May 17, 2022 • 49 mins
Athlete and entrepreneur, Sasha Dingle joins Liz Solomon to discuss her experience learning to live in harmony with her drive to excel.
Dingle is a high achiever in many facets of her life. She is the Founder and Director of Mountain Mind Project. She is a qualified Mindfulness-Based Stress Reduction (MBSR) Teacher by the UCSD School of Medicine MBPTI. As a meditation teacher she facilitates mindfulness programs to an international client audience in the areas of leadership development, healthcare, education, and sports mental fitness.
Daniel Goleman talks about his Emotional Intelligence Courses, available at danielgolemanemotionalintelligence.com
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Episode Transcript
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Unknown (00:00):
What is something you're good at? Jumping? Do you
want to get better at something?
Yes? What? fortnight? Why do youwant to get better at it have
itself on that plane? How doesit feel to get better at
something? Is this yours?
Hanuman Goleman (00:32):
Hello, this is Hanuman Goleman.
Elizabeth Solomon (00:35):
Hi out there is Elizabeth Solomon.
Hanuman Goleman (00:38):
Hello everyone.
This is Daniel Goleman. You'relistening to first person plural
emotional intelligence andbeyond this episode, we'll look
at achievement and what it meansas an individual. We're talking
to Sasha Dingell, who is, amongother things, fantastic athlete.
Elizabeth Solomon (00:56):
Dan, I'm actually the first question I'm
curious about is how when Whendid achievement become a part of
your model of emotionalintelligence? And was it always
called achievement? Or did youcall it by a different name in
the early years,
Daniel Goleman (01:08):
you know, when I started to look at the
competencies that distinguishoutstanding performers in the
workplace, the best leadersachievement kept coming up as
one of the abilities thatdistinguishes outstanding
performers. And so Iincorporated it into my model of
emotional intelligence. When Iwrote the book, working with
(01:30):
emotional intelligence around98, when we're when we're
looking at in the context ofsports, or individual sports
versus team sports,
Hanuman Goleman (01:39):
there's an aspect to the individual sport
where if you are a biker, amountain biker, you have to get
out on the trails, and practice,practice, practice busting your
ass, just learning all of the,all of the bikie things I don't
know, not a particularly highachieving mountain biker.
(02:03):
Although I love it, it's justnot my achievement orientation.
And but then, there are also thesystems that support that
individual, there are the thesponsors that can give you the
equipment that makes you hireperson performing athlete, and
(02:28):
there are the personal supportsthat have that support your you
emotionally, the love and thereassurance, and you can do
this, you know, and and thenthere's a coach that can help
you with that drive and helpkeep your eye on the goal. These
(02:50):
are all external systems, evenfor that individual sport.
Elizabeth Solomon (02:55):
I mean, yeah, I think about that, too, of like
how much motivation we getthrough the cultural icons that
are available to us, right. Andthere's so much around this. I
mean, if we don't see ourselvesrepresented in certain roles,
it's really hard for us tovisualize ourselves, achieving a
level of success that we don'tsee people like us achieving,
you know, and I think Sashatalks really beautifully about
(03:16):
that, in her interview, just youknow, growing up as a woman of
color, and doing competitiveskiing, in an industry that's
predominantly white,predominantly male, and
certainly caters to a certainsocio economic bracket.
Hanuman Goleman (03:33):
Yeah, and you can look at any, any area,
whether it's politics, orbusiness, or sports, and that's
really pertinent. Having themodels
Elizabeth Solomon (03:45):
has been a beautiful part about the rise of
social media, I think and theability for the people to sort
of take exposure andstorytelling into their own
hands if we think about how manymore stories and role models are
available to us and even thinkabout just like, all of the
fashion brands these days thatare focused on inclusivity of
(04:05):
different body types, let alonedifferent races and gender
identities. And I've beenthinking about that a lot
because it feels like especiallyraising a child especially
raising a girl it feels sodifferent from the world I grew
up in where there was like justthinking about, you know,
achievement of certain beautystandards, there was a very kind
(04:27):
of one, one single sideddefinition of beauty and the 80s
and 90s that I was exposed toand when I look into media now I
see so much more diversity and Ithink it's such a signaling of
hope for me.
Hanuman Goleman (04:41):
I was reflecting a little bit about
the pieces that need to that arethere are of personal
achievement in my mind. And forme there are these it's broken
down into these three parts.
There's the motivation for it,which is like our our vision or
our mission personally And whatwhat our goals are. And then
that translates into influencingthe conditions. However we might
(05:08):
have for an athlete, it's, it'sworking hard to develop our
skills. For an entrepreneur,it's, it's getting the resources
and the processes in place andthe systems set up to, to get
our, you know, our product tomarket or whatever it might be,
or get that venture capital or,and then, then there's that
(05:32):
third part, which is theoutcomes, and that, that may or
may not work, and we can do the,we can have the best goal, and
we can do the best job we canwith getting the conditions to
be there. And then it just mightnot work, how we want it to. And
(05:56):
so there's this, this like,working hard, but also not being
attached to the outcome. Andthat allows us to continue to
work. I mean, when we think thatwhat we're that our goal has
failed, if we aren't attached tothe outcome of it, then we can
keep working for the next goalthat that failure or those
(06:19):
conditions just become thebedrock for the next thing that
we do. It's not a failure. It'sjust a step. And, and we get to
build the next step from there.
This could be a whole podcast initself.
Elizabeth Solomon (06:34):
This episode is our third conversation in our
three part series onachievement, one of four self
management competencies, and DanGoldman's framework of emotional
intelligence, and award winningathlete and successful
entrepreneur, Sasha is here tospeak about her own experience
of achievement. Sasha, welcometo the show. Thanks,
Sasha Dingle (06:58):
Liz, I'm excited to talk with you today. Not only
Elizabeth Solomon (07:01):
are you an athlete, something we kind of
commonly associate withachievement, but you're also
trained in Mindfulness BasedStress Reduction. It's something
that you teach, through yourbusiness mountain mind project,
you teach that to individuals,you bring that to organizations,
and you're also trained in Dan'smodel of emotional intelligence.
And when many of us were gettingtrained as coaches in this
(07:25):
methodology, you were leadingmany of the mindfulness
practices in our curriculum. Andso I just want to name that
because it was such a joy tosort of hear your voice every
day, and be in your presencevirtually, as I was getting
trained as an AI coach,
Sasha Dingle (07:41):
I appreciate that.
Yeah, it's fun to merge, I thinkthe world of mindfulness and
performance and performance atwork and performance sport, so
Elizabeth Solomon (07:52):
we have our own definitions of what it means
to achieve. And I would love tojust give you the opportunity
just to say, how do you defineachievement? How do you think
about achievement? How does thatword even land with you?
Sasha Dingle (08:03):
Honestly, I think it's been the driving force in
my life. I'm very proud of theyear I won the free scream world
tour. And not just that, I wonthat series, but that it was a
year of being on the podium toget there. So all the steps
along the way, I'm proud ofgoing to Vietnam at 23, to teach
(08:27):
as a university professorstraight out of college and
turning back toward a place thathad been a part of my heritage.
But I didn't know if I had aconnection to I'm proud of
starting my own business at 27.
And kind of training directorsand managers in the hospital. At
a young age, I was 27, when Iwas working in HR, the interim
(08:50):
business partner, the hospital,I like that there are a lot of
different pieces of me that I'vepushed to see how far I can take
them. So to me, it's aboutexcellence. But also, I think,
really, what it comes down to isit's about transformation and
challenge. That's the part thatfeeds me that it is a means to
(09:14):
it's sort of a pathway toconstant growth and testing
limits and maybe pushing themfurther.
Elizabeth Solomon (09:26):
I love that because I always like to make
the clarification thatachievement isn't really just
about getting things done forthe sake of getting things done,
but that there has to be adeeper motivation and sense of
meaning there. And I would loveto start to talk about
achievement in the context ofyour athletic career and just
(09:47):
have you tell us a little bitabout your history as an
athlete.
Sasha Dingle (09:50):
Sure. So I started skiing with my family when I was
two I started mountain bikingwhen I was eight. And those
eventually became The sportsthat I would do at an
international level, skiingprofessionally, later in life.
And so, by the time I was inhigh school, I was the only girl
on my junior developmentmountain bike team. And
(10:15):
simultaneously also competing inski racing. So it's mountain
bike racing and ski racing.
