December 21, 2025 • 44 mins
In this edition of Freedmen Fridays we hear from Baltimore reparations activist Lawrence Grandpre, director of research for the think tank Leaders of a Beautiful Struggle. Mr. Grandpre outlines the history of the reparations bill, how they overcame Governor Wes Moore's veto and what is next for the state of Maryland Reparation Commission.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Fifteen eighty, it is time for Friedman Friday. We do
this the second hour of every single Friday on this
radio station, dedicate the time to reparations. We aim to
have a comprehensive conversation all walks of life, all philosophies, viewpoints,
geographical regions and mindsets. We want to be part of
(00:23):
making sure we all know what the heck is going
on and that we can therefore become part of the momentum,
part of the solution, part of the work that is
needed to get reparations across the Finnish line, city by city,
state by state, county by county, and eventually nationally and internationally,
hopefully not that eventually. I'm being joined now by a
(00:46):
reparations activist out of Baltimore, Maryland. He is He is
someone who's been working on this particular issue that's in
the news for quite some time, ever since the governor
vetoed the Reparations Commission, and actually before that as well.
(01:09):
He is part of an organization called Leaders of a
Beautiful Struggle. He's a researcher and an activist who is
also a podcaster. He's got over seventy podcast podcast under
his belt. He's got fifteen years of research and policy
(01:30):
advocacy experience working with community organizations and researchers to use
that work to drive social change towards community self determination.
Lawrence grand Prix.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
Welcome, Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
Yeah, so tell me the story of what happened from
your perspective. I'm pretty sure you're familiar with California. We've
had two reparations legislative fails. We had one where our
legislative black caucus failed to bring the votes the bills
to the floor, and then the one that they did
get through the governor veto. This year, we have the
(02:06):
governor veto everything except a measure that many consider a
stalling tactic. Tell me the story of what happened in
Maryland as you see it.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Well, again, thank you for having me. So a few
things to set context for your audience. Maryland has the
largest black caucus in its state legislature in our state
capital of Annapolis, of any state in the country. So
I believe it's like over thirty of the lawmakers, almost
a third in the state was almost a third the
population of the state of Maryland is black. So reparations
(02:42):
have been something that people have been talking about for
a while, and we actually came to a meeting with
some of the folks from the governor's team, and this
would have been in twenty twenty four, so before the
twenty twenty five legislative session started, we've passed all of
our laws in one hundred days in the state from
January to April, a mad dash. But before them, we
(03:03):
came not with a study bill. We came with the
natural plans for taxation and to progress a taxation of
people with wealth and certain closing of bluepholes that actually
get money for reparations, and actually put that in the
bill in twenty twenty five. The governor's team said they
didn't think that was the approach they wanted to take,
so we actually pivoted as a compromise to a study bill.
(03:26):
Study bill was never our intent, but there were folks
in the Black Caucus who stated they were getting interest
from people in their districts to do a study bill,
so we pivoted. After again the governor's team said they
were not interested in the Comprehensive Operations Funding bill to
the study bill, and again the governor said they weren't
a fan of the reparations policy if we framed it.
(03:46):
They never say explicitly. They were totally against the study
bill until the bill was basically right on the finish line.
In March, we started to hear rumors that the government's
team were calling people saying there was a public story
that selects a Truth and Reconciliation commission instead, and we're like,
truth acciliation is not reparation. You know, we come from
(04:06):
a lineage as a Pan African organization where some of
our people have critique of truth and reconciliation in South
Africa and how it was used in some ways to
also scate material land reparations in South Africa. So that
was not as much as an interest. It's not the
same of reparations, right. So we started to hear rumors
after they were trying to kill the bill, and then
they said the bill may be dead, and then we
(04:29):
said we heard over just going to pass it and
if in what happens happened, not really thinking he was
going to betow it, but the governor did. The bill
did pass in twenty twenty five in margin people and
then the government vetoed in April. So in the state
of Maryland, you can override a veto if you have
(04:49):
a three fifths of the legislature agreed to override the veto,
and so that bill passed with more than three fifths,
a big enough margin to over ride the veto. But
governor just have a lot of power. This is a
Democrat majority state, Democrat veto proof majorities, Democratic stronghold, and
a powerful democratic governor can can put pressure on people
to stick with them and go with their opinion on
(05:13):
the veto over us. So we heard rumors about the
governor leaning on folks. The governor announced he was thinking
of supporting people in the primary challenges in the Democratic primary,
or people that the governor thought really represented his agenda.
And one can lead between the lines in terms of
potentially targeting people who he saw is pushing policies that
he didn't agree with so made him look bad. So
(05:34):
there's a lot of pressure on the Black cauc just
to stand firm, and to that credit, just this week,
the Black Caucus did stand firm. We got vetol. We
got over sixty percent of overwright majorities in the House
and Senate. So as of tuesday, in a special session
to the end. This is December, not January. This is
a special session because our Speaker of the House actually
stepped down to be a speaker, so they had to
(05:56):
come into session. And by law, whenever you come back
into session, you have to make up all the beta overrides.
They took up all the veta overrides. One is too
much of reparations bills. So it's official Maryland will have
a reparations Commission to study not just the harms of slavery,
but concrete plans for material redress for those prms.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
In a statement, now you see this as a victory.
I mean, the reason I'm asking is because you started
out you said, you started out asking for a comprehensive
taxation and funding bill that would actually start moving money
into reparations, and you compromise with the study bill, and
(06:34):
then that was vetoed, and now the veto was overridden.
Speaker 2 (06:37):
Is that a victory, I believe? So, I believe is
an example of the Black Caucus standing firm against pressure.
And not all study bills are the stained. So the
governor has certain arguments he's used, yes to explain his details.
Some of them I think makes sense from the outside
looking in. So one of his arguments is that the
study is what you do when you don't really want
(06:58):
to act, We don't need to study. Studies are often
the stall tactic. Let's just act. So again, I think
that the fact that his team was not interested in
a comprehensive funding taxation bill shows the action thing. Maybe
he wasn't an interesting acting, but to take his study
from seriously, this study is not just designed to be
(07:19):
stingly put into the public, have a press conference and
put in a draw. It's specifically designed to look at
mechanisms of repairing the harm that can do things like
stand up to you know, the constitutional attacks on race
based policies. There's so much in terms of how you
actually pay for reparations that people just kind of stay,
we'll figure it out later. Well, no, we want to
(07:40):
figure it out now. And we have some ideas about
how to fund reparations built in Mayland. But to get
those funding mechanisms across the finish line, people and lawmakers
have legitimate questions and you need research to answer those questions.
So if the Gunns, for example, we're thinking about pushing
a proposal to make people like John Hopkins can very
evoyative of our community be a henry at lacks of
(08:02):
seals or John Hopkins owned slaves, so they claimed he
didn't he got money from the railroad to being no
railroad which used slaves labor during the Civil War. But
the specifics on those things is stuff we need to
have clarity on to make the case. They're feeling like
Hopkins owes, how much do they owe? How much should
they pay? These are all questions we can answer for
(08:23):
study not just for the sake of studying good but
to push concrete repairtive policies that can actually move money
and make these policies stand up to public criticism and
constitutional scrutiny. So I think, again, not all studies are
the same. This study uniquely, I think it's very important,
and I think it's uniquely important to show black folks
that we can demand the time and space to study
(08:45):
not just for our oppression, but solutions to our oppression.
So I think it is a winn.
Speaker 1 (08:50):
Yeah, And what I mean you said the governor was
talking about or you know, dropping hints that there might
be primary challenges to some of these lawmakers if they
supported this and doing what governors do. Governors have a
lot of power, especially when it comes to lawmakers. Legislators
because they have to sign anything that they create into
(09:11):
law or not sign it. But I know you guys
were doing some counter law being and counter organizing. What
kinds of stuff did you do? And I'm asking for
a friend because you know, here in California there was
so much disappointment about our governor's vetos two years in
a row around reparations.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
So one of the things, again, we're not a nonprofit,
so we are a thinking that operates from explicitly Black nationalists,
Tennis and nationalist framework. And part of the reason we
can do that is that we have a business model
that includes people that get with money every month, but
we do feat of service research, it insalting gags. We
don't get money from large foundations, and we can be
directly engaged in the political space that way allow of
(09:55):
nonprofits legually can't. So we spend a lot of time
going to Annapolis and we're specifically to start Black Caucus,
which when we started doing that work over ten years ago,
a lot of people said, you know, their reactionary, they're conservatives,
they don't work together, they don't have power. But over
the past ten years, the Black Caucuss has really part
of that's national shifts, the party democratic play shifts, and
(10:16):
left the part of making an intentional effort to engage
and organize them around the variety of issues, be it
funding for gras groups, organizations to do bounce or mentions,
be it allown issues like reparations, be it police reform.
To really give them like we're a think tanks that
we do what same thanks do. We help provide research,
we do testimony, to give them bills to sort show
(10:37):
them like, you can actually do this work, and we'll
hold you accountable if you don't. Like we'll go into
your district and we'll talk to church groups and we'll
talk to community groups when you do poorly, but we
will also talk positively about you when you do well.
