NYT Reporter, Claire Cain Miller, on the Pandemic’s Effect on Children

Today we're looking at emotional balance for young people. Liz Solomon spoke with New York Times reporter Claire Kane Miller about an eye opening survey of school counselors across the country. 

The survey described many students as developmentally frozen at their pre pandemic stage. We spoke with Gwen and Kim who work in elementary schools for first hand reports on the emotional state of children.

Daniel Goleman talks about his Emotional Intelligence Courses, available at danielgolemanemotionalintelligence.com

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Episode Transcript

Kerry Seed (00:16):
How's your summer going? This was a pretty tough
school year for everyone. Sowe're doing our best to enjoy a
more typical summer we'll bedoing a lot of bike riding. Our
oldest was just a musical. Shewas a teacup and Beauty and the
Beast, and her little sister hadan ice cream cake at her
birthday party.
Both of them I would say hadincredible teachers this year

(00:36):
who went above and beyond tomake up for pandemic learning
loss. So I feel so grateful fortheir teachers, especially as I
read about this deepening GlobalLearning crisis and worsening
inequalities in education. Haveyou seen this new report from
the World Bank? It estimatesthat 70% of 10 year old children
in developing countries are nowunable to read and understand

(01:00):
the basic text. The pandemicalso stressed social and
emotional skills like those youneed to make and keep friends,
participate in group projectsand cope with frustration and
other emotions. So today, we'relooking at emotional balance for
young people. Liz Solomon spokewith New York Times reporter
Claire Kane Miller about an eyeopening survey of school

(01:22):
counselors across the country.
First up, though, we wanted tohear from people working in
schools, we thought we're goingto talk to a whole bunch of
them. But it turns out, they'reon much needed vacation. So
we're able to get to firstyou've got Liz speaking with her
partner, Gwen, who's aneducational consultant in
Massachusetts.

Gwen Bass (01:41):
I work with organizations and schools and
parents around issues related tosupporting students for
inclusion and special educationand trauma informed teaching. So
just a few questions, whatchanges in behavior Did you see
this past school year, I justwant to make make sure that I
mentioned the caveat that like Iwork in the school, my most of

(02:05):
the work that I do is on theorganizational or systems level.
And I had the pleasure of goinginto this school for just a day
and a half a week. So I'm notsomeone who's been in the
trenches for the last two, threeyears, and sort of sitting with
what's been happening. So myperspective, I feel like is
informed by the fact that like,I'm not burned out, it's
important to acknowledge that.
So some of the things that Iit's hard for me to talk about

(02:26):
changes. But some of the thingsthat I've noticed are
thematically shifting for kidsare related to, we're seeing a
lot more school refusal, a lotmore kids having anxiety about
going to school, in ways that Idon't think we've ever really
seen before. And to me, thatmakes a whole lot of sense. I
also think we're at sort of thismoment of mismatch between what
educators and even caregiversare sort of expecting of their

(02:51):
kids developmentally, and whatis actually happening, given the
vast range of experiences thatkids had during the pandemic. So
we're seeing second graders whoshow up looking like
kindergarteners, and secondgrade teachers who are feeling
really frustrated, becausethey're used to utilizing their
second grade teaching skill set,and then feel really confused
and frustrated that their kidsaren't meeting those

(03:11):
expectations. And I think thattends to lead to a lot of issues
between home and school. Becausethere's this, again, it's like
this mismatch of both parentswho are really understandably
anxious about protecting theirchildren, and are all sort of
recovering from or living withsome ongoing presentation of
that traumatic experience, whilealso wanting their kids to be

(03:34):
successful in ways that we'vetypically measured success. So
we know what kids should bedoing at the age of 12. But a
lot of kids are not doing thethings that we would have
expected them to be doing. Andso trying to reconcile those
differences of like, I reallywant to protect you, I want to
make sure that you're safe. Andyou know, and I think some
parents actually probablyunderstand their kids a little

(03:56):
better now than they did twoyears ago, because they've spent
more time with them. But I thinka lot of anxieties are sort of
affecting the way we're askingkids to show up in school, and
then simultaneously, we'reexpecting them to perform in
standards that are relativelyunreasonable, I think, how was
your interaction with parentsthis year, I would say parents
across the board were much moreinvolved. I feel like it's

(04:17):
important to mention, too, thatI work with students with a
range of like socio economicbackgrounds and cultural
backgrounds. And so all of thatcertainly plays into how parents
engage in school, howcomfortable they feel, what sort
of the issues are that they'redealing with, related to their
kids, but I would say thatacross the board, I've seen much
more engagement involvement,that doesn't necessarily mean

(04:38):
that it's productive. And I youknow, I can't say that I had
like, terrible experiences, butI definitely feel like that
underlying trauma and anxiety oflike, I'm not sure if my kids
gonna be safe at school or I'mnot sure my kids are not feeling
comfortable, or my kids notdoing well. And so I'm starting
to panic, I think is is sort offueled by that undercurrent of
lingering trauma.

Liz Solomon (05:00):
And how have you seen either the school you
worked in or schools that youconsult with? How have you seen
them addressing these challenges

Gwen Bass (05:07):
that you're seeing a lot of kids who are moving from
sort of like, and I kind of Iuse this analogy may work a lot,
like a lot of people will talkabout kids going from zero to
60, when a lot of kids arereally good at masking what it
looks like to go from zero to50. And so they're already at
50. And, you know, it seemslike, you know, like, from that
educator perspective, like kidsare sort of like losing it
quickly, and becoming reallydysregulated. And I think

(05:28):
teachers are really strugglingto deal with it. I've seen some
teachers do really great workaround just what are the
students in my classroom need tobe able to feel valued, and, you
know, like, included, andrespected and capable, and
really trying to build from thatplace of like, wow, we need to
do some level setting and likereally, building of folks self

(05:48):
esteem and re introducing whatit's like to be around other
people and like, you're not justin your house. So like, there
are a lot more social demands onkids, or behavioral demands. But
I also think there's this like,interesting thing happening, you
know, and it's a shift that I'vesort of been encouraging for a
long time of reallyunderstanding what it looks like
to behave like what we expectschool behavior to look like,

(06:11):
which is really sort of, youknow, not to be like overly
political, but I feel like it'slike a white supremacist
oriented value system. And we'reseeing a lot of kids who are
typically sort of like shuttledout of being able to be
successful in that environmentare often and you know,
neurodiverse kids, kids ofcolor. Kids from different
cultural backgrounds, or socioeconomic backgrounds are the
ones who struggle the most inschool. And so I think now we're

(06:33):
seeing this, this time, whenkids have spent more, they spent
two years more or less immersedin their home culture, and then
they're trying to reintegrateinto school. And that just looks
really different for a lot ofkids. And I think a lot of
teachers are having to sort ofadjust their expectations, or
having to create more inclusiveenvironments so that kids want
to engage, feel comfortable,feel safe. And in some ways, as

(06:54):
difficult as that has been, andas much as I've seen teachers
struggle. And again, I haven'tbeen in that struggle for three
years. So like, I can reallyappreciate it from that
perspective. I think it's beenin some ways a positive trend.

