November 25, 2024 • 46 mins
Dave Rutherford has been a Navy SEAL, a contractor for Blackwater and the CIA, and performance coach. In this episode, he shares insights and strategies for pursuing excellence and overcoming fear in high-pressure environments.
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Episode Transcript
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Ryan (00:10):
Hi, welcome to this episode of the First Trust ROI
podcast.
I'm Ryan Isakainen, etfstrategist at First Trust.
Well, today I'm excited to bejoined by Dave Rutherford.
Dave is a Navy SEAL.
He was a contractor forBlackwater.
He was also a CIA contractorand he is a world SEAL.
He was a contractor forBlackwater, he was also a CIA
contractor and he is a worldchampion performance coach.
That's what he does at FirstTrust.
(00:31):
He works with our practicemanagement team and he helps
financial professionals thriveand flourish and reach their
potential.
He talks about what's holdingthem back.
I'm very much looking forwardto this conversation with Dave
Rutherford.
I hope you enjoy it as well.
So thank you for joining us onthe podcast.
Dave (00:47):
Dave Rutherford.
Thank you.
Ryan (00:49):
Ryan for having me Navy SEAL performance coach we have
him here at First Trust as welland also podcaster, so I'm going
to have to ask you for someadvice.
Dave (00:58):
You were sharing with me before we started 500-some
episodes yeah.
Yeah, I started in 2013 with ashow called navy seal radio and
originally the idea was it wasright.
When online broadcasting wasgetting its start, there was an
old platform calledblogtalkradiocom and they had
all the the the software builtin.
(01:20):
So I had to do sign up.
I did a sat Saturday morninglive show.
Uh, after and that was 2013, by2015, I had amassed about 2
million downloads in in theinfancy of podcasting.
And then in 2000,.
End of 2015, I was approachedby my friend, marcus Luttrell,
the lone survivor, and he saidhey, ron, you know, I know
(01:43):
you've been doing a show for acouple of years.
I love it.
Do you want to do a showtogether?
And you know, when you getsomebody that has that name
recognition and is in the,marcus I know is a lot different
than the Marcus.
You know, people knew from themovie and the book and the
speaking, and I knew what kindof guy he was, how much fun he
was, and so I jumped at thepossibility.
(02:06):
So we started the Team NeverQuit podcast in June of 2016.
By the end of 2016, apple ratedus as one of the top 30
podcasts of the year.
In just six months I left.
About three years later we hadamassed just over 25 million
downloads and that show is stillgoing to this day.
(02:29):
I think they're over 100million downloads total.
I was a part of the first 108episodes and then when I left,
that I relaunched.
Mine called the frog logicpodcast now and I've done uh
jeez, I don't even know.
I think I'm at a 70 some oddshows and I think all in all
(02:51):
round coming up around maybefive million downloads or
something like that.
Ryan (02:56):
Yeah, so I'm gonna ride your coattails I'm all about.
Dave (03:02):
I love what you're doing, ryan.
I think you know podcasts inthis space are challenging.
I've done since I've been withFirst Trust I've probably done
five or six advisor-based shows.
It's a tough, it's a nuanced,deliverable, and I think you
know when.
But the way you're doing it isso target, rich, that it's going
(03:24):
to generate a lot of people'spaying attention to us.
And for me, the greatest thingcoming on board with First Trust
especially with the clout thatBrian has and the magnitude with
which the Monday MorningOutlook is distributed and you
know this the framework forframework for our audience is
(03:46):
there and it's so awesome to seethat you're converting it into
this media space which is, youknow, the biggest in the world
now.
Ryan (03:53):
I appreciate it.
Yeah, I mean, when we startedthis just over a year ago I
figured, you know, some peoplewould watch it.
But even if no one did, I gotto have interesting
conversations.
Dave (04:03):
And that's the best thing about podcasts, isn't it?
Ryan (04:06):
yeah, for sure okay, so you mentioned frog logic.
Um, I have no idea what thatmeans.
Dave (04:11):
Tell me uh, in 2005 I was working for blackwater at the
time and I was an internationalcurriculum and training
specialist, so I would go overto foreign countries and train
their commandos how to be bettercommandos and I was, you know
it was a small group that weredoing this.
I spent a lot of time inAzerbaijan and then, in the fall
(04:35):
of 05, I went back toAfghanistan and was working on a
counter drug, training thecounter drug commandos and then
mentoring them on missions.
And on the way out the doorthey're like're like, hey, can
you run a building project inafghanistan?
I was like sure, why not?
I've never done it before.
So that was cool.
But it was in that space where,um, on a mission up in the
(04:56):
north area, we were going totake down a pretty sizable
distributor of opium.
Um, a pretty sizabledistributor of opium, and to
give you an idea of the size andscale of what Afghanistan was
producing around the world, in2005, they produced about $200
million worth of raw opium intoEurope alone and that came all
(05:20):
out of Afghanistan acrossUzbekistan, up into the Caucasus
and down into Europe, and sothat's a monster amount of
illicit drugs.
And I remember we hit thiscompound.
And when you go into an Afghancompound it's really fascinating
.
There'll be, you know, 10 adultmales, there'll be, you know,
(05:43):
roughly around 12 to 15 women,and then you know 30 kids.
And so, entering into thecompound, we'd done our thing,
everybody was dialed in, and Ilook over and I see these
children and if you've ever beento a third world country, it's
one of the most powerful things,that that jolts you to your
(06:05):
core when you see children thatare truly impoverished, when
they have hunger challenges,they're malnutritious, they're
in societies that are rooted inkind of a cultural dynamic of
eye for an eye, a culturaldynamic of eye for an eye.
And it's, you know, like inAfghanistan, which I consider
(06:27):
probably the worst challenge tobe a child right is, you've got
you know.
By the time you're a13-year-old teenage girl.
You're essentially just areceptacle for procreation.
Young boys are beaten regularly.
They're also used for sexualpleasures as well, too.
These tribes war with eachother.
(06:48):
Girls can't go to school.
The towel ban just came out,and that's a whole other thing.
We're still paying them $40million a week to towel ban.
My best friend, sean Ryan,who's got one of the biggest
podcasts in the world, brokethat story this past summer that
we're still paying the Taliban.
We're actually paying fees toall the guys that were martyred,
(07:12):
killing our friends.
We're still paying theirfamilies and fees because they
were martyred.
So think about that for asecond.
Well, anyways, so you know, Isee these kids.
And my first trip to Afghanistan, when I was with SEAL Team One
back in 2002, I had cultivated ahate, obviously, for that
(07:33):
sensation of 9-11 and wantingrevenge.
That hate almost destroyed me.
So the second trip, I was likeman, I really want to understand
the culture, I want tounderstand the people.
I want to.
So I went on this.
You know, I read probably about10 books about afghanistan, the
history of afghanistan, thepeople, the different tribes.
I worked extensively, I was theintel rep for for this group
(07:54):
and and and going into thiscompound seeing those kids with
nothing.
And it hit me and it was likemy God, why, why can't we figure
out how to inspire thosechildren with even a sliver of
hope that there's a way toevolve out of this draconian
(08:15):
culture?
And I, I, you know, I was amedic.
So I started looking at doctorswithout borders, I looked at
USAID, I looked at a bunch ofnonprofits that I could take my
security skills, my medicalskills and I could get access to
warm tour countries andchildren, and I wanted to figure
out how to help them.
(08:36):
Unfortunately, it's justnonprofits, overseas and former
special operations guys, kind ofbutt heads on how they run
things, uh, and I've actuallylost a couple teammates on
rescue missions as a result ofthat type of of security though
I don't want to call itlackadaisical, but they put
(08:58):
their mission ahead of securitya lot of times and it gets them
into troubles, and so I didn'twork out.
But when I came home I was likewell, you know, I started to
notice, if you look atstatistically, at some of the
behavioral health stuff withkids in America, in particular
the last four years, it's we'rein a we're in a nightmare
scenario with that.
But back in 2006, I started tofind statistics that were
(09:24):
frightening to kids, inparticular kids in that 10 to 15
year age, and I said you knowwhat, after a particular article
from a couple of psychologistsfrom Harvard who had coined this
phrase internet withdrawalsyndrome I said which is
essentially the de-socializationof our youth, right, because
(09:45):
you're hyper-connected, you'reintegrated in your device
constantly, your socializationskills plummet and that's what
is causing just a skyrocketingin anxiety, depression and all
the other mental healthchallenges I think our kids are
facing.
I mean hell.
Two years ago, girls' teenagesuicide increased by 50%.
(10:05):
That's a staggering number thatI don't think enough people are
wrapping their minds around.
So I wanted to go help kids inthat transitional process of
where identity begins to emerge.
So I was like, okay, well, whatcan I utilize from my past as a
division one athlete, as a seal,as an instructor, you know, as
(10:28):
you know, working for black,what can I extrapolate and teach
kids?
And so what I came up with,with, this concept called frog
logic and frog is me payingtribute to the, the frogmen of
the navy.
Back in world war ii.
That's what they called theunderwater demolition teams
because essentially they'd gointo combat scenarios with you
(10:48):
know a dive knife, you know oneof those horrible circular masks
and some you know two by foursof spins and like 50 pounds of
tnt, and they would drop theseguys five miles off the atolls.
They'd swim in, blow up thereefs.
So all those landing crafts, sothey called them the frogmen of
the navy.
And so I wanted to pay tributeto that mindset that, no matter
(11:09):
what mission is in front of them, they're going to get it done.
And then, obviously, the logicthat goes behind that, right,
the mindset stuff.
And so I created my firstprogram within frog logic, which
was teaching people how toforge self-confidence, because I
believe self-confidence is oneof the core root ideas of human
(11:29):
performance.
