo to do the turning off that do
(14:18):
do that this whole other arenaopens up. And dream work is
something we've talked a littlebit about before.
Elizabeth Solomon (14:24):
Yeah, I want to get into this a little bit,
cuz I think you're starting totease something out, which is
that there's sort of two andthere's many more, but there's
two very clear ways into sort ofself awareness or becoming aware
of ourselves. And I think of oneas being like a very cognitive
conscious process. Right. Sookay, I know rage is a great
example. Even before I know I'mfeeling rage, if I can really
(14:45):
slow things down, I know that mybody is already responding
before I have the cognitivethought of I'm really mad,
right? And so there's that levelof self awareness that feels
very like in the waking moment,right where I'm like, Okay, I'm
going to slow down. I'm going totrack how I'm feeling My body's
tensing up up, I'm feeling rage,okay, I can like name an
emotion, right? What we mightcall a kind of straightforward
(15:07):
sort of form of emotional selfawareness. But then there's this
whole other realm of thesubconscious that you're talking
about when you're talking aboutdreams. And I just want to have
you share with our listeners alittle bit about of what is your
relationship to dream work? Whatis your practice around? Dreams?
How do you use dreams, as a toolfor better understanding
(15:28):
yourself and where you're at atany given moment?
Akhila Kolesar (15:31):
There are so many traditions of of dream
work, you know, I think theaborigines of Australia have
probably developed dreampractice better than any of us
have. So mine's really comingfrom a Western lens here, United
States and lens and apsychological lens because I
can't tease that out for myself.
But for me, when I think aboutdream work, it's really about
intentionality. Like everysingle time I fall asleep, I
(15:54):
have an opportunity to have aconversation with my
unconscious. Thanks to SaraMcLean Bicknell, who's my
current dream teacher, andsomeone who's helped me bring
more intentionality into mypractice. Because of her I have
started using my before bed timeto bring in more questions where
(16:15):
I will actually sometimesincubate a question before,
before bed, do like a shortmeditation, kind of, you know,
centering myself around this ismy intention going in, it gives
me a lens, then in the morningwith which to look at the dream,
or dreams, like a show me moreabout this item, and then having
(16:36):
the dreams and then being reallycommitted. Also wake up at 2am.
Okay, gotta write it down, orrecord it in some way.
Elizabeth Solomon (16:45):
Can you give us an example of a question, or
an intention you might hold?
Going into the dream space?
Akhila Kolesar (16:52):
Yeah, recently, I incubated a question. That
was, that was something like,show me what I need to know
about my unique expression ofleadership in this lifetime?
That's a biggie. You know, Idon't know if that in this
lifetime was actually useful ornot. But that's, you know, Dream
(17:14):
questions, can you work inprogress too. And so I did my
little different things that Ithat I do before incubating.
Sometimes having a particularstone that I just really love, I
call it my dream stone, puttingthat beside my bed, and then
having the notebook ready. Andthat particular night, I
remember waking up to pee at3am. And going, Okay, I have I
(17:38):
have these dreams, you know, andso kind of finagling with the
light to be able to scribble as,as I can at 3am handwriting
getting everything down that Ican remember, and then starting
to fall asleep and rememberinganother piece and having to get
up to write that piece downagain. So that's the discipline
part of it really beingcommitted to writing down
everything you can remember. Andthe next morning having another
(17:58):
dream fragment that I added toit. And then as for analysis,
going back to what I mentioned,about there being so many
different approaches to dreamwork, you know, I have, I have
studied in practice, the moreanalytic approach to dreams.
Work with Jeremy Taylor, who Ijust love that really, practices
(18:20):
like viewing the dream on allparts of the dream as parts of
our very own selves. And I'velet all that get a little bit
looser, in my practice. Now, youknow, given the guide of the
teacher who I'm working with,and we tend to look at dreams in
a more, I guess, in a moreholistic or even more, she might
(18:41):
say, more like an indigenousperspective of really trying to
pay close attention toenvironment, plants and animals,
any medicine that might be inthe dream. And I'll put medicine
with like air quotes around it,things that might actually be
kind of antidotes for what wetend to suffer with, in our
conscious waking life. So, soyeah, I mean, from for example,
(19:04):
from the stream, I got to workit in a group, you know, which
also feels like such a giftevery time a group is available
to do that for me, because thereflections I get back from
other people when they were mydream, and look at it through
the lens of my questions isalways different than what I can
see myself, I find that for me,it's essential to have other
(19:25):
other people, other beings in myworld to really understand
myself. It just adds all thecolor it says if I my own self
analysis of my dreams, creates ablack and white image and having
other people wear my dream, putall the color in.
