October 12, 2023 • 52 mins
Have you ever pondered what it really means to forgive? Are you able to fully grasp that forgiveness is more than just letting go of anger or resentment? In this discussion, we journey deeper into the world of forgiveness, peeling back its many layers to reveal the transformative power it holds. We dissect the challenges that come with forgiving those who don't meet our expectations or whose intentions are murky.
Shifting gears, the dialogue steers towards the correlation between forgiveness and setting boundaries. We unravel how forgiveness doesn't equate to overlooking an individual's actions and the importance of maintaining healthy boundaries even after forgiving. Moreover, we delve into how forgiveness does not necessarily erase the consequences of one's actions. These aspects are particularly noteworthy when navigating complex family dynamics, especially in situations involving addiction.
As we conclude this enlightening conversation, we confront the often-overlooked aspect of self-forgiveness. We present the idea that forgiving ourselves is often the most daunting part of the process, yet it ushers in new possibilities and hopes for the future. Through this comprehensive exploration of forgiveness, we aim to inspire you to be more intentional with your forgiveness, urging you to remember that maintaining boundaries forms an essential part of the process. Join us, and let's reframe our understanding of forgiveness together.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Becca Wood (00:16):
Welcome to the Flatbill Pastor podcast.
Clint Nolder (00:21):
Hello.
Becca Wood (00:21):
Hello, I am Becca and this is my friend.
Clint Nolder (00:25):
Clinton.
Becca Wood (00:26):
Hello Clinton.
Clint Nolder (00:27):
Thank you.
Becca Wood (00:28):
How are you?
Clint Nolder (00:29):
I'm Dandy.
I am feeling froggy, fresh andtoday is a good day.
Becca Wood (00:35):
I can feel that energy today.
I'm feeling it.
What they have not seen behindthe scenes is you singing this
morning and I'm here for it.
Clint Nolder (00:42):
Well, you know what?
You got?
An in sync shirt on, and it'sinspired me.
Bye, bye, bye.
Becca Wood (00:49):
Bye, bye, bye.
I'm so glad to inspire you allin sync.
Clint Nolder (00:53):
Yes, are they going to do a tour?
Becca Wood (00:56):
I hope so.
I've been on my knees praying.
I love me some in sync.
Justin, if you are listening,if you are tuning in, I'm
manifesting a tour.
Clint Nolder (01:08):
I think Justin Timberlake needs a Flatbill
Pastor.
Becca Wood (01:10):
Yeah.
Clint Nolder (01:11):
I think so.
Becca Wood (01:12):
I think so too.
Clint Nolder (01:14):
Yeah, jt, let's just talk.
Let's have a conversation,spiritual conversation, I'm up
for it.
Becca Wood (01:19):
All right, you hear, justin, we're talking to you,
that's right, it's gonna be.
Clint Nolder (01:23):
May I love it.
That's my best impression ofyou.
You sound better than that.
I sound better than that too,but it's on the film now.
Becca Wood (01:31):
We love it.
We love it, so let's just diveright into it.
Episode nine what, what, what.
Clint Nolder (01:39):
Oh, nine.
Yeah, we're in nine OctoberOctober which is crazy.
It is crazy, october, which youwould think October would be
episode 10.
Becca Wood (01:50):
You know, you would think, should we?
Just you?
Clint Nolder (01:54):
know pretend that.
Becca Wood (01:56):
Let's just like pretend, that didn't happen.
We're not a little Okay.
I haven't obviously had toomuch coffee.
I was excited on and see that'sright.
We're fast forwarding.
Clint Nolder (02:08):
We are fast forwarding, not through October,
because then we'd be at 11.
Becca Wood (02:10):
No, that's right.
Let's yeah, yeah, okay, so whatare we talking about, please?
Clint Nolder (02:17):
Not in sync in the tour or not a tour.
Becca Wood (02:18):
Please forgive me on all of these little mess ups.
Clint Nolder (02:23):
You know you're forgiven.
This is so easy.
Becca Wood (02:25):
So easy.
Speaking of.
That is today's topic.
Clint Nolder (02:30):
Yeah.
Becca Wood (02:30):
Forgiveness.
Clint Nolder (02:32):
Yeah, forgiveness, I think it's crazy hard.
Crazy hard to talk about andeven harder to do, but for sure
I think it's something thatevery single person on the
planet thinks about and likelystruggles with, so I think it's
(02:58):
it's worth putting the time into discuss that out loud.
Becca Wood (03:02):
For sure.
Can we start maybe by definingwhat forgiveness is, or maybe in
like a biblical context, ormaybe even a pastoral context?
What does that mean?
Clint Nolder (03:15):
Yeah.
So this is.
This is tough to put some wordsto it.
So if you were to look up theword forgiveness, it's going to
say something like the stophaving feelings of anger or
hostility or resentment towardssomeone for something that
they've done.
You know, and I think I thinkfrom a biblical standpoint
(03:36):
certainly, that that's part ofit, like, hey, I'm going to stop
having these feelings in thisdirection towards this person
for something that they've done.
But I also think it goes alittle bit further than just
okay, well, I don't feelsomething towards them.
I think there's something from abiblical hey, I want to follow
Jesus piece where it's not.
(03:56):
It's not just something thathappens in their direction,
there's also something thathappens internally with us when
we talk about forgiveness, andthere's a power that forgiveness
has that we really can'texperience when we're
experiencing unforgiveness.
But when we, when we decide tomake that trade, the trade our
(04:19):
forgiveness for ourunforgiveness, that's when we
realize just how powerfulforgiveness can be.
But it's it's hard to put wordsto, but it is more than just I
don't feel resentment or angertowards you anymore.
There's something deeper thanthat and I think that's probably
one of the things we willuncover as we continue the
discussion.
Becca Wood (04:40):
Yeah, for sure, because I think this is a huge
topic for anybody and everybody,because we are human and I feel
like this is one of the mosthuman things that we can
struggle with is forgiveness.
Clint Nolder (04:56):
Yeah, we're all human, except for whoever the
flight attendants or people wereon the back of that plane with
that lady, whoever she was.
You know I'm talking about.
They are not real.
They weren't, obviously theyweren't.
But I mean.
Everyone else, though, and andwhoever was in that box that
Mexico unveiled this past week?
I'm pretty sure I saw thatpicture of an alien in a box
(05:17):
with a thing on it that I thinkthat was a Mexican government.
If I remember reading thatcorrectly, it looked like like
ET.
Then they said it was a legitalien.
I don't know, maybe it was ahoax.
I didn't spend much timebecause you know, space is real
and that clearly was somethingthat someone made with some
plaster and paper mache.
(05:38):
But yeah, we're way off track,sorry.
Becca Wood (05:41):
No, it's fine, I was here for it.
Send me the link later for sure.
So I guess to me forgivingsomeone, it just kind of there's
a scale to it, I feel like, andyou know it's so easy to
forgive, you know, maybe so andso in the fast food line for
(06:01):
getting our order, maybe it'sfor some people, it's super easy
or not to forgive those people,but then there's also like the
people who are more difficult toforgive, maybe someone who's
like closer to you.
So I guess it's to like figuringout that like scale to have
like forgiveness too.
(06:23):
It also depends on likepersonal experiences and past
experiences.
Clint Nolder (06:29):
Yeah, I definitely think that when you say scale,
are you saying in terms of likewhether it's easy or not, like
it's a it's easy to difficultscale, or are you saying there's
different types of forgiveness?
I just want to make sure Iunderstand what you're saying.
Becca Wood (06:44):
Well, I guess both, but I wasn't thinking like that.
I was definitely thinking likeit's easier to forgive, you know
, like you know, oh, sally thebarista who gave you the wrong
coffee.
Yeah.
Like oh, it's fine, it's great.
I think that's a great way toget to know your family versus,
like some, you know, a familymember who continues or you know
(07:04):
, hurt you or whatever.
Clint Nolder (07:08):
And that just tends to be a little more
difficult to forgive.
Yeah, I would agree with that,I think I think when we talk
about our feelings, you know, wecan certainly make small things
into larger things.
And someone you know mess upour drink order, whatever,
(07:29):
typically, if we blow up on themand are having struggle,
struggles with forgiveness, it'sreally not about them, it's
about something else.
You know, that's has kind ofpiled up and become bigger than
you know what we anticipated itbeing and and it's just the
overflow that the barista is nowcatching from us.
When we talk about really largethings, our personal things, for
(07:51):
us, that with people that areclose to us, a lot of times that
deals with not just not justsomething they did, but
oftentimes things that weexpected them to do, where we
had this expectation and theyfelt short of it.
So it's not just their actions,it's aggravated or anger us.
(08:12):
It's the failing to meet theexpectations we had internally
for them.
And so there's really twopieces is they've made mistakes,
but also they haven't lived upto what we were hoping.
And so when you put those twothings together expectations,
and then this hope and desireand and the just failure that
happened.
(08:32):
You know the mistake that wasmade all of a sudden.
That runs a little deeper withus than just well, shoot.
I want to decaf and you gave mecaffeinated whatever.
I don't drink coffee, so Idon't know what you call
caffeinated coffee.
Becca Wood (08:46):
But yeah for sure, and that's a good point, the
expectations that people likefall short and I feel like that
is a huge challenge when we aretrying to navigate forgiveness.
And maybe their intentions aswell, because those are my two
at least, for like personally,if I think, because I feel like
(09:09):
too.
Maybe everyone has that oneperson or they don't I'm just
but myself over here but theycan think of that person that
they are either like trying toforgive or forgiven in the past,
and those are big pillars whilenavigating.
Forgiveness is likeexpectations and like intentions
.
What would you think about that?
(09:32):
Like the intentions behind itas well?
Clint Nolder (09:35):
Yeah, I think, I think we have the ability to
self-diagnose someone else'smotive, whether we're correct or
not, you know, I I think thatcomes and goes, um, but for sure
our mind jumps to.
Not only do I understand whatyou did, I now have jumped to.
Why would you do that?
And a lot of times we move tothe worst case scenario of
(09:55):
surely this is the explanationbehind their behavior.
That I also was unacceptable.
So it's, I've got anexpectation of you and who you
are, and you've missed that mark.
You've now done somethingactually that I can see, um, and
I'm disappointed in that action.
So now you've failed on theexpectation, you failed on the
action, and the third piecewould be what you're saying is
(10:16):
um, I also think that you did iton purpose, right, that your
intent wasn't even that youintended to make this mistake.
It wasn't like a oh, shoot,sorry, it was like no, you, you
purposely did this, um, that youknew my expectation and my
hopes for you.
You knew this was not somethingthat was okay and you did it on
purpose.
You put those three thingstogether and it's difficult to
(10:37):
move on from, it's difficult tostep into a season of
forgiveness with them, if allthree of those things exist a
mistake, um, a failure to meetan expectation, and you believe
it was intentionally done,that's uh, those are hard things
to overcome and I thinkeveryone can probably think of
someone in their life that kindof falls into that category.
