June 21, 2022 • 55 mins
How many of us believe conflict should be avoided at all costs? Our guest, George Kohlreiser, shares how openly facing conflict helps us progress through our most difficult challenges.
George Kohlrieser is an organizational and clinical psychologist, hostage negotiator, and international best-selling author. He is Distinguished Professor of Leadership and Organizational Behaviour at IMD Business School in Lausanne, Switzerland, and a consultant to a plethora of Fortune 500 companies around the world. Moreover, Prof. Kohlrieser is a regular speaker at international management and professional conferences around including the World Business Forum, the World Economic Forum, and the United Nations.
Daniel Goleman talks about his Emotional Intelligence Courses, available at danielgolemanemotionalintelligence.com
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Episode Transcript
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Kerry Seed (00:13):
Thanks for tuning in. This week, we're wrapping up
our series on conflictmanagement with our guests
George coal reserves. He hasquite a resume. He's a
psychologist, a hostagenegotiator and an international
best selling author. He's also adistinguished professor of
leadership and organizationalbehavior at IMD business school
in Switzerland, and a consultantto companies around the world.
(00:36):
On top of all that, he's anincredible storyteller. I really
think you'll enjoy this one. Webegin each show with the voice
of a young person to remind usof how we all started out. And
this week, our friends, Rene andVera talk about conflict and how
it feels. Tell me about a timeyou were mad.
Unknown (01:03):
When Reagan were fighting, like what made you
mad? I don't know. It's likekinda, he's being a little bit
annoying. Okay, and what doesanger feel like? It's feels kind
of I feel bad all the time. AndI just get angry. And it feels
(01:26):
bad to agree. Who do you go towhen you feel upset? God, and
you would get?
Elizabeth Solomon (01:35):
And how does?
How did those people help you?
Unknown (01:39):
They helped me good.
They're nice. And I liked it.
God watches over me. And I don'tknow why we're keep be dragging
on Friday, get the center God.
And I don't like Sunita God, ordisobey.
Kerry Seed (02:01):
Thank you, Renee and Vera. And now on with the show.
Hanuman Goleman (02:13):
Welcome to first person plural, the
motional intelligence andbeyond. I'm hanuman Goleman.
Elizabeth Solomon (02:19):
I'm Elizabeth Solomon.
Daniel Goleman (02:20):
And I'm Daniel Goleman.
Elizabeth Solomon (02:22):
We've been talking about conflict
management as we see it insystems and in our own lives.
Hanuman Goleman (02:27):
And today, we're going to delve into the
Theory of Conflict Managementwith our guest, George Cole
Rieser. George was a hostagenegotiator with the Dayton
Police Department. Before westart, I want you to know that
some of his stories includegraphic depictions of people in
crisis, this content might bedisturbing for some of you. So I
(02:48):
encourage you to prepareyourself emotionally beforehand.
Or if you think it might be toomuch, skip this one. And join us
next time.
Elizabeth Solomon (02:55):
As you're probably gathering. George has a
lot of wild stories. But I wasreally charmed by this one.
George Kohlrieser (03:04):
I traveled to Italy in the early 80s doing
workshops, and I went down tothe fish market early in the
morning. And here were all theirfishermen coming in with their
catch. And they were cleaningthose fish and it was a bloody
smelly mess. But they werelaughing. They enjoyed it. They
also had a good glass of wine,aprons with your name what was
(03:27):
around and I was just watchingthis. And they were looking at
me. And I thought this wasinteresting. So I went down the
next day. And lo and behold,they invited me to come in there
I was with a glass of wine, aknife cleaning these fish, just
loving it. And it was a bloody,smelly mess. Now I grew up on a
farm so I knew what it is toclean a fish. But I never
(03:48):
particularly enjoyed it tillthat point. And I thought, This
is what conflict management isput the fish on the table, go
through the bloody, smelly messof cleaning it for the grade
fish dinner at the end of theday. And how many teams how many
leaders keep fish under thetable the conflicts and it
becomes toxic.
Elizabeth Solomon (04:09):
I think that simple story really gets at the
heart of conflict management.
Hanuman Goleman (04:13):
And you really go into the Theory of Conflict
Management in this interview,what are some key points we
should listen for?
Daniel Goleman (04:21):
I think George is a master of conflict
management. And one of thethings that he's especially good
at is making that connection tothe other person which is over
and above the particularconflict. But that's the
platform that lets him start torepair things.
Elizabeth Solomon (04:41):
I think curiosity is at perhaps like the
greatest source of conflictprevention or antidote to
conflict, the greatest strategyand such a you know, we can
cultivate curiosity about kindof the other side or the other
person we can do that from thepoint that's early on. We can
also keep conflict fromescalating
Daniel Goleman (04:59):
or think empathy is really key here. George, as I
said, as a master of findingthat connection, he is a
beautiful empathizer. And ofcourse, there are three kinds of
empathy. There's cognitiveempathy, I know how you think
about it. There's emotionalempathy. I know how you're
feeling. But there's a thirdtime, which was really important
(05:20):
here, which is I care about you,I'm concerned about you. And
it's that kind of empathy thatcreates with George calls,
actually, from Bowlby via Dr.
Bennett, Goldman's book,emotional alchemy and mindless
spring, which George creditsactually talks about a secure
base sense of being able torelax with the person that I
(05:43):
feel safe here. And howimportant that is. And George
and his work with leaders, forexample, really encourages
something explicitly credit starfor which is the inner secure
base, not only being with peoplewho make you feel that way, but
being able to create it insideyourself. And this secure base
(06:04):
is a deeper kind of platform forconnecting.
Elizabeth Solomon (06:13):
I love this piece around empathic concern,
because it really ties back intothis piece around shared values,
right. And I think when we'recoming at someone with a sense
of empathic concern, and saying,like, I really want you to sort
of have what you want and need,and I also want myself to have
what I want and need in this.
And I care for both of us inthis situation. And so how do we
find those kinds of those thingsthat are mutually beneficial
(06:35):
within the conflict or withinthe conversation?
Daniel Goleman (06:41):
us when you say curiosity, I'm hearing empathy,
really caring to understand theother person?
Elizabeth Solomon (06:47):
Yeah. And also curious, you know, I think
some of conflict is us, perhapssubconsciously narrowly thinking
there's only one way forward,right? We're like, this is the
way this is the thing. And Ithink curiosity is both about
wanting to understand anotherperson, but also about saying,
what other ways forward couldthere be? And what do I need to
do to sort of unravel myselffrom this idea that the only way
(07:08):
to meet my needs or your needsis through this kind of one
singular path or one onedirection and widening the
sphere to think about adifferent range of
possibilities.
Daniel Goleman (07:20):
So you're saying Be flexible, be adaptable, be
creative, and finding a range ofpossibilities that will be
acceptable enough to both? TheWin Win idea really has to do
with finding a solution, whichis satisfactory enough for each
side, not what you wanted in thefirst place, but I can live with
(07:42):
this.
Hanuman Goleman (07:43):
So with that in mind, let's listen to George
coal research and his ideasabout the Theory of Conflict
Management.
Daniel Goleman (07:51):
I want to welcome to first person plural,
my good dear friend, George ColeReser. He's a psychologist,
professor at IMD in Lausanne,Switzerland. He's been a police
psychologist, we'll hear aboutthat he started out as a hostage
negotiator. And from that hedeveloped the principles of the
(08:12):
program he directs, which is onhigh performance leadership.
It's now standing program forsenior leaders. And George,
welcome to the podcast.
George Kohlrieser (08:21):
Thank you, Dan. It's a pleasure to be here
with you again.
Daniel Goleman (08:24):
And let's just start where you started out,
which is when you were aclinical psychologist, somehow
you got a job working withpolice to negotiate hostage
situations, can you tell usabout it. I was
George Kohlrieser (08:39):
trained as a mediator. That was my goal in
becoming a clinicalpsychologist. So the focus was
on how to handle disputes. And Ihad an opportunity to work for a
local police department inDayton, Ohio, and to enter into
a domestic violence program thatthe government was offering
because 35% of homicides wereoccurring in families. And the
(09:03):
police had almost always beenthere before. So if we could get
mediators in to talk to people,we can reduce that homicide
rate. Well, in getting to knowthe police riding with them, and
they were very paranoid aboutpsychologists, they didn't like
us very much in the beginning. Iwas part of writing with the
lieutenant. And we got a callthat there was a hostage taking
(09:25):
at a local hospital.
Daniel Goleman (09:26):
What did you walk into what was the
situation?
George Kohlrieser (09:28):
This was a psychotic man, basically, who
had been stabbed by his ex wifeafter he kicked the door.
indicies kids against a courtorder. He was holding a nurse
hostage. He was screaming, Idon't want to live I have
nothing to live for. I'm goingto kill everybody I can. So I
arrived with them. And the unithad been secured. I was standing
(09:49):
behind a lieutenant who had nowbecome the incident commander,
watching this with open eyes.
And as he looked around todecide who he was going to ask
to go into that room. Boom,because we couldn't use tear
gas, we couldn't kick the door.
And he turned around and lookedright at my eyes and says,
George, how would you like to dothat? Whoa, talk about social
(10:10):
pressure. All the policeofficers, they were looking out,
okay, does he have it or not?
Being a risk taker, I had tomake that decision. If I don't
go in, I don't think I couldhave continued to work because I
lost all credibility. And at thesame time, I felt curious. And I
had the sense that thisLieutenant which he became a
(10:31):
secure base to me, trusted me.
So I got in and Sam was acrossthe room and everything I was
saying, was not working. He wasjust screaming and shouting, and
then he cuts you to stroke. Nother juggler. But on the side,
screaming she fell to theground. My kids, my kids, my
(10:54):
kids, that was the last thingthat was on her mind. He stepped
back sort of startled, I firsthad to manage her to get a
bandaid on this cut this wound.
And then he came around thetable towards me now, in a
nanosecond, I had to decide do Icall the police end to
restraining? Do I throw my bodyat his feet? Or do I talk in
(11:14):
dialogue with him? And theanswer was to talk and bond with
him. He approaches me puts thescissors to my throat, never
cuts my skin. But he'sscreaming, I'm gonna kill you
everybody. I can again, nothingwas working. And after about two
minutes, I asked him a question,Sam, how do you want your
(11:37):
children to remember you? Hepaused. Then he screamed out,
I'll kill my children to I'mgoing to kill you. I have
nothing to live for, et cetera,et cetera. He really went off
the deep end even further. Buthe didn't push the scissors
anymore. In fact, that was agood answer. Although it sounded
not so good. Now we've startedthe dialogue. So I come back,
(12:00):
Sam, we have to talk about yourkids, how do you want them to
remember you? And that was thestart of the whole negotiation.
