Have you ever considered every turn in your path as a stepping stone towards your true calling? Dr. Ashanti Chunn, our guest from Tennessee State University, shares her compelling switch from biology to education and how it fueled her passion for mentoring first-generation college students through the transformative You FIRST Project. Join us on First Gen FM, where we discuss storytelling and its impact on personal and professional growth.
As our conversation unfolds, we uncover the innovative Life Design curriculum at the heart of the You FIRST Project. This eight-semester guide, inspired by the work of William Johnson and Kathleen Shea Smith, is a beacon for students navigating the waters of self-discovery and career planning. Listen to how personality assessments and crafting personal mission statements can chart a course for meaningful work aligned with core values. We tackle the challenge of sparking voluntary engagement and continuously adapting to guide the way for student needs.
The episode culminates with a poignant exploration of persistence and identity in student support, dissecting their critical roles in retention and success. Dr. Chunn and I peel back the layers of student experiences, revealing the trials of homesickness and financial anxiety that can masquerade as thriving. We celebrate the evolution of support services, such as virtual sessions and honor societies, which are tailored to first-generation students. We part with empowering advice for those guiding the college-bound: support first-generation students with the tools they need to weave their education into their unique timeline and aspirations. Tune in and embrace this heartfelt dialogue, affirming the power of support over pity for first-generation students charting their course in higher education.
Dr. Ashanti Chunn's Bio
Ashanti Chunn, Ed.D. currently serves as the Assistant Director of the Tennessee State University You First Project Graduation Initiatives for First-Generation Students. Additionally, she directs the grant’s Journey to 120 credits activity and serves as one of the project’s First-Generation Specialists where she leads a team of three to help students actualize their college dreams. Previously, she served as the Activity Director of the Pathfinders Project at TSU. In that position, she identified and enacted academic support programming for first and second-year students in pre-professional majors such as nursing, health sciences, and dental hygiene. Before these positions, she served as an Academic Advisor for TRIO Student Support Services where she assisted first-generation and lower-income students to attain academic achievement and identify various career paths.
Links:
TSU You First Project: https://www.tnstate.edu/youfirst/
Instagram: @tsu_youfirst Life Design Catalyst Curriculum: https://thedreamdean.com/life-design-catalyst-program/
University of Oklahoma Coaching to Complete Model/Persistence Themes: https://www.ou.edu/alc/ou-alc-coaching-to-complete-model
Please help others find this podcast by rating and reviewing wherever you listen!
You can find me at https://www.firstgenfm.com/ and on LinkedIn. My email is jen@firstgenfm.com.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jennifer Schoen (00:08):
Hello, I'm Jennifer Shown, your host for
the First Gen FN podcast.
Please call me Jen.
Each week, I'll share myinsights and ideas, solo or with
a special guest, on creatingopportunities to celebrate and
support the First Gen Collegeand College Bound students we
work with.
My goal with this podcast is toconnect you with other high
(00:30):
school and college educators, toshare our successes and
challenges and create a web ofFirst Gen advocates.
Thank you for joining me today.
Now let's dive into this week'sepisode.
Welcome to First Gen FM.
I'm so excited to have you herelistening Today.
I'm bringing you from TennesseeState and HBCU in Nashville, dr
(00:56):
Ashanti Chun.
She's the assistant director ofthe UFIRST project and I'm
really excited to talk to hertoday about the UFIRST project
because we met at a conference Ibelieve it was the NASPA
conference and we got to talkingabout the UFIRST project and a
class that she runs and a wholebunch of other things.
(01:17):
I'm like, oh, excellent.
So finally we're gettingtogether to talk about the after
a few schedules.
So thanks for coming, ashanti.
I really appreciate it.
Dr. Ashanti Chunn (01:26):
Thank you so much for inviting me and
thinking the information I haveto share is valuable.
I'm happy to be here.
Jennifer Schoen (01:31):
Yeah, absolutely.
What got you into highereducation and specifically
working with First GenerationCollege students?
Dr. Ashanti Chunn (01:38):
What got me into higher education.
I was originally a biologymajor and I was working in a
urology lab and I thought thatwould be a really good fit for
me, and after working there Irealized it wasn't the best
thing, and so I happened to justbe seeking direction, came to
(01:59):
TSU's job website, because TSUwas also where I went for
undergrad and my first graddegree, and so it was really
kind of just a shooting in thedark, hoping that it might be
something, because I also hadprevious educational background,
but it was K through 12.
So I had been a biology teacherat a middle school and in a
high school.
(02:20):
So I was just wondering ifthere might be some sort of
educational opportunity that Ifelt like better served me at
Tennessee State, and so I took achance.
There happened to be a academicadvisor position there for TRIO
Student Support Services, andso I applied for that, was
blessed enough to be hired, andso that allowed me my entry into
(02:44):
higher education andsimultaneously work with first
gen students at the same time.
Jennifer Schoen (02:49):
Wow, that's awesome.
I love talking about how peopleget to where they are, because
so often paths are not linear oh, not at all, and I think many
students still have that idea ofa career ladder and when they
hear stories like this theyrealize it's not necessarily a
career ladder.
But I like to think of it assort of a career jungle gym
(03:12):
where there's lots of differentpaths to get to how you want to
get to where you want to,absolutely.
Dr. Ashanti Chunn (03:17):
I think that just represents the complexity
of people, one of the thingsthat I know we'll talk about
this later but one of the thingsthat comes up a lot in our
sessions, because of what ourframework is with you first, is
who are you and telling yourstory and unpacking the fullness
of that and helping students tounderstand that there are
(03:39):
multiple ways to honor yourself.
That might look like a singlecareer that brings you
fulfillment the entire time.
It might look like jumping frompath to path, and every single
one of those paths is OK, aslong as when you match it back
to the standard of what youbelieve you're in this world to
do, it honors that, and so Ishare my story with students
(04:02):
because I want them to see thatI did K through 12 education and
I think that honored somethingthat I'm very committed to,
which is the betterment of otherpeople's lives.
And then I went to healthcarebecause I value what health is
for people, and again itconnected back to biology, which
I have a passion for.
But then there were just someelements of that particular
career that didn't work for me,and so then I was able to try
(04:24):
again in a different educationalpond and this is the one that
really sticks for me.
But I think giving studentsthat information I almost think
it's a disservice not to,because sometimes they can feel
as if then, or even we give theimpression to people who perhaps
are not college going, that ifa person doesn't stay on a
(04:44):
singular path, that they'vesomehow dishonored the journey
of a degree.
Absolutely not, if in obtainingthat degree they discovered
what their mission was, andevery Lilly pad that they jumped
to honors that.
Jennifer Schoen (04:57):
Yeah, and no knowledge is lost.
Dr. Ashanti Chunn (05:00):
Oh, not at all.
Jennifer Schoen (05:01):
It's.
You never know how you're goingto use the knowledge that you
gained and you think maybe it'snot related, but yet it comes up
later in ways that you can'texpect.
So everything that you learnand how you grow takes you to
where you are now and then goingto next.
So, yeah, I think that'sfantastic, I think that's a nice
segue to into talking about theyou first project.
(05:24):
So can you give us an overviewof what that looks like and
maybe how it got developed?
Dr. Ashanti Chunn (05:31):
Yeah, so the first project is our
university's only comprehensiveundergraduate first gen student
support service.
So we certainly acknowledge thework of trio.
They remain on our campus butof course trio is funded for a
certain number of students andso was able to serve that
population.
But we serve everyundergraduate first generation
(05:52):
student on our campus.
So, ultimately, how that cameto be, my director and myself we
have worked at Tennessee Statefor a while, and so for the trio
I moved to a specific grantfunding that's for HBCUs, which
is title three, and every fiveyears those grants come up for
potential renewal with thesubmission of a proposal to the
(06:13):
Department of Education.
And so it was time to submitsomething else in hope to bring
a new idea to TSU.
And because I was a part oftrio when it started, I knew
when trio ended as far asstudent support services on our
campus, I knew that we didn'thave something else on a large
scale that served a lot of firstgeneration students, and so my
(06:35):
director and I had been talkingabout that and felt like that
was the direction that we neededto go in.
So we sat down and wrote thisproposal and hoped to be able to
service that group of studentsin a meaningful way, and,
ultimately, that is how youfirst came about.
So we have been in existence atTSU since October of 2020,
which is interesting in and ofitself because, if we remember
(06:58):
what 2020 represents, welaunched a brand new program in
the middle of a pandemic, withstudents at home in the middle
of a semester.
So it was a very interestingjourney to bring about, but that
is how you first got started,and so, again, we are a
comprehensive student supportservice for our students, and so
we serve freshmen to seniorstudents, and simply, the way
(07:22):
that works is we have a team ofpeople that we call first
generation specialists, thathave been trained in house
according to the guidelines thatwe have, as well as according
to the framework that we use toserve our students, which is the
life design curriculum, and soeach one of those specialists is
assigned a certain major ormajors, just so that we all
(07:43):
carry a similar number ofstudents on our case load, and
then we are responsible for thefirst generation students on our
campus who have identifiedthemselves as such, who fall
into those majors.
So we are a voluntary program.
We contact every single studentwho does fall into those
categories, but it is up to thestudent to engage with us, and
(08:04):
so, from that and thosescheduling or them taking us up
on our offer, we invite them tocome in and have sessions with
us.
And again, we use this amazingcurriculum called the life
design catalyst framework, andso we use that to as the
curriculum founder terms.
(08:25):
It spark, and that's S-P-A-R-C-Kand that's helping students to
tell their story, identify theirpurpose, identify their
aspirations, reflect on theiractions for that point, identify
who they need to connect andpartner with to make the things
that they want for their lifehappen.
And then a catch phrase that Isay to students after you start
(08:46):
talking, you got to startwalking.
So the K is kickstart.
How do I get into the gear?
What do I do next and now inorder to bring all of those
things full circle?
So that's what takes place ineach one of our sessions.
Ultimately, it is some level ofhelping students to discover
and ignite their spark.
Jennifer Schoen (09:06):
I love that when I listen to this podcast
again, I have a feeling I'mgoing to play that like over and
over again, because I love allthe different steps and I love
that reflection is included.