Around the time I was 16, or 17,I was invited to travel and
compete around the world withthe national development system
that is the recruitment feederfor the US Ski Team. While I was
in college, I start ice kind ofswitched within the sport of
skiing to compete in what'scalled Big Mountain freeride
(10:38):
skiing. And so I was competingon the free Skiing World Tour
for about three years, Ieventually won that series and
then qualified for the FreerideWorld Tour, dealt with some
injuries, grabbed for sort ofwhat was my offseason sport,
mountain biking and qualified tocompete on the Enduro World
(10:58):
Series. So two sports, thehighest level of competition for
both of those sports. And Ithink athlete is just this
identity that sort of enduredwith me for my whole life,
Elizabeth Solomon (11:11):
I'd love to hear a little bit about any
reflections or insights you haveof you know, being a child and
sort of experiencing that drivewithin you to not just
accomplish something and notjust compete, but also in
sports, where not many women,let alone women of color are
represented. For me,
Sasha Dingle (11:29):
that was the place in my life where I felt most in
alignment with myself. So forexactly those reasons that you
pointed to, you know, I have alot of different aspects of
myself that are associated withidentities that are termed
minority. And there's sort ofthat suggestion of inferiority
in that term. And that didn'tfit my experience. And so, in my
(11:53):
athlete life, that was the firstplace that I found that this
identity of strength ofresilience, and so when I
stepped into my skis or on mybike, in those moments, the way
the world experienced meexternally actually fit, which
was a rare thing in other areasof life, it fit with how I
(12:14):
experienced myself internally.
So that felt like me at my mostnatural self. And then once I
had discovered that I couldchannel it into places like, you
know, as a kid in school, or myprofessional life, how I teach
how I lead now. But that was thefirst place, I actually felt
that
Elizabeth Solomon (12:34):
I'm hearing like a real sense of
empowerment, and competence, anda sense of alignment. You know,
thinking again, of you as achild, what were the images that
you had around you, who are yourrole models,
Sasha Dingle (12:50):
so I shared skiing with my family of four, so it's
my parents and my brother. So,you know, I saw that in them.
And he's very different Giles, Ithink, for my dad, I saw this,
definitely the achievementpiece, this, this constant
wanting to improve oneself. Andin my mom, I just saw this
fearlessness. And so my mom'sside of the family are all
(13:15):
refugees from Vietnam, they haveleft like, right at the very end
of the Vietnam War. And shebecame a chemical engineer in
the US. She also had graduatedcollege early. So she was she
was modeling this way, indifferent places in her life,
and would bring me along towomen and engineering camp, so
(13:36):
that, you know, her approachinspired me, and also this peace
of recognizing to that, youknow, you could lose everything.
And it's still okay, that wasalso modeled in her and I think
that allowed me to have the risktaking that was necessary in
achievement. And these paths of,you know, trying to pursue
(14:00):
something at a high level,failure is part of that and risk
is a part of that. And so, I hada high tolerance for risk.
Elizabeth Solomon (14:09):
I'm so curious about that, you know,
that tolerance for risk and thatsense with like, ultimately,
even if I fail, I'll be okay. Imean, it sounds like as a kid
you already pretty brave rightto get up on a mountain bike and
to get up on skis. But Irealized that you know, it's one
of the things that hinders a lotof us from achieving is a deep
fear of failure.
Sasha Dingle (14:29):
I was like a 15 year old ski racer in you know,
we would wear these skin tightspandex suits to go faster,
being told by my coach that ifyou you know, ski afraid, you're
more likely to get hurt as we'rebeing asked to go down a slope
as fast as you drive down theinterstate on your car. That was
(14:52):
downhill ski racing. So, I wasadapting strategies and I think
I had to look to other areas ofmy life for what would work. I
mean, no one taught me how tonot feel afraid in the face of
that. And so I think I alwayshad a really strong relationship
(15:14):
with the wisdom of my body, anda really strong relationship
with the natural world. Andthose are actually where I look
to as my sources forinspiration. So in the moments
where it was like, you're aboutto go really fast on the scary,
icy thing. Where could I put myattention that felt supportive,
it was something I could feel inthe movement of my body, or this
(15:36):
beautiful view of the mountain.
And there's nothing guaranteedwhen you're running your own
operation. I, okay. performanceanxiety, I think is a common
experience to anyone who isspeaking in front of a group of
people. And so I've realizedthat this actually, for me,
(15:57):
never goes away. And that's beenthe main place where I grabbed
from sort of this start gateritual I would do is before I
have to speak in front of agroup, because I'm still feeling
that physiology of anxiety gothrough my system. And I would
reframe in the start gate, Oh,this isn't nervousness as
(16:23):
excitement and you actuallyreally similar physiologically,
you feel excited. And so some ofthese techniques to prepare
myself, like pre speaking infront of a group of people,
there's that similarity. I mean,I think people think that as you
get better, at a sport, you'resupposed to not be afraid
anymore. It's not true. Fear isalways there. Just figuring out
(16:45):
how to manage it, I think thesame thing goes for, for me
speaking in front of people,which is like my bread and
butter as a instructor who workswith groups. That feeling of
nervousness or anxiety, or maybein it is excitement to that kind
of racing energy through myphysiology never goes away the
(17:06):
very first time it's a newgroup. So I manage it with
similar strategies. I think thatthere's this really interesting
interaction and tension that wehold between goals, and a
mindfulness practice. But what Ifound is that goals are kind of
(17:27):
that Northstar, that I willcontinuously to move toward,
even if, you know, I veer offtrack along the way, they orient
me. But I need to also not holdthem so tightly that they get in
the way of the action that Ineed to take now because the
(17:50):
only place I can move toward mygoals is in the present moment.
That's the sort of unit ofpossibilities it takes place in
the present. That's why that isso important to a mindfulness
practice, that present moment.
But yeah, goals can get in theway of being present, if we're
(18:13):
holding that in the center ofattention. So it's this funny
interplay of reminding myself ofwhy I'm here doing what I'm
doing. So
Elizabeth Solomon (18:21):
I just really resonate with what you're
saying, if you think of abusiness, how do I create a five
year 10 year strategy, when theentire world feels like it just
got turned upside down and couldget turned upside down again, at
any moment. And so this tensionbetween being like, focused and
emergent, I think, is somethingthat people can relate to like
both individually and like in anorganizational sense, and just
(18:43):
in how we're adapting oursystems and thinking about
direction,
Sasha Dingle (18:47):
right? Completely Yeah, because if we hold on to
the goal so tightly, that itdoesn't allow us to be nimble,
which is what's needed toactually get us there, then that
goal is getting in the wayinstead of, you know, adding to
them kind of drive. And I wouldthink of things like I would
actually do this in the startgate, I would remind myself to
(19:10):
not get so lost in visions of meon the podium with metals around
my neck, or so stuck inrumination of What didn't I do
to prepare for this moment, itjust had to come back to right
now, still with the aim ofheading toward the podium. But I
couldn't focus on that we can'tfocus on that when we're
actually trying to take thesteps to, you know, living into
(19:32):
what we want
Elizabeth Solomon (19:33):
now being fully present in the process
instead of to oriented on theoutcome.
Sasha Dingle (19:38):
Yeah, and we can cultivate it. 100%. So yeah, I
might have had an affinitytoward this. But absolutely, my
mindfulness practice has hashelped me to fine tune it or to
apply it where it reallysupports me so my dad started
bringing me to yoga class withhim when I was eight. I think
that I also had a contemplativeapproach to most sports because
(20:01):
they are they take placeoutdoors. And that was where I
felt like I belonged, and feltthe most comfortable in these
different arenas in my life. Andso growing up in Vermont, there
was always this strong sense ofplace in the natural world, I
mean, I would get lost all thetime in the woods and explore.
And I think that is acontemplative life in child
(20:25):
form. And so the way that Iapproached even competitive
sports involves this, I mean, Iremember even in high school,
doing a lot of the same sort oflike pre event rituals I do now
or pull from before I go topublic speak, or something like
that. And they're actually thesame practices. And so I was
finding ways to ground my body,check in with my mind, notice,
(20:47):
when fear was there, fine tuneit, so it couldn't get in the
way, look at the mountains, youknow, because they inspired me
and gave me sort of the sense ofcomfort that they were around me
in the start gate, but alsoreminding myself to not get too
lost and how beautiful they are,or too lost in visions of myself
on the podium. And so thispresent moment focused, sort of
(21:11):
functional approach. And thestart gate was always a part of
this for me. And then I wasstudying psychology in college,
and I picked up these books thatwere at the intersection of
psychiatry, and Buddhistpsychology. And that's when I
realized that you could reallytrain and amplify and cultivate
these qualities of mind.
Elizabeth Solomon (21:33):
So curious, and you talk about kind of
mitigating fear, if there areany strategies that you can
share with our listeners aboutwhat happens for you when a
fearful thought arises? And whatare some of the simple tools
that you draw on to coachyourself through that,
Sasha Dingle (21:46):
I think the strategies I was using, you
know, in high school, andthrough my early career as an
athlete, were, in a way,disregarding my body. And so it
worked. In that when fear showedup in my system, I could just
put it aside and block it outand go. But as an older athlete,
(22:08):
with a little more wisdom andinjury and illness along the
way, I realized that that is nota sustainable approach. And so
it does work. And we also haveto I have to look at sort of
what is the intentionalitybehind this strategy? So more of
like a middle point of the twonow, it's almost this intimacy
(22:30):
with fear, like reallydiscerning, what is this
emotion? Or what is this signal?
