Ep. 66: Chesapeake Bae w/ Joseph Latshaw

 We've truly Chesa-peaked this week, as Andy sits down with Joseph Latshaw, one of the leaders of the Chesapeake Bay Flag Association. Joseph gives us an inside look at how a smaller, regional flag group works, and we chat about his home state pride via the New Jersey Civic Flag Project he's spearheading. Plus, a flag inspired by a carpet, or a carpet inspired by a flag?

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
We've got theos and a few image matters. Will you
might even get to standards and what they represent. So
just tick my voices hand a lit try to understand
this logic podcast, Cular Factook Count, Flag Food.

Speaker 2 (00:22):
Count, What's Up? Backsads, and Welcome to episode sixty six
of Flagged for Content. It's the only podcast that Denmark
says is quote not for sale. Speaking of for sale,
it is also a flags for Good podcast, and you

(00:43):
can head on over two Flags for Good dot com
slash flagged for content for like the number and pick
yourself up some very sweet flags. I know the Greenland
one just came in because it is on the way
to me. If you want to be like me, go
get yourself a green flag, a Panama flag. They've got
a ton of them. And when you do, put in

(01:04):
code flagged four content for like the number at checkout
and you'll get just like a bonus ten percent off
and it helps out the show. So when when, as
I always mentioned, I don't have a ton of notes
on this one, one of the main things I wanted
to mention up top is there is a meeting of

(01:25):
the CBFA, the Chesape Bay Flag Association that's mentioned later
in the episode. I am going to be attending that.
It is on February twenty third, which I think is
a Sunday at eleven am, so I will be there.
I hope to see as many of you there as possible.
I'm not going to be a huge part of it, obviously,

(01:46):
it's their show to run, but I am probably gonna.
I'll probably present like a vexy bit which may or
may not just be based on this episode, who knows,
but I would love to see as many backsads there
as possible, and I know the CBFA would too. It
is free, so yeah, just hit me up. I think
there should be links in the show notes as well.

(02:10):
Only other thing worth mentioning is last episode I had
Alan Hardy on and he did request a couple flags
in my background that had not gotten to me yet
in one case and in the other case I couldn't find.
So Alan, if you're watching, I got your Nottingham and
I got the Nava flag up here, so if you're listening,

(02:32):
just trust me, and I think that's pretty much it
as far as our lanx, I mention them as always
later in the show, but go to our link tree
find all our stuff there. Yeah, including the Patreon which
has a little bit extra of me and Joseph talking
about pretty much just an extension of what you're gonna

(02:55):
hear in the main episode. So anyway, I am not
gonna waste any more of your time. Let's go ahead
and execute episode sixty six. Folks, we have yet another
effectsy all star on the show this week. You know
him from the Chesapeake Bay Flag Association. You know him
as the creator of the New Jersey Civic Flag Project,

(03:18):
and you know him as an all around flagner. It's
it's Joseph Flash. Hi.

Speaker 3 (03:24):
Thanks thanks for having me. It's a pleasure, pleasure to
be here.

Speaker 2 (03:28):
Dude, pleasure is a online Thanks for thanks for agreeing
to come on the show. It's uh, then, what have
you been up to since? I think it's been since
like nav fifty eight since I saw you.

Speaker 3 (03:37):
Yeah, so since since then? Right?

Speaker 4 (03:39):
Uh?

Speaker 3 (03:40):
My everyday life outside of vexillology is history. So you know,
I work at a historic site, and I do other
history things outside of that, volunteering wise, and so I
like to keep busy with all of that. I actually
work at at all interesting to anyone else. Work at

(04:03):
what's called Cedar Bridge Tavern, it's a county historic site
in New Jersey and it was the site of the
last documented land engagement of the Revolution.

Speaker 2 (04:15):
Yeah, which is wild. I did not know that until
until you told me off air beforehand. Like I just
assumed that it was in like Virginia or Maryland or
I don't know, somewhere thereabouts.

Speaker 3 (04:29):
Yeah, I mean so right, we know about like what
you're probably referencing with Virginia is is Yorktown? Which town is?
In seventeen eighty one, that's like when the main armies
right sort of stopped going after each other because they're
trying to get to peace. But that doesn't come all
until seventeen eighty three. We have to remember that they're

(04:49):
going back and forth on ships and send me, you know,
all that information by letters, and we're just sending texts
all that time. You know, there's still a lot of
like political strife and and it's mostly militia actions. And
that's really what Cedar Bridge have in the fair Cedar
Bridge is it's a small militia action against pine robbers.

(05:14):
But they were loyalists, right, Okay.

Speaker 2 (05:16):
Cool.

Speaker 3 (05:17):
It's like a tiny, little local piece of history, but
has I think national importance.

Speaker 2 (05:22):
Oh yeah, yeah, obviously very much so in that case,
So do you think, like, so your interest in like
that aspect of history and your participation in the Chesapeake
Bay Flag Association are those like co terminal, Like, you know,
are you interested in like revolutionary war history stuff like

(05:42):
that or is it kind of just a coincidence.

Speaker 3 (05:46):
Yeah, so it's funny you mentioned that, right, So, being
into vexology, would think it would coincide with my you know,
history and what I like about the Revolutionary War, right,
But that's not necessarily the case. I actually really, I
guess I really haven't had a chance to to uh
meld the two interests. My real interest is like local

(06:08):
municipal flags and things like that. But you know, I know,
Peter Ensoff is really good with revolutionary or flags, and
but I just I don't know, I guess it really
hasn't been so much of an opportunity to connect the two. Yeah,
but uh but yeah, Chesapeaky Flag Association. You know, generally, right,

(06:28):
the majority of members are in Virginia, Maryland down there,
but we kind of have a wider catchment area than that,
and that we include New Jersey and even parts of Pennsylvania.
The only reason we even do that is they're not
part of any other flag association, so it's the cast

(06:49):
to widen that. But also just too when we have,
like say a meeting online, those people can hop on
and we try to have a good variety of places
that we meet in person. So you know, I think
we're actually trying to have a meaning in Philly pretty soon.
So we'll see how it happens, you know, if we

(07:12):
try to include more and more people and the things
we do so right on.

Speaker 2 (07:15):
Yeah, yeah, definitely a good goal there. I also appreciate
that you use words like catchment and cast a wide
net for the Chesapeake Bay Flag Association again, you know,
but still, yeah, it's like your mind's in that that
kind of area anyway. Well do That's awesome? Yeah, we will.

(07:36):
We will have a lot more to say on the CBFA.
I'm sure. Let's go ahead and give the give the
vex heads a preview of what's on the flagpole today.
We have got our usual under and overrated flags. And
when I say usual in this case, let's just say
one has started to show up on this list quite frequently.

(07:57):
We'll talk about Joseph's research process and some amazing stories
that he's both uncovered and been a part of, going
to some some of the things from his intro, like
the New Jersey Civic Flag Project and of course the
Chesse Bay Flag Association, and yeah, just a whole lot else.
But before we get into any of that, Joseph, I
do like to ask my guests up top here, what

(08:19):
is your favorite flag?

Speaker 3 (08:21):
Yeah, so my favorite flag is I'm probably only one
that says this flag is my favorite, but it's my
flag of my home county of Ocean, Ocean County, and
so I bet any of the listeners haven't seen it,
have never heard of it, but it's one of the
ones that is near and dear to my heart. It's

(08:42):
a flag that sort of started my journey into this
rabbit hole. That's that's you know, civic flags in New Jersey.
But just to describe it, oh wow, yeah, you know,
to help the listeners, It's a flag on a light
blue field and in the center what it looks like

(09:02):
a seal, but it's not. It's an emblem. So you
can still make the same arguments that you know, maybe
it's a little too detailed and everything like that, but
it has the words Ocean County, New Jersey encircled and
then in the middle is a scene of the famous
Barnegat Lighthouse overlooking the Barnegat Bay. So, you know the history,

(09:29):
Like being a history person, you know, it's a really
good call to like the maritime heritage of the county.
But it was actually created by a thirteen year old
at the time, Sandra Pierre, through a contest not through
the county, but through the Ocean County Historical Society in

(09:49):
nineteen fifty four. Oh okay, And so it ends up
being that her design gets picked. She actually it's like
a I think it was like a twenty five dollars
savings bond. I love, you know, hey, right? And and
what's interesting is uh in Jack Lowe pointed this out
to me not too long ago. I guess I've looked

(10:11):
at it too many times. I guess I would suffer
from that, and being that I walk past it every
day at work and things like that. But the original design,
I can't believe I ever thought of this or saw it.
But Jack loaded he said that in the artwork, which
is true. This is all true. Her original design, It

(10:33):
says Ocean County. The resolution that was passed by the
Border Freeholders Now Commissioners to adopt the flag for the
county says Ocean County, Comma and Jay, and the current
flag that flies all over. I actually have it in
my room. I'm looking at it right now. Yeahs Ocean County,

(10:54):
New Jersey, like fully spelled out. Which is bizarre because I, uh,
I think what I said offline or something was, uh,
there's only one Ocean County in the entire country. There
is no other county of Ocean.

