June 14, 2022 • 52 mins
At the height of the AIDS epidemic, Karen Ziegler was senior pastor of an LGBTQ church in Greenwich Village. In this interview she shares how she led her congregation through a period of intense conflict.
Karen led the church from 1978-1988 and then was a full-time organizer for several years in the AIDS community before becoming a nurse. Since retiring from work as a Nurse Practitioner 6 years ago she has been as a volunteer activist, serving as lead organizer for Democracy Out Loud Indivisible. She also works with the Poor People's Campaign: A National Call for Moral Revival and several other organizations. Having meditated on her own since 1979, she finally found a teacher in 1989 and since then has studied with teachers of vedic trantra, Mindfulness Based Stress Reduction (MBSR) Insight Meditation, plant medicine, and Tibetan Buddhism. She holds an MDiv from Union Theological Seminary, DMin from New York Theological Seminary, and an MSN from Duke University. Since 1917 Lama Rod Owens has been her primary teacher.
Daniel Goleman talks about his Emotional Intelligence Courses, available at danielgolemanemotionalintelligence.com
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Unknown (00:13):
Hi, I'm here with Cora who's my daughter. She's nine,
say hi, hello, hello. And thisweek, we're continuing our
series on conflict management.
Of course, everyone hasconflicts in their lives. And
our guest today is KarenZiegler. And Cora, way back
before you were born, Karen wasthe minister of a church. And
(00:37):
the Minister of a church has tomake a lot of decisions. Some
people will like thosedecisions, some people won't,
but she's going to tell thestory of a decision she made
that was unpopular with a lot ofpeople.
Now, I know I make a lot ofdecisions that affect you
have ever made a decision thatyou didn't like,
(01:01):
sometimes you make me go to bedtoo early, and you wake me up
too early, and I'm reallysleepy.
Interesting.
So it seems to me like thosethings might be related. Like if
you went to bed earlier, youwould be less sleepy. Do you
agree?
Sometimes, but usually, if I goto sleep longer makes me more
(01:23):
sleep because I want to keepsleeping.
Oh, interesting.
So when I make a decree likethat, and say, Okay, you have to
go to bed now. How does it makeyou feel? And what do you do
about it? Sometimes, I'm finewith that. And sometimes I'm
angry and frustrated andannoyed. And it's a little sad.
(01:50):
Yeah, I can remember beingfrustrated with my parents about
the same types of things. Abouta lot of people have gone
through that.
But that probably doesn't makeit any better.
Is there anything you'd like totell me about how you feel or
how you'd like to do thingsdifferently in the future? No.
(02:12):
Nothing?
Will even if you can't think ofanything right now, I hope that
we'll just keep talking becauseI'm sure we'll have lots of
conflicts in the future. Becausewe love each other and we're in
the same family and that's whathappens. So
let's just keep talking aboutOkay.
Okay. Okay.
(02:33):
Well, that's it from Korea and Istay tuned for Karen Ziggler.
Welcome to first person plural,emotional intelligence and
beyond. I'm Elizabeth Solomon.
I'm hanuman Goleman. And I'mDaniel Goleman. Today we're
(02:55):
continuing with the theme ofconflict management. In our last
episode, I talked with Erin wolfabout his work facilitating
dialogue over big issues such asfaith than water rights. We
touched on how systems can bedesigned for healing. Speaking
of faith, our guest today isKaren Ziggler. At the height of
(03:17):
the AIDS epidemic, Karen was thesenior pastor of an LGBTQ plus
church in Greenwich Village, NewYork. So for some years, well,
forever, the LGBTQ community hadbeen battling for our lives
really fighting for our lives.
Stonewall was in 1968, rightdown the street. And in 1980,
(03:41):
about the time that RonaldReagan got elected, there was a
huge right wing attack on ourcommunity, a Anita Bryant, some
people are old enough toremember a neat O'Brien dinner
campaign against LGBTQ people.
So meanwhile, there were notmany places where gay people
could be or trans people couldbe there were bars, there were
(04:04):
bath houses, and there werechurches. So we were very much
feeling us against the world. Wehad very little money, people
were unemployed orunderemployed. Almost everybody.
And other churches in ourdenomination were under attack
and sometimes very physicalways. Clergy people were found
murdered one colleague in thetrunk of his car. Churches were
(04:28):
burned with people inside. Wehad bomb threats and our church.
So we were under siege as queerpeople, even in Greenwich
Village. And so that was thelarger context. And then, in the
early 80s, AIDS started, and atfirst nobody knew what it was it
was called gay Related ImmuneDeficiency, but people were
(04:51):
dying all around us before therewas ever a name for it. That
sounds overwhelming. And in themidst of all this
Karen was leading acongregation. On our show today,
she shares her very personalexperience with conflict
management dam. Some days, itfeels like conflicts are boiling
over Everywhere I look, youknow, I mean, particularly in
(05:14):
the wake of the politicalclimate, thinking about the mass
amounts of violence that havebeen occurring around the
country. You've researchedconflict management extensively.
And I'm wondering, what have youlearned that could help us
navigate these rough waters, Ireally liked the way Aaron wolf
in our previous podcast, found away for people to relate to each
(05:38):
other as people, not around theconflict. And I think it's a
very smart move, to connect withpeople in ways that they can
connect back not to focus onyour difference, but focus on
the similarity. I think that's avery positive first step,
thinking about today in theworld, and all of the different
(06:01):
factions that are just gettingmore and more toes in what's the
what's the word like, ingrainedin our own perspectives, and
it's so hard to see otherpeople's perspectives at this
point, because we're so sure ofours, as people move into more
sort of remote and digitalworlds and are doing a lot more
social interacting on socialmedia. Some of the downfalls of
(06:25):
that are that we tend to sort ofsurround ourselves with people
who share a like perspective ofus, there may be something like
an optical illusion going onhere, too, which is that we hear
about the differences. When Iwas a reporter at The New York
Times, we look for somethingthat would get people anxious,
worried fearful, that would bepage one, because the brain is
(06:49):
wired to remember the negativemore than the positive. And I
remember, there was a dialoguewith the Dalai Lama, where
psychologists Jerome Kaganpointed out the fact that on any
given day, so much more positivehappens between people the
negative, but we only hear aboutthe negative, we only hear about
(07:12):
the differences. We don't hearabout that looking the other
person in the eye and realizingyou're human too. And so
somehow, I think it would helpus, if we could call up and
spotlight the similarities, aswell as the differences instead
of mothering. It's us. You know,one of the things that we engage
(07:34):
in conversation with Karen aboutis just kind of like,
particularly for leaders theinevitability of conflict, like
there isn't really a way to leadwith entirely avoiding conflict,
right. And often, it's more aquestion of which conflict am I
going to engage in, that isgoing to serve the higher good,
the higher mission visionpurpose, one of the elements of
(07:54):
being a group, which is soimportant is that everyone feels
a sense that they belong here.
And one of the functions of aleader is in a sense to protect
the group from all of theunpleasant realities that
organizational life brings? Oris it to give the group some
skills and tools to be able tonavigate the inevitable
(08:15):
unpleasant realities that exist?
It's kind of a, it's aninteresting kind of existential
leadership question. I mean,it's in a way, a parenting
question, I asked myself all thetime, I'm like, to what degree
can I sort of protect you and,and sort of insulate you from
sort of the harsh realities? Andactually, where is it my job to
(08:35):
help you name what's happeningaround you, and figure out what
kind of internal resources youhave to navigate that, in fact,
you could argue that a leaderwho helps that happen is
protecting people.
Let's listen to the interviewwith Karen Ziegler to hear about
her experience of conflictmanagement.
So we're here to hear yourstory. Karen, I'd love to have
(08:59):
you kick us off with a littleonce upon a time, or just bring
us back in time. Sure, yeah. Asyou're talking, I'm realizing
that there are so many layers ofconflict in concentric circles
that were surrounding us andthat we were in. So once upon a
time, it was the mid 1980s. Itwas in Greenwich Village. And I
(09:22):
was the pastor of an LGBTQchurch, and I was doing a lot of
funerals. And people weregetting sick and sometimes dying
right away. And so by the timethis happened, we we did have a
name for this disease. But wefelt really besieged by the
responses of the families ofthose who are sick and dying by
(09:46):
city government, which wascompletely unresponsive. Of
course now we know that it waspartly because Ed Koch, the
mayor was gay, but we you know,we knew that now, but it wasn't
a help but I think it was partof why he couldn't come to grips
with this disease. That wasKilling gay men. And meanwhile,
what we were really seeing onthe state, local and federal
level was no help. Reagan nevermentioned the word AIDS until
(10:08):
his friend Rock Hudson becamevery publicly dead from AIDS. So
we were also having that layerof conflict. And I feel like our
community really rose to thatoccasion, that was the time of
act up just amazing. GayActivists, many of whom were
sick themselves, knew they weregoing to die, but they were kind
(10:32):
of delivering their bodies intohoping for something better
people would bring the ashes oftheir dead lovers and dump them
on the White House lawn. ACT UPwas a hugely, hugely creative,
angry, beautiful, activistorganization, my favorite thing
they ever did was put a giantcondom on Jesse Helms house,
(10:55):
right wing North CarolinaSenator, I mean, it was a very
large condom. And, you know,these activists were fighting
for things like making condomsavailable. And there was a very
famous protest in St. Patrick'sCathedral. So you know, that's a
really beautiful history to readabout. And in the middle of it,
we knew we were kind of we feltwe were in the center of the
(11:20):
universe, and that so manythings were meeting in people's
coming to terms with sexualitywith spirituality, we were kind
of inventing what church mightlook like, if people came from
all different denominations, andwere diverse in every way,
racially in terms of class,everything. And we were making,
making it up as we went along. Iwas 24 years old, when I became
(11:43):
pastor of that church. And thepeople who became my staff were
also very young, some of themeven younger than I was. Yeah,
kind of reminds me of some ofthese stories like The Hobbit,
you know, we were just kind ofwandering around, not sure what
we were doing. I mean, I justremember never feeling like I
knew how to do what I was doing.
