March 3, 2025 • 60 mins
This week, it's all about the Flag of the Fens! And who better to explain to us just who (or what) the Fens are than the flag's creator himself, James Bowman. James and I have a great chat about the history of the area, its fascinating people and landscape, what inspired the flag, and why it's so important. Plus, merchandising opportunities!
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
We've got.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
And a few mug matters. You might even get to
standards and what they're represented to just tick my voices
hand all try to understand this logic podcast because the
facto con flag food cont.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
What's up? Back, sads and welcome to episode sixty seven
of Flagged for Content. It's the only podcast that always
keeps its promises. It's also a Flags for Good podcast,
and you can head on over to flagsfo Good dot
com slash flag for Content for like the number and
(00:49):
get yourself some of their They've got a lot of
cool new flags. Some of them are political, but some
are inherently non political, like I don't know Greenland and
am Mexico. Hell, they've got our show flag as well
if you want to get that one. In any case,
when you do check out, use code flagged four content
(01:11):
for like the number again and you can get yourself
a sweet ten percent off and help the show out
as well. So thanks as always, two Flags for Good.
I think there's very little admin we need to do.
At the top of this one, head over to our
Instagram where we've got a new well, we've got a
(01:34):
winner for our Fresh Flags competition, which is a game
that you all should be playing if you're not currently,
that's as always at flagged for content for the number.
You wouldn't believe it, but it is, and check that out.
So anyway, I wanted to get into So, yeah, I
had James Bowman on this week. He was an amazing guest,
(01:55):
such a cool chat, very easy to talk to, very
like you can tell that he told me he wasn't
a huge XD but it's easily brought out of anyone.
I think he definitely has a clear passion for this flag,
which I think we can all appreciate. And yeah, I
(02:17):
first heard about his flag via kristof Hook, common frequent guest,
especially if you're on the Patreon. I just called the
flag of the fens Or. I think even then it
had a different name, and I didn't quite know what
to make of it. So I had put it on
a you know, one of those tier ranking things. I
think as a BEE. I could be wrong. It'll probably
(02:41):
come up in the episode. In fact, I'm sure it does.
And yeah, they had posted it on their social media
and said like, hey, you know this American podcast has
talked about our flag, and they gave it a I
think they said middle rating. And I was like, I
don't know, I thought a be was pretty high, but
I guess who whatever. Anyway, a lot of talking later,
(03:02):
a lot of you know, scheduling kind of honing in,
and we finally I finally got a chance to sit
down with James and really kind of just like get
into this thing, and we get straight into it. So yeah,
nothing else. I know, I've already taken way too much
of your time, So let's go ahead and get into
(03:22):
this episode with James Bowman Flag of the Fens. Folks,
we have yet another VEX World luminary today. You know
him as a writer, you know him as a translator,
and you know him as the designer of the flag
for the Fins. It's James Boom.
Speaker 3 (03:46):
Hi, and do you thank you very much for having
me on.
Speaker 1 (03:49):
Thanks for coming on, James. This has been a long
time in the making. I know I messaged you a
while ago and we've been you know, sort of in
contact since, But yeah, I appreciate fine getting you on
the show.
Speaker 3 (04:01):
Well that's kind of you. Well, I think I think
I should say that I know a lot less about
flags than some of your recent guests, but I'll I'll
do my very best to cover over the cracks.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
And that is totally fine. A lot of people that
listen to this are learning as they go as well,
so you know, not a problem at all. But so
all right, So James, you are in, as we kind
of teased at the top, the Fenlands, which is part
of what East Anglia.
Speaker 3 (04:29):
Most of it is in East Anglia, some of it's
also in the East Midlands. It's an area of former
marshland now drained. That's in well, it's four it cuts
across four different counties of England.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
Oh wow, okay, very cool, very cool. What's it has
it been like weather wise? Over there? People love the
weather talk, so I want to make sure and give
that to them.
Speaker 3 (04:53):
Well, today it was raining until about three o'clock and
then the sun came out and it was suddenly a
blue sky and really nice. So it's quite common that
we get more than one season in a day here,
and that's what we had today.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
Fair enough, fair enough, all right, cool. Yeah, I'm super
excited to get more into this fen stuff. I am
just nervous to get into too much of it before
we actually get into the show, So I may cut
the small section or the small talk part short here
and give the listeners a preview of what's on the
(05:25):
flagpole today, because we'll definitely get into the Finland stuff.
And here's what's on the flagpole today. We have got
our usual over and underrated flags. We will go through
the whole history of the flag for the Fins. Who
are they, where are they, why do they need a flag,
et cetera. But before we get into any of that, James,
(05:48):
I like to ask my guests right off top, what's
the flag that kind of got you into flags?
Speaker 3 (05:55):
Well, I've always liked flags without necessarily knowing a huge
amount about them, and I particularly like the flag of Norway.
I'm not quite sure why, but it's always been my favorite. Yeah.
I suppose it's got a bold design. I think I
like the combination of red, white and blue, which seems
to be quite common in flags. Yeah, and I've probably
(06:17):
seen some really good photos of it with very attractive
Norwegian backdrops as well. But I would say that that's
my favorite.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
Yeah, Yeah, so that that was my I think I've
talked about it here as well as talk to you
a little bit off air about it, but that was
the first flag that I owned. It was, you know,
a little desk flag, like a little stick waiver kind
of thing, but the first one I owned, and I
think that and studying my atlas is what got me
(06:46):
into flags. Yeah, but yeah, there's something about that red,
white and blue. I like the Danish flag, but I
love the fact that the Norwegian one dembriates the way
with Yeah, and to me, that just kind of like
ties it all together in a more cohesive way.
Speaker 3 (07:05):
I think, well, you can make comparisons because there were
so many of those of those Nordic cross flags, aren't they,
So you can really you can really compare them with
each other. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:16):
Yeah, you can compare them not only with each other,
but with like past historical ones, like all right, so
this was the Norwegian you know navel Oh I've seen
those yeah or whatever. Yeah, with like the Herring salad
and everything. Yeah, kind of mixed between the Swedish and Norwegian.
I did that in my very first episode. We talked
about those, but there's something about them. Like again, in
(07:36):
that first episode, I was talking about the Herring Herring salad,
which is, like we said, the kind of diagonally quartered
Norwegian one, and I was like, this flag is ridiculous.
I swear though like five months later I bought it.
Speaker 3 (07:52):
It's funny because I think, isn't it The flag of
Iceland is inverts the colors of the flag of Norway.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
Yeah, I mean more or less? Yeah er, yeah, yeah, I.
Speaker 3 (08:02):
Mean and somehow the Norwegian want to my eyes just
work so much better. I can't say why.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
I think so too. It's like the majority red on
it is something that I really dig.
Speaker 3 (08:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
Yeah, I guess people listeners and watchers of the show
won't be surprised that I like a lot of red
on a flag. There's something about it. But yeah, anyway, yeah,
now that Norwegian flag is special. It's it's been a
lot of our kind of a lot of beckshead's first intro,
first foray in two flags, and it's it's fun to
(08:37):
see when that's when I'm not alone.
Speaker 3 (08:39):
You know. Well, I'm glad. I'm glad that I'm not
alone as well.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
Right, exactly, all right, So let's get into all right,
we've got a couple. We've got a quote unquote over
and underrated flags. I don't know if you would yes
necessarily use those words, but I will let you start
with either one that you want, so we'll move into
a second.
Speaker 3 (09:01):
Yeah, I feel a bit. I feel a little bit
awkward saying this because in a way it's the flag
of my own country. But I think that the flag
of England sometimes it looks very plain, it's very white,
and it's it looks quite good against the blue sky,
you know, it's flying on top of a church tower
(09:21):
against a blue sky. It looks good. But as a
visitors to the country will know, the sky isn't always
blue here, and when there's a white sky, as there
often is, and you have a white flag against a
white sky, it doesn't always look that wonderful. Yeah, And
it's become more and more common as well, because I
think of the growing identity of nations within the UK.
(09:45):
You see far more flags of Wales, Scotland and England
than ever before. And sometimes I like the look a bit,
but sometimes I just think it needs a bit of
something extra to bring it, to bring it to life,
especially if the sk eye is gray or white. And
so that brings me onto a flag that may not
be familiar to a lot of people, which is the
(10:06):
flag of East Anglia, which I see that you've got
right behind you there, your own version of it as
I have, but I'm not going to try and I'll
probably fall over if I try and get that out.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
Now.
Speaker 3 (10:17):
We can notes too, for sure, but I've got one too.
And I just think that the addition of the three
gold crowns against the blue defacing, if that's the right word,
the cross Saint George. I just think I think that
that that creates a really attractive and striking flag. And
it's quite an old flag as well. It's more than
(10:38):
a century old.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
I figured. I know, east Anglia is one of the
god I don't even know the words to put a
lot of the like English county stuff in, but is
it a ceremonial as well as.
Speaker 3 (10:52):
Actual government, Like east Anglia isn't actually a county, it's
just a region. It was it was one of the yes,
well it was one of the kingdoms of the English heptarchy.
There was a period in our history when there were
seven different Anglo Saxon kingdoms in England, and East Anglia
was one of them. Mercier was another one, and Kent
and Sussex and Wessex which is a famous one, and
(11:15):
east Anglia was one of those. The and so people
who are from north the counties of Norfolk and Suffolk
and Cambridgeshire are basically in what was the Kingdom of
East Anglia, right, and there is a you know, there
is the term East Anglia is quite often used. And
that flag that you've got behind you was actually designed
(11:36):
for the London Society of East Anglian, so people living
in London. This is at the end of the nineteenth century,
early twentieth century, people living in London who came from
this part of the country where I am now, I'm
in Ely in Cambridgeshire, and they decided to create a
club for themselves and that flag was designed for them.
And you see it, I mean you see it in
(11:59):
all sorts of different places. It's not really really common,
but it's it's it's fairly familiar, sure, yeah. And that
the three crowns are actually that there're a reference to
the Fingers dynasty, which was the dynasty of kings in
East Anglio with Swedish origin, and that's why it's the
same as the small Arms of Sweden.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
Right, Okay, yeah, now that I'm now that I'm seeing
it even you know, in in mirrored view behind me,
my camera could readjust but yeah, no, I totally understand that.
So which one predates the other? Does the Cross of
Saint George, I mean, I guess like did the English
(12:43):
flag in its current sense cross of Saint George red
on white predate this or the other way around.
Speaker 3 (12:50):
But I mean that the flag of England is very
very old, and and as as I'm sure you know
and everybody seeing this nose, the UNI flag is just
a combination of the of the flags of England and
Scotland with then a later edition of the Saint Patrick's
Cross for Ireland. That's what that's what makes up the
Union flag. So that the flag of England is is
(13:12):
very old. The reason why with the East Anglian flag
they didn't just have the three crowns against a blue field,
which they could have done, is that there was already
a flag like that, which is the flag of Munster
in Ireland. So they decided that rather than just have
the same flag as Munster, which would not be such
a good idea, they would put the put the blue
(13:34):
shield against the Saint George's flag. Otherwise you wouldn't actually
need the Saint George's flag to represent East Anglia at all.
But they needed to differentiate it from that other flag.
Speaker 1 (13:44):
Okay, yeah, no, that makes total sense. I know we
didn't even really plan on talking about this up top,
But do you have any thoughts since it's similar to
those two, do you have any thoughts on the flag
of the City of London, which is basically Saint George's Cross.
I'm sure you know what it looks like, but for
the listeners, basically a Saint George's Cross, but in canton
(14:04):
like top left, it's got a I don't know what
kind of sword, but it has a sword of Yeah.
Speaker 3 (14:11):
Well, the trouble with that is, and I have seen
it when I've been I've been in the City of London.
The trouble is that from any distance you can't you
can't see that little sword thing. I was one. And
also the diocesan flags of England. England is split into
into various seas, you know, run by different bishops of
the Church of England. I mean, I'm I'm in the
(14:32):
Sea of Ely here the Diocese of Ely, and this
is a Diocese of Peterborough, the Diocese of Norwich and
all that and that. Because they're all dioceses of the
Church of England, they also have you know a flag
of England with something incredibly tiny in the canton that
you can see all those all those flags are kind
of not you can't really differentiate them or tell what
(14:52):
they are.
Speaker 1 (14:53):
It's like we want to stay first and foremost there
were English. Secondly, this is the thing that distinguishes, you know,
in some way, in some region way or local way.