Speaker 2 (11:08):
Yeah, which shocked me because like as much coastline as
we have in the US, like I would just think
there would be an Ocean County California or Florida or
I mean, hell, South Carolina, you know, like something.

Speaker 3 (11:20):
But and it was funny because I didn't really know
that until maybe a couple months ago. Just being that
it's a very generic name, you would have thought, you know,
you know, all this is all over, but nope, there's
only one. And then one more wrinkle to this whole
Why is this my favorite flag? Only because it caused me?
It caused me a lot of angst is And this

(11:43):
is even more recent, like within the past two weeks,
I was at ah this rededication of this administration building
for the county and public inform this Department of Public Information.
They put together the program and the flag that they
were using, and the board of commissioneris you know, my
boss's boss's boss, you know all this stuff. So hopefully

(12:03):
this doesn't get back to them, you know, this would
be very bad.

Speaker 2 (12:07):
There are dozens of people that listen to this.

Speaker 3 (12:09):
Yes, yeah, there's many people know she kunty government listen
to this, yeah, which would be hey. But the flag
they were the Ocean County flag that they were using,
wasn't this light blue field that you know to represent
the ocean. It was a dark blue. What happens is
what my theory is that there is and this is bizarre,

(12:31):
and I'm sure this happens in other weird ways, but
no one knows the difference between I'm probably the only
one in the entire county that knows the difference between
a seal, an emblem, and a logo. So what ends
up happening is they probably used this emblem thinking it
was the seal, and it ended up on these carpets

(12:52):
that they use for like offices. So when you walk
into the office, I'm looking at the Ocean County floor flag,
just with a darker field of blue, and you're walking
on it. So it's bizarre. It's basically like I'm walking
on a flag.

Speaker 2 (13:09):
Yeah, I remember you saying that off air, and like,
and I imagine anyone who you say that to who's
even somewhat of a flag nerd ears would perk up
and be like, wait, what so you just walk all
over it? Like that's not.

Speaker 3 (13:24):
That's not And I think what happened with the flag,
but I think what happened with this one flag is
they took the carpet and said, oh, yeah, that's the flag.
They took that dark blue and then and printed it
that way.

Speaker 5 (13:37):
Oh okay, okay, right, that's definitely the seal and the
color of the carpet is this, so we can just well,
we'll infer that that's the field.

Speaker 3 (13:50):
Must be true. Yeah yeah, and so but to make
myself same, I've had to think of a way around it.
So this dark blue flag, I'm calling it the Board
of Commissioner's flag to differentiate. I don't think that's the case.
I just but I have to. I have to live
with it because as soon as I would ever point
it out to anyone of importance at the county. They would,

(14:13):
they would, you know, come to its defense. You know,
they didn't know about it, you know, five seconds.

Speaker 2 (14:18):
Ago, right right right, Flags and employees with it.

Speaker 3 (14:22):
I have to live with it.

Speaker 2 (14:24):
That's funny. So I think you were saying off air too,
like that's not only your favorite but also kind of
the one that got you into Flags. Just by virtue
of working there and like seeing it every day, you
kind of like did more digging than you normally would have,
I guess.

Speaker 3 (14:38):
Or yeah, so you know, walking by it, you know,
almost daily. Yeah, you know, it's like for a while
it's just like, oh yeah, it looks like the seal,
and I just kind of forgot about it. I was like,
you know, it's it's interesting, Like I like flag, but
you know, oh that's the flag, you know. And but
when I more seriously started to take a look at it,
I was like, this makes me deeply uncomfortable. That's not

(15:00):
the seal? What is that? What is that? I've never
seen that before? And so so I ended up like
you know, doing the right thing and looking at newspapers,
you know, a microfilm and going back and trying to
find stuff.

Speaker 2 (15:12):
Wow, it was.

Speaker 3 (15:13):
What was really interesting is that I'm a trustee at
the Ocean kind of historical study, and so the evidence
was was sitting in the research center where I go
all the time, like almost like once a week. I
ended up being like part of the research was me
just going over to a file and pulling out minutes

(15:34):
from nineteen fifty four and finding oh, yeah, so and
so does mister Jack Lampin, who was also involved in
the county and ironically public information. So something information has
gotten the flag wrong, you know how many years later.
I guess it's a full circle kind of thing. But

(15:55):
it's it's bizarre that it was sitting right beside me,
all the all the all the history behind it.

Speaker 2 (16:01):
Yeah, I mean, I guess you're started.

Speaker 3 (16:04):
Uh you know. It was this innocent thing of all right, well,
I know, Ocean County is what about like the flags
of the town and uh and then I was like,
all right, so I've I've got pretty much some basic
infell in the towns in the county. Oh how hard
could it be in a do New Jersey? Yeah that's
uh yeah, what an innocent question. I know the answer
to that is not not as simple trivia. So yeah,

(16:29):
well that's cool.

Speaker 2 (16:30):
I mean, yeah, you were definitely in the right place
to look up information should you want to. So all right,
let's go ahead and get into I'm pretty excited to
get into both. You're over and underrated, but for different reasons.
I let the guest pick, so you can choose whichever

(16:51):
one you want to start, uh, and therefore finish with
the other one.

Speaker 3 (16:56):
Yeah, so my overrated flag, I'll go with that first. Yes,
might I guess, uh, you know, off put a few
people they might, you know, I guess, sorry, any they
might you know, as soon as he hears might tune off.
But willing to take that risk. It's the flag of Maryland.
Ah what Yeah, yeah, yeah, you said it wasn't too uncommon.

(17:20):
This is coming up, but I didn't. I've listened to
the podcast a few times, but I have not come
across an episode where the Maryland flag was mentioned. So
this is purely on my own accord, and my my
reason being is that obviously, like the the it's not
a bad flag. It's a very good flag. It does
its job very well. But I think we're to the

(17:41):
point where it's it's I think you said like oversaturated,
but I think the better word for it was it's
becoming like a kitch, like it's everywhere everything, no matter
what I mean. It's like even to the point where
is it really Maryland if it's just on everything like
it's a gas station whatever, and it's like okay.

Speaker 2 (18:05):
Yeah, literally everywhere. I mean like you you mentioned uh
the first time we tried this, but yeah, like the
University of Maryland had it on their like terrapins had
it on their helmets for a while, Like yeah, you're
kind of bizarre. Hard to look that way.

Speaker 3 (18:22):
I mean yeah, I mean like for like, I'm in
New Jersey, right, so I'm a Ruckers fan. I have
to suffer through those games, and so they play marine, right,
I would have to see these flags. And it wasn't
just that it was like a it wasn't I have
to add this detail. It wasn't that it was just
like the flag, but it had this like betina to

(18:43):
it where it was like it just looked like it
was like roughed up almost and it was this bizarre
kind of look. And yes, but it was still very
much like in your face about it. It's like, I
don't know, are you're from Maryland? I guess you are.
You know, so, yeah, it's everywhere. And the reason why

(19:04):
I kind of put on the over rated list is,
you know, I think there's a level at which, right,
we want the flags to be out there, but we
also want to have some dignity with it. Like you know, right,
it's a public domain kind of thing at this point
right in Maryland, anyone can use it for anything, right,
but there's sort of like a level at which you know,

(19:25):
is it is it still a dignified symbol of Maryland.
I mean, to be debated, that's fine, but it's just
to put that out there to you know, still, yeah,
make a controversial statement now.

Speaker 2 (19:40):
Yeah, yeah, but no, but yeah, like like we were
talking about, it's just like yeah, like you said, kitsch
and like I said, like just the market is oversaturated
with it. It's trying to I don't remember the episode number,
but one of the early episodes I had Curtis Tarbor
on Shout Out Curtis, and his episode was largely about

(20:02):
the Maryland flag because he has a lot of like
he doesn't currently live there, but and he was like, yeah,
they He's like it's like that old Bay commercial where
it's like, uh, I think it's an Old Bay commercial,
which is another Maryland company, which makes sense, but it's like, yeah,
I put that shit on everything they will just like
there's the meme of like the flex seal guy, like

(20:22):
just slapping the Maryland flag on like the tank of
water or whatever problem solved.

