May 10, 2022 • 51 mins
This is the second conversation in our three part series on achievement, one of four self-management competencies in Dan Goleman’s framework of emotional intelligence.
Our guest, Peter Haberl, joined the United States Olympic Committee in 1998. In his current position as senior sport psychologist, he provides individual and team consultations and mental training sessions to various national team athletes with a specific specialization in team sports. Haberl has enjoyed the privilege of having worked at nine Olympic Games, four Pan American Games, and one Paralympic Games with U.S. athletes. Prior to joining the Olympic Movement in the U.S., Haberl played professional ice hockey in Austria. Born in Austria, Haberl received his bachelor’s degree in sports science from the University of Vienna, Austria. He later earned his master's degree in counseling and his Ed. D. in counseling psychology at Boston University. A licensed psychologist, Haberl focuses on mindfulness and ACT-based interventions. He enjoys using his daughter’s art work in his presentations.
In this episode, Peter Haberl joins Liz Solomon to discuss how US Olympic athletes, coaches and staff unlock achievement within the system of their teams.
Daniel Goleman talks about his Emotional Intelligence Courses, available at danielgolemanemotionalintelligence.com
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Unknown (00:00):
Is there something you'd say that you're pretty
good at?
I would say I'm good at dancing.
I like to do ballet. Okay.
Is there something in balletdance specifically that you want
to get better been working on toimprove that?
I want to work on myparallettes.
For those that don't take anydance classes? What is a pair of
(00:24):
weta pair? What is a type of turd
dance?
Oh, okay. And why do you want toget better at doing parallettes?
I want to get better at doingparallettes. Because if you're
at a competition, and you wantto get extra points that the
judges might say you didsomething good. And then say
(00:46):
bye, add extra points. Oh,okay. And how does it feel to
get better at something? Or ifyou've been working on doing a
parallel? How does it feel foryou?
It feels good to accomplishsomething because you've worked
hard on it. And yeah.
Elizabeth Solomon (01:03):
Oh, okay.
Unknown (01:05):
Is there any advice for any future dancers out there
that want to take a class oralso working on their
parallettes? What would you sayto them?
I would say, just practice andbe patient. Because if you're
not really patient, then maybeyou would like, want to give up
and stop working on it.
Oh, that's a great advice. Thankyou so much for sharing your
(01:29):
thoughts with us.
You're welcome. Bye, bye.
Hanuman Goleman (01:42):
Hey, this is Hanuman Goleman. Hi there, this
is the list of solid.
Daniel Goleman (01:46):
Hi, this is Daniel Goleman, you're listening
to
Hanuman Goleman (01:49):
first person plural emotional intelligence
and beyond. This is the secondin a three part series about
achievement orientation. And forthis episode, we're looking at
what achievement means insystems,
Daniel Goleman (02:03):
there's two things I like to say about that.
One is the Dalai Lama urgeseveryone to do whatever they can
to make the world a betterplace. Even if they won't live
to see the fruits of theiractions. Just as you say, the
fruits may come way later thanyou know, after you're no longer
around. The other is, I likevery much putting the individual
(02:24):
achievement in the context ofthe system is a system give you
the causes and conditions thatsupport that achievement, and
lift it to the level of successor not. Because when we talk
about achievement, I think wetend to look at the individual,
not at the system context inwhich the individual is working,
(02:46):
or operating. And you need bothto come together.
Elizabeth Solomon (02:49):
I think about you know, I think about that for
organizations to who arestruggling right now with when
the purpose movement, you know,saying how do I sort of let go
of my fiscal or financial goals,these goals that my entire
structure of my organization isbuilt around upholding and
supporting? How do I put thosegoals aside or focus on those
(03:09):
secondarily to my social orsocietal goals? And that's a
that's a that's a hard thing tochange?
Daniel Goleman (03:14):
Well, I'm not sure it's either or, I'm
thinking of like TOMS Shoes thatgives away a pair of shoes for
every pair you buy. Their modelis profit and purpose, not
profit or purpose. And I thinkmost businesses that want to
survive need to do both.
Hanuman Goleman (03:34):
This system that we're talking about
specifically, this conversationis with Peter Gabriel, who works
with Olympic teams.
Elizabeth Solomon (03:42):
Peter has been with the United States
Olympic Committee since 1998. Inhis current position as senior
sports psychologist, he providesindividual and team
consultations and mentaltraining sessions to various
national team athletes with aspecific specialization in team
sports. Peter has enjoyed theprivilege of having worked at
(04:03):
nine Olympic Games for PanAmerican Games, and one
Paralympic games with usathletes. Prior to joining the
Olympic movement in the UShaberle played professional ice
hockey in Austria. Born inAustria, Peter received his
bachelor's degree in SportScience from the University of
Vienna. He later earned hismaster's degree in counseling,
(04:26):
and is ed in CounselingPsychology at Boston University.
A licensed psychologist Peterfocuses on mindfulness and act
based interventions, which is anacronym for Acceptance and
Commitment Therapy. Welcome toour show today, Peter, we're so
excited to have you here.
Peter Haberl (04:44):
Thanks for having me, Elizabeth.
Elizabeth Solomon (04:46):
How do you talk about yourself and what you
do my elevator
Peter Haberl (04:49):
pitch is I help athletes understand how the mind
works in competition so they canwork with it. That obviously
then begs the question How doesthe mind work? And
metaphorically, the mind worksas a thought and emotion
producing factory that comeswith a built in thief. And this
(05:14):
built in thief steal somethingthat's really precious for
athletes who precious forOlympic athletes. And when I
asked my Olympic athletes Hey,what is it, the thief steals? I
pretty consistently get the sameanswer. Pretty much everybody
says the thief stealsconfidence. So there's this
(05:37):
sense of in order to besuccessful, I have to be
confident at the Olympic Games.
And I actually disagree withthat statement, the thief steals
something that's much moreprecious for for the athletes,
the thief steals attention. Tome, attention is the currency of
performance. So when whenathletes perform well, at the
(05:58):
games, what is always present istheir ability to be present to
be focused, to be in the moment.
And that actually can be doneirrespective of what feelings
are shown.
Elizabeth Solomon (06:14):
I love that distinction between focus and
confidence. One of the ways thatDan talks about achievement
orientation and his model isthat it's not really just about
getting things done for the sakeof getting things done right or
winning for the sake of winning.
But it's really aboutcultivating clarity,
determination, and resilience.
(06:37):
And I'm wondering, you know, asyou're talking about focus, and
presence, how that helps withthese pieces around clarity,
determination, and resilience,and how you see that playing out
with your athletes,
Peter Haberl (06:49):
determination, charity, resilience, through my
lens, those are attitudes ofmind, so to speak, and those
attitudes of minds is somethingI can cultivate. And in my
environment annual begins, youknow, speaking of achievement,
(07:09):
getting things done, there isthis great desire, obviously, to
get someplace to get to biggains, and to win a medal, and
then to win the gold medal. Sothat outcome orientation is
always present, and to a certainextent, has to be present. But
(07:32):
that outcome orientation alsocomes with a dark side. And the
dark side is again, that it canundermine one's ability to stay
present. Because the mind thatthought and emotion producing
factory can easily get trappedin Am I actually on track
(07:52):
towards that goal? Or am Irunning into obstacles wherever
the obstacle may be? And when Irun into an obstacle, running to
D tool, so to speak, clarity,resilience, and determination
are what's called for and wherethey need to navigate that
obstacle.
Elizabeth Solomon (08:13):
What are some of the obstacles that you find
that athletes specifically atthe Olympic level run into?
Peter Haberl (08:20):
Well, the first one that I will come back to,
again, is just this myth that Ihave to have positive feeling to
be successful, right. So thisidea of when I perform well, at
the games, I'm in a positivestate of mind, I'm relaxed and
confident, I don't have anydoubt whatsoever. I believe in
(08:40):
myself. In my experience, thatis a complete myth, A and B,
it's actually rathercounterproductive. Confidence is
a feeling state. And like allfeeling states, they're very
fleeting. And that one's leadingto and at the games,
(09:00):
particularly that state, a maynot materialize or be may
disappear. And then when youthink, then I have to generate
the right feelings to besuccessful, then you're actually
in big trouble, as opposed to,can I be in charge of my
attention, irrespective how Ifeel? And then can I take
(09:23):
actions that are perhaps guidedby determination and resilience?
Elizabeth Solomon (09:28):
You're starting to touch on something
that I'm both like fascinatedand perturbed by, which is what
I call spiritual bypassing,which I think shows up sometimes
in this realm of positivepsychology, right? And it
touches on what you're saying oflike, we cultivate our reality
through manifesting continuouspositive thoughts. Right. And so
I think you're touching onsomething that I think is really
true, which is that there's ashadow side to kind of forcing
(09:53):
ourselves into one way offeeling or thinking and
sometimes that is that we denythings that are actually under
the surface are we like we ceaseto be an integrated and whole
person? I'm wondering what whatyou think athletes, for the most
part do not want to feel at theOlympic Games?
Peter Haberl (10:11):
I actually asked him that question. How do you
not want to feel that the games?
And I do, they're sort ofexperientially, so I put, you
know, 50 mood cards on thefloor. And I asked him, just
pick the cards that capture howyou don't want to feel, you
know, positive and unpleasant,more, say so. So the whole range
of emotions. And across theboards, they will pick, they
(10:34):
will take mood states don't wantto feel they're uncomfortable.
They don't want to feelpressured. They don't want to
feel tense. They don't want tofeel nervous. They don't want to
feel anxious. They don't want tofeel afraid. And then ask them,
okay, so why do you not want tofeel this way? And again, the
answer I get 100% of the timeis, well, if I feel this way, I
(10:57):
will not perform well. Alright,that makes sense. So then I'll
show him some quotes fromathletes. And this is my
favorite one here is the athletegoes. It's the only way to
describe it. It feels like agallows. So it feels like you're
about to be hung. Right beforethe lobby final, right? Do you
(11:20):
want to feel like this guy? Theanswer is no, I don't want to
feel like this guy. All right,that makes sense. Okay, so we're
gonna show you who this guy is.
