September 24, 2024 • 30 mins
Join us as we explore the increasing presence of first-gen narratives in popular culture and question whether this trend stems from educators' growing interest or a genuine rise in such stories. From "A Different World" to "The Fresh Prince of Bel-Air," we dissect how these shows tackle themes of belonging and equity. Dr. Winfield provides insightful examples of using these narratives in educational environments to discuss fairness, advocacy, and preparing high schoolers for college life. This episode is a must-listen for anyone interested in the intersection of higher education, first-gen student support, and media representation.
This week, we sit down with Dr. James Winfield, the Associate Dean for First Year Experience, General Education, and Retention Strategies, who reveals his unexpected journey into higher education. Inspired by a mentor and his own experiences as a first-gen student, Dr. Winfield sheds light on the vital roles professionals play behind the scenes. He takes us through his early career in student involvement and shares the profound impact of working with TRIO programs, particularly as an upward bound counselor, sparking his passion for supporting first-gen students.
Find out more and connect with James on LinkedIn.
Please help others find this podcast by rating and reviewing wherever you listen!
You can find me at https://www.firstgenfm.com/ and on LinkedIn. My email is jen@firstgenfm.com.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hello, I'm Jennifer Schoen, your host for the First
Gen FM podcast.
Please Call Me Jen.
Each week, I'll share myinsights and ideas, solo or with
a special guest, on creatingopportunities to celebrate and
support the first-generationcollege and college-bound
students we work with.
My goal with this podcast is toconnect you with other high
(00:27):
school and college educators, toshare our successes and
challenges and create a web offirst-gen advocates.
Thank you for joining me today.
Now let's dive into this week'sepisode and welcome Dr James
Winfield.
I'm here with him today andhe's the Associate Dean for
First Year Experience GeneralEducation and Retention
(00:49):
Strategies, and we're going totalk about first gen
representation in pop culture,which I'm really excited to talk
about.
So welcome, James, to thepodcast.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
Yeah, Jen, so glad to be here with you.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
Yeah, thank you, and we've served on the Advisory
Council for the First Gen Centerfor a while, so that's how.
Yeah, thank you, and we'veserved on the Advisory Council
for the First Gen Center for awhile, so that's how we know
each other.
And I was very excited when yousent me an email and said,
please, can I come on thepodcast.
And I was like, yes, yes,please, please, come on the
podcast.
So I'm really excited about thetopic today and pop culture.
But first I always like to knowhow did you get into higher
(01:23):
education?
And especially like, what madeyou start to become an advocate
for first gen students?
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Yeah, thank you so much for the question.
I'm so happy to be here.
I will say that my path inhigher education, like many
higher education professionals,is not necessarily clear because
there's no undergraduatepathway to this field, and it
was more of discovery.
Where I was an active studentleader, I was involved in
(01:53):
orientation, I was a residentassistant hall director and was
a part of my campus's tour andrecruitment ambassador program.
So from there it started toclick.
When one of my advisors, with aconversation with one of my
advisors who was just like youknow, james, I think you have a
(02:13):
good disposition for this work,and I was like what work?
And understood that hey, thisis, there are individuals who
are paid to make a college work.
Yes, yes, and just my naiveteof being first being a student
and then just being a firstgeneration college student, I
(02:35):
just didn't fathom that that waseven a thing.
So from there I was introducedto the field, went through a
phase of denial, should have,you know, initially progressed
with, you know, having my sightsset on going into getting my
master's in higher education,but it took a recession for me
(02:55):
to figure that out.
So in the midst of my job search, I was originally a mass
communication major who wasseeking to be a reporter
communication uh major who wasseeking to be a reporter.
And from there, um, I gotoffered a job.
But, um, I remember, uh, someonetold me that you know that the
guy that offered me the job waslike hey, I think you can do a
(03:15):
little bit better based upon theexperiences that you had.
You've been really involved atyour college and everything.
I don't know what that means,but he offered me the job but
told me that I could dosomething better or different
and I took heed to that and wentback to those mentors,
individuals who were nudging me,and eventually, you know, my
(03:36):
senior year, applied and gotinto the higher education
administration program and havesince had no regrets into the
Higher Education AdministrationProgram and have since had no
regrets.
I've had the opportunity towork in avenues of, you know,
student affairs and academicaffairs, ranging from seeing
students, you know, be admittedinto college and helping to
(03:56):
plant the seed that college isan option for first-gen students
particularly, and then all theway up to helping them be
involved, connected, havelearning communities and be
successful and ultimately walkacross the stage at commencement
.
So that's a quick overview ofmy trajectory into higher
education.
Speaker 1 (04:17):
Yeah, I love that.
I'm with you too, you know,doing all kinds of student
leadership activities and beingreally involved in college.
And yet I too sort of didn'tlook around and say, oh wait,
like these people who are doingall these wonderful things that
I'm part of, like they actuallywork here, they're getting paid
to do these things and that's aprofession you can go into.
(04:39):
Sometimes I'm amazed, like howdid I miss that?
Yeah, you know, cause, cause,it's just all right there and so
.
So when you started in highered, was first gen always part of
your the positions that youheld, or did you make it part of
the positions because of yourbackground as a first gen
student?
Speaker 2 (05:00):
It was not, it was more of I was, was I was made
aware that I was first gen.
When I was an orientationleader I had one of my
orientation advisors, dr JamieMantooth, who just got a chance
to know me and my, my family andmy path into to school and he
(05:20):
was like, well, james, you'refirst gen.
And I was like, oh, I guess Iam.
And he was like, whoa, james,you're first gen.
And I was like, oh, I guess Iam.
And that stuck with me.
So I was able to outwardly saythat I am first generation and
(05:50):
understand what that meant andunpack the feelings of onlyness
and all the other nuancesassociated with it.
So from there I realized therewas a passion, for it Didn't
quite manifest in my firstposition because I worked in
student involvement.