(12:05):
But there was a lot of lovebetween us, there was a
tremendous faith. We truly knewand preached that God loved us.
And our purpose was reallybringing healing to ourselves
and each other. And this was atime when gay men with AIDS,
were getting pamphlets fromtheir mother tracks that said,
(12:30):
You're going to hell, and youdeserve to die because you're
gay. So that was the kind ofwork that we did, by speaking to
people privately by laying onhands and praying for each
other. We really understood thathealing can happen even as
people are dying, that healingcan be a communal endeavor. And
(12:50):
we came up with rituals, likethe Stations of the Cross,
anyone who's Catholicunderstands the Stations of the
Cross, we're all the placeswhere Jesus was tortured on his
way to his death. And we wouldwalk around Greenwich Village,
and the places of the Stationsof the Cross were places where
queer people had been murdered.
So we were really embodying inevery way we could, what it
(13:11):
meant to be people of faith,surrounded by these two great
conflicts, and many of us werefighting for our lives, not me,
but many of the men wereliterally fighting for their
lives. And so meanwhile, youknow, churches, it seems to me
are especially prone toconflict.
(13:34):
And I think churches haveoppressed people can act out our
trauma on each other it reallyeasily we didn't have any
understanding of trauma. Youknow, we were young, and it was
1985 or something. So our churchin particular had kind of chewed
up its first couple of pastors.
It wasn't a very old church, butit had already gone through a
number of pastors very quickly.
(13:56):
So I think I always felt alittle bit worried that I was
going to be next. But I feltcalled to this church and I felt
really connected to God. Iprayed a lot and meditated a
lot. And, you know, I think itwas probably at about this time
that I was begging God to bereleased from my calling to this
(14:20):
church. And the answer that Iwould get is like, No,
you know, you are a mess, butyou're the best I've got right
now. You need to just hang inthere. You know, just hanging in
there is enough. You know, so Idid. Um, meanwhile, we had a
staff a paid staff of, I think,just two other people. I don't
(14:41):
think we paid our churchsecretaries. I think they were
all volunteer. So I had anassistant and associate pastor,
I was senior pastor, and theywere both about my age, and they
were very different. Myassociate pastor was a gay man.
Very brilliant. He's stillpastoring a
After all these years, he had areal gift for programming for
(15:06):
preaching for everything, exceptadministration, he was maybe a
bigger mess than I was in thatarea. And then there was another
assistant pastor who was veryRoman Catholic, she had really
wanted to be a Roman Catholicpriest. And she was very, very,
in that way of thinking. But shewas a good administrator,
(15:26):
because unlike the rest of us,she had actually learned how to
be an administrator in seminary,she had gone to Roman Catholic
seminary, just, they justcouldn't ordain her. And the
other thing that she was doingwas she was administrating a
very large food pantry. It upsetthe neighbors, but it fed a lot
of people. And it really helpedus to feel like we were doing
(15:51):
the work that a church needed todo. Not that the church didn't
need to do the other stuff. Andthe other stuff we were doing
was worship services that peoplereally experienced as very
healing, communal, powerfulevents. And also some
programming that my associatehad developed around men and
(16:13):
women alike, he developed thismen's program, which then the
women replicated to some extent.
And this really grew the church,and the church was already very
lopsided. It was also alreadymostly done. But I think also
because of AIDS, and thereweren't a lot of places to go
for the gay community. Thisreally drew a lot of men. And so
(16:37):
this was an era of lesbian,feminist separatism. When aids
happened and our friends startedto die and be sick and die, we
stepped up and started takingcare of them. And that broke
something that kind of nevercame back, which was kind of a
lesbian, feminist separatism.
But we still had a powerfulresentment, I think about
(16:59):
feeling like such a minority inthe church. Would you mind
describing lesbian, feministseparatism? Sure, in the 70s,
there were really powerfultheological writers like Mary
Daly, rosemary, Ruth, or whojust died, who talked about the
patriarchal aspects of thechurch.
(17:25):
This was happening also, in manyareas of the culture, like, many
lesbians would go to theMichigan Women's Music Festival,
which was closed not only tomen, but also trans men and even
boy children after a certain ageso. So we were kind of trying to
figure out what would it be likenot to live in a patriarchal
culture? How can we change ourlanguage and our worship, so
(17:51):
that we're not worshipping men?
How can we experience our ownimminence, our own sense of God
within us?
Mary Daly, one of the thingsthat she said that I always
loved was when God is a man, theman is God. And so we were very,
and actually the men werelargely helping us with this. We
(18:12):
were really changing ourlanguage, we did not talk about
God and Father, you know, our,our jokey way of talking about
the Trinity, not in worship wastwo boys and a bird. So we had
to change how we talked aboutGod, we had to talk about God in
neutral languages or a mother orfather, we had to talk about how
we talked about Jesus, how wetalked about the Kingdom of God,
(18:35):
and some of the men includingespecially our associate pastor,
were really creative atrewriting the hymnal, they
rewrote the entire hymnal. But,you know, it was really a time
of great creativity, trying toimagine a world that was not
patriarchal, trying to createthat world within our own
community. That's great. That'sreally important context for
(18:57):
this. Thank you. So we got tothe point where three of us were
paid staff, and we had no money.
We were struggling to pay rentin New York City.
That's a whole nother story. Wereally couldn't pay three staff
people. And I was not feelingthat I was released from my call
(19:18):
to be there.
So it seemed to me, number one,that we needed to only have two
paid staff people. And alsonumber two, I felt that who ever
stayed, would be the next pastorof the church. I just had a
sense of that because both ofthese people had very powerful
(19:40):
ministries, and I knew theywould want to stay. So when my
associate pastors contract wasup for renewal, I decided not to
renew his contract, which wasthe same really as firing him.
I really chose to intensify aconflict that was already going
on. And my rereasoning for that was that he
was by far, in my mind the mostgifted, and he would have no
(20:04):
trouble finding his own church.
And I felt a little bit like themother bird, kicking the baby
bird out of the nest because heclearly could fly. I also knew
that the men would be okay, thatthey would continue the
programming that he started. ButI didn't think the food pantry
(20:28):
would continue without theassistant pastor. Plus, he was
just as much of a disaster as anadministrator as I was. So, you
know, later I, I realized it waskind of like Sophie's Choice,
you know, when the when themother is forced to choose
between her two children,because I, you know, I love them
both very much. We weresiblings, really, but I knew it
(20:51):
was on me to make that kind ofdecision. I could have just
resigned and let them fight itout. But I didn't feel free to
do that. Yeah. Can you talkabout that a little bit. Karen,
what are the emotions that arosefor you, as you were trying to
make that decision? I knew thatI had to be absolutely certain
that it was the right thing forthe church. I felt it was the
(21:14):
the right thing for them. But Ihad to be absolutely certain.
And so, you know, I prayed aboutthat a lot. I meditated. I
prayed about it a lot until Igot to a place where I just felt
like I could, that I could facethe fire, really, and not waver
in that. And it was, it wasawful. You know, I felt like I
(21:36):
was being flayed. It was reallyawful. And I had to be really
sure. But I was sure. You know,I really was sure. And so I just
remember having to keep sayingto people individually and in
front of the congregationalmeeting, just keep saying I
believe this is the best thingfor the church. This is really
(22:00):
hard. It's really hard for me toand I think it's necessary.
