May 30, 2025 • 55 mins
In this episode, Peter O'Toole is joined by Virginia Litwin, the President-Elect of the International Society For Advancement of Cytometry (ISAC).
They discuss Virginia's journey from academia to industry and her pivotal role in the creation and development of CYTO Women, a committee that's having a genuine positive impact on the opportunities available for women in cytometry.
She also shares her experiences in translational science, working closely with clinical trials, and her passion for standardization in flow cytometry.
Watch or listen to all episodes of Flow Stars: flowstars.bitesizebio.com
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Episode Transcript
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Intro/Outro (00:00):
Welcome to Flow Stars, candid conversations
between doctor Peter O'Toole andthe big hitters of flow
cytometry brought to you byBeckman Coulter at Bite Size
Bio.
Peter O'Toole (00:11):
Today, Virginia Litwin, president-elect
president of ISAC, joins me andshe discusses the importance of
diversity in science. Setting upCyTOWomen to advocate for equal
opportunities which has done sowell with in flow cytometry. And
her passion for standardizationto support clinical research.
(00:34):
All this coming up in Flowstars.Hi. I'm Peter O'Toole from the
University of York, and welcometo this edition of Flow Stars.
And today, I'm joined by,Virginia Litwin, who is
president-elect of Isaac. Howare you today, Virginia?
Virginia Litwin (00:57):
I moved to Quebec a few years ago, so,
randomly, I I I just I had tolearn French, and so, randomly,
I will speak French. Sorry.
Peter O'Toole (01:06):
No. That's okay. Actually, ISAC was over Cyto,
rather. So for those who aren'taware, Saito is a big conference
organized by ISAC. It is the bigflow cytometry conference. It
was over there not that longago, wasn't it?
Virginia Litwin (01:21):
Yes. Yes. Two years ago. Completely
independent of of my being here.Oh, no. Last year. Last year.
2023. Yes.
Peter O'Toole (01:28):
Yes. Yeah. Montreal. Montreal. Yeah. Yes.
So, which which was my firsttime to Montreal?
Virginia Litwin (01:35):
Oh, it's lovely, isn't it?
Peter O'Toole (01:37):
It it was really good. It's really friendly,
actually. I find it verywelcoming. Mhmm. Mhmm. Was a
although it wasn't in theirwinter, and I've heard in their
winter, it could be quite cold.
Virginia Litwin (01:49):
Oh, it it's lovely. It's lovely. We have,
about two feet of snow rightnow, and I I I debated about
changing my background here to apicture. I live in the country,
so of my snowy backyard, but I Icouldn't let go of my Saito
women, backdrop, which hopefullyis still showing. Yes?
Peter O'Toole (02:06):
It is absolutely showing. So, actually, so it is
interesting you chose thebackground of Saito women. So
what what for those who aren'taware, what is Cytowomen?
Virginia Litwin (02:16):
Great. Yes. So Cytowomen is a committee within
Cytowomen or ISAC, and, I wasthe first chair. So Johnny
Moore, before she becamepresident of ISAC, she, put
forth this idea to have acommittee to to address the
unique challenges for women andopportunities and biases and
(02:39):
things like that. And so Sightof Women was formed, and she
asked me to be the first chair.And since this is informal, I
will tell you my nephew's anartist, and so I hit him up to
do the logo.
Peter O'Toole (02:52):
So I've never really appreciated the face in
the logo.
Virginia Litwin (02:57):
Yes. It's it's to be the idea was to be more
ethnically ambiguous. And sowhen we formed the first Cyto
women committee, I I picked abroad diversity of women
geographically, ethnically, age,so point in our career, and, it
(03:18):
was really, really fun to tostart.
Peter O'Toole (03:20):
This this might be a difficult question. What
would you say is your most theproudest achievement that Cyto
women has achieved to date?That's a difficult question,
isn't it? I I I would say whileyou're thinking about that then
that play cytometry is one ofthe is probably one of the best
(03:42):
represented male female ratio ofmost of the technologies out in
life sciences. I I certainly inThe UK, you go to them, the
number of female attendees isreally high as a proportion. The
courses that we run at York,actually, unusually, is
predominantly ladies, women thatattend Mhmm. The the the courses
(04:04):
over the men. That that's notbecause women think that it used
to be the other way around, andI've noticed a big change in the
last twenty years. How actuallyflow cytometry is a very welcome
environment, I think, for femaleand other diversities compared
to many others.
Virginia Litwin (04:19):
I think so. I think so. I do have a friend
here, my, local BFF who's a anengineer, and, that is still
predominantly, male and andmaybe less less welcoming,
certainly. Yeah. And when I wasin graduate school, there were,
my class, if you will. So wewere immunology and, virology,
(04:43):
and most of us actually werewomen at that point. So
Peter O'Toole (04:46):
So I've given you a bit of time to think about
maybe the biggest achievement ofcyto women.
Virginia Litwin (04:51):
I I think it was getting it off the ground,
really. And we had at at CYTOtwenty twenty one, I believe it
was our second remote CYTO, wesponsored a viewing of the movie
Picture Scientist. And if youhaven't seen it, I totally
recommend it. And I think it'savailable on Netflix now. So
(05:12):
what we did there is we had topurchase the the access to the
film, and then people could login if you went to the conference
and and view the film. And thenwe had discussion groups
afterwards. We had I don't knowif you remember that conference,
but we had lounges. Right? Like,we called them virtual lounges.
And the discussions in therewere really excellent. And in
(05:35):
that watching the film, I wouldhave said going into it, oh,
I've never experienced, youknow, any, you know, challenges
for being a women a woman in mycareer. And as I watched that, I
was like, oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. And so, it
it just bringing that awareness.And I still have some
(05:55):
colleagues, one friend inparticular who's been a
tremendous mentor to me, andhe's, older than myself, and
just doesn't understand why whywe would have sight of women and
finds it insulting. And I thinkhe's the only person that I've
encountered that has said that,but I think opening up that
(06:16):
dialogue of why we need to lookat the point of view of other
people and and why we need to bediverse. And I think for me,
personally, that is whatSightedwoman has has has brought
to me.