Speaker 3 (15:04):
Yeah, as long as you're not more than ten foot away. Yes, sure, totally.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
No, that is a good Yeah. I have not really
dug into that so much. I as you and I
talked about off air or really just via text and
on Instagram. I have recently gotten Jason Sabers book about
the county flags of England, Scotland and Wales, and on
chatting with him about that. But yes, it's a very
interesting read and touches on some of the things that
(15:33):
we've talked about.
Speaker 3 (15:33):
Although yeah, that's the very first book on its subject.
Actually it's a really good book.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
Yeah, it's it's been very thorough so far. I confess
that I'm not super far into it. I was going
to try and read the whole thing before our chat,
but then I I scheduled Jason for an upcoming episode
and I was like, you know what, I may want
to read it closer to time, like closer to that. Yeah,
So I'm like, as a result, I'm about a third
of the way through and I'm going to put a
(16:01):
brief pause on it if I can, because it's fascinating.
So it's hard to like put a pause on a
book that you're you know, wrapped attention has. But yeah,
all right, well perfect, I think that's good for part A. Here,
we will go ahead and move into a break and
(16:21):
when we come back for the listeners' viewers, I was
going to say et cetera, but those are pretty much
the two categories. We are going to really really dig
into this flag for the fens. And if you don't
know what that means yet, you're about to, so stick around.
We'll be right back.
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Speaker 1 (18:19):
All right, Vack Said's we are back a lot more
here with James Bowman, who is the designer and promoter
of the Flag for the Fens. But before we get
into the flag for the Fens itself. I think it
behooves us to know a little bit about what, slash
who the Fens are in the first place, and no
(18:40):
one better than someone that lives there, so give us
the rundown of who and what that is.
Speaker 3 (18:47):
Well. The Fens is quite a large area in eastern England,
covering parts of Cambridgeshire and Norfolk and Suffolk and Lincolnshire.
And it's an area that was all marchland until it
was drained in the seventeenth century. So there were there
were little islands of dry land, little clay hills often
(19:08):
dotted around this area of marsh and people who lived
there spent their lives weaving baskets from reeds and shooting
wildfowl and that sort of thing. It was a very
thinly populated area, and then in the seventeenth century, with
the help of Dutch engineers, it was drained, much as
(19:29):
large parts of Holland have been, and there were you know,
dikes and drains to keep the water off the land.
And it's completely flat apart from a few ridges here
and there, so it's it's a man made landscape. And
because the soil is almost black, it's Pete soil. It's
it's the best, it's the best arable land in the country.
(19:52):
It's quite it's quite valuable for food production.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
Sure, okay, all right, So and you said it spans
like what how many counties, like war five.
Speaker 3 (20:01):
Well, it depends how you count the counties. That's another
complicated yes, another complicated story. It covers Most people would
think of it as being a large part of Cambridgeshire,
quite a lot of southern Lincolnshire, a relatively large part
of West Norfolk, and a much smaller part of Suffolk.
But if you're looking at historic counties, it also includes
(20:23):
small parts of Huntingdonshire, which has been sort of gobbled
up by Cambridge are now administratively, and a very small
part of Northamptonshire because the area north of Peterborough used
to be well it's in the historic shouldn't say used
to be I'll annoy people. It's in the historic county
of Northamptonshire, but it's no longer in the it's no
(20:43):
longer so administratively, so it cuts across quite a few
different counties in the east of the country.
Speaker 1 (20:49):
Interesting. Yeah, So, and that's like, well, I don't know
about like English standards versus US standards. But is that
like fairly close to London, like slightly? I guess north
northeast of London. I guess I'll put it this way.
If I were to ask an average Londoner if they
knew of the Fenlands or the Fens, would they know
(21:13):
what I was talking about?
Speaker 3 (21:15):
I think if I think if they were people who
were born in this country and grew up here, yes
they probably, yes, they would.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
They'd have heard of it, Okay, Okay, yeah, even if
they don't know the exact like, it's in the same
way as right they have?
Speaker 3 (21:29):
They have they have, they'd have heard of they'd have
heard of, you know, x more, and they'd have heard
of the Peak district, but they might not know exactly
where they all.
Speaker 1 (21:37):
Are, right right, yeah, and we'll we'll dig into x
more peak districts. Black Country, I dare say, uh, in
a little bit. But okay, so that's the Fenlands or
is it more commonly called the Fence.
Speaker 3 (21:52):
It's more commonly called the Fens, but it can be
called the Fenlands as well.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
Okay, gotcha. That's how it was introduced to me. I
guess almost a year ago at this point by Khrushtov Hook,
who is a check besilographer and does a lot of
heraldry work as well, but he was part of the
reason that listener viewer. Part of the reason that James
and I are talking now is because I did a
(22:16):
tier list of English county flags, et cetera, and I
had the Black Country flag, the x More flag were
kind of defaults in there, but the flag of the
Fens wasn't at the time. It may be now, and
Krishtov told me, make sure and include that one in
your rankings, like in your list. Oh, I've never seen
(22:36):
this flag before, Like literally the day that I did
those rankings was the first time I'd ever seen the
flag or heard of the flag in fact, and so
I didn't quite know. I guess I went in with
some kind of base knowledge of a lot of the
other county flags, and like X Moore and Black Country,
you know, some of those that are a little more
out there, But I came in with zero knowledge of
(22:58):
this flag. And yeah, I think I've ranked it A B.
I can't remember. I think it's s A, B, C
D F. I think I ranked it a B because
I remember on your Instagram page. You said that the
flag made like a middle tier, which I guess would
have N, B and C out of those options. Yeah,
(23:20):
and and yeah, we chatted some since then, but well
that's we got.
Speaker 3 (23:24):
Into I didn't know it was Christoph actually who alerted
you to the flag. I didn't realize that because I
have corresponded with him and with Elis Grand Christ as
well when they added it to the Flags of the
World website, because it's on there as well, right right,
And I chatted with it, and I've chatted with I've
chatted with with both of those a little bit over
(23:46):
the years, both of those men. But then after because
I'm always on the lookout for fodder for the Facebook page,
you know, I saw that you've done this. I thought, right,
I'll take a screenshot of this and stick it on
the Facebook page. And the feedback there was some back,
and people say, why is it only why is it
only in Grade B or Grade C or whatever?
Speaker 1 (24:03):
It was. No, I know, yeah, and I.
Speaker 3 (24:05):
Think you saw that, and then you and and then
you got in touch with me on Instagram, and I
think that was the story.
Speaker 1 (24:11):
That was pretty much exactly it. I was like, without
stating the caveat that it was the first time I'd
ever seen it. I was I was like, hey, look,
I'm I'm happy to you know, kind of take a
relook at the and a lot of times you do
those tier lists or you know, as a quote unquote
flag influencer or whatever, you do those tier lists, but
(24:33):
if you were asked to redo it, you probably would
not put everything in exactly the same place that you
had before. Like it's tough to like, I don't know,
opinions change their fluid, even within like a person. So
I think I jokingly said like, hey, you know, if
you want to move it up higher on the list,
come on the show with me, which, as I said,
was tongue in cheek, although with the new colors, I
(24:57):
think I probably would move it higher up on the list.
So anyway, Okay, So that's where the Finlands are, And
that's a brief aside from me our listeners are used
to just me rambling, but from what I understand, like
the people that live there are also not primarily but
called Fens or are they Finlanders or fens or.
Speaker 3 (25:20):
They're not called fens. That's that's the name of the
the area. That's the name of the physical area that
people who live in the Fens. They can be called Finlanders,
they can be called fenmen. They're often called fenmen, but
that's obviously, you know, a male thing, and you can't
really say Fenn women. You can say fenmen. People often
say fen boys and Fenn girls as well. Fenn folk
(25:43):
is a sort of collective thing that you sometimes see.
I think my favorite term is would be Finlanders because
it's you know, you can be male or female.
Speaker 6 (25:51):
It's more bride like, yeah, yeah, and it's it's kind
of more neutral, makes sense, all right, But especially when
people are being sort of being a bit joe or
wanting to speak in a more affectionate way, they'll describe
themselves or somebody else as a.
Speaker 3 (26:05):
Fenboy or a Fen girl, even if they're you know,
quite old.
Speaker 1 (26:09):
Gotcha, gotcha, somebody does something you're like a classic fenboy, gotcha?
All right? Yeah, all that said, all right, we've got
a feel for the people on the land. Walk us
through the flag because a lot of people listen to
the show instead of watching it. Give us a brief
rundown on well, yeah, just the design of it.
Speaker 3 (26:32):
Well, the design is very simple, really, I mean, the
the overall style is the Canadian pale style, and the
outer fields are blue, which represents the natural waterways. There
are a few big rivers going through the area, and
also the man made waterways because all the dikes and
drains as they're called, all the drainage channels that keep
(26:55):
the water off the land are you know, a big
part of the landscape, especially of their embankments on either
side of them and roads running along them and along
the embankments and so forth. So the blue is for
man made and natural waterways. The yellow represents agricultural prosperity
because it's the best arable land in the UK. And
(27:19):
then in the middle of the yellow field you've got
the tiger. And the tiger comes from a term that
was applied to the local population at the time of
the drainage which I was talking about, because the local
people they really didn't want all these outsiders who had
sort of bought into a company with the promise of
having a piece of land each didn't want them to
(27:42):
go ahead and drain the fence. They wanted to carry on,
you know, fishing for eels and weaving baskets and chooting
wildfowl from punts and stuff like that. They wanted to
carry on their lifestyle and they didn't want they didn't
want the whole face of the land to be changed,
and they actually opposed the drainage and try to sabotage it.
And either the Dutch or the English engineers who were
(28:05):
working to drain the land said that they were behaving
like tigers because they were so aggressive, and that's the origin.
That's the origin. But then I always have to say
after I've said that, because people say, well, that sounds
a bit nafty and aggressive. I always have to say
afterwards that in the centuries following that, Fenn Tiger just
became a general nickname for people from the area, without
(28:28):
any kind of reference to whether they are in favor
of drainage or not. It just became a sort of
It just became a sort of moniker for people in
the area. And I suppose it also represented the fact
that people were quite independent and resourceful, quite proud. I
suppose that those sorts of things. So the meaning of
it morphed over time, and now it's used in the
(28:50):
names of lots of clubs and sports associations and athletes
and things.
Speaker 1 (28:56):
Right, because I was going to ask about that, because
like I can picture that here in like what's more
my base of knowledge. Obviously here in the in the States,
I could see there being like a sports team from
there being the Tigers for pretty much that reason exactly.
And yeah, that's pretty much what you're speaking to. So,
(29:17):
so the people aren't necessarily referred to as Fens, but
they are Fenn Tigers.
Speaker 3 (29:23):
Yeah, the people that are referred to as as I
don't know, Fenman or Finlanders or Fenbreg or whatever, and
and and some some people. For example, there was a
boxer called Dave Boy Green who was a welterweight I think,
and he was a world champion and the European champion.
He was he had the nickname. He's still alive, actually
lives in Chatter, it's not far from here. He had
(29:43):
the nickname the Fenn Tiger. And other people have been okay,
Ben Tigers.
Speaker 1 (29:47):
You know, right, So it's a well and well enough
known thing.
Speaker 3 (29:54):
Yeah, I mean, it was the obvious. It was the
obvious thing to use on a flag to represent the area. Really,
there wasn't too much, wasn't It wasn't too much doubt
in my mind about that.
Speaker 1 (30:02):
Yeah, yeah, Okay, So yeah, so all right, so we've
gone over the people, we've gone over the design. I
guess like I might honestly be a backtrack from the design.
But what made you think or what made you kind
of come up with the idea that the Fenlands or
the Fens needed a flag of its own rather than
(30:25):
just the corresponding county flags that kind of cover the
same area. But you know, broken up.
Speaker 3 (30:33):
Well, I think I think I sort of realized, as
a lot of people have in the last you know,
decade or two, that in Britain we've got more and
more subnational flags. I mean, when I was a boy
in the seventies and the eighties, you only really saw
the Union Jack, you know, as a flag that people
(30:54):
could fly in their front gardens or something, or from
public buildings. But now you see the flag of England.