(10:58):
I know, when I think throughthat I I remember many, many
Fridays where I sat on the frontporch of, uh, my house and
looked at the street waiting formy mom to come pick me up, and
she just never showed and Iwould just sit there and
(11:20):
eventually someone would comeoutside and say, hey, it's okay,
she'll be here next week, andmost weeks it was just an empty
street or out here at car coming.
We had these big Magnolia treesthat were sat right in the front
yard and it was huge, thisenormous Magnolia tree, and I
couldn't you couldn't seethrough it and of course I was
too young to like run out intothe street so I could sit on the
(11:41):
porch by myself and it wasprobably 30 or 40 feet to the
street, um, from our house, so Icould sit on the front porch
but I couldn't see past theMagnolia tree.
So I'd hear a car coming andI'd be like listening, like okay
, is it slowing down?
It's slowing down, slowing down, and it would just drive right
by.
And those I mean.
I still remember sitting on ourfront porch and the anger and
(12:03):
the resentment that started tobuild and form because it was a
mistake of not showing up whenyou're supposed to, it was a
failure to meet an expectationthat I had for someone that was,
you know that, close to me, um,and then I also you put that
third piece in there, like I.
I think you know good and wellwhat you're doing and you just
(12:25):
don't care, and that that is.
it has taken a long time.
You know, we go back to when Iwas eight, nine, 10, 11, 12
years old, 13.
Um, and I mean it's it'ssomething that it may have took
decades.
(12:48):
You know, at least two um for meto get to a place where, you
know, I felt like I could dowhat Jesus asked me to do with
that Um and it's, but it'sdifficult when those three
things exist together.
It's it's hard to move on, it'shard to sit in a place of peace
(13:08):
and forgiveness, um, when thosethings are so real to you, you
know, uh, and I.
The other side of it, though,is, I think it's also gorgeous
the way that God's made us, thatwe are so connected to people
and that we do have that abilityto have expectations for
(13:28):
someone who's supposed to carefor us, and that so many times,
people meet those expectations,right, that God's given us a
heart and a desire to love andto care and to be a part of one
another's lives, and when thosepeople show up, um, it changes
the meaning of life for us.
You know, like, all of a sudden, there's this overwhelming
(13:50):
sense of this is a good moment,uh, and I wouldn't trade these
experiences for anything,because I'm with the people that
I care about and that reallygenuinely care about me, and
this is what life is for.
You know, when we think aboutthe community aspect of how God
has created us.
I mean this is good and sothere's there's a positive thing
with it and, honestly, for usto enjoy those moments where
(14:15):
everyone meets thoseexpectations which and I'm not
saying that everyone'sexpectations or everyone, all
the expectations I have forpeople are right.
But you know, I mean there'sgeneral expectations we have
with friends or or good friendsand families and those kind of
things and those, thoseexpectations typically are
reasonable.
And so when, when people meetthose expectations, we have this
(14:36):
extreme high.
But the reason it's such agreat high for us to experience
is because we also have it tocompare to the worst moments
where people didn't meet thoseexpectations, intentionally or
unintentionally.
We still know what it's like tosit on a front porch and know
one show which makes the momentswhen people show that much
(14:56):
sweeter, you know, and so it's.
It's, it's a, it's a good and abad thing, I guess, is what I'm
saying.
It it we get.
We get to experience both as aspeople.
Becca Wood (15:07):
No, yeah, that's a really good way I mean, I
haven't necessarily thought ofit that way um, in retrospect,
flipping it, um, so that's agood insight, I guess now,
though, so you have been hurtwhy is it so important to
forgive, and why does maybeJesus think we should forgive?
Clint Nolder (15:29):
Yeah, Um, I think, how do we can get there?
When we think about forgiveness, there's one moment where you
know Jesus is is so radical andradically different in terms of
the way we interact with otherpeople relative to what we would
naturally do.
There's a moment, um in in hisown story, where one of his
(15:51):
really close friends comes andasks him and they're just kind
of walking through someinterpersonal expectations that
they have with other people, andhe's like hey, how many times
should I forgive someone?
You know seven times, you know.
And and Jesus is like no, hegives us just crazy number like
70 times.
Seven times, you know, andthat's a lot, that's a lot of
(16:12):
forgiving.
Um, and then the really goodfriend, like he was thinking
like seven times is a prettystinking also amount of times,
like that's a really that's alike.
If I'm forgiving you seventimes, then I'm doing you a
solid.
And Jesus is like look, evenyour extreme hasn't even gotten
(16:33):
to the expectation.
Let's just this is blow thisthing out of the water.
Um, you should forgive just acrazy amount of times.
So that's Jesus's expectation.
And so that would then lead usto the question Jesus, why would
you ask us to submit ourselvesto that many wrongdoings, like
(16:58):
why are you okay with that?
Why would you even put into ourminds that we could have the
expectation of ourselves to beinvolved with other people that
would wrong us that many timesand then have the expectation
that we would continue toforgive them that many times?
That's a lot of times forsomeone to make a mistake in our
(17:21):
direction, intentionally orunintentionally still a mistake
in our direction.
That's a lot of times, jesus,and I think what we wanna get
stuck on is golly, that's a lotof abuse that we're submitting
ourselves to.
But that's not the point Jesuswas trying to make.
And Jesus was trying to show usthat, hey, it doesn't matter how
many times something happens toyou that you don't deserve.
(17:44):
What ultimately matters is youdon't want what happens to you,
however many times it happens,to affect what's next for you,
and if you can't forgive, thenthat's what's happened.
So, in other words, what willhappen to you in your own
unforgiveness is worse than whathappened to you that you are
(18:07):
struggling to forgive, right, isit?
Look, the things that happeninternally and externally as a
result of you not being able toforgive someone is well worse
than whatever they did to you,because it just locks us up and
now we can think of things likeman.
There are some really terriblethings people can do to us and I
agree there are some awfulthings people can do to us.
(18:29):
But if we think about itproportionally, a lot of times
those really awful things thathappened to us then cause these
after effects that are sometimesreliving it.
It feels internally, at leastwhen I think through some of
those things that have happenedto me.
It's like I'm experiencing itall over again, over and over,
and over and over again.
I'm saying man, but forgivenesshas this spiritual component to
(18:54):
it when we're followers of Jesus.
That doesn't make what happenedto us okay and it doesn't get
rid of it, but it does bring usa peace that doesn't make a lot
of sense to anybody else, whichis a promise that God gives
throughout.
The biblical narrative is thatI have peace that passes any of
your understanding, and so wehave things that have happened
(19:14):
to us and because we begin tofollow the path that Jesus has
set for us in the way we handlewhen wrongs have happened to us,
he gifts us this peace thatdoesn't come from in us.
It's not something that weconjure up on our own.
It's a result of the spirit ofGod working in our life.
It's a peace that only he canprovide, and when we look at our
(19:36):
circumstances, it makes nosense that we would be able to
move forward peacefully with thetrauma we've experienced.
I don't understand how ithappens.
The only explanation is Godgives it, and so the reason that
we ought to forgive is becauseGod's got something more for us
that's waiting on us after we'vegone through whatever bad or
(20:00):
poor or tragic or traumaticexperience that someone has put
us through.
There's more for us.
Our life is not finished.
God still has more for us tostep into, and he knows Jesus
knows that if we walk forward orattempt to walk forward into
that with unforgiveness insideof us, we are not going to
fulfill everything that Jesuswants for us Because we're being
(20:21):
weighed down.
That's what unforgiveness is,is shackles around our feet
which we didn't put there,someone else put there because
they did us wrong.
And so now we've got two issues.
We've got the issue of thetragedy they caused in our life,
or the trauma or the mistake orwhatever it is they've caused
in our life, but now we've alsogot the ball and chain that
comes with unforgiveness that isdragging us down, so that every
(20:44):
time we walk into anothersituation, this unforgiveness
piece is still hanging over ourhead and we use that as the lens
to view the next person infront of us.
And if we use that lens to viewwhoever God's gonna put in our
path in the future, we mightmiss out on some of the greatest
relationships we could haveever imagined, because we're
(21:04):
still looking at them throughthe lens of someone else's
mistake and our inability to letit go.
And when I say let it go, Idon't mean just to like pretend
it never happened, right?
Because for sure I mean God'sgonna hold every single one of
us accountable for the thingsthat we've done, so it's not
like, hey, things have neverhappened.
And for sure, if we walkforward, it doesn't mean that
(21:28):
they're exempt from consequences.
It just means that we areexempting ourselves from giving
ourselves more consequencesbecause of their stupid decision
or poor decision or recklessdecision.
You know.
Becca Wood (21:43):
Yeah, for sure, because I feel like a lot of
people they don't want toforgive and they don't wanna
relinquish control back to thatperson, or they feel like it's
almost like a weakness, but it'sactually quite the opposite,
and so my question now is sowhat are boundaries that are
(22:08):
maybe healthy that we could setup, because I feel like, okay,
let's just forgive and forget,forgive and forget.
We're out here like Oprahgiving free forgiveness for
everybody.
Like what is an ideal I don'tknow when we forgive to actually
move on and have thoseboundaries in place.
Clint Nolder (22:31):
For sure.
There's a difference betweenforgiveness and trust, and you
can offer someone forgivenessand not offer them your trust.
And so I don't think there'sthis idea of forgive and forget,
because when we forgive andforget, we forgive and pretend
right, we're gonna pretend likethat never happened.
Well, that's not whatforgiveness is.
(22:53):
It's just saying, hey, you knowwhat?
There's nothing else I can doto hold you accountable.
If it's a legal thing, thenthere's a court system that's
gonna take care of you.
If it's not a legal thing, thenI'm gonna trust God that His
justice is gonna be fine, butI'm not gonna allow your issues
to dictate what I'm gonna bemoving forward.
And so I'm gonna stop harboringthis bitterness and resentment
(23:15):
towards you, because I thinkJesus gives me this ability,
this spiritual ability, to sayyou know what, I'm gonna let it
go.
But when you let it go and youbegin to move forward and move
on, that doesn't mean that youhave to trust them the same way,
trusting them is not connectedto forgiveness, right, it's not
(23:40):
a hey, if I'm gonna forgive younow, I'm gonna trust you like I
did previously.
That's not what the expectationis.
And so when we talk aboutboundaries, boundaries are
important, especially if we knowlike, hey, at the end of the
(24:01):
day, just because we forgivesomeone doesn't mean they wanted
to be forgiven.
So someone might have anoffense towards you.
They might think that it wasn'ta big deal but it ruined you.
Right, so you can forgive themand they might not even feel
(24:23):
like they need to be forgiven.
They might not even feel likethey need to be forgiven.