And so, because we can be directly politically and we
go to black civil society, church groups, community groups, groups
that are already organized in the black community that already
(10:57):
have political engagements that tells them what the law of
make is doing in the state capital, which oftentimes can
be so hidden. We've been able to help organize a
Black caucus which hasicially been unorganized and really of rougher
stamps for leadership. So I think them standing up to
leadership and the governor in this moment. I think it's
the culination of a decade of work on our part
and the part of a lot of our folks that
we work with, especially like police accountability advocates, people of
(11:21):
mothers of murderous sons and daughters, you know, just pushing
the Black Caucus to sink independently, because if the Black
caucus in this state at least Maryland stood up, I mean,
they can basically run the state legislature, but they oftentimes
act like their hands are tied. They can't act, they
can't move. So I think that different intentional effort to
create a grassroots movement to really demand accountability from the
(11:44):
Black caucus, and that's really what's critical to our I've
think success here in Maryland, and I think in general,
the progressive CAUCUSUS. There are other groups of people who
traditionally have been lequal my reparations, like a live of
our progressive leftist folks. You know, we hear room that
they see a reparation of kind of distraction and things
(12:04):
like that. So we've worked a retally hard to engage
our progressive left it allies as well to say this
isn't about identity politics. This isn't about deflecting from matorial distribution.
This is that's not the distribution. What is patting Hopkins
and we distributing to have money other than res an
economical distribution I mean, And it's also a debt.
Speaker 1 (12:23):
I mean. And it's also a debt to be fair,
which is you know, you can call it a distraction
easily if it's not owed to you. The real Friday
Jones is in our chat. She says, I'll be reading
the Maryland legislation to form an opinion on it. We
must also ask what role the DNC played and how
Maryland moved with pressuring legislators. We can look at that
when we come forward on KBLA talk fifteen eighty talking
(12:46):
with Lawrence grand Prix. He's the director of research for
Leaders of a Beautiful Struggle I think tank, not a nonprofit,
but they've been organizing around reparations and looking at this
historic veto override it happened overriding the governor's veto of
this reparation study. Bill Friday Jones, who's actually aka Kansum
(13:09):
Mohammada Reparations Advisory Commissioner here in the city of Los Angeles,
where we're broadcasting from. She's asking about the role of
the DNC and pressuring lawmakers there and sort of putting
their fingers on the scale around reparations for the city,
for the state of Maryland.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
Yeah, so I don't know about the DNC specifically, but
I'll talk about some of the larger dynamics at play now.
The governor has continuously said he's not running for president. However,
right after the veto happened, he was in South Carolina,
which was one of the key primary states in the
previous Democratic primary in twenty twenty, giving a speech with
(13:55):
you know, Jim Clive and fish Rye. This is someone who,
I think it's fair to say objectively, is moving in
the way to decisions themselves to keep open the window
to run for president. There's a feeling amongst many that
those reparations was seen as something you could gesture to
in twenty twenty when a lot of the primary folks
in the Democratic primary for president had a plan. Most
(14:16):
of those plans were just funding for nonprofits and fort
of more traditional Democratic policies called reparations. They weren't truly
from the Pan African Black nationalists like black sovereignty perspective reparations,
they were just funding King nonprofits. So a true reperations approach,
I don't know it's genuinely popular in the DMC crowd,
And certainly if you're trying to run in the moderate
(14:37):
lane of a presidential election in the Democratic primary, there's
a feeling that supporting reparations would hurt you, especially if
you were trying to be a moderate in the Democratic primary.
So in the world where Wes Moore is a military guy,
Wesmore calls himselves, you know, sort of a pragmatic capitalist,
you know, but with the heart he's seeing as more
of a moderate. So there's a feeling that if he
(14:59):
were to con so they're wunning for president this reparation
supposed well, if he would have supported it, some people
feel he may think it might hurt him, which may
explain the vitail right. So in the world with as
a backlash to the quote unquote wokeness of reparations to
seeing as part of that sort of woke policy, that's
the feeling that some National Democratic Party folks may be influencing,
(15:20):
or least the national politics is influenced. In the Veto decision,
which is loud. We thought it was imposed to get
to override.
Speaker 1 (15:27):
Well, you know, we can see this opinion piece in
the Washington Post supporting the governor. It kind of feels
like the fruit him reaping the fruit that he sowed
by that veto, because they're saying that the editorial board,
and this was in Yesterday's Washington Post says Wes Moore
(15:49):
is right about reparations. But to me, it's pretty okay
from my perspective, flimsay, I love to hear your reaction
because they say, First of all, they're saying, because the
Democratic supermajorities in the state legislature overrode his veto, unseeming
unseemly and illogical arguments about reparations will once again be
(16:11):
litigated in public. That's their first argument, like, oh, we don't.
Their first point is he was right. We don't want
all these illogical arguments to be made in public. And
then they go on to argue that Maryland has white
residents that aren't rich, and so why should they be
on the hook for sending reparations to say Prince George County,
(16:35):
where black residents are doing well, you know, have some wealth.
I think That is the most one of the worst
arguments I've ever heard of. I can't believe the Washington
Post printed that. So what you're saying is that if
you owe us a debt but we're doing all right
without it, you don't have to pay it.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
Yeah, the Washington Post if not only owned by just Bevo's,
you know, multi billionaire owner Amazon, they've explicitly stated that
they want our out these to only support pro capitalist
physicians after Trump one in twenty twenty four. Right, So
we can understand the instances they have, But I think
that argument reflects a pretty common perspective on operations. It
(17:19):
only can reflect stealing or taking property from people that
cannot be have a i e. White people and giving
it to black people. This is the idea that like
a black person's coming to take your help from you
and give it to a black person. Right, if you're white,
this is ridiculous, Right, This is a caricature. And that's
what people do because of the anxiety of you know,
slavery volts. You know, Maryland was right next to Harper's ferry,
(17:41):
So you got John Brown, you got Nat Turner. That's
there's a specific anxiety in Maryland around black people having
forceful advocacy to talk about plavsy. Because we were a
border state, we were not confederacy, you cannot succeed and
we did not have reconstruction here. So Maryland desperately wants
suffer it that it has slavery. We phrase Harriet Tubman,
(18:03):
we phrased Frederick Beckliss, but hacked to flee Maryland in
order to do their advocacy. Now, Maryland is south of
the Nason Dixon line. It is the south, but because
of the Northeast Corridor illusion, Maryland continuously try to think
itself out of the history of slavery. So just to
kind of wrap up, I think for us, we have
(18:24):
done other things around reparations. So we actually wrote the
part of Maryland's bills that reinvested tax revenue from legal
Candida sales makes into communities impacted by the War on drugs.
So that's already existing War on drugs commissions that control
millions of bottles of revenue throughout the state of Maryland
to do reparations for the War on drugs, and that
(18:44):
I think if an example of attack of reparations policy.
We want to scale up with this commission support so
that's going to look at investments like to media based
silence prevention, cooperative housing, housing outside of the market, you know,
not just sort of nonprofit grant programs, besting in cooperative business,
wealth building things that can build people's cultural and political
(19:05):
ability to build their society up. And that's what reparations
is for us. You know, a lot of people are
focused on cash payments. We're not exclusive of believing some
cash payments might be part of replations planning, but the
core part of US as a pan apsal organization is
building community accountable, community controlled community institutions to meet the
(19:26):
needs of people to sustain themselves, protect themselves, and advance
themselves civilizationally, that's the goal of operations. And even in
places where people have like some black home ownership, that's
what was hollowed out. That's what has been systemically attacked
throughout our history, not just because of slavery, but because
of Jim Crow, because of the War on drugs, because
(19:46):
of the nonprofit industrial complex as well as the policing
industrial complex. So it's building up those community institutions. That's
what we need in PG County, That's what we mean
in Baltimore City and that's why I believe wean of
operations commissions.
Speaker 1 (19:59):
So are you you're not saying you guys would be
against individual payments or checks?
Speaker 2 (20:04):
Are you not against it? I'll think for us, for
our organization, where we have a degree of expertise and
focus is giving public dollars to community institutions. So be it.
You know, the grand mother in the community that does
youth programming that doesn't have a nonprofit station and doesn't
know how to write a grant, right or it's been
(20:24):
denied grants systemically from racist foundations. Right, Like we have
institutions here in Baltimore, like the Baltimore State's Children and
Youth Signs that the built after the Baltimore Uprising in
twenty fifteen to repair the hollowing guy the community institutions
because people like that have not refunded for decades in
this town. Right So, I think it's looking at things
(20:46):
like that because if we give operations, we need community
institutions for people to invest those dollars. And if we
give cash donations, where's the black businesses that can keep
the dollar in the black neighborhood. Where are the black
institutions that we can invest in so that money just
doesn't go to private schools or go to rent, or
go to the Starbucks or Walmart, like, we need to
have the community institution that considered alongside any infusion of
(21:09):
cash into the black community. So I think for us,
it's that both and approach that we feel is really important.
We know that our particular expertise is in the community
institution building perspective. So I think the Reparations Commission is
very clear on studying and figuring out what is the
specific land that was taken. Like Maryland has Participate Bay.
There were black oyster people and black water people that
(21:31):
were literally like limited and kicked out of the state
because they were getting wealthy working on the water that
was Bablock had the largest population of black freed people
in America pre Civil War. Like what if the mechanisms
of racial terror that got down land taken. I mean,
we can invent to the red lining in Baltimore City,
Like what if the mechanisms of land staffs and blockbusting
(21:53):
that forced people to buy homes that higher rates. They
are all these historical places where investments and redress economically
may make sense. We want to figure out how to
do it. Effectively, how to do it constitutionally, but on
top of that, we need institutions that can serve to
build long term, sustainable political power and meet our needs
(22:13):
beyond the line.