Speaker 3 (20:29):
Like you know, if he's getting involved, this flexial guy,
then you know it's uh.

Speaker 2 (20:34):
Yeah, good, yeah, yeah, it's uh. It is just friggin everywhere.
And like I I don't know, like in a way
that and I'm obviously biased because being a Tennessee and
of course I'm gonna prefer my state symbols, but the
TriStar to me, like it started to be a lot

(20:55):
more places like they're putting it on like architecture and
overpasses and stuff. Now I talk about this sometimes, but
like it to me is not egregious. Seeing it on
a keychain makes sense, like a bottle open er keychain
that just has like a circle that's got the trystar
and then the bottom is a bottle opener or whatever.
I don't know why that gets under my skin way

(21:17):
less part of it, like I said, I'm sure is biased.
Part of it is, like you said, just the it's
what would you call it, like garish, it's it's it's
very in your face, like the Maryland flag, the design
of it. And yeah, I don't know, I'm not gonna tell.

Speaker 3 (21:34):
Part of it, like what you were saying versus the
Tennessee flag, right, like they they mostly use that that
cluster of the circle, just do that, but with the
Maryland flag they kind of have to use all of it. Yeah,
it's either like none or all. And and yeah, I
guess it's sort of like the grocery store thing, right,
Like I used to work in the grocery store and

(21:55):
then I sort of whatever. Yeah, color theory, all these things, right,
But I guess your eyes go to read and yellow first,
and that's why they use it on the sales signs.
So obviously that wasn't the reason behind all the design
of the Maryland flag. But your eyes are just always
going to it, even if there's other things around it.

(22:15):
So I think our eyes might just get fatigued from it.

Speaker 2 (22:21):
Yeah, yeah, I think. Hell, I think somehow we had
more to say about it this time than the first
time we tried this. Probably full disclosure, I screwed up
the recording again, But anyway, we are back and we
have caught up to where we were, which is leading
into your underrated flag. And I very much want to

(22:42):
hear your opinion on this one too, kind of for
the opposite reason than the Maryland one, just because I
don't know very much. I know what this flag looks like,
and that is about it.

Speaker 3 (22:53):
Yeah. So my underrated flag is one that I think
people sort of definitely like put off, just sort of
like the state itself. So you have, I guess a
little chip on the shoulder of it. And but it's
a state of New Jersey for me, my home state.
If it's done right, if the color is right, that

(23:15):
that nice buff color, I think it's wonderful. Unfortunately, it
gets kind of undermined because of manufacturing right A lot
of times it'll just be like a yeah, or like
a close approximation. But if you can get your hands
on a nice New Jersey flag, that buff color is
something else.

Speaker 2 (23:35):
I would love to Actually, if you have recommendations, either
now or after.

Speaker 3 (23:40):
Actually I don't have them off the top of my head. Okay, yeah,
but generally any of the suppliers for the state usually
have have good ones.

Speaker 2 (23:49):
Well, we'll chat after and I can put them in
the show notes and stuff too, if anybody else is interested.
But I am interested in getting one, and it's basically
it's sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off, but
it is basically for that buff color reasoning. So yeah,
go go more into that.

Speaker 3 (24:03):
Yeah. So that that buff color is one of the
two official state colors of New Jersey, the other being Oh,
let's see soon as I said, I'm gonna forget once,
I do often I said that before Jersey blue. That's
what That's what it is, Jersey blue. And the reasoning
behind it is that it was the color of the

(24:25):
New Jersey troops during the Revolution on their uniforms. I mean, yes,
but not always in every case. But if you put
those two colors together, they really compliment each other. And
so I wish there was some Jersey below the flag.
But I think the buff color is just so unique
out of out of all the fifty states, you know,

(24:46):
there's so many that have just like that blue field.
It just really takes it to a next level. Right
next door, Pennsylvania has got that dark blue, and then
New York has that dark blue, and the New Jersey
sy in there with that nice color. You get it right,
it works.

Speaker 2 (25:03):
Yeah, I even like I've done, I need to get
back to doing some of these, although I ended up
doing enough of them that there's not many more to do.
But there's like tier lists, the tear maker lists and everything.
Of flags. I did a US States one m and
I'm not going to take the time to pull up
my specific one right now because I can't find it.

(25:24):
But I do remember that I put New Jersey slightly
higher than the just field of sobs like on blue.
I think I also put Washington one higher too, just
again just because of its green color. There's something that,
you know, it at least makes it stand out, like
you said, from in its case, from its neighbors of

(25:47):
New York and Pennsylvania.

Speaker 3 (25:50):
But yeah, it's a fine line. It's a fine line.

Speaker 2 (25:53):
Yeah. And that buff color, if I'm not mistaken, that
comes from, like you said, the the military uniforms. But
that in turn came from like tanned deer hides, I
guess or something.

Speaker 3 (26:05):
Like Yeah, so it would have been uh, yeah, so
it would have been from the you know, the color
that that was there. It wasn't. That's just something that
was that was you know, manufacturer looked that way. It's
just that's that was the natural look right right, right,
so there's even more of that. It's not like this artificial,
I mean it is artificial, right, Like it's sort of

(26:26):
been ah taken. But uh, I guess the only downside
is the is the I guess see, like I don't
really like right, like you have the flag design guidelines
and stuff, and I know, I know Ted is like
almost apologetic at this point of how much like it's caused,
like that's you know, inclined to agree with him, Like

(26:51):
I I really, I really don't care if it's scott
like a seal or an emblem or whatever. It's just
kind of my thing. I like the flags the way
they are, you know, and it's also for me, And
it kind of leads into a little bit of the
other stuff with the new Jersey Civic Flag project. I think, well,

(27:15):
with a lot of these flag redesigns, they're very quick
to like dismiss the old flag and get rid of it,
which is fine if they really like the new design,
but we forget that we've got to save the history
of that old flag, you know.

Speaker 2 (27:29):
Yeah. I think states, well states, maybe more than cities,
are coming around on that, like how Utah has made
their old one their historic flag, and how Maine and
Illinois both have kept their actual flags on ballots, things
like that. But yeah, I definitely understand what you mean.

Speaker 6 (27:48):
And I was going to ask you to that point,
would would you be open to any kind of state
flag change in New Jersey?

Speaker 2 (27:59):
Uh? Given how much do you like this one? I mean, like,
I guess like there's that it's a very open ended
question because it's.

Speaker 3 (28:09):
About it. I don't think I've ever come to a
real answer, just because I really like that buff color.
But I know that that part of that seal, it's
not even really the whole seal, it's just the device
that's in the siren obviously could use some work, but
I just think there's so much like apathy to it

(28:29):
that I think, if you know, like I said, those
Kenny flag, if if anyone says anything, then of course
they're gonna be like, oh my gosh, you can't change
the flag. Yeah, And and really like on a on
a national level, right like New Jersey's seen as like
a very like blue state, but internally, like the last
the last governor's election, Murphy had the slightest majority. Yeah,

(28:53):
it was, like, I mean, it was crazy. So so
I'm sure if that ever came up within the next
few years it would it might get kind of like
almost similar to the yeah, Minnesota flag, where it sort
of just gets maybe co opted with that like cultural
war stuff. Not that it is, right, but it's like

(29:16):
one more thing to add to the list of things
to like complain about, you know, just because like other things, right,
So there's always that kind of thing. But yeah, I
mean I've never heard too much noise around the New
Jersey flag.

Speaker 2 (29:33):
Yeah. I mean, I'm not a Jersey resident, but I
haven't either, not nearly to the level of you know,
I'm also not a Minnesota, Maine, Illinois resident, but have
heard a lot of movement around those and even some
other states that haven't even really taken those steps yet.
But yeah, nothing about New Jersey. Yeah, I do really

(29:55):
like that buff color. I almost couldn't care less what's
in the middle of it.

Speaker 3 (30:00):
Yeah, Yeah, you can almost do like a Libya thing, right,
like just have the field of buff.

Speaker 2 (30:05):
Yeah, there you go, fly a tanned deer hide.

Speaker 3 (30:10):
Yes, yes, yes.

Speaker 2 (30:13):
Does it Okay? Wait, now am I wrong? Or do
they use urine to tan hides.

Speaker 3 (30:21):
Uh, well, I guess there's probably different way historically. Okay, yeah, I.

