August 26, 2025 • 39 mins
It's a Black Marriage Monday and we are joined by Ralph Richard Banks, the Jackson Eli Reynolds Professor of Law at Stanford Law School and a professor, by courtesy, at the Stanford Graduate School of Education. He is the Founder and Faculty Director of the Stanford Center for Racial Justice. He is also the author of the book "Is Marriage for White People: How the African American Marriage Decline Affects Everyone."
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
All right, Andy, I wouldn't call this a Black Marriage
Monday song, but thank you for reminding me that it
is Shockg's b day. Happy Solar Return, Happy heaven Lee
birthday to a real one. Uh yeah, shock G Digital
Undergrounds really kind of brain child. I mean that was
(00:24):
his brain child, Digital Underground, and he was the driving
force behind that. Definitely gone too soon, Rest in peace,
shock G. Greg was a real one, for sure. He
meant that do what you liked. That wasn't just humpty,
He meant that irl. But it is a Black Marriage Monday,
and maybe that is the secret to a healthy marriage.
(00:48):
I don't know. We're being joined by a professor of
law at the Stanford Law School, a professor at the
by Ker to See at the Stanford Graduate School of Education.
This day we're talking relationships. He's also an expert in
(01:10):
that field, is written on the field. And I call
it Black Marriage Monday because I just want to remind
us to tap in. But everybody's welcome. I want us
to remind us to tap in and make sure that
we know that we are going to be spending time
(01:31):
on this topic of relationships love marriage. So welcome back
to the show. Rick banks.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
Thank you, Dominic. It's so good to be with you,
and you're really taking me back with the humpty there.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
Yeah, So is do what you like? Is that a
Is that a formula for a happy marriage?
Speaker 2 (01:52):
That is definitely not a formula for a happy marriage.
And even more, I don't know if there's a formula
for a happy life. You know, you need to have
some times where you do what you like, but you
need to have other times where you're thinking about other
people and what they may like.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
Okay, well, your book is Marriage Just for White People?
Is kind of it's a controversial topic. I know you
did I mean a title. I know you did that
to get people talking, to get people thinking, but that
is sort of a stereotype, and I get I think
it's one of the reasons why I named this Black
(02:33):
Marriage Monday, because we talk a lot about not only
the perception that white folks are more likely to get
married and stay married, but this idea that marriage in
the African American community has been on the decline, right right, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
This is the grid. I don't know if you remember,
but more than a decade ago, when that book came
out as Marriage for White People, we did a session.
I think we did a session in the studio. Yeah,
and uh it was wonderful and you were great, and
we had a lot of great a lot of great callers.
And I think the issues are even more pressing now.
The underlying issue, Just to be clear, it's not it's
not really marriage per se. The real issue is that
(03:17):
the biggest and most important decision anyone can make in
their life, the single most important decision, is who to
partner with, most important decision in life. It will shape
your life, it will shape the generations that follow. And
it's probably a better thing to have a partner than
to not have a partner.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
So when you say who to partner with, you talking
about in marriage and business, in living together, in anything.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
I mean and no, I mean I mean in the
intimate reankly, because that's the you know, that's the foundation
of life. Right. Your business partners can change across time. Uh,
you know that all can shift. But once you decide
to partner with so one and once you have a
child with them, you will never not have a relationship
with them. They will always be connected to you.
Speaker 3 (04:07):
Right.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
The relationship will change, but you will never not have
the relationship. So the decision about who to partner with,
who to have children with, single most important decision your life,
which has you know, far reaching effects not only for
you but for your children obviously. And I think that
that African Americans need to and you know, I don't.
You know, this issue is kind of caught up in
(04:29):
the culture wars where you know, yeah, some people are
saying do what you liked, other people saying we need
the traditional family, and we really need to move beyond
that culture war struggle and just recognize that, Hey, everybody
wants to have somebody there with them, and everybody wants
to have support. Everybody wants to give support, and so
it's worthwhile thinking about how to do that in a
(04:50):
way that is life affirming for you and the other
people in your life.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
Yeah, I think that's right. I do you think we don't.
We don't realize the gravity of that decision. You know,
in the black community, we just because people, I mean,
some folks a baby by this one, a baby by
that one, or some folks are just you know, going
based on I don't know, just purely how someone looks
(05:17):
or some kind of Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
Yeah, yeah, all that's bad. Yeah, So the first first
point is that. And this is for people generally, not
just black people, but everybody needs to understand that. Again,
the most important decision you make in your life is
who you decide to partner with, right and and that's
because relationships are so central to who we are, to
what we can aspire to, to what we can achieve,
(05:40):
to our health, to everything. So you have to put
a lot of energy into relationships. You know, older I get,
the more important relationships would come. And so if you
can realize that early, that's a good thing. And and
so that's really the foundation. And I just think it's
a lot of thought, and I think the strategy for
(06:02):
success there, frankly, is not what people think. Usually people
think that the goal is to find someone who makes
them happy, and that's always always the wrong approach because
this other person is not going to make you happy.
That for sure will not work. It won't. Here's the
paradox is that the better approach to finding a good
(06:26):
partner and finding a good relationship is to actually find
someone that you want to make happy. That's the paradox, right,
You need to and that means that you value them,
you see something in them that you appreciate, You see
things in them that you want to nurture, that you
want to grow, that you want to contribute to, that
you want to be more a part of the world.
(06:47):
And if you really want to pour your soul into
someone else and hopefully they want to pour themselves into you,
that at least gives you a chance of having a
sustained long term relationship.
Speaker 1 (06:57):
Yeah. If there are some people who are just people
pleasers want to make everybody they meet.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
Happy, well that's another problem. Right, No, that's another problem.
That is that's another It can't be there has to
be something distinctive about the person that and and you know,
and that's you know, yeah, that's another problem. If you
want to make everyone happy, that's a that's a therapy
problem there, because that's not that's not conducive to well
(07:25):
being either. But you but no, really, you should want
to find somebody whose values you resonate with, whose you
know aspirations you think are good, aspirations in the world,
who have ideas about life that you think are like
good ideas, right and good, they have a good approach,
and there's something in them that like opens up your
spirit and makes you want to bolster and nurture their spirit.
Speaker 4 (07:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
So the other comment that you made that I wanted
to follow up with is this idea that we need
to move beyond the culture wars. And it's a two
side question on the one and I feel like a
lot of that stuff is very online. I read that,
you know, black men and women hate each other, and
then I go to parties and I see people hugged up,
cuddled up, living together. Mary, is it all you think
(08:12):
it's also very online?
Speaker 2 (08:14):
That's a great point. Yes, it's a great point. I
mean this is this is true not only around relationship issues.
This is true about all sorts of issues. They make
a great mistake, you know, when we think that what
happens online is real life, because you know the reality
is that the extreme voices get amplified online. Yeah, right,
and so you have people from the you know, the
(08:34):
far left and the far right. You had these people
at all these extreme views and they're fighting it out online.
The worst thing you can do is the mistake that
for people generally right, because most people are not doing that.
That's a small percentage of people who are engaged in
that sort of stuff. Most people are just living their lives,
trying to figure things out, trying to move ahead, trying
to form good relationships, trying to make progress the work,
(08:56):
trying to raise their children. They don't have time to
be made, you know, fifty posts a day?
Speaker 1 (09:02):
Yeah, hello now. And not only that, some of those
people that are making those extreme posts are in a
happy marriage where they do none of the things they
say online.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
Oh yeah, there's there's a performativity to us.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 2 (09:15):
Yeah, people are trying to do things on them. I
mean it's really you know, social media has a lot
of great aspects, but it's also very corrosive. And you're
identifying part of one of the ways in which is
corrosive is that it can kind of pull out the
worst of people, right, and it has been doing things
that they don't even believe because they want to get
(09:37):
attention and get likes and so forth. And so you know,
we all need to have a balance in our lives.