Elizabeth Solomon (07:05):
What do you expect for the coming year?

Gwen Bass (07:07):
I think we're gonna just continue to be in this
readjustment phase of, you know,like, how involved do parents
are parents gonna stay involved?
I have a lot of questions abouthow this is going to progress as
time goes on. But I really feellike some of the things that we
have seen and you know, I thinka lot about standardized
testing. And a lot of the normsfor standardized tests right

(07:30):
come from, like, what are themajority of kids doing three
years ago? That's how we knowwhat is a developmentally
appropriate sort of expectation.
That's how we define what isaverage. And I think that will
continue to shift as we, youknow, see what kind of happens
with this population of kidsover the next few years. So I
think we'll see that I think,the other piece that I

(07:50):
acknowledged in some of the workthat I did in schools is because
of burnout. And because of kindof managing these two
expectations of holding a higherlevel of social emotional need
for from kids, like teachers arehaving to do a lot more in that
way. And they're having to do alot of academic catching up of
kids, I think that tension willcontinue. And I think at some
point, we're gonna have tofigure out how to meet in the

(08:10):
middle, in terms of reallysupporting kids as whole people,
and really understandingachievement a little bit
differently. And, you know, whatare our goals for our kids? And
I often in my work with teacherswill say, like, what do you want
them to be able to do at the endof the day, you know, like,
what's the most important thingfor these kids to be able to
accomplish? Is it like, youknow, I'm 100% sure that what
really matters to me is theyneed to, like, understand the

(08:32):
Odyssey and be able to talkabout it. And that's like,
totally fine, if that's yourvalue system. But I think being
really clear about what thosethings are. And for me, a lot of
that is really much more rootedin the social emotional skills
that we know sort of ultimatelycontribute to lifelong well
being. And what are some ofthose skills in this moment,
obviously, this issue aroundself regulation in the classroom
is huge, and being able to becollaborative. And I think kids

(08:53):
haven't really had theopportunity to interact with a
lot of other folks until thisyear, we're sort of back and
like I said, just kind ofreadjusting to what it's like to
be together. But I also feellike there's a really important
piece around self advocacy thatrelates to having self
awareness, having, you know,this idea that like, I am
responsible for my own being Ican have wants a need that

(09:14):
interests, other people do too.
And I can like make sense of thesystems that I'm a part of, to
be able to really figure out howto like meet my personal goals
and needs, so that I can achievein the ways that are important
to me

Liz Solomon (09:27):
anything to say about like examples or stories
of schools who have really beenable to support their teachers,
their counselors and their kids.
Well, this year, kind of at theadministrative or leadership
level. Yeah,

Gwen Bass (09:38):
you know, I think we've talked for a long time
about relationship building. Andone of the critiques around
culturally responsive teachingis a lot of folks will say, all
you have to do is buildrelationships. And that's going
to change the culture and Idon't actually totally abide by
that. But I do feel like becausekids have had such strange
social isolation or many of theplaces where I've seen

(10:00):
Like a principle take 10 minutesto go to baskets with a seventh
grader who's having a reallyhard time like that stuff makes
a huge difference right now arethe ways that individual kids
are kind of acknowledged forlike, hey, you know, you were
having a really hard time cominginto school and you're doing it.
And that's really great. Andsort of acknowledging those
pieces. I think that thoselittle steps go a really, really

(10:21):
long way in terms of helpingpeople feel like oh, right
School is a place where like, Ibelong, and somebody cares about
me. And they're invested in mywell being, and they believe
that I can succeed. And I thinkthat's one of the things that we
most sort of like need to conveyto them. And so those kinds of
like micro moments feel reallyhighly impactful right now.

Kerry Seed (10:47):
There was one educational consultant in
Massachusetts speaking about herexperience in schools this year.
And next I spoke with my sisterin law Kim. She teaches in an
Oregon Elementary Schoolsupporting first and second
graders who speak languagesother than English. Her students
come from all over the world andspeak more than 19 languages.
She says the pandemic has shedlight on a years long decline in

(11:10):
students mental stability.

Kim Seed (11:13):
I will say I'm glad to see that the pandemic has maybe
shined a light on a lot ofissues that children have been
having, I do have a concern thatthe pandemic is going to be
maybe an excuse for what I'vebeen seeing. For several years
prior to the pandemic, students.
Mental behaviors have beendeclining long before the

(11:36):
pandemic,

Kerry Seed (11:39):
Oregon closed schools for longer than most
states. This year, you're backfor a full school year. What did
you see?

Kim Seed (11:47):
Again, I met a first grade. So our students that came
in the beginning of this pastschool year had not had
experience at all, as a studentin a school building. And we did
see again, and I would say thiswas pandemic related for
certain, they just had not hadan experience of being a student

(12:08):
of being in school, they didn'tknow how to be a student, what
was expected, how to behave, howto stand in line, how to listen
to directions. And I did noticean even more stark inability to
interact, solve conflicts workwith peers, which surprises me

(12:31):
because frankly, most of ourstudents were not isolated. They
live in apartments, they live incommunities where they were
still playing outside,interacting with families living
in multiple family homes. Sothey didn't have the isolation
that I think a lot of familiesdid have, I can remember we

(12:53):
would deliver supplies to thekids, the bags that they would
need for their academic,whatever they needed that month,
or week, and, and we would pullup to a complex and there would
be 25 3040 kids outside playing.
So I know that they didn't lackthe social interaction. It was
more just being a student andbeing in a school environment.

(13:16):
That was difficult at first.

Kerry Seed (13:21):
And as an adult, what's that like for you during
the day?

Kim Seed (13:24):
It's tiring, it's tiring. And sometimes it's hard
to stay positive. But we do andwe just redirect and practice.

Kerry Seed (13:33):
And Did it improve over time? It did.

Kim Seed (13:36):
I would say that was one of the exciting things about
coming back this year isstarting from a rough spot. And
then seeing that growth wastremendous. And it was really, I
just felt good to see themprogress and mature and become
students and know what thoseexpectations and norms were.

Kerry Seed (14:00):
What about things like anxiety and depression or
strong emotions?

Kim Seed (14:06):
Again, I can't speak that. I saw it become more of a
problem this year post pandemic,but we have had instances where
children just will talknegatively about themselves and
about others. They'll say I'veheard the normal I can't do

(14:27):
that. I'm no good at this. But Idon't like myself. I don't have
any friends. And I'm glad Idon't have any friends. Things
like that that are sad andtroubling from first graders.
Yeah,

Kerry Seed (14:40):
that's a disturbing statement.