And this guy happens to be a guynamed Chris Hawaii, actually
surplus Hawaii because he gotknighted by the British, or the
queen is a British track cyclistwho was one six gold medals. At
(11:44):
the will begins describing howhe felt before his first Final
Adobe games. This was in 2004.
In Athens, in an event calledthe kilos, this is a time trial,
1000 meters on the track. And hehappened to be the reigning
world champion. And if you'dreally world champion, you get
to go last in the event. So yousee everybody else's time clock
(12:06):
in. And for you the last fourguys broke up can the world
record right before him right?
Before he has to go. So he hasto process all that. So in that
moment, it felt really, reallystressful for him, right? But
that feeling is actually sonormal. Because if the outcome
(12:29):
matters to you, and the outcomeis uncertain. Guess what
emotional states will show up,almost by definition,
uncomfortable once we feelconfident when we have
certainty. But the OlympicGames, they serve up
uncertainty. And then he addedmeaning piece to it. Right? This
(12:51):
means that we're also them,they've trained for this event
for 12 years, or longersometimes, then uncomfortable
feelings will show up. So can Ibe open to those uncomfortable
feelings and not get derailed bythem. And Chris Hoy actually is
all about our feet. He talksabout when he felt like the
gallows what came next. So hetalks about, he was sitting on
(13:15):
the saddle of the bike,adjusting his helmet, gripping
the handlebar, stepping into thepedals, hearing the countdown of
the clock, 10 987, and so forth.
So all those things, our senseperceptions, so we tunes into
his sense perceptions to bepresent. And again, he can do
(13:36):
that in the presence ofuncomfortable feelings. All of a
sudden, those feelings actuallywill not matter anymore.
Elizabeth Solomon (13:47):
What you're talking about is really I'm
thinking about flow state. Wewant just enough stress, right
to sort of create that sense ofalertness, aliveness, that sense
of wanting, but not so much thatwe tip over into a place of
feeling completely flooded andoverwhelmed. And I'm wondering
how you talk about that withyour athletes of what the right
(14:07):
amount of discomfort is,
Peter Haberl (14:09):
when I as an athlete, think at the games I
need to be in this flow state,right? Then I am grasping for
something that might actuallynot happen. And was interested
in seeing I think, from this,you know, achievement motivation
perspective that you mentioned,is because the outcome is so
(14:30):
important for the athlete, theoutcome is so tangible work,
it's so close they want and somuch that that desire for the
outcome can actually impairagain, their ability to be
present. And with that comesloss desire. Again, I should be
in this flow state, right. Andthen there's this
misunderstanding that in flow, Iactually won't have
(14:51):
uncomfortable feelings,
Elizabeth Solomon (14:53):
right. The very nature of the word kind of
implies a false reality. It's sointeresting. Yeah,
Peter Haberl (14:58):
yes. And I think I think so. It's a mistake that my
field makes in trying to sellmindfulness as a tool to get
into flow, add up games. To me,there's a fundamental
misunderstanding of mindfulness.
It's not about feeling a certainway, I want to ask
Elizabeth Solomon (15:17):
you about something that you brought up.
In our first discussion, when wehad our pre interview, and you
were talking about, you broughtyour athletes on retreat. And I
would love to have you sharethat story with our listeners,
and tell us a little bit aboutthat experience
Peter Haberl (15:34):
is the women's women's water polo team. And
just little bit of the history,the team has won a gold medal in
2012. In London, and the goldmedal in 2016. In Rio, with the
same coach, I've had theprivilege to work with Coach
editor, Korea now for since2008. So long time. And we've
always done some mindfulnesswork with with the team. And
(15:58):
over the years, I always kindof, in a joking way, suggested
to Adam, hey, wouldn't it becool to take the team to a salad
retreat. And he always blew meoff, there's this like, really
crazy idea, there's no way we'regoing to do that. And, you know,
just think about it, like, youknow, which coach can give you
(16:18):
seven to 10 days of trainingtime to go to a place and just
sit and not do anything at allright? But from my own
experience, you know, havinghaving done sand retreats, I
just thought this is like atraining camp for the mind. And
this idea of a training camp,that's obviously the language of
(16:39):
the athlete, right. They'refamiliar with training camps,
where you can modify volume andintensity of a training load.
And I think one way to look atthe sun retreat is to look at
this qualification of volume andintensity of working with with
your mind. So when we won in2016, you know, another gold
(17:02):
medal, then we win two worldchampionships. So we know going
to Tokyo will be the favorite.
And when you're the favorite,one thing that happens is a
particular mental state comesup. And that is precisely
confidence. And you have thisthis aura of invincibility, and
this aura of inevitabilityaround you. And when Adam and I
(17:27):
spoke, you know, we both knewthat that feeling of confidence,
and that aura of invincibilitywould get tested at the games,
for sure. No matter how manygames we win prior to it, we
thought a test would come. Andwe would then face very
(17:51):
different emotions, emotionsthat perhaps we hadn't felt in a
long time. Because we haven'tlost a lot. So just to give an
idea, I think going into theTokyo Games, our record was Ada,
one with one ADA games last onein that time span of three
years. So we thought, that auraof invincibility, that aura of
(18:16):
inevitability would getchallenged. And we want to
prepare for that. So somewhat tomy surprise in 2018. Adam said,
Peter, let's do it. Meaning,let's do the retreat. You were
like finally. Yeah, finally,Yes, finally. But I was also I
was very scared. And also veryscared. Just because of this
(18:37):
wasn't something that theathletes were going to volunteer
for, and say, oh, yeah, cool.
Let's go, let's go do amindfulness retreat for seven
days in silence, without phones,without connection to the
outside world, and withouttalking to each other. So I got
nervous about that, you know,how they would sort of handle
it. With in our preparation,we'd always done some kind of
(19:01):
physical challenge. Like in2012, we spent a day with the
Navy Seals and Coronado in2016 2015, we hiked Pikes Peak
here in Colorado Springs. Sowhen you're 14,000 foot
mountain, but those challengeswere more physical. This time,
we're looking more at a mentalchallenge. And one thing that
(19:24):
was really fascinating is whenwhen we arrived at our retreat
setting, we sort of created ourown retreat here in the
mountains in Colorado Springsplace called bison peak. When
the players arrived, you couldtell they were nervous. They
were intimidated. They wereworried. And they were scared.
(19:45):
And Eric actually talked aboutit that he hadn't seen them feel
that way, in a long, long time.
Right. And then we actually bothlooked at each other as is. Now
we're here. Let's go. And wefelt the same way. about the
games, right? So, yes, we canfeel really these unpleasant
emotions, and then thenbasically get to work. So we
(20:06):
spent seven days at the sushiplace in silence, sitting,
walking, eating by yourself,doing your yoga chores, all that
good stuff. Having wonderfulguides enjoyed Brewer. And then
at the end of the seven days, weagain added a physical challenge
(20:27):
to the event. We climbed 314years in one day,
Elizabeth Solomon (20:34):
what was the outcome of that experience for
the participants? What were someof their feedback and their
comments? Well,
Peter Haberl (20:40):
the goal is we had said, we want to pay the team
for the stones that were ahead,they will come and ahead, we
didn't know we had COVID on thehorizon, we didn't know that the
games will be postponed, we knowall the players had to add on
another year of training, youknow, to get to the games. So we
didn't foresee those charges.
And then then at the games, inour third game, in Round Robin,
(21:03):
we actually lost to Hungary 10to nine. So not a second loss.
And it was a long time. And theteam that we had last year in a
long time. And as we weredebriefing this afterwards, as
the coaches were debriefing thisafterwards, with with the
players after the game, wasreally interesting, because a
(21:25):
they talked about the pressurethey felt as the favorite. And
then there was also this tenerthat, hey, we're at the Olympic
Games, we should just enjoyourselves. And we thought, this
is exactly what we prepared for,right? This desire now to feel
the right way. So for us, it wasworth remembering that we have
(21:50):
prepared for this moment forthis exchange. And we want to be
open to these emotions, and notactually grasp for a particular
mental state, such as joy,because truth be told, if you're
the favorite at the OlympicGames, if you expect it to win,
Joy hardly ever shows up. Right?
(22:15):
So then grasping for joy wouldbe a mistake. And then we met
again that evening. And againhad a conversation about that.
And then in the end, Adam hadthis big whiteboard in his dorm
space, so to speak. And then hewrote a few words on the board.
And the rules were play theright way. And that may sound
(22:40):
meaningless here, or maybetrivial. But when he wrote that
on the board, the players knewexactly what he meant. The
players knew exactly how thatwould translate to action in the
water action in the pool, asopposed to how they were
supposed to feel playing theright way. Right has everything
(23:04):
to do with how they have trainedthemselves, how they play
together, how they help eachother, how they're connected in
the water, how they fight eachother, and how they fight for
each other in the water. So theyknew exactly what this meant.
And really, to violence. Thiswas like this perfect behavioral
(23:24):
cue that Adam gave them. So itwas just brilliant coaching
really, right. And by givingthem that play the right way
that showed a way out of youhave to feel the right way,
which again, through my lenswould have been a trap.
Elizabeth Solomon (23:41):
I'm curious as we're talking about team
sports and team achievement. Sothinking about a sport like
swimming, for example, right,where individuals are part of a
team, and yet they're alsocompeting against one another.
