November 5, 2024 • 60 mins
Brian Cham remains in the studio to talk about his "6 Deal-Breakers of Bad Flag Design" and how they're meant to complement other works, not override them. We go over some of the Aotearoa (New Zealand) designs, and I give my thoughts on what the best redesign would be.
Also, PLEASE VOTE!
Brian's page HERE
Show notes HERE
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/flagged-for-content--5732422/support.
Also, PLEASE VOTE!
Brian's page HERE
Show notes HERE
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/flagged-for-content--5732422/support.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
We've got and.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
If the imagine matters, will you might even get to
standards and what they represented to just take my voices
hand a little tunder standard. This logic podcast Cular Factook counts.
Speaker 3 (00:22):
That wood count.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
What's up Beck's Heads?
Speaker 4 (00:26):
And Welcome to episode sixty one, Part two of Flagged
for Content. It's the only podcast where the host got
married a couple of weekends ago and had to take
some time to do a bunch of other stuff that
wasn't editing.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
His podcast anyway.
Speaker 4 (00:44):
All that to say, I do apologize for this one
being way later than I said it was going to be.
I think I said it would be the same week
and that was clearly wrong.
Speaker 3 (00:55):
Uh.
Speaker 4 (00:56):
Speaking of things that are wrong, it would be wrong
for you to not order flags from Flags for Good,
which is our show's sponsor. You can find all sorts
of political flags there, regardless of what way the election
goes today. I'm sure they will have some good ones
(01:17):
either way. Anyway, use code flagged for content when you
check out it is flagged for like the number digit
for whatever content, and yeah, you'll get a suite I
think ten percent off and kick a little bit to
the show as well. Speaking of the election. I am
(01:37):
releasing this on election Day hopefully, and if you haven't
already done so, if you are an American, please get
out and vote. Please go out and vote the correct way.
I think you know what it is. I don't think
I have to say it, but anyway, I will be
working the election today, so you know, thoughts and pre
(02:00):
and all that good stuff. The only notes that I
had to go into before this one is that this
was taped a little bit before Nava fifty eight. There's
a bit near the end where we say, hey, I
hope everyone comes to Nava fifty eight. So I hope
you came to Nava fifty eight. If not, please come
(02:20):
to fifty nine. It's in Seattle. I have the flag
for that, thanks to a DA Ball to leave, and
I will show that one soon in an upcoming video. Okay,
I did already say sorry for the delay. I had
a wedding, I got married, and I wanted to shout
out the folks that came. Curtis Tarver, who's been on
the show a couple of times, Tara Stark, who's been
(02:42):
on the show and did design the Keystone flag, and
Michael Green, who has again been on the show. You're
seeing a theme here and is the proud owner of
Flags for Good. Thank you guys so much. It was
an honor having all of you there. That aside, let's
see to do. Yeah, join the discord in the Patreon.
(03:03):
I say that every week or well every I guess
nine weeks whenever this show comes out.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
But do join the discord.
Speaker 4 (03:10):
It is where we have a lot of really good conversations,
and as I mentioned near the end of this episode,
it's where a lot of the questions come from as well.
So and the Patreon just always has some good bonus content,
so you know, worth checking out. There's like a two
dollars level if you want to do that. And yeah,
I think the last note I had was one of
(03:30):
the bears repeating, which is happy in quotes election day.
Let's hope it's not the last one we ever have.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
All that aside, I had.
Speaker 4 (03:39):
A great continuation of a conversation with Brian Sham, who
is a joy to talk to and who knows his
way around a flag and a flag committee as well.
This episode mostly focused on his six deal breakers of
bad flag design. We put it up against the good
(04:01):
Flag Bad Flag rubric. A few other considerations as well. Yeah,
it's mostly about that, but there's a little bit of
other stuff thrown in here as well. So I think
you guys are going to really enjoy this one. And again,
please vote, Please vote.
Speaker 3 (04:21):
Ah.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
Here we go, all.
Speaker 4 (04:24):
Right, and we are back Part three more with Brian
cham And. Yeah, that was a fascinating walk through the
Minnesota Flag Commission, like the ins and outs of all that,
what it's like to be on one, which you know,
I hope to be on one, even like half that
size someday. And as mentioned, we do have some listener
(04:44):
and viewer questions. We got to a couple of them,
but I'm just gonna walk us through. I think there's
three that we haven't gotten to, and I'm gonna start
with this one.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
This is from Wallaby, Oh four.
Speaker 4 (04:59):
This is Evan Stewart, who was in our discord and
has been a past guest on the show. He says,
if you can ask him why the north Star flag
was cut so early? I get that maybe a sensitive topic,
so it's fair if it's unmentioned. So he tell me
if you want me to cut this, but do you
know why it was cut so early?
Speaker 1 (05:19):
Any insight on that?
Speaker 3 (05:21):
Well, by the time we came in without full collaboration
as advisors, six finals had already been chosen, and that
had been done by individual voting members of the commission. Okay,
so there wasn't any you know, central reason why that
flag wasn't chosen for the finals. It would have just
(05:44):
been up to the individual choices of those voting members.
And by the time yeah, by the time we were
involved more deeply, that decision had already been made, had
already been publicized, so they weren't really in a position
to revive that selection.
Speaker 4 (06:00):
Okay, yeah, fair and simple. I'm trying to think of
the order on these last two. Let's go with let's
let's let's start with.
Speaker 3 (06:14):
J. G.
Speaker 4 (06:15):
Davis seventy eight, who I gather is not the biggest
fan of the flag. But they say, with so many
decent designs to choose from, what were they thinking?
Speaker 3 (06:25):
Why?
Speaker 1 (06:26):
Why?
Speaker 4 (06:26):
So basically just somebody who doesn't love the final design?
What do you say to, you know, to the haters?
Speaker 3 (06:34):
Perhaps, well, uh, I will share something on my screen
for the haters.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
Okay, is it just going to be a giant middle
finger graphic?
Speaker 3 (06:51):
I'll be a bit more that. Ah, Okay, the results
of the two survey that we did for New American
Familiar rated flags. As you can see, uh, you know,
we all rated them, our members all rated them on
(07:12):
average eighth grade. You can see they're very complicated. They've
got logos and text everywhere.
Speaker 4 (07:16):
I still want that Springfield Township one. I'm not gonna lie,
I still want that one.
Speaker 3 (07:22):
It's always very cartoony, isn't it.
Speaker 4 (07:24):
Uh huh Michael Green and I have plans to go
there and get one, uh someday, someday anyway.
Speaker 3 (07:34):
Interesting, So now right, well, yeah, look, I can't make you,
you know, like the final flag if that's start what
you genuinely enjoy. However, the reason why I'm showing you
(07:55):
the city flags is to I just need to remind
you that when you have flag commissions, and they often
made from people made up of members who are not fixologists,
and if fixologists are not involved, then they often end
up with selection like one of these.
Speaker 4 (08:16):
Yes, and even I mean kind of to that point,
sorry about end, but kind of to that point that
one that you had before as a one that could
have potentially won that one with a little green landscape, yeah,
I mean cautionary tail type stuff.
Speaker 3 (08:32):
Exactly. I brought that up, Yeah, just to show like
the impact of our unvolved and even if you're one
hundred percent aligned with you know, the way the process
went or the way the final flag was chosen, at
least I hope we can agree that we saved it
and then we saved Minnesota for having something like this
(08:53):
or something like that cautionary tale that I showed with
all the ways on it. So that is what I
will try to try to show to any of the
It's at least a great not to have something.
Speaker 4 (09:02):
Like this, absolutely all right, Yeah, and uh, you know,
and all flags are gonna have haters, you know. I
guess like if you live in a municipality or somewhere
where you have a bad.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
Flag, get out and change it. That's a that's all
we can say.
Speaker 4 (09:16):
And then all right, So I think the final flag
or final flag final question on that topic is from
Grant dot duh dot Coda.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
That is Coda.
Speaker 4 (09:27):
They're a big fan, big listener. I met them working
at a.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
Map store in Seattle.
Speaker 4 (09:34):
I'm not sure if they want me to say or not,
but yeah, they work at a very cool map store
in Seattle. Anyway, I'll stop gushing, but they asked, what
is the hardest part of being in a design committee.
Speaker 3 (09:50):
Well, Coon is actually one of the members of the
never fifty nine like design committee. That right, Yes, I
think we have that we have a bit of experience there. Yeah,
I think that that went along very smoothly because you know,
we're both exil or just we had a very good
sense of what would make a good flag. When it
came to the more more substantial a wider arranging commission,
(10:15):
I think being part of the design team itself, that
that went quite clearly as well. I think the main
challenge was when we reached out back to to the
wider commission. There there's often very little consensus and it
(10:35):
can be very hard to get everyone on the same
page or come to a decision about specific flags, get
them all aligned on the same process. And that's that's
the sort of thing where the head of the commission
(10:55):
was really instrumental and you know, in encouraging everyone to
get aligned, telling them, you know how important it was
to get something for the deadline, encouraging people to yeah,
come come to decisions together, even if it wasn't you know,
what they wanted. That was That's the only way that
(11:20):
you can get you know, a real povision on a
really great tha like otherwise you just go round and
round in circles, which is honestly, to be honest, you
know that that there's something that, yeah, that can happen
in the in these sort of commissions. At some point
the disagreements need to come together and become something productive
for sure.
Speaker 4 (11:41):
And given that you are, I mean, I can't say where,
but and I've hinted at it a million times this
episode already, but like, I am going to be part
of a design committee that you're heading. Again, we won't
mention specifics, but like, uh, do you find so you
have headed design committe and you've been a.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
Part of them.
Speaker 4 (12:02):
I'm just curious, And this may be a dumb question,
but I know I've variously liked being in charge and
liked being not in charge with certain jobs. Do you
have a preference as far as leading a committee versus
being on one?
Speaker 3 (12:16):
Well, when it comes to the solology, I'm always happy
to be in both positions. Yeah, I think being the
commission has a lot of advantages that I can bring
everyone on the same page and get the wall lined
(12:37):
in the discussion to get sure. It's what I do
in the flag design form all the.
Speaker 1 (12:41):
Time, right right, I do that.
Speaker 3 (12:43):
I discuss it while I'm working on designs in real time.
It's really good to get to, you know, encourage everyone
to contribute to their ideas and try out different things feedback.
I do enjoyed that part of it as well.
Speaker 4 (12:56):
Absolutely, all right, cool, Well, I think we can move
on from Minnesota with this last little segment that we've
got here. I want to go into I think what
most people know you for the most other outside of
the Minnesota stuff, and that is your six deal breakers
of bad flag design. Uh So I will go ahead
(13:17):
and just throw it to you because you can explain
them better than I can. But take us on a
little bit of walk okay, ye, yeah, you've got the
you've got them pulled up here. Yeah, take us on
like kind of a short little walk through what these
are and and how you came up with.
Speaker 3 (13:31):
Well, so the six deal breaker is of bad flag design,
our list of six factors that can make or break
a blank design and the opinion. So this is based
on analysis of my home countries as flag Referrendum from
twenty fifteen twenty sixteen. The public had a lot of
(13:53):
commentary on the design, and I and another bixilogist collected
a lot of these and found I identified the common
themes behind why the public were redicting a lot of
the fire is design and these are the sexts that
we came up with and we we live. I presented
this during a previous NEVER conference as a way of
(14:17):
giving them lessons on, you know, future flag design efforts
so that they don't fall into these traps. It's very
good design.
Speaker 1 (14:30):
Yeah, you all should go watching you have access to it.
Speaker 3 (14:35):
So the first one is looks like a logo, not
a flag. This is something that I've seen a lot
in American city flag designs as well. Oh yeah, looks
like they're not a fact that one's kind of similar,
but it's more about the symbolism being something very informal.
I can tell you that in Minnesota's like Design comm
(15:00):
we did have some that were quite based on like
specific sports team symbolism and we were where that's going
to end up looking at it.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
For a certain dogs, certain Golden Retrievers.