Speaker 1 (22:14):
Diphany checking Fahima called from DC and made a passionate
argument about why another study wasn't needed. We'll address that
and more when we come forward. We've got news, traffic
and sports right here. Then more with Lawrence grand Prix,
director of research for Leaders of a Beautiful Struggle out
of Baltimore, Maryland, in the wake of the Governor's veto
(22:38):
of the Reparations Commission being overridden and now that commission
will be seated, all that straight ahead on KBLA talk
fifteen eighty Yes, indeed, it is Friedman Friday, one of
the legislators there in the state of Maryland, quoted as
saying that in this time of attacks on diversity, equity
and inclusion, attacks on affirmative action, the mission becomes the
(23:01):
Maryland Commission, and the overriding of the Governor's veto becomes
even more important. The Mayor of Chicago, Brandon Johnson, signing
an executive order Monday to create a task force there
focused on reparations. This is continued momentum, I would say,
in the face of blistering opposition from the federal government
(23:24):
and an environment on the national scene that seems to
be pretty hostile towards anything that helps black people. Is
that part of why this is important? How how much
of a role does that play in your in your view?
Speaker 2 (23:43):
I think that's part of it. I think for us,
the goal is not to be reactive, to be proactive.
So for us, you know, we we're Democratic Party strong hold.
The last time we had an ambitious, potential Democratic UH
president come out of Merlin with Martin O'Malley, and he
initiated a regime of over seven hundred thousand the illegal
(24:05):
arrest in Baltimore City. So those on the Democrats right,
So part of this is like be very explicit to
hold folks accountable, folks who are claiming to represent a
liberatory approach for our folks. We need to have a
standard to actually have our people have a north starf
what liberation acts actually looks like. For example, one of
(24:27):
the things the Governor's tiles us his his version of
reparative policy is this thing called the Enough Act, which
targets historically Reid lined communities for competitive grant funding ten
million dollars a year at most higher. The value of
a study is just to explain to folks that ten
million dollars a year is so woefully inadequate when you
understand the scale of the attacks upon our people, and
(24:51):
he can do fancy press conferences or Democrats can do
big community events and people are crying and dancing and
doing whatever, off just ten million dollars a year grant cycle.
But to show people not only the level of violence
on them to our people, the scale up the stuff,
but it shows them a concrete plan for how we're
actually going to get to repair. Because I think most
people it's like, yeah, the study is going to say
(25:13):
the older billion trillion dollars, that's never going to happen,
So what's the point. I think for us, it goes
to be very explicit because moderate Democrats are going to
make legitimate arguments that say anything we do is going
to be attacked in the courts. So this study is
to show people, here's how we're going to defeat the
court's attacks. And part of the value of that is
(25:33):
to deflate the talking points from moderate Democrats who's like, yeah,
it's a cut love places in theory, but we can't
do it this way because it's going to get overtimed.
It's like, no, that's not true, that's a talking point.
You used to do nothing, And the study has the
value of getting time and research in specifics to undermine
those moderate democratic arguments to push local democrats to the
(25:55):
state level to pass policies that, if we allow them to,
will be the smithed as impossible poleyanda and a constitutional
So I think that's really the value of the study
is to push back against out of a Democrat saying
a supportition theory, but that's nothing we can do, or
the things that we're doing within the current political arrangement
are sufficient and basically art reparations if the under staying
(26:17):
the goal is not just to fund people between that's
in their self determination and capacity that govern themselves. That's
very different than the grand program. That's very different than
most of the stuff that was held up in twenty
twenty eth oparations.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
The conversation that I referenced with Fahima out of DC,
who's a long time I think reparationists. I know she is.
Actually she says that there's already a study the Maryland
Slave Legacy Project, that that is just repetitive, and maybe
it's because the activists that work on this are younger
and they're not familiar with this Maryland Slave Legacy project,
(26:54):
that the work has already been done.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
Yeah. So the senser for Baltimore County, Charles Signaler, actually
he gave a specific response to that argument and his
speech on the floor of the Senate on Tuesday for
the veto override, he explained that part of the distinction
was that while that study was explicitly to category to
categorize the harm of slavery, it was not focused specifically
(27:21):
on solutions, building the case for solutions that this study is.
So this study is design explicitly to build upon that
study and also the recent Marilyn Lynching Truth and Reconciliation
Commission study, which did it just come out a few
weeks ago. The goal is to build those historical analysis
into an explicit case for repair. For example, like anything,
(27:43):
any policy that's putent on operations will be taken to
the courts. Ed Bloom and his attack on the Fairless
mine the conservative legal movement, it's not a question that
if but when we are sued, right, so part of
the value is like, if we are going to do
cash payments, let's many people do study want to cash payments.
What is a way to do cash payments that would
(28:04):
achieve the result of giving people money and be able
to susstandilies was hurting. So one thing we've talked around
the LBS as researchers is we know a lot of
our people in Maryland were not their family were not
enslaved in Maryland. We are ignored the migration state and
top of being a slave state. So a lot of
our families were enslaved in North Carolina, South Carolina and
(28:26):
came up for the construction jobs during World War Two.
So what are the mechanisms that redress that actually meet
the needs of Maryland their families, So it may not
be only a slave lineage in Maryland. One thing we
talked about is whether we look at a family who
went to segregated schools. So if you can prove your
family and the trust segregated school in Maryland, we have
(28:47):
the studies that show the longitudinal differential and earning potential
because of that eviservation of our educational capacities, and that
could be the ground for cash payments. Now say, on
top of that, what we know leading thee reading the
history of integration, if that part of the violence then
to our schooling system wasn't just the denial of funding,
but when they integrated all those black teachers that have
(29:09):
done that incredible work in those segregated schools but not
brought into the integrated schools. So on top of cash payments,
for me personally, part of operations looks like, how do
we have an educational system that honors the cultural legacy
and the self determination and the ability to have black
teachers teach black kids curriculumvelop into that history and culture.
So to me, you have to combine both of those things.
(29:30):
And that's what the study allows us to do and
show what specificity, not just the arguments for cash payments,
but building the case for institutionally building out black people's
capacity to govern themselves, teach themselves, care for themselves, they
build institutions that can defend the black community in the future.
So to me, that's the unique value.
Speaker 1 (29:49):
Of the study. The governor now is saying that he's
looking forward to moving forward and that he will cooperate.
Is that a good sign?
Speaker 2 (30:02):
Yeah? I mean, I think folks that know the governor
by an ivy. I don't know him personally. He's he
seems genuinely committed to trying to do good things for
the black community. He's just had to still give political
change that is very much limited by his understanding of
traditional democratic party politics. Right. So you know there are
people who say, well, if you call the operations, it's
(30:22):
never going to pass just because of the frame reparations
makes people scared. And if we had believed that, we
would have never thought fought the youth jail that normally
wanted to build to lock up kids charge youth as adults,
that we stopped, that, we would never taught police reform
appeal in the law enforcement officers build rights in Maryland.
Something they said, what's impossible is the reparations for the
war on drugs is impossible. They said the youth pling
(30:44):
was impossible. So if we accept the political limitation step
before us. But that's not that's not my job. My
job is to push and to extend what people believe
is possible within that democratic political party process. So I
think we cannot excep like preempt the surrender in terms
of the limits of what people who explicitly don't care
(31:06):
about our people's liperations define as politically palatable, pragmatic, or possible.
Our job is to extend the boundaries of the political
pain they suffer for not responding to our community's needs,
to make the impossible possible in their self interest so
that they don't do something but them keep it in
hammeras right. So I think for us that's the political
(31:26):
serial change.
Speaker 1 (31:27):
I mean, And the fact is that they're always going
to say we don't have money for it, like that's
that's what we're hearing. San Francisco just voted to create
a reparations fund, but they didn't put any money in it,
you know, And that's what we're hearing in California. Oh yeah,
well we have a task force and we have these
great bills, but we don't have any money for it.
(31:48):
So that's the other you know, roadblock. I suppose that
you know, as part of aside from people's presidential ambitions,
we have the same thing with our governor here in California.
There's always the we don't have any money. And what
we discussed earlier, which is, you know, there are white
poor people, as if we never should fund any reparations
(32:10):
until there are no poor white people. I'm not sure
what one has to do with the other, but I
do think these things influence public opinion when it comes
to reparations absolutely.
Speaker 2 (32:23):
I think part of the value of the study is
that the State archives the institution that holds the study.
We've also just had thirty more years to accumulate information
that can go into the study, Like when the previous
study was that in the nineties, we didn't know John
Hopkins was a slave owner, Like, that's new information. So
(32:44):
there's all this new information that we can use to
stay are uniquely to build a case for this time.
Now to your second point again, I think part of
what the entices people to reparations and some people and
what repels others is this notion of almost like revenge, right,
like you harmed me, you have to recognize my pain
(33:04):
and you need to make it better. Now, I think
for us, revenge is for religious individuals or people that
that's not my goal. My goal is who got the
money and how do I get the money where it
needs to go. So that's why I'm not focused on
like you can now have a reparation gestapo shaking poor
white people down for Nicholson dimes that we're going to
(33:26):
send to the hood. That's not how this works. That's
why we're talking about institutions like Hopkins. Hopkins has a
thirteen billion dollar endowments downdowment made four billion dollars last year,
so just their money made four billion dollars in new
money last year. So when we talk about Maryland being
an affluent state, wine the richest states in the country,
(33:47):
even in the most budget deficit, there are institutions here
that have clearly been instilled not just from slavery, but
Jim Crow gentrification, blockbusting, exploitive medical research. There's just a
small flacks. Are they taxed on endownment for someone like
Hosting or someone like the gold Secker Foundation who got
that money through things like blockbusting and black neighborhoods real
(34:08):
estate that will produce over one hundred million dollars per year.
