December 17, 2024 • 46 mins
What happens when a first-generation college graduate transforms her experiences into a powerful memoir? Dr. La'Tonya "LT" Rease Miles joins me on FirstGen FM to share how a simple conversation with her daughter Zoe and an inspiring interview with Erica Alfaro sparked the creation of her memoir, "Smart Girl." LT describes how writing allowed her to reflect on pivotal moments and gain deeper insights into her own story. Her narrative unfolds through thematic chapters, capturing the essence of first-gen challenges and triumphs that shaped her journey.
LT shares about reconnecting with influential figures from her past, each playing a crucial role in her self-discovery. From her experiences on the cheerleading team to the guidance of Coach Marsh, LT reveals how these connections challenged her insecurities and helped redefine her understanding of identity and support. With a disciplined writing process that spanned over two years, LT not only tells her story but also pays homage to those around her, highlighting the unique dynamics of first-generation education pathways.
Exciting things are on the horizon with the upcoming launch of the "Smart Girl" podcast in 2025. LT is teaming up with Professor Samantha Pinto to dig deeper into the memoir's themes, promising engaging conversations with insightful guests. As the book prepares for release, LT enthusiastically invites listeners to engage with her on social media, share ideas for podcast topics, and even suggest cities for her upcoming tour. With hopes to visit Boston and dreams of catching a Celtics game, LT is ready to connect with the first-gen community, sparking a vibrant dialogue around the her story and the stories that define us together.
For more about La'Tonya "LT" Rease Miles
https://www.latonyareasemiles.com/about
https://www.linkedin.com/in/latonyareasemiles/
Please help others find this podcast by rating and reviewing wherever you listen!
You can find me at https://www.firstgenfm.com/ and on LinkedIn. My email is jen@firstgenfm.com.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Welcome and welcome back to the First Gen FM podcast
, where we high school andcollege educators strengthen,
celebrate and supportfirst-generation college and
college-bound students.
I'm Jennifer Schoen, your host.
Please call me Jen.
I'd love it if you could leavea review and a rating for this
podcast to help other educatorsfind us.
Thank you so much for takingthe time to do that.
(00:27):
Now let's dive into this week'sepisode.
In this episode, we're going tobe talking to Dr LaTanya LT
Reese-Miles.
Lt is a first-generationcollege graduate and thought
leader in higher educationaround first-generation research
and programs.
She's the founder of a veryactive Facebook page empowering
(00:48):
first-generation collegestudents, the creator of First
Gen and Juice, which is anawesome blog and Instagram page,
and she currently works inpartnership development at ReUp
Education.
Now, if you've met LT, you knowabout her love of first-gen
narratives in comics and popculture, her fondness for the
Celtics and her excitement aboutwhat we're going to talk about
(01:12):
today her new memoir, smart Girl.
So let's jump in.
I am here with LaTanya ReeseMiles LT.
To all the cool people and LT,thanks for joining me on the
First Gen FM podcast.
I'm so excited to talk to youabout your book.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
I'm so excited to be here.
This is like breaking news youget to break the story, jen, so
I'm super excited for this.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
I know People are going to pick up the AP.
He's going to be calling mepicking up the story.
Just love it.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
Put it out there in the universe.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
That's right, that's right.
But you know, my first questionis so did you just wake up and
say I'm going to write a memoir?
How did you decide to startthat?
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Oh my gosh, Absolutely not.
You know it's funny becauseit's a bit of a cliche, but
absolutely true that you know Iwas.
I didn't think of myself as Imean, I think of myself as a
writer, but I never thoughtabout writing my own story.
You know, I absolutely am likea cheerleader for others and
(02:18):
always, always encouraging otherpeople to tell their story.
However, my daughter, littleZoe God bless her it was like a
metaphorical finger poking me.
He's like you really shouldtell your story.
Why aren't you telling yourstory?
Your story's so interesting.
And I was like no one wants toread about me, right?
So I had her voice in the backof my head.
But, jen, I would say thetipping point came when I was
(02:40):
doing an interview very muchlike this one with Erica Alfaro,
who was a nominee for theCatalyst Awards that I started
and her memoir Harvesting Dreamswas nominated for Best Memoir,
and we were having a reallygreat conversation on Instagram
and she said you know, latanya,you should tell the story that
(03:02):
you wish you had and that Icredit that moment, that
conversation, for the that wasabout two years ago, for the,
the, the impetus that really hadme.
Okay, let me sit down and writethis.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
Yeah, that's fantastic.
Shout out to Erica that's right, we'll have to tag her in this
so she knows that she's gettingsome credit here.
I love that, I love that and Isome credit here.
I love that.
I love that.
And I imagine that sometimes itwas a labor of love and
sometimes you were.
Why am I writing this?
Speaker 2 (03:33):
okay, truthfully, I did not have a moment of why am
I writing it?
Once I did not.
Once I kind of got over, gotover that little, got over it
right and started writing.
It was therapeutic, it wasactually fun.
Now it was hard work at thesame time, because it requires a
(03:59):
lot of discipline.
We can come back to this, butit was one of the things I did
learn about myself and I thatwas.
We can come back to this, butit was one of the things I did
learn about myself.
But I did not really have amoment, once I sort of got got
into the rhythm of it, ofdoubting it.
It was to the point where I waslike you know what, even if no
one read it, I'm still happyabout it.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
So I just kept going yeah, can I ask you this sort of
as?
As you were writing it, did youfind you went chronologically,
or did things pop into your headand be like, oh, I remember
that?
Speaker 2 (04:35):
no, definitely not chronologically, because, um,
more of like the, what youdescribed, more of the, the
latter thing.
So what I did?
So I had an editor, by the way,who was a Genesis shout out to
Genesis.
She was more like a thoughtpartner, to be honest and she
and I sat down and she asked melike, what is this book?
(04:57):
You know, because there'sdifferent ways of writing a
memoir.
So for me it was about metelling my origin story.
Not all the things I created,not first to go, not the classes
I created, it's the things thatsort of got me to that point.
(05:17):
So I really wanted to stickwith how I was feeling in the
moment.
A lot of the times I'm, youknow, pretty young, my first 20
years of living, and so I waspretty much focused on that.
And then, okay, now I forgotyour question.
Oh, the writing.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
Oh, I know how did you like organize yourself.
Speaker 2 (05:40):
So then, knowing that , knowing that right, I had to
think of these tentpole momentsin my educational journey of
like, okay, what was impactfulfor me?
So I had an outline, but Ididn't necessarily write it in
chronological order.
I actually didn't write it inchronological order, they were
just whatever felt right was, orwhen I got something moved me,
(06:03):
I like, okay, I gotta, let mewrite that down.
Yeah, well, and then there's a,a chapter I wrote fairly
recently.
I had to like I had to plug ahole.
There was like a, like a, acontent gap and I was like, oh,
I need something right here.
But it's like in the middle ofthe book.
It's going to appear in themiddle of the book.
(06:24):
So, yeah, it's pretty.
It's actually very difficult towrite in chronological order.
Speaker 1 (06:30):
Yeah, I, I well, my brain personally doesn't think
like that.
I would think of themes, andand then themes and then
different things around me wouldremind me of like, oh, I need
to think about that and go back.
Speaker 2 (06:41):
Absolutely.
That's exactly what happenedfor sure.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
It's.
You know, you said somethingthere that made me wonder.
As an educator pickingeducation sort of as some of
your tentpoles, your educationaljourney seems like the perfect
thing for you, yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
Well, I mean, there's so many, like I said, there's
so many ways to write it.
You know, I'm like 99% of theway done and looking at the
entire thing now.
There's so many other pathwaysand avenues I could have taken,
but you know, I chose this one.
I'm really happy with it.
Yeah, there's, the focus, forsure, is on my school trajectory
(07:23):
and I think I just want to letpeople know who want to know
well, how did you start first togo at UCLA?
That's another book, that's notthis book.
Speaker 1 (07:33):
Well, like you said, this is your origin story.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
This is my origin story.
Yes, this is how I got there.
That explains my pedagogy, myapproach, my philosophy and all
that.
But I'm very much in the moment, writing as I thought and felt,
you know, as a teenager and asa 20 something, and I stick in
(07:57):
that mode.
I'm not it's not criticalessays.
I'm not commenting on what Iexperienced.
I'm describing what Iexperienced and how I felt.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
Yeah, yeah.
And I mean how perfect for that, how perfect is that for you to
call it an origin story, givenall that you like with the pop
culture and the flash and all ofthat, to have your own origin
story?
Speaker 2 (08:21):
That was well.
People will see there are anumber of different themes, so
let me give the English majorwarning so all of my degrees are
in literature folks and so I'mvery conscious of illusions and
themes, and superheroes is oneof them.
(08:42):
Mobility is another them, uh,mobility is another, like
transportation, mobility, um,and so there's some metaphors in
here and most I would sayprobably most of them are
intentional, not unintentionalyeah, yeah, I love that, I love
that.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
That's.