So for sure, you're still notgoing to trust them because they
don't realize that they didanything wrong.
They still think that there wasno issue.
So you can move on and say youknow, I'm not going to hold this
, they're not going to hold thisagain, like where it's going to
make me feel this bitternessand anger towards you.
(24:43):
I'm not going to do thatanymore.
I'm going to say it is what itis, but I'm I'm starting to
trust that.
That you're going to do rightby me moving forward Like I've
now learned something that'sgoing to teach me.
Hey, this is, this is probablynot what's up, it's just.
Experiences are still, is stillinformation that helps form our
worldview.
So let's pretend, for example,I'm trying to think is in the
(25:07):
mouth of my head.
Let's pretend, for example,let's take an extreme example,
right, let's, let's, let's talkabout abuse, physical harm,
abuse, and let's say.
Let's say someone has abusedyou, right, in a relationship
like boyfriend, girlfriend,right, and the boyfriend is
(25:29):
abusing, physically, abusing thegirlfriend.
Like you can separate, move onfrom that relationship, forgive
the person.
Maybe there's legalconsequences.
Hopefully someone has helpedyou with the courage to say
something to someone and there'sprobably some legal
(25:49):
consequences for that guy.
But you can.
You can still forgive them,even though he's going through
those consequences.
He can even be sorry, right.
Let's just say he's sorry andremorseful.
We can still forgive him, right.
However, we can still moveforward with information we have
.
We don't have to forget thatinformation to make a better
decision.
Let's just say he goes onparole Like it's legit, like hey
(26:12):
, we can, there's a convictionwhen maybe even went to prison,
whatever, and he gets out andthen all of a sudden there's an
opportunity to have arelationship moving forward.
You still get to make adecision with full forgiveness,
to say you know what, this isprobably not a relationship I'm
going to get into and it's thesame as us having an information
.
Let's just pretend that you'rethe second girlfriend and or the
(26:34):
second potential person and hejust got out of prison and you
know like, okay, you were inprison for beating the person
you were in a relationshippreviously, so that wasn't even
against you.
But you can still use thatknowledge and say you know what,
I don't know if I'm going tomove forward in a relationship.
So it's when we experiencesomething or we see something
(26:54):
else.
It's still information we canuse to make a better decision.
To go forward has nothing to dowith forgiveness.
It's just hey, I'm going to usewhat I know to set a boundary
or to avoid an interaction.
Moving forward has nothing todo with the forgiveness side of
things, which I think is arealistic way for us to interact
(27:15):
with other people.
I get it.
It's this part of it, even withJesus.
You know, jesus looks at us andeverybody says, well, God
forgives and forgets.
No, he doesn't.
He didn't forget.
No, if he forgot, jesus doesn'tdie on the cross.
Like, god forgives and thenremembers.
(27:35):
And then Jesus experiencesevery single punishment and
peace and agony that we'resupposed to.
God doesn't forget and move on.
No, god punished Jesus for itand there's no way around it.
So God doesn't even do that.
I mean we'll read like okay, heputs our sins as far as the
(27:58):
East is from the West.
Right, that's this reallyfamous song.
And we think, okay, well,that's, he separated us.
Yeah, that's true, but Jesusstill paid for it.
God didn't just sweep it underthe rung, it pretended didn't
happen.
In fact, god knew that therewas going to be offenses made
towards him.
He created the idea offorgiveness, created the cross,
(28:23):
put his son on the cross andthen he allowed the whole thing
to happen because he knew, hey,I'm not just going to pretend,
I'm going to use what I know isgoing to happen and I'm going to
make a path forward and that'swhat Jesus was ultimately.
And we get the benefits of that, where it's almost like, you
know, we had never sinned.
(28:44):
But it's not quite like we hadnever sinned, because the
reality is Jesus still died forour sins, you know.
So God doesn't even work in thereality of.
Oh well, we'll just pretendlike this never happened before.
Becca Wood (28:58):
Right.
So does that mean that you cannecessarily?
Or forgiveness andreconciliation do they have to
go hand in hand?
Or do you need one for theother, or is the one
prerequisite?
Clint Nolder (29:13):
Yeah, I think it's very.
I don't know if you canreconcile without forgiveness.
The question is is when youtalk about reconciliation, the
Bible tells us that we ought tobe ministers of reconciliation
or people who are serving inreconciliation.
Now, when we talk aboutreconciling, I don't think
there's a requirement for thingsto go back to the way they were
(29:35):
, but I think reconciling istied to forgiveness in that, hey
, we can move forward in a wayit's.
I mean, one of the greatestexamples we've got is the
shooting that happened inCharleston.
The church and an incrediblepicture of grace and
(29:55):
reconciliation were the familiesof those victims that said, hey
, we forgive you.
On national television.
And then the trial and say, hey, we forgive you.
Staring at a person that killedtheir kids or their brother
sisters, hey, we forgive you.
And wanting to just say, hey,things are okay with us or
between us.
I just can't imagine how to getthere.
(30:15):
But again, that's also thisthing that Jesus gives us.
That makes no sense to us.
But somehow we found a way tohave peace and to reconcile.
Now does that mean thatrelationship is going to be a
good relationship?
Killer and victims, familiesLike they're reconciled?
No, reconciliation is not nowwe're BFFs, right, but it is
(30:35):
saying that whatever it is thatSatan could use between you and
I, I'm going to squash that sothat God's will and plan for me
isn't hindered by some ball andchain that exists between you
and me.
That's what we're going toreconcile is hey, at the end of
the day, at the end of the day,I don't understand why you made
your decision.
(30:56):
It hurts, I'll never.
I'll never be able to move onlike, forget that moment,
whatever.
But I'm not going to give youpower to stop me from whatever
God has in front of me and I'mcertainly not going to give you
space in between my ears when Igo to sleep at night, where
(31:16):
you're going to dominate mythoughts.
I'm going to do that anymoreand I'm going to be the person
that says hey, my hope for youis you fall in love with Jesus
and that at some point, at somepoint, you decide to give Jesus
every piece and part of yourlife.
And I pray that for you and Ihope for that, you for you, and
(31:38):
I want that for you, wish it foryou, if anything.
That's what I dream for you andI think that's where
reconciliation and forgivenesskind of intermix, intermingle,
intertwine.
Becca Wood (31:52):
Yeah, which is so much easier said than done.
And, like you said, I meanthese are just like crazy
stories that you hear, like how,that's just unfathomable, like
how can we forgive?
I mean, even speaking, you know, as a Christian, like it's just
sometimes just like, oh, how dowe even get there?
And two, like personally, it'sthe people that maybe, like
(32:20):
continue to hurt you.
And, like you said, like oh,you should always just keep keep
forgiving and keep settingboundaries.
But I guess some people stillstruggle with, like the thought
of it's like maybe, like as afamily member, you can't like
leave your family, you can't get.
I mean, maybe you can, maybeyou can, but in certain
situations it's like the personlike this is forever, this is my
(32:42):
life and I'm with that personforever.
How, how do we even navigatethat?
Clint Nolder (32:47):
I think you well.
First of all, when it comes tofamily situations, you've got to
have the willingness to have aconversation outside of the
family.
I would, I would recommend yougo and speak with a pastor or,
even better, probably acounselor that specializes in
interpersonal relationships, inparticular, healthy families,
(33:07):
and you want to have aconversation about, hey, what
does it look like?
Because you're right, we're notgetting rid of family, but we
can create boundaries, right?
So let's, let's talk a littlebit.
Let's give a real, specificexample.
Let's let's give an example ofa parent that has an addiction
issue and is wrapped up inaddiction and, you know, has
(33:33):
made a lot of poor decisions foras long as you can think of,
and they continue to live inthat world of addiction and the
cycle that happens, right?
Well, obviously, let's say, ifit's a parent like you're stuck
with them, like you can't, youdon't get new parents, right,
they're going to be there untilthey're not there, and and so
(33:54):
what you've got to come to theconclusion of is that you can be
a part of their life, but youdon't give free reign into your
life for just anyone andeveryone, even regardless of
whether they're blood or youknow, long-term connections, and
so I would encourage someonewho's got a parent as addicted.
(34:15):
I would say hey, look, alwaysanswer the phone they call, pick
it up.
If it's inconvenient for you,that's okay.
Pick up the phone If they call,be available.
But then you can also setboundaries of hey.
My answer is always going to beno.
When you ask me for money, Iwill always be here to talk with
(34:36):
you, but if you're showing anysigns or symptoms of being on
something, you're not going tohave access to my kids.
I'm not going to tell my kidsanymore that you said you're
going to show up, because Idon't want to disappoint them.
So whenever you show up fromnow on, it'll be a surprise for
them, which they love surprises.
(34:56):
So feel free.
Feel free to show up.
So, whatever is happening, andif you're sober, it's obvious to
me when you're sober, we can'thide it.
So you're always welcome tosober.
But you can call and tell meyou're coming, and I'm still not
going to tell them, because Ifigured out a way to deal with
(35:18):
the disappointment, but they'retoo young to have to figure that
out, and so they'll just getsurprised by whatever the name
is grandmother, granddaddy,whatever it is and I think
you've got to set up thoseboundaries.
And again, I think you've gotto rely on Jesus to give you the
peace for those boundaries.
And certainly there's otherthings, right.
(35:38):
I mean you might say, hey, look, when it comes to addiction and
those poor choices, you mightsay, well, I want to be involved
, I want to help with rehab orwhatever.
So you can always give optionsLike hey, I'll always answer the
phone the moment you want toget help.
I'll be your biggest advocate.
I've already done the research.
I've got two or three placesthat you could look into right
(36:01):
now.
So as soon as you want to dosomething and move forward, I'll
help you.
Like, you sit in that positionand that posture and ultimately
you're still have a life withthem.
But it's up to them whether ornot they want to do the right
things, to be fully involved inyour life or not, and so you
have the ability to remove thatresponsibility from you.
(36:22):
That wasn't yours to begin with, but sometimes we feel like
it's ours to begin with and Ithink that that's applicable
across all lines.
It doesn't matter what thewrong is, it's been done to us.
If there's something that'sinappropriate that continues to
happen, then we just have tofigure out hey, how do we
communicate that we're not gonnasubject ourselves or our
families to this behavioranymore?
(36:44):
We love you and we care for you.
But I'm gonna make a decisionunemotionally now, detached from
any situation, for it doesn'tmatter if it's you or anyone
else.
No one else gets to come to myhouse and do X, y and Z.
No one, whether it's you orsome random guy off the street
or my pastor, my pastor can'tcome to my house and do this
(37:06):
either.
No one can.
There's no one allowed to comeinto my life and do these things
.
So it's not just you, it'severybody.
And then you just have to beable to have the conversation
and then just hold your groundand recognize that you are
available, that you have a planfor them to change and that you
are open to them being a part ofit.