Speaker 3 (15:11):
That as well. Yeah, right, And the design on the
top right is the final alternative plank that we had
in the referendum, and that that illustrates those first two points.
Look like a logo and look like souvenir people, Yeah,
(15:31):
people did not feel like it was a very flaglike
and in this composition m The next point is mystery symbolism.
So that's when the design is too abstract that no
one can really understand what it is, what it means,
or how it relates to the pakes that they're in.
So the design and the bottom left is another one
(15:51):
of the finalists that that fell into that track. It's
something that people really resonated with, but only once they
had read full explanation, or it looks as a complete
mystery you can understand how it related to the country
at all. Yes, the next point is designing for yourself,
(16:12):
so you know, every person has their own preferences on
what sort of symbols or sort of colors, what a
design theme should be on a flag their place, and
if you link too strongly into that, then you will
limit public resonance of that design because it's not going
to appeal to people who want other other things in
(16:33):
the design. I'm not suggesting you put in you know
everything to feel to everyone. Try try to try to
just try to have a bit of sympathy. I just
think in terms, think about the fact that you're designing
for the whole population, You're not designing purely for yourself.
The next one is too radical. This is when the
(16:57):
play design is a way too different from anything. Symbolism
that republicacy previously familiarity is something that is quite us
quite important for them to accept a new flag design.
And the last one is borring for the works. I
(17:19):
know this is one that hit really a bit so. Yeah,
I said, simplicity is always good in a flag, and
whenever I go through these, you know, flag redesign processes,
it is important. You know, usually the submissions are too
complic that they need to simplify them. But there is
a point where they've become so boring that no one
(17:44):
really gets excited by it. As you mentioned with the
finalists with the waves, that's trying to make you excited,
like you know, flags are something that you should feel
proud of. You should feel like you know you're excited
to fly it. There should be I shape, you have
something that's too basic, then you're not going to get that.
(18:07):
I don't have an example. Yeah, but if you look
on the top left, that's our current flag. And one
proposal was just to remove the union jack and just
leave the sun across on an empty blue field. And
that's something that's simply too barring. Yeah, just empty and land.
Speaker 4 (18:24):
Yeah it'll it'll again be in the show notes. But
if if viewers and listeners want to, yeah, just even
just google the six deal Breakers a bad flag design
that will bring up i mean one year page where
it's hosted, and yeah, you can go through like the
whole go through all of it. And yeah, I went
through as a as a reread earlier today and I
had somehow forgotten about that one. I had forced it
(18:46):
out of my mind. But then yeah, once I got
to that sixth one and saw it without the union jack,
I was like, God, I forgot how boring that is.
I mean, I don't love it with the union jack.
That's you know, my preference. I don't love flags with
the you know, the union up top there, but it's
worse without it.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
Like in that case anyway.
Speaker 3 (19:07):
It's too empty for sure, gloring.
Speaker 4 (19:22):
So I was gonna before we get like any further
into that, because like, obviously there is a little bit
more to get into with the deal breakers, but just
to kind of bridge the segments, because one of the
questions does this, uh Max from Sweden, who has been
a previous guest, as a lot of these folks have,
but he asked, uh. He said, you could ask Brian
(19:43):
if he thinks the whole Minnesota process confirmed his deal
breakers or if he learned something new, uh, And that is,
if he thinks that it's applicable on flag redesigns outside
of New Zealand, because that's where most of your examples
come from. So I was curious, and obviously he was
curious to know, uh, kind of how you apply that to.
Speaker 1 (20:03):
Minnesota, or if it changed your thinking on it or
any of that.
Speaker 3 (20:07):
I think that process was a real test of this list,
because I wasn't even quite sure how well it would apply.
But I think that based on the public reception that
I saw and even the commissions just owned discussions, these
points really did come up again quite strongly. Looks like
(20:32):
a logo, looks like a souvenir. This is something that
came up during the finalists, but a should you know
if I showed you the one that looks like a
fool logo? You know some people felt the same way,
and they made that same some comment that looks you know,
like a logo looks through trendy. It's not like a
flag mystery simple mystery symbolism wasn't really much of effective
(20:54):
because I think the commission only chose things that they
could understand. Is related to minutes, Okay, yeah, designing for yourself, Uh,
that one not so much. I feel like the designs
from Minnesota all sort of centered on the same design thing,
which is sort of a north star and some sort
(21:15):
of watery representation, you know, rivers and color blue and
that sort of thing. I feel like maybe they just
have a stronger you know, visual identity, and there aren't
that many options to choose from to us. So the
next one two radical.
Speaker 2 (21:37):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (21:38):
Again, there may have been some designs that were you know,
way too different to be recognizable that even then, commission
only chose things that they could understand sort of the
first gland. They have a lot to go through, so
they only chose things that have, you know, the north
star some sort of blue and that's something that those
(21:58):
both things that are white recognizable quite familiar to the public.
So they got around that last one. It's boring that
it works.
Speaker 1 (22:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (22:09):
Funnily enough, the final design that we actually chose that
actually drew some of that exact point. Some people will say, well,
saying well, look at the truth pland that's why some
preferred versions with stripes on them, is that that's just
a case where we had to make a judgment call
(22:31):
about you know, how far it's too far in terms
of simplification. We felt that with the unique shape of
Minnesota on there, as well as the too lose which
is a very distinct part of any US state flag,
(22:53):
having you know, covering the entire canvas, we felt that
made it uh, you know, interesting enough that you can
still that you would still be how to fly, it
would still be eye catching. And as you can see,
as I said, showing you on the on the one
of the previous slides, yeah you see it even on
(23:16):
a tiny pin like on someone jacket, and even that
gobble little riled up. So I think did George's job there,
even though it was quite simple. So I think a
lot of what I saw in Minnesota, some of these points,
it was just some more than others because of you know,
the different symbolism and the different circumstances.
Speaker 4 (23:36):
There Okay, yeah, no, shoot asked an answer. That's that's perfect. Yeah,
that that makes sense. I was wondering my the one
sticking point I was thinking that that you might have
that that we might have was number six. There the
boring but it works thing, just because that's been like
if I had a criticism, that would be it.
Speaker 1 (23:59):
Uh all right, yeah, so worth moving on.
Speaker 4 (24:01):
We have taught on our show about your six deal
Breakers before. I don't think it's an episode that I
like linked you to. It was only about three episodes
ago that said I've taken like kind of a long
summer hiatus here, so it was also about two months
ago at this point. There are people that take good flag,
(24:23):
bad flag as gospel. There are people that take yours
as gospel. There are people that try and rectify both.
People like to draw a lot from both, and I'm
curious to know where you think the kind of overlap is,
where they work together where they may not.
Speaker 3 (24:41):
Yeah, well, I think that the six deal break is
a bad flag design really compliments the principles from good Flag,
Bad Flag. I think that people sort of misunderstood some
of my work. I mean, to be honest, I think
even Tid misunderstands some of this. He thinks that these
are trying to almost have replace those original we talked
(25:02):
a little, or he thinks that they're sort of in conflict.
I don't think about it that way.
Speaker 4 (25:06):
We did mention wanting to fight you and said something
about meeting out back of now fifty eight.
Speaker 3 (25:12):
But yeah, oh boy, I have to keep that in mind.
Thanks for wanting me. I'll be very good, noah.
Speaker 1 (25:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (25:20):
So the way I see it is that an effective
flag has four aims. It should be remembered, recognized, reproduced,
and resonate for oursive flag divide. Okay, right, it's principles
good flag, bad flag. It deals with those first reacts.
If you make a flag that centrale, no texts, or
(25:41):
sealed a few colors, very distinctive, you know, from a
visual point of view, then it's very easy to remember,
I recognize and reproduce visually at a distance or hanging
a waving Yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (25:56):
What I come up with is how you deal with
that fourth principle, how you resonate the public. And I
think that there is no tug of war between what
kd K has come up with and what I've come
up with I've put a little diagram at the bott
to illustrate my thoughts. Here, the bin diagram on the
left is good flag, bad flag, on the right of
(26:18):
six steel breakers. Yeah, there will be flag designs that
satisfied the good flag bad flag, but they don't appeal
to the public. That's what we had in New Zealand.
That would be sort of on the left side of
that bin diagram. And there are also flags that you know,
people in the public might be enthusiastic about that they
(26:39):
are not affected designs that would be on the right
rong side of that bin diagram. You know, some of
those city flags, some of those really or whole city flags,
some of the lower ranking USA flags still like those.
I'm not suggesting that you should, you know, take the
six steel breakers you know, at face value, and accept
(27:02):
publicly ah publicly accepted flags at the detriment of good
flag backplate. What I suggest is that intersection in the
middle of the diagram where you are satisfying both the
principles of effective design and public satisfaction and find flag
and should find flags that work together to satisfy both
(27:26):
of those so that it can be remembered, recognized, produced,
and resonate, they compliment each other. There is no there
should be no conflict. And as you which this is
what I try to recommend, as you clarify, Yeah, as
you see, as we advise to flag design commissions, this
(27:51):
is part of how you select flight and how you
how you should revise flights to end up, it's as
you can in that ideal zone where you have and
have a design that is as effective as possible on
a visual level, but also satisfies public on their level
as well. So I don't see it as any conflict.
(28:15):
And I think, yeah, even Ted sort of misunderstands my
aim with this, thinks that I'm sort of trying to
override or being conflict with a good flag bad play.
I don't. I don't. I don't see it that way. Off,
There are only two parts where I think that it
could be potentially conflict. And I think it's interesting because
(28:37):
in his advice for uh, you know, state city flag redesigns,
it's actually updated as presentation.
Speaker 1 (28:47):
You're doing too.
Speaker 3 (28:49):
Directly free, empty and refute some of the points I've
made and six deal breakers, which I honestly see is
quite an honor because it means like he's he has
been botherowed by what I said so much, actually, but
it's interesting the way he's interpreted it, because he's he's founded. Yeah,
he agrees with the six deal breakers on the level
(29:10):
that yes, this is what the public thinks. Then they
evaluate whether they like a flag or not. But he
sees that almost as a cautionary tale, something that he's
got to warn them against, whereas I'm seeing it as Okay,
you've got to actually take the public seriously and incorporate
that feedback and try to make designs.
Speaker 1 (29:26):
That written so it seems reasonable.
Speaker 3 (29:29):
Typically advised these commissions and councils not to aim for
instant recognition. He says. Yeah, he tries to say that,
you know a lot of people will not understand the
design at first glance, but you shouldn't aim for that.
You can have something that's more abstract from them that
(29:51):
you need to explain. As you make it official and
roll it up, people will get used to it, people
will understand what it means. And he sort of ested
that if you do make if you do aim for
instant reasoners, then you end up with very generic flags
that sort of are very understandable to you know, almost
(30:13):
the lowest common denominator, someone who has no understanding of
the symbolism and can only understand what they see at first, guys.
And that's why you you end up with a lot
of flags that you end up looking re generic, look
like landscape postcards, because they sort of feel like they
have to go with something that can be understood immediately.
Speaker 1 (30:35):
Yeah, okay, we have mountains, we have a beach. Yeah yeah, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (30:42):
I can understand why you would want to, you know,
advise them away from the kind of outcome because that
is you know, quite generic and a lot of places
of mountains and beaches and yeah, you know, you end
up looking all looking the same because you know, if
you're only restricting yourself to design elements that will understand immediately,
then it looks the same. I can understand way feel
(31:04):
that way. I do feel like that applying the six
steel Breakers is a little bit different for a city
into a country. So my analysis was based on a
country where there is an established set of national civilism,
national colors. There's already a lot of history and culture.