It was just a small cost on both violems. So
those are the sorts of policies. It's not about poor
white people, it's about rich white institutions. It's about rich
white companies that use tax shell games to avoid relatively
moderate state business taxes that would bring in again the
(34:30):
billions of dollars in revenue to the state policies we
put before the More administration in twenty twenty four to
fund reparations, and they say, we gratitude focused on the
enough acts, right, So these less of policies, pragmatic material
policies that are focused on not just redistributing money became
black and white, but redistributing power between the people who
(34:50):
have accumulated it, the elite institutions and businesses, and community
institutions and neighborhoods that have in the store theaglies. So
I think that's the real reparations and part of our
We focused so much on building that to capask these
communities and institutions rather than like an individualistic almost like
an American individualist frame of individual people, individual payments, individuals
(35:11):
are playing individual redemption. Like again, we think that individual
payment portion could be a critical part of what this
Replations Comission will study. I think for us, our big
focused that hall we empowered communities that have been devoid
of power, because if you give us the power, we'll
get the money, right. So I think it's really redistributing
power to communities.
Speaker 1 (35:31):
Laurence grand Prix is my guest. He's a director of
research for Leaders of a Beautiful Study out of Maryland. Baltimore, Maryland.
In the Reparation Spotlight this week, following the override of
Governor Wes Moore's veto of the Reparations Commission, that commission
will now be seated, got more questions, more conversation. It's
a Freedman Friday only on KBLA talk fifteen to eighty.
(35:54):
We do not it's a Freedman Friday. And in conversation
with Laurence grand Prix out of Leaders of a Beautiful Struggle.
He's a director of research there in Baltimore, Maryland. The
veto has been overturned. The governor says he's on board
to work with y'all. You guys seem like you have
your plan in place. What is next? What happens next?
Speaker 2 (36:17):
So one thing that people need to understand is that
the vetail was overridden, but the timeline that was in
the bill doesn't change. So the bill says need to
have recommendations out by twenty twenty seven, but because of
the veto, we lost like six seven months of time
to do the study. So one of the things we
(36:37):
have to do is we have to get the commission
and paneled as quickly as possible. So there are certain
appointments and criteria about what the makeup of the Commission
will be, but we need to make sure that that
is paneled as soon as possible, that we engage to
stay archives to see the capacity they need, find ways
to fill those capacity gaps, and begin the process of
(37:00):
thy community outreach and plan to try to produce results.
Because the idea is that if we get this done
by twenty twenty seven, By twenty twenty eight, then the
Maryland General Assembly is supposed to debate and potentially take
up the recommendations for legislative change that will come out
of the study. So again, if one of those things
that we need to get going of thing as possible,
understanding that we've lost, you know, six seven months of
(37:23):
time just because of the veto right. So I think
it's one of those things where we need to be
sure people understand that, so that if people understand if
we need an extension or if the work to make
sure the work isn't rushed. But to understand, the time
crunch was produced not by any failure of the Commission,
but by this inherent time crunch put in by the veto,
but not let that be an excuse not to do
(37:45):
the important work of which as much detail and spectaticity
as possible. Again, build upon all the things we've learned
from the last study twenty thirty years ago saw Maryland history.
Speaker 1 (37:56):
This is a huge panel twenty three people.
Speaker 2 (38:00):
Yeah, it is not as small undertaking. And I'm sure
you understand from commissions all over the country this work
can be very emotional. It can those people can have
strong feelings and factions can emerge. So I think part
of it's going to be a folks like us and
other folks community that really see this work is important,
(38:21):
speaking as much as possible, that we don't have strictly
on everything, but within any individual group's particular focus or
perspective or what they find is important them do as
much good work in that area as possible, to build
upon the stuff other people want to bring to the commission.
So we can have a document that reflects a variety
of approaches and perspectives, like a playbook. Knowing that we're
(38:41):
not going to be able to run all the place
one that we're not going to agree that we have
should run all the place, but to have as much
options as possible as opposed to being boiled down that
this is the solution. There is one solution that looks
like this, that having the variety of perspective brought to
the table about what material approaches to it take. Because
again the goal is to us a documents to influence
(39:02):
legislative recommendations for the Maryland General Assembly coming out of
twenty eight and I think that you know, that would
be really helpful looking at again the attacks on government
Maryland and vice acceptible defible budget cuts, so mechanisms that
we distribute money and wealth and power to communities impacted
by those budget cuts and buy potential weakening economy, the
role of AI hollowing out the workforce. It can be
(39:24):
more important than ever to materially benefit black folks, not
to just create this as a document to say we
did it.
Speaker 1 (39:30):
So. One of the things the Washington Post says in
their opinion piece backing up the governor's veto, they say
that Maryland already apologized in two thousand and six. I
want to combine this with Molly Bell's question. She asked,
has any government admitted that reparations is owed to descendants
of enslaved I e. You know, Jim Crow and other harms.
(39:52):
I would say California because by seeing a commission, aren't
you admitting it?
Speaker 2 (39:56):
Or no, doesn't admit that there's historical harms that needs
to be studied. Now, one thing other folks have says
is that apologies or studies do not put the state
on the hook for any reparative policies. So all what
we've done with the study is state that there's a
(40:17):
harm that needs to be evaluated and then produce recommendations
for the potential redress. It's kind of a commitment from the
state that redress is justified or necessary or sufficient. That
is saying hits would be great, but it's always going
to be a question of the political power to force
them to follow through on you.
Speaker 1 (40:36):
Yeah, that's what we're that's what we're seeing in California.
We you know, we seated the first commission in the country,
and now we're looking at what does it really take
though to take the recommendations of a study and actually
implement them in real reparations, not things you were doing
anyway that you now want to slap a reparation's label on.
Speaker 2 (40:56):
Exactly exactly and to have solutions to operate the scale
of the of the suffering, but also recognizing that we
may not have a ten billion dollar check next session
that goes out to black flolks, so that may not
be what this looks like, but cannot allow suits like
that being difficult pclude the ability to do what we
(41:17):
can do because like I said, invest in people whose
families have been impacted by Jim Crow segregated schooling systems,
or you know, again, putting more money into the bodies
that when we have Replations Commission in Maryland right now
that control millions of dollars and resources through the harm
of the Reparation for Warren Drugs legislation we passed. Once
we put some more investments into those bodies to operate
at a local level under local control in the communities
(41:39):
most compacted by the War on drugs. Asad for another
example of sometimes that concretely we can do in a
short intermediate term to take out from a ten million
dollar potot of money to a twenty million dollar pot
of money in the community's most impacted by the War
on drugs. We can do that right now and less
really focus on doing things like that, but also having
that vision towards the larger scale of repair to deal
what's the harm of the stuff.
Speaker 1 (42:00):
You know, we've argued in this on this Friedman Friday
space many times that I have conservatives of folks in
the reparations movement who really truly felt that Trump or
the MAGA Republicans might hand us some wins on reparations.
Haven't seen it. I noticed the Maryland vote is almost
almost exclusively along party lines. It is a long party line.
(42:24):
You have one dem that voted no right on the override.
So do you see any do you see any hope
forgetting bipartisan support for reparations?
Speaker 2 (42:36):
No? No, it's obviously in this moment, the cultural war
has infiltrated the Republican Party to the point where even
though you know this is about property and about violations
of our property, of our lives and our labor being
taken from us, you would think the services would care
about that in the astract. Then the context of reparations,
their love of property rights kind of disappets to the ether.
(42:58):
So unfortunately, we're gonna have to focus on not just
pushing Democrats, but again really leaning on moderate and conservative democrats.
There are folks in Maryland that will be Republicans in
most other states. But because of the Democratic hegemony, there
are moderate Democrats like Dahalia Hitar, who's a senator for
majority black district in northwest Baltimore City married Delaney James
that you know are going to be critical, skeptical, and
(43:20):
not want to go forward, but won't overtly say I
don't believe in oparations because they need black votes. So
it's going to be our job to really push those
moderate Democrats black and white, to show them this is
about virtue signaling or woke politics. It's about materially improving communities.
And if you don't support that, you don't support including communities. Right,
how about reparation at the abshaft only, I'm.
Speaker 1 (43:42):
Going to arrest you a little here, We got sixty seconds.
How can we help? What do you want to leave
us with? Lawrence Grandprix, So go.
Speaker 2 (43:49):
To our website Lbsfaltimore dot com. We produce the podcast,
research documents and analysis that explain our perspective. One thing
we'd love if you are in the state that's going
a legalized cannabis. We have reparation to the War on
Drugs Plan that we think is basically like a starter
kit or a build out for potential more expansive reparations policy.
(44:09):
It's not either or so. If you're in Pennsylvania and
North Carolina Virginias they still legalizing, please hit us out
and check us out on YouTube. We're on the Black
Liberation YouTube media network. There two podcasts in Search of
Black Power and political Commentary Corner, so check those out
and if you want to contact us, look us up
on LBS Baltimore on any social media site.
Speaker 1 (44:30):
Thank you so much. I really appreciate the conversation and
the great work you guys are doing. Lawrence Grand Prix,
leaders of a beautiful struggle.