We've talked about obviously the flags of Wales and Scotland,
but you also see more other subnational flags. I mean,
we've got these county flags every county in England, not
yet Wales in Scotland, but every county in England has
a flag. Some of them are quite well used, other
(31:15):
ones that others are quite rare, some regions have a flag,
and also some towns and cities have a flag, and
some of them are quite recent and some of them
are a little bit older. But this was obviously a
growing trend, these subnational flags, and I thought, and I
noticed in particular that the one in the Black Country,
(31:36):
which was only adopted in twenty twelve, had really taken off.
And that's the one yes behind your right shoulder there,
which I think is a very handsome flag myself, and
that one, I really was aware of how that had
been taken to the hearts of people who lived in
that area, which is an area, a collection of towns
(31:57):
west of Birmingham, which has always been called the Black Country,
which has for a long time.
Speaker 1 (32:02):
Gotcha, and that.
Speaker 3 (32:04):
Flag, you know, inspired me to think that maybe the
Fends should have a flag as well, because it's a
very it's quite a unique area, not just the topography
but also the culture, and people identify with the fence
quite strongly. If you're if you're driving into the area
from somewhere else, you immediately realize when you when you
when you've got in, because it looks different from where
(32:25):
you've been before, and you know, there are some traditions
and crafts and what have you. So I just thought,
because people have such a strong identification with the area,
maybe as they do in the Black Country too, which
I which I which I knew, maybe maybe a flag
could could work. But at the same time, there wouldn't
(32:45):
be any sort of public body that could instigate this.
Speaker 1 (32:50):
Next question.
Speaker 3 (32:51):
Yeah, so I'll let you ask you.
Speaker 1 (32:55):
No, No, I mean I mean basically, yeah, as you said,
it spread across different counties, different like local governances and
everything else like that. So like it is, I know
you're trying to get it registered with the Flag Institute,
and that has been, like you know, kind of a
long process, as I think it always is. But yeah,
that lack of like a local authority like have you
(33:17):
done kind of like more of like a bottom up approach.
Speaker 3 (33:20):
I guess that's exactly what That's exactly what I decided
to do at the outset. I mean, I designed the
flag in twenty sixteen, and I set up I started camp.
I started the campaign for it in twenty eighteen, I
think it was September. I set up the Facebook page
and basically I'd stamp the thing out of the ground.
Sure because I could see that there wasn't any point
(33:43):
approaching anybody about it. Nobody could do a consultation, nobody
could could sort of just say, you know, we'll release
our coat of arms and that can be the flag.
Because there wasn't one, it spread across different counties and
forms of local government. I thought, well, you know, I'll
design one and see if people like it. And I
must say, we've been doing this for six getting on
(34:05):
for six and a half years now. The response has
been incredibly you know, heartwarming, really very positive, and lots
of people have got involved. So so yes, I don't
see another way that it could have happened. Really well,
it makes seem a bit odd that it's just you know,
one person's idea.
Speaker 1 (34:23):
No, I I mean, especially in your case, I definitely
agree with that model. I've talked to a few other
flag designers, one of them being Bradley God. I'm forgetting
his last name, but.
Speaker 3 (34:36):
Brad Grady L's is that right?
Speaker 1 (34:42):
Well, I don't know that person.
Speaker 3 (34:43):
I'm sorry now, sorry, I might.
Speaker 1 (34:46):
I might, but Bradley God, it's gonna kill me. I'll
answert it in post. Here's just me talking uh No,
but Bradley from uh he's from Bellingham, Washington, which like
a smaller town that's like a little bit north of Seattle.
And he took the same approach as you, printing stickers,
(35:07):
printing little desk flags, little decals that you like you
can put in like windows of places that say like
you know, made in the fens or something in your
case or whatever that really get the public to kind
of look at that and being like, oh, I didn't
know we had a flag as well. We don't technically,
but you know, we're trying to gain support for it
(35:30):
and everything. I think that's like in your case and
in his case, I think that's the ideal approach. Yeah,
I couldn't imagine doing it a different way. And from
looking at your Instagram alone, I mean, shoot, you've got
one here. Okay, it's Birmingham. It looks like it's in
like Belgium or something. But like you've got so many
(35:52):
like I guess like a lot of navigator or like
not navigators, like a bunch of people that have boats
have taken this up because I see a lot of
penance on here.
Speaker 3 (36:00):
Yeah, it is, there's a there's a there's a big
thing in Britain. I suppose as a whole, but especially
in this area of people having narrow boats and going
along in the canals and the rivers, and of course
there's so many waterways around here.
Speaker 1 (36:15):
I was going to say, in your area, yep, the.
Speaker 3 (36:17):
Flag has really been adopted by by people with either
cruisers or narrow boats, and that they and of course
they like flying flags anyway. I mean it always looks
jolly and cheerful on boats. Flags on boats is a
good combination. And and so so there's a there's a
couple the company that tends to make most of the
flags that people buy. They sell me those pennants for
(36:41):
a special price, and I then pass them on to
somebody who runs the tourist crews here where I live,
and they sell them on for the same price. So
I just cover my costs, right, And they've just they've
just they've just been really popular. Yes, and they do
those pennants. They do look quite nice. I've got one
here actually, Unfortunately the yellow is a little bit a
little bit too, right, But that's what that's what they
(37:02):
look like.
Speaker 1 (37:03):
Oh, yeah, that looks fantastic for for listeners. We'll have
that in a show notes as well. But yeah, I've
seen so many, like I mean, so many of your
posts are not just the flag, like in a kind
of what we would call a three by five because
we use imperial measurements. Yeah yeah, but so many of
(37:25):
them on your page are stickers, both in like the
aspect of the flag or just in a circle or
a penant. Got tons of other stuff, but like definitely
getting the word out for sure.
Speaker 3 (37:38):
I mean the thing that the thing that I mean,
people have made all sorts of things. I mean, companies
may make merchandise commercially all sorts of items of clothing
and bags and what have you. But people have also
just as individuals that have made things like shields. I mean,
there's a shields in an officer's mess, you know, you know,
in an army officers mess somewhere. Three people have made tattoos,
(38:02):
which is, you know, quite an impressive commitment I actually posted.
I mean, that's that's that's that's quite something, and it's.
Speaker 1 (38:11):
Commitment to a flag that's not adopted yet. But I
mean that that also tells you, like that they honestly
don't care if it's adopted or not. They are personally
adopting that as a design that they want to put
on their body forever, which I think is one of
the highest compliments you can get really as far as that, Yeah,
(38:33):
some people don't.
Speaker 3 (38:34):
Some people don't care about the registration. They just they've
just decided they like it. You know, they're very attached
to their area and they want to fight and that's that.
That's the end of the story for them. Yeah, I
definitely understand that. Yeah, I mean for some people. For
some other people, they probably think, well, you know, it
would be better if it could be adopted, And for
(38:55):
the people running the campaign myself especially, it's it's definitely
an important goal. But yes, I mean a lot of people.
Speaker 1 (39:02):
Just wouldn't care, right Yeah, yeah, including this.
Speaker 3 (39:06):
You wouldn't know about it, wouldn't even know about that question.
Speaker 1 (39:09):
Yeah, for sure. It's oh man, I'm even seeing it
on like dog leads and or like collars and stuff.
Speaker 3 (39:17):
Yea. The big surprise for me was these dog bandanas,
because I got some bananas made again with the same
model of getting them, getting them made for a special price,
and then then setting them on for the same amount
of money to people. And I thought the idea was
that people would have bandanas for their heads or their necks,
but it suddenly turned to everybody wanted them for their dogs.
(39:38):
And I've got about forty or fifty photos of different
bandanas on people's dogs, And it would never have occurred
to me that people would want that, but they did.
Speaker 1 (39:47):
It is very cute and it spreads the word like
a dog wearing that is going to be infinitely cuter
than you know, like me or you wearing that. Anyway, Well,
it's going to get that out there pretty further, I
think a lot further. Yeah, no, for sure, I've got
a couple more questions on this. I think it might
(40:08):
be good to take one more short break and kind
of get into those last questions. I think we have
like one listener question, maybe two as well. And yeah,
well we'll go ahead and catch y'all after the break.
See then, all right, Beck SAIDs we are back last
(40:40):
part here with James Bowman from the Flag of the Fens,
and I've only got a few questions left. First one
being so you talked about part of the impetus for
really designing this flag in the first place was because
you saw other regions start to do similar things, and
(41:01):
you specifically mentioned the Black Country was a big kind
of I don't know progenitor for all of this. Do
you know anyone like in the Black Country or who
helped design that flag, design that flag that got kind
of like a foot in the door for you on
this one, or was it more solo.
Speaker 3 (41:23):
It was so low I don't know anybody who was
involved in that. That whole process was finished by twenty twelve.
There was a museum there that ran a competition in
the Black Country Living Museum, and the winner was an
eleven year old school girl. That's her design that you've
got behind you. So no, I don't have any contact
with anybody there at all, or in Exmore or Wessex,
(41:45):
or or in the places where there are other regional flags, right.
Speaker 1 (41:48):
Right, Yeah, I was gonna say, yeah, I know that's
not the only one, but it's the one like kind
of sighted in and you're like abstracts and everything for
bring it up to the Flag Institute, et cetera. But okay,
so right, all right, like absent that absent, like knowing
anyone who helped design the Black Country flag, the x
(42:08):
More flag, et cetera, the other ones you mentioned, and
and you having said that you're not hugely a flag
guy like you know you definitely have an interest obviously,
but how do you all Right, here's the way I'll
put it, Like, I don't think somebody who's not into
flags comes up with this flag for the Fens on accident,
(42:31):
Like it's very like, it follows rules, it has a
Canadian pale, which is something not a lot of people
even know is a thing. How does somebody go from
not being a flag guy to designing something that's pretty
much perfectly in line with vex exxillo logic standards.
Speaker 3 (42:52):
Well, I'm I'm glad you think that's all of it.
But I think when you're designing a flag, you start
for the place that you were designing it for and
what the symbols are, what the relevant colors are. I mean,
I've had other I've had plenty of ideas for other
flags that nobody's sort of asked me to design and
nobody would ever want. But just out of just out
(43:13):
of out of idleness, I suppose other flags and I
enjoyed the process. I did read the guidelines on flag design,
which I think are on the website of the Flag
Institute and probably in other places as well, where they
talk about, you know, avoiding words and only having three
colors or so making it simple something a child could draw.
(43:35):
That's a common phrase that people use. So I was
aware of all those guidelines or principles, and but you know,
the colors and the tiger itself that just came from
that just came from the area that I wanted to represent.
Speaker 1 (43:52):
Right, Yeah, No, So how many like kind of off
of that point, how many iterations did this flag go
through before what we're seeing now?
Speaker 3 (44:04):
Well? I did, I did. I did experiment with different colors.
The Originally the outer fields were black, which were supposed
to represent the pet soil. But then I realized that
But then I realized that not not all, not the
whole area has black soil. I mean there there are
other parts of the fens that have brown soils or
(44:25):
even white whitish soils with a bit of chalk in. Well,
that won't work. And I even experimented with the idea
of having Cambridge blue, which is a very light blue
green color which represents Cambridge University, because Cambridge is kind
of on the edge of the fens, and I thought
maybe that that would be something interesting and something that
(44:47):
that people would would identify with. And I also experimented.
I mean my original artwork, I wanted the tiger to
be orange, you know, like the real color of a tiger,
or kind of browny ocre color, and that's how I
first threw it, and that wouldn't work against the yellow background.
So I had a white background. I've got that here,
and so yeah, it did go through different it did
(45:08):
go through different phases. But the thing I realized is
you can't really have an orange tiger on a yellow
background because it's not differentiated enough.
Speaker 1 (45:17):
Right, right, right, Okay, so yeah, you're not realized.
Speaker 3 (45:20):
That heraldic animals, heraldic rampant tigers and lions are often
red anyway.
Speaker 1 (45:26):
Yeah, so make it red, right right, No, that's fascinating.
So like you're yeah, you're starting from my word is
not yours, but like knowing next a little about this
having the the black on the fly, in the hoist,
in the Canadian pail and then having to kind of
(45:46):
like recalculate for Okay, that doesn't represent everybody. What does
represent everybody is the blue because those are the like
dams and dykes and canals and everything else that you mentioned.
So basically starting with a broad design and like honing honing,
honing in on it until you get something that represents
(46:08):
the region as a whole instead of like a part
of that region, which is huge because I want everyone
in the region to fly it and and and have
it on a sticker, you know, et cetera.