Kim Seed (14:42):
I'm trained to be an educator and teach academics to
a student. I was not trained asa counselor, or one to deal with
a student in crisis. And that'sa position that we are put in as
teachers these days andI, for one, don't feel qualified
to do it. So we'll often reachout to experts in the room in

(15:04):
the building. So many times, wehave to peel back those layers,
those needs that kids have forthem to even be able to start
accessing the academics. Sothat's a lot on our plates.
They've got to address thesemore fundamental issues before
they can even show up to learn.

(15:25):
Yes, how was your interactionwith parents different this
year, if at all, I would say,again, I'm not a classroom
teacher. And so I generallydon't have the direct contact
with parents. I personally havemade an effort to do that more
this year. And so I'm, I wouldsay that was better. And I will

(15:48):
say that when we were teachingremotely, one of the benefits
was being basically at ourstudents homes, and then is when
I had a lot more interactionwith our families. And I could
give feedback right then inthere, oftentimes, and I loved
it, I would have a parent,sitting alongside their child,

(16:13):
learning English along withthem, along with us. And once I
had a child who had beenstruggling and had had an
amazing, I can't say day, butgroup time with me, and mom was
in the room, and I was able tosay, Hey, can have mom come on
over and just give her thatpositive feedback right away,

(16:34):
and have the child right thereto hear it. That was an amazing
part of the distance learningmissed out a little bit this
last year, as we were more withthe kids, but not having as much
of a connection with the wholefamily. You said a lot of the
issues at your school are racialin nature, I think they are I
think there's a repression andthat many of our families who

(16:58):
are not your white middle class,just don't have the opportunity
to know that they have theopportunities that they could
access. And, again, I thinkdeeply that every family wants
what's best for their child andwants to do what's best for
their child, but they don't havethose resources, or they're

(17:19):
simply don't know they're outthere. And then also, they're
just struggling to survive.
They're struggling to know wherethey're going to live. Next
week, they're struggling becausethey haven't seen their father
in five years. And there's therethey miss family that that
aren't here. And I think that'sa lot of the reasons they're

(17:41):
just surviving and working hard.
And, and trying to do the bestthat they can but, but they're
stuck and it's hard to digthemselves back out of that
hole. Let's just say a studentdoesn't do their homework or
isn't being supported with theirreading. And we can talk so
negatively about, oh, thisfamily doesn't care about

(18:03):
school, this family's notsupporting their student. Nope,
it's probably that mom and ordad, or whoever the adult taking
care of the child works nightsand needs to sleep and works two
or three jobs to support theirfamily. And to just take some of
that negative thinking away andsupport a family where they are

(18:24):
because again, I have to believeeveryone's innately good and
wants to do what's best fortheir child. But perhaps there
are some walls that need to betaken down for them to be able
to do that, if that makes anysense. I

Kerry Seed (18:47):
want to thank Gwen and Kim for sharing what it was
like working in schools thisyear. For more on the state of
students emotional balance. LizSolomon interviewed Claire Kane
Miller, a reporter for Theupshot of The New York Times,
she writes about gender work andfamily. During the pandemic, her
beat often extended tochildren's well being as a
result of all the disruptions tofamilies with school closures.

(19:09):
With the times you recentlylaunched a survey where you talk
to I think over 350 schoolcounselors nationwide. And some
of the things you heard backwere, you know, perhaps
unsurprising given what we'reseeing in the rest of the news,
and I'm sure unsurprising tosome of our parents out there.

(19:29):
But students right now weredescribed as being frozen
socially and emotionally at theage when the pandemic started.
And nearly all of the counselorsin this survey that you
launched, said that theirstudents were showing more signs
of anxiety and depression thanbefore the pandemic. I would
love to just hear what inspiredyou and the times to develop

(19:49):
this survey and what else didyou learn? Absolutely. So I have
two children. They're currentlyfinishing kindergarten and
fourth grade and in

Claire Cain Miller (20:00):
My life as a parent, I had heard teachers say
this a lot, I talked to a secondgrade teacher at our school who
said, you know, I've taughtsecond grade for a long time.
And I'm realizing that this yearI'm having to teach kindergarten
skills, because our studentshaven't had experience sitting
at desks or lining up to go toanother classroom or raising
their hand when they want toshare something. I also heard

(20:22):
from a fourth grade teacher atour school that this was the
hardest year of her career, a 20year plus career. And it wasn't
because of academic lags, whichis what she had expected, it was
because of social emotionallags. And even into the spring,
after a year of being back infull time school, or her kids

(20:43):
were still really strugglingwith some of these social
emotional skills. I heard fromour school counselor that she
just simply didn't have enoughtime to do one on one sessions
are small group sessions withall the children who needed it,
because there was so muchgreater need this year. And so
we've done this method in thepast, we did it for being an

(21:03):
epidemiologist at the beginningof the pandemic, where we reach
out to hundreds or 1000s througha professional organization.
Lots of journalism is aboutinterviewing people, one on one
and hearing anecdotes. And thoseanecdotes can be very powerful,
like the ones that I just sharedfrom the teachers and counselor
at our school. But we also findthere's something really
powerful about talking tohundreds or 1000s of people

(21:28):
working in the same professionnationwide, because you start to
see these patterns, it's it'sreally powerful for one person
to say they're seeing this, butwhen you hear that people across
the country, in schools, in richand poor communities, public and
private, urban and rural, areall seeing these patterns, it
tells you a different story. Sothat's why I wanted to do that.

(21:49):
And that's where the idea camefrom.

Elizabeth Solomon (21:51):
That's great.
I'm curious if there's any moreto share about some of what
teachers and administrators andschool counselors were sharing
in the survey in terms of, youknow, what are some of the
specific gaps that they'reseeing or specific behaviors
that they're seeing.

Claire Cain Miller (22:05):
So the most striking one to me was signs of
anxiety or depression, we askedabout a bunch of behaviors and
coping skills and emotionalhealth issues. And we asked if
they were seeing the more thanthey had in the year before the
pandemic, about the same less,or if they had never seen those

(22:25):
at their school. The highestincrease was signs of anxiety or
depression, a full 94% of schoolcounselors said they were seeing
more of that. And we didqualitative follow up questions
asking about it. Anxiety wasreally the big one. Kids who
were sort of unable to focus inclass because of their anxiety.

(22:49):
In some cases, it was veryfocused on things like a family
member getting sick themselvesgetting COVID, you know, not
being able to keep up in schoolwith what was being taught this
year after a year of beingremote. But often it was just
more amorphous symptoms. Youknow, just a agitation worries,

(23:12):
trouble coping. One thing thatwe heard from many, many
counselors along these lines wasthat they've had more referrals
outside of the system than everbefore. School counselors, of
course, are not therapists, theycan provide short term help,
they often provide a full classor small group help, but but
they don't have the capacity orthe training to see kids, one on

(23:33):
one for long periods of time.
And so when kids need that theyrefer them outside the system to
a doctor or a therapist. Usuallythat happens a few times a year,
they said now they said it'shappening all the time. A lot of
them mentioned suicidal ideationhas increased, really
disturbingly, they mentionedthis a lot at the elementary
school level, and third andfourth and fifth grade that

(23:54):
they'd seen self harm. And kidstalking about suicide and of
course, when they see that theyrefer them out. And then a
problem is that the mentalhealth system outside the
schools is also overcapacityright? Now. So many times when
they referred them out, theycouldn't see somebody there were
waitlists, the people who areavailable to take insurance.
Sometimes kids end up in the ER,which is not actually equipped

(24:17):
to treat someone with with along term issue, but is the only
place to go when there's nothingelse available.