Speaker 2 (44:38):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (44:39):
We'll be hearing from afrocentric comedic scholar Ostra Quasi. It's
a blockbuster conversation that's next on KBLA Talk fifteen eighty
Fifteen eighty, it is time for Friedman Friday. We do
this the second hour of every single Friday on this
radio station, dedicate the time to reparations. We aim to
have a comprehensive conversation all walks of life, all philosophies, viewpoints,
geographical regions and mindsets. We want to be part of
(00:23):
making sure we all know what the heck is going
on and that we can therefore become part of the momentum,
part of the solution, part of the work that is
needed to get reparations across the Finnish line, city by city,
state by state, county by county, and eventually nationally and internationally,
hopefully not that eventually. I'm being joined now by a
(00:46):
reparations activist out of Baltimore, Maryland. He is He is
someone who's been working on this particular issue that's in
the news for quite some time, ever since the governor
vetoed the Reparations Commission, and actually before that as well.
(01:09):
He is part of an organization called Leaders of a
Beautiful Struggle. He's a researcher and an activist who is
also a podcaster. He's got over seventy podcast podcast under
his belt. He's got fifteen years of research and policy
(01:30):
advocacy experience working with community organizations and researchers to use
that work to drive social change towards community self determination.
Lawrence grand Prix.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
Welcome, Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
Yeah, so tell me the story of what happened from
your perspective. I'm pretty sure you're familiar with California. We've
had two reparations legislative fails. We had one where our
legislative black caucus failed to bring the votes the bills
to the floor, and then the one that they did
get through the governor veto. This year, we have the
(02:06):
governor veto everything except a measure that many consider a
stalling tactic. Tell me the story of what happened in
Maryland as you see it.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Well, again, thank you for having me. So a few
things to set context for your audience. Maryland has the
largest black caucus in its state legislature in our state
capital of Annapolis, of any state in the country. So
I believe it's like over thirty of the lawmakers, almost
a third in the state was almost a third the
population of the state of Maryland is black. So reparations
(02:42):
have been something that people have been talking about for
a while, and we actually came to a meeting with
some of the folks from the governor's team, and this
would have been in twenty twenty four, so before the
twenty twenty five legislative session started, we've passed all of
our laws in one hundred days in the state from
January to April, a mad dash. But before them, we
(03:03):
came not with a study bill. We came with the
natural plans for taxation and to progress a taxation of
people with wealth and certain closing of bluepholes that actually
get money for reparations, and actually put that in the
bill in twenty twenty five. The governor's team said they
didn't think that was the approach they wanted to take,
so we actually pivoted as a compromise to a study bill.
(03:26):
Study bill was never our intent, but there were folks
in the Black Caucus who stated they were getting interest
from people in their districts to do a study bill,
so we pivoted. After again the governor's team said they
were not interested in the Comprehensive Operations Funding bill to
the study bill, and again the governor said they weren't
a fan of the reparations policy if we framed it.
(03:46):
They never say explicitly. They were totally against the study
bill until the bill was basically right on the finish line.
In March, we started to hear rumors that the government's
team were calling people saying there was a public story
that selects a Truth and Reconciliation commission instead, and we're like,
truth acciliation is not reparation. You know, we come from
(04:06):
a lineage as a Pan African organization where some of
our people have critique of truth and reconciliation in South
Africa and how it was used in some ways to
also scate material land reparations in South Africa. So that
was not as much as an interest. It's not the
same of reparations, right. So we started to hear rumors
after they were trying to kill the bill, and then
they said the bill may be dead, and then we
(04:29):
said we heard over just going to pass it and
if in what happens happened, not really thinking he was
going to betow it, but the governor did. The bill
did pass in twenty twenty five in margin people and
then the government vetoed in April. So in the state
of Maryland, you can override a veto if you have
(04:49):
a three fifths of the legislature agreed to override the veto,
and so that bill passed with more than three fifths,
a big enough margin to over ride the veto. But
governor just have a lot of power. This is a
Democrat majority state, Democrat veto proof majorities, Democratic stronghold, and
a powerful democratic governor can can put pressure on people
to stick with them and go with their opinion on
(05:13):
the veto over us. So we heard rumors about the
governor leaning on folks. The governor announced he was thinking
of supporting people in the primary challenges in the Democratic primary,
or people that the governor thought really represented his agenda.
And one can lead between the lines in terms of
potentially targeting people who he saw is pushing policies that
he didn't agree with so made him look bad. So
(05:34):
there's a lot of pressure on the Black cauc just
to stand firm, and to that credit, just this week,
the Black Caucus did stand firm. We got vetol. We
got over sixty percent of overwright majorities in the House
and Senate. So as of tuesday, in a special session
to the end. This is December, not January. This is
a special session because our Speaker of the House actually
stepped down to be a speaker, so they had to
(05:56):
come into session. And by law, whenever you come back
into session, you have to make up all the beta overrides.
They took up all the veta overrides. One is too
much of reparations bills. So it's official Maryland will have
a reparations Commission to study not just the harms of slavery,
but concrete plans for material redress for those prms.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
In a statement, now you see this as a victory.
I mean, the reason I'm asking is because you started
out you said, you started out asking for a comprehensive
taxation and funding bill that would actually start moving money
into reparations, and you compromise with the study bill, and
(06:34):
then that was vetoed, and now the veto was overridden.
Speaker 2 (06:37):
Is that a victory, I believe? So, I believe is
an example of the Black Caucus standing firm against pressure.
And not all study bills are the stained. So the
governor has certain arguments he's used, yes to explain his details.
Some of them I think makes sense from the outside
looking in. So one of his arguments is that the
study is what you do when you don't really want
(06:58):
to act, We don't need to study. Studies are often
the stall tactic. Let's just act. So again, I think
that the fact that his team was not interested in
a comprehensive funding taxation bill shows the action thing. Maybe
he wasn't an interesting acting, but to take his study
from seriously, this study is not just designed to be
(07:19):
stingly put into the public, have a press conference and
put in a draw. It's specifically designed to look at
mechanisms of repairing the harm that can do things like
stand up to you know, the constitutional attacks on race
based policies. There's so much in terms of how you
actually pay for reparations that people just kind of stay,
we'll figure it out later. Well, no, we want to
(07:40):
figure it out now. And we have some ideas about
how to fund reparations built in Mayland. But to get
those funding mechanisms across the finish line, people and lawmakers
have legitimate questions and you need research to answer those questions.
So if the Gunns, for example, we're thinking about pushing
a proposal to make people like John Hopkins can very
evoyative of our community be a henry at lacks of
(08:02):
seals or John Hopkins owned slaves, so they claimed he
didn't he got money from the railroad to being no
railroad which used slaves labor during the Civil War. But
the specifics on those things is stuff we need to
have clarity on to make the case. They're feeling like
Hopkins owes, how much do they owe? How much should
they pay? These are all questions we can answer for
(08:23):
study not just for the sake of studying good but
to push concrete repairtive policies that can actually move money
and make these policies stand up to public criticism and
constitutional scrutiny. So I think, again, not all studies are
the same. This study uniquely, I think it's very important,
and I think it's uniquely important to show black folks
that we can demand the time and space to study
(08:45):
not just for our oppression, but solutions to our oppression.
So I think it is a winn.
Speaker 1 (08:50):
Yeah, And what I mean you said the governor was
talking about or you know, dropping hints that there might
be primary challenges to some of these lawmakers if they
supported this and doing what governors do. Governors have a
lot of power, especially when it comes to lawmakers. Legislators
because they have to sign anything that they create into
(09:11):
law or not sign it. But I know you guys
were doing some counter law being and counter organizing. What
kinds of stuff did you do? And I'm asking for
a friend because you know, here in California there was
so much disappointment about our governor's vetos two years in
a row around reparations.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
So one of the things, again, we're not a nonprofit,
so we are a thinking that operates from explicitly Black nationalists,
Tennis and nationalist framework. And part of the reason we
can do that is that we have a business model
that includes people that get with money every month, but
we do feat of service research, it insalting gags. We
don't get money from large foundations, and we can be
directly engaged in the political space that way allow of
(09:55):
nonprofits legually can't. So we spend a lot of time
going to Annapolis and we're specifically to start Black Caucus,
which when we started doing that work over ten years ago,
a lot of people said, you know, their reactionary, they're conservatives,
they don't work together, they don't have power. But over
the past ten years, the Black Caucuss has really part
of that's national shifts, the party democratic play shifts, and
(10:16):
left the part of making an intentional effort to engage
and organize them around the variety of issues, be it
funding for gras groups, organizations to do bounce or mentions,
be it allown issues like reparations, be it police reform.
To really give them like we're a think tanks that
we do what same thanks do. We help provide research,
we do testimony, to give them bills to sort show
(10:37):
them like, you can actually do this work, and we'll
hold you accountable if you don't. Like we'll go into
your district and we'll talk to church groups and we'll
talk to community groups when you do poorly, but we
will also talk positively about you when you do well.