I'm curious, just to talk alittle bit about that tension
between being teammatesachieving towards a goal, and
(24:02):
also being competitors, orindividuals who are vying for
the same price, this section
Peter Haberl (24:07):
that I find quite fascinating, and I'm gonna have
attention to you. But America isoften described as a very
selfish country, right? Whereyou just focus on yourself, get
rich, and so forth. Butinterestingly enough, if you
look at the Olympic Games,America is the best team sport
country. So nobody wins moreteam sport medals at the games,
(24:30):
then you asked us. So what I'mtrying to get at is one thing
that we figured out in the teamsport side, when when we do it
right. Is is that balancebetween valuing individualism,
because that's actually alsonecessary to perform on teams,
and then valuing that connectionand that sacrifice for the
(24:53):
greater good of the team. So onething we do with the water polo
team is we have this traditionThere's cultural tradition and
call it that the head ceremonywhen we win the game, we have a
player, at some point in timewas rewarded for having made a
contribution to the team'sperformance. And then this
player who has the hat, she willpass it on to somebody else on
(25:16):
the team. And so she will pick ateammate, who has made a
significant contribution to thesuccess of the team in this last
game, right. And what's been funwith this team is over the years
is they have gotten so good atthis ceremony that before they
actually named the player thatgot a name, they go through half
(25:37):
the team, and praising them forsomething they did in the game.
So they're just very alert andin tune with the contributions
teammates make, and what thatmatters, the team and in the
process really sort of create aculture of fondness and
appreciation. That's just reallyimportant to think, for teams to
(25:58):
be successful.
Elizabeth Solomon (25:59):
Mm hmm.
Certainly. And I'm thinking ofall of our listeners out there
who work in the organizationalspace, right, and are often
thinking about how do werecognize people in a way that
both honors their individualitybut also honors their
contribution to somethinglarger? I want to ask about, you
know, what do you feel like youlearned thinking about Simone
Biles experience and Tokyo. I'mcurious to hear from you, Peter,
(26:21):
what you sort of took away fromthat, and how that influenced
the way you help athletesprepare for Beijing?
Peter Haberl (26:29):
Well, first of all, I don't know Simone, and I
don't work with her. So this isjust sort of my view from a
distance here. But what I tookaway from her experiences was
other athletes in the role offavorite is the importance of
preparing for an onslaught ofunpleasant emotional states at
(26:49):
the games, A and B. I thinkthere's a sense of that, I think
Simone spoke about this verycandidly, and courageously of
having a sense of, I have to dothis for somebody else. So the
sense of, I have to win, for mycountry, or for my culture, for
(27:11):
my family, whatever it may befor the fans, right, that
athletes can get trapped in. Soit again comes back this idea of
the mind as a thought andemotion producing factory
athletes, when they start out inthe sport, almost always, they
do it because they enjoy thesport, they enjoy the being of
(27:33):
it. And then what changes in theenvironment of the games is the
meaning that we give to themedal. So if I win the medal,
everybody in my surroundingswill be happy, and I will be
happy. So the psychologist PaulBloom at Yale says that we are
(27:56):
essentialist that we tend togive something an essence, that
actually might not be there. AndI think we for sure do that with
the Olympic medal, you know, wegive it an essence. So if I win
the medal that I am somebody,and this gets back to me to,
again, your comment earlier onabout resilience and
(28:16):
determination. So what I mean bythat is resilience determination
are basically value propositionsthey are about how to carry
myself, right. So goals areabout getting something getting
somewhere. Values are about howdo I want to be in this moment?
(28:39):
How do I want to carry myself inthis moment? What do I want to
stand for in this moment? Sogoals are a destination, values
or a direction. And what'simportant for me now in
preparation for Paris, with myteams against being very mindful
of how easy it is to get suckedinto the outcome goal, and to
(29:03):
counterbalance that with anongoing conversation about
values, right, so what do youwant to stand for? So let's say
I want to be determined, right?
He says, I want to bedetermined, that translates into
specific actions in a moment tomoment basis. And I can use
those actions again, to aid theanchors of the present moment,
(29:26):
but also then guide my behavior,respect, irrespective of how I
feel. So when the onslaught ofemotions comes at the games, for
an athlete, can I be open tothat? And then not get caught up
in the outcome, but remindmyself of how I want to carry
(29:47):
myself in the space.
Elizabeth Solomon (29:52):
Now there's something that I'm thinking of
as you're talking, which is, andit's, you know, I'm sort of
tracking the parallels betweenwhat you're talking about in
that order. conversationalspace, right. And the difference
between an organization that ishyper focused on winning or
profit. So however you want todefine that, and an organization
that is actually more focused ona mission and values, and
thinking about how they show upeach day in the marketplace and
(30:14):
with their employees. And I'mcurious, you know, I think it's
quite easy. And I say this, youknow, in a very self effacing
way, I see it in myself to sortof think, to live in that
mindset of like, if I get X, themetal, what have you, then I'll
be happy, then I will haveachieved then I'll have some
(30:36):
sort of mythical state of beingthat I've been aiming for. And
I'm just wondering, when you seepeople who do you know, when the
gold medal reached that goal,what are some of the emotional
states that you see them gothrough afterwards?
Peter Haberl (30:53):
Well, very often, it's elation. Sometimes, it's
also a sense of relief, right.
And sometimes there's this senseof desolation, will carry
forward. And that's where it canget difficult to think for
Olympic athletes. Because theafter right, emotions, they come
and they go, they don't stay. Sothe unpleasant ones don't stay.
(31:18):
The pleasant ones don't stayeither, right. And the more the
more I want to cling to thepleasant ones, the more likely
they are to sort of move on,right? And then there's danger
of forgetting what actuallygenerated those pleasant
emotions. And very often whatgenerates them is some specific
(31:41):
actions that you as an athletetook over a very long period of
time. And again, it's worthdoing deck that question of what
we want to stand for, and whatare my values is an important
question for athletes to ponder.
And it's not something where youjust sort of come up with a
(32:01):
quick answer, it's something Ithink you want to sit with it a
bit, and chew one of the bit andsort of see what arises.
Elizabeth Solomon (32:09):
It's like your identity becomes entwined
with the, quote, unquote,succeeding, and I really hear
you encouraging people to thinklike, how do you want to show up
as a leader, as an athlete inyour sport that actually has
nothing to do with whether ornot you win the medal. It's
about how you came into thegame, the attitude with which
you came into the game, thevalues and how you live that out
(32:32):
and what you demonstrated. I'mwondering how the larger US
Olympic team observes the needsof its high achieving athletes,
and how would you even citethose needs? How would you talk
about those?
Peter Haberl (32:45):
Well, I think first and foremost, again, it's
this idea of, you know, lookingat the athlete as a human being
right, rather than a machinethat produces metals. And I
think, you know, one thing thatmy organization has done quite
well over the last few yearsthat you've emphasized mental
health, and put a whole stafftogether to address a that need
(33:06):
and also just to have aconversation about it. And we
certainly seen a lot of athletesalso having that conversation
that I think actuallyreverberates, you know, through
society at large then, because Ithink, historically, for a long
time, that's not a conversationthat we had, right, that you can
(33:27):
talk about mental health, justlike your physical health, and
that you can take steps toaddress mental health. And
there's actually courageous todo so. Right. And again,
obviously, Simone Biles has donesome excellent work in that
space. I think by addressingthat,
Elizabeth Solomon (33:44):
how does the team create a culture of
tenacity?
Peter Haberl (33:47):
That's a good question that gets back again at
this idea of values. So hervalues defined, enact values are
defined as a desired globalquality of an ongoing action.
Right, so desired, Sunday chooseokay. It's not a rule that
someone imposes on you. It'ssomething that you choose. So
(34:11):
you use the verb tenacity,tenacious, right? Tenacious, I
can choose to be tenacious, insay, you know, with a whirlpool
team in the pool, I can chooseto be tenacious, in the strength
conditioning session. I canchoose to be tenacious in a
seven day silent retreat. Whenmy mind says I don't want to be
(34:31):
here. Why are we doing this?
Right? I can choose to betenacious.
Elizabeth Solomon (34:36):
I'm so curious. I'm thinking about that
inner critic and thinking about,you know, the life stories of
your athletes. To what degree dosome of your athletes think that
that is like innate, somethingthat they can identify having
lived with their entire lives?
To what degree does that comefrom external forces such as the
environment or culturalmessaging? I'm just I'm curious
about that.
Peter Haberl (34:57):
I think a big part of my job is to normalised the
internal critic, one of myfavorite quotes is from, from
Rafael Nadal, from hisautobiography, and he goes on
what a battle hardest in atennis match is the quiet the
voices inside my head. That'sthe critic to shut everything
(35:18):
out. But the contest itself,that's nearing potential to
concentrate every atom of mybeing on the point I'm playing.
Let's focus on the moment now asthe tension, currency of
performance. If I made a mistakeon the prior point, this is
(35:38):
where the critic comes in.
Right? He says, Let it go. Sothinking about the past isn't
going to help. He goes on, if athought of victory suggest
itself, crush it. So you have anathlete who's aware, there's an
internal dialogue going on witha thought and most specifically
does all day long or mind offersof thoughts that were very
(36:00):
simple exercise to prove thepoint, or grab a stopwatch. And
I tell my athletes, once I pressstart, don't have any more
thoughts. And the moment thefirst stop pops up, just raise
your right hand, right? Ready,say go. Three seconds in the
hands pop up the first arcaneand innovate it all, on its own,
(36:21):
didn't choose to have it, youhave no control over your
thoughts, right. So we have anathlete here, no doubt, all
aware of that internal dialogue.