And you know, I think real relationships are usually relationships
that are in person, with people sitting across tables looking
at each other, touching each other, hugging each other. I mean,
you know, that's how we I mean, really, that's how
humans evolved was to orient to touch in physical present,
(10:01):
So you know, we don't want to forget how important
that is in our lives.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
Talking with author law professor Rick Banks, it's a black
marriage Monday. You sound like my mama. She used to say,
friends know where their friends live. She was talking about Facebook.
Friends know where their friends live. Yeah, we'll continue this
conversation relationships. How do we get their black marriage? Monday
on KBLA Talk fifteen eighty. I do appreciate you being here.
(10:30):
I always do. And I'm talking with professor Rick Banks.
You're a law professor, but you've written a book which
has become sort of a classic. And I guess I
never really asked you that. What made a law professor
write a book on black marriage? It's called His Marriage
for White People How the African American marriage decline affects everyone.
Speaker 2 (10:54):
Well, so I teach a lot of courses among his
family law, which has been one of my areas I
focused on. And uh, you know, family law is just
about all the things that happened within families and how
the lawulates them. Right, So that that kind of took
me to the to the the marriage issue. And uh,
and of course there's always autobiography behind uh projects. And uh,
(11:18):
you know, my own experience is just you know, realizing
how important family uh is because my you know, my
mother died when I was nine years old, she had cancer,
had three older sisters, my father. I was the last
of the line, as they said, My father was sixty
years old when she died. And uh, you know, it
(11:39):
was only decades later that I realized that he never
remarried in part because he had children and he wanted
to keep his focus on the on the children, uh,
in raising the children. And uh so that kind of
dis didn't planet within me the importance of family and
and how we you know, our our commitments to families
(12:00):
and to our children and and and one of the
things that I saw for this book in particular that
really bothered me that I thought was a problem, uh
was that you know a lot of times black women
felt like they had to sacrifice their own happiness basically
because they needed to be committed to sort of black
(12:22):
men both in the in the astract and you know,
also in their in their own lives. And uh you
know that led to relationships that were not the right relationships, frankly,
and uh so I wanted to let black women know that.
You know, sometimes you can when you do the best
for you, I mean, doing the best for the group
can also be doing the best for you. I mean,
(12:44):
you deserve to be happy, You deserve to have good
things in your life. You deserve to have men in
your life that that are fulfilled. You know that that
that invigorate you and enrich your life. And you shouldn't
circumscribe your choices, uh in that regard. So you know,
that was a big point in the book too.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
Yeah, so that means that might mean looking outside your
own ethnic group, right.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
Exactly. And it's just frankly, what people of other races do?
I mean, black men? I mean, I think that again,
the biggest decision that you make in your life is
who you decide to partner with, have children with. And
it's hard, for a lot of reasons in our society
right to find a good a good relationship, the person
that's right for you and to make it work. It's
really hard to do it. Why make it harder by
(13:29):
trying to limit yourself to you know, people of one race,
right or one group. And you know, most people now
are actually open to dating or marrying people from you know,
various backgrounds, and you know, black women for a long
time were the exception to that.
Speaker 1 (13:47):
I think it's still mostly true, to be honest with you,
most of my friends, most of the women that I know,
even the ones that say they're going to date outside
their race mostly or ethnic group, mostly they don't.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
Yeah. Well, I think there's things are changing now though,
I think I mean even you know, think about I mean,
think about the most prominent Black women in the United
States right now. I mean the tutor come to my mind,
being a lawyer and law professor, Kamala Harris and Satanji
Brown Jackson, right, and they both have have white husbands.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
And they've been widely disparaged for it by both black
men and women.
Speaker 2 (14:27):
I don't think they should be. I don't think they
should be disparaged at all all.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
I mean, whether they should be or not, they are.
That's my point is that it just I don't think
it's changed that much.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
Well, I think it's again, you know, I think it
might be changing on the ground. You know, you might
have a lot of stuff on social media where there's
a lot of people.
Speaker 1 (14:47):
And on the radio.
Speaker 2 (14:49):
Yeah, but we talk about people in there in their
actual lives. You know, the reality is that, you know,
we live in a society where you know, people are
in workplaces, they're in social settings where you are meeting
people at different races. And I think there are a
lot of black women, frankly right now who are realizing that, Hey,
you know, even though I might have started thinking, you know,
(15:10):
I have to be with the black guy, now I'm realizing, well,
maybe I don't have to be with a black guy.
There are a lot of other guys out there, you know.
There are you know, not only white guys, but you
have a lot of Latinos and a lot you have
Middle Eastern men. You have men from all kind of
different backgrounds, and uh, you know, sometimes I might have
(15:31):
commonality with them. And I think there are a lot
of women who are starting to realize that. And I
think that's a good thing, right, If it's something that
you know, if you can find someone you can love
and be happy with, you should do that. You should
not reject them or bypass them because of their race,
or their religion or their background, or because you're you know,
(15:54):
some of your aunties or uncles might not like it, right,
you shouldn't do that or religion.
Speaker 1 (15:59):
Really, you think because that seems like it could be
more of an issue, right if you guys have different faith.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
Oh, it could be, it could be and and you
know all and all, I mean you know again these
are you know, these are complicated decisions, and you know
there could be I mean if you are a devout
uh you know, Catholic and other person's a you know,
very devout you know, Jewish person, I mean that that
could be a conflict, right, because you need to think
about how you're going to raise the children, right, So
(16:31):
you know you need to work all those issues out.
And this is not to say that those issues are
not important, but it is to say that you shouldn't
give race this like overriding importance and make that kind
of more important than everything else. And then you know,
discount all the other aspects of compatibility. And you know,
religion is one of those aspects of compatibility too. I mean,
(16:52):
if if you know, if one person is is really
secular and the other person is really religious, no matter
what the religion is, like, that could be an issue
in a relationship and in a family. So you know
you need to think about that too. And I will say,
you know, one of the things that people can easily
under under value is the importance of having a common
(17:13):
view of how to raise children right. And that's and
it's easy to undervalue that because before you have children,
you don't think about it.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
Right.
Speaker 2 (17:20):
Once you have the children, you know, you realize that
you all might have completely different visions about what should
happened with these children, and you know that obviously can
be a source of conflict that can drive people apart.
So again, I mean this goes back to having shared values.
You need to have some shared values in visions of
life and kind of how to be in the world.
(17:40):
But if you have that, that's that's a good foundation.
And you know, having that doesn't necessarily mean that you
are of the same race or even of the same religion.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
Kids, money, and sex. I think those are the three
main things people forget to talk about before they get
married that can end up making them not stay married.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
This is true. I remember oh Man told me years ago,
this is a man I was dating his daughter. In fact,
we didn't get married. I was dating his daughter and
he told me, you know, if you and my daughter
stay together and get married, I want to let you
know that you're going to argue about two things, he said,
money and sex, and you're going to argue about them
in that order. In fact, he was correct, No, he
(18:23):
was correct. You know, people have a lot of emotions
and a lot of buried emotions about money and sex.
And you know, people have a lot of shame in
some ways about money and sex, and it's hard to
talk about both of those topics. So, you know, and again,
in relationships, it's better to be able to talk more
(18:44):
rather than less. You need to have a sense of
vulnerability and a sense of so you can be open
to each other and you can talk about things where
you might feel a tinge of shame or you might
otherwise not be inclined to share.
Speaker 1 (19:00):
You know, we started off talking about online and the
follow up question we didn't quite get to. We've got
two minutes here before news, traffic and sports, is how
do we move past that, the superficial, the comparative, because
everyone always makes their thing look perfect online. How do
we move past that to the real issues of connection?