Because when you think about itand I think about it in
particular, that's what I dowhen I go out on the road with
our wholesalers you know theseguys are under this unbelievable
pressure to perform.
Obviously, you know that's thebeauty and the challenge of
first trust.
There is this immeasurablepressure that's everybody
(11:49):
willing, they want it, they'repart of it.
And it's funny, I was just, youknow, down with a bunch of guys
on the beach this morning, as Ido every you know end of the
year event and mid-year eventand get a little fellowship
going, get a little beat downsession in the ocean and on the
beach and and, uh, you know, oneof the things is is talking
about is is managing thatpressure through that
(12:09):
recognition that your, yourself-confidence is malleable.
Right, if you take enough no'severy day, that's going to start
to uh flip and thatintrospection can become jaded
with what I call the negativeinsurgency right, that constant
attack pulling down thestructure of your ability.
(12:30):
And so I developed this, youknow, eight missions of really
teaching guys, young, kids, howto forge that self-confidence in
this growth of identity.
And so that began, the FrogLogic concepts.
Well, that was a long-windedstory for that, sorry, I do have
a tendency to rave.
Ryan (12:48):
No, that was all wonderful .
I've got about 700 follow-upquestions that go down different
rabbit holes there, but youwere talking about performance
coaching and it made me thinklike, what is it that I do
typically, that when I fallshort of the goals that I want
to achieve, is there?
Is there one or two things thatyou think most of us maybe fail
(13:10):
to do or that we were notthinking about in the right way?
Dave (13:13):
A hundred percent.
A hundred percent and it's youknow my performance coaching
career really made a shift.
So I I you know after, after Istarted FrogLogic in in in 2006,
I've talked to about 7 000 kidsin north america from 2006 to
2008.
And then, uh, when the economycollapsed, I got recruited to go
(13:35):
work for the centralintelligence agency and so for
two years trained, was aninstructor, teaching case
officers.
Then for two years I deployedif you ever saw the movie 13
Hours the Secret Soldiers ofBenghazi that's what I did for
two years.
And when I left there, I iswhen I started professionally
speaking, and I started in ourindustry.
(13:56):
A friend I'd gone throughtraining was a wholesaler at a
competitor not really acompetitor, but a different
company and he brought me in andI did 30 events and so that
launched it.
But the next year, 2013, becauseI had a very strong presence on
the internet at that time,because I really understood SEO
marketing early, I understoodYouTube, I understood social
(14:16):
media and then, obviously, withthe podcast, really helped boost
me up a lot, and so I wasapproached by the Miami Dolphins
to come in and work with therookies and so in 2013, I
started working withprofessional athletes and then
started to work with collegiateathletes and then individual
from UFC fighters.
I worked with the United StatesTennis Association for three
(14:39):
years.
I guess my pinnacle year was2018.
I helped the Oregon StateBeavers win a collegiate World
Series championship in my secondyear with them and then in my
third year with the Boston RedSox.
We won a World Serieschampionship there.
So you know, I never imaginedI'd be a performance coach, ever
.
I just didn't see how I couldtranslate the ideas of being a
(15:05):
SEAL instructor, being aBlackwater instructor, being a
CIA instructor, into civiliansand their, you know, whether
it's athletes or business orbusiness owners.
I just didn't have thatcapacity.
But then I started tore-evaluate the core concepts
within our, I think, within howyou learn how to be an operator,
(15:31):
and so those four core things,I think translate across any
spectrum of performance.
So, number one you have to beable to embrace fear.
Right, there's no such thing asbeing fearless.
It's, it's a complete falsehood.
Right, we are, we're wired forfear through our limbic systems.
We're taught fear from day one.
Um, it's just, it's, it's sointegrated.
(15:52):
Out of the, out of eight coreemotions, it's the most
substantial emotion we have todeal with on a day in and day
out.
It never goes away, right.
So, but the thing that peopledon't do is they don't address
their fears, they don't reallyknow what they're afraid of and
they, more importantly, theydon't know how fear alters
perspective.
Right, it restructures yourperceptions.
(16:14):
That's what fear does.
And and through the lens I I tryand simplify it, it's through
the lens of pain, right, when wefeel a pain impulse, or
internally or externally, weimmediately begin to shift how
we kind of integrate with thatpain point.
And and that's where fear isjust spark.
(16:35):
And if you're, if you're, ifyou're so afraid of something,
man, it owns you, it causesparalysis, as causes are an
inability to think clearly, andall the way down on a physical
level, right, if your heartrates at 185, you can't even
think.
Right, right, has all theseother effects of physiologically
.
So, learning how to embraceyour fear as a tool, and that's
(16:59):
one of the, that's the, thefirst in a very linear approach
to this performance, uh, theseconcepts within the frog logic
concept.
So, first, embrace your.
Second, forging self-confidenceright, really understanding how
your self-confidence takes a hitas you go through those
plateaus of pain.
Right, because every time youlike I'm cooking it, I'm
(17:20):
crushing it, I'm doing great,I'm number one on the chart,
right, I'm killing it, you know.
And then all of a sudden youhave a horrible quarter.
You've dropped down 12 points.
You know, you're getting thecalls from your managers, right,
like hey, you, all right,what's going on?
Your self-confidence is shaky,so you have to be able to
(17:41):
recognize that.
All right, how do Irehabilitate self-confidence?
And that's the second one.
The third one is know how to bea good team member and know how
to be a good teammate.
Right, because there's twodifferent things.
One you come in you don't knowa lot.
It's being able to take orders,follow direction, learn on the
(18:01):
fly.
And then the next is whenyou're an actual integrated
member of that team, like thepods that we use.
Each one of those guys has anexpertise that they put forth,
but they do it where they allintegrate those expertise at a
high level, and that's calledwhat I call living the team life
, and it's a comprehensiverecognition that all success is
(18:22):
a derivative of teams.
Period, end of sentence.
And I've worked with you know,ufc fighters, former world
champion.
I've worked with you know, likeI said, you know my third year
with the Red Sox.
I worked with Mookie Betts thatyear.
That was my main focus thatyear.
So you see these people at thehighest level of performance,
but it's the people around themconstantly, right, that are.
(18:44):
You're tapping into the, youknow, your manager or your
economics team, or us and theadvisor consulting group.
Right, it's me in the car with aguy, a wholesaler, that's been
struggling for a few months andlike, all right, let's break it
down.
Right, let's look through allthese things.
(19:04):
What are you afraid of?
How's your self-confidence,how's your team look?
And then the biggest one, themore higher one, is to be able
to live with purpose.
Because ultimately, what If youdon't have a definitive purpose
in your life?
Life is forcing you in thedirections that it wants to take
(19:25):
you, and I think a lot ofpeople in particular that live
in a perpetual state of fearallow life to mandate where they
go.
But, more, more importantly, itseems to mute potential, right,
but if you have a clear purpose,right when I, when I was that
you know 23 year old kid, youknow who left penn state and
(19:46):
joined the navy man, I hadfinally had a purpose.
And and when I made it throughtraining, the purpose got more
dialed in when I finally got my.
The purpose got more dialed inwhen I finally got my trident,
it got more dialed in.
And as I've grown and matured,and in particular now with my
children I have four daughters,my wife, man I know specifically
(20:07):
what my purpose is and how toexecute on it.
So those are the fundamentals.
If you can evaluate yourselfacross that plane and see where
you, what your performance like,you overlay those on the
specificity of performance right, and I think that that's been
the the thing that makes a lotof sense with the people that
I've worked with.
(20:27):
As well as it, it enables me tobe able to deliver that message
to you.
You know a giant LPL conferenceor one-on-one with an advisor
that's trying to take it toanother level.
Ryan (20:41):
Yeah, yeah, those four things definitely ring true.
It seems to me that they're allinterrelated, but is there one
in particular that you thinkpeople struggle with the most
here?
Dave (20:52):
hands down?
Absolutely.
It's crazy, right?
The number one question I usedto get all the time not so much
as I've gotten a little older,but was, were you afraid?
And to me it seems like wait.
Is that a real question?
Are you honestly asking me?
I'm submerged in 58 degreefreezing cold water for you know
(21:16):
, for 90 hours straight.
And how we went?
hell yeah I was afraid I wasafraid every single second.
And and then when I, when Ileft the agency, it was that
that that question were youafraid in combat, were you
afraid here?
And I used to be almost annoyedat it, and I was annoyed at it
because I was afraid to answerit.
(21:37):
It's such an intimate question,right.
There's no greater intimacythan what you're afraid of,
right?
Think about all the times you'vebeen in your greatest hardship,
your greatest challenge, andyou're struggling, you're not
doing well, and someone comes uphey, ryan, are you all right?
Man, what's the first thing?
I'm fine, I'm good.
Why?
Because you don't want toexpose that you're not fine,
(22:05):
that you're not sure, you don'tknow if you're going to be
successful.
So I think fear is the key andpart of the seminar that I teach
on embracing fear.
You know, mission number one isto search for the truth of your
fear, and then step one in thatis to write down all of your
fears that you've, all the fearsyou had as a child, young man,
all your fears right now andthen all your fears in the
future.
Have you ever done that before?
I don't think I have, and I'llbe in front of 500 people.
(22:28):
I'll ask that question and Imight get one person in the
entire audience who said they'vedone it, and usually those
people are in a 12 program.
They're doing deep, deep divepsychologically with a
psychologist or psychiatrist, orthey did it in some, like you
know, philosophy class incollege, but that's it.
