May 16, 2025 • 61 mins
In this episode of Flow Stars, we're joined by Anis Larbi, Medical & Scientific Affairs, Beckman Coulter Life Sciences.
Anis chats about his experience working at the prestigious A*STAR in Singapore, where he led a dual career as both a principal investigator and the head of a core flow cytometry facility.
He also shares his advocacy of networking, explains this inspired him to make the leap from academia to industry and discusses some of the snobbery some academics have about this transition.
Watch or listen to all episodes of Flow Stars: flowstars.bitesizebio.com
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Intro/Outro (00:00):
Welcome to Flow Stars, candid conversations
between doctor Peter O'Toole andthe big hitters of flow
cytometry brought to you byBeckman Coulter at Bite Size
Bio.
Peter O'Toole (00:11):
Hello, and welcome to Flow Stars. And
today, I have Anis Labbe fromBeckman Coulter Life Sciences
who was an academic, and heshares how he picked up his
English speaking skills topresent at a networking event in
Sicily. His views on whetherpostdocing is a job or a passion
(00:31):
project, and finding his impactin industry. All this in today's
episode. Hi. I'm Peter O'Toolefrom the University of York, and
welcome to this episode ofFlowstar. Today, I'm joined by
Anis Lapi from actually BeckmanCoulter to themselves. Anis, how
(00:52):
are you today?
Anis Larbi (00:54):
Very good. It's been a nice day, nice week. Winter is
coming, enjoying it, and thanksfor the invitation.
Peter O'Toole (01:01):
It's a pleasure. And for the audience wondering,
actually, I approached Kumtor toask if they had someone we could
talk to who'd flipped from anacademic career to the dark
side. I'm joking when I say thedark side, but we will talk
about this in a bit. Because Ithink it's you know, when we
were in academia, you all knowthis, Annis, there's only
(01:23):
limited possibilities of whereyou can go. You know, it is like
all careers. There's a pyramid.Yeah. And you're gonna get stuck
at some point, and academia hassome advantages and
disadvantages. But it's quitebrave, I feel, to jump across
out of the world of act our cozyworld of academia into a from an
(01:44):
from an outside perspective,maybe a more ruthless world, a
commercial corporate business.So let let's establish where you
came from to start with, ifthat's okay.
Where what was your what wasyour first degree in?
Anis Larbi (01:59):
Actually, I did my undergrad in France in the city
of Lyon where actually I grewup, and I'm from the city of
Lyon with an undergrad inbiological sciences. Okay? And
this was some time back, twentyfive years ago. And there was
(02:22):
the opportunity actually to do,like, in to do some, like,
internship post post degree.They had also the possibility to
to do that abroad. So there wasthis professor in in the
university. His her name isMarie. I always remember people
(02:47):
that actually were quiteimportant in driving some of my
career. And she said, oh, maybeyou should go to Canada because
she has some family there. Andshe said the spirit for research
there is very nice, very open.And then I find myself a couple
of months after my degree inCanada for internship. And so
(03:11):
this was in a research lab inthe city of Sherbrooke in the
lab of professor Thomas Phillip.You know, he's a scientist in
working in the field ofimmunology, and my role was to
put in practice what I havelearned. You know? And I did
this for nine months. It was
Peter O'Toole (03:32):
Oh, a nine month internship.
Anis Larbi (03:33):
Yeah. It was a it was a it's true. It's a long
internship, but this is to kindof validate undergrad plus one.
You know? It's like anotherdegree.
Peter O'Toole (03:43):
Okay. Yeah.
Anis Larbi (03:44):
International degree. It was long, actually.
And and this is true. It's noteasy because you are really into
the lab work for nine monthswith no pause. Like, there was
no school, you know, nouniversity exams or so it was
really work work work. And itwent very well, actually. I
(04:05):
really enjoyed it, and I had alot of freedom. And this is an
important world here that drivesactually my career, is the
freedom I had. Well, it was amix of freedom and so when I
reached there, the PI said, oh,thank you for coming to my lab
for your internship. This wasthe first day I met him. I said,
(04:27):
I'm sorry, but next week, I'mgoing for a sabbatical. So I
didn't see him. I didn't see himfor, like, couple of months. So
I was a bit, you know, it was abit worrying, but actually, it
went pretty well. The peoplethere locally, they were very
nice. And so I did thisinternship. I learned a lot of
things. And for me, it wasfantastic to put into practice
(04:49):
what I have learned from fromthe university. And the boss
there was seeing that maybethere is something in me, so he
wanted to invest on on on me onme, and he asked me to to join
for a master degree, to stay inhis lab and do a master degree
to follow-up some of theresearch research because there
(05:12):
was some nice result from myinternship. And then I decided
to stay, and then I did mymaster degree. This is the
University of Sherbrooke.
Peter O'Toole (05:25):
Mhmm.
Anis Larbi (05:25):
Very good university, actually. Small
city, but very nice university.Very good. And then, of course,
I follow-up with my with my PhDthere. PhD in immunology from
the faculty working in thefaculty of medicine, University
of Sherbrooke. And very for me,it was enlightening. You know? I
(05:48):
this guy so so Thomas, now he'sa friend, professor Thomas
Phillip, he he he enlightened meinto the world of research. What
is research? We know the really,like, noble part of it, you
know, in terms of exchange, interms of curiosity, in terms of
openness, in terms of passion.Passion is very important. And
(06:15):
this is why I stayed for themaster and then for the PhD.
It's a lot of because of him,cause I was in Canada far away
from the family in a very coldplace. It was not the best for
me, actually, to be honest. Butwhen I was in the lab, I can
forget everything. I couldforget everything and really,
really enjoy that.
Peter O'Toole (06:35):
So after that, you then went to do a postdoc,
but that wasn't in Canada, wasit? You flipped to Germany?
Anis Larbi (06:42):
Yes. So after my my my PhD, I I went to Germany for
a for a postdoc, and this wasthe lab of somebody, also Graham
Graham Pavelek, that actually Imet during my Canadian time.
Thanks to to Thomas that reallyopened me to his network of
(07:07):
scientists. And just to tell youhis anecdotes, so the I was in
master degree, the first year ofmy master. Thomas told me, do
you speak English very well?And, you know, I came from
France. And not not to blame theFrench educational system, but
we're not the best in terms ofspeaking English. But I could I
(07:30):
could manage, but it was not thebest. But I asked him why you
asked me this question. He said,no. It's just I have this
meeting in Sicily and I've beeninvited and they asked me to
bring somebody that couldpresent a short, you know, short
talk. Come on. I was so excited.I said, of course, I speak
English so well. You know,sometimes you have to take the
(07:51):
the the risk and the the theopportunity and and and and and
the challenge. And this is how Iwent to this meeting. It was in
Palermo, meeting with all thesepeople that knew my boss, so he
introduced me to all of thepeople. And then I started to
know the community of scientistsin which I was working. It was
the field of biology of aging,so aging of the immune system in
(08:14):
particular. And this is where Imet this Graham Pavelek. He was
organizing this event actuallyin Sicily. And then I met this
guy, and several years later, II ended up in his lab as a a
postdoc.
Peter O'Toole (08:27):
I think what's really good to hear there is the
networking side, that actuallyyou've taken the networking
opportunities. The meeting inSicily, you didn't say no to out
of nerves or your English wasn'tas good as you thought it should
be. You just said yes, and you'dmake it work. And all of that is
from the networking from yoursupervisor who they know. You
(08:50):
were obviously sociable,friendly, talkative with the
with the visitors that he washaving so that they would get to
know you a bit. So whether youwere conscious of that or not or
whether that's just yourpersonality, Would you say you
were deliberately making goodefforts around these people or
just naturally gregarious?
Anis Larbi (09:10):
I think it's also because when I left France to
have this opportunity in Canada,I felt a bit of frustration in
the and it has changed since,luckily, but the research
ecosystem at that time was notvery open, you know, in terms of
when you are young and you're anundergrad or master. You know,
(09:31):
the feeling I had at least waslike you don't have the freedom
to do this type of to have theseopportunities to so when I went
to to Canada and I had thisopportunity, I really took any
possible milligram of chains tocommunicate, exchange, do
research, and, you know, it wasfor me a kind of a obligation
(09:53):
because I left my comfort zone.I was in Europe, in France. I
left this comfort zone. It wasnot just to take a plane and and
and land in another comfortzone. So you have to take this
challenge, and it's it's noteasy because there is at least
in the educational program I wasin France, there was no such way
(10:16):
to teach you how to communicate,how to develop your network.
It's something you learn byyourself. Right? Maybe now this
has changed, and I think it'sgreat. But at that time, you
know, it's not there's no how todo it, you have to do it by
yourself. So you also have tohave this I'm kind of shy by
(10:38):
nature, and I had to changethat. Now I'm not anymore.
Peter O'Toole (10:42):
That's it. Actually, before we went live
today, it was a lunchtimewebinar or meeting that I did
with MI talent, and thetechnician's commitment. And,
actually, it was all aboutnetworking, being visible, how
how to raise a profile. And itwas interesting, but networking,
and as you say, not saying no,saying yes to things was really
(11:04):
important. For the people onthere, they they we've all been
out of our comfort zone sayingyes to something. I I think I
used to say yes out ofignorance, not realizing what I
was saying yes to, and then justfinding myself there, bunny in
headlights, but going with it.Others, I think they thought,
well, I need to take thisopportunity, otherwise, it might
(11:25):
not come around again. So Idon't really want to do it, but
I'll say yes. But then actuallyenjoyed it and found, you know,
that impostor syndrome quicklygoes away, I think. Although I
think you always find yourselfin situations where, again, you
feel a bit like an impostorsyndrome position.
So how's your German?
Anis Larbi (11:46):
Yeah. Not so good. I actually I never learned German
at school, so I had absolutelyno no knowledge at all about the
German language. And it'sanother, you know, it's another
risk and another challenge here.
Peter O'Toole (12:06):
And how how long were you out there for?
Anis Larbi (12:08):
I was there for a bit more than four years. Of
course, I had the chance thatthe lab director was British
actually, living in Germany. Hemarried a German local German
woman. So the people in the lab,they they they could speak
English, and they speak English.So I feel at least I had some
(12:33):
some safety zone there.
Peter O'Toole (12:35):
And so oh, yeah. This is fantastic. So you've
gone from France to Canada toGermany, but then I guess your
big break was then moving overto the A Star in Singapore.
Anis Larbi (12:46):
Yes. Yes. It
Peter O'Toole (12:48):
This is well traveled at the moment. Okay?
Canada, Germany, Singapore. Gotso but what how why did you go
to Singapore? It's an awesomeplace. A star is Oh, yeah.
Place.
Anis Larbi (13:03):
Yes. Yes. It's you know, it's it's it's life
sometimes. It's it'sopportunities you have to to
identify. It's also changes. Youhave change. Sometimes that is a
part of the the the deal. I wasone year, I think, before being
so I was contacted by by to tellyou. But one year before that, I
(13:25):
was thinking, you know, maybe Ineed another challenge. I don't
know. We're talking with thefamily. Maybe Asia will be nice.
So I love Indonesia. It was verynice. But Singapore was not in
the picture at all. I had no noclue that Singapore was doing
kind of research at that time.And I I I received an email one
day, and I think it's probablybecause some of the things I was
(13:48):
doing there in Germany. I wasdoing a lot of because as an
immunologist, you do a lot offlow cytometry. So I was doing
some flow. I'm doing I think in02/2008, I was doing something
like fourteen, fifteen, 17 colorflow cytometry already. Okay? So
(14:09):
what instrument was that on?
Peter O'Toole (14:11):
Sorry? What instrument was that on?
Anis Larbi (14:13):
This was highly modified LSR Okay? And we were
doing that, and the probablythey have heard about what we
were doing because then they'rebeing contacted. I received the
email one day. Oh, we haveidentified you. We'd like you to
join A Star. There was a newimmunology institute to be to be
(14:37):
built. This was 02/2009. And sothen, again, I had to Google it.
Singapore, what are they doing?Is it risky? Is it really
serious? Because, you know, whenyou're alone or when you have a
family, it's a bit different.You know? You got different
considerations. So then wedecided we invited me to go for
(15:04):
a visit. So I was there. And,yeah, it's different culture,
different people, different typeof work. It was to build so to
tell you, they asked me whetherto join because they are
building this big immunologyinstitute, and they wanted to
have several facilities, corecore platforms. One was them,
(15:30):
was flow cytometry, and theywanted me to build that. And
once I build this, they wantedme then to they allow me to do
my own research because this issomething I was doing already.