Oh, I think sometimes we get sobusy doing, and students get so
busy doing, that we don't, wedon't give ourselves time to
reflect, but we especially don'tgive students a chance to
(09:29):
reflect and kind of see backdown the mountain how far
they've come sometimes, versusjust always looking up to where
they wanna go.
Dr. Ashanti Chunn (09:38):
Absolutely.
It's something that our teamreally takes to heart.
It's something when I'm talkingto colleagues of mine, et
cetera, I am encouraging them.
You know what both did.
You say you may not be whereyou want to be, but where are
you now in relationship to whereyou were?
Are you moving forward or areyou moving backward?
How do you feel about that, etcetera.
But I think it's a reallyimportant thing, a gift almost
(09:59):
to give to students, because ourbigger purpose in this is we
want them to have academicsuccess, but, more importantly,
we want them to have lifesuccess, and when we wrote you
first, we were very intentionalabout that.
We value all of the successmetrics that a traditional
institution has retention,credit, completion, you know,
gpa, et cetera.
(10:20):
However, this is a temporarystop on a continuous journey and
if we are going to adequatelyprepare people, especially first
gen individuals, then we haveto provide them with tools that
will equip them to be successfulbeyond this moment.
So the beautiful thing alsoabout life design is it's
(10:44):
applicable at any stage in life.
We do it with ourselves as ateam.
We do it with our students.
I've discussed countless wayswith my team and with the
founder of this about all of thedifferent ways that it could
show up.
And so reflection is soimportant, because there
shouldn't be any point in yourlife where you're not stopping
(11:05):
and saying where am I trying togo and am I on the right path to
get there?
It's an especially awesome giftfor first generation students.
Sometimes, being a first genstudent and now grad myself,
we're very focused on the endgame and we don't necessarily
take the time to give ourselvescredit for things until we feel
(11:28):
like we've gotten to what wesaid the ultimate goal is.
So we reflect in the sense thathey, I'm not where I said I'm
going, so you need to get there,but not necessarily stopping to
take stock of all the beautifulnuggets that are happening in
between or giving ourselvescredit, cause we're like we'll
stop and reflect when we get tothe end game.
We got big goals out here, sothat's kind of where we sit a
(11:52):
lot.
Jennifer Schoen (11:54):
Yeah, I heard a great podcast the other day
that talked also about not justknowing where you're going, but
where you are now, kind ofcomparing it to GPS, like you
can't just put in yourdestination and expect to get
there.
You have to know where you'restarting from before you get the
best route to get there, and Ithink reflection helps to do
(12:14):
that, like where am I right now?
So I love that, I love thecelebration of it, I love the
reflection piece, I love thewhole kickstart.
Like you know, it's great tothink about these things with
that, and then you have to acton them as well.
Yeah, what a great program.
So what are some of the thingsthat you do specifically around
(12:34):
Spark, around the U-firstprogram, and even the life
design course can choose.
What would you like to talkabout in terms of either what
you think the strength of theprogram is or what's some of the
challenges that you've comeacross?
Dr. Ashanti Chunn (12:47):
Sure, I'll do both, if that's okay.
Again, I think the strength isthat number one, my supervisor.
So I have to just give a shoutout the U-first project director
her name is Dr Ceci Abou and Isay this in full honesty is one
of the most visionary andbrilliant minds I've met.
(13:09):
So she's so good about givingme space and thinking bigger
than even what's before us atthe moment.
And so in this, like I said,when we were writing this
proposal, we were like what canwe do that benefits students now
and benefits students later?
(13:30):
And we were fortunate enough tohave been in spaces with both
William Johnson, bill Johnson,who created life design, what we
use and also to be in a spacewith Dr Kathleen Shaysmith from
the University of Oklahoma, andwe had heard wonderful things
that they were doing in bothspaces and realized that there
were elements of both of thosethings that we wanted to combine
(13:52):
and bring to our students.
Bill had created life design ina call from his university, uncg
, to create an advising programfor students.
Well, instead of creating thetraditional advising program, he
created this class what can Ido with my life?
And in what can I do with mylife?
He put together these variousactivities that move students
(14:13):
through these four modulesknowing self, sense of self,
becoming a better you and,basically, who are you.
So these are the four thingsthat students would walk through
as an advisement session, ifyou will, but over the course of
a semester.
And then Kathleen Shaysmith andthe University of Oklahoma had
(14:34):
done this incredible work notspecific to first generation
students, but just reallyimportant work on persistence
themes.
They had done the work tofigure out what are the things
that have to be addressed inorder for students to be able to
continue to move forward inthis journey, and so we pulled
both of those things together.
We do not have a class at ouruniversity, but we were like
(14:55):
what would it look like to turnthis class into sessions and
turn it into a curriculum thatworks with students over the
course of their eight, orpotentially more or less,
semesters during theirmatriculation?
And then how can we bring inalso those things that we know
are important to them and haveto be successfully mastered or
(15:15):
addressed in order for them tokeep coming back?
And so, in our sessions, whatthat looks like is, when we were
writing this proposal, I satdown and basically adapted both
of those things and created anentire eight semester curriculum
for our students For eachsemester, or actually for each
(15:35):
semester, but actually even foreach session.
So what this looks like iswe're saying we try to get
students to come in for threesessions a semester and for each
of those sessions they have avery specific intent that the
specialist is trying to achieve.
So let's say, for instance, inthe very first one we're just
trying to get them to begin torealize the importance of their
(15:58):
story.
So, working with that S, we areengaging in activities where
we're asking them open-endedquestions to get them to tell us
more about themselves.
That evolves into things likeusing elements from Bill's
curriculum where we're gettingthem to engage in personality
assessments.
So they're doing things likeMyers-Briggs, they're doing
(16:18):
things like the Enneagram, andthen we're sitting back and
having this really wonderfulconversation and then really
honing in on, for instance, likethe section with Myers-Briggs
that then talks about possiblecareer paths because of
personality, because what wewant them to see this as is not
disjointedness, it's not oh, Ichoose a major and this is who I
am and this is what I value,but none of those things connect
(16:42):
in any way.
So we are very intentional inthe sessions about life design
being all of those things comingtogether.
Who are you, what do you want?
What do you value?
Where do you feel like that allcombines to make what you
believe to be meaningful work?
(17:02):
So a session again can looklike asking them open-ended
questions or getting them toparticipate in a personality
assessment.
It could look like getting themto create a mission statement
for themselves, creating ameaningful work statement for
themselves.
So what meaningful work lookslike to them?
It looks like values inventory.
(17:24):
Sometimes we literally here'seven one of them.
We have value tags thatphysically, 36 things that they
cut out and they love.
It gives them an opportunity toengage, tactile, et cetera.
But they start out putting theminto significant and
insignificant for them and theyhave to narrow them all the way
(17:44):
down from what's important to 10to five.
And then we talk it through.
And then we talk about okay, asit relates to your major, what
you believe your career outletsare.
How do these values show up?
Are they being honored in thatspace?
Again, it's always thisintentionality where nothing is
done in the box.
So that's essentially whatsessions look like.
(18:07):
Again, ultimately, when we getour way, we see them at least
three times to really havemeaningful conversations.
Some people jump into that andwe see them even more times and
sometimes we have a harder time,which takes me to the challenge
part of it, again.
We are voluntary and we are onan amazing campus that has a lot
of different support resources.
(18:28):
And students are humans, ofcourse, but adults just like any
other, and a lot of us knowthat there are things that we
should have in our life that wedon't necessarily take advantage
of, whether that's the healthcoaching that our insurance
offers us or the financialplanning that we should do, or
just sitting down and writingthe goals that we have for our
own life.
(18:48):
And so, ultimately, that is ourchallenge that we are voluntary
and that we believe in this somuch and know what it can do for
a person.
And sometimes that passion canget you where you even can get
frustrated, like, oh, why don'tthey come in?
Why don't they see me?
I know what it will do for them.
And you cast out your surveyand you get their responses
(19:11):
about what they wish the collegewould do, and then they give
you answers and you're likethat's exactly what we're doing.
We do that right.
We are here doing that right now, and yet I don't see you.
So that's the challenge pieceis to continue to figure out how
to make it Attractive.
The challenge is also beingwilling to be humble.
(19:32):
How does it need to change?
What does it need to?
How does it need to modify,potentially to reflect more of
what they want to see?
Because, as somebody who hasbeen a part of it from the
beginning, in the inception, youknow this is like a baby for me
.
So of course, it can be easy tobe like, no, everything is
(19:53):
exactly like it needs to be.
But stop, a Shanti isn't whatthey need.
You know, when I was doing mydissertation, one of the
theories that I was quoting wassaying that for a support
service on a campus, part ofthat support services
responsibility is to Get peopleto engage.
That, no matter how good thatsupport service is, if they
(20:14):
cannot get people to engage withthem, then they fall flat in
some ways, and so that issomething that we have had to
address.
What do we continue to do?
To diversify our message and tofind ways to Get students more
students, because it wouldcertainly be unfair To say that
people are not.
People are definitely, and theygive us a great quantitative and
(20:36):
qualitative Data back, but wewant more of that, and so the
strength is the framework in thecurriculum and the work that
has been put in to creatingsomething that will serve them
here but at every singlejuncture of their life, because
they can come back in therelater, 20s and 30s and 40s, and
talk about their values.
They can redo their meaningfulwork statement.
(20:57):
They can redo.
So these aren't things that arejust specific to this moment,
but our challenge is we have tohave a product that's attractive
to the people that we're tryingto attract, not just attractive
to us.
How do we bring those twothings together and continue to
innovate with students and thegenerational needs of today and
give them something that theywant?
Jennifer Schoen (21:20):
Right, yes, I love how you put that, because
it's we know things.
We know a lot of things aboutwhat students need, and the
students Sometimes know thingsand what they need, but they're
not sure how to access it, andif it doesn't look interesting
or is not appealing to them,then they're not going to engage
in it, and so that's we have todeliver the goods, but we also
(21:43):
have to tell them about it in away that makes it really easy
for them to access it absolutely.
Yeah.
Dr. Ashanti Chunn (21:49):
I agree Absolutely.
Jennifer Schoen (21:50):
Hey, I was when you were talking.
So you have a class that you dofor this and then does your do
your advising sessions kind ofmirror the class, like if you
meet with a student one-on-one,you know what particular class
and what stage they're at inSpark, and so then you, you do
your.