Elizabeth Solomon (19:40):
This brings me to something so important.
And I think, you know, there'smany ways we can talk about
this. So if we're thinking aboutbuilding self awareness of
ourselves as leaders in a verycorporate environment, right, we
might talk about a 360evaluation. Same thing, we step
into our community and we sayplease help me understand
myself. Right. And I hear yousaying In this with the dream
work to, it's not even thatyou're looking at these dreams
(20:03):
in isolation, you're invitingother people into the process
with you. And so I'm actuallywonder if you could speak a
little bit to that role ofcommunity or of other in helping
us build self awareness, knowingthat the very term self
awareness, I think reinforcesour kind of sense of
individuality, right, there's aninclination to think like, this
(20:24):
is me looking at myself, andthis is something that kind of
happens in isolation. And yet,we know that some of the most
effective ways of building selfawareness are not in isolation
at all.
Akhila Kolesar (20:36):
Absolutely, that's through my participation
in a role and community thatI've really learned about
myself. And I've been able toreceive those reflections and
the honor really, from otherpeople kind of honoring me up
for what I, how I have servedthe community and vice versa,
I've really been able to seemyself as an important part of a
(21:00):
beautiful hole. So it doesreinforce my value, like my
value of myself, my value ofthis life, my life, you know,
the kind of preciousness of thatlife, and also how it's like the
big Crayola box for somethingthat's really joyous about
having this, this beautifulinterconnectivity of all of
(21:21):
these different roles. Not thatit's not without its drama, too,
of course, at times, too, whichis another way when we're
supported in community that waythat we get to learn about
ourselves, you know, of havingrupturing and repair with
another person. I'm wondering
Elizabeth Solomon (21:35):
if you have an example of that of something
that you have learned aboutyourself through sort of showing
up in the context of group worksupporting another person,
Akhila Kolesar (21:47):
I think about a community that I'm a part of
now, where it's a learningenvironment, but we're also
practicing together as a way tolearn. And, you know, you join a
group, and pretty quickly, thisis true for me, I think, true
for many of us that prettyquickly, we go, Oh, I like you,
you and you, I do not like you,you know, and I, you really
annoy me, and it's like everyonegets within the first hour, we
(22:11):
decide who everyone is. And mostof the time, the story is more
complex than that. And when wehave sudden community, that's
usually where we all start. Andwhen we have opportunities to
really show up for another, thenwe get to have more of that full
experience, and really a morefull bodied experience. So in
this learning community that I'mtalking about, I kind of decided
(22:32):
I don't really like this person,for all sorts of reasons, you
know, they're, everything seemsto be about them. And they kind
of hug them like, and, you know,I've had kind of enough I want,
I want them to be morecontained, you know, and it's
through really sitting next tothem. Because that was the chair
that was available during aparticularly activating piece of
(22:54):
the work for them activating forthem, I think, emotional for all
of us, but especially activatingfor them that I realized, Oh,
they're really suffering here.
You know, I got to see more ofthe complex trauma that they
were coming with. And I've hadsuch incredible privilege, you
know, and such incredibleopportunity to do a lot of
healing, not like I'm done. ButI'm aware that not all of us
(23:18):
who've had access, and the waythat I have, and with me being
next to them once they softened,and I got to see more of what
what their suffering was about.
I was just incredibly moved tobe support. And so here, I
perhaps ironically, ended upbeing the one who was quite
literally even holding a peer ofmine, who was going through big
(23:41):
suffering, that I was able tosee in the moment. Oh, right.
This was not her fault. This issomething that she has carried.