Yeah, I don't remember a wholelot about what else I would have
said, but I do remember that Ihad to reach very deep into my
own inner conviction that I hadcome to as I was making that
choice. Yeah, I hear so much inthere. I mean, I hear
(22:20):
prioritizing the largercommunity, right over any one
individual, I hear, like reallygoing deep within and sort of
seeking counsel and taking sometime with that decision, so that
by the time you arrive there,you can execute that with
confidence. And I also just hearthis peace around long term
(22:41):
thinking, right, and the manyways that we have to sort of
hold the larger picture or thelarger vision or the larger
strategy, and make immediatedecisions that are incredibly
disruptive. And I'm curious, youknow, when you communicated this
decision to let go of one ofyour colleagues, and continue on
(23:01):
collaborating with the other,how you communicated that, and
what those conversations werelike, I have to be honest with
you, I don't remember tellingeither one of them. I mean, I
would have had to tell them, butI don't remember, I just
rememberhaving to explain it to other
people, you know, the Board ofDirectors, the congregation, I
(23:21):
just remember having to justkeep returning to the feeling
within myself, that no matterwhat happened, I was doing what
I thought was right. What you'resaying is so beautiful around
conflict management, because forme, what it points to is the
deep importance of us of havinga North Star, something inside
(23:44):
us that we really believe thatwe that we know is true inside
us so that it helps us toweather the storm. It's that
rock that we can hold to in themidst of a great storm. Yeah,
and I think by then I had a lotof practice. You know, I think
just being a queer person raisedin the church, drove me to that
(24:08):
place very early on, of havingto trust myself above what
people were telling me. And thenI think, just holding the space
in that church, as the pastorthrough a lot of trauma, I had
to be connected to somethingthat could hold that trauma for
(24:30):
myself and to all of us. So Ithink by the time I went through
that particular fire, I was kindof ready. But I think that kind
of standing in one's ownconviction does take a lot of
practice. You know, practice intelling the truth, even when
it's difficult to practice in,going inside and checking out
(24:53):
one's true feelings andperceptions. So fortunately, I
think that Ihad so much practice that it
helped. So much of conflict isgrief and the many ways grief
manifests itself often in theform of rage. And so I love what
you're talking about here, whichis being able to say, Okay, I'm,
I'm opening up this decision, orI'm igniting this conversation,
(25:16):
and I know there's going to begrief. And I have the
wherewithal to be with people intheir grief as I tell them
something that is, you know, notgoing to make them happy, quote,
unquote. Yeah. Well, it was atime of such grief to. So it was
very painful to add on topeople's grief, you know,
especially the grief of the men,because many of them were sick,
or terrified. I think as much asmany of us hate conflict, we are
(25:40):
grateful for leaders whodemonstrate the ability to make
hard decisions and to make thosehard decisions, considering the
larger context. And and thegreater good of the group. I had
a relationship with this guy,you know, he was a friend,
which was the most difficultaspect of it. How did you to
(26:03):
navigate that? I think it wasdifficult for a while, we're
still really good friends. Butit was difficult for a while,
but not long. You know, within acouple of years, I visited him
at his new church. I certainlygave him a really great
recommendation. And he got agreat church, much better than
(26:24):
ours in a lot of ways. I mean,it was the perfect thing.
That was really confirming forme, the idea that he was ready
to move on and there was a placefor him, that would be better
for him. And he was neededthere. And he did a great job
there. Yeah, I think thedisruption in our relationship
was brief, because I think thathe understood a little bit about
(26:46):
why it was necessary, eventhough it was hard. I think this
is like kind of one of the mostheartbreaking things that's
happening right now in our kindof culture, where so many things
are divided, is that people whoactually share common interests
share common values are at theiressence wanting the same thing,
(27:07):
are split apart by kind oflesser smaller issues that
arise. So there are a fewthreads of of conflict, there's
this larger context of queerpeople being oppressed, that was
happening and still ishappening, then there's this
(27:28):
transition in church leadershipthat you were aware of, you were
on your way out eventually. Andyou knew that whoever you kept,
whichever assistant pastor youkept there would most likely be
elected as the next pastor ofthat church. One of them was a
(27:51):
beloved pastor in your church,who was a man, and was doing
great work with men and women,but really, really supporting
the men in the church. Andanother one was a woman who had
an important food pantry thatwas helping the community.
(28:14):
And you were also aware of thisgreater transition away from
patriarchy. You were a part ofstewarding in this context. Oh,
wait, there is one more, whichyou haven't mentioned. And I'd
love if you if you feel good totalk about it, your relationship
with the woman who you didn'tfire. Our relationship was kind
(28:40):
of stable at this point. I dothink and now that I consider it
that I really wanted the nextpastor of that church to be a
woman. Because there were veryfew women pastors in those days.
There were virtually no womenpastors in Manhattan.
And no women pastors of largechurches in our denomination, of
(29:04):
course, you know, ourdenomination was very tiny. But
at that time, there were noteven that many women in seminary
was just the first wave of womenin seminary. And then once we
graduated, we tended to beassistants very rarely senior
pastors of major churches, so SoI think also that I really
(29:25):
wanted that next pastor to be awoman. Yeah, so later, our
relationship became veryconflictual, but not yet, but
there was a lot of conflicts allover the place. Because we all
came from these differenttheological points of view, and
some were very Evan Jellicle,and some were steeped in
(29:46):
feminist theology and liberationtheology. I just remember that
no matter what I preached about,there would be people who
thought I was going too far theother way, like, I remember this
one sermon, it was the same. Ipreached one sermon and got two
different comments. And one was,you never talk about Jesus, why
don't you talk about Jesus? Andthe other was, all you ever do
(30:09):
is talk about Jesus. Why do youdo that? You know, and it was
the same sermon so so it kind ofillustrated to me, like I just
needed to keep doing what I wasdoing and couldn't please
everybody. I'm curious if youfeel like maybe there was even
more theological conflict,because you were one of the only
queer places of worship. Butwhen there's only one
institution that serving anentire community, that's a
(30:33):
really big deal, and a reallybig kind of responsibility for
you to try and sort of meet theneeds of everyone within that
community. Yeah, that was thatwas huge. And, you know, the
founder of our denomination,Troy Perry was a Pentecostal
minister. And, you know,Pentecostals are led by the
Spirit, it really had to besomeone who could say, oh, the
(30:54):
Spirit told me to start thischurch, because, you know, a
higher, you know, anEpiscopalian or Catholic priests
could not have done it, youknow, he would have or she would
have been defrocked,immediately. So. So that's
absolutely on target. Because inthe denomination, there was a
huge number of Evan Jelliclepeople, fundamentalist people.
(31:16):
And that was really the roots ofthe church. So there was also
always a class conflict goingon. Because a lot of these
Pentecostal and evangelicalpastors had never been to
seminary. And those of us whohad managed I went to a very
good seminary, and other people,especially in the northeast,
did, too. And so you know, wealso had this whole class
(31:36):
conflict going on between thefundamentalists, and those of us
who had been exposed toliberation theology, feminist
theology, and even reallyBiblical studies. So that was
all going on in the church, aswell as in the denomination. And
that was wild, really, that waswild, we would arrive at our
(31:57):
district conferences in generalconferences, and we, we would
fight it out, you know, aboutinclusive language, people
didn't want the language tochange. And some of us felt like
that was just absolutelyessential. And so also in the
church, yes, up through allthose years, there were people
who, who really had troublegetting on board with the ways
(32:19):
that we were interpreting theBible.
And yeah, because we had noplace else to go. I mean, that
was the gift and the curse. Ithink it's a bigger gift and a
curse though because, you know,we ended up with these very rich
worship services, we we wouldhave communion every week for
the Catholics, but then we'dsing all these blood hymns, you
(32:39):
know, all these Evan Jelliclehams that were so campy and so
much fun to sing, you know, andthere really was quite a, quite
a movement of the Holy Spirit aswell as the rituals of
Catholicism. You remember any ofthe campy hymns could share with
us?
power in the blood? Does anybodyknow power in the blood? How's
(33:03):
it go? That's a real campy one.
But I can't remember the firstline. Yeah, the hymns were the
hymns were really wonderful.
If at the end, we would sing,would you be free from the
burden of sin? Yes, yes. Wouldyou be free from the burden of
(33:23):
sin, there's power in the bloodpower in the blood, you know,
and they were really very campy.
And for those of us who, like Iwas raised Presbyterian, so they
were very foreign to me. AndI've never really been into the
blood of Jesus at all. But formany people, you know, those
kinds of hymns were reallyimportant. That was one really
cool thing was we learned tocherish each other's traditions.
(33:44):
That was really beautiful. I'mjust hearing to a lot about
like, the importance of song,the importance of ritual, right,
that even within these sort ofconcentric circles of conflict,
there are these things aroundwhich everyone comes together
and kind of unites and bonds andI'm wondering, you know, as
(34:04):
you're sitting there singingthese wonderful campy hymns
together, what it felt like inthat moment, right, when you're
not sort of debating aboutanything, but you're all just
coming together in that fashion.
Yeah, it was really beautiful.
You know, at the at the end ofthe service, well, you know,
communion was always verypowerful because we celebrated
(34:27):
an open communion. So anyone whojust walked in the church could
take communion. And I justremember that we always would
hold people and pray with them.
After we serve them communion,people would come up in groups
and then we would individuallyhold people or sometimes friends
or lovers would take communiontogether. And so we would, you
(34:51):
know, lay on hands and pray forpeople and they would sometimes
tell us what specifically theywanted to pray for. So, you
know, for people whocame from a sacramental
tradition, like Catholicism, whohad been told that they were
sinners and going to hell andcertainly could never take
communion. And, you know, don'tset foot in the church again, to
be able to come and not onlytake communion, but also be
(35:14):
prayed for in that way with suchlove, you know, and touch and
caring presence, you know, thatkind of presence really heals
trauma. And so, so often peoplewould just weep. And I know that
what we were doing very oftenwas just healing people in a way
that allowed them to moveforward in a whole different
(35:37):
way, you know, not carrying theburden of shame and of rejection
from God, you know,understanding that that
connection had never been brokenfor them with God. And then the
end of the service, I remember,we would always go all the way
around the perimeter of thechurch and hold hands and sing,
(35:57):
there's a sweet, sweet spirit inthis place. And there was there
really was, how does that sound?
That sound goes, there's asweet, sweet speed spirit in
this plane.
(36:18):
And I know that it's the spirit.
There are sweet hair expressionexpressions on each face. And I
know they feel the spirit.
(36:46):
Sweet, tone.
Sweet.
See right here withfilling us with your.
(37:08):
For this blessing, we lift ourhearts to the without a doubt,
we'll know that we have beenrenewed, when we shall leave
this place. Thank you.