But the overwhelming majority ofpeople have no idea what
(22:49):
they're actually afraid of andthen, more importantly, how it
impacts performance Interestingand I think you know that
emotion of fear definitely playsinto the investment industry as
a strategist or portfoliomanager or financial advisor, it
doesn't really matter.
The number one thing I hear andlast year I think I was in front
of a little over 4,000 advisors, right, 30 different states.
(23:13):
The year before it was 4,000advisors, right, 30 different
states.
The year before it's 4,500advisors.
And I'm obviously not talkingone-on-one, but I have a lot of
one-on-one conversations outthere and the thing I hear most
is man, I'm doing more coaching,emotional coaching with my
clients than I've ever evenimagined I would have to do, and
(23:35):
they all laugh when I talk.
You know how often do you haveto talk your clients off the
ledge and especially in thevolatility that we've seen,
covid, through COVID, what we'redealing with around the world,
and you know the way the marketsare.
I mean, if you look at theMagnificent Seven and one day
they gain a trillion dollars inmarket share, the next day
they're down $800 billion andit's like how do you keep that
(24:01):
client of yours in that safespace of confidence and trust?
By mitigating the fear.
So it's understanding on apsychological level what drives
fear.
Ryan (24:15):
Yeah, it seems like there's plenty that people could
be fearful of as they lookaround the world.
Dave (24:20):
Every day, all day.
Ryan (24:22):
Yeah, there's so much unknown and I think we're at a
point in time where there's somuch unknown.
But we also get little blipsand snapshots on Twitter or X
and you know.
So we know little bits of astory and then we find out other
little bits and it's reallytough to to manage the narrative
, what the narrative actually isright.
Dave (24:42):
You're attached to that a hundred percent and that's
something you know.
I think I, I'm, I'm luckybecause of the, the work I've
done in my past, I I understandhow to aggregate content and
information and, yeah, and knowhow to extrapolate the threads
that coalesce the grandernarrative and then also the
(25:03):
threads that deconstruct thatgrander narrative in a more
meaningful way.
I will say we're in acataclysmic shift in terms of
content delivery nowadays.
Whereas before you had very fewoutlets that drove the
narratives, well, x hasliterally dropped an atomic bomb
in the middle of that narrative.
(25:24):
And so now, all of a sudden andthat's why, when you look at
their growth rate over the sinceelon musk bought it, it's it's
the number one news organizationin the world, the deliver of
news.
It's now they're having more.
It's the number one apporganization in the world, the
deliverer of news.
Now they're having more.
It's the number one growing appon the App Store
internationally, around theworld.
It's the place people are goingto post genuine,
well-thought-out content.
(25:44):
And now, with the advent ofindependent journalists, if you
will, people that don't careabout the aggregate in there,
but they're out there trying todeliver real information in real
time, you're seeing this, forlack of a better term.
(26:06):
A lot of people are waking upto maybe some greater truths
that they once didn't know, andthat generates fear, too.
Ryan (26:15):
Yeah truths that they once didn't know, and that generates
fear too.
Yeah, yeah.
Before, when you were talkingabout the path to frog logic,
you mentioned some of theanxiety that you know.
I don't know if anxiety andfear are the same thing.
Dave (26:25):
They're in the same realm.
Ryan (26:27):
But there was a book that I read recently called the
Anxious Generation by JonathanHaidt.
Dave (26:32):
I'm listening to it right now, about halfway through it,
yeah.
Ryan (26:40):
I think anyone who's got kids that are teenagers, that
are, you know, dealing withtheir smartphones and their
social media and and all of theanxiety that creates um, really
need to read that book.
Dave (26:46):
Well, kids hell, man, I feel it.
I mean I get on right.
You know I'm, I'm on Sunday.
Uh, you know I wake up, I havemy cup of coffee, I go through
my feed.
Now all of a sudden I just seeformer President Trump gets shot
again.
Or guys on the golf course whodidn't get shot at, they shot at
him.
I don't want to misquoteanything there, but immediately
(27:10):
I'm pegged.
I think any American is like, ohmy God, a second potential
assassin.
Where are we at?
What does this mean for themarkets?
How does it?
You know, it's just, itcompounds itself and I think,
when you look at what thepandemic did, it reset the
framework of our society inparticular, but I think globally
(27:30):
as well.
Many countries didn't have thesame effect right as others, but
certainly it was a global shiftin consciousness, in particular
through fear, through the lensof oh my God, if I step out my
door I'm going to catchsomething that's going to kill
me, my family, my friends, my,you know, and I think you know
(27:52):
we're still recovering from that.
That shift in consciousness,yeah.
Ryan (27:56):
It seems like there's also , as a result of that, maybe a
lack of trust in some of theinstitutions that people used to
say you know, I 100% trust thisgovernment agency, but now I'm
not so sure I can trust them,and I think that's probably
global as well.
Dave (28:11):
Oh, there's no doubt it's interesting Once you start to
find those journalists that arein everybody's bias just put
that out there for sure, are ineverybody's bias I just put that
out there for sure, and so.
But you watch somebody that'svery focused on delivering.
You know as close to the truthas they can get.
You're seeing that there's thisworry, this perpetual state of
(28:36):
worry.
That's out there and it isglobal for sure.
I mean, when you have thenordstrom pipeline getting blown
up, you know you can telleurope and its energy market is
going to freak out, right, uh,if you look at uh, uh, I mean
it's just you can go all acrossthose markets and everywhere and
how they reacted and what'staking place.
(28:56):
But I think what, what?
Going back to that originalfrog logic and that core
understanding of fear, if youunderstand how fear affects you,
you can actually be able toaddress it in a much more
fundamental way than justletting the effects of that
(29:16):
compounding fear build on you towhere your performance just
starts to come off.
Ryan (29:22):
Okay, we're going to shift gears a little bit.
You've been all over the world,right, yeah, but nowhere fun.
Dave (29:29):
I don't have all these friends and they're like, oh man
, we just got back from Europe,or we went to South Africa or in
here, and they're like, where'sthe best place you've been?
I'm like, uh, spin bulldogAfghanistan.
Ryan (29:40):
Where's the best place you've been?
I'm like, uh, spin BulldogAfghanistan Outside the US.
What's the internationallocation that you think is
unique and you've enjoyed themost?
Dave (29:50):
I mean, obviously, afghanistan is where I spent
most of my time operationally.
It is really this unique spacein the world.
When you understand the historyof it, you understand the Silk
Route, you understand, you knowtranscontinental commerce from
ancient China into the.
(30:11):
You know the step of Iran itwasn't Iran back then, but and
you think about the magnitude ofthat.
And then you also think aboutthe fact that Britain, its back
was broken in Afghanistan,russia's back was broken.
Now ours back was broken inAfghanistan.
It's just there's some I don'teven know what it is.
(30:33):
It's almost like that SaudiLawrence of Arabia feel right.
It's that there's this mystique, this mythological aspect of
afghanistan.
And you know, I remember when Iwas, when I was doing this
building project for blackwater,I would get in, you know, this
old, 50 year old russianhelicopter that lockheed martin
(30:54):
had bought, and we had this oneguy, this old tajik pilot, that
was flying.
This guy had something likealmost 30,000 hours on this
machine, on this helicopter,which is a staggering amount of
flight time, and he would comeout and he'd wear his flip-flops
and a cigarette, you know, andhe'd just sit there and his
pants rolled up and I'd get inthe back with my kit and it was
(31:15):
just me, and we'd get in thishelicopter and we'd fly 1,000
feet above the top.
I'd go from down in Gardez overto Herat, which is on the border
of Iran, back up north intoKabul.
And here I am sitting.
I'll never forget the cooleststory ever.
You remember Bamanye, the placewhere they had those ancient
Buddhist statues carved into theside of the mountain there and
(31:37):
the Taliban blew those up.
Well, I remember sittingthere's an airstrip right there
those ancient buddha statuescarved into the side of the of
the mountain there and thetalban blew those up.
Well, I remember sitting there'san airstrip right there and
it's where you refill, and I'msitting on the airstrip, I've
got a heater in, I've got my youknow my, my cheap ak and I'm in
my kid and it's just me andthis tajik pilot and his you
know his flunky buddy that justgets in so he doesn't pass out.
(32:00):
I guess I don't know what hedoes and I'm sitting there and
I'm looking around at thesestatues and I'm thinking to
myself wow, my life is prettyfascinating right now and I hope
I can take whatever I'mlearning right now and apply it
in a good way.
So, afghanistan, although it isprobably one of the most
(32:21):
war-torn countries in in all ofthe world, there's this
mythological uh allure for me inthat place and it's also an
incredibly beautiful country too.
Yeah, so when you think abouthome um you're, you live in
texas south florida, south yeahsouth texas man, I want so bad,
but my wife, she's from Maineand I can't convince her to go
(32:45):
to Texas.
Ryan (32:46):
So what do you think is different about the US in
comparison to the other places?
I mean Afghanistan.
Obviously there's starkdifferences, but there's
probably some similarities.
But what do you think makes theUS such a different place in
comparison to other parts of theworld?
Dave (33:00):
The ability that we all have a constitutional right, a
God-given right, to speak ourminds.
There's no greater, moreimportant thing on the planet
than the ability to have freespeech.
Nothing, everything, pales incomparison.
No matter where I went aroundthe world, there was always a
(33:21):
restraint of free and openspeech, and that was
operationally or or an otherwisetoo.
I mean some countries,obviously, that you can speak
your mind.
But I mean, look at some of thestuff that's taking place in
Europe right now.
There are people that aregetting two year jail terms
because they're speaking outagainst a particular, uh,
something going on within thegovernment, right, and so
they're speaking out against aparticular something going on
(33:42):
within the government, right,and so they're they're speaking
out and they're doing jail time,right.