(31:25):
If you are designing a flag for a city, then
you may not have a lot of that pre existing
visual material that people can't understand resonate with at first clans,
so I can understand, and I will admit that, you know,
the lesson that I that I've been trying to advise about,
(31:47):
trying to you know, not making completely mysterious symbolism may
not apply as much to smaller places, small cities, and
to some degree you will have to come up with
something that you will have to explain and have to impose.
So I do think I can sort of promisee and
leap with them halfway there on that point, because I
don't want you know, I mean, there's a great flag,
(32:09):
but I don't want I don't want every flag to
look like this, and they are out of and a
lot of the new ones are starting to sort of
look very similar.
Speaker 1 (32:18):
Yeah, agreed.
Speaker 3 (32:20):
So yeah, I'll also note that even for smaller cities,
if you do have to, you know, impose some symbolism,
some meaning, uh, even if yeah, yeah, even if it's
not immediately understandable, it would be good if it could
at least give them a good first impression that leads
them in the right direction. Ah, you know, if it
(32:44):
is something, But I mean I'm not suggesting, you know,
you have to directly put in the mountains, directly put
in the feature something. But if they can give them
that general feeling, that general vibe where they feel, oh,
this feels like maybe you know, a tropical kind of
place or maybe a place that could be in Texas,
and you put them in the right direction.
Speaker 4 (33:06):
You can accomplish that in different well, you can accomplish
that with color palettes and things that aren't just like
a two D thing of mountains like you can exactly.
There's a lot of different ways to accomplish that.
Speaker 1 (33:17):
Yeah, yeah, I hear you.
Speaker 3 (33:19):
Yeah, so I understand tense advice. I would half agree
with it, but I would still advocate even if you
can't make everything instantly understandable and instantly resonant, you know,
at least make at least give them a good impression
that leads them in the right direction so that they
do feel like they can connete with it. Yeah. And
(33:51):
the second yeah, again, same question, how to reconcile simplicity
with not being bland. I think Ted sort of misunder
stands that point as me advocating for, you know, ignoring
the first part of good flag bad like ignoring the
part where it's is keep it simple and trying to
keep it more. I think some people have also latched
(34:13):
on onto my advice. Yeah, some people who really enjoy
the more complicated designs complicated at a point where it
doesn't even work as a design, and they think I'm
trying to advocate for that.
Speaker 4 (34:27):
What.
Speaker 3 (34:28):
The way that I I reconcile this, because I do
think simpler designs are better, is that there are lots
of iconic flags that are very bland, very boring. For example,
the flags of France literally playing tricolors. They're quite famous.
And the reason why you can, you know, they sort
(34:50):
of get away with being so simple, is because they
have a lot of historical president They've been around for
hundreds of years. And these are three Yeah, well, no
kind of. But if you're designing a new flag, you're
doing it from scratch, and you will need publicity. You'll
need people to get excited about the new drag as
it's being designed, as it's being rolled out. So you
(35:12):
can't be as simple as like the French flag or
the Italian flag. Color to something a little more interstate,
not complicated, but a little more interesting. And I have
these two examples to demonstrate how you can be simple
but not too simple.
Speaker 1 (35:29):
Yeah, this is the perfect example.
Speaker 4 (35:31):
When I came across this slide, I was like, oh
my god, I never thought of it in this way,
and I couldn't have couldn't have said it better.
Speaker 3 (35:37):
Yeah. Yeah. The national flag of Indonesia versus Switzerland, both
of them, you know, it's a theory as simple as
each other. Both got two colors, two fabric panels, you know,
one red, one white. Indonesian flag is a plan by color.
It's boring, you know. People don't get excited about it.
Speaker 1 (35:58):
It gets confused with poland Monaco.
Speaker 3 (36:00):
And confused with a few others.
Speaker 1 (36:03):
Put something good for if the you know, if the
elements are yeah.
Speaker 3 (36:07):
Yeah, it's unidentifiable. It gets blown upside down a lot.
No one knows which way up it's supposed to go. Generally,
just you're too bland and too boring.
Speaker 1 (36:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (36:19):
Whereas Switzerland, on the other hand, that's still a simple design,
but that doesn't fall into the trap of being too boring.
It's still very iconic. Move well. It works in all
these different contexts. That's why I say it's so it's underrated.
On a Swiss army, I works on works on obl
(36:40):
it's a very striking design. So I think that you
can have something that is simple, that that's good flag,
bad flag, while also not falling into that trap of
being too bland. I think that's a sort of balancing
act that I was we were trying to do with
the new flag of Minnesota, something that is simple worked
(37:00):
as a flag, but also closer to you know, the
Splitzerland example than the Indonesia example.
Speaker 1 (37:08):
Yes, for obvious reasons.
Speaker 3 (37:10):
Yeah, I mean, I know people criticize those who revolved
with the final design because we rooted the stripes and
made it very simple, and well, we may have made
it too simple, but I would just like to say,
if that we were, you know, we were committed to
going that overboard on publicity, we could have even removed
the star and just left it as the shape of Minnesota. Right,
(37:34):
Why we didn't go that far?
Speaker 1 (37:36):
Yeah, if you want to trust me, yeah, we don't.
Speaker 3 (37:39):
We don't advocate. I don't advocate for that level of bladness.
Trust me. I did use We did use a best
judgment to keep it within that right balance.
Speaker 1 (37:51):
Great, Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 4 (37:52):
Do you want to go into do you want to
go into the designs anymore? Or are we are we
better saving that for another time?
Speaker 1 (38:01):
These last.
Speaker 3 (38:03):
Or oh right, forgot about this one. Yeah, these are
just other questions that people have had about the sixt
deal breakers. Yeah, when does the when does the flag
walk like a logo? One of the one of the
lessons was, yeah, don't make the flag to logo like
I just got some examples. Yeah, it is a bit
(38:24):
subjective a lot with alternative flag. It is quite logo
like in its composition. I mean I I sort of
it's a website fan it, yes, composed, But at the
same time, it's not like one of the US city
flags that are literally used to logo on a bit
(38:44):
cheek but colfax I always sort of you know waderline
example that. Yeah, it's subjective. I think you just need
to compare it, you know, side by side with more
conventional flag and likes that look obviously like bogos and
just ask yourself, we're it falls on that scale? It
(39:06):
close to one end or the other. Yeah. Another question is, yeah,
do the populations preferences change. So here's an example that
I criticized in six Steal Breakers, saying, you know, yeah,
this was what I.
Speaker 4 (39:19):
Had not I've not seen outside of the context of
reading the Six deal Breakers, and maybe reason I don't know.
Speaker 3 (39:26):
This was to illustrate a mystery symbolism. So the stars
in this particular design, which is a constellation that has
significant to the indigenous smelting population. However, at the time
that that the competition happened, it was this was very obscure,
(39:48):
like even a lot of people in New Zealand would
have had to look up what is this arrangement of stars?
What is not any Since then it is actually a
particular occasion has become a public holiday. So now the
constellation is a bit more well known. Oh okay, And
so people have asked me, like, you know, since then,
(40:09):
do you think that this may have a bit of
chance and do you think you're acting like a public
resonance or something that's facts flinging. In fact, the public
preferences can change over time. I think, uh, even with
this as a public holiday, I don't think this is
still like well lown enough or prominent enough to be like,
(40:32):
you know, the main national symbol. There are still other
symbols that have, you know, hundreds of years of public resonance,
like the silver fern or the key for example, so
this still wouldn't be the strongest designer. You know, I
do understand the point. You know, it's the same with
the silver fern. A lot of people say, you know,
(40:52):
it looks like a logo. Looks like yeah, but there
have been a lot of there's been a lot of
adoption of this non souvenir, non sporting context. On the
on the left hair is my passport, which has a
quite prominent silver fern on the side. And obviously no
(41:13):
one's going to accuse the passport of being, you know,
a sporting related item or a souvenir something cheesy or informal.
So I think that is something that can also change.
I'd also like to come into that streendshot that have
got down at the bottom. I just want to explain
what that is. So there's an Instagram video and it's
all about a man at his citizenship ceremony. So when
(41:38):
he walked on stage, he had a ship on that
had the Indian flag on it, and then as he
as he received his citizenship, he rips it off, rips
off his shirt on stage. Underneath it's this one with
New Zealand and a silver thorn, And I just thought
it was curious that he shows that the silver fern
as the symbol represent it, because if you think if
(41:59):
the on top as the Indian flag and underneath would
be the New Zealand flag, but actually shows them the
silver third. That's just an example. I know it's just
one person, but there's just an example. No, I mean
much more prominent.
Speaker 4 (42:13):
My brain would go to exactly the same place. I
think a lot of people listening would.
Speaker 3 (42:19):
Yeah, I've got I've got various other examples. They're made
in New Zealand, and there's a logo of uh the
New Zealand High Commission, which is our embassy in London.
Curiously enough, our embassy in London actually does not have
the New Zealand flag. It does have a silver fern
logo that is interesting. And lastly is the New Zealand
(42:42):
War Memorial, also in London. These are all my personal photos,
and that has a silver fern on the middle pillar.
There are actually several middle pillars, but the main one
for the Reets Memorial just below that one has a
silver fern.
Speaker 4 (43:01):
I wonder if the reason for that being well, no,
I don't, I mean it like it seems like the
flag is much more likely to change than the fern
being a symbol of New Zealand is would like that's
just not going to change. So it makes sense to
put something that's a little bit more long lasting on
(43:22):
a memorial stone like that. The High Commission like that
seems that's easier to change. You could scrape that off
and change it, but the actual like stone work on
something like that. Yeah, I could understand definitely putting the
fern on it instead of the flag. Probably not even
like so much looking forward to the future possible flag
(43:42):
change reasons. Just it's it's I guess it's more enduring
as a national symbol. I guess is is most of it.
I mean, I doubt like the Australia one has the
Australia flag.
Speaker 3 (43:51):
On it or may I think I don't think. I
found that one very close to the New Zealand one
Isian memorial and the one, as you'd expect, has made
the leaves is this World.
Speaker 1 (44:06):
War one or two.
Speaker 3 (44:08):
I think it's just everything, Okay.
Speaker 4 (44:10):
I didn't know if it was like because I figured
if it was an Zac then Australia'd be like right
near you.
Speaker 3 (44:15):
But I'm not sure where that one is actually Australian
or more well, I didn't see it in the area
when I visited, only in New Zealand and Canada.
Speaker 1 (44:25):
Yeah, I'm curious. I'll just have to go to London.
Speaker 3 (44:30):
Yeah, maybe you know when you're here.
Speaker 1 (44:32):
Will do. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (44:33):
I honestly, I've only been twice and the last time
was in like two thousand and six, so it's been
a minute.
Speaker 3 (44:40):
Wow, oh over you for another visit. Yeah, that was yeah.
The other quick we already answered how well did these supply?
You know, in the American context. I put Utah in
it because I actually did see some of the comments
look very similar. Yeah, a lot of people felt the a.
Speaker 1 (45:00):
Lot of discussion about two logo like on that one
for sure.
Speaker 3 (45:03):
Logo like there's a central element with the high on
the ring. With that it looks yeah, looks a bit
logo like I don't think I vote for I was
involved with Utah. I play design a bit, but not
not as strongly as Minnesota. Yeah. Well, I I feel
(45:24):
like I mean, in all these cases, you just have
to ask yourself, you know, do you feel like there
is an improvement on the previous cl on a bit chip?
And you know, well, once you think about it. In
that perspective, you stop really like, you know, snippicking all
these new designs so I can still appreciate.
Speaker 1 (45:40):
But yeah, in those cases it's a no brainer.