One thing that I am really drawnto about this story is that this
(37:33):
was a community that was facingconflict, both externally and
internally. And yet, due to thenature of the community, you
stayed together and faced ittogether. And that feels like
something that we're missing atlarge in society today, where we
(37:55):
have plenty of conflict, andthen we go back to our small
bubble, and fester in conflictinstead of sitting next to
somebody else in a pew andsinging with them, which is a
totally different, it expandsthe human relationship so that
we're not just in conflict withthis person. We're also human
(38:17):
with this person in the world.
And that feels so precious tome, that community part of it,
and it was a bubble. It was abubble. I'm not sure that
homophobic person would havebeen comfortable there. I know
they wouldn't have been, youknow? Yeah, I mean, this, this,
to me, what you're saying kindof speaks to this idea of, for
(38:38):
me boundaries. You know, I justcame up with this with an
acquaintance who made anincredibly homophobic remark.
And I realized, I can't be withthis person. So you know, I
think this both sides ism, hasthe limit in that when the other
side is actually denying myhumanity. I don't want to sing
(38:59):
hymns with them. That's where Idraw the line. I think you bring
up such a beautiful point, whichis like the distinct difference
between having a boundary andsaying no, and being in a state
of conflict. And it makes methink that actually those two
things are conflated. Whenthey're not the same thing,
(39:20):
right? Having a boundary can bean act of self respect, and an
act of dignity. And doesn'tactually have to take on the
aggression or violence that wetypically associate conflict
with. And that feels likesomething that I can even feel
it feel the difference in mybody between like a boundary
kind of erected with dignity anda boundary erected from a place
(39:43):
of being kind of violently antisomething else. Yeah. I love
that. You just said that. Whatare you thinking, Karen? Well, I
guess I feel like this is areally important question for us
now in this country, too.
You know, what, what are thevalues that we can agree on? You
(40:03):
know, we've had hundreds of antigay and anti trans bills passed
nationwide, one just is probablyon the verge of getting passed
here in North Carolina. Andthere is no way that I can
imagine that any of them areokay, you know, we can't co
exist if some of us are notallowed to exist.
(40:27):
You know, I'm endlesslydisappointed that everyone can't
draw that line, you know,because it is so true. You know,
they came for what was it, theimmigrants and I said nothing.
And then they came for the,whatever it was, and they said
nothing. And then there's justnobody left. And I'm feeling a
sense of deja vu now, sinceTrump was elected, like when,
(40:51):
when Reagan was elected, therewas such a sharp turn toward
economic injustice that has justcontinued so quickly. And right
wing violence. This is a verysimilar time, in many ways, but
on steroids. And so once again,it feels like there's a really
pretty small group of peopleactually fighting for justice
(41:12):
for, for love, really, you know,and just like when people were
dying of AIDS, most people don'tseem to be involved. I'm
terrified of that. I'm terrifiedthat we had a 19% voter turnout
rate in Durham, North Carolina,you know, in the primary
election, I'm terrified that 1/3of Americans didn't vote in the
(41:36):
last presidential election. AndI'm terrified of the
disinformation andmisinformation campaign by one
of our political parties, whichmay mean that we're just going
to keep moving into fascismreally quickly. So what what is
going to stop that, I think, isby not just people of color, not
just queer people making theboundary, not just poor people,
(41:59):
but everyone saying, this is notthe country I want, and jumping
in. Karen, I was just wondering,you know, as kind of, I'm going
to call you like one of our oneof my queer elders, who's been a
part of the LGBTQ movement forso many decades.
How you where you see themovement now in terms of
(42:21):
conflict, not just with theouter world, the obvious things
like don't say, gay bill, andall of the, you know, anti trans
policies that are going around,but conflict within the
movement. Because I've beenthinking a lot about some real
kind of internal conflictswithin the LGBT community
between kind of, you know,people who've been around for a
(42:44):
long time, and the youngergeneration and differences in
language and even somedisagreement around the use of
the word queer, you know, a lotof people feeling like, oh,
queer is a word that was usedagainst us, how dare you adopt
it and bring it into the sort ofdominant vocabulary? And I'm
just wondering kind of what anyreflections or observations you
have on that, and what yourunderstanding of that is, or how
(43:06):
you make sense of that? Yeah, itright now, I work in an activist
community that's mostlystraight. I'm not really
connected to the gay communityin many ways. And I, you know, I
know that there are generationalconflicts and every activist
movement, and that's just gonnahappen. You know, I certainly
(43:27):
love what younger LGBTQ peopleare doing with gender. You know,
it's making us really consciousof that. I love that. Yeah,
personally, I really like theword queer, it has a long
history. And that's why I holdto it. You know, I feel like
right now, we are in as dire atime in a different way, you
(43:48):
know, because of the climatecrisis, because of the crisis of
fascism. Destruction of ourdemocracy, like it is just as
perilous a time, certainly forthe next generation, as it was
for those men with AIDS, whoknew they were going to die very
soon. And so I hope that enoughpeople can wake up to the
(44:11):
urgency of the situation and dowhat they can to preserve
democracy, preserve the planet,stop the attacks on vulnerable
populations. You know, it's likean all hands on deck moment, you
know, and I think that we knewthat and, and we rose to that
occasion, largely. And so Ithink that right now, there are
(44:35):
a lot of people doing what theycan. I hope there are more than
I can see, you know, and I and Ihope that there aren't too many
gay people who are lulled byfeeling like these attacks
aren't going to touch them. Solet's let's get the end of the
story. You you had to make adecision about this associate an
(44:58):
assistant pastor one ofthat you were going to let go,
which means the other one wasgoing to stay on and most likely
become pastor when you leave.
And she did. And she becamepastor when I left, and she did
a fine job, that food pantrycontinued. Now there's a
shelter. They bought a church inManhattan. I have no idea how
(45:21):
they managed to do that. Yeah,she's still there. Both of them
are still pastoring them. Yes,yes.
And when you look back on itall, do you have any general
reflections that you learnedthat you'd like to share from
that experience? You know, Ithink that was the right thing
to do. But it was only borne outby history. Who knows, maybe
(45:44):
everything would have turned outgreat. If I had done something
different. I don't know what Ishould have done. But I'm mostly
really grateful for that time. Iwas pastor of that church for 10
years, and really, reallygrateful. And then when I left,
I've never really looked back,either. So when were you
relieved of your service? 1988.
So it's 1978 to 1988. That's agood chunk. Yeah, yeah, I was 35
(46:08):
When I left, and then I workedin the AIDS community for the
next five years. Thank you somuch, Karen, for telling us your
story. And for spending timewith us. It's such a pleasure to
see you. You're welcome. It wasreally a joy to talk to you.
Thank you, Karen. Thank you.
(46:36):
Thanks for listening to ourinterview with Karen Ziggler. If
you enjoyed this episode, pleaseshare it with your friends. And
tune in next time when we'lltalk with author and former
hostage negotiator George coalreserve, about lessons he
learned in moments of crisis.
Before we go, it's time for AskDan.
(47:00):
Have you ever wanted to ask DanGoleman anything about emotional
intelligence, mindfulnessmeditation or leadership or
maybe purpose or life ingeneral? If you've got
questions, Dan has answerssubmit your question via
voicemail at Keystepmedia.com/ask. Dan, your
(47:21):
question could be selected andfeatured on an upcoming episode.
This week's question is aboutthe relationship between empathy
and emotional intelligence. Dan,I've really enjoyed the series
on conflict management. Andyou've mentioned a couple of
times how empathy can be key innavigating conflict. I'm
wondering, What can I do withinmyself to be a more empathetic
person? I think it helps at thestart to realize that there are
(47:47):
different kinds of empathy. Oneis cognitive empathy, where you
understand how the other personthinks, you don't just get stuck
in your own story. But youlisten for theirs. And you try
to understand the terms thatthey use themselves to explain
the world to themselves. This iscalled their mental models. This
(48:10):
helps you be a bettercommunicator with the other
person. It also helps you withcertain kinds of empathy, where
you can say I see your point ofview when actually being in the
second kind is emotionalempathy, where you feel what the
other person feels. And thishappens because of the social
(48:30):
brain circuitry where brain tobrain we form a silent and
visible instantaneous link withthe other person's brain and
emotions pass back and forththrough that link. This is why
emotions are so contagious, butit helps you empathize, because
you not only know how the personthinks but how they feel. And
(48:51):
then the third kind of empathy,which is very different is
feeling that you care aboutfeeling a sense of concern. Each
of these kinds of empathy isbased in different brain
circuitry. And the concern isbased in the circuitry that is
the same as a parent's love fora child. So you're really deeply
(49:12):
caring about the other personyou want what's best for them.
And I think that the more youcan let the person know that
this is motivating you, I thinkthe easier it will be to heal
the riftthat's our show Special thanks
(49:33):
to Cora, whose voice you heardat the top of the show and to
our guest Karen Ziggler. Shewrites a newsletter about her
work as an activist, you couldsign up at Tiny letter.com/karen
Zig, that last part is KaRENZIG. That's tiny
letter.com/karen zyk. We alsohave the link in our show notes
(49:55):
on our website at first personplural.com
While you're there, you cancheck out our guest BIOS
transcripts and resourcesmentioned in today's episode.
You can also follow us onInstagram at Keystep media. If
you enjoyed our discussion withKaren Ziggler. Check out some of
our past interviews. I like theepisodes with Peter haberle and
Dan Harris. None of this wouldbe possible without our
(50:18):
incredible team. Our hosts areDaniel Goleman, Hanuman Goleman
and Elizabeth Solomon. BrianJohnson creates the beautiful
art you see with each episode.