You know you're holisticadvising around that.
Dr. Ashanti Chunn (22:11):
So we, our team, does teach a class, but
the class is not related to lifedesign.
We just happen to teach afreshman University seminar
class.
So we follow the curriculumthat the university has for that
build the creator.
When he was delivering it, hedelivered it as a class at his
institution but we didn't getthat.
(22:32):
So our strictly happens in thesessions.
So, a specialist because Iwould be assigned, let's say to
you, I know exactly where youare, because, of course, we're
also using our studentinformation platform to document
our sessions.
So every time you come back, Iknow where you are.
And so, again, since I havewritten a pretty structured
curriculum as well, it isliterally like an educators
(22:52):
lesson plan.
So if you came in for sessionone, you would see you know the
topic and the intent and themethodology, so what activities
you would be covering then.
And then you're able to pullthat back out Like, oh, this is
Jennifer's third one, okay,she's on this, so we're going to
this now.
Of course, we're always givingspace because these are student
sessions to first address whatis it that you want to talk
(23:14):
about today, always giving spaceto that.
If the student doesn't havesomething, then we ask for
permission.
I've got a couple things I'dlike to talk about today.
So is it okay that we go there?
So then we fall back into thecurriculum that we have.
But so we know where thatstudent is, because it's not
Really happening in that classjust because we're all Trained
(23:35):
in like design.
There certainly are someelements that probably come out
in our university seminar class,but that is not what that
class's focus is.
So we use our studentinformation system and our notes
to know where each student is,even you know, as they sometimes
go between specialists, becauseof course you'll have a major
change etc.
So you just pull up all of thatstudent's file and you're able
(23:56):
to see where they are and thenLeave them with the next space
and sometimes, because Iwouldn't want to want to get the
wrong impression, even thoughwe have this structured
curriculum, we also give umspace and grace to specialists
as the trained professionals inthe room to know where students
need to go based on what they'resaying.
So if something from year two,session two, seems like the next
(24:18):
thing that needs to happen,even though the student is year
one, semester four, then grabthat thing, pull that up,
because you know sometimes I'llget a student and they walk in
and they're like I have to knowwhat it is I'm gonna do with my
life, like I have wasted toomuch time and I don't know.
And you know, even though Ihave a build up, you know, as
far as the story and the perfectto get them to a place, then
(24:39):
sometimes I realize I have aCaptive person in front of me
who, if they don't get somethingtangible in that moment,
they're going to mentally checkout because they don't have what
they need.
So then that makes me go intothe curriculum and grab what I
need for that moment To get themto a space where they can walk
away with with what they saythey want to have.
So there's certainlyflexibility in that as well.
(25:01):
But yes ours happens withsessions.
Jennifer Schoen (25:03):
Yeah, so so you have the session and a plan,
but you also let the studentlead.
Absolutely they need at themoment.
Dr. Ashanti Chunn (25:11):
Yeah, absolutely so.
You know, in session one, whenwe're also telling them, because
we're letting them tell theirstory, but we're also explaining
to them what you first is,because if we want them to come
back, of course they need tounderstand what this is.
So they're understanding thatthis is what we'd like to happen
, but in every given moment,these are yours.
We can switch it up.
This is what we're doing.
(25:31):
So they know, and we reaffirmeach time they come into the
space what is it?
You know that you want to do,what do you want to have happen?
And I think it's the importantbalance.
They trust us as theprofessionals in the room, that
we do have some ideas and plansand are equipped To help them
get where they want to go, butthey are the expert of their
lives.
So we don't run the show, wejust help facilitate the process
(25:55):
that you say that you want togo through.
So tell us what you want tohave happen.
Yeah yeah, and I didn't mention.
I mentioned persistence thingsa bit, but let me come back to
that just so it makes a littlebit more sense.
Persistence themes that theyidentified are things like
health and resiliency, umfinancial confidence, um Major
(26:16):
to career design, just thoseelements that you can look at a
person and they have friends,etc.
But let's say that the healthand resiliency piece isn't where
it needs to be.
They're feeling homesick,they're not feeling confident,
they don't feel that they havethe efficacy to To sustain this
path.
Then things can be going well,visibly, as far as what we see,
or we could be having great lifedesign conversations, but
(26:37):
they're they're elements thatare not being hit at the level
they need to in order to sustaintheir return.
So how we work those in often isum Just simply open and really
great open-ended questions froma document that the university
of oklahoma created.
So they have, uh, open-endedquestions that almost look
progressive, almost like levelsof Of growth for each one of
(26:59):
those persistence themes, and sosometimes we just have our book
open and we'll just throw outsome of those um.
Have you experienced moments ofhomesick, sickness or feelings
of not belonging this semester?
If you have talked about, talkabout those and how you walk
through them.
So just some intentionality onplacing those things there,
because you can be very focusedon a particular Topic or context
(27:21):
for the sessions and thenrealize that you have somebody
sitting in front of you that'sstruggling with some other
things.
They're answering all thequestions, right, but they don't
know where the money's gonnacome from for next semester, so
they're gonna walk out the doorand not return.
So again, it's a perfectmarriage between those things
too that happen in our sessions.
Jennifer Schoen (27:36):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So what are some things thatyou've learned from students
over over the the times, theyears that you've been doing
this?
Both right, you know, duringthe pandemic and post, yeah, um
what are some things that I havelearned?
Dr. Ashanti Chunn (27:51):
First, I think that, literally just like
everybody else, you can needsomething and not know how to
integrate that into your life.
Or you can know some thingsabout yourself but still need
some reassurance or affirmationthat what you know is what you
know, what I love in one sessionin particular.
(28:12):
Again, I typically always leavethem through personality
assessments, ask them if they'reopen.
They're so funny because whenyou get to the end, they they
treat you like some magic genieor something.
How do you know those thingsabout me?
I'm like I don't actually knowanything other than what you're
telling me.
You answered all the questionsand just because I've had the
(28:33):
opportunity to do this enough,I'm able to lead the
conversation.
But no magic eight ball,nothing behind the scenes.
Um, you know the answers and soit's.
It's just beautiful when theyanswer you know, authentically,
truthfully, and then they'relike that is right, that is how
I engage in relationships, etc.
And so that's what I mean whenI'm saying sometimes you know
what you know, but you needaffirmation that what you know
(28:55):
is true.
Um, so things like that helpand we do a series of
assessments again so that theydon't feel like it's a singular
thing.
You know, we do a valuesassessment, we do the idiot
grand, we do the personalityassessment.
Um, what else did?
I Learned from them that thisidentity in general, um, it
strikes people in different ways.
(29:15):
Some people don't feel thisautomatic pride About being
first gen and we have to givespace for that as well.
Sometimes we will talk topeople.
They understand our definition,they know what we're saying and
they are like, hey, I don'twant it, I don't consider myself
first gen and remove myselffrom your communication.
You have to take that, you haveto like yes, you're trying to
(29:37):
convey something to them abouthow it's a beautiful thing and
it's pride and it's the thestart of a legacy, but you have
to honor where they feel in thatjourney.
Um, also, I think I would sayjust that remembering it's just
a lot to navigate.
Whether they are quote unquotetraditional, going college age
(29:59):
or non traditional, there arejust so many elements that are
in the air.
Every semester brings differentcourses and new personalities
and you have to tap back in andset goals, and so it's a really
fluid time and some moments,just like with any other adult,
they feel like they're on top ofthe world, and so you see them
more and you get more from them,and sometimes they do not, and
(30:23):
I can't and I talk to the team,we can't take that personally.
We have to show up in the sameway, steal and try to provide as
much affirmation andreassurance as possible for
something that is difficult.
It is certainly doable, but itshouldn't be lost on us, just
because we've gotten a degree,that this is a tough thing to do
(30:44):
, because life keeps happeningwhile you're doing it.
It doesn't stop for college,and so sometimes all of us have
experienced moments where wewant to press pause on
everything else to get one thingright, and life does not afford
us that beautiful opportunity.
So to remember that and to bekind to them because, again,
(31:05):
standing on this side, sometimesas the educator or the support
service or what not, you want tobe like come on, we gotta do
this, we gotta get together, youcan do it, it's gonna be okay.
They may not feel that or knowthat or whatever the case is.
They just have to offer grace.
Now you hold accountable towhat they say they want, but you
(31:26):
offer them a lot of grace, sothey constantly teach me that
and remind me of that and alsojust the joy of seeing the world
with fresh eyes.
Sometimes it sounds crazy likein our university 1000 class.
We have them do a budget andtell us what they think they're
gonna make and all of theseother things, and you see these
numbers like well, you must notbe going into education.
(31:49):
But also you realize it's notyours to take and to diminish
and tell them what can't be.
Anything is possible and we aresupposed to be the strongest
hope dealers and advocates thatthere are.
(32:10):
So it is a blessing to be able.
So what I learned from them toois they see it fresh and they
don't necessarily care that youdon't think it's possible and I
don't know that that's such abad idea?
Jennifer Schoen (32:24):
No, I mean, we are working with people who are
gonna change the world.
Dr. Ashanti Chunn (32:27):
Absolutely.
Jennifer Schoen (32:28):
We don't know how or when, but that's the gift
that we get right, and I agreewith you that they see the world
differently and we get to seeit through their eyes and they
have I wanna call it like apractical or a pragmatic
idealism about them.
That is just a joy.
(32:50):
It's just like no, I'm gonna doall these amazing things and
we're just like I love thatwe're gonna give hope and say
you go and do that and it rubsoff on you.
Dr. Ashanti Chunn (33:00):
I feel like it's kind of like sticks and
kindling, because I don't thinkthat you can be around people
who are energetic and constantlypursuing dreams and telling
themselves that anything ispossible and believing things
that they don't even have areason to believe and not grab
on to some of that hope.
So I think it's a joy for ustoo.
So, yeah, they've definitelytaught me lots of things,
(33:22):
including and maybe I should saythat the biggest thing also,
particularly with our students,is just how much they go through
to make this dream happen.
It is, unfortunately, notunique to hear students tell us
I had a parent die this semester.
You had no idea.
(33:43):
I have parents who areterminally and chronically ill.
I've faced various traumas etc.
Just things that blow you away,and how they continue to
navigate and be strong.