I was advising studentgovernment in my first role.
So that was, of course, youknow the prominent student
leaders making sure that theyled their programs, whether it
was community service, you know,going to lobby days, all these
(06:12):
other cool events that tookplace in that organization.
But my next job after that, mysecond job, was really a
catalyst for me, unpacking andunderstanding first gen and my
advocacy starting because Iworked in federally funded TRIO
programs asan upward bound counselor and
from there that's where itstarted.
(06:35):
You know, I credit the greatfolks at University of South
Carolina and their TRIO programsfor helping me to really lean
into my identity with that,because I was able to connect
with those students and say, hey, you know, I was first gen as
well and while I am first gen, Istill identify, and there are
(06:56):
just elements of this programand what I'm doing for you that
I wish I would have had, becauseI didn't have access to a
program like this.
So that's where it reallystarted for me.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
Nice, and it was at that point that you started to
recognize pop culture references.
And how did you kind of getinto that and working that into
what you do?
Speaker 2 (07:17):
Yeah, as far as the pop culture references, it kind
of did start there, because Iremember I did a workshop and I
unpacked two specific shows andit was Clips from a Different
World and the Fresh Prince ofBel-Air, and first-gen
narratives emerge in those twoshows quite often and I remember
(07:41):
facilitating that conversationand getting the students engaged
and that was kind of the startof that.
But it wasn't until some yearslater, when I got like a bug for
writing, that I started to lookat shows, look at TV, look at
movies and other forms of mediaand say, wait a minute, there's
(08:01):
a narrative there, let me writeabout it.
And say, wait a minute, there'sa narrative there, let me write
about it.
And I don't know what theproducers or directors you know
fully unpack regarding that, ifanything at all.
But I was like, well, let me doit.
And sought to write about thesenarratives and you know what
they mean to me and what I thinkconnects to the work that's
(08:24):
being done in higher education.
Speaker 1 (08:26):
Yeah, do you have any favorite narratives that you've
seen recently that just you'relike.
I need to share this witheveryone.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
I am a big fan of the STARS series Power and it has.
It's a STARS like.
It's a star, it's a poweruniverse of different characters
and Tariq, st Patrick, who'sthe protagonist in that series.
He is the son of, I guess hewas an affluent club owner but
(09:03):
also had ties to he was a formerdrug dealer as well, so there
were some different layers there.
But he's in college now and hewon't have access to funds to
support himself and his familyuntil he completes his degree.
That was a stipulation in hisfather's outline and will in
(09:24):
Last Testament.
So seeing how he navigatesthose spaces is so interesting
and I have analyzed multiplecharacters from that show alone
because it just bubbles up somuch.
I mean there are other showsand movies and TV shows that I
(10:08):
reflect upon that I watched whenI was a child.
I'm like, well, wait a minuteto you know, learning how to
study and actually pass yourexams was were some themes that
really came up in there and Iwas like, wow, okay, this was
really neat and I found that inin connection and parallel to
the narrative of Monsters Incand how Monsters University
(10:28):
unpacked that as well when Mikeand Sully were going through
their college experience also.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
Yeah, yeah.
Do you know, when you thinkabout something like you're
thinking of buying a blue carand you're like, wow, I rarely
see blue cars, but the minuteyou're looking for a blue car,
blue cars are everywhere.
Do you find that, withfirst-gen narratives, that now
that you're writing about it,you're looking at it, that it
(10:53):
shows up in almost everythingthat you're paying attention to?
Speaker 2 (10:58):
Yeah, I would say I would lean into that A lot of
part of what you said in thateffect.
I think that holds true.
It exists in ways that I didn't.
I just didn't see before, Ididn't have necessarily the
wherewithal.
And then there are some pointswhere, just in my reflections of
shows and other forms of mediayou know from childhood, I'm
(11:22):
like wait a minute, let me gorewatch that and see what's
present there, and that helps tosolidify and unpack some of
those, those points that I'mlooking to elaborate on.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
Yeah, For those of us who are, you know, working with
students in college, how?
Or?
And for you, how do you usesome of these things to help
guide students through theirexperiences?
Speaker 2 (11:47):
Yeah, yeah, I would have to say that media is really
a good point to helpindividuals just kind of see
that connection, because that'swhat we're drawn to for a form
of entertainment, right.
Speaker 1 (12:01):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
And it's something about the fusion of
entertainment and education thathelps to bridge that gap and
draw some connection to where itdoesn't seem as dry at times,
right, yes yes, because I thinkabout in my role at Southern New
(12:22):
Hampshire University.
Of course I serve as anassociate dean, I work with a
lot of the general education andfirst year experience courses,
but also in that in one of thecourses in particular, I teach
courses, but also in that in oneof the courses in particular, I
teach and we have a segmentwhere we ask students to reflect
on some form of communicationthat they've seen or resolving
(12:43):
differences, and think about ashow, think about a movie, think
about something that you'veseen.
That helps to unpack that alittle bit more and with that,
the connections that they draw,the television shows that they
come out.
For some reason, the show Suitshas sought a reemergence over
(13:04):
the years and they were reallydiving into that.
And then someone even broughtup there's even a first-gen
undertone there with one of thelawyers there which I need to
look at.
So it's just really cool to seehow they, being the students,
how they draw upon theconnections and look at what
(13:25):
happens in television and moviesto help make it more relatable.
To help make it more relatableand it's odd to say relatable
because you would think thegenuine human experience would
be, but when you see it from thelens of a television show or
from a movie.
I think the connection is thatokay, wait, I saw that, I saw
(13:47):
that.
Oh, okay, that makes sense, Ican relate to that or I know
someone that experienced that.
So it just develops that commonground at times and it also
gives individuals a point to do.
I guess quote unquote research.
Let me go watch that and learna little bit more about it, if
(14:07):
it sounds interesting.
Speaker 1 (14:09):
Yeah, yeah.