Speaker 2 (19:21):
Yeah, well I think people, you know, people really connect, frankly,
despite what online may tell us. Not when they're talking
about how great their lives are and all their accomplishments
and so forth. People. People connect when they show their vulnerability,
right when when you share with each other the things
you worry about are the things that you that you
hope for but you're not sure what happened. When you
(19:45):
talk about disappointments, you talk about failures, and when the
other person can listen, right when you have a curiosity
about each other. So you want to understand this for
the person and they want to understand you. That's where
the connection comes from. And that's where you can see
if you if you have the same values. So you know,
I would just encourage people to try to, you know,
(20:07):
be open to sharing yourself so that you can form
that connection. Uh And as you say, you can't do
that online. This needs to have been in person, you know,
real life, when you're physically together.
Speaker 1 (20:21):
So does that mean the dating apps are out?
Speaker 2 (20:25):
Dating apps can be very helpful, you know they can.
They can help you and you know some more than others,
but you know they can help you sift through this
huge number of people and a lot of people. I'm
sure we all know a lot of people who found
good partners on dating apps. Yep. Yeah, But the keys
that you know, the app is kind of a way
(20:46):
to sift through a lot of people. But then the
real work begins once you actually have the person in
front of you, right, and now you have to see
if this is a has the makings of a real relationship,
and you know it and it can be, you know,
very rewarding. You know to have a good relationship, but
(21:07):
you know it also takes time and it takes energy,
and you can't always do what you like.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
But that's like do what you like. Shock. Sorry. I
will continue our conversation with Rick Banks after News, Traffic
and Sports on KBLA Talk fifteen eighty. Ay BLA Talk
fifteen eighty We're talking with law professor Rick Banks on
a Black marriage Monday. His book is Marriage for White
People put things in stark relief from an academic standpoint
(21:36):
but also a personal outlook based on conversations with a
whole bunch of people. And when we talk about this
marriage gap that black people, not just black women, Black
people are less likely to get married. Black women less
likely than anybody I believe to actually be married over
(21:58):
the course of our lifetime. It's not just because we're cursed,
just because we're mad at bad at marriage. Because we're
all hoes I mean there's like socioeconomic historical reasons for
this too, right.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
Yeah, the economic factors loom large, right. I mean one
of the you know, a big, big issue is that
it you know, it used to be the case that
you know, people would get married when they were young
and you know, you didn't have any money, you didn't
have much stability, but then you would kind of build
it over time. And now that's kind of shifted so
that people expect economic stability at the start of a marriage.
(22:36):
That's kind of a requirement to get married. Kind of
this old saying, uh no, no, no romance without finance.
Right right now, people's kind of no, no marriage without finance.
And you know, African Americans are despite advances, I mean,
we are disproportionately economically disadvantaged right in terms of income,
(23:01):
in terms of wealth, in terms of job security, and
all of that makes it hard to maintain relationships because
you know, as we mentioned earlier, one of the main
things you will fight about will be money, and that
that tears a lot of relationships apart. Uh, you know,
but the paradox is that or the irony maybe is
that you know, not having a strong financial foundation makes
(23:24):
it hard to get married and stay married and maintain
a partnership. But it's also true that if you can
maintain that partnership and work together, that can provide a
financial foundation, right, so you can move forward.
Speaker 1 (23:38):
Right? That is ironic? Yeah, black women earth? Is that
still true that black women are three times as likely
as white women to never marry.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
Well, it depends on how you how you calculate it.
It's hard to you know, it's hard and it's hard
to predict the future. But yes, it has been the
case that that you know, black women are uniquely unlikely
to marry or to stay married. But it's also and
it's also true that you know, marriage rates have been
declining in society generally. Uh, and you know those are
(24:09):
issues and the and the broader issue. Just to be
clear that you know, we don't want to you don't
even get fixated on on marriage. Really the issues really
just partnerships, right, And you know, if you it used
to be the case that if people were in a partnership,
they would get married. Now you know, sometimes you can
have people who are actually in a committed partnership for
a long time and they don't ever get married exactly.
(24:35):
That's okay too. It's but and the and you know,
my worry with African Americans is that, you know, African
Americans are in fact less likely to be partnered in
stable relationships than other groups. And that's especially true for
black women, and that that is an issue, right, that's
(24:55):
that's not it's not generally what those people want, frankly.
And it's not you know, not moving the race forward either, frankly.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
And so it's but it's not all about you know,
it's not all about love and or social interactions. Some
of it is economics. And what about the historical impact
of the fact that we had, you know, hundreds of
years where we were being separated by the system, you know,
(25:22):
because we were actually property.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
Yeah, no, it's true. I mean black people. This is
you know, one of the horrific aspects of slavery was
was really the you know, destruction of the black family
and the extent to which you know, you had white men,
you know, with power who exercised dominion over black people's
most you know, intimate lives. And you know, that's one
of the horrific aspects of slavery. One of the ironies, though,
(25:48):
is that you know, if you look through the nineteen forties, fifties, sixties,
African Americans were as likely to be married then as
white people. You know, there wasn't a merit gap during
that era. The relationship or the marriage gap really developed
in the seventies, eighties and nineties when you had the
(26:10):
demise of a lot of the jobs in which black
men depended, you know, all the blue collar jobs, industrial jobs.
You know, as the economy changed, black people really got
a bad deal and that and black men got a
bad deal in particular, and then that affected black women.
Speaker 1 (26:26):
Wow, that's fascinating. So the demise of those jobs, and
then I would imagine the flooding over our community with
first heroine and then crack did not help either.
Speaker 2 (26:39):
That did not help, right, This is I mean, it's yeah,
I mean yeah. You can think of the of the
status of the relationships in part as a reflection of
how healthy is the community, right, I mean, if people
are doing well, and then they're able to form relationships,
they're able to form families, they're able to stay together.
But when people are not doing well, right, when they're
(27:01):
when you have drug problems and all that that breeds.
When you people don't have jobs, they don't have stable employment.
That just just undermines the family and undermines relationships. And uh,
you know, we have been you know, the victims in
a sense of these broad macroeconomic changes which have made
it it made it very difficult for people to form families.
Speaker 1 (27:25):
Let's go to Allegria. Calling us from Los Angeles. Good morning,
You're on the air with Rick Banks.
Speaker 4 (27:29):
Welcome, Good morning, Geminique, and good morning U Rick Banks.
I'm calling because I in the subject of interracial dating
in Los Angeles. It seems like that's very little of
a problem. I see so many interracial relationships these to day.
Almost every new baby is half black that I see.
(27:52):
And I honestly when I see a couple, like I
met a beautiful couple last night and he introduces beautiful
brown woman, Oh it's my wife, and I want to
say congratulations, like thank you for choosing black and black Americans,
you know, I do, really, I think everybody deserves loves
and relationships, and I think there's so many non melanated,
you know, alibaster men coming up on beautiful black women,
(28:15):
which you know, great for them, you know, great for everybody. Sure,
but I'm really hoping that black Americans begin choosing each
other more, especially here in Los Angeles, you know, choosing
each other more, and we have more African descendant you know,
brown beautiful, hanky haired babies.
Speaker 1 (28:34):
I agree, or you're black.
Speaker 4 (28:37):
Half my dad, I'm black. In Mexicans, it's Corey Dominique.
Speaker 1 (28:43):
I call that. I call that, Yeah, I call that
the California blend Black Sican.
Speaker 2 (28:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (28:49):
Yeah, yeah, exactly totally.
Speaker 4 (28:52):
Which is which is it's fine, But in one generation
it can be gone. You could be like, you know,
you can be half black and then you you procreate
with somebody else and you kids are rarely black people.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
Yeah my homes.
Speaker 2 (29:05):
Yeah, so let me just let me let me just
kind of like one there or or thanks for that comment.