So I think that's what I alsolearned is that they want it and
(34:05):
so they are going forward inspite of so many things that,
understandably, could halt thejourney.
Jennifer Schoen (34:14):
Yeah, yes, there absolutely is that
component as well, and you lookat them in amazement.
For what?
Dr. Ashanti Chunn (34:23):
they do, absolutely.
Jennifer Schoen (34:24):
And go through at 18, 19, 20 years old.
Dr. Ashanti Chunn (34:28):
Right.
Jennifer Schoen (34:29):
They shouldn't have to.
But the handle, yeah, I just, Ilove how you talk about it,
sort of the grace, theself-efficacy, the identity
development and meeting withthem where they are but having
all these amazing things to pullin to then help kind of guide
(34:49):
and direct them.
Dr. Ashanti Chunn (34:50):
Yeah, it has been fun and we have developed
like where we were in 2020.
We were just doing virtualsessions, trying to get them to
answer the email like who isthis?
Go away, it doesn't matter.
But we've done that and we'vegrown to having newsletter and a
podcast of our own and having afirst generation honor society
(35:11):
and doing Instagram liveworkshops and having first gen
celebrations.
So it has grown to a really,really beautiful and, what we
hope, comprehensive space forthem to just celebrate
themselves and get them to go toevery direction.
Jennifer Schoen (35:29):
Yeah, love it, love it, love it.
So tell me, if you had to giveadvice to a high school person
who's working with first genstudents maybe they're in like a
gear up program or avid whatwould you say to them to kind of
help them get ready for takingadvantage of your program or
even thinking about preparingfor college?
Dr. Ashanti Chunn (35:51):
I think I would first say to them you owe
it to yourself to ensure thathow you want to show up in the
world mandates or says that thencollege is a part of that
journey, and the reason why Isay that is it may not be at
this moment.
And so I see a lot of peoplealso that when we begin, you
(36:13):
know, peeling these layers back,you kind of figure out oh, it
sounds like you're saying thatthis wasn't the spot right now,
but perhaps they were doingsomething for someone else or
they've never had theopportunity to sit down and be
asked these questions at thislevel to really understand.
So I would first say just makesure this is the path that you
(36:35):
want to go on right now.
And again, choosing whether ornot it is or isn't isn't a
definitive, terminal statementfor your life.
Just at this moment, based onwhat you want to do, what you
want to pursue, how you want toshow up, what you know about
yourself, what you value, isthis the right next step?
Once you say yes to that, then Ithink I would say to the person
(36:55):
that was working with thatstudent and this was something I
wrote in the notes, we don'tneed your pity, and I say that
even when you're a first-gengrad sometimes.
Sometimes you fool yourselfinto thinking that what this
person needs from you is pity,because oh, they're first-gen
(37:16):
and how are they going to get itdone?
We don't need that.
And so I would say to thestudent you don't need that.
I would say to the worker theydon't need that.
We simply need you, simply needsupport and your commitment as
the worker to be as transparentwith information critical to our
success as possible.
(37:36):
We just need demystification ofthe process, we need the
curtain to be ripped down and weneed you to do everything
within your capacity to affordus equitable access.
And for that student I wouldsay you've already gotten to
this point.
You have every single thinginside of you that you need.
But what you must remember iscollege is not a place for
(37:59):
things to be done alone.
You're going to a place that isbuilt with supports in it,
because we know it's not meantto be done alone.
And something that is ourgreatest strength, but also
possibly our kryptonite, isoften we do a lot of things by
ourselves because we simply knowwe don't have necessarily the
(38:19):
resource that can take us tothat particular place.
Emotionally, they're supportingus, they're doing things with
us.
But as far as just having thatknowledge, they may or may not
have that.
So we kind of get into thislittle box where we tell
ourselves I don't know if I'mgoing to go over there.
And so I would say to thatstudent don't hinder yourself
from these amazing relationships.
Again, that's the sea.
These people are here andthey're a part of the journey
(38:43):
that's going to change your life.
Don't do yourself a disserviceby telling yourself that
strength is measured by how manysuccesses you have alone.
Jennifer Schoen (38:53):
You're right, I'm snapping away at that.
Yeah, I think if I could teachhelp seeking behavior, I would
like say teaching help seekingbehavior, role modeling, help
seeking behavior, absolutely.
I mean, whether you're a,whether you're a high school
educator or a college educator,you can always do that.
(39:15):
And just really supporting andencouraging and recognizing
students when they ask for help,like I'm always just like what
are?
the student emails me a questionlike thank you so much for
reaching out to you know, let'ssee what we can do about this,
and I just think that that kindof encouragement is so necessary
because our students are are soindependent and that they are
(39:39):
used to doing everything ontheir own, and so then, they
college and and they continuethat.
I was a great success in highschool doing it on my own.
I can do it in college, andthat's when they're yeah, and
that's just.
Dr. Ashanti Chunn (39:52):
It's not.
Every stage of life isbenefited by people that are
supportive.
But what you said is also thekey, because nothing is single
sided.
It is also for that high schoolworker or for us, when they get
to us, to positively affirmthat seeking help is a good
thing, because I do hearcountless stories of students
(40:13):
who did try and then they weremet with something that felt as
if it was confirming that theyshould not have sought help,
that they were not right to doso.
So it's something for all of us, wherever we fall in their
spectrum, also to not only tellthem to go out and seek it but
then, when people do seek itfrom us, not do the opposite and
(40:33):
basically smack them on theirhands and say, no, now why are
you asking me?
Or to give it to them in theirtone?
Because in the work that I havedone, I think I've seen more so
amongst the first genpopulation that will just turn
around and go the other way.
I probably shouldn't have askedanyway.
So it's both of those thingsthat you said modeling, that
helps seeking, but also for us,the people that can provide the
(40:56):
service, modeling, theaffirmation of the goodness of
seeking it, making it where theywant to continuously engage
with us.
So all of that is so important.
I think the other thing is justknow that you can.
You just know that you can doit.
You know, imposter syndrome isa very real thing, but you
(41:22):
deserve to be there because theinstitution accepted you.
If they accepted you, you haveto to reconcile in your mind
that you belong in the spacejust as much as anyone else, and
so try very hard to silencethat tape that says it's because
of this or it's because of that, or everyone else has it
(41:44):
together.
And I'm the person that don't,because I can affirm, as I work
primarily with first gen, but Isee a lot of legacy students
because they'll just come in andbe like, well, where is this
thing for me?
Where's the legacy group oncampus?
I know that there are peopleall across that campus who don't
know things, whether they arethe fourth generation to show up
(42:05):
or the first, or are confusedor don't know what to do with
their life.
So don't let the smiles foolyou.
Sometimes Everyone has somelevel of being lost, and so you
serve that space as much asanyone else.
Jennifer Schoen (42:23):
Yeah, yeah.
I think it's really interestingthat when you talk about that
tape, like just eject that tapeand get rid of it, but for our
students they're like what's atape?
So it's like it's streaming.
Cut off that streaming, go toanother channel, right they're
telling you.
We have to come up with newlanguage for the tape thing.
Dr. Ashanti Chunn (42:40):
Yeah, that part is true.
You have brought that to myattention in that Like.
Is that one of those relics Isaw in?
Jennifer Schoen (42:47):
the museum.
That's what I always say yeah,that's what I always say.
Dr. Ashanti Chunn (42:51):
So yeah, I guess take the air pod out of
your ear.
It's a whole change I knowwe're going to have Just a
serious station, yeah.
Jennifer Schoen (42:57):
Well, we'll do a whole dissertation on the
language of the students.
That is very true very true,but my other question for you,
then is, sort of as we'rewrapping up, is if someone if me
or you out there listeningwanted to start a program like
this, what advice would you givethem, ashanti?
Dr. Ashanti Chunn (43:15):
Oh gosh, I think I would say first, first
and foremost, please try to geta read on the population that
you're serving.
If you could do a focus groupor something before you start to
ask the students that you'rewanting to serve what they need,
I think it's critical If we hadit to go back and do all over
again, I think we definitelywould have done more of that.
(43:39):
Figure out what they need sothat your program is in response
to that.
We have studied it and donevarious graduate degrees, et
cetera, and so we know what weknow.
But just like a company that'screating a product for a
consumer, at what point are theygoing to ask the people that
they're making the product forwhat it is that they need or
(44:01):
want from the product?
So start with the student voiceand allow that to be paired
with your expertise in the areato create the program.
But then I think I would say,second, you do not have to
reinvent the wheel.
There are so many gracious,supportive educators at these
higher education institutionswho are willing to tell you what
(44:22):
they are doing, to share theirinformation, and all they simply
ask for is acknowledgement.
Again, that's what we did.
We modified something for TSU,but it was because of the
incredible graciousness of Billand him allowing us to take that
, the wonderful graciousness ofthe University of Oklahoma and
sharing their document with us,other people.
(44:43):
Our method of working withpeople is appreciative, and so
we reached out to Jennifer Bloomat FAU.
Reach out to people and find thethings that answer those things
that your institution needs.
Of course, come up withanything that you want to, but
just know that there's lots ofinformation and help out there
(45:04):
to do that.
So don't be afraid to reach outto your colleagues and get that
help as well.
Also, once you startimplementing, give your own self
grace.
It's not all going to cometogether overnight.
The same grace that we areasking students to give
themselves, we also have toafford us.
But in that same vein, behonest enough with yourself and
(45:26):
kind enough to yourself to admitwhen it's not working, when
you've had enough time toactually see whether or not it
is or isn't, and then just bewilling to pivot.
There is no loss whatsoever inacknowledging, hey, this doesn't
work or parts of this don'twork, let's take it and
reimagine it and do somethingelse.
(45:46):
But I think as long as studentneed and student success is at
the center of what you do, youwill certainly find your way.
Jennifer Schoen (45:58):
Yes, totally agree.
So, Ashanti, if people want toget in touch with you, they're
like, oh my gosh, she said allthese great things, like I need
to follow up with her.
How would they find you?
What's the best place to get intouch with you?
Dr. Ashanti Chunn (46:10):
Yeah, first of all, if they said that I
would want their email addressso I could send them a check,
because that really does a lotfor my self esteem.