Speaker 3 (46:17):
Yeah, yeah, I wanted to make it simple, very easy
to explain. I wanted it to have a sort of
balance to it. I mean, the type the rampant tiger
fits in that space quite well because it's sort of
sitting in a square really And yeah, and I didn't
I didn't want any I didn't want any references that
(46:40):
some people would like and other people wouldn't like. So
that's that's that's what I that's what I came up with.
And once I realized that the tiger probably shouldn't be orange,
I think I was kind of most of the way there.
Speaker 1 (46:54):
Yeah, no, yeah, tiger, the red definitely fits better. Yeah, Like,
I'm looking at them now and I know most of them,
but just to refresh my memory, I need a map here.
And I cannot think of any flag that the flag
for the fans would be confused with, Like you have
other ones with similar colors but not in the same pattern.
(47:16):
I don't think of a single one that has a
Canadian pale anywhere in the British Isles that I can tell. No.
Speaker 3 (47:25):
I mean, of course it is, that is quite common internationally.
I mean there are quite a lot of national flags
like that, and also some subnational flags that are like that.
But no, you're right, I think in the in the UK,
I can't. I can't think of another one, and I
can't think of a flag that looks a lot like it.
(47:46):
I mean, some people, some people said, oh, that looks
a little bit like the Scottish flag, and what they
meant by that was the Royal banner of scotl Lion. Yeah, yeah,
because and that's that's on a yellow background, but the
line is much smaller because it's got this sort of
threat in this frame with the Fleur de lys.
Speaker 1 (48:01):
Yeah yeah, but I mean, yeah.
Speaker 3 (48:04):
There's that's another red rampant, big cat. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (48:08):
But there's as far as I can tell, no other
one that has a Canadian pail or could ever be
confused for it, which obviously in our world, is a
good thing. It's probably a good time to kind of
start winding down. And you had mentioned you've made so
much stuff for this penance stickers, probably stuff I don't
even know. Do you want to give us like almost
(48:30):
a part of the plugs? Do you want to give
us like a brief rundown of like some of the
second U.
Speaker 3 (48:35):
I can show you a sorry to interrupt you, I
can show you a few things, but most of it
is made on a commercial basis by companies that don't
don't that. I don't have any direct connection with things
like hoodies and and T shirts and bags and what
have you, So I don't have all that, but I
do have I do have some things here, I should say,
but I don't make any puppet out of any of this.
(48:56):
I only sell things on for the price that I
pay for them. And then, as I say, there were
the comthing is that just sell stuff themselves, including on Amazon.
I mean people make patches and sell them on Amazon.
They didn't even ask because they just did it, which
is fine because it's a flag for everybody to use.
But I do have a I do have a few
things on the table next to me.
Speaker 1 (49:13):
I'm curious to see them, to be honest, like I've
seen them in the abstract, like on Instagram and stuff
like that.
Speaker 3 (49:20):
Oh I've got I've got key rings here. Okay, I
had the tigers the right way up and their gun
metal or silver they're available in Then.
Speaker 1 (49:38):
Okay, we've got the baseball. It's got the flag on
the front. We've got this flag. I'm going to need
one of those at some point as well.
Speaker 3 (49:52):
These are nice that they've got the colors just right
on these ones.
Speaker 1 (49:55):
Right. Yeah, I'm gonna say, I know they've gone through
a change, as I.
Speaker 3 (49:59):
Say, it's only a a small amount. Then we've got
this nettube thing so I can actually relieve your viewers
of the face for a second.
Speaker 1 (50:08):
I think in the US we call them gator. I
can't remember.
Speaker 3 (50:11):
G A. T. E. R Oh will tell you what
they're called here snoods snoods, Yeah, I don't know. So
you can use that in all sorts of different ways.
You can cover your head or you can cover your neck,
and you do different things with that. You know.
Speaker 1 (50:27):
That's the picture I'm going to use for the thumbnail.
Speaker 3 (50:30):
Right. Fortunately, I have no no physical vanity, So you
do what you do, what you like. This is one
of us. That's what this is.
Speaker 1 (50:40):
This is then flag work sausages.
Speaker 3 (50:45):
Because yeah, sausages. Yeah, you can read it.
Speaker 1 (50:47):
So it's that's like the wrapper that goes around them.
Speaker 3 (50:50):
Yeah, he's a he's a. Well, it's a it's a.
It's a. It's a family business. They're farm butchers. Do
they farm and they do their own butchery? How can
they sell the cuts of meat and sodges and what
have you? And these are the sausages they make named
after the flag, and they sell them in their shop
and they delivered them as well, and so people all
around the area are buying these. Buying these sausages is awesome.
Speaker 1 (51:15):
Yeah, like local ingredients, the local flag in two places. Yes,
I saw right, it's got one, yeah, smaller one on
the back.
Speaker 3 (51:22):
I guess, yes, it's got it has Apparently they're quite
they're quite good. They're quite good sellers, these these sausages.
Oh yes, well I've got a three pack, so that
was good. And then the last thing, the last thing
I have to show you is this map. That's a
map of the that's a map of the fence the ogon.
Speaker 1 (51:41):
This is very cool and I actually.
Speaker 3 (51:44):
Commissioned this myself because I realized there wasn't a commercially
available map of the area. There were maps of East
Anglia and maps of Southern England and this that and
the other maps of counties, but there wasn't a map
of the fence as the region. But there is a
defined area. There's a there's a national body called Natural
England and they have defined the boundaries of the fens
(52:08):
and of all sorts of other areas, the wolds and
the you know, the Peak District and all sorts of things,
and they've they've defined it. So I took their their definition,
their territorial definition of the fence, and commissioned this map
from a company in Oxfordshire. And I've been I mean,
people can have the PDF a bit or that. I've
(52:30):
also given away three copies of this paper one and
I've got my own framed.
Speaker 1 (52:37):
I was gonna say, if you don't mind putting the
giving me the PDF, I could put in the show
notes or something if anybody court.
Speaker 3 (52:42):
Yeah, I mean, it's it's it's I've really got a
lot of pleasure from this because a lot of people
have said to me, oh, and it's really nice to
have a map of the whole area. I've never seen
this before. Of course I use it to plug the
flag as well, but it's it's it's if you like flags,
you probably like maps.
Speaker 1 (52:56):
I was just going to say a lot of us
that are into flags got into them via maps or
you know, vice versa or whatever. But like, yeah, yeah, those.
Speaker 3 (53:06):
Are my bits and bobs. But as I say, there's
a well, there's a shop. There's a shop in Whittlesey,
which is in the sort of west central part of
the Fens near Peterburg. They do just everything you could imagine.
You know, pin Badger is just anything cool cool.
Speaker 1 (53:20):
So we got options. You got options, yeah, not just
for products but for suppliers too. It sounds like your
bottom up approach has really made waves.
Speaker 3 (53:32):
Like well, there are three different companies that makes the
make the flags. I mean you've had Charles Ashburner on
his company missed a flag, they made them. His sister
Joe Ashburner, she's got a flag maker as well, also
in Swansea called Red Dragon appropriately and they make them.
And then the ones that I always recommend to made
by a company called Flying Colors in Yorkshire. But there's
(53:55):
a company on Jersey, you know, in the Channel Islands
that makes them. And there's another one another one as well,
I can't remember the name of it. So there are
different companies that make them. But again, the whole point
is I think of it like the Cornish flag or
the Black Country flag. It's a community flag. Anybody can
use it, anybody can make stuff. They didn't have to
ask me. I certainly don't. I certainly didn't make any
(54:15):
money out of it. It's just out there.
Speaker 1 (54:17):
Yeah. I think the best flags are usually made that way.
Brad Lockhart, whose last name I finally remember just now,
who was the one I was talking about that did
a similar bottom up approach, like same thing, like he
was handing out stickers for free handing out this. You know,
just get the word out, get the visual out, and
(54:37):
everything about it, and honestly, like tracks very very closely
to what you're doing. Because I think he even said
that he had that flag on products like I don't
know if they were necessarily sausages, but like you know,
it's it's near Seattle, so like coffee cups, things like that.
Speaker 3 (54:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (54:56):
I think they had it all over to the point
where like it's happening around you. Uh, people pick it
up and they're like, oh, what's this? Oh this represents
me and where I live? Okay, cool, I'm much more
inclined to get this now, or hell I want one
on my own, you know, whatever the case may be.
But yeah, no, it's a very good approach and I'm
(55:17):
excited to buy some of that merge. I've got to
get a flag too. I'll probably get it from mister flag.
Knowing me that's where I got. I think both of
these behind me here and a lot of my UK
county ones, which not important, but I think I have
more UK county flags than US state flags, and a
lot of that is chopped up to the fact that
(55:38):
our state flags are lagging behind in design things. If
we had somebody like you in every state there was like, hey,
the state flag should or politely suggest that the state
flag should be this.
Speaker 3 (55:54):
Well, I there, I've seen that there have been some
competitions that the states.
Speaker 1 (56:00):
Yeah, so it's definitely growing. People are becoming more conscious
of it. There's the typical pushback, but you're going to
have that everywhere, I think, and it's along like kind
of political lines in our case anyway over here. Yeah,
but yeah, you know, you do what you can. You
get it out there. The people that like it like it,
(56:20):
and they spread it far and wide. So yeah, I
think that's probably a good place to wrap it up.
We did a few plugs already speaking of yeah, the
merch and everything, But do you have any kind of
other plugs or any like website People can go to
any anything they can read, look up on this, anything
(56:41):
at all that you want to plug.
Speaker 3 (56:43):
Well. The social media are Facebook and Instagram, also X
or Twitter, but that seems to be sort of that's
more difficult now, Yeah, because I have because I haven't
paid for the premium because I don't really want to
do that. No, I don't. I don't feel it's right
somehow that for me to sort of pay to get
(57:04):
attention on a platform like that. So I haven't done that.
So the Twitter thing is or the X thing has
slightly died away. The main things. The main things are Facebook, Instagram.
I'm also on threads, which just tends to replicate what's
on Instagram, and and and and the big the biggest
of all is Facebook. I mean that's the Facebook is
(57:26):
a real joy for me in promoting this flag.
Speaker 1 (57:29):
Right right, And we don't have so much respond We
don't have to live in the Fens or the fen
Lands to join the Facebook group or anything. No, Okay,
we just have to be enthusiasts.
Speaker 3 (57:41):
And there are there are people who have who have
varying antecedents in the US in Australia who are followers
and they regularly respond posts with likes and comments and things.
Is that the US and Australia are the two main places, right? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (57:58):
I guess makes sense, all right? So yeah, so if
we search anywhere on social media for Flag of the
Fins and that is f e n S. My southern
accent sometimes makes that sound like f i in ns fins,
but don't get a twist. It is f e n S.
Search for that on all social media and you will
(58:20):
find their accounts. And not only will you find their accounts,
you'll find, as previously mentioned, a ton of people flying
it in various circumstances, stickers, et cetera, et cetera. And
you can kind of go from there. But yeah, if
you're happy with that, I'll get some of my plugs
out of the way, which are brief. If you have
(58:40):
gotten this far in the show, you probably know where
to find us. But if not, we have a link
tree which is just linktree dot com, slash flagged for
content all spelled out fo R the four and that
will take you to all of our links. And I
usually kind of like skim over this, but some of
the links on there are pretty important for folks to
(59:03):
go to. Like if you want to talk with us,
go on the discord. There are one hundred plus people
in there. You can chat with all of us. If
you want a little bit of bonus content, the Patreon
link is on there. You get extra bonus episodes things
like that. So anyway, I want, I want bore James anymore.
But I think that's pretty much it for my plugs.
(59:27):
And yeah, I think with that we will go ahead
and close it out. James. Any last words.
Speaker 3 (59:33):
Here, I can't think of any except that I'm very
grateful to you for having me on after the list
of illustrious people that you've had. I'm very very honored
and it's been a real joy to talk to you.
Speaker 1 (59:46):
Oh, the joy and the honor is all mine. And
that's honor just with an O R. Because it's America
over here. Anyway, James, thank you so much for coming on.
This has been a lovely chat. Hopefully we'll chat soon
and for those of you who are watching listening, we
will catch you on the fly side.
Speaker 3 (01:00:07):
Thank you, thanks very much, thank you.
Speaker 1 (01:00:12):
All Right, we got it, We got it.
Speaker 3 (01:00:16):
I'm sitting in my pitch black house with this spotlights.