Speaker 2 (30:26):
Was gonna say, like there is there some joke in
there that it's like a piss flag, like a piss
colored fla.

Speaker 3 (30:32):
No, I've never I've never come. I think you're the
first person to ever say that that's that's ah yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (30:39):
Well great distinction for me. I just I know how
much people like to ship on New Jersey for whatever reason.
Most of the people have not even been there.

Speaker 3 (30:53):
But yeah, figure, you got everything New Jersey, Like this
is my pitch for New Jersey, right, yeah, yeah, Everyone
from New Jersey always has the pitch of New Jersey
like they have it ready to go.

Speaker 2 (31:03):
Oh they do. Yeah, I mean we I.

Speaker 3 (31:05):
Mean we've got everything. We've got. We've got the part
of the Appalachian Mountains cuts through in northwest Jersey. We've
got obviously, We've got like Jersey City and all the
other you know, urban areas up north. We've got the
huge pinelands. I'm only like, I'm a twenty minute drive
away and I could be the middle of nowhere. Cranberry Bogs,
Cranberry Bogs, you know, we've got all that. And in fact,

(31:28):
blueberries the ones that we eat every day creating New Jersey.
And we've got the long coastline of all the beaches,
and and then we've got all the colonial heritage and
like really sweetish heritage and stuff in uh in the
Delaware Valley. So I mean it it it spans the
whole state. And we've got a lot of farmland in

(31:50):
the in the middle of the state.

Speaker 2 (31:51):
So I can tell you're passionate about this, and I
would be too. I get that way about Tennessee and
and East Tennessee specifically too. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (31:58):
Now, I remember when you when you go when people
travel to New York, when they go to New York City,
I should say, they fly in to Newark and all
they see is just the industrial stuff that it right, right, Yeah,
And so that is not a good cell. It's just
not I mean, no, they don't see everything else. And

(32:20):
and then people that flying to say Philly or things
like that, again they only see like some of the
port stuff. Yeah, it's industrial stuff. It's more to it
than just that.

Speaker 2 (32:33):
I will say I've spent a bit of time. I
haven't spent any time in South Jersey unfortunately, but I've
spent a bit of time in North Jersey and more
specifically in Bergen County, and I will say the best
bagels I've ever had in my life are from New Jersey, not.

Speaker 3 (32:46):
From New York. Yeah, I got the best bagels, got
the best pizza.

Speaker 2 (32:49):
Honestly, I would say the pizza is is it? It's
damn close between y'all and Connecticut. Connecticut New Haven, Oh man,
you need check out New Haven Pizza.

Speaker 3 (33:01):
Some times I'm afraid. I'm afraid I never want to
move out in New Jersey because I could miss out
on these things, like I have had to move down
to Virginia, drive like forty minutes to get like a
decent slice.

Speaker 2 (33:13):
Oh my god.

Speaker 3 (33:14):
Yeah, not even like a good slice.

Speaker 2 (33:16):
And when you drive in Virginia that yeah, I hate
driving in Virginia. I'm not going to go into all
that because we need to get to a break. We've
gone like a little bit over, which is fine, but
we are going to take a break when we come back.
I think let's let's go into We'll start on the
Chesapeake Bay Flag Association. We'll probably get into some of

(33:39):
the Jersey Civic Flag projects, which I keep having to
read very slowly as well, and uh and what we
don't get to in part two we'll get to in
part three. But for now we are going to take
a break and we will be right back.

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Speaker 2 (35:33):
All right. And we are back more with Joseph Flatshaw
from the Chesapeake Bay Flag Association among other things. But
as mentioned that one because the one that we're going
to get into presently. So Joseph, if you want to
just kind of paint with a broadbrush, big picture right now,
give us the rundown of what the CBFA is and does.

Speaker 3 (35:57):
Yeah, yeah, So the Chesabea Bay Flag ISSU is sort
of a informal group right of flag enthusiasts, and so
what we try to do outside of the NAVA conference
is provide sort of a meeting space and a way

(36:17):
to kind of exchange ideas and thoughts on flags, you know,
in between that that yearly conference. And so for a while,
for a really long time, actually Jack Lowe was was
running the running the show there. So he recently stepped down.
So after a while, so he's gone, he's done his

(36:40):
time most definitely and uh and leading that organization. So
he kind of was like, yeah, we need some people
to do we want to carry this forward. I'm going
to keep moving on. And so there's enough of us
so between so there's three of us that now lead
CBF A. Anthony I also Charlie Smith and myself. We

(37:04):
kind of take care of the planning, the emails, the
zoom stuff, and it's not too heavy a lift. But
so what we do is three times a year we
do a winter meeting, Spring and then summer we try
to get people together to talk flags. Two of those
times we're like in person, so we go to a

(37:26):
site usually like a museum or something, right there's always
usually history adjacent with flags, but not always. And then
in the winter we do a zoom meeting and that
usually actually captures a lot more people. Generally have about
fifteen to twenty people at a in person meeting, but
at zoom we could have upwards of thirty maybe forty

(37:49):
at the most.

Speaker 2 (37:50):
Oh wow.

Speaker 3 (37:51):
But the catchment area, as you said, Chessweake Bay, so
you would think generally Virginia Maryland, Delaware and a few others,
but we we kind of have a broader area with
New Jersey and Pennsylvania. So it's just been kind of fun,
you know. I bet I kind of do more of
like the I check the email, I invite new members

(38:16):
and take care of the plan in when it comes
to like the zoom meetings and lining up vexhibits and
things like that. But generally it's a pretty laid back
at in sphere and and yeah, so it's it's been fun.
It's been fun, and it is fun for people that
want to do right.

Speaker 2 (38:33):
Yeah, now that that sounds like a blast. I guess
like a lot of my questions and thoughts on it
kind of center around it being a regional thing, like
a regional entity instead of a national or technically international
one like NAVA. But so let's go back. So you said,

(38:57):
so there's three of you on the like leadership board, right.

Speaker 3 (39:01):
Yeah, team, So so we're not even So this is
an interesting right with like many organizations, I guess at
some point it was incorporated, we're not. I don't think
we're incorporated now. So it's like when I said it's
in for a while, I mean, like very informal, we're
sort of like the three people that kind of do stuff.

(39:22):
We're the shepherds of it and kind of getting people together.
So okay, association, sure, yeah.

Speaker 2 (39:28):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean for sure.

Speaker 3 (39:31):
Yeah, And but we are a full member of FIAV.
So that was an interesting thing, like over the summer.

Speaker 2 (39:37):
Okay, that was gonna be one of my Yeah.

Speaker 3 (39:40):
Sorry to steal your thunder there, but but it was
sort of an interesting thing. I get like an email
and they're like, oh, yeah, can you, like if no
one's going to be there, can you like have a
representative and like rerecording remarks? And I was like, oh,
all right, I guess we have to do that. So
we ended up deputize in had K. So he was
very nice about that. So he made decisions for half

(40:00):
of you know, CBFA at FIAF and uh and then
out of the three of us, I just ended up
doing a recording just a short hello and you know
that kind of thing. So yeah, yeah, So we our
mailing list is we don't really have membership, so we
just basically if if you want to show up, right,

(40:22):
if not, you know, at least know what's happening. And
we have a pretty hefty mailing list that we keep together.

Speaker 2 (40:29):
Yeah, I saw that. Well I didn't necessarily I didn't
see your mailing list to be to be clear, but
I did see that. It looks like pretty much anyone
who wants to join can join. They're not like dues
or specific requirements in place.

Speaker 3 (40:44):
As far as you really need to be a vexillologist,
do you give you just be someone who's like, yeah,
you know, okay, I'll try it out whatever. And a
lot of times we have people that bring like their
family members, you know, the spouse is of course, and
then just maybe like a friend just to check it out.
And so we really invite anyone. It doesn't it's not

(41:07):
closed off to just nav a member. So of course
we do have majority NAVA members, but it really can
be anyone. It really could be anyone.

Speaker 2 (41:14):
So yeah, I bet you have a few members that,
I mean, whether you talk about this or not, or
they talk about it or not, like that are kind
of like Navia curious almost and like are like, well,
let me dip my toe in a little bit here
and see if I like this type thing.

Speaker 3 (41:30):
But or yeah, I mean I think that's the great
part about CBFA is that, like you said, there's no
there's no dues, there's no like requirements of anything. It's
just if you want to show up great And so
it allows you to to you know, dip in and
see if you like it. And but we we we
our membership ranges from from people like that that are

(41:53):
kind of unsure and maybe they're interested to You've got
like Jack, you know, the likes of Jack Low, Peter Enzof.