But so in order to get thatcheck, they could email me at
a-c-h-u-n-n at t-n-s-t-a-t-eedu,so that's h-i-n at 10stateedu.
(46:31):
If that was hard to remember orwhatnot.
They could simply come towww.10stateedu that's our
homepage for Tennessee StateUniversity and in the search bar
they could type in the firstproject.
We'll be the first result thatcomes up and they're able to
learn more about our project.
They're able to see ourspecialists.
They would be able to see me inschedule a session if they'd
(46:52):
want to talk that way or justget a feel for what we are doing
.
Also, they could follow us onInstagram if they would like, or
Facebook, and we are attsu-underscore-u-first.
Jennifer Schoen (47:20):
Shanti, thank you so much for joining me today
.
It was really a pleasure tohave you and to talk about the
U-1st project.
I wrote notes.
I'll be thinking about some ofthese things that you talked
about and it was a real pleasure, thank you so much.
Thank you for listening.
If you'd like to reach out tome to be a guest or to recommend
(47:40):
a guest, you can email me atgen that's J-E-N at
firstgenfmcom.
My website is firstgenfmcom ifyou're interested in learning
more about my speaking topics.
If you like this episode,please rate and review wherever
you listen.
It helps others to find theshow and it's a nice boost for
(48:02):
me to know you're listening.
Until next week, keep doing theimportant work you do.
Thank you.
Hello, I'm Jennifer Shown, your host for
the First Gen FN podcast.
Please call me Jen.
Each week, I'll share myinsights and ideas, solo or with
a special guest, on creatingopportunities to celebrate and
support the First Gen Collegeand College Bound students we
work with.
My goal with this podcast is toconnect you with other high
(00:30):
school and college educators, toshare our successes and
challenges and create a web ofFirst Gen advocates.
Thank you for joining me today.
Now let's dive into this week'sepisode.
Welcome to First Gen FM.
I'm so excited to have you herelistening Today.
I'm bringing you from TennesseeState and HBCU in Nashville, dr
(00:56):
Ashanti Chun.
She's the assistant director ofthe UFIRST project and I'm
really excited to talk to hertoday about the UFIRST project
because we met at a conference Ibelieve it was the NASPA
conference and we got to talkingabout the UFIRST project and a
class that she runs and a wholebunch of other things.
(01:17):
I'm like, oh, excellent.
So finally we're gettingtogether to talk about the after
a few schedules.
So thanks for coming, ashanti.
I really appreciate it.
Dr. Ashanti Chunn (01:26):
Thank you so much for inviting me and
thinking the information I haveto share is valuable.
I'm happy to be here.
Jennifer Schoen (01:31):
Yeah, absolutely.
What got you into highereducation and specifically
working with First GenerationCollege students?
Dr. Ashanti Chunn (01:38):
What got me into higher education.
I was originally a biologymajor and I was working in a
urology lab and I thought thatwould be a really good fit for
me, and after working there Irealized it wasn't the best
thing, and so I happened to justbe seeking direction, came to
(01:59):
TSU's job website, because TSUwas also where I went for
undergrad and my first graddegree, and so it was really
kind of just a shooting in thedark, hoping that it might be
something, because I also hadprevious educational background,
but it was K through 12.
So I had been a biology teacherat a middle school and in a
high school.
(02:20):
So I was just wondering ifthere might be some sort of
educational opportunity that Ifelt like better served me at
Tennessee State, and so I took achance.
There happened to be a academicadvisor position there for TRIO
Student Support Services, andso I applied for that, was
blessed enough to be hired, andso that allowed me my entry into
(02:44):
higher education andsimultaneously work with first
gen students at the same time.
Jennifer Schoen (02:49):
Wow, that's awesome.
I love talking about how peopleget to where they are, because
so often paths are not linear oh, not at all, and I think many
students still have that idea ofa career ladder and when they
hear stories like this theyrealize it's not necessarily a
career ladder.
But I like to think of it assort of a career jungle gym
(03:12):
where there's lots of differentpaths to get to how you want to
get to where you want to,absolutely.
Dr. Ashanti Chunn (03:17):
I think that just represents the complexity
of people, one of the thingsthat I know we'll talk about
this later but one of the thingsthat comes up a lot in our
sessions, because of what ourframework is with you first, is
who are you and telling yourstory and unpacking the fullness
of that and helping students tounderstand that there are
(03:39):
multiple ways to honor yourself.
That might look like a singlecareer that brings you
fulfillment the entire time.
It might look like jumping frompath to path, and every single
one of those paths is OK, aslong as when you match it back
to the standard of what youbelieve you're in this world to
do, it honors that, and so Ishare my story with students
(04:02):
because I want them to see thatI did K through 12 education and
I think that honored somethingthat I'm very committed to,
which is the betterment of otherpeople's lives.
And then I went to healthcarebecause I value what health is
for people, and again itconnected back to biology, which
I have a passion for.
But then there were just someelements of that particular
career that didn't work for me,and so then I was able to try
(04:24):
again in a different educationalpond and this is the one that
really sticks for me.
But I think giving studentsthat information I almost think
it's a disservice not to,because sometimes they can feel
as if then, or even we give theimpression to people who perhaps
are not college going, that ifa person doesn't stay on a
(04:44):
singular path, that they'vesomehow dishonored the journey
of a degree.
Absolutely not, if in obtainingthat degree they discovered
what their mission was, andevery Lilly pad that they jumped
to honors that.
Jennifer Schoen (04:57):
Yeah, and no knowledge is lost.
Dr. Ashanti Chunn (05:00):
Oh, not at all.
Jennifer Schoen (05:01):
It's.
You never know how you're goingto use the knowledge that you
gained and you think maybe it'snot related, but yet it comes up
later in ways that you can'texpect.
So everything that you learnand how you grow takes you to
where you are now and then goingto next.
So, yeah, I think that'sfantastic, I think that's a nice
segue to into talking about theyou first project.
(05:24):
So can you give us an overviewof what that looks like and
maybe how it got developed?
Dr. Ashanti Chunn (05:31):
Yeah, so the first project is our
university's only comprehensiveundergraduate first gen student
support service.
So we certainly acknowledge thework of trio.
They remain on our campus butof course trio is funded for a
certain number of students andso was able to serve that
population.
But we serve everyundergraduate first generation
(05:52):
student on our campus.
So, ultimately, how that cameto be, my director and myself we
have worked at Tennessee Statefor a while, and so for the trio
I moved to a specific grantfunding that's for HBCUs, which
is title three, and every fiveyears those grants come up for
potential renewal with thesubmission of a proposal to the
(06:13):
Department of Education.
And so it was time to submitsomething else in hope to bring
a new idea to TSU.
And because I was a part oftrio when it started, I knew
when trio ended as far asstudent support services on our
campus, I knew that we didn'thave something else on a large
scale that served a lot of firstgeneration students, and so my
(06:35):
director and I had been talkingabout that and felt like that
was the direction that we neededto go in.
So we sat down and wrote thisproposal and hoped to be able to
service that group of studentsin a meaningful way, and,
ultimately, that is how youfirst came about.
So we have been in existence atTSU since October of 2020,
which is interesting in and ofitself because, if we remember
(06:58):
what 2020 represents, welaunched a brand new program in
the middle of a pandemic, withstudents at home in the middle
of a semester.
So it was a very interestingjourney to bring about, but that
is how you first got started,and so, again, we are a
comprehensive student supportservice for our students, and so
we serve freshmen to seniorstudents, and simply, the way
(07:22):
that works is we have a team ofpeople that we call first
generation specialists, thathave been trained in house
according to the guidelines thatwe have, as well as according
to the framework that we use toserve our students, which is the
life design curriculum, and soeach one of those specialists is
assigned a certain major ormajors, just so that we all
(07:43):
carry a similar number ofstudents on our case load, and
then we are responsible for thefirst generation students on our
campus who have identifiedthemselves as such, who fall
into those majors.
So we are a voluntary program.
We contact every single studentwho does fall into those
categories, but it is up to thestudent to engage with us, and
(08:04):
so, from that and thosescheduling or them taking us up
on our offer, we invite them tocome in and have sessions with
us.
And again, we use this amazingcurriculum called the life
design catalyst framework, andso we use that to as the
curriculum founder terms.
(08:25):
It spark, and that's S-P-A-R-C-Kand that's helping students to
tell their story, identify theirpurpose, identify their
aspirations, reflect on theiractions for that point, identify
who they need to connect andpartner with to make the things
that they want for their lifehappen.
And then a catch phrase that Isay to students after you start
(08:46):
talking, you got to startwalking.
So the K is kickstart.
How do I get into the gear?
What do I do next and now inorder to bring all of those
things full circle?
So that's what takes place ineach one of our sessions.
Ultimately, it is some level ofhelping students to discover
and ignite their spark.
Jennifer Schoen (09:06):
I love that when I listen to this podcast
again, I have a feeling I'mgoing to play that like over and
over again, because I love allthe different steps and I love
that reflection is included.
Oh, I think sometimes we get sobusy doing, and students get so
busy doing, that we don't, wedon't give ourselves time to
reflect, but we especially don'tgive students a chance to
(09:29):
reflect and kind of see backdown the mountain how far
they've come sometimes, versusjust always looking up to where
they wanna go.
Dr. Ashanti Chunn (09:38):
Absolutely.
It's something that our teamreally takes to heart.
It's something when I'm talkingto colleagues of mine, et
cetera, I am encouraging them.
You know what both did.
You say you may not be whereyou want to be, but where are
you now in relationship to whereyou were?
Are you moving forward or areyou moving backward?
How do you feel about that, etcetera.
But I think it's a reallyimportant thing, a gift almost
(09:59):
to give to students, because ourbigger purpose in this is we
want them to have academicsuccess, but, more importantly,
we want them to have lifesuccess, and when we wrote you
first, we were very intentionalabout that.
We value all of the successmetrics that a traditional
institution has retention,credit, completion, you know,
gpa, et cetera.
(10:20):
However, this is a temporarystop on a continuous journey and
if we are going to adequatelyprepare people, especially first
gen individuals, then we haveto provide them with tools that
will equip them to be successfulbeyond this moment.
So the beautiful thing alsoabout life design is it's
(10:44):
applicable at any stage in life.
We do it with ourselves as ateam.
We do it with our students.