Speaker 1 (01:00:26):
Flag for Content is proud to be sponsored by Flags
for Good. Go to Flags for Good dot com for
more information.
We've got.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
And a few mug matters. You might even get to
standards and what they're represented to just tick my voices
hand all try to understand this logic podcast because the
facto con flag food cont.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
What's up? Back, sads and welcome to episode sixty seven
of Flagged for Content. It's the only podcast that always
keeps its promises. It's also a Flags for Good podcast,
and you can head on over to flagsfo Good dot
com slash flag for Content for like the number and
(00:49):
get yourself some of their They've got a lot of
cool new flags. Some of them are political, but some
are inherently non political, like I don't know Greenland and
am Mexico. Hell, they've got our show flag as well
if you want to get that one. In any case,
when you do check out, use code flagged four content
(01:11):
for like the number again and you can get yourself
a sweet ten percent off and help the show out
as well. So thanks as always, two Flags for Good.
I think there's very little admin we need to do.
At the top of this one, head over to our
Instagram where we've got a new well, we've got a
(01:34):
winner for our Fresh Flags competition, which is a game
that you all should be playing if you're not currently,
that's as always at flagged for content for the number.
You wouldn't believe it, but it is, and check that out.
So anyway, I wanted to get into So, yeah, I
had James Bowman on this week. He was an amazing guest,
(01:55):
such a cool chat, very easy to talk to, very
like you can tell that he told me he wasn't
a huge XD but it's easily brought out of anyone.
I think he definitely has a clear passion for this flag,
which I think we can all appreciate. And yeah, I
(02:17):
first heard about his flag via kristof Hook, common frequent guest,
especially if you're on the Patreon. I just called the
flag of the fens Or. I think even then it
had a different name, and I didn't quite know what
to make of it. So I had put it on
a you know, one of those tier ranking things. I
think as a BEE. I could be wrong. It'll probably
(02:41):
come up in the episode. In fact, I'm sure it does.
And yeah, they had posted it on their social media
and said like, hey, you know this American podcast has
talked about our flag, and they gave it a I
think they said middle rating. And I was like, I
don't know, I thought a be was pretty high, but
I guess who whatever. Anyway, a lot of talking later,
(03:02):
a lot of you know, scheduling kind of honing in,
and we finally I finally got a chance to sit
down with James and really kind of just like get
into this thing, and we get straight into it. So yeah,
nothing else. I know, I've already taken way too much
of your time, So let's go ahead and get into
(03:22):
this episode with James Bowman Flag of the Fens. Folks,
we have yet another VEX World luminary today. You know
him as a writer, you know him as a translator,
and you know him as the designer of the flag
for the Fins. It's James Boom.
Speaker 3 (03:46):
Hi, and do you thank you very much for having
me on.
Speaker 1 (03:49):
Thanks for coming on, James. This has been a long
time in the making. I know I messaged you a
while ago and we've been you know, sort of in
contact since, But yeah, I appreciate fine getting you on
the show.
Speaker 3 (04:01):
Well that's kind of you. Well, I think I think
I should say that I know a lot less about
flags than some of your recent guests, but I'll I'll
do my very best to cover over the cracks.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
And that is totally fine. A lot of people that
listen to this are learning as they go as well,
so you know, not a problem at all. But so
all right, So James, you are in, as we kind
of teased at the top, the Fenlands, which is part
of what East Anglia.
Speaker 3 (04:29):
Most of it is in East Anglia, some of it's
also in the East Midlands. It's an area of former
marshland now drained. That's in well, it's four it cuts
across four different counties of England.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
Oh wow, okay, very cool, very cool. What's it has
it been like weather wise? Over there? People love the
weather talk, so I want to make sure and give
that to them.
Speaker 3 (04:53):
Well, today it was raining until about three o'clock and
then the sun came out and it was suddenly a
blue sky and really nice. So it's quite common that
we get more than one season in a day here,
and that's what we had today.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
Fair enough, fair enough, all right, cool. Yeah, I'm super
excited to get more into this fen stuff. I am
just nervous to get into too much of it before
we actually get into the show, So I may cut
the small section or the small talk part short here
and give the listeners a preview of what's on the
(05:25):
flagpole today, because we'll definitely get into the Finland stuff.
And here's what's on the flagpole today. We have got
our usual over and underrated flags. We will go through
the whole history of the flag for the Fins. Who
are they, where are they, why do they need a flag,
et cetera. But before we get into any of that, James,
(05:48):
I like to ask my guests right off top, what's
the flag that kind of got you into flags?
Speaker 3 (05:55):
Well, I've always liked flags without necessarily knowing a huge
amount about them, and I particularly like the flag of Norway.
I'm not quite sure why, but it's always been my favorite. Yeah.
I suppose it's got a bold design. I think I
like the combination of red, white and blue, which seems
to be quite common in flags. Yeah, and I've probably
(06:17):
seen some really good photos of it with very attractive
Norwegian backdrops as well. But I would say that that's
my favorite.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
Yeah, Yeah, so that that was my I think I've
talked about it here as well as talk to you
a little bit off air about it, but that was
the first flag that I owned. It was, you know,
a little desk flag, like a little stick waiver kind
of thing, but the first one I owned, and I
think that and studying my atlas is what got me
(06:46):
into flags. Yeah, but yeah, there's something about that red,
white and blue. I like the Danish flag, but I
love the fact that the Norwegian one dembriates the way
with Yeah, and to me, that just kind of like
ties it all together in a more cohesive way.
Speaker 3 (07:05):
I think, well, you can make comparisons because there were
so many of those of those Nordic cross flags, aren't they,
So you can really you can really compare them with
each other. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:16):
Yeah, you can compare them not only with each other,
but with like past historical ones, like all right, so
this was the Norwegian you know navel Oh I've seen
those yeah or whatever. Yeah, with like the Herring salad
and everything. Yeah, kind of mixed between the Swedish and Norwegian.
I did that in my very first episode. We talked
about those, but there's something about them. Like again, in
(07:36):
that first episode, I was talking about the Herring Herring salad,
which is, like we said, the kind of diagonally quartered
Norwegian one, and I was like, this flag is ridiculous.
I swear though like five months later I bought it.
Speaker 3 (07:52):
It's funny because I think, isn't it The flag of
Iceland is inverts the colors of the flag of Norway.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
Yeah, I mean more or less? Yeah er, yeah, yeah, I.
Speaker 3 (08:02):
Mean and somehow the Norwegian want to my eyes just
work so much better. I can't say why.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
I think so too. It's like the majority red on
it is something that I really dig.
Speaker 3 (08:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
Yeah, I guess people listeners and watchers of the show
won't be surprised that I like a lot of red
on a flag. There's something about it. But yeah, anyway, yeah,
now that Norwegian flag is special. It's it's been a
lot of our kind of a lot of beckshead's first intro,
first foray in two flags, and it's it's fun to
(08:37):
see when that's when I'm not alone.
Speaker 3 (08:39):
You know. Well, I'm glad. I'm glad that I'm not
alone as well.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
Right, exactly, all right, So let's get into all right,
we've got a couple. We've got a quote unquote over
and underrated flags. I don't know if you would yes
necessarily use those words, but I will let you start
with either one that you want, so we'll move into
a second.
Speaker 3 (09:01):
Yeah, I feel a bit. I feel a little bit
awkward saying this because in a way it's the flag
of my own country. But I think that the flag
of England sometimes it looks very plain, it's very white,
and it's it looks quite good against the blue sky,
you know, it's flying on top of a church tower
(09:21):
against a blue sky. It looks good. But as a
visitors to the country will know, the sky isn't always
blue here, and when there's a white sky, as there
often is, and you have a white flag against a
white sky, it doesn't always look that wonderful. Yeah, And
it's become more and more common as well, because I
think of the growing identity of nations within the UK.
(09:45):
You see far more flags of Wales, Scotland and England
than ever before. And sometimes I like the look a bit,
but sometimes I just think it needs a bit of
something extra to bring it, to bring it to life,
especially if the sk eye is gray or white. And
so that brings me onto a flag that may not
be familiar to a lot of people, which is the
(10:06):
flag of East Anglia, which I see that you've got
right behind you there, your own version of it as
I have, but I'm not going to try and I'll
probably fall over if I try and get that out.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
Now.
Speaker 3 (10:17):
We can notes too, for sure, but I've got one too.
And I just think that the addition of the three
gold crowns against the blue defacing, if that's the right word,
the cross Saint George. I just think I think that
that that creates a really attractive and striking flag. And
it's quite an old flag as well. It's more than
(10:38):
a century old.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
I figured. I know, east Anglia is one of the
god I don't even know the words to put a
lot of the like English county stuff in, but is
it a ceremonial as well as.
Speaker 3 (10:52):
Actual government, Like east Anglia isn't actually a county, it's
just a region. It was it was one of the yes,
well it was one of the kingdoms of the English heptarchy.
There was a period in our history when there were
seven different Anglo Saxon kingdoms in England, and East Anglia
was one of them. Mercier was another one, and Kent
and Sussex and Wessex which is a famous one, and
(11:15):
east Anglia was one of those. The and so people
who are from north the counties of Norfolk and Suffolk
and Cambridgeshire are basically in what was the Kingdom of
East Anglia, right, and there is a you know, there
is the term East Anglia is quite often used. And
that flag that you've got behind you was actually designed
(11:36):
for the London Society of East Anglian, so people living
in London. This is at the end of the nineteenth century,
early twentieth century, people living in London who came from
this part of the country where I am now, I'm
in Ely in Cambridgeshire, and they decided to create a
club for themselves and that flag was designed for them.
And you see it, I mean you see it in
(11:59):
all sorts of different places. It's not really really common,
but it's it's it's fairly familiar, sure, yeah. And that
the three crowns are actually that there're a reference to
the Fingers dynasty, which was the dynasty of kings in
East Anglio with Swedish origin, and that's why it's the
same as the small Arms of Sweden.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
Right, Okay, yeah, now that I'm now that I'm seeing
it even you know, in in mirrored view behind me,
my camera could readjust but yeah, no, I totally understand that.
So which one predates the other? Does the Cross of
Saint George, I mean, I guess like did the English
(12:43):
flag in its current sense cross of Saint George red
on white predate this or the other way around.
Speaker 3 (12:50):
But I mean that the flag of England is very
very old, and and as as I'm sure you know
and everybody seeing this nose, the UNI flag is just
a combination of the of the flags of England and
Scotland with then a later edition of the Saint Patrick's
Cross for Ireland. That's what that's what makes up the
Union flag. So that the flag of England is is
(13:12):
very old. The reason why with the East Anglian flag
they didn't just have the three crowns against a blue field,
which they could have done, is that there was already
a flag like that, which is the flag of Munster
in Ireland. So they decided that rather than just have
the same flag as Munster, which would not be such
a good idea, they would put the put the blue
(13:34):
shield against the Saint George's flag. Otherwise you wouldn't actually
need the Saint George's flag to represent East Anglia at all.
But they needed to differentiate it from that other flag.
Speaker 1 (13:44):
Okay, yeah, no, that makes total sense. I know we
didn't even really plan on talking about this up top,
But do you have any thoughts since it's similar to
those two, do you have any thoughts on the flag
of the City of London, which is basically Saint George's Cross.
I'm sure you know what it looks like, but for
the listeners, basically a Saint George's Cross, but in canton
(14:04):
like top left, it's got a I don't know what
kind of sword, but it has a sword of Yeah.
Speaker 3 (14:11):
Well, the trouble with that is, and I have seen
it when I've been I've been in the City of London.
The trouble is that from any distance you can't you
can't see that little sword thing. I was one. And
also the diocesan flags of England. England is split into
into various seas, you know, run by different bishops of
the Church of England. I mean, I'm I'm in the
(14:32):
Sea of Ely here the Diocese of Ely, and this
is a Diocese of Peterborough, the Diocese of Norwich and
all that and that. Because they're all dioceses of the
Church of England, they also have you know a flag
of England with something incredibly tiny in the canton that
you can see all those all those flags are kind
of not you can't really differentiate them or tell what
(14:52):
they are.
Speaker 1 (14:53):
It's like we want to stay first and foremost there
were English. Secondly, this is the thing that distinguishes, you know,
in some way, in some region way or local way.