But ultimately they've decidedI don't want any of those things
(37:29):
.
I want everything the way Iwant, when I want it.
And if that's the case, well,what world do you live in when
you get everything you want whenyou want it?
That's not reality.
Right.
Becca Wood (37:41):
Now I feel like that's a good example, because a
lot of people they strugglewith like how does forgiveness
and maybe tough love andboundaries and how does it all
like interact and how do younavigate and figure all of those
out?
So I feel like what you'resaying with the boundaries, that
is just like perfect, likepractical steps that we all can
(38:03):
do if we're ready to put thework in.
So maybe what are some otherlike practical steps that we can
take when we're trying toforgive or we're going through
that process with somebody?
Clint Nolder (38:18):
I think that forgiveness with other people
honestly is a three step processand it's not gonna sound as
practical, I think, as peoplewant it to be, but this is as
practical as it's gonna get thevery first step in forgiveness.
100% of the time there are noexceptions.
If you really wanna get thetruest form of forgiveness, the
(38:40):
very first step has to be thatyou have to recognize that God
has forgiven you first, like youcan't start anywhere else If
you start with them in mind, orthe actions in mind or the
motive in mind.
If you start anywhere else, thejourney to forgiveness is so
perilous, it's so difficult,it's so long If there's so many
obstacles.
(39:00):
You've gotta start with thereality of God has forgiven me,
like I've made mistakes in hisdirection, sometimes on purpose,
sometimes on accident, butsometimes knowingly.
I've completely looked at Godand said I don't care, I'm gonna
do it my way, I don't care ifit hurts you makes a difference
(39:21):
to me, I'm gonna do what I wannado.
And that God's response to meis Well, when you want to
acknowledge that I forgive youand I've already set the
forgiveness, peace and motionwith Jesus.
So that's step one is thatwe've got to realize God's
(39:42):
forgiveness.
Step two in forgiveness is notonly do we have to realize that
God has forgiven us, we have toforgive ourselves when we have
to come to a place that says youknow what, if God can move on
not that he forgot and justwiped it on the rug, but he
dealt with it If God can dealwith it and God can say you know
(40:04):
what, I still have plans andhopes and desires and dreams for
you to fulfill his will anddesire and kingdom living,
moving forward, like if he's gotthose things laid out for me
and even though he knows all ofthe internastiness that's
happened with me and it's allfor me forgiveness, then I
(40:27):
probably need to make sure thatI've forgiven myself and that I
can live with me, because Godcan live with me.
And when we have taken and donethe work to say you know what?
I know that I'm guilty of this,but every single time I well,
let me give you a practicalexample.
Let's talk about parents who, inhigh school, did some
(40:50):
questionable things.
Maybe they were underage,drinkers or got involved in
drugs.
And now they're saying well,how can I tell my kid not to do
that when I did that?
Well, the two things aren'tconnected, like they're not
connected at all.
What's best for your kid hasnothing to do with whether or
not you made that poor decisionsbefore Right.
(41:11):
Like the best thing for your.
Like we can't convince ourselvesthat because we know we did bad
and we haven't moved on fromwhat we've done.
That okay.
Well, we can't expect them tolisten to us Like how dare I
talk to them about it?
Like that's not the way thesethings work.
And so we've got to get to aplace where it's we acknowledge
that not only has God forgivenus, but I'm not gonna assume the
(41:35):
worst out of myself anymorebecause I believe Jesus can
change me and that he can takemy mistakes and my poor behavior
and allow me to leverage thatfor good moving forward.
And because of that we've gotto forgive ourselves and the
things that we've done.
And if we've allowed God toforgive us and we've forgiven
ourselves, then that's the lenswe wanna view whatever anybody
(41:59):
does to us through.
So, if you wrong me, I wannasee it through the lens of how
God forgave me and how God'sallowed me to forgive myself.
And now I've got you to thinkabout.
Well, I've already got positivemomentum, I've already got wins
and honestly, on a descendinglevel, the most important person
in the universe is God.
(42:20):
He's given me permission interms of forgiveness, and then I
moved into the second mostimportant person, which is my
responsibility for me.
Like I'm me, you know, I meanthere's no one I'm more
responsible for than myself,right?
And so now I've moved and Godhas given me the ability to move
into forgiveness myself.
(42:40):
And so the next piece are thepeople that I have no control
over.
Right, which is everybody right, even my own kids and my own
spouse.
Like I don't have control overthem, like I can influence, but
ultimately they are their ownperson too.
Well, now I move into thatcategory through the lens of God
forgiving me, me forgivingmyself.
And now I wanna figure out howto apply the same principles in
(43:03):
the first, two and the thirdsituation and that's what
ultimately Jesus was tellingPeter is.
And when we look at how muchGod has forgiven us for and we
look at the peace that God givesus, that rests in us, allows us
to forgive ourselves, that'show we need to look at other
people.
That's why we can say 70 timesseven, because God's like, 70
(43:26):
times 70 is even close to howmany times I've already forgiven
you.
Like, just keep counting, itjust keeps going up.
You know, in fact, there's nolimit.
Jesus made such an incrediblyenormous sacrifice on the cross
that you've got billions ofwrongs to go and you still won't
even reach the tip of theiceberg of the grace that I've
got for you, which is covered inforgiveness.
(43:49):
You know, and that's the way hewants us to view other people.
And again, it doesn't mean thatit's a you give him a blank
check to run you know nuts inyour life and continue to
destroy you.
It just means that, hey, I'mnot gonna feel this towards you
in a way that drags me down frommoving forward.
(44:09):
I'm not gonna necessarily trustyou because I have new
information about how you wannainteract in the world, but I am
gonna believe the best for you,I'm gonna hope the best for you,
pray the best for you, dreamthe best for you, and I know the
best for you is Jesus because,ultimately, ultimately, if they
(44:31):
were to find Jesus, real Jesus,then God's gonna take them
through the same thing of, hey,all those things that people are
having difficulty forgiving youfor, I forgive you.
And then he's gonna move intothe next step with them and say,
hey, even if they won't forgiveyou, you can forgive yourself.
And then he gets to the placeof all right.
(44:55):
Well, how do I handle, how do Ihandle all these wrongs that
I've done with people?
Will you handle it the same wayGod handled you, right, how did
you deal with it?
Well, you go and you have aconversation and say I don't
know what I was thinking.
I'm so sorry.
Yeah, you can talk aboutreconciliation.
My hope is to Jesus.
Followers could get pastanything, right.
Becca Wood (45:19):
Even if that other person doesn't necessarily want
to reconcile.
I feel like it is, forgiveness,is love and a true form of love
, because it's constantly beingintentional with trying to
forgive that person.
And, like you said, with thosesteps and really, however you
(45:43):
have to do it, to take thatprocess and that journey, I feel
like it's like you're sayingit's almost needed to get that,
whatever you're harboring andwhatever all that resentment,
it's so freeing to just kind oflet that go and not have that
burden on your heart because,like you said, you're carrying
(46:05):
that burden on your heart and itcould totally mask something
that you could have seen earlierthat you needed and I feel like
Jesus has totally equipped uswith those tools.
It's just like having toactually be intentional and open
our backpack and get our toolsout and kind of like we've
(46:25):
talked about in the past.
So yeah, and like you said,forgiving yourself I feel like
that by itself, too, is a huge,for some people is so difficult
to do to forgive yourself.
And do you think thatforgiveness, like, does it have
(46:47):
to be a linear?
Do you have to forgive yourselfbefore forgiving others?
Like, does it have to be maybein that order?
Clint Nolder (46:52):
I think it helps.
Yeah, I think it helps.
The difficult thing is ifyou're the person who's done the
wrong, it's difficult toforgive yourself before the
other person forgives you.
Right, because you're like, howcan I forgive myself if they
won't forgive me?
But eventually Jesus is gonnaconvince you that hey, just
(47:13):
because they're not doing whatI've asked them to do doesn't
mean that I haven't done what Iknow to be right, which means
I've forgiven you.
And so God is ultimately thepermission giver when it comes
to forgiveness.
If God can forgive, we havepermission to forgive them.
If God can forgive, we havepermission to forgive ourselves.
If God won't forgive, well thenno one has permission to do any
(47:33):
of those things.
But God, the Bible, shows usand tells us that he is faithful
and just to forgive us.
Like that's a legitimate thingthat he's going to do that, if
that's what we seek and desire,the forgiveness is ours.
If we want it, he's giving itto us through Jesus.
So he's the greatest permissiongiver.
(47:55):
So, however it works, that'sjust.
Typically, one of the easiestway to get to forgiveness is
when we view the lens of, whenwe view the other person through
the lens that we viewed our ownforgiveness with God and we
viewed our own forgiveness withourselves.
Because a lot of times the truthis is that it's easier to
(48:16):
forgive other people than it isto forgive ourselves.
But when we really have wrappedour minds around the reality of
God's, my permission giver ifhe's forgiven me, I can forgive
me that opens up a whole notherlevel of forgiveness and
reconciliation.
And dreaming for someone elseand praying for someone else
(48:37):
that probably wasn't there,because suddenly we're looking
through the same lens for them,that we pray for ourselves, like
we're praying for ourselvesthat God would use our future,
that, regardless of our past, hewould have a plan for us.
And if that is our prayer, thenfor them, that, regardless of
what they've done to me, let'snot ruin, let's not take away
(48:59):
everything that you hope anddream for them, god, but let
them step into it, let them findyou, in a way that it ignites a
future that they never hoped orimagined for.
And if that's the prayer wepray for them, the only way we
can know that prayer is if we'veprayed it for ourselves, it's
more powerful, it's more real.
When we've prayed it forourselves, because God's been
(49:20):
our permission giver, say, hey,this is doable.
I've forgiven you, I'veforgiven you, you forgive you,
and that you put those twothings together and all of a
sudden, we have the ability tounlock other people's futures
through the forgiveness that Godinitiated.
Becca Wood (49:37):
That's awesome.
Yeah, I really appreciate someof your insights because I think
that real people out there wantto know and have to struggle
with this.
So, you know, let's keep thosepractices in mind, keep those
boundaries in mind.
It's not on a timeline.
(49:58):
You're not on a timeline.
I think it's just beingintentional, being constant with
your forgiveness, with thoserelationships.
Yeah, so I really appreciatethat and I think that kind of
wraps it up for our forgivenesstalk.
If you guys have any othertopics that you want us to
(50:24):
uncover, you can text podcast.
Clint Nolder (50:28):
To 678-661-6330.
Becca Wood (50:33):
Yeah, because we would love to get some feedback
or get some new content outthere.
Clint Nolder (50:39):
Yeah.
Becca Wood (50:40):
So I really appreciate it.
Clint Nolder (50:41):
Cool.
Becca Wood (50:43):
Until next time.
Clint Nolder (50:45):
Yeah, episode 11 next time maybe.