Where if I get sucked into that,it's actually not helping. So
with that awareness, right, thenI can choose where to put my
attention. In his case,concentrate every atom of your
(36:45):
being on the point you'replaying. So he wants to see the
tennis ball. That's differentfor Simone Biles. That's
different for a wrestler, that'sdifferent for a water polo
player, but they all know wherethey want to put their
attention, when it comes time tocompete. So in attention to the
kinds of performance and then ofcourse, stuff happens, mistake
(37:06):
in the past thoughts will comeup as the factory does, can now
be aware of that, that pool intothe past, or being hijacked in
the future, right? A thought ofvictory. It's a pleasant
thought. It's a nice feeling.
But it's not going to help himplay the next point. What
matters is going to come backand focus on the next point,
right? In order to do that, Igot to see how that thought is
(37:28):
trying to hijack me into thefuture. You know, I'd
Elizabeth Solomon (37:32):
love to have you tell me when you're looking
at a team and maybe it's intraining, or maybe it's in
competition itself, and you'reseeing a team of people where
everybody is focused on thatpresent moment, right? Crushing
any focus on the goal, and alsonot letting thoughts of the past
intrude, in that present momentattune to one another, working
(37:52):
as a kind of Symphony, what isthe feeling that you have, as
someone witnessing that?
Peter Haberl (37:57):
Will you use an interesting phrase, there's
symphony. That's what it feelslike. It feels like all the
notes are being hit just theright way. And it flows. And
it's connected. It's this rhythmto it, right? That you see on
the team, and then it becomesquite magical. And I think like
(38:19):
for the water polo team, therewere moments like that in the
gold medal game, when wheneverything just clicked right
off the get go. And again, thatcomes again after years and
years of training, actually. Butthen when it happens, it's
almost palpable, tangible, and Ithink symphonies really great
(38:41):
word to capture. They're
Elizabeth Solomon (38:43):
also curious just to talk a little bit about
the role of trust in teamachievement. And I'm wondering
if you can share with us anystories of where a betrayal of
trust has occurred and how youhave helped your athletes
overcome that?
Peter Haberl (39:00):
I think the marriage researcher John Gottman
has really helpful model I thinkthat also applies to leadership
in team sports. You know, hesays that all relationships have
conflict. And there are some ofus who are masters at conflict,
and some of us are disasters,the disasters of conflict,
they're causing the FourHorsemen of the Apocalypse,
(39:24):
criticism, contempt,defensiveness and stonewalling.
And then we have the antidotes,causing, you know, a soft
startup culture of appreciation,taking responsibility, and then
having the ability to toregulate your emotions to self
soothe. So I think we canactually practice those those
(39:46):
elements and again, we canbecome aware of the horseman, so
sometimes trust will getviolated, right? That's a moment
of conflict and trust in a wayis to me is like it onion in
many layers, we can take layersoff, and we can put layers on.
And over the course of a season,right, we can, again work on
(40:10):
building that onion, and addinglayers to it. And if there's a
violation of trust, to have aconversation about it, right, so
part of my job, my work is tocreate a space where the
athletes can talk with eachother, rather than me talking at
them. So very often, I will tryto create that space for them,
(40:35):
where they can speak with eachother. And then we can build on
those layers of onions. So itdoesn't get to a place where it
becomes irreparable. So it'svery much a proactive approach,
as opposed to a reactiveapproach to something that
happened.
Elizabeth Solomon (40:50):
My last question for you is just, you
know, thinking again, about thisexperience of identifying as an
athlete identifying as someonewho achieves identifying as the
winner of a gold medal, I wonderif you can tell us a little bit
what happens for many athleteswhen they're done competing?
Peter Haberl (41:09):
Well, from a research perspective, that
depends a bit whether thattransition is is voluntary or
involuntary. So involuntary isyou know, you have an injury and
you have to retire. Involuntaryis when you get cut from a team,
and you don't make your OlympicGames, you know, want your use
when you might reach your goals,and then choose to move on, so
(41:30):
forth. So I think it's nodifferent than you might see in
the organizational space, youknow, when someone gets laid off
or chooses to leave anorganization, that piece plays
into it, what will come next Aand B, as a sort of transition
all of these athletes identity,you know, who am I? Right? And
(41:55):
what's helpful there is a tounderstand you're more than just
an athlete, right? That's justsort of a label that you have.
In from a mindfulnessperspective, there's just this
idea of a selfie you may have,but that idea of self is
actually not that real. Leadingand then you have fleeting, yes,
(42:18):
fleeting, right. And then comingback again, to the values
question, you know, I'm thinkingback to in 2019, I had the
chance to be in Cape Town withone of my sports. And at the end
of the tournament, I got tovisit Robben Island, where
Nelson Mandela was incarceratedfor, I think, 18 or 27 years in
(42:38):
prison. And then I'm readingthis this article in The New
York Times where they shared aletter, Nelson Mandela had
written to his wife Winnie,talking about how he used the
cell as his meditation space tosort of investigate how he would
define success, a, and what'sgood about him. So when were
(43:01):
qualities or strength, or goodabout him that he wanted to
cultivate. And obviously, whenyou're in prison for that long,
with no hope of ever gettingout, right? To hear him sort of
share their story and usingtheir time to reflect on himself
to reflect on what he wanted tostand for, right? How he wanted
(43:23):
to say educate his fellowinmates about politics, how he
was going to, you know,cultivate a relationship with
with the the jailers, and learntheir language, their culture,
so we communicate with them. Sofor me, that story, he came back
(43:43):
to the values piece right inreconnecting with that, and then
again, using values to guideone's behavior, rather than
using some kind of identity toguide your behavior. Right. So
he didn't see himself as aprisoner. As opposed to
something really different. AndI think that's also important
(44:05):
for athletes to keep in mind,right? How did I carry myself
or, you know, thinking of thegreat Norwegian Olympian, you
weren't all of course, who youknow, after winning three gold
medals, retired and then formthe humanitarian organization
right to play. Right. So there'smuch that transfers, I think,
(44:25):
from their experience as anathlete to the next step in
their careers.
Elizabeth Solomon (44:30):
Peter, thank you so much. Is there anything
else that you want to add orthat you feel that we haven't
touched on in our conversationthat feels important?
Peter Haberl (44:39):
I will just come back. One last thing here for me
again, you know, the thought andemotion losing factory right,
one thing that factory offers upoften this doubt. So again, to
come back to a quote in thestory. So here the athlete goes,
I've been doubtful in all the 11years that I've played here.
(45:00):
I've been doubtful in all theyears that I've played. So
again, I asked, Hey, do you wantto be this guy? doubtful, 11
years? The answer is no, I don'twant to be that guy. Why don't
you want to be that guy? Whatthat guy isn't going to be
successful? Can I reveal whosaid that? Right? This one
(45:21):
Rafael Nadal, talking about theFrench Open that that time he
had won nine out of 11 times.
And now he's going 30 times andanalysis, I have doubt every
day. And he says, gold, so goodfor you in life, doubt as
uncomfortable as unpleasant yethe says he has all the time. And
(45:43):
the good for you. Because heunderstands when he has doubt,
doesn't take the outcome forgranted. Right. So you never
seen a doll under estimating anopponent. He never seen at all
not prepared for a competition.
So this is someone who haslearned to understand and work
(46:04):
with his mind very, veryskillfully. And that's that's,
you know, I think that'sworthwhile working with and
working Yeah. Because doubt willcome up on this journey that
athletes have, and that I'm suremany of the listeners will have,
as well,
Elizabeth Solomon (46:21):
as I heard you tell that story. I feel like
I just made a little bit ofspace for my own self doubt in
my heart. And it was a really, Ifelt the impact of that. It's
like, Ah, that feels relieving,just to be able to welcome that
in as part of the experience ofbeing human. Thank you so much,
Peter, really appreciate youbeing here with us today on the
show. And it's such a joy tohear about the work that you do
(46:45):
and your particular approach toit.
Peter Haberl (46:48):
Thank you for having me. It's your pleasure
talking with you.
Unknown (47:00):
Good afternoon, Mr.
Goldman. I'm Elena katanya. I'man Italian teacher. I strongly
believe in emotionalintelligence. How can I use
emotional intelligence with mystudents? Even when we deal with
let me say boring stuff? Likegrammar or something like that?
(47:27):
How can I have their attentionthrough emotional intelligence?
Thank you very much for thisopportunity. Bye. Bye,
Daniel Goleman (47:40):
Elena. I love the question. And later
remember, emotions arecontagious and they're
contagious from the mostpowerful person in the room
outward. And use the teacher arethe most powerful person so your
emotional state matters to yourstudents. If you're bored by the
subject, they're going to bebored by the subject. If you
(48:01):
love the subject, if you showthat enthusiasm, no matter what
the subject is, they'll pick upthe feeling.
Kerry Seed (48:16):
Thanks for listening to first person plural EI and
beyond. Do you have a questionfor Dan Goleman he wants to hear
from you. Go to First Personplural.com/ask Dan, that's first
person plural.com/ask. Dan, torecord your question now. While
you're there, follow us onsocial media and sign up for our
(48:36):
newsletter. And be sure to tunein next time when our guests
will be Sasha Dingell. She's aprofessional athlete. And as the
founder and director of mountainmind project. Dingle speaks to
us about how she reconciles thetension between her goals and
other factors in the moment,like her health. We care about
supporting you on your eijourney, and helping to bridge
(48:58):
the gap between theory andapplication that starts by
better understanding you and theresources you're looking for. If
this resonates with you, and ifyou have six minutes to spare,
please take our audience andemotional intelligence insights
survey. You can find it atKeystone media.com/e ai survey.
That's Keystep media.com/eisurvey. We promise to take your
(49:23):
insights to heart. You'll haveour deep gratitude and a free
copy of the leading with empathyeBook, a collective guide that
explores different applicationsand facets of empathy. This show
is brought to you by our COhosts Dan Goleman, Hanuman
Goleman and Elizabeth Solomon,and is sponsored by Keystep.