So that was the big change, bigmove for for us because, you
know, it's interesting. I thinkthe year before I moved, I I
(15:52):
think I bought a house in in inLeon. This is where I'm living
actually now. This is the houseI bought.
Peter O'Toole (15:58):
Oh, okay.
Anis Larbi (15:58):
Because I thought after the postdoc, maybe we'll
move back to France. You know?But no. So we we moved to 11,000
kilometer from there. Yeah.Yeah.
Peter O'Toole (16:11):
Alright. So this is interesting as well. So
you've gone from, obviously,your master's to a PhD to a
postdoc. You're doing your ownresearch. You went to A Star.
You you become your own leadacademic itself as a PI, but you
also headed a core facility. Soyou had you've got a
multihatting, at that point. I'msure many who listen to
(16:32):
Flowstars will understand theimportance of Flow core
facilities. Which part of thejob did you most enjoy? The
leading a core facility andengaging with the technology and
developing applications forusers or your own research? What
what did you prefer?
Anis Larbi (16:50):
This is a tough one, but it's an interesting one.
Yes. I I used to say I had twojobs because I was heading I I I
built and helped build with thesupport of many people and the
the the the freedom from themanagement to to develop what I
(17:13):
think was to be to be to bedeveloped. Here, to answer your
question, I was able to developmy vision of what should be a
core facility, which is veryimportant because you develop,
you think about, you have avision, and you implement it,
which is different from doingsomething that somebody else,
(17:33):
you know, has designed. So thiswas very exciting.
To be honest, it's somethingwhich is because you see the
fruits, you see the peoplecoming, you see the people
using, you see people beingtrained, you see the
publications. I think I likealso the research side. We were
very successful in terms of myresearch, it's, you know, a lot
(17:58):
of publications, goodpublications, a lot of
collaborations, exciting work,clinical trials, really great
also. But what I liked a lot iswhen my people from the Flow
platform, so my operators thathelp the running of the
platform, when they are wereengaged in projects with users
(18:20):
or PIs, and they will includethem in the scientific papers
because of the contributions,because what they bring. You
know, it's where this I wasespecially proud, to be honest,
because then it's them. Youknow? I used to tell them, put
them in the paper. I don't needto be because I'm I'm not the
one doing the work. I'm anenabler and they are doing it. I
(18:41):
was very proud of this, to behonest, because it's not in
every facility that you havethis type of recognition. Right?
And this is something I was veryproud to be honest, and it gave
me motivation. And, of course,the publication from the
academic part, the research, butagain, not for me, for the
(19:02):
student and the postdoc becauseit was a relief for them. But,
yeah, I say a little bit moremaybe the in terms of the
platform than the the academia.
Peter O'Toole (19:14):
It just got me thinking within our own core
facility, within the microscopyand the cytometry side of the
the bigger core facility atYork. I think every one of that
team have been a coauthor onsomeone's publication in the
last twelve months. That's allof I I I say some get more than
others because they're, youknow, more advanced in inputting
(19:35):
more into the research. All ofthem, I think, have got at least
one to their name. That soundscrazy. How, you know I think I
think actually core facilitiesare getting better at that.
People are better at recognizingthe expertise where it's
actually, you know, five, tenyears ago, that wasn't so much
the case.
Anis Larbi (19:54):
Yeah. That's
Peter O'Toole (19:54):
true. Doing well-to-do that.
Anis Larbi (19:56):
Yeah. Absolutely. And and I think it's you know,
when you have a core facility,depending how it works, but
people will tend to think, yeah,I pay for the facility, then
this is the service. You know?And this is something I try to
build differently. It's more therelationship and the
collaboration.
Peter O'Toole (20:12):
Yeah. But but an academic so as a PI, you pay for
your postdoc, but your postdoc,you still coauthored.
Anis Larbi (20:19):
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Peter O'Toole (20:19):
Yeah. Expertise Absolutely. As bigger bulk of
it. At that moment in time,you're using their expertise. I
think the problem is a lot ofcore staff tend not to explain
what they've just done isactually quite special, and they
just make it look easy. Eventhough they probably just
developed a new pipeline oroptimized a new application that
(20:41):
wasn't possible before and usethat skill so it is
developmental. It is impactful.But for the for the non user,
just think, oh, but that's whatyou do. That was easy for you.
And actually, no, it's not. It'sthat level of skill that we have
to convey that. We have tocommunicate that.
Anis Larbi (20:58):
That's true.
Peter O'Toole (20:58):
So go on very quickly. Core or academic? Go
on. Which one? You gotta pickone.
Anis Larbi (21:04):
Core. Oh,
Peter O'Toole (21:06):
okay. Well, it's a good choice. I I would I would
agree wholeheartedly. So youbeat you were at A Star
Singapore, and then you'veobviously switched to Betancourt
at that point. And I I've hadstar I've had, postdocs come to
my office and say, Pete, I'mlooking to switch jobs out of
(21:29):
academia, and I'm looking atworking for a company. And, but
people are saying to me, oh,really? You're going to the dark
side. Now, I've always took thatas humorous just some people
say, yeah, I've never seen it asa dark side. But actually, I
think people were actuallygenuinely saying to them, why
(21:50):
would you want to do that? So a,did you meet that, I would say,
academic snobbery at that pointthat it's that it's not
equivalent or is good or ismeaningful? Where would we be
without the product and withoutthe companies? We'd be nowhere.
So, of course, it's vital. Butdid you meet any of your peers
(22:11):
that said, oh, why would youwant to do that?
Anis Larbi (22:15):
Yes. Yes. It's I got this. I was recently in in in in
Qatar to present on a in thesymposium, scientific talk
about, you know, bacteriologyand circular economy and things
like that. And in the end,somebody asked me because
(22:35):
there's always the bio where youcome from, etcetera. We saw some
probably some publication andthings like that. And one of the
the question from the chair ofthe session was nothing to do
with my talk. He asked me whydid you left why you left
academia and why you joined, youknow, a company. You know? I was
a I was a bit surprised to behonest, but I I got this very
(22:57):
often. So just to answer, I gotthis very often.
Peter O'Toole (23:02):
Did it you off? Did it offend you?
Anis Larbi (23:05):
Sorry?
Peter O'Toole (23:05):
Did it put you off going, and did it offend you
that people were thinking likethat?
Anis Larbi (23:10):
No. No. I don't. For me, it's it's on the contrary, I
like when people ask it becausesometimes we have misconception
about doing this transition andabout what is working in the
company is, which is different,obviously. There's not much
education about, you know, howyou could do this transition and
(23:33):
and how it is working in acompany, although it's different
from company company to company.
When people ask me, I askmyself, okay. I was it do I have
any regrets, or was it I'm stillokay with that decision? And
that that's the only thing. But,otherwise, no, I take it very
nicely, and I think I know thatmany people would like to, and
(23:56):
this is something maybe youknow?
Peter O'Toole (23:57):
Mhmm.
Anis Larbi (23:58):
Many people would like to, but for them, it's a
bit you know, it's as you said,it's the dark side. You know?
But this guy seems to still behappy, so maybe he's not so bad.
So that's why they ask.
Peter O'Toole (24:09):
Do do you ever get people within industry
because this I I know a fewpeople who've moved back into
academia. It's the same thing. II'd love to know, actually.
Maybe I should go and ask one.It's the same question asked of
them. Why are you going back tothe dark side with academia? I I
wonder if it flips the other wayas well.
Anis Larbi (24:31):
Yeah. But I think you have probably have more
people going from academia to toto industry in in from what I
know Yeah. And and less on theother the other side the other
way. But, yeah, it's it's a verydifferent way of but if you are
able to work in both and to dothis transition, it means also,
(24:51):
in my opinion, that you have thethe skills to to do both
probably. And then you may findI don't I don't know. Maybe in
in couple of years, I'm goingback to to academia. Who knows?
You know?
Peter O'Toole (25:07):
Why so why did you flip from academia into
industry?
Anis Larbi (25:13):
I think there are two reasons. It's as as as
scientists, you know, we we wecontribute to the society by
advancing the knowledge, helpingas much as we can, and
eventually to translate some ofthis research into practical
(25:34):
applications and utility to toin this context is health. And
so when you think about it, youhave a bit of in terms of your
own, how can I say that, ethic,and this applies also on the
industry side, is what am Idoing? How am I contributing? Am
(25:58):
I are my skills and what whatI'm doing? Is it the best
contribution to the society? CanI do better? You know? And as
scientists, we always have tohave this, you know, this
criticism into what we are whatwe are doing. Not just the
result of the Western blot, buthigher level. What am I doing?
How it's relevant? And it's alsothanks to, you know, when I was
(26:21):
in A Star, when you write grant,you write you are you are
writing grant at that time, theydon't just ask you how many
paper you're gonna publish. Theywere asking you how it impacts
the society, how it impactshealth recommendation, how many
spin off company you are able toto to to to to get out of it. So
it's, you know, it's were tryingto push us to the to the, you
(26:44):
know, the impact of what you'redoing. Okay? I'm not saying it's
always good because, you know,we have enough in our plate as
scientists to publish publishingalone is a is a is a piece is a
is not a piece of cake. So butstill it opened my mind into
that. And then I thought, okay.Is my contribution the best in
(27:07):
what I'm doing? We published alot of work, nice publications,
I think. We have had enoughmoney to do my research, invited
in conferences, so I wassuccessful with it in a way, but
still I felt that something wasmissing. This comes from when I
was discussing with people, thecompanies coming to my lab and
(27:29):
say, hey Alice, we have this newtechnology, we have this new
application, and sometimes Ifelt that there's a gap also in
the industry in the way theydevelop or they think about
product and how this can beuseful to scientists. And and I
wanted to consider how can I bein the middle of that and help
(27:51):
scientists get better solutionsand scientists go faster to to
their research researchendeavor? And this is what I was
thinking, know, and talking withpeople from the industry, so
when I go to conferencesvisiting the booth, but talking
to the people there, know whatyou're doing and how is it in
the company, how you generateyour product, I felt that
(28:14):
probably there's also a gap inthe industry in getting people
that were doing this, that werein academia for so many times,
and that how maybe they can helpthem be closer to the research
community.
Peter O'Toole (28:31):
So I I'm gonna take it back. So you're now in
in the corporate world. But if Itake you back to when you were
really young, can you rememberwhat the first job was that you
wanted to do?
Anis Larbi (28:45):
Yes. I wanted to work in a lab. I wanted the the
white coat, the lab coat.
Peter O'Toole (28:51):
Really?
Anis Larbi (28:52):
Yeah.
Peter O'Toole (28:52):
Yeah. But from the age of what? 10? Nine, 10?
Anis Larbi (28:56):
Yes. Yes. Something like that. Absolutely. Yeah.
Peter O'Toole (28:58):
You didn't want to be a footballer, an
astronaut?
Anis Larbi (29:02):
No. No. No. No. I was really fascinated by the
world of biology.
Peter O'Toole (29:10):
And now you've swapped out your lab coat.
Anis Larbi (29:13):
Yes. I still put the lab coats from time to time when
I visit hospitals and stuff likethat, but no pipetting anymore.
Peter O'Toole (29:22):
So so what is your role at Beckman Coulter?
Anis Larbi (29:26):
So and and it's it's important question here is when
you move to to company, it's notit's it's not easy because you
you are from and I will answeryour question, but but you move
from writing grants, hiringpeople, training people, getting
(29:47):
papers, and getting visibilityfrom the community, trying in
the meantime to get developmentmoving up in your career. Okay?
And you are moving from a verydifferent system, and you don't
know how it works in thecompany. Okay? So what is
important is to also land in aposition to answer your question
(30:11):
where you also feel comfortable.Moving from this academia role
to something that is not alignedwith what you can do and you
feel comfortable, this is morethan risky. Okay? And so that's
why in moving to BeckmanCoulter, actually, my my role is
is called medical and scientificaffairs. So I'm a senior manager
(30:34):
in the in the company, and myrole is I mean, we have
different functions as medicaland scientific affairs, but to
make it in one sentence, theytap on our expertise and
experience as scientists withyears of experience in the lab,
in the research, to help insidethe company to of level the
(30:55):
knowledge, the capacity, helpthe company maybe developing
better products that are morealigned with what scientists do,
do update in the research, inwhat is trending in the
community, in scientificcommunity, where the field is
going, but also talking to stilltalking to scientists a lot,
(31:16):
actually going to conferencesand to talk to those scientists
to to to understand what'swhat's evolving in the field.
Peter O'Toole (31:24):
Just thinking about this. I I get all that
experience that you have. Theythey that's what they're buying
in for. They bring you overbecause you got all the
expertise, the experience, youknow what the customer wants
because you you were thecustomer. But, obviously, over
time, that's gonna wane becausethings change behind the scenes.