Speaker 3 (45:43):
Yes, yeah, And this is just the last part of
deal breakers presentations. So out of those six deal breakers
and sort of flip them around to tend them into
positives and why these are lessons for what you should
(46:05):
do in a flag design. And so from it looks
like a logo or looks like a souvenir, you come
up with that archive test. You know, would you believe
it if this design came out of an archive fifty
years ago? Mystery symbolism and too radical? Again, you can
ask like would the average person be able to recognize
(46:27):
or resonate with it instantly even if it weren't explained
to them. Of course that's a bit that kid, you know,
disagrees with. But I think for a country level you
already have established symbolism. I think that would work. And
the last part about designing for yourself, that's that's just
the part you ask yourself, are feeling to all the
different groups, not got to like include everything for different
(46:51):
just whether design is appeeling only just like one particular
population or whether it can really represent everyone, and then
you know, with those sort of lessons together, then you
get a design that's that's really going to resonate with everyone.
And these are the designs that we came up with
as a way of addressing the feedback on the New
(47:18):
Zealand finalists and coming up with our own flag designs
that we felt like would be even stronger designs both
from a you know, pixeological point of view, but also
from a public residence point of view, because it's incorporating
the principles of both of those of those things.
Speaker 4 (47:47):
M h.
Speaker 3 (47:52):
But before I explained this, I mean, what are your
first thoughts on these designs? Does anything stand out to you?
Speaker 1 (47:58):
Yeah? I well, actually so the I'm not gonna lie.
Speaker 4 (48:01):
The first thing that stood out to me on all
of these are the two middle lower ones being from Tennessee.
I'm like, why is the stripe on the hoyst side
instead of the fly side? It belongs on the fly side.
Speaker 1 (48:16):
That was the first thing I noticed. Secondly, Yeah, I
don't know, I think like as.
Speaker 4 (48:24):
Far as in order of prefer well, not in total order.
I'm not going to rank them all, but as far
as preference, I don't know. I think I kind of
like the Blue Sky one, the top right one that
you have the best, followed by the Southern Cross with
red stripe like bottom middle.
Speaker 1 (48:42):
I don't know.
Speaker 4 (48:43):
I expected to like the silver Fern more than the
Southern Cross, but looking at these here now I I
skew toward the Southern Cross ones more, although I will
say I think my third would be silver fern with
red stripe, which is the bottom well kind of the
central one.
Speaker 1 (49:00):
Yeah, I couldn't tell you. Like, so the blue Sky one,
I haven't looked at the symbology.
Speaker 4 (49:04):
The symbolism of it is that a volcano mountain, like
I don't know, the other than the Southern Cross.
Speaker 1 (49:09):
I can't guess the symbolism.
Speaker 3 (49:12):
Well. Personally, I think it's interesting that your choice, even
though you say that it's on the wrong side, you
still chose the ones that remind you of your home states.
So yeah, I think that maybe that's there. The Blue
Sky was inspired by actually quite a different selection of finalists,
(49:33):
like and they would recommend yeah, both volcanoes or mountains,
because we do have a very mountainous terrain and they
are quite significant in the multiculture, the southern crosses from
the current flag, and when put together, it forms something
a landscape that's quite intuitive, has instant residents, I know,
(50:01):
and a lot of those other chevron designs, Like it
wasn't really obvious what the hivron was representing, but by
combining the stars and the chivron and this arrangement, it
gets something that's really instant.
Speaker 4 (50:11):
Yeah, it's infinitely better than that one that's just like
the really chunky white chevron with the black, red blue.
Speaker 1 (50:20):
It's way better than that.
Speaker 3 (50:21):
To me, I called that one the red flag. That
was the one that was completely mysterious and didn't really resonate.
Speaker 1 (50:27):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (50:30):
This one we've incorporated part of the current flag. Still
got the red, white and blue and the current flag
and the Union jack as well as a lot of
red which very prestigious color and Miladi culture.
Speaker 4 (50:42):
Right right, I had a question, I guess just yeah,
just as a as a New Zealander. So I've got
it behind me here the Tino Rangatira Tonga I'm guessing here, Well,
here's I'm guessing there's no movement to make that the
national flag because it's probably so strongly associated with Maori
(51:06):
culture that they would rather keep it as a cultural flag.
Speaker 1 (51:08):
Is that like kind of what I'm is that accurate?
Speaker 3 (51:12):
That is accurate?
Speaker 1 (51:14):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (51:14):
I actually had the honor of interviewing last living designer
Linda Mudd and I'll be giving a presentation on that
eight and again we touched on this point specifically, which
is that during this flag competition and referenter process, the
government actually lew her to Wellington and asked her specifically
(51:39):
what she thought about taking that, you know, a tongue
of flag official national flag of New Zealand or dupping
a flag based on it, and she was very upset
at the idea because it was supposedly the flag that
she had designed for her people, for her culture and
(52:00):
becomes the national flag, then they don't have that anymore.
It's been taken away from them. Yeah, so that was
that's something that she was not okay with and she
did not agree with the idea.
Speaker 4 (52:09):
Yeah, that makes intuitive sense to me, but yeah, I
guess like that's the only thing. Like I really like
the blue sky, but I guess like if there were
a way to include black in it, which I don't
know if there is, so maybe that does push silver
fern diagonal a little bit ahead as you've got them.
Speaker 1 (52:26):
There is the most popular designs. Actually, what's that? Based
off of most popular designs? Have you done like poles
and stuff for this?
Speaker 3 (52:34):
I did some poles a while ago, back when you know,
the competition was going on. Sure, some some of those
were just generally among pixel just some of them were
among the Lightning family friends.
Speaker 1 (52:48):
Yeah, it's just curious.
Speaker 3 (52:50):
Yeah, but I mean sort of have to like some
of these are actually done recently. This year, Alan Hardy
did a poll of a variety of different U zeal
flag posals from many different sources, and I incorporated some
of his results into this. This is just a synthesis
of many different you know, polls and judgments and opinions
(53:12):
that come of you. So you know, I've had had
to sort of synthesize these with my own sort of
personal judgment of you know, how to wait, like you know,
foreigner's opinions to local opinions and things like that. But
generally the one two of the top do come up
quite strongly all.
Speaker 1 (53:26):
The time, gotcha, Yeah, yeah, I guess. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (53:31):
Wanting to wanting to have the black incorporated, I think
that would kind of maybe push these silver fern diagonal
over the line for me.
Speaker 3 (53:39):
But yeah, that's one that's one reason why it is
one of the strongest designs because that's that's an example
of really applying that lesson of trying to appeal broadly
to everyone. If you don't know, this white silifern on
black is of what ted Cake or our second national back,
(54:01):
it's quite a popular and well known design around the
whole country. However, it is associated quite a lot with
sporting events, sporting teams. I was going to say a
lot of people, Yeah, well that's one example. A lot
of people say that's just a sporting flag. That's one
reason why they didn't want to consider it. Well, you
know for the actual referendum back at the time. So
(54:24):
what we've done for this design is we've added those
red and blue panels in a way you know that's
balanced and diagonal in alliance with the front. So that
way you're including the red, white and black of the
Maladi culture as well as the red, white and blue
from Union Jack, and that reprevents both both of the
(54:45):
main founding cultures of the nation that signed the Treaty
of White Honey, which is the foundational document of our.
Speaker 1 (54:54):
Nation, different versions of it. They both signed it.
Speaker 3 (54:56):
Yeah, yeah, that's true. Yeah, there's there's some country want
to about how well those two versions line up, but yeah,
not too well.
Speaker 4 (55:05):
But point take in regardless. Yeah yeah, yeah, no, I
do like that that synthesis of of the both there.
Speaker 1 (55:12):
But all right, yeah, I.
Speaker 3 (55:14):
Will yeah, I will make comment about the silar Ferm diagonal,
which is that the pin really objects to the idea
of adding these extra colors to appeal not to add
that appeal to you know, history and culture, because he
tried to, well, it's got to be simple, just keep
(55:35):
it white on black. That's a very effective design by itself.
I'm telling you, as someone who's actually from the country,
you know, the purely black and white silver fern design,
that that's a real actful battle. If you want people
to accept that, you do have to include other elements
from history and culture in order for people to feel like, yeah,
(55:56):
this is not just an all black slobilcase, not just
sporting black. This is something that can truly represent the country.
And I think you're still hit on that. When you
were you're thinking about designs that have some reference to
the Tino, like some elements of the colors even if
it didn't you know, the whole thing in that. Yeah,
(56:16):
I think that's just something that maybe kid doesn't really get.
He's he's speaking as an American, and he's speaking as
someone who knows a lot about the design. But I'm
talking about public residence, and I think so for Diagon
it is how you would get that result that a
pure as you will turn on black, I would get
some support that I don't think that would get over
(56:36):
the finish.
Speaker 4 (56:36):
Line, right, yeah, yeah, it's interesting, like we all we
all bring what we can to the table, and a
lot of times what we can is just our own
personal experience. So yeah, I mean, you know, I again
like part of the reason that, like, like just based
on the last five minutes here, part of the reason
I gravitated towards those ones with the stripes, or because
(56:57):
part of my personal experience has informed like, hey, isn't
it nice when a flag has a nice kind of
stripe down the side there, even if it's on the hoist,
Like yeah, yeah, it is. Uh, it takes all kinds,
as they say.
Speaker 3 (57:10):
So I gad stripe with the blue fields of.
Speaker 4 (57:15):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, all right, Well dude, that was fascinating.
I'm I'm so glad we finally got to like hang
out and meet up a chat about all this, like
after the embargoes and everything. I mean, we could have
chatted about some of this a while ago, but I
really wanted to get in on a lot of that
Minnesota stuff and I think the viewers and listeners are
(57:35):
going in go nuts over that. So thank you so
much for finding the time to sit down with us
for so long today and everything.
Speaker 1 (57:45):
Really sincerely appreciate that. So we'll go ahead and wrap up. Brian,
where can people find your work? Follow your work? Uh,
just see what you got going on in general?
Speaker 3 (57:59):
Well, and some of the slides that I've shared, I've
put a QR code on that so you can scan
that with your plot and see a bit more. My
website is Brian sham nineteen dot com and that has
some of my leg designs for Alto and New Zealand
and you know, some other tips so other places like Australia.
(58:20):
If you're interested in the Minnesota flag process, it can
come to and that's where me and the rest of
the design team will feature and we will have a
presentation the full presentation showing the full design process there.
Speaker 4 (58:36):
Yeah, I would love for as many people as possible
to come to nab A fifty eight. I will be there,
as Brian mentioned, he will be there, Andrew Precker will
be there, the designer of the you know what ended
up being the Minnesota state flag.
Speaker 1 (58:49):
Lots of cool people. Yeah, yeah, dude, that's awesome.
Speaker 4 (58:53):
I will have as Brian mentioned, all of his slides,
including that QR code. I'll probably just put the link
itself in the show notes as well so you can
get to that stuff as easily as possible, and I
highly recommend that you do, because this is really fascinating
stuff and really cool kind of preview of some NAVA
fifty eight stuff as well. So as far as that goes,
(59:16):
well as far as following the show goes, you can
find all of our links over at linktree dot com.
Slash flagged four content all spelled out anywhere with an
AT symbol. We are at flagged four content for like
the number. As I mentioned several times, Join the discord.
The discord is where we have a lot of kind
of just fun, casual conversations between a lot of us.
(59:40):
It's where a couple of the questions on today's show
came from follow us on Instagram. That's where a lot
more came from. And I think that's pretty much it, uh, Brian,
I always plan to have a way to close the
show out, but I I always kind of you know,
lose my notes or end up bump bling it somehow.
(01:00:01):
So I'm just gonna throw to you, is there any
kind of a closing line or any any good way
that you can walk us out of here today?
Speaker 3 (01:00:10):
I think it's just time to flag off.
Speaker 4 (01:00:13):
It is time to flag off. And with that, Brian
and I will catch y'all on the fly side chat later.
Speaker 1 (01:00:21):
Take care of y'all. All right, awesome, we got it.
Speaker 4 (01:00:37):
Flag for Content is proud to be sponsored by Flags
for Good. Go to flagsfo Good dot com for more information.
We've got and.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
If the imagine matters, will you might even get to
standards and what they represented to just take my voices
hand a little tunder standard. This logic podcast Cular Factook counts.