Speaker 2 (42:00):
Yeah, I mean most.

Speaker 3 (42:01):
Of others that really have for years and years have
really been at the top echelons of of of NAVA.
And like I was gonna say, I'm missing a whole
bunch of names, but those are just like the top
of my mind. Yeah, but yeah, yeah, So it's a
really eclectic, awesome group. And what I find is just
like the NAVA conference meetings, you know, well, we'll eat

(42:25):
lunch or whatever, and the conversation quickly steers not intentionally
away from flags, but just onto other subjects where it's
it's almost like a it's like a learned uh you know,
Jeffersonian sort of conversation where it's you're talking about map,
You're talking about this historical event, your geography, I mean

(42:46):
a million other things, and yeah, flows freely, you know,
and that's that's a really nice thing that doesn't happen
too often, I feel like anymore.

Speaker 2 (42:54):
Yeah, yeah, it takes the right group for sure. So okay, sorry,
So you guys get together three times annually. One is
virtual online, two are in person, and they are like
generally speaking, like how far am I going to have
to drive to get to one of these?

Speaker 3 (43:15):
Yes, so we we what we're trying to figure out
is looking over from Jack, is do we want to
kind of have like a rotating schedule of you know,
and do we want to be like one one meeting
like in the true Chesapeake area and then one maybe
closer to like New Jersey and Pennsylvania to you know,

(43:36):
have people come to the meetings. So but right now,
what we've been doing is we just whoever, I should say,
one's virtual, one is at a member's home, and then
one is at a site.

Speaker 2 (43:48):
So I was, okay, gotcha, and you said the site's
usually like a museum or sometimes something.

Speaker 3 (43:52):
Like that, and we basically just go whatever pops up.
So so past to the past two in person meetings.
One was at actually Anthony Iosso's house, which actually wasn't
too that far from West Virginia, so that was quite
a drive. But we still had I think a healthy

(44:13):
amount about fifteen people. I mean I drive like some
like four hours or whatever.

Speaker 2 (44:20):
Yeah, I was looking up directions to Baltimore. It's nine
and a half hours.

Speaker 3 (44:24):
Yeah, that might be a bit far. Yeah, but again
that's why we offer that Zoom meeting, so that no
matter what, at least once a year you can you
can join in. I think I will always. We're tweaking
what we're doing. We're trying to find marginal gains, but
without also keeping it light, you know, easy enough to
kind of organize, you know.

Speaker 2 (44:45):
So yeah, I'm very interested in this because, like I
I got into NAVA shortly after starting this podcast, or
pretty much right at the same time that I started this,
and I know a little bit about FIAV. I've not
been to one of their conferences, but obviously I'm the
tech guy for NAVA, so I help jelko Heimer get in,

(45:07):
you know, virtually to the NAVA meetings every year and
everything like that. Hm. But like my big blind spot
is like these admittedly smaller like regional associations, like I
think there's there's yours, there's there's one in New England.
I think there's like a Great Lakes one. I think
there's one up near ted like.

Speaker 3 (45:28):
In ye Portland Flag. Yeah, yeah, that's probably the most
always yeah, the most what sorry to me, that's probably
the most active. But there's also a difference in like
our approaches.

Speaker 2 (45:42):
Sure, I was gonna ask about that, So what is
the difference in approach? I mean, I was gonna ask
it in relation to NAVA, But if you want to
put it up against that as well, that'd be great.
Although give us a baseline for what theirs is, and
and just like wondering if you guys have any kind
of like initiatives, like any kind of like proactive things,
or if you're more of just like a hobbyist group

(46:04):
that gets together and talks. I join either, but I'm
just curious.

Speaker 3 (46:09):
Yeah, So I would say the main difference between Chesapeare
Bay Flag Association and Portland Flag Association is that we
don't we don't publish like a newsletter or anything of
that sort. That's just one of those things I know. Well,
so in the past they had at least a few issues,

(46:30):
but just like anything else, it's just a matter of
finding the people that want to do that. And so
it's one of those things where we've made a conscious
decision to to sort of pare down to the bear essentials.
You know, why do people you know join this organization
even informally, and really it's the meanings and so we've

(46:52):
really focused in on that and making that sort of
sort of like the mean thing for for CBFA and
UH and we think it's working. You know, every meaning
we go to, people are always happy to be there and
and and talk flags and if that's the if that's
what people want, that's what we're going to do. So yeah,
and Portland Flag Association they have a lot of a

(47:15):
lot of active members and it's also a small or
much much much much smaller catchment.

Speaker 2 (47:20):
Area like yeah, yeah, yeah, so.

Speaker 3 (47:24):
You know, differences and but healthy differences and it fits
for whoever is in charge, whoever is in in the
area and what they want. So we we basically do
what what we want to do, you know, as as
simple as that. So right now we don't we don't
butte off more than we can chew. That that's the
most important part we want to make that isn't too

(47:49):
laborers and it's we keep the focus on on on flags.

Speaker 2 (47:55):
Right right, Okay, So I was gonna ask as well.
So you mentioned, as we've brought up a couple of times,
there are three of you like kind of on the
pretty casual unofficial leadership board that you know, kind of
split responsibilities this way, and that I get the sense
that the that the membership, or at least the leadership

(48:20):
skews a little bit younger in Chesapeake Bay than it
does in NAVA. I know you mentioned Peter Ansoff and Jack,
but is it more of a younger crowd or is
it kind of still just a little bit.

Speaker 3 (48:33):
Of Well, so I don't have any Nava's got like
a membership database, and with all that that, I don't
I don't have access to things like that. I just
have an email list that's our database. But we we
do have young members that mostly join on on zoom.

(48:53):
I think there is right, there is some So we've
had discussions about this. There is like some there is
that sort of barrier you know, of participation when it
comes to in person right when you're you're you're a
younger person. But but I would say just vexillology in general.
So NAVA CEBFA. You know, all all these other groups

(49:16):
out of out of all the groups I'm involved in
my everyday life outside of Vexillology, they're not doing as well.
You know. I think there's this crisis of of people
not joining membership organizations. But which one is not doing
as well? Sorry?

Speaker 2 (49:33):
Which one did you say is not doing as well well?

Speaker 3 (49:36):
Just I think just other regards in general outside of Vexillology.
I think, like in Vexology, like definitely NAVA is doing
all the right things, and so we have to take
like points from them and trying to figure out how
do we involve younger people and uh so we're we're adjusting,

(49:57):
and it takes time, and uh you know, hey, if
we can get one person that's a little bit younger
on a at a meeting or on a zoom call,
it's it's a win. So yeah, Vexillology is doing something right. Yeah, Yeah,
that's fair. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (50:14):
So I was gonna ask too about Well, let me
ask first about your flag. I have a question from
a listener that kind of kind of is related, but
I did want to ask. So obviously, as a flag association,
you have a flag of your own, would you mind
describing that both in design and in symbolism for us.

Speaker 3 (50:39):
Yeah, let me, I'm gonna just pull up because I'm
going to look at it while I'm describing it, because.

Speaker 2 (50:43):
You don't remember, no, I remember it. I just get.

Speaker 3 (50:49):
Yeah. So the so the chest Meeat Bay Flag Association
flag is the it's a field of a like a
light blue and it's got uh, it's modeled as through
the Washington d C. Flag, So it's got the two
dark stripes of blue. So it's obviously not the same colors,
but has that motif of Washington's family coat of arms

(51:15):
and that. But we added extra stars in a in
a V pattern at the top instead of the three
across it's a it's a V of five stars, so
the VB and obviously for vexillology, and then the stars
represent states of Delaware, Maryland, Pennsylvania, Virginia, and then West

(51:36):
West Virginia. I guess we include West Virginia to Frank
we probably only have like four people, but I'll take it.

Speaker 2 (51:43):
And then you said it's that it's that wide net
so wide.

Speaker 3 (51:49):
Yeah, so yeah, And I've I've heard other people describe
one of the stars being New Jersey, not West Virginia.
But it doesn't really matter. It's one of those things, right,
it's it's uh, it's emblematic of the of the area
in the region, that kind of thing. So and then
and then those blue colors is right for the for
the Chesapeake play chessbeak.

Speaker 2 (52:10):
And does this go back? Because like part of the
reason I'm asking too, is because the picture like on
the like landing page of the website has like what
I would say, a picture from the I don't know, eighties,
I would guess with some of the old timers, I
think Peter among them holding a different flag. So has

(52:31):
the flag been changed, so you know of.