Media, your source for personaland professional development
(49:44):
materials focused on mindfulnessleadership and emotional
intelligence. Special thanks toIsabella whose voice you heard
at the top of the show, andtoday's guest, Dr. Peter
haberle. For guest BIOStranscripts and resources
mentioned in today's episodes,check out our episode notes on
our website. First Personplural.com. This episode was
(50:06):
written and produced byElizabeth Solomon and me Carrie
seed audio production byMichelle Zipkin. Episode art and
production support by BrianJohnson. Music in this episode
includes tiny footsteps in thesnow by bio unit. Norma by
Monplaisir. And our theme musicis by Amber ohata. Until next
time, be well
Is there something you'd say that you're pretty
good at?
I would say I'm good at dancing.
I like to do ballet. Okay.
Is there something in balletdance specifically that you want
to get better been working on toimprove that?
I want to work on myparallettes.
For those that don't take anydance classes? What is a pair of
(00:24):
weta pair? What is a type of turd
dance?
Oh, okay. And why do you want toget better at doing parallettes?
I want to get better at doingparallettes. Because if you're
at a competition, and you wantto get extra points that the
judges might say you didsomething good. And then say
(00:46):
bye, add extra points. Oh,okay. And how does it feel to
get better at something? Or ifyou've been working on doing a
parallel? How does it feel foryou?
It feels good to accomplishsomething because you've worked
hard on it. And yeah.
Elizabeth Solomon (01:03):
Oh, okay.
Unknown (01:05):
Is there any advice for any future dancers out there
that want to take a class oralso working on their
parallettes? What would you sayto them?
I would say, just practice andbe patient. Because if you're
not really patient, then maybeyou would like, want to give up
and stop working on it.
Oh, that's a great advice. Thankyou so much for sharing your
(01:29):
thoughts with us.
You're welcome. Bye, bye.
Hanuman Goleman (01:42):
Hey, this is Hanuman Goleman. Hi there, this
is the list of solid.
Daniel Goleman (01:46):
Hi, this is Daniel Goleman, you're listening
to
Hanuman Goleman (01:49):
first person plural emotional intelligence
and beyond. This is the secondin a three part series about
achievement orientation. And forthis episode, we're looking at
what achievement means insystems,
Daniel Goleman (02:03):
there's two things I like to say about that.
One is the Dalai Lama urgeseveryone to do whatever they can
to make the world a betterplace. Even if they won't live
to see the fruits of theiractions. Just as you say, the
fruits may come way later thanyou know, after you're no longer
around. The other is, I likevery much putting the individual
(02:24):
achievement in the context ofthe system is a system give you
the causes and conditions thatsupport that achievement, and
lift it to the level of successor not. Because when we talk
about achievement, I think wetend to look at the individual,
not at the system context inwhich the individual is working,
(02:46):
or operating. And you need bothto come together.
Elizabeth Solomon (02:49):
I think about you know, I think about that for
organizations to who arestruggling right now with when
the purpose movement, you know,saying how do I sort of let go
of my fiscal or financial goals,these goals that my entire
structure of my organization isbuilt around upholding and
supporting? How do I put thosegoals aside or focus on those
(03:09):
secondarily to my social orsocietal goals? And that's a
that's a that's a hard thing tochange?
Daniel Goleman (03:14):
Well, I'm not sure it's either or, I'm
thinking of like TOMS Shoes thatgives away a pair of shoes for
every pair you buy. Their modelis profit and purpose, not
profit or purpose. And I thinkmost businesses that want to
survive need to do both.
Hanuman Goleman (03:34):
This system that we're talking about
specifically, this conversationis with Peter Gabriel, who works
with Olympic teams.
Elizabeth Solomon (03:42):
Peter has been with the United States
Olympic Committee since 1998. Inhis current position as senior
sports psychologist, he providesindividual and team
consultations and mentaltraining sessions to various
national team athletes with aspecific specialization in team
sports. Peter has enjoyed theprivilege of having worked at
(04:03):
nine Olympic Games for PanAmerican Games, and one
Paralympic games with usathletes. Prior to joining the
Olympic movement in the UShaberle played professional ice
hockey in Austria. Born inAustria, Peter received his
bachelor's degree in SportScience from the University of
Vienna. He later earned hismaster's degree in counseling,
(04:26):
and is ed in CounselingPsychology at Boston University.
A licensed psychologist Peterfocuses on mindfulness and act
based interventions, which is anacronym for Acceptance and
Commitment Therapy. Welcome toour show today, Peter, we're so
excited to have you here.
Peter Haberl (04:44):
Thanks for having me, Elizabeth.
Elizabeth Solomon (04:46):
How do you talk about yourself and what you
do my elevator
Peter Haberl (04:49):
pitch is I help athletes understand how the mind
works in competition so they canwork with it. That obviously
then begs the question How doesthe mind work? And
metaphorically, the mind worksas a thought and emotion
producing factory that comeswith a built in thief. And this
(05:14):
built in thief steal somethingthat's really precious for
athletes who precious forOlympic athletes. And when I
asked my Olympic athletes Hey,what is it, the thief steals? I
pretty consistently get the sameanswer. Pretty much everybody
says the thief stealsconfidence. So there's this
(05:37):
sense of in order to besuccessful, I have to be
confident at the Olympic Games.
And I actually disagree withthat statement, the thief steals
something that's much moreprecious for for the athletes,
the thief steals attention. Tome, attention is the currency of
performance. So when whenathletes perform well, at the
(05:58):
games, what is always present istheir ability to be present to
be focused, to be in the moment.
And that actually can be doneirrespective of what feelings
are shown.
Elizabeth Solomon (06:14):
I love that distinction between focus and
confidence. One of the ways thatDan talks about achievement
orientation and his model isthat it's not really just about
getting things done for the sakeof getting things done right or
winning for the sake of winning.
But it's really aboutcultivating clarity,
determination, and resilience.
(06:37):
And I'm wondering, you know, asyou're talking about focus, and
presence, how that helps withthese pieces around clarity,
determination, and resilience,and how you see that playing out
with your athletes,
Peter Haberl (06:49):
determination, charity, resilience, through my
lens, those are attitudes ofmind, so to speak, and those
attitudes of minds is somethingI can cultivate. And in my
environment annual begins, youknow, speaking of achievement,
(07:09):
getting things done, there isthis great desire, obviously, to
get someplace to get to biggains, and to win a medal, and
then to win the gold medal. Sothat outcome orientation is
always present, and to a certainextent, has to be present. But
(07:32):
that outcome orientation alsocomes with a dark side. And the
dark side is again, that it canundermine one's ability to stay
present. Because the mind thatthought and emotion producing
factory can easily get trappedin Am I actually on track
(07:52):
towards that goal? Or am Irunning into obstacles wherever
the obstacle may be? And when Irun into an obstacle, running to
D tool, so to speak, clarity,resilience, and determination
are what's called for and wherethey need to navigate that
obstacle.
Elizabeth Solomon (08:13):
What are some of the obstacles that you find
that athletes specifically atthe Olympic level run into?
Peter Haberl (08:20):
Well, the first one that I will come back to,
again, is just this myth that Ihave to have positive feeling to
be successful, right. So thisidea of when I perform well, at
the games, I'm in a positivestate of mind, I'm relaxed and
confident, I don't have anydoubt whatsoever. I believe in
(08:40):
myself. In my experience, thatis a complete myth, A and B,
it's actually rathercounterproductive. Confidence is
a feeling state. And like allfeeling states, they're very
fleeting. And that one's leadingto and at the games,
(09:00):
particularly that state, a maynot materialize or be may
disappear. And then when youthink, then I have to generate
the right feelings to besuccessful, then you're actually
in big trouble, as opposed to,can I be in charge of my
attention, irrespective how Ifeel? And then can I take
(09:23):
actions that are perhaps guidedby determination and resilience?
Elizabeth Solomon (09:28):
You're starting to touch on something
that I'm both like fascinatedand perturbed by, which is what
I call spiritual bypassing,which I think shows up sometimes
in this realm of positivepsychology, right? And it
touches on what you're saying oflike, we cultivate our reality
through manifesting continuouspositive thoughts. Right. And so
I think you're touching onsomething that I think is really
true, which is that there's ashadow side to kind of forcing
(09:53):
ourselves into one way offeeling or thinking and
sometimes that is that we denythings that are actually under
the surface are we like we ceaseto be an integrated and whole
person? I'm wondering what whatyou think athletes, for the most
part do not want to feel at theOlympic Games?
Peter Haberl (10:11):
I actually asked him that question. How do you
not want to feel that the games?
And I do, they're sort ofexperientially, so I put, you
know, 50 mood cards on thefloor. And I asked him, just
pick the cards that capture howyou don't want to feel, you
know, positive and unpleasant,more, say so. So the whole range
of emotions. And across theboards, they will pick, they
(10:34):
will take mood states don't wantto feel they're uncomfortable.
They don't want to feelpressured. They don't want to
feel tense. They don't want tofeel nervous. They don't want to
feel anxious. They don't want tofeel afraid. And then ask them,
okay, so why do you not want tofeel this way? And again, the
answer I get 100% of the timeis, well, if I feel this way, I
(10:57):
will not perform well. Alright,that makes sense. So then I'll
show him some quotes fromathletes. And this is my
favorite one here is the athletegoes. It's the only way to
describe it. It feels like agallows. So it feels like you're
about to be hung. Right beforethe lobby final, right? Do you
(11:20):
want to feel like this guy? Theanswer is no, I don't want to
feel like this guy. All right,that makes sense. Okay, so we're
gonna show you who this guy is.
And this guy happens to be a guynamed Chris Hawaii, actually
surplus Hawaii because he gotknighted by the British, or the
queen is a British track cyclistwho was one six gold medals. At
(11:44):
the will begins describing howhe felt before his first Final
Adobe games. This was in 2004.