Peter O'Toole (06:31):
And any significant I suppose I suppose
that the individual you'retalking about was one of the
challenges because you're you'rebeing challenged by them for the
for the remit. But do you didyou meet any other obstacles
along the way?
Virginia Litwin (06:47):
I think a little bit being taken
seriously. I mean, you can'ttell on the video, but I'm
small. And so I I think being,you know, taken seriously,
treated as an adult I I I Ihave. Yes. And, you know, of
(07:09):
course, I'm welcome physicaladvances type of thing. Yeah.
And from big to small. Right?From being told you didn't need
to participate in a meeting eventhough you were the subject
matter expert at your company.So and this wasn't this was too
(07:29):
recently to be acceptable, butbeing told you just needed to
sit there and look pretty whenyou were the subject matter
expert. So it's yeah. It'sthere.
Peter O'Toole (07:39):
And that that was in in in an industrial setting,
I presume, commercial setting?
Virginia Litwin (07:44):
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. So yes, and and my
first job out of college, the itwas it was a great lab. I mean,
I've learned so much from thatlab head, but he later told me
that someone else suggested hedidn't hire me as a technician.
He hired three technicians. Andof the three, I'm the one that
(08:07):
remained in science and soscientifically, most successful.
But someone else at theuniversity said, don't hire her.
It's just a pretty distraction.So, yeah, the the things I don't
think about, I I don't butwatching that movie opened my
eyes to that or myrecollections. And what I'm
(08:29):
hoping is that did that forother people as well. It's like,
maybe that is not the correctway to to treat someone. Or
yeah.
Peter O'Toole (08:38):
It's hard to know where to go from that because
that's pretty shocking, isn'tit?
Virginia Litwin (08:42):
Yeah. So
Peter O'Toole (08:44):
I I I and I guess coming from a male background, I
don't get to witness that sidevery often. So Yeah. Anyway, so
it's a very good reason to havesight to women, isn't it?
Virginia Litwin (08:57):
Yes. Yes. And I think also just that that we had
just the whole diversity for forall groups. What what do
different backgrounds bring tothe table? The way of thinking,
what do, what are obstacles thatother people face. So just
having that extra awareness hashas been tremendous. And keeping
(09:21):
with this, I had the privilegeto attend the Australasian
society meeting in twenty twentytwo or three. I'm sorry. And we
had a side of women's session atthat, and we had had some
discussions, and we had apresenter for a Full Stop
(09:42):
Australia, which was addressingsexual harassment. And we had
then a panel discussion on that,and so much came out from the
the panelists and then othereven men in in the audience were
were sharing stories. And itdidn't, you know, it didn't stop
(10:02):
at sexual harassment, just otherobstacles that people faced. And
afterwards, I mean, I was sodrained like I have never been
after a talk. So I think thatawareness is has been a the
success for SITO women. Can we
Peter O'Toole (10:22):
Moving off the cyto women path. You said that
you actually you faced some ofthis in an industrial setting.
So where where have you worked?
Virginia Litwin (10:30):
Okay. I I started out. I I I I knew I
wanted to do biology, and I Iknew I wanted to do human
biology. But beyond that, I Ihad not found my my niche when
I, graduated from university.And I ended up working with a,
(10:51):
an an immunologist, John VanBockel, and he was just a great
teacher. And and and so I I justfell in love with immunology,
and then, we were doingmicroscopy with the I think you
mentioned you had a microscope,fluorescent microscopy. Flow was
still pretty new then. And thenI I ended up getting a job at
(11:14):
UCLA, which was one of theleading, groups in clinical
cytometry, but it was justcytometry in those days.
Peter O'Toole (11:22):
This was was this after your PhD at Iowa?
Virginia Litwin (11:25):
No. Before. Before.
Peter O'Toole (11:26):
Okay.
Virginia Litwin (11:27):
Yeah. So in The US, it's not that unusual to be
a technician and work for a bitbefore going back. I know in
Europe, you you might gostraight through. And so it was
that group. I I was thetechnician for a lot of
postdocs. We were doing flowcytometry. It sounds like
nothing at the time, but thatwas the group that asked the
first question because we'restudying AIDS. What are c d four
(11:49):
levels in human t cells or in inhumans? What are the level of c
d four t cells? And so I andthat group became, like, my
second family and supported methrough graduate school. And
they were, Vy, you should go tograduate school. And so they
sort of pushed me, forward to dothat. And so I've used FLOW my
(12:09):
my whole career, and it's been avariety of virology or
immunology studies.
Peter O'Toole (12:16):
What was your first place cytometer?
Virginia Litwin (12:20):
It was I think it was at at at UCLA, so I I
only stained the samples andbrought them up. And, it's
embarrassing now because, youknow, I'm a leader in slow
standardization and recordkeeping and all of that, but it
actually I I left my samplesand, yes, indeed, on a paper
(12:41):
towel, I had wrote what Istained them with and left it in
the flow lab. And later thatpaper towel came up in a
meeting, and it was like, no.No. This is not acceptable. But
I think I don't know. It was ait was a single laser three
color maybe at at UCLA. Theywere working with Janice Georgie
(13:02):
was, the the lab head there forFlow, and we worked with BD a
lot collaboratively.Collaboratively. So
Peter O'Toole (13:09):
Okay. So probably a would that be a caliber either
at that point?
Virginia Litwin (13:14):
Oh, no. No. No. No. No. Not even a fax four
because I think I I don'tremember. Yeah. Yeah.