Elizabeth Solomon (24:25):
Yeah, yeah.

Liz Solomon (24:27):
I've been thinking about that a lot lately. I also
have for kids between my partnerand I ages nine through 13 and
have been following prettyclosely just the incredible rise
in child suicide.

Claire Cain Miller (25:00):
Rules who have been equipped to handle
this? Well, so one of thebiggest issues is the ratio. The
American School CounselorAssociation recommends that
there is one counselor for 250kids, which is already crazy, an
extraordinarily large amount of,but most schools in this country
don't even meet that they'remore like one counselor for

(25:22):
every 400 kids. So the schoolsthat have been able to bring in
extra help, have said that thathas been huge, you know, just to
get that ratio down so thatcounselors can work with fewer
children, we're still talking acouple 100 children. So you
know, it's definitely notenough. Another thing that we
heard was really helpful is someschools have been able to bring

(25:44):
in therapists. So these aretherapists from the community,
like from community healthcenters, who come work at the
school one day a week. In somecases, they're doing this pro
bono, in most cases, they'reaccepting insurance, and they
work with the parents, just likeif the parent hadn't had seen
the therapist in a medicalsetting, but they're coming to
the school. That's been reallyhelpful, but is not so common.

(26:04):
It requires partnerships betweenschools and community health
care centers, and people who arewilling to do this. One thing I
heard a lot of, you know,counselors have sort of switched
their jobs in a sense, where,before they were working on
social emotional skills, whichyour listeners are familiar
with, but things like executivefunction, how to plan for

(26:29):
completing the projects that youneed to do, how to stay
organized, and motivated and setgoals in school, that had to do
with social skills, how to solveconflicts with friends, how to
make friends, and then had to dowith coping skills, what to do
when you're really stressed. Andwhen you're really frustrated,
things like that. Those sorts ofproactive lessons, a lot of
counselors talk to me about howtheir job is proactive teaching,

(26:51):
that's what they're trying todo. They're trying to teach kids
those skills, not in the momentof a crisis. But so that then
when they're stressed about abig test, or when they get in a
fight on the playground, theycan draw upon those skills that
they already learned in order tocope with those issues. They
said that their jobs this yearhave become almost entirely
reactive. Meaning that they'renot even having the time or

(27:13):
space to teach proactive skills.
So many kids are in crisis. Theyare, you know, melting down in
class, they are unable tocomplete their schoolwork, they
are getting into physical fightson the playground. So instead,
they're teaching these skillsafter the fact they're working
on solving these crises. But theones who have been able to find
time and space to sort of dosome more proactive things, had

(27:35):
some really interesting ideas.
One thing I've heard a lot is anidea of creating wellness rooms.
They call them calm down roomsor wellness rooms or reset
areas. And they were basicallyplaces they have couches,
beanbags, fidget toys, a lot ofpeople talked about these
calming bottles or stressbottles, where you fill up a

(27:58):
tight bottle with liquid orlittle floaty things or glitter.
And you can turn it upside downand just sort of watch it and
it's a mindfulness activity. Andthe idea was that kids can come
to these areas when they feeltheir anxiety, or their stress
building, or they're having aconflict, and they can use those
areas to calm down. In somecases, depending on the

(28:19):
resources of that schoolcommunity, this was more like a
snack room, if you were dealingwith food insecurity at home,
you could come and make surethat you got you know, fed
because we're talking aboutreally, you know, basic needs
being met and not being met insome communities as a result of
the pandemic. So really, itdepends on on the area, they are

(28:40):
like, what level of needs thatthey're working on.
Another thing I heard wascounselors really expanding the
kinds of things they teach. Sotaking this time to to really
focus on anxiety since that wasthe main thing that they were
seeing and and sort of puttingthese other lessons on maybe how
to plan for applying to collegeaside for the moment and, and

(29:01):
working on anxiety, you know,either in in whole class
activities and small groups,things like that. So these are
these are some of the likereally concrete things that
people have done. That soundedreally intrigued.

Elizabeth Solomon (29:15):
You know, as you're talking specifically, as
you mentioned, things likewellness rooms, my mind
immediately flashed to likeSilicon Valley Tech, right? And
what we think of is kind of someof the most lavish cultures
right, where there's napping,pods and all of these little
timeout spaces. And I'm, itleads me to a question, you
know, especially for you assomeone who writes about not

(29:36):
just has been writing about kidsand Child Mental Health in the
school system, but writes aboutwork. What are some of the
parallels that you're seeingacross the board between Child
Mental Health and adult mentalhealth, between the resources we
need in schools and resourcesthat we need in the workplace?

Claire Cain Miller (29:54):
I think one sort of outcome of the pandemic
that is ultimate minutely a goodthing is that there has just
been so much more openness aboutmental health, this affected
every single person on earth insome way. And it has opened up,
I think the ability for peopleto share more about mental

(30:16):
health with less stigma. Onething I heard from school
counselors is that kids arereally good at this that because
you know, things are new tokids, kids carry less stigma,
they haven't been in society aslong, they're really good at it.
But I think adults are gettingbetter at it too. And, you know,
I think that some workplaces andspecifically right now, I'm
talking about white collarworkplaces that are able to give
these kinds of benefits, somehave added mental health days,

(30:38):
some have added on free therapyservices as part of their
benefits package. And I thinkthere's just a lot less stigma
and a lot more openness to usingthose as a result of the
pandemic. I want to be veryclear here that a lot of
workplaces have not been able toaddress mental health have
probably made mental health alot worse during the pandemic,
and I'm talking about essentialworkers, hourly workers who have

(31:01):
still had to go to grocerystores, for example, every day,
you know, we've heard a lotabout how people in these kinds
of jobs have really struggled ina pandemic, because they've been
on the front lines, we've hearda lot about health care workers
just being completely burnt out.
There's a doctor and nurseshortage in this country right
now. So you know, I don't thinkthat all workplaces have been

(31:22):
able to address this, but Ithink some have, and I think,
overall, what we've realizedboth with kids and adults, and
this is something that people inyour field have known for a very
long time, it will not strikeyou as news. But for some people
it is news, or a new way ofthinking about it is that you
can't really be productive, orlearn or work or do anything

(31:44):
else without these needs beingmet. So a lot of schools have
been resistant to investing insocial emotional learning. There
are some states like Floridaright now that are actually
trying to restrict socialemotional learning for political
reasons that that's not evenwhat I'm talking about. I'm
talking about just notprioritizing it not thinking
it's a great place to spendmoney or time in the classroom,

(32:07):
when you could be doing mathfacts, instead of you know, an
exercise on how to handlestress. But what I heard from
counselors and from teachersthis year is just this deep
realization that without thosecoping skills without the
ability to be centered andmindful in class and not anxious
and not, you know, worryingabout what's going on at home or

(32:28):
worrying about whether you'regetting COVID or worrying about
whether you're behind in school,you can't really learn you can't
really focus on math facts ifyou are in the middle of a
meltdown. So these are sort oflike basic skills. And I think
that workplaces have hopefully,and again, probably more white
collar, you know, you mentionedSilicon Valley, these kinds of

(32:50):
places that can afford to give alot of benefits have realized
this is that they're not goingto get productivity out of their
workers collaboration out of theworkers and less their workers
like basic mental health needsare being met.