Have you thought about goinginto a lab and shadowing for a
couple of weeks or doing acouple of labs? One week in one
(31:46):
lab, one week in another lab,just to get that vibe back and
just to have your ear right onthe ground of just the the the
the ordinary user, rather peopleat conferences who are gonna be
a flea in your ear becausethey're gonna have agendas to
push. But, actually, just beingaround and just getting a feel
for how things are moving today,where the different technologies
are emerging, how they'reoverlapping, have you thought
(32:08):
about doing that?
Anis Larbi (32:10):
Actually, it's an interesting, it's an interesting
idea. And, no, to answer yourquestion, I do read a lot,
though. I do read a lot, and Iam still a lot in contact with
the research community. I have akind of a big network, so I when
I need information. But it'strue. It's not the same when you
(32:31):
are in the lab. I fully I fullyagree, and it's not something
you can you know, that's alsosome of the things as a as a
when you are a PI or a postdoc,you can travel, go to a
different lab, different city orcountry, go for, like, one week,
two weeks, three weeks, onemonth to learn a technique or
(32:52):
get some data. It's notsomething we do we do so easily.
Peter O'Toole (32:58):
Would say I guess it's not you're you're not at
that moment in this is moretraining, isn't it? It's almost
like top up training.
Anis Larbi (33:05):
Yeah.
Peter O'Toole (33:05):
And rather than that because you're not gonna
get sales out of it. That's notyour purpose of being there.
You're not gonna find your nextmarket lead. But
Anis Larbi (33:12):
Yeah.
Peter O'Toole (33:12):
I found an excuse to get you to York.
Anis Larbi (33:15):
Thank you for the invitation, and I accept your
invitation.
Peter O'Toole (33:18):
There you go. You'll be more than welcome. As
you well know, you'll be morethan welcome. I asked you what
you wanted to be when youattend. If you could do any job
in the world for a day or aweek, just to sample what what
it'd be like to be in that typeof job, what job would you go
for?
Anis Larbi (33:43):
A job where you really make impact. And it's
it's not really a job, but it's,you know, when you see sometimes
what's happening in a in in inin some parts of the world at
the at the moment and probablysince decades is where you have
a impacting direct impact inlives. You know? And and this is
(34:05):
aligned with why also I movedfrom from academia is how you
have a better impact. So I thinkit can be any type of job as
long as you see the impact inthe life of the the individual.
Yeah. It can be a surgeon. Itcan be a policeman. It can be a
fireman probably working in inin NGOs, supporting these these
(34:29):
people, things like that. Yeah.
Peter O'Toole (34:31):
Okay. What was what was your first cytometer?
Anis Larbi (34:37):
This was I remember it was in 02/2001, if I'm not
mistaken. And the the the thethe so Thomas, at that time, I
was starting my master, I think.I say, I have a gift for you. I
said, what is this? And really,it was like, it's coming today,
and it was a caliber at thattime.
Peter O'Toole (34:58):
That was the same. My first was a caliber.
Anis Larbi (35:00):
And but, you know, the difference is, like, you
know, you say, oh, this is thegift for you. This is the guide
how to use it.
Peter O'Toole (35:09):
Bye bye. But you also I remember you got a DVD to
show you how to operate it aswell. Do you remember the DVD or
the CD or whatever 02/2001? Andyou could watch that. And it was
it was actually one of the besttutorials I think I've seen.
Anis Larbi (35:25):
Yeah. No. No. It was it was a very good experience,
actually, and and it was the itwas my first, really, encounter
with one to one encounter withphocytometerium.
Peter O'Toole (35:38):
Okay. So some some quick fire questions. PC or
Mac?
Anis Larbi (35:47):
Mac.
Peter O'Toole (35:47):
God, these are quick fire questions. How long
was that taking you, Mac?McDonald's or Burger
Anis Larbi (35:51):
King? Burger King.
Peter O'Toole (35:55):
Burger King. Okay. Are you an early bird or a
night owl?
Anis Larbi (35:59):
Night.
Peter O'Toole (36:00):
Night. Chocolate or cheese?
Anis Larbi (36:03):
Chocolate.
Peter O'Toole (36:04):
Beer or wine?
Anis Larbi (36:06):
None.
Peter O'Toole (36:07):
No? Tea or coffee?
Anis Larbi (36:12):
Coffee.
Peter O'Toole (36:13):
Oh, okay. What's your favorite food?
Anis Larbi (36:17):
My favorite food is so, originally, I'm from
Tunisia. So it's a Tunisiandish, and it's called couscous.
Probably you know that.
Peter O'Toole (36:26):
Yeah.
Anis Larbi (36:27):
This is my my favorite dish, especially my
mother's. Of course, like manypeople, is couscous. Yeah.
Peter O'Toole (36:34):
Just couscous. That's just like having rice.
It's just a bit come on. Whatwhat how are flavoring your
couscous?
Anis Larbi (36:41):
What do you mean?
Peter O'Toole (36:42):
Oh, couscous over here is just is just the is just
the the grain.
Anis Larbi (36:46):
Yes. Yeah. Because it's not it's not the the the
original version. So theoriginal version of couscous, we
have some gravy, some sauce. InTunisia, it can be spicy because
we eat spicy food in in Tunisiacompared to other countries in
the region. And you haveveggies. It can be carrots,
zucchini, some put potatoes. Youput peas, the peas in there, and
(37:13):
some some meat, some decentmeat, a lot lamb, tend to be
lamb. Mhmm. I should invite youfor a couscous in return of your
invitation to York. Sounds good.In fact, last night's meal was
was a North African couscousmeal that that my wife does
actually.
Good.
Peter O'Toole (37:32):
It's actually You're okay. Yeah. I'm just
checking the doors closed. Itwas actually really good. But,
yeah, I'm the cook of the house.That dish is really good. That's
her dish. I'm quite that thatone's hers. When you cook, do
you have a signature dish? Adish that you like to cook most?
Anis Larbi (37:51):
Yes. Again, it's it's a Tunisian. This is called
it's Tunisian pasta. It's a typeof Tunisian pasta. To summarize,
it's kind of a Arabiata, butspicy, very spicy food. Very
spicy pasta. Yeah.
Peter O'Toole (38:05):
That's cool. That's it. My house, that's my
meal. As in that's I I do that.That that's my sauce. Let me do
it. Do you prefer to wash up orcook?
Anis Larbi (38:14):
Sorry?
Peter O'Toole (38:15):
You wash or cook?
Anis Larbi (38:17):
I cook.
Peter O'Toole (38:19):
You cook. Now is that because your wife's cooking
isn't very good?
Anis Larbi (38:23):
No. No. She cooks she's she's she's a very good
cook. She's better than me. But,you know, there are some things
I'm very bad I have to admit,I'm very lazy. Things that I can
do it, but I prefer to cook. Iprefer creating the challenge of
building, creating something.Then when it comes to the other
(38:45):
part, I'm more lazy. Have toadmit.
Peter O'Toole (38:48):
Okay. But what is your least favorite food? So if
if you went if you if you weretaken out, it was a work dinner
and you're given food, it's aset menu, you have no choice.
What would be the worst thingthey could put in front of you?
Anis Larbi (39:04):
Like, raw meat?
Peter O'Toole (39:06):
Raw meat.
Anis Larbi (39:07):
Yeah. Sometimes they it's I don't know if in every
country they have it, but in in,like, in France, they have,
like, the tartar or some stuff.
Peter O'Toole (39:16):
Yeah. Think that's steak tartar.
Anis Larbi (39:17):
Yeah. It's something I I, yeah, I can't.
Peter O'Toole (39:22):
That that's quite a good shout. TV or book?
Anis Larbi (39:29):
TV, of course not. Books, no. I'm not a big reader.
I read a lot of papers, but I'mI'm not a big reader, I have to
admit.
Peter O'Toole (39:40):
Okay. France or Tunisia?
Anis Larbi (39:45):
Depends for what? It's a very easy answer.
Peter O'Toole (39:50):
Okay. Tunisia or Germany?
Anis Larbi (39:53):
Tunisia.
Peter O'Toole (39:55):
Germany or Singapore?
Anis Larbi (39:58):
Singapore.
Peter O'Toole (39:58):
Singapore or Tunisia?
Anis Larbi (40:03):
Tunisia.
Peter O'Toole (40:07):
Canada or Tunisia?
Anis Larbi (40:12):
Tunisia. It's tough.
Peter O'Toole (40:15):
France or Tunisia?
Anis Larbi (40:17):
France or Tunisia? I mean, I'm French, and I'm
Tunisia, and I'm I'm really I'mreally both both are in my
heart, and I think it's it'sit's interesting you ask.
Sometimes you you it's difficultto answer. It's not for it's not
for diplomatic or politicalreasons. It's really because
(40:38):
it's this this diversity ofculture is something you don't
want to split because it's yourit's your nature. And I feel
that for me, it's not likebetraying if I say France or
Tunisia. No. It's it's because Idon't feel that I have to
separate it because it's it'swhat really and what what you
(40:59):
are. Of course, it can be 55, 40five, but, you know, percentage
is not something relevant.
Peter O'Toole (41:05):
It's based I was just trying to get you into
trouble.
Anis Larbi (41:07):
Yeah. No. No. You are very good at it.
Peter O'Toole (41:13):
Star Trek or Star Wars?
Anis Larbi (41:16):
Star Wars.
Peter O'Toole (41:17):
Do you have a favorite film?
Anis Larbi (41:21):
A favorite film? Yes. It's it's it's a it's a
movie when I was young. I don'tknow if the the the name is the
same. It's called the Goonies.
Peter O'Toole (41:31):
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The Goonies.
Anis Larbi (41:33):
I I I show I also show it to my kids just be you
know, the the spirit of thismovie, I I like it very much.
It's very kind of innocent. It'sjust the movie for fun, and it's
funny. And, of course, itreminds you of your childhood.
Peter O'Toole (41:54):
Favorite color?
Anis Larbi (41:56):
Blue.
Peter O'Toole (41:59):
So not PE or APC or PE Texas red. No. You say
blue.
Anis Larbi (42:06):
Blue.
Peter O'Toole (42:06):
Dappy. You could have said dappy at least.
Anis Larbi (42:10):
It's it's true. Yeah. We we the the spectrum of
colors is very fascinating nowthat you mentioned this. And for
for surprisingly, I I but I'veliked blue. Before I know for
cytometry, blue was always my mymy my my favorite colors as my
(42:31):
car is blue, for example.
Peter O'Toole (42:33):
No. Look look look at both of us.
Anis Larbi (42:34):
I'm in blue.
Peter O'Toole (42:35):
So We're both in blue. Yeah?
Anis Larbi (42:37):
See.
Peter O'Toole (42:39):
Yeah. So I I concur. What would you say has
been the best time in yourcareer?
Anis Larbi (42:49):
The best time in my career I still think my time in
Singapore was was a peak in manythings in terms of outputs, in
terms of networking, in terms ofbecoming a leader. This is the
(43:13):
time when I was in Singapore.This is the time where I was
also a Isaac scholar from theYep. The ISAC, the international
city for advancement ofcytometry. It brings it brought
me a lot of visibility andrecognition in in my
institution. So I thinkSingapore was in terms of
(43:35):
publication, it was crazy. Interms of and very importantly, a
team. This is the period where Ihad my own lab, And we were I
had quite big lab, we have 25people. And for me, was very
it's always very excitingbuilding this lab, building this
(43:58):
this research program on thebiology of aging was really
because you see people see youas a leader in what you're doing
in the region where you are.It's a nice feeling.
Peter O'Toole (44:14):
You know, in academia, there's a lot of
freedom. You know, you you yes.You've got your research, but
you could drive it in thedirection you wanted. You have
the core facility that you coulddevelop as you wanted. Do you
miss that freedom that you hadin academia now that you're in
industry?
Anis Larbi (44:33):
Certainly, there is an aspect of the freedom that
you don't have in the industry.This is clear. And and I think
it's it's I like to say to givepositive comments about
transitioning from academia toto industry, but, also, I I like
to make it very clear. You know?You can't decide that you the
(44:58):
company is going this directionbecause you you are not the boss
yet. When you are the boss,maybe.
Peter O'Toole (45:03):
I like the way you said yes.
Anis Larbi (45:05):
As a as a as a PI, you know, a PI, you're like a
startup. You do everything byyourself. You find you find
convince people to give youmoney, then you do it, then you
show the the outputs, and so onand so on. Get the team, train
the team. And then if if you'resuccessful, you are the CEO of
the startup and you get therecognition. Okay? It is very
(45:28):
different. You have to workwithin the organization. Okay?