Speaker 3 (15:04):
Yeah, as long as you're not more than ten foot away. Yes, sure, totally.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
No, that is a good Yeah. I have not really
dug into that so much. I as you and I
talked about off air or really just via text and
on Instagram. I have recently gotten Jason Sabers book about
the county flags of England, Scotland and Wales, and on
chatting with him about that. But yes, it's a very
interesting read and touches on some of the things that
(15:33):
we've talked about.
Speaker 3 (15:33):
Although yeah, that's the very first book on its subject.
Actually it's a really good book.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
Yeah, it's it's been very thorough so far. I confess
that I'm not super far into it. I was going
to try and read the whole thing before our chat,
but then I I scheduled Jason for an upcoming episode
and I was like, you know what, I may want
to read it closer to time, like closer to that. Yeah,
So I'm like, as a result, I'm about a third
of the way through and I'm going to put a
(16:01):
brief pause on it if I can, because it's fascinating.
So it's hard to like put a pause on a
book that you're you know, wrapped attention has. But yeah,
all right, well perfect, I think that's good for part A. Here,
we will go ahead and move into a break and
(16:21):
when we come back for the listeners' viewers, I was
going to say et cetera, but those are pretty much
the two categories. We are going to really really dig
into this flag for the fens. And if you don't
know what that means yet, you're about to, so stick around.
We'll be right back.
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Speaker 1 (18:19):
All right, Vack Said's we are back a lot more
here with James Bowman, who is the designer and promoter
of the Flag for the Fens. But before we get
into the flag for the Fens itself. I think it
behooves us to know a little bit about what, slash
who the Fens are in the first place, and no
(18:40):
one better than someone that lives there, so give us
the rundown of who and what that is.
Speaker 3 (18:47):
Well. The Fens is quite a large area in eastern England,
covering parts of Cambridgeshire and Norfolk and Suffolk and Lincolnshire.
And it's an area that was all marchland until it
was drained in the seventeenth century. So there were there
were little islands of dry land, little clay hills often
(19:08):
dotted around this area of marsh and people who lived
there spent their lives weaving baskets from reeds and shooting
wildfowl and that sort of thing. It was a very
thinly populated area, and then in the seventeenth century, with
the help of Dutch engineers, it was drained, much as
(19:29):
large parts of Holland have been, and there were you know,
dikes and drains to keep the water off the land.
And it's completely flat apart from a few ridges here
and there, so it's it's a man made landscape. And
because the soil is almost black, it's Pete soil. It's
it's the best, it's the best arable land in the country.
(19:52):
It's quite it's quite valuable for food production.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
Sure, okay, all right, So and you said it spans
like what how many counties, like war five.
Speaker 3 (20:01):
Well, it depends how you count the counties. That's another
complicated yes, another complicated story. It covers Most people would
think of it as being a large part of Cambridgeshire,
quite a lot of southern Lincolnshire, a relatively large part
of West Norfolk, and a much smaller part of Suffolk.
But if you're looking at historic counties, it also includes
(20:23):
small parts of Huntingdonshire, which has been sort of gobbled
up by Cambridge are now administratively, and a very small
part of Northamptonshire because the area north of Peterborough used
to be well it's in the historic shouldn't say used
to be I'll annoy people. It's in the historic county
of Northamptonshire, but it's no longer in the it's no
(20:43):
longer so administratively, so it cuts across quite a few
different counties in the east of the country.
Speaker 1 (20:49):
Interesting. Yeah, So, and that's like, well, I don't know
about like English standards versus US standards. But is that
like fairly close to London, like slightly? I guess north
northeast of London. I guess I'll put it this way.
If I were to ask an average Londoner if they
knew of the Fenlands or the Fens, would they know
(21:13):
what I was talking about?
Speaker 3 (21:15):
I think if I think if they were people who
were born in this country and grew up here, yes
they probably, yes, they would.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
They'd have heard of it, Okay, Okay, yeah, even if
they don't know the exact like, it's in the same
way as right they have?
Speaker 3 (21:29):
They have they have, they'd have heard of they'd have
heard of, you know, x more, and they'd have heard
of the Peak district, but they might not know exactly
where they all.
Speaker 1 (21:37):
Are, right right, yeah, and we'll we'll dig into x
more peak districts. Black Country, I dare say, uh, in
a little bit. But okay, so that's the Fenlands or
is it more commonly called the Fence.
Speaker 3 (21:52):
It's more commonly called the Fens, but it can be
called the Fenlands as well.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
Okay, gotcha. That's how it was introduced to me. I
guess almost a year ago at this point by Khrushtov Hook,
who is a check besilographer and does a lot of
heraldry work as well, but he was part of the
reason that listener viewer. Part of the reason that James
and I are talking now is because I did a
(22:16):
tier list of English county flags, et cetera, and I
had the Black Country flag, the x More flag were
kind of defaults in there, but the flag of the
Fens wasn't at the time. It may be now, and
Krishtov told me, make sure and include that one in
your rankings, like in your list. Oh, I've never seen
(22:36):
this flag before, Like literally the day that I did
those rankings was the first time I'd ever seen the
flag or heard of the flag in fact, and so
I didn't quite know. I guess I went in with
some kind of base knowledge of a lot of the
other county flags, and like X Moore and Black Country,
you know, some of those that are a little more
out there, But I came in with zero knowledge of
(22:58):
this flag. And yeah, I think I've ranked it A B.
I can't remember. I think it's s A, B, C
D F. I think I ranked it a B because
I remember on your Instagram page. You said that the
flag made like a middle tier, which I guess would
have N, B and C out of those options. Yeah,
(23:20):
and and yeah, we chatted some since then, but well
that's we got.
Speaker 3 (23:24):
Into I didn't know it was Christoph actually who alerted
you to the flag. I didn't realize that because I
have corresponded with him and with Elis Grand Christ as
well when they added it to the Flags of the
World website, because it's on there as well, right right,
And I chatted with it, and I've chatted with I've
chatted with with both of those a little bit over
(23:46):
the years, both of those men. But then after because
I'm always on the lookout for fodder for the Facebook page,
you know, I saw that you've done this. I thought, right,
I'll take a screenshot of this and stick it on
the Facebook page. And the feedback there was some back,
and people say, why is it only why is it
only in Grade B or Grade C or whatever?
Speaker 1 (24:03):
It was. No, I know, yeah, and I.
Speaker 3 (24:05):
Think you saw that, and then you and and then
you got in touch with me on Instagram, and I
think that was the story.
Speaker 1 (24:11):
That was pretty much exactly it. I was like, without
stating the caveat that it was the first time I'd
ever seen it. I was I was like, hey, look,
I'm I'm happy to you know, kind of take a
relook at the and a lot of times you do
those tier lists or you know, as a quote unquote
flag influencer or whatever, you do those tier lists, but
(24:33):
if you were asked to redo it, you probably would
not put everything in exactly the same place that you
had before. Like it's tough to like, I don't know,
opinions change their fluid, even within like a person. So
I think I jokingly said like, hey, you know, if
you want to move it up higher on the list,
come on the show with me, which, as I said,
was tongue in cheek, although with the new colors, I
(24:57):
think I probably would move it higher up on the list.
So anyway, Okay, So that's where the Finlands are, And
that's a brief aside from me our listeners are used
to just me rambling, but from what I understand, like
the people that live there are also not primarily but
called Fens or are they Finlanders or fens or.
Speaker 3 (25:20):
They're not called fens. That's that's the name of the
the area. That's the name of the physical area that
people who live in the Fens. They can be called Finlanders,
they can be called fenmen. They're often called fenmen, but
that's obviously, you know, a male thing, and you can't
really say Fenn women. You can say fenmen. People often
say fen boys and Fenn girls as well. Fenn folk
(25:43):
is a sort of collective thing that you sometimes see.
I think my favorite term is would be Finlanders because
it's you know, you can be male or female.
Speaker 6 (25:51):
It's more bride like, yeah, yeah, and it's it's kind
of more neutral, makes sense, all right, But especially when
people are being sort of being a bit joe or
wanting to speak in a more affectionate way, they'll describe
themselves or somebody else as a.
Speaker 3 (26:05):
Fenboy or a Fen girl, even if they're you know,
quite old.
Speaker 1 (26:09):
Gotcha, gotcha, somebody does something you're like a classic fenboy, gotcha?
All right? Yeah, all that said, all right, we've got
a feel for the people on the land. Walk us
through the flag because a lot of people listen to
the show instead of watching it. Give us a brief
rundown on well, yeah, just the design of it.
Speaker 3 (26:32):
Well, the design is very simple, really, I mean, the
the overall style is the Canadian pale style, and the
outer fields are blue, which represents the natural waterways. There
are a few big rivers going through the area, and
also the man made waterways because all the dikes and
drains as they're called, all the drainage channels that keep
(26:55):
the water off the land are you know, a big
part of the landscape, especially of their embankments on either
side of them and roads running along them and along
the embankments and so forth. So the blue is for
man made and natural waterways. The yellow represents agricultural prosperity
because it's the best arable land in the UK. And
(27:19):
then in the middle of the yellow field you've got
the tiger. And the tiger comes from a term that
was applied to the local population at the time of
the drainage which I was talking about, because the local
people they really didn't want all these outsiders who had
sort of bought into a company with the promise of
having a piece of land each didn't want them to
(27:42):
go ahead and drain the fence. They wanted to carry on,
you know, fishing for eels and weaving baskets and chooting
wildfowl from punts and stuff like that. They wanted to
carry on their lifestyle and they didn't want they didn't
want the whole face of the land to be changed,
and they actually opposed the drainage and try to sabotage it.
And either the Dutch or the English engineers who were
(28:05):
working to drain the land said that they were behaving
like tigers because they were so aggressive, and that's the origin.
That's the origin. But then I always have to say
after I've said that, because people say, well, that sounds
a bit nafty and aggressive. I always have to say
afterwards that in the centuries following that, Fenn Tiger just
became a general nickname for people from the area, without
(28:28):
any kind of reference to whether they are in favor
of drainage or not. It just became a sort of
It just became a sort of moniker for people in
the area. And I suppose it also represented the fact
that people were quite independent and resourceful, quite proud. I
suppose that those sorts of things. So the meaning of
it morphed over time, and now it's used in the
(28:50):
names of lots of clubs and sports associations and athletes
and things.
Speaker 1 (28:56):
Right, because I was going to ask about that, because
like I can picture that here in like what's more
my base of knowledge. Obviously here in the in the States,
I could see there being like a sports team from
there being the Tigers for pretty much that reason exactly.
And yeah, that's pretty much what you're speaking to. So,
(29:17):
so the people aren't necessarily referred to as Fens, but
they are Fenn Tigers.
Speaker 3 (29:23):
Yeah, the people that are referred to as as I
don't know, Fenman or Finlanders or Fenbreg or whatever, and
and and some some people. For example, there was a
boxer called Dave Boy Green who was a welterweight I think,
and he was a world champion and the European champion.
He was he had the nickname. He's still alive, actually
lives in Chatter, it's not far from here. He had
(29:43):
the nickname the Fenn Tiger. And other people have been okay,
Ben Tigers.
Speaker 1 (29:47):
You know, right, So it's a well and well enough
known thing.
Speaker 3 (29:54):
Yeah, I mean, it was the obvious. It was the
obvious thing to use on a flag to represent the area. Really,
there wasn't too much, wasn't It wasn't too much doubt
in my mind about that.
Speaker 1 (30:02):
Yeah, yeah, Okay, So yeah, so all right, so we've
gone over the people, we've gone over the design. I
guess like I might honestly be a backtrack from the design.
But what made you think or what made you kind
of come up with the idea that the Fenlands or
the Fens needed a flag of its own rather than
(30:25):
just the corresponding county flags that kind of cover the
same area. But you know, broken up.
Speaker 3 (30:33):
Well, I think I think I sort of realized, as
a lot of people have in the last you know,
decade or two, that in Britain we've got more and
more subnational flags. I mean, when I was a boy
in the seventies and the eighties, you only really saw
the Union Jack, you know, as a flag that people
(30:54):
could fly in their front gardens or something, or from
public buildings. But now you see the flag of England.
We've talked about obviously the flags of Wales and Scotland,
but you also see more other subnational flags. I mean,
we've got these county flags every county in England, not
yet Wales in Scotland, but every county in England has
a flag. Some of them are quite well used, other
(31:15):
ones that others are quite rare, some regions have a flag,
and also some towns and cities have a flag, and
some of them are quite recent and some of them
are a little bit older. But this was obviously a
growing trend, these subnational flags, and I thought, and I
noticed in particular that the one in the Black Country,
(31:36):
which was only adopted in twenty twelve, had really taken off.