Even look at down in brazil andbrazil, uh and the, the, the
head of the supreme court downthere taking x out of the
country and then also makingstarlink out of the country, so,
and it was supposedly like 34million Brazilians were on X.
(34:04):
Now, when you look at their lastelection and what took place
with Bolsonaro and Lula, I meanthat is one of the most
significant things that tookplace in the last four years,
five years, geopolitically, tonot have a free and open place
to speak your mind in Brazil.
(34:24):
That's a catastrophic potentialproblem.
And when you look at the hyperincrease of socialism and, in
some contexts, actual Marxismand communism sweeping through
South America right now, that'sa big deal.
So when you look at America, ineffect, although there's a lot
of people out there who canargue that potentially those
(34:47):
liberties are fading, andthere's a vast array of people
that are advocating against it,right, and they use terms like
hate speech, or they use termslike misinformation,
disinformation then my personalfavorite is malinformation,
which is true information, butit's whatever party doesn't like
(35:07):
it, it's bad, it's bad, right,and I think that's what really
makes America so exceptional,and it's what makes First Trust
so exceptional too, that JimBowen is a profound advocate for
free speech and speaking hismind and not being afraid to
talk about the way he looks atthe other most awesome part
(35:30):
about America, which is ourcapitalistic society.
I mean, you put those twotogether and what have you done?
You've created the mostsignificant influence of
generating wealth that the worldhas ever known, and so that,
for me, is the most beautifulaspect of what our country
(35:52):
represents that right to speakyour mind.
Ryan (35:55):
Yeah, it seems like, in particular, political discourse
is something that people shyaway from.
They're afraid because theydon't want to have conflict.
I don't know if that's relatedto their, you know, running from
the fear of breakingrelationships or something like
that, but it seems like, youknow, the founding fathers all
battled it out.
They had different ideas andthey weren't afraid to, you know
(36:16):
, have conflict and work throughproblems, and it seems like
that'd be a good idea.
It's the ultimate idea.
Dave (36:23):
It's the thing that keeps the structure of the
Constitution intact, right, andwithout that it's worthless
piece of paper.
And when you hear certainperiodicals putting out opinion
pieces on their opinion pagethat do we really need the
Constitution, is it really thatimportant?
(36:44):
You think to your mind and gohey man, do you have any idea
what took place in Romania orCzechoslovakia after World War
II?
Do you have any idea of thecarnage that communism did?
And your inability to speakyour mind, I mean people can't
fathom it, because I thinkobviously we take it for granted
(37:05):
to a certain degree.
Ryan (37:07):
But if you lose the ability to call out that which
is evil, if you will, or thatwhich is untruthful, or these
narratives, if you don't havethat, then you don't have a
society that can functionproperly, because then tyranny
emerges and the next thing youknow you're staring at whatever
particular, you know tyrannicalideology is going to destroy
(37:27):
your way of life right and and Ithink the way to get to truth
is actually to have even if it'ssome wild conspiracy theory, if
you don't, if you're notallowed to address that and have
two sides actually say no wait,this is actually what's going
on, and I think the ability toactually have that discourse is
how you get to truth.
Dave (37:49):
A hundred percent.
There was just a gentleman whowent on, probably the guy who
has the biggest, second biggest.
He goes back and forth withanother guy out there and this
guy's one of the top historiansI've ever heard.
I mean he's absolutelybrilliant, I mean he is, it is.
I've never heard a persondeliver history better than this
guy.
So he goes on there and theyget into this discussion
(38:11):
randomly about world war ii andhe makes a comment about, about
winston churchill and andpotentially that churchill, you
know, could have done somethings differently that maybe
would have avoided 65, 70million people being annihilated
in World War II.
That interview blew up and theway that those two people in
(38:34):
particular, this poor historianis just a historian.
He's not a personality, he'snot a pundit, he's not
advocating one way or the otherand he actually you know he
creates the caveat for thestatement before he says it.
You know he's like this mightbe hyperbole, but you know he
was attacked from around theworld and there were calls for
(38:54):
him to be arrested in certainareas or and there were death
threats.
He got death threats from this,and so when we lose the ability
to put an idea on the table andhave all of us bring forth that
God-given right of evaluationand critical thinking and the
ability to make a poignantargument one way or the other,
(39:18):
from two other directions youcan't even think about.
That's how creativity emerges,that's how society stay intact,
that's how debate flourishes.
And you're right, people havebeen afraid.
I think you know, I, I I was adirect uh, um, uh what do you
call it?
Recipient of cancel culture, um, leading into the 2020
(39:41):
elections.
I was essentially locked out ofFacebook and Instagram.
My YouTube channel wasthrottled.
Several other platformsessentially throttled me as well
, and I lost access to about125,000 followers, and that
devastated my business.
(40:01):
I mean, I absolutely collapsedit.
And here's the thing I never waspolitical.
I never was advocating one sideof the other.
I'm a motivational guy.
I'm like, hey, let's figure outhow to work through this.
But there was one post on onething that someone got on.
They bombarded Facebook and Iimmediately locked me out and I
(40:21):
sent over 300 requests saying,hey, what did I do wrong?
Because this was back when thecensorship industrial complex
was just getting ramped up, andthat's a fascinating thing If
you really want to understandthat.
There's some brilliant peopleout there Michael Schellenberger
, brilliant journalist, as wellas a guy named Mike Benz, are
(40:43):
doing yeoman's work ondescribing how significant this
is and how it interacts with ourforeign policy and domestic
policy as well.
So you know, when you have thepotential to lose your business,
that generates fear, or youhave a potential to lose your
status in your community or yoursociety, because you have a
potential to lose your status inyou and your community or your
society because you have aparticular belief system, man,
(41:05):
that that, what does that do?
It makes you afraid.
Fear comes, and then it justgenerates.
And now, all of a sudden,you're having to live this
disingenuous life to cultivatewhat you think society wants you
to be, and now that causesmassive mental health challenges
for people.
So you know, I'm absolutely.
The number one thing that makesAmerica is what it is is our
(41:29):
ability to free speech.
Ryan (41:30):
Yeah.
So I am at heart an optimist,maybe sometimes too much of an
optimist, yeah.
But you know, I think you haveto look at things as clearly as
possible and maybe allowyourself to not be cynical but
to be an optimist.
Is there anything in particularthat makes you optimistic?
Dave (41:47):
Yeah, I do Is our resilience as a nation.
I mean, when you think aboutthe Revolutionary War, you know,
you think about all thedifferent battles and conflicts
in between there, think aboutall the different battles and
conflicts in between there.
The civil war, I mean the civilwar was.
I mean most countries do notrecover from civil wars, they
(42:10):
just don't do it.
Um, obviously you look at theturn of the century world war
one, world war two, I mean worldwar two was this catastrophic,
the most catastrophic event inhuman history, and we were our
ideals, our vision, our morals,the concept of America was able
to fight through the treacheryof Nazi fascism and then leading
(42:34):
into the 80-year, or, what wasit, 60-year, cold War with
communism, war with communism.
I mean this is substantial,substantial challenges that we
have had to face over and overand over over, over really long
periods of time.
But we keep coming back, wekeep adapting, we keep evolving
(42:55):
and you know, granted, yes,there are some things that we're
not necessarily doing at thehighest way we would like, and I
think that little bit of lackof confidence in certain
institutions is shaking people.
But again, that's why I lovefirst trust, right.
What do we do?
We bring the data to the plate,right.
(43:16):
We bring the data to thediscussion, and when you listen
to Strider or you listen to anyone of our economists you know
Andrew or Brian you know theyalways say, hey, man, look at
the data.
Yeah, all of this is going on,but we're still doing really
well comparative to the rest ofthe world.
So you know, I can befatalistic in terms of my
(43:39):
foreign policy analysis.
Don't get me started on Ukraineand Israel and Iran and all
that, but.
But I think, at the end of theday, america itself is built on
this core competency ofresilience, and that's something
that you have to take heart to.
Okay.
Ryan (43:55):
Yeah, one more question for you, dave.
At the end of all of mypodcasts, I generally ask people
what they're reading.
We already talked about theAnxious Generation, but are
there any books on the DaveRutherford book list that you
either are going to read or haveread recently that you'd
recommend?
Dave (44:14):
Yeah, so I just finished a book called Kudatah so it's
it's coup d'etat by edward andlutwick.
Um, I'm reading, rereading aspace called the rape of the
mind by a psychologist named uhyost mirlu.
Um, I'm reading a book calledthe history of religious ideas,
(44:36):
volume one, and then the the onethat I kind of do for fun is uh
, uh, on the psychology ofmilitary incompetence.
Okay, those all sound likefascinating reads yeah, I people
ask me do you ever read forjust pleasure?
And and I did have a friendrecently, uh, buddy of mine,
(44:58):
graham, wonderful guy guy, he'sfrom Scotland and he introduced
me to this wonderful book aboutwhat was it?
Shackelford and the expeditiondown to.
Antarctica.
That's right.
So you know, when I can't focuson coup d'etats or, you know,
(45:20):
tyrannical regimes, I'll listento that struggle and it's just,
it's pretty inspiring.
Ryan (45:26):
Yeah, all right.
Well, thank you for coming onthe podcast.
This has been a greatconversation and I have, like
you know, 30, 40 more questions,but we're running out of time,
so I hope I can have you onagain.
Dave (45:37):
I'd love it, ryan, thank you so much for having me on.
Can have you on again.
I'd love it, ryan, thank you somuch for having me on.
It's an honor.
I've been wanting to come onwith you.
Ryan (45:45):
I just never knew if I was going to cut it, but I'm happy,
glad we worked it out.