He said, Well, I'll just killmyself. And then we're gonna
have to think about it. And thetransactions were what you want
your kids to remember you as amurderer? Do you want them to
remember you as a father whocommit suicide, and he started
(12:21):
to de escalate. And within 10minutes, Sheila got out within
20 minutes, because he had beenstabbed near his heart, we had
to get him to another part ofthe hospital. He was willing to
walk out with an agreement thatfirst giving up the scissors and
asking a question. And this iswhat hostage negotiators do.
(12:43):
This is part of what message Ireally learned. You ask
questions. It's not command andcontrol leadership, saying what
do you want to do with thatscissors? You want to give it to
me or throw it on the floor? Hegave it to me, then do you want
to be handcuffed in the front orin the back? And you want the
police to come in three goodquestions. Which Dan, I'm sure
(13:03):
you know, is that each time yougive a question, and they
respond, it empowers them, evenif it's a no and empowers them.
So that fortunately was thestory. And he came out. And I
did have the agreement in thenegotiation, that I would go to
(13:24):
the judge and plead his case,because he could probably go to
prison, I would come to theprison and help in re uniting
with his kids. And thirdly, Iwould follow up and go with to
the kids and say he gave upbecause he loved you. He loved
his kids. That was the key. Buthe was in grief.
Daniel Goleman (13:47):
So powerful Jordan, I'd like to unpack that.
And I can't imagine anythingmore tense to bring a
disagreement into the open,which you did, to find a
solution or define a solutionthat everyone could endorse,
which he did, which isastounding to me. And to
understand his perspective tonot just to see dismiss him as
(14:09):
some psychotic guy, but he had apoint of view, and to
acknowledge the views and findan agreeable resolution. It's
astounding. Those are the keysteps of a classic conflict
management.
George Kohlrieser (14:22):
It was one of four times I've been hostage. It
was not the most dangerous. Ifaced someone with a gun who
actually shot the gun. But Samdid not want to kill me. He
could have put that scissors inmy heart. He could have killed
me, but he wanted something. AndI knew that. That is how you
have to be able to manage yourmind's eye to see the person is
(14:44):
not the problem, that there'sanother problem to be solved. I
was dealing with Sam, the man,the man hurting to separate the
person from the problem. Andafterwards when I came out. I
was so full of an Amiga. Ahijack which you described. So
Well Dan, I screamed, how dareyou send me into that room, I
(15:07):
need to talk to you before wedebrief this, I really left him
to have it, he just put his handon my shoulder and said, George,
I knew you could do it, he tookmost of the wind out of what I
was saying, I kept coming back,but I didn't sign up for this,
this is suicidal. And he said hewas clever. But I gave you a
choice. I asked you if you want,it was done so well as a secure
(15:30):
base. And it changed thetrajectory of my career. And
that became a red thread in theremaining part of my conflict
management work. And myleadership work here at IMD and
around the world, of being ableto deal with disputes using this
whole idea of what hostagenegotiators do to get their high
(15:51):
rate of success.
Daniel Goleman (15:53):
And from that, you took home a lot of learning,
George Kohlrieser (15:57):
I learned that I could face an extreme
situation and manage it. I hadlearned from sports figures,
that you do what you know, andyou know what to do. And I
remember telling myself as Iwhat am I going to do, telling
myself, I know what to do, and Ido what I know. And so I learned
(16:18):
how not to be controlled byfear. Because I did feel fear.
There was a point where I had anamygdala hijack, I thought I was
going to be killed. But then Ihad to come back to be my own
internal secure base, to be ableto be an external secure base.
And it was the person effectthat really got to Sam, I think
(16:40):
it was my caring attitude, andmy willingness to take a risk
that communicated to him that Ireally did care which I did.
Here's a man who was grievinghis children. That's why he went
to the house. totallyunbelievable childhood abuse and
going from foster home to fosterhome and sexual abuse. And when
(17:03):
he went to prison, I did becomea kind of father to him to teach
him. This is not what a mandoes. A man does not beat up
their wife, a man does not go inand kick the door. And, and he
became willing to listen to meand adapt his behavior. But it
changed the whole trajectory ofmy career, because it was
clearly a leadership activity.
And words became the foundationof being able to deal with that.
Daniel Goleman (17:29):
But, George, you've gone on from there, and
I'd like to hear your journey,how this informed the way you
saw leadership, and otherconflict situations that you
have advised on since then,please tell us.
George Kohlrieser (17:45):
Here's the point, Dan, for leadership and
emotional intelligence, you haveto deal with the emotions. And
you know this from all the greatwork you're doing with emotional
intelligence, you have to beable to de escalate emotions,
and many leaders get triggered.
And what I did, and hostagenegotiation is a fundamental
leadership activity. You can'tuse command and control, you
(18:09):
cannot tell the hostage takercome out, or we're going to send
the SWAT team in, you'll get thehostages killed, you have to
work with them, de escalatethem, find the motivation. And
well, here's what's interesting,it will work in 95% of the
cases, as measured by the FBIand Interpol here in Europe.
Isn't that amazing?
Daniel Goleman (18:31):
So one of the things you emphasize I'd love to
hear about is how important itis to form a bond of trust in
the beginning. Yeah,
George Kohlrieser (18:40):
trust is a fundamental commodity of
leadership. And you don't haveto like someone to bond to them.
That's the big learning, youonly need a common goal. So if a
leader can establish a commongoal, they can bond to an enemy
to an adversary. And they turnthat adversary or that enemy
(19:02):
into An Ally through thatbonding process. But it's goal
driven. But the big thing is theleader has to manage their own
fight flight reflex, their ownreactive tendency to escalate
emotions, what you call the selfawareness, they have to be aware
of the emotional escalationinside and be able to manage
(19:24):
that.
Daniel Goleman (19:24):
You've called that being hostage to our own
emotions. hostage at the tableis your seminal book about this.
What does that really mean? Yousaw it out in the open, I guess
in hostage negotiation, but thenyou recognize something similar
was going on with executives.
George Kohlrieser (19:43):
Very good point. Thank you, Dan. There's a
thing to be a physical hostage,but you can also be a
psychological hostage, and thatis to a boss, to a colleague to
an employee to a situation to asupplier and personal life to
spouses. children, teachers, therange of what is possible to be
(20:04):
a hostage to psychologicallywithout a weapon is so
prevalent, even this pandemic,many people felt like they were
a hostage to the pandemic. Itmeans powerlessness, it means
you feel powerless, you can evenbe a hostage to yourself. That
means that you are filled withanger or revenge or shame, the
(20:27):
1000s of internal states thathold you from being able to feel
the full joy of life, see thebeauty of life, see the the
opportunities, and behind thatblindness is always going to be
loss or grief that holds youback. So this is coming out in
(20:49):
many ways by the emotions andthe emotional states. And part
of that a building trust is tobe a secure base. And secure
base basically means someone ora goal or something that calms
the brain. So that you see, notthreat, but you see opportunity.
Daniel Goleman (21:11):
So what you're saying is that a leader becomes
a safe container. For thefeelings that need to be
expressed. One thing you've toldme over the years that I was
always intrigued by was thatoften people in your leadership
training programs end up intears. Why Islam?
George Kohlrieser (21:29):
Right? We have a special way of
approaching this this programhas been going on since 2000 135
versions of it plus more incompanies and so forth. And it
has only one case, we don't usethe case method of presenting
leaders and then imitate them.
The case is you and digging intowho you are the foundations and
(21:52):
following the person we bothloved so much, Warren Bennis,
who talked about the cruciblesas building the character of a
leader, how do we go back in thefoundation and look for those
crucibles, the pain points, andthen deal with them. So we see
so many leaders come in filledwith pain that they're blind to,
(22:13):
they don't realize it's a hiddengrief. And so we create the safe
haven, the safe container,generally within a group of 55.
And then within small groups offive or six, to open up whatever
that trauma may have been, orthat crucible, and they grieve
over something that may havehappened years ago, and free
(22:35):
themselves from being a hostageto that. So for many they've
never cried. They neverexpressed with words what that
pain is inside. And then it's sosad. We had three major suicides
here in the last years in, inSwitzerland, the CEO of
(22:56):
Swisscom, who took a rope andkilled himself after going
through a terrible he was anentrepreneur, a vibrant love
leader, but he got a new bosswho held him like a lion in a
cage. And he was going through apersonal situation of loss with
his spouse. And rather thanreveal or express that grief,
(23:17):
and build up and he would dophysical activities, mountain
biking, and he just took a ropeand killed himself. Similar with
the CFO of Zurich Financial,although his family was very
much intact. And then the CEO ofZurich Financial, who felt
guilty for over 18 months, hedidn't protect his CFO took a
(23:38):
rope and killed himself threeexamples of top leaders who had
hidden grief, and they couldn'texpress it. This is why we have
to be able to help leadersunravel the crucibles in their
life.
Daniel Goleman (23:55):
So that's a kind of conflict management within
Yeah, it's an internal conflict.
But let me start back. I'd liketo pick up on the thread of your
work in conflict management. Iknow you've been doing as a
consultant, for example, youmentioned the other day, some
work you've done in Mongolia ofall places. But could you tell
us about a couple of instanceswhere you actually used some of
(24:17):
the principles of conflictmanagement to help a company or
an executive?
George Kohlrieser (24:24):
Yeah, thank you. By the way, that was over
zoom. I did not actually dealwith the pandemic. But here was
the mining company who was inbig trouble. They were about to
be thrown out of the country.
They had been thrown out of someother countries, and they kept
selling the benefits. Werebringing 10,000 jobs. We're
bringing all this but thepoliticians, the stakeholders
were having pain points. Theywere upset and they kept
(24:49):
demanding concessions, and thecompany made so many concessions
they couldn't make any more. Sowhat they couldn't do, Dan was
what we call put the fish on thetable, sit down and talk with
the politicians, the investors,the stakeholders, the community,
and hear them scream and yell atthem, I mean, really be angry,
(25:10):
and to listen to the pain pointsand keep the bond. And it was
amazing. After three months ofthis, the whole situation
started deescalate. And therewill be triggers that would
bring it up, but they wouldn'trun away from the conflict. And
so they engage them. And aftersix months, they reached one of
(25:31):
the most magnificent deals forthem. That was mutually benefit.
We call it mutual gain.
Daniel Goleman (25:38):
Sounds like a kind of classic situation in the
business world where peoplewithin the company convinced
themselves that they're doinggood in some way. And they try
to sell that good, withoutempathizing, without them to the
people who are going to beimpacted. To hear well, what are
they worried about? Is thatright? Yeah,
George Kohlrieser (25:59):
that's the starting point, pain points, not
selling the benefits. But whatis the pain point that motivates
that decision? And that'sbehavioral economics in action,
already in 1992. With thebehavioral economics model, they
identified people are basicallyirrational decisions are made in
which you know, throughemotional intelligence, by
(26:22):
emotions that drive thosedecisions, but the biggest drive
is the loss, not the benefit. Wedo more things in decision
making based on past loss, doyou future loss, anticipated
loss or present loss thatinfluences the decision, even if
you are the most rational personin the world, and this is what
we have many leaders who areengineers and financial people,
(26:45):
you know, for them, bonding issomething you buy and sell. But
they have to learn what empathyis and how to bond to people.