Our audio editor is MichelleZipkin Zarina Cardin does
marketing. Our music is by AmbroHader and goes beats and I'm
Carrie see.
This podcast is sponsored byKeystep media, your source for
(50:41):
personal and professionaldevelopment materials focused on
mindfulness, leadership andemotional intelligence. Next
time we'll dive even deeper intoconflict management with our
guest, former hostage negotiatorGeorge colorizer. Until then,
take care of yourself and we'lltalk soon
Hi, I'm here with Cora who's my daughter. She's nine,
say hi, hello, hello. And thisweek, we're continuing our
series on conflict management.
Of course, everyone hasconflicts in their lives. And
our guest today is KarenZiegler. And Cora, way back
before you were born, Karen wasthe minister of a church. And
(00:37):
the Minister of a church has tomake a lot of decisions. Some
people will like thosedecisions, some people won't,
but she's going to tell thestory of a decision she made
that was unpopular with a lot ofpeople.
Now, I know I make a lot ofdecisions that affect you
have ever made a decision thatyou didn't like,
(01:01):
sometimes you make me go to bedtoo early, and you wake me up
too early, and I'm reallysleepy.
Interesting.
So it seems to me like thosethings might be related. Like if
you went to bed earlier, youwould be less sleepy. Do you
agree?
Sometimes, but usually, if I goto sleep longer makes me more
(01:23):
sleep because I want to keepsleeping.
Oh, interesting.
So when I make a decree likethat, and say, Okay, you have to
go to bed now. How does it makeyou feel? And what do you do
about it? Sometimes, I'm finewith that. And sometimes I'm
angry and frustrated andannoyed. And it's a little sad.
(01:50):
Yeah, I can remember beingfrustrated with my parents about
the same types of things. Abouta lot of people have gone
through that.
But that probably doesn't makeit any better.
Is there anything you'd like totell me about how you feel or
how you'd like to do thingsdifferently in the future? No.
(02:12):
Nothing?
Will even if you can't think ofanything right now, I hope that
we'll just keep talking becauseI'm sure we'll have lots of
conflicts in the future. Becausewe love each other and we're in
the same family and that's whathappens. So
let's just keep talking aboutOkay.
Okay. Okay.
(02:33):
Well, that's it from Korea and Istay tuned for Karen Ziggler.
Welcome to first person plural,emotional intelligence and
beyond. I'm Elizabeth Solomon.
I'm hanuman Goleman. And I'mDaniel Goleman. Today we're
(02:55):
continuing with the theme ofconflict management. In our last
episode, I talked with Erin wolfabout his work facilitating
dialogue over big issues such asfaith than water rights. We
touched on how systems can bedesigned for healing. Speaking
of faith, our guest today isKaren Ziggler. At the height of
(03:17):
the AIDS epidemic, Karen was thesenior pastor of an LGBTQ plus
church in Greenwich Village, NewYork. So for some years, well,
forever, the LGBTQ community hadbeen battling for our lives
really fighting for our lives.
Stonewall was in 1968, rightdown the street. And in 1980,
(03:41):
about the time that RonaldReagan got elected, there was a
huge right wing attack on ourcommunity, a Anita Bryant, some
people are old enough toremember a neat O'Brien dinner
campaign against LGBTQ people.
So meanwhile, there were notmany places where gay people
could be or trans people couldbe there were bars, there were
(04:04):
bath houses, and there werechurches. So we were very much
feeling us against the world. Wehad very little money, people
were unemployed orunderemployed. Almost everybody.
And other churches in ourdenomination were under attack
and sometimes very physicalways. Clergy people were found
murdered one colleague in thetrunk of his car. Churches were
(04:28):
burned with people inside. Wehad bomb threats and our church.
So we were under siege as queerpeople, even in Greenwich
Village. And so that was thelarger context. And then, in the
early 80s, AIDS started, and atfirst nobody knew what it was it
was called gay Related ImmuneDeficiency, but people were
(04:51):
dying all around us before therewas ever a name for it. That
sounds overwhelming. And in themidst of all this
Karen was leading acongregation. On our show today,
she shares her very personalexperience with conflict
management dam. Some days, itfeels like conflicts are boiling
over Everywhere I look, youknow, I mean, particularly in
(05:14):
the wake of the politicalclimate, thinking about the mass
amounts of violence that havebeen occurring around the
country. You've researchedconflict management extensively.
And I'm wondering, what have youlearned that could help us
navigate these rough waters, Ireally liked the way Aaron wolf
in our previous podcast, found away for people to relate to each
(05:38):
other as people, not around theconflict. And I think it's a
very smart move, to connect withpeople in ways that they can
connect back not to focus onyour difference, but focus on
the similarity. I think that's avery positive first step,
thinking about today in theworld, and all of the different
(06:01):
factions that are just gettingmore and more toes in what's the
what's the word like, ingrainedin our own perspectives, and
it's so hard to see otherpeople's perspectives at this
point, because we're so sure ofours, as people move into more
sort of remote and digitalworlds and are doing a lot more
social interacting on socialmedia. Some of the downfalls of
(06:25):
that are that we tend to sort ofsurround ourselves with people
who share a like perspective ofus, there may be something like
an optical illusion going onhere, too, which is that we hear
about the differences. When Iwas a reporter at The New York
Times, we look for somethingthat would get people anxious,
worried fearful, that would bepage one, because the brain is
(06:49):
wired to remember the negativemore than the positive. And I
remember, there was a dialoguewith the Dalai Lama, where
psychologists Jerome Kaganpointed out the fact that on any
given day, so much more positivehappens between people the
negative, but we only hear aboutthe negative, we only hear about
(07:12):
the differences. We don't hearabout that looking the other
person in the eye and realizingyou're human too. And so
somehow, I think it would helpus, if we could call up and
spotlight the similarities, aswell as the differences instead
of mothering. It's us. You know,one of the things that we engage
(07:34):
in conversation with Karen aboutis just kind of like,
particularly for leaders theinevitability of conflict, like
there isn't really a way to leadwith entirely avoiding conflict,
right. And often, it's more aquestion of which conflict am I
going to engage in, that isgoing to serve the higher good,
the higher mission visionpurpose, one of the elements of
(07:54):
being a group, which is soimportant is that everyone feels
a sense that they belong here.
And one of the functions of aleader is in a sense to protect
the group from all of theunpleasant realities that
organizational life brings? Oris it to give the group some
skills and tools to be able tonavigate the inevitable
(08:15):
unpleasant realities that exist?
It's kind of a, it's aninteresting kind of existential
leadership question. I mean,it's in a way, a parenting
question, I asked myself all thetime, I'm like, to what degree
can I sort of protect you and,and sort of insulate you from
sort of the harsh realities? Andactually, where is it my job to
(08:35):
help you name what's happeningaround you, and figure out what
kind of internal resources youhave to navigate that, in fact,
you could argue that a leaderwho helps that happen is
protecting people.
Let's listen to the interviewwith Karen Ziegler to hear about
her experience of conflictmanagement.
So we're here to hear yourstory. Karen, I'd love to have
(08:59):
you kick us off with a littleonce upon a time, or just bring
us back in time. Sure, yeah. Asyou're talking, I'm realizing
that there are so many layers ofconflict in concentric circles
that were surrounding us andthat we were in. So once upon a
time, it was the mid 1980s. Itwas in Greenwich Village. And I
(09:22):
was the pastor of an LGBTQchurch, and I was doing a lot of
funerals. And people weregetting sick and sometimes dying
right away. And so by the timethis happened, we we did have a
name for this disease. But wefelt really besieged by the
responses of the families ofthose who are sick and dying by
(09:46):
city government, which wascompletely unresponsive. Of
course now we know that it waspartly because Ed Koch, the
mayor was gay, but we you know,we knew that now, but it wasn't
a help but I think it was partof why he couldn't come to grips
with this disease. That wasKilling gay men. And meanwhile,
what we were really seeing onthe state, local and federal
level was no help. Reagan nevermentioned the word AIDS until
(10:08):
his friend Rock Hudson becamevery publicly dead from AIDS. So
we were also having that layerof conflict. And I feel like our
community really rose to thatoccasion, that was the time of
act up just amazing. GayActivists, many of whom were
sick themselves, knew they weregoing to die, but they were kind
(10:32):
of delivering their bodies intohoping for something better
people would bring the ashes oftheir dead lovers and dump them
on the White House lawn. ACT UPwas a hugely, hugely creative,
angry, beautiful, activistorganization, my favorite thing
they ever did was put a giantcondom on Jesse Helms house,
(10:55):
right wing North CarolinaSenator, I mean, it was a very
large condom. And, you know,these activists were fighting
for things like making condomsavailable. And there was a very
famous protest in St. Patrick'sCathedral. So you know, that's a
really beautiful history to readabout. And in the middle of it,
we knew we were kind of we feltwe were in the center of the
(11:20):
universe, and that so manythings were meeting in people's
coming to terms with sexualitywith spirituality, we were kind
of inventing what church mightlook like, if people came from
all different denominations, andwere diverse in every way,
racially in terms of class,everything. And we were making,
making it up as we went along. Iwas 24 years old, when I became
(11:43):
pastor of that church. And thepeople who became my staff were
also very young, some of themeven younger than I was. Yeah,
kind of reminds me of some ofthese stories like The Hobbit,
you know, we were just kind ofwandering around, not sure what
we were doing. I mean, I justremember never feeling like I
knew how to do what I was doing.