Speaker 3 (52:35):
Not to my knowledge. So the other so the I'm
looking at as well as you are. Okay, the flag
that's in front, that's the flag of Pittsburgh, so it
is okay, and uh and I think this that picture
in general is actually a it was a joint meaning
between I want to say it was the Great Falls
Chapter or association.

Speaker 2 (52:56):
They're now defunct, Okay, yeah, because now that I yeah, okay.

Speaker 3 (53:01):
Yeah, yeah, but the Chesapeare Bay flag is there on
the in the I mean it's mostly obstructed.

Speaker 2 (53:07):
But yeah, I was looking at a I had scrolled
down far enough that I couldn't get back up to
see that. Okay, right on, Yeah, okay, yeah, there's I
don't know who created it actually, but I guess that's
another mystery I have to what's going to be Yeah, yeah,

(53:28):
a question I kind of related to that. As I mentioned,
I do have a listener question from Alex Knight zero
zero two on the discord, who said I'd like to
hear about whether the organization has ever thought about making
a coat of arms to represent itself. Do you know
if there's been any talk or or movement or anything

(53:52):
on that. I know you're more of a flag association.

Speaker 3 (53:54):
No, I've never heard of that, but obviously, like you know,
if someone wants to make a move arms for us,
that would be interesting. Yeah. I don't really know where
we would have the chance to actually like use it, sure, yeah,
but what we try to do at every meeting, just
like the picture on the website on the main landing,
is we always try to take a group picture at

(54:18):
least aways were in person, and if it's on zoom,
we take a picture of you know, all the you know,
people's faces, but we try to have a group picture
where we hold up the CBFA flag. So but yeah, yeah,
that would be interesting.

Speaker 2 (54:33):
Yeah. I suspect that Alex is asking because he's gone
through I think you're not on the discord, but he's
gone through just a I don't I don't want to
call it a phase because it's currently ongoing, but he's
doing a lot of coats of arms lately, whereas he
used to do a lot of like flag redesigns. I

(54:53):
guess he's kind of moved into that world a little bit.
And uh, probably wouldn't mind designing you guys. I don't
want to put work again.

Speaker 3 (55:03):
I don't know, I don't, I wouldn't know the use case,
but it could be interesting.

Speaker 2 (55:06):
Yeah, yeah, true. I mean, hell, I've got crushed off
designing one for me. I don't know, we're I'll use
that somewhere somewhere. It's a cool thing to have.

Speaker 3 (55:18):
Anyway, I could just make one more point.

Speaker 2 (55:20):
About yeah, anything else, because I'm going to pick through
my questions here.

Speaker 3 (55:25):
Yeah, I think that these regional groups, I think, I know.
I talked to Ted at NAV and I was like, hey,
you know, is there any of you know, interest in
NAVA helping like regional groups and everything? And uh, you know,
and his his sort of thing was, oh, well, there's
a lot of you know, zoom stuff, so that I know,

(55:46):
it's made easier for people to get together and things
like that, which is true. So NAVA as we know
is like the membership has gone skyrocketed and more and
more people are doing the monthly programs. But I think
there is a real, real need, especially as the naval
membership grows, to have those you know, informal in person

(56:09):
meetings in between the conferences because frankly, not everyone is
gonna want to go to one of the NAVI conferences
and and so it might be a little intimidated by it.
I don't think they should be, but it's one of
those things I think travel group would be really really
beneficial to you know, keeping them around in vexillology. And

(56:35):
that's just my opinion in it, you know, from someone
that you know for years from middle school all the way.
I guess till twenty twenty two was my first NAVI conference.
I guess that was Philly, No, maybe twenty twenty three,
but beyond that I'd never met, you know, anyone in person.

(56:57):
And then I started going to the CBFA meeting and
now I was like, hey, this is this is pretty cool.

Speaker 4 (57:02):
You know.

Speaker 3 (57:03):
Yeah, so it was less you were more, you were
less in a vacuum, more in part of like a
you know, a group. Even if you knew you were
like a part of a group, right, you had work
hard and whatever. You know, Actually meeting people in person
is just so powerful.

Speaker 2 (57:18):
And just like a low barrier to entry type thing.

Speaker 3 (57:21):
Yeah, yeah, for sure, definitely.

Speaker 2 (57:24):
Yeah, do you guys have any plans on or maybe
you already have done this, but like kind of like
joint sessions with NAVA because like you know how NAVA
has the the online meetings, like lord, every week they
have either a you know, a flag design one or
this one or that one or the other. Like, have

(57:45):
you guys talked with them about having like kind of
a not even like a meet and greet, but something
in that vein of like hey, this week's NAVA meeting
or this week there's a bonus NAVA meeting and it's
going to be on you know, say Thursday instead of Tuesday,
and it's going to be a joint session with the

(58:05):
CBFA where you can ask questions or you can talk
about you know, stuff like that. Yeah, raised the profile
a little bit.

Speaker 3 (58:14):
Yeah, so we've actually our last in person meeting was
in Maryland. It was actually hosted by Steve Constratus. So
he was so we we have our own Zoom uh
you know, uh subscription and things like that, so we
everyone's while we do like a low auction that basically
pays for whatever. So it's okay, cool news, but but

(58:38):
that was a bit of a side.

Speaker 1 (58:39):
Uh.

Speaker 3 (58:40):
What we are looking at doing in the near future
is uh Steve uh stan sorry brought up about the
Affiliates program and so that's like something that NAVA offers
for free to regional groups. Remember the next best to
the Zoom and some other some other things I think

(59:01):
like the membership database and things like that. So you know,
we just actually like, let's see, about two weeks ago,
we were emailing emailing Ted and talking about you know
what that entails on our part, on thats part, and
so so maybe in the near future once it we've

(59:21):
kind of looked at it, We've said internally, you know, hey,
this looks like a pretty good idea. There's not really
much downside. But what we're going to do is that
our next Zoom meeting in February. We're going to kind
of talk about it with the membership and if there's
sort of a consensus. You know, we don't really vote
on stuff, and just like hey, if that sounds good, yeah,
that'll how we go with it. So there might be

(59:41):
something like that in the near future, gotcha.

Speaker 2 (59:43):
And this will come out before So it looks like
your next meeting is Sunday, February twenty third, Yes, at
eleven am and all times are Eastern.

Speaker 3 (59:52):
I would assume yes Eastern. Yeah, okay, yeah.

Speaker 2 (59:55):
I think I might try and get in on that.
If that's cool.

Speaker 3 (59:59):
Of course, you can just email us and I'll answer
that email right on.

Speaker 2 (01:00:05):
Yeah cool. Yeah, I'm gonna try and be on that one.
So yeah, if any listeners or whatever would like to
also join, that'd be a good opportunity for us to
all get to see the CBFA in action. That'd be yeah,
And all you.

Speaker 3 (01:00:17):
Have to do is email us the CBFA mail at
gmail dot com and I'll put you down to be there.
If anyone wants to do vexy bits, we always welcome
anyone to do those. And then once the time comes,
you know, for the meeting. I sent out the zoom
link and you join. It's as simple as that, right, Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:00:41):
I am leaving myself a note to insert that into
the edit so that people can just see it up
on screen right now, CBFA mail at gmail dot com. Awesome,
And that is Sunday, February twenty third at eleven. Very cool. Yeah,
so I'll be there for that. I will email you
on our new ad break, which actually, let's go ahead

(01:01:03):
and get to I think that's probably that's probably good
on the CBFA for now. As mentioned, if you want
to know more, come to that meeting hang out with
both of us among a lot of other cool people,
I imagine. And yeah, Joseph and I will be back
in part three to talk some about the New Jersey

(01:01:23):
Civic Flag Project and just some really cool stories that
he's told me that I want to dig into. So yeah,
stick around, we'll be right back, all right, and we

(01:01:48):
are back more with Joseph Flatshaw here, who is going
to tell us all about the New Jersey Civic Flag Project.
But he's got a couple of stories that are kind
of kind of lead us there first, so take it away.