Daniel Goleman (26:53):
Exactly. I want to circle back, George, you used
a phrase that may be puzzling topeople that put the fish on the
table, which comes from yourexperience in Sicily.
George Kohlrieser (27:02):
Yeah. You know, I traveled to Italy, in
the early 80s, doing workshops,and I went down to the fish
market early in the morning. Andhere were all their fishermen
coming in with their catch. Andthey were cleaning those fish,
and it was a bloody smelly mess.
But they were laughing. Theyenjoyed it. They also had a good
glass of wine, aprons with yourname, what was around and I was
(27:26):
just watching this, and theywere looking at me. And I
thought this was interesting. SoI went down the next day. And lo
and behold, they invited me tocome in there I was with a glass
of wine, a knife cleaning thesefish, just loving it. And it was
a bloody, smelly mess. Now Igrew up on a farm so I knew what
it is to clean a fish. But Inever particularly enjoyed it
(27:47):
till that point. And I thought,This is what conflict management
is. Put the fish on the table,go through the bloody, smelly
mess of cleaning it for thegreat fish dinner at the end of
the day. And how many teams howmany leaders keep fish under the
table but complex and it becomestoxic? Can you give us an
(28:07):
example of that? So for example,someone who feels disrespected,
or someone who feelsembarrassed, doesn't get a
project, or in a merger andacquisition, how to be able to
sit down and talk to them. Howdo you feel disrespected. And to
hear the fish under the table ofhow they feel there was a bias
(28:31):
implicit or explicit, or thereis someone who is too
aggressive. And they're tooaggressive on team members. They
don't come to meetings on time.
So you have to sit down and youhave to not sugarcoat it, not
sugarcoat it, be able to putthat fish on the table. The
reality is you're too aggressivewith team members, with clients
(28:56):
that needs to be changed. Areyou aware of that? No, I'm not
aware of it. I've been born thatway. That's who I am. I love
those people, because you engagethem, you help them understand
there's another way to get tosuccess. And they can change
their behavior if you put thatfish on the table. But what we
learned from hostagenegotiation, it's always by
(29:18):
choice. You can't force someoneto change. You have to be able
to hear the pain points, andthen invite by choice. And this
is why we know command andcontrol leadership. And you have
it in your article leadershipthat gets results. That whole
call received the whole paysetting. It doesn't really
motivate people because it's toomuch command and control. It
(29:39):
takes away bonding and takesaway choice.
Daniel Goleman (29:42):
One of the things that I heard recently
from a friend of mine whoassesses top level executives, a
global company, she said every Csuite executive I've met has the
achievement drive very stronglythat competence, but the ones
that people like to work for anddon't hate working for also have
(30:03):
empathy.
George Kohlrieser (30:04):
It's so clear, it's so clear, people
need to feel cared about. Andthe research is over and over by
Gallup and others, thatengagement is connected to
feeling cared about, Gallupactually uses that word. And
they connected to empathy. Yourboss has to care about you. But
(30:25):
here's the secret, how to be100%, caring, and 100% daring.
That's a secure base leadership,we found this in, in our
research with over 1000executives, that they were able
to be both caring, 100% anddaring. 100%.
Daniel Goleman (30:42):
What do you mean by daring, caring is clear, but
daring. But daring means
George Kohlrieser (30:46):
that you take them out of their comfort zone,
you give them challengingprojects, you ask them to do
different things, you give theman opportunity to learn new
skills, new, new things thatthey wouldn't ordinarily do. So
they are daring themselves totry something different. And
when people feel challenged,they're going to be more
(31:06):
motivated not to challenge. Butbeing able to have within a
certain range of competencies,the ability to learn that any
talent that you develop, meansyou have to be able to dare
yourself, whether it's a newlanguage of sport, or whatever
it might be.
Daniel Goleman (31:24):
So is this related to innovation, for
example? Absolutely.
George Kohlrieser (31:28):
Because innovation is going to be risk
taking daring is risk taking.
One of the big failures ofleaders is as they move up, they
often become too risk avoided,they lose the appetite for risk
taking, and we need risk taking.
And we have leaders who are toonice, we're sort of following a
(31:49):
research path here that nice isnot the way to lead. Kindness is
kindness and respect is thefoundation. But you know, being
nice is a kind of lie. You don'tuse sugarcoat it, and you don't
really say the truth, as opposedto being kind.
Daniel Goleman (32:06):
So kindness, the way you're using it. And I agree
with you, by the way, soundslike you wouldn't hesitate to
raise a conflict that you detectgoing on. So walk us through the
steps that someone might take ina team or in a leadership
position. When you sense thereis a simmering conflict. And
(32:27):
then what,
George Kohlrieser (32:28):
okay, so if you're going to do it on a team
basis, and Google found thiswith psychological safety, the
need to be able to share thetalking amount of time, do it
with emotional intelligence andrespect. So you would put
whatever the issue is theproblem. For example, we just
(32:49):
had a case where someone wanteda project, and they didn't get
that project, you didn't have achance to tell them a before
they they went home one evening,and they found out at the coffee
machine the next morning. Thereason was they didn't hold
people accountable enough. Sothis was done by latterly, the
person comes in very angry, Ididn't get this project, I found
(33:11):
out the coffee machine, I wantto resign, you're terrible boss,
I trusted you. And now I don'ttrust you. So the boss has to be
able to manage that and startthe dialogue over what is this
person upset about both thecoffee machine and not getting
the project? So where do youwant to start giving choice?
(33:33):
Well, I want to know why to getthe project, good. Reward the
concession, let the coffeemachine stand over to the side.
First of all, expressing empathythat you would be upset to arise
a boss would be upset if I foundout at the coffee machine. But
then you say truthfully, theissue is you don't hold people
accountable. You're makingprogress. But you have to be
(33:54):
able in this project to reallyhold people accountable. Then
you ask the question, do youagree with that? Or do you
disagree? And then you go fromthere. And whatever the behavior
is, you want to be able toexpress it. So the leader, and
Warren Bennis always said this,and I'm sure you probably heard
him, the leader has a right todefine reality just a little
(34:19):
more than everybody else. Butyou want to reality that the
group can agree to a consensus.
Because if you argue about whatthe problem is, it's never going
to get solved. But you have tomake sure you've listened to
every perception that was hispoint. Listen to every
procession, in the military hasthis actually developed the most
I mean, the military, in manyways does encourage emotional
(34:41):
intelligence now does encouragepsychological safety. And if
you're on a Navy SEAL team orthat SEAL team, they have to
come to quick consensus. Andthey're able to do that by a
leadership style that allowspeople to say What they think
but then we come together andagree, if there is a issue
(35:02):
that's blocking that, you haveto honestly put it on the table
and not sugarcoat it.
Daniel Goleman (35:10):
So this is interesting because it speaks to
something people have to do allthe time, with their parents,
with kids or leaders with theirdirect reports. And that is give
performance feedback. And it'sinteresting to me that you say
don't sugarcoat it. On the otherhand, you want to keep the
connection, you want to keep thebond. So how do you manage that?
George Kohlrieser (35:33):
Well, if they want to be a high performer, and
they want to be able to developtheir talents, you always have
to go through pain. I don't careif it's learning a language, a
musical instrument, becoming adoctor in hospital, becoming a
police officer, whatever you'relearning as a talent, you have
(35:54):
to be able to go through andpractice doing it and you're
going to fail, and you getbetter each time. And the best
way to do that is to getfeedback you need, according to
the research, practicing the10,000 hours, practicing
correctly, and having a teacheror a secure base, who gives you
(36:15):
honest feedback. Musicalinstruments, for example,
learning a musical instrument asa child, if you have a secure
base teacher, you're probablygoing to stick with that musical
instrument. Most kids stopbecause they don't have a
teacher who's there making thepain of practicing beneficial,
seeing the benefit. So highperformers, ambition is
(36:38):
connected to being able to teachyour brain how to go through
pain for a better result, notjust the immediate gratification
of no pain, the brain hatespain, very clear, the brain
hates pain. But you rewire yourbrain to go through the pain to
get to a better outcome. Buthigh performers want pain, high
(37:01):
performers want to know thetruth. How can I improve? How
can I be better. And that bringsin that whole style of coaching
that you talk about in yourarticle on leadership that gets
results, the leader who takeshis moment to help someone
understand how to be better howto bring out the best in them.
(37:21):
But that takes a caringattitude.
Daniel Goleman (37:24):
So you don't just say what the person is
doing wrong. But you also helpthem see what they can do. That
could be right. Oh, yeah,
George Kohlrieser (37:32):
it's to benefit them. And I know you're
working a lot now with meaningand purpose, which is so
powerful. I mean, it is soimportant to know the person
what motivates them? Whatmeaning or purpose? What is
their goal? Do they want careeradvancement? Do they want a
salary increase and externalmotivation? Or are they looking
(37:54):
for something internal, reallymeaning and purpose, and you tie
it together? Whatever the changeof behavior is demanded to help
them get to that, assuming theywant success? What kind of
success do they want, I can helpyou be more successful. If you
will speak up in a meeting, ifyou will, even if you're an
(38:15):
introvert, still be able toexpress take your place for
women to be able to deal withconflict in a stronger way,
stand up and take their space.
If someone is treating otherswith disrespect, that's a
problem. You're talking topeople with aggression with too
much aggression. You're you'retalking with people
disrespectfully. And so it's putin the positive context of how
(38:38):
it fits into their meaning andpurpose.
Daniel Goleman (38:43):
So in other words, you deliver the painful
information, but you do it byframing it in terms of this is
going to help
George Kohlrieser (38:51):
you. Perfect, that's a that's a perfect
paraphrase. You probably knowhow many leaders don't know how
to paraphrase. They complainabout not being able to listen,
but they can't paraphrase whatthey just heard. Or they say I'm
good at listening. But theycan't paraphrase and say what
was said to them.
Daniel Goleman (39:09):
And the idea of paraphrasing is that you're
repeating back to the person,what you want to stand them to
have said, and so what you'resaying is that one of the first
steps or key steps to managingthese conflicts, is to listen
and to let the other personunderstand what you think they
said, and then what
George Kohlrieser (39:28):
and then you accept it. Accept it. You don't
have to agree. This is a bigmindset change. People who feel
rejected because they disagreewith what said. So I can listen
to any kind of garbage. I canlisten to perceptions that are
filled with conspiracy theories.