(12:05):
But there was a lot of lovebetween us, there was a
tremendous faith. We truly knewand preached that God loved us.
And our purpose was reallybringing healing to ourselves
and each other. And this was atime when gay men with AIDS,
were getting pamphlets fromtheir mother tracks that said,
(12:30):
You're going to hell, and youdeserve to die because you're
gay. So that was the kind ofwork that we did, by speaking to
people privately by laying onhands and praying for each
other. We really understood thathealing can happen even as
people are dying, that healingcan be a communal endeavor. And
(12:50):
we came up with rituals, likethe Stations of the Cross,
anyone who's Catholicunderstands the Stations of the
Cross, we're all the placeswhere Jesus was tortured on his
way to his death. And we wouldwalk around Greenwich Village,
and the places of the Stationsof the Cross were places where
queer people had been murdered.
So we were really embodying inevery way we could, what it
(13:11):
meant to be people of faith,surrounded by these two great
conflicts, and many of us werefighting for our lives, not me,
but many of the men wereliterally fighting for their
lives. And so meanwhile, youknow, churches, it seems to me
are especially prone toconflict.
(13:34):
And I think churches haveoppressed people can act out our
trauma on each other it reallyeasily we didn't have any
understanding of trauma. Youknow, we were young, and it was
1985 or something. So our churchin particular had kind of chewed
up its first couple of pastors.
It wasn't a very old church, butit had already gone through a
number of pastors very quickly.
(13:56):
So I think I always felt alittle bit worried that I was
going to be next. But I feltcalled to this church and I felt
really connected to God. Iprayed a lot and meditated a
lot. And, you know, I think itwas probably at about this time
that I was begging God to bereleased from my calling to this
(14:20):
church. And the answer that Iwould get is like, No,
you know, you are a mess, butyou're the best I've got right
now. You need to just hang inthere. You know, just hanging in
there is enough. You know, so Idid. Um, meanwhile, we had a
staff a paid staff of, I think,just two other people. I don't
(14:41):
think we paid our churchsecretaries. I think they were
all volunteer. So I had anassistant and associate pastor,
I was senior pastor, and theywere both about my age, and they
were very different. Myassociate pastor was a gay man.
Very brilliant. He's stillpastoring a
After all these years, he had areal gift for programming for
(15:06):
preaching for everything, exceptadministration, he was maybe a
bigger mess than I was in thatarea. And then there was another
assistant pastor who was veryRoman Catholic, she had really
wanted to be a Roman Catholicpriest. And she was very, very,
in that way of thinking. But shewas a good administrator,
(15:26):
because unlike the rest of us,she had actually learned how to
be an administrator in seminary,she had gone to Roman Catholic
seminary, just, they justcouldn't ordain her. And the
other thing that she was doingwas she was administrating a
very large food pantry. It upsetthe neighbors, but it fed a lot
of people. And it really helpedus to feel like we were doing
(15:51):
the work that a church needed todo. Not that the church didn't
need to do the other stuff. Andthe other stuff we were doing
was worship services that peoplereally experienced as very
healing, communal, powerfulevents. And also some
programming that my associatehad developed around men and
(16:13):
women alike, he developed thismen's program, which then the
women replicated to some extent.
And this really grew the church,and the church was already very
lopsided. It was also alreadymostly done. But I think also
because of AIDS, and thereweren't a lot of places to go
for the gay community. Thisreally drew a lot of men. And so
(16:37):
this was an era of lesbian,feminist separatism. When aids
happened and our friends startedto die and be sick and die, we
stepped up and started takingcare of them. And that broke
something that kind of nevercame back, which was kind of a
lesbian, feminist separatism.
But we still had a powerfulresentment, I think about
(16:59):
feeling like such a minority inthe church. Would you mind
describing lesbian, feministseparatism? Sure, in the 70s,
there were really powerfultheological writers like Mary
Daly, rosemary, Ruth, or whojust died, who talked about the
patriarchal aspects of thechurch.
(17:25):
This was happening also, in manyareas of the culture, like, many
lesbians would go to theMichigan Women's Music Festival,
which was closed not only tomen, but also trans men and even
boy children after a certain ageso. So we were kind of trying to
figure out what would it be likenot to live in a patriarchal
culture? How can we change ourlanguage and our worship, so
(17:51):
that we're not worshipping men?
How can we experience our ownimminence, our own sense of God
within us?
Mary Daly, one of the thingsthat she said that I always
loved was when God is a man, theman is God. And so we were very,
and actually the men werelargely helping us with this. We
(18:12):
were really changing ourlanguage, we did not talk about
God and Father, you know, our,our jokey way of talking about
the Trinity, not in worship wastwo boys and a bird. So we had
to change how we talked aboutGod, we had to talk about God in
neutral languages or a mother orfather, we had to talk about how
we talked about Jesus, how wetalked about the Kingdom of God,
(18:35):
and some of the men includingespecially our associate pastor,
were really creative atrewriting the hymnal, they
rewrote the entire hymnal. But,you know, it was really a time
of great creativity, trying toimagine a world that was not
patriarchal, trying to createthat world within our own
community. That's great. That'sreally important context for
(18:57):
this. Thank you. So we got tothe point where three of us were
paid staff, and we had no money.
We were struggling to pay rentin New York City.
That's a whole nother story. Wereally couldn't pay three staff
people. And I was not feelingthat I was released from my call
(19:18):
to be there.
So it seemed to me, number one,that we needed to only have two
paid staff people. And alsonumber two, I felt that who ever
stayed, would be the next pastorof the church. I just had a
sense of that because both ofthese people had very powerful
(19:40):
ministries, and I knew theywould want to stay. So when my
associate pastors contract wasup for renewal, I decided not to
renew his contract, which wasthe same really as firing him.
I really chose to intensify aconflict that was already going
on. And my rereasoning for that was that he
was by far, in my mind the mostgifted, and he would have no
(20:04):
trouble finding his own church.
And I felt a little bit like themother bird, kicking the baby
bird out of the nest because heclearly could fly. I also knew
that the men would be okay, thatthey would continue the
programming that he started. ButI didn't think the food pantry
(20:28):
would continue without theassistant pastor. Plus, he was
just as much of a disaster as anadministrator as I was. So, you
know, later I, I realized it waskind of like Sophie's Choice,
you know, when the when themother is forced to choose
between her two children,because I, you know, I love them
both very much. We weresiblings, really, but I knew it
(20:51):
was on me to make that kind ofdecision. I could have just
resigned and let them fight itout. But I didn't feel free to
do that. Yeah. Can you talkabout that a little bit. Karen,
what are the emotions that arosefor you, as you were trying to
make that decision? I knew thatI had to be absolutely certain
that it was the right thing forthe church. I felt it was the
(21:14):
the right thing for them. But Ihad to be absolutely certain.
And so, you know, I prayed aboutthat a lot. I meditated. I
prayed about it a lot until Igot to a place where I just felt
like I could, that I could facethe fire, really, and not waver
in that. And it was, it wasawful. You know, I felt like I
(21:36):
was being flayed. It was reallyawful. And I had to be really
sure. But I was sure. You know,I really was sure. And so I just
remember having to keep sayingto people individually and in
front of the congregationalmeeting, just keep saying I
believe this is the best thingfor the church. This is really
(22:00):
hard. It's really hard for me toand I think it's necessary.
Yeah, I don't remember a wholelot about what else I would have
said, but I do remember that Ihad to reach very deep into my
own inner conviction that I hadcome to as I was making that
choice. Yeah, I hear so much inthere. I mean, I hear
(22:20):
prioritizing the largercommunity, right over any one
individual, I hear, like reallygoing deep within and sort of
seeking counsel and taking sometime with that decision, so that
by the time you arrive there,you can execute that with
confidence. And I also just hearthis peace around long term
(22:41):
thinking, right, and the manyways that we have to sort of
hold the larger picture or thelarger vision or the larger
strategy, and make immediatedecisions that are incredibly
disruptive. And I'm curious, youknow, when you communicated this
decision to let go of one ofyour colleagues, and continue on
(23:01):
collaborating with the other,how you communicated that, and
what those conversations werelike, I have to be honest with
you, I don't remember tellingeither one of them. I mean, I
would have had to tell them, butI don't remember, I just
rememberhaving to explain it to other
people, you know, the Board ofDirectors, the congregation, I
(23:21):
just remember having to justkeep returning to the feeling
within myself, that no matterwhat happened, I was doing what
I thought was right. What you'resaying is so beautiful around
conflict management, because forme, what it points to is the
deep importance of us of havinga North Star, something inside
(23:44):
us that we really believe thatwe that we know is true inside
us so that it helps us toweather the storm. It's that
rock that we can hold to in themidst of a great storm. Yeah,
and I think by then I had a lotof practice. You know, I think
just being a queer person raisedin the church, drove me to that
(24:08):
place very early on, of havingto trust myself above what
people were telling me. And thenI think, just holding the space
in that church, as the pastorthrough a lot of trauma, I had
to be connected to somethingthat could hold that trauma for
(24:30):
myself and to all of us. So Ithink by the time I went through
that particular fire, I was kindof ready. But I think that kind
of standing in one's ownconviction does take a lot of
practice. You know, practice intelling the truth, even when
it's difficult to practice in,going inside and checking out
(24:53):
one's true feelings andperceptions. So fortunately, I
think that Ihad so much practice that it
helped. So much of conflict isgrief and the many ways grief
manifests itself often in theform of rage. And so I love what
you're talking about here, whichis being able to say, Okay, I'm,
I'm opening up this decision, orI'm igniting this conversation,
(25:16):
and I know there's going to begrief. And I have the
wherewithal to be with people intheir grief as I tell them
something that is, you know, notgoing to make them happy, quote,
unquote. Yeah. Well, it was atime of such grief to. So it was
very painful to add on topeople's grief, you know,
especially the grief of the men,because many of them were sick,
or terrified. I think as much asmany of us hate conflict, we are
(25:40):
grateful for leaders whodemonstrate the ability to make
hard decisions and to make thosehard decisions, considering the
larger context. And and thegreater good of the group. I had
a relationship with this guy,you know, he was a friend,
which was the most difficultaspect of it. How did you to
(26:03):
navigate that? I think it wasdifficult for a while, we're
still really good friends. Butit was difficult for a while,
but not long. You know, within acouple of years, I visited him
at his new church. I certainlygave him a really great
recommendation. And he got agreat church, much better than
(26:24):
ours in a lot of ways. I mean,it was the perfect thing.