And so, because we can be directly politically and we
go to black civil society, church groups, community groups, groups
that are already organized in the black community that already
(10:57):
have political engagements that tells them what the law of
make is doing in the state capital, which oftentimes can
be so hidden. We've been able to help organize a
Black caucus which hasicially been unorganized and really of rougher
stamps for leadership. So I think them standing up to
leadership and the governor in this moment. I think it's
the culination of a decade of work on our part
and the part of a lot of our folks that
we work with, especially like police accountability advocates, people of
(11:21):
mothers of murderous sons and daughters, you know, just pushing
the Black Caucus to sink independently, because if the Black
caucus in this state at least Maryland stood up, I mean,
they can basically run the state legislature, but they oftentimes
act like their hands are tied. They can't act, they
can't move. So I think that different intentional effort to
create a grassroots movement to really demand accountability from the
(11:44):
Black caucus, and that's really what's critical to our I've
think success here in Maryland, and I think in general,
the progressive CAUCUSUS. There are other groups of people who
traditionally have been lequal my reparations, like a live of
our progressive leftist folks. You know, we hear room that
they see a reparation of kind of distraction and things
(12:04):
like that. So we've worked a retally hard to engage
our progressive left it allies as well to say this
isn't about identity politics. This isn't about deflecting from matorial distribution.
This is that's not the distribution. What is patting Hopkins
and we distributing to have money other than res an
economical distribution I mean, And it's also a debt.
Speaker 1 (12:23):
I mean. And it's also a debt to be fair,
which is you know, you can call it a distraction
easily if it's not owed to you. The real Friday
Jones is in our chat. She says, I'll be reading
the Maryland legislation to form an opinion on it. We
must also ask what role the DNC played and how
Maryland moved with pressuring legislators. We can look at that
when we come forward on KBLA talk fifteen eighty talking
(12:46):
with Lawrence grand Prix. He's the director of research for
Leaders of a Beautiful Struggle I think tank, not a nonprofit,
but they've been organizing around reparations and looking at this
historic veto override it happened overriding the governor's veto of
this reparation study. Bill Friday Jones, who's actually aka Kansum
(13:09):
Mohammada Reparations Advisory Commissioner here in the city of Los Angeles,
where we're broadcasting from. She's asking about the role of
the DNC and pressuring lawmakers there and sort of putting
their fingers on the scale around reparations for the city,
for the state of Maryland.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
Yeah, so I don't know about the DNC specifically, but
I'll talk about some of the larger dynamics at play now.
The governor has continuously said he's not running for president. However,
right after the veto happened, he was in South Carolina,
which was one of the key primary states in the
previous Democratic primary in twenty twenty, giving a speech with
(13:55):
you know, Jim Clive and fish Rye. This is someone who,
I think it's fair to say objectively, is moving in
the way to decisions themselves to keep open the window
to run for president. There's a feeling amongst many that
those reparations was seen as something you could gesture to
in twenty twenty when a lot of the primary folks
in the Democratic primary for president had a plan. Most
(14:16):
of those plans were just funding for nonprofits and fort
of more traditional Democratic policies called reparations. They weren't truly
from the Pan African Black nationalists like black sovereignty perspective reparations,
they were just funding King nonprofits. So a true reperations approach,
I don't know it's genuinely popular in the DMC crowd,
And certainly if you're trying to run in the moderate
(14:37):
lane of a presidential election in the Democratic primary, there's
a feeling that supporting reparations would hurt you, especially if
you were trying to be a moderate in the Democratic primary.
So in the world where Wes Moore is a military guy,
Wesmore calls himselves, you know, sort of a pragmatic capitalist,
you know, but with the heart he's seeing as more
of a moderate. So there's a feeling that if he
(14:59):
were to con so they're wunning for president this reparation
supposed well, if he would have supported it, some people
feel he may think it might hurt him, which may
explain the vitail right. So in the world with as
a backlash to the quote unquote wokeness of reparations to
seeing as part of that sort of woke policy, that's
the feeling that some National Democratic Party folks may be influencing,
(15:20):
or least the national politics is influenced. In the Veto decision,
which is loud. We thought it was imposed to get
to override.
Speaker 1 (15:27):
Well, you know, we can see this opinion piece in
the Washington Post supporting the governor. It kind of feels
like the fruit him reaping the fruit that he sowed
by that veto, because they're saying that the editorial board,
and this was in Yesterday's Washington Post says Wes Moore
(15:49):
is right about reparations. But to me, it's pretty okay
from my perspective, flimsay, I love to hear your reaction
because they say, First of all, they're saying, because the
Democratic supermajorities in the state legislature overrode his veto, unseeming
unseemly and illogical arguments about reparations will once again be
(16:11):
litigated in public. That's their first argument, like, oh, we don't.
Their first point is he was right. We don't want
all these illogical arguments to be made in public. And
then they go on to argue that Maryland has white
residents that aren't rich, and so why should they be
on the hook for sending reparations to say Prince George County,
(16:35):
where black residents are doing well, you know, have some wealth.
I think That is the most one of the worst
arguments I've ever heard of. I can't believe the Washington
Post printed that. So what you're saying is that if
you owe us a debt but we're doing all right
without it, you don't have to pay it.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
Yeah, the Washington Post if not only owned by just Bevo's,
you know, multi billionaire owner Amazon, they've explicitly stated that
they want our out these to only support pro capitalist
physicians after Trump one in twenty twenty four. Right, So
we can understand the instances they have, But I think
that argument reflects a pretty common perspective on operations. It
(17:19):
only can reflect stealing or taking property from people that
cannot be have a i e. White people and giving
it to black people. This is the idea that like
a black person's coming to take your help from you
and give it to a black person. Right, if you're white,
this is ridiculous, Right, This is a caricature. And that's
what people do because of the anxiety of you know,
slavery volts. You know, Maryland was right next to Harper's ferry,
(17:41):
So you got John Brown, you got Nat Turner. That's
there's a specific anxiety in Maryland around black people having
forceful advocacy to talk about plavsy. Because we were a
border state, we were not confederacy, you cannot succeed and
we did not have reconstruction here. So Maryland desperately wants
suffer it that it has slavery. We phrase Harriet Tubman,
(18:03):
we phrased Frederick Beckliss, but hacked to flee Maryland in
order to do their advocacy. Now, Maryland is south of
the Nason Dixon line. It is the south, but because
of the Northeast Corridor illusion, Maryland continuously try to think
itself out of the history of slavery. So just to
kind of wrap up, I think for us, we have
(18:24):
done other things around reparations. So we actually wrote the
part of Maryland's bills that reinvested tax revenue from legal
Candida sales makes into communities impacted by the War on drugs.
So that's already existing War on drugs commissions that control
millions of bottles of revenue throughout the state of Maryland
to do reparations for the War on drugs, and that
(18:44):
I think if an example of attack of reparations policy.
We want to scale up with this commission support so
that's going to look at investments like to media based
silence prevention, cooperative housing, housing outside of the market, you know,
not just sort of nonprofit grant programs, besting in cooperative business,
wealth building things that can build people's cultural and political
(19:05):
ability to build their society up. And that's what reparations
is for us. You know, a lot of people are
focused on cash payments. We're not exclusive of believing some
cash payments might be part of replations planning, but the
core part of US as a pan apsal organization is
building community accountable, community controlled community institutions to meet the
(19:26):
needs of people to sustain themselves, protect themselves, and advance
themselves civilizationally, that's the goal of operations. And even in
places where people have like some black home ownership, that's
what was hollowed out. That's what has been systemically attacked
throughout our history, not just because of slavery, but because
of Jim Crow, because of the War on drugs, because
(19:46):
of the nonprofit industrial complex as well as the policing
industrial complex. So it's building up those community institutions. That's
what we need in PG County, That's what we mean
in Baltimore City and that's why I believe wean of
operations commissions.
Speaker 1 (19:59):
So are you you're not saying you guys would be
against individual payments or checks?
Speaker 2 (20:04):
Are you not against it? I'll think for us, for
our organization, where we have a degree of expertise and
focus is giving public dollars to community institutions. So be it.
You know, the grand mother in the community that does
youth programming that doesn't have a nonprofit station and doesn't
know how to write a grant, right or it's been
(20:24):
denied grants systemically from racist foundations. Right, Like we have
institutions here in Baltimore, like the Baltimore State's Children and
Youth Signs that the built after the Baltimore Uprising in
twenty fifteen to repair the hollowing guy the community institutions
because people like that have not refunded for decades in
this town. Right So, I think it's looking at things
(20:46):
like that because if we give operations, we need community
institutions for people to invest those dollars. And if we
give cash donations, where's the black businesses that can keep
the dollar in the black neighborhood. Where are the black
institutions that we can invest in so that money just
doesn't go to private schools or go to rent, or
go to the Starbucks or Walmart, like, we need to
have the community institution that considered alongside any infusion of
(21:09):
cash into the black community. So I think for us,
it's that both and approach that we feel is really important.
We know that our particular expertise is in the community
institution building perspective. So I think the Reparations Commission is
very clear on studying and figuring out what is the
specific land that was taken. Like Maryland has Participate Bay.
There were black oyster people and black water people that
(21:31):
were literally like limited and kicked out of the state
because they were getting wealthy working on the water that
was Bablock had the largest population of black freed people
in America pre Civil War. Like what if the mechanisms
of racial terror that got down land taken. I mean,
we can invent to the red lining in Baltimore City,
Like what if the mechanisms of land staffs and blockbusting
(21:53):
that forced people to buy homes that higher rates. They
are all these historical places where investments and redress economically
may make sense. We want to figure out how to
do it. Effectively, how to do it constitutionally, but on
top of that, we need institutions that can serve to
build long term, sustainable political power and meet our needs
(22:13):
beyond the line.