Thanks for joining us andthanks to all of you for joining
us on this episode of the FirstTrust ROI podcast.
We'll see you next time, thankyou.
Hi, welcome to this episode of the First Trust ROI
podcast.
I'm Ryan Isakainen, etfstrategist at First Trust.
Well, today I'm excited to bejoined by Dave Rutherford.
Dave is a Navy SEAL.
He was a contractor forBlackwater.
He was also a CIA contractorand he is a world SEAL.
He was a contractor forBlackwater, he was also a CIA
contractor and he is a worldchampion performance coach.
That's what he does at FirstTrust.
(00:31):
He works with our practicemanagement team and he helps
financial professionals thriveand flourish and reach their
potential.
He talks about what's holdingthem back.
I'm very much looking forwardto this conversation with Dave
Rutherford.
I hope you enjoy it as well.
So thank you for joining us onthe podcast.
Dave (00:47):
Dave Rutherford.
Thank you.
Ryan (00:49):
Ryan for having me Navy SEAL performance coach we have
him here at First Trust as welland also podcaster, so I'm going
to have to ask you for someadvice.
Dave (00:58):
You were sharing with me before we started 500-some
episodes yeah.
Yeah, I started in 2013 with ashow called navy seal radio and
originally the idea was it wasright.
When online broadcasting wasgetting its start, there was an
old platform calledblogtalkradiocom and they had
all the the the software builtin.
(01:20):
So I had to do sign up.
I did a sat Saturday morninglive show.
Uh, after and that was 2013, by2015, I had amassed about 2
million downloads in in theinfancy of podcasting.
And then in 2000,.
End of 2015, I was approachedby my friend, marcus Luttrell,
the lone survivor, and he saidhey, ron, you know, I know
(01:43):
you've been doing a show for acouple of years.
I love it.
Do you want to do a showtogether?
And you know, when you getsomebody that has that name
recognition and is in the,marcus I know is a lot different
than the Marcus.
You know, people knew from themovie and the book and the
speaking, and I knew what kindof guy he was, how much fun he
was, and so I jumped at thepossibility.
(02:06):
So we started the Team NeverQuit podcast in June of 2016.
By the end of 2016, apple ratedus as one of the top 30
podcasts of the year.
In just six months I left.
About three years later we hadamassed just over 25 million
downloads and that show is stillgoing to this day.
(02:29):
I think they're over 100million downloads total.
I was a part of the first 108episodes and then when I left,
that I relaunched.
Mine called the frog logicpodcast now and I've done uh
jeez, I don't even know.
I think I'm at a 70 some oddshows and I think all in all
(02:51):
round coming up around maybefive million downloads or
something like that.
Ryan (02:56):
Yeah, so I'm gonna ride your coattails I'm all about.
Dave (03:02):
I love what you're doing, ryan.
I think you know podcasts inthis space are challenging.
I've done since I've been withFirst Trust I've probably done
five or six advisor-based shows.
It's a tough, it's a nuanced,deliverable, and I think you
know when.
But the way you're doing it isso target, rich, that it's going
(03:24):
to generate a lot of people'spaying attention to us.
And for me, the greatest thingcoming on board with First Trust
especially with the clout thatBrian has and the magnitude with
which the Monday MorningOutlook is distributed and you
know this the framework forframework for our audience is
(03:46):
there and it's so awesome to seethat you're converting it into
this media space which is, youknow, the biggest in the world
now.
Ryan (03:53):
I appreciate it.
Yeah, I mean, when we startedthis just over a year ago I
figured, you know, some peoplewould watch it.
But even if no one did, I gotto have interesting
conversations.
Dave (04:03):
And that's the best thing about podcasts, isn't it?
Ryan (04:06):
yeah, for sure okay, so you mentioned frog logic.
Um, I have no idea what thatmeans.
Dave (04:11):
Tell me uh, in 2005 I was working for blackwater at the
time and I was an internationalcurriculum and training
specialist, so I would go overto foreign countries and train
their commandos how to be bettercommandos and I was, you know
it was a small group that weredoing this.
I spent a lot of time inAzerbaijan and then, in the fall
(04:35):
of 05, I went back toAfghanistan and was working on a
counter drug, training thecounter drug commandos and then
mentoring them on missions.
And on the way out the doorthey're like're like, hey, can
you run a building project inafghanistan?
I was like sure, why not?
I've never done it before.
So that was cool.
But it was in that space where,um, on a mission up in the
(04:56):
north area, we were going totake down a pretty sizable
distributor of opium.
Um, a pretty sizabledistributor of opium, and to
give you an idea of the size andscale of what Afghanistan was
producing around the world, in2005, they produced about $200
million worth of raw opium intoEurope alone and that came all
(05:20):
out of Afghanistan acrossUzbekistan, up into the Caucasus
and down into Europe, and sothat's a monster amount of
illicit drugs.
And I remember we hit thiscompound.
And when you go into an Afghancompound it's really fascinating
.
There'll be, you know, 10 adultmales, there'll be, you know,
(05:43):
roughly around 12 to 15 women,and then you know 30 kids.
And so, entering into thecompound, we'd done our thing,
everybody was dialed in, and Ilook over and I see these
children and if you've ever beento a third world country, it's
one of the most powerful things,that that jolts you to your
(06:05):
core when you see children thatare truly impoverished, when
they have hunger challenges,they're malnutritious, they're
in societies that are rooted inkind of a cultural dynamic of
eye for an eye, a culturaldynamic of eye for an eye.
And it's, you know, like inAfghanistan, which I consider
(06:27):
probably the worst challenge tobe a child right is, you've got
you know.
By the time you're a13-year-old teenage girl.
You're essentially just areceptacle for procreation.
Young boys are beaten regularly.
They're also used for sexualpleasures as well, too.
These tribes war with eachother.
(06:48):
Girls can't go to school.
The towel ban just came out,and that's a whole other thing.
We're still paying them $40million a week to towel ban.
My best friend, sean Ryan,who's got one of the biggest
podcasts in the world, brokethat story this past summer that
we're still paying the Taliban.
We're actually paying fees toall the guys that were martyred,
(07:12):
killing our friends.
We're still paying theirfamilies and fees because they
were martyred.
So think about that for asecond.
Well, anyways, so you know, Isee these kids.
And my first trip to Afghanistan, when I was with SEAL Team One
back in 2002, I had cultivated ahate, obviously, for that
(07:33):
sensation of 9-11 and wantingrevenge.
That hate almost destroyed me.
So the second trip, I was likeman, I really want to understand
the culture, I want tounderstand the people.
I want to.
So I went on this.
You know, I read probably about10 books about afghanistan, the
history of afghanistan, thepeople, the different tribes.
I worked extensively, I was theintel rep for for this group
(07:54):
and and and going into thiscompound seeing those kids with
nothing.
And it hit me and it was likemy God, why, why can't we figure
out how to inspire thosechildren with even a sliver of
hope that there's a way toevolve out of this draconian
(08:15):
culture?
And I, I, you know, I was amedic.
So I started looking at doctorswithout borders, I looked at
USAID, I looked at a bunch ofnonprofits that I could take my
security skills, my medicalskills and I could get access to
warm tour countries andchildren, and I wanted to figure
out how to help them.
(08:36):
Unfortunately, it's justnonprofits, overseas and former
special operations guys, kind ofbutt heads on how they run
things, uh, and I've actuallylost a couple teammates on
rescue missions as a result ofthat type of of security though
I don't want to call itlackadaisical, but they put
(08:58):
their mission ahead of securitya lot of times and it gets them
into troubles, and so I didn'twork out.
But when I came home I was likewell, you know, I started to
notice, if you look atstatistically, at some of the
behavioral health stuff withkids in America, in particular
the last four years, it's we'rein a we're in a nightmare
scenario with that.
But back in 2006, I started tofind statistics that were
(09:24):
frightening to kids, inparticular kids in that 10 to 15
year age, and I said you knowwhat, after a particular article
from a couple of psychologistsfrom Harvard who had coined this
phrase internet withdrawalsyndrome I said which is
essentially the de-socializationof our youth, right, because
(09:45):
you're hyper-connected, you'reintegrated in your device
constantly, your socializationskills plummet and that's what
is causing just a skyrocketingin anxiety, depression and all
the other mental healthchallenges I think our kids are
facing.
I mean hell.
Two years ago, girls' teenagesuicide increased by 50%.
(10:05):
That's a staggering number thatI don't think enough people are
wrapping their minds around.
So I wanted to go help kids inthat transitional process of
where identity begins to emerge.
So I was like, okay, well, whatcan I utilize from my past as a
division one athlete, as a seal,as an instructor, you know, as
(10:28):
you know, working for black,what can I extrapolate and teach
kids?
And so what I came up with,with, this concept called frog
logic and frog is me payingtribute to the, the frogmen of
the navy.
Back in world war ii.
That's what they called theunderwater demolition teams
because essentially they'd gointo combat scenarios with you
(10:48):
know a dive knife, you know oneof those horrible circular masks
and some you know two by foursof spins and like 50 pounds of
tnt, and they would drop theseguys five miles off the atolls.
They'd swim in, blow up thereefs.
So all those landing crafts, sothey called them the frogmen of
the navy.
And so I wanted to pay tributeto that mindset that, no matter
(11:09):
what mission is in front of them, they're going to get it done.
And then, obviously, the logicthat goes behind that, right,
the mindset stuff.
And so I created my firstprogram within frog logic, which
was teaching people how toforge self-confidence, because I
believe self-confidence is oneof the core root ideas of human
(11:29):
performance.