Or 10 or 12.
Whatever I say, apparentlyObviously, I haven't forgiven
you, for whatever the number issupposed to be and I'm guessing
it's 10 because it's October Iactually don't know, so I have
no idea.
Becca Wood (50:59):
You know to be determined.
I like it.
Nevertheless, subscribe to ourchannel, justin Timberlake, if
you're still listening,subscribe.
Clint Nolder (51:11):
That's right.
Becca Wood (51:12):
And yeah, keep listening.
Clint Nolder (51:14):
Baby bye, bye, bye .
Becca Wood (51:16):
And we're out.
Welcome to the Flatbill Pastor podcast.
Clint Nolder (00:21):
Hello.
Becca Wood (00:21):
Hello, I am Becca and this is my friend.
Clint Nolder (00:25):
Clinton.
Becca Wood (00:26):
Hello Clinton.
Clint Nolder (00:27):
Thank you.
Becca Wood (00:28):
How are you?
Clint Nolder (00:29):
I'm Dandy.
I am feeling froggy, fresh andtoday is a good day.
Becca Wood (00:35):
I can feel that energy today.
I'm feeling it.
What they have not seen behindthe scenes is you singing this
morning and I'm here for it.
Clint Nolder (00:42):
Well, you know what?
You got?
An in sync shirt on, and it'sinspired me.
Bye, bye, bye.
Becca Wood (00:49):
Bye, bye, bye.
I'm so glad to inspire you allin sync.
Clint Nolder (00:53):
Yes, are they going to do a tour?
Becca Wood (00:56):
I hope so.
I've been on my knees praying.
I love me some in sync.
Justin, if you are listening,if you are tuning in, I'm
manifesting a tour.
Clint Nolder (01:08):
I think Justin Timberlake needs a Flatbill
Pastor.
Becca Wood (01:10):
Yeah.
Clint Nolder (01:11):
I think so.
Becca Wood (01:12):
I think so too.
Clint Nolder (01:14):
Yeah, jt, let's just talk.
Let's have a conversation,spiritual conversation, I'm up
for it.
Becca Wood (01:19):
All right, you hear, justin, we're talking to you,
that's right, it's gonna be.
Clint Nolder (01:23):
May I love it.
That's my best impression ofyou.
You sound better than that.
I sound better than that too,but it's on the film now.
Becca Wood (01:31):
We love it.
We love it, so let's just diveright into it.
Episode nine what, what, what.
Clint Nolder (01:39):
Oh, nine.
Yeah, we're in nine OctoberOctober which is crazy.
It is crazy, october, which youwould think October would be
episode 10.
Becca Wood (01:50):
You know, you would think, should we?
Just you?
Clint Nolder (01:54):
know pretend that.
Becca Wood (01:56):
Let's just like pretend, that didn't happen.
We're not a little Okay.
I haven't obviously had toomuch coffee.
I was excited on and see that'sright.
We're fast forwarding.
Clint Nolder (02:08):
We are fast forwarding, not through October,
because then we'd be at 11.
Becca Wood (02:10):
No, that's right.
Let's yeah, yeah, okay, so whatare we talking about, please?
Clint Nolder (02:17):
Not in sync in the tour or not a tour.
Becca Wood (02:18):
Please forgive me on all of these little mess ups.
Clint Nolder (02:23):
You know you're forgiven.
This is so easy.
Becca Wood (02:25):
So easy.
Speaking of.
That is today's topic.
Clint Nolder (02:30):
Yeah.
Becca Wood (02:30):
Forgiveness.
Clint Nolder (02:32):
Yeah, forgiveness, I think it's crazy hard.
Crazy hard to talk about andeven harder to do, but for sure
I think it's something thatevery single person on the
planet thinks about and likelystruggles with, so I think it's
(02:58):
it's worth putting the time into discuss that out loud.
Becca Wood (03:02):
For sure.
Can we start maybe by definingwhat forgiveness is, or maybe in
like a biblical context, ormaybe even a pastoral context?
What does that mean?
Clint Nolder (03:15):
Yeah.
So this is.
This is tough to put some wordsto it.
So if you were to look up theword forgiveness, it's going to
say something like the stophaving feelings of anger or
hostility or resentment towardssomeone for something that
they've done.
You know, and I think I thinkfrom a biblical standpoint
(03:36):
certainly, that that's part ofit, like, hey, I'm going to stop
having these feelings in thisdirection towards this person
for something that they've done.
But I also think it goes alittle bit further than just
okay, well, I don't feelsomething towards them.
I think there's something from abiblical hey, I want to follow
Jesus piece where it's not.
(03:56):
It's not just something thathappens in their direction,
there's also something thathappens internally with us when
we talk about forgiveness, andthere's a power that forgiveness
has that we really can'texperience when we're
experiencing unforgiveness.
But when we, when we decide tomake that trade, the trade our
(04:19):
forgiveness for ourunforgiveness, that's when we
realize just how powerfulforgiveness can be.
But it's it's hard to put wordsto, but it is more than just I
don't feel resentment or angertowards you anymore.
There's something deeper thanthat and I think that's probably
one of the things we willuncover as we continue the
discussion.
Becca Wood (04:40):
Yeah, for sure, because I think this is a huge
topic for anybody and everybody,because we are human and I feel
like this is one of the mosthuman things that we can
struggle with is forgiveness.
Clint Nolder (04:56):
Yeah, we're all human, except for whoever the
flight attendants or people wereon the back of that plane with
that lady, whoever she was.
You know I'm talking about.
They are not real.
They weren't, obviously theyweren't.
But I mean.
Everyone else, though, and andwhoever was in that box that
Mexico unveiled this past week?
I'm pretty sure I saw thatpicture of an alien in a box
(05:17):
with a thing on it that I thinkthat was a Mexican government.
If I remember reading thatcorrectly, it looked like like
ET.
Then they said it was a legitalien.
I don't know, maybe it was ahoax.
I didn't spend much timebecause you know, space is real
and that clearly was somethingthat someone made with some
plaster and paper mache.
(05:38):
But yeah, we're way off track,sorry.
Becca Wood (05:41):
No, it's fine, I was here for it.
Send me the link later for sure.
So I guess to me forgivingsomeone, it just kind of there's
a scale to it, I feel like, andyou know it's so easy to
forgive, you know, maybe so andso in the fast food line for
(06:01):
getting our order, maybe it'sfor some people, it's super easy
or not to forgive those people,but then there's also like the
people who are more difficult toforgive, maybe someone who's
like closer to you.
So I guess it's to like figuringout that like scale to have
like forgiveness too.
(06:23):
It also depends on likepersonal experiences and past
experiences.
Clint Nolder (06:29):
Yeah, I definitely think that when you say scale,
are you saying in terms of likewhether it's easy or not, like
it's a it's easy to difficultscale, or are you saying there's
different types of forgiveness?
I just want to make sure Iunderstand what you're saying.
Becca Wood (06:44):
Well, I guess both, but I wasn't thinking like that.
I was definitely thinking likeit's easier to forgive, you know
, like you know, oh, sally thebarista who gave you the wrong
coffee.
Yeah.
Like oh, it's fine, it's great.
I think that's a great way toget to know your family versus,
like some, you know, a familymember who continues or you know
(07:04):
, hurt you or whatever.
Clint Nolder (07:08):
And that just tends to be a little more
difficult to forgive.
Yeah, I would agree with that,I think I think when we talk
about our feelings, you know, wecan certainly make small things
into larger things.
And someone you know mess upour drink order, whatever,
(07:29):
typically, if we blow up on themand are having struggle,
struggles with forgiveness, it'sreally not about them, it's
about something else.
You know, that's has kind ofpiled up and become bigger than
you know what we anticipated itbeing and and it's just the
overflow that the barista is nowcatching from us.
When we talk about really largethings, our personal things, for
(07:51):
us, that with people that areclose to us, a lot of times that
deals with not just not justsomething they did, but
oftentimes things that weexpected them to do, where we
had this expectation and theyfelt short of it.
So it's not just their actions,it's aggravated or anger us.
(08:12):
It's the failing to meet theexpectations we had internally
for them.
And so there's really twopieces is they've made mistakes,
but also they haven't lived upto what we were hoping.
And so when you put those twothings together expectations,
and then this hope and desireand and the just failure that
happened.
(08:32):
You know the mistake that wasmade all of a sudden.
That runs a little deeper withus than just well, shoot.
I want to decaf and you gave mecaffeinated whatever.
I don't drink coffee, so Idon't know what you call
caffeinated coffee.
Becca Wood (08:46):
But yeah for sure, and that's a good point, the
expectations that people likefall short and I feel like that
is a huge challenge when we aretrying to navigate forgiveness.
And maybe their intentions aswell, because those are my two
at least, for like personally,if I think, because I feel like
(09:09):
too.
Maybe everyone has that oneperson or they don't I'm just
but myself over here but theycan think of that person that
they are either like trying toforgive or forgiven in the past,
and those are big pillars whilenavigating.
Forgiveness is likeexpectations and like intentions
.
What would you think about that?
(09:32):
Like the intentions behind itas well?
Clint Nolder (09:35):
Yeah, I think, I think we have the ability to
self-diagnose someone else'smotive, whether we're correct or
not, you know, I I think thatcomes and goes, um, but for sure
our mind jumps to.
Not only do I understand whatyou did, I now have jumped to.
Why would you do that?
And a lot of times we move tothe worst case scenario of
(09:55):
surely this is the explanationbehind their behavior.
That I also was unacceptable.
So it's, I've got anexpectation of you and who you
are, and you've missed that mark.
You've now done somethingactually that I can see, um, and
I'm disappointed in that action.
So now you've failed on theexpectation, you failed on the
action, and the third piecewould be what you're saying is
(10:16):
um, I also think that you did iton purpose, right, that your
intent wasn't even that youintended to make this mistake.
It wasn't like a oh, shoot,sorry, it was like no, you, you
purposely did this, um, that youknew my expectation and my
hopes for you.
You knew this was not somethingthat was okay and you did it on
purpose.
You put those three thingstogether and it's difficult to
(10:37):
move on from, it's difficult tostep into a season of
forgiveness with them, if allthree of those things exist a
mistake, um, a failure to meetan expectation, and you believe
it was intentionally done,that's uh, those are hard things
to overcome and I thinkeveryone can probably think of
someone in their life that kindof falls into that category.
(10:58):
I know, when I think throughthat I I remember many, many
Fridays where I sat on the frontporch of, uh, my house and
looked at the street waiting formy mom to come pick me up, and
she just never showed and Iwould just sit there and
(11:20):
eventually someone would comeoutside and say, hey, it's okay,
she'll be here next week, andmost weeks it was just an empty
street or out here at car coming.