Peter O'Toole (13:20):
Wow. Okay. So what's the first cytometry that
you used that
Virginia Litwin (13:24):
you have? Well, again, in graduate school, I I
went to the flow core, and itwas, but when I did my postdoc
with Lucia here at DNx, we had,the bench top model, which was,
I think, the fax four. What wasit called? But we did had a a a
benchtop mount model.
Peter O'Toole (13:45):
Okay.
Virginia Litwin (13:46):
And then I, when I was at Bristol Myers, we
we bought a sorter, and I boughta Vantage. And then later, I
bought a Caliber and then Kanto.So yeah. And I've just bought
four, a five SEs. So it's Yep.The world.
Peter O'Toole (14:07):
That's a fair few. So so you then went on to a
PhD? Mhmm. The wife so whathappened so after your PhD, what
did you do after your PhD? Wasit straight into industry?
Virginia Litwin (14:19):
Oh, no. No. I went to I went to DNx, which I
don't know if you're familiarwith, but it was then a,
research institute owned bySharon Plough, but completely
independent. And DNx is where,Tim Masman and Bob Hopman worked
and t h one, t h two conceptscame out of there. They cloned I
(14:42):
l 10. They cloned GM CSF,identified I l 10. So it was
just a great collaborative placeto do research. We had a
immunology section andmolecular. And and so we were
funded by Sharing Plough, so weweren't having to, do grants,
and it was not at allcompetitive or or cutthroat. And
(15:06):
I I worked, in Lewis andLanier's lab, who will be our,
keynotes, our hook lecture at atCyTO twenty twenty five. And he
was studying NK cells, which isI worked on on NK cells when I
was a technician at UCLA andalso Fc receptors. My graduate
work focused on Fc receptors. Soit was, I did research there,
(15:31):
and it in the Bay Area, it was alot of us went from there into
biotechs more than into,academia. Yep. So that's I went
to a biotech and then to BristolMyers and then to a contract
research organization where Iwas then that's when I quit
(15:53):
using Los Altamji as a researchtool, and it was now, I I got
more focused into the the thetechnology, and I had to learn
standardization and validationof flow cytometry.
Peter O'Toole (16:11):
Which, if I'm honest, it's probably it's gonna
be probably the for me, one ofthe least interesting aspects of
a role is that standardization.And, yeah, I presume you have a
real passion forstandardization.
Virginia Litwin (16:25):
I do, and it is not at all the least
interesting. So, I gave a talkrecently, and and talking about,
you know, how do you do rareevents. I bet you think rare
events are interesting. Right?
Peter O'Toole (16:39):
No. I'm with you. Come on.
Virginia Litwin (16:41):
Okay. So it it's everything you've ever
heard at a cyto meeting goesinto a rare event assay. You
need to start with a fullyoptimized assay, how we should
optimize it today, not how wedid in the last century, where
you are really optimizing yoursignal. You are are going to be
(17:01):
able to, identify dim, eventsand rare events. And then you
need to make sure you have theproper gating and the proper
fluorophores. And, then you needto understand what's the
variation of my assay and andhow low can I how how few of
events can I reproduciblymeasure? And how do I know that
(17:27):
I have only those events in mymy gait and not everything else?
Bad comp, bad doublets, badspread. So no. No.
Standardization is is iseverything put together.
Peter O'Toole (17:40):
And fundamentally, vitally
important, especially with thecontract research agencies that
you're working for.
Virginia Litwin (17:46):
Mhmm.
Peter O'Toole (17:46):
My goodness. They have to be on the ball and and
near perfect.
Virginia Litwin (17:52):
And that's so when I started bring, working at
Bristol Myers, I was doing thephase one clinical trials, and
that was I mean, I think a lotof people thought, oh gosh.
Working at a pharma would be,like, not fun for a scientist.
But it was really excitingbecause we were I was doing the
biomarker assays for the firstin man trials, mostly for
(18:13):
oncology, some, immunologicaldiseases as well. And it was
really exciting to see thepatients respond, what new
target are we hitting, and andhow can I support that with my,
biomarker assay? So
Peter O'Toole (18:28):
So it really is it's very close to frontline,
isn't it? Because you're gettingvery close to direct impact.
Virginia Litwin (18:35):
Yeah. Yes. And then it's it's so for people
that aren't here, it's I latchedon to the idea of, you know,
translational science,translational medicine. So if
you're starting in a researchlab and in fact, the things I
did in my postdoc are now goingin in into therapies. So you
wanna make sure that your datais as robust as possible so that
(18:58):
if someone takes it to that nextphase in translational science,
that it's repeatable, and and itcan move on.
Peter O'Toole (19:10):
So within those roles, you've you're obviously a
big advocate for not being inthe academic world that does a
great role outside the academicroles and the environment. What
would you say the biggestadvantage is being out working
outside of academia?
Virginia Litwin (19:30):
I I I don't I don't know. I mean, with my role
at ISAC, my new role, I I do I'mthe first ISEC president that's
not from academia. So I dointeract with a lot of the,
academics. I don't I don't know.I think probably for me, it's
it's having that impact. So canI have an impact on the program?
(19:56):
Can I can I help our our myclients do a better assay? Can I
help that drug? A lot of peoplesay, over in a CRO, you know,
our our goal is the patient. Andfor me, it's the drug. I I want
that drug to go forward, and Iwant to if it's if it should.
And I wanna support it so thatthe regulatory agencies can make
(20:18):
the right decision about thatdrug, which ultimately will help
people. So for for me, it's it'sthat that impact, but it's it's
not to say you don't have it inacademia. So
Peter O'Toole (20:31):
It it does Cyto actually have a a section or a
meeting for commercial flowcytometrists?