I wonder too if sometimesseeing that acted out or reading
about it in a book givestudents a way to share their
experience without it being toopersonal to them that they can
bring in.
You know, I saw the show andthen they can say and I've
experienced something similar,versus them sharing a whole
(14:30):
narrative about their ownexperience.
Speaker 2 (14:33):
I love that.
I believe that there's somevalidity to that point, because
I think about the appreciativeeducation model and disarming
people, and you want individualsto come into a space and feel
comfortable, and that's a greatway for them to connect with
something that's external fromthem but that they can connect
(14:56):
with, and if they choose toshare that, hey, this is also a
part of my identity or myexperience.
They can, but sometimes, you'reright, it can, it can, you know
, pull at heartstrings I thinkabout.
You know I mentioned a coupleof Disney narratives.
You know, even in the Marveluniverse, you know, with
Spider-Man, he's a first genstudent, so just all those
(15:20):
different components.
So there's a common connectionto a lot of these components.
And even in books as well, asyou mentioned, there are some
fiction pieces that I've heardabout that can really help to
connect to this as well.
Speaker 1 (15:36):
Yeah.
Do you think that this issomething new, that the
first-gen narrative is coming upmore because first-gen students
are more talked about, apparent, or do you think it's the blue
car thing that we're becomingmore aware of first gen students
and and are paying moreattention to them as, as college
(16:00):
educators, as high schooleducators?
I mean, we've been doing, youknow, trio programs have been
around for a long time, but isthat something that, like this
is chicken and an egg right Like?
Are we paying more attention tothat because that's what's in
our sphere, or is there more ofit coming out in all kinds of
media that we're just reallygrabbing onto?
Speaker 2 (16:24):
I've wondered that myself and I'm thinking that
we're able to name it more now.
Speaker 1 (16:30):
Yeah, that's a good way to put it.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
I feel that that's what it is, because, as I
mentioned, there are narrativesthat I'm able to reflect on from
childhood and I'm like, wait aminute, that's a first-gen
narrative, but it's not calledfirst-gen, so it's just a matter
of, I think, the yeah, there'sheightened awareness.
Now.
I think that we are in thisseason where there is this.
I think that we are in thisseason where there is this
(17:13):
infatuation, you know, withcollege life.
Again.
I think about students who aredrawn to Z actually watching
that show and taking heed to theadvocacy and all the different
elements that come up in thatshow.
The HBCU experience it's thisimaginary, it's this panacea of
Blackness that exists there.
(17:35):
It's really affirming to seethat and then for individuals to
think, okay, that might inspireme to go to college, but I
really like the culture thatexists within this show, so that
infatuation really helps topull that out, to pull that out.
And I think about shows nowlike Gen V, where I see two
(17:57):
things that I like a lot collegeand superheroes merged together
right, and I've looked at thatshow.
I will throw out the prefacethat it is a quite graphic show,
but there are elements therewhere Marie, the main character,
goes through so many layers ofthe first-gen experience and
(18:20):
trying to seek belonging that Ilook forward to that being one
of my upcoming pieces where Iunpack some of those feelings as
well.
Speaker 1 (18:30):
Yeah, love it, love it, and I do.
I remember a different worldwhen I was in grad school and,
uh, and talking about that andseeing just that we didn't name
it first gen, like I don't thinkin the show they name it first
gen either.
But now, as you say, lookingback, you're like, oh, look at
that, there it is right there,right in front of us, and we
didn't realize it.
(18:51):
Yeah, so, yeah, good, good stuff.
So tell me some ways that youactually use it in whether
you're doing retention or firstyear experience programs.
Can you give me like an exampleof a program that you did so
all of us who are working withthe first gen students can steal
that and use it in our ownprograms.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
I'm still seeking to figure out the best way to
intertwine that but, as Imentioned, I did that workshop
with my students that were atthis time seeking to go to
college.
They were in their senior year.
I had a summit when I workedfor TRIO programs and there was
(19:33):
this particular scene in theFresh Prince of Bel-Air.
I think that the episode wascalled.
I think Thick as Mud was thetitle of that particular episode
.
It was where Carlton and Willwere both pledging.
It was a fraternity.
It was not one of the realDivine Nine organizations but,
(19:54):
it had some similarities to it.
But I will say that they weregoing through the pledging
process and just seeing thedifferences in how Will was
treated versus Carlton.
Now, this wasn't per se a firstgen narrative.
Will was very excited to wantto pledge this organization.
(20:14):
He was like, oh, that's what Iwant to be a part of.
And then Carlton was like, eh,I'll do it as well.
He was seeking to probably joinanother organization but since
his cousin was looking to be inthat organization, he chose to
go through the process with him.
But it unpacked a lot of nuanceof Black culture.
(20:35):
It was the elements of tryingto understand acceptance,
belonging and yeah, there wassome hazing involved and that's
not to make light of hazing.
They portrayed it in more of ahumorous manner but at the end
(20:56):
of the day, we all know, ashigher education professionals
in student affairs and whatnot,that it's not right.
But it showed the unfairnessthere and how, based upon one's
profile and what they liked andhow they carried themselves, how
they were treated differentlythan the other, will was treated
better through the process thanCarlton.
So we were able to unpack thatwith the students and say, okay,
(21:18):
what was wrong here, what couldhave been done.
Why was he treated this way?
You know, really getting thosestudents to think about, first
and foremost, at the level ofwhere they are, how are they
treating one another andthinking about, once they go
into the collegiate experience,how do we become, you know,
advocates for fairness andequity, right, so that was
(21:42):
really enlightening there.
And then there was anotherscene I cannot truly remember
which one.
It was for A Different World,because there were so many that
I mined through but we, we did,we facilitate those
conversations, I facilitatedthose conversations and it was
(22:06):
just a really great experienceto get those students to think
on that level.
And when you get into thecollege environment, how do you
maintain yourself, seek thatbelonging and advocate for
others?
Speaker 1 (22:19):
Yeah, yeah.