That's a waterful comic. Just just what what Actually two
points here. One one that of course it's a good
thing hate for black people to choose black people. I mean,
my my wife is African American. We grew up together
in Cleveland, Uh, in a neighborhood that was all black,
(29:27):
so you know, there weren't the white people around even
and uh, and that's a good thing, right, So I'm
not saying that that's not something that is a positive,
but it's also a positive for people just to find
people who love them and they can love whatever the race,
and and and and and the callers right on that
you know these you know, interracial relationships are more common
(29:49):
in places like California because they're great the great regional variation,
and California and registracial relationships are high because a lot
of people come to California from somewhere else, and when
you leave home, you're more likely to do what it
is you want to do, rather than doing what your
parents or your cousins or your aunties and uncles want
(30:10):
you to do, which you know might have happened had
you stayed in the place where you were born. And
one of the big, the big pressures to only marry
within the group comes from your your family. Right, And
so for all sorts of relationships, we see people crossing
boundaries once they move to a new place, right, you
(30:32):
can then it might be racial boundaries, religious boundaries, it
might be sexual orientation. Right, there're all sorts of boundaries
that people can cross when they come to California and
they're free to do what they want, rather than when
they're living up under their family and they feel the
pressures of the family to try to do what the
family wants them to do.
Speaker 1 (30:51):
Yeah, great points. Thank you for the call. Did you
want to say anything else?
Speaker 4 (30:56):
No, thank you guys that conversation.
Speaker 1 (30:58):
Yeah, great points. And they it's there on fire in
the chat on YouTube at KBLA fifteen eighty. We're talking
with Rick Banks. He's a law professor and the author
of his Marriage for White People. He's out of Stanford University.
It's not too late to call us at eight hundred
and nine two oh fifteen eighty. I'm Dominique di Prima
for KBLA Talk fifteen eighty. As usually, it's going down
(31:21):
in the chat room KBLA Talk fifteen eighty, and I
meant to say Happy Kobe Day to you. That was
yesterday Kobe Day in La. I hope y'all were celebrating
as I was. We're talking with Rick Banks right now.
He's the author of his Marriage for White People. And
you're right, we haven't talked for what ten years or so,
(31:42):
but it's a pleasure talking with you. The book is
Marriage for White People is an academic look at the
situation with with the marriage gap between black folks and others.
But also a sort of a personal exploration of what
is behind what's going on. Cuamel and the child says, so,
(32:04):
we're not going to talk about I'm paraphrasing because I
can't see his comment right now. We're not going to
talk about how black men just bounce and don't consider
black women and how anti blackness is a factor in
the black marriage gap. Do you do you see that
as being a factor?
Speaker 2 (32:21):
Yeah, well, here, here's a lot of places where anti
blackness comes in. Frankly that people don't focus on enough
is that, you know, Everyian Americans, we have a long
history of colorism, and you know, just that just means
that as a result of that, black, dark skinned black
women are disfavored by black men. And that's a real dynamic,
(32:44):
and you know, women have experiences for generations, and it's
something that still shapes relationships between black men and women.
One of the ironies of the situation is that non
black men are probably less uh focus on complexion than
black men are. So if you're a darker skinned black woman,
(33:07):
you might find more love basically among non black men
than you do among black men. Interesting that that's just
the reality, and that this is unfortunate. This is a
bad thing. Colorism is a part of the legacy of
racism and slavery. But as an individual, you know, you
can't change that whole legacy, but you can respond to
(33:28):
it in ways that make it more likely that you
can find happiness.
Speaker 1 (33:31):
Hopefully that shade is a mischanging. Yeah, I've seen it
and experienced it. One of my closest, closest girlfriends is real,
real chocolate and those white voice I mean, man, they
chase her like crazy. They ain't even looking at me.
So it maybe there is a different dynamic que from
la you're on the air, good morning, good money.
Speaker 3 (33:53):
And my guessess to how are you doing?
Speaker 1 (33:55):
I'm blessed your mind.
Speaker 3 (33:56):
I didn't know.
Speaker 2 (33:59):
It's quickly.
Speaker 3 (34:00):
I don't know what that this has been uh discussed
or not. My my take on this issue in the
fact that this is the promotion that had been perpetuated
by Hollywood for expect a long time, the notion that
the darker you are there, the harder it is for
the camera to uh uh uh yes, because.
Speaker 1 (34:23):
They need they need good lighting for milland again they
need good lighting, good lighting.
Speaker 3 (34:27):
Yeah, yeah, so they have perpetuated that today if you
look at all the commercials that will see eight uh
into ratio uh a couple. And this is what has
been constantly being founded into the heads of the of
our people, and so some of our people and most
(34:49):
people that comes to California once you get into the
air industry, and so what they what would they do?
They would do what the industry wants or what would
make it easy for them?
Speaker 1 (35:00):
Okay, so I'm almost out of time here. Qu what's
your bottom line? Do you have a question or a
bottom line for Rick Banks?
Speaker 3 (35:09):
Yes, the bottom line is that Hollywood is the major
problem of this inter racial marriage. Is why you see
black men or black women or moving away from our
own race into other areas because when you're here and
you wanted to pay going to that and this content
(35:31):
pounded in your head by the commercial, these other effects
or the consequences, why you see so many people moving away?
Speaker 1 (35:40):
Got it? Got it? Rick Banks? You agree you think
the Hollywood factor plays a role here?
Speaker 2 (35:46):
Well, I think we have You know, of course, images matter,
the stories that Hollywood tells matter to tell uh the
stories that are told matters. But I don't think we
should feel threatened by relationships that cross racial or other boundaries.
I think we should should welcome them. I mean, this
(36:06):
is the world we live in where it's normal and
it's a good thing to have relationships of all types
with people of other races and people from different backgrounds.
I mean, that's what we need to make our society work,
is more mixing. And there's no danger that the black
race is going to disappear, right or the African Americans
are going to disappear because of interracial marriage. So you know,
(36:31):
this is not a threat for us. It's actually an
opportunity to try to go out in the world and
form relationships with people of all races, especially in a
place like La where you have such a mix of people.
You know, why would you want to deny yourself the
opportunity to have relationships that could really help to enliven
you and to enrich your life.
Speaker 1 (36:50):
Plus many times, when you mix a black person with
somebody else, you get a person, at least in our
country that's considered black, somebody that looks, acts and functions
in our community in a way that is entirely integrated.
Speaker 2 (37:10):
Yeah, that's and that's that's a good thing. And you know, frankly,
if you look at even I mean in Hollywood. If
you think about the uh, you know people who are
are in Hollywood, the black people are in Hollywood. A
lot of these black people are actually the children the
mixed race couples. And it's not that they're not you know,
active and you know, do things that are good for
black people that they do right. They can be pro
(37:33):
black as you can imagine, even though their mother may
have been whiter than father may have been white.
Speaker 1 (37:38):
Yeah, present company included. I mean my mom was Italian.
So there you have it. We rest our case.
Speaker 2 (37:46):
Let me take that and let me take that opportunity
Dominique to really thank you. You've done such great work.
I don't know if you get as in the accolades
that you should. You've done great work in the Southland
for decades now. This is such a great program and
you have such great insights and perspective. So thank you
for doing that.
Speaker 1 (38:01):
Oh, I appreciate you. It's it's an honor and it's
great to talk with you once again. Tell us how
to track you if we can on socials or wherever
you be.
Speaker 2 (38:11):
Well, I'm not on social that much right now. I'm
the faculty director at the Stanford Center for racial justice
and we have you know, we're on the social so
probably go to that. And have a book coming out
about college in Thearolla College and American life and what
that means for African Americans and others. That'll be out
in twenty twenty six. It'll be called The Miseducation of America.
(38:33):
So I'm very excited about that and look forward to
being with you again.
Speaker 1 (38:37):
When that's yes, please come back. I'd love to thank
you so much. Tavis is back. Tavis Smiley is live
in the studio and he's got a heck of a
show for you today. You definitely don't want to miss this.
I will see you tomorrow. Kean Harold will be in Wow.