I don't have to agree. But if Iwant to build upon I have to
(39:50):
understand where it's comingfrom. And then at some point,
express the disagreement withrespect and then you do it In a
mutual way, and we live in aworld band that's increasingly
divisive. Look at theconfrontations mass on
airplanes, people who refuse tobe vaccinated are on one side or
(40:13):
another political right andleft. I mean, Never have we have
I seen in my lifetime, suchaggressive behavior, even at the
Oscars, the whole story of WillSmith.
Daniel Goleman (40:29):
So George, you're the expert on conflict
management, what do you advisein these us in them conflicts?
George Kohlrieser (40:37):
Well, first of all, Cooperation means I want
to build a bond, don't create anenemy. And when you have an
enemy or an adversary, build alink, train yourself to do it,
you almost need training to dothis. I mean, unless you had a
grandmother or grandfather,parents, when you grew up, who
(40:59):
was good at this, I wasfortunate I grew up on a farm in
Ohio. So my father was a greatnegotiator, he could talk to the
Amish over in Indiana and, andbuy chickens, he ran a poultry
farm. And so I saw this over andover again, how he could talk to
people who would get very upsetand very aggressive. So I
(41:20):
already had a little bit of afoundation before I turned to
this professionally. So what hasto happen is you have to have
the mindset. I want to get alongwith everybody. Oh, boy that
provokes a reaction. No, I don'twant to get along with
everybody. Well, who don't youwant to get along with? And we
(41:41):
see the tribal isation in thebrain? This is my tribe. This is
that tribe? So will you getalong with everybody? No, no,
let's be realistic. But you haveto make it very difficult for
them. And if you show interestor curiosity, they will
generally create a bond withyou. And I had a very powerful
(42:03):
learning experience in mytraining. As a psychologist of
going to Marion federalpenitentiary for a therapeutic
community with lifers. They werehaving a therapeutic community.
And we lived with them for fivedays. Well, that's a whole story
in itself. But I was assigned aparticular prisoner who had
eaten another person's heart. Hewas a cannibal. And my
(42:27):
professor, Dr. rancor, Ella,wonderful Italian, he thought it
was good for me to and I said, Ican't do this. I cannot talk to
the cannibal. I just won't doit. He very commonly talked to
me when to know why he was goodat conflict management. And he
said, What if you could learnsomething? What if you could use
(42:47):
this personally andprofessionally? So I agreed. And
when I walked in and first metthis guy, he was across the
room. And I was just sort ofparalyzed? He had the first
transaction. Do you know what hesaid to me? Are you afraid I'm
going to eat your heart? To thepoint. I sort of didn't know
(43:10):
what to say. But I said, Well,are you? And he said no, no, no.
And we became personal friends.
Through that process. I learneda lot from him. And he was
someone who was deeply lonely,abused as a child. And he
thought eating another person'sheart would Nicky less lonely
that he would bond with them? Itwas a strange. It's like the
(43:30):
Dahmer story of putting bodiesin a preservative by his bed.
Remember the Dahmer story?
Daniel Goleman (43:41):
I hear you very strongly recommending emotional
bonding as a first step. But I'ma little puzzled as to what's
next. And managing conflict. Forexample, the all too common
situation these days that youpoint to where their leaves us
in them divides. How can westart to mend that?
George Kohlrieser (44:01):
I think the next step then is to make sure
that you don't make the personthe problem, you have to
separate the person from theproblem. And then you have to
know what you want. Why? Why areyou talking to them?
Daniel Goleman (44:13):
Can you explain how to separate a person from a
problem? Okay,
George Kohlrieser (44:17):
so if you got a person with five problems,
they're too aggressive. Theydon't respect other people. They
dominate a meeting, they may befive different things. But they
are not the problem. The momentyou make them the problem, you
will become a psychologicalhostage. So you separate out the
(44:37):
problems.
Daniel Goleman (44:38):
Making them the problem might mean, you dismiss
them. He's like that. That meanshe and problem are one of the
same.
George Kohlrieser (44:46):
He's just a troublemaker. He's just crazy.
He's always going to fightwhatever we want.
Daniel Goleman (44:53):
Instead of saying, he's a person who does
X, Y, or Z.
George Kohlrieser (44:59):
That's it.
Actually, that's a greatparaphrase. Dan,
Daniel Goleman (45:02):
I just want to be sure we understand. That's
Carl
George Kohlrieser (45:05):
Rogers in action. So separate person from
time and know what you want.
What is your goal, what yourdesire, your interest, or the
fish or the problem, then knowwhat the other person wants? I
think it's important to startwith yourself, first of all, to
know why you are there. What isthe purpose? What is the meaning
(45:26):
of having this conversation? IfI want to train myself, and I
talked to a homeless person? Orsomeone who's very aggressive on
the street? Why would I want toapproach them and talk to them?
Well, I'm desiring to learn howto talk to a very aggressive
person, understand someone whois on the street living on the
street? And what is their knee,what would they like from me,
(45:50):
and then you do this throughdialogue. And then ultimately,
you find some solution based ona common goal. Ultimately, in
work situations, the leaderreaching a common goal of why
are we going to bond, we don'thave to like one another, that's
important, we can disagree. Andwe have to not let that
(46:13):
disagreement get in the way of abond. So I can disagree with my
leader, but I don't let itinterfere with the bonding, I
would do something different.
But I'm willing to make aconcession because that's what
you believe is right, or that'swhat the team believes is right.
And we come to some agreement inthat consensus of where we're
(46:36):
going to go.
Daniel Goleman (46:37):
So what you're saying is that a win win
solution isn't necessarily yourfavorite solution, but it's good
enough,
George Kohlrieser (46:45):
it's good enough to match that goal. I
think that there's a griefreaction when the other person
doesn't change enough. Knowingthat they're doing their best,
many people are trying to dotheir best, but doing their best
to not interfere with other teammembers. They may just be quiet,
or be afraid to speak up. Butwe're going to help them speak
(47:08):
up. And they have to speak up ifthey want to be part of that
meeting, to modify thatbehavior, but that I can accept
them for the way they are. Anddemanding change or asking for
change is a very delicateprocess. Now, here's what I also
learned very clearly. And I knowyou know this, people do not
(47:29):
naturally resist change. Theyresist the pain of change, and
the fear of the unknown. So whenyou are a secure base, and
you're able to help them feelprotected, and they don't feel
the fear, or they don't feel thepain, or the pain is recognized
or understood, they will seekthat change and be willing to go
(47:51):
forward. people every day, seekadventure, seek new activities,
change jobs, do all kinds ofthings that involve pain,
running a marathon, during anIronman, because they see the
benefit of that activity, andthey're willing
Daniel Goleman (48:07):
to change. You know, Viktor Frankl who wrote
Man's Search for Meaning afterhe got out of German
concentration camps he'd been infor four years. He liked quote,
a line from Nietzsche. If youhave a wider live, you can
manage almost anyhow, aboutdealing with pain because you
see a deeper purpose for it.
George Kohlrieser (48:28):
Yeah. Edith Edgar, who's 92 years old group
went through Auschwitz, 13 yearsold, 14 years old, who wrote a
book called The choices. Hermentor was Viktor Frankl. And
she says, You can't change thepast. But you can change your
perception in the future, howyou interpreted, she considered
being an ashram, it's a gift. Ittaught her more about the joy of
(48:52):
life than anything else. That'sViktor Frankl in action.
Daniel Goleman (48:55):
On that wonderful note, I'm going to
thank you very much for havingjoined us on first person,
plural. And I look forward tothe next time we meet and talk.
I hope it'll be
George Kohlrieser (49:05):
sooner rather than later than that. It's been
a real pleasure. Thank you.
Hanuman Goleman (49:18):
Thanks for listening to our interview with
George Cole research. If you'veenjoyed this episode, please
share it with your friends.
Elizabeth Solomon (49:25):
Before we go, it's time for Ask Dan.
Hanuman Goleman (49:33):
Have you ever wanted to ask Dan Goleman
anything about emotionalintelligence, mindfulness
meditation or leadership ormaybe purpose or life in
general?
Elizabeth Solomon (49:43):
If you've got questions, Dan has answers.
Submit your question viavoicemail at Keystep
media.com/ask. Dan, yourquestion could be selected and
featured on an upcoming episode.
Kerry Seed (49:58):
What's the difference between them?
Rational intelligence and IQ.
Daniel Goleman (50:02):
The difference is really important. Our IQ,
which refers basically to ourcognitive abilities, technical
skills, doesn't change muchthrough life, it might be based
on something as simple as howquickly your brain can process
and master new information.
That's one theory. EmotionalIntelligence, on the other hand,
(50:23):
is learned and learnable. And ithas to do with an entirely
different skill set, how wemanage ourselves, and how we
manage our relationships, how weinteract with people, that's
very different from IQ, someonewho's very smart, IQ wise, can
be not so good at emotionalintelligence. And it turns out
(50:43):
that, for example, when youthink about a profession, being
a computer programmer, or beinga lawyer, being a doctor, IQ
skills are very important to getinto the game. They're what's
called thresholds. But onceyou're in the game, you're
competing with people who areabout as smart as you are.
(51:05):
That's where IQ falls away is apredictor of who's going to be
outstanding, who will be aleader who will be the best
performer and emotionalintelligence takes over there
was a study done, for example ofengineers, where they're asked
to rate each other on how theydo as engineers, and it turned
out their rating oneffectiveness as engineers had
(51:29):
nothing to do with their IQ,very highly related to their
emotional intelligence. Can youpersuade people can you listen,
can you communicate? Can youhandle your own emotions, all of
those things make yououtstanding, and they have
little or nothing to do withyour IQ. They have everything to
do with emotional intelligence.
Kerry Seed (52:05):
And that's our show.
Special thanks to Rene and Vera,whose voices you heard at the
top of the show and to ourguest, George coal reserves. You
can find more about George thebooks he's written and the
courses he teaches at Georgecoal reserve.com and at KLA dot
Swiss. We also have the links inthe show notes on our website,
first person plural.com. Whileyou're there, you can check out
(52:28):
guest BIOS transcripts andresources mentioned in today's
episode. You can also follow uson Instagram at keyset media. If
you enjoyed our discussion withGeorge colorizer. Check out some
of our past interviews. Ourseries about conflict management
includes this episode, and theepisodes with Aaron Wolf and
Karen Ziggler. None of thiswould be possible without our
(52:51):
incredible team. Our hosts areDaniel Goleman, Hanuman Goleman
and Elizabeth Solomon. BryantJohnson creates the beautiful
art you see with each episode.