I mean, that's just so much funto unpack, I think as you would
get a big kick out of it.
As an English major Yay, youknow, I'm all in.
I think that sitting down towrite a memoir would be just an
amazing experience, and what Iwonder for you is, sort of as
you reflected on your life, towrite the pieces and to come up
(09:20):
with the tent poles, were thereany surprises for you in kind of
what you uncovered as youreflected and wrote?
Speaker 2 (09:27):
Yeah.
So, oh man, I approached thislike as a first gen, just like I
did anything else, which waslike I got to figure this out by
myself.
Let me not talk to anyone.
That was so silly when I thinkabout it.
But there was this, this momentit was like been repeated in my
life where I felt like I wouldbe cheating if I reached out to
(09:50):
someone in my family to orwhoever to like um back, check
or just check in with them.
You know, I was like no, I needto like do this all on my own,
which was pretty silly.
But once I reached out I thinkit first started with LaShawn,
who is a pivotal character inthe chapter Top of the Pyramid I
(10:16):
reached out to her long, long,long time friend I've known
LaShawn since we were 12 yearsold and told her I was writing
this book and sent the chapterto her.
I mean, no, before I sent thechat, we were just talking about
our experience and it was justso beautiful to not just to
(10:36):
reconnect and also hear herperspective, you know, and I
think I felt like, if I did it,that I needed to only have my
perspective right.
Um, and then that led me tofollow up with Angie, who was
another critical person in thatin that chapter.
I hadn't talked to Angie insince high school, you know, and
(10:58):
I reached out to her onLinkedIn I'm sorry, on, uh,
facebook and she gave gave me areally different take on how I
felt about cheer.
All this time.
Before I wrote this chapter Iwas thinking I literally thought
I was only picked for thecheerleading team because I was
(11:21):
smart.
And she challenged that Likewhen I talked to her recently
she was like you know, that wasyou in your head, that was your
insecurity, you know.
So all that to say, I was stillgoing through first gen thing
things and writing it had a veryfirst gen, had a very like
solitary approach, moments ofimposter syndrome still cropping
(11:45):
up and then just slaying thosebattle, the uh um, slaying those
dragons, I should say along theway, um.
And I discovered that Iactually have a lot of
discipline once I got into it'slike people say, it's like
running, you know, I would getup around the same time and
(12:06):
write around the same time whenI first started and it took over
two years and I just had todevelop that muscle like, ok,
I'm going to write, I'm going towrite for an hour or 30 minutes
.
I think I started 30 minutes.
I'm just going to write and letme tell you, you do that over
and, over and over again and youend up with 65000 words, or
(12:26):
whatever it is.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
Yeah, that's amazing and that makes a lot of sense.
Having read that chapter, thattalking to Angie gave you kind
of more information that helpedyou see that in some ways you
followed in her footsteps interms of the same path that she
took the alternate to the togetting on the first team or
(12:49):
whatever the varsity and I didnot know those things?
Speaker 2 (12:52):
I did not.
She told me more about herstory, right, and so I was able
to incorporate that, and that'sanother another.
I don't know if that's whatmakes it unique In some ways.
I do think it is that I amtelling my first-gen origin
story, but I'm also deliberatelytelling the stories of other
people around me, many of whomwould have been first-gen to
(13:16):
college.
Many of them did not go, butthat was important, or did not
complete one or the other, butthat was really important.
That I talk about other peopletoo, okay.
Speaker 1 (13:30):
So the chapter that I read was your.
I think it was your middleschool experience, right, and
being a cheerleader and what allthat meant, and the football
coach who turned out to be quitekind of amazing and impactful.
You know you kind of go andimpactful.
Oh yes, you know you kind of goin expecting a little bit of
the stereotype and it sort ofstarts out that way.
(13:51):
But all of a sudden, you knowhe blossoms too and it's like
whoa.
But in that time were peopletalking about first gen.
Was that anywhere in your likeknowledge base at that point?
Speaker 2 (14:03):
Absolutely not, absolutely not, absolutely not.
I mean, you know, this book isalso for Gen X, for those of us
who are of a certain generationwhere lots of us were in college
but absolutely not using thatlanguage, not known even
beneficiaries of programs likeTRIO and things like that, and
(14:25):
still not knowing we were firstgen.
So no, that language was not.
I didn't hear first gen until Iwas in my doctoral program and
someone told me I was first gen.
So decades later, but, um, Iwill say so I went to the same
(14:50):
high school, tc Williams.
You know there's a movie,remember the titans?
yes, um but let me tell you thatstory about coach marsh, I
would argue would make a bettermovie, because imagine this, you
know, imagine that the um, theactor who played coach and
(15:12):
friday night lights being acoach of the cheerleading team,
right?
Speaker 1 (15:18):
yes, yeah, yeah, and not thinking that he knew
everything, but relying on theseyoung women, young girls, you
know seventh and eighth graderight To to run their own show
with his kind of guidance andfeedback and to have his
football players support andtake care of you.
(15:41):
I thought one of my favoritelines was about how he would.
He would say like oh, that's agood guy, like you can go out
with him, but no, he's aknucklehead, you can't play for
him.
You know, it wasn't like oh,everybody's great, they're all
football players.
It's like no, there's someknuckleheads.
And like no, you can't, youcan't take that.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
I you know, I hope.
I hope, by putting this outthere, someone goes back.
I wish I could find Coach Marshto thank him.
I don't know where he is thesedays, I don't know if he went
back to Texas, but he was justin some ways very intimidating
and serious figure as Idescribed, with those glasses
(16:20):
and his arms folded.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
All the time.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
All the time and his arms folded all the time, all
the time.
But um, but very kind, um anduh, to be with a group of
predominantly black women, youknow, um, and here he is, this
southern white guy.
Um, you know, I guess he wouldbe played by like matthew
(16:43):
mcconaughey or something,someone like that, or Kyle
Chandler.
But yeah, he just keptencouraging me, he encouraged
all of us, but he book thatwould say to me directly that I
(17:06):
was smart.
Right, it wasn't really aboutgoing to college, it was a
really more that I was smart.
And then it seemed as thoughthe next step would be OK, well,
how do smart, smart people goto college?
So, how do you get to college?
That that's, that's, that'sreally the key.
Speaker 1 (17:29):
That sounds like the kind of a really good way to go
about it, though, like okay,first we'll tell you that you're
smart, we're going to reallymake sure you know that, and
people were willing to tell youthat and reach out to you about
that, and then it was like allright, well, now you know you're
smart.
Where do you go next?
You got to go, I've got thatcovered.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
Yeah, you didn't get that chapter, but that's early
on.
I talk about that.
It's a chapter, it's chapterone called Speaker of the House,
and because I am, I mean thelanguage we would use now is me
saying, oh, I was a culturalbroker in my family and I was
the one that was front facingand, you know, open the mail and
(18:14):
all that type of stuff.
And one of the things I talkabout, which I really think is
great for educators to reflecton, is that, just as you
described, my family told me Iwas smart Before I went to
school.
I was told that I was smart andschool validated what my family
already believed to be true,and so that's.
(18:36):
I think that's a reallydifferent way of thinking about
it.
It was like, okay, well, she'ssmart, so you all need to figure
, you know, you all need to dosomething for her.
That was that was.
That was my mom's wholeapproach.
It's like she's smart, you allaccommodate her.
Speaker 1 (18:53):
Yes, I think that's great because you know, we know
that first gen parents don'tthink they know enough about the
educational system, but theyknow their kids.
So if they're there saying,yeah, you're smart, and then I
love that.
Like hey, hey, you teachers andpeople, she's smart, like you
know which, which may may havemade trouble for you, though.
(19:13):
Right, I didn't read theelementary school chapters were
like, well, she's smart, likelet's give her more work or
let's pile on, or, you know,let's make sure she's in all the
toughest classes possible I dotalk about that.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
I do talk about that and how, but how like
situational it was.
Um, this is where I reallyfocus on the intersection of
being a Black and first-gen andworking-class student, because
there were times I grew up inthe DC area so there were times
where I went to school in DC andI was with, I was in, a
(19:47):
predominantly Black or all-Blackschool.
Was it being to be smart inthat context?
And then there were times whenI was in the suburbs where there
were it was like half Blackstudents, half white students,
but one of the few Blackstudents in the honors classes.
And so you know, I'm in aschool where I could see other
Black kids in the hallways butthey weren't in my classes,
(20:11):
right, and so just sort of goingin and out of these spaces and
how did I navigate and why?
Explain why I didn't want totake the AP exam?
Right, I was like.
I was like it was a white thing.
It was literally a white thingHaving a student tell me that
(20:59):
they were in an AP class, theywere reading a book, and some of
their fellow Black studentssaid, why case?
I think, to be honest, if welike, did some analysis here.
I think being a cheerleader andbeing very fluent in sports
helped me um, navigate betterthan like some of my other Black
friends did.
So I was.
I guess it was kind of like adouble consciousness, right, I
(21:20):
was still down, I was still likeof the people.