That was really confirming forme, the idea that he was ready
to move on and there was a placefor him, that would be better
for him. And he was neededthere. And he did a great job
there. Yeah, I think thedisruption in our relationship
was brief, because I think thathe understood a little bit about
(26:46):
why it was necessary, eventhough it was hard. I think this
is like kind of one of the mostheartbreaking things that's
happening right now in our kindof culture, where so many things
are divided, is that people whoactually share common interests
share common values are at theiressence wanting the same thing,
(27:07):
are split apart by kind oflesser smaller issues that
arise. So there are a fewthreads of of conflict, there's
this larger context of queerpeople being oppressed, that was
happening and still ishappening, then there's this
(27:28):
transition in church leadershipthat you were aware of, you were
on your way out eventually. Andyou knew that whoever you kept,
whichever assistant pastor youkept there would most likely be
elected as the next pastor ofthat church. One of them was a
(27:51):
beloved pastor in your church,who was a man, and was doing
great work with men and women,but really, really supporting
the men in the church. Andanother one was a woman who had
an important food pantry thatwas helping the community.
(28:14):
And you were also aware of thisgreater transition away from
patriarchy. You were a part ofstewarding in this context. Oh,
wait, there is one more, whichyou haven't mentioned. And I'd
love if you if you feel good totalk about it, your relationship
with the woman who you didn'tfire. Our relationship was kind
(28:40):
of stable at this point. I dothink and now that I consider it
that I really wanted the nextpastor of that church to be a
woman. Because there were veryfew women pastors in those days.
There were virtually no womenpastors in Manhattan.
And no women pastors of largechurches in our denomination, of
(29:04):
course, you know, ourdenomination was very tiny. But
at that time, there were noteven that many women in seminary
was just the first wave of womenin seminary. And then once we
graduated, we tended to beassistants very rarely senior
pastors of major churches, so SoI think also that I really
(29:25):
wanted that next pastor to be awoman. Yeah, so later, our
relationship became veryconflictual, but not yet, but
there was a lot of conflicts allover the place. Because we all
came from these differenttheological points of view, and
some were very Evan Jellicle,and some were steeped in
(29:46):
feminist theology and liberationtheology. I just remember that
no matter what I preached about,there would be people who
thought I was going too far theother way, like, I remember this
one sermon, it was the same. Ipreached one sermon and got two
different comments. And one was,you never talk about Jesus, why
don't you talk about Jesus? Andthe other was, all you ever do
(30:09):
is talk about Jesus. Why do youdo that? You know, and it was
the same sermon so so it kind ofillustrated to me, like I just
needed to keep doing what I wasdoing and couldn't please
everybody. I'm curious if youfeel like maybe there was even
more theological conflict,because you were one of the only
queer places of worship. Butwhen there's only one
institution that serving anentire community, that's a
(30:33):
really big deal, and a reallybig kind of responsibility for
you to try and sort of meet theneeds of everyone within that
community. Yeah, that was thatwas huge. And, you know, the
founder of our denomination,Troy Perry was a Pentecostal
minister. And, you know,Pentecostals are led by the
Spirit, it really had to besomeone who could say, oh, the
(30:54):
Spirit told me to start thischurch, because, you know, a
higher, you know, anEpiscopalian or Catholic priests
could not have done it, youknow, he would have or she would
have been defrocked,immediately. So. So that's
absolutely on target. Because inthe denomination, there was a
huge number of Evan Jelliclepeople, fundamentalist people.
(31:16):
And that was really the roots ofthe church. So there was also
always a class conflict goingon. Because a lot of these
Pentecostal and evangelicalpastors had never been to
seminary. And those of us whohad managed I went to a very
good seminary, and other people,especially in the northeast,
did, too. And so you know, wealso had this whole class
(31:36):
conflict going on between thefundamentalists, and those of us
who had been exposed toliberation theology, feminist
theology, and even reallyBiblical studies. So that was
all going on in the church, aswell as in the denomination. And
that was wild, really, that waswild, we would arrive at our
(31:57):
district conferences in generalconferences, and we, we would
fight it out, you know, aboutinclusive language, people
didn't want the language tochange. And some of us felt like
that was just absolutelyessential. And so also in the
church, yes, up through allthose years, there were people
who, who really had troublegetting on board with the ways
(32:19):
that we were interpreting theBible.
And yeah, because we had noplace else to go. I mean, that
was the gift and the curse. Ithink it's a bigger gift and a
curse though because, you know,we ended up with these very rich
worship services, we we wouldhave communion every week for
the Catholics, but then we'dsing all these blood hymns, you
(32:39):
know, all these Evan Jelliclehams that were so campy and so
much fun to sing, you know, andthere really was quite a, quite
a movement of the Holy Spirit aswell as the rituals of
Catholicism. You remember any ofthe campy hymns could share with
us?
power in the blood? Does anybodyknow power in the blood? How's
(33:03):
it go? That's a real campy one.
But I can't remember the firstline. Yeah, the hymns were the
hymns were really wonderful.
If at the end, we would sing,would you be free from the
burden of sin? Yes, yes. Wouldyou be free from the burden of
(33:23):
sin, there's power in the bloodpower in the blood, you know,
and they were really very campy.
And for those of us who, like Iwas raised Presbyterian, so they
were very foreign to me. AndI've never really been into the
blood of Jesus at all. But formany people, you know, those
kinds of hymns were reallyimportant. That was one really
cool thing was we learned tocherish each other's traditions.
(33:44):
That was really beautiful. I'mjust hearing to a lot about
like, the importance of song,the importance of ritual, right,
that even within these sort ofconcentric circles of conflict,
there are these things aroundwhich everyone comes together
and kind of unites and bonds andI'm wondering, you know, as
(34:04):
you're sitting there singingthese wonderful campy hymns
together, what it felt like inthat moment, right, when you're
not sort of debating aboutanything, but you're all just
coming together in that fashion.
Yeah, it was really beautiful.
You know, at the at the end ofthe service, well, you know,
communion was always verypowerful because we celebrated
(34:27):
an open communion. So anyone whojust walked in the church could
take communion. And I justremember that we always would
hold people and pray with them.
After we serve them communion,people would come up in groups
and then we would individuallyhold people or sometimes friends
or lovers would take communiontogether. And so we would, you
(34:51):
know, lay on hands and pray forpeople and they would sometimes
tell us what specifically theywanted to pray for. So, you
know, for people whocame from a sacramental
tradition, like Catholicism, whohad been told that they were
sinners and going to hell andcertainly could never take
communion. And, you know, don'tset foot in the church again, to
be able to come and not onlytake communion, but also be
(35:14):
prayed for in that way with suchlove, you know, and touch and
caring presence, you know, thatkind of presence really heals
trauma. And so, so often peoplewould just weep. And I know that
what we were doing very oftenwas just healing people in a way
that allowed them to moveforward in a whole different
(35:37):
way, you know, not carrying theburden of shame and of rejection
from God, you know,understanding that that
connection had never been brokenfor them with God. And then the
end of the service, I remember,we would always go all the way
around the perimeter of thechurch and hold hands and sing,
(35:57):
there's a sweet, sweet spirit inthis place. And there was there
really was, how does that sound?
That sound goes, there's asweet, sweet speed spirit in
this plane.
(36:18):
And I know that it's the spirit.
There are sweet hair expressionexpressions on each face. And I
know they feel the spirit.
(36:46):
Sweet, tone.
Sweet.
See right here withfilling us with your.
(37:08):
For this blessing, we lift ourhearts to the without a doubt,
we'll know that we have beenrenewed, when we shall leave
this place. Thank you.
One thing that I am really drawnto about this story is that this
(37:33):
was a community that was facingconflict, both externally and
internally. And yet, due to thenature of the community, you
stayed together and faced ittogether. And that feels like
something that we're missing atlarge in society today, where we
(37:55):
have plenty of conflict, andthen we go back to our small
bubble, and fester in conflictinstead of sitting next to
somebody else in a pew andsinging with them, which is a
totally different, it expandsthe human relationship so that
we're not just in conflict withthis person. We're also human
(38:17):
with this person in the world.