Speaker 1 (22:14):
Diphany checking Fahima called from DC and made a passionate
argument about why another study wasn't needed. We'll address that
and more when we come forward. We've got news, traffic
and sports right here. Then more with Lawrence grand Prix,
director of research for Leaders of a Beautiful Struggle out
of Baltimore, Maryland, in the wake of the Governor's veto
(22:38):
of the Reparations Commission being overridden and now that commission
will be seated, all that straight ahead on KBLA talk
fifteen eighty Yes, indeed, it is Friedman Friday, one of
the legislators there in the state of Maryland, quoted as
saying that in this time of attacks on diversity, equity
and inclusion, attacks on affirmative action, the mission becomes the
(23:01):
Maryland Commission, and the overriding of the Governor's veto becomes
even more important. The Mayor of Chicago, Brandon Johnson, signing
an executive order Monday to create a task force there
focused on reparations. This is continued momentum, I would say,
in the face of blistering opposition from the federal government
(23:24):
and an environment on the national scene that seems to
be pretty hostile towards anything that helps black people. Is
that part of why this is important? How how much
of a role does that play in your in your view?
Speaker 2 (23:43):
I think that's part of it. I think for us,
the goal is not to be reactive, to be proactive.
So for us, you know, we we're Democratic Party strong hold.
The last time we had an ambitious, potential Democratic UH
president come out of Merlin with Martin O'Malley, and he
initiated a regime of over seven hundred thousand the illegal
(24:05):
arrest in Baltimore City. So those on the Democrats right,
So part of this is like be very explicit to
hold folks accountable, folks who are claiming to represent a
liberatory approach for our folks. We need to have a
standard to actually have our people have a north starf
what liberation acts actually looks like. For example, one of
(24:27):
the things the Governor's tiles us his his version of
reparative policy is this thing called the Enough Act, which
targets historically Reid lined communities for competitive grant funding ten
million dollars a year at most higher. The value of
a study is just to explain to folks that ten
million dollars a year is so woefully inadequate when you
understand the scale of the attacks upon our people, and
(24:51):
he can do fancy press conferences or Democrats can do
big community events and people are crying and dancing and
doing whatever, off just ten million dollars a year grant cycle.
But to show people not only the level of violence
on them to our people, the scale up the stuff,
but it shows them a concrete plan for how we're
actually going to get to repair. Because I think most
people it's like, yeah, the study is going to say
(25:13):
the older billion trillion dollars, that's never going to happen,
So what's the point. I think for us, it goes
to be very explicit because moderate Democrats are going to
make legitimate arguments that say anything we do is going
to be attacked in the courts. So this study is
to show people, here's how we're going to defeat the
court's attacks. And part of the value of that is
(25:33):
to deflate the talking points from moderate Democrats who's like, yeah,
it's a cut love places in theory, but we can't
do it this way because it's going to get overtimed.
It's like, no, that's not true, that's a talking point.
You used to do nothing, And the study has the
value of getting time and research in specifics to undermine
those moderate democratic arguments to push local democrats to the
(25:55):
state level to pass policies that, if we allow them to,
will be the smithed as impossible poleyanda and a constitutional
So I think that's really the value of the study
is to push back against out of a Democrat saying
a supportition theory, but that's nothing we can do, or
the things that we're doing within the current political arrangement
are sufficient and basically art reparations if the under staying
(26:17):
the goal is not just to fund people between that's
in their self determination and capacity that govern themselves. That's
very different than the grand program. That's very different than
most of the stuff that was held up in twenty
twenty eth oparations.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
The conversation that I referenced with Fahima out of DC,
who's a long time I think reparationists. I know she is.
Actually she says that there's already a study the Maryland
Slave Legacy Project, that that is just repetitive, and maybe
it's because the activists that work on this are younger
and they're not familiar with this Maryland Slave Legacy project,
(26:54):
that the work has already been done.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
Yeah. So the senser for Baltimore County, Charles Signaler, actually
he gave a specific response to that argument and his
speech on the floor of the Senate on Tuesday for
the veto override, he explained that part of the distinction
was that while that study was explicitly to category to
categorize the harm of slavery, it was not focused specifically
(27:21):
on solutions, building the case for solutions that this study is.
So this study is design explicitly to build upon that
study and also the recent Marilyn Lynching Truth and Reconciliation
Commission study, which did it just come out a few
weeks ago. The goal is to build those historical analysis
into an explicit case for repair. For example, like anything,
(27:43):
any policy that's putent on operations will be taken to
the courts. Ed Bloom and his attack on the Fairless
mine the conservative legal movement, it's not a question that
if but when we are sued, right, so part of
the value is like, if we are going to do
cash payments, let's many people do study want to cash payments.
What is a way to do cash payments that would
(28:04):
achieve the result of giving people money and be able
to susstandilies was hurting. So one thing we've talked around
the LBS as researchers is we know a lot of
our people in Maryland were not their family were not
enslaved in Maryland. We are ignored the migration state and
top of being a slave state. So a lot of
our families were enslaved in North Carolina, South Carolina and
(28:26):
came up for the construction jobs during World War Two.
So what are the mechanisms that redress that actually meet
the needs of Maryland their families, So it may not
be only a slave lineage in Maryland. One thing we
talked about is whether we look at a family who
went to segregated schools. So if you can prove your
family and the trust segregated school in Maryland, we have
(28:47):
the studies that show the longitudinal differential and earning potential
because of that eviservation of our educational capacities, and that
could be the ground for cash payments. Now say, on
top of that, what we know leading thee reading the
history of integration, if that part of the violence then
to our schooling system wasn't just the denial of funding,
but when they integrated all those black teachers that have
(29:09):
done that incredible work in those segregated schools but not
brought into the integrated schools. So on top of cash payments,
for me personally, part of operations looks like, how do
we have an educational system that honors the cultural legacy
and the self determination and the ability to have black
teachers teach black kids curriculumvelop into that history and culture.
So to me, you have to combine both of those things.
(29:30):
And that's what the study allows us to do and
show what specificity, not just the arguments for cash payments,
but building the case for institutionally building out black people's
capacity to govern themselves, teach themselves, care for themselves, they
build institutions that can defend the black community in the future.
So to me, that's the unique value.
Speaker 1 (29:49):
Of the study. The governor now is saying that he's
looking forward to moving forward and that he will cooperate.
Is that a good sign?
Speaker 2 (30:02):
Yeah? I mean, I think folks that know the governor
by an ivy. I don't know him personally. He's he
seems genuinely committed to trying to do good things for
the black community. He's just had to still give political
change that is very much limited by his understanding of
traditional democratic party politics. Right. So you know there are
people who say, well, if you call the operations, it's
(30:22):
never going to pass just because of the frame reparations
makes people scared. And if we had believed that, we
would have never thought fought the youth jail that normally
wanted to build to lock up kids charge youth as adults,
that we stopped, that, we would never taught police reform
appeal in the law enforcement officers build rights in Maryland.
Something they said, what's impossible is the reparations for the
war on drugs is impossible. They said the youth pling
(30:44):
was impossible. So if we accept the political limitation step
before us. But that's not that's not my job. My
job is to push and to extend what people believe
is possible within that democratic political party process. So I
think we cannot excep like preempt the surrender in terms
of the limits of what people who explicitly don't care
(31:06):
about our people's liperations define as politically palatable, pragmatic, or possible.
Our job is to extend the boundaries of the political
pain they suffer for not responding to our community's needs,
to make the impossible possible in their self interest so
that they don't do something but them keep it in
hammeras right. So I think for us that's the political
(31:26):
serial change.
Speaker 1 (31:27):
I mean, And the fact is that they're always going
to say we don't have money for it, like that's
that's what we're hearing. San Francisco just voted to create
a reparations fund, but they didn't put any money in it,
you know, And that's what we're hearing in California. Oh yeah,
well we have a task force and we have these
great bills, but we don't have any money for it.
(31:48):
So that's the other you know, roadblock. I suppose that
you know, as part of aside from people's presidential ambitions,
we have the same thing with our governor here in California.
There's always the we don't have any money. And what
we discussed earlier, which is, you know, there are white
poor people, as if we never should fund any reparations
(32:10):
until there are no poor white people. I'm not sure
what one has to do with the other, but I
do think these things influence public opinion when it comes
to reparations absolutely.
Speaker 2 (32:23):
I think part of the value of the study is
that the State archives the institution that holds the study.
We've also just had thirty more years to accumulate information
that can go into the study, Like when the previous
study was that in the nineties, we didn't know John
Hopkins was a slave owner, Like, that's new information. So
(32:44):
there's all this new information that we can use to
stay are uniquely to build a case for this time.
Now to your second point again, I think part of
what the entices people to reparations and some people and
what repels others is this notion of almost like revenge, right,
like you harmed me, you have to recognize my pain
(33:04):
and you need to make it better. Now, I think
for us, revenge is for religious individuals or people that
that's not my goal. My goal is who got the
money and how do I get the money where it
needs to go. So that's why I'm not focused on
like you can now have a reparation gestapo shaking poor
white people down for Nicholson dimes that we're going to
(33:26):
send to the hood. That's not how this works. That's
why we're talking about institutions like Hopkins. Hopkins has a
thirteen billion dollar endowments downdowment made four billion dollars last year,
so just their money made four billion dollars in new
money last year. So when we talk about Maryland being
an affluent state, wine the richest states in the country,
(33:47):
even in the most budget deficit, there are institutions here
that have clearly been instilled not just from slavery, but
Jim Crow gentrification, blockbusting, exploitive medical research. There's just a
small flacks. Are they taxed on endownment for someone like
Hosting or someone like the gold Secker Foundation who got
that money through things like blockbusting and black neighborhoods real
(34:08):
estate that will produce over one hundred million dollars per year.