Being a cheerleader likevalidated me.
That's why it's the chapterthat I send out, because it was
such a pivotal turning point.
It showed that you know, to bein my school to be a cheerleader
was like whoa, you're a topgirl, right, and among black
(21:44):
students among black studentsparticularly, I would say in the
white community it was otherthings, right, it was like being
on crew or what have you.
But I was both.
I was.
I was revered in the blackcommunity and then well-regarded
(22:04):
among my white, white friendsas well.
Speaker 1 (22:08):
Yeah, and you didn't even want to be a cheerleader.
Speaker 2 (22:10):
I did not want to be a cheerleader.
You did not even want to yourfriend.
I was being a supportive friend.
Speaker 1 (22:17):
Right, and there you go off to cheerleading practice.
The next thing you know you'rean alternate and then you're on
the team and and your friend wasnot.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
And never was, and never was, yeah, yeah.
So again it's, I love it.
I love the English major andyou picking up on some of these
themes.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
Yes, yes, I couldn't.
I can't help.
It Just can't be helped.
So let me ask you and I know wesort of talked about this
before I started recording butthis is about your first-gen
identity, your origin story, andclearly it plays out in
different places what may havebeen like the aha moment for you
as you were writing this.
(23:01):
That's like I never thought ofthis really as first gen, but
now that I reflect, it's soclear and I know I didn't ask
you that ahead of time.
Speaker 2 (23:12):
Oh, no, no, it's fine .
Okay, let me talk so for folks.
One of the things that kind offrustrates me about first-year
narratives, whether it's a movieor a book, is that oftentimes
the story ends right as a persongets to college.
It was like struggle, struggle,struggle, go through high
(23:33):
school.
I made it to high, you gothrough high school.
I made it right.
I was milestone, I'm done.
Yay, the end.
I was very intentional aboutfocusing on my college and
graduate school experience.
So how that imposter syndromecontinued.
(23:54):
Here I am in a PhD program atUCLA, one of the top English
departments, and then what werethese moments where I it wasn't
just imposter syndrome, but eventhe whole process of deciding
where to go and where to apply.
(24:15):
It just didn't make.
Like we get used to it becausewe are told this is what you
need to do in order to go to adoctoral program.
Well, to my grandmother it madeno sense.
Why did I have to apply to UCLA?
Why do I have to apply to aschool all the way across the
country when there's perfectlygood schools right here?
(24:35):
Like I could hear her voice?
Right, grandma was right, butthose are, you know, you enter a
new kind of world and reallyputting myself back into the
(24:55):
classroom and remembering when Iwas embarrassed to ask
questions, and so I would justwrite names down in my notebook
so that I didn't look stupidLike who is LaKhan, who is
Deirdre, why don't I know thesepeople?
You know, why don't I knowthese people?
And so I really focused a loton my graduate school experience
(25:20):
too and how it carried over.
That's one.
And then, for you and all theother English major folks out
there, the prologue is calledInches, and it I wrote it pretty
late.
It describes my fear ofescalators, and so that I had as
(25:42):
a kid and it is definitely ametaphor.
I mean, it was true I wasafraid of escalators, but it's
also a metaphor of like thatmoment I don't know if you've
ever had that fear of these.
Plates are going by and you'restanding there.
I'm like where do I put my foot?
(26:03):
That moment, and so it becomesrepresentative of my journey of
I don't know how to move forward.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
I don't know where, how to move forward.
Yeah, I can see that.
That's a great metaphor.
I always worried my shoelace isgoing to get stuck in there.
That's my fear of the escalator.
But yeah, I can see that, andnot just not even sort of going
along, but going up and the youknow the different steps to
going upwards.
I think that's reallyinteresting.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
It's all there.
And then there are my cousinswho are mostly boys that you
know went on there with a lot ofconfidence and waiting for me
and there's people behind me.
You know it's.
I love, I love that it's.
It's not even a full chapter,it's an interlude and that's
people can expect that.
(26:52):
And in the book too they'relike like one of the chapters.
The top're like like one of thechap.
The top of the pyramid is oneof the longer chapters.
But then there are thesemoments where it's just two or
three pages and and then so it'slike heavy and relief and you
know that's like a palatecleanser.
Well, I don't know.
It's definitely a mood shifter.
Speaker 1 (27:13):
Mood shifter.
All right, we'll go with thatMood shifter, I like that, all
right.
So all this talk, I think, of avery kind of meta question,
which is talking about how youdo about origin stories and
superheroes and really gettinginto pop culture.
Yeah, and then you're sittingdown and writing your origin
(27:34):
story crazy, did you like catchyourself saying like, oh wait,
like this is I'm I'm doing atrope kind of here.
I need to like work myself outof this or I'm not quite being
real enough, or this is I'mfitting into this mold and I
don't want to you know again.
Speaker 2 (27:56):
Shout out to my editor, genesis.
The main thing genesis said tome was this is your book right?
And it was so important for herto say that back to me and that
it needs to reflect you.
So there were actually momentswhere she told me to lean more
into the superhero theme.
Yeah, and she was spot on, spoton.
(28:19):
She was like hey, considertying this back to a superhero.
And it was general advice.
It wasn't like talk about theflash, it was just like I was
probably hedging anyway and shewas just like just go all in,
just just just say it.
And I, I think it makes it.
(28:40):
Um, there's some moments thatare pretty clever and then, um,
I don't think you, I don't thinkpeople need to like know all
the references, but they, they,they're it'll, it'll make sense,
right, you're like yes, I'mhere, I am trying to be like
like the greatest american heropeople are familiar with.
(29:02):
That I used to love that show.
Yes, yes, like this sort ofordinary, this ordinary person
turned superhero is um the kindof story that I like anyway.
I mean, it's very common forsuperheroes, but not true for
all of them, right, like, uh, abarry allen in a flash versus
(29:23):
tony stark, um and um.
And as iron man who comes froma very privileged background,
you know, I I guess I tend tofall closer to the ordinary
peter parker, barry allen types,and so that's what this is,
that's what this does too.
So, yeah, I kind of, I kind oflean into it yeah, I love that.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
Well, it makes so much sense too, because that's
what you love, that's what Ilove?
Speaker 2 (29:50):
yeah, and it's on the cover.
It's in in the Spotify playlist.
I start right away with a themesong, a superhero theme song,
so it carries all the waythrough.
Speaker 1 (30:02):
I just went in which, before I was going to ask you
what you, I do want to still askyou what you learned about
yourself in writing the book.
But I do want to mention thatSpotify playlist and just the
chapter I read.
You know I had songs coming tomy mind.
You know new edition.
I'm like, oh, you know, likeI'm reading and trying not to go
(30:24):
like, but you know all thesesongs and references.
You know I was older when I wasremembering them, but really
the songs bring back so manymemories.
Did you play anything from youryounger days, in elementary or
(30:46):
middle school to kind of helpyou think about those things?
Or did you just be like?
You know what I'm writing this?
I'm putting together a Spotifyplaylist and people can listen
to it while they're reading.
Speaker 2 (31:00):
No good question.
Okay, two things about that,and I talk about this really
explicitly.
I talk about it in the chapterthat you read about my love for
billboards and music countdowns.
Speaker 1 (31:08):
Yes, I remember doing the same thing.
I'm going to spend my timelistening and trying to tape
something that I like, becausethat was the only way to get it.
Speaker 2 (31:15):
Yeah, I was just fascinated by them, probably a
very I don't know Gen X type ofthing, I don't know.
And so that part I knew aboutmyself, but especially that
particular chapter.
I was like, okay, what was Ithinking and feeling in seventh
grade?
And so I started listening tosome songs from that era and I
(31:41):
just had to put myself in themindset.
I was not.
I mean, I had some songs inmind.
I think I kind of figuredeventually I would do something.
But as I was writing, I wasn't.
They were a little bit separateprojects, I guess I could say.
I knew, for example, that thesong Lose Yourself by Eminem is
(32:05):
one of my all-time favoritesongs.
One of my all-time favoritesongs, and there's a moment
where he says, mom, I love you,but this trailer's got to go.
I cannot grow old in salem'slot, right, and that song just
always moved.
That part of the song justmoves me and so I had to write
(32:27):
to that.
I was like I need to.
I need people to feel what Ifelt.
What were some, what are somethings that would make me say
that?
Because, like the first coupleof chapters are, you know,
they're pretty fun.
I talk about my love for Prince.
I talk about mom taking me to aPrince concert when I was 12.
I talk about being acheerleader, you know.
(32:48):
But I had to get to this placewhere I talk about these moments
, like what?
But I had to get to this placewhere I talk about what was
pushing me away.
What was pushing me away, andthat's where it gets darker and
that's where some traumaticthings are.
I write about that too.
So the music is really, reallyimportant.
(33:10):
It's a multimedia experience.
There's the reading of the bookand then there's the listening
of the songs, and there's achapter called Billboard 1988
that is told in a series ofvignettes and every subsection
has a little title and everytitle is a song that was
(33:35):
released in 1988, which was theyear I started college.