Because when you think about itand I think about it in
particular, that's what I dowhen I go out on the road with
our wholesalers you know theseguys are under this unbelievable
pressure to perform.
Obviously, you know that's thebeauty and the challenge of
first trust.
There is this immeasurablepressure that's everybody
(11:49):
willing, they want it, they'repart of it.
And it's funny, I was just, youknow, down with a bunch of guys
on the beach this morning, as Ido every you know end of the
year event and mid-year eventand get a little fellowship
going, get a little beat downsession in the ocean and on the
beach and and, uh, you know, oneof the things is is talking
about is is managing thatpressure through that
(12:09):
recognition that your, yourself-confidence is malleable.
Right, if you take enough no'severy day, that's going to start
to uh flip and thatintrospection can become jaded
with what I call the negativeinsurgency right, that constant
attack pulling down thestructure of your ability.
(12:30):
And so I developed this, youknow, eight missions of really
teaching guys, young, kids, howto forge that self-confidence in
this growth of identity.
And so that began, the FrogLogic concepts.
Well, that was a long-windedstory for that, sorry, I do have
a tendency to rave.
Ryan (12:48):
No, that was all wonderful .
I've got about 700 follow-upquestions that go down different
rabbit holes there, but youwere talking about performance
coaching and it made me thinklike, what is it that I do
typically, that when I fallshort of the goals that I want
to achieve, is there?
Is there one or two things thatyou think most of us maybe fail
(13:10):
to do or that we were notthinking about in the right way?
Dave (13:13):
A hundred percent.
A hundred percent and it's youknow my performance coaching
career really made a shift.
So I I you know after, after Istarted FrogLogic in in in 2006,
I've talked to about 7 000 kidsin north america from 2006 to
2008.
And then, uh, when the economycollapsed, I got recruited to go
(13:35):
work for the centralintelligence agency and so for
two years trained, was aninstructor, teaching case
officers.
Then for two years I deployedif you ever saw the movie 13
Hours the Secret Soldiers ofBenghazi that's what I did for
two years.
And when I left there, I iswhen I started professionally
speaking, and I started in ourindustry.
(13:56):
A friend I'd gone throughtraining was a wholesaler at a
competitor not really acompetitor, but a different
company and he brought me in andI did 30 events and so that
launched it.
But the next year, 2013, becauseI had a very strong presence on
the internet at that time,because I really understood SEO
marketing early, I understoodYouTube, I understood social
(14:16):
media and then, obviously, withthe podcast, really helped boost
me up a lot, and so I wasapproached by the Miami Dolphins
to come in and work with therookies and so in 2013, I
started working withprofessional athletes and then
started to work with collegiateathletes and then individual
from UFC fighters.
I worked with the United StatesTennis Association for three
(14:39):
years.
I guess my pinnacle year was2018.
I helped the Oregon StateBeavers win a collegiate World
Series championship in my secondyear with them and then in my
third year with the Boston RedSox.
We won a World Serieschampionship there.
So you know, I never imaginedI'd be a performance coach, ever
.
I just didn't see how I couldtranslate the ideas of being a
(15:05):
SEAL instructor, being aBlackwater instructor, being a
CIA instructor, into civiliansand their, you know, whether
it's athletes or business orbusiness owners.
I just didn't have thatcapacity.
But then I started tore-evaluate the core concepts
within our, I think, within howyou learn how to be an operator,
(15:31):
and so those four core things,I think translate across any
spectrum of performance.
So, number one you have to beable to embrace fear.
Right, there's no such thing asbeing fearless.
It's, it's a complete falsehood.
Right, we are, we're wired forfear through our limbic systems.
We're taught fear from day one.
Um, it's just, it's, it's sointegrated.
(15:52):
Out of the, out of eight coreemotions, it's the most
substantial emotion we have todeal with on a day in and day
out.
It never goes away, right.
So, but the thing that peopledon't do is they don't address
their fears, they don't reallyknow what they're afraid of and
they, more importantly, theydon't know how fear alters
perspective.
Right, it restructures yourperceptions.
(16:14):
That's what fear does.
And and through the lens I I tryand simplify it, it's through
the lens of pain, right, when wefeel a pain impulse, or
internally or externally, weimmediately begin to shift how
we kind of integrate with thatpain point.
And and that's where fear isjust spark.
(16:35):
And if you're, if you're, ifyou're so afraid of something,
man, it owns you, it causesparalysis, as causes are an
inability to think clearly, andall the way down on a physical
level, right, if your heartrates at 185, you can't even
think.
Right, right, has all theseother effects of physiologically
.
So, learning how to embraceyour fear as a tool, and that's
(16:59):
one of the, that's the, thefirst in a very linear approach
to this performance, uh, theseconcepts within the frog logic
concept.
So, first, embrace your.
Second, forging self-confidenceright, really understanding how
your self-confidence takes a hitas you go through those
plateaus of pain.
Right, because every time youlike I'm cooking it, I'm
(17:20):
crushing it, I'm doing great,I'm number one on the chart,
right, I'm killing it, you know.
And then all of a sudden youhave a horrible quarter.
You've dropped down 12 points.
You know, you're getting thecalls from your managers, right,
like hey, you, all right,what's going on?
Your self-confidence is shaky,so you have to be able to
(17:41):
recognize that.
All right, how do Irehabilitate self-confidence?
And that's the second one.
The third one is know how to bea good team member and know how
to be a good teammate.
Right, because there's twodifferent things.
One you come in you don't knowa lot.
It's being able to take orders,follow direction, learn on the
(18:01):
fly.
And then the next is whenyou're an actual integrated
member of that team, like thepods that we use.
Each one of those guys has anexpertise that they put forth,
but they do it where they allintegrate those expertise at a
high level, and that's calledwhat I call living the team life
, and it's a comprehensiverecognition that all success is
(18:22):
a derivative of teams.
Period, end of sentence.
And I've worked with you know,ufc fighters, former world
champion.
I've worked with you know, likeI said, you know my third year
with the Red Sox.
I worked with Mookie Betts thatyear.
That was my main focus thatyear.
So you see these people at thehighest level of performance,
but it's the people around themconstantly, right, that are.
(18:44):
You're tapping into the, youknow, your manager or your
economics team, or us and theadvisor consulting group.
Right, it's me in the car with aguy, a wholesaler, that's been
struggling for a few months andlike, all right, let's break it
down.
Right, let's look through allthese things.
(19:04):
What are you afraid of?
How's your self-confidence,how's your team look?
And then the biggest one, themore higher one, is to be able
to live with purpose.
Because ultimately, what If youdon't have a definitive purpose
in your life?
Life is forcing you in thedirections that it wants to take
(19:25):
you, and I think a lot ofpeople in particular that live
in a perpetual state of fearallow life to mandate where they
go.
But, more, more importantly, itseems to mute potential, right,
but if you have a clear purpose,right when I, when I was that
you know 23 year old kid, youknow who left penn state and
(19:46):
joined the navy man, I hadfinally had a purpose.
And and when I made it throughtraining, the purpose got more
dialed in when I finally got my.
The purpose got more dialed inwhen I finally got my trident,
it got more dialed in.
And as I've grown and matured,and in particular now with my
children I have four daughters,my wife, man I know specifically
(20:07):
what my purpose is and how toexecute on it.
So those are the fundamentals.
If you can evaluate yourselfacross that plane and see where
you, what your performance like,you overlay those on the
specificity of performance right, and I think that that's been
the the thing that makes a lotof sense with the people that
I've worked with.
(20:27):
As well as it, it enables me tobe able to deliver that message
to you.
You know a giant LPL conferenceor one-on-one with an advisor
that's trying to take it toanother level.
Ryan (20:41):
Yeah, yeah, those four things definitely ring true.
It seems to me that they're allinterrelated, but is there one
in particular that you thinkpeople struggle with the most
here?
Dave (20:52):
hands down?
Absolutely.
It's crazy, right?
The number one question I usedto get all the time not so much
as I've gotten a little older,but was, were you afraid?
And to me it seems like wait.
Is that a real question?
Are you honestly asking me?
I'm submerged in 58 degreefreezing cold water for you know
(21:16):
, for 90 hours straight.
And how we went?
hell yeah I was afraid I wasafraid every single second.
And and then when I, when Ileft the agency, it was that
that that question were youafraid in combat, were you
afraid here?
And I used to be almost annoyedat it, and I was annoyed at it
because I was afraid to answerit.
(21:37):
It's such an intimate question,right.
There's no greater intimacythan what you're afraid of,
right?
Think about all the times you'vebeen in your greatest hardship,
your greatest challenge, andyou're struggling, you're not
doing well, and someone comes uphey, ryan, are you all right?
Man, what's the first thing?
I'm fine, I'm good.
Why?
Because you don't want toexpose that you're not fine,
(22:05):
that you're not sure, you don'tknow if you're going to be
successful.
So I think fear is the key andpart of the seminar that I teach
on embracing fear.
You know, mission number one isto search for the truth of your
fear, and then step one in thatis to write down all of your
fears that you've, all the fearsyou had as a child, young man,
all your fears right now andthen all your fears in the
future.
Have you ever done that before?
I don't think I have, and I'llbe in front of 500 people.
(22:28):
I'll ask that question and Imight get one person in the
entire audience who said they'vedone it, and usually those
people are in a 12 program.
They're doing deep, deep divepsychologically with a
psychologist or psychiatrist, orthey did it in some, like you
know, philosophy class incollege, but that's it.
But the overwhelming majority ofpeople have no idea what
(22:49):
they're actually afraid of andthen, more importantly, how it
impacts performance Interestingand I think you know that
emotion of fear definitely playsinto the investment industry as
a strategist or portfoliomanager or financial advisor, it
doesn't really matter.