It's going to be a great show. Doctor Malina Abdullah
will be here, my colleagues. She'll be live in the studio,
(38:59):
I believe. So we gotta be mixing it up tomorrow.
Like Ma Mamma Dianda Prima used to say, history is now,
like I always say, we're making it together. Until next time.
One Love,
All right, Andy, I wouldn't call this a Black Marriage
Monday song, but thank you for reminding me that it
is Shockg's b day. Happy Solar Return, Happy heaven Lee
birthday to a real one. Uh yeah, shock G Digital
Undergrounds really kind of brain child. I mean that was
(00:24):
his brain child, Digital Underground, and he was the driving
force behind that. Definitely gone too soon, Rest in peace,
shock G. Greg was a real one, for sure. He
meant that do what you liked. That wasn't just humpty,
He meant that irl. But it is a Black Marriage Monday,
and maybe that is the secret to a healthy marriage.
(00:48):
I don't know. We're being joined by a professor of
law at the Stanford Law School, a professor at the
by Ker to See at the Stanford Graduate School of Education.
This day we're talking relationships. He's also an expert in
(01:10):
that field, is written on the field. And I call
it Black Marriage Monday because I just want to remind
us to tap in. But everybody's welcome. I want us
to remind us to tap in and make sure that
we know that we are going to be spending time
(01:31):
on this topic of relationships love marriage. So welcome back
to the show. Rick banks.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
Thank you, Dominic. It's so good to be with you,
and you're really taking me back with the humpty there.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
Yeah, So is do what you like? Is that a
Is that a formula for a happy marriage?
Speaker 2 (01:52):
That is definitely not a formula for a happy marriage.
And even more, I don't know if there's a formula
for a happy life. You know, you need to have
some times where you do what you like, but you
need to have other times where you're thinking about other
people and what they may like.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
Okay, well, your book is Marriage Just for White People?
Is kind of it's a controversial topic. I know you
did I mean a title. I know you did that
to get people talking, to get people thinking, but that
is sort of a stereotype, and I get I think
it's one of the reasons why I named this Black
(02:33):
Marriage Monday, because we talk a lot about not only
the perception that white folks are more likely to get
married and stay married, but this idea that marriage in
the African American community has been on the decline, right right, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
This is the grid. I don't know if you remember,
but more than a decade ago, when that book came
out as Marriage for White People, we did a session.
I think we did a session in the studio. Yeah,
and uh it was wonderful and you were great, and
we had a lot of great a lot of great callers.
And I think the issues are even more pressing now.
The underlying issue, Just to be clear, it's not it's
not really marriage per se. The real issue is that
(03:17):
the biggest and most important decision anyone can make in
their life, the single most important decision, is who to
partner with, most important decision in life. It will shape
your life, it will shape the generations that follow. And
it's probably a better thing to have a partner than
to not have a partner.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
So when you say who to partner with, you talking
about in marriage and business, in living together, in anything.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
I mean and no, I mean I mean in the
intimate reankly, because that's the you know, that's the foundation
of life. Right. Your business partners can change across time. Uh,
you know that all can shift. But once you decide
to partner with so one and once you have a
child with them, you will never not have a relationship
with them. They will always be connected to you.
Speaker 3 (04:07):
Right.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
The relationship will change, but you will never not have
the relationship. So the decision about who to partner with,
who to have children with, single most important decision your life,
which has you know, far reaching effects not only for
you but for your children obviously. And I think that
that African Americans need to and you know, I don't.
You know, this issue is kind of caught up in
(04:29):
the culture wars where you know, yeah, some people are
saying do what you liked, other people saying we need
the traditional family, and we really need to move beyond
that culture war struggle and just recognize that, Hey, everybody
wants to have somebody there with them, and everybody wants
to have support. Everybody wants to give support, and so
it's worthwhile thinking about how to do that in a
(04:50):
way that is life affirming for you and the other
people in your life.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
Yeah, I think that's right. I do you think we don't.
We don't realize the gravity of that decision. You know,
in the black community, we just because people, I mean,
some folks a baby by this one, a baby by
that one, or some folks are just you know, going
based on I don't know, just purely how someone looks
(05:17):
or some kind of Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
Yeah, yeah, all that's bad. Yeah, So the first first
point is that. And this is for people generally, not
just black people, but everybody needs to understand that. Again,
the most important decision you make in your life is
who you decide to partner with, right and and that's
because relationships are so central to who we are, to
what we can aspire to, to what we can achieve,
(05:40):
to our health, to everything. So you have to put
a lot of energy into relationships. You know, older I get,
the more important relationships would come. And so if you
can realize that early, that's a good thing. And and
so that's really the foundation. And I just think it's
a lot of thought, and I think the strategy for
(06:02):
success there, frankly, is not what people think. Usually people
think that the goal is to find someone who makes
them happy, and that's always always the wrong approach because
this other person is not going to make you happy.
That for sure will not work. It won't. Here's the
paradox is that the better approach to finding a good
(06:26):
partner and finding a good relationship is to actually find
someone that you want to make happy. That's the paradox, right,
You need to and that means that you value them,
you see something in them that you appreciate, You see
things in them that you want to nurture, that you
want to grow, that you want to contribute to, that
you want to be more a part of the world.
(06:47):
And if you really want to pour your soul into
someone else and hopefully they want to pour themselves into you,
that at least gives you a chance of having a
sustained long term relationship.
Speaker 1 (06:57):
Yeah. If there are some people who are just people
pleasers want to make everybody they meet.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
Happy, well that's another problem. Right, No, that's another problem.
That is that's another It can't be there has to
be something distinctive about the person that and and you know,
and that's you know, yeah, that's another problem. If you
want to make everyone happy, that's a that's a therapy
problem there, because that's not that's not conducive to well
(07:25):
being either. But you but no, really, you should want
to find somebody whose values you resonate with, whose you
know aspirations you think are good, aspirations in the world,
who have ideas about life that you think are like
good ideas, right and good, they have a good approach,
and there's something in them that like opens up your
spirit and makes you want to bolster and nurture their spirit.
Speaker 4 (07:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
So the other comment that you made that I wanted
to follow up with is this idea that we need
to move beyond the culture wars. And it's a two
side question on the one and I feel like a
lot of that stuff is very online. I read that,
you know, black men and women hate each other, and
then I go to parties and I see people hugged up,
cuddled up, living together. Mary, is it all you think
(08:12):
it's also very online?
Speaker 2 (08:14):
That's a great point. Yes, it's a great point. I
mean this is this is true not only around relationship issues.
This is true about all sorts of issues. They make
a great mistake, you know, when we think that what
happens online is real life, because you know the reality
is that the extreme voices get amplified online. Yeah, right,
and so you have people from the you know, the
(08:34):
far left and the far right. You had these people
at all these extreme views and they're fighting it out online.
The worst thing you can do is the mistake that
for people generally right, because most people are not doing that.
That's a small percentage of people who are engaged in
that sort of stuff. Most people are just living their lives,
trying to figure things out, trying to move ahead, trying
to form good relationships, trying to make progress the work,
(08:56):
trying to raise their children. They don't have time to
be made, you know, fifty posts a day?
Speaker 1 (09:02):
Yeah, hello now. And not only that, some of those
people that are making those extreme posts are in a
happy marriage where they do none of the things they
say online.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
Oh yeah, there's there's a performativity to us.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 2 (09:15):
Yeah, people are trying to do things on them. I
mean it's really you know, social media has a lot
of great aspects, but it's also very corrosive. And you're
identifying part of one of the ways in which is
corrosive is that it can kind of pull out the
worst of people, right, and it has been doing things
that they don't even believe because they want to get
(09:37):
attention and get likes and so forth. And so you know,
we all need to have a balance in our lives.