We had these big Magnolia treesthat were sat right in the front
yard and it was huge, thisenormous Magnolia tree, and I
couldn't you couldn't seethrough it and of course I was
too young to like run out intothe street so I could sit on the
(11:41):
porch by myself and it wasprobably 30 or 40 feet to the
street, um, from our house, so Icould sit on the front porch
but I couldn't see past theMagnolia tree.
So I'd hear a car coming andI'd be like listening, like okay
, is it slowing down?
It's slowing down, slowing down, and it would just drive right
by.
And those I mean.
I still remember sitting on ourfront porch and the anger and
(12:03):
the resentment that started tobuild and form because it was a
mistake of not showing up whenyou're supposed to, it was a
failure to meet an expectationthat I had for someone that was,
you know that, close to me, um,and then I also you put that
third piece in there, like I.
I think you know good and wellwhat you're doing and you just
(12:25):
don't care, and that that is.
it has taken a long time.
You know, we go back to when Iwas eight, nine, 10, 11, 12
years old, 13.
Um, and I mean it's it'ssomething that it may have took
decades.
(12:48):
You know, at least two um for meto get to a place where, you
know, I felt like I could dowhat Jesus asked me to do with
that Um and it's, but it'sdifficult when those three
things exist together.
It's it's hard to move on, it'shard to sit in a place of peace
(13:08):
and forgiveness, um, when thosethings are so real to you, you
know, uh, and I.
The other side of it, though,is, I think it's also gorgeous
the way that God's made us, thatwe are so connected to people
and that we do have that abilityto have expectations for
(13:28):
someone who's supposed to carefor us, and that so many times,
people meet those expectations,right, that God's given us a
heart and a desire to love andto care and to be a part of one
another's lives, and when thosepeople show up, um, it changes
the meaning of life for us.
You know, like, all of a sudden, there's this overwhelming
(13:50):
sense of this is a good moment,uh, and I wouldn't trade these
experiences for anything,because I'm with the people that
I care about and that reallygenuinely care about me, and
this is what life is for.
You know, when we think aboutthe community aspect of how God
has created us.
I mean this is good and sothere's there's a positive thing
with it and, honestly, for usto enjoy those moments where
(14:15):
everyone meets thoseexpectations which and I'm not
saying that everyone'sexpectations or everyone, all
the expectations I have forpeople are right.
But you know, I mean there'sgeneral expectations we have
with friends or or good friendsand families and those kind of
things and those, thoseexpectations typically are
reasonable.
And so when, when people meetthose expectations, we have this
(14:36):
extreme high.
But the reason it's such agreat high for us to experience
is because we also have it tocompare to the worst moments
where people didn't meet thoseexpectations, intentionally or
unintentionally.
We still know what it's like tosit on a front porch and know
one show which makes the momentswhen people show that much
(14:56):
sweeter, you know, and so it's.
It's, it's a, it's a good and abad thing, I guess, is what I'm
saying.
It it we get.
We get to experience both as aspeople.
Becca Wood (15:07):
No, yeah, that's a really good way I mean, I
haven't necessarily thought ofit that way um, in retrospect,
flipping it, um, so that's agood insight, I guess now,
though, so you have been hurtwhy is it so important to
forgive, and why does maybeJesus think we should forgive?
Clint Nolder (15:29):
Yeah, Um, I think, how do we can get there?
When we think about forgiveness, there's one moment where you
know Jesus is is so radical andradically different in terms of
the way we interact with otherpeople relative to what we would
naturally do.
There's a moment, um in in hisown story, where one of his
(15:51):
really close friends comes andasks him and they're just kind
of walking through someinterpersonal expectations that
they have with other people, andhe's like hey, how many times
should I forgive someone?
You know seven times, you know.
And and Jesus is like no, hegives us just crazy number like
70 times.
Seven times, you know, andthat's a lot, that's a lot of
(16:12):
forgiving.
Um, and then the really goodfriend, like he was thinking
like seven times is a prettystinking also amount of times,
like that's a really that's alike.
If I'm forgiving you seventimes, then I'm doing you a
solid.
And Jesus is like look, evenyour extreme hasn't even gotten
(16:33):
to the expectation.
Let's just this is blow thisthing out of the water.
Um, you should forgive just acrazy amount of times.
So that's Jesus's expectation.
And so that would then lead usto the question Jesus, why would
you ask us to submit ourselvesto that many wrongdoings, like
(16:58):
why are you okay with that?
Why would you even put into ourminds that we could have the
expectation of ourselves to beinvolved with other people that
would wrong us that many timesand then have the expectation
that we would continue toforgive them that many times?
That's a lot of times forsomeone to make a mistake in our
(17:21):
direction, intentionally orunintentionally still a mistake
in our direction.
That's a lot of times, jesus,and I think what we wanna get
stuck on is golly, that's a lotof abuse that we're submitting
ourselves to.
But that's not the point Jesuswas trying to make.
And Jesus was trying to show usthat, hey, it doesn't matter how
many times something happens toyou that you don't deserve.
(17:44):
What ultimately matters is youdon't want what happens to you,
however many times it happens,to affect what's next for you,
and if you can't forgive, thenthat's what's happened.
So, in other words, what willhappen to you in your own
unforgiveness is worse than whathappened to you that you are
(18:07):
struggling to forgive, right, isit?
Look, the things that happeninternally and externally as a
result of you not being able toforgive someone is well worse
than whatever they did to you,because it just locks us up and
now we can think of things likeman.
There are some really terriblethings people can do to us and I
agree there are some awfulthings people can do to us.
(18:29):
But if we think about itproportionally, a lot of times
those really awful things thathappened to us then cause these
after effects that are sometimesreliving it.
It feels internally, at leastwhen I think through some of
those things that have happenedto me.
It's like I'm experiencing itall over again, over and over,
and over and over again.
I'm saying man, but forgivenesshas this spiritual component to
(18:54):
it when we're followers of Jesus.
That doesn't make what happenedto us okay and it doesn't get
rid of it, but it does bring usa peace that doesn't make a lot
of sense to anybody else, whichis a promise that God gives
throughout.
The biblical narrative is thatI have peace that passes any of
your understanding, and so wehave things that have happened
(19:14):
to us and because we begin tofollow the path that Jesus has
set for us in the way we handlewhen wrongs have happened to us,
he gifts us this peace thatdoesn't come from in us.
It's not something that weconjure up on our own.
It's a result of the spirit ofGod working in our life.
It's a peace that only he canprovide, and when we look at our
(19:36):
circumstances, it makes nosense that we would be able to
move forward peacefully with thetrauma we've experienced.
I don't understand how ithappens.
The only explanation is Godgives it, and so the reason that
we ought to forgive is becauseGod's got something more for us
that's waiting on us after we'vegone through whatever bad or
(20:00):
poor or tragic or traumaticexperience that someone has put
us through.
There's more for us.
Our life is not finished.
God still has more for us tostep into, and he knows Jesus
knows that if we walk forward orattempt to walk forward into
that with unforgiveness insideof us, we are not going to
fulfill everything that Jesuswants for us Because we're being
(20:21):
weighed down.
That's what unforgiveness is,is shackles around our feet
which we didn't put there,someone else put there because
they did us wrong.
And so now we've got two issues.
We've got the issue of thetragedy they caused in our life,
or the trauma or the mistake orwhatever it is they've caused
in our life, but now we've alsogot the ball and chain that
comes with unforgiveness that isdragging us down, so that every
(20:44):
time we walk into anothersituation, this unforgiveness
piece is still hanging over ourhead and we use that as the lens
to view the next person infront of us.
And if we use that lens to viewwhoever God's gonna put in our
path in the future, we mightmiss out on some of the greatest
relationships we could haveever imagined, because we're
(21:04):
still looking at them throughthe lens of someone else's
mistake and our inability to letit go.
And when I say let it go, Idon't mean just to like pretend
it never happened, right?
Because for sure I mean God'sgonna hold every single one of
us accountable for the thingsthat we've done, so it's not
like, hey, things have neverhappened.
And for sure, if we walkforward, it doesn't mean that
(21:28):
they're exempt from consequences.
It just means that we areexempting ourselves from giving
ourselves more consequencesbecause of their stupid decision
or poor decision or recklessdecision.
You know.
Becca Wood (21:43):
Yeah, for sure, because I feel like a lot of
people they don't want toforgive and they don't wanna
relinquish control back to thatperson, or they feel like it's
almost like a weakness, but it'sactually quite the opposite,
and so my question now is sowhat are boundaries that are
(22:08):
maybe healthy that we could setup, because I feel like, okay,
let's just forgive and forget,forgive and forget.
We're out here like Oprahgiving free forgiveness for
everybody.
Like what is an ideal I don'tknow when we forgive to actually
move on and have thoseboundaries in place.
Clint Nolder (22:31):
For sure.
There's a difference betweenforgiveness and trust, and you
can offer someone forgivenessand not offer them your trust.
And so I don't think there'sthis idea of forgive and forget,
because when we forgive andforget, we forgive and pretend
right, we're gonna pretend likethat never happened.
Well, that's not whatforgiveness is.
(22:53):
It's just saying, hey, you knowwhat?
There's nothing else I can doto hold you accountable.
If it's a legal thing, thenthere's a court system that's
gonna take care of you.
If it's not a legal thing, thenI'm gonna trust God that His
justice is gonna be fine, butI'm not gonna allow your issues
to dictate what I'm gonna bemoving forward.
And so I'm gonna stop harboringthis bitterness and resentment
(23:15):
towards you, because I thinkJesus gives me this ability,
this spiritual ability, to sayyou know what, I'm gonna let it
go.
But when you let it go and youbegin to move forward and move
on, that doesn't mean that youhave to trust them the same way,
trusting them is not connectedto forgiveness, right, it's not
(23:40):
a hey, if I'm gonna forgive younow, I'm gonna trust you like I
did previously.
That's not what the expectationis.
And so when we talk aboutboundaries, boundaries are
important, especially if we knowlike, hey, at the end of the
(24:01):
day, just because we forgivesomeone doesn't mean they wanted
to be forgiven.
So someone might have anoffense towards you.
They might think that it wasn'ta big deal but it ruined you.
Right, so you can forgive themand they might not even feel
(24:23):
like they need to be forgiven.
They might not even feel likethey need to be forgiven.
So for sure, you're still notgoing to trust them because they
don't realize that they didanything wrong.
They still think that there wasno issue.
So you can move on and say youknow, I'm not going to hold this
, they're not going to hold thisagain, like where it's going to
make me feel this bitternessand anger towards you.
(24:43):
I'm not going to do thatanymore.
I'm going to say it is what itis, but I'm I'm starting to
trust that.
That you're going to do rightby me moving forward Like I've
now learned something that'sgoing to teach me.
Hey, this is, this is probablynot what's up, it's just.
Experiences are still, is stillinformation that helps form our
worldview.
So let's pretend, for example,I'm trying to think is in the
(25:07):
mouth of my head.