You know, and the motivation tokind of show to show up was
just, I don't know, if I shouldeven call it motivation. It was
just instantaneous. There was anempathic resonance, and I was
the one there and it's like, oh,come here. Right. And I could
(24:03):
offer that support. Yeah. Whatdoes
Elizabeth Solomon (24:05):
that teach you about yourself?
Akhila Kolesar (24:06):
I mean, there's the there's the immediate part,
which is, hey, don't be so quickto judge which, of course, our
cognitive mind is gonna
Unknown (24:14):
do that. You're like, gosh, you judge II know,
whatever, you know, I'll judgemyself for being so judgy.
Akhila Kolesar (24:21):
Right, exactly.
The double judge that's there.
So there's some of that, ofcourse, and you know, I don't
know that we can ever slow downour judgments. I think it'll
probably still be thereautomatic, but maybe don't catch
it. Don't let it get rigid, notlet it decide who people are. So
there's, there's that piece ofit. But there's also something
that's really beautiful for mein being able to see.
(24:45):
Thankfully, too. It's kind ofreassuring to be able to see
that the judge can fall awaythat there is a deeply loving,
there's a part of me that willis so committed to just showing
up. And it's such a strong valueof mine. I'll talk But it was
people like we get lost in ourown despair. You know, it's not
effective for the future of thisworld, we need to really be able
(25:06):
and are willing to show up tomake any sort of change. And so
I'm so grateful that in thatmoment, you know, I wasn't held
back by that judgment, and thatI could, I guess, honor myself,
and certainly, I mean, sheexpressed tons of gratitude to
me later. And all of this aswell, you know, about being
really able to show up as theframe that we held after that is
(25:28):
kind of like big sister. And I'mthe youngest in my family. So I
have not had the opportunity tobe a big sister to many, and
maybe a few friends or siblingsor friends and things like that
along the way. And so this wasjust such an instantaneous poll
that I'm like, Okay, I couldeven as Big Sister, I can have
my judgment sometimes. Rightlike that. Also, there's room
(25:49):
for that. But when it comes downto it, I'm going to show up, and
I'm going to be there.
Elizabeth Solomon (25:54):
Yeah, I think you're also speaking a little
bit about becoming aware, too,of how our intentions affect
what part of ourselves we'reable to sort of live into,
right. And I think that exampleof stepping into a new group is
amazing, right? Because there'sa part of us that's like, Who
here is safe? Who here is not? Ilike I'm in a new environment,
everything's overwhelming. Ineed to categorize people
(26:14):
instantaneously. So I can likemake sense of my surroundings,
right? And yet, the questionthat you arrive at, in this
group experience with thisperson is how can I be of
support? This brings me toactually a question about one
thing I found really helpful inmy own self awareness practice
(26:34):
is a little bit of parts work,which goes by many different
names, but being able to observemyself and different aspects of
myself and being able to givethem names and, and think about,
you know, okay, I have thejudge, okay, I have the person
who has a lot of rage, oh, she'sangry. Okay, I have this really
other like, really joyful side,oh, I have the inner child,
(26:56):
right. However, we want to namethose parts and seeing them all
as being a piece of us. And I'mwondering if that has been
influential to your work at all,either for yourself or with
clients, and how that helps sortof relieve the shame layer that
often follows becoming aware ofourselves and our emotions and
our behaviors?
Akhila Kolesar (27:16):
Oh, yeah, absolutely. Deke Schwartz and
internal family systems hasreally been the foundation of
the parts work that that I'velearned yet, even like I
mentioned, Jeremy Taylor earlyand looking at dreams, through
each of the different elementsin the dream, including the
house, including the clouds, youknow, as being parts of our very
own selves. And what I loveabout ifs internal family
(27:39):
systems, is there's not just thefocus on parts, but also this
core focus on what we might callcapital S self. Right, I have
this kind of central what Ithink of as like the hub of the
wheel, all the parts is beinglike spokes. But when I have
orientation to that hub of thewheel, when I'm able to really
kind of come back to center,come back to my back body really
(28:01):
feel supported by the chair bythe world, you know that I'm
able to take one of those deepbelly breaths and turn towards
whatever the feeling is that'scoming up whatever part is, has
been activated, and respond toit so differently, you know,
because then I get to be able toask the question of myself, and
this is true with with myclients to try to support them
in parts, because I find itimmensely useful, and helping us
(28:23):
to build self compassion.