Virginia Litwin (20:41):
We have I think I did my first workshop at Saito
in 2013, and, and I think a lotof people were surprised that,
yes, this is interesting, orpeople in, pharma and and CROs
are are doing interesting work.And so we've had, workshops
(21:01):
almost every every year since.Mhmm. We we do have a flow group
within the American Associationof Pharmaceutical Scientists.
But I think what we're doingwe're well represented at ISAC,
and we the standardization, thevalidation, we're we're bringing
that forward. But it's itdoesn't need to be a separate
(21:25):
group. I
Peter O'Toole (21:27):
it it was just thought so the Royal
Microscopical Society, we don'twe don't have anything to that
side of it, although we got,obviously, industrial people on
the different sections. Mhmm.But there's this, there's a
movement in The UK called Elrig,which
Virginia Litwin (21:40):
Oh, yeah.
Peter O'Toole (21:41):
So so which is not for profit, but it's
commercially orientated forpeople in pharma, biotech Mhmm.
Standards and brings in academiaas well, it sort of hybridized
them, but has a very much focus,on that biopharma side. So I
just didn't know if there'sanything equivalent to the state
to where the site could couldlook at that across across the
pond.
Virginia Litwin (22:03):
Elrig. Yeah. Possibly.
Peter O'Toole (22:07):
It's it's just a thought while we're talking.
Mhmm. On another side. So,actually, I I I obviously, this
is very organic. I did I didhave to I've I've never met you
before in person, so this isamazing. But what I was blown
away by is just how manydifferent, societies that you're
involved with as well. So,obviously, CyTO in a very, Isaac
(22:30):
in a very big way. But also theAPPS, so the American
Association of Pharmaceutical,Scientists, ICCS as well on
there. So you're on the advocacycommittee for that. You're on
the, oh, community section forevery why so many societies?
Why active on so many societies?
Virginia Litwin (22:50):
I think so going back to my first, job in
pharma where our our lab headwas was forward thinking enough
to bring in, my role. And so Iwas doing the cell and molecular
biomarker assays, and he wantedto bring up flow cytometry. And
then, really, he was paralyzedby the, flexibility of the
(23:14):
technology. And that's where notreally in a in a the nicest,
easiest way, but I was sort ofpushed in the deep end of the
pool to learn standardization.And I went to my first ISAC, and
I was complaining. And JoanneLanigan said, Virginia, he's
right. And and ISAC had justwell, there was no clinical
(23:35):
cytometry then. So there thensplit. So there was a big
movement on standardization, andso I don't know. I I guess what
you're saying is I I needed topull when you're doing
biomarkers, you're not clinicaland you're not research. So
you're pulling from both. Andthen friend from UCLA, John
(23:58):
Ferguson, I started a groupwithin, AAPS, the the flow
cytometry group, because wethought, okay. We wanna push the
industry to talk about howshould we validate flow
cytometry methods and how can weuse this technology to support
drug development. And so wepicked the AEPS because we
thought they were more alignedwith the the regulatory agency.
(24:23):
And then at one point, someoneat the FDA told me, no. Just do
a clinical standards, guidancedocument. Just take that
information after you've writtenall those papers, and maybe then
we'll pay attention to you. Sothat's it's sort of I guess, you
know, we're we're chimeric here.We need a little bit of reach.
Peter O'Toole (24:44):
So what's your favorite society?
Virginia Litwin (24:47):
Well, I said no.
Peter O'Toole (24:50):
It's a bit was a loaded question, wasn't it? So
how are you looking forward tobecoming president?
Virginia Litwin (24:58):
I I I think I've settled in the role. At
first, I I was just a little bitit was a little bit too
daunting. You know? We're we'rewe're vocal. We have a lot of,
brilliant people, and, so I wasa little bit overwhelmed. But
now I I think I realized what myskill set is that will be of a
(25:18):
benefit to the society. And so,yeah, I'm I'm I'm really looking
forward to it. And and that isto some of the past presidents
talk to me pretty often and, youknow, really passionate about
keeping the society movingforward in all our diversity.
Right? The engineers, the theprogrammers, the SRL, the
(25:43):
researchers, the the pharmapeople. And so I I just want to
make sure we have a big tent andeveryone benefits and the
society and the technologygrows.
Peter O'Toole (25:57):
So what do see as the biggest challenge for for
Isaac going forward?
Virginia Litwin (26:03):
Well, I I think we we're in a good we're in a
good place now. You know, wewent a few years ago from being
a managed society, and now we'rehave independent management. And
that's been you know, nothing isas straight exponential curve
there. So I think as we continueto grow and bring in new members
(26:26):
and bring in diverse members.Right? So Mhmm. I think that's
our challenge. I think we'll doit for sure, but that that's it.
It's bringing in younger people,getting really good scientific
diversity in our tent.
Peter O'Toole (26:45):
I probably have changed subject completely now.
I heard how you got intoscience. You want to do human
biology with your first degree,which I think was Santa Barbara.
If I take you back to when youwere six, seven, eight, nine,
10, those very early days, canyou remember what the first job
was that you ever wanted to do,what you wanted to be?
Virginia Litwin (27:10):
Probably a ballerina, but I really wasn't
very good. You know?
Peter O'Toole (27:15):
It's a good answer, though. From a
ballerina, was it straight to ascientist? What did you was
there any intermediate stepsyou're thinking, oh, I quite
fancy that job?
Virginia Litwin (27:26):
No. I I think that was it. You know? I have
more talent in this the scienceworld. But and I I think for me
also, it was it was very obviousfor me that's where my aptitude
was. And much as I I loveballet, I wasn't really the
Peter O'Toole (27:44):
Mhmm.
Virginia Litwin (27:45):
The the best. You know? So
Peter O'Toole (27:49):
That's a good answer. And you're still dancing
through your career, soarguably, it's not so far off.
It's just in a different way. Ifyou could do any job for a day
over a week, a day in the lifeof another job, not inside not
not in clinical or academia.What job would you like to,
(28:10):
sample? What would you like totry?