And, yes, you miss the freedomof doing if you want for one
month, you focus on oneexperiment because you want to
achieve this goal, you you cando it. You take the risk. Okay?
But you can do it. In in in thecompany, you you have
(45:51):
objectives, KPIs, know all theseterms. But to be also
transparent, I have a a freedomin the company where I am now,
Beckman Culture Life Science, isalso because they they
understand my profile. Okay? Andthis is very important when I
(46:14):
say you you you can transit youcan move from academia to
industry, but you have to landin the right position and with
the right people that understandwhat what you are and what you
bring to the company.
Peter O'Toole (46:25):
But that also means they trust you.
Anis Larbi (46:27):
Yes.
Peter O'Toole (46:28):
And they trust your because who you are,
though, you are creating thedirection the company's going in
within your area. You aredictate you're you're the you're
still a group leader in essencein what you're doing, but your
team of, obviously, your seniormanagement have obviously got
faith in you to let you drivethat as you feel fit. They're
(46:48):
not they're not managing you inthat respect.
Anis Larbi (46:51):
Yeah. Clearly, yeah. And and I think this is
something which I I have to sayI'm very lucky, and and and and
and also choosing the company isimportant. And before joining
the Beckman Coulter I I I did myhomework and trying to
understand what is thephilosophy of the company, how
people work there, how peopleare treated, what are your
(47:14):
opportunities in the company togrow, that your voice is heard,
and things like that. And I'mvery lucky. I'm very thankful to
my to my to my to all of thepeople from the organization. I
have been working and I'mworking now to have this trust.
They trust me. They don't manageme in the sense of mana you
know, micromanagement style. Andthat's why they they bring you
(47:37):
to the company because you bringsomething different. If it's to
put you in a in a in a in a in aa in a situation where you don't
express yourself and your yourexpertise, there's no point to
bring you.
Peter O'Toole (47:51):
So who is your current line manager?
Anis Larbi (47:55):
So my my current manager is Eda, Eda Hall. She's
the director.
Peter O'Toole (48:00):
Yeah. Go on. Who's her manager?
Anis Larbi (48:02):
Manager is Mario Kush.
Peter O'Toole (48:05):
Okay. I'm I'm just working out because you
said not yet whose jobs you'relining up. So now they've
watched this. They know thatyou're after them.
Anis Larbi (48:15):
Yes. I'm coming, guys. Yeah. No. But, you know,
but it's it's you know, in inthe this is something also
different from academia andindustry. In in industry, you
you have more possibilities, inmy opinion, more possibilities
(48:36):
to move around, to move up. Inacademia, it's clear. Master
degree, PhD, postdoc, eventuallygeneral lecturer, eventually PI,
and that's Lucky. That's it.
Peter O'Toole (48:50):
Because, again, that's also a pyramid. You
there's only so many positionsthere Yeah. To be taken in a
similar way.
Anis Larbi (48:56):
Yeah.
Peter O'Toole (48:57):
We talked about the best times in Singapore.
What's been the most difficulttime in your career to date? I'm
not saying you're gonna havemore difficult times. Okay. So
what's been the most difficulttime in your career?
Anis Larbi (49:12):
Wow. Most difficult time in my career. Frankly, in
the in this if if in the scale,at some point in in Singapore,
you feel that you're notevolving or or you can feel that
(49:36):
during your career, you don'tget the recognition you should
have Mhmm. Right, for variousreasons. And maybe you're wrong,
maybe you're right. I don'tknow. But you have this feeling,
And this was for me difficult,sometimes the lack of
recognition because the systemis like that, you know, and you
(49:57):
say it's a pyramid and everyyear you promote one person, for
example, and you have 20 people,10 of them should be promoted
based on the and you can youknow? And you feel you feel this
is, you know, you are stuck inthe in the in the system. And I
think it's probably not just me.This happened to me when I was
in Singapore. So I'm not sayingit's because of Singapore. Not
(50:19):
at all. Yeah. Yeah. It's justjust Yeah.
Peter O'Toole (50:21):
Yeah. That and I I I think I'm sure that happens
everywhere. During thosedifficult times, what do you do
at home to relax? What are yourhobbies?
Anis Larbi (50:32):
So I play soccer, football. Mhmm. Okay? I've been
playing since since since I'mvery young. And I was playing
when I went to Canada. Even withwith crazy weather, we are
playing indoor. I was playingwhen I was in Germany also. I
(50:55):
was playing when I went toSingapore. I play football, and
for me, it's really whatrelieves the stress. Yeah.
Peter O'Toole (51:06):
And yet you never wanted to be a footballer. You
wanted to be a lab coat wearingscientist.
Anis Larbi (51:11):
Yes. Because football is friendship for me.
It's just with friends. I Iplayed, like, one year in a
club, but I didn't like thespirit of the competition and,
you know, like that. But thefootball is friendship.
I meet some people now. I'm backin France. I meet some people. I
played with them, like, thirty,forty years ago. Thirty, not
(51:33):
forty, thirty years ago.
And it's people I played withthem, and it's like I met them,
like, yesterday. Okay.
Peter O'Toole (51:42):
You obviously must travel a lot in the job.
Anis Larbi (51:46):
Yeah.
Peter O'Toole (51:48):
How how how do you find all the travel? How how
much are you traveling at themoment? Let's put this into some
context. How much how many daysa week are you away?
Anis Larbi (51:58):
So my my role as as in medical and scientific
affairs, I have a global role,so I I really cover all the
parts of the world. So I tend todo, like, long travels. If you
have I was like so basically,you have two periods in the
year. You have spring and fall,which is the conference spike.
(52:23):
This is where I travel a lot.And apart from these two
periods, I travel here and therefor different type of
conferences. But you know, I tryto merge my efforts, like I was
in Australia in April, think Iwent to Melbourne, So I used
this opportunity to do a stop inin Singapore and then go to
(52:46):
Korea. It seems very close, butit's very it's still six or
eight hour flights, but stilland it's tiring. It's tiring.
It's it's some energy it's someenergy to prepare these trips. I
don't I mean, many people are inthe same situation, but you need
to prepare what you're gonnapresent or what you're gonna the
(53:08):
meetings you're going, thepeople you're going to meet. And
the most difficult part for meis when you travel, you don't
work. You don't move the emaillist, and you know what I mean?
So when you're back home, youend up with this ton of load of
work you have to do.
Peter O'Toole (53:26):
You not do that in a hotel room?
Anis Larbi (53:30):
Yeah. But, you know, I like to sleep also.
Peter O'Toole (53:32):
I I I no. I have to keep on top because
otherwise, the mountain justgets too high.
Anis Larbi (53:39):
Yeah. That's true. That's true.
Peter O'Toole (53:41):
So constantly wherever I went from on a train,
if I'm in an airport, I'll beI'll be working through them
still.
Anis Larbi (53:48):
Wow. Yeah. I try I do this sometimes obviously,
but, you know, when you end upafter you work, you have the
work dinner. It's go back to thehotel. It's 11PM. Next morning,
you wake up. It has 06:30 orseven. So yeah. Yeah. I'm not
complaining. Yeah. I love what Ido.
Peter O'Toole (54:08):
Well, yeah, you could well, I can tell you enjoy
well, love what you do, and andit it it always has its benefits
once you're there. It's justgetting there. Get the logistics
are always there's alwaysstress, isn't there?
Anis Larbi (54:21):
True. Yeah. Yeah. That's in in everything you do,
small or big task, if it's for apositive or negative thing,
there's always some stress. It'sa matter of how you deal with
that.
Peter O'Toole (54:36):
So in your career, you have any regrets?
Anis Larbi (54:43):
In my career, I have any regrets. Sometimes, yeah,
sometimes you feel you could domore.
Peter O'Toole (54:52):
But could you really?
Anis Larbi (54:55):
Yeah. Yeah. You can always you can always no. It's
you know, they are there I mean,it's not like you could do more,
but, you know, we when when youyou have a PhD, the day you are
you're okay. You do your defenseand you have PhD now. Despite
you have your PhD, you have thisdegree, there are many things
you are not trained for. You'renot trained for how you manage
(55:17):
your budget, how you manage yourtime, how you optimize your
research. You're not so, ofcourse, this is the type of
regret I have, but not because Iwas lazy. It's because we were
not and I think some of theresearch programs, the the the
the the graduate program now,they they include this type of
of of kind of teaching, which Ithink is great.
Peter O'Toole (55:40):
And one last question because we're coming up
to the hour mark. If you couldchange any one thing in the
world of flow cytometry, whatwould you change?
Anis Larbi (55:53):
I will make it compulsory if I have total
freedom.
Peter O'Toole (55:59):
Mhmm.
Anis Larbi (56:00):
I will make I will make it compulsory for
government to provide free HIVtesting and lymphoma leukemia
testing in these poor resourcecountries. Procytometry.
Peter O'Toole (56:15):
And one that the late Howard Shapiro and co would
be very, very much behind aswell and all the work that quite
a lot of I'd I I you are aEmeritus Isaac scholar, and we
know Isaac, are helping as asbest they can, but it's it's
little bits on the grand scalethat really needs to be
(56:37):
addressed. So and it's thank youso much for meeting today. I I
found it fascinating to hear howthe your career has developed
and how you've moved into thecommercial world. And I just get
a feeling that we'll know you'veyou've moved in, you know, the
senior management that actuallyprobably hasn't changed that
much of how you operate. Youmight not have your research
(56:58):
group, but you have your focus,you have your group, you have
your team.
I just got a feeling thatactually you are the same person
doing the same job just withdifferent targets, with
different solutions to try andfind answers to.
Anis Larbi (57:12):
Yeah. We we we as we can contribute, and this is my
take home message would be like,you can contribute from
different manner to theresearch, to the R and D
ecosystem. And I wanted tochange that, and I wanted my
contribution to be maybe moreimpactful, at least from the
(57:33):
angle of how I see it. Andthat's why going to industry is
another way to contribute to it.If you are lucky enough to find
a good company, to find theright position where you can
they can exploit your talent andthen you're happy doing that, I
think that's a that's a a that'sa win win.
(57:54):
And, yeah, I haven't changedmuch in the way I deal with
people, in the way I operate,but then it's to the company to
identify this this and and seeand see in you what could be
useful for them.
Peter O'Toole (58:10):
I do have I've got one extra extra question
then. Please assure me. Tell methe money is better in industry.
Anis Larbi (58:18):
It would be so in general, yes. In general, the
money is better in industry.There are some there are some
this is something people takeinto account, and there are some
countries I I took always theexample of France. So in France,
(58:38):
and I hope it changed, but inFrance, for instance, when you
start as a lecturer, a generallecturer in the university, your
salary is not at all alignedwith the degree, but not at all.
Okay? So you can do any otherjob in the university except a
(58:58):
lecturer. You'll probably havethe same salary. Okay? So this
is something which people aretaking into account, and we have
seen. And just to tell you, inin Singapore, there was this is
something you have to to plan.So in Singapore, they have, for
example, they have decided toreduce the the number of PhD
(59:20):
students because they realizethat maybe there is less
interest now in that because ofthis type of consideration that
they see that maybe the impactis not there or maybe the salary
is not good enough, so why theyshould go for for this type of
care. So it's a it's a peoplehave to think about that. Why
the salary is not up to what thepeople are doing. Being a
(59:43):
scientist is not a job. When Iwas interviewing postdocs, sorry
my answer is a bit long, butwhen I was interviewing
postdocs, I said, look, ifyou're looking for a job, don't
come to my lab. It's not a job.It's not an eight to five. Here
you come for passion. I'm notsaying you should do crazy
hours. It's not the point. Butyou have to have the passion for
(01:00:04):
this work because writing thisrant, doing this work, staying
sometimes over time because ofthe mice or because of the
cells, it's not a typical job.You know? Traveling all these
distance, meeting thesescientists, fellow scientists
around the world is not atypical job. Right? So, yeah,
that's that's something you haveto take into account.
Peter O'Toole (01:00:25):
No. I I think you're bang on. It has to be
your hobby. It has to be yourpassion. It has to be your game.
It's thank you very much forjoining us on Flowstar today.
Everyone who's listened,watched, however you've,
streamed, this one, please go dogo back and look at the back
catalog of Flowstar as well. Somore coming up as well in the
near future. But, Anis, thankyou very much for being
(01:00:48):
inspirational and really helpingeveryone understand what it's
like to be in two differentworlds.
Anis Larbi (01:00:53):
Thanks for the invitation again, and it's
really it was a pleasure, andthanks for doing this. I'm I'm
really sure it's it's gonna helppeople understand if and how
they could do this thistransition, and they can always
contact me or some of the peopleyou are inviting to to to these
sessions to to to discuss on onthis topic. Thanks again.