In Athens, in an event calledthe kilos, this is a time trial,
1000 meters on the track. And hehappened to be the reigning
world champion. And if you'dreally world champion, you get
to go last in the event. So yousee everybody else's time clock
(12:06):
in. And for you the last fourguys broke up can the world
record right before him right?
Before he has to go. So he hasto process all that. So in that
moment, it felt really, reallystressful for him, right? But
that feeling is actually sonormal. Because if the outcome
(12:29):
matters to you, and the outcomeis uncertain. Guess what
emotional states will show up,almost by definition,
uncomfortable once we feelconfident when we have
certainty. But the OlympicGames, they serve up
uncertainty. And then he addedmeaning piece to it. Right? This
(12:51):
means that we're also them,they've trained for this event
for 12 years, or longersometimes, then uncomfortable
feelings will show up. So can Ibe open to those uncomfortable
feelings and not get derailed bythem. And Chris Hoy actually is
all about our feet. He talksabout when he felt like the
gallows what came next. So hetalks about, he was sitting on
(13:15):
the saddle of the bike,adjusting his helmet, gripping
the handlebar, stepping into thepedals, hearing the countdown of
the clock, 10 987, and so forth.
So all those things, our senseperceptions, so we tunes into
his sense perceptions to bepresent. And again, he can do
(13:36):
that in the presence ofuncomfortable feelings. All of a
sudden, those feelings actuallywill not matter anymore.
Elizabeth Solomon (13:47):
What you're talking about is really I'm
thinking about flow state. Wewant just enough stress, right
to sort of create that sense ofalertness, aliveness, that sense
of wanting, but not so much thatwe tip over into a place of
feeling completely flooded andoverwhelmed. And I'm wondering
how you talk about that withyour athletes of what the right
(14:07):
amount of discomfort is,
Peter Haberl (14:09):
when I as an athlete, think at the games I
need to be in this flow state,right? Then I am grasping for
something that might actuallynot happen. And was interested
in seeing I think, from this,you know, achievement motivation
perspective that you mentioned,is because the outcome is so
(14:30):
important for the athlete, theoutcome is so tangible work,
it's so close they want and somuch that that desire for the
outcome can actually impairagain, their ability to be
present. And with that comesloss desire. Again, I should be
in this flow state, right. Andthen there's this
misunderstanding that in flow, Iactually won't have
(14:51):
uncomfortable feelings,
Elizabeth Solomon (14:53):
right. The very nature of the word kind of
implies a false reality. It's sointeresting. Yeah,
Peter Haberl (14:58):
yes. And I think I think so. It's a mistake that my
field makes in trying to sellmindfulness as a tool to get
into flow, add up games. To me,there's a fundamental
misunderstanding of mindfulness.
It's not about feeling a certainway, I want to ask
Elizabeth Solomon (15:17):
you about something that you brought up.
In our first discussion, when wehad our pre interview, and you
were talking about, you broughtyour athletes on retreat. And I
would love to have you sharethat story with our listeners,
and tell us a little bit aboutthat experience
Peter Haberl (15:34):
is the women's women's water polo team. And
just little bit of the history,the team has won a gold medal in
2012. In London, and the goldmedal in 2016. In Rio, with the
same coach, I've had theprivilege to work with Coach
editor, Korea now for since2008. So long time. And we've
always done some mindfulnesswork with with the team. And
(15:58):
over the years, I always kindof, in a joking way, suggested
to Adam, hey, wouldn't it becool to take the team to a salad
retreat. And he always blew meoff, there's this like, really
crazy idea, there's no way we'regoing to do that. And, you know,
just think about it, like, youknow, which coach can give you
(16:18):
seven to 10 days of trainingtime to go to a place and just
sit and not do anything at allright? But from my own
experience, you know, havinghaving done sand retreats, I
just thought this is like atraining camp for the mind. And
this idea of a training camp,that's obviously the language of
(16:39):
the athlete, right. They'refamiliar with training camps,
where you can modify volume andintensity of a training load.
And I think one way to look atthe sun retreat is to look at
this qualification of volume andintensity of working with with
your mind. So when we won in2016, you know, another gold
(17:02):
medal, then we win two worldchampionships. So we know going
to Tokyo will be the favorite.
And when you're the favorite,one thing that happens is a
particular mental state comesup. And that is precisely
confidence. And you have thisthis aura of invincibility, and
this aura of inevitabilityaround you. And when Adam and I
(17:27):
spoke, you know, we both knewthat that feeling of confidence,
and that aura of invincibilitywould get tested at the games,
for sure. No matter how manygames we win prior to it, we
thought a test would come. Andwe would then face very
(17:51):
different emotions, emotionsthat perhaps we hadn't felt in a
long time. Because we haven'tlost a lot. So just to give an
idea, I think going into theTokyo Games, our record was Ada,
one with one ADA games last onein that time span of three
years. So we thought, that auraof invincibility, that aura of
(18:16):
inevitability would getchallenged. And we want to
prepare for that. So somewhat tomy surprise in 2018. Adam said,
Peter, let's do it. Meaning,let's do the retreat. You were
like finally. Yeah, finally,Yes, finally. But I was also I
was very scared. And also veryscared. Just because of this
(18:37):
wasn't something that theathletes were going to volunteer
for, and say, oh, yeah, cool.
Let's go, let's go do amindfulness retreat for seven
days in silence, without phones,without connection to the
outside world, and withouttalking to each other. So I got
nervous about that, you know,how they would sort of handle
it. With in our preparation,we'd always done some kind of
(19:01):
physical challenge. Like in2012, we spent a day with the
Navy Seals and Coronado in2016 2015, we hiked Pikes Peak
here in Colorado Springs. Sowhen you're 14,000 foot
mountain, but those challengeswere more physical. This time,
we're looking more at a mentalchallenge. And one thing that
(19:24):
was really fascinating is whenwhen we arrived at our retreat
setting, we sort of created ourown retreat here in the
mountains in Colorado Springsplace called bison peak. When
the players arrived, you couldtell they were nervous. They
were intimidated. They wereworried. And they were scared.
(19:45):
And Eric actually talked aboutit that he hadn't seen them feel
that way, in a long, long time.
Right. And then we actually bothlooked at each other as is. Now
we're here. Let's go. And wefelt the same way. about the
games, right? So, yes, we canfeel really these unpleasant
emotions, and then thenbasically get to work. So we
(20:06):
spent seven days at the sushiplace in silence, sitting,
walking, eating by yourself,doing your yoga chores, all that
good stuff. Having wonderfulguides enjoyed Brewer. And then
at the end of the seven days, weagain added a physical challenge
(20:27):
to the event. We climbed 314years in one day,
Elizabeth Solomon (20:34):
what was the outcome of that experience for
the participants? What were someof their feedback and their
comments? Well,
Peter Haberl (20:40):
the goal is we had said, we want to pay the team
for the stones that were ahead,they will come and ahead, we
didn't know we had COVID on thehorizon, we didn't know that the
games will be postponed, we knowall the players had to add on
another year of training, youknow, to get to the games. So we
didn't foresee those charges.
And then then at the games, inour third game, in Round Robin,
(21:03):
we actually lost to Hungary 10to nine. So not a second loss.
And it was a long time. And theteam that we had last year in a
long time. And as we weredebriefing this afterwards, as
the coaches were debriefing thisafterwards, with with the
players after the game, wasreally interesting, because a
(21:25):
they talked about the pressurethey felt as the favorite. And
then there was also this tenerthat, hey, we're at the Olympic
Games, we should just enjoyourselves. And we thought, this
is exactly what we prepared for,right? This desire now to feel
the right way. So for us, it wasworth remembering that we have
(21:50):
prepared for this moment forthis exchange. And we want to be
open to these emotions, and notactually grasp for a particular
mental state, such as joy,because truth be told, if you're
the favorite at the OlympicGames, if you expect it to win,
Joy hardly ever shows up. Right?
(22:15):
So then grasping for joy wouldbe a mistake. And then we met
again that evening. And againhad a conversation about that.
And then in the end, Adam hadthis big whiteboard in his dorm
space, so to speak. And then hewrote a few words on the board.
And the rules were play theright way. And that may sound
(22:40):
meaningless here, or maybetrivial. But when he wrote that
on the board, the players knewexactly what he meant. The
players knew exactly how thatwould translate to action in the
water action in the pool, asopposed to how they were
supposed to feel playing theright way. Right has everything
(23:04):
to do with how they have trainedthemselves, how they play
together, how they help eachother, how they're connected in
the water, how they fight eachother, and how they fight for
each other in the water. So theyknew exactly what this meant.
And really, to violence. Thiswas like this perfect behavioral
(23:24):
cue that Adam gave them. So itwas just brilliant coaching
really, right. And by givingthem that play the right way
that showed a way out of youhave to feel the right way,
which again, through my lenswould have been a trap.
Elizabeth Solomon (23:41):
I'm curious as we're talking about team
sports and team achievement. Sothinking about a sport like
swimming, for example, right,where individuals are part of a
team, and yet they're alsocompeting against one another.
I'm curious, just to talk alittle bit about that tension
between being teammatesachieving towards a goal, and
(24:02):
also being competitors, orindividuals who are vying for
the same price, this section
Peter Haberl (24:07):
that I find quite fascinating, and I'm gonna have
attention to you. But America isoften described as a very
selfish country, right? Whereyou just focus on yourself, get
rich, and so forth. Butinterestingly enough, if you
look at the Olympic Games,America is the best team sport
country. So nobody wins moreteam sport medals at the games,
(24:30):
then you asked us. So what I'mtrying to get at is one thing
that we figured out in the teamsport side, when when we do it
right. Is is that balancebetween valuing individualism,
because that's actually alsonecessary to perform on teams,
and then valuing that connectionand that sacrifice for the
(24:53):
greater good of the team. So onething we do with the water polo
team is we have this traditionThere's cultural tradition and
call it that the head ceremonywhen we win the game, we have a
player, at some point in timewas rewarded for having made a
contribution to the team'sperformance. And then this
player who has the hat, she willpass it on to somebody else on
(25:16):
the team. And so she will pick ateammate, who has made a
significant contribution to thesuccess of the team in this last
game, right. And what's been funwith this team is over the years
is they have gotten so good atthis ceremony that before they
actually named the player thatgot a name, they go through half
(25:37):
the team, and praising them forsomething they did in the game.