Virginia Litwin (28:13):
I've never thought of that.
Peter O'Toole (28:17):
Have you never looked at someone who's working
and think, oh, I'd love to knowwhat it's like to work alongside
them or to do that job? Or
Virginia Litwin (28:25):
No. I it becomes obvious to me jobs I
couldn't do. Like, I write alot, but, like, journalists have
to I'm fairly good writer, Ithink. But I I mean, I am slow.
Every word is just a pain. It'sa slow birth. And journalists, I
think, gosh. They have to comeup with that on on the spot and
go into war zones and write agood good story off their cell
(28:48):
phone. So I think of jobs Ican't do, but I like to cook. So
maybe I my husband always tellsme I should be opening a little
restaurant, which, again, I'd beterrible at. But I I do come up
with some nice menus for for formy n of one customer here.
Peter O'Toole (29:07):
So so, actually, I I was I was going to to later
on, I'll ask some quick firequestions, but I'm gonna bring
one of those forward now. Iusually ask, what is your
signature dish then?
Virginia Litwin (29:18):
Now that I have one I'm vegetarian, and I've
been vegetarian since, I had myfirst apartment at at
university. So, what I like todo is, put together a a full
menu. So I I just as always,take on too much, and so I'm
just going crazy at the end, butI I I pull it off. So and I'll
(29:40):
tell you this. During COVID, we,of course, couldn't go out to
dinner, And so we startedhaving, dinners at home on the
weekends so I could spend moretime cooking. And, and I I had
to learn French to to getresidency here in Quebec. So
started posting on on Facebookevery week my my menu in French,
(30:02):
and I called it Cafe Corona. SoI I'm I'm had a lot of nice nice
dishes there. It's justvegetarian cooking.
Peter O'Toole (30:12):
And and you published those online, did you
say?
Virginia Litwin (30:14):
On on on Facebook till till we all got
too sick of it. Yeah.
Peter O'Toole (30:19):
And and did your friends and family who looked at
it, they try and get commenting,feeding back?
Virginia Litwin (30:24):
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, for
years, I've posted my somethings. Yeah.
Peter O'Toole (30:29):
But you're posting it in French. Can all
your family do French?
Virginia Litwin (30:33):
The you know, my attitude, no, was, I have to
learn French, and the rest ofthe world is going to suffer
with me. If I feel the need toexpress it in French, I I will.
Don't put me on the spot here,please.
Peter O'Toole (30:46):
Yeah. How have you found learning French?
Virginia Litwin (30:53):
It was it was good. It's it's harder being
somewhere that's bilingual. Andso the Canadians being so nice,
they they hear your accents,imperfect, and so they might
answer you in English, which I Itake is a is huge insult. That
meant I really was doing poorly.So they'd be easier if I was in
France, for sure. Okay. So I Iyou know, this is going out
(31:16):
there. Anyone wants me to do athree month stint, talk at a
French meeting, I'm there.
Peter O'Toole (31:21):
Why why the move to Canada?
Virginia Litwin (31:24):
I came here for a job.
Peter O'Toole (31:26):
Mhmm.
Virginia Litwin (31:27):
And, I had a couple opportunities at at it
was in 2017 I moved, and, youknow, we sort of decided as a
family. I said to my husband, Isaid, well, pick one of these
places. Where do you wanna live?And he said, well, I can't pick.
It's your career. And I said,I'm not gonna give you anything
I wouldn't want to take. So so,yeah, we came up to Montreal.
Peter O'Toole (31:50):
And how is his French coming on?
Virginia Litwin (31:53):
He had more French at in school than I did,
but only one person in thehousehold, had to take the
French exam.
Peter O'Toole (32:02):
So
Virginia Litwin (32:03):
he has been extremely lazy about it. Yes.
Peter O'Toole (32:07):
And and you have a pet cat. Correct?
Virginia Litwin (32:09):
Yes. And Pierre.
Peter O'Toole (32:11):
How's his French?
Virginia Litwin (32:12):
Pierre is completely bilingual. He speaks.
So
Peter O'Toole (32:22):
perfect. That's a bad pun. I sorry for the pun on
the the perfect bit, but thereyou are. Yes. As it works, so
how how have you foundrelocating? Have you found that
cultural change, the the the theit it's quite it's not it's
never it's always a bit out ofcomfort zone moving to a
different city, let alone indifferent countries. So how have
(32:43):
you found all that?
Virginia Litwin (32:44):
Right. Right. We've moved a lot, but, yeah, it
was more challenging here, andhaving to go through immigration
and everything. And, you know,I'm I'm American. I grew up in
The US. So, yeah, being animmigrant was really it it was
it was a lot, but I I finallygot permanent residency. It's a
(33:06):
lot of forms and a lot of moneyand a lot of everything. So I I
had no idea how that was whatthat experience would be like
being an immigrant. But it andand even though there's, you
know, relationships between TheUS and Canada, especially for
certain positions such asbiologists that you're preferred
(33:28):
profession. So I had it easy inthat regard. Still, it it's it
wasn't all that fun. And I hadjust started a new job, and I
had just started the kickoff forCLSI h sixty two. So all of
that, trying to learn French,you know, full time job, writing
(33:48):
a international guidancedocument. There there wasn't a
lot of time for that.
Peter O'Toole (33:55):
Which I guess means you kind of just moved and
didn't worry about it becauseyou had so much going on.
Virginia Litwin (34:00):
I yeah. It's like yeah. You just and and I I
never think through all thedetails. Whereas other people
will really look I've I've askedother people to, you know, take
over committees for me or thisor that, and they're like, how
much work would it be? Willthis? Will that? And it's like,
I I good or bad, I never I neverask myself those questions.
(34:23):
Sure. I'll do it.