And that's the one yes behind your right shoulder there,
which I think is a very handsome flag myself, and
that one, I really was aware of how that had
been taken to the hearts of people who lived in
that area, which is an area, a collection of towns
(31:57):
west of Birmingham, which has always been called the Black Country,
which has for a long time.
Speaker 1 (32:02):
Gotcha, and that.
Speaker 3 (32:04):
Flag, you know, inspired me to think that maybe the
Fends should have a flag as well, because it's a
very it's quite a unique area, not just the topography
but also the culture, and people identify with the fence
quite strongly. If you're if you're driving into the area
from somewhere else, you immediately realize when you when you
when you've got in, because it looks different from where
(32:25):
you've been before, and you know, there are some traditions
and crafts and what have you. So I just thought,
because people have such a strong identification with the area,
maybe as they do in the Black Country too, which
I which I which I knew, maybe maybe a flag
could could work. But at the same time, there wouldn't
(32:45):
be any sort of public body that could instigate this.
Speaker 1 (32:50):
Next question.
Speaker 3 (32:51):
Yeah, so I'll let you ask you.
Speaker 1 (32:55):
No, No, I mean I mean basically, yeah, as you said,
it spread across different counties, different like local governances and
everything else like that. So like it is, I know
you're trying to get it registered with the Flag Institute,
and that has been, like you know, kind of a
long process, as I think it always is. But yeah,
that lack of like a local authority like have you
(33:17):
done kind of like more of like a bottom up approach.
Speaker 3 (33:20):
I guess that's exactly what That's exactly what I decided
to do at the outset. I mean, I designed the
flag in twenty sixteen, and I set up I started camp.
I started the campaign for it in twenty eighteen, I
think it was September. I set up the Facebook page
and basically I'd stamp the thing out of the ground.
Sure because I could see that there wasn't any point
(33:43):
approaching anybody about it. Nobody could do a consultation, nobody
could could sort of just say, you know, we'll release
our coat of arms and that can be the flag.
Because there wasn't one, it spread across different counties and
forms of local government. I thought, well, you know, I'll
design one and see if people like it. And I
must say, we've been doing this for six getting on
(34:05):
for six and a half years now. The response has
been incredibly you know, heartwarming, really very positive, and lots
of people have got involved. So so yes, I don't
see another way that it could have happened. Really well,
it makes seem a bit odd that it's just you know,
one person's idea.
Speaker 1 (34:23):
No, I I mean, especially in your case, I definitely
agree with that model. I've talked to a few other
flag designers, one of them being Bradley God. I'm forgetting
his last name, but.
Speaker 3 (34:36):
Brad Grady L's is that right?
Speaker 1 (34:42):
Well, I don't know that person.
Speaker 3 (34:43):
I'm sorry now, sorry, I might.
Speaker 1 (34:46):
I might, but Bradley God, it's gonna kill me. I'll
answert it in post. Here's just me talking uh No,
but Bradley from uh he's from Bellingham, Washington, which like
a smaller town that's like a little bit north of Seattle.
And he took the same approach as you, printing stickers,
(35:07):
printing little desk flags, little decals that you like you
can put in like windows of places that say like
you know, made in the fens or something in your
case or whatever that really get the public to kind
of look at that and being like, oh, I didn't
know we had a flag as well. We don't technically,
but you know, we're trying to gain support for it
(35:30):
and everything. I think that's like in your case and
in his case, I think that's the ideal approach. Yeah,
I couldn't imagine doing it a different way. And from
looking at your Instagram alone, I mean, shoot, you've got
one here. Okay, it's Birmingham. It looks like it's in
like Belgium or something. But like you've got so many
(35:52):
like I guess like a lot of navigator or like
not navigators, like a bunch of people that have boats
have taken this up because I see a lot of
penance on here.
Speaker 3 (36:00):
Yeah, it is, there's a there's a there's a big
thing in Britain. I suppose as a whole, but especially
in this area of people having narrow boats and going
along in the canals and the rivers, and of course
there's so many waterways around here.
Speaker 1 (36:15):
I was going to say, in your area, yep, the.
Speaker 3 (36:17):
Flag has really been adopted by by people with either
cruisers or narrow boats, and that they and of course
they like flying flags anyway. I mean it always looks
jolly and cheerful on boats. Flags on boats is a
good combination. And and so so there's a there's a
couple the company that tends to make most of the
flags that people buy. They sell me those pennants for
(36:41):
a special price, and I then pass them on to
somebody who runs the tourist crews here where I live,
and they sell them on for the same price. So
I just cover my costs, right, And they've just they've
just they've just been really popular. Yes, and they do
those pennants. They do look quite nice. I've got one
here actually, Unfortunately the yellow is a little bit a
little bit too, right, But that's what that's what they
(37:02):
look like.
Speaker 1 (37:03):
Oh, yeah, that looks fantastic for for listeners. We'll have
that in a show notes as well. But yeah, I've
seen so many, like I mean, so many of your
posts are not just the flag, like in a kind
of what we would call a three by five because
we use imperial measurements. Yeah yeah, but so many of
(37:25):
them on your page are stickers, both in like the
aspect of the flag or just in a circle or
a penant. Got tons of other stuff, but like definitely
getting the word out for sure.
Speaker 3 (37:38):
I mean the thing that the thing that I mean,
people have made all sorts of things. I mean, companies
may make merchandise commercially all sorts of items of clothing
and bags and what have you. But people have also
just as individuals that have made things like shields. I mean,
there's a shields in an officer's mess, you know, you know,
in an army officers mess somewhere. Three people have made tattoos,
(38:02):
which is, you know, quite an impressive commitment I actually posted.
I mean, that's that's that's that's quite something, and it's.
Speaker 1 (38:11):
Commitment to a flag that's not adopted yet. But I
mean that that also tells you, like that they honestly
don't care if it's adopted or not. They are personally
adopting that as a design that they want to put
on their body forever, which I think is one of
the highest compliments you can get really as far as that, Yeah,
(38:33):
some people don't.
Speaker 3 (38:34):
Some people don't care about the registration. They just they've
just decided they like it. You know, they're very attached
to their area and they want to fight and that's that.
That's the end of the story for them. Yeah, I
definitely understand that. Yeah, I mean for some people. For
some other people, they probably think, well, you know, it
would be better if it could be adopted, And for
(38:55):
the people running the campaign myself especially, it's it's definitely
an important goal. But yes, I mean a lot of people.
Speaker 1 (39:02):
Just wouldn't care, right Yeah, yeah, including this.
Speaker 3 (39:06):
You wouldn't know about it, wouldn't even know about that question.
Speaker 1 (39:09):
Yeah, for sure. It's oh man, I'm even seeing it
on like dog leads and or like collars and stuff.
Speaker 3 (39:17):
Yea. The big surprise for me was these dog bandanas,
because I got some bananas made again with the same
model of getting them, getting them made for a special price,
and then then setting them on for the same amount
of money to people. And I thought the idea was
that people would have bandanas for their heads or their necks,
but it suddenly turned to everybody wanted them for their dogs.
(39:38):
And I've got about forty or fifty photos of different
bandanas on people's dogs, And it would never have occurred
to me that people would want that, but they did.
Speaker 1 (39:47):
It is very cute and it spreads the word like
a dog wearing that is going to be infinitely cuter
than you know, like me or you wearing that. Anyway, Well,
it's going to get that out there pretty further, I
think a lot further. Yeah, no, for sure, I've got
a couple more questions on this. I think it might
(40:08):
be good to take one more short break and kind
of get into those last questions. I think we have
like one listener question, maybe two as well. And yeah,
well we'll go ahead and catch y'all after the break.
See then, all right, Beck SAIDs we are back last
(40:40):
part here with James Bowman from the Flag of the Fens,
and I've only got a few questions left. First one
being so you talked about part of the impetus for
really designing this flag in the first place was because
you saw other regions start to do similar things, and
(41:01):
you specifically mentioned the Black Country was a big kind
of I don't know progenitor for all of this. Do
you know anyone like in the Black Country or who
helped design that flag, design that flag that got kind
of like a foot in the door for you on
this one, or was it more solo.
Speaker 3 (41:23):
It was so low I don't know anybody who was
involved in that. That whole process was finished by twenty twelve.
There was a museum there that ran a competition in
the Black Country Living Museum, and the winner was an
eleven year old school girl. That's her design that you've
got behind you. So no, I don't have any contact
with anybody there at all, or in Exmore or Wessex,
(41:45):
or or in the places where there are other regional flags, right.
Speaker 1 (41:48):
Right, Yeah, I was gonna say, yeah, I know that's
not the only one, but it's the one like kind
of sighted in and you're like abstracts and everything for
bring it up to the Flag Institute, et cetera. But okay,
so right, all right, like absent that absent, like knowing
anyone who helped design the Black Country flag, the x
(42:08):
More flag, et cetera, the other ones you mentioned, and
and you having said that you're not hugely a flag
guy like you know you definitely have an interest obviously,
but how do you all Right, here's the way I'll
put it, Like, I don't think somebody who's not into
flags comes up with this flag for the Fens on accident,
(42:31):
Like it's very like, it follows rules, it has a
Canadian pale, which is something not a lot of people
even know is a thing. How does somebody go from
not being a flag guy to designing something that's pretty
much perfectly in line with vex exxillo logic standards.
Speaker 3 (42:52):
Well, I'm I'm glad you think that's all of it.
But I think when you're designing a flag, you start
for the place that you were designing it for and
what the symbols are, what the relevant colors are. I mean,
I've had other I've had plenty of ideas for other
flags that nobody's sort of asked me to design and
nobody would ever want. But just out of just out
(43:13):
of out of idleness, I suppose other flags and I
enjoyed the process. I did read the guidelines on flag design,
which I think are on the website of the Flag
Institute and probably in other places as well, where they
talk about, you know, avoiding words and only having three
colors or so making it simple something a child could draw.
(43:35):
That's a common phrase that people use. So I was
aware of all those guidelines or principles, and but you know,
the colors and the tiger itself that just came from
that just came from the area that I wanted to represent.
Speaker 1 (43:52):
Right, Yeah, No, So how many like kind of off
of that point, how many iterations did this flag go
through before what we're seeing now?
Speaker 3 (44:04):
Well? I did, I did. I did experiment with different colors.
The Originally the outer fields were black, which were supposed
to represent the pet soil. But then I realized that
But then I realized that not not all, not the
whole area has black soil. I mean there there are
other parts of the fens that have brown soils or
(44:25):
even white whitish soils with a bit of chalk in. Well,
that won't work. And I even experimented with the idea
of having Cambridge blue, which is a very light blue
green color which represents Cambridge University, because Cambridge is kind
of on the edge of the fens, and I thought
maybe that that would be something interesting and something that
(44:47):
that people would would identify with. And I also experimented.
I mean my original artwork, I wanted the tiger to
be orange, you know, like the real color of a tiger,
or kind of browny ocre color, and that's how I
first threw it, and that wouldn't work against the yellow background.
So I had a white background. I've got that here,
and so yeah, it did go through different it did
(45:08):
go through different phases. But the thing I realized is
you can't really have an orange tiger on a yellow
background because it's not differentiated enough.
Speaker 1 (45:17):
Right, right, right, Okay, so yeah, you're not realized.
Speaker 3 (45:20):
That heraldic animals, heraldic rampant tigers and lions are often
red anyway.
Speaker 1 (45:26):
Yeah, so make it red, right right, No, that's fascinating.
So like you're yeah, you're starting from my word is
not yours, but like knowing next a little about this
having the the black on the fly, in the hoist,
in the Canadian pail and then having to kind of
(45:46):
like recalculate for Okay, that doesn't represent everybody. What does
represent everybody is the blue because those are the like
dams and dykes and canals and everything else that you mentioned.
So basically starting with a broad design and like honing honing,
honing in on it until you get something that represents
(46:08):
the region as a whole instead of like a part
of that region, which is huge because I want everyone
in the region to fly it and and and have
it on a sticker, you know, et cetera.