Because when we're able to kindof sit in our back bodies, and
really kind of find our centerand not be so blended with a
particular part that's up, thenwe get to ask, what are you
working so hard to do right now?
judgey part, you know, to yourpoint from earlier, it's about
safety. Well, if I can reallyunderstand when judgey part
(28:45):
steps up, that I'm feelingscared, that I'm feeling unsafe,
and I'm trying to identify, youknow, who are my allies in the
room, then there's so much moreroom there for compassion and
understanding of that judgy partand I'm not necessarily ruled by
it. Right, I get to lead myselfthrough this new environment or
(29:06):
this room of new people. And atthe same time, kind of like be
holding my judgy part, knowingthat it's a protector for one
that's actually really scared,which then may bring me into
relationship. Ideally,hopefully, with that little one
who's scared who's going, Oh, Iwas bullied as a kid. What are
people seeing in me? are theyjudging me right now? Probably
(29:28):
because I'm judging them. It'sone that's really terrified.
that I get to be with my littlelike, seven year old part while
also being my, my current self,and also be with this. This
bratty, perhaps adolescent partof me that's this judgy one that
has snarky, witty things to sayabout everyone and everything.
Yeah.
Unknown (29:52):
In Dan Harris's interview for our first act, he
shared a quote that said Selfknowledge is always As bad news,
Akhila Kolesar (30:01):
I think for me, my path around self awareness
has always there's beensomething kind of magical about
it. There's something that'sgotten me excited inside, even
those big questions, you know,like that first one of God
created everything, what, who orwhat created God, like there was
something really terrifying inthat, but there was something
that hooked me that was almostlike, seductive about that
(30:24):
question. However, you know,when I think about self
awareness of our, of my innerjudge, you know, or of the
impact I've had on other peopleat times when I've let my even
righteous rage, you know,control my actions, and I can
relate more to that question ofit being bad news. One story
that comes to me as I reflectupon this is how I remember I
(30:50):
think it was 11. I rememberlearning from a friend's mom,
that in some places people eatdog. And I grew up with dogs. My
first primary relationship waswith a Giant Schnauzer, named
Butch. Like, dogs are my peeps,you know, as a kid, especially.
(31:11):
And it's hugely attached toanimals, and really found great
social safety with them as ayoungster. And so I was
appalled. When I learned thisnow, you know, cultural
relativity and stuff. I'mputting that aside for for a
moment, because I was 11 at thetime and didn't really get those
pieces. But I thought, wait aminute, people eat dogs. Oh, no,
and then learn people eat horsesand I rode horses are like, Oh,
(31:34):
no, this is horrible. And thenI'm like, wait a minute, how is
this different than cows? How isthis different than pigs? You
know, like, I met cows and pigson farms, or, you know, petting
zoos, things like that. I'mthinking, Wait a minute, like,
my family that stuff all thetime. We mean, and so I couldn't
eat meat anymore. At 11, Idecided, okay, there's no
(31:55):
different I know that there's nodifference between a dog and a
pig. I can't eat meat. We couldargue about chickens or fish.
But you know, I stopped eatingall of them. Because I thought,
well, they all haveconsciousness, they all have
feelings, I understand thecomplex emotions that dogs can
feel or thought I did, you know,as a kid. And so I couldn't eat
meat anymore. And so thatawareness, you know, really felt
like bad news that I could thenself organize around identities
(32:18):
being vegetarian. Again, when Ilearned about factory farming
and all of that at 16, I becamevegan because I thought, Okay,
this is just all bad. Andwasn't, then until I left high
school to do kind of like a backto the land thing. All I wanted
to do was learn how to farm, Ithought I just want to have no
negative impact. So let me goout to California because I grew
(32:39):
up in Cleveland, not a placethat was super friendly to
vegans at the time. And so I waslike, let me go to California,
I'm gonna, I'm going to practicefarming, I'm going to learn how
to do sustainable living so thatI can opt out from this really
harmful lifestyle that I'veinherited, you know, as the
United States in, and of course,I get to the farms, and they're
(33:03):
killing animals is a way toprotect the vegetables. Oh, my
God, I couldn't get away fromit. I mean, poor gophers. I
don't know how many generationsof gophers were killed, you
know, and I'm being allrighteous, like, I'm not going
to set the gopher traps, whichthe farmer didn't carry, set it
anyways. You know, I rememberwhen ravens kept coming down to
eat the seed that was laid out.