The number one thing I hear andlast year I think I was in front
of a little over 4,000 advisors, right, 30 different states.
(23:13):
The year before it was 4,000advisors, right, 30 different
states.
The year before it's 4,500advisors.
And I'm obviously not talkingone-on-one, but I have a lot of
one-on-one conversations outthere and the thing I hear most
is man, I'm doing more coaching,emotional coaching with my
clients than I've ever evenimagined I would have to do, and
(23:35):
they all laugh when I talk.
You know how often do you haveto talk your clients off the
ledge and especially in thevolatility that we've seen,
covid, through COVID, what we'redealing with around the world,
and you know the way the marketsare.
I mean, if you look at theMagnificent Seven and one day
they gain a trillion dollars inmarket share, the next day
they're down $800 billion andit's like how do you keep that
(24:01):
client of yours in that safespace of confidence and trust?
By mitigating the fear.
So it's understanding on apsychological level what drives
fear.
Ryan (24:15):
Yeah, it seems like there's plenty that people could
be fearful of as they lookaround the world.
Dave (24:20):
Every day, all day.
Ryan (24:22):
Yeah, there's so much unknown and I think we're at a
point in time where there's somuch unknown.
But we also get little blipsand snapshots on Twitter or X
and you know.
So we know little bits of astory and then we find out other
little bits and it's reallytough to to manage the narrative
, what the narrative actually isright.
Dave (24:42):
You're attached to that a hundred percent and that's
something you know.
I think I, I'm, I'm luckybecause of the, the work I've
done in my past, I I understandhow to aggregate content and
information and, yeah, and knowhow to extrapolate the threads
that coalesce the grandernarrative and then also the
(25:03):
threads that deconstruct thatgrander narrative in a more
meaningful way.
I will say we're in acataclysmic shift in terms of
content delivery nowadays.
Whereas before you had very fewoutlets that drove the
narratives, well, x hasliterally dropped an atomic bomb
in the middle of that narrative.
(25:24):
And so now, all of a sudden andthat's why, when you look at
their growth rate over the sinceelon musk bought it, it's it's
the number one news organizationin the world, the deliver of
news.
It's now they're having more.
It's the number one apporganization in the world, the
deliverer of news.
Now they're having more.
It's the number one growing appon the App Store
internationally, around theworld.
It's the place people are goingto post genuine,
well-thought-out content.
(25:44):
And now, with the advent ofindependent journalists, if you
will, people that don't careabout the aggregate in there,
but they're out there trying todeliver real information in real
time, you're seeing this, forlack of a better term.
(26:06):
A lot of people are waking upto maybe some greater truths
that they once didn't know, andthat generates fear, too.
Ryan (26:15):
Yeah truths that they once didn't know, and that generates
fear too.
Yeah, yeah.
Before, when you were talkingabout the path to frog logic,
you mentioned some of theanxiety that you know.
I don't know if anxiety andfear are the same thing.
Dave (26:25):
They're in the same realm.
Ryan (26:27):
But there was a book that I read recently called the
Anxious Generation by JonathanHaidt.
Dave (26:32):
I'm listening to it right now, about halfway through it,
yeah.
Ryan (26:40):
I think anyone who's got kids that are teenagers, that
are, you know, dealing withtheir smartphones and their
social media and and all of theanxiety that creates um, really
need to read that book.
Dave (26:46):
Well, kids hell, man, I feel it.
I mean I get on right.
You know I'm, I'm on Sunday.
Uh, you know I wake up, I havemy cup of coffee, I go through
my feed.
Now all of a sudden I just seeformer President Trump gets shot
again.
Or guys on the golf course whodidn't get shot at, they shot at
him.
I don't want to misquoteanything there, but immediately
(27:10):
I'm pegged.
I think any American is like, ohmy God, a second potential
assassin.
Where are we at?
What does this mean for themarkets?
How does it?
You know, it's just, itcompounds itself and I think,
when you look at what thepandemic did, it reset the
framework of our society inparticular, but I think globally
(27:30):
as well.
Many countries didn't have thesame effect right as others, but
certainly it was a global shiftin consciousness, in particular
through fear, through the lensof oh my God, if I step out my
door I'm going to catchsomething that's going to kill
me, my family, my friends, my,you know, and I think you know
(27:52):
we're still recovering from that.
That shift in consciousness,yeah.
Ryan (27:56):
It seems like there's also , as a result of that, maybe a
lack of trust in some of theinstitutions that people used to
say you know, I 100% trust thisgovernment agency, but now I'm
not so sure I can trust them,and I think that's probably
global as well.
Dave (28:11):
Oh, there's no doubt it's interesting Once you start to
find those journalists that arein everybody's bias just put
that out there for sure, are ineverybody's bias I just put that
out there for sure, and so.
But you watch somebody that'svery focused on delivering.
You know as close to the truthas they can get.
You're seeing that there's thisworry, this perpetual state of
(28:36):
worry.
That's out there and it isglobal for sure.
I mean, when you have thenordstrom pipeline getting blown
up, you know you can telleurope and its energy market is
going to freak out, right, uh,if you look at uh, uh, I mean
it's just you can go all acrossthose markets and everywhere and
how they reacted and what'staking place.
(28:56):
But I think what, what?
Going back to that originalfrog logic and that core
understanding of fear, if youunderstand how fear affects you,
you can actually be able toaddress it in a much more
fundamental way than justletting the effects of that
(29:16):
compounding fear build on you towhere your performance just
starts to come off.
Ryan (29:22):
Okay, we're going to shift gears a little bit.
You've been all over the world,right, yeah, but nowhere fun.
Dave (29:29):
I don't have all these friends and they're like, oh man
, we just got back from Europe,or we went to South Africa or in
here, and they're like, where'sthe best place you've been?
I'm like, uh, spin bulldogAfghanistan.
Ryan (29:40):
Where's the best place you've been?
I'm like, uh, spin BulldogAfghanistan Outside the US.
What's the internationallocation that you think is
unique and you've enjoyed themost?
Dave (29:50):
I mean, obviously, afghanistan is where I spent
most of my time operationally.
It is really this unique spacein the world.
When you understand the historyof it, you understand the Silk
Route, you understand, you knowtranscontinental commerce from
ancient China into the.
(30:11):
You know the step of Iran itwasn't Iran back then, but and
you think about the magnitude ofthat.
And then you also think aboutthe fact that Britain, its back
was broken in Afghanistan,russia's back was broken.
Now ours back was broken inAfghanistan.
It's just there's some I don'teven know what it is.
(30:33):
It's almost like that SaudiLawrence of Arabia feel right.
It's that there's this mystique, this mythological aspect of
afghanistan.
And you know, I remember when Iwas, when I was doing this
building project for blackwater,I would get in, you know, this
old, 50 year old russianhelicopter that lockheed martin
(30:54):
had bought, and we had this oneguy, this old tajik pilot, that
was flying.
This guy had something likealmost 30,000 hours on this
machine, on this helicopter,which is a staggering amount of
flight time, and he would comeout and he'd wear his flip-flops
and a cigarette, you know, andhe'd just sit there and his
pants rolled up and I'd get inthe back with my kit and it was
(31:15):
just me, and we'd get in thishelicopter and we'd fly 1,000
feet above the top.
I'd go from down in Gardez overto Herat, which is on the border
of Iran, back up north intoKabul.
And here I am sitting.
I'll never forget the cooleststory ever.
You remember Bamanye, the placewhere they had those ancient
Buddhist statues carved into theside of the mountain there and
(31:37):
the Taliban blew those up.
Well, I remember sittingthere's an airstrip right there
those ancient buddha statuescarved into the side of the of
the mountain there and thetalban blew those up.
Well, I remember sitting there'san airstrip right there and
it's where you refill, and I'msitting on the airstrip, I've
got a heater in, I've got my youknow my, my cheap ak and I'm in
my kid and it's just me andthis tajik pilot and his you
know his flunky buddy that justgets in so he doesn't pass out.
(32:00):
I guess I don't know what hedoes and I'm sitting there and
I'm looking around at thesestatues and I'm thinking to
myself wow, my life is prettyfascinating right now and I hope
I can take whatever I'mlearning right now and apply it
in a good way.
So, afghanistan, although it isprobably one of the most
(32:21):
war-torn countries in in all ofthe world, there's this
mythological uh allure for me inthat place and it's also an
incredibly beautiful country too.
Yeah, so when you think abouthome um you're, you live in
texas south florida, south yeahsouth texas man, I want so bad,
but my wife, she's from Maineand I can't convince her to go
(32:45):
to Texas.
Ryan (32:46):
So what do you think is different about the US in
comparison to the other places?
I mean Afghanistan.
Obviously there's starkdifferences, but there's
probably some similarities.
But what do you think makes theUS such a different place in
comparison to other parts of theworld?
Dave (33:00):
The ability that we all have a constitutional right, a
God-given right, to speak ourminds.
There's no greater, moreimportant thing on the planet
than the ability to have freespeech.
Nothing, everything, pales incomparison.
No matter where I went aroundthe world, there was always a
(33:21):
restraint of free and openspeech, and that was
operationally or or an otherwisetoo.
I mean some countries,obviously, that you can speak
your mind.
But I mean, look at some of thestuff that's taking place in
Europe right now.
There are people that aregetting two year jail terms
because they're speaking outagainst a particular, uh,
something going on within thegovernment, right, and so
they're speaking out against aparticular something going on
(33:42):
within the government, right,and so they're they're speaking
out and they're doing jail time,right.
Even look at down in brazil andbrazil, uh and the, the, the
head of the supreme court downthere taking x out of the
country and then also makingstarlink out of the country, so,
and it was supposedly like 34million Brazilians were on X.