So there's a lot happening.
Wow, I love that it's like apuzzle.
It's like a puzzle.
Speaker 1 (33:45):
You just, you'll just keep unpacking things like oh
my gosh yeah, well, and, and itgives you such a sense of
feelings and the time andmoments to have the music to go
along with what you're saying.
Yes, that's great.
I was going to say at the endof the book do you have, like
your Spotify, all your songslisted?
Speaker 2 (34:08):
I should probably put them in there, huh.
Speaker 1 (34:10):
Not that I want you to write anymore, I know right.
Speaker 2 (34:13):
But I do know some people don't have Spotify and so
maybe Just an index of all thesongs, yeah, I should probably
do that.
My mom's going to kill me she'sthe one helping me put it all
together, but I should probablydo it because everyone doesn't
have Spotify.
I might, I should do that, andI just wanted to say to people
not necessarily take all the thetitles literally.
(34:35):
They're often again uh, elusive, not elusive, like.
I'm alluding to some thingslike um, like, uh, like
madonna's like a virgin is onthere has nothing to do with sex
in the book, but that was whatwas playing in the background
during an important moment there.
Speaker 1 (34:57):
Yeah, very cool, very cool.
So what did you learn?
If you learned anything, I'mjust going to assume you did.
What are some things youlearned about yourself in
writing the book?
Speaker 2 (35:07):
Well, I'll reiterate it.
I'll reiterate one thing whichwas just, um, like I said, my
ability to just sort of lock inand and um and have, and my
discipline really really justsort of kicked in.
I know a couple people havesaid, oh my gosh, you, you wrote
it so fast and and all that.
(35:28):
But I mean, I wasn't playingaround and and not because I
anything to prove, I just I justit, just once, once the once
the gears kicked in, I was justgo, I would, I would just really
write.
I got to a point where Icouldn't stop writing, you know
so.
So yeah, that that was great.
And then I just I guess theother thing.
(36:10):
And then I just I guess theother thing.
I don an entire chapter to oneof my older cousins, a woman, a
female cousin, and what herexperience was like going to
college.
I didn't even know the story,remember.
I described like these tentpolemoments.
(36:31):
I was like, oh, when didcollege come up?
Right, that was the thing Ineeded, was like, oh, when did
college come up?
Right, that was the thing Ineeded to answer.
When did college come up?
And it was.
I remember having a favoritet-shirt, that my, that I got
from my cousin that had the nameof a school on it, and so I
called her up and I was like,hey, tell me about your time at
(36:52):
the school, right?
I didn't know.
She didn't complete, I didn't.
There were so many things we're, we're 10 years apart or
something like that.
And she went off to college anddidn't finish, and when she
told me her story there weresome things she experienced that
I also experienced later, youknow, and I didn't know that.
(37:15):
And so, anyway, I tell herstory and I tell the story of
some other cousins too, and Ijust again wanting to show the
nuances and complexities ofparticularly being Black, first
gen and working class, and notjust share my own story.
(37:36):
So there was so many surprisesalong the way.
I'm like what you did, what Ihad no idea, you know, sometimes
some things just aren't talkedabout in families.
Speaker 1 (37:51):
Yeah, and and you're it's kind of your willingness to
ask questions and to reach outto people added a lot to you and
to other people that broughtthem out, because you were
willing to talk about thosethings.
Speaker 2 (38:05):
Well, again, I had to get over that whole thing of
like writing is a solitary actyou do by yourself.
So once I got over that and oneof the things I'll just say,
because it did get kind ofemotional, one of the things
that was challenging Jen, though, in reaching back out to my
good friend, reaching back outto my good good friend Sean, or
my cousin William or Lenita, Ialways knew that that my family
(38:30):
really supported me.
I just had so much, so muchsupport.
But I also know and I heard itin their voice, like when I
reached back out, that kind oflike it was there's definitely a
tension between people beingexcited for me and people also
feeling like they got that Ileft, or like you know what I
(38:52):
mean and so that's something Iwrestle with in the book as well
is that, in being upheld as thesmart one, it also kind of
meant that I was built to leave.
You know, like that that was.
That was really hard.
It was like you're smart andyou gotta go.
(39:12):
We don't want you to go, butyou gotta go.
You know what I mean.
That that's a real challenge, Ithink.
First, gens, no matter whatgeneration, race, ethnicity, et
cetera many of us experiencequite a bit just that great
tension of that.
Speaker 1 (39:35):
Yeah, absolutely so.
Let me close with this questionthen.
I know you have First Gen Juiceand the Catalyst Awards and you
put all these great books outthere for us to read about first
gen narratives and hope that wewill use those books, you know,
as we talk to students or asconversation starters or book
(39:56):
clubs or whatever we might do.
How do you hope that peoplelike me and everyone who's
listening are going to use yourbook in our work?
Speaker 2 (40:08):
Yeah, well, many of the things that you describe
right, whether it is a book clubor a workshop.
But I'll say that, in tellingmy origin story and leaning in
to my school experience, Ireally think this book will
(40:29):
resonate with a number ofdifferent audiences.
Yes, it could be K-throughfolks still in high school or
K-through 12, especially as Idescribe my own concern about
taking AP classes and sort ofbeing in and out of honors
classes.
I think that's really resonantwith folks still in high school
(40:52):
and obviously, college students.
But hello, graduate schoolstudents and professional school
students.
Trust me, there's many, manypages devoted to what that
experience is like and how doyou write a dissertation and all
that.
So I hope folks still ingraduate or even considering
(41:13):
graduate professional schoolwill pick it up as well.
And then, of course, being afirst-gen professional and staff
or folks who are, let's say, inthis case, in my age range or
consider themselves Gen X,because we often don't see our
stories represented.
I don't know how Gen X fellthrough the cracks, but by
(41:35):
embracing the music of the timesand the pop culture references,
I'm also solidifying the Gen Xexperience too.
So you don't have to be acurrent student to gain
something from this book,because I think it will
absolutely validate many folkswho are right now professionals,
(41:57):
often leading programs,developing podcasts, really
shaping and influencing themovement from a different
perspective, as senior leadersor or administrators.
This book is definitely for youbecause I I did not know it for
a really long time and so um.
So, yes, I think it would begreat for staff trainings, I
(42:20):
think it'd be great for employeeresource groups for, for
example.
So those are just a few ways inwhich people could address it.
There's going to be a podcasttoo, by the way.
Thank you for inspiring me.
Speaker 1 (42:36):
All for podcasts?
Yay, that's fantastic.
And is that going to be basedon your book about the themes
around your book?
Speaker 2 (42:45):
that going to be based on your book about the
themes around your book.
So this will be in concert withone of my really good friends,
uh, professor samantha pinto.
She is a scholar of blackfeminist theory at ut austin and
I told sam and she hasn't evenread the the whole book yet.
I was like sam, this really isa black feminist text and I
think it would be really greatto have, you know, bring her
(43:06):
lens to the conversation and soit'll be probably more thematic,
I guess, and she's got someideas for guests and things like
that.
But Smart Girl, the podcastwill come out sometime in 2025.
Speaker 1 (43:22):
Okay, all right, which is just around the corner
which is basically tomorrow.
All right, all right, well, letus let me know so I can promote
it and get it out there.
I so appreciate you coming onand talking about this book.
I can't wait for other peopleto read it, because I'm excited
to read it.
Because I only read that firstchapter.
I'm like, wait, it's over, likewhere are the chapters?
(43:44):
Down down, down, jen.
I need to know how you became aCeltic fan.
You teased that, and now I needto know.
So I've got to get the book.
So when is it coming out?
How can people find it?
And if people want to reach you, how can they find you?
Speaker 2 (43:57):
Well, pre-sales begin in a matter of days, and anyone
will be able to go to, you know, your traditional places like
amazon and barnes and nobleonline.
It'll ship, though it won't.
You won't get it before the endof the year.
It'll ship early next year, butyou and I please, please,
pre-order though, becausepre-ordering is really important
(44:18):
.
That's how, um, that's howlibraries and bookstores know to
carry something in stock, andso we're going to do a heavy
promotion for the presale, butthen folks will be able to
actually get it in their hotlittle hands in early 2025.
Speaker 1 (44:38):
Okay, something to look forward to in the new year.
Speaker 2 (44:41):
I'm excited about that to look forward to in the
new year.
I'm excited about that.
Well, I hope that you are ableto come to the December 22nd
book launch and then I will be.
I'll be, you know, going todifferent places across the
country and talking about thebook.
So if anyone wants to, wants toinvite me, I'd be happy to.
Speaker 1 (45:01):
To talk more.
All right, as long as we putyou up as close as possible to
the TD Garden, you wouldconsider coming to Boston.
Speaker 2 (45:12):
I love Boston.
Speaker 1 (45:13):
Bribe you with the Celtics game, you'll be all set.