And it even sounds like.
How do you you know if you'rebeing pulled in one direction
because someone else is doingsomething, but that's not where
you want to belong or where youfeel like you belong?
How do you navigate that aswell?
Speaker 2 (22:33):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:35):
Yeah, all, yeah, I.
I always think, if we can havethose conversations with the
high school students to thinkahead to what college is like
situations you might findyourself in that when they get
to college they're a little bitmore prepared, like, oh yeah, we
talked about this.
It's kind of planting the seeds, right, that you don't know
(22:55):
what's going to grow until theyactually go through the
experiences.
But I love that idea of doingthat with the upper bound
students.
Yeah, and was that at SouthCarolina as well?
Speaker 2 (23:04):
It was, it was, that's right.
You said that?
Speaker 1 (23:06):
Yeah, that's awesome, that's so cool.
What advice would you give forthose of us who yeah, yeah,
continue to.
Speaker 2 (23:22):
when you see it, write it down.
It is to a point now, to where,if I'm watching a show, if I am
reading a book, if I'm engagingin any form of media, I pause
and I jot down my ideas and myledger, just to make sure I have
(23:43):
a listing of it.
So I have a bank of conceptsthat are not quite finished yet,
but on a month-to-month basisvia my LinkedIn profile.
For those that follow me, it'sjwinfield4.
I just put out a monthly piece.
(24:04):
Sometimes I get excited andI'll do two in a month, but I
write about the differentnarratives that I see.
Whether it is I mentioned theone regarding extremely goofy
movie, I felt like that.
I think that was one of themost popular ones and along with
(24:24):
some of the power book twosubmissions that I posted.
But find different ways to putthose narratives out there.
You know, leverage social mediaif you want.
You know what I don't?
I recognize that everyone's nottrying to write about it.
That's perfectly fine.
But find a way to unpack it Ifit's in conversation with
(24:47):
students, if it's in a workshop,but making certain that it's
something that they can relateto as well.
Because I recognize that some ofthe pieces that I may write may
only resonate with a certaingeneration and it may have
stopped at that certain point,and I'm okay with that.
But you know, because I thinkabout, like even right now,
whether we like it or realize itor not, waterboy Bobby
(25:12):
Boucher's character is actuallyfirst gen and I'm planning on
writing something about that one.
But just listen to the students, listen to them and think about
you know what are they talkingabout, what shows what media,
what is standing out to them andwhere are those narratives
(25:32):
present?
And also, with this, don'texclude music.
You know it can reside in musicas well.
I attended a great presentationat the FYE conference hosted by
Dr Charmaine Troy and Dr KarenJackson about lyrics and how,
(25:59):
you know, some things pop up.
You know about the first genexperience and it was really
cool to hear that and how itreally can influence students
and provide a level ofmotivation there.
And they align that with hiphop specifically and aligning
(26:19):
that with the 50th anniversaryof hip hop.
Speaker 1 (26:22):
Yeah, yeah, I love that idea because certainly
students aren't, I'm just gonnasay, aren't necessarily watching
the same things we're watchingor listening to the same things
we're listening to.
And yet it's another set ofeyes and ears listening for that
first gen narrative where theymight not be thinking, they may
(26:42):
notice it, but they don't reallythink of it in that way.
And then all of a sudden it'slike that's why I resonate with
this.
It's similar to my story, likeI see that now in a different
light than when I was listeningto it or watching it before.
So we have kind of more eyesout there looking for those
things in movies and TV andbooks and music.
Speaker 2 (27:05):
Yeah, definitely, definitely.
So many forms of media outthere, and for me also, this is
a great way for me to leveragemy mass communication degree.
Speaker 1 (27:13):
Nice, yes, yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:14):
Yeah, so I can, you know, write those analyses about
, you know, about the thingsthat I hear and see.
And one of my favorite rappersis, uh, j cole.
Like I'm even looking to reallydive into more of his lyrics
and think about, okay, how is hetalking about his first gen
experience?
Because he went off to um, Ibelieve, nyu and from there was
(27:36):
just able to be in the precipiceof all of of this hip which was
, you know, originated in NewYork.
So that was his goal, like hewas there to get connected for
that, but also to achieve thegoal of his degree.
But there were differentundertones and goals for that.
Speaker 1 (27:58):
That's cool.
Now tell me that name again.
Speaker 2 (28:02):
It's J Cole that's cool.
Speaker 1 (28:03):
Now tell me that name again.
It's J Cole.
All right, that's great.
Well, james, thank you so muchfor spending this time and
talking about what I can clearlysee and hear that you're
passionate about and and writingabout it and talking about it.
You did say folks could findyou at J Winfield four and I'll
put that in the show notes inLinkedIn.
Are there any other ways thatfolks could contact you if they
(28:26):
wanted more information orwanted to continue the
conversation with you?
Speaker 2 (28:30):
Yeah, I mean, I'm also available on X, formerly
known as Twitter, also atjwinfield4.
And yeah, and via my LinkedInprofile.
I think that that's a great wayto connect with me.
I'm always looking to connectwith other professionals as well
, and I will offer a slightcorrection.
(28:52):
When I said that J Cole went toNYU, it was not NYU.
It was not NYU, it was anotherinstitution.
But with that, I'll just saythat I'm just I really love
unpacking these narratives andseeing what takes place and how
they inform and guide.
You know individuals paths,along with how we can connect
(29:14):
with them on our own as well.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
Yeah, yeah, I love it , I love it and, as you said,
students really resonate with itand they get excited about
seeing their own stories indifferent ways.
That gives them language andways to express themselves.
That may not be like hey, tellme your story.
It's like well, have you seenthis?
Like they can use that, I think, to find their own words to
(29:41):
express themselves too.
Speaker 2 (29:45):
So fantastic.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
Well, thank you so much for being on First Gen FM
the podcast.