I've discussed countless wayswith my team and with the
founder of this about all of thedifferent ways that it could
show up.
And so reflection is soimportant, because there
shouldn't be any point in yourlife where you're not stopping
(11:05):
and saying where am I trying togo and am I on the right path to
get there?
It's an especially awesome giftfor first generation students.
Sometimes, being a first genstudent and now grad myself,
we're very focused on the endgame and we don't necessarily
take the time to give ourselvescredit for things until we feel
(11:28):
like we've gotten to what wesaid the ultimate goal is.
So we reflect in the sense thathey, I'm not where I said I'm
going, so you need to get there,but not necessarily stopping to
take stock of all the beautifulnuggets that are happening in
between or giving ourselvescredit, cause we're like we'll
stop and reflect when we get tothe end game.
We got big goals out here, sothat's kind of where we sit a
(11:52):
lot.
Jennifer Schoen (11:54):
Yeah, I heard a great podcast the other day
that talked also about not justknowing where you're going, but
where you are now, kind ofcomparing it to GPS, like you
can't just put in yourdestination and expect to get
there.
You have to know where you'restarting from before you get the
best route to get there, and Ithink reflection helps to do
(12:14):
that, like where am I right now?
So I love that, I love thecelebration of it, I love the
reflection piece, I love thewhole kickstart.
Like you know, it's great tothink about these things with
that, and then you have to acton them as well.
Yeah, what a great program.
So what are some of the thingsthat you do specifically around
(12:34):
Spark, around the U-firstprogram, and even the life
design course can choose.
What would you like to talkabout in terms of either what
you think the strength of theprogram is or what's some of the
challenges that you've comeacross?
Dr. Ashanti Chunn (12:47):
Sure, I'll do both, if that's okay.
Again, I think the strength isthat number one, my supervisor.
So I have to just give a shoutout the U-first project director
her name is Dr Ceci Abou and Isay this in full honesty is one
of the most visionary andbrilliant minds I've met.
(13:09):
So she's so good about givingme space and thinking bigger
than even what's before us atthe moment.
And so in this, like I said,when we were writing this
proposal, we were like what canwe do that benefits students now
and benefits students later?
(13:30):
And we were fortunate enough tohave been in spaces with both
William Johnson, bill Johnson,who created life design, what we
use and also to be in a spacewith Dr Kathleen Shaysmith from
the University of Oklahoma, andwe had heard wonderful things
that they were doing in bothspaces and realized that there
were elements of both of thosethings that we wanted to combine
(13:52):
and bring to our students.
Bill had created life design ina call from his university, uncg
, to create an advising programfor students.
Well, instead of creating thetraditional advising program, he
created this class what can Ido with my life?
And in what can I do with mylife?
He put together these variousactivities that move students
(14:13):
through these four modulesknowing self, sense of self,
becoming a better you and,basically, who are you.
So these are the four thingsthat students would walk through
as an advisement session, ifyou will, but over the course of
a semester.
And then Kathleen Shaysmith andthe University of Oklahoma had
(14:34):
done this incredible work notspecific to first generation
students, but just reallyimportant work on persistence
themes.
They had done the work tofigure out what are the things
that have to be addressed inorder for students to be able to
continue to move forward inthis journey, and so we pulled
both of those things together.
We do not have a class at ouruniversity, but we were like
(14:55):
what would it look like to turnthis class into sessions and
turn it into a curriculum thatworks with students over the
course of their eight, orpotentially more or less,
semesters during theirmatriculation?
And then how can we bring inalso those things that we know
are important to them and haveto be successfully mastered or
(15:15):
addressed in order for them tokeep coming back?
And so, in our sessions, whatthat looks like is, when we were
writing this proposal, I satdown and basically adapted both
of those things and created anentire eight semester curriculum
for our students For eachsemester, or actually for each
(15:35):
semester, but actually even foreach session.
So what this looks like iswe're saying we try to get
students to come in for threesessions a semester and for each
of those sessions they have avery specific intent that the
specialist is trying to achieve.
So let's say, for instance, inthe very first one we're just
trying to get them to begin torealize the importance of their
(15:58):
story.
So, working with that S, we areengaging in activities where
we're asking them open-endedquestions to get them to tell us
more about themselves.
That evolves into things likeusing elements from Bill's
curriculum where we're gettingthem to engage in personality
assessments.
So they're doing things likeMyers-Briggs, they're doing
(16:18):
things like the Enneagram, andthen we're sitting back and
having this really wonderfulconversation and then really
honing in on, for instance, likethe section with Myers-Briggs
that then talks about possiblecareer paths because of
personality, because what wewant them to see this as is not
disjointedness, it's not oh, Ichoose a major and this is who I
am and this is what I value,but none of those things connect
(16:42):
in any way.
So we are very intentional inthe sessions about life design
being all of those things comingtogether.
Who are you, what do you want?
What do you value?
Where do you feel like that allcombines to make what you
believe to be meaningful work?
(17:02):
So a session again can looklike asking them open-ended
questions or getting them toparticipate in a personality
assessment.
It could look like getting themto create a mission statement
for themselves, creating ameaningful work statement for
themselves.
So what meaningful work lookslike to them?
It looks like values inventory.
(17:24):
Sometimes we literally here'seven one of them.
We have value tags thatphysically, 36 things that they
cut out and they love.
It gives them an opportunity toengage, tactile, et cetera.
But they start out putting theminto significant and
insignificant for them and theyhave to narrow them all the way
(17:44):
down from what's important to 10to five.
And then we talk it through.
And then we talk about okay, asit relates to your major, what
you believe your career outletsare.
How do these values show up?
Are they being honored in thatspace?
Again, it's always thisintentionality where nothing is
done in the box.
So that's essentially whatsessions look like.
(18:07):
Again, ultimately, when we getour way, we see them at least
three times to really havemeaningful conversations.
Some people jump into that andwe see them even more times and
sometimes we have a harder time,which takes me to the challenge
part of it, again.
We are voluntary and we are onan amazing campus that has a lot
of different support resources.
(18:28):
And students are humans, ofcourse, but adults just like any
other, and a lot of us knowthat there are things that we
should have in our life that wedon't necessarily take advantage
of, whether that's the healthcoaching that our insurance
offers us or the financialplanning that we should do, or
just sitting down and writingthe goals that we have for our
own life.
(18:48):
And so, ultimately, that is ourchallenge that we are voluntary
and that we believe in this somuch and know what it can do for
a person.
And sometimes that passion canget you where you even can get
frustrated, like, oh, why don'tthey come in?
Why don't they see me?
I know what it will do for them.
And you cast out your surveyand you get their responses
(19:11):
about what they wish the collegewould do, and then they give
you answers and you're likethat's exactly what we're doing.
We do that right.
We are here doing that right now, and yet I don't see you.
So that's the challenge pieceis to continue to figure out how
to make it Attractive.
The challenge is also beingwilling to be humble.
(19:32):
How does it need to change?
What does it need to?
How does it need to modify,potentially to reflect more of
what they want to see?
Because, as somebody who hasbeen a part of it from the
beginning, in the inception, youknow this is like a baby for me
.
So of course, it can be easy tobe like, no, everything is
(19:53):
exactly like it needs to be.
But stop, a Shanti isn't whatthey need.
You know, when I was doing mydissertation, one of the
theories that I was quoting wassaying that for a support
service on a campus, part ofthat support services
responsibility is to Get peopleto engage.
That, no matter how good thatsupport service is, if they
(20:14):
cannot get people to engage withthem, then they fall flat in
some ways, and so that issomething that we have had to
address.
What do we continue to do?
To diversify our message and tofind ways to Get students more
students, because it wouldcertainly be unfair To say that
people are not.
People are definitely, and theygive us a great quantitative and
(20:36):
qualitative Data back, but wewant more of that, and so the
strength is the framework in thecurriculum and the work that
has been put in to creatingsomething that will serve them
here but at every singlejuncture of their life, because
they can come back in therelater, 20s and 30s and 40s, and
talk about their values.
They can redo their meaningfulwork statement.
(20:57):
They can redo.
So these aren't things that arejust specific to this moment,
but our challenge is we have tohave a product that's attractive
to the people that we're tryingto attract, not just attractive
to us.
How do we bring those twothings together and continue to
innovate with students and thegenerational needs of today and
give them something that theywant?
Jennifer Schoen (21:20):
Right, yes, I love how you put that, because
it's we know things.
We know a lot of things aboutwhat students need, and the
students Sometimes know thingsand what they need, but they're
not sure how to access it, andif it doesn't look interesting
or is not appealing to them,then they're not going to engage
in it, and so that's we have todeliver the goods, but we also
(21:43):
have to tell them about it in away that makes it really easy
for them to access it absolutely.
Yeah.
Dr. Ashanti Chunn (21:49):
I agree Absolutely.
Jennifer Schoen (21:50):
Hey, I was when you were talking.
So you have a class that you dofor this and then does your do
your advising sessions kind ofmirror the class, like if you
meet with a student one-on-one,you know what particular class
and what stage they're at inSpark, and so then you, you do
your.
You know you're holisticadvising around that.
Dr. Ashanti Chunn (22:11):
So we, our team, does teach a class, but
the class is not related to lifedesign.
We just happen to teach afreshman University seminar
class.
So we follow the curriculumthat the university has for that
build the creator.
When he was delivering it, hedelivered it as a class at his
institution but we didn't getthat.
(22:32):
So our strictly happens in thesessions.
So, a specialist because Iwould be assigned, let's say to
you, I know exactly where youare, because, of course, we're
also using our studentinformation platform to document
our sessions.
So every time you come back, Iknow where you are.
And so, again, since I havewritten a pretty structured
curriculum as well, it isliterally like an educators
(22:52):
lesson plan.
So if you came in for sessionone, you would see you know the
topic and the intent and themethodology, so what activities
you would be covering then.
And then you're able to pullthat back out Like, oh, this is
Jennifer's third one, okay,she's on this, so we're going to
this now.
Of course, we're always givingspace because these are student
sessions to first address whatis it that you want to talk
(23:14):
about today, always giving spaceto that.
If the student doesn't havesomething, then we ask for
permission.
I've got a couple things I'dlike to talk about today.
So is it okay that we go there?
So then we fall back into thecurriculum that we have.