Speaker 3 (00:22):
That wood count.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
What's up Beck's Heads?
Speaker 4 (00:26):
And Welcome to episode sixty one, Part two of Flagged
for Content. It's the only podcast where the host got
married a couple of weekends ago and had to take
some time to do a bunch of other stuff that
wasn't editing.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
His podcast anyway.
Speaker 4 (00:44):
All that to say, I do apologize for this one
being way later than I said it was going to be.
I think I said it would be the same week
and that was clearly wrong.
Speaker 3 (00:55):
Uh.
Speaker 4 (00:56):
Speaking of things that are wrong, it would be wrong
for you to not order flags from Flags for Good,
which is our show's sponsor. You can find all sorts
of political flags there, regardless of what way the election
goes today. I'm sure they will have some good ones
(01:17):
either way. Anyway, use code flagged for content when you
check out it is flagged for like the number digit
for whatever content, and yeah, you'll get a suite I
think ten percent off and kick a little bit to
the show as well. Speaking of the election. I am
(01:37):
releasing this on election Day hopefully, and if you haven't
already done so, if you are an American, please get
out and vote. Please go out and vote the correct way.
I think you know what it is. I don't think
I have to say it, but anyway, I will be
working the election today, so you know, thoughts and pre
(02:00):
and all that good stuff. The only notes that I
had to go into before this one is that this
was taped a little bit before Nava fifty eight. There's
a bit near the end where we say, hey, I
hope everyone comes to Nava fifty eight. So I hope
you came to Nava fifty eight. If not, please come
(02:20):
to fifty nine. It's in Seattle. I have the flag
for that, thanks to a DA Ball to leave, and
I will show that one soon in an upcoming video. Okay,
I did already say sorry for the delay. I had
a wedding, I got married, and I wanted to shout
out the folks that came. Curtis Tarver, who's been on
the show a couple of times, Tara Stark, who's been
(02:42):
on the show and did design the Keystone flag, and
Michael Green, who has again been on the show. You're
seeing a theme here and is the proud owner of
Flags for Good. Thank you guys so much. It was
an honor having all of you there. That aside, let's
see to do. Yeah, join the discord in the Patreon.
(03:03):
I say that every week or well every I guess
nine weeks whenever this show comes out.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
But do join the discord.
Speaker 4 (03:10):
It is where we have a lot of really good conversations,
and as I mentioned near the end of this episode,
it's where a lot of the questions come from as well.
So and the Patreon just always has some good bonus content,
so you know, worth checking out. There's like a two
dollars level if you want to do that. And yeah,
I think the last note I had was one of
(03:30):
the bears repeating, which is happy in quotes election day.
Let's hope it's not the last one we ever have.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
All that aside, I had.
Speaker 4 (03:39):
A great continuation of a conversation with Brian Sham, who
is a joy to talk to and who knows his
way around a flag and a flag committee as well.
This episode mostly focused on his six deal breakers of
bad flag design. We put it up against the good
(04:01):
Flag Bad Flag rubric. A few other considerations as well. Yeah,
it's mostly about that, but there's a little bit of
other stuff thrown in here as well. So I think
you guys are going to really enjoy this one. And again,
please vote, Please vote.
Speaker 3 (04:21):
Ah.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
Here we go, all.
Speaker 4 (04:24):
Right, and we are back Part three more with Brian
cham And. Yeah, that was a fascinating walk through the
Minnesota Flag Commission, like the ins and outs of all that,
what it's like to be on one, which you know,
I hope to be on one, even like half that
size someday. And as mentioned, we do have some listener
(04:44):
and viewer questions. We got to a couple of them,
but I'm just gonna walk us through. I think there's
three that we haven't gotten to, and I'm gonna start
with this one.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
This is from Wallaby, Oh four.
Speaker 4 (04:59):
This is Evan Stewart, who was in our discord and
has been a past guest on the show. He says,
if you can ask him why the north Star flag
was cut so early? I get that maybe a sensitive topic,
so it's fair if it's unmentioned. So he tell me
if you want me to cut this, but do you
know why it was cut so early?
Speaker 1 (05:19):
Any insight on that?
Speaker 3 (05:21):
Well, by the time we came in without full collaboration
as advisors, six finals had already been chosen, and that
had been done by individual voting members of the commission. Okay,
so there wasn't any you know, central reason why that
flag wasn't chosen for the finals. It would have just
(05:44):
been up to the individual choices of those voting members.
And by the time yeah, by the time we were
involved more deeply, that decision had already been made, had
already been publicized, so they weren't really in a position
to revive that selection.
Speaker 4 (06:00):
Okay, yeah, fair and simple. I'm trying to think of
the order on these last two. Let's go with let's
let's let's start with.
Speaker 3 (06:14):
J. G.
Speaker 4 (06:15):
Davis seventy eight, who I gather is not the biggest
fan of the flag. But they say, with so many
decent designs to choose from, what were they thinking?
Speaker 3 (06:25):
Why?
Speaker 1 (06:26):
Why?
Speaker 4 (06:26):
So basically just somebody who doesn't love the final design?
What do you say to, you know, to the haters?
Speaker 3 (06:34):
Perhaps, well, uh, I will share something on my screen
for the haters.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
Okay, is it just going to be a giant middle
finger graphic?
Speaker 3 (06:51):
I'll be a bit more that. Ah, Okay, the results
of the two survey that we did for New American
Familiar rated flags. As you can see, uh, you know,
we all rated them, our members all rated them on
(07:12):
average eighth grade. You can see they're very complicated. They've
got logos and text everywhere.
Speaker 4 (07:16):
I still want that Springfield Township one. I'm not gonna lie,
I still want that one.
Speaker 3 (07:22):
It's always very cartoony, isn't it.
Speaker 4 (07:24):
Uh huh Michael Green and I have plans to go
there and get one, uh someday, someday anyway.
Speaker 3 (07:34):
Interesting, So now right, well, yeah, look, I can't make you,
you know, like the final flag if that's start what
you genuinely enjoy. However, the reason why I'm showing you
(07:55):
the city flags is to I just need to remind
you that when you have flag commissions, and they often
made from people made up of members who are not fixologists,
and if fixologists are not involved, then they often end
up with selection like one of these.
Speaker 4 (08:16):
Yes, and even I mean kind of to that point,
sorry about end, but kind of to that point that
one that you had before as a one that could
have potentially won that one with a little green landscape, yeah,
I mean cautionary tail type stuff.
Speaker 3 (08:32):
Exactly. I brought that up, Yeah, just to show like
the impact of our unvolved and even if you're one
hundred percent aligned with you know, the way the process
went or the way the final flag was chosen, at
least I hope we can agree that we saved it
and then we saved Minnesota for having something like this
(08:53):
or something like that cautionary tale that I showed with
all the ways on it. So that is what I
will try to try to show to any of the
It's at least a great not to have something.
Speaker 4 (09:02):
Like this, absolutely all right, Yeah, and uh, you know,
and all flags are gonna have haters, you know. I
guess like if you live in a municipality or somewhere
where you have a bad.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
Flag, get out and change it. That's a that's all
we can say.
Speaker 4 (09:16):
And then all right, So I think the final flag
or final flag final question on that topic is from
Grant dot duh dot Coda.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
That is Coda.
Speaker 4 (09:27):
They're a big fan, big listener. I met them working
at a.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
Map store in Seattle.
Speaker 4 (09:34):
I'm not sure if they want me to say or not,
but yeah, they work at a very cool map store
in Seattle. Anyway, I'll stop gushing, but they asked, what
is the hardest part of being in a design committee.
Speaker 3 (09:50):
Well, Coon is actually one of the members of the
never fifty nine like design committee. That right, Yes, I
think we have that we have a bit of experience there. Yeah,
I think that that went along very smoothly because you know,
we're both exil or just we had a very good
sense of what would make a good flag. When it
came to the more more substantial a wider arranging commission,
(10:15):
I think being part of the design team itself, that
that went quite clearly as well. I think the main
challenge was when we reached out back to to the
wider commission. There there's often very little consensus and it
(10:35):
can be very hard to get everyone on the same
page or come to a decision about specific flags, get
them all aligned on the same process. And that's that's
the sort of thing where the head of the commission
(10:55):
was really instrumental and you know, in encouraging everyone to
get aligned, telling them, you know how important it was
to get something for the deadline, encouraging people to yeah,
come come to decisions together, even if it wasn't you know,
what they wanted. That was That's the only way that
(11:20):
you can get you know, a real povision on a
really great tha like otherwise you just go round and
round in circles, which is honestly, to be honest, you
know that that there's something that, yeah, that can happen
in the in these sort of commissions. At some point
the disagreements need to come together and become something productive
for sure.
Speaker 4 (11:41):
And given that you are, I mean, I can't say where,
but and I've hinted at it a million times this
episode already, but like, I am going to be part
of a design committee that you're heading. Again, we won't
mention specifics, but like, uh, do you find so you
have headed design committe and you've been a.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
Part of them.
Speaker 4 (12:02):
I'm just curious, And this may be a dumb question,
but I know I've variously liked being in charge and
liked being not in charge with certain jobs. Do you
have a preference as far as leading a committee versus
being on one?
Speaker 3 (12:16):
Well, when it comes to the solology, I'm always happy
to be in both positions. Yeah, I think being the
commission has a lot of advantages that I can bring
everyone on the same page and get the wall lined
(12:37):
in the discussion to get sure. It's what I do
in the flag design form all the.
Speaker 1 (12:41):
Time, right right, I do that.
Speaker 3 (12:43):
I discuss it while I'm working on designs in real time.
It's really good to get to, you know, encourage everyone
to contribute to their ideas and try out different things feedback.
I do enjoyed that part of it as well.
Speaker 4 (12:56):
Absolutely, all right, cool, Well, I think we can move
on from Minnesota with this last little segment that we've
got here. I want to go into I think what
most people know you for the most other outside of
the Minnesota stuff, and that is your six deal breakers
of bad flag design. Uh So I will go ahead
(13:17):
and just throw it to you because you can explain
them better than I can. But take us on a
little bit of walk okay, ye, yeah, you've got the
you've got them pulled up here. Yeah, take us on
like kind of a short little walk through what these
are and and how you came up with.
Speaker 3 (13:31):
Well, so the six deal breaker is of bad flag design,
our list of six factors that can make or break
a blank design and the opinion. So this is based
on analysis of my home countries as flag Referrendum from
twenty fifteen twenty sixteen. The public had a lot of
(13:53):
commentary on the design, and I and another bixilogist collected
a lot of these and found I identified the common
themes behind why the public were redicting a lot of
the fire is design and these are the sexts that
we came up with and we we live. I presented
this during a previous NEVER conference as a way of
(14:17):
giving them lessons on, you know, future flag design efforts
so that they don't fall into these traps. It's very
good design.
Speaker 1 (14:30):
Yeah, you all should go watching you have access to it.
Speaker 3 (14:35):
So the first one is looks like a logo, not
a flag. This is something that I've seen a lot
in American city flag designs as well. Oh yeah, looks
like they're not a fact that one's kind of similar,
but it's more about the symbolism being something very informal.
I can tell you that in Minnesota's like Design comm
(15:00):
we did have some that were quite based on like
specific sports team symbolism and we were where that's going
to end up looking at it.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
For a certain dogs, certain Golden Retrievers.
Speaker 3 (15:11):
That as well. Yeah, right, And the design on the
top right is the final alternative plank that we had
in the referendum, and that that illustrates those first two points.
Look like a logo and look like souvenir people, Yeah,
(15:31):
people did not feel like it was a very flaglike
and in this composition m The next point is mystery symbolism.
So that's when the design is too abstract that no
one can really understand what it is, what it means,
or how it relates to the pakes that they're in.