I will look forward to seeingyou, hopefully, in the June
conference for the First GenStudent Success in Anaheim,
where we'll be in the heart ofDisney and all kinds of
narratives being created rightaround first gen folks.
So thank you, listeners too.
(30:06):
Thank you for being here withme today and if you want to get
in touch with me, you can findme at Jen, that's J-E-N at
firstgenfmcom and at my websiteis firstgenfmcom.
I look forward to talking withyou again next week.
I look forward to talking withyou again next week and, as
(30:27):
always, I love to hear a ratingand review and helps other
people find the podcast.
Thanks so much for today andwe'll talk to you next week.
Thank you.
Hello, I'm Jennifer Schoen, your host for the First
Gen FM podcast.
Please Call Me Jen.
Each week, I'll share myinsights and ideas, solo or with
a special guest, on creatingopportunities to celebrate and
support the first-generationcollege and college-bound
students we work with.
My goal with this podcast is toconnect you with other high
(00:27):
school and college educators, toshare our successes and
challenges and create a web offirst-gen advocates.
Thank you for joining me today.
Now let's dive into this week'sepisode and welcome Dr James
Winfield.
I'm here with him today andhe's the Associate Dean for
First Year Experience GeneralEducation and Retention
(00:49):
Strategies, and we're going totalk about first gen
representation in pop culture,which I'm really excited to talk
about.
So welcome, James, to thepodcast.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
Yeah, Jen, so glad to be here with you.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
Yeah, thank you, and we've served on the Advisory
Council for the First Gen Centerfor a while, so that's how.
Yeah, thank you, and we'veserved on the Advisory Council
for the First Gen Center for awhile, so that's how we know
each other.
And I was very excited when yousent me an email and said,
please, can I come on thepodcast.
And I was like, yes, yes,please, please, come on the
podcast.
So I'm really excited about thetopic today and pop culture.
But first I always like to knowhow did you get into higher
(01:23):
education?
And especially like, what madeyou start to become an advocate
for first gen students?
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Yeah, thank you so much for the question.
I'm so happy to be here.
I will say that my path inhigher education, like many
higher education professionals,is not necessarily clear because
there's no undergraduatepathway to this field, and it
was more of discovery.
Where I was an active studentleader, I was involved in
(01:53):
orientation, I was a residentassistant hall director and was
a part of my campus's tour andrecruitment ambassador program.
So from there it started toclick.
When one of my advisors, with aconversation with one of my
advisors who was just like youknow, james, I think you have a
(02:13):
good disposition for this work,and I was like what work?
And understood that hey, thisis, there are individuals who
are paid to make a college work.
Yes, yes, and just my naiveteof being first being a student
and then just being a firstgeneration college student, I
(02:35):
just didn't fathom that that waseven a thing.
So from there I was introducedto the field, went through a
phase of denial, should have,you know, initially progressed
with, you know, having my sightsset on going into getting my
master's in higher education,but it took a recession for me
(02:55):
to figure that out.
So in the midst of my job search, I was originally a mass
communication major who wasseeking to be a reporter
communication uh major who wasseeking to be a reporter.
And from there, um, I gotoffered a job.
But, um, I remember, uh, someonetold me that you know that the
guy that offered me the job waslike hey, I think you can do a
(03:15):
little bit better based upon theexperiences that you had.
You've been really involved atyour college and everything.
I don't know what that means,but he offered me the job but
told me that I could dosomething better or different
and I took heed to that and wentback to those mentors,
individuals who were nudging me,and eventually, you know, my
(03:36):
senior year, applied and gotinto the higher education
administration program and havesince had no regrets into the
Higher Education AdministrationProgram and have since had no
regrets.
I've had the opportunity towork in avenues of, you know,
student affairs and academicaffairs, ranging from seeing
students, you know, be admittedinto college and helping to
(03:56):
plant the seed that college isan option for first-gen students
particularly, and then all theway up to helping them be
involved, connected, havelearning communities and be
successful and ultimately walkacross the stage at commencement
.
So that's a quick overview ofmy trajectory into higher
education.
Speaker 1 (04:17):
Yeah, I love that.
I'm with you too, you know,doing all kinds of student
leadership activities and beingreally involved in college.
And yet I too sort of didn'tlook around and say, oh wait,
like these people who are doingall these wonderful things that
I'm part of, like they actuallywork here, they're getting paid
to do these things and that's aprofession you can go into.
(04:39):
Sometimes I'm amazed, like howdid I miss that?
Yeah, you know, cause, cause,it's just all right there and so
.
So when you started in highered, was first gen always part of
your the positions that youheld, or did you make it part of
the positions because of yourbackground as a first gen
student?
Speaker 2 (05:00):
It was not, it was more of I was, was I was made
aware that I was first gen.
When I was an orientationleader I had one of my
orientation advisors, dr JamieMantooth, who just got a chance
to know me and my, my family andmy path into to school and he
(05:20):
was like, well, james, you'refirst gen.
And I was like, oh, I guess Iam.
And he was like, whoa, james,you're first gen.
And I was like, oh, I guess Iam.
And that stuck with me.
So I was able to outwardly saythat I am first generation and
(05:50):
understand what that meant andunpack the feelings of onlyness
and all the other nuancesassociated with it.
So from there I realized therewas a passion, for it Didn't
quite manifest in my firstposition because I worked in
student involvement.
I was advising studentgovernment in my first role.
So that was, of course, youknow the prominent student
leaders making sure that theyled their programs, whether it
was community service, you know,going to lobby days, all these
(06:12):
other cool events that tookplace in that organization.
But my next job after that, mysecond job, was really a
catalyst for me, unpacking andunderstanding first gen and my
advocacy starting because Iworked in federally funded TRIO
programs asan upward bound counselor and
from there that's where itstarted.