Peter O'Toole (01:01:15):
No problem. I look forward to shadowing in the
lab.
Anis Larbi (01:01:18):
Yes. Bye.
Welcome to Flow Stars, candid conversations
between doctor Peter O'Toole andthe big hitters of flow
cytometry brought to you byBeckman Coulter at Bite Size
Bio.
Peter O'Toole (00:11):
Hello, and welcome to Flow Stars. And
today, I have Anis Labbe fromBeckman Coulter Life Sciences
who was an academic, and heshares how he picked up his
English speaking skills topresent at a networking event in
Sicily. His views on whetherpostdocing is a job or a passion
(00:31):
project, and finding his impactin industry. All this in today's
episode. Hi. I'm Peter O'Toolefrom the University of York, and
welcome to this episode ofFlowstar. Today, I'm joined by
Anis Lapi from actually BeckmanCoulter to themselves. Anis, how
(00:52):
are you today?
Anis Larbi (00:54):
Very good. It's been a nice day, nice week. Winter is
coming, enjoying it, and thanksfor the invitation.
Peter O'Toole (01:01):
It's a pleasure. And for the audience wondering,
actually, I approached Kumtor toask if they had someone we could
talk to who'd flipped from anacademic career to the dark
side. I'm joking when I say thedark side, but we will talk
about this in a bit. Because Ithink it's you know, when we
were in academia, you all knowthis, Annis, there's only
(01:23):
limited possibilities of whereyou can go. You know, it is like
all careers. There's a pyramid.Yeah. And you're gonna get stuck
at some point, and academia hassome advantages and
disadvantages. But it's quitebrave, I feel, to jump across
out of the world of act our cozyworld of academia into a from an
(01:44):
from an outside perspective,maybe a more ruthless world, a
commercial corporate business.So let let's establish where you
came from to start with, ifthat's okay.
Where what was your what wasyour first degree in?
Anis Larbi (01:59):
Actually, I did my undergrad in France in the city
of Lyon where actually I grewup, and I'm from the city of
Lyon with an undergrad inbiological sciences. Okay? And
this was some time back, twentyfive years ago. And there was
(02:22):
the opportunity actually to do,like, in to do some, like,
internship post post degree.They had also the possibility to
to do that abroad. So there wasthis professor in in the
university. His her name isMarie. I always remember people
(02:47):
that actually were quiteimportant in driving some of my
career. And she said, oh, maybeyou should go to Canada because
she has some family there. Andshe said the spirit for research
there is very nice, very open.And then I find myself a couple
of months after my degree inCanada for internship. And so
(03:11):
this was in a research lab inthe city of Sherbrooke in the
lab of professor Thomas Phillip.You know, he's a scientist in
working in the field ofimmunology, and my role was to
put in practice what I havelearned. You know? And I did
this for nine months. It was
Peter O'Toole (03:32):
Oh, a nine month internship.
Anis Larbi (03:33):
Yeah. It was a it was a it's true. It's a long
internship, but this is to kindof validate undergrad plus one.
You know? It's like anotherdegree.
Peter O'Toole (03:43):
Okay. Yeah.
Anis Larbi (03:44):
International degree. It was long, actually.
And and this is true. It's noteasy because you are really into
the lab work for nine monthswith no pause. Like, there was
no school, you know, nouniversity exams or so it was
really work work work. And itwent very well, actually. I
(04:05):
really enjoyed it, and I had alot of freedom. And this is an
important world here that drivesactually my career, is the
freedom I had. Well, it was amix of freedom and so when I
reached there, the PI said, oh,thank you for coming to my lab
for your internship. This wasthe first day I met him. I said,
(04:27):
I'm sorry, but next week, I'mgoing for a sabbatical. So I
didn't see him. I didn't see himfor, like, couple of months. So
I was a bit, you know, it was abit worrying, but actually, it
went pretty well. The peoplethere locally, they were very
nice. And so I did thisinternship. I learned a lot of
things. And for me, it wasfantastic to put into practice
(04:49):
what I have learned from fromthe university. And the boss
there was seeing that maybethere is something in me, so he
wanted to invest on on on me onme, and he asked me to to join
for a master degree, to stay inhis lab and do a master degree
to follow-up some of theresearch research because there
(05:12):
was some nice result from myinternship. And then I decided
to stay, and then I did mymaster degree. This is the
University of Sherbrooke.
Peter O'Toole (05:25):
Mhmm.
Anis Larbi (05:25):
Very good university, actually. Small
city, but very nice university.Very good. And then, of course,
I follow-up with my with my PhDthere. PhD in immunology from
the faculty working in thefaculty of medicine, University
of Sherbrooke. And very for me,it was enlightening. You know? I
(05:48):
this guy so so Thomas, now he'sa friend, professor Thomas
Phillip, he he he enlightened meinto the world of research. What
is research? We know the really,like, noble part of it, you
know, in terms of exchange, interms of curiosity, in terms of
openness, in terms of passion.Passion is very important. And
(06:15):
this is why I stayed for themaster and then for the PhD.
It's a lot of because of him,cause I was in Canada far away
from the family in a very coldplace. It was not the best for
me, actually, to be honest. Butwhen I was in the lab, I can
forget everything. I couldforget everything and really,
really enjoy that.
Peter O'Toole (06:35):
So after that, you then went to do a postdoc,
but that wasn't in Canada, wasit? You flipped to Germany?
Anis Larbi (06:42):
Yes. So after my my my PhD, I I went to Germany for
a for a postdoc, and this wasthe lab of somebody, also Graham
Graham Pavelek, that actually Imet during my Canadian time.
Thanks to to Thomas that reallyopened me to his network of
(07:07):
scientists. And just to tell youhis anecdotes, so the I was in
master degree, the first year ofmy master. Thomas told me, do
you speak English very well?And, you know, I came from
France. And not not to blame theFrench educational system, but
we're not the best in terms ofspeaking English. But I could I
(07:30):
could manage, but it was not thebest. But I asked him why you
asked me this question. He said,no. It's just I have this
meeting in Sicily and I've beeninvited and they asked me to
bring somebody that couldpresent a short, you know, short
talk. Come on. I was so excited.I said, of course, I speak
English so well. You know,sometimes you have to take the
(07:51):
the the risk and the the theopportunity and and and and and
the challenge. And this is how Iwent to this meeting. It was in
Palermo, meeting with all thesepeople that knew my boss, so he
introduced me to all of thepeople. And then I started to
know the community of scientistsin which I was working. It was
the field of biology of aging,so aging of the immune system in
(08:14):
particular. And this is where Imet this Graham Pavelek. He was
organizing this event actuallyin Sicily. And then I met this
guy, and several years later, II ended up in his lab as a a
postdoc.
Peter O'Toole (08:27):
I think what's really good to hear there is the
networking side, that actuallyyou've taken the networking
opportunities. The meeting inSicily, you didn't say no to out
of nerves or your English wasn'tas good as you thought it should
be. You just said yes, and you'dmake it work. And all of that is
from the networking from yoursupervisor who they know. You
(08:50):
were obviously sociable,friendly, talkative with the
with the visitors that he washaving so that they would get to
know you a bit. So whether youwere conscious of that or not or
whether that's just yourpersonality, Would you say you
were deliberately making goodefforts around these people or
just naturally gregarious?
Anis Larbi (09:10):
I think it's also because when I left France to
have this opportunity in Canada,I felt a bit of frustration in
the and it has changed since,luckily, but the research
ecosystem at that time was notvery open, you know, in terms of
when you are young and you're anundergrad or master. You know,
(09:31):
the feeling I had at least waslike you don't have the freedom
to do this type of to have theseopportunities to so when I went
to to Canada and I had thisopportunity, I really took any
possible milligram of chains tocommunicate, exchange, do
research, and, you know, it wasfor me a kind of a obligation
(09:53):
because I left my comfort zone.I was in Europe, in France. I
left this comfort zone. It wasnot just to take a plane and and
and land in another comfortzone. So you have to take this
challenge, and it's it's noteasy because there is at least
in the educational program I wasin France, there was no such way
(10:16):
to teach you how to communicate,how to develop your network.
It's something you learn byyourself. Right? Maybe now this
has changed, and I think it'sgreat. But at that time, you
know, it's not there's no how todo it, you have to do it by
yourself. So you also have tohave this I'm kind of shy by
(10:38):
nature, and I had to changethat. Now I'm not anymore.
Peter O'Toole (10:42):
That's it. Actually, before we went live
today, it was a lunchtimewebinar or meeting that I did
with MI talent, and thetechnician's commitment. And,
actually, it was all aboutnetworking, being visible, how
how to raise a profile. And itwas interesting, but networking,
and as you say, not saying no,saying yes to things was really
(11:04):
important. For the people onthere, they they we've all been
out of our comfort zone sayingyes to something. I I think I
used to say yes out ofignorance, not realizing what I
was saying yes to, and then justfinding myself there, bunny in
headlights, but going with it.Others, I think they thought,
well, I need to take thisopportunity, otherwise, it might
(11:25):
not come around again. So Idon't really want to do it, but
I'll say yes. But then actuallyenjoyed it and found, you know,
that impostor syndrome quicklygoes away, I think. Although I
think you always find yourselfin situations where, again, you
feel a bit like an impostorsyndrome position.
So how's your German?
Anis Larbi (11:46):
Yeah. Not so good. I actually I never learned German
at school, so I had absolutelyno no knowledge at all about the
German language. And it'sanother, you know, it's another
risk and another challenge here.
Peter O'Toole (12:06):
And how how long were you out there for?
Anis Larbi (12:08):
I was there for a bit more than four years. Of
course, I had the chance thatthe lab director was British
actually, living in Germany. Hemarried a German local German
woman. So the people in the lab,they they they could speak
English, and they speak English.So I feel at least I had some
(12:33):
some safety zone there.
Peter O'Toole (12:35):
And so oh, yeah. This is fantastic. So you've
gone from France to Canada toGermany, but then I guess your
big break was then moving overto the A Star in Singapore.
Anis Larbi (12:46):
Yes. Yes. It
Peter O'Toole (12:48):
This is well traveled at the moment. Okay?
Canada, Germany, Singapore. Gotso but what how why did you go
to Singapore? It's an awesomeplace. A star is Oh, yeah.
Place.
Anis Larbi (13:03):
Yes. Yes. It's you know, it's it's it's life
sometimes. It's it'sopportunities you have to to
identify. It's also changes. Youhave change. Sometimes that is a
part of the the the deal. I wasone year, I think, before being
so I was contacted by by to tellyou. But one year before that, I
(13:25):
was thinking, you know, maybe Ineed another challenge. I don't
know. We're talking with thefamily. Maybe Asia will be nice.
So I love Indonesia. It was verynice. But Singapore was not in
the picture at all. I had no noclue that Singapore was doing
kind of research at that time.And I I I received an email one
day, and I think it's probablybecause some of the things I was
(13:48):
doing there in Germany. I wasdoing a lot of because as an
immunologist, you do a lot offlow cytometry. So I was doing
some flow. I'm doing I think in02/2008, I was doing something
like fourteen, fifteen, 17 colorflow cytometry already. Okay? So
(14:09):
what instrument was that on?
Peter O'Toole (14:11):
Sorry? What instrument was that on?
Anis Larbi (14:13):
This was highly modified LSR Okay? And we were
doing that, and the probablythey have heard about what we
were doing because then they'rebeing contacted. I received the
email one day. Oh, we haveidentified you. We'd like you to
join A Star. There was a newimmunology institute to be to be
(14:37):
built. This was 02/2009. And sothen, again, I had to Google it.
Singapore, what are they doing?Is it risky? Is it really
serious? Because, you know, whenyou're alone or when you have a
family, it's a bit different.You know? You got different
considerations. So then wedecided we invited me to go for
(15:04):
a visit. So I was there. And,yeah, it's different culture,
different people, different typeof work. It was to build so to
tell you, they asked me whetherto join because they are
building this big immunologyinstitute, and they wanted to
have several facilities, corecore platforms. One was them,
(15:30):
was flow cytometry, and theywanted me to build that. And
once I build this, they wantedme then to they allow me to do
my own research because this issomething I was doing already.
So that was the big change, bigmove for for us because, you
know, it's interesting. I thinkthe year before I moved, I I
(15:52):
think I bought a house in in inLeon. This is where I'm living
actually now. This is the houseI bought.
Peter O'Toole (15:58):
Oh, okay.
Anis Larbi (15:58):
Because I thought after the postdoc, maybe we'll
move back to France. You know?But no. So we we moved to 11,000
kilometer from there. Yeah.Yeah.