Let's pretend, for example,let's take an extreme example,
right, let's, let's, let's talkabout abuse, physical harm,
abuse, and let's say.
Let's say someone has abusedyou, right, in a relationship
like boyfriend, girlfriend,right, and the boyfriend is
(25:29):
abusing, physically, abusing thegirlfriend.
Like you can separate, move onfrom that relationship, forgive
the person.
Maybe there's legalconsequences.
Hopefully someone has helpedyou with the courage to say
something to someone and there'sprobably some legal
(25:49):
consequences for that guy.
But you can.
You can still forgive them,even though he's going through
those consequences.
He can even be sorry, right.
Let's just say he's sorry andremorseful.
We can still forgive him, right.
However, we can still moveforward with information we have
.
We don't have to forget thatinformation to make a better
decision.
Let's just say he goes onparole Like it's legit, like hey
(26:12):
, we can, there's a convictionwhen maybe even went to prison,
whatever, and he gets out andthen all of a sudden there's an
opportunity to have arelationship moving forward.
You still get to make adecision with full forgiveness,
to say you know what, this isprobably not a relationship I'm
going to get into and it's thesame as us having an information
.
Let's just pretend that you'rethe second girlfriend and or the
(26:34):
second potential person and hejust got out of prison and you
know like, okay, you were inprison for beating the person
you were in a relationshippreviously, so that wasn't even
against you.
But you can still use thatknowledge and say you know what,
I don't know if I'm going tomove forward in a relationship.
So it's when we experiencesomething or we see something
(26:54):
else.
It's still information we canuse to make a better decision.
To go forward has nothing to dowith forgiveness.
It's just hey, I'm going to usewhat I know to set a boundary
or to avoid an interaction.
Moving forward has nothing todo with the forgiveness side of
things, which I think is arealistic way for us to interact
(27:15):
with other people.
I get it.
It's this part of it, even withJesus.
You know, jesus looks at us andeverybody says, well, God
forgives and forgets.
No, he doesn't.
He didn't forget.
No, if he forgot, jesus doesn'tdie on the cross.
Like, god forgives and thenremembers.
(27:35):
And then Jesus experiencesevery single punishment and
peace and agony that we'resupposed to.
God doesn't forget and move on.
No, god punished Jesus for itand there's no way around it.
So God doesn't even do that.
I mean we'll read like okay, heputs our sins as far as the
(27:58):
East is from the West.
Right, that's this reallyfamous song.
And we think, okay, well,that's, he separated us.
Yeah, that's true, but Jesusstill paid for it.
God didn't just sweep it underthe rung, it pretended didn't
happen.
In fact, god knew that therewas going to be offenses made
towards him.
He created the idea offorgiveness, created the cross,
(28:23):
put his son on the cross andthen he allowed the whole thing
to happen because he knew, hey,I'm not just going to pretend,
I'm going to use what I know isgoing to happen and I'm going to
make a path forward and that'swhat Jesus was ultimately.
And we get the benefits of that, where it's almost like, you
know, we had never sinned.
(28:44):
But it's not quite like we hadnever sinned, because the
reality is Jesus still died forour sins, you know.
So God doesn't even work in thereality of.
Oh well, we'll just pretendlike this never happened before.
Becca Wood (28:58):
Right.
So does that mean that you cannecessarily?
Or forgiveness andreconciliation do they have to
go hand in hand?
Or do you need one for theother, or is the one
prerequisite?
Clint Nolder (29:13):
Yeah, I think it's very.
I don't know if you canreconcile without forgiveness.
The question is is when youtalk about reconciliation, the
Bible tells us that we ought tobe ministers of reconciliation
or people who are serving inreconciliation.
Now, when we talk aboutreconciling, I don't think
there's a requirement for thingsto go back to the way they were
(29:35):
, but I think reconciling istied to forgiveness in that, hey
, we can move forward in a wayit's.
I mean, one of the greatestexamples we've got is the
shooting that happened inCharleston.
The church and an incrediblepicture of grace and
(29:55):
reconciliation were the familiesof those victims that said, hey
, we forgive you.
On national television.
And then the trial and say, hey, we forgive you.
Staring at a person that killedtheir kids or their brother
sisters, hey, we forgive you.
And wanting to just say, hey,things are okay with us or
between us.
I just can't imagine how to getthere.
(30:15):
But again, that's also thisthing that Jesus gives us.
That makes no sense to us.
But somehow we found a way tohave peace and to reconcile.
Now does that mean thatrelationship is going to be a
good relationship?
Killer and victims, familiesLike they're reconciled?
No, reconciliation is not nowwe're BFFs, right, but it is
(30:35):
saying that whatever it is thatSatan could use between you and
I, I'm going to squash that sothat God's will and plan for me
isn't hindered by some ball andchain that exists between you
and me.
That's what we're going toreconcile is hey, at the end of
the day, at the end of the day,I don't understand why you made
your decision.
(30:56):
It hurts, I'll never.
I'll never be able to move onlike, forget that moment,
whatever.
But I'm not going to give youpower to stop me from whatever
God has in front of me and I'mcertainly not going to give you
space in between my ears when Igo to sleep at night, where
(31:16):
you're going to dominate mythoughts.
I'm going to do that anymoreand I'm going to be the person
that says hey, my hope for youis you fall in love with Jesus
and that at some point, at somepoint, you decide to give Jesus
every piece and part of yourlife.
And I pray that for you and Ihope for that, you for you, and
(31:38):
I want that for you, wish it foryou, if anything.
That's what I dream for you andI think that's where
reconciliation and forgivenesskind of intermix, intermingle,
intertwine.
Becca Wood (31:52):
Yeah, which is so much easier said than done.
And, like you said, I meanthese are just like crazy
stories that you hear, like how,that's just unfathomable, like
how can we forgive?
I mean, even speaking, you know, as a Christian, like it's just
sometimes just like, oh, how dowe even get there?
And two, like personally, it'sthe people that maybe, like
(32:20):
continue to hurt you.
And, like you said, like oh,you should always just keep keep
forgiving and keep settingboundaries.
But I guess some people stillstruggle with, like the thought
of it's like maybe, like as afamily member, you can't like
leave your family, you can't get.
I mean, maybe you can, maybeyou can, but in certain
situations it's like the personlike this is forever, this is my
(32:42):
life and I'm with that personforever.
How, how do we even navigatethat?
Clint Nolder (32:47):
I think you well.
First of all, when it comes tofamily situations, you've got to
have the willingness to have aconversation outside of the
family.
I would, I would recommend yougo and speak with a pastor or,
even better, probably acounselor that specializes in
interpersonal relationships, inparticular, healthy families,
(33:07):
and you want to have aconversation about, hey, what
does it look like?
Because you're right, we're notgetting rid of family, but we
can create boundaries, right?
So let's, let's talk a littlebit.
Let's give a real, specificexample.
Let's let's give an example ofa parent that has an addiction
issue and is wrapped up inaddiction and, you know, has
(33:33):
made a lot of poor decisions foras long as you can think of,
and they continue to live inthat world of addiction and the
cycle that happens, right?
Well, obviously, let's say, ifit's a parent like you're stuck
with them, like you can't, youdon't get new parents, right,
they're going to be there untilthey're not there, and and so
(33:54):
what you've got to come to theconclusion of is that you can be
a part of their life, but youdon't give free reign into your
life for just anyone andeveryone, even regardless of
whether they're blood or youknow, long-term connections, and
so I would encourage someonewho's got a parent as addicted.
(34:15):
I would say hey, look, alwaysanswer the phone they call, pick
it up.
If it's inconvenient for you,that's okay.
Pick up the phone If they call,be available.
But then you can also setboundaries of hey.
My answer is always going to beno.
When you ask me for money, Iwill always be here to talk with
(34:36):
you, but if you're showing anysigns or symptoms of being on
something, you're not going tohave access to my kids.
I'm not going to tell my kidsanymore that you said you're
going to show up, because Idon't want to disappoint them.
So whenever you show up fromnow on, it'll be a surprise for
them, which they love surprises.
(34:56):
So feel free.
Feel free to show up.
So, whatever is happening, andif you're sober, it's obvious to
me when you're sober, we can'thide it.
So you're always welcome tosober.
But you can call and tell meyou're coming, and I'm still not
going to tell them, because Ifigured out a way to deal with
(35:18):
the disappointment, but they'retoo young to have to figure that
out, and so they'll just getsurprised by whatever the name
is grandmother, granddaddy,whatever it is and I think
you've got to set up thoseboundaries.
And again, I think you've gotto rely on Jesus to give you the
peace for those boundaries.
And certainly there's otherthings, right.
(35:38):
I mean you might say, hey, look, when it comes to addiction and
those poor choices, you mightsay, well, I want to be involved
, I want to help with rehab orwhatever.
So you can always give optionsLike hey, I'll always answer the
phone the moment you want toget help.
I'll be your biggest advocate.
I've already done the research.
I've got two or three placesthat you could look into right
(36:01):
now.
So as soon as you want to dosomething and move forward, I'll
help you.
Like, you sit in that positionand that posture and ultimately
you're still have a life withthem.
But it's up to them whether ornot they want to do the right
things, to be fully involved inyour life or not, and so you
have the ability to remove thatresponsibility from you.
(36:22):
That wasn't yours to begin with, but sometimes we feel like
it's ours to begin with and Ithink that that's applicable
across all lines.
It doesn't matter what thewrong is, it's been done to us.
If there's something that'sinappropriate that continues to
happen, then we just have tofigure out hey, how do we
communicate that we're not gonnasubject ourselves or our
families to this behavioranymore?
(36:44):
We love you and we care for you.
But I'm gonna make a decisionunemotionally now, detached from
any situation, for it doesn'tmatter if it's you or anyone
else.
No one else gets to come to myhouse and do X, y and Z.
No one, whether it's you orsome random guy off the street
or my pastor, my pastor can'tcome to my house and do this
(37:06):
either.
No one can.
There's no one allowed to comeinto my life and do these things
.
So it's not just you, it'severybody.
And then you just have to beable to have the conversation
and then just hold your groundand recognize that you are
available, that you have a planfor them to change and that you
are open to them being a part ofit.
But ultimately they've decidedI don't want any of those things
(37:29):
.
I want everything the way Iwant, when I want it.
And if that's the case, well,what world do you live in when
you get everything you want whenyou want it?
That's not reality.
Right.
Becca Wood (37:41):
Now I feel like that's a good example, because a
lot of people they strugglewith like how does forgiveness
and maybe tough love andboundaries and how does it all
like interact and how do younavigate and figure all of those
out?
So I feel like what you'resaying with the boundaries, that
is just like perfect, likepractical steps that we all can
(38:03):
do if we're ready to put thework in.
So maybe what are some otherlike practical steps that we can
take when we're trying toforgive or we're going through
that process with somebody?