(06:35):
You know, I credit the greatfolks at University of South
Carolina and their TRIO programsfor helping me to really lean
into my identity with that,because I was able to connect
with those students and say, hey, you know, I was first gen as
well and while I am first gen, Istill identify, and there are
(06:56):
just elements of this programand what I'm doing for you that
I wish I would have had, becauseI didn't have access to a
program like this.
So that's where it reallystarted for me.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
Nice, and it was at that point that you started to
recognize pop culture references.
And how did you kind of getinto that and working that into
what you do?
Speaker 2 (07:17):
Yeah, as far as the pop culture references, it kind
of did start there, because Iremember I did a workshop and I
unpacked two specific shows andit was Clips from a Different
World and the Fresh Prince ofBel-Air, and first-gen
narratives emerge in those twoshows quite often and I remember
(07:41):
facilitating that conversationand getting the students engaged
and that was kind of the startof that.
But it wasn't until some yearslater, when I got like a bug for
writing, that I started to lookat shows, look at TV, look at
movies and other forms of mediaand say, wait a minute, there's
(08:01):
a narrative there, let me writeabout it.
And say, wait a minute, there'sa narrative there, let me write
about it.
And I don't know what theproducers or directors you know
fully unpack regarding that, ifanything at all.
But I was like, well, let me doit.
And sought to write about thesenarratives and you know what
they mean to me and what I thinkconnects to the work that's
(08:24):
being done in higher education.
Speaker 1 (08:26):
Yeah, do you have any favorite narratives that you've
seen recently that just you'relike.
I need to share this witheveryone.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
I am a big fan of the STARS series Power and it has.
It's a STARS like.
It's a star, it's a poweruniverse of different characters
and Tariq, st Patrick, who'sthe protagonist in that series.
He is the son of, I guess hewas an affluent club owner but
(09:03):
also had ties to he was a formerdrug dealer as well, so there
were some different layers there.
But he's in college now and hewon't have access to funds to
support himself and his familyuntil he completes his degree.
That was a stipulation in hisfather's outline and will in
(09:24):
Last Testament.
So seeing how he navigatesthose spaces is so interesting
and I have analyzed multiplecharacters from that show alone
because it just bubbles up somuch.
I mean there are other showsand movies and TV shows that I
(10:08):
reflect upon that I watched whenI was a child.
I'm like, well, wait a minuteto you know, learning how to
study and actually pass yourexams was were some themes that
really came up in there and Iwas like, wow, okay, this was
really neat and I found that inin connection and parallel to
the narrative of Monsters Incand how Monsters University
(10:28):
unpacked that as well when Mikeand Sully were going through
their college experience also.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
Yeah, yeah.
Do you know, when you thinkabout something like you're
thinking of buying a blue carand you're like, wow, I rarely
see blue cars, but the minuteyou're looking for a blue car,
blue cars are everywhere.
Do you find that, withfirst-gen narratives, that now
that you're writing about it,you're looking at it, that it
(10:53):
shows up in almost everythingthat you're paying attention to?
Speaker 2 (10:58):
Yeah, I would say I would lean into that A lot of
part of what you said in thateffect.
I think that holds true.
It exists in ways that I didn't.
I just didn't see before, Ididn't have necessarily the
wherewithal.
And then there are some pointswhere, just in my reflections of
shows and other forms of mediayou know from childhood, I'm
(11:22):
like wait a minute, let me gorewatch that and see what's
present there, and that helps tosolidify and unpack some of
those, those points that I'mlooking to elaborate on.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
Yeah, For those of us who are, you know, working with
students in college, how?
Or?
And for you, how do you usesome of these things to help
guide students through theirexperiences?
Speaker 2 (11:47):
Yeah, yeah, I would have to say that media is really
a good point to helpindividuals just kind of see
that connection, because that'swhat we're drawn to for a form
of entertainment, right.
Speaker 1 (12:01):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
And it's something about the fusion of
entertainment and education thathelps to bridge that gap and
draw some connection to where itdoesn't seem as dry at times,
right, yes yes, because I thinkabout in my role at Southern New
(12:22):
Hampshire University.
Of course I serve as anassociate dean, I work with a
lot of the general education andfirst year experience courses,
but also in that in one of thecourses in particular, I teach
courses, but also in that in oneof the courses in particular, I
teach and we have a segmentwhere we ask students to reflect
on some form of communicationthat they've seen or resolving
(12:43):
differences, and think about ashow, think about a movie, think
about something that you'veseen.
That helps to unpack that alittle bit more and with that,
the connections that they draw,the television shows that they
come out.
For some reason, the show Suitshas sought a reemergence over
(13:04):
the years and they were reallydiving into that.
And then someone even broughtup there's even a first-gen
undertone there with one of thelawyers there which I need to
look at.
So it's just really cool to seehow they, being the students,
how they draw upon theconnections and look at what
(13:25):
happens in television and moviesto help make it more relatable.
To help make it more relatableand it's odd to say relatable
because you would think thegenuine human experience would
be, but when you see it from thelens of a television show or
from a movie.
I think the connection is thatokay, wait, I saw that, I saw
(13:47):
that.
Oh, okay, that makes sense, Ican relate to that or I know
someone that experienced that.
So it just develops that commonground at times and it also
gives individuals a point to do.
I guess quote unquote research.
Let me go watch that and learna little bit more about it, if
(14:07):
it sounds interesting.
Speaker 1 (14:09):
Yeah, yeah.
I wonder too if sometimesseeing that acted out or reading
about it in a book givestudents a way to share their
experience without it being toopersonal to them that they can
bring in.
You know, I saw the show andthen they can say and I've
experienced something similar,versus them sharing a whole
(14:30):
narrative about their ownexperience.
Speaker 2 (14:33):
I love that.
I believe that there's somevalidity to that point, because
I think about the appreciativeeducation model and disarming
people, and you want individualsto come into a space and feel
comfortable, and that's a greatway for them to connect with
something that's external fromthem but that they can connect
(14:56):
with, and if they choose toshare that, hey, this is also a
part of my identity or myexperience.