Peter O'Toole (34:25):
So you've got the big document done. You've got
all the you've got the presidentpresidency of Isaac. You've been
on the Clinical Lab StandardsInstitute as an expert panel
member. You're actuallyassociate editor for cytometry
part b. Have you ever steppedback and appreciated how much
(34:46):
influence and impact you've hadon the field?
Virginia Litwin (34:50):
Do I step back and think that?
Peter O'Toole (34:52):
Have you ever just stood back and think,
actually, I have actuallycontributed quite significantly.
I've done quite a bit. Have youever actually just taken time to
reflect on your own impacts? Weyou know, you it's it's common
for us to look at others. So I'mlooking at you now thinking, my
god. You have done so much.You've done so and and really
quite important impacts as well,not just with, but actually in
(35:14):
your professional career, notjust in your charitable societal
career. Have you ever taken thattime and step back to appreciate
what you've done?
Virginia Litwin (35:24):
No. I I I don't think I didn't get that gene. It
it would just seem weird andarrogant. I I don't. I mean, I'm
happy when I see the guidancedocument or papers that I've
written referenced by people Idon't know, but I don't know.
(35:45):
Not public.
Peter O'Toole (35:47):
So the Wallace Culture Award that you was it
last year or the year before?
Virginia Litwin (35:51):
Yeah. Last year.
Peter O'Toole (35:52):
Yeah. Recognition of your contributions cytometry
in the field, surely then youmust realize that actually you
have had a you should be proudof what you've done.
Virginia Litwin (36:03):
Well, it it was very nice. And and I'll tell
you, a lot of my people thatwere in my labs, were there and
my mentors Mhmm. When I I I Igave the talk. And it was it was
it was really nice. But, no, I II I could never just sit around
and say,
Peter O'Toole (36:23):
No. I I I I guess you're not a vain person gonna
be doing that, but it must benice to receive that and just
think, oh, actually, gosh. Yeah.Without realizing it, you've
done this, because it's justwhat you do. It it's what your
your passion has been, but it ithelps the community.
Virginia Litwin (36:40):
What it it I think more than that is it's I
feel privileged. Right? So theand when I got the culture
award, it I it was a careerretrospective talk, but I I
talked about my mentors and howthey helped me. And then the
end, it was like, this is whatwe need to do. And and ISAC and
(37:01):
ICCS as well, very focused onmentoring that that next
generation of scientists. Andwith my role at ISAC is I feel
privileged to to be in the room,to be talking with people like
you, working with JessicaHouston, Johnny Moore, all the
Pauls, Robinson, Wallace, Smith.So I I yes. It it is a
(37:27):
privilege, and I I I am reallygrateful. Yeah.
Peter O'Toole (37:32):
So I I who you you mentioned your mentors. Who
have been your biggestinspirations?
Virginia Litwin (37:41):
They when I started at at UCLA as a as a as
a as a technician, there were alot of women. Right? And they,
some are still my friends. AndJanice Georgie, there's now a
she passed away from uterinecancer, and she there's now a
young investigator award at ICCSfor Janice. And so I they have
(38:05):
really been, a lot of thosepeople, my mentors, but I
mentioned them in the the theculture, talk. But Susan Plager
was a a a new postdoc at, UCLA,and I was her technician. And
she was now we call it,sponsorship, but she recommended
me from my first anythingcommittee and and continued to
(38:29):
support me. She helped me withthe, qualifying exams in
graduate school. She put me onmy first NIH grant, my first
editor role. And it's I, youknow, I don't know why. And and
and Johnny Moore was also veryinstrumental in recommending me
for things. And I think withoutthem, I I I just had these great
(38:54):
opportunities to to do thesethings. And I yes. And those
are, I don't know, inspirations,but they were just so enablers
for me. Mhmm.
Peter O'Toole (39:06):
So that that makes just thinking about it,
helping your mentors, yourinspirations, and how they're
stepping you up. Some of thatwould have been delegation. And
how do you how how would you sayyou manage delegation? Are you a
good delegator?
Virginia Litwin (39:20):
Terrible. Terrible. And I I still, you
know, have to muster up, youknow, some courage and, you
know, to ask someone to to to dothings. You know? So, yeah, that
is not something I I I I amgreat at. You know? So so
(39:43):
probably I I spend more timedoing things I I shouldn't be
doing and yeah. But
Peter O'Toole (39:49):
Okay. So some quick fire questions.
Virginia Litwin (39:51):
Okay. Quick fire.
Peter O'Toole (39:54):
Quick fire. So here we are. Are you an early
bird or night owl?
Virginia Litwin (39:58):
Early.
Peter O'Toole (39:59):
Early bird? PC or Mac?
Virginia Litwin (40:03):
Oh, Mac.
Peter O'Toole (40:05):
Mac. McDonald's or Burger King?
Virginia Litwin (40:09):
Neither. I'm vegetarian.
Peter O'Toole (40:10):
Yeah. If I say that's not gonna help, is it?
Virginia Litwin (40:12):
Although my first paying job was McDonald's.
Peter O'Toole (40:14):
Okay. Okay. What's your favorite takeaway
food or your favorite fast food?
Virginia Litwin (40:21):
Starbucks coffee, almond milk.
Peter O'Toole (40:24):
My son works at Starbucks. That's good.
Chocolate or cheese?
Virginia Litwin (40:28):
Oh gosh. Chocolate. Although cheese and
port is good too.
Peter O'Toole (40:37):
Did I say coffee or tea?
Virginia Litwin (40:40):
Nope. Coffee.
Peter O'Toole (40:42):
Coffee. So chocolate, coffee go well
together, beer or wine?
Virginia Litwin (40:46):
Wine. I'm from California. White or red? Was
that it? Yep. Oh, well, I bettersay red if Paul Robinson is
listening, but I like them both.Yep.
Peter O'Toole (40:59):
Okay.