But so we know where thatstudent is, because it's not
Really happening in that classjust because we're all Trained
(23:35):
in like design.
There certainly are someelements that probably come out
in our university seminar class,but that is not what that
class's focus is.
So we use our studentinformation system and our notes
to know where each student is,even you know, as they sometimes
go between specialists, becauseof course you'll have a major
change etc.
So you just pull up all of thatstudent's file and you're able
(23:56):
to see where they are and thenLeave them with the next space
and sometimes, because Iwouldn't want to want to get the
wrong impression, even thoughwe have this structured
curriculum, we also give umspace and grace to specialists
as the trained professionals inthe room to know where students
need to go based on what they'resaying.
So if something from year two,session two, seems like the next
(24:18):
thing that needs to happen,even though the student is year
one, semester four, then grabthat thing, pull that up,
because you know sometimes I'llget a student and they walk in
and they're like I have to knowwhat it is I'm gonna do with my
life, like I have wasted toomuch time and I don't know.
And you know, even though Ihave a build up, you know, as
far as the story and the perfectto get them to a place, then
(24:39):
sometimes I realize I have aCaptive person in front of me
who, if they don't get somethingtangible in that moment,
they're going to mentally checkout because they don't have what
they need.
So then that makes me go intothe curriculum and grab what I
need for that moment To get themto a space where they can walk
away with with what they saythey want to have.
So there's certainlyflexibility in that as well.
(25:01):
But yes ours happens withsessions.
Jennifer Schoen (25:03):
Yeah, so so you have the session and a plan,
but you also let the studentlead.
Absolutely they need at themoment.
Dr. Ashanti Chunn (25:11):
Yeah, absolutely so.
You know, in session one, whenwe're also telling them, because
we're letting them tell theirstory, but we're also explaining
to them what you first is,because if we want them to come
back, of course they need tounderstand what this is.
So they're understanding thatthis is what we'd like to happen
, but in every given moment,these are yours.
We can switch it up.
This is what we're doing.
(25:31):
So they know, and we reaffirmeach time they come into the
space what is it?
You know that you want to do,what do you want to have happen?
And I think it's the importantbalance.
They trust us as theprofessionals in the room, that
we do have some ideas and plansand are equipped To help them
get where they want to go, butthey are the expert of their
lives.
So we don't run the show, wejust help facilitate the process
(25:55):
that you say that you want togo through.
So tell us what you want tohave happen.
Yeah yeah, and I didn't mention.
I mentioned persistence thingsa bit, but let me come back to
that just so it makes a littlebit more sense.
Persistence themes that theyidentified are things like
health and resiliency, umfinancial confidence, um Major
(26:16):
to career design, just thoseelements that you can look at a
person and they have friends,etc.
But let's say that the healthand resiliency piece isn't where
it needs to be.
They're feeling homesick,they're not feeling confident,
they don't feel that they havethe efficacy to To sustain this
path.
Then things can be going well,visibly, as far as what we see,
or we could be having great lifedesign conversations, but
(26:37):
they're they're elements thatare not being hit at the level
they need to in order to sustaintheir return.
So how we work those in often isum Just simply open and really
great open-ended questions froma document that the university
of oklahoma created.
So they have, uh, open-endedquestions that almost look
progressive, almost like levelsof Of growth for each one of
(26:59):
those persistence themes, and sosometimes we just have our book
open and we'll just throw outsome of those um.
Have you experienced moments ofhomesick, sickness or feelings
of not belonging this semester?
If you have talked about, talkabout those and how you walk
through them.
So just some intentionality onplacing those things there,
because you can be very focusedon a particular Topic or context
(27:21):
for the sessions and thenrealize that you have somebody
sitting in front of you that'sstruggling with some other
things.
They're answering all thequestions, right, but they don't
know where the money's gonnacome from for next semester, so
they're gonna walk out the doorand not return.
So again, it's a perfectmarriage between those things
too that happen in our sessions.
Jennifer Schoen (27:36):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So what are some things thatyou've learned from students
over over the the times, theyears that you've been doing
this?
Both right, you know, duringthe pandemic and post, yeah, um
what are some things that I havelearned?
Dr. Ashanti Chunn (27:51):
First, I think that, literally just like
everybody else, you can needsomething and not know how to
integrate that into your life.
Or you can know some thingsabout yourself but still need
some reassurance or affirmationthat what you know is what you
know, what I love in one sessionin particular.
(28:12):
Again, I typically always leavethem through personality
assessments, ask them if they'reopen.
They're so funny because whenyou get to the end, they they
treat you like some magic genieor something.
How do you know those thingsabout me?
I'm like I don't actually knowanything other than what you're
telling me.
You answered all the questionsand just because I've had the
(28:33):
opportunity to do this enough,I'm able to lead the
conversation.
But no magic eight ball,nothing behind the scenes.
Um, you know the answers and soit's.
It's just beautiful when theyanswer you know, authentically,
truthfully, and then they'relike that is right, that is how
I engage in relationships, etc.
And so that's what I mean whenI'm saying sometimes you know
what you know, but you needaffirmation that what you know
(28:55):
is true.
Um, so things like that helpand we do a series of
assessments again so that theydon't feel like it's a singular
thing.
You know, we do a valuesassessment, we do the idiot
grand, we do the personalityassessment.
Um, what else did?
I Learned from them that thisidentity in general, um, it
strikes people in different ways.
(29:15):
Some people don't feel thisautomatic pride About being
first gen and we have to givespace for that as well.
Sometimes we will talk topeople.
They understand our definition,they know what we're saying and
they are like, hey, I don'twant it, I don't consider myself
first gen and remove myselffrom your communication.
You have to take that, you haveto like yes, you're trying to
(29:37):
convey something to them abouthow it's a beautiful thing and
it's pride and it's the thestart of a legacy, but you have
to honor where they feel in thatjourney.
Um, also, I think I would sayjust that remembering it's just
a lot to navigate.
Whether they are quote unquotetraditional, going college age
(29:59):
or non traditional, there arejust so many elements that are
in the air.
Every semester brings differentcourses and new personalities
and you have to tap back in andset goals, and so it's a really
fluid time and some moments,just like with any other adult,
they feel like they're on top ofthe world, and so you see them
more and you get more from them,and sometimes they do not, and
(30:23):
I can't and I talk to the team,we can't take that personally.
We have to show up in the sameway, steal and try to provide as
much affirmation andreassurance as possible for
something that is difficult.
It is certainly doable, but itshouldn't be lost on us, just
because we've gotten a degree,that this is a tough thing to do
(30:44):
, because life keeps happeningwhile you're doing it.
It doesn't stop for college,and so sometimes all of us have
experienced moments where wewant to press pause on
everything else to get one thingright, and life does not afford
us that beautiful opportunity.
So to remember that and to bekind to them because, again,
(31:05):
standing on this side, sometimesas the educator or the support
service or what not, you want tobe like come on, we gotta do
this, we gotta get together, youcan do it, it's gonna be okay.
They may not feel that or knowthat or whatever the case is.
They just have to offer grace.
Now you hold accountable towhat they say they want, but you
(31:26):
offer them a lot of grace, sothey constantly teach me that
and remind me of that and alsojust the joy of seeing the world
with fresh eyes.
Sometimes it sounds crazy likein our university 1000 class.
We have them do a budget andtell us what they think they're
gonna make and all of theseother things, and you see these
numbers like well, you must notbe going into education.
(31:49):
But also you realize it's notyours to take and to diminish
and tell them what can't be.
Anything is possible and we aresupposed to be the strongest
hope dealers and advocates thatthere are.
(32:10):
So it is a blessing to be able.
So what I learned from them toois they see it fresh and they
don't necessarily care that youdon't think it's possible and I
don't know that that's such abad idea?
Jennifer Schoen (32:24):
No, I mean, we are working with people who are
gonna change the world.
Dr. Ashanti Chunn (32:27):
Absolutely.
Jennifer Schoen (32:28):
We don't know how or when, but that's the gift
that we get right, and I agreewith you that they see the world
differently and we get to seeit through their eyes and they
have I wanna call it like apractical or a pragmatic
idealism about them.
That is just a joy.
(32:50):
It's just like no, I'm gonna doall these amazing things and
we're just like I love thatwe're gonna give hope and say
you go and do that and it rubsoff on you.
Dr. Ashanti Chunn (33:00):
I feel like it's kind of like sticks and
kindling, because I don't thinkthat you can be around people
who are energetic and constantlypursuing dreams and telling
themselves that anything ispossible and believing things
that they don't even have areason to believe and not grab
on to some of that hope.
So I think it's a joy for ustoo.
So, yeah, they've definitelytaught me lots of things,
(33:22):
including and maybe I should saythat the biggest thing also,
particularly with our students,is just how much they go through
to make this dream happen.
It is, unfortunately, notunique to hear students tell us
I had a parent die this semester.
You had no idea.
(33:43):
I have parents who areterminally and chronically ill.
I've faced various traumas etc.
Just things that blow you away,and how they continue to
navigate and be strong.
So I think that's what I alsolearned is that they want it and
(34:05):
so they are going forward inspite of so many things that,
understandably, could halt thejourney.
Jennifer Schoen (34:14):
Yeah, yes, there absolutely is that
component as well, and you lookat them in amazement.
For what?
Dr. Ashanti Chunn (34:23):
they do, absolutely.
Jennifer Schoen (34:24):
And go through at 18, 19, 20 years old.
Dr. Ashanti Chunn (34:28):
Right.
Jennifer Schoen (34:29):
They shouldn't have to.
But the handle, yeah, I just, Ilove how you talk about it,
sort of the grace, theself-efficacy, the identity
development and meeting withthem where they are but having
all these amazing things to pullin to then help kind of guide
(34:49):
and direct them.
Dr. Ashanti Chunn (34:50):
Yeah, it has been fun and we have developed
like where we were in 2020.
We were just doing virtualsessions, trying to get them to
answer the email like who isthis?
Go away, it doesn't matter.
But we've done that and we'vegrown to having newsletter and a
podcast of our own and having afirst generation honor society
(35:11):
and doing Instagram liveworkshops and having first gen
celebrations.
So it has grown to a really,really beautiful and, what we
hope, comprehensive space forthem to just celebrate
themselves and get them to go toevery direction.