Speaker 3 (46:17):
Yeah, yeah, I wanted to make it simple, very easy
to explain. I wanted it to have a sort of
balance to it. I mean, the type the rampant tiger
fits in that space quite well because it's sort of
sitting in a square really And yeah, and I didn't
I didn't want any I didn't want any references that
(46:40):
some people would like and other people wouldn't like. So
that's that's that's what I that's what I came up with.
And once I realized that the tiger probably shouldn't be orange,
I think I was kind of most of the way there.
Speaker 1 (46:54):
Yeah, no, yeah, tiger, the red definitely fits better. Yeah, Like,
I'm looking at them now and I know most of them,
but just to refresh my memory, I need a map here.
And I cannot think of any flag that the flag
for the fans would be confused with, Like you have
other ones with similar colors but not in the same pattern.
(47:16):
I don't think of a single one that has a
Canadian pale anywhere in the British Isles that I can tell. No.
Speaker 3 (47:25):
I mean, of course it is, that is quite common internationally.
I mean there are quite a lot of national flags
like that, and also some subnational flags that are like that.
But no, you're right, I think in the in the UK,
I can't. I can't think of another one, and I
can't think of a flag that looks a lot like it.
(47:46):
I mean, some people, some people said, oh, that looks
a little bit like the Scottish flag, and what they
meant by that was the Royal banner of scotl Lion. Yeah, yeah,
because and that's that's on a yellow background, but the
line is much smaller because it's got this sort of
threat in this frame with the Fleur de lys.
Speaker 1 (48:01):
Yeah yeah, but I mean, yeah.
Speaker 3 (48:04):
There's that's another red rampant, big cat. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (48:08):
But there's as far as I can tell, no other
one that has a Canadian pail or could ever be
confused for it, which obviously in our world, is a
good thing. It's probably a good time to kind of
start winding down. And you had mentioned you've made so
much stuff for this penance stickers, probably stuff I don't
even know. Do you want to give us like almost
(48:30):
a part of the plugs? Do you want to give
us like a brief rundown of like some of the
second U.
Speaker 3 (48:35):
I can show you a sorry to interrupt you, I
can show you a few things, but most of it
is made on a commercial basis by companies that don't
don't that. I don't have any direct connection with things
like hoodies and and T shirts and bags and what
have you, So I don't have all that, but I
do have I do have some things here, I should say,
but I don't make any puppet out of any of this.
(48:56):
I only sell things on for the price that I
pay for them. And then, as I say, there were
the comthing is that just sell stuff themselves, including on Amazon.
I mean people make patches and sell them on Amazon.
They didn't even ask because they just did it, which
is fine because it's a flag for everybody to use.
But I do have a I do have a few
things on the table next to me.
Speaker 1 (49:13):
I'm curious to see them, to be honest, like I've
seen them in the abstract, like on Instagram and stuff
like that.
Speaker 3 (49:20):
Oh I've got I've got key rings here. Okay, I
had the tigers the right way up and their gun
metal or silver they're available in Then.
Speaker 1 (49:38):
Okay, we've got the baseball. It's got the flag on
the front. We've got this flag. I'm going to need
one of those at some point as well.
Speaker 3 (49:52):
These are nice that they've got the colors just right
on these ones.
Speaker 1 (49:55):
Right. Yeah, I'm gonna say, I know they've gone through
a change, as I.
Speaker 3 (49:59):
Say, it's only a a small amount. Then we've got
this nettube thing so I can actually relieve your viewers
of the face for a second.
Speaker 1 (50:08):
I think in the US we call them gator. I
can't remember.
Speaker 3 (50:11):
G A. T. E. R Oh will tell you what
they're called here snoods snoods, Yeah, I don't know. So
you can use that in all sorts of different ways.
You can cover your head or you can cover your neck,
and you do different things with that. You know.
Speaker 1 (50:27):
That's the picture I'm going to use for the thumbnail.
Speaker 3 (50:30):
Right. Fortunately, I have no no physical vanity, So you
do what you do, what you like. This is one
of us. That's what this is.
Speaker 1 (50:40):
This is then flag work sausages.
Speaker 3 (50:45):
Because yeah, sausages. Yeah, you can read it.
Speaker 1 (50:47):
So it's that's like the wrapper that goes around them.
Speaker 3 (50:50):
Yeah, he's a he's a. Well, it's a it's a.
It's a. It's a family business. They're farm butchers. Do
they farm and they do their own butchery? How can
they sell the cuts of meat and sodges and what
have you? And these are the sausages they make named
after the flag, and they sell them in their shop
and they delivered them as well, and so people all
around the area are buying these. Buying these sausages is awesome.
Speaker 1 (51:15):
Yeah, like local ingredients, the local flag in two places. Yes,
I saw right, it's got one, yeah, smaller one on
the back.
Speaker 3 (51:22):
I guess, yes, it's got it has Apparently they're quite
they're quite good. They're quite good sellers, these these sausages.
Oh yes, well I've got a three pack, so that
was good. And then the last thing, the last thing
I have to show you is this map. That's a
map of the that's a map of the fence the ogon.
Speaker 1 (51:41):
This is very cool and I actually.
Speaker 3 (51:44):
Commissioned this myself because I realized there wasn't a commercially
available map of the area. There were maps of East
Anglia and maps of Southern England and this that and
the other maps of counties, but there wasn't a map
of the fence as the region. But there is a
defined area. There's a there's a national body called Natural
England and they have defined the boundaries of the fens
(52:08):
and of all sorts of other areas, the wolds and
the you know, the Peak District and all sorts of things,
and they've they've defined it. So I took their their definition,
their territorial definition of the fence, and commissioned this map
from a company in Oxfordshire. And I've been I mean,
people can have the PDF a bit or that. I've
(52:30):
also given away three copies of this paper one and
I've got my own framed.
Speaker 1 (52:37):
I was gonna say, if you don't mind putting the
giving me the PDF, I could put in the show
notes or something if anybody court.
Speaker 3 (52:42):
Yeah, I mean, it's it's it's I've really got a
lot of pleasure from this because a lot of people
have said to me, oh, and it's really nice to
have a map of the whole area. I've never seen
this before. Of course I use it to plug the
flag as well, but it's it's it's if you like flags,
you probably like maps.
Speaker 1 (52:56):
I was just going to say a lot of us
that are into flags got into them via maps or
you know, vice versa or whatever. But like, yeah, yeah, those.
Speaker 3 (53:06):
Are my bits and bobs. But as I say, there's
a well, there's a shop. There's a shop in Whittlesey,
which is in the sort of west central part of
the Fens near Peterburg. They do just everything you could imagine.
You know, pin Badger is just anything cool cool.
Speaker 1 (53:20):
So we got options. You got options, yeah, not just
for products but for suppliers too. It sounds like your
bottom up approach has really made waves.
Speaker 3 (53:32):
Like well, there are three different companies that makes the
make the flags. I mean you've had Charles Ashburner on
his company missed a flag, they made them. His sister
Joe Ashburner, she's got a flag maker as well, also
in Swansea called Red Dragon appropriately and they make them.
And then the ones that I always recommend to made
by a company called Flying Colors in Yorkshire. But there's
(53:55):
a company on Jersey, you know, in the Channel Islands
that makes them. And there's another one another one as well,
I can't remember the name of it. So there are
different companies that make them. But again, the whole point
is I think of it like the Cornish flag or
the Black Country flag. It's a community flag. Anybody can
use it, anybody can make stuff. They didn't have to
ask me. I certainly don't. I certainly didn't make any
(54:15):
money out of it. It's just out there.
Speaker 1 (54:17):
Yeah. I think the best flags are usually made that way.
Brad Lockhart, whose last name I finally remember just now,
who was the one I was talking about that did
a similar bottom up approach, like same thing, like he
was handing out stickers for free handing out this. You know,
just get the word out, get the visual out, and
(54:37):
everything about it, and honestly, like tracks very very closely
to what you're doing. Because I think he even said
that he had that flag on products like I don't
know if they were necessarily sausages, but like you know,
it's it's near Seattle, so like coffee cups, things like that.
Speaker 3 (54:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (54:56):
I think they had it all over to the point
where like it's happening around you. Uh, people pick it
up and they're like, oh, what's this? Oh this represents
me and where I live? Okay, cool, I'm much more
inclined to get this now, or hell I want one
on my own, you know, whatever the case may be.
But yeah, no, it's a very good approach and I'm
(55:17):
excited to buy some of that merge. I've got to
get a flag too. I'll probably get it from mister flag.
Knowing me that's where I got. I think both of
these behind me here and a lot of my UK
county ones, which not important, but I think I have
more UK county flags than US state flags, and a
lot of that is chopped up to the fact that
(55:38):
our state flags are lagging behind in design things. If
we had somebody like you in every state there was like, hey,
the state flag should or politely suggest that the state
flag should be this.
Speaker 3 (55:54):
Well, I there, I've seen that there have been some
competitions that the states.
Speaker 1 (56:00):
Yeah, so it's definitely growing. People are becoming more conscious
of it. There's the typical pushback, but you're going to
have that everywhere, I think, and it's along like kind
of political lines in our case anyway over here. Yeah,
but yeah, you know, you do what you can. You
get it out there. The people that like it like it,
(56:20):
and they spread it far and wide. So yeah, I
think that's probably a good place to wrap it up.
We did a few plugs already speaking of yeah, the
merch and everything, But do you have any kind of
other plugs or any like website People can go to
any anything they can read, look up on this, anything
(56:41):
at all that you want to plug.
Speaker 3 (56:43):
Well. The social media are Facebook and Instagram, also X
or Twitter, but that seems to be sort of that's
more difficult now, Yeah, because I have because I haven't
paid for the premium because I don't really want to
do that. No, I don't. I don't feel it's right
somehow that for me to sort of pay to get
(57:04):
attention on a platform like that. So I haven't done that.
So the Twitter thing is or the X thing has
slightly died away. The main things. The main things are Facebook, Instagram.
I'm also on threads, which just tends to replicate what's
on Instagram, and and and and the big the biggest
of all is Facebook. I mean that's the Facebook is
(57:26):
a real joy for me in promoting this flag.
Speaker 1 (57:29):
Right right, And we don't have so much respond We
don't have to live in the Fens or the fen
Lands to join the Facebook group or anything. No, Okay,
we just have to be enthusiasts.
Speaker 3 (57:41):
And there are there are people who have who have
varying antecedents in the US in Australia who are followers
and they regularly respond posts with likes and comments and things.
Is that the US and Australia are the two main places, right? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (57:58):
I guess makes sense, all right? So yeah, so if
we search anywhere on social media for Flag of the
Fins and that is f e n S. My southern
accent sometimes makes that sound like f i in ns fins,
but don't get a twist. It is f e n S.
Search for that on all social media and you will
(58:20):
find their accounts. And not only will you find their accounts,
you'll find, as previously mentioned, a ton of people flying
it in various circumstances, stickers, et cetera, et cetera. And
you can kind of go from there. But yeah, if
you're happy with that, I'll get some of my plugs
out of the way, which are brief. If you have
(58:40):
gotten this far in the show, you probably know where
to find us. But if not, we have a link
tree which is just linktree dot com, slash flagged for
content all spelled out fo R the four and that
will take you to all of our links. And I
usually kind of like skim over this, but some of
the links on there are pretty important for folks to
(59:03):
go to. Like if you want to talk with us,
go on the discord. There are one hundred plus people
in there. You can chat with all of us. If
you want a little bit of bonus content, the Patreon
link is on there. You get extra bonus episodes things
like that. So anyway, I want, I want bore James anymore.
But I think that's pretty much it for my plugs.
(59:27):
And yeah, I think with that we will go ahead
and close it out. James. Any last words.
Speaker 3 (59:33):
Here, I can't think of any except that I'm very
grateful to you for having me on after the list
of illustrious people that you've had. I'm very very honored
and it's been a real joy to talk to you.
Speaker 1 (59:46):
Oh, the joy and the honor is all mine. And
that's honor just with an O R. Because it's America
over here. Anyway, James, thank you so much for coming on.
This has been a lovely chat. Hopefully we'll chat soon
and for those of you who are watching listening, we
will catch you on the fly side.
Speaker 3 (01:00:07):
Thank you, thanks very much, thank you.
Speaker 1 (01:00:12):
All Right, we got it, We got it.
Speaker 3 (01:00:16):
I'm sitting in my pitch black house with this spotlights.
Speaker 1 (01:00:26):
Flag for Content is proud to be sponsored by Flags
for Good. Go to Flags for Good dot com for
more information.
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