Virginia Litwin (41:00):
He'll divorce me if I if I say red or white.
So
Peter O'Toole (41:05):
What is your ultimate favorite food?
Virginia Litwin (41:13):
Ultimate favorite food. I think on
Sundays, we go well, we used tohave the paper. Now we don't.
But we would go for a specialcoffee and and a a pastry
somewhere. So I would say rightnow, it's it's a a superb almond
croissant, but maybe not not anordinary. And we have some great
bakeries here in Beaumont. Yeah.So Yep.
Peter O'Toole (41:35):
Whilst it's warm or cold?
Virginia Litwin (41:39):
Either. That's fine. Okay.
Peter O'Toole (41:41):
What is your food nightmare other than meat? Any
style of food or things
Virginia Litwin (41:51):
Too spicy. Too spicy. I can I am a wimp for
spices, so I can handle a tinybit? You know?
Peter O'Toole (41:57):
Do you prefer to cook or clean?
Virginia Litwin (42:00):
Oh, I love them both. I love cleaning. It's the
OCD, which is great. You know, Ihave a virology background, so
it's it's perfect.
Peter O'Toole (42:07):
After cooking? You wanna clean up after
cooking?
Virginia Litwin (42:11):
Yes. Yes.
Peter O'Toole (42:13):
Oh, your husband's very lucky.
Virginia Litwin (42:15):
Well, there's so many reasons.
Peter O'Toole (42:19):
TV or book? Book. What are you reading at the
moment? What's your favoritegenre?
Virginia Litwin (42:29):
I I it does just some good writing. Not
scary. I've done a lot ofbiographies. I just love, David
McClellan. Yeah. Not not trashy,fluffy, but, you know, good good
writing.
Peter O'Toole (42:49):
Okay. Favorite film?
Virginia Litwin (42:55):
Favorite film. I don't know if I have a
favorite, but I I I do like agood movie. Just just just
haphazardly, we watched re on onNetflix recently, Bridget Jones
Diary. I was laughing from theget go. From the credits, it was
(43:16):
funny. So I think a a goodclever movie.
Peter O'Toole (43:19):
Okay. Star Wars or Star Trek?
Virginia Litwin (43:22):
Neither.
Peter O'Toole (43:25):
And favorite color?
Virginia Litwin (43:28):
Brilliant violet. Oh, there's
Peter O'Toole (43:32):
so few guests ever come out with something
like brilliant violet orfluorescein or phycobacterium.
Let's go blue or green oryellow. It's like, come on. Well
done. Proper flow cytometrist atlast. You passed the test. Yeah.
What's your favorite music? Whatdo you like listening to?
Virginia Litwin (43:53):
I like I like rock. My husband's a bit of a
rock historian, I would say. Somy my rock, and I am the
youngest of a large family, so Ithink my music tastes are above
my age. But, yeah, I think allof the early, really good rock.
Peter O'Toole (44:12):
Okay.
Virginia Litwin (44:12):
A lot of the woman singers, Joni Mitchell,
Emmylou Harris, MelindaBrownstead, all of them. Okay.
Peter O'Toole (44:23):
So that that's good to chill out too. Do you
have any hobbies? So when you ifyou've had a stressful day at
work or in your life, what sortof hobbies do you do to chill
out?
Virginia Litwin (44:34):
Well, I pet Pierre, and I I I I put my head
on his his little chest andlisten to him purr, and it is,
better than heroin, althoughI've never really tried heroin.
But that's that's very good. I'ma runner. So, yep, I I put some
music on on, my Sirius radio onon my, iPhone, and I break
(44:58):
running here, lots of trails.
Peter O'Toole (45:00):
What's your distance?
Virginia Litwin (45:02):
An hour. Ten? Ten. Yep. Yep. I'm I'm not fast,
but I I don't remember.
Peter O'Toole (45:09):
I should I should convert that for the Americans,
shouldn't I? Six miles?
Virginia Litwin (45:13):
Yeah. Yeah. Not terribly fast, but I'm just
going for, sanity and fun.
Peter O'Toole (45:20):
Did do do any events?
Virginia Litwin (45:23):
I do. I did I did one recently. My my local
BFF, the engineer, is she usedto do marathons, and, so she in
such great company, she suffersthrough my slow, shorter runs.
And we did a a 10 k a while ago,and I wanna do one this year as
well.
Peter O'Toole (45:41):
But she hasn't persuaded you to do a marathon
yet with her?
Virginia Litwin (45:44):
Oh, no. She wanted me to do a half marathon
with her, and I I wouldn't. So Ijust I'm fine with I'm you know,
my feet are happy. My knees arehappy. Yeah.
Peter O'Toole (45:59):
Yeah. It was yeah. So once you've done the
half marathon, you know you'rehalfway to a marathon, then you
have to do the marathon. Somaybe you better not do in the
half because then you're not
Virginia Litwin (46:07):
Well, I get enough goals. Right? I'm doing
another CLSI document, CyTO2025, blah blah blah. Yeah.
Okay.
Peter O'Toole (46:18):
So outside of those hobbies, what would you
say has been the mostchallenging time of your career
where you probably had to leanon those more often?
Virginia Litwin (46:31):
I I'm not I don't wanna share that.
Peter O'Toole (46:34):
That's cool with me. So I'm gonna I'm gonna flick
it around and say, what's beenthe best time of your career? If
you could ever live a a an era,a a a year, or a moment in your
career, what moment would you goback and relive?
Virginia Litwin (46:49):
It it's it's right now. I mean, last year was
the even I did the ISECpresidency and and before they
had the special election, BobRobinson had approached me about
that. And I'm like, Paul, it's ayear off. Like, you know? And
and that took a long time to toto think about, could I do it?