Clint Nolder (38:18):
I think that forgiveness with other people
honestly is a three step processand it's not gonna sound as
practical, I think, as peoplewant it to be, but this is as
practical as it's gonna get thevery first step in forgiveness.
100% of the time there are noexceptions.
If you really wanna get thetruest form of forgiveness, the
(38:40):
very first step has to be thatyou have to recognize that God
has forgiven you first, like youcan't start anywhere else If
you start with them in mind, orthe actions in mind or the
motive in mind.
If you start anywhere else, thejourney to forgiveness is so
perilous, it's so difficult,it's so long If there's so many
obstacles.
(39:00):
You've gotta start with thereality of God has forgiven me,
like I've made mistakes in hisdirection, sometimes on purpose,
sometimes on accident, butsometimes knowingly.
I've completely looked at Godand said I don't care, I'm gonna
do it my way, I don't care ifit hurts you makes a difference
(39:21):
to me, I'm gonna do what I wannado.
And that God's response to meis Well, when you want to
acknowledge that I forgive youand I've already set the
forgiveness, peace and motionwith Jesus.
So that's step one is thatwe've got to realize God's
(39:42):
forgiveness.
Step two in forgiveness is notonly do we have to realize that
God has forgiven us, we have toforgive ourselves when we have
to come to a place that says youknow what, if God can move on
not that he forgot and justwiped it on the rug, but he
dealt with it If God can dealwith it and God can say you know
(40:04):
what, I still have plans andhopes and desires and dreams for
you to fulfill his will anddesire and kingdom living,
moving forward, like if he's gotthose things laid out for me
and even though he knows all ofthe internastiness that's
happened with me and it's allfor me forgiveness, then I
(40:27):
probably need to make sure thatI've forgiven myself and that I
can live with me, because Godcan live with me.
And when we have taken and donethe work to say you know what?
I know that I'm guilty of this,but every single time I well,
let me give you a practicalexample.
Let's talk about parents who, inhigh school, did some
(40:50):
questionable things.
Maybe they were underage,drinkers or got involved in
drugs.
And now they're saying well,how can I tell my kid not to do
that when I did that?
Well, the two things aren'tconnected, like they're not
connected at all.
What's best for your kid hasnothing to do with whether or
not you made that poor decisionsbefore Right.
(41:11):
Like the best thing for your.
Like we can't convince ourselvesthat because we know we did bad
and we haven't moved on fromwhat we've done.
That okay.
Well, we can't expect them tolisten to us Like how dare I
talk to them about it?
Like that's not the way thesethings work.
And so we've got to get to aplace where it's we acknowledge
that not only has God forgivenus, but I'm not gonna assume the
(41:35):
worst out of myself anymorebecause I believe Jesus can
change me and that he can takemy mistakes and my poor behavior
and allow me to leverage thatfor good moving forward.
And because of that we've gotto forgive ourselves and the
things that we've done.
And if we've allowed God toforgive us and we've forgiven
ourselves, then that's the lenswe wanna view whatever anybody
(41:59):
does to us through.
So, if you wrong me, I wannasee it through the lens of how
God forgave me and how God'sallowed me to forgive myself.
And now I've got you to thinkabout.
Well, I've already got positivemomentum, I've already got wins
and honestly, on a descendinglevel, the most important person
in the universe is God.
(42:20):
He's given me permission interms of forgiveness, and then I
moved into the second mostimportant person, which is my
responsibility for me.
Like I'm me, you know, I meanthere's no one I'm more
responsible for than myself,right?
And so now I've moved and Godhas given me the ability to move
into forgiveness myself.
(42:40):
And so the next piece are thepeople that I have no control
over.
Right, which is everybody right, even my own kids and my own
spouse.
Like I don't have control overthem, like I can influence, but
ultimately they are their ownperson too.
Well, now I move into thatcategory through the lens of God
forgiving me, me forgivingmyself.
And now I wanna figure out howto apply the same principles in
(43:03):
the first, two and the thirdsituation and that's what
ultimately Jesus was tellingPeter is.
And when we look at how muchGod has forgiven us for and we
look at the peace that God givesus, that rests in us, allows us
to forgive ourselves, that'show we need to look at other
people.
That's why we can say 70 timesseven, because God's like, 70
(43:26):
times 70 is even close to howmany times I've already forgiven
you.
Like, just keep counting, itjust keeps going up.
You know, in fact, there's nolimit.
Jesus made such an incrediblyenormous sacrifice on the cross
that you've got billions ofwrongs to go and you still won't
even reach the tip of theiceberg of the grace that I've
got for you, which is covered inforgiveness.
(43:49):
You know, and that's the way hewants us to view other people.
And again, it doesn't mean thatit's a you give him a blank
check to run you know nuts inyour life and continue to
destroy you.
It just means that, hey, I'mnot gonna feel this towards you
in a way that drags me down frommoving forward.
(44:09):
I'm not gonna necessarily trustyou because I have new
information about how you wannainteract in the world, but I am
gonna believe the best for you,I'm gonna hope the best for you,
pray the best for you, dreamthe best for you, and I know the
best for you is Jesus because,ultimately, ultimately, if they
(44:31):
were to find Jesus, real Jesus,then God's gonna take them
through the same thing of, hey,all those things that people are
having difficulty forgiving youfor, I forgive you.
And then he's gonna move intothe next step with them and say,
hey, even if they won't forgiveyou, you can forgive yourself.
And then he gets to the placeof all right.
(44:55):
Well, how do I handle, how do Ihandle all these wrongs that
I've done with people?
Will you handle it the same wayGod handled you, right, how did
you deal with it?
Well, you go and you have aconversation and say I don't
know what I was thinking.
I'm so sorry.
Yeah, you can talk aboutreconciliation.
My hope is to Jesus.
Followers could get pastanything, right.
Becca Wood (45:19):
Even if that other person doesn't necessarily want
to reconcile.
I feel like it is, forgiveness,is love and a true form of love
, because it's constantly beingintentional with trying to
forgive that person.
And, like you said, with thosesteps and really, however you
(45:43):
have to do it, to take thatprocess and that journey, I feel
like it's like you're sayingit's almost needed to get that,
whatever you're harboring andwhatever all that resentment,
it's so freeing to just kind oflet that go and not have that
burden on your heart because,like you said, you're carrying
(46:05):
that burden on your heart and itcould totally mask something
that you could have seen earlierthat you needed and I feel like
Jesus has totally equipped uswith those tools.
It's just like having toactually be intentional and open
our backpack and get our toolsout and kind of like we've
(46:25):
talked about in the past.
So yeah, and like you said,forgiving yourself I feel like
that by itself, too, is a huge,for some people is so difficult
to do to forgive yourself.
And do you think thatforgiveness, like, does it have
(46:47):
to be a linear?
Do you have to forgive yourselfbefore forgiving others?
Like, does it have to be maybein that order?
Clint Nolder (46:52):
I think it helps.
Yeah, I think it helps.
The difficult thing is ifyou're the person who's done the
wrong, it's difficult toforgive yourself before the
other person forgives you.
Right, because you're like, howcan I forgive myself if they
won't forgive me?
But eventually Jesus is gonnaconvince you that hey, just
(47:13):
because they're not doing whatI've asked them to do doesn't
mean that I haven't done what Iknow to be right, which means
I've forgiven you.
And so God is ultimately thepermission giver when it comes
to forgiveness.
If God can forgive, we havepermission to forgive them.
If God can forgive, we havepermission to forgive ourselves.
If God won't forgive, well thenno one has permission to do any
(47:33):
of those things.
But God, the Bible, shows usand tells us that he is faithful
and just to forgive us.
Like that's a legitimate thingthat he's going to do that, if
that's what we seek and desire,the forgiveness is ours.
If we want it, he's giving itto us through Jesus.
So he's the greatest permissiongiver.
(47:55):
So, however it works, that'sjust.
Typically, one of the easiestway to get to forgiveness is
when we view the lens of, whenwe view the other person through
the lens that we viewed our ownforgiveness with God and we
viewed our own forgiveness withourselves.
Because a lot of times the truthis is that it's easier to
(48:16):
forgive other people than it isto forgive ourselves.
But when we really have wrappedour minds around the reality of
God's, my permission giver ifhe's forgiven me, I can forgive
me that opens up a whole notherlevel of forgiveness and
reconciliation.
And dreaming for someone elseand praying for someone else
(48:37):
that probably wasn't there,because suddenly we're looking
through the same lens for them,that we pray for ourselves, like
we're praying for ourselvesthat God would use our future,
that, regardless of our past, hewould have a plan for us.
And if that is our prayer, thenfor them, that, regardless of
what they've done to me, let'snot ruin, let's not take away
(48:59):
everything that you hope anddream for them, god, but let
them step into it, let them findyou, in a way that it ignites a
future that they never hoped orimagined for.
And if that's the prayer wepray for them, the only way we
can know that prayer is if we'veprayed it for ourselves, it's
more powerful, it's more real.
When we've prayed it forourselves, because God's been
(49:20):
our permission giver, say, hey,this is doable.
I've forgiven you, I'veforgiven you, you forgive you,
and that you put those twothings together and all of a
sudden, we have the ability tounlock other people's futures
through the forgiveness that Godinitiated.
Becca Wood (49:37):
That's awesome.
Yeah, I really appreciate someof your insights because I think
that real people out there wantto know and have to struggle
with this.
So, you know, let's keep thosepractices in mind, keep those
boundaries in mind.
It's not on a timeline.
(49:58):
You're not on a timeline.
I think it's just beingintentional, being constant with
your forgiveness, with thoserelationships.
Yeah, so I really appreciatethat and I think that kind of
wraps it up for our forgivenesstalk.
If you guys have any othertopics that you want us to
(50:24):
uncover, you can text podcast.
Clint Nolder (50:28):
To 678-661-6330.
Becca Wood (50:33):
Yeah, because we would love to get some feedback
or get some new content outthere.
Clint Nolder (50:39):
Yeah.
Becca Wood (50:40):
So I really appreciate it.
Clint Nolder (50:41):
Cool.
Becca Wood (50:43):
Until next time.
Clint Nolder (50:45):
Yeah, episode 11 next time maybe.
Or 10 or 12.
Whatever I say, apparentlyObviously, I haven't forgiven
you, for whatever the number issupposed to be and I'm guessing
it's 10 because it's October Iactually don't know, so I have
no idea.
Becca Wood (50:59):
You know to be determined.
I like it.
Nevertheless, subscribe to ourchannel, justin Timberlake, if
you're still listening,subscribe.
Clint Nolder (51:11):
That's right.
Becca Wood (51:12):
And yeah, keep listening.
Clint Nolder (51:14):
Baby bye, bye, bye .
Becca Wood (51:16):
And we're out.
Popular Podcasts
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.