Our audio editor is MichelleZipkin. Serena Cardin does
marketing Our music is by AmberO'Hara and ghosts beats and I'm
curious seed. This podcast issponsored by Keystep media, your
(53:14):
source for personal andprofessional development
materials focused onmindfulness, leadership and
emotional intelligence. Nexttime, we'll discuss the
pandemic's effect on children'semotional balance with New York
Times correspondent Claire KaneMiller. Until then, take care of
yourself and we'll talk soon
Thanks for tuning in. This week, we're wrapping up
our series on conflictmanagement with our guests
George coal reserves. He hasquite a resume. He's a
psychologist, a hostagenegotiator and an international
best selling author. He's also adistinguished professor of
leadership and organizationalbehavior at IMD business school
in Switzerland, and a consultantto companies around the world.
(00:36):
On top of all that, he's anincredible storyteller. I really
think you'll enjoy this one. Webegin each show with the voice
of a young person to remind usof how we all started out. And
this week, our friends, Rene andVera talk about conflict and how
it feels. Tell me about a timeyou were mad.
Unknown (01:03):
When Reagan were fighting, like what made you
mad? I don't know. It's likekinda, he's being a little bit
annoying. Okay, and what doesanger feel like? It's feels kind
of I feel bad all the time. AndI just get angry. And it feels
(01:26):
bad to agree. Who do you go towhen you feel upset? God, and
you would get?
Elizabeth Solomon (01:35):
And how does?
How did those people help you?
Unknown (01:39):
They helped me good.
They're nice. And I liked it.
God watches over me. And I don'tknow why we're keep be dragging
on Friday, get the center God.
And I don't like Sunita God, ordisobey.
Kerry Seed (02:01):
Thank you, Renee and Vera. And now on with the show.
Hanuman Goleman (02:13):
Welcome to first person plural, the
motional intelligence andbeyond. I'm hanuman Goleman.
Elizabeth Solomon (02:19):
I'm Elizabeth Solomon.
Daniel Goleman (02:20):
And I'm Daniel Goleman.
Elizabeth Solomon (02:22):
We've been talking about conflict
management as we see it insystems and in our own lives.
Hanuman Goleman (02:27):
And today, we're going to delve into the
Theory of Conflict Managementwith our guest, George Cole
Rieser. George was a hostagenegotiator with the Dayton
Police Department. Before westart, I want you to know that
some of his stories includegraphic depictions of people in
crisis, this content might bedisturbing for some of you. So I
(02:48):
encourage you to prepareyourself emotionally beforehand.
Or if you think it might be toomuch, skip this one. And join us
next time.
Elizabeth Solomon (02:55):
As you're probably gathering. George has a
lot of wild stories. But I wasreally charmed by this one.
George Kohlrieser (03:04):
I traveled to Italy in the early 80s doing
workshops, and I went down tothe fish market early in the
morning. And here were all theirfishermen coming in with their
catch. And they were cleaningthose fish and it was a bloody
smelly mess. But they werelaughing. They enjoyed it. They
also had a good glass of wine,aprons with your name what was
(03:27):
around and I was just watchingthis. And they were looking at
me. And I thought this wasinteresting. So I went down the
next day. And lo and behold,they invited me to come in there
I was with a glass of wine, aknife cleaning these fish, just
loving it. And it was a bloody,smelly mess. Now I grew up on a
farm so I knew what it is toclean a fish. But I never
(03:48):
particularly enjoyed it tillthat point. And I thought, This
is what conflict management isput the fish on the table, go
through the bloody, smelly messof cleaning it for the grade
fish dinner at the end of theday. And how many teams how many
leaders keep fish under thetable the conflicts and it
becomes toxic.
Elizabeth Solomon (04:09):
I think that simple story really gets at the
heart of conflict management.
Hanuman Goleman (04:13):
And you really go into the Theory of Conflict
Management in this interview,what are some key points we
should listen for?
Daniel Goleman (04:21):
I think George is a master of conflict
management. And one of thethings that he's especially good
at is making that connection tothe other person which is over
and above the particularconflict. But that's the
platform that lets him start torepair things.
Elizabeth Solomon (04:41):
I think curiosity is at perhaps like the
greatest source of conflictprevention or antidote to
conflict, the greatest strategyand such a you know, we can
cultivate curiosity about kindof the other side or the other
person we can do that from thepoint that's early on. We can
also keep conflict fromescalating
Daniel Goleman (04:59):
or think empathy is really key here. George, as I
said, as a master of findingthat connection, he is a
beautiful empathizer. And ofcourse, there are three kinds of
empathy. There's cognitiveempathy, I know how you think
about it. There's emotionalempathy. I know how you're
feeling. But there's a thirdtime, which was really important
(05:20):
here, which is I care about you,I'm concerned about you. And
it's that kind of empathy thatcreates with George calls,
actually, from Bowlby via Dr.
Bennett, Goldman's book,emotional alchemy and mindless
spring, which George creditsactually talks about a secure
base sense of being able torelax with the person that I
(05:43):
feel safe here. And howimportant that is. And George
and his work with leaders, forexample, really encourages
something explicitly credit starfor which is the inner secure
base, not only being with peoplewho make you feel that way, but
being able to create it insideyourself. And this secure base
(06:04):
is a deeper kind of platform forconnecting.
Elizabeth Solomon (06:13):
I love this piece around empathic concern,
because it really ties back intothis piece around shared values,
right. And I think when we'recoming at someone with a sense
of empathic concern, and saying,like, I really want you to sort
of have what you want and need,and I also want myself to have
what I want and need in this.
And I care for both of us inthis situation. And so how do we
find those kinds of those thingsthat are mutually beneficial
(06:35):
within the conflict or withinthe conversation?
Daniel Goleman (06:41):
us when you say curiosity, I'm hearing empathy,
really caring to understand theother person?
Elizabeth Solomon (06:47):
Yeah. And also curious, you know, I think
some of conflict is us, perhapssubconsciously narrowly thinking
there's only one way forward,right? We're like, this is the
way this is the thing. And Ithink curiosity is both about
wanting to understand anotherperson, but also about saying,
what other ways forward couldthere be? And what do I need to
do to sort of unravel myselffrom this idea that the only way
(07:08):
to meet my needs or your needsis through this kind of one
singular path or one onedirection and widening the
sphere to think about adifferent range of
possibilities.
Daniel Goleman (07:20):
So you're saying Be flexible, be adaptable, be
creative, and finding a range ofpossibilities that will be
acceptable enough to both? TheWin Win idea really has to do
with finding a solution, whichis satisfactory enough for each
side, not what you wanted in thefirst place, but I can live with
(07:42):
this.
Hanuman Goleman (07:43):
So with that in mind, let's listen to George
coal research and his ideasabout the Theory of Conflict
Management.
Daniel Goleman (07:51):
I want to welcome to first person plural,
my good dear friend, George ColeReser. He's a psychologist,
professor at IMD in Lausanne,Switzerland. He's been a police
psychologist, we'll hear aboutthat he started out as a hostage
negotiator. And from that hedeveloped the principles of the
(08:12):
program he directs, which is onhigh performance leadership.
It's now standing program forsenior leaders. And George,
welcome to the podcast.
George Kohlrieser (08:21):
Thank you, Dan. It's a pleasure to be here
with you again.
Daniel Goleman (08:24):
And let's just start where you started out,
which is when you were aclinical psychologist, somehow
you got a job working withpolice to negotiate hostage
situations, can you tell usabout it. I was
George Kohlrieser (08:39):
trained as a mediator. That was my goal in
becoming a clinicalpsychologist. So the focus was
on how to handle disputes. And Ihad an opportunity to work for a
local police department inDayton, Ohio, and to enter into
a domestic violence program thatthe government was offering
because 35% of homicides wereoccurring in families. And the
(09:03):
police had almost always beenthere before. So if we could get
mediators in to talk to people,we can reduce that homicide
rate. Well, in getting to knowthe police riding with them, and
they were very paranoid aboutpsychologists, they didn't like
us very much in the beginning. Iwas part of writing with the
lieutenant. And we got a callthat there was a hostage taking
(09:25):
at a local hospital.
Daniel Goleman (09:26):
What did you walk into what was the
situation?
George Kohlrieser (09:28):
This was a psychotic man, basically, who
had been stabbed by his ex wifeafter he kicked the door.
indicies kids against a courtorder. He was holding a nurse
hostage. He was screaming, Idon't want to live I have
nothing to live for. I'm goingto kill everybody I can. So I
arrived with them. And the unithad been secured. I was standing
(09:49):
behind a lieutenant who had nowbecome the incident commander,
watching this with open eyes.
And as he looked around todecide who he was going to ask
to go into that room. Boom,because we couldn't use tear
gas, we couldn't kick the door.
And he turned around and lookedright at my eyes and says,
George, how would you like to dothat? Whoa, talk about social
(10:10):
pressure. All the policeofficers, they were looking out,
okay, does he have it or not?
Being a risk taker, I had tomake that decision. If I don't
go in, I don't think I couldhave continued to work because I
lost all credibility. And at thesame time, I felt curious. And I
had the sense that thisLieutenant which he became a
(10:31):
secure base to me, trusted me.
So I got in and Sam was acrossthe room and everything I was
saying, was not working. He wasjust screaming and shouting, and
then he cuts you to stroke. Nother juggler. But on the side,
screaming she fell to theground. My kids, my kids, my
(10:54):
kids, that was the last thingthat was on her mind. He stepped
back sort of startled, I firsthad to manage her to get a
bandaid on this cut this wound.
And then he came around thetable towards me now, in a
nanosecond, I had to decide do Icall the police end to
restraining? Do I throw my bodyat his feet? Or do I talk in
(11:14):
dialogue with him? And theanswer was to talk and bond with
him. He approaches me puts thescissors to my throat, never
cuts my skin. But he'sscreaming, I'm gonna kill you
everybody. I can again, nothingwas working. And after about two
minutes, I asked him a question,Sam, how do you want your
(11:37):
children to remember you? Hepaused. Then he screamed out,
I'll kill my children to I'mgoing to kill you. I have
nothing to live for, et cetera,et cetera. He really went off
the deep end even further. Buthe didn't push the scissors
anymore. In fact, that was agood answer. Although it sounded
not so good. Now we've startedthe dialogue. So I come back,
(12:00):
Sam, we have to talk about yourkids, how do you want them to
remember you? And that was thestart of the whole negotiation.
He said, Well, I'll just killmyself. And then we're gonna
have to think about it. And thetransactions were what you want
your kids to remember you as amurderer? Do you want them to
remember you as a father whocommit suicide, and he started
(12:21):
to de escalate. And within 10minutes, Sheila got out within
20 minutes, because he had beenstabbed near his heart, we had
to get him to another part ofthe hospital. He was willing to
walk out with an agreement thatfirst giving up the scissors and
asking a question. And this iswhat hostage negotiators do.