They can, but sometimes, you'reright, it can, it can, you know
, pull at heartstrings I thinkabout.
You know I mentioned a coupleof Disney narratives.
You know, even in the Marveluniverse, you know, with
Spider-Man, he's a first genstudent, so just all those
(15:20):
different components.
So there's a common connectionto a lot of these components.
And even in books as well, asyou mentioned, there are some
fiction pieces that I've heardabout that can really help to
connect to this as well.
Speaker 1 (15:36):
Yeah.
Do you think that this issomething new, that the
first-gen narrative is coming upmore because first-gen students
are more talked about, apparent, or do you think it's the blue
car thing that we're becomingmore aware of first gen students
and and are paying moreattention to them as, as college
(16:00):
educators, as high schooleducators?
I mean, we've been doing, youknow, trio programs have been
around for a long time, but isthat something that, like this
is chicken and an egg right Like?
Are we paying more attention tothat because that's what's in
our sphere, or is there more ofit coming out in all kinds of
media that we're just reallygrabbing onto?
Speaker 2 (16:24):
I've wondered that myself and I'm thinking that
we're able to name it more now.
Speaker 1 (16:30):
Yeah, that's a good way to put it.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
I feel that that's what it is, because, as I
mentioned, there are narrativesthat I'm able to reflect on from
childhood and I'm like, wait aminute, that's a first-gen
narrative, but it's not calledfirst-gen, so it's just a matter
of, I think, the yeah, there'sheightened awareness.
Now.
I think that we are in thisseason where there is this.
I think that we are in thisseason where there is this
(17:13):
infatuation, you know, withcollege life.
Again.
I think about students who aredrawn to Z actually watching
that show and taking heed to theadvocacy and all the different
elements that come up in thatshow.
The HBCU experience it's thisimaginary, it's this panacea of
Blackness that exists there.
(17:35):
It's really affirming to seethat and then for individuals to
think, okay, that might inspireme to go to college, but I
really like the culture thatexists within this show, so that
infatuation really helps topull that out, to pull that out.
And I think about shows nowlike Gen V, where I see two
(17:57):
things that I like a lot collegeand superheroes merged together
right, and I've looked at thatshow.
I will throw out the prefacethat it is a quite graphic show,
but there are elements therewhere Marie, the main character,
goes through so many layers ofthe first-gen experience and
(18:20):
trying to seek belonging that Ilook forward to that being one
of my upcoming pieces where Iunpack some of those feelings as
well.
Speaker 1 (18:30):
Yeah, love it, love it, and I do.
I remember a different worldwhen I was in grad school and,
uh, and talking about that andseeing just that we didn't name
it first gen, like I don't thinkin the show they name it first
gen either.
But now, as you say, lookingback, you're like, oh, look at
that, there it is right there,right in front of us, and we
didn't realize it.
(18:51):
Yeah, so, yeah, good, good stuff.
So tell me some ways that youactually use it in whether
you're doing retention or firstyear experience programs.
Can you give me like an exampleof a program that you did so
all of us who are working withthe first gen students can steal
that and use it in our ownprograms.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
I'm still seeking to figure out the best way to
intertwine that but, as Imentioned, I did that workshop
with my students that were atthis time seeking to go to
college.
They were in their senior year.
I had a summit when I workedfor TRIO programs and there was
(19:33):
this particular scene in theFresh Prince of Bel-Air.
I think that the episode wascalled.
I think Thick as Mud was thetitle of that particular episode
.
It was where Carlton and Willwere both pledging.
It was a fraternity.
It was not one of the realDivine Nine organizations but,
(19:54):
it had some similarities to it.
But I will say that they weregoing through the pledging
process and just seeing thedifferences in how Will was
treated versus Carlton.
Now, this wasn't per se a firstgen narrative.
Will was very excited to wantto pledge this organization.
(20:14):
He was like, oh, that's what Iwant to be a part of.
And then Carlton was like, eh,I'll do it as well.
He was seeking to probably joinanother organization but since
his cousin was looking to be inthat organization, he chose to
go through the process with him.
But it unpacked a lot of nuanceof Black culture.
(20:35):
It was the elements of tryingto understand acceptance,
belonging and yeah, there wassome hazing involved and that's
not to make light of hazing.
They portrayed it in more of ahumorous manner but at the end
(20:56):
of the day, we all know, ashigher education professionals
in student affairs and whatnot,that it's not right.
But it showed the unfairnessthere and how, based upon one's
profile and what they liked andhow they carried themselves, how
they were treated differentlythan the other, will was treated
better through the process thanCarlton.
So we were able to unpack thatwith the students and say, okay,
(21:18):
what was wrong here, what couldhave been done.
Why was he treated this way?
You know, really getting thosestudents to think about, first
and foremost, at the level ofwhere they are, how are they
treating one another andthinking about, once they go
into the collegiate experience,how do we become, you know,
advocates for fairness andequity, right, so that was
(21:42):
really enlightening there.
And then there was anotherscene I cannot truly remember
which one.
It was for A Different World,because there were so many that
I mined through but we, we did,we facilitate those
conversations, I facilitatedthose conversations and it was
(22:06):
just a really great experienceto get those students to think
on that level.
And when you get into thecollege environment, how do you
maintain yourself, seek thatbelonging and advocate for
others?
Speaker 1 (22:19):
Yeah, yeah.
And it even sounds like.
How do you you know if you'rebeing pulled in one direction
because someone else is doingsomething, but that's not where
you want to belong or where youfeel like you belong?
How do you navigate that aswell?
Speaker 2 (22:33):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:35):
Yeah, all, yeah, I.
I always think, if we can havethose conversations with the
high school students to thinkahead to what college is like
situations you might findyourself in that when they get
to college they're a little bitmore prepared, like, oh yeah, we
talked about this.
It's kind of planting the seeds, right, that you don't know
(22:55):
what's going to grow until theyactually go through the
experiences.