Jennifer Schoen (35:29):
Yeah, love it, love it, love it.
So tell me, if you had to giveadvice to a high school person
who's working with first genstudents maybe they're in like a
gear up program or avid whatwould you say to them to kind of
help them get ready for takingadvantage of your program or
even thinking about preparingfor college?
Dr. Ashanti Chunn (35:51):
I think I would first say to them you owe
it to yourself to ensure thathow you want to show up in the
world mandates or says that thencollege is a part of that
journey, and the reason why Isay that is it may not be at
this moment.
And so I see a lot of peoplealso that when we begin, you
(36:13):
know, peeling these layers back,you kind of figure out oh, it
sounds like you're saying thatthis wasn't the spot right now,
but perhaps they were doingsomething for someone else or
they've never had theopportunity to sit down and be
asked these questions at thislevel to really understand.
So I would first say just makesure this is the path that you
(36:35):
want to go on right now.
And again, choosing whether ornot it is or isn't isn't a
definitive, terminal statementfor your life.
Just at this moment, based onwhat you want to do, what you
want to pursue, how you want toshow up, what you know about
yourself, what you value, isthis the right next step?
Once you say yes to that, then Ithink I would say to the person
(36:55):
that was working with thatstudent and this was something I
wrote in the notes, we don'tneed your pity, and I say that
even when you're a first-gengrad sometimes.
Sometimes you fool yourselfinto thinking that what this
person needs from you is pity,because oh, they're first-gen
(37:16):
and how are they going to get itdone?
We don't need that.
And so I would say to thestudent you don't need that.
I would say to the worker theydon't need that.
We simply need you, simply needsupport and your commitment as
the worker to be as transparentwith information critical to our
success as possible.
(37:36):
We just need demystification ofthe process, we need the
curtain to be ripped down and weneed you to do everything
within your capacity to affordus equitable access.
And for that student I wouldsay you've already gotten to
this point.
You have every single thinginside of you that you need.
But what you must remember iscollege is not a place for
(37:59):
things to be done alone.
You're going to a place that isbuilt with supports in it,
because we know it's not meantto be done alone.
And something that is ourgreatest strength, but also
possibly our kryptonite, isoften we do a lot of things by
ourselves because we simply knowwe don't have necessarily the
(38:19):
resource that can take us tothat particular place.
Emotionally, they're supportingus, they're doing things with
us.
But as far as just having thatknowledge, they may or may not
have that.
So we kind of get into thislittle box where we tell
ourselves I don't know if I'mgoing to go over there.
And so I would say to thatstudent don't hinder yourself
from these amazing relationships.
Again, that's the sea.
These people are here andthey're a part of the journey
(38:43):
that's going to change your life.
Don't do yourself a disserviceby telling yourself that
strength is measured by how manysuccesses you have alone.
Jennifer Schoen (38:53):
You're right, I'm snapping away at that.
Yeah, I think if I could teachhelp seeking behavior, I would
like say teaching help seekingbehavior, role modeling, help
seeking behavior, absolutely.
I mean, whether you're a,whether you're a high school
educator or a college educator,you can always do that.
(39:15):
And just really supporting andencouraging and recognizing
students when they ask for help,like I'm always just like what
are?
the student emails me a questionlike thank you so much for
reaching out to you know, let'ssee what we can do about this,
and I just think that that kindof encouragement is so necessary
because our students are are soindependent and that they are
(39:39):
used to doing everything ontheir own, and so then, they
college and and they continuethat.
I was a great success in highschool doing it on my own.
I can do it in college, andthat's when they're yeah, and
that's just.
Dr. Ashanti Chunn (39:52):
It's not.
Every stage of life isbenefited by people that are
supportive.
But what you said is also thekey, because nothing is single
sided.
It is also for that high schoolworker or for us, when they get
to us, to positively affirmthat seeking help is a good
thing, because I do hearcountless stories of students
(40:13):
who did try and then they weremet with something that felt as
if it was confirming that theyshould not have sought help,
that they were not right to doso.
So it's something for all of us, wherever we fall in their
spectrum, also to not only tellthem to go out and seek it but
then, when people do seek itfrom us, not do the opposite and
(40:33):
basically smack them on theirhands and say, no, now why are
you asking me?
Or to give it to them in theirtone?
Because in the work that I havedone, I think I've seen more so
amongst the first genpopulation that will just turn
around and go the other way.
I probably shouldn't have askedanyway.
So it's both of those thingsthat you said modeling, that
helps seeking, but also for us,the people that can provide the
(40:56):
service, modeling, theaffirmation of the goodness of
seeking it, making it where theywant to continuously engage
with us.
So all of that is so important.
I think the other thing is justknow that you can.
You just know that you can doit.
You know, imposter syndrome isa very real thing, but you
(41:22):
deserve to be there because theinstitution accepted you.
If they accepted you, you haveto to reconcile in your mind
that you belong in the spacejust as much as anyone else, and
so try very hard to silencethat tape that says it's because
of this or it's because of that, or everyone else has it
(41:44):
together.
And I'm the person that don't,because I can affirm, as I work
primarily with first gen, but Isee a lot of legacy students
because they'll just come in andbe like, well, where is this
thing for me?
Where's the legacy group oncampus?
I know that there are peopleall across that campus who don't
know things, whether they arethe fourth generation to show up
(42:05):
or the first, or are confusedor don't know what to do with
their life.
So don't let the smiles foolyou.
Sometimes Everyone has somelevel of being lost, and so you
serve that space as much asanyone else.
Jennifer Schoen (42:23):
Yeah, yeah.
I think it's really interestingthat when you talk about that
tape, like just eject that tapeand get rid of it, but for our
students they're like what's atape?
So it's like it's streaming.
Cut off that streaming, go toanother channel, right they're
telling you.
We have to come up with newlanguage for the tape thing.
Dr. Ashanti Chunn (42:40):
Yeah, that part is true.
You have brought that to myattention in that Like.
Is that one of those relics Isaw in?
Jennifer Schoen (42:47):
the museum.
That's what I always say yeah,that's what I always say.
Dr. Ashanti Chunn (42:51):
So yeah, I guess take the air pod out of
your ear.
It's a whole change I knowwe're going to have Just a
serious station, yeah.
Jennifer Schoen (42:57):
Well, we'll do a whole dissertation on the
language of the students.
That is very true very true,but my other question for you,
then is, sort of as we'rewrapping up, is if someone if me
or you out there listeningwanted to start a program like
this, what advice would you givethem, ashanti?
Dr. Ashanti Chunn (43:15):
Oh gosh, I think I would say first, first
and foremost, please try to geta read on the population that
you're serving.
If you could do a focus groupor something before you start to
ask the students that you'rewanting to serve what they need,
I think it's critical If we hadit to go back and do all over
again, I think we definitelywould have done more of that.
(43:39):
Figure out what they need sothat your program is in response
to that.
We have studied it and donevarious graduate degrees, et
cetera, and so we know what weknow.
But just like a company that'screating a product for a
consumer, at what point are theygoing to ask the people that
they're making the product forwhat it is that they need or
(44:01):
want from the product?
So start with the student voiceand allow that to be paired
with your expertise in the areato create the program.
But then I think I would say,second, you do not have to
reinvent the wheel.
There are so many gracious,supportive educators at these
higher education institutionswho are willing to tell you what
(44:22):
they are doing, to share theirinformation, and all they simply
ask for is acknowledgement.
Again, that's what we did.
We modified something for TSU,but it was because of the
incredible graciousness of Billand him allowing us to take that
, the wonderful graciousness ofthe University of Oklahoma and
sharing their document with us,other people.
(44:43):
Our method of working withpeople is appreciative, and so
we reached out to Jennifer Bloomat FAU.
Reach out to people and find thethings that answer those things
that your institution needs.
Of course, come up withanything that you want to, but
just know that there's lots ofinformation and help out there
(45:04):
to do that.
So don't be afraid to reach outto your colleagues and get that
help as well.
Also, once you startimplementing, give your own self
grace.
It's not all going to cometogether overnight.
The same grace that we areasking students to give
themselves, we also have toafford us.
But in that same vein, behonest enough with yourself and
(45:26):
kind enough to yourself to admitwhen it's not working, when
you've had enough time toactually see whether or not it
is or isn't, and then just bewilling to pivot.
There is no loss whatsoever inacknowledging, hey, this doesn't
work or parts of this don'twork, let's take it and
reimagine it and do somethingelse.
(45:46):
But I think as long as studentneed and student success is at
the center of what you do, youwill certainly find your way.
Jennifer Schoen (45:58):
Yes, totally agree.
So, Ashanti, if people want toget in touch with you, they're
like, oh my gosh, she said allthese great things, like I need
to follow up with her.
How would they find you?
What's the best place to get intouch with you?
Dr. Ashanti Chunn (46:10):
Yeah, first of all, if they said that I
would want their email addressso I could send them a check,
because that really does a lotfor my self esteem.
But so in order to get thatcheck, they could email me at
a-c-h-u-n-n at t-n-s-t-a-t-eedu,so that's h-i-n at 10stateedu.
(46:31):
If that was hard to remember orwhatnot.
They could simply come towww.10stateedu that's our
homepage for Tennessee StateUniversity and in the search bar
they could type in the firstproject.
We'll be the first result thatcomes up and they're able to
learn more about our project.
They're able to see ourspecialists.
They would be able to see me inschedule a session if they'd
(46:52):
want to talk that way or justget a feel for what we are doing
.
Also, they could follow us onInstagram if they would like, or
Facebook, and we are attsu-underscore-u-first.
Jennifer Schoen (47:20):
Shanti, thank you so much for joining me today
.
It was really a pleasure tohave you and to talk about the
U-1st project.
I wrote notes.
I'll be thinking about some ofthese things that you talked
about and it was a real pleasure, thank you so much.
Thank you for listening.
If you'd like to reach out tome to be a guest or to recommend
(47:40):
a guest, you can email me atgen that's J-E-N at
firstgenfmcom.
My website is firstgenfmcom ifyou're interested in learning
more about my speaking topics.
If you like this episode,please rate and review wherever
you listen.
It helps others to find theshow and it's a nice boost for
(48:02):
me to know you're listening.
Until next week, keep doing theimportant work you do.
Thank you.
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