Speaker 3 (01:02:03):
Yeah. Yeah, So this New Jersey Civic Flag Project is
sort of started with that ocean kind of flag. But
in the beginning, when I talk about my favorite flag,
that's what kind of started this project. It was quite
innocent at the time, but really it's about telling the
the histories of these local flags that I think get

(01:02:26):
sort of missed and and the histories behind them. Why
you know who designed it when all those you know,
I think basic questions about flags, and but just to
drive home like how important I think some of the
stuff is, like it provides like a local story, usually

(01:02:48):
like a feel good kind of story. Things that I
think that we're missing now that that that we could
we can find if you if you dig enough, just
one one flag. I'll do two examples. But this is
the first one of Long Beach Island. That's actually so
it's not a it's not a town, it's not a

(01:03:09):
county or anything. It's just a it's one of the
barrier islands in Ocean County where I'm at. And so
they're they're kind of linked together, a lot of them culturally.
And so this this LBI flag is it's curricularly called
was created in nineteen sixty six by this twelve year

(01:03:30):
old Jeffrey Huber, And so I would drive onto the
island over the bay, and every once in a while
I'd see this flag of this goal bird and it
had you know, Long Beach Island on it, and it's
bisected horizontally. On top is white, on the bottom is

(01:03:50):
like a dark blue, And so I was kind of
wondering about that, right, like, you know, this is even
a weirder one because it's not had towent. It's tied
to like a you know a little bit of a
Bear Island region. And so it was actually created through
a contest, just like the Ocean County flag was right

(01:04:12):
by the Seroptimists International of Long Beach Islands, so you know,
the grip that empowers women to do a whole bunch
of things, they were behind this flag. And so even
to this day, they still sell that flag, and it's
actually available in some local shops on the island. And
it's the way I kind of think about it is

(01:04:35):
I think it's of all the flags that are in
Ocean County, I think this is the flag that you
see the most if you were to drive around, just
because people are really passionate about, you know, where they
live on the Bear Islands, and it's not just like
some of the towns. I mean, you know, listeners aren't
probably gonna know the towns, but there's a ship Bottom,

(01:04:55):
Beach Haven, barne get Light, all these other towns are
pretty small, but when they come together, they'll just say, hey,
where do you live? They'll say, oh, I live on
I live on LBI. And so they fly this flag
because there's a huge connection with with the island as
a whole, which is kind of nice. And so I've

(01:05:17):
also been seeing a new design that I have to
kind of figure out. I don't know where it came from.
I was just going to sing.

Speaker 2 (01:05:24):
Yeah, because CRW has has both.

Speaker 3 (01:05:28):
Yeah, and I don't really know some of the stuff
behind it, but maybe it just take a couple of
minutes of digging, maybe I'll find something. But but yeah,
so I guess there's maybe competition now, which is good though,
but people are flying it, which is good, which is good.
So yeah, you know that that's the ultimate goal, right.

(01:05:49):
The second story I want to talk about is uh
is fairly recent, within within probably about a month. This
is like pretty new flag. The borough of Point Pleasant
that's in Ocean County was just created, so for a
longest time they didn't have a flag, and so they

(01:06:10):
created this flag. It was by a sixth grader, Carlo Polino,
and so he he kind of I guess he's into flags.
You know. I actually sent him a letter, I believe
or not, you know, in the mail like, hey, since
you liked flags, he liked flags, you know, do you
want to join NAVA that kind of thing. And so

(01:06:32):
maybe he ends up being a NAVA member. We'll never know.
Maybe we know, but but we'll see this. This guy
he created flag, he drew it up and he presented
it to the to the council and and they adopted it.
So it's like just a nice feel good story. And
wait where is this so? So Borough Point Pleasant is
in Ocean County. It's in the northern past yeah, borough

(01:06:56):
of Point Pleasant. Yeah, And so it's interesting. It's really
just uh, it's a diagonally on top it blue, a
light blue and then a light green and then the
burrow seal in the in the center. So yeah, some
might call it to see on the bed sheet, but
I think, you know, like, and what what I've said

(01:07:19):
before is like I'm not so much about the seal
the bed sheet kind of stuff. If you know the
story behind it. I think you'd be more hesitant to
call it a seal in the bed sheet, you know, right,
like a sixth grader design that you can't really knock
that down, you know, it's it's uh so I think
it's a wonderful design. If if the people Point Pleasant
happy with it, then I am you know, so who

(01:07:41):
am I to Who am I to say?

Speaker 2 (01:07:42):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (01:07:43):
I know it takes sort of an extreme you know,
uh maybe stance on that, but that's where I'm at.

Speaker 2 (01:07:49):
Well, I was gonna ask like, if you like, have
you been to Point Pleasant and seen it flying, uh
you know in the wild.

Speaker 3 (01:07:57):
As they say, yeah, so it's literally so new that
they have to order flags. It's within yeah October last
year's like December. It got adopted in December.

Speaker 2 (01:08:07):
Oh okay, yeah a month ago.

Speaker 3 (01:08:11):
Yeah, it's like, you know, they still have to order flags.
But hopefully I'll be seeing it soon. But but all
of those those two stories in that Ocean County flag
from before, I think have have it puts like personal stories,
you know, into these flags, even if they don't meet
necessarily the design principles or whatever, there's a really neat

(01:08:35):
history behind it. And I think we're really missing that
on a lot of flags. So I you know, like
I said, I start with that Ocean County flag, right, Yeah,
you know, how many of the towns in my county
there's thirty three times in my county. How many of
them have a flag? So it's like roughly like I
think forty seventeen or something. Yeah, and so and then

(01:08:56):
I'm like, okay, that's that's interesting. Okay, but what about
like the basic question. You know, this was all very
innocent of myself, right, I was like, okay, I want
to know who created it when? And was it like
a contest? Was it you know, did someone just put
it together and said here you go? Was it like
an outside group like that s Optimists of LBI.

Speaker 2 (01:09:15):
Or was it a school thing like a lot of
times thing.

Speaker 3 (01:09:18):
Yeah, you know, finding that has been very challenging, only
because a lot of times it's like a very informal process.
But if you're able to find that stuff, that's a
gold mine, just because it really paints a really nice
picture of that flag. You know. The I keep saying
it the personal stories, but it's true because there is

(01:09:40):
always someone behind behind the flag that made it.

Speaker 2 (01:09:44):
Yeah, and I imagine like in your case, being in
New Jersey and being in Ocean County and like you
can personally contact some of these people. I mean it's
maybe this is a sixth grader, so maybe reach out
to the parents first, but like yeah, yeah, like for
obvious reasons. But like but like that's that's a an
angle that like I can't like ring up Benny Benson

(01:10:06):
and talk to him about Alaska's flag right now, and
I couldn't have at the time either, you know, Like
but yeah, you're you're local enough that you can like
get those personal stories that yeah. Yeah, then a lot
of people that are usually just kind of like tossed
to the wayside. It's usually like, all right, this is
the design Uh the designer was this person who worked

(01:10:26):
at a graphic design firm or whatever, you know, the
case may be. But you can actually afford to and
take the time to like dig in and that's yeah,
that's fascinating to me.

Speaker 3 (01:10:37):
Yeah, just because I'm like a historian, right, It's just
one of those things I'm just naturally attracted to knowing
the history behind it. And uh and because like you know, uh,
flags a road is great. You know, I'm not gonna
like that is awesome resource. But what it lacks is
is that you know, primary source kind of or at

(01:10:58):
least secondary sources of information of you know, I would
call it almost like vital statistics of the flag. You know,
you know, how do we know what we know about
the flag? So and it's one of those things where
it's so minor that people almost don't know about it,
even even within Like so what I did Ocean County,
I was like, Oh, how hard could the entire state be? Well,

(01:11:21):
it's twenty one counties, five hundred and sixty five municipalities.
Every single piece of land in New Jersey is is incorporated,
so there's there's a town everywhere. And so my gosh,
that's been like such a big hurdle. You know, even
within Ocean County, my home county, there's a lot of
it's hard to find just that information. So then going

(01:11:43):
outside of like the places that I know has been
really hard. And when you say research, I would say, yeah,
I would say it's like a lowercase are, not an
uppercase are because it's type of research.

Speaker 2 (01:11:59):
And got it. No, but but but that but I
mean still lowercase or upper case like that part of
it is fascinating to me doing actual field work, like
actually getting out and talking to people, because like that,
at least in our quote unquote field is a rarity,
I think, at least nowadays. Obviously there's like this spate

(01:12:26):
of like flag changes that are that are kind of happening.
It a more rapid clip than a lot of us
would have thought. But but those stories are mostly national
unless you dig down into unless you do what you're
doing basically and dig down into some of the smaller
like municipalities, counties, cities ones like that. So so I

(01:12:46):
guess like this was like perfect for you, Like you
love history and and have access to a lot of
resources thankfully due to what you do, and you love flags,
and you're like, all right, well, this is the perfect
storm of me being able to actually put names to faces,
like put you know, like uh, and get all that
information out there and online as well. Like, like you said,

(01:13:11):
Flags of the World is not typically and I agree
with you on this, not typically too robust. I guess
on what went into the design, like what the designer
was thinking, et cetera, et cetera, But this one on
what is the point pleasant is actually and and and
that's credit and this number of last year.