Speaker 2 (45:15):
I'll be all set, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (45:18):
So I will put some links in the show notes as well
as your website, and I know youhave ways for people to contact
you on there, so I'll includethat.
Speaker 2 (45:28):
Absolutely.
Yeah, look for me on InstagramFirstGenandJuice also, dr LT
ReSmiles.
Either one and yeah, let meknow what you think.
Speaker 1 (45:38):
All right.
Thank you so much, lt, and soyou know how to reach LT.
If you want to get in touchwith me, you can reach me at Jen
, that's J-E-N at firstjenfmcomand I would love to hear your
review, your ideas, yourthoughts on the book and if
there are other books out therethat you want me to talk to,
authors or topics you want me tocover in the podcast, I'm happy
(46:01):
to hear them.
So thank you so much forjoining me, lt, and for you out
there listening.
Thank you so much for listeningand reviewing and rating the
podcast.
I really appreciate it.
Have a great week and I'll talkto you next week, thank you.
Welcome and welcome back to the First Gen FM podcast
, where we high school andcollege educators strengthen,
celebrate and supportfirst-generation college and
college-bound students.
I'm Jennifer Schoen, your host.
Please call me Jen.
I'd love it if you could leavea review and a rating for this
podcast to help other educatorsfind us.
Thank you so much for takingthe time to do that.
(00:27):
Now let's dive into this week'sepisode.
In this episode, we're going tobe talking to Dr LaTanya LT
Reese-Miles.
Lt is a first-generationcollege graduate and thought
leader in higher educationaround first-generation research
and programs.
She's the founder of a veryactive Facebook page empowering
(00:48):
first-generation collegestudents, the creator of First
Gen and Juice, which is anawesome blog and Instagram page,
and she currently works inpartnership development at ReUp
Education.
Now, if you've met LT, you knowabout her love of first-gen
narratives in comics and popculture, her fondness for the
Celtics and her excitement aboutwhat we're going to talk about
(01:12):
today her new memoir, smart Girl.
So let's jump in.
I am here with LaTanya ReeseMiles LT.
To all the cool people and LT,thanks for joining me on the
First Gen FM podcast.
I'm so excited to talk to youabout your book.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
I'm so excited to be here.
This is like breaking news youget to break the story, jen, so
I'm super excited for this.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
I know People are going to pick up the AP.
He's going to be calling mepicking up the story.
Just love it.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
Put it out there in the universe.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
That's right, that's right.
But you know, my first questionis so did you just wake up and
say I'm going to write a memoir?
How did you decide to startthat?
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Oh my gosh, Absolutely not.
You know it's funny becauseit's a bit of a cliche, but
absolutely true that you know Iwas.
I didn't think of myself as Imean, I think of myself as a
writer, but I never thoughtabout writing my own story.
You know, I absolutely am likea cheerleader for others and
(02:18):
always, always encouraging otherpeople to tell their story.
However, my daughter, littleZoe God bless her it was like a
metaphorical finger poking me.
He's like you really shouldtell your story.
Why aren't you telling yourstory?
Your story's so interesting.
And I was like no one wants toread about me, right?
So I had her voice in the backof my head.
But, jen, I would say thetipping point came when I was
(02:40):
doing an interview very muchlike this one with Erica Alfaro,
who was a nominee for theCatalyst Awards that I started
and her memoir Harvesting Dreamswas nominated for Best Memoir,
and we were having a reallygreat conversation on Instagram
and she said you know, latanya,you should tell the story that
(03:02):
you wish you had and that Icredit that moment, that
conversation, for the that wasabout two years ago, for the,
the, the impetus that really hadme.
Okay, let me sit down and writethis.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
Yeah, that's fantastic.
Shout out to Erica that's right, we'll have to tag her in this
so she knows that she's gettingsome credit here.
I love that, I love that and Isome credit here.
I love that.
I love that.
And I imagine that sometimes itwas a labor of love and
sometimes you were.
Why am I writing this?
Speaker 2 (03:33):
okay, truthfully, I did not have a moment of why am
I writing it?
Once I did not.
Once I kind of got over, gotover that little, got over it
right and started writing.
It was therapeutic, it wasactually fun.
Now it was hard work at thesame time, because it requires a
(03:59):
lot of discipline.
We can come back to this, butit was one of the things I did
learn about myself and I thatwas.
We can come back to this, butit was one of the things I did
learn about myself.
But I did not really have amoment, once I sort of got got
into the rhythm of it, ofdoubting it.
It was to the point where I waslike you know what, even if no
one read it, I'm still happyabout it.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
So I just kept going yeah, can I ask you this sort of
as?
As you were writing it, did youfind you went chronologically,
or did things pop into your headand be like, oh, I remember
that?
Speaker 2 (04:35):
no, definitely not chronologically, because, um,
more of like the, what youdescribed, more of the, the
latter thing.
So what I did?
So I had an editor, by the way,who was a Genesis shout out to
Genesis.
She was more like a thoughtpartner, to be honest and she
and I sat down and she asked melike, what is this book?
(04:57):
You know, because there'sdifferent ways of writing a
memoir.
So for me it was about metelling my origin story.
Not all the things I created,not first to go, not the classes
I created, it's the things thatsort of got me to that point.
(05:17):
So I really wanted to stickwith how I was feeling in the
moment.
A lot of the times I'm, youknow, pretty young, my first 20
years of living, and so I waspretty much focused on that.
And then, okay, now I forgotyour question.
Oh, the writing.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
Oh, I know how did you like organize yourself.
Speaker 2 (05:40):
So then, knowing that , knowing that right, I had to
think of these tentpole momentsin my educational journey of
like, okay, what was impactfulfor me?
So I had an outline, but Ididn't necessarily write it in
chronological order.
I actually didn't write it inchronological order, they were
just whatever felt right was, orwhen I got something moved me,
(06:03):
I like, okay, I gotta, let mewrite that down.
Yeah, well, and then there's a,a chapter I wrote fairly
recently.
I had to like I had to plug ahole.
There was like a, like a, acontent gap and I was like, oh,
I need something right here.
But it's like in the middle ofthe book.
It's going to appear in themiddle of the book.
(06:24):
So, yeah, it's pretty.
It's actually very difficult towrite in chronological order.
Speaker 1 (06:30):
Yeah, I, I well, my brain personally doesn't think
like that.
I would think of themes, andand then themes and then
different things around me wouldremind me of like, oh, I need
to think about that and go back.
Speaker 2 (06:41):
Absolutely.
That's exactly what happenedfor sure.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
It's.
You know, you said somethingthere that made me wonder.
As an educator pickingeducation sort of as some of
your tentpoles, your educationaljourney seems like the perfect
thing for you, yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
Well, I mean, there's so many, like I said, there's
so many ways to write it.
You know, I'm like 99% of theway done and looking at the
entire thing now.
There's so many other pathwaysand avenues I could have taken,
but you know, I chose this one.
I'm really happy with it.
Yeah, there's, the focus, forsure, is on my school trajectory
(07:23):
and I think I just want to letpeople know who want to know
well, how did you start first togo at UCLA?
That's another book, that's notthis book.
Speaker 1 (07:33):
Well, like you said, this is your origin story.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
This is my origin story.
Yes, this is how I got there.
That explains my pedagogy, myapproach, my philosophy and all
that.
But I'm very much in the moment, writing as I thought and felt,
you know, as a teenager and asa 20 something, and I stick in
(07:57):
that mode.
I'm not it's not criticalessays.
I'm not commenting on what Iexperienced.
I'm describing what Iexperienced and how I felt.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
Yeah, yeah.
And I mean how perfect for that, how perfect is that for you to
call it an origin story, givenall that you like with the pop
culture and the flash and all ofthat, to have your own origin
story?
Speaker 2 (08:21):
That was well.
People will see there are anumber of different themes, so
let me give the English majorwarning so all of my degrees are
in literature folks and so I'mvery conscious of illusions and
themes, and superheroes is oneof them.
(08:42):
Mobility is another them, uh,mobility is another, like
transportation, mobility, um,and so there's some metaphors in
here and most I would sayprobably most of them are
intentional, not unintentionalyeah, yeah, I love that, I love
that.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
That's.
I mean, that's just so much funto unpack, I think as you would
get a big kick out of it.
As an English major Yay, youknow, I'm all in.
I think that sitting down towrite a memoir would be just an
amazing experience, and what Iwonder for you is, sort of as
you reflected on your life, towrite the pieces and to come up
(09:20):
with the tent poles, were thereany surprises for you in kind of
what you uncovered as youreflected and wrote?
Speaker 2 (09:27):
Yeah.
So, oh man, I approached thislike as a first gen, just like I
did anything else, which waslike I got to figure this out by
myself.
Let me not talk to anyone.
That was so silly when I thinkabout it.
But there was this, this momentit was like been repeated in my
life where I felt like I wouldbe cheating if I reached out to
(09:50):
someone in my family to orwhoever to like um back, check
or just check in with them.
You know, I was like no, I needto like do this all on my own,
which was pretty silly.