So the design and the bottom left is another one
(15:51):
of the finalists that that fell into that track. It's
something that people really resonated with, but only once they
had read full explanation, or it looks as a complete
mystery you can understand how it related to the country
at all. Yes, the next point is designing for yourself,
(16:12):
so you know, every person has their own preferences on
what sort of symbols or sort of colors, what a
design theme should be on a flag their place, and
if you link too strongly into that, then you will
limit public resonance of that design because it's not going
to appeal to people who want other other things in
(16:33):
the design. I'm not suggesting you put in you know
everything to feel to everyone. Try try to try to
just try to have a bit of sympathy. I just
think in terms, think about the fact that you're designing
for the whole population, You're not designing purely for yourself.
The next one is too radical. This is when the
(16:57):
play design is a way too different from anything. Symbolism
that republicacy previously familiarity is something that is quite us
quite important for them to accept a new flag design.
And the last one is borring for the works. I
(17:19):
know this is one that hit really a bit so. Yeah,
I said, simplicity is always good in a flag, and
whenever I go through these, you know, flag redesign processes,
it is important. You know, usually the submissions are too
complic that they need to simplify them. But there is
a point where they've become so boring that no one
(17:44):
really gets excited by it. As you mentioned with the
finalists with the waves, that's trying to make you excited,
like you know, flags are something that you should feel
proud of. You should feel like you know you're excited
to fly it. There should be I shape, you have
something that's too basic, then you're not going to get that.
(18:07):
I don't have an example. Yeah, but if you look
on the top left, that's our current flag. And one
proposal was just to remove the union jack and just
leave the sun across on an empty blue field. And
that's something that's simply too barring. Yeah, just empty and land.
Speaker 4 (18:24):
Yeah it'll it'll again be in the show notes. But
if if viewers and listeners want to, yeah, just even
just google the six deal Breakers a bad flag design
that will bring up i mean one year page where
it's hosted, and yeah, you can go through like the
whole go through all of it. And yeah, I went
through as a as a reread earlier today and I
had somehow forgotten about that one. I had forced it
(18:46):
out of my mind. But then yeah, once I got
to that sixth one and saw it without the union jack,
I was like, God, I forgot how boring that is.
I mean, I don't love it with the union jack.
That's you know, my preference. I don't love flags with
the you know, the union up top there, but it's
worse without it.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
Like in that case anyway.
Speaker 3 (19:07):
It's too empty for sure, gloring.
Speaker 4 (19:22):
So I was gonna before we get like any further
into that, because like, obviously there is a little bit
more to get into with the deal breakers, but just
to kind of bridge the segments, because one of the
questions does this, uh Max from Sweden, who has been
a previous guest, as a lot of these folks have,
but he asked, uh. He said, you could ask Brian
(19:43):
if he thinks the whole Minnesota process confirmed his deal
breakers or if he learned something new, uh, And that is,
if he thinks that it's applicable on flag redesigns outside
of New Zealand, because that's where most of your examples
come from. So I was curious, and obviously he was
curious to know, uh, kind of how you apply that to.
Speaker 1 (20:03):
Minnesota, or if it changed your thinking on it or
any of that.
Speaker 3 (20:07):
I think that process was a real test of this list,
because I wasn't even quite sure how well it would apply.
But I think that based on the public reception that
I saw and even the commissions just owned discussions, these
points really did come up again quite strongly. Looks like
(20:32):
a logo, looks like a souvenir. This is something that
came up during the finalists, but a should you know
if I showed you the one that looks like a
fool logo? You know some people felt the same way,
and they made that same some comment that looks you know,
like a logo looks through trendy. It's not like a
flag mystery simple mystery symbolism wasn't really much of effective
(20:54):
because I think the commission only chose things that they
could understand. Is related to minutes, Okay, yeah, designing for yourself, Uh,
that one not so much. I feel like the designs
from Minnesota all sort of centered on the same design thing,
which is sort of a north star and some sort
(21:15):
of watery representation, you know, rivers and color blue and
that sort of thing. I feel like maybe they just
have a stronger you know, visual identity, and there aren't
that many options to choose from to us. So the
next one two radical.
Speaker 2 (21:37):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (21:38):
Again, there may have been some designs that were you know,
way too different to be recognizable that even then, commission
only chose things that they could understand sort of the
first gland. They have a lot to go through, so
they only chose things that have, you know, the north
star some sort of blue and that's something that those
(21:58):
both things that are white recognizable quite familiar to the public.
So they got around that last one. It's boring that
it works.
Speaker 1 (22:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (22:09):
Funnily enough, the final design that we actually chose that
actually drew some of that exact point. Some people will say, well,
saying well, look at the truth pland that's why some
preferred versions with stripes on them, is that that's just
a case where we had to make a judgment call
(22:31):
about you know, how far it's too far in terms
of simplification. We felt that with the unique shape of
Minnesota on there, as well as the too lose which
is a very distinct part of any US state flag,
(22:53):
having you know, covering the entire canvas, we felt that
made it uh, you know, interesting enough that you can
still that you would still be how to fly, it
would still be eye catching. And as you can see,
as I said, showing you on the on the one
of the previous slides, yeah you see it even on
(23:16):
a tiny pin like on someone jacket, and even that
gobble little riled up. So I think did George's job there,
even though it was quite simple. So I think a
lot of what I saw in Minnesota, some of these points,
it was just some more than others because of you know,
the different symbolism and the different circumstances.
Speaker 4 (23:36):
There Okay, yeah, no, shoot asked an answer. That's that's perfect. Yeah,
that that makes sense. I was wondering my the one
sticking point I was thinking that that you might have
that that we might have was number six. There the
boring but it works thing, just because that's been like
if I had a criticism, that would be it.
Speaker 1 (23:59):
Uh all right, yeah, so worth moving on.
Speaker 4 (24:01):
We have taught on our show about your six deal
Breakers before. I don't think it's an episode that I
like linked you to. It was only about three episodes
ago that said I've taken like kind of a long
summer hiatus here, so it was also about two months
ago at this point. There are people that take good flag,
(24:23):
bad flag as gospel. There are people that take yours
as gospel. There are people that try and rectify both.
People like to draw a lot from both, and I'm
curious to know where you think the kind of overlap is,
where they work together where they may not.
Speaker 3 (24:41):
Yeah, well, I think that the six deal break is
a bad flag design really compliments the principles from good Flag,
Bad Flag. I think that people sort of misunderstood some
of my work. I mean, to be honest, I think
even Tid misunderstands some of this. He thinks that these
are trying to almost have replace those original we talked
(25:02):
a little, or he thinks that they're sort of in conflict.
I don't think about it that way.
Speaker 4 (25:06):
We did mention wanting to fight you and said something
about meeting out back of now fifty eight.
Speaker 3 (25:12):
But yeah, oh boy, I have to keep that in mind.
Thanks for wanting me. I'll be very good, noah.
Speaker 1 (25:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (25:20):
So the way I see it is that an effective
flag has four aims. It should be remembered, recognized, reproduced,
and resonate for oursive flag divide. Okay, right, it's principles
good flag, bad flag. It deals with those first reacts.
If you make a flag that centrale, no texts, or
(25:41):
sealed a few colors, very distinctive, you know, from a
visual point of view, then it's very easy to remember,
I recognize and reproduce visually at a distance or hanging
a waving Yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (25:56):
What I come up with is how you deal with
that fourth principle, how you resonate the public. And I
think that there is no tug of war between what
kd K has come up with and what I've come
up with I've put a little diagram at the bott
to illustrate my thoughts. Here, the bin diagram on the
left is good flag, bad flag, on the right of
(26:18):
six steel breakers. Yeah, there will be flag designs that
satisfied the good flag bad flag, but they don't appeal
to the public. That's what we had in New Zealand.
That would be sort of on the left side of
that bin diagram. And there are also flags that you know,
people in the public might be enthusiastic about that they
(26:39):
are not affected designs that would be on the right
rong side of that bin diagram. You know, some of
those city flags, some of those really or whole city flags,
some of the lower ranking USA flags still like those.
I'm not suggesting that you should, you know, take the
six steel breakers you know, at face value, and accept
(27:02):
publicly ah publicly accepted flags at the detriment of good
flag backplate. What I suggest is that intersection in the
middle of the diagram where you are satisfying both the
principles of effective design and public satisfaction and find flag
and should find flags that work together to satisfy both
(27:26):
of those so that it can be remembered, recognized, produced,
and resonate, they compliment each other. There is no there
should be no conflict. And as you which this is
what I try to recommend, as you clarify, Yeah, as
you see, as we advise to flag design commissions, this
(27:51):
is part of how you select flight and how you
how you should revise flights to end up, it's as
you can in that ideal zone where you have and
have a design that is as effective as possible on
a visual level, but also satisfies public on their level
as well. So I don't see it as any conflict.
(28:15):
And I think, yeah, even Ted sort of misunderstands my
aim with this, thinks that I'm sort of trying to
override or being conflict with a good flag bad play.
I don't. I don't. I don't see it that way. Off,
There are only two parts where I think that it
could be potentially conflict. And I think it's interesting because
(28:37):
in his advice for uh, you know, state city flag redesigns,
it's actually updated as presentation.
Speaker 1 (28:47):
You're doing too.
Speaker 3 (28:49):
Directly free, empty and refute some of the points I've
made and six deal breakers, which I honestly see is
quite an honor because it means like he's he has
been botherowed by what I said so much, actually, but
it's interesting the way he's interpreted it, because he's he's founded. Yeah,
he agrees with the six deal breakers on the level
(29:10):
that yes, this is what the public thinks. Then they
evaluate whether they like a flag or not. But he
sees that almost as a cautionary tale, something that he's
got to warn them against, whereas I'm seeing it as Okay,
you've got to actually take the public seriously and incorporate
that feedback and try to make designs.
Speaker 1 (29:26):
That written so it seems reasonable.
Speaker 3 (29:29):
Typically advised these commissions and councils not to aim for
instant recognition. He says. Yeah, he tries to say that,
you know a lot of people will not understand the
design at first glance, but you shouldn't aim for that.
You can have something that's more abstract from them that
(29:51):
you need to explain. As you make it official and
roll it up, people will get used to it, people
will understand what it means. And he sort of ested
that if you do make if you do aim for
instant reasoners, then you end up with very generic flags
that sort of are very understandable to you know, almost
(30:13):
the lowest common denominator, someone who has no understanding of
the symbolism and can only understand what they see at first, guys.
And that's why you you end up with a lot
of flags that you end up looking re generic, look
like landscape postcards, because they sort of feel like they
have to go with something that can be understood immediately.
Speaker 1 (30:35):
Yeah, okay, we have mountains, we have a beach. Yeah yeah, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (30:42):
I can understand why you would want to, you know,
advise them away from the kind of outcome because that
is you know, quite generic and a lot of places
of mountains and beaches and yeah, you know, you end
up looking all looking the same because you know, if
you're only restricting yourself to design elements that will understand immediately,
then it looks the same. I can understand way feel
(31:04):
that way. I do feel like that applying the six
steel Breakers is a little bit different for a city
into a country. So my analysis was based on a
country where there is an established set of national civilism,
national colors. There's already a lot of history and culture.
(31:25):
If you are designing a flag for a city, then
you may not have a lot of that pre existing
visual material that people can't understand resonate with at first clans,
so I can understand, and I will admit that, you know,
the lesson that I that I've been trying to advise about,
(31:47):
trying to you know, not making completely mysterious symbolism may
not apply as much to smaller places, small cities, and
to some degree you will have to come up with
something that you will have to explain and have to impose.
So I do think I can sort of promisee and
leap with them halfway there on that point, because I
don't want you know, I mean, there's a great flag,
(32:09):
but I don't want I don't want every flag to
look like this, and they are out of and a
lot of the new ones are starting to sort of
look very similar.
Speaker 1 (32:18):
Yeah, agreed.