For me, I really tend to noticethe sensations in my body more
than I noticed, like thought aslike an inner critic or
something like that. And so forme, these signals kind of show
up as sensation. And so I'll usestrategies to kind of ground
(22:52):
find somewhere else in my bodyto place the tension if these
sorts of physiology of fear isshowing up. But it's, it's
really important to notice thesignal and then figure out what
it means especially with fearbecause fear keeps us safe. And
so it was looking at when fearshowing up as I'm standing at
the top of this, you know,narrow shoe, I can't see my
(23:13):
landing or in the start gate,high stakes, you know, high risk
situation, fear of showing upand trying to discern, does this
mean that this just looks scary?
And any normal human being wouldbe feeling fear right now
because of how it looks, butit's well within my ability, or
(23:34):
is this fear here because thisfear is going to keep me safe
today, and today is not the dayI need to back off. I need to
walk away from this. That's sortof the process that I've adopted
in being with fear. Hmm,
Elizabeth Solomon (23:49):
really attuning to the sensations and
then understanding do they fitfor the context? Or is this kind
of a primal or almost a rationalresponse? I'm wondering, just to
have you talk a little bit aboutthat of that transition for you
from dissociating as a as atechnique to integrating and
(24:10):
really being with your entireexperience.
Sasha Dingle (24:13):
Okay, so really, the realization came about when
I was on my way to compete atthe Enduro World Series over
crank works week in Whistler,and this was sort of what I was
calling my second career as anathlete. I had gone through post
(24:33):
health issues I grabbed formountain biking because it felt
more freeing. It felt like therewas a learning curve that was
exciting. I was on my way tocompete up at the Enduro World
Series at Whistler, and I calledmy coach who was training me at
the time and I told her I justrealized for the very first time
(24:55):
after 15 years competing at aninternational level that at the
deepest level, I don't believein myself. And so that was a
moment that came out of thisforced having to pull back from,
you know, my career as anathlete. And that's actually
probably the lesson for me oflooking at achievement and what
(25:18):
feeds me because because thisplace of competition or this
this life of an athlete waswhere I had built my identity.
In such a strong way, it waswhere I found my belonging, when
I wasn't finding that in thehuman community or in other
areas of my life, I held on tothat so strongly, and, and yes,
(25:40):
it was my strength ofresilience. So that, you know, I
could build my expectations sohigh and below past others
expectations for me. But it wasalso there was a flip side to
that, I had to look at what wasfeeding that drive, even feeding
that resilience. And that sortof continuation of just keeping
going forward no matter what.
And when I really stopped andlooked, it was these things
(26:03):
like, I don't know, if I'menough, I don't know if I belong
here. But like I had pushed thatinner critic so far down, I
really didn't even hear it'sbeen an exercise in noticing
that there is a voice that cansay these things, it was so
shoved deep that for me, thisinner critic showed up in the
form of sensations in my body,what started to become my
(26:26):
reality was that the accumulatedload over time, I had kind of
reached a breaking point. So andit was interesting that it took
place right after probably thebest competition season of my
life. So I had straight out ofcollege, I had got a Fulbright
(26:47):
grant to go teach at auniversity in Vietnam. 23 year
old baby bass professor had noidea what I was doing. But I had
always simultaneously been I wascompeting on a freeskiing World
Tour, you know, while going tocollege. This was the one year
that I put competition on hold,went to Vietnam, and part of
(27:08):
wanting to go was I had startedto accumulate some losses in the
sport, I had lost friends to thesport. And when I came back, I,
you know, had a hunger for a newwhat I wanted was ready to come
back to winter, with a veryclear idea of wanting to qualify
for the Freeride World Tour. Andso had this season of being on
(27:29):
the podium, every single eventof the season, winning the final
event winning the title, youknow, getting this dream of
competing, going to Europecompeting kind of at the top of
the sport. And I guess there wasthis peace of sort of arriving
there in a way and realizingthat nothing changes. I think my
dad even told me, Don't forgetto work as hard for this, as
(27:51):
you've been working all along.
It was like there was no reliefin a way. But the health issues
were so confronting that I mean,I lost like 20 pounds in the
middle of ski season all thisweight and muscle I've been
building since I was 14powerlifting as a young ski
racer. So the drastic shift forme as someone who had always
(28:14):
counted on my body, use it as mytool, and depended on it to
suddenly not being able to, todepend on it. It was an identity
loss, it sort of felt like abetrayal from my body. You know,
it was these lessons learnedthat I think most of us don't
need to learn until we're in our80s. And so that was the gift in
(28:36):
how it shaped my trajectory withthese lessons. But it was really
hard. It was really confronting,like the rug just got pulled out
from under me. And it wasn'teven a possibility to do the
things that I loved at the levelI wanted or really even have the
energy to, you know, go out andbe with friends, which I also
love or give to myrelationships.
Elizabeth Solomon (28:59):
How would you talk about the shifting of goals
in that moment. And, you know,the shifting of goal being from
winning to focusing on yourhealth,
Sasha Dingle (29:06):
that is actually probably when I grabbed for my
yoga and my meditation practicelike a lifeline and, and
deepened it. I've already beengoing on silent retreat for some
years before. But that was whenI really had to look at some of
these strategies that were maybeleading to successes in these
(29:29):
different areas of performancefor me, but they weren't going
to be able to lead to successforever, right? They weren't
sustainable strategies. Sothat's when I really started to
pay more attention to thesignals of my body. Pain forces
you to do that those signals arestrong, those sensations grab
your attention. But luckily, forme, even after the pain went
(29:51):
away and the illness was manage,you know, I still had to pay
attention to those signals ofsensations. And so I use that to
try Aren't my training plans andeven the load on my nervous
system kind of from there on.
And it was a more integratedkind of holistic approach to
even training like, even ifbecause, you know, our stressors
(30:14):
don't compartmentalize to piecesof our life, it's not like, if
you're fighting fires at workall day, you can then just put
that aside, in the sake of likea training plan. I mean, that
was maybe when I started to seeas well is, I was doing heart
rate training. And I noticedthat if I had a very stressful
(30:34):
day at work, fighting fires,kind of constant change, I
actually couldn't achieve mytraining goals, because the
purpose of training as anathlete is to add a load stress
load to your system. That's justenough that leads to adapting,
but not so much that it leads toburnout or injury. And so, yeah,
(30:55):
it led to just a morecomprehensive look at what's the
load that I'm carrying? And howdo I integrate this,
Elizabeth Solomon (31:04):
I'm wondering, you know, as you came
to that realization, thatunderneath this desire to
achieve right underneath all theapplause, that you are getting
for being resilient and winningawards, and being on the podium,
that there was this other sortof quality of emptiness or
questioning of self worth, whathappened after that,
Sasha Dingle (31:25):
for me, personally, it shaped my career
as an athlete to be somethingthat actually had me performing
at a higher level. And for me,as a meditation teacher, it
channeled this into the heart ofwhat I teach. So I have really
been gravitating toward themindful performance enhancement
(31:47):
kind of around resilience andfocus and flow. And so I got to
channel all these lessons intosome of the teaching that I was
doing. I've been really leaningon this idea of commitment to
these things that are reallyimportant to me, I actually
better slow down or take care ofme along the way, so that I can
(32:11):
always be doing this. So that'sbeen the biggest shift in
approach, I think, and theoutcome, honestly, is the same
or even strengthened, because itwill allow these to continue.
Elizabeth Solomon (32:23):
I know you have your entrepreneurial peers,
you have your biking peers, youhave your skiing peers. But I'm
curious, how does the dialoguediffer among those groups around
this sense of understandingachievement, not just in the
short term, but over theduration of one's life,
understanding one's commitmentto one's business or the sport,
(32:46):
or to the outdoors andconnecting to that in a way that
is deep enough to say, Okay, I'mgoing to take care of myself,
despite this burning urge, Ihave to kind of push it to the
edge, because I hear you talkingabout this. But I'm wondering is
that a conversation that's isheld elsewhere.
Sasha Dingle (33:03):
At a high level, I think that, interestingly
enough, if we can sort of likefoster the wisdom from this, I
think athletes, in some wayshave an advantage, or like maybe
one step closer towardunderstanding the process that's
needed in a mindfulness practiceand meditation practice, because
(33:25):
they're already familiar withtraining. And that's the same
thing. It's this daily orongoing exercise to build these
capacities of mind. And so in away, it's like if I'm working
with a leader, or a doctor, andthey, you know, love to climb,
(33:45):
or they used to play soccer,when they were a kid, like we
have a language there that Ithink actually really serves the
training itself. Because there'sso much similarity, it's more
abstract, in a way theseconcepts around training the
mind,
Elizabeth Solomon (33:58):
I'm interested in just talking a
little bit about balancing thatindividual need to achieve with
supporting a team knowing thatthe team's achievement also
matters and having to depend onother people as well.
Sasha Dingle (34:13):
I've found that this played out for me in my ski
life, and that I kind of gotused to doing it alone. You
know, being in these maledominated spaces is one of the
only females in both sport andwork. I really just got used to
depending on my self, but Ithink that earlier in my ski
(34:35):
career, if I had seen the valueof even having, you know, a
woman, or I have Vietnamese or abrown woman, I'm at the top of
the podium and the top of thesport and the value of that for
kids and others that actuallymight have been a larger
motivation that could havecarried me through some of these
challenging moments and depthsin the sport. So that has been
(35:00):
In a big piece in me coming backand just realizing I am part of
something that felt veryindividual and what I was
pushing for, and pushing forwardbut has a lot of impact. And
that actually feeds me to keepgoing.