But once I reached out I thinkit first started with LaShawn,
who is a pivotal character inthe chapter Top of the Pyramid I
(10:16):
reached out to her long, long,long time friend I've known
LaShawn since we were 12 yearsold and told her I was writing
this book and sent the chapterto her.
I mean, no, before I sent thechat, we were just talking about
our experience and it was justso beautiful to not just to
(10:36):
reconnect and also hear herperspective, you know, and I
think I felt like, if I did it,that I needed to only have my
perspective right.
Um, and then that led me tofollow up with Angie, who was
another critical person in thatin that chapter.
I hadn't talked to Angie insince high school, you know, and
(10:58):
I reached out to her onLinkedIn I'm sorry, on, uh,
facebook and she gave gave me areally different take on how I
felt about cheer.
All this time.
Before I wrote this chapter Iwas thinking I literally thought
I was only picked for thecheerleading team because I was
(11:21):
smart.
And she challenged that Likewhen I talked to her recently
she was like you know, that wasyou in your head, that was your
insecurity, you know.
So all that to say, I was stillgoing through first gen thing
things and writing it had a veryfirst gen, had a very like
solitary approach, moments ofimposter syndrome still cropping
(11:45):
up and then just slaying thosebattle, the uh um, slaying those
dragons, I should say along theway, um.
And I discovered that Iactually have a lot of
discipline once I got into it'slike people say, it's like
running, you know, I would getup around the same time and
(12:06):
write around the same time whenI first started and it took over
two years and I just had todevelop that muscle like, ok,
I'm going to write, I'm going towrite for an hour or 30 minutes
.
I think I started 30 minutes.
I'm just going to write and letme tell you, you do that over
and, over and over again and youend up with 65000 words, or
(12:26):
whatever it is.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
Yeah, that's amazing and that makes a lot of sense.
Having read that chapter, thattalking to Angie gave you kind
of more information that helpedyou see that in some ways you
followed in her footsteps interms of the same path that she
took the alternate to the togetting on the first team or
(12:49):
whatever the varsity and I didnot know those things?
Speaker 2 (12:52):
I did not.
She told me more about herstory, right, and so I was able
to incorporate that, and that'sanother another.
I don't know if that's whatmakes it unique In some ways.
I do think it is that I amtelling my first-gen origin
story, but I'm also deliberatelytelling the stories of other
people around me, many of whomwould have been first-gen to
(13:16):
college.
Many of them did not go, butthat was important, or did not
complete one or the other, butthat was really important.
That I talk about other peopletoo, okay.
Speaker 1 (13:30):
So the chapter that I read was your.
I think it was your middleschool experience, right, and
being a cheerleader and what allthat meant, and the football
coach who turned out to be quitekind of amazing and impactful.
You know you kind of go andimpactful.
Oh yes, you know you kind of goin expecting a little bit of
the stereotype and it sort ofstarts out that way.
(13:51):
But all of a sudden, you knowhe blossoms too and it's like
whoa.
But in that time were peopletalking about first gen.
Was that anywhere in your likeknowledge base at that point?
Speaker 2 (14:03):
Absolutely not, absolutely not, absolutely not.
I mean, you know, this book isalso for Gen X, for those of us
who are of a certain generationwhere lots of us were in college
but absolutely not using thatlanguage, not known even
beneficiaries of programs likeTRIO and things like that, and
(14:25):
still not knowing we were firstgen.
So no, that language was not.
I didn't hear first gen until Iwas in my doctoral program and
someone told me I was first gen.
So decades later, but, um, Iwill say so I went to the same
(14:50):
high school, tc Williams.
You know there's a movie,remember the titans?
yes, um but let me tell you thatstory about coach marsh, I
would argue would make a bettermovie, because imagine this, you
know, imagine that the um, theactor who played coach and
(15:12):
friday night lights being acoach of the cheerleading team,
right?
Speaker 1 (15:18):
yes, yeah, yeah, and not thinking that he knew
everything, but relying on theseyoung women, young girls, you
know seventh and eighth graderight To to run their own show
with his kind of guidance andfeedback and to have his
football players support andtake care of you.
(15:41):
I thought one of my favoritelines was about how he would.
He would say like oh, that's agood guy, like you can go out
with him, but no, he's aknucklehead, you can't play for
him.
You know, it wasn't like oh,everybody's great, they're all
football players.
It's like no, there's someknuckleheads.
And like no, you can't, youcan't take that.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
I you know, I hope.
I hope, by putting this outthere, someone goes back.
I wish I could find Coach Marshto thank him.
I don't know where he is thesedays, I don't know if he went
back to Texas, but he was justin some ways very intimidating
and serious figure as Idescribed, with those glasses
(16:20):
and his arms folded.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
All the time.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
All the time and his arms folded all the time, all
the time.
But um, but very kind, um anduh, to be with a group of
predominantly black women, youknow, um, and here he is, this
southern white guy.
Um, you know, I guess he wouldbe played by like matthew
(16:43):
mcconaughey or something,someone like that, or Kyle
Chandler.
But yeah, he just keptencouraging me, he encouraged
all of us, but he book thatwould say to me directly that I
(17:06):
was smart.
Right, it wasn't really aboutgoing to college, it was a
really more that I was smart.
And then it seemed as thoughthe next step would be OK, well,
how do smart, smart people goto college?
So, how do you get to college?
That that's, that's, that'sreally the key.
Speaker 1 (17:29):
That sounds like the kind of a really good way to go
about it, though, like okay,first we'll tell you that you're
smart, we're going to reallymake sure you know that, and
people were willing to tell youthat and reach out to you about
that, and then it was like allright, well, now you know you're
smart.
Where do you go next?
You got to go, I've got thatcovered.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
Yeah, you didn't get that chapter, but that's early
on.
I talk about that.
It's a chapter, it's chapterone called Speaker of the House,
and because I am, I mean thelanguage we would use now is me
saying, oh, I was a culturalbroker in my family and I was
the one that was front facingand, you know, open the mail and
(18:14):
all that type of stuff.
And one of the things I talkabout, which I really think is
great for educators to reflecton, is that, just as you
described, my family told me Iwas smart Before I went to
school.
I was told that I was smart andschool validated what my family
already believed to be true,and so that's.
(18:36):
I think that's a reallydifferent way of thinking about
it.
It was like, okay, well, she'ssmart, so you all need to figure
, you know, you all need to dosomething for her.
That was that was.
That was my mom's wholeapproach.
It's like she's smart, you allaccommodate her.
Speaker 1 (18:53):
Yes, I think that's great because you know, we know
that first gen parents don'tthink they know enough about the
educational system, but theyknow their kids.
So if they're there saying,yeah, you're smart, and then I
love that.
Like hey, hey, you teachers andpeople, she's smart, like you
know which, which may may havemade trouble for you, though.
(19:13):
Right, I didn't read theelementary school chapters were
like, well, she's smart, likelet's give her more work or
let's pile on, or, you know,let's make sure she's in all the
toughest classes possible I dotalk about that.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
I do talk about that and how, but how like
situational it was.
Um, this is where I reallyfocus on the intersection of
being a Black and first-gen andworking-class student, because
there were times I grew up inthe DC area so there were times
where I went to school in DC andI was with, I was in, a
(19:47):
predominantly Black or all-Blackschool.
Was it being to be smart inthat context?
And then there were times whenI was in the suburbs where there
were it was like half Blackstudents, half white students,
but one of the few Blackstudents in the honors classes.
And so you know, I'm in aschool where I could see other
Black kids in the hallways butthey weren't in my classes,
(20:11):
right, and so just sort of goingin and out of these spaces and
how did I navigate and why?
Explain why I didn't want totake the AP exam?
Right, I was like.
I was like it was a white thing.
It was literally a white thingHaving a student tell me that
(20:59):
they were in an AP class, theywere reading a book, and some of
their fellow Black studentssaid, why case?
I think, to be honest, if welike, did some analysis here.
I think being a cheerleader andbeing very fluent in sports
helped me um, navigate betterthan like some of my other Black
friends did.
So I was.
I guess it was kind of like adouble consciousness, right, I
(21:20):
was still down, I was still likeof the people.
Being a cheerleader likevalidated me.
That's why it's the chapterthat I send out, because it was
such a pivotal turning point.
It showed that you know, to bein my school to be a cheerleader
was like whoa, you're a topgirl, right, and among black
(21:44):
students among black studentsparticularly, I would say in the
white community it was otherthings, right, it was like being
on crew or what have you.
But I was both.
I was.
I was revered in the blackcommunity and then well-regarded
(22:04):
among my white, white friendsas well.
Speaker 1 (22:08):
Yeah, and you didn't even want to be a cheerleader.
Speaker 2 (22:10):
I did not want to be a cheerleader.
You did not even want to yourfriend.
I was being a supportive friend.
Speaker 1 (22:17):
Right, and there you go off to cheerleading practice.
The next thing you know you'rean alternate and then you're on
the team and and your friend wasnot.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
And never was, and never was, yeah, yeah.