Peter O'Toole (16:11):
Alright. So this is interesting as well. So
you've gone from, obviously,your master's to a PhD to a
postdoc. You're doing your ownresearch. You went to A Star.
You you become your own leadacademic itself as a PI, but you
also headed a core facility. Soyou had you've got a
multihatting, at that point. I'msure many who listen to
(16:32):
Flowstars will understand theimportance of Flow core
facilities. Which part of thejob did you most enjoy? The
leading a core facility andengaging with the technology and
developing applications forusers or your own research? What
what did you prefer?
Anis Larbi (16:50):
This is a tough one, but it's an interesting one.
Yes. I I used to say I had twojobs because I was heading I I I
built and helped build with thesupport of many people and the
the the the freedom from themanagement to to develop what I
(17:13):
think was to be to be to bedeveloped. Here, to answer your
question, I was able to developmy vision of what should be a
core facility, which is veryimportant because you develop,
you think about, you have avision, and you implement it,
which is different from doingsomething that somebody else,
(17:33):
you know, has designed. So thiswas very exciting.
To be honest, it's somethingwhich is because you see the
fruits, you see the peoplecoming, you see the people
using, you see people beingtrained, you see the
publications. I think I likealso the research side. We were
very successful in terms of myresearch, it's, you know, a lot
(17:58):
of publications, goodpublications, a lot of
collaborations, exciting work,clinical trials, really great
also. But what I liked a lot iswhen my people from the Flow
platform, so my operators thathelp the running of the
platform, when they are wereengaged in projects with users
(18:20):
or PIs, and they will includethem in the scientific papers
because of the contributions,because what they bring. You
know, it's where this I wasespecially proud, to be honest,
because then it's them. Youknow? I used to tell them, put
them in the paper. I don't needto be because I'm I'm not the
one doing the work. I'm anenabler and they are doing it. I
(18:41):
was very proud of this, to behonest, because it's not in
every facility that you havethis type of recognition. Right?
And this is something I was veryproud to be honest, and it gave
me motivation. And, of course,the publication from the
academic part, the research, butagain, not for me, for the
(19:02):
student and the postdoc becauseit was a relief for them. But,
yeah, I say a little bit moremaybe the in terms of the
platform than the the academia.
Peter O'Toole (19:14):
It just got me thinking within our own core
facility, within the microscopyand the cytometry side of the
the bigger core facility atYork. I think every one of that
team have been a coauthor onsomeone's publication in the
last twelve months. That's allof I I I say some get more than
others because they're, youknow, more advanced in inputting
(19:35):
more into the research. All ofthem, I think, have got at least
one to their name. That soundscrazy. How, you know I think I
think actually core facilitiesare getting better at that.
People are better at recognizingthe expertise where it's
actually, you know, five, tenyears ago, that wasn't so much
the case.
Anis Larbi (19:54):
Yeah. That's
Peter O'Toole (19:54):
true. Doing well-to-do that.
Anis Larbi (19:56):
Yeah. Absolutely. And and I think it's you know,
when you have a core facility,depending how it works, but
people will tend to think, yeah,I pay for the facility, then
this is the service. You know?And this is something I try to
build differently. It's more therelationship and the
collaboration.
Peter O'Toole (20:12):
Yeah. But but an academic so as a PI, you pay for
your postdoc, but your postdoc,you still coauthored.
Anis Larbi (20:19):
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Peter O'Toole (20:19):
Yeah. Expertise Absolutely. As bigger bulk of
it. At that moment in time,you're using their expertise. I
think the problem is a lot ofcore staff tend not to explain
what they've just done isactually quite special, and they
just make it look easy. Eventhough they probably just
developed a new pipeline oroptimized a new application that
(20:41):
wasn't possible before and usethat skill so it is
developmental. It is impactful.But for the for the non user,
just think, oh, but that's whatyou do. That was easy for you.
And actually, no, it's not. It'sthat level of skill that we have
to convey that. We have tocommunicate that.
Anis Larbi (20:58):
That's true.
Peter O'Toole (20:58):
So go on very quickly. Core or academic? Go
on. Which one? You gotta pickone.
Anis Larbi (21:04):
Core. Oh,
Peter O'Toole (21:06):
okay. Well, it's a good choice. I I would I would
agree wholeheartedly. So youbeat you were at A Star
Singapore, and then you'veobviously switched to Betancourt
at that point. And I I've hadstar I've had, postdocs come to
my office and say, Pete, I'mlooking to switch jobs out of
(21:29):
academia, and I'm looking atworking for a company. And, but
people are saying to me, oh,really? You're going to the dark
side. Now, I've always took thatas humorous just some people
say, yeah, I've never seen it asa dark side. But actually, I
think people were actuallygenuinely saying to them, why
(21:50):
would you want to do that? So a,did you meet that, I would say,
academic snobbery at that pointthat it's that it's not
equivalent or is good or ismeaningful? Where would we be
without the product and withoutthe companies? We'd be nowhere.
So, of course, it's vital. Butdid you meet any of your peers
(22:11):
that said, oh, why would youwant to do that?
Anis Larbi (22:15):
Yes. Yes. It's I got this. I was recently in in in in
Qatar to present on a in thesymposium, scientific talk
about, you know, bacteriologyand circular economy and things
like that. And in the end,somebody asked me because
(22:35):
there's always the bio where youcome from, etcetera. We saw some
probably some publication andthings like that. And one of the
the question from the chair ofthe session was nothing to do
with my talk. He asked me whydid you left why you left
academia and why you joined, youknow, a company. You know? I was
a I was a bit surprised to behonest, but I I got this very
(22:57):
often. So just to answer, I gotthis very often.
Peter O'Toole (23:02):
Did it you off? Did it offend you?
Anis Larbi (23:05):
Sorry?
Peter O'Toole (23:05):
Did it put you off going, and did it offend you
that people were thinking likethat?
Anis Larbi (23:10):
No. No. I don't. For me, it's it's on the contrary, I
like when people ask it becausesometimes we have misconception
about doing this transition andabout what is working in the
company is, which is different,obviously. There's not much
education about, you know, howyou could do this transition and
(23:33):
and how it is working in acompany, although it's different
from company company to company.
When people ask me, I askmyself, okay. I was it do I have
any regrets, or was it I'm stillokay with that decision? And
that that's the only thing. But,otherwise, no, I take it very
nicely, and I think I know thatmany people would like to, and
(23:56):
this is something maybe youknow?
Peter O'Toole (23:57):
Mhmm.
Anis Larbi (23:58):
Many people would like to, but for them, it's a
bit you know, it's as you said,it's the dark side. You know?
But this guy seems to still behappy, so maybe he's not so bad.
So that's why they ask.
Peter O'Toole (24:09):
Do do you ever get people within industry
because this I I know a fewpeople who've moved back into
academia. It's the same thing. II'd love to know, actually.
Maybe I should go and ask one.It's the same question asked of
them. Why are you going back tothe dark side with academia? I I
wonder if it flips the other wayas well.
Anis Larbi (24:31):
Yeah. But I think you have probably have more
people going from academia to toto industry in in from what I
know Yeah. And and less on theother the other side the other
way. But, yeah, it's it's a verydifferent way of but if you are
able to work in both and to dothis transition, it means also,
(24:51):
in my opinion, that you have thethe skills to to do both
probably. And then you may findI don't I don't know. Maybe in
in couple of years, I'm goingback to to academia. Who knows?
You know?
Peter O'Toole (25:07):
Why so why did you flip from academia into
industry?
Anis Larbi (25:13):
I think there are two reasons. It's as as as
scientists, you know, we we wecontribute to the society by
advancing the knowledge, helpingas much as we can, and
eventually to translate some ofthis research into practical
(25:34):
applications and utility to toin this context is health. And
so when you think about it, youhave a bit of in terms of your
own, how can I say that, ethic,and this applies also on the
industry side, is what am Idoing? How am I contributing? Am
(25:58):
I are my skills and what whatI'm doing? Is it the best
contribution to the society? CanI do better? You know? And as
scientists, we always have tohave this, you know, this
criticism into what we are whatwe are doing. Not just the
result of the Western blot, buthigher level. What am I doing?
How it's relevant? And it's alsothanks to, you know, when I was
(26:21):
in A Star, when you write grant,you write you are you are
writing grant at that time, theydon't just ask you how many
paper you're gonna publish. Theywere asking you how it impacts
the society, how it impactshealth recommendation, how many
spin off company you are able toto to to to to get out of it. So
it's, you know, it's were tryingto push us to the to the, you
(26:44):
know, the impact of what you'redoing. Okay? I'm not saying it's
always good because, you know,we have enough in our plate as
scientists to publish publishingalone is a is a is a piece is a
is not a piece of cake. So butstill it opened my mind into
that. And then I thought, okay.Is my contribution the best in
(27:07):
what I'm doing? We published alot of work, nice publications,
I think. We have had enoughmoney to do my research, invited
in conferences, so I wassuccessful with it in a way, but
still I felt that something wasmissing. This comes from when I
was discussing with people, thecompanies coming to my lab and
(27:29):
say, hey Alice, we have this newtechnology, we have this new
application, and sometimes Ifelt that there's a gap also in
the industry in the way theydevelop or they think about
product and how this can beuseful to scientists. And and I
wanted to consider how can I bein the middle of that and help
(27:51):
scientists get better solutionsand scientists go faster to to
their research researchendeavor? And this is what I was
thinking, know, and talking withpeople from the industry, so
when I go to conferencesvisiting the booth, but talking
to the people there, know whatyou're doing and how is it in
the company, how you generateyour product, I felt that
(28:14):
probably there's also a gap inthe industry in getting people
that were doing this, that werein academia for so many times,
and that how maybe they can helpthem be closer to the research
community.
Peter O'Toole (28:31):
So I I'm gonna take it back. So you're now in
in the corporate world. But if Itake you back to when you were
really young, can you rememberwhat the first job was that you
wanted to do?
Anis Larbi (28:45):
Yes. I wanted to work in a lab. I wanted the the
white coat, the lab coat.
Peter O'Toole (28:51):
Really?
Anis Larbi (28:52):
Yeah.
Peter O'Toole (28:52):
Yeah. But from the age of what? 10? Nine, 10?
Anis Larbi (28:56):
Yes. Yes. Something like that. Absolutely. Yeah.
Peter O'Toole (28:58):
You didn't want to be a footballer, an
astronaut?
Anis Larbi (29:02):
No. No. No. No. I was really fascinated by the
world of biology.
Peter O'Toole (29:10):
And now you've swapped out your lab coat.
Anis Larbi (29:13):
Yes. I still put the lab coats from time to time when
I visit hospitals and stuff likethat, but no pipetting anymore.
Peter O'Toole (29:22):
So so what is your role at Beckman Coulter?
Anis Larbi (29:26):
So and and it's it's important question here is when
you move to to company, it's notit's it's not easy because you
you are from and I will answeryour question, but but you move
from writing grants, hiringpeople, training people, getting
(29:47):
papers, and getting visibilityfrom the community, trying in
the meantime to get developmentmoving up in your career. Okay?
And you are moving from a verydifferent system, and you don't
know how it works in thecompany. Okay? So what is
important is to also land in aposition to answer your question
(30:11):
where you also feel comfortable.Moving from this academia role
to something that is not alignedwith what you can do and you
feel comfortable, this is morethan risky. Okay? And so that's
why in moving to BeckmanCoulter, actually, my my role is
is called medical and scientificaffairs. So I'm a senior manager
(30:34):
in the in the company, and myrole is I mean, we have
different functions as medicaland scientific affairs, but to
make it in one sentence, theytap on our expertise and
experience as scientists withyears of experience in the lab,
in the research, to help insidethe company to of level the
(30:55):
knowledge, the capacity, helpthe company maybe developing
better products that are morealigned with what scientists do,
do update in the research, inwhat is trending in the
community, in scientificcommunity, where the field is
going, but also talking to stilltalking to scientists a lot,
(31:16):
actually going to conferencesand to talk to those scientists
to to to understand what'swhat's evolving in the field.
Peter O'Toole (31:24):
Just thinking about this. I I get all that
experience that you have. Theythey that's what they're buying
in for. They bring you overbecause you got all the
expertise, the experience, youknow what the customer wants
because you you were thecustomer. But, obviously, over
time, that's gonna wane becausethings change behind the scenes.