Elizabeth Solomon (33:04):
Yeah, I think you're pointing to what I'm
seeing is like this sort ofgreat paradigm transition that
we're in, right, which is fromthis hyper focus on achievement,
and these very kind of narrowparameters, academic
achievement, grades, math,science, right? Go to Harvard,
go to Yale, the way that we kindof prepare kids to engage with
these larger systems. And thisrealization, you know, I think

(33:27):
for a long time, there's beenthis divide of like, we're
either achieving academically,or we're kind of like in the
feelings zone, right. And seeingthose as two separate realities,
when what the research isshowing is actually those are
just two sides of the same coin.
And that in order to be focusedand motivated, we need to sort
of attend to our emotionalselves, both within schools as
in the within the workplace. Youknow, I do hear that the

(33:50):
conversation around mentalhealth has become more public
facing organizations, schools,people are talking about mental
health and helping kids andadults have access to individual
services. One of the questionsthat I often asked myself is
what does it look like to beable to have some of these
conversations to be able toprocess grief in collective

(34:11):
settings, right, as part ofgroup conversation to be in a
group process together. And I'mwondering if you heard from any
of these school counselors,examples of how either the
school day had been transformedsomewhat, or maybe specific
teachers within theirclassrooms, we're giving kids
the space to actually talk abouttheir fears, not just around

(34:36):
COVID But you know, all of theoverlapping tragedies that we've
seen over the past two years. Idid

Claire Cain Miller (34:45):
the one way that I heard that the most I
heard a lot of people mentionedthere was a lot of grief and
that kids needed space toprocess it. The specific way
that I heard a lot, which Ithought was interesting was
through art. So several of thecounselors mentioned that they
had done on different kinds ofsort of art therapy projects,
which were a way for kids toprocess what they went through,

(35:07):
there was a lot of mentionedthat the pandemic obviously
affected kids differently. Somekids lost parents, some kids
experienced homelessness or foodinsecurity. As a result, these
are, you know, very, very bigsources of stress and grief that
needs to be processed. For otherkids, it was, might seem

(35:27):
smaller, but in their lives,it's still very large, which is,
you know, at a key year forsocial development, say junior
high level, they didn't seetheir friends for a year, or
they lost friends. It could bealso that the pandemic was a
nice break for some of them afew places, especially at the

(35:48):
kind of schools that you'rementioning these schools that
have been really focused onachievement and getting into the
best college, the kids have beenreally over scheduled, they had
a great deal of stress, becauseof being over scheduled with
extracurriculars with APclasses, and all of it. And
counselors at these schoolsmentioned this year long break,
where none of those things werepossible was actually really

(36:08):
healthy for these kids. And nowwhat they're talking about upon
return is how do we keep thatbalance between school and life,
and you know that you have somemore of that space and not go
back to the stress that you feltbefore for other kids. Maybe
they had a lot of sensoryissues, or social anxiety and
being in school was really hardfor them. And so the pandemic

(36:28):
actually felt like a bit of arespite. I'll take a sort of
side note there and say that alot of the psychiatrists and
psychologists I talked to, saidthat for these kids, while it
may have been arrested, it'sstill important for them to be
back in school, because avoidingthe thing that causes you
anxiety, like a group ofstudents is not usually the best

(36:49):
way to treat anxiety. So theystill recommended that these
kids, you know, benefits frombeing back in school. But it
just goes to show that there'sdifferent experiences of the
pandemic. So going back to theto the way that they were
processing that I heard a lotabout was art, was drawing
pictures, it was writing comicstrips, or making graphic
novels. In some cases, you know,it was free form, so they could

(37:10):
write a poem or a song if theywanted to, and then sharing them
with the class. And a few of thecounselors said that, that this
form of art really helps kids,you know, kids often share a lot
of feelings through what theydraw, or what they make. And,
and it just gave them space tofocus on that a lot of the
counselors and teachers to alsomentioned that, you know, the

(37:31):
idea of going straight into theacademic year without taking
this time to process thosefeelings, talk about them make
art about them, just didn'treally work. But it was sort of
that kind of break forprocessing was really needed
before that they could move onand focus on the strictly
academic learning.

Elizabeth Solomon (37:49):
Another thing I've been thinking about, you
know, in the world of emotionalintelligence, we talk a lot
about emotional contagion, whichis to say that, you know, the,
the person with power in theroom, ie the leader, the
teacher, whoever that is, theiremotions are contagious, people
look to them to set theemotional tone. And so thinking
about in schools, I'm wonderingif there was any talk about how

(38:11):
teachers were being supportedthe importance of supporting
teachers, not just for their ownwell being, but for the well
being of those that they leadand teach as well.

Claire Cain Miller (38:21):
This was mentioned a lot, and I'm glad
you brought it up. A lot of thecounselors said this was sort
of, you know, the number onething for exactly the reason you
say, and they were reallyworried that teachers weren't
being supported. Enough, it'sobviously been a hard two years
for teachers in very many ways.
From, you know, essentiallybeing workers that had to go in
person, and the fears aboutCOVID, to transitioning your

(38:42):
entire teaching style to online,and then the political fighting
between teachers, unions andparents about when schools would
reopen. And masking has justbeen really brutal. Teachers,
like all of us have lost peoplein the pandemic have worried
about, you know, their ownhealth of their family and
friends. And a lot of counselorssaid that they were fearful that

(39:02):
there hasn't been enoughsupport, this could look like
different things. What a few ofthem said is that, you know, for
teachers to be able to havemental health days and have
access to therapy themselves,and then have access to more
support in the classroom withteachers aides, and smaller
classes would all be reallyhelpful. Most of those things

(39:22):
aren't really available,especially in public schools,
there just isn't funding to givemore support in the classroom or
to give teachers more days off,or to give teachers therapy. So
it's not clear that this hasbeen done as much as it could,
but it's a really good pointthat it needs to and then the
other sort of piece of that thatcounselors mentioned is parents