(12:43):
This is part of what message Ireally learned. You ask
questions. It's not command andcontrol leadership, saying what
do you want to do with thatscissors? You want to give it to
me or throw it on the floor? Hegave it to me, then do you want
to be handcuffed in the front orin the back? And you want the
police to come in three goodquestions. Which Dan, I'm sure
(13:03):
you know, is that each time yougive a question, and they
respond, it empowers them, evenif it's a no and empowers them.
So that fortunately was thestory. And he came out. And I
did have the agreement in thenegotiation, that I would go to
(13:24):
the judge and plead his case,because he could probably go to
prison, I would come to theprison and help in re uniting
with his kids. And thirdly, Iwould follow up and go with to
the kids and say he gave upbecause he loved you. He loved
his kids. That was the key. Buthe was in grief.
Daniel Goleman (13:47):
So powerful Jordan, I'd like to unpack that.
And I can't imagine anythingmore tense to bring a
disagreement into the open,which you did, to find a
solution or define a solutionthat everyone could endorse,
which he did, which isastounding to me. And to
understand his perspective tonot just to see dismiss him as
(14:09):
some psychotic guy, but he had apoint of view, and to
acknowledge the views and findan agreeable resolution. It's
astounding. Those are the keysteps of a classic conflict
management.
George Kohlrieser (14:22):
It was one of four times I've been hostage. It
was not the most dangerous. Ifaced someone with a gun who
actually shot the gun. But Samdid not want to kill me. He
could have put that scissors inmy heart. He could have killed
me, but he wanted something. AndI knew that. That is how you
have to be able to manage yourmind's eye to see the person is
(14:44):
not the problem, that there'sanother problem to be solved. I
was dealing with Sam, the man,the man hurting to separate the
person from the problem. Andafterwards when I came out. I
was so full of an Amiga. Ahijack which you described. So
Well Dan, I screamed, how dareyou send me into that room, I
(15:07):
need to talk to you before wedebrief this, I really left him
to have it, he just put his handon my shoulder and said, George,
I knew you could do it, he tookmost of the wind out of what I
was saying, I kept coming back,but I didn't sign up for this,
this is suicidal. And he said hewas clever. But I gave you a
choice. I asked you if you want,it was done so well as a secure
(15:30):
base. And it changed thetrajectory of my career. And
that became a red thread in theremaining part of my conflict
management work. And myleadership work here at IMD and
around the world, of being ableto deal with disputes using this
whole idea of what hostagenegotiators do to get their high
(15:51):
rate of success.
Daniel Goleman (15:53):
And from that, you took home a lot of learning,
George Kohlrieser (15:57):
I learned that I could face an extreme
situation and manage it. I hadlearned from sports figures,
that you do what you know, andyou know what to do. And I
remember telling myself as Iwhat am I going to do, telling
myself, I know what to do, and Ido what I know. And so I learned
(16:18):
how not to be controlled byfear. Because I did feel fear.
There was a point where I had anamygdala hijack, I thought I was
going to be killed. But then Ihad to come back to be my own
internal secure base, to be ableto be an external secure base.
And it was the person effectthat really got to Sam, I think
(16:40):
it was my caring attitude, andmy willingness to take a risk
that communicated to him that Ireally did care which I did.
Here's a man who was grievinghis children. That's why he went
to the house. totallyunbelievable childhood abuse and
going from foster home to fosterhome and sexual abuse. And when
(17:03):
he went to prison, I did becomea kind of father to him to teach
him. This is not what a mandoes. A man does not beat up
their wife, a man does not go inand kick the door. And, and he
became willing to listen to meand adapt his behavior. But it
changed the whole trajectory ofmy career, because it was
clearly a leadership activity.
And words became the foundationof being able to deal with that.
Daniel Goleman (17:29):
But, George, you've gone on from there, and
I'd like to hear your journey,how this informed the way you
saw leadership, and otherconflict situations that you
have advised on since then,please tell us.
George Kohlrieser (17:45):
Here's the point, Dan, for leadership and
emotional intelligence, you haveto deal with the emotions. And
you know this from all the greatwork you're doing with emotional
intelligence, you have to beable to de escalate emotions,
and many leaders get triggered.
And what I did, and hostagenegotiation is a fundamental
leadership activity. You can'tuse command and control, you
(18:09):
cannot tell the hostage takercome out, or we're going to send
the SWAT team in, you'll get thehostages killed, you have to
work with them, de escalatethem, find the motivation. And
well, here's what's interesting,it will work in 95% of the
cases, as measured by the FBIand Interpol here in Europe.
Isn't that amazing?
Daniel Goleman (18:31):
So one of the things you emphasize I'd love to
hear about is how important itis to form a bond of trust in
the beginning. Yeah,
George Kohlrieser (18:40):
trust is a fundamental commodity of
leadership. And you don't haveto like someone to bond to them.
That's the big learning, youonly need a common goal. So if a
leader can establish a commongoal, they can bond to an enemy
to an adversary. And they turnthat adversary or that enemy
(19:02):
into An Ally through thatbonding process. But it's goal
driven. But the big thing is theleader has to manage their own
fight flight reflex, their ownreactive tendency to escalate
emotions, what you call the selfawareness, they have to be aware
of the emotional escalationinside and be able to manage
(19:24):
that.
Daniel Goleman (19:24):
You've called that being hostage to our own
emotions. hostage at the tableis your seminal book about this.
What does that really mean? Yousaw it out in the open, I guess
in hostage negotiation, but thenyou recognize something similar
was going on with executives.
George Kohlrieser (19:43):
Very good point. Thank you, Dan. There's a
thing to be a physical hostage,but you can also be a
psychological hostage, and thatis to a boss, to a colleague to
an employee to a situation to asupplier and personal life to
spouses. children, teachers, therange of what is possible to be
(20:04):
a hostage to psychologicallywithout a weapon is so
prevalent, even this pandemic,many people felt like they were
a hostage to the pandemic. Itmeans powerlessness, it means
you feel powerless, you can evenbe a hostage to yourself. That
means that you are filled withanger or revenge or shame, the
(20:27):
1000s of internal states thathold you from being able to feel
the full joy of life, see thebeauty of life, see the the
opportunities, and behind thatblindness is always going to be
loss or grief that holds youback. So this is coming out in
(20:49):
many ways by the emotions andthe emotional states. And part
of that a building trust is tobe a secure base. And secure
base basically means someone ora goal or something that calms
the brain. So that you see, notthreat, but you see opportunity.
Daniel Goleman (21:11):
So what you're saying is that a leader becomes
a safe container. For thefeelings that need to be
expressed. One thing you've toldme over the years that I was
always intrigued by was thatoften people in your leadership
training programs end up intears. Why Islam?
George Kohlrieser (21:29):
Right? We have a special way of
approaching this this programhas been going on since 2000 135
versions of it plus more incompanies and so forth. And it
has only one case, we don't usethe case method of presenting
leaders and then imitate them.
The case is you and digging intowho you are the foundations and
(21:52):
following the person we bothloved so much, Warren Bennis,
who talked about the cruciblesas building the character of a
leader, how do we go back in thefoundation and look for those
crucibles, the pain points, andthen deal with them. So we see
so many leaders come in filledwith pain that they're blind to,
(22:13):
they don't realize it's a hiddengrief. And so we create the safe
haven, the safe container,generally within a group of 55.
And then within small groups offive or six, to open up whatever
that trauma may have been, orthat crucible, and they grieve
over something that may havehappened years ago, and free
(22:35):
themselves from being a hostageto that. So for many they've
never cried. They neverexpressed with words what that
pain is inside. And then it's sosad. We had three major suicides
here in the last years in, inSwitzerland, the CEO of
(22:56):
Swisscom, who took a rope andkilled himself after going
through a terrible he was anentrepreneur, a vibrant love
leader, but he got a new bosswho held him like a lion in a
cage. And he was going through apersonal situation of loss with
his spouse. And rather thanreveal or express that grief,
(23:17):
and build up and he would dophysical activities, mountain
biking, and he just took a ropeand killed himself. Similar with
the CFO of Zurich Financial,although his family was very
much intact. And then the CEO ofZurich Financial, who felt
guilty for over 18 months, hedidn't protect his CFO took a
(23:38):
rope and killed himself threeexamples of top leaders who had
hidden grief, and they couldn'texpress it. This is why we have
to be able to help leadersunravel the crucibles in their
life.
Daniel Goleman (23:55):
So that's a kind of conflict management within
Yeah, it's an internal conflict.
But let me start back. I'd liketo pick up on the thread of your
work in conflict management. Iknow you've been doing as a
consultant, for example, youmentioned the other day, some
work you've done in Mongolia ofall places. But could you tell
us about a couple of instanceswhere you actually used some of
(24:17):
the principles of conflictmanagement to help a company or
an executive?
George Kohlrieser (24:24):
Yeah, thank you. By the way, that was over
zoom. I did not actually dealwith the pandemic. But here was
the mining company who was inbig trouble. They were about to
be thrown out of the country.
They had been thrown out of someother countries, and they kept
selling the benefits. Werebringing 10,000 jobs. We're
bringing all this but thepoliticians, the stakeholders
were having pain points. Theywere upset and they kept
(24:49):
demanding concessions, and thecompany made so many concessions
they couldn't make any more. Sowhat they couldn't do, Dan was
what we call put the fish on thetable, sit down and talk with
the politicians, the investors,the stakeholders, the community,
and hear them scream and yell atthem, I mean, really be angry,
(25:10):
and to listen to the pain pointsand keep the bond. And it was
amazing. After three months ofthis, the whole situation
started deescalate. And therewill be triggers that would
bring it up, but they wouldn'trun away from the conflict. And
so they engage them. And aftersix months, they reached one of
(25:31):
the most magnificent deals forthem. That was mutually benefit.
We call it mutual gain.
Daniel Goleman (25:38):
Sounds like a kind of classic situation in the
business world where peoplewithin the company convinced
themselves that they're doinggood in some way. And they try
to sell that good, withoutempathizing, without them to the
people who are going to beimpacted. To hear well, what are
they worried about? Is thatright? Yeah,
George Kohlrieser (25:59):
that's the starting point, pain points, not
selling the benefits. But whatis the pain point that motivates
that decision? And that'sbehavioral economics in action,
already in 1992. With thebehavioral economics model, they
identified people are basicallyirrational decisions are made in
which you know, throughemotional intelligence, by
(26:22):
emotions that drive thosedecisions, but the biggest drive
is the loss, not the benefit. Wedo more things in decision
making based on past loss, doyou future loss, anticipated
loss or present loss thatinfluences the decision, even if
you are the most rational personin the world, and this is what
we have many leaders who areengineers and financial people,
(26:45):
you know, for them, bonding issomething you buy and sell. But
they have to learn what empathyis and how to bond to people.