And you know, I think real relationships are usually relationships
that are in person, with people sitting across tables looking
at each other, touching each other, hugging each other. I mean,
you know, that's how we I mean, really, that's how
humans evolved was to orient to touch in physical present,
(10:01):
So you know, we don't want to forget how important
that is in our lives.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
Talking with author law professor Rick Banks, it's a black
marriage Monday. You sound like my mama. She used to say,
friends know where their friends live. She was talking about Facebook.
Friends know where their friends live. Yeah, we'll continue this
conversation relationships. How do we get their black marriage? Monday
on KBLA Talk fifteen eighty. I do appreciate you being here.
(10:30):
I always do. And I'm talking with professor Rick Banks.
You're a law professor, but you've written a book which
has become sort of a classic. And I guess I
never really asked you that. What made a law professor
write a book on black marriage? It's called His Marriage
for White People How the African American marriage decline affects everyone.
Speaker 2 (10:54):
Well, so I teach a lot of courses among his
family law, which has been one of my areas I
focused on. And uh, you know, family law is just
about all the things that happened within families and how
the lawulates them. Right, So that that kind of took
me to the to the the marriage issue. And uh,
and of course there's always autobiography behind uh projects. And uh,
(11:18):
you know, my own experience is just you know, realizing
how important family uh is because my you know, my
mother died when I was nine years old, she had cancer,
had three older sisters, my father. I was the last
of the line, as they said, My father was sixty
years old when she died. And uh, you know, it
(11:39):
was only decades later that I realized that he never
remarried in part because he had children and he wanted
to keep his focus on the on the children, uh,
in raising the children. And uh so that kind of
dis didn't planet within me the importance of family and
and how we you know, our our commitments to families
(12:00):
and to our children and and and one of the
things that I saw for this book in particular that
really bothered me that I thought was a problem, uh
was that you know a lot of times black women
felt like they had to sacrifice their own happiness basically
because they needed to be committed to sort of black
(12:22):
men both in the in the astract and you know,
also in their in their own lives. And uh you
know that led to relationships that were not the right relationships, frankly,
and uh so I wanted to let black women know that.
You know, sometimes you can when you do the best
for you, I mean, doing the best for the group
can also be doing the best for you. I mean,
(12:44):
you deserve to be happy, You deserve to have good
things in your life. You deserve to have men in
your life that that are fulfilled. You know that that
that invigorate you and enrich your life. And you shouldn't
circumscribe your choices, uh in that regard. So you know,
that was a big point in the book too.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
Yeah, so that means that might mean looking outside your
own ethnic group, right.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
Exactly. And it's just frankly, what people of other races do?
I mean, black men? I mean, I think that again,
the biggest decision that you make in your life is
who you decide to partner with, have children with. And
it's hard, for a lot of reasons in our society
right to find a good a good relationship, the person
that's right for you and to make it work. It's
really hard to do it. Why make it harder by
(13:29):
trying to limit yourself to you know, people of one race,
right or one group. And you know, most people now
are actually open to dating or marrying people from you know,
various backgrounds, and you know, black women for a long
time were the exception to that.
Speaker 1 (13:47):
I think it's still mostly true, to be honest with you,
most of my friends, most of the women that I know,
even the ones that say they're going to date outside
their race mostly or ethnic group, mostly they don't.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
Yeah. Well, I think there's things are changing now though,
I think I mean even you know, think about I mean,
think about the most prominent Black women in the United
States right now. I mean the tutor come to my mind,
being a lawyer and law professor, Kamala Harris and Satanji
Brown Jackson, right, and they both have have white husbands.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
And they've been widely disparaged for it by both black
men and women.
Speaker 2 (14:27):
I don't think they should be. I don't think they
should be disparaged at all all.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
I mean, whether they should be or not, they are.
That's my point is that it just I don't think
it's changed that much.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
Well, I think it's again, you know, I think it
might be changing on the ground. You know, you might
have a lot of stuff on social media where there's
a lot of people.
Speaker 1 (14:47):
And on the radio.
Speaker 2 (14:49):
Yeah, but we talk about people in there in their
actual lives. You know, the reality is that, you know,
we live in a society where you know, people are
in workplaces, they're in social settings where you are meeting
people at different races. And I think there are a
lot of black women, frankly right now who are realizing that, Hey,
you know, even though I might have started thinking, you know,
(15:10):
I have to be with the black guy, now I'm realizing, well,
maybe I don't have to be with a black guy.
There are a lot of other guys out there, you know.
There are you know, not only white guys, but you
have a lot of Latinos and a lot you have
Middle Eastern men. You have men from all kind of
different backgrounds, and uh, you know, sometimes I might have
(15:31):
commonality with them. And I think there are a lot
of women who are starting to realize that. And I
think that's a good thing, right, If it's something that
you know, if you can find someone you can love
and be happy with, you should do that. You should
not reject them or bypass them because of their race,
or their religion or their background, or because you're you know,
(15:54):
some of your aunties or uncles might not like it, right,
you shouldn't do that or religion.
Speaker 1 (15:59):
Really, you think because that seems like it could be
more of an issue, right if you guys have different faith.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
Oh, it could be, it could be and and you
know all and all, I mean you know again these
are you know, these are complicated decisions, and you know
there could be I mean if you are a devout
uh you know, Catholic and other person's a you know,
very devout you know, Jewish person, I mean that that
could be a conflict, right, because you need to think
about how you're going to raise the children, right, So
(16:31):
you know you need to work all those issues out.
And this is not to say that those issues are
not important, but it is to say that you shouldn't
give race this like overriding importance and make that kind
of more important than everything else. And then you know,
discount all the other aspects of compatibility. And you know,
religion is one of those aspects of compatibility too. I mean,
(16:52):
if if you know, if one person is is really
secular and the other person is really religious, no matter
what the religion is, like, that could be an issue
in a relationship and in a family. So you know
you need to think about that too. And I will say,
you know, one of the things that people can easily
under under value is the importance of having a common
(17:13):
view of how to raise children right. And that's and
it's easy to undervalue that because before you have children,
you don't think about it.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
Right.
Speaker 2 (17:20):
Once you have the children, you know, you realize that
you all might have completely different visions about what should
happened with these children, and you know that obviously can
be a source of conflict that can drive people apart.
So again, I mean this goes back to having shared values.
You need to have some shared values in visions of
life and kind of how to be in the world.
(17:40):
But if you have that, that's that's a good foundation.
And you know, having that doesn't necessarily mean that you
are of the same race or even of the same religion.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
Kids, money, and sex. I think those are the three
main things people forget to talk about before they get
married that can end up making them not stay married.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
This is true. I remember oh Man told me years ago,
this is a man I was dating his daughter. In fact,
we didn't get married. I was dating his daughter and
he told me, you know, if you and my daughter
stay together and get married, I want to let you
know that you're going to argue about two things, he said,
money and sex, and you're going to argue about them
in that order. In fact, he was correct, No, he
(18:23):
was correct. You know, people have a lot of emotions
and a lot of buried emotions about money and sex.
And you know, people have a lot of shame in
some ways about money and sex, and it's hard to
talk about both of those topics. So, you know, and again,
in relationships, it's better to be able to talk more
(18:44):
rather than less. You need to have a sense of
vulnerability and a sense of so you can be open
to each other and you can talk about things where
you might feel a tinge of shame or you might
otherwise not be inclined to share.
Speaker 1 (19:00):
You know, we started off talking about online and the
follow up question we didn't quite get to. We've got
two minutes here before news, traffic and sports, is how
do we move past that, the superficial, the comparative, because
everyone always makes their thing look perfect online. How do
we move past that to the real issues of connection?
Speaker 2 (19:21):
Yeah, well I think people, you know, people really connect, frankly,
despite what online may tell us. Not when they're talking
about how great their lives are and all their accomplishments
and so forth. People. People connect when they show their vulnerability,
right when when you share with each other the things
you worry about are the things that you that you
hope for but you're not sure what happened. When you
(19:45):
talk about disappointments, you talk about failures, and when the
other person can listen, right when you have a curiosity
about each other. So you want to understand this for
the person and they want to understand you. That's where
the connection comes from. And that's where you can see
if you if you have the same values. So you know,
I would just encourage people to try to, you know,
(20:07):
be open to sharing yourself so that you can form
that connection. Uh And as you say, you can't do
that online. This needs to have been in person, you know,
real life, when you're physically together.