(39:43):
and that parents need thissupport to there's been a lot of
work in the social emotionalfield, as you know, around the
role of buffering where even ifa kid has a traumatic event,
which you know, all kids inAmerica had some form of trauma
during the pandemic, that ifthere are adults in their lives,
who are equipped to show themunconditional love and support

(40:05):
and talk to them about theirexperience during the traumatic
event and help them cope withtheir feelings, that that
buffering role is really, reallypowerful, and that it can really
protect kids from the long termeffects of trauma in their
childhood. But parents who arealso experiencing the trauma of
the pandemic, and are alsoundergoing a great deal of

(40:28):
stress and loss and grief,perhaps homelessness and food
insecurity, perhaps just workingfrom home with their kids there
and you know, not being able tomanage doing three different
jobs at once. It's just reallyhard for parents to maintain
equanimity and to really be abuffering force when they are

(40:50):
experiencing their own stressand not being able to cope with
it. Some counselors in prettyhard hit communities, or under
resourced communities, expressedthat they weren't even sure that
parents, you know, realized howmuch stress was being passed on
to their kids, because they werejust in it, you know, they were
just trying, they're just tryingto get through the day, there's

(41:12):
only so much that they can do.
And so support for parents, theymentioned things like lessons,
you know, maybe even onlinelessons that the school could
provide links to videos on thesethings, workshops. But also
addressing basic needs, like,you know, financing for food

(41:33):
keeping, keeping schools openwith these free meals they've
been providing, even on dayswhen school is closed, helping
parents find housing, and thenalso making them aware of you
know, how their stress can bepassed on to the kids, but
really providing concreteresources so that they like
teachers can manage their ownstress and then be able to help.

Elizabeth Solomon (41:52):
Yeah, I was going to share with you that we
got a letter from my daughter'sthe head of my daughter's soccer
league last week. And I'm justgoing to read you the first
couple lines of that, becauseit's it's resonating with what
you're saying. Unfortunately,this weekend, we've seen an
uptick in poor sidelinebehavior, both from coaches and
from spectators. So they'retalking about adults. Can I

(42:14):
remind you, everyone that theseare mid level youth soccer
games, your child'sparticipation should be a fun,
stress free experience. Thereare no pro contracts being
handed out here. At no pointshould we have people
questioning abusing referees orcoaches spectators physically or
verbally assaulting each otherduring and after the game? I'm

(42:34):
reading this to you because itjust illuminates what you're
talking about, right? The rippleeffect of stress. And I'm
wondering, you know, you'vewritten a lot about working
mothers and gender differencesin the workforce. And I'm just
curious what other kinds ofrelationships you see between
some of the research that you'vedone in that area and the ripple

(42:56):
effect of parents stress tokids?

Claire Cain Miller (42:59):
Sure, but first I will I will say that
like a lot of these issues. Youknow, kids having anxiety that
had been increasing before thepandemic, right? Teachers being
burnt out that had beenhappening before the pandemic
parents getting, you know, tooangry on the sidelines of like,
very young kids sports wasalready happening. But the
pandemic seems to haveexacerbated a lot of these

(43:20):
issues. And it's no surprise,right, we're all under a lot of
stress. And some of the childpsychologists that I spoke to,
for this article said, a lot ofthe behaviors that were being
seen things like physical fightson the playground, or in some
cases, talking back or evenslapping teachers to sort of
like aggression and acting outis actually a symptom of

(43:43):
childhood anxiety or evendepression. It's the way that
children show that they'rehaving hard emotions. And I
think that that can be said ofadults, too, right. Some of
these adults who are on thesidelines, have not been able to
cope with their stress. I'mthinking of an article that ran
in the New York Times and Sundaybusiness by a colleague, Sarah
Lyle, and the headline, I lovedit so much. It was called a

(44:06):
nation on hold, wants to speakwith a manager. And it was a it
had this story about this manwho was shopping in a grocery
store for cheese and they didn'thave the cheese he likes and he
had a full on temper tantrum.
And then the person who workedin the grocery store said I
don't think it was about thecheese. But the sub headline of
this was in our anger filled agewhen people need to shop or

(44:28):
travel or cope with milddisappointment. They're quote
devolving into children. And Ithink that it sort of speaks to
exactly what you're talkingabout where you know, some of
these behaviors were seen inchildren were also seen in
adults and why it's so importantto be able to cope. To get to
your other question. You know,our country and this is
something that I've writtenabout a lot does not support

(44:49):
working parents in the ways thatother developed countries do and
that was true beforehand. Wehave no guaranteed pay family
leave, we have no guaranteedsubsidized or free universal
childcare. We have workplaceswhere it's really hard to get
part time work. And if you dowork part time, you're penalized

(45:11):
and pay way more than just, youknow, your pay being halved
you're penalized and promotions,we have a work culture that
really values people who workmore than eight hour days or
answering emails on weekends.
And these problems alreadyexisted, it was already really

(45:33):
hard to be a working parent inthe United States, particularly
a working mother because motherscarry the brunt of the
caregiving. They, you know,there's been a ton of research
around this worldwide that showswhen a child has a crisis, the
mother drops everythingimmediately and steps in. The
research has been done on youknow, childhood cancer and
really big crises. But I thinkand I've written about this, it

(45:56):
could be extended to thepandemic, when schools closed,
you know, fathers did a lot insome houses, fathers did most of
it. But for the most part,mothers dropped everything and
stepped in by default. It'sjust, you know, what we are
socialized to do. And so whatthe pandemic did is just
overflowed all of this. Soyou're still expected to do this
job that you already were sortof treading water to try to do

(46:19):
without these adequate supports,from society to have kids and a
job at the same time. And nowthose supports went away the
entire system at the beginning,as you'll recall, even though it
seems forever ago, went away,childcare centers closed,
schools closed, you couldn'thire a babysitter, you couldn't
have grandparents come in at thevery beginning, because there

(46:40):
was such a fear of how the virusspread, there were not vaccines,
so the entire system went away.
What I think is really worthtalking about right now, when it
comes to working parents is howthe system has not been rebuilt.
There's this expectation thatwe're back to normal schools are
open. childcare centers areopen, we have vaccinations. It's
like workplaces just expected inmany cases, and society just

(47:04):
expected like we're back tonormal. So do what you did
before. First of all, what whathappened before was not working.
But also it's not really back tonormal and anyone with young
kids. Your kids are sort ofpreteen and teen but same I'm
sure that you see this aftercareis not fully back to normal,
there's still social distancing,some places haven't, you know,

(47:25):
fully reopened.
There are staffing shortagesthat are sort of like an effect
of the pandemic, not a directeffect. But a secondary effect,
where there's not swim lessons,there's not people staffing
indoor play center. So they'renot open that these things that
kids used to do. There are stillpeople who, you know, are not
really comfortable seeinggrandparents or having

(47:46):
babysitters, because under fivekids are not yet vaccinated. And
over five kids who have theopportunity to be vaccinated are
still you know, in classroomswith 30 kids and getting these
exposures. It's just not fullyback to normal. And I think this
is a moment that is particularlystressful for working parents
who are expected to work as ifeverything is back to normal.