Elizabeth Solomon (35:15):
I'm wondering how has that informed how you
model achievement, who you feellike you are even modeling
achievement for right? There's awhole other pocket of society,
you know, namely women of color,for whom your achievements model
something that helps them raiseto their own desires and goals?
Sasha Dingle (35:36):
Yeah, I've started to see that anyone who really
excels at their craft providesan inspiration for someone else
to find, what is that thing thatI really care about? Or want to
take to that same level? Like,what is the thing that I made
for? And so I'm in working withathletes, I think that's a
(35:57):
reminder to them of the value ofan athlete, it actually is a
contribution to society, I thinkin this way that it models this
drive and this commitment, andthis understanding around
failure and challenge along theway that I think can ignite some
really good motivations and, andwisdom applied anywhere. And so
(36:19):
in working with clients, andespecially with working with
teenagers, I'm really lookingfor like, what is that place in
your life that really lights youup that there's a lot of energy
around, it could be knitting, itcould be cooking, it could be
managing teams, it could be yoursport life, and wherever we can
find that place, that those arenot teenage examples that I
(36:40):
wouldn't do adults, but we canfind that place, especially
important to foster early, thenwe can amplify that into these
other areas of life, where maybeit's not showing up as much, or
these skills are nottranslating.
Elizabeth Solomon (36:56):
I'm curious to hear a little bit about the
teenagers you work with andtheir relationship to
achievement and how that mightbe similar or different from
your own relationship toachievement as a team.
Sasha Dingle (37:05):
Yeah, man, I think the pressures that teens are
under and even working incollege students are more than
when we were young, even justin, you know, the structure of
academics and the pathway tocollege. The one difference that
I think is important is that,you know, my drive to excel came
(37:29):
from within, and my parents werethis very hands off support in
that they were basically like,you can go and do whatever it is
you want to do, and we've gotyour back. But I think the
winding path, is really key toget to that place of of what is
(37:51):
it that I meant to do? What isit that is going to be sort of
me in my flow, because you haveto discover that we don't know
that instantly. As a kid, wemight have an idea. But there's
a lot that needs to emergethere. So I think that feels
different in that and that also,my cousin is also a professional
(38:12):
skier. And we've talked aboutthis approach, because a lot of
the skiers that I grew upcompeting with just don't ski
anymore, it's very common forburnout to have happened young
in that sport. And so I think apiece of this is like, is the
motivation from within? Or is itbecause someone else is telling
(38:33):
me that this is the thing I needto do in order to be successful
in order to make it in order toget into college. So yeah, I
think fostering that windingpath able to get lost. I mean,
literally my parents didn'talways know where we were, we
had this these woods to explorein and we could just kind of at
some point hit a dirt road andwalk back home and orient walk
(38:56):
back home. And so that processof getting lost and being
comfortable with getting lostbecause I knew I could orient
and find my way back at somepoint was something that I think
is is unique and different. Andso that's maybe some of what we
get to explore in a meditationpractice. We explore we get lost
we don't know why something isshowing up. And then we have a
(39:18):
conversation and maybe we startto inquire and piece the threads
together.
Elizabeth Solomon (39:23):
I love that actually want to hear you say a
little bit more about that.
Sasha Dingle (39:26):
Yeah, I mean, I think I'll lose my credibility
with any team clients to saythis but yeah, I mean, I think
for me social media is somethingthat I have to manage and keep
some distance with and someparameters around because I
think that I mean I grew up withlike, not really even TV I've as
(39:48):
an adult I don't own my own TV.
You know I'll have it when myhouse I share with my partner
has it or a roommate has it butI've never really gone and
bought my own TV. We had for twoAnd I was on a good day melee
three growing up. And so thatwas actually really functional,
I think in my ability to keeppushing forward in my
(40:09):
professional and my athletelife, because people didn't look
like me in the places I wasgoing, or didn't share my
experience as a multiracialwoman. And I think had I seen
the reality of how uncommon thatwas, or infrequent it was that I
was seeing someone who lookedlike me represented, maybe that
(40:31):
would have sunk in. But becauseI wasn't even seeing that I
could keep just being me movingforward in these places, where
it was uncommon to be at thetime. So I do really think I
mean, I even see myself to it.
Now I really try to curate whatI'm consuming in the form of
(40:54):
social media and media ingeneral. And what is the impact?
Elizabeth Solomon (40:58):
Yeah, and I'm also hearing that it keeps you
oriented to an inner experience,right? So you get, you're
getting to sort of meander anddiscover and explore and live
with those sensations of like,what actually lights me up? What
actually motivates me? Versuswhat am I seeing in the external
environment that is both likedefining who I can and can't be.
But it's also sort of settingthese kind of arbitrary goals,
(41:21):
right of what I'm supposed towant? What's valuable in our
society?
Sasha Dingle (41:26):
Yeah, I mean, we need those role models and those
relationships that we can gainfor social media and media in
general, for inspiration andcreativity. But I think, if we
notice that it's actuallyconstraining what we think we're
capable of, or what we'reallowing ourselves to do, that's
when, for me, I need to block itout.
Elizabeth Solomon (41:47):
How do you understand where your sense of
faith and hope and competencecome from?
Sasha Dingle (41:52):
How Yeah, that's a great point that faith and hope
and confidence are necessary intandem with achievement. Because
when we're really pushing forthings that are new, when we've
never done before, me maybesomething that no one has ever
done before. We need hope andfaith and confidence from
(42:15):
somewhere. I think that, for me,it came from this desire to get
to feel like me, to have theseplaces where I could actually,
like I explained before, justkind of tap into some of these
things that I knew I was capableof. But society perhaps was not
(42:37):
agreeing. I think hope and faithalso came from just like the
value of the constant path oftransformation, that is this
quest for achievement. I mean,we, I really found the value of
competition to be how frequentlyI had to come up against
(42:58):
challenges. And we know that,you know, challenges are those
the moments that transform us inour life, or make us have to
grab for these capabilities thatwe might have not even known
were possible in us or learn newskills, or pivot and head off in
a completely differenttrajectory. And the reality of
(43:18):
an athlete life is you arefacing challenges every day.
That's what a training plan is.
That's what competition is, it'sa purposeful load of challenge.
That's just enough that you cantransform and adapt. Yeah, so
there's just like that. Thatfeeling of transformation to me
feels like a source of life.
(43:38):
Like it's just there's so muchvitality there. A lot of purpose
there. It's like I'm living aslong as I'm continuing to pivot
and stretch and strengthen andrest and heal. I mean, because
that is a part of that processis well, the athletes know,
while it's like you are restdays are built into our training
(44:00):
plans. That's one thing that'sdifferent from my professional
life, or most professionallives. You know, a lot of us as
professionals, it's like we arehaving to achieve at the highest
level all year long, the all daylong all year long. And athletes
actually have rest months, oryou do a big push in a workout.
And then you have a rest daybuilt in. And so I try to
(44:22):
remember that as well, in myprofessional life, to build in
those moments for renewal andrest.
Elizabeth Solomon (44:29):
Sasha tell us what you're working on now.
Sasha Dingle (44:31):
Yeah, so I just came back from 10 days of a film
project. So a weather window fora ski film called Nexus. It's an
all women's ski film. And I havea segment with my cousin Kristen
Norman, and we're telling thestory of our moms both coming to
the US as Vietnam war refugeesfalling in love with skiing and
(44:54):
then passing it on to us and howwe're taking that gift of that
Love of skiing, kind of to payit forward and the different
ways that we're shaping the skiindustry and greater impacts as
well.
Elizabeth Solomon (45:07):
When will people be able to see that film?
When is that due for release?
Sasha Dingle (45:10):
So that'll be premiering in fall of 2022.
Elizabeth Solomon (45:15):
Looking forward to seeing that. Thank
you so much, Sasha. This hasbeen such a wonderful
conversation. There's so muchincredible wisdom in here. And I
just want to thank you forjoining us today and speaking so
beautifully and eloquently toyour first person experience of
being an achiever.
Sasha Dingle (45:32):
Absolutely, thanks for giving me the opportunity to
do it.
Kerry Seed (45:45):
Thanks for listening to first person plural EI and
beyond. Remember, the DanGoleman wants to hear your
questions at Keystonemedia.com/ask Dan. That's
Keystep media.com/ask Dan. Whileyou're there, follow us on
social media and sign up for ournewsletter. And be sure to tune
(46:05):
in next time when Daniel Golemantalks conflict management with
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reserves. George has aninteresting background. And I've
been held hostage four timesmyself. Join us to hear what he
learned from those experiences.