So again it's, I love it.
I love the English major andyou picking up on some of these
themes.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
Yes, yes, I couldn't.
I can't help.
It Just can't be helped.
So let me ask you and I know wesort of talked about this
before I started recording butthis is about your first-gen
identity, your origin story, andclearly it plays out in
different places what may havebeen like the aha moment for you
as you were writing this.
(23:01):
That's like I never thought ofthis really as first gen, but
now that I reflect, it's soclear and I know I didn't ask
you that ahead of time.
Speaker 2 (23:12):
Oh, no, no, it's fine .
Okay, let me talk so for folks.
One of the things that kind offrustrates me about first-year
narratives, whether it's a movieor a book, is that oftentimes
the story ends right as a persongets to college.
It was like struggle, struggle,struggle, go through high
(23:33):
school.
I made it to high, you gothrough high school.
I made it right.
I was milestone, I'm done.
Yay, the end.
I was very intentional aboutfocusing on my college and
graduate school experience.
So how that imposter syndromecontinued.
(23:54):
Here I am in a PhD program atUCLA, one of the top English
departments, and then what werethese moments where I it wasn't
just imposter syndrome, but eventhe whole process of deciding
where to go and where to apply.
(24:15):
It just didn't make.
Like we get used to it becausewe are told this is what you
need to do in order to go to adoctoral program.
Well, to my grandmother it madeno sense.
Why did I have to apply to UCLA?
Why do I have to apply to aschool all the way across the
country when there's perfectlygood schools right here?
(24:35):
Like I could hear her voice?
Right, grandma was right, butthose are, you know, you enter a
new kind of world and reallyputting myself back into the
(24:55):
classroom and remembering when Iwas embarrassed to ask
questions, and so I would justwrite names down in my notebook
so that I didn't look stupidLike who is LaKhan, who is
Deirdre, why don't I know thesepeople?
You know, why don't I knowthese people?
And so I really focused a loton my graduate school experience
(25:20):
too and how it carried over.
That's one.
And then, for you and all theother English major folks out
there, the prologue is calledInches, and it I wrote it pretty
late.
It describes my fear ofescalators, and so that I had as
(25:42):
a kid and it is definitely ametaphor.
I mean, it was true I wasafraid of escalators, but it's
also a metaphor of like thatmoment I don't know if you've
ever had that fear of these.
Plates are going by and you'restanding there.
I'm like where do I put my foot?
(26:03):
That moment, and so it becomesrepresentative of my journey of
I don't know how to move forward.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
I don't know where, how to move forward.
Yeah, I can see that.
That's a great metaphor.
I always worried my shoelace isgoing to get stuck in there.
That's my fear of the escalator.
But yeah, I can see that, andnot just not even sort of going
along, but going up and the youknow the different steps to
going upwards.
I think that's reallyinteresting.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
It's all there.
And then there are my cousinswho are mostly boys that you
know went on there with a lot ofconfidence and waiting for me
and there's people behind me.
You know it's.
I love, I love that it's.
It's not even a full chapter,it's an interlude and that's
people can expect that.
(26:52):
And in the book too they'relike like one of the chapters.
The top're like like one of thechap.
The top of the pyramid is oneof the longer chapters.
But then there are thesemoments where it's just two or
three pages and and then so it'slike heavy and relief and you
know that's like a palatecleanser.
Well, I don't know.
It's definitely a mood shifter.
Speaker 1 (27:13):
Mood shifter.
All right, we'll go with thatMood shifter, I like that, all
right.
So all this talk, I think, of avery kind of meta question,
which is talking about how youdo about origin stories and
superheroes and really gettinginto pop culture.
Yeah, and then you're sittingdown and writing your origin
(27:34):
story crazy, did you like catchyourself saying like, oh wait,
like this is I'm I'm doing atrope kind of here.
I need to like work myself outof this or I'm not quite being
real enough, or this is I'mfitting into this mold and I
don't want to you know again.
Speaker 2 (27:56):
Shout out to my editor, genesis.
The main thing genesis said tome was this is your book right?
And it was so important for herto say that back to me and that
it needs to reflect you.
So there were actually momentswhere she told me to lean more
into the superhero theme.
Yeah, and she was spot on, spoton.
(28:19):
She was like hey, considertying this back to a superhero.
And it was general advice.
It wasn't like talk about theflash, it was just like I was
probably hedging anyway and shewas just like just go all in,
just just just say it.
And I, I think it makes it.
(28:40):
Um, there's some moments thatare pretty clever and then, um,
I don't think you, I don't thinkpeople need to like know all
the references, but they, they,they're it'll, it'll make sense,
right, you're like yes, I'mhere, I am trying to be like
like the greatest american heropeople are familiar with.
(29:02):
That I used to love that show.
Yes, yes, like this sort ofordinary, this ordinary person
turned superhero is um the kindof story that I like anyway.
I mean, it's very common forsuperheroes, but not true for
all of them, right, like, uh, abarry allen in a flash versus
(29:23):
tony stark, um and um.
And as iron man who comes froma very privileged background,
you know, I I guess I tend tofall closer to the ordinary
peter parker, barry allen types,and so that's what this is,
that's what this does too.
So, yeah, I kind of, I kind oflean into it yeah, I love that.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
Well, it makes so much sense too, because that's
what you love, that's what Ilove?
Speaker 2 (29:50):
yeah, and it's on the cover.
It's in in the Spotify playlist.
I start right away with a themesong, a superhero theme song,
so it carries all the waythrough.
Speaker 1 (30:02):
I just went in which, before I was going to ask you
what you, I do want to still askyou what you learned about
yourself in writing the book.
But I do want to mention thatSpotify playlist and just the
chapter I read.
You know I had songs coming tomy mind.
You know new edition.
I'm like, oh, you know, likeI'm reading and trying not to go
(30:24):
like, but you know all thesesongs and references.
You know I was older when I wasremembering them, but really
the songs bring back so manymemories.
Did you play anything from youryounger days, in elementary or
(30:46):
middle school to kind of helpyou think about those things?
Or did you just be like?
You know what I'm writing this?
I'm putting together a Spotifyplaylist and people can listen
to it while they're reading.
Speaker 2 (31:00):
No good question.
Okay, two things about that,and I talk about this really
explicitly.
I talk about it in the chapterthat you read about my love for
billboards and music countdowns.
Speaker 1 (31:08):
Yes, I remember doing the same thing.
I'm going to spend my timelistening and trying to tape
something that I like, becausethat was the only way to get it.
Speaker 2 (31:15):
Yeah, I was just fascinated by them, probably a
very I don't know Gen X type ofthing, I don't know.
And so that part I knew aboutmyself, but especially that
particular chapter.
I was like, okay, what was Ithinking and feeling in seventh
grade?
And so I started listening tosome songs from that era and I
(31:41):
just had to put myself in themindset.
I was not.
I mean, I had some songs inmind.
I think I kind of figuredeventually I would do something.
But as I was writing, I wasn't.
They were a little bit separateprojects, I guess I could say.
I knew, for example, that thesong Lose Yourself by Eminem is
(32:05):
one of my all-time favoritesongs.
One of my all-time favoritesongs, and there's a moment
where he says, mom, I love you,but this trailer's got to go.
I cannot grow old in salem'slot, right, and that song just
always moved.
That part of the song justmoves me and so I had to write
(32:27):
to that.
I was like I need to.
I need people to feel what Ifelt.
What were some, what are somethings that would make me say
that?
Because, like the first coupleof chapters are, you know,
they're pretty fun.
I talk about my love for Prince.
I talk about mom taking me to aPrince concert when I was 12.
I talk about being acheerleader, you know.
(32:48):
But I had to get to this placewhere I talk about these moments
, like what?
But I had to get to this placewhere I talk about what was
pushing me away.
What was pushing me away, andthat's where it gets darker and
that's where some traumaticthings are.
I write about that too.
So the music is really, reallyimportant.
(33:10):
It's a multimedia experience.
There's the reading of the bookand then there's the listening
of the songs, and there's achapter called Billboard 1988
that is told in a series ofvignettes and every subsection
has a little title and everytitle is a song that was
(33:35):
released in 1988, which was theyear I started college.
So there's a lot happening.
Wow, I love that it's like apuzzle.
It's like a puzzle.
Speaker 1 (33:45):
You just, you'll just keep unpacking things like oh
my gosh yeah, well, and, and itgives you such a sense of
feelings and the time andmoments to have the music to go
along with what you're saying.
Yes, that's great.
I was going to say at the endof the book do you have, like
your Spotify, all your songslisted?
Speaker 2 (34:08):
I should probably put them in there, huh.
Speaker 1 (34:10):
Not that I want you to write anymore, I know right.
Speaker 2 (34:13):
But I do know some people don't have Spotify and so
maybe Just an index of all thesongs, yeah, I should probably
do that.
My mom's going to kill me she'sthe one helping me put it all
together, but I should probablydo it because everyone doesn't
have Spotify.