Speaker 3 (32:20):
So yeah, I'll also note that even for smaller cities,
if you do have to, you know, impose some symbolism,
some meaning, uh, even if yeah, yeah, even if it's
not immediately understandable, it would be good if it could
at least give them a good first impression that leads
them in the right direction. Ah, you know, if it
(32:44):
is something, But I mean I'm not suggesting, you know,
you have to directly put in the mountains, directly put
in the feature something. But if they can give them
that general feeling, that general vibe where they feel, oh,
this feels like maybe you know, a tropical kind of
place or maybe a place that could be in Texas,
and you put them in the right direction.
Speaker 4 (33:06):
You can accomplish that in different well, you can accomplish
that with color palettes and things that aren't just like
a two D thing of mountains like you can exactly.
There's a lot of different ways to accomplish that.
Speaker 1 (33:17):
Yeah, yeah, I hear you.
Speaker 3 (33:19):
Yeah, so I understand tense advice. I would half agree
with it, but I would still advocate even if you
can't make everything instantly understandable and instantly resonant, you know,
at least make at least give them a good impression
that leads them in the right direction so that they
do feel like they can connete with it. Yeah. And
(33:51):
the second yeah, again, same question, how to reconcile simplicity
with not being bland. I think Ted sort of misunder
stands that point as me advocating for, you know, ignoring
the first part of good flag bad like ignoring the
part where it's is keep it simple and trying to
keep it more. I think some people have also latched
(34:13):
on onto my advice. Yeah, some people who really enjoy
the more complicated designs complicated at a point where it
doesn't even work as a design, and they think I'm
trying to advocate for that.
Speaker 4 (34:27):
What.
Speaker 3 (34:28):
The way that I I reconcile this, because I do
think simpler designs are better, is that there are lots
of iconic flags that are very bland, very boring. For example,
the flags of France literally playing tricolors. They're quite famous.
And the reason why you can, you know, they sort
(34:50):
of get away with being so simple, is because they
have a lot of historical president They've been around for
hundreds of years. And these are three Yeah, well, no
kind of. But if you're designing a new flag, you're
doing it from scratch, and you will need publicity. You'll
need people to get excited about the new drag as
it's being designed, as it's being rolled out. So you
(35:12):
can't be as simple as like the French flag or
the Italian flag. Color to something a little more interstate,
not complicated, but a little more interesting. And I have
these two examples to demonstrate how you can be simple
but not too simple.
Speaker 1 (35:29):
Yeah, this is the perfect example.
Speaker 4 (35:31):
When I came across this slide, I was like, oh
my god, I never thought of it in this way,
and I couldn't have couldn't have said it better.
Speaker 3 (35:37):
Yeah. Yeah. The national flag of Indonesia versus Switzerland, both
of them, you know, it's a theory as simple as
each other. Both got two colors, two fabric panels, you know,
one red, one white. Indonesian flag is a plan by color.
It's boring, you know. People don't get excited about it.
Speaker 1 (35:58):
It gets confused with poland Monaco.
Speaker 3 (36:00):
And confused with a few others.
Speaker 1 (36:03):
Put something good for if the you know, if the
elements are yeah.
Speaker 3 (36:07):
Yeah, it's unidentifiable. It gets blown upside down a lot.
No one knows which way up it's supposed to go. Generally,
just you're too bland and too boring.
Speaker 1 (36:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (36:19):
Whereas Switzerland, on the other hand, that's still a simple design,
but that doesn't fall into the trap of being too boring.
It's still very iconic. Move well. It works in all
these different contexts. That's why I say it's so it's underrated.
On a Swiss army, I works on works on obl
(36:40):
it's a very striking design. So I think that you
can have something that is simple, that that's good flag,
bad flag, while also not falling into that trap of
being too bland. I think that's a sort of balancing
act that I was we were trying to do with
the new flag of Minnesota, something that is simple worked
(37:00):
as a flag, but also closer to you know, the
Splitzerland example than the Indonesia example.
Speaker 1 (37:08):
Yes, for obvious reasons.
Speaker 3 (37:10):
Yeah, I mean, I know people criticize those who revolved
with the final design because we rooted the stripes and
made it very simple, and well, we may have made
it too simple, but I would just like to say,
if that we were, you know, we were committed to
going that overboard on publicity, we could have even removed
the star and just left it as the shape of Minnesota. Right,
(37:34):
Why we didn't go that far?
Speaker 1 (37:36):
Yeah, if you want to trust me, yeah, we don't.
Speaker 3 (37:39):
We don't advocate. I don't advocate for that level of bladness.
Trust me. I did use We did use a best
judgment to keep it within that right balance.
Speaker 1 (37:51):
Great, Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 4 (37:52):
Do you want to go into do you want to
go into the designs anymore? Or are we are we
better saving that for another time?
Speaker 1 (38:01):
These last.
Speaker 3 (38:03):
Or oh right, forgot about this one. Yeah, these are
just other questions that people have had about the sixt
deal breakers. Yeah, when does the when does the flag
walk like a logo? One of the one of the
lessons was, yeah, don't make the flag to logo like
I just got some examples. Yeah, it is a bit
(38:24):
subjective a lot with alternative flag. It is quite logo
like in its composition. I mean I I sort of
it's a website fan it, yes, composed, But at the
same time, it's not like one of the US city
flags that are literally used to logo on a bit
(38:44):
cheek but colfax I always sort of you know waderline
example that. Yeah, it's subjective. I think you just need
to compare it, you know, side by side with more
conventional flag and likes that look obviously like bogos and
just ask yourself, we're it falls on that scale? It
(39:06):
close to one end or the other. Yeah. Another question is, yeah,
do the populations preferences change. So here's an example that
I criticized in six Steal Breakers, saying, you know, yeah,
this was what I.
Speaker 4 (39:19):
Had not I've not seen outside of the context of
reading the Six deal Breakers, and maybe reason I don't know.
Speaker 3 (39:26):
This was to illustrate a mystery symbolism. So the stars
in this particular design, which is a constellation that has
significant to the indigenous smelting population. However, at the time
that that the competition happened, it was this was very obscure,
(39:48):
like even a lot of people in New Zealand would
have had to look up what is this arrangement of stars?
What is not any Since then it is actually a
particular occasion has become a public holiday. So now the
constellation is a bit more well known. Oh okay, And
so people have asked me, like, you know, since then,
(40:09):
do you think that this may have a bit of
chance and do you think you're acting like a public
resonance or something that's facts flinging. In fact, the public
preferences can change over time. I think, uh, even with
this as a public holiday, I don't think this is
still like well lown enough or prominent enough to be like,
(40:32):
you know, the main national symbol. There are still other
symbols that have, you know, hundreds of years of public resonance,
like the silver fern or the key for example, so
this still wouldn't be the strongest designer. You know, I
do understand the point. You know, it's the same with
the silver fern. A lot of people say, you know,
(40:52):
it looks like a logo. Looks like yeah, but there
have been a lot of there's been a lot of
adoption of this non souvenir, non sporting context. On the
on the left hair is my passport, which has a
quite prominent silver fern on the side. And obviously no
(41:13):
one's going to accuse the passport of being, you know,
a sporting related item or a souvenir something cheesy or informal.
So I think that is something that can also change.
I'd also like to come into that streendshot that have
got down at the bottom. I just want to explain
what that is. So there's an Instagram video and it's
all about a man at his citizenship ceremony. So when
(41:38):
he walked on stage, he had a ship on that
had the Indian flag on it, and then as he
as he received his citizenship, he rips it off, rips
off his shirt on stage. Underneath it's this one with
New Zealand and a silver thorn, And I just thought
it was curious that he shows that the silver fern
as the symbol represent it, because if you think if
(41:59):
the on top as the Indian flag and underneath would
be the New Zealand flag, but actually shows them the
silver third. That's just an example. I know it's just
one person, but there's just an example. No, I mean
much more prominent.
Speaker 4 (42:13):
My brain would go to exactly the same place. I
think a lot of people listening would.
Speaker 3 (42:19):
Yeah, I've got I've got various other examples. They're made
in New Zealand, and there's a logo of uh the
New Zealand High Commission, which is our embassy in London.
Curiously enough, our embassy in London actually does not have
the New Zealand flag. It does have a silver fern
logo that is interesting. And lastly is the New Zealand
(42:42):
War Memorial, also in London. These are all my personal photos,
and that has a silver fern on the middle pillar.
There are actually several middle pillars, but the main one
for the Reets Memorial just below that one has a
silver fern.
Speaker 4 (43:01):
I wonder if the reason for that being well, no,
I don't, I mean it like it seems like the
flag is much more likely to change than the fern
being a symbol of New Zealand is would like that's
just not going to change. So it makes sense to
put something that's a little bit more long lasting on
(43:22):
a memorial stone like that. The High Commission like that
seems that's easier to change. You could scrape that off
and change it, but the actual like stone work on
something like that. Yeah, I could understand definitely putting the
fern on it instead of the flag. Probably not even
like so much looking forward to the future possible flag
(43:42):
change reasons. Just it's it's I guess it's more enduring
as a national symbol. I guess is is most of it.
I mean, I doubt like the Australia one has the
Australia flag.
Speaker 3 (43:51):
On it or may I think I don't think. I
found that one very close to the New Zealand one
Isian memorial and the one, as you'd expect, has made
the leaves is this World.
Speaker 1 (44:06):
War one or two.
Speaker 3 (44:08):
I think it's just everything, Okay.
Speaker 4 (44:10):
I didn't know if it was like because I figured
if it was an Zac then Australia'd be like right
near you.
Speaker 3 (44:15):
But I'm not sure where that one is actually Australian
or more well, I didn't see it in the area
when I visited, only in New Zealand and Canada.
Speaker 1 (44:25):
Yeah, I'm curious. I'll just have to go to London.
Speaker 3 (44:30):
Yeah, maybe you know when you're here.
Speaker 1 (44:32):
Will do. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (44:33):
I honestly, I've only been twice and the last time
was in like two thousand and six, so it's been
a minute.
Speaker 3 (44:40):
Wow, oh over you for another visit. Yeah, that was yeah.
The other quick we already answered how well did these supply?
You know, in the American context. I put Utah in
it because I actually did see some of the comments
look very similar. Yeah, a lot of people felt the a.
Speaker 1 (45:00):
Lot of discussion about two logo like on that one
for sure.
Speaker 3 (45:03):
Logo like there's a central element with the high on
the ring. With that it looks yeah, looks a bit
logo like I don't think I vote for I was
involved with Utah. I play design a bit, but not
not as strongly as Minnesota. Yeah. Well, I I feel
(45:24):
like I mean, in all these cases, you just have
to ask yourself, you know, do you feel like there
is an improvement on the previous cl on a bit chip?
And you know, well, once you think about it. In
that perspective, you stop really like, you know, snippicking all
these new designs so I can still appreciate.
Speaker 1 (45:40):
But yeah, in those cases it's a no brainer.
Speaker 3 (45:43):
Yes, yeah, And this is just the last part of
deal breakers presentations. So out of those six deal breakers
and sort of flip them around to tend them into
positives and why these are lessons for what you should
(46:05):
do in a flag design. And so from it looks
like a logo or looks like a souvenir, you come
up with that archive test. You know, would you believe
it if this design came out of an archive fifty
years ago? Mystery symbolism and too radical? Again, you can
ask like would the average person be able to recognize
(46:27):
or resonate with it instantly even if it weren't explained
to them. Of course that's a bit that kid, you know,
disagrees with. But I think for a country level you
already have established symbolism. I think that would work. And
the last part about designing for yourself, that's that's just
the part you ask yourself, are feeling to all the
different groups, not got to like include everything for different
(46:51):
just whether design is appeeling only just like one particular
population or whether it can really represent everyone, and then
you know, with those sort of lessons together, then you
get a design that's that's really going to resonate with everyone.
And these are the designs that we came up with
as a way of addressing the feedback on the New
(47:18):
Zealand finalists and coming up with our own flag designs
that we felt like would be even stronger designs both
from a you know, pixeological point of view, but also
from a public residence point of view, because it's incorporating
the principles of both of those of those things.