And these are small scalefarmers. These are not like the
(33:25):
big rich agribusiness folks, youknow, they're all organic in
Northern California. And theRavens were coming out to eat
the seed. And so this one farmershot a raven hung him up by his
toes or something like that inthe field. And I gotta tell you,
like, the Raven stopped comingto eat the seeds. It was so sad,
and it was so sick. And therewas this way that I had to
really like, accept that therewas no way as a human being on
(33:48):
this planet. Maybe as a sentientbeing, I'm not sure there's no
way that I can truly opt outfrom having some degree of
impact, we might call it harm onmy environment. And with having
to accept that like that createsits own kind of process, I think
of self awareness of, of comingto accept some of these
(34:12):
existential givens of I'm goingto hurt things in people and of
course, I can be mindful of thedegree of harm and intentional
harm and things like that. Butthis has really led to me now
you know, I am no longer vegan.
I'm no longer vegetarian, butI'm incredibly committed to
eating local I have incredibleprivilege living in California
(34:33):
to be able to eat local to beable to shop at farmer's markets
that are year round. So I seeyou know, an immense amount of
privilege in that you're gettingto
Elizabeth Solomon (34:41):
a question that I was going to ask you
which is how the act of becomingaware of oneself one's emotions,
one's impact, etc. how thatchanges your relationship to the
world and what I'm hearing isthat you identified very early
on this value around no harm andhad to go through like multiday.
decades of reckoning with thatright? From like the
(35:03):
righteousness of I'm going to beone of those good people who
causes no harm to therealization that part of living
in a system or an ecosystem isthat everything we do has an
impact on some other part of thesystem. And we don't always know
what that is. And it's certainlynot always for good, right. But
again, as your self awarenesshas expanded, any other things
you can say about how yourrelationship to the world has
(35:23):
changed, and that could just bevery interpersonal, in terms of
your relationships that are veryclose, or much larger?
Akhila Kolesar (35:32):
That's a great question. This takes me in some
ways back to the question aroundidentity, and how, as my self
awareness has grown, or changedover time, and impacted by the
decades, like you said, there'sa way that I've kind of more and
more really seen myself as anEarthling. That might sound kind
(35:52):
of silly, but being outside andparticularly in wild spaces is a
huge resource for me. And it's aplace where self awareness feels
very easy. So backpacking issomething I try to do multiple
times a year, because there'ssomething about coming down to
the simplicity, and not beingimpacted by media having an
immediate break, literallycarrying just the very simple
(36:14):
things that I'm gonna have whileI'm out there, just having
voice, meaning, like, I don'treally carry radio with me. So
it's like our own song that wemight create, or conversation or
silence hearing. And it's notsilent, hearing the natural
world out there. I think moreand more, I've really seen how
incredibly connected I feel tothis earth, in the sky, but also
(36:37):
like this ecosystem, and moreand more, try to even see myself
as an animal as opposed to ahuman. To kind of just
decentralize, to decentralizethe idea of self, maybe, you
know, with my clients, I'm kindof in there, and I'm very much a
human being with them, you know,and my own self awareness allows
(37:00):
me to own my mistakes, you know,or try to, like, when I noticed
that they happen or when it'sreflected to me by others, you
know, that it's happened. Andit's when I'm more self aware
and willing to see again, thisis in the context of harm, I
guess how I harmed another howit impacted another, especially
(37:23):
if it's unintentional harm, thenthe pathway to repair becomes
evident, if it's possible, andso I can be in more intimate
relationships the more selfaware I am
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Therapy Gecko
An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.