We care about supporting you onyour ei journey and helping you
(46:27):
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We promise to take your insightsto heart you'll make the show
(46:52):
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It's sponsored by Keystep media,your source for personal and
(47:13):
professional developmentmaterials focused on
mindfulness, leadership andemotional intelligence. Special
thanks go out to Matteo whosevoice you heard at the top of
the show, and today's guestSasha dig. For guest BIOS
transcripts and resourcesmentioned in today's episode,
check out our episode notes onour website first person
(47:33):
plural.com This episode waswritten and produced by
Elizabeth Solomon and me Carrieseed audio production by
Michelle Zipkin. Episode art andproduction support by Brian
Johnson. Our theme music is byAmber O'Hara until next time, be
well
What is something you're good at? Jumping? Do you
want to get better at something?
Yes? What? fortnight? Why do youwant to get better at it have
itself on that plane? How doesit feel to get better at
something? Is this yours?
Hanuman Goleman (00:32):
Hello, this is Hanuman Goleman.
Elizabeth Solomon (00:35):
Hi out there is Elizabeth Solomon.
Hanuman Goleman (00:38):
Hello everyone.
This is Daniel Goleman. You'relistening to first person plural
emotional intelligence andbeyond this episode, we'll look
at achievement and what it meansas an individual. We're talking
to Sasha Dingell, who is, amongother things, fantastic athlete.
Elizabeth Solomon (00:56):
Dan, I'm actually the first question I'm
curious about is how when Whendid achievement become a part of
your model of emotionalintelligence? And was it always
called achievement? Or did youcall it by a different name in
the early years,
Daniel Goleman (01:08):
you know, when I started to look at the
competencies that distinguishoutstanding performers in the
workplace, the best leadersachievement kept coming up as
one of the abilities thatdistinguishes outstanding
performers. And so Iincorporated it into my model of
emotional intelligence. When Iwrote the book, working with
(01:30):
emotional intelligence around98, when we're when we're
looking at in the context ofsports, or individual sports
versus team sports,
Hanuman Goleman (01:39):
there's an aspect to the individual sport
where if you are a biker, amountain biker, you have to get
out on the trails, and practice,practice, practice busting your
ass, just learning all of the,all of the bikie things I don't
know, not a particularly highachieving mountain biker.
(02:03):
Although I love it, it's justnot my achievement orientation.
And but then, there are also thesystems that support that
individual, there are the thesponsors that can give you the
equipment that makes you hireperson performing athlete, and
(02:28):
there are the personal supportsthat have that support your you
emotionally, the love and thereassurance, and you can do
this, you know, and and thenthere's a coach that can help
you with that drive and helpkeep your eye on the goal. These
(02:50):
are all external systems, evenfor that individual sport.
Elizabeth Solomon (02:55):
I mean, yeah, I think about that, too, of like
how much motivation we getthrough the cultural icons that
are available to us, right. Andthere's so much around this. I
mean, if we don't see ourselvesrepresented in certain roles,
it's really hard for us tovisualize ourselves, achieving a
level of success that we don'tsee people like us achieving,
you know, and I think Sashatalks really beautifully about
(03:16):
that, in her interview, just youknow, growing up as a woman of
color, and doing competitiveskiing, in an industry that's
predominantly white,predominantly male, and
certainly caters to a certainsocio economic bracket.
Hanuman Goleman (03:33):
Yeah, and you can look at any, any area,
whether it's politics, orbusiness, or sports, and that's
really pertinent. Having themodels
Elizabeth Solomon (03:45):
has been a beautiful part about the rise of
social media, I think and theability for the people to sort
of take exposure andstorytelling into their own
hands if we think about how manymore stories and role models are
available to us and even thinkabout just like, all of the
fashion brands these days thatare focused on inclusivity of
(04:05):
different body types, let alonedifferent races and gender
identities. And I've beenthinking about that a lot
because it feels like especiallyraising a child especially
raising a girl it feels sodifferent from the world I grew
up in where there was like justthinking about, you know,
achievement of certain beautystandards, there was a very kind
(04:27):
of one, one single sideddefinition of beauty and the 80s
and 90s that I was exposed toand when I look into media now I
see so much more diversity and Ithink it's such a signaling of
hope for me.
Hanuman Goleman (04:41):
I was reflecting a little bit about
the pieces that need to that arethere are of personal
achievement in my mind. And forme there are these it's broken
down into these three parts.
There's the motivation for it,which is like our our vision or
our mission personally And whatwhat our goals are. And then
that translates into influencingthe conditions. However we might
(05:08):
have for an athlete, it's, it'sworking hard to develop our
skills. For an entrepreneur,it's, it's getting the resources
and the processes in place andthe systems set up to, to get
our, you know, our product tomarket or whatever it might be,
or get that venture capital or,and then, then there's that
(05:32):
third part, which is theoutcomes, and that, that may or
may not work, and we can do the,we can have the best goal, and
we can do the best job we canwith getting the conditions to
be there. And then it just mightnot work, how we want it to. And
(05:56):
so there's this, this like,working hard, but also not being
attached to the outcome. Andthat allows us to continue to
work. I mean, when we think thatwhat we're that our goal has
failed, if we aren't attached tothe outcome of it, then we can
keep working for the next goalthat that failure or those
(06:19):
conditions just become thebedrock for the next thing that
we do. It's not a failure. It'sjust a step. And, and we get to
build the next step from there.
This could be a whole podcast initself.
Elizabeth Solomon (06:34):
This episode is our third conversation in our
three part series onachievement, one of four self
management competencies, and DanGoldman's framework of emotional
intelligence, and award winningathlete and successful
entrepreneur, Sasha is here tospeak about her own experience
of achievement. Sasha, welcometo the show. Thanks,
Sasha Dingle (06:58):
Liz, I'm excited to talk with you today. Not only
Elizabeth Solomon (07:01):
are you an athlete, something we kind of
commonly associate withachievement, but you're also
trained in Mindfulness BasedStress Reduction. It's something
that you teach, through yourbusiness mountain mind project,
you teach that to individuals,you bring that to organizations,
and you're also trained in Dan'smodel of emotional intelligence.
And when many of us were gettingtrained as coaches in this
(07:25):
methodology, you were leadingmany of the mindfulness
practices in our curriculum. Andso I just want to name that
because it was such a joy tosort of hear your voice every
day, and be in your presencevirtually, as I was getting
trained as an AI coach,
Sasha Dingle (07:41):
I appreciate that.
Yeah, it's fun to merge, I thinkthe world of mindfulness and
performance and performance atwork and performance sport, so
Elizabeth Solomon (07:52):
we have our own definitions of what it means
to achieve. And I would love tojust give you the opportunity
just to say, how do you defineachievement? How do you think
about achievement? How does thatword even land with you?
Sasha Dingle (08:03):
Honestly, I think it's been the driving force in
my life. I'm very proud of theyear I won the free scream world
tour. And not just that, I wonthat series, but that it was a
year of being on the podium toget there. So all the steps
along the way, I'm proud ofgoing to Vietnam at 23, to teach
(08:27):
as a university professorstraight out of college and
turning back toward a place thathad been a part of my heritage.
But I didn't know if I had aconnection to I'm proud of
starting my own business at 27.
And kind of training directorsand managers in the hospital. At
a young age, I was 27, when Iwas working in HR, the interim
(08:50):
business partner, the hospital,I like that there are a lot of
different pieces of me that I'vepushed to see how far I can take
them. So to me, it's aboutexcellence. But also, I think,
really, what it comes down to isit's about transformation and
challenge. That's the part thatfeeds me that it is a means to
(09:14):
it's sort of a pathway toconstant growth and testing
limits and maybe pushing themfurther.
Elizabeth Solomon (09:26):
I love that because I always like to make
the clarification thatachievement isn't really just
about getting things done forthe sake of getting things done,
but that there has to be adeeper motivation and sense of
meaning there. And I would loveto start to talk about
achievement in the context ofyour athletic career and just
(09:47):
have you tell us a little bitabout your history as an
athlete.
Sasha Dingle (09:50):
Sure. So I started skiing with my family when I was
two I started mountain bikingwhen I was eight. And those
eventually became The sportsthat I would do at an
international level, skiingprofessionally, later in life.
And so, by the time I was inhigh school, I was the only girl
on my junior developmentmountain bike team. And
(10:15):
simultaneously also competing inski racing. So it's mountain
bike racing and ski racing.
Around the time I was 16, or 17,I was invited to travel and
compete around the world withthe national development system
that is the recruitment feederfor the US Ski Team. While I was
in college, I start ice kind ofswitched within the sport of
skiing to compete in what'scalled Big Mountain freeride
(10:38):
skiing. And so I was competingon the free Skiing World Tour
for about three years, Ieventually won that series and
then qualified for the FreerideWorld Tour, dealt with some
injuries, grabbed for sort ofwhat was my offseason sport,
mountain biking and qualified tocompete on the Enduro World
(10:58):
Series. So two sports, thehighest level of competition for
both of those sports. And Ithink athlete is just this
identity that sort of enduredwith me for my whole life,
Elizabeth Solomon (11:11):
I'd love to hear a little bit about any
reflections or insights you haveof you know, being a child and
sort of experiencing that drivewithin you to not just
accomplish something and notjust compete, but also in
sports, where not many women,let alone women of color are
represented. For me,
Sasha Dingle (11:29):
that was the place in my life where I felt most in
alignment with myself. So forexactly those reasons that you
pointed to, you know, I have alot of different aspects of
myself that are associated withidentities that are termed
minority. And there's sort ofthat suggestion of inferiority
in that term. And that didn'tfit my experience. And so, in my
(11:53):
athlete life, that was the firstplace that I found that this
identity of strength ofresilience, and so when I
stepped into my skis or on mybike, in those moments, the way
the world experienced meexternally actually fit, which
was a rare thing in other areasof life, it fit with how I
(12:14):
experienced myself internally.