Speaker 4 (47:47):
M h.
Speaker 3 (47:52):
But before I explained this, I mean, what are your
first thoughts on these designs? Does anything stand out to you?
Speaker 1 (47:58):
Yeah? I well, actually so the I'm not gonna lie.
Speaker 4 (48:01):
The first thing that stood out to me on all
of these are the two middle lower ones being from Tennessee.
I'm like, why is the stripe on the hoyst side
instead of the fly side? It belongs on the fly side.
Speaker 1 (48:16):
That was the first thing I noticed. Secondly, Yeah, I
don't know, I think like as.
Speaker 4 (48:24):
Far as in order of prefer well, not in total order.
I'm not going to rank them all, but as far
as preference, I don't know. I think I kind of
like the Blue Sky one, the top right one that
you have the best, followed by the Southern Cross with
red stripe like bottom middle.
Speaker 1 (48:42):
I don't know.
Speaker 4 (48:43):
I expected to like the silver Fern more than the
Southern Cross, but looking at these here now I I
skew toward the Southern Cross ones more, although I will
say I think my third would be silver fern with
red stripe, which is the bottom well kind of the
central one.
Speaker 1 (49:00):
Yeah, I couldn't tell you. Like, so the blue Sky one,
I haven't looked at the symbology.
Speaker 4 (49:04):
The symbolism of it is that a volcano mountain, like
I don't know, the other than the Southern Cross.
Speaker 1 (49:09):
I can't guess the symbolism.
Speaker 3 (49:12):
Well. Personally, I think it's interesting that your choice, even
though you say that it's on the wrong side, you
still chose the ones that remind you of your home states.
So yeah, I think that maybe that's there. The Blue
Sky was inspired by actually quite a different selection of finalists,
(49:33):
like and they would recommend yeah, both volcanoes or mountains,
because we do have a very mountainous terrain and they
are quite significant in the multiculture, the southern crosses from
the current flag, and when put together, it forms something
a landscape that's quite intuitive, has instant residents, I know,
(50:01):
and a lot of those other chevron designs, Like it
wasn't really obvious what the hivron was representing, but by
combining the stars and the chivron and this arrangement, it
gets something that's really instant.
Speaker 4 (50:11):
Yeah, it's infinitely better than that one that's just like
the really chunky white chevron with the black, red blue.
Speaker 1 (50:20):
It's way better than that.
Speaker 3 (50:21):
To me, I called that one the red flag. That
was the one that was completely mysterious and didn't really resonate.
Speaker 1 (50:27):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (50:30):
This one we've incorporated part of the current flag. Still
got the red, white and blue and the current flag
and the Union jack as well as a lot of
red which very prestigious color and Miladi culture.
Speaker 4 (50:42):
Right right, I had a question, I guess just yeah,
just as a as a New Zealander. So I've got
it behind me here the Tino Rangatira Tonga I'm guessing here, Well,
here's I'm guessing there's no movement to make that the
national flag because it's probably so strongly associated with Maori
(51:06):
culture that they would rather keep it as a cultural flag.
Speaker 1 (51:08):
Is that like kind of what I'm is that accurate?
Speaker 3 (51:12):
That is accurate?
Speaker 1 (51:14):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (51:14):
I actually had the honor of interviewing last living designer
Linda Mudd and I'll be giving a presentation on that
eight and again we touched on this point specifically, which
is that during this flag competition and referenter process, the
government actually lew her to Wellington and asked her specifically
(51:39):
what she thought about taking that, you know, a tongue
of flag official national flag of New Zealand or dupping
a flag based on it, and she was very upset
at the idea because it was supposedly the flag that
she had designed for her people, for her culture and
(52:00):
becomes the national flag, then they don't have that anymore.
It's been taken away from them. Yeah, so that was
that's something that she was not okay with and she
did not agree with the idea.
Speaker 4 (52:09):
Yeah, that makes intuitive sense to me, but yeah, I
guess like that's the only thing. Like I really like
the blue sky, but I guess like if there were
a way to include black in it, which I don't
know if there is, so maybe that does push silver
fern diagonal a little bit ahead as you've got them.
Speaker 1 (52:26):
There is the most popular designs. Actually, what's that? Based
off of most popular designs? Have you done like poles
and stuff for this?
Speaker 3 (52:34):
I did some poles a while ago, back when you know,
the competition was going on. Sure, some some of those
were just generally among pixel just some of them were
among the Lightning family friends.
Speaker 1 (52:48):
Yeah, it's just curious.
Speaker 3 (52:50):
Yeah, but I mean sort of have to like some
of these are actually done recently. This year, Alan Hardy
did a poll of a variety of different U zeal
flag posals from many different sources, and I incorporated some
of his results into this. This is just a synthesis
of many different you know, polls and judgments and opinions
(53:12):
that come of you. So you know, I've had had
to sort of synthesize these with my own sort of
personal judgment of you know, how to wait, like you know,
foreigner's opinions to local opinions and things like that. But
generally the one two of the top do come up
quite strongly all.
Speaker 1 (53:26):
The time, gotcha, Yeah, yeah, I guess. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (53:31):
Wanting to wanting to have the black incorporated, I think
that would kind of maybe push these silver fern diagonal
over the line for me.
Speaker 3 (53:39):
But yeah, that's one that's one reason why it is
one of the strongest designs because that's that's an example
of really applying that lesson of trying to appeal broadly
to everyone. If you don't know, this white silifern on
black is of what ted Cake or our second national back,
(54:01):
it's quite a popular and well known design around the
whole country. However, it is associated quite a lot with
sporting events, sporting teams. I was going to say a
lot of people, Yeah, well that's one example. A lot
of people say that's just a sporting flag. That's one
reason why they didn't want to consider it. Well, you
know for the actual referendum back at the time. So
(54:24):
what we've done for this design is we've added those
red and blue panels in a way you know that's
balanced and diagonal in alliance with the front. So that
way you're including the red, white and black of the
Maladi culture as well as the red, white and blue
from Union Jack, and that reprevents both both of the
(54:45):
main founding cultures of the nation that signed the Treaty
of White Honey, which is the foundational document of our.
Speaker 1 (54:54):
Nation, different versions of it. They both signed it.
Speaker 3 (54:56):
Yeah, yeah, that's true. Yeah, there's there's some country want
to about how well those two versions line up, but yeah,
not too well.
Speaker 4 (55:05):
But point take in regardless. Yeah yeah, yeah, no, I
do like that that synthesis of of the both there.
Speaker 1 (55:12):
But all right, yeah, I.
Speaker 3 (55:14):
Will yeah, I will make comment about the silar Ferm diagonal,
which is that the pin really objects to the idea
of adding these extra colors to appeal not to add
that appeal to you know, history and culture, because he
tried to, well, it's got to be simple, just keep
(55:35):
it white on black. That's a very effective design by itself.
I'm telling you, as someone who's actually from the country,
you know, the purely black and white silver fern design,
that that's a real actful battle. If you want people
to accept that, you do have to include other elements
from history and culture in order for people to feel like, yeah,
(55:56):
this is not just an all black slobilcase, not just
sporting black. This is something that can truly represent the country.
And I think you're still hit on that. When you
were you're thinking about designs that have some reference to
the Tino, like some elements of the colors even if
it didn't you know, the whole thing in that. Yeah,
(56:16):
I think that's just something that maybe kid doesn't really get.
He's he's speaking as an American, and he's speaking as
someone who knows a lot about the design. But I'm
talking about public residence, and I think so for Diagon
it is how you would get that result that a
pure as you will turn on black, I would get
some support that I don't think that would get over
(56:36):
the finish.
Speaker 4 (56:36):
Line, right, yeah, yeah, it's interesting, like we all we
all bring what we can to the table, and a
lot of times what we can is just our own
personal experience. So yeah, I mean, you know, I again
like part of the reason that, like, like just based
on the last five minutes here, part of the reason
I gravitated towards those ones with the stripes, or because
(56:57):
part of my personal experience has informed like, hey, isn't
it nice when a flag has a nice kind of
stripe down the side there, even if it's on the hoist,
Like yeah, yeah, it is. Uh, it takes all kinds,
as they say.
Speaker 3 (57:10):
So I gad stripe with the blue fields of.
Speaker 4 (57:15):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, all right, Well dude, that was fascinating.
I'm I'm so glad we finally got to like hang
out and meet up a chat about all this, like
after the embargoes and everything. I mean, we could have
chatted about some of this a while ago, but I
really wanted to get in on a lot of that
Minnesota stuff and I think the viewers and listeners are
(57:35):
going in go nuts over that. So thank you so
much for finding the time to sit down with us
for so long today and everything.
Speaker 1 (57:45):
Really sincerely appreciate that. So we'll go ahead and wrap up. Brian,
where can people find your work? Follow your work? Uh,
just see what you got going on in general?
Speaker 3 (57:59):
Well, and some of the slides that I've shared, I've
put a QR code on that so you can scan
that with your plot and see a bit more. My
website is Brian sham nineteen dot com and that has
some of my leg designs for Alto and New Zealand
and you know, some other tips so other places like Australia.
(58:20):
If you're interested in the Minnesota flag process, it can
come to and that's where me and the rest of
the design team will feature and we will have a
presentation the full presentation showing the full design process there.
Speaker 4 (58:36):
Yeah, I would love for as many people as possible
to come to nab A fifty eight. I will be there,
as Brian mentioned, he will be there, Andrew Precker will
be there, the designer of the you know what ended
up being the Minnesota state flag.
Speaker 1 (58:49):
Lots of cool people. Yeah, yeah, dude, that's awesome.
Speaker 4 (58:53):
I will have as Brian mentioned, all of his slides,
including that QR code. I'll probably just put the link
itself in the show notes as well so you can
get to that stuff as easily as possible, and I
highly recommend that you do, because this is really fascinating
stuff and really cool kind of preview of some NAVA
fifty eight stuff as well. So as far as that goes,
(59:16):
well as far as following the show goes, you can
find all of our links over at linktree dot com.
Slash flagged four content all spelled out anywhere with an
AT symbol. We are at flagged four content for like
the number. As I mentioned several times, Join the discord.
The discord is where we have a lot of kind
of just fun, casual conversations between a lot of us.
(59:40):
It's where a couple of the questions on today's show
came from follow us on Instagram. That's where a lot
more came from. And I think that's pretty much it, uh, Brian,
I always plan to have a way to close the
show out, but I I always kind of you know,
lose my notes or end up bump bling it somehow.
(01:00:01):
So I'm just gonna throw to you, is there any
kind of a closing line or any any good way
that you can walk us out of here today?
Speaker 3 (01:00:10):
I think it's just time to flag off.
Speaker 4 (01:00:13):
It is time to flag off. And with that, Brian
and I will catch y'all on the fly side chat later.
Speaker 1 (01:00:21):
Take care of y'all. All right, awesome, we got it.
Speaker 4 (01:00:37):
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Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
My Favorite Murder is a true crime comedy podcast hosted by Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark. Each week, Karen and Georgia share compelling true crimes and hometown stories from friends and listeners. Since MFM launched in January of 2016, Karen and Georgia have shared their lifelong interest in true crime and have covered stories of infamous serial killers like the Night Stalker, mysterious cold cases, captivating cults, incredible survivor stories and important events from history like the Tulsa race massacre of 1921. My Favorite Murder is part of the Exactly Right podcast network that provides a platform for bold, creative voices to bring to life provocative, entertaining and relatable stories for audiences everywhere. The Exactly Right roster of podcasts covers a variety of topics including historic true crime, comedic interviews and news, science, pop culture and more. Podcasts on the network include Buried Bones with Kate Winkler Dawson and Paul Holes, That's Messed Up: An SVU Podcast, This Podcast Will Kill You, Bananas and more.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.