Speaker 1 (20:21):
So does that mean the dating apps are out?
Speaker 2 (20:25):
Dating apps can be very helpful, you know they can.
They can help you and you know some more than others,
but you know they can help you sift through this
huge number of people and a lot of people. I'm
sure we all know a lot of people who found
good partners on dating apps. Yep. Yeah, But the keys
that you know, the app is kind of a way
(20:46):
to sift through a lot of people. But then the
real work begins once you actually have the person in
front of you, right, and now you have to see
if this is a has the makings of a real relationship,
and you know it and it can be, you know,
very rewarding. You know to have a good relationship, but
(21:07):
you know it also takes time and it takes energy,
and you can't always do what you like.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
But that's like do what you like. Shock. Sorry. I
will continue our conversation with Rick Banks after News, Traffic
and Sports on KBLA Talk fifteen eighty. Ay BLA Talk
fifteen eighty We're talking with law professor Rick Banks on
a Black marriage Monday. His book is Marriage for White
People put things in stark relief from an academic standpoint
(21:36):
but also a personal outlook based on conversations with a
whole bunch of people. And when we talk about this
marriage gap that black people, not just black women, Black
people are less likely to get married. Black women less
likely than anybody I believe to actually be married over
(21:58):
the course of our lifetime. It's not just because we're cursed,
just because we're mad at bad at marriage. Because we're
all hoes I mean there's like socioeconomic historical reasons for
this too, right.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
Yeah, the economic factors loom large, right. I mean one
of the you know, a big, big issue is that
it you know, it used to be the case that
you know, people would get married when they were young
and you know, you didn't have any money, you didn't
have much stability, but then you would kind of build
it over time. And now that's kind of shifted so
that people expect economic stability at the start of a marriage.
(22:36):
That's kind of a requirement to get married. Kind of
this old saying, uh no, no, no romance without finance.
Right right now, people's kind of no, no marriage without finance.
And you know, African Americans are despite advances, I mean,
we are disproportionately economically disadvantaged right in terms of income,
(23:01):
in terms of wealth, in terms of job security, and
all of that makes it hard to maintain relationships because
you know, as we mentioned earlier, one of the main
things you will fight about will be money, and that
that tears a lot of relationships apart. Uh, you know,
but the paradox is that or the irony maybe is
that you know, not having a strong financial foundation makes
(23:24):
it hard to get married and stay married and maintain
a partnership. But it's also true that if you can
maintain that partnership and work together, that can provide a
financial foundation, right, so you can move forward.
Speaker 1 (23:38):
Right? That is ironic? Yeah, black women earth? Is that
still true that black women are three times as likely
as white women to never marry.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
Well, it depends on how you how you calculate it.
It's hard to you know, it's hard and it's hard
to predict the future. But yes, it has been the
case that that you know, black women are uniquely unlikely
to marry or to stay married. But it's also and
it's also true that you know, marriage rates have been
declining in society generally. Uh, and you know those are
(24:09):
issues and the and the broader issue. Just to be
clear that you know, we don't want to you don't
even get fixated on on marriage. Really the issues really
just partnerships, right, And you know, if you it used
to be the case that if people were in a partnership,
they would get married. Now you know, sometimes you can
have people who are actually in a committed partnership for
a long time and they don't ever get married exactly.
(24:35):
That's okay too. It's but and the and you know,
my worry with African Americans is that, you know, African
Americans are in fact less likely to be partnered in
stable relationships than other groups. And that's especially true for
black women, and that that is an issue, right, that's
(24:55):
that's not it's not generally what those people want, frankly.
And it's not you know, not moving the race forward either, frankly.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
And so it's but it's not all about you know,
it's not all about love and or social interactions. Some
of it is economics. And what about the historical impact
of the fact that we had, you know, hundreds of
years where we were being separated by the system, you know,
(25:22):
because we were actually property.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
Yeah, no, it's true. I mean black people. This is
you know, one of the horrific aspects of slavery was
was really the you know, destruction of the black family
and the extent to which you know, you had white men,
you know, with power who exercised dominion over black people's
most you know, intimate lives. And you know, that's one
of the horrific aspects of slavery. One of the ironies, though,
(25:48):
is that you know, if you look through the nineteen forties, fifties, sixties,
African Americans were as likely to be married then as
white people. You know, there wasn't a merit gap during
that era. The relationship or the marriage gap really developed
in the seventies, eighties and nineties when you had the
(26:10):
demise of a lot of the jobs in which black
men depended, you know, all the blue collar jobs, industrial jobs.
You know, as the economy changed, black people really got
a bad deal and that and black men got a
bad deal in particular, and then that affected black women.
Speaker 1 (26:26):
Wow, that's fascinating. So the demise of those jobs, and
then I would imagine the flooding over our community with
first heroine and then crack did not help either.
Speaker 2 (26:39):
That did not help, right, This is I mean, it's yeah,
I mean yeah. You can think of the of the
status of the relationships in part as a reflection of
how healthy is the community, right, I mean, if people
are doing well, and then they're able to form relationships,
they're able to form families, they're able to stay together.
But when people are not doing well, right, when they're
(27:01):
when you have drug problems and all that that breeds.
When you people don't have jobs, they don't have stable employment.
That just just undermines the family and undermines relationships. And uh,
you know, we have been you know, the victims in
a sense of these broad macroeconomic changes which have made
it it made it very difficult for people to form families.
Speaker 1 (27:25):
Let's go to Allegria. Calling us from Los Angeles. Good morning,
You're on the air with Rick Banks.
Speaker 4 (27:29):
Welcome, Good morning, Geminique, and good morning U Rick Banks.
I'm calling because I in the subject of interracial dating
in Los Angeles. It seems like that's very little of
a problem. I see so many interracial relationships these to day.
Almost every new baby is half black that I see.
(27:52):
And I honestly when I see a couple, like I
met a beautiful couple last night and he introduces beautiful
brown woman, Oh it's my wife, and I want to
say congratulations, like thank you for choosing black and black Americans,
you know, I do, really, I think everybody deserves loves
and relationships, and I think there's so many non melanated,
you know, alibaster men coming up on beautiful black women,
(28:15):
which you know, great for them, you know, great for everybody. Sure,
but I'm really hoping that black Americans begin choosing each
other more, especially here in Los Angeles, you know, choosing
each other more, and we have more African descendant you know,
brown beautiful, hanky haired babies.
Speaker 1 (28:34):
I agree, or you're black.
Speaker 4 (28:37):
Half my dad, I'm black. In Mexicans, it's Corey Dominique.
Speaker 1 (28:43):
I call that. I call that, Yeah, I call that
the California blend Black Sican.
Speaker 2 (28:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (28:49):
Yeah, yeah, exactly totally.
Speaker 4 (28:52):
Which is which is it's fine, But in one generation
it can be gone. You could be like, you know,
you can be half black and then you you procreate
with somebody else and you kids are rarely black people.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
Yeah my homes.
Speaker 2 (29:05):
Yeah, so let me just let me let me just
kind of like one there or or thanks for that comment.