It was just a small cost on both violems. So
those are the sorts of policies. It's not about poor
white people, it's about rich white institutions. It's about rich
white companies that use tax shell games to avoid relatively
moderate state business taxes that would bring in again the
(34:30):
billions of dollars in revenue to the state policies we
put before the More administration in twenty twenty four to
fund reparations, and they say, we gratitude focused on the
enough acts, right, So these less of policies, pragmatic material
policies that are focused on not just redistributing money became
black and white, but redistributing power between the people who
(34:50):
have accumulated it, the elite institutions and businesses, and community
institutions and neighborhoods that have in the store theaglies. So
I think that's the real reparations and part of our
We focused so much on building that to capask these
communities and institutions rather than like an individualistic almost like
an American individualist frame of individual people, individual payments, individuals
(35:11):
are playing individual redemption. Like again, we think that individual
payment portion could be a critical part of what this
Replations Comission will study. I think for us, our big
focused that hall we empowered communities that have been devoid
of power, because if you give us the power, we'll
get the money, right. So I think it's really redistributing
power to communities.
Speaker 1 (35:31):
Laurence grand Prix is my guest. He's a director of
research for Leaders of a Beautiful Study out of Maryland. Baltimore, Maryland.
In the Reparation Spotlight this week, following the override of
Governor Wes Moore's veto of the Reparations Commission, that commission
will now be seated, got more questions, more conversation. It's
a Freedman Friday only on KBLA talk fifteen to eighty.
(35:54):
We do not it's a Freedman Friday. And in conversation
with Laurence grand Prix out of Leaders of a Beautiful Struggle.
He's a director of research there in Baltimore, Maryland. The
veto has been overturned. The governor says he's on board
to work with y'all. You guys seem like you have
your plan in place. What is next? What happens next?
Speaker 2 (36:17):
So one thing that people need to understand is that
the vetail was overridden, but the timeline that was in
the bill doesn't change. So the bill says need to
have recommendations out by twenty twenty seven, but because of
the veto, we lost like six seven months of time
to do the study. So one of the things we
(36:37):
have to do is we have to get the commission
and paneled as quickly as possible. So there are certain
appointments and criteria about what the makeup of the Commission
will be, but we need to make sure that that
is paneled as soon as possible, that we engage to
stay archives to see the capacity they need, find ways
to fill those capacity gaps, and begin the process of
(37:00):
thy community outreach and plan to try to produce results.
Because the idea is that if we get this done
by twenty twenty seven, By twenty twenty eight, then the
Maryland General Assembly is supposed to debate and potentially take
up the recommendations for legislative change that will come out
of the study. So again, if one of those things
that we need to get going of thing as possible,
understanding that we've lost, you know, six seven months of
(37:23):
time just because of the veto right. So I think
it's one of those things where we need to be
sure people understand that, so that if people understand if
we need an extension or if the work to make
sure the work isn't rushed. But to understand, the time
crunch was produced not by any failure of the Commission,
but by this inherent time crunch put in by the veto,
but not let that be an excuse not to do
(37:45):
the important work of which as much detail and spectaticity
as possible. Again, build upon all the things we've learned
from the last study twenty thirty years ago saw Maryland history.
Speaker 1 (37:56):
This is a huge panel twenty three people.
Speaker 2 (38:00):
Yeah, it is not as small undertaking. And I'm sure
you understand from commissions all over the country this work
can be very emotional. It can those people can have
strong feelings and factions can emerge. So I think part
of it's going to be a folks like us and
other folks community that really see this work is important,
(38:21):
speaking as much as possible, that we don't have strictly
on everything, but within any individual group's particular focus or
perspective or what they find is important them do as
much good work in that area as possible, to build
upon the stuff other people want to bring to the commission.
So we can have a document that reflects a variety
of approaches and perspectives, like a playbook. Knowing that we're
(38:41):
not going to be able to run all the place
one that we're not going to agree that we have
should run all the place, but to have as much
options as possible as opposed to being boiled down that
this is the solution. There is one solution that looks
like this, that having the variety of perspective brought to
the table about what material approaches to it take. Because
again the goal is to us a documents to influence
(39:02):
legislative recommendations for the Maryland General Assembly coming out of
twenty eight and I think that you know, that would
be really helpful looking at again the attacks on government
Maryland and vice acceptible defible budget cuts, so mechanisms that
we distribute money and wealth and power to communities impacted
by those budget cuts and buy potential weakening economy, the
role of AI hollowing out the workforce. It can be
(39:24):
more important than ever to materially benefit black folks, not
to just create this as a document to say we
did it.
Speaker 1 (39:30):
So. One of the things the Washington Post says in
their opinion piece backing up the governor's veto, they say
that Maryland already apologized in two thousand and six. I
want to combine this with Molly Bell's question. She asked,
has any government admitted that reparations is owed to descendants
of enslaved I e. You know, Jim Crow and other harms.
(39:52):
I would say California because by seeing a commission, aren't
you admitting it?
Speaker 2 (39:56):
Or no, doesn't admit that there's historical harms that needs
to be studied. Now, one thing other folks have says
is that apologies or studies do not put the state
on the hook for any reparative policies. So all what
we've done with the study is state that there's a
(40:17):
harm that needs to be evaluated and then produce recommendations
for the potential redress. It's kind of a commitment from the
state that redress is justified or necessary or sufficient. That
is saying hits would be great, but it's always going
to be a question of the political power to force
them to follow through on you.
Speaker 1 (40:36):
Yeah, that's what we're that's what we're seeing in California.
We you know, we seated the first commission in the country,
and now we're looking at what does it really take
though to take the recommendations of a study and actually
implement them in real reparations, not things you were doing
anyway that you now want to slap a reparation's label on.
Speaker 2 (40:56):
Exactly exactly and to have solutions to operate the scale
of the of the suffering, but also recognizing that we
may not have a ten billion dollar check next session
that goes out to black flolks, so that may not
be what this looks like, but cannot allow suits like
that being difficult pclude the ability to do what we
(41:17):
can do because like I said, invest in people whose
families have been impacted by Jim Crow segregated schooling systems,
or you know, again, putting more money into the bodies
that when we have Replations Commission in Maryland right now
that control millions of dollars and resources through the harm
of the Reparation for Warren Drugs legislation we passed. Once
we put some more investments into those bodies to operate
at a local level under local control in the communities
(41:39):
most compacted by the War on drugs. Asad for another
example of sometimes that concretely we can do in a
short intermediate term to take out from a ten million
dollar potot of money to a twenty million dollar pot
of money in the community's most impacted by the War
on drugs. We can do that right now and less
really focus on doing things like that, but also having
that vision towards the larger scale of repair to deal
what's the harm of the stuff.
Speaker 1 (42:00):
You know, we've argued in this on this Friedman Friday
space many times that I have conservatives of folks in
the reparations movement who really truly felt that Trump or
the MAGA Republicans might hand us some wins on reparations.
Haven't seen it. I noticed the Maryland vote is almost
almost exclusively along party lines. It is a long party line.
(42:24):
You have one dem that voted no right on the override.
So do you see any do you see any hope
forgetting bipartisan support for reparations?
Speaker 2 (42:36):
No? No, it's obviously in this moment, the cultural war
has infiltrated the Republican Party to the point where even
though you know this is about property and about violations
of our property, of our lives and our labor being
taken from us, you would think the services would care
about that in the astract. Then the context of reparations,
their love of property rights kind of disappets to the ether.
(42:58):
So unfortunately, we're gonna have to focus on not just
pushing Democrats, but again really leaning on moderate and conservative democrats.
There are folks in Maryland that will be Republicans in
most other states. But because of the Democratic hegemony, there
are moderate Democrats like Dahalia Hitar, who's a senator for
majority black district in northwest Baltimore City married Delaney James
that you know are going to be critical, skeptical, and
(43:20):
not want to go forward, but won't overtly say I
don't believe in oparations because they need black votes. So
it's going to be our job to really push those
moderate Democrats black and white, to show them this is
about virtue signaling or woke politics. It's about materially improving communities.
And if you don't support that, you don't support including communities. Right,
how about reparation at the abshaft only, I'm.
Speaker 1 (43:42):
Going to arrest you a little here, We got sixty seconds.
How can we help? What do you want to leave
us with? Lawrence Grandprix, So go.
Speaker 2 (43:49):
To our website Lbsfaltimore dot com. We produce the podcast,
research documents and analysis that explain our perspective. One thing
we'd love if you are in the state that's going
a legalized cannabis. We have reparation to the War on
Drugs Plan that we think is basically like a starter
kit or a build out for potential more expansive reparations policy.
(44:09):
It's not either or so. If you're in Pennsylvania and
North Carolina Virginias they still legalizing, please hit us out
and check us out on YouTube. We're on the Black
Liberation YouTube media network. There two podcasts in Search of
Black Power and political Commentary Corner, so check those out
and if you want to contact us, look us up
on LBS Baltimore on any social media site.
Speaker 1 (44:30):
Thank you so much. I really appreciate the conversation and
the great work you guys are doing. Lawrence Grand Prix,
leaders of a beautiful struggle.
Speaker 2 (44:38):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (44:39):
We'll be hearing from afrocentric comedic scholar Ostra Quasi. It's
a blockbuster conversation that's next on KBLA Talk fifteen eighty
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