But I love that idea of doingthat with the upper bound
students.
Yeah, and was that at SouthCarolina as well?
Speaker 2 (23:04):
It was, it was, that's right.
You said that?
Speaker 1 (23:06):
Yeah, that's awesome, that's so cool.
What advice would you give forthose of us who yeah, yeah,
continue to.
Speaker 2 (23:22):
when you see it, write it down.
It is to a point now, to where,if I'm watching a show, if I am
reading a book, if I'm engagingin any form of media, I pause
and I jot down my ideas and myledger, just to make sure I have
(23:43):
a listing of it.
So I have a bank of conceptsthat are not quite finished yet,
but on a month-to-month basisvia my LinkedIn profile.
For those that follow me, it'sjwinfield4.
I just put out a monthly piece.
(24:04):
Sometimes I get excited andI'll do two in a month, but I
write about the differentnarratives that I see.
Whether it is I mentioned theone regarding extremely goofy
movie, I felt like that.
I think that was one of themost popular ones and along with
(24:24):
some of the power book twosubmissions that I posted.
But find different ways to putthose narratives out there.
You know, leverage social mediaif you want.
You know what I don't?
I recognize that everyone's nottrying to write about it.
That's perfectly fine.
But find a way to unpack it Ifit's in conversation with
(24:47):
students, if it's in a workshop,but making certain that it's
something that they can relateto as well.
Because I recognize that some ofthe pieces that I may write may
only resonate with a certaingeneration and it may have
stopped at that certain point,and I'm okay with that.
But you know, because I thinkabout, like even right now,
whether we like it or realize itor not, waterboy Bobby
(25:12):
Boucher's character is actuallyfirst gen and I'm planning on
writing something about that one.
But just listen to the students, listen to them and think about
you know what are they talkingabout, what shows what media,
what is standing out to them andwhere are those narratives
(25:32):
present?
And also, with this, don'texclude music.
You know it can reside in musicas well.
I attended a great presentationat the FYE conference hosted by
Dr Charmaine Troy and Dr KarenJackson about lyrics and how,
(25:59):
you know, some things pop up.
You know about the first genexperience and it was really
cool to hear that and how itreally can influence students
and provide a level ofmotivation there.
And they align that with hiphop specifically and aligning
(26:19):
that with the 50th anniversaryof hip hop.
Speaker 1 (26:22):
Yeah, yeah, I love that idea because certainly
students aren't, I'm just gonnasay, aren't necessarily watching
the same things we're watchingor listening to the same things
we're listening to.
And yet it's another set ofeyes and ears listening for that
first gen narrative where theymight not be thinking, they may
(26:42):
notice it, but they don't reallythink of it in that way.
And then all of a sudden it'slike that's why I resonate with
this.
It's similar to my story, likeI see that now in a different
light than when I was listeningto it or watching it before.
So we have kind of more eyesout there looking for those
things in movies and TV andbooks and music.
Speaker 2 (27:05):
Yeah, definitely, definitely.
So many forms of media outthere, and for me also, this is
a great way for me to leveragemy mass communication degree.
Speaker 1 (27:13):
Nice, yes, yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:14):
Yeah, so I can, you know, write those analyses about
, you know, about the thingsthat I hear and see.
And one of my favorite rappersis, uh, j cole.
Like I'm even looking to reallydive into more of his lyrics
and think about, okay, how is hetalking about his first gen
experience?
Because he went off to um, Ibelieve, nyu and from there was
(27:36):
just able to be in the precipiceof all of of this hip which was
, you know, originated in NewYork.
So that was his goal, like hewas there to get connected for
that, but also to achieve thegoal of his degree.
But there were differentundertones and goals for that.
Speaker 1 (27:58):
That's cool.
Now tell me that name again.
Speaker 2 (28:02):
It's J Cole that's cool.
Speaker 1 (28:03):
Now tell me that name again.
It's J Cole.
All right, that's great.
Well, james, thank you so muchfor spending this time and
talking about what I can clearlysee and hear that you're
passionate about and and writingabout it and talking about it.
You did say folks could findyou at J Winfield four and I'll
put that in the show notes inLinkedIn.
Are there any other ways thatfolks could contact you if they
(28:26):
wanted more information orwanted to continue the
conversation with you?
Speaker 2 (28:30):
Yeah, I mean, I'm also available on X, formerly
known as Twitter, also atjwinfield4.
And yeah, and via my LinkedInprofile.
I think that that's a great wayto connect with me.
I'm always looking to connectwith other professionals as well
, and I will offer a slightcorrection.
(28:52):
When I said that J Cole went toNYU, it was not NYU.
It was not NYU, it was anotherinstitution.
But with that, I'll just saythat I'm just I really love
unpacking these narratives andseeing what takes place and how
they inform and guide.
You know individuals paths,along with how we can connect
(29:14):
with them on our own as well.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
Yeah, yeah, I love it , I love it and, as you said,
students really resonate with itand they get excited about
seeing their own stories indifferent ways.
That gives them language andways to express themselves.
That may not be like hey, tellme your story.
It's like well, have you seenthis?
Like they can use that, I think, to find their own words to
(29:41):
express themselves too.
Speaker 2 (29:45):
So fantastic.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
Well, thank you so much for being on First Gen FM
the podcast.
I will look forward to seeingyou, hopefully, in the June
conference for the First GenStudent Success in Anaheim,
where we'll be in the heart ofDisney and all kinds of
narratives being created rightaround first gen folks.
So thank you, listeners too.
(30:06):
Thank you for being here withme today and if you want to get
in touch with me, you can findme at Jen, that's J-E-N at
firstgenfmcom and at my websiteis firstgenfmcom.
I look forward to talking withyou again next week.
I look forward to talking withyou again next week and, as
(30:27):
always, I love to hear a ratingand review and helps other
people find the podcast.
Thanks so much for today andwe'll talk to you next week.
Thank you.
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I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com