Have you thought about goinginto a lab and shadowing for a
couple of weeks or doing acouple of labs? One week in one
(31:46):
lab, one week in another lab,just to get that vibe back and
just to have your ear right onthe ground of just the the the
the ordinary user, rather peopleat conferences who are gonna be
a flea in your ear becausethey're gonna have agendas to
push. But, actually, just beingaround and just getting a feel
for how things are moving today,where the different technologies
are emerging, how they'reoverlapping, have you thought
(32:08):
about doing that?
Anis Larbi (32:10):
Actually, it's an interesting, it's an interesting
idea. And, no, to answer yourquestion, I do read a lot,
though. I do read a lot, and Iam still a lot in contact with
the research community. I have akind of a big network, so I when
I need information. But it'strue. It's not the same when you
(32:31):
are in the lab. I fully I fullyagree, and it's not something
you can you know, that's alsosome of the things as a as a
when you are a PI or a postdoc,you can travel, go to a
different lab, different city orcountry, go for, like, one week,
two weeks, three weeks, onemonth to learn a technique or
(32:52):
get some data. It's notsomething we do we do so easily.
Peter O'Toole (32:58):
Would say I guess it's not you're you're not at
that moment in this is moretraining, isn't it? It's almost
like top up training.
Anis Larbi (33:05):
Yeah.
Peter O'Toole (33:05):
And rather than that because you're not gonna
get sales out of it. That's notyour purpose of being there.
You're not gonna find your nextmarket lead. But
Anis Larbi (33:12):
Yeah.
Peter O'Toole (33:12):
I found an excuse to get you to York.
Anis Larbi (33:15):
Thank you for the invitation, and I accept your
invitation.
Peter O'Toole (33:18):
There you go. You'll be more than welcome. As
you well know, you'll be morethan welcome. I asked you what
you wanted to be when youattend. If you could do any job
in the world for a day or aweek, just to sample what what
it'd be like to be in that typeof job, what job would you go
for?
Anis Larbi (33:43):
A job where you really make impact. And it's
it's not really a job, but it's,you know, when you see sometimes
what's happening in a in in inin some parts of the world at
the at the moment and probablysince decades is where you have
a impacting direct impact inlives. You know? And and this is
(34:05):
aligned with why also I movedfrom from academia is how you
have a better impact. So I thinkit can be any type of job as
long as you see the impact inthe life of the the individual.
Yeah. It can be a surgeon. Itcan be a policeman. It can be a
fireman probably working in inin NGOs, supporting these these
(34:29):
people, things like that. Yeah.
Peter O'Toole (34:31):
Okay. What was what was your first cytometer?
Anis Larbi (34:37):
This was I remember it was in 02/2001, if I'm not
mistaken. And the the the thethe so Thomas, at that time, I
was starting my master, I think.I say, I have a gift for you. I
said, what is this? And really,it was like, it's coming today,
and it was a caliber at thattime.
Peter O'Toole (34:58):
That was the same. My first was a caliber.
Anis Larbi (35:00):
And but, you know, the difference is, like, you
know, you say, oh, this is thegift for you. This is the guide
how to use it.
Peter O'Toole (35:09):
Bye bye. But you also I remember you got a DVD to
show you how to operate it aswell. Do you remember the DVD or
the CD or whatever 02/2001? Andyou could watch that. And it was
it was actually one of the besttutorials I think I've seen.
Anis Larbi (35:25):
Yeah. No. No. It was it was a very good experience,
actually, and and it was the itwas my first, really, encounter
with one to one encounter withphocytometerium.
Peter O'Toole (35:38):
Okay. So some some quick fire questions. PC or
Mac?
Anis Larbi (35:47):
Mac.
Peter O'Toole (35:47):
God, these are quick fire questions. How long
was that taking you, Mac?McDonald's or Burger
Anis Larbi (35:51):
King? Burger King.
Peter O'Toole (35:55):
Burger King. Okay. Are you an early bird or a
night owl?
Anis Larbi (35:59):
Night.
Peter O'Toole (36:00):
Night. Chocolate or cheese?
Anis Larbi (36:03):
Chocolate.
Peter O'Toole (36:04):
Beer or wine?
Anis Larbi (36:06):
None.
Peter O'Toole (36:07):
No? Tea or coffee?
Anis Larbi (36:12):
Coffee.
Peter O'Toole (36:13):
Oh, okay. What's your favorite food?
Anis Larbi (36:17):
My favorite food is so, originally, I'm from
Tunisia. So it's a Tunisiandish, and it's called couscous.
Probably you know that.
Peter O'Toole (36:26):
Yeah.
Anis Larbi (36:27):
This is my my favorite dish, especially my
mother's. Of course, like manypeople, is couscous. Yeah.
Peter O'Toole (36:34):
Just couscous. That's just like having rice.
It's just a bit come on. Whatwhat how are flavoring your
couscous?
Anis Larbi (36:41):
What do you mean?
Peter O'Toole (36:42):
Oh, couscous over here is just is just the is just
the the grain.
Anis Larbi (36:46):
Yes. Yeah. Because it's not it's not the the the
original version. So theoriginal version of couscous, we
have some gravy, some sauce. InTunisia, it can be spicy because
we eat spicy food in in Tunisiacompared to other countries in
the region. And you haveveggies. It can be carrots,
zucchini, some put potatoes. Youput peas, the peas in there, and
(37:13):
some some meat, some decentmeat, a lot lamb, tend to be
lamb. Mhmm. I should invite youfor a couscous in return of your
invitation to York. Sounds good.In fact, last night's meal was
was a North African couscousmeal that that my wife does
actually.
Good.
Peter O'Toole (37:32):
It's actually You're okay. Yeah. I'm just
checking the doors closed. Itwas actually really good. But,
yeah, I'm the cook of the house.That dish is really good. That's
her dish. I'm quite that thatone's hers. When you cook, do
you have a signature dish? Adish that you like to cook most?
Anis Larbi (37:51):
Yes. Again, it's it's a Tunisian. This is called
it's Tunisian pasta. It's a typeof Tunisian pasta. To summarize,
it's kind of a Arabiata, butspicy, very spicy food. Very
spicy pasta. Yeah.
Peter O'Toole (38:05):
That's cool. That's it. My house, that's my
meal. As in that's I I do that.That that's my sauce. Let me do
it. Do you prefer to wash up orcook?
Anis Larbi (38:14):
Sorry?
Peter O'Toole (38:15):
You wash or cook?
Anis Larbi (38:17):
I cook.
Peter O'Toole (38:19):
You cook. Now is that because your wife's cooking
isn't very good?
Anis Larbi (38:23):
No. No. She cooks she's she's she's a very good
cook. She's better than me. But,you know, there are some things
I'm very bad I have to admit,I'm very lazy. Things that I can
do it, but I prefer to cook. Iprefer creating the challenge of
building, creating something.Then when it comes to the other
(38:45):
part, I'm more lazy. Have toadmit.
Peter O'Toole (38:48):
Okay. But what is your least favorite food? So if
if you went if you if you weretaken out, it was a work dinner
and you're given food, it's aset menu, you have no choice.
What would be the worst thingthey could put in front of you?
Anis Larbi (39:04):
Like, raw meat?
Peter O'Toole (39:06):
Raw meat.
Anis Larbi (39:07):
Yeah. Sometimes they it's I don't know if in every
country they have it, but in in,like, in France, they have,
like, the tartar or some stuff.
Peter O'Toole (39:16):
Yeah. Think that's steak tartar.
Anis Larbi (39:17):
Yeah. It's something I I, yeah, I can't.
Peter O'Toole (39:22):
That that's quite a good shout. TV or book?
Anis Larbi (39:29):
TV, of course not. Books, no. I'm not a big reader.
I read a lot of papers, but I'mI'm not a big reader, I have to
admit.
Peter O'Toole (39:40):
Okay. France or Tunisia?
Anis Larbi (39:45):
Depends for what? It's a very easy answer.
Peter O'Toole (39:50):
Okay. Tunisia or Germany?
Anis Larbi (39:53):
Tunisia.
Peter O'Toole (39:55):
Germany or Singapore?
Anis Larbi (39:58):
Singapore.
Peter O'Toole (39:58):
Singapore or Tunisia?
Anis Larbi (40:03):
Tunisia.
Peter O'Toole (40:07):
Canada or Tunisia?
Anis Larbi (40:12):
Tunisia. It's tough.
Peter O'Toole (40:15):
France or Tunisia?
Anis Larbi (40:17):
France or Tunisia? I mean, I'm French, and I'm
Tunisia, and I'm I'm really I'mreally both both are in my
heart, and I think it's it'sit's interesting you ask.
Sometimes you you it's difficultto answer. It's not for it's not
for diplomatic or politicalreasons. It's really because
(40:38):
it's this this diversity ofculture is something you don't
want to split because it's yourit's your nature. And I feel
that for me, it's not likebetraying if I say France or
Tunisia. No. It's it's because Idon't feel that I have to
separate it because it's it'swhat really and what what you
(40:59):
are. Of course, it can be 55, 40five, but, you know, percentage
is not something relevant.
Peter O'Toole (41:05):
It's based I was just trying to get you into
trouble.
Anis Larbi (41:07):
Yeah. No. No. You are very good at it.
Peter O'Toole (41:13):
Star Trek or Star Wars?
Anis Larbi (41:16):
Star Wars.
Peter O'Toole (41:17):
Do you have a favorite film?
Anis Larbi (41:21):
A favorite film? Yes. It's it's it's a it's a
movie when I was young. I don'tknow if the the the name is the
same. It's called the Goonies.
Peter O'Toole (41:31):
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The Goonies.
Anis Larbi (41:33):
I I I show I also show it to my kids just be you
know, the the spirit of thismovie, I I like it very much.
It's very kind of innocent. It'sjust the movie for fun, and it's
funny. And, of course, itreminds you of your childhood.
Peter O'Toole (41:54):
Favorite color?
Anis Larbi (41:56):
Blue.
Peter O'Toole (41:59):
So not PE or APC or PE Texas red. No. You say
blue.
Anis Larbi (42:06):
Blue.
Peter O'Toole (42:06):
Dappy. You could have said dappy at least.
Anis Larbi (42:10):
It's it's true. Yeah. We we the the spectrum of
colors is very fascinating nowthat you mentioned this. And for
for surprisingly, I I but I'veliked blue. Before I know for
cytometry, blue was always my mymy my my favorite colors as my
(42:31):
car is blue, for example.
Peter O'Toole (42:33):
No. Look look look at both of us.
Anis Larbi (42:34):
I'm in blue.
Peter O'Toole (42:35):
So We're both in blue. Yeah?
Anis Larbi (42:37):
See.
Peter O'Toole (42:39):
Yeah. So I I concur. What would you say has
been the best time in yourcareer?
Anis Larbi (42:49):
The best time in my career I still think my time in
Singapore was was a peak in manythings in terms of outputs, in
terms of networking, in terms ofbecoming a leader. This is the
(43:13):
time when I was in Singapore.This is the time where I was
also a Isaac scholar from theYep. The ISAC, the international
city for advancement ofcytometry. It brings it brought
me a lot of visibility andrecognition in in my
institution. So I thinkSingapore was in terms of
(43:35):
publication, it was crazy. Interms of and very importantly, a
team. This is the period where Ihad my own lab, And we were I
had quite big lab, we have 25people. And for me, was very
it's always very excitingbuilding this lab, building this
(43:58):
this research program on thebiology of aging was really
because you see people see youas a leader in what you're doing
in the region where you are.It's a nice feeling.
Peter O'Toole (44:14):
You know, in academia, there's a lot of
freedom. You know, you you yes.You've got your research, but
you could drive it in thedirection you wanted. You have
the core facility that you coulddevelop as you wanted. Do you
miss that freedom that you hadin academia now that you're in
industry?
Anis Larbi (44:33):
Certainly, there is an aspect of the freedom that
you don't have in the industry.This is clear. And and I think
it's it's I like to say to givepositive comments about
transitioning from academia toto industry, but, also, I I like
to make it very clear. You know?You can't decide that you the
(44:58):
company is going this directionbecause you you are not the boss
yet. When you are the boss,maybe.
Peter O'Toole (45:03):
I like the way you said yes.
Anis Larbi (45:05):
As a as a as a PI, you know, a PI, you're like a
startup. You do everything byyourself. You find you find
convince people to give youmoney, then you do it, then you
show the the outputs, and so onand so on. Get the team, train
the team. And then if if you'resuccessful, you are the CEO of
the startup and you get therecognition. Okay? It is very
(45:28):
different. You have to workwithin the organization. Okay?
And, yes, you miss the freedomof doing if you want for one
month, you focus on oneexperiment because you want to
achieve this goal, you you cando it. You take the risk. Okay?