(48:08):
And it's really not. And thenagain, like I said, it wasn't
working before. So why go back?
Why is that even our ultimategoal?

Elizabeth Solomon (48:17):
You're making me think a little bit about
there was a study from HarvardUniversity, and I think 2014.
And basically what it showed isthat the message that we send,
particularly that parents sendto children about the value of
empathy, is actually underminedor drowned out by the message we
actually send, and that is thatwe value achievement above all

(48:37):
else. And I think, you know,that's being captured in some of
what you're saying, right nowthat we're a little bit in this
place where we're like, okay, wereally need to attend to people
emotionally, we actually need tocreate school systems and
workplaces where empathy is acore value. And, you know,
we're, we're practicing showingup for one another, and leaving
space for all the sort ofcomplicated emotions of what it

(48:58):
is to be human, particularlynow. And we have entire
structures like our entireeconomy, is built off of again,
achievement. And so I'm curiousif this is one of the ways that
you also see the issue or ifthere's another way that you
would frame that? No, I

Claire Cain Miller (49:16):
think that's absolutely true. It's one thing
for HR to say something, it'sone thing for management to say
something and for it to exist onthe books. It's another thing
for that to be there inpractice. I have done a lot of
reporting on paternity leave asan example of this. So when
companies put in paternityleaves, paid paternity leave for
new fathers, often fathers don'ttake it. And that's because they

(49:37):
feel that there's a stigmaagainst it, or there's too much
work to actually take it. Soit's not enough to just make a
policy. You have to reallychange the culture around that.
And I think this is one of thethings with mental health days.
A lot of again, white collarcompanies with a lot of benefits
have added mental health days orsaid that that some of the sick
time can be used for mentalhealth, meaning no questions

(49:59):
asked if you're over Stressburnt out, if you just need a
day to take care of yourself torest, you can do that. But then
people who I've interviewed forsome of this reporting, say,
okay, that's wonderful, but Idon't have time, I might have
too much on my plate at work,there's no way that I can take a
day off. Or if I actually toldmy boss, I was taking a mental

(50:19):
health day, they would rolltheir eyes, you know, they might
think that I'm not dedicatednext time, it comes up for
promotion. And so that's Yes, anexample of how you can pay lip
service to this. But culturalchange is harder, and it does
happen from the top down. So ina workplace, it really does make
a difference, if the very mostsenior managers say, I'm leaving

(50:43):
this all hands meeting early,because I have to pick up my kid
from school, or I'm taking thisweek off, because my kids out of
school and we're going on afamily vacation, it makes a
really big difference. Becauseif you see your boss doing that,
you feel more at liberty to dothat. And for kids, that is,
like you said about the familystructure and what parents are
modeling. So you know, one thingthat that child psychologist say

(51:07):
a lot is model, just taking abreak. If the parents are about
to lose their temper with thekid, that's fine, people lose
their temper, you don't need topretend that you don't, but you
can model I'm gonna go take abreak in my room right now I'm
gonna give myself a timeout. Andsometimes kids are sort of like,
startled by that, like, you taketimeout too. And it's like,
yeah, timeouts are not just likegetting in trouble. This is how

(51:27):
I'm going to go reset, I'm goingto take some deep breaths, and
I'm going to come back. Andwe're going to finish this
conversation when I'm equippedto do that. And that's just a
small example of how parents canmodel that that happens with
achievement, too, right? Some ofthe school counselors mentioned
that during the pandemicstandards were relaxed, because
there was a lot of, you know,empathy for kids learning from
home that that it was reallyhard to do, that they may have

(51:49):
had other family circumstancesthat made it even harder to do.
Kids aren't old enough to havethe independent discipline to
study on their own, you know,standards were relaxed. And some
counselors said they thinkstandards need to be increased a
little bit now that kids areback that kids need to be
reminded of the demands and therequirements of school and have

(52:10):
those that sort of scaffoldingin place. And those higher
expectations. And there's sometruth to that, right. But
there's also truth to saying,you know, what, you seem so
stressed right? Now, let's justnot worry about this math test.
Tonight. Let's not worry aboutthis homework tonight. Let's
prioritize this. And, you know,as adults, it's not either or,

(52:31):
as adults in children's lives. Ithink it's just important to
understand, you know, are theytrying to find a loophole to get
out of this? Or are they trulytoo stressed? And this is not
important right now. And we canmodel making those choices?
Because we have to make thosechoices as humans and as adults?
Like, do I actually need to justgo to bed tonight and finish
this work project in themorning? Or do I have the

(52:51):
capacity to keep doing thisright now? You know, it's a
useful skill for life. Andthat's something that I think
teachers and parents can modeland are trying to model for
children right

Liz Solomon (53:00):
now. I love what you said about the timeout.
That's a common technique I usewith myself. I'm like, I'm about
to flip my lid. So look at theclock right now. It's noon, and
I will be back in the kitchen at1215. And we can have an actual
discussion. Yeah, yeah,

Claire Cain Miller (53:14):
yeah, exactly.

Liz Solomon (53:16):
I'm curious. You know, looking forward, what are
you keeping an eye on as areporter? And what do you expect
in the school year ahead in thefall,

Claire Cain Miller (53:25):
it seems like school is going to be very
much back to pre pandemic normalnext year, we don't know what
the pandemic will do. But wehave now had schools open
through delta and Omicron. maskswere removed in many places for
the first time during Omicron.
So I wouldn't be surprised ifschools put into place more
closures or more restrictions.

(53:50):
I'm not saying what's right froma public health point of view.
That's not my expertise. But Iwould be surprised to see that
based on what we saw this year.
A lot of the counselors andteachers that I spoke with and
administrators said what theywhat they don't really want to
do is go back to entirely 2019normal, they would like more of
this social emotional teaching,this understanding of kids

(54:14):
anxiety and stress and makingspace for that providing
physical spaces for them to dealwith that they would like more
of that in the schools, theywould like less emphasis on
testing and more, you know,individualized understanding of
what kids are going through andagain, not letting them off the
hook, not lowering standards.