So that felt like me at my mostnatural self. And then once I
had discovered that I couldchannel it into places like, you
know, as a kid in school, or myprofessional life, how I teach
how I lead now. But that was thefirst place, I actually felt
that
Elizabeth Solomon (12:34):
I'm hearing like a real sense of
empowerment, and competence, anda sense of alignment. You know,
thinking again, of you as achild, what were the images that
you had around you, who are yourrole models,
Sasha Dingle (12:50):
so I shared skiing with my family of four, so it's
my parents and my brother. So,you know, I saw that in them.
And he's very different Giles, Ithink, for my dad, I saw this,
definitely the achievementpiece, this, this constant
wanting to improve oneself. Andin my mom, I just saw this
fearlessness. And so my mom'sside of the family are all
(13:15):
refugees from Vietnam, they haveleft like, right at the very end
of the Vietnam War. And shebecame a chemical engineer in
the US. She also had graduatedcollege early. So she was she
was modeling this way, indifferent places in her life,
and would bring me along towomen and engineering camp, so
(13:36):
that, you know, her approachinspired me, and also this peace
of recognizing to that, youknow, you could lose everything.
And it's still okay, that wasalso modeled in her and I think
that allowed me to have the risktaking that was necessary in
achievement. And these paths of,you know, trying to pursue
(14:00):
something at a high level,failure is part of that and risk
is a part of that. And so, I hada high tolerance for risk.
Elizabeth Solomon (14:09):
I'm so curious about that, you know,
that tolerance for risk and thatsense with like, ultimately,
even if I fail, I'll be okay. Imean, it sounds like as a kid
you already pretty brave rightto get up on a mountain bike and
to get up on skis. But Irealized that you know, it's one
of the things that hinders a lotof us from achieving is a deep
fear of failure.
Sasha Dingle (14:29):
I was like a 15 year old ski racer in you know,
we would wear these skin tightspandex suits to go faster,
being told by my coach that ifyou you know, ski afraid, you're
more likely to get hurt as we'rebeing asked to go down a slope
as fast as you drive down theinterstate on your car. That was
(14:52):
downhill ski racing. So, I wasadapting strategies and I think
I had to look to other areas ofmy life for what would work. I
mean, no one taught me how tonot feel afraid in the face of
that. And so I think I alwayshad a really strong relationship
(15:14):
with the wisdom of my body, anda really strong relationship
with the natural world. Andthose are actually where I look
to as my sources forinspiration. So in the moments
where it was like, you're aboutto go really fast on the scary,
icy thing. Where could I put myattention that felt supportive,
it was something I could feel inthe movement of my body, or this
(15:36):
beautiful view of the mountain.
And there's nothing guaranteedwhen you're running your own
operation. I, okay. performanceanxiety, I think is a common
experience to anyone who isspeaking in front of a group of
people. And so I've realizedthat this actually, for me,
(15:57):
never goes away. And that's beenthe main place where I grabbed
from sort of this start gateritual I would do is before I
have to speak in front of agroup, because I'm still feeling
that physiology of anxiety gothrough my system. And I would
reframe in the start gate, Oh,this isn't nervousness as
(16:23):
excitement and you actuallyreally similar physiologically,
you feel excited. And so some ofthese techniques to prepare
myself, like pre speaking infront of a group of people,
there's that similarity. I mean,I think people think that as you
get better, at a sport, you'resupposed to not be afraid
anymore. It's not true. Fear isalways there. Just figuring out
(16:45):
how to manage it, I think thesame thing goes for, for me
speaking in front of people,which is like my bread and
butter as a instructor who workswith groups. That feeling of
nervousness or anxiety, or maybein it is excitement to that kind
of racing energy through myphysiology never goes away the
(17:06):
very first time it's a newgroup. So I manage it with
similar strategies. I think thatthere's this really interesting
interaction and tension that wehold between goals, and a
mindfulness practice. But what Ifound is that goals are kind of
(17:27):
that Northstar, that I willcontinuously to move toward,
even if, you know, I veer offtrack along the way, they orient
me. But I need to also not holdthem so tightly that they get in
the way of the action that Ineed to take now because the
(17:50):
only place I can move toward mygoals is in the present moment.
That's the sort of unit ofpossibilities it takes place in
the present. That's why that isso important to a mindfulness
practice, that present moment.
But yeah, goals can get in theway of being present, if we're
(18:13):
holding that in the center ofattention. So it's this funny
interplay of reminding myself ofwhy I'm here doing what I'm
doing. So
Elizabeth Solomon (18:21):
I just really resonate with what you're
saying, if you think of abusiness, how do I create a five
year 10 year strategy, when theentire world feels like it just
got turned upside down and couldget turned upside down again, at
any moment. And so this tensionbetween being like, focused and
emergent, I think, is somethingthat people can relate to like
both individually and like in anorganizational sense, and just
(18:43):
in how we're adapting oursystems and thinking about
direction,
Sasha Dingle (18:47):
right? Completely Yeah, because if we hold on to
the goal so tightly, that itdoesn't allow us to be nimble,
which is what's needed toactually get us there, then that
goal is getting in the wayinstead of, you know, adding to
them kind of drive. And I wouldthink of things like I would
actually do this in the startgate, I would remind myself to
(19:10):
not get so lost in visions of meon the podium with metals around
my neck, or so stuck inrumination of What didn't I do
to prepare for this moment, itjust had to come back to right
now, still with the aim ofheading toward the podium. But I
couldn't focus on that we can'tfocus on that when we're
actually trying to take thesteps to, you know, living into
(19:32):
what we want
Elizabeth Solomon (19:33):
now being fully present in the process
instead of to oriented on theoutcome.
Sasha Dingle (19:38):
Yeah, and we can cultivate it. 100%. So yeah, I
might have had an affinitytoward this. But absolutely, my
mindfulness practice has hashelped me to fine tune it or to
apply it where it reallysupports me so my dad started
bringing me to yoga class withhim when I was eight. I think
that I also had a contemplativeapproach to most sports because
(20:01):
they are they take placeoutdoors. And that was where I
felt like I belonged, and feltthe most comfortable in these
different arenas in my life. Andso growing up in Vermont, there
was always this strong sense ofplace in the natural world, I
mean, I would get lost all thetime in the woods and explore.
And I think that is acontemplative life in child
(20:25):
form. And so the way that Iapproached even competitive
sports involves this, I mean, Iremember even in high school,
doing a lot of the same sort oflike pre event rituals I do now
or pull from before I go topublic speak, or something like
that. And they're actually thesame practices. And so I was
finding ways to ground my body,check in with my mind, notice,
(20:47):
when fear was there, fine tuneit, so it couldn't get in the
way, look at the mountains, youknow, because they inspired me
and gave me sort of the sense ofcomfort that they were around me
in the start gate, but alsoreminding myself to not get too
lost and how beautiful they are,or too lost in visions of myself
on the podium. And so thispresent moment focused, sort of
(21:11):
functional approach. And thestart gate was always a part of
this for me. And then I wasstudying psychology in college,
and I picked up these books thatwere at the intersection of
psychiatry, and Buddhistpsychology. And that's when I
realized that you could reallytrain and amplify and cultivate
these qualities of mind.
Elizabeth Solomon (21:33):
So curious, and you talk about kind of
mitigating fear, if there areany strategies that you can
share with our listeners aboutwhat happens for you when a
fearful thought arises? And whatare some of the simple tools
that you draw on to coachyourself through that,
Sasha Dingle (21:46):
I think the strategies I was using, you
know, in high school, andthrough my early career as an
athlete, were, in a way,disregarding my body. And so it
worked. In that when fear showedup in my system, I could just
put it aside and block it outand go. But as an older athlete,
(22:08):
with a little more wisdom andinjury and illness along the
way, I realized that that is nota sustainable approach. And so
it does work. And we also haveto I have to look at sort of
what is the intentionalitybehind this strategy? So more of
like a middle point of the twonow, it's almost this intimacy
(22:30):
with fear, like reallydiscerning, what is this
emotion? Or what is this signal?
For me, I really tend to noticethe sensations in my body more
than I noticed, like thought aslike an inner critic or
something like that. And so forme, these signals kind of show
up as sensation. And so I'll usestrategies to kind of ground
(22:52):
find somewhere else in my bodyto place the tension if these
sorts of physiology of fear isshowing up. But it's, it's
really important to notice thesignal and then figure out what
it means especially with fearbecause fear keeps us safe. And
so it was looking at when fearshowing up as I'm standing at
the top of this, you know,narrow shoe, I can't see my
(23:13):
landing or in the start gate,high stakes, you know, high risk
situation, fear of showing upand trying to discern, does this
mean that this just looks scary?