But you can do it. In in in thecompany, you you have
(45:51):
objectives, KPIs, know all theseterms. But to be also
transparent, I have a a freedomin the company where I am now,
Beckman Culture Life Science, isalso because they they
understand my profile. Okay? Andthis is very important when I
(46:14):
say you you you can transit youcan move from academia to
industry, but you have to landin the right position and with
the right people that understandwhat what you are and what you
bring to the company.
Peter O'Toole (46:25):
But that also means they trust you.
Anis Larbi (46:27):
Yes.
Peter O'Toole (46:28):
And they trust your because who you are,
though, you are creating thedirection the company's going in
within your area. You aredictate you're you're the you're
still a group leader in essencein what you're doing, but your
team of, obviously, your seniormanagement have obviously got
faith in you to let you drivethat as you feel fit. They're
(46:48):
not they're not managing you inthat respect.
Anis Larbi (46:51):
Yeah. Clearly, yeah. And and I think this is
something which I I have to sayI'm very lucky, and and and and
and also choosing the company isimportant. And before joining
the Beckman Coulter I I I did myhomework and trying to
understand what is thephilosophy of the company, how
people work there, how peopleare treated, what are your
(47:14):
opportunities in the company togrow, that your voice is heard,
and things like that. And I'mvery lucky. I'm very thankful to
my to my to my to all of thepeople from the organization. I
have been working and I'mworking now to have this trust.
They trust me. They don't manageme in the sense of mana you
know, micromanagement style. Andthat's why they they bring you
(47:37):
to the company because you bringsomething different. If it's to
put you in a in a in a in a in aa in a situation where you don't
express yourself and your yourexpertise, there's no point to
bring you.
Peter O'Toole (47:51):
So who is your current line manager?
Anis Larbi (47:55):
So my my current manager is Eda, Eda Hall. She's
the director.
Peter O'Toole (48:00):
Yeah. Go on. Who's her manager?
Anis Larbi (48:02):
Manager is Mario Kush.
Peter O'Toole (48:05):
Okay. I'm I'm just working out because you
said not yet whose jobs you'relining up. So now they've
watched this. They know thatyou're after them.
Anis Larbi (48:15):
Yes. I'm coming, guys. Yeah. No. But, you know,
but it's it's you know, in inthe this is something also
different from academia andindustry. In in industry, you
you have more possibilities, inmy opinion, more possibilities
(48:36):
to move around, to move up. Inacademia, it's clear. Master
degree, PhD, postdoc, eventuallygeneral lecturer, eventually PI,
and that's Lucky. That's it.
Peter O'Toole (48:50):
Because, again, that's also a pyramid. You
there's only so many positionsthere Yeah. To be taken in a
similar way.
Anis Larbi (48:56):
Yeah.
Peter O'Toole (48:57):
We talked about the best times in Singapore.
What's been the most difficulttime in your career to date? I'm
not saying you're gonna havemore difficult times. Okay. So
what's been the most difficulttime in your career?
Anis Larbi (49:12):
Wow. Most difficult time in my career. Frankly, in
the in this if if in the scale,at some point in in Singapore,
you feel that you're notevolving or or you can feel that
(49:36):
during your career, you don'tget the recognition you should
have Mhmm. Right, for variousreasons. And maybe you're wrong,
maybe you're right. I don'tknow. But you have this feeling,
And this was for me difficult,sometimes the lack of
recognition because the systemis like that, you know, and you
(49:57):
say it's a pyramid and everyyear you promote one person, for
example, and you have 20 people,10 of them should be promoted
based on the and you can youknow? And you feel you feel this
is, you know, you are stuck inthe in the in the system. And I
think it's probably not just me.This happened to me when I was
in Singapore. So I'm not sayingit's because of Singapore. Not
(50:19):
at all. Yeah. Yeah. It's justjust Yeah.
Peter O'Toole (50:21):
Yeah. That and I I I think I'm sure that happens
everywhere. During thosedifficult times, what do you do
at home to relax? What are yourhobbies?
Anis Larbi (50:32):
So I play soccer, football. Mhmm. Okay? I've been
playing since since since I'mvery young. And I was playing
when I went to Canada. Even withwith crazy weather, we are
playing indoor. I was playingwhen I was in Germany also. I
(50:55):
was playing when I went toSingapore. I play football, and
for me, it's really whatrelieves the stress. Yeah.
Peter O'Toole (51:06):
And yet you never wanted to be a footballer. You
wanted to be a lab coat wearingscientist.
Anis Larbi (51:11):
Yes. Because football is friendship for me.
It's just with friends. I Iplayed, like, one year in a
club, but I didn't like thespirit of the competition and,
you know, like that. But thefootball is friendship.
I meet some people now. I'm backin France. I meet some people. I
played with them, like, thirty,forty years ago. Thirty, not
(51:33):
forty, thirty years ago.
And it's people I played withthem, and it's like I met them,
like, yesterday. Okay.
Peter O'Toole (51:42):
You obviously must travel a lot in the job.
Anis Larbi (51:46):
Yeah.
Peter O'Toole (51:48):
How how how do you find all the travel? How how
much are you traveling at themoment? Let's put this into some
context. How much how many daysa week are you away?
Anis Larbi (51:58):
So my my role as as in medical and scientific
affairs, I have a global role,so I I really cover all the
parts of the world. So I tend todo, like, long travels. If you
have I was like so basically,you have two periods in the
year. You have spring and fall,which is the conference spike.
(52:23):
This is where I travel a lot.And apart from these two
periods, I travel here and therefor different type of
conferences. But you know, I tryto merge my efforts, like I was
in Australia in April, think Iwent to Melbourne, So I used
this opportunity to do a stop inin Singapore and then go to
(52:46):
Korea. It seems very close, butit's very it's still six or
eight hour flights, but stilland it's tiring. It's tiring.
It's it's some energy it's someenergy to prepare these trips. I
don't I mean, many people are inthe same situation, but you need
to prepare what you're gonnapresent or what you're gonna the
(53:08):
meetings you're going, thepeople you're going to meet. And
the most difficult part for meis when you travel, you don't
work. You don't move the emaillist, and you know what I mean?
So when you're back home, youend up with this ton of load of
work you have to do.
Peter O'Toole (53:26):
You not do that in a hotel room?
Anis Larbi (53:30):
Yeah. But, you know, I like to sleep also.
Peter O'Toole (53:32):
I I I no. I have to keep on top because
otherwise, the mountain justgets too high.
Anis Larbi (53:39):
Yeah. That's true. That's true.
Peter O'Toole (53:41):
So constantly wherever I went from on a train,
if I'm in an airport, I'll beI'll be working through them
still.
Anis Larbi (53:48):
Wow. Yeah. I try I do this sometimes obviously,
but, you know, when you end upafter you work, you have the
work dinner. It's go back to thehotel. It's 11PM. Next morning,
you wake up. It has 06:30 orseven. So yeah. Yeah. I'm not
complaining. Yeah. I love what Ido.
Peter O'Toole (54:08):
Well, yeah, you could well, I can tell you enjoy
well, love what you do, and andit it it always has its benefits
once you're there. It's justgetting there. Get the logistics
are always there's alwaysstress, isn't there?
Anis Larbi (54:21):
True. Yeah. Yeah. That's in in everything you do,
small or big task, if it's for apositive or negative thing,
there's always some stress. It'sa matter of how you deal with
that.
Peter O'Toole (54:36):
So in your career, you have any regrets?
Anis Larbi (54:43):
In my career, I have any regrets. Sometimes, yeah,
sometimes you feel you could domore.
Peter O'Toole (54:52):
But could you really?
Anis Larbi (54:55):
Yeah. Yeah. You can always you can always no. It's
you know, they are there I mean,it's not like you could do more,
but, you know, we when when youyou have a PhD, the day you are
you're okay. You do your defenseand you have PhD now. Despite
you have your PhD, you have thisdegree, there are many things
you are not trained for. You'renot trained for how you manage
(55:17):
your budget, how you manage yourtime, how you optimize your
research. You're not so, ofcourse, this is the type of
regret I have, but not because Iwas lazy. It's because we were
not and I think some of theresearch programs, the the the
the the graduate program now,they they include this type of
of of kind of teaching, which Ithink is great.
Peter O'Toole (55:40):
And one last question because we're coming up
to the hour mark. If you couldchange any one thing in the
world of flow cytometry, whatwould you change?
Anis Larbi (55:53):
I will make it compulsory if I have total
freedom.
Peter O'Toole (55:59):
Mhmm.
Anis Larbi (56:00):
I will make I will make it compulsory for
government to provide free HIVtesting and lymphoma leukemia
testing in these poor resourcecountries. Procytometry.
Peter O'Toole (56:15):
And one that the late Howard Shapiro and co would
be very, very much behind aswell and all the work that quite
a lot of I'd I I you are aEmeritus Isaac scholar, and we
know Isaac, are helping as asbest they can, but it's it's
little bits on the grand scalethat really needs to be
(56:37):
addressed. So and it's thank youso much for meeting today. I I
found it fascinating to hear howthe your career has developed
and how you've moved into thecommercial world. And I just get
a feeling that we'll know you'veyou've moved in, you know, the
senior management that actuallyprobably hasn't changed that
much of how you operate. Youmight not have your research
(56:58):
group, but you have your focus,you have your group, you have
your team.
I just got a feeling thatactually you are the same person
doing the same job just withdifferent targets, with
different solutions to try andfind answers to.
Anis Larbi (57:12):
Yeah. We we we as we can contribute, and this is my
take home message would be like,you can contribute from
different manner to theresearch, to the R and D
ecosystem. And I wanted tochange that, and I wanted my
contribution to be maybe moreimpactful, at least from the
(57:33):
angle of how I see it. Andthat's why going to industry is
another way to contribute to it.If you are lucky enough to find
a good company, to find theright position where you can
they can exploit your talent andthen you're happy doing that, I
think that's a that's a a that'sa win win.
(57:54):
And, yeah, I haven't changedmuch in the way I deal with
people, in the way I operate,but then it's to the company to
identify this this and and seeand see in you what could be
useful for them.
Peter O'Toole (58:10):
I do have I've got one extra extra question
then. Please assure me. Tell methe money is better in industry.
Anis Larbi (58:18):
It would be so in general, yes. In general, the
money is better in industry.There are some there are some
this is something people takeinto account, and there are some
countries I I took always theexample of France. So in France,
(58:38):
and I hope it changed, but inFrance, for instance, when you
start as a lecturer, a generallecturer in the university, your
salary is not at all alignedwith the degree, but not at all.
Okay? So you can do any otherjob in the university except a
(58:58):
lecturer. You'll probably havethe same salary. Okay? So this
is something which people aretaking into account, and we have
seen. And just to tell you, inin Singapore, there was this is
something you have to to plan.So in Singapore, they have, for
example, they have decided toreduce the the number of PhD
(59:20):
students because they realizethat maybe there is less
interest now in that because ofthis type of consideration that
they see that maybe the impactis not there or maybe the salary
is not good enough, so why theyshould go for for this type of
care. So it's a it's a peoplehave to think about that. Why
the salary is not up to what thepeople are doing. Being a
(59:43):
scientist is not a job. When Iwas interviewing postdocs, sorry
my answer is a bit long, butwhen I was interviewing
postdocs, I said, look, ifyou're looking for a job, don't
come to my lab. It's not a job.It's not an eight to five. Here
you come for passion. I'm notsaying you should do crazy
hours. It's not the point. Butyou have to have the passion for
(01:00:04):
this work because writing thisrant, doing this work, staying
sometimes over time because ofthe mice or because of the
cells, it's not a typical job.You know? Traveling all these
distance, meeting thesescientists, fellow scientists
around the world is not atypical job. Right? So, yeah,
that's that's something you haveto take into account.
Peter O'Toole (01:00:25):
No. I I think you're bang on. It has to be
your hobby. It has to be yourpassion. It has to be your game.
It's thank you very much forjoining us on Flowstar today.
Everyone who's listened,watched, however you've,
streamed, this one, please go dogo back and look at the back
catalog of Flowstar as well. Somore coming up as well in the
near future. But, Anis, thankyou very much for being
(01:00:48):
inspirational and really helpingeveryone understand what it's
like to be in two differentworlds.
Anis Larbi (01:00:53):
Thanks for the invitation again, and it's
really it was a pleasure, andthanks for doing this. I'm I'm
really sure it's it's gonna helppeople understand if and how
they could do this thistransition, and they can always
contact me or some of the peopleyou are inviting to to to these
sessions to to to discuss on onthis topic. Thanks again.
Peter O'Toole (01:01:15):
No problem. I look forward to shadowing in the
lab.
Anis Larbi (01:01:18):
Yes. Bye.
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