That's a waterful comic. Just just what what Actually two
points here. One one that of course it's a good
thing hate for black people to choose black people. I mean,
my my wife is African American. We grew up together
in Cleveland, Uh, in a neighborhood that was all black,
(29:27):
so you know, there weren't the white people around even
and uh, and that's a good thing, right, So I'm
not saying that that's not something that is a positive,
but it's also a positive for people just to find
people who love them and they can love whatever the race,
and and and and and the callers right on that
you know these you know, interracial relationships are more common
(29:49):
in places like California because they're great the great regional variation,
and California and registracial relationships are high because a lot
of people come to California from somewhere else, and when
you leave home, you're more likely to do what it
is you want to do, rather than doing what your
parents or your cousins or your aunties and uncles want
(30:10):
you to do, which you know might have happened had
you stayed in the place where you were born. And
one of the big, the big pressures to only marry
within the group comes from your your family. Right, And
so for all sorts of relationships, we see people crossing
boundaries once they move to a new place, right, you
(30:32):
can then it might be racial boundaries, religious boundaries, it
might be sexual orientation. Right, there're all sorts of boundaries
that people can cross when they come to California and
they're free to do what they want, rather than when
they're living up under their family and they feel the
pressures of the family to try to do what the
family wants them to do.
Speaker 1 (30:51):
Yeah, great points. Thank you for the call. Did you
want to say anything else?
Speaker 4 (30:56):
No, thank you guys that conversation.
Speaker 1 (30:58):
Yeah, great points. And they it's there on fire in
the chat on YouTube at KBLA fifteen eighty. We're talking
with Rick Banks. He's a law professor and the author
of his Marriage for White People. He's out of Stanford University.
It's not too late to call us at eight hundred
and nine two oh fifteen eighty. I'm Dominique di Prima
for KBLA Talk fifteen eighty. As usually, it's going down
(31:21):
in the chat room KBLA Talk fifteen eighty, and I
meant to say Happy Kobe Day to you. That was
yesterday Kobe Day in La. I hope y'all were celebrating
as I was. We're talking with Rick Banks right now.
He's the author of his Marriage for White People. And
you're right, we haven't talked for what ten years or so,
(31:42):
but it's a pleasure talking with you. The book is
Marriage for White People is an academic look at the
situation with with the marriage gap between black folks and others.
But also a sort of a personal exploration of what
is behind what's going on. Cuamel and the child says, so,
(32:04):
we're not going to talk about I'm paraphrasing because I
can't see his comment right now. We're not going to
talk about how black men just bounce and don't consider
black women and how anti blackness is a factor in
the black marriage gap. Do you do you see that
as being a factor?
Speaker 2 (32:21):
Yeah, well, here, here's a lot of places where anti
blackness comes in. Frankly that people don't focus on enough
is that, you know, Everyian Americans, we have a long
history of colorism, and you know, just that just means
that as a result of that, black, dark skinned black
women are disfavored by black men. And that's a real dynamic,
(32:44):
and you know, women have experiences for generations, and it's
something that still shapes relationships between black men and women.
One of the ironies of the situation is that non
black men are probably less uh focus on complexion than
black men are. So if you're a darker skinned black woman,
(33:07):
you might find more love basically among non black men
than you do among black men. Interesting that that's just
the reality, and that this is unfortunate. This is a
bad thing. Colorism is a part of the legacy of
racism and slavery. But as an individual, you know, you
can't change that whole legacy, but you can respond to
(33:28):
it in ways that make it more likely that you
can find happiness.
Speaker 1 (33:31):
Hopefully that shade is a mischanging. Yeah, I've seen it
and experienced it. One of my closest, closest girlfriends is real,
real chocolate and those white voice I mean, man, they
chase her like crazy. They ain't even looking at me.
So it maybe there is a different dynamic que from
la you're on the air, good morning, good money.
Speaker 3 (33:53):
And my guessess to how are you doing?
Speaker 1 (33:55):
I'm blessed your mind.
Speaker 3 (33:56):
I didn't know.
Speaker 2 (33:59):
It's quickly.
Speaker 3 (34:00):
I don't know what that this has been uh discussed
or not. My my take on this issue in the
fact that this is the promotion that had been perpetuated
by Hollywood for expect a long time, the notion that
the darker you are there, the harder it is for
the camera to uh uh uh yes, because.
Speaker 1 (34:23):
They need they need good lighting for milland again they
need good lighting, good lighting.
Speaker 3 (34:27):
Yeah, yeah, so they have perpetuated that today if you
look at all the commercials that will see eight uh
into ratio uh a couple. And this is what has
been constantly being founded into the heads of the of
our people, and so some of our people and most
(34:49):
people that comes to California once you get into the
air industry, and so what they what would they do?
They would do what the industry wants or what would
make it easy for them?
Speaker 1 (35:00):
Okay, so I'm almost out of time here. Qu what's
your bottom line? Do you have a question or a
bottom line for Rick Banks?
Speaker 3 (35:09):
Yes, the bottom line is that Hollywood is the major
problem of this inter racial marriage. Is why you see
black men or black women or moving away from our
own race into other areas because when you're here and
you wanted to pay going to that and this content
(35:31):
pounded in your head by the commercial, these other effects
or the consequences, why you see so many people moving away?
Speaker 1 (35:40):
Got it? Got it? Rick Banks? You agree you think
the Hollywood factor plays a role here?
Speaker 2 (35:46):
Well, I think we have You know, of course, images matter,
the stories that Hollywood tells matter to tell uh the
stories that are told matters. But I don't think we
should feel threatened by relationships that cross racial or other boundaries.
I think we should should welcome them. I mean, this
(36:06):
is the world we live in where it's normal and
it's a good thing to have relationships of all types
with people of other races and people from different backgrounds.
I mean, that's what we need to make our society work,
is more mixing. And there's no danger that the black
race is going to disappear, right or the African Americans
are going to disappear because of interracial marriage. So you know,
(36:31):
this is not a threat for us. It's actually an
opportunity to try to go out in the world and
form relationships with people of all races, especially in a
place like La where you have such a mix of people.
You know, why would you want to deny yourself the
opportunity to have relationships that could really help to enliven
you and to enrich your life.
Speaker 1 (36:50):
Plus many times, when you mix a black person with
somebody else, you get a person, at least in our
country that's considered black, somebody that looks, acts and functions
in our community in a way that is entirely integrated.
Speaker 2 (37:10):
Yeah, that's and that's that's a good thing. And you know, frankly,
if you look at even I mean in Hollywood. If
you think about the uh, you know people who are
are in Hollywood, the black people are in Hollywood. A
lot of these black people are actually the children the
mixed race couples. And it's not that they're not you know,
active and you know, do things that are good for
black people that they do right. They can be pro
(37:33):
black as you can imagine, even though their mother may
have been whiter than father may have been white.
Speaker 1 (37:38):
Yeah, present company included. I mean my mom was Italian.
So there you have it. We rest our case.
Speaker 2 (37:46):
Let me take that and let me take that opportunity
Dominique to really thank you. You've done such great work.
I don't know if you get as in the accolades
that you should. You've done great work in the Southland
for decades now. This is such a great program and
you have such great insights and perspective. So thank you
for doing that.
Speaker 1 (38:01):
Oh, I appreciate you. It's it's an honor and it's
great to talk with you once again. Tell us how
to track you if we can on socials or wherever
you be.
Speaker 2 (38:11):
Well, I'm not on social that much right now. I'm
the faculty director at the Stanford Center for racial justice
and we have you know, we're on the social so
probably go to that. And have a book coming out
about college in Thearolla College and American life and what
that means for African Americans and others. That'll be out
in twenty twenty six. It'll be called The Miseducation of America.
(38:33):
So I'm very excited about that and look forward to
being with you again.
Speaker 1 (38:37):
When that's yes, please come back. I'd love to thank
you so much. Tavis is back. Tavis Smiley is live
in the studio and he's got a heck of a
show for you today. You definitely don't want to miss this.
I will see you tomorrow. Kean Harold will be in Wow.
It's going to be a great show. Doctor Malina Abdullah
will be here, my colleagues. She'll be live in the studio,
(38:59):
I believe. So we gotta be mixing it up tomorrow.
Like Ma Mamma Dianda Prima used to say, history is now,
like I always say, we're making it together. Until next time.
One Love,
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