(34:04):
Now, when you look at their lastelection and what took place
with Bolsonaro and Lula, I meanthat is one of the most
significant things that tookplace in the last four years,
five years, geopolitically, tonot have a free and open place
to speak your mind in Brazil.
(34:24):
That's a catastrophic potentialproblem.
And when you look at the hyperincrease of socialism and, in
some contexts, actual Marxismand communism sweeping through
South America right now, that'sa big deal.
So when you look at America, ineffect, although there's a lot
of people out there who canargue that potentially those
(34:47):
liberties are fading, andthere's a vast array of people
that are advocating against it,right, and they use terms like
hate speech, or they use termslike misinformation,
disinformation then my personalfavorite is malinformation,
which is true information, butit's whatever party doesn't like
(35:07):
it, it's bad, it's bad, right,and I think that's what really
makes America so exceptional,and it's what makes First Trust
so exceptional too, that JimBowen is a profound advocate for
free speech and speaking hismind and not being afraid to
talk about the way he looks atthe other most awesome part
(35:30):
about America, which is ourcapitalistic society.
I mean, you put those twotogether and what have you done?
You've created the mostsignificant influence of
generating wealth that the worldhas ever known, and so that,
for me, is the most beautifulaspect of what our country
(35:52):
represents that right to speakyour mind.
Ryan (35:55):
Yeah, it seems like, in particular, political discourse
is something that people shyaway from.
They're afraid because theydon't want to have conflict.
I don't know if that's relatedto their, you know, running from
the fear of breakingrelationships or something like
that, but it seems like, youknow, the founding fathers all
battled it out.
They had different ideas andthey weren't afraid to, you know
(36:16):
, have conflict and work throughproblems, and it seems like
that'd be a good idea.
It's the ultimate idea.
Dave (36:23):
It's the thing that keeps the structure of the
Constitution intact, right, andwithout that it's worthless
piece of paper.
And when you hear certainperiodicals putting out opinion
pieces on their opinion pagethat do we really need the
Constitution, is it really thatimportant?
(36:44):
You think to your mind and gohey man, do you have any idea
what took place in Romania orCzechoslovakia after World War
II?
Do you have any idea of thecarnage that communism did?
And your inability to speakyour mind, I mean people can't
fathom it, because I thinkobviously we take it for granted
(37:05):
to a certain degree.
Ryan (37:07):
But if you lose the ability to call out that which
is evil, if you will, or thatwhich is untruthful, or these
narratives, if you don't havethat, then you don't have a
society that can functionproperly, because then tyranny
emerges and the next thing youknow you're staring at whatever
particular, you know tyrannicalideology is going to destroy
(37:27):
your way of life right and and Ithink the way to get to truth
is actually to have even if it'ssome wild conspiracy theory, if
you don't, if you're notallowed to address that and have
two sides actually say no wait,this is actually what's going
on, and I think the ability toactually have that discourse is
how you get to truth.
Dave (37:49):
A hundred percent.
There was just a gentleman whowent on, probably the guy who
has the biggest, second biggest.
He goes back and forth withanother guy out there and this
guy's one of the top historiansI've ever heard.
I mean he's absolutelybrilliant, I mean he is, it is.
I've never heard a persondeliver history better than this
guy.
So he goes on there and theyget into this discussion
(38:11):
randomly about world war ii andhe makes a comment about, about
winston churchill and andpotentially that churchill, you
know, could have done somethings differently that maybe
would have avoided 65, 70million people being annihilated
in World War II.
That interview blew up and theway that those two people in
(38:34):
particular, this poor historianis just a historian.
He's not a personality, he'snot a pundit, he's not
advocating one way or the otherand he actually you know he
creates the caveat for thestatement before he says it.
You know he's like this mightbe hyperbole, but you know he
was attacked from around theworld and there were calls for
(38:54):
him to be arrested in certainareas or and there were death
threats.
He got death threats from this,and so when we lose the ability
to put an idea on the table andhave all of us bring forth that
God-given right of evaluationand critical thinking and the
ability to make a poignantargument one way or the other,
(39:18):
from two other directions youcan't even think about.
That's how creativity emerges,that's how society stay intact,
that's how debate flourishes.
And you're right, people havebeen afraid.
I think you know, I, I I was adirect uh, um, uh what do you
call it?
Recipient of cancel culture, um, leading into the 2020
(39:41):
elections.
I was essentially locked out ofFacebook and Instagram.
My YouTube channel wasthrottled.
Several other platformsessentially throttled me as well
, and I lost access to about125,000 followers, and that
devastated my business.
(40:01):
I mean, I absolutely collapsedit.
And here's the thing I never waspolitical.
I never was advocating one sideof the other.
I'm a motivational guy.
I'm like, hey, let's figure outhow to work through this.
But there was one post on onething that someone got on.
They bombarded Facebook and Iimmediately locked me out and I
(40:21):
sent over 300 requests saying,hey, what did I do wrong?
Because this was back when thecensorship industrial complex
was just getting ramped up, andthat's a fascinating thing If
you really want to understandthat.
There's some brilliant peopleout there Michael Schellenberger
, brilliant journalist, as wellas a guy named Mike Benz, are
(40:43):
doing yeoman's work ondescribing how significant this
is and how it interacts with ourforeign policy and domestic
policy as well.
So you know, when you have thepotential to lose your business,
that generates fear, or youhave a potential to lose your
status in your community or yoursociety, because you have a
potential to lose your status inyou and your community or your
society because you have aparticular belief system, man,
(41:05):
that that, what does that do?
It makes you afraid.
Fear comes, and then it justgenerates.
And now, all of a sudden,you're having to live this
disingenuous life to cultivatewhat you think society wants you
to be, and now that causesmassive mental health challenges
for people.
So you know, I'm absolutely.
The number one thing that makesAmerica is what it is is our
(41:29):
ability to free speech.
Ryan (41:30):
Yeah.
So I am at heart an optimist,maybe sometimes too much of an
optimist, yeah.
But you know, I think you haveto look at things as clearly as
possible and maybe allowyourself to not be cynical but
to be an optimist.
Is there anything in particularthat makes you optimistic?
Dave (41:47):
Yeah, I do Is our resilience as a nation.
I mean, when you think aboutthe Revolutionary War, you know,
you think about all thedifferent battles and conflicts
in between there, think aboutall the different battles and
conflicts in between there.
The civil war, I mean the civilwar was.
I mean most countries do notrecover from civil wars, they
(42:10):
just don't do it.
Um, obviously you look at theturn of the century world war
one, world war two, I mean worldwar two was this catastrophic,
the most catastrophic event inhuman history, and we were our
ideals, our vision, our morals,the concept of America was able
to fight through the treacheryof Nazi fascism and then leading
(42:34):
into the 80-year, or, what wasit, 60-year, cold War with
communism, war with communism.
I mean this is substantial,substantial challenges that we
have had to face over and overand over over, over really long
periods of time.
But we keep coming back, wekeep adapting, we keep evolving
(42:55):
and you know, granted, yes,there are some things that we're
not necessarily doing at thehighest way we would like, and I
think that little bit of lackof confidence in certain
institutions is shaking people.
But again, that's why I lovefirst trust, right.
What do we do?
We bring the data to the plate,right.
(43:16):
We bring the data to thediscussion, and when you listen
to Strider or you listen to anyone of our economists you know
Andrew or Brian you know theyalways say, hey, man, look at
the data.
Yeah, all of this is going on,but we're still doing really
well comparative to the rest ofthe world.
So you know, I can befatalistic in terms of my
(43:39):
foreign policy analysis.
Don't get me started on Ukraineand Israel and Iran and all
that, but.
But I think, at the end of theday, america itself is built on
this core competency ofresilience, and that's something
that you have to take heart to.
Okay.
Ryan (43:55):
Yeah, one more question for you, dave.
At the end of all of mypodcasts, I generally ask people
what they're reading.
We already talked about theAnxious Generation, but are
there any books on the DaveRutherford book list that you
either are going to read or haveread recently that you'd
recommend?
Dave (44:14):
Yeah, so I just finished a book called Kudatah so it's
it's coup d'etat by edward andlutwick.
Um, I'm reading, rereading aspace called the rape of the
mind by a psychologist named uhyost mirlu.
Um, I'm reading a book calledthe history of religious ideas,
(44:36):
volume one, and then the the onethat I kind of do for fun is uh
, uh, on the psychology ofmilitary incompetence.
Okay, those all sound likefascinating reads yeah, I people
ask me do you ever read forjust pleasure?
And and I did have a friendrecently, uh, buddy of mine,
(44:58):
graham, wonderful guy guy, he'sfrom Scotland and he introduced
me to this wonderful book aboutwhat was it?
Shackelford and the expeditiondown to.
Antarctica.
That's right.
So you know, when I can't focuson coup d'etats or, you know,
(45:20):
tyrannical regimes, I'll listento that struggle and it's just,
it's pretty inspiring.
Ryan (45:26):
Yeah, all right.
Well, thank you for coming onthe podcast.
This has been a greatconversation and I have, like
you know, 30, 40 more questions,but we're running out of time,
so I hope I can have you onagain.
Dave (45:37):
I'd love it, ryan, thank you so much for having me on.
Can have you on again.
I'd love it, ryan, thank you somuch for having me on.
It's an honor.
I've been wanting to come onwith you.
Ryan (45:45):
I just never knew if I was going to cut it, but I'm happy,
glad we worked it out.
Thanks for joining us andthanks to all of you for joining
us on this episode of the FirstTrust ROI podcast.
We'll see you next time, thankyou.
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