Daniel Goleman (26:53):
Exactly. I want to circle back, George, you used
a phrase that may be puzzling topeople that put the fish on the
table, which comes from yourexperience in Sicily.
George Kohlrieser (27:02):
Yeah. You know, I traveled to Italy, in
the early 80s, doing workshops,and I went down to the fish
market early in the morning. Andhere were all their fishermen
coming in with their catch. Andthey were cleaning those fish,
and it was a bloody smelly mess.
But they were laughing. Theyenjoyed it. They also had a good
glass of wine, aprons with yourname, what was around and I was
(27:26):
just watching this, and theywere looking at me. And I
thought this was interesting. SoI went down the next day. And lo
and behold, they invited me tocome in there I was with a glass
of wine, a knife cleaning thesefish, just loving it. And it was
a bloody, smelly mess. Now Igrew up on a farm so I knew what
it is to clean a fish. But Inever particularly enjoyed it
(27:47):
till that point. And I thought,This is what conflict management
is. Put the fish on the table,go through the bloody, smelly
mess of cleaning it for thegreat fish dinner at the end of
the day. And how many teams howmany leaders keep fish under the
table but complex and it becomestoxic? Can you give us an
(28:07):
example of that? So for example,someone who feels disrespected,
or someone who feelsembarrassed, doesn't get a
project, or in a merger andacquisition, how to be able to
sit down and talk to them. Howdo you feel disrespected. And to
hear the fish under the table ofhow they feel there was a bias
(28:31):
implicit or explicit, or thereis someone who is too
aggressive. And they're tooaggressive on team members. They
don't come to meetings on time.
So you have to sit down and youhave to not sugarcoat it, not
sugarcoat it, be able to putthat fish on the table. The
reality is you're too aggressivewith team members, with clients
(28:56):
that needs to be changed. Areyou aware of that? No, I'm not
aware of it. I've been born thatway. That's who I am. I love
those people, because you engagethem, you help them understand
there's another way to get tosuccess. And they can change
their behavior if you put thatfish on the table. But what we
learned from hostagenegotiation, it's always by
(29:18):
choice. You can't force someoneto change. You have to be able
to hear the pain points, andthen invite by choice. And this
is why we know command andcontrol leadership. And you have
it in your article leadershipthat gets results. That whole
call received the whole paysetting. It doesn't really
motivate people because it's toomuch command and control. It
(29:39):
takes away bonding and takesaway choice.
Daniel Goleman (29:42):
One of the things that I heard recently
from a friend of mine whoassesses top level executives, a
global company, she said every Csuite executive I've met has the
achievement drive very stronglythat competence, but the ones
that people like to work for anddon't hate working for also have
(30:03):
empathy.
George Kohlrieser (30:04):
It's so clear, it's so clear, people
need to feel cared about. Andthe research is over and over by
Gallup and others, thatengagement is connected to
feeling cared about, Gallupactually uses that word. And
they connected to empathy. Yourboss has to care about you. But
(30:25):
here's the secret, how to be100%, caring, and 100% daring.
That's a secure base leadership,we found this in, in our
research with over 1000executives, that they were able
to be both caring, 100% anddaring. 100%.
Daniel Goleman (30:42):
What do you mean by daring, caring is clear, but
daring. But daring means
George Kohlrieser (30:46):
that you take them out of their comfort zone,
you give them challengingprojects, you ask them to do
different things, you give theman opportunity to learn new
skills, new, new things thatthey wouldn't ordinarily do. So
they are daring themselves totry something different. And
when people feel challenged,they're going to be more
(31:06):
motivated not to challenge. Butbeing able to have within a
certain range of competencies,the ability to learn that any
talent that you develop, meansyou have to be able to dare
yourself, whether it's a newlanguage of sport, or whatever
it might be.
Daniel Goleman (31:24):
So is this related to innovation, for
example? Absolutely.
George Kohlrieser (31:28):
Because innovation is going to be risk
taking daring is risk taking.
One of the big failures ofleaders is as they move up, they
often become too risk avoided,they lose the appetite for risk
taking, and we need risk taking.
And we have leaders who are toonice, we're sort of following a
(31:49):
research path here that nice isnot the way to lead. Kindness is
kindness and respect is thefoundation. But you know, being
nice is a kind of lie. You don'tuse sugarcoat it, and you don't
really say the truth, as opposedto being kind.
Daniel Goleman (32:06):
So kindness, the way you're using it. And I agree
with you, by the way, soundslike you wouldn't hesitate to
raise a conflict that you detectgoing on. So walk us through the
steps that someone might take ina team or in a leadership
position. When you sense thereis a simmering conflict. And
(32:27):
then what,
George Kohlrieser (32:28):
okay, so if you're going to do it on a team
basis, and Google found thiswith psychological safety, the
need to be able to share thetalking amount of time, do it
with emotional intelligence andrespect. So you would put
whatever the issue is theproblem. For example, we just
(32:49):
had a case where someone wanteda project, and they didn't get
that project, you didn't have achance to tell them a before
they they went home one evening,and they found out at the coffee
machine the next morning. Thereason was they didn't hold
people accountable enough. Sothis was done by latterly, the
person comes in very angry, Ididn't get this project, I found
(33:11):
out the coffee machine, I wantto resign, you're terrible boss,
I trusted you. And now I don'ttrust you. So the boss has to be
able to manage that and startthe dialogue over what is this
person upset about both thecoffee machine and not getting
the project? So where do youwant to start giving choice?
(33:33):
Well, I want to know why to getthe project, good. Reward the
concession, let the coffeemachine stand over to the side.
First of all, expressing empathythat you would be upset to arise
a boss would be upset if I foundout at the coffee machine. But
then you say truthfully, theissue is you don't hold people
accountable. You're makingprogress. But you have to be
(33:54):
able in this project to reallyhold people accountable. Then
you ask the question, do youagree with that? Or do you
disagree? And then you go fromthere. And whatever the behavior
is, you want to be able toexpress it. So the leader, and
Warren Bennis always said this,and I'm sure you probably heard
him, the leader has a right todefine reality just a little
(34:19):
more than everybody else. Butyou want to reality that the
group can agree to a consensus.
Because if you argue about whatthe problem is, it's never going
to get solved. But you have tomake sure you've listened to
every perception that was hispoint. Listen to every
procession, in the military hasthis actually developed the most
I mean, the military, in manyways does encourage emotional
(34:41):
intelligence now does encouragepsychological safety. And if
you're on a Navy SEAL team orthat SEAL team, they have to
come to quick consensus. Andthey're able to do that by a
leadership style that allowspeople to say What they think
but then we come together andagree, if there is a issue
(35:02):
that's blocking that, you haveto honestly put it on the table
and not sugarcoat it.
Daniel Goleman (35:10):
So this is interesting because it speaks to
something people have to do allthe time, with their parents,
with kids or leaders with theirdirect reports. And that is give
performance feedback. And it'sinteresting to me that you say
don't sugarcoat it. On the otherhand, you want to keep the
connection, you want to keep thebond. So how do you manage that?
George Kohlrieser (35:33):
Well, if they want to be a high performer, and
they want to be able to developtheir talents, you always have
to go through pain. I don't careif it's learning a language, a
musical instrument, becoming adoctor in hospital, becoming a
police officer, whatever you'relearning as a talent, you have
(35:54):
to be able to go through andpractice doing it and you're
going to fail, and you getbetter each time. And the best
way to do that is to getfeedback you need, according to
the research, practicing the10,000 hours, practicing
correctly, and having a teacheror a secure base, who gives you
(36:15):
honest feedback. Musicalinstruments, for example,
learning a musical instrument asa child, if you have a secure
base teacher, you're probablygoing to stick with that musical
instrument. Most kids stopbecause they don't have a
teacher who's there making thepain of practicing beneficial,
seeing the benefit. So highperformers, ambition is
(36:38):
connected to being able to teachyour brain how to go through
pain for a better result, notjust the immediate gratification
of no pain, the brain hatespain, very clear, the brain
hates pain. But you rewire yourbrain to go through the pain to
get to a better outcome. Buthigh performers want pain, high
(37:01):
performers want to know thetruth. How can I improve? How
can I be better. And that bringsin that whole style of coaching
that you talk about in yourarticle on leadership that gets
results, the leader who takeshis moment to help someone
understand how to be better howto bring out the best in them.
(37:21):
But that takes a caringattitude.
Daniel Goleman (37:24):
So you don't just say what the person is
doing wrong. But you also helpthem see what they can do. That
could be right. Oh, yeah,
George Kohlrieser (37:32):
it's to benefit them. And I know you're
working a lot now with meaningand purpose, which is so
powerful. I mean, it is soimportant to know the person
what motivates them? Whatmeaning or purpose? What is
their goal? Do they want careeradvancement? Do they want a
salary increase and externalmotivation? Or are they looking
(37:54):
for something internal, reallymeaning and purpose, and you tie
it together? Whatever the changeof behavior is demanded to help
them get to that, assuming theywant success? What kind of
success do they want, I can helpyou be more successful. If you
will speak up in a meeting, ifyou will, even if you're an
(38:15):
introvert, still be able toexpress take your place for
women to be able to deal withconflict in a stronger way,
stand up and take their space.
If someone is treating otherswith disrespect, that's a
problem. You're talking topeople with aggression with too
much aggression. You're you'retalking with people
disrespectfully. And so it's putin the positive context of how
(38:38):
it fits into their meaning andpurpose.
Daniel Goleman (38:43):
So in other words, you deliver the painful
information, but you do it byframing it in terms of this is
going to help
George Kohlrieser (38:51):
you. Perfect, that's a that's a perfect
paraphrase. You probably knowhow many leaders don't know how
to paraphrase. They complainabout not being able to listen,
but they can't paraphrase whatthey just heard. Or they say I'm
good at listening. But theycan't paraphrase and say what
was said to them.
Daniel Goleman (39:09):
And the idea of paraphrasing is that you're
repeating back to the person,what you want to stand them to
have said, and so what you'resaying is that one of the first
steps or key steps to managingthese conflicts, is to listen
and to let the other personunderstand what you think they
said, and then what
George Kohlrieser (39:28):
and then you accept it. Accept it. You don't
have to agree. This is a bigmindset change. People who feel
rejected because they disagreewith what said. So I can listen
to any kind of garbage. I canlisten to perceptions that are
filled with conspiracy theories.
I don't have to agree. But if Iwant to build upon I have to
(39:50):
understand where it's comingfrom. And then at some point,
express the disagreement withrespect and then you do it In a
mutual way, and we live in aworld band that's increasingly
divisive. Look at theconfrontations mass on
airplanes, people who refuse tobe vaccinated are on one side or
(40:13):
another political right andleft. I mean, Never have we have
I seen in my lifetime, suchaggressive behavior, even at the
Oscars, the whole story of WillSmith.