And that feels so precious tome, that community part of it,
and it was a bubble. It was abubble. I'm not sure that
homophobic person would havebeen comfortable there. I know
they wouldn't have been, youknow? Yeah, I mean, this, this,
to me, what you're saying kindof speaks to this idea of, for
(38:38):
me boundaries. You know, I justcame up with this with an
acquaintance who made anincredibly homophobic remark.
And I realized, I can't be withthis person. So you know, I
think this both sides ism, hasthe limit in that when the other
side is actually denying myhumanity. I don't want to sing
(38:59):
hymns with them. That's where Idraw the line. I think you bring
up such a beautiful point, whichis like the distinct difference
between having a boundary andsaying no, and being in a state
of conflict. And it makes methink that actually those two
things are conflated. Whenthey're not the same thing,
(39:20):
right? Having a boundary can bean act of self respect, and an
act of dignity. And doesn'tactually have to take on the
aggression or violence that wetypically associate conflict
with. And that feels likesomething that I can even feel
it feel the difference in mybody between like a boundary
kind of erected with dignity anda boundary erected from a place
(39:43):
of being kind of violently antisomething else. Yeah. I love
that. You just said that. Whatare you thinking, Karen? Well, I
guess I feel like this is areally important question for us
now in this country, too.
You know, what, what are thevalues that we can agree on? You
(40:03):
know, we've had hundreds of antigay and anti trans bills passed
nationwide, one just is probablyon the verge of getting passed
here in North Carolina. Andthere is no way that I can
imagine that any of them areokay, you know, we can't co
exist if some of us are notallowed to exist.
(40:27):
You know, I'm endlesslydisappointed that everyone can't
draw that line, you know,because it is so true. You know,
they came for what was it, theimmigrants and I said nothing.
And then they came for the,whatever it was, and they said
nothing. And then there's justnobody left. And I'm feeling a
sense of deja vu now, sinceTrump was elected, like when,
(40:51):
when Reagan was elected, therewas such a sharp turn toward
economic injustice that has justcontinued so quickly. And right
wing violence. This is a verysimilar time, in many ways, but
on steroids. And so once again,it feels like there's a really
pretty small group of peopleactually fighting for justice
(41:12):
for, for love, really, you know,and just like when people were
dying of AIDS, most people don'tseem to be involved. I'm
terrified of that. I'm terrifiedthat we had a 19% voter turnout
rate in Durham, North Carolina,you know, in the primary
election, I'm terrified that 1/3of Americans didn't vote in the
(41:36):
last presidential election. AndI'm terrified of the
disinformation andmisinformation campaign by one
of our political parties, whichmay mean that we're just going
to keep moving into fascismreally quickly. So what what is
going to stop that, I think, isby not just people of color, not
just queer people making theboundary, not just poor people,
(41:59):
but everyone saying, this is notthe country I want, and jumping
in. Karen, I was just wondering,you know, as kind of, I'm going
to call you like one of our oneof my queer elders, who's been a
part of the LGBTQ movement forso many decades.
How you where you see themovement now in terms of
(42:21):
conflict, not just with theouter world, the obvious things
like don't say, gay bill, andall of the, you know, anti trans
policies that are going around,but conflict within the
movement. Because I've beenthinking a lot about some real
kind of internal conflictswithin the LGBT community
between kind of, you know,people who've been around for a
(42:44):
long time, and the youngergeneration and differences in
language and even somedisagreement around the use of
the word queer, you know, a lotof people feeling like, oh,
queer is a word that was usedagainst us, how dare you adopt
it and bring it into the sort ofdominant vocabulary? And I'm
just wondering kind of what anyreflections or observations you
have on that, and what yourunderstanding of that is, or how
(43:06):
you make sense of that? Yeah, itright now, I work in an activist
community that's mostlystraight. I'm not really
connected to the gay communityin many ways. And I, you know, I
know that there are generationalconflicts and every activist
movement, and that's just gonnahappen. You know, I certainly
(43:27):
love what younger LGBTQ peopleare doing with gender. You know,
it's making us really consciousof that. I love that. Yeah,
personally, I really like theword queer, it has a long
history. And that's why I holdto it. You know, I feel like
right now, we are in as dire atime in a different way, you
(43:48):
know, because of the climatecrisis, because of the crisis of
fascism. Destruction of ourdemocracy, like it is just as
perilous a time, certainly forthe next generation, as it was
for those men with AIDS, whoknew they were going to die very
soon. And so I hope that enoughpeople can wake up to the
(44:11):
urgency of the situation and dowhat they can to preserve
democracy, preserve the planet,stop the attacks on vulnerable
populations. You know, it's likean all hands on deck moment, you
know, and I think that we knewthat and, and we rose to that
occasion, largely. And so Ithink that right now, there are
(44:35):
a lot of people doing what theycan. I hope there are more than
I can see, you know, and I and Ihope that there aren't too many
gay people who are lulled byfeeling like these attacks
aren't going to touch them. Solet's let's get the end of the
story. You you had to make adecision about this associate an
(44:58):
assistant pastor one ofthat you were going to let go,
which means the other one wasgoing to stay on and most likely
become pastor when you leave.
And she did. And she becamepastor when I left, and she did
a fine job, that food pantrycontinued. Now there's a
shelter. They bought a church inManhattan. I have no idea how
(45:21):
they managed to do that. Yeah,she's still there. Both of them
are still pastoring them. Yes,yes.
And when you look back on itall, do you have any general
reflections that you learnedthat you'd like to share from
that experience? You know, Ithink that was the right thing
to do. But it was only borne outby history. Who knows, maybe
(45:44):
everything would have turned outgreat. If I had done something
different. I don't know what Ishould have done. But I'm mostly
really grateful for that time. Iwas pastor of that church for 10
years, and really, reallygrateful. And then when I left,
I've never really looked back,either. So when were you
relieved of your service? 1988.
So it's 1978 to 1988. That's agood chunk. Yeah, yeah, I was 35
(46:08):
When I left, and then I workedin the AIDS community for the
next five years. Thank you somuch, Karen, for telling us your
story. And for spending timewith us. It's such a pleasure to
see you. You're welcome. It wasreally a joy to talk to you.
Thank you, Karen. Thank you.
(46:36):
Thanks for listening to ourinterview with Karen Ziggler. If
you enjoyed this episode, pleaseshare it with your friends. And
tune in next time when we'lltalk with author and former
hostage negotiator George coalreserve, about lessons he
learned in moments of crisis.
Before we go, it's time for AskDan.
(47:00):
Have you ever wanted to ask DanGoleman anything about emotional
intelligence, mindfulnessmeditation or leadership or
maybe purpose or life ingeneral? If you've got
questions, Dan has answerssubmit your question via
voicemail at Keystepmedia.com/ask. Dan, your
(47:21):
question could be selected andfeatured on an upcoming episode.
This week's question is aboutthe relationship between empathy
and emotional intelligence. Dan,I've really enjoyed the series
on conflict management. Andyou've mentioned a couple of
times how empathy can be key innavigating conflict. I'm
wondering, What can I do withinmyself to be a more empathetic
person? I think it helps at thestart to realize that there are
(47:47):
different kinds of empathy. Oneis cognitive empathy, where you
understand how the other personthinks, you don't just get stuck
in your own story. But youlisten for theirs. And you try
to understand the terms thatthey use themselves to explain
the world to themselves. This iscalled their mental models. This
(48:10):
helps you be a bettercommunicator with the other
person. It also helps you withcertain kinds of empathy, where
you can say I see your point ofview when actually being in the
second kind is emotionalempathy, where you feel what the
other person feels. And thishappens because of the social
(48:30):
brain circuitry where brain tobrain we form a silent and
visible instantaneous link withthe other person's brain and
emotions pass back and forththrough that link. This is why
emotions are so contagious, butit helps you empathize, because
you not only know how the personthinks but how they feel. And
(48:51):
then the third kind of empathy,which is very different is
feeling that you care aboutfeeling a sense of concern. Each
of these kinds of empathy isbased in different brain
circuitry. And the concern isbased in the circuitry that is
the same as a parent's love fora child. So you're really deeply
(49:12):
caring about the other personyou want what's best for them.
And I think that the more youcan let the person know that
this is motivating you, I thinkthe easier it will be to heal
the riftthat's our show Special thanks
(49:33):
to Cora, whose voice you heardat the top of the show and to
our guest Karen Ziggler. Shewrites a newsletter about her
work as an activist, you couldsign up at Tiny letter.com/karen
Zig, that last part is KaRENZIG. That's tiny
letter.com/karen zyk. We alsohave the link in our show notes
(49:55):
on our website at first personplural.com
While you're there, you cancheck out our guest BIOS
transcripts and resourcesmentioned in today's episode.
You can also follow us onInstagram at Keystep media. If
you enjoyed our discussion withKaren Ziggler. Check out some of
our past interviews. I like theepisodes with Peter haberle and
Dan Harris. None of this wouldbe possible without our
(50:18):
incredible team. Our hosts areDaniel Goleman, Hanuman Goleman
and Elizabeth Solomon. BrianJohnson creates the beautiful
art you see with each episode.
Our audio editor is MichelleZipkin Zarina Cardin does
marketing. Our music is by AmbroHader and goes beats and I'm
Carrie see.
This podcast is sponsored byKeystep media, your source for
(50:41):
personal and professionaldevelopment materials focused on
mindfulness, leadership andemotional intelligence. Next
time we'll dive even deeper intoconflict management with our
guest, former hostage negotiatorGeorge colorizer. Until then,
take care of yourself and we'lltalk soon
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