Speaker 3 (01:13:33):
That kind of goes into like my research process. So yeah,
I'm not the only person doing this, by the way.
I I I have to say, Dave Martucci, Don Heally
and and Dave Fowler, they've they you know, they're they're good,
They're probably better than me, and and and being on
point with all these things. I don't really know how
to do it. That's but when it comes to like

(01:13:55):
that discovery process and that research process, when I said
lowercase are right, it's it is like it's a desperate
type of like research. And when and when I say that,
what that means is I'm literally I've I've emailed every
single municipality. I had like a standard kind of form,

(01:14:15):
sure and uh and then when they didn't, when some
email back and I was like, oh great, great, and
then when some didn't, you know, I would literally just
cold call yeah you know yeah, and where I would
get someone who be like I'm like, okay, well, if
it's going to be anywhere, it's going to be like
in the council chamber or maybe out on the flag
pole like yeah, I don't know or you know. So

(01:14:37):
it's I mean, it really is like it takes like,
you know, a good amount and uh and the labor
of love. I think, like, yeah, yeah, and even if
you are able to know that there is a flag,
maybe get like a picture that's maybe like they didn't
they weren't able to lay it out flat, or you
get like these weird images and so you're really piecing
together a whole bunch of stuff. And uh so what

(01:15:01):
happens is the other thing is if if I can
try to find out when it was adopted or by
who or who designed it, that stuff is really hard
to come by. So I end up what I end
up doing a lot of times is contacting like a
local historical society. It's about finding the people that knew
the people kind of thing. Yeah, that is often difficult.

(01:15:23):
I also do a lot of Open Public Records Act
requests where I have to like file to say, hey,
hunt down this resolution, you know, them adopting the flag,
and it's but it's important, right. What I what I

(01:15:43):
hope people take from this is that it's not like
insurmountable to find the evidence. It's just it takes a
little bit of effort. It takes an email, it takes
a phone call, and then maybe some other dialogue with
some some people in the area, you know. So I'm
trying to do it for New Jersey. I'm hoping that
there's others that might be able to help. And there's

(01:16:05):
just one other aspect in the research that I didn't
really think of it in this way up until maybe
a year ago. I know, there's a lot of say
these videos on YouTube where they'll they'll examine like a
satellite photo of like say Russia, and like what they're doing,
and it's called like open source intelligence. Ah, and so

(01:16:26):
I didn't know I was doing the same thing for flag.
If you go on Google Maps, h you can often
find the town flags flying. You have to get like
the right angle, and you have to like go up
and down the street every little bit.

Speaker 2 (01:16:41):
Sometimes you have to go to a previous year.

Speaker 3 (01:16:43):
Previous years. Yeah, that too, And you can scour the
internet for stuff that's just out there. You just have
to look. If you look up like Google Photos, you
can look up usually like you know, oh so and
so Borough Council, if it's in their chamber, you can
usually tell, oh, yeah, they've they've got a flag. I
can't necessarily see what's on it. But then I can

(01:17:04):
go and contact them.

Speaker 2 (01:17:05):
Yeah. Yeah, and and.

Speaker 3 (01:17:07):
That's been a huge help in that not all the time,
some you know, but but for the most part, I've
found that it's also another avenue of finding out they've
got flags and then going to try to find the information.
But it just takes a it takes a while. But
it's just not fun. I have to admit. Sometimes it's

(01:17:27):
just like you got to take a break, you.

Speaker 2 (01:17:30):
Know, you got to realize what you're getting into.

Speaker 3 (01:17:32):
Sure, it's important.

Speaker 2 (01:17:34):
It's not necessarily for the casuals all the time, no, and.

Speaker 3 (01:17:38):
But but it's important. You know. I really hope that
people what they take away from this is maybe they
want to help with the project in New Jersey. I've
got my website, uh you know, NJ Civic Flag Project
dot com and uh so they can look at all
that on there, you know, what I've compiled, and uh,
but I hope they what they take away is that
that they can do that in their in their account,

(01:18:00):
in their town, in their in their state, you know,
and collect that information because it's important. It's it's it's
local history, it's it's stuff that I think the vexillological
community isn't necessarily I don't want to say like not
treated with respect, but maybe something that hasn't been like

(01:18:22):
on the radar, especially like he said, to have all
these state flag redesigns. Yeah, and uh, you know, as
these new flags come in, you know, the old flags
are just as important. We have to know, you know,
I think it's replaced, we have to understand the old
flag to understand why they made the new one, right,
And we can't necessarily do that if we don't know
the history behind the old one. So that that's kind

(01:18:45):
of that's why I'm doing it. That's why I've got
this website.

Speaker 2 (01:18:48):
And yeah, yeah, yeah, dude, I think that might be
the perfect place to end it, unless you've got anything else.

Speaker 3 (01:19:00):
I don't have anything off the top of my head,
but a real pleasure to be on the show, and too,
you know, have some listeners that I'll be interested in
this dude.

Speaker 2 (01:19:10):
This has been This has been a fantastic talk. Like
I would have I would have done this recorded or not,
and we did part of it not recorded, so you
know that's true. I guess. Yeah, So good a time
as any to go ahead and get into plugs. And
you just mentioned one, but let's re mention it again.

(01:19:33):
I will put it up on the screen here. But
for the New Jersey Civic Flag Project, what's the site
we can go to for that? Yeah?

Speaker 3 (01:19:42):
So the the website is if you have to, you
have to. It's sort of I have it in a
way that if you look up, you know, on Google,
or you just type it in, it's called NJ Civic
Flag Project dot com. And uh, it's just a small
set I made myself, and it's got a little bit

(01:20:04):
behind the project, the goal of it, the progress. And
then of course you can look at the the research
I've done so far and it's yeah, it's fractured, but
it research isn't pretty, uh you know, so so and
there's a way to contact me on there as well.

Speaker 2 (01:20:21):
So right right, awesome, Okay, Oh and I think okay, yeah,
I think I have. Is there any chance I've seen
some of these on Reddit.

Speaker 3 (01:20:31):
Or probably not? The only way it would probably have
read it is if someone had posted on Flags of
the World. You know, there there is times where maybe
people find it, yeah, you know, after I do, but
I'm still kind of working on It's not that I

(01:20:52):
don't there's there's things where like I'm I'm not necessarily
it might be a flags world, it might not, but
I'm gonna get down to the detail. So yeah, but
if I can also plug the CBFA website. You also
have a YouTube chant please, which is new. But yeah,
the CBFA website is CBFA dot Vexillology dot info and

(01:21:20):
so that's our website. And you can also look us
up on YouTube. We've got some past recordings of our
zoom meetings up. So if you just find yourself when
I listen to the Flag conversation, you can look up
Chesapeake Bay Flag Association on YouTube.

Speaker 2 (01:21:35):
Awesome. Yeah, And I will have those links on the
screen for the viewers and in the show notes drop
down for the listeners. Uh, all right, anything else to
plug on your end?

Speaker 3 (01:21:47):
Or that's all the plugs I have.

Speaker 2 (01:21:50):
I guess those are the the two big ones. I
guess mine. Then I guess if I have to, I'll
plug my show. You're already watching it or listening to it,
so you know where it is. But if you do
want to interact with the show in a way that
isn't either of those two things, you can go to
linktree dot com slash flagged for content all spelled out

(01:22:14):
and find our links to everything, including links to apply
to be a guest or you know, asked to be
a guest. There's not like a lengthy application process, or
join the patreon, join the discord server, which I said,
you know a few of the questions come from and
there's just always a good discussion going on in there.

(01:22:35):
But yeah, anything with an AD sign. We are at
flagged four content for like the number, and that does
include blue Sky. I think that is pretty much it.
And yeah, I think it's time to close down the show.
But I must have like ripped out the page where

(01:22:56):
I wrote my show closing notes. So Joseph, do you
have anything that you can kind of close us out
with here?

Speaker 3 (01:23:06):
Thanks for listening, everybody.

Speaker 2 (01:23:09):
Thanks for listening everybody. We will catch all on the
fly side and join us over on the Patreon for
a little bit more. Wink take it. Flag for Content
is proud to be sponsored by Flags for Good. Go

(01:23:29):
to Flagsforgod dot com for more information.