So they're just very alert andin tune with the contributions
teammates make, and what thatmatters, the team and in the
process really sort of create aculture of fondness and
appreciation. That's just reallyimportant to think, for teams to
(25:58):
be successful.
Elizabeth Solomon (25:59):
Mm hmm.
Certainly. And I'm thinking ofall of our listeners out there
who work in the organizationalspace, right, and are often
thinking about how do werecognize people in a way that
both honors their individualitybut also honors their
contribution to somethinglarger? I want to ask about, you
know, what do you feel like youlearned thinking about Simone
Biles experience and Tokyo. I'mcurious to hear from you, Peter,
(26:21):
what you sort of took away fromthat, and how that influenced
the way you help athletesprepare for Beijing?
Peter Haberl (26:29):
Well, first of all, I don't know Simone, and I
don't work with her. So this isjust sort of my view from a
distance here. But what I tookaway from her experiences was
other athletes in the role offavorite is the importance of
preparing for an onslaught ofunpleasant emotional states at
(26:49):
the games, A and B. I thinkthere's a sense of that, I think
Simone spoke about this verycandidly, and courageously of
having a sense of, I have to dothis for somebody else. So the
sense of, I have to win, for mycountry, or for my culture, for
(27:11):
my family, whatever it may befor the fans, right, that
athletes can get trapped in. Soit again comes back this idea of
the mind as a thought andemotion producing factory
athletes, when they start out inthe sport, almost always, they
do it because they enjoy thesport, they enjoy the being of
(27:33):
it. And then what changes in theenvironment of the games is the
meaning that we give to themedal. So if I win the medal,
everybody in my surroundingswill be happy, and I will be
happy. So the psychologist PaulBloom at Yale says that we are
(27:56):
essentialist that we tend togive something an essence, that
actually might not be there. AndI think we for sure do that with
the Olympic medal, you know, wegive it an essence. So if I win
the medal that I am somebody,and this gets back to me to,
again, your comment earlier onabout resilience and
(28:16):
determination. So what I mean bythat is resilience determination
are basically value propositionsthey are about how to carry
myself, right. So goals areabout getting something getting
somewhere. Values are about howdo I want to be in this moment?
(28:39):
How do I want to carry myself inthis moment? What do I want to
stand for in this moment? Sogoals are a destination, values
or a direction. And what'simportant for me now in
preparation for Paris, with myteams against being very mindful
of how easy it is to get suckedinto the outcome goal, and to
(29:03):
counterbalance that with anongoing conversation about
values, right, so what do youwant to stand for? So let's say
I want to be determined, right?
He says, I want to bedetermined, that translates into
specific actions in a moment tomoment basis. And I can use
those actions again, to aid theanchors of the present moment,
(29:26):
but also then guide my behavior,respect, irrespective of how I
feel. So when the onslaught ofemotions comes at the games, for
an athlete, can I be open tothat? And then not get caught up
in the outcome, but remindmyself of how I want to carry
(29:47):
myself in the space.
Elizabeth Solomon (29:52):
Now there's something that I'm thinking of
as you're talking, which is, andit's, you know, I'm sort of
tracking the parallels betweenwhat you're talking about in
that order. conversationalspace, right. And the difference
between an organization that ishyper focused on winning or
profit. So however you want todefine that, and an organization
that is actually more focused ona mission and values, and
thinking about how they show upeach day in the marketplace and
(30:14):
with their employees. And I'mcurious, you know, I think it's
quite easy. And I say this, youknow, in a very self effacing
way, I see it in myself to sortof think, to live in that
mindset of like, if I get X, themetal, what have you, then I'll
be happy, then I will haveachieved then I'll have some
(30:36):
sort of mythical state of beingthat I've been aiming for. And
I'm just wondering, when you seepeople who do you know, when the
gold medal reached that goal,what are some of the emotional
states that you see them gothrough afterwards?
Peter Haberl (30:53):
Well, very often, it's elation. Sometimes, it's
also a sense of relief, right.
And sometimes there's this senseof desolation, will carry
forward. And that's where it canget difficult to think for
Olympic athletes. Because theafter right, emotions, they come
and they go, they don't stay. Sothe unpleasant ones don't stay.
(31:18):
The pleasant ones don't stayeither, right. And the more the
more I want to cling to thepleasant ones, the more likely
they are to sort of move on,right? And then there's danger
of forgetting what actuallygenerated those pleasant
emotions. And very often whatgenerates them is some specific
(31:41):
actions that you as an athletetook over a very long period of
time. And again, it's worthdoing deck that question of what
we want to stand for, and whatare my values is an important
question for athletes to ponder.
And it's not something where youjust sort of come up with a
(32:01):
quick answer, it's something Ithink you want to sit with it a
bit, and chew one of the bit andsort of see what arises.
Elizabeth Solomon (32:09):
It's like your identity becomes entwined
with the, quote, unquote,succeeding, and I really hear
you encouraging people to thinklike, how do you want to show up
as a leader, as an athlete inyour sport that actually has
nothing to do with whether ornot you win the medal. It's
about how you came into thegame, the attitude with which
you came into the game, thevalues and how you live that out
(32:32):
and what you demonstrated. I'mwondering how the larger US
Olympic team observes the needsof its high achieving athletes,
and how would you even citethose needs? How would you talk
about those?
Peter Haberl (32:45):
Well, I think first and foremost, again, it's
this idea of, you know, lookingat the athlete as a human being
right, rather than a machinethat produces metals. And I
think, you know, one thing thatmy organization has done quite
well over the last few yearsthat you've emphasized mental
health, and put a whole stafftogether to address a that need
(33:06):
and also just to have aconversation about it. And we
certainly seen a lot of athletesalso having that conversation
that I think actuallyreverberates, you know, through
society at large then, because Ithink, historically, for a long
time, that's not a conversationthat we had, right, that you can
(33:27):
talk about mental health, justlike your physical health, and
that you can take steps toaddress mental health. And
there's actually courageous todo so. Right. And again,
obviously, Simone Biles has donesome excellent work in that
space. I think by addressingthat,
Elizabeth Solomon (33:44):
how does the team create a culture of
tenacity?
Peter Haberl (33:47):
That's a good question that gets back again at
this idea of values. So hervalues defined, enact values are
defined as a desired globalquality of an ongoing action.
Right, so desired, Sunday chooseokay. It's not a rule that
someone imposes on you. It'ssomething that you choose. So
(34:11):
you use the verb tenacity,tenacious, right? Tenacious, I
can choose to be tenacious, insay, you know, with a whirlpool
team in the pool, I can chooseto be tenacious, in the strength
conditioning session. I canchoose to be tenacious in a
seven day silent retreat. Whenmy mind says I don't want to be
(34:31):
here. Why are we doing this?
Right? I can choose to betenacious.
Elizabeth Solomon (34:36):
I'm so curious. I'm thinking about that
inner critic and thinking about,you know, the life stories of
your athletes. To what degree dosome of your athletes think that
that is like innate, somethingthat they can identify having
lived with their entire lives?
To what degree does that comefrom external forces such as the
environment or culturalmessaging? I'm just I'm curious
about that.
Peter Haberl (34:57):
I think a big part of my job is to normalised the
internal critic, one of myfavorite quotes is from, from
Rafael Nadal, from hisautobiography, and he goes on
what a battle hardest in atennis match is the quiet the
voices inside my head. That'sthe critic to shut everything
(35:18):
out. But the contest itself,that's nearing potential to
concentrate every atom of mybeing on the point I'm playing.
Let's focus on the moment now asthe tension, currency of
performance. If I made a mistakeon the prior point, this is
(35:38):
where the critic comes in.
Right? He says, Let it go. Sothinking about the past isn't
going to help. He goes on, if athought of victory suggest
itself, crush it. So you have anathlete who's aware, there's an
internal dialogue going on witha thought and most specifically
does all day long or mind offersof thoughts that were very
(36:00):
simple exercise to prove thepoint, or grab a stopwatch. And
I tell my athletes, once I pressstart, don't have any more
thoughts. And the moment thefirst stop pops up, just raise
your right hand, right? Ready,say go. Three seconds in the
hands pop up the first arcaneand innovate it all, on its own,
(36:21):
didn't choose to have it, youhave no control over your
thoughts, right. So we have anathlete here, no doubt, all
aware of that internal dialogue.
Where if I get sucked into that,it's actually not helping. So
with that awareness, right, thenI can choose where to put my
attention. In his case,concentrate every atom of your
(36:45):
being on the point you'replaying. So he wants to see the
tennis ball. That's differentfor Simone Biles. That's
different for a wrestler, that'sdifferent for a water polo
player, but they all know wherethey want to put their
attention, when it comes time tocompete. So in attention to the
kinds of performance and then ofcourse, stuff happens, mistake
(37:06):
in the past thoughts will comeup as the factory does, can now
be aware of that, that pool intothe past, or being hijacked in
the future, right? A thought ofvictory. It's a pleasant
thought. It's a nice feeling.