(54:36):
But just understanding thatbefore you can learn
academically you need to be in agood space in terms of your
mental health. However, I didtalk to a lot of teachers and
counselors and administratorswho are worried that these
things wouldn't happen becauseschools just don't have a lot of
room to make changes with publicschool budgeting and everything

(54:58):
else. Some of the things COVIDrelief funds that schools have
been able to use for extraresources like additional
counselors, therapists, some ofthese things that we've been
talking about today, those aregoing to go away, those were
temporary increases in fundingfrom the federal government as a
result of COVID. And won't last.
So I guess one thing I'll bekeeping an eye on is how social

(55:20):
emotional teaching expands orgrows or decreases, shrinks. And
also whether teachers are ableto take some of these learnings
from the past few years, abouthow children learn best about
you know, spaces that they cango sit on a beanbag to do their
work on, you know, it can besmall changes like that in

(55:42):
classrooms, like being able tosit on a beanbag, instead of in
your desk chair makes a reallybig difference. For some kids,
being able to bring a fidget toyour desk makes a really big
difference for some kids. So howthese kinds of things can be
integrated into the classroomwill be one thing. And then and
then a final thing is just howthe needs and burnout of
teachers is being addressed. Andhow that can happen either

(56:04):
through funding for more staff,through mental health days
through whatever it has to be,so that teachers can can be able
to be there and show up for

Elizabeth Solomon (56:14):
the kids. One last question. And that is, you
know, I think, obviously, we'vebeen talking in the framework of
the pandemic, right. But I'malso curious, do you think that
the rise in gun violence, massschool shootings, all of the
things that we've been seeing inthe news lately, do you feel
that this is influencing furtherinfluencing schools to take

(56:36):
social emotional learning andmental health more seriously?

Claire Cain Miller (56:39):
I really hope so. Of course, these things
that are happening, reallyaffect kids and really increase
anxiety. And one thing I heardfrom a lot of parents and
teachers and comments on mystory about the pandemic's
effect on social emotionalskills was, of course, kids are
anxious because they're alsoworried about school shootings,

(57:00):
which is extremely true, I wasrelieved to see in our survey,
that only 3% which is alreadyway too many, obviously. But it
was the least the smallesteffect, we saw 3% of counselor
said that there were moreinstances of bringing guns to
school. But of course, thesethings happen. And it's it's
simply horrific. I am very muchhopeful that schools find a way

(57:26):
both to realize that when kidsfall through the cracks, schools
are sort of like a frontline torecognize some of these
problems. And that's one reasonwe need counseling resources.
But also yes, to help kids copewith their fear and anxiety
around this, there's been a lotof concern, as I'm sure you've
heard about lockdown drills. Andwhether they're causing more
anxiety than help because theydon't always even work when

(57:49):
there is an incident. That's notmy area of expertise. But I'm
very much hoping that theincident in Texas and elsewhere
can force a look at what we'redoing in schools and how we're
helping kids cope. But you know,overall, needless to say, what I
wish is that that weren't evensomething that we needed to talk
about when

Elizabeth Solomon (58:08):
it came to schools. And one more question
about that. And this is kind ofa personal Parent to Parent
question more than anythingelse, you know, my daughter is
she's biracial, black. And so,you know, for her to hear about
the incredible amounts ofviolence linked to deep systemic
racism in this country. And tohear about school shootings,

(58:30):
there's definitely been a couplenights, you know, where she's
been like, is this going tohappen to me? And it's been
really challenging for me,because I feel this instinct to
be like, no, no, we live inWestern Massachusetts in this
really nice little liberal, safetown, you know. And I'm like, we
live in the world. And likeanything can happen at any
moment. And I don't want to sortof give her some sort of

(58:52):
sheltered unrealistic response.
And I'm just curious if you haveanything to say about this, or
maybe even a school counselorstalked about this, which is
being honest with kids aboutwhat is happening in this
country and the dangersassociated with some of that,
and also trying to give themconfidence that they have people
that are looking out for them.

Claire Cain Miller (59:13):
So I did talk to a lot of people after
Texas about this question. Andhonestly, with kids is really
important. They said, withthings like the pandemic, and
with racism, it's reallyimportant to be you know, not to
give too much information tohave kids tell you what they
know first and then wait forthem to ask questions before you
give them too much detail aboutthings like COVID But to answer

(59:36):
their questions and you know, behonest about the detail. Racism
is something that you know, nokid can avoid knowing about
especially a person of color andso from what I've heard and
reporting on that is you know,these conversations should never
be avoided because even if youthink by avoiding them, they
won't enter your kid's mind isjust not true. They do enter

(59:58):
kids minds from early in theirlives and so they need to be
talked about gun violence, Iheard something slightly
different, which is that it canbe very, very hard for young
kids to even contextualize that,to even, you know, go into a
school, a young elementarystudent, knowing that that is a
risk. And so to try to protectthe youngest kids, or really

(01:00:21):
think about what your kid canhandle, which you know, as a
parent, what how much they canhandle. For older kids, there
can be a trust issue, if theyhear it from friends first, and
friends on the internet, friendsof older siblings, you know,
they might hear it. So I didhear that if you think your kid
can handle it, you can tell themfirst but minimize the amount of
information. They don't need toknow the details of what

(01:00:43):
happened in Texas. And then theThe final thing I heard on that
is to reassure them, to theextent that it's accurate to
say, we chose to live in a statewhere you're not allowed to
carry a gun, if that is accurateand correct for your family. You
can say our school keeps thedoors locked during the day,
we're doing that to keep yousafe, if that's accurate for

(01:01:05):
your school. So talk about theways you can say this is rare,
and you can say the ways thatyour family and your school and
your community are working tokeep kids safe. But you know, of
course you have to be honest,there is no guarantee that
everyone is safe from this orfrom anything else.

Liz Solomon (01:01:22):
Claire, thank you so much for coming on the show
today and sharing all of yourwisdom with our listeners, so
I'm sure everyone's gonna get alot out of it. I know I did.

Claire Cain Miller (01:01:31):
Thank you so much for having me it was an
honor.

Kerry Seed (01:01:43):
That's our show.
Special thanks to Gwen and Kim,whose voices you heard at the
top of the show talking abouttheir experiences in schools and
to our guest Claire Kane Miller.
Her reporting is reallyfantastic. You can follow her on
Twitter at Claire cm that's atClaire cm. We also have the link
in the show notes on ourwebsite. First Person
plural.com. While you're there,you can check out guest BIOS

(01:02:05):
transcripts and resourcesmentioned in today's episode.
You can also follow us onInstagram at Keystep media. Of
course, we'd love it if youwould subscribe, rate and
review. And if you enjoyed ourdiscussion with Claire Kane
Miller, check out some of ourpast interviews. The last one
with George Cole razor had someincredible stories. Of course,

(01:02:26):
none of this would be possiblewithout our crack team. Our
hosts are Daniel Goleman HanumanGoleman and Elizabeth Solomon.
Bryant Johnson creates thebeautiful art you see with each
episode. Our intrepid audioeditor is Michelle Zipkin. This
is the last show she's going toedit for us. We wish you well in
all your future endeavors.
Michelle, you've just done abang up job here. So thank you
so much. Zarina Kardon doesmarketing Our music is by Amber

(01:02:50):
O'Hara and goes beats and I amCarrie seed. This podcast is
sponsored by Keystep media, yoursource for personal and
professional developmentmaterials focused on mindfulness
leadership and emotionalintelligence. We've got some
exciting things planned for youin the days ahead. So take care
of yourself and we'll talk soon