Daniel Goleman (40:29):
So George, you're the expert on conflict
management, what do you advisein these us in them conflicts?
George Kohlrieser (40:37):
Well, first of all, Cooperation means I want
to build a bond, don't create anenemy. And when you have an
enemy or an adversary, build alink, train yourself to do it,
you almost need training to dothis. I mean, unless you had a
grandmother or grandfather,parents, when you grew up, who
(40:59):
was good at this, I wasfortunate I grew up on a farm in
Ohio. So my father was a greatnegotiator, he could talk to the
Amish over in Indiana and, andbuy chickens, he ran a poultry
farm. And so I saw this over andover again, how he could talk to
people who would get very upsetand very aggressive. So I
(41:20):
already had a little bit of afoundation before I turned to
this professionally. So what hasto happen is you have to have
the mindset. I want to get alongwith everybody. Oh, boy that
provokes a reaction. No, I don'twant to get along with
everybody. Well, who don't youwant to get along with? And we
(41:41):
see the tribal isation in thebrain? This is my tribe. This is
that tribe? So will you getalong with everybody? No, no,
let's be realistic. But you haveto make it very difficult for
them. And if you show interestor curiosity, they will
generally create a bond withyou. And I had a very powerful
(42:03):
learning experience in mytraining. As a psychologist of
going to Marion federalpenitentiary for a therapeutic
community with lifers. They werehaving a therapeutic community.
And we lived with them for fivedays. Well, that's a whole story
in itself. But I was assigned aparticular prisoner who had
eaten another person's heart. Hewas a cannibal. And my
(42:27):
professor, Dr. rancor, Ella,wonderful Italian, he thought it
was good for me to and I said, Ican't do this. I cannot talk to
the cannibal. I just won't doit. He very commonly talked to
me when to know why he was goodat conflict management. And he
said, What if you could learnsomething? What if you could use
(42:47):
this personally andprofessionally? So I agreed. And
when I walked in and first metthis guy, he was across the
room. And I was just sort ofparalyzed? He had the first
transaction. Do you know what hesaid to me? Are you afraid I'm
going to eat your heart? To thepoint. I sort of didn't know
(43:10):
what to say. But I said, Well,are you? And he said no, no, no.
And we became personal friends.
Through that process. I learneda lot from him. And he was
someone who was deeply lonely,abused as a child. And he
thought eating another person'sheart would Nicky less lonely
that he would bond with them? Itwas a strange. It's like the
(43:30):
Dahmer story of putting bodiesin a preservative by his bed.
Remember the Dahmer story?
Daniel Goleman (43:41):
I hear you very strongly recommending emotional
bonding as a first step. But I'ma little puzzled as to what's
next. And managing conflict. Forexample, the all too common
situation these days that youpoint to where their leaves us
in them divides. How can westart to mend that?
George Kohlrieser (44:01):
I think the next step then is to make sure
that you don't make the personthe problem, you have to
separate the person from theproblem. And then you have to
know what you want. Why? Why areyou talking to them?
Daniel Goleman (44:13):
Can you explain how to separate a person from a
problem? Okay,
George Kohlrieser (44:17):
so if you got a person with five problems,
they're too aggressive. Theydon't respect other people. They
dominate a meeting, they may befive different things. But they
are not the problem. The momentyou make them the problem, you
will become a psychologicalhostage. So you separate out the
(44:37):
problems.
Daniel Goleman (44:38):
Making them the problem might mean, you dismiss
them. He's like that. That meanshe and problem are one of the
same.
George Kohlrieser (44:46):
He's just a troublemaker. He's just crazy.
He's always going to fightwhatever we want.
Daniel Goleman (44:53):
Instead of saying, he's a person who does
X, Y, or Z.
George Kohlrieser (44:59):
That's it.
Actually, that's a greatparaphrase. Dan,
Daniel Goleman (45:02):
I just want to be sure we understand. That's
Carl
George Kohlrieser (45:05):
Rogers in action. So separate person from
time and know what you want.
What is your goal, what yourdesire, your interest, or the
fish or the problem, then knowwhat the other person wants? I
think it's important to startwith yourself, first of all, to
know why you are there. What isthe purpose? What is the meaning
(45:26):
of having this conversation? IfI want to train myself, and I
talked to a homeless person? Orsomeone who's very aggressive on
the street? Why would I want toapproach them and talk to them?
Well, I'm desiring to learn howto talk to a very aggressive
person, understand someone whois on the street living on the
street? And what is their knee,what would they like from me,
(45:50):
and then you do this throughdialogue. And then ultimately,
you find some solution based ona common goal. Ultimately, in
work situations, the leaderreaching a common goal of why
are we going to bond, we don'thave to like one another, that's
important, we can disagree. Andwe have to not let that
(46:13):
disagreement get in the way of abond. So I can disagree with my
leader, but I don't let itinterfere with the bonding, I
would do something different.
But I'm willing to make aconcession because that's what
you believe is right, or that'swhat the team believes is right.
And we come to some agreement inthat consensus of where we're
(46:36):
going to go.
Daniel Goleman (46:37):
So what you're saying is that a win win
solution isn't necessarily yourfavorite solution, but it's good
enough,
George Kohlrieser (46:45):
it's good enough to match that goal. I
think that there's a griefreaction when the other person
doesn't change enough. Knowingthat they're doing their best,
many people are trying to dotheir best, but doing their best
to not interfere with other teammembers. They may just be quiet,
or be afraid to speak up. Butwe're going to help them speak
(47:08):
up. And they have to speak up ifthey want to be part of that
meeting, to modify thatbehavior, but that I can accept
them for the way they are. Anddemanding change or asking for
change is a very delicateprocess. Now, here's what I also
learned very clearly. And I knowyou know this, people do not
(47:29):
naturally resist change. Theyresist the pain of change, and
the fear of the unknown. So whenyou are a secure base, and
you're able to help them feelprotected, and they don't feel
the fear, or they don't feel thepain, or the pain is recognized
or understood, they will seekthat change and be willing to go
(47:51):
forward. people every day, seekadventure, seek new activities,
change jobs, do all kinds ofthings that involve pain,
running a marathon, during anIronman, because they see the
benefit of that activity, andthey're willing
Daniel Goleman (48:07):
to change. You know, Viktor Frankl who wrote
Man's Search for Meaning afterhe got out of German
concentration camps he'd been infor four years. He liked quote,
a line from Nietzsche. If youhave a wider live, you can
manage almost anyhow, aboutdealing with pain because you
see a deeper purpose for it.
George Kohlrieser (48:28):
Yeah. Edith Edgar, who's 92 years old group
went through Auschwitz, 13 yearsold, 14 years old, who wrote a
book called The choices. Hermentor was Viktor Frankl. And
she says, You can't change thepast. But you can change your
perception in the future, howyou interpreted, she considered
being an ashram, it's a gift. Ittaught her more about the joy of
(48:52):
life than anything else. That'sViktor Frankl in action.
Daniel Goleman (48:55):
On that wonderful note, I'm going to
thank you very much for havingjoined us on first person,
plural. And I look forward tothe next time we meet and talk.
I hope it'll be
George Kohlrieser (49:05):
sooner rather than later than that. It's been
a real pleasure. Thank you.
Hanuman Goleman (49:18):
Thanks for listening to our interview with
George Cole research. If you'veenjoyed this episode, please
share it with your friends.
Elizabeth Solomon (49:25):
Before we go, it's time for Ask Dan.
Hanuman Goleman (49:33):
Have you ever wanted to ask Dan Goleman
anything about emotionalintelligence, mindfulness
meditation or leadership ormaybe purpose or life in
general?
Elizabeth Solomon (49:43):
If you've got questions, Dan has answers.
Submit your question viavoicemail at Keystep
media.com/ask. Dan, yourquestion could be selected and
featured on an upcoming episode.
Kerry Seed (49:58):
What's the difference between them?
Rational intelligence and IQ.
Daniel Goleman (50:02):
The difference is really important. Our IQ,
which refers basically to ourcognitive abilities, technical
skills, doesn't change muchthrough life, it might be based
on something as simple as howquickly your brain can process
and master new information.
That's one theory. EmotionalIntelligence, on the other hand,
(50:23):
is learned and learnable. And ithas to do with an entirely
different skill set, how wemanage ourselves, and how we
manage our relationships, how weinteract with people, that's
very different from IQ, someonewho's very smart, IQ wise, can
be not so good at emotionalintelligence. And it turns out
(50:43):
that, for example, when youthink about a profession, being
a computer programmer, or beinga lawyer, being a doctor, IQ
skills are very important to getinto the game. They're what's
called thresholds. But onceyou're in the game, you're
competing with people who areabout as smart as you are.
(51:05):
That's where IQ falls away is apredictor of who's going to be
outstanding, who will be aleader who will be the best
performer and emotionalintelligence takes over there
was a study done, for example ofengineers, where they're asked
to rate each other on how theydo as engineers, and it turned
out their rating oneffectiveness as engineers had
(51:29):
nothing to do with their IQ,very highly related to their
emotional intelligence. Can youpersuade people can you listen,
can you communicate? Can youhandle your own emotions, all of
those things make yououtstanding, and they have
little or nothing to do withyour IQ. They have everything to
do with emotional intelligence.
Kerry Seed (52:05):
And that's our show.
Special thanks to Rene and Vera,whose voices you heard at the
top of the show and to ourguest, George coal reserves. You
can find more about George thebooks he's written and the
courses he teaches at Georgecoal reserve.com and at KLA dot
Swiss. We also have the links inthe show notes on our website,
first person plural.com. Whileyou're there, you can check out
(52:28):
guest BIOS transcripts andresources mentioned in today's
episode. You can also follow uson Instagram at keyset media. If
you enjoyed our discussion withGeorge colorizer. Check out some
of our past interviews. Ourseries about conflict management
includes this episode, and theepisodes with Aaron Wolf and
Karen Ziggler. None of thiswould be possible without our
(52:51):
incredible team. Our hosts areDaniel Goleman, Hanuman Goleman
and Elizabeth Solomon. BryantJohnson creates the beautiful
art you see with each episode.
Our audio editor is MichelleZipkin. Serena Cardin does
marketing Our music is by AmberO'Hara and ghosts beats and I'm
curious seed. This podcast issponsored by Keystep media, your
(53:14):
source for personal andprofessional development
materials focused onmindfulness, leadership and
emotional intelligence. Nexttime, we'll discuss the
pandemic's effect on children'semotional balance with New York
Times correspondent Claire KaneMiller. Until then, take care of
yourself and we'll talk soon
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