I might, I should do that, andI just wanted to say to people
not necessarily take all the thetitles literally.
(34:35):
They're often again uh, elusive, not elusive, like.
I'm alluding to some thingslike um, like, uh, like
madonna's like a virgin is onthere has nothing to do with sex
in the book, but that was whatwas playing in the background
during an important moment there.
Speaker 1 (34:57):
Yeah, very cool, very cool.
So what did you learn?
If you learned anything, I'mjust going to assume you did.
What are some things youlearned about yourself in
writing the book?
Speaker 2 (35:07):
Well, I'll reiterate it.
I'll reiterate one thing whichwas just, um, like I said, my
ability to just sort of lock inand and um and have, and my
discipline really really justsort of kicked in.
I know a couple people havesaid, oh my gosh, you, you wrote
it so fast and and all that.
(35:28):
But I mean, I wasn't playingaround and and not because I
anything to prove, I just I justit, just once, once the once
the gears kicked in, I was justgo, I would, I would just really
write.
I got to a point where Icouldn't stop writing, you know
so.
So yeah, that that was great.
And then I just I guess theother thing.
(36:10):
And then I just I guess theother thing.
I don an entire chapter to oneof my older cousins, a woman, a
female cousin, and what herexperience was like going to
college.
I didn't even know the story,remember.
I described like these tentpolemoments.
(36:31):
I was like, oh, when didcollege come up?
Right, that was the thing Ineeded, was like, oh, when did
college come up?
Right, that was the thing Ineeded to answer.
When did college come up?
And it was.
I remember having a favoritet-shirt, that my, that I got
from my cousin that had the nameof a school on it, and so I
called her up and I was like,hey, tell me about your time at
(36:52):
the school, right?
I didn't know.
She didn't complete, I didn't.
There were so many things we're, we're 10 years apart or
something like that.
And she went off to college anddidn't finish, and when she
told me her story there weresome things she experienced that
I also experienced later, youknow, and I didn't know that.
(37:15):
And so, anyway, I tell herstory and I tell the story of
some other cousins too, and Ijust again wanting to show the
nuances and complexities ofparticularly being Black, first
gen and working class, and notjust share my own story.
(37:36):
So there was so many surprisesalong the way.
I'm like what you did, what Ihad no idea, you know, sometimes
some things just aren't talkedabout in families.
Speaker 1 (37:51):
Yeah, and and you're it's kind of your willingness to
ask questions and to reach outto people added a lot to you and
to other people that broughtthem out, because you were
willing to talk about thosethings.
Speaker 2 (38:05):
Well, again, I had to get over that whole thing of
like writing is a solitary actyou do by yourself.
So once I got over that and oneof the things I'll just say,
because it did get kind ofemotional, one of the things
that was challenging Jen, though, in reaching back out to my
good friend, reaching back outto my good good friend Sean, or
my cousin William or Lenita, Ialways knew that that my family
(38:30):
really supported me.
I just had so much, so muchsupport.
But I also know and I heard itin their voice, like when I
reached back out, that kind oflike it was there's definitely a
tension between people beingexcited for me and people also
feeling like they got that Ileft, or like you know what I
(38:52):
mean and so that's something Iwrestle with in the book as well
is that, in being upheld as thesmart one, it also kind of
meant that I was built to leave.
You know, like that that was.
That was really hard.
It was like you're smart andyou gotta go.
(39:12):
We don't want you to go, butyou gotta go.
You know what I mean.
That that's a real challenge, Ithink.
First, gens, no matter whatgeneration, race, ethnicity, et
cetera many of us experiencequite a bit just that great
tension of that.
Speaker 1 (39:35):
Yeah, absolutely so.
Let me close with this questionthen.
I know you have First Gen Juiceand the Catalyst Awards and you
put all these great books outthere for us to read about first
gen narratives and hope that wewill use those books, you know,
as we talk to students or asconversation starters or book
(39:56):
clubs or whatever we might do.
How do you hope that peoplelike me and everyone who's
listening are going to use yourbook in our work?
Speaker 2 (40:08):
Yeah, well, many of the things that you describe
right, whether it is a book clubor a workshop.
But I'll say that, in tellingmy origin story and leaning in
to my school experience, Ireally think this book will
(40:29):
resonate with a number ofdifferent audiences.
Yes, it could be K-throughfolks still in high school or
K-through 12, especially as Idescribe my own concern about
taking AP classes and sort ofbeing in and out of honors
classes.
I think that's really resonantwith folks still in high school
(40:52):
and obviously, college students.
But hello, graduate schoolstudents and professional school
students.
Trust me, there's many, manypages devoted to what that
experience is like and how doyou write a dissertation and all
that.
So I hope folks still ingraduate or even considering
(41:13):
graduate professional schoolwill pick it up as well.
And then, of course, being afirst-gen professional and staff
or folks who are, let's say, inthis case, in my age range or
consider themselves Gen X,because we often don't see our
stories represented.
I don't know how Gen X fellthrough the cracks, but by
(41:35):
embracing the music of the timesand the pop culture references,
I'm also solidifying the Gen Xexperience too.
So you don't have to be acurrent student to gain
something from this book,because I think it will
absolutely validate many folkswho are right now professionals,
(41:57):
often leading programs,developing podcasts, really
shaping and influencing themovement from a different
perspective, as senior leadersor or administrators.
This book is definitely for youbecause I I did not know it for
a really long time and so um.
So, yes, I think it would begreat for staff trainings, I
(42:20):
think it'd be great for employeeresource groups for, for
example.
So those are just a few ways inwhich people could address it.
There's going to be a podcasttoo, by the way.
Thank you for inspiring me.
Speaker 1 (42:36):
All for podcasts?
Yay, that's fantastic.
And is that going to be basedon your book about the themes
around your book?
Speaker 2 (42:45):
that going to be based on your book about the
themes around your book.
So this will be in concert withone of my really good friends,
uh, professor samantha pinto.
She is a scholar of blackfeminist theory at ut austin and
I told sam and she hasn't evenread the the whole book yet.
I was like sam, this really isa black feminist text and I
think it would be really greatto have, you know, bring her
(43:06):
lens to the conversation and soit'll be probably more thematic,
I guess, and she's got someideas for guests and things like
that.
But Smart Girl, the podcastwill come out sometime in 2025.
Speaker 1 (43:22):
Okay, all right, which is just around the corner
which is basically tomorrow.
All right, all right, well, letus let me know so I can promote
it and get it out there.
I so appreciate you coming onand talking about this book.
I can't wait for other peopleto read it, because I'm excited
to read it.
Because I only read that firstchapter.
I'm like, wait, it's over, likewhere are the chapters?
(43:44):
Down down, down, jen.
I need to know how you became aCeltic fan.
You teased that, and now I needto know.
So I've got to get the book.
So when is it coming out?
How can people find it?
And if people want to reach you, how can they find you?
Speaker 2 (43:57):
Well, pre-sales begin in a matter of days, and anyone
will be able to go to, you know, your traditional places like
amazon and barnes and nobleonline.
It'll ship, though it won't.
You won't get it before the endof the year.
It'll ship early next year, butyou and I please, please,
pre-order though, becausepre-ordering is really important
(44:18):
.
That's how, um, that's howlibraries and bookstores know to
carry something in stock, andso we're going to do a heavy
promotion for the presale, butthen folks will be able to
actually get it in their hotlittle hands in early 2025.
Speaker 1 (44:38):
Okay, something to look forward to in the new year.
Speaker 2 (44:41):
I'm excited about that to look forward to in the
new year.
I'm excited about that.
Well, I hope that you are ableto come to the December 22nd
book launch and then I will be.
I'll be, you know, going todifferent places across the
country and talking about thebook.
So if anyone wants to, wants toinvite me, I'd be happy to.
Speaker 1 (45:01):
To talk more.
All right, as long as we putyou up as close as possible to
the TD Garden, you wouldconsider coming to Boston.
Speaker 2 (45:12):
I love Boston.
Speaker 1 (45:13):
Bribe you with the Celtics game, you'll be all set.
Speaker 2 (45:15):
I'll be all set, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (45:18):
So I will put some links in the show notes as well
as your website, and I know youhave ways for people to contact
you on there, so I'll includethat.
Speaker 2 (45:28):
Absolutely.
Yeah, look for me on InstagramFirstGenandJuice also, dr LT
ReSmiles.
Either one and yeah, let meknow what you think.
Speaker 1 (45:38):
All right.
Thank you so much, lt, and soyou know how to reach LT.
If you want to get in touchwith me, you can reach me at Jen
, that's J-E-N at firstjenfmcomand I would love to hear your
review, your ideas, yourthoughts on the book and if
there are other books out therethat you want me to talk to,
authors or topics you want me tocover in the podcast, I'm happy
(46:01):
to hear them.
So thank you so much forjoining me, lt, and for you out
there listening.
Thank you so much for listeningand reviewing and rating the
podcast.
I really appreciate it.
Have a great week and I'll talkto you next week, thank you.
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