But it's not going to help himplay the next point. What
matters is going to come backand focus on the next point,
right? In order to do that, Igot to see how that thought is
(37:28):
trying to hijack me into thefuture. You know, I'd
Elizabeth Solomon (37:32):
love to have you tell me when you're looking
at a team and maybe it's intraining, or maybe it's in
competition itself, and you'reseeing a team of people where
everybody is focused on thatpresent moment, right? Crushing
any focus on the goal, and alsonot letting thoughts of the past
intrude, in that present momentattune to one another, working
(37:52):
as a kind of Symphony, what isthe feeling that you have, as
someone witnessing that?
Peter Haberl (37:57):
Will you use an interesting phrase, there's
symphony. That's what it feelslike. It feels like all the
notes are being hit just theright way. And it flows. And
it's connected. It's this rhythmto it, right? That you see on
the team, and then it becomesquite magical. And I think like
(38:19):
for the water polo team, therewere moments like that in the
gold medal game, when wheneverything just clicked right
off the get go. And again, thatcomes again after years and
years of training, actually. Butthen when it happens, it's
almost palpable, tangible, and Ithink symphonies really great
(38:41):
word to capture. They're
Elizabeth Solomon (38:43):
also curious just to talk a little bit about
the role of trust in teamachievement. And I'm wondering
if you can share with us anystories of where a betrayal of
trust has occurred and how youhave helped your athletes
overcome that?
Peter Haberl (39:00):
I think the marriage researcher John Gottman
has really helpful model I thinkthat also applies to leadership
in team sports. You know, hesays that all relationships have
conflict. And there are some ofus who are masters at conflict,
and some of us are disasters,the disasters of conflict,
they're causing the FourHorsemen of the Apocalypse,
(39:24):
criticism, contempt,defensiveness and stonewalling.
And then we have the antidotes,causing, you know, a soft
startup culture of appreciation,taking responsibility, and then
having the ability to toregulate your emotions to self
soothe. So I think we canactually practice those those
(39:46):
elements and again, we canbecome aware of the horseman, so
sometimes trust will getviolated, right? That's a moment
of conflict and trust in a wayis to me is like it onion in
many layers, we can take layersoff, and we can put layers on.
And over the course of a season,right, we can, again work on
(40:10):
building that onion, and addinglayers to it. And if there's a
violation of trust, to have aconversation about it, right, so
part of my job, my work is tocreate a space where the
athletes can talk with eachother, rather than me talking at
them. So very often, I will tryto create that space for them,
(40:35):
where they can speak with eachother. And then we can build on
those layers of onions. So itdoesn't get to a place where it
becomes irreparable. So it'svery much a proactive approach,
as opposed to a reactiveapproach to something that
happened.
Elizabeth Solomon (40:50):
My last question for you is just, you
know, thinking again, about thisexperience of identifying as an
athlete identifying as someonewho achieves identifying as the
winner of a gold medal, I wonderif you can tell us a little bit
what happens for many athleteswhen they're done competing?
Peter Haberl (41:09):
Well, from a research perspective, that
depends a bit whether thattransition is is voluntary or
involuntary. So involuntary isyou know, you have an injury and
you have to retire. Involuntaryis when you get cut from a team,
and you don't make your OlympicGames, you know, want your use
when you might reach your goals,and then choose to move on, so
(41:30):
forth. So I think it's nodifferent than you might see in
the organizational space, youknow, when someone gets laid off
or chooses to leave anorganization, that piece plays
into it, what will come next Aand B, as a sort of transition
all of these athletes identity,you know, who am I? Right? And
(41:55):
what's helpful there is a tounderstand you're more than just
an athlete, right? That's justsort of a label that you have.
In from a mindfulnessperspective, there's just this
idea of a selfie you may have,but that idea of self is
actually not that real. Leadingand then you have fleeting, yes,
(42:18):
fleeting, right. And then comingback again, to the values
question, you know, I'm thinkingback to in 2019, I had the
chance to be in Cape Town withone of my sports. And at the end
of the tournament, I got tovisit Robben Island, where
Nelson Mandela was incarceratedfor, I think, 18 or 27 years in
(42:38):
prison. And then I'm readingthis this article in The New
York Times where they shared aletter, Nelson Mandela had
written to his wife Winnie,talking about how he used the
cell as his meditation space tosort of investigate how he would
define success, a, and what'sgood about him. So when were
(43:01):
qualities or strength, or goodabout him that he wanted to
cultivate. And obviously, whenyou're in prison for that long,
with no hope of ever gettingout, right? To hear him sort of
share their story and usingtheir time to reflect on himself
to reflect on what he wanted tostand for, right? How he wanted
(43:23):
to say educate his fellowinmates about politics, how he
was going to, you know,cultivate a relationship with
with the the jailers, and learntheir language, their culture,
so we communicate with them. Sofor me, that story, he came back
(43:43):
to the values piece right inreconnecting with that, and then
again, using values to guideone's behavior, rather than
using some kind of identity toguide your behavior. Right. So
he didn't see himself as aprisoner. As opposed to
something really different. AndI think that's also important
(44:05):
for athletes to keep in mind,right? How did I carry myself
or, you know, thinking of thegreat Norwegian Olympian, you
weren't all of course, who youknow, after winning three gold
medals, retired and then formthe humanitarian organization
right to play. Right. So there'smuch that transfers, I think,
(44:25):
from their experience as anathlete to the next step in
their careers.
Elizabeth Solomon (44:30):
Peter, thank you so much. Is there anything
else that you want to add orthat you feel that we haven't
touched on in our conversationthat feels important?
Peter Haberl (44:39):
I will just come back. One last thing here for me
again, you know, the thought andemotion losing factory right,
one thing that factory offers upoften this doubt. So again, to
come back to a quote in thestory. So here the athlete goes,
I've been doubtful in all the 11years that I've played here.
(45:00):
I've been doubtful in all theyears that I've played. So
again, I asked, Hey, do you wantto be this guy? doubtful, 11
years? The answer is no, I don'twant to be that guy. Why don't
you want to be that guy? Whatthat guy isn't going to be
successful? Can I reveal whosaid that? Right? This one
(45:21):
Rafael Nadal, talking about theFrench Open that that time he
had won nine out of 11 times.
And now he's going 30 times andanalysis, I have doubt every
day. And he says, gold, so goodfor you in life, doubt as
uncomfortable as unpleasant yethe says he has all the time. And
(45:43):
the good for you. Because heunderstands when he has doubt,
doesn't take the outcome forgranted. Right. So you never
seen a doll under estimating anopponent. He never seen at all
not prepared for a competition.
So this is someone who haslearned to understand and work
(46:04):
with his mind very, veryskillfully. And that's that's,
you know, I think that'sworthwhile working with and
working Yeah. Because doubt willcome up on this journey that
athletes have, and that I'm suremany of the listeners will have,
as well,
Elizabeth Solomon (46:21):
as I heard you tell that story. I feel like
I just made a little bit ofspace for my own self doubt in
my heart. And it was a really, Ifelt the impact of that. It's
like, Ah, that feels relieving,just to be able to welcome that
in as part of the experience ofbeing human. Thank you so much,
Peter, really appreciate youbeing here with us today on the
show. And it's such a joy tohear about the work that you do
(46:45):
and your particular approach toit.
Peter Haberl (46:48):
Thank you for having me. It's your pleasure
talking with you.
Unknown (47:00):
Good afternoon, Mr.
Goldman. I'm Elena katanya. I'man Italian teacher. I strongly
believe in emotionalintelligence. How can I use
emotional intelligence with mystudents? Even when we deal with
let me say boring stuff? Likegrammar or something like that?
(47:27):
How can I have their attentionthrough emotional intelligence?
Thank you very much for thisopportunity. Bye. Bye,
Daniel Goleman (47:40):
Elena. I love the question. And later
remember, emotions arecontagious and they're
contagious from the mostpowerful person in the room
outward. And use the teacher arethe most powerful person so your
emotional state matters to yourstudents. If you're bored by the
subject, they're going to bebored by the subject. If you
(48:01):
love the subject, if you showthat enthusiasm, no matter what
the subject is, they'll pick upthe feeling.
Kerry Seed (48:16):
Thanks for listening to first person plural EI and
beyond. Do you have a questionfor Dan Goleman he wants to hear
from you. Go to First Personplural.com/ask Dan, that's first
person plural.com/ask. Dan, torecord your question now. While
you're there, follow us onsocial media and sign up for our
(48:36):
newsletter. And be sure to tunein next time when our guests
will be Sasha Dingell. She's aprofessional athlete. And as the
founder and director of mountainmind project. Dingle speaks to
us about how she reconciles thetension between her goals and
other factors in the moment,like her health. We care about
supporting you on your eijourney, and helping to bridge
(48:58):
the gap between theory andapplication that starts by
better understanding you and theresources you're looking for. If
this resonates with you, and ifyou have six minutes to spare,
please take our audience andemotional intelligence insights
survey. You can find it atKeystone media.com/e ai survey.
That's Keystep media.com/eisurvey. We promise to take your
(49:23):
insights to heart. You'll haveour deep gratitude and a free
copy of the leading with empathyeBook, a collective guide that
explores different applicationsand facets of empathy. This show
is brought to you by our COhosts Dan Goleman, Hanuman
Goleman and Elizabeth Solomon,and is sponsored by Keystep.
Media, your source for personaland professional development
(49:44):
materials focused on mindfulnessleadership and emotional
intelligence. Special thanks toIsabella whose voice you heard
at the top of the show, andtoday's guest, Dr. Peter
haberle. For guest BIOStranscripts and resources
mentioned in today's episodes,check out our episode notes on
our website. First Personplural.com. This episode was
(50:06):
written and produced byElizabeth Solomon and me Carrie
seed audio production byMichelle Zipkin. Episode art and
production support by BrianJohnson. Music in this episode
includes tiny footsteps in thesnow by bio unit. Norma by
Monplaisir. And our theme musicis by Amber ohata. Until next
time, be well
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