And any normal human being wouldbe feeling fear right now
because of how it looks, butit's well within my ability, or
(23:34):
is this fear here because thisfear is going to keep me safe
today, and today is not the dayI need to back off. I need to
walk away from this. That's sortof the process that I've adopted
in being with fear. Hmm,
Elizabeth Solomon (23:49):
really attuning to the sensations and
then understanding do they fitfor the context? Or is this kind
of a primal or almost a rationalresponse? I'm wondering, just to
have you talk a little bit aboutthat of that transition for you
from dissociating as a as atechnique to integrating and
(24:10):
really being with your entireexperience.
Sasha Dingle (24:13):
Okay, so really, the realization came about when
I was on my way to compete atthe Enduro World Series over
crank works week in Whistler,and this was sort of what I was
calling my second career as anathlete. I had gone through post
(24:33):
health issues I grabbed formountain biking because it felt
more freeing. It felt like therewas a learning curve that was
exciting. I was on my way tocompete up at the Enduro World
Series at Whistler, and I calledmy coach who was training me at
the time and I told her I justrealized for the very first time
(24:55):
after 15 years competing at aninternational level that at the
deepest level, I don't believein myself. And so that was a
moment that came out of thisforced having to pull back from,
you know, my career as anathlete. And that's actually
probably the lesson for me oflooking at achievement and what
(25:18):
feeds me because because thisplace of competition or this
this life of an athlete waswhere I had built my identity.
In such a strong way, it waswhere I found my belonging, when
I wasn't finding that in thehuman community or in other
areas of my life, I held on tothat so strongly, and, and yes,
(25:40):
it was my strength ofresilience. So that, you know, I
could build my expectations sohigh and below past others
expectations for me. But it wasalso there was a flip side to
that, I had to look at what wasfeeding that drive, even feeding
that resilience. And that sortof continuation of just keeping
going forward no matter what.
And when I really stopped andlooked, it was these things
(26:03):
like, I don't know, if I'menough, I don't know if I belong
here. But like I had pushed thatinner critic so far down, I
really didn't even hear it'sbeen an exercise in noticing
that there is a voice that cansay these things, it was so
shoved deep that for me, thisinner critic showed up in the
form of sensations in my body,what started to become my
(26:26):
reality was that the accumulatedload over time, I had kind of
reached a breaking point. So andit was interesting that it took
place right after probably thebest competition season of my
life. So I had straight out ofcollege, I had got a Fulbright
(26:47):
grant to go teach at auniversity in Vietnam. 23 year
old baby bass professor had noidea what I was doing. But I had
always simultaneously been I wascompeting on a freeskiing World
Tour, you know, while going tocollege. This was the one year
that I put competition on hold,went to Vietnam, and part of
(27:08):
wanting to go was I had startedto accumulate some losses in the
sport, I had lost friends to thesport. And when I came back, I,
you know, had a hunger for a newwhat I wanted was ready to come
back to winter, with a veryclear idea of wanting to qualify
for the Freeride World Tour. Andso had this season of being on
(27:29):
the podium, every single eventof the season, winning the final
event winning the title, youknow, getting this dream of
competing, going to Europecompeting kind of at the top of
the sport. And I guess there wasthis peace of sort of arriving
there in a way and realizingthat nothing changes. I think my
dad even told me, Don't forgetto work as hard for this, as
(27:51):
you've been working all along.
It was like there was no reliefin a way. But the health issues
were so confronting that I mean,I lost like 20 pounds in the
middle of ski season all thisweight and muscle I've been
building since I was 14powerlifting as a young ski
racer. So the drastic shift forme as someone who had always
(28:14):
counted on my body, use it as mytool, and depended on it to
suddenly not being able to, todepend on it. It was an identity
loss, it sort of felt like abetrayal from my body. You know,
it was these lessons learnedthat I think most of us don't
need to learn until we're in our80s. And so that was the gift in
(28:36):
how it shaped my trajectory withthese lessons. But it was really
hard. It was really confronting,like the rug just got pulled out
from under me. And it wasn'teven a possibility to do the
things that I loved at the levelI wanted or really even have the
energy to, you know, go out andbe with friends, which I also
love or give to myrelationships.
Elizabeth Solomon (28:59):
How would you talk about the shifting of goals
in that moment. And, you know,the shifting of goal being from
winning to focusing on yourhealth,
Sasha Dingle (29:06):
that is actually probably when I grabbed for my
yoga and my meditation practicelike a lifeline and, and
deepened it. I've already beengoing on silent retreat for some
years before. But that was whenI really had to look at some of
these strategies that were maybeleading to successes in these
(29:29):
different areas of performancefor me, but they weren't going
to be able to lead to successforever, right? They weren't
sustainable strategies. Sothat's when I really started to
pay more attention to thesignals of my body. Pain forces
you to do that those signals arestrong, those sensations grab
your attention. But luckily, forme, even after the pain went
(29:51):
away and the illness was manage,you know, I still had to pay
attention to those signals ofsensations. And so I use that to
try Aren't my training plans andeven the load on my nervous
system kind of from there on.
And it was a more integratedkind of holistic approach to
even training like, even ifbecause, you know, our stressors
(30:14):
don't compartmentalize to piecesof our life, it's not like, if
you're fighting fires at workall day, you can then just put
that aside, in the sake of likea training plan. I mean, that
was maybe when I started to seeas well is, I was doing heart
rate training. And I noticedthat if I had a very stressful
(30:34):
day at work, fighting fires,kind of constant change, I
actually couldn't achieve mytraining goals, because the
purpose of training as anathlete is to add a load stress
load to your system. That's justenough that leads to adapting,
but not so much that it leads toburnout or injury. And so, yeah,
(30:55):
it led to just a morecomprehensive look at what's the
load that I'm carrying? And howdo I integrate this,
Elizabeth Solomon (31:04):
I'm wondering, you know, as you came
to that realization, thatunderneath this desire to
achieve right underneath all theapplause, that you are getting
for being resilient and winningawards, and being on the podium,
that there was this other sortof quality of emptiness or
questioning of self worth, whathappened after that,
Sasha Dingle (31:25):
for me, personally, it shaped my career
as an athlete to be somethingthat actually had me performing
at a higher level. And for me,as a meditation teacher, it
channeled this into the heart ofwhat I teach. So I have really
been gravitating toward themindful performance enhancement
(31:47):
kind of around resilience andfocus and flow. And so I got to
channel all these lessons intosome of the teaching that I was
doing. I've been really leaningon this idea of commitment to
these things that are reallyimportant to me, I actually
better slow down or take care ofme along the way, so that I can
(32:11):
always be doing this. So that'sbeen the biggest shift in
approach, I think, and theoutcome, honestly, is the same
or even strengthened, because itwill allow these to continue.
Elizabeth Solomon (32:23):
I know you have your entrepreneurial peers,
you have your biking peers, youhave your skiing peers. But I'm
curious, how does the dialoguediffer among those groups around
this sense of understandingachievement, not just in the
short term, but over theduration of one's life,
understanding one's commitmentto one's business or the sport,
(32:46):
or to the outdoors andconnecting to that in a way that
is deep enough to say, Okay, I'mgoing to take care of myself,
despite this burning urge, Ihave to kind of push it to the
edge, because I hear you talkingabout this. But I'm wondering is
that a conversation that's isheld elsewhere.
Sasha Dingle (33:03):
At a high level, I think that, interestingly
enough, if we can sort of likefoster the wisdom from this, I
think athletes, in some wayshave an advantage, or like maybe
one step closer towardunderstanding the process that's
needed in a mindfulness practiceand meditation practice, because
(33:25):
they're already familiar withtraining. And that's the same
thing. It's this daily orongoing exercise to build these
capacities of mind. And so in away, it's like if I'm working
with a leader, or a doctor, andthey, you know, love to climb,
(33:45):
or they used to play soccer,when they were a kid, like we
have a language there that Ithink actually really serves the
training itself. Because there'sso much similarity, it's more
abstract, in a way theseconcepts around training the
mind,
Elizabeth Solomon (33:58):
I'm interested in just talking a
little bit about balancing thatindividual need to achieve with
supporting a team knowing thatthe team's achievement also
matters and having to depend onother people as well.
Sasha Dingle (34:13):
I've found that this played out for me in my ski
life, and that I kind of gotused to doing it alone. You
know, being in these maledominated spaces is one of the
only females in both sport andwork. I really just got used to
depending on my self, but Ithink that earlier in my ski
(34:35):
career, if I had seen the valueof even having, you know, a
woman, or I have Vietnamese or abrown woman, I'm at the top of
the podium and the top of thesport and the value of that for
kids and others that actuallymight have been a larger
motivation that could havecarried me through some of these
challenging moments and depthsin the sport. So that has been
(35:00):
In a big piece in me coming backand just realizing I am part of
something that felt veryindividual and what I was
pushing for, and pushing forwardbut has a lot of impact. And
that actually feeds me to keepgoing.
Elizabeth Solomon (35:15):
I'm wondering how has that informed how you
model achievement, who you feellike you are even modeling
achievement for right? There's awhole other pocket of society,
you know, namely women of color,for whom your achievements model
something that helps them raiseto their own desires and goals?
Sasha Dingle (35:36):
Yeah, I've started to see that anyone who really
excels at their craft providesan inspiration for someone else
to find, what is that thing thatI really care about? Or want to
take to that same level? Like,what is the thing that I made
for? And so I'm in working withathletes, I think that's a
(35:57):
reminder to them of the value ofan athlete, it actually is a
contribution to society, I thinkin this way that it models this
drive and this commitment, andthis understanding around
failure and challenge along theway that I think can ignite some
really good motivations and, andwisdom applied anywhere. And so
(36:19):
in working with clients, andespecially with working with
teenagers, I'm really lookingfor like, what is that place in
your life that really lights youup that there's a lot of energy
around, it could be knitting, itcould be cooking, it could be
managing teams, it could be yoursport life, and wherever we can
find that place, that those arenot teenage examples that I
(36:40):
wouldn't do adults, but we canfind that place, especially
important to foster early, thenwe can amplify that into these
other areas of life, where maybeit's not showing up as much, or
these skills are nottranslating.
Elizabeth Solomon (36:56):
I'm curious to hear a little bit about the
teenagers you work with andtheir relationship to
achievement and how that mightbe similar or different from
your own relationship toachievement as a team.
Sasha Dingle (37:05):
Yeah, man, I think the pressures that teens are
under and even working incollege students are more than
when we were young, even justin, you know, the structure of
academics and the pathway tocollege. The one difference that
I think is important is that,you know, my drive to excel came
(37:29):
from within, and my parents werethis very hands off support in
that they were basically like,you can go and do whatever it is
you want to do, and we've gotyour back. But I think the
winding path, is really key toget to that place of of what is
(37:51):
it that I meant to do? What isit that is going to be sort of
me in my flow, because you haveto discover that we don't know
that instantly. As a kid, wemight have an idea. But there's
a lot that needs to emergethere. So I think that feels
different in that and that also,my cousin is also a professional
(38:12):
skier. And we've talked aboutthis approach, because a lot of
the skiers that I grew upcompeting with just don't ski
anymore, it's very common forburnout to have happened young
in that sport. And so I think apiece of this is like, is the
motivation from within? Or is itbecause someone else is telling
(38:33):
me that this is the thing I needto do in order to be successful
in order to make it in order toget into college. So yeah, I
think fostering that windingpath able to get lost. I mean,
literally my parents didn'talways know where we were, we
had this these woods to explorein and we could just kind of at
some point hit a dirt road andwalk back home and orient walk
(38:56):
back home. And so that processof getting lost and being
comfortable with getting lostbecause I knew I could orient
and find my way back at somepoint was something that I think
is is unique and different. Andso that's maybe some of what we
get to explore in a meditationpractice. We explore we get lost
we don't know why something isshowing up. And then we have a
(39:18):
conversation and maybe we startto inquire and piece the threads
together.
Elizabeth Solomon (39:23):
I love that actually want to hear you say a
little bit more about that.
Sasha Dingle (39:26):
Yeah, I mean, I think I'll lose my credibility
with any team clients to saythis but yeah, I mean, I think
for me social media is somethingthat I have to manage and keep
some distance with and someparameters around because I
think that I mean I grew up withlike, not really even TV I've as
(39:48):
an adult I don't own my own TV.
You know I'll have it when myhouse I share with my partner
has it or a roommate has it butI've never really gone and
bought my own TV. We had for twoAnd I was on a good day melee
three growing up. And so thatwas actually really functional,
I think in my ability to keeppushing forward in my
(40:09):
professional and my athletelife, because people didn't look
like me in the places I wasgoing, or didn't share my
experience as a multiracialwoman. And I think had I seen
the reality of how uncommon thatwas, or infrequent it was that I
was seeing someone who lookedlike me represented, maybe that
(40:31):
would have sunk in. But becauseI wasn't even seeing that I
could keep just being me movingforward in these places, where
it was uncommon to be at thetime. So I do really think I
mean, I even see myself to it.
Now I really try to curate whatI'm consuming in the form of
(40:54):
social media and media ingeneral. And what is the impact?
Elizabeth Solomon (40:58):
Yeah, and I'm also hearing that it keeps you
oriented to an inner experience,right? So you get, you're
getting to sort of meander anddiscover and explore and live
with those sensations of like,what actually lights me up? What
actually motivates me? Versuswhat am I seeing in the external
environment that is both likedefining who I can and can't be.
But it's also sort of settingthese kind of arbitrary goals,
(41:21):
right of what I'm supposed towant? What's valuable in our
society?
Sasha Dingle (41:26):
Yeah, I mean, we need those role models and those
relationships that we can gainfor social media and media in
general, for inspiration andcreativity. But I think, if we
notice that it's actuallyconstraining what we think we're
capable of, or what we'reallowing ourselves to do, that's
when, for me, I need to block itout.
Elizabeth Solomon (41:47):
How do you understand where your sense of
faith and hope and competencecome from?
Sasha Dingle (41:52):
How Yeah, that's a great point that faith and hope
and confidence are necessary intandem with achievement. Because
when we're really pushing forthings that are new, when we've
never done before, me maybesomething that no one has ever
done before. We need hope andfaith and confidence from
(42:15):
somewhere. I think that, for me,it came from this desire to get
to feel like me, to have theseplaces where I could actually,
like I explained before, justkind of tap into some of these
things that I knew I was capableof. But society perhaps was not
(42:37):
agreeing. I think hope and faithalso came from just like the
value of the constant path oftransformation, that is this
quest for achievement. I mean,we, I really found the value of
competition to be how frequentlyI had to come up against
(42:58):
challenges. And we know that,you know, challenges are those
the moments that transform us inour life, or make us have to
grab for these capabilities thatwe might have not even known
were possible in us or learn newskills, or pivot and head off in
a completely differenttrajectory. And the reality of
(43:18):
an athlete life is you arefacing challenges every day.
That's what a training plan is.
That's what competition is, it'sa purposeful load of challenge.
That's just enough that you cantransform and adapt. Yeah, so
there's just like that. Thatfeeling of transformation to me
feels like a source of life.
(43:38):
Like it's just there's so muchvitality there. A lot of purpose
there. It's like I'm living aslong as I'm continuing to pivot
and stretch and strengthen andrest and heal. I mean, because
that is a part of that processis well, the athletes know,
while it's like you are restdays are built into our training
(44:00):
plans. That's one thing that'sdifferent from my professional
life, or most professionallives. You know, a lot of us as
professionals, it's like we arehaving to achieve at the highest
level all year long, the all daylong all year long. And athletes
actually have rest months, oryou do a big push in a workout.
And then you have a rest daybuilt in. And so I try to
(44:22):
remember that as well, in myprofessional life, to build in
those moments for renewal andrest.
Elizabeth Solomon (44:29):
Sasha tell us what you're working on now.
Sasha Dingle (44:31):
Yeah, so I just came back from 10 days of a film
project. So a weather window fora ski film called Nexus. It's an
all women's ski film. And I havea segment with my cousin Kristen
Norman, and we're telling thestory of our moms both coming to
the US as Vietnam war refugeesfalling in love with skiing and
(44:54):
then passing it on to us and howwe're taking that gift of that
Love of skiing, kind of to payit forward and the different
ways that we're shaping the skiindustry and greater impacts as
well.
Elizabeth Solomon (45:07):
When will people be able to see that film?
When is that due for release?
Sasha Dingle (45:10):
So that'll be premiering in fall of 2022.
Elizabeth Solomon (45:15):
Looking forward to seeing that. Thank
you so much, Sasha. This hasbeen such a wonderful
conversation. There's so muchincredible wisdom in here. And I
just want to thank you forjoining us today and speaking so
beautifully and eloquently toyour first person experience of
being an achiever.
Sasha Dingle (45:32):
Absolutely, thanks for giving me the opportunity to
do it.
Kerry Seed (45:45):
Thanks for listening to first person plural EI and
beyond. Remember, the DanGoleman wants to hear your
questions at Keystonemedia.com/ask Dan. That's
Keystep media.com/ask Dan. Whileyou're there, follow us on
social media and sign up for ournewsletter. And be sure to tune
(46:05):
in next time when Daniel Golemantalks conflict management with
psychologist best selling authorand professor George coal
reserves. George has aninteresting background. And I've
been held hostage four timesmyself. Join us to hear what he
learned from those experiences.
We care about supporting you onyour ei journey and helping you
(46:27):
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is brought to you by our COhosts Daniel Goleman, Hanuman
Goleman and Elizabeth Solomon.
It's sponsored by Keystep media,your source for personal and
(47:13):
professional developmentmaterials focused on
mindfulness, leadership andemotional intelligence. Special
thanks go out to Matteo whosevoice you heard at the top of
the show, and today's guestSasha dig. For guest BIOS
transcripts and resourcesmentioned in today's episode,
check out our episode notes onour website first person
(47:33):
plural.com This episode waswritten and produced by
Elizabeth Solomon and me Carrieseed audio production by
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