(47:12):
Would I want to? And then longerto, you know, run it by my
husband. What would you think?And then shortly after that, the
the Coulter award came up, and Ihad been nominated before. And,
you know, no one walks aroundthinking, oh, I hope one day
I'll get the culture award. Butwhen you don't get it, you're
like, because people tell you,oh, I nominated you, and you're
(47:33):
like, yeah. I wish you hadn'tshared. But so that was it was
just really special. And andright now, I I just it's with my
role at ISAC and and with thethe conference, it's like, okay.
What can I do to shape somethingmeaningful to really make a
contribution to the society andall? And a lot of my people that
I've mentored or have been in mylab are doing great, and I'm so
(47:57):
proud. And, you know, they giveyou a drop of credit when it's
it's so I would say right now,it's it's just nice.
Peter O'Toole (48:05):
Okay. And do you have any future predictions of
where we should be going, flowcytometry wise?
Virginia Litwin (48:13):
Yes. We we need to be quantitative. Absolutely.
We need to be we need to be yes.I'm working on that now. We we
need the industry behind us sothat the software will work when
we quantitate our data, and andthen our variability between
everything will diminish, andand we we can can move forward,
(48:37):
and we can use those data inthat whole translational space.
Peter O'Toole (48:44):
With all the so so flick it flick it, in a
different direction again. Withall the different
standardization and standards,do you do much with Nekwaas?
Virginia Litwin (48:54):
I did when I was at at at clinical cytometry.
Mhmm. Because it's very theequivalent in The US would be,
College of AmericanPathologists. And I know they're
and not what I'm doing now somuch, but, yes, when, I was more
involved with ICCS clinicalcytometry. I
Peter O'Toole (49:16):
I only asked some good friends who Liam Whitby.
Virginia Litwin (49:19):
Yes. I know Liam.
Peter O'Toole (49:20):
Ah, okay.
Virginia Litwin (49:21):
That was David David Barnett was, a contributor
to the the, guidance document aswell. He's he's on that. Mhmm.
Peter O'Toole (49:30):
Because I think I think Liam took over from Dave
Denti when it came to Neecraft,as president and CEO. Actually,
he has actually been I think hewas on the first series of this
of Flow Stars.
Virginia Litwin (49:39):
Oh, well. Yes.
Peter O'Toole (49:40):
Really? Well, on go. To go watch. Although, I
would say we did it in anevening or at dusk, and he got
darker and darker and darker.So, actually, if you listen to
it, it's fine. If you watch it,he's you might as well just
listen to it because at the end,he goes very dark. He's also a
runner, isn't he? Though he alsohas that in common, that he's
(50:01):
Yes. Yes. Passionate aboutstandards. So passionate. So,
again, similar to yourself. Sopassionate about standards and
the environment and supporting.It's so, yeah, I I guess a UK
equivalent almost to yourself inmany ways.
Virginia Litwin (50:16):
And they've done a lot of really good papers
and really good work on saying,okay. We put out this standard.
How does it really work? Let'sdo a inter laboratory study on.
Peter O'Toole (50:28):
Because I I've had Dave in York, but Liam as
well and others from the classand standards. We run the RMS
flow cytometry course, which hasa whole clinical session. So
Mhmm. For three days ofclinical. So there's a lot of
content around that withdifferent tutors coming in, of
which Liam it's always good tosee Liam. He's all ah, he also
(50:51):
likes coffee like yourself andchocolate. A lot of
similarities. Good chances. Howmuch, throughout your different
throughout your career, how muchhave you managed to travel?
Virginia Litwin (51:01):
A lot. I mean, less than some, but a a lot.
Yeah. That's that's great. Ijust did my first live ed course
in in Buenos Aires. Mhmm. Andit's just fantastic. And I work
from home now. I I oversee,actually, six different
laboratories, but threedifferent business units and
(51:24):
which is fine. But I hadforgotten how much fun it was to
be in a a lab and around thestudents, and, oh, it was just
great. Yeah.
Peter O'Toole (51:34):
So would you say Bonus Service is your favorite
place you've been? Or
Virginia Litwin (51:39):
It was pretty nice. It was pretty nice. No. I
and I was supposed to go to usNew Zealand, but I I I didn't
realize they were both so faraway, so I had to postpone New
Zealand. I know I would sayAustralia. I do have a soft spot
in my heart here. Australia.
Peter O'Toole (51:59):
Any particular part?
Virginia Litwin (52:03):
No. Let's see. Where have I been? No. I just
it's just great. And I and weI'm a real my husband and I are
real animal lovers, and we lovewildlife, and it's like, well,
look at these animals. So, yeah,it was great.
Peter O'Toole (52:18):
Yeah. Yeah. Because wildlife, again, is so
different. The bird life thereis quite a lot of endemic. It
it's yeah. Very good for birdingand whale watching.
Virginia Litwin (52:29):
Yes. Yes.
Peter O'Toole (52:31):
Okay. Yeah. What's the birding like?
Actually, I have no I shouldknow this off Claire Brown who's
in Montreal. So she's quite agood birder. What's the bird
life like in Montreal?
Virginia Litwin (52:43):
It's like New England. My husband's from New
England, so it's not different,right, to when you cross the
border. Very nice. Cardinals,blue jays, which are those are
our flashiest birds. They'revery, very pretty. Nice
goldfinches in the summer. Theoccasional, if you're really
(53:05):
sharp, a scarlet tanninger.
Peter O'Toole (53:07):
Yep.
Virginia Litwin (53:08):
Yep. Of course. So your robins, juncos,
chickadees. Yeah.
Peter O'Toole (53:16):
Bizarrely, I think, is the first scarlet
tanager that was actually inMainland UK. It was Twitchable.
So so it actually was was about40 miles away from where I live
recently.
Virginia Litwin (53:26):
Wow. Wow.
Peter O'Toole (53:27):
And I didn't get time to go and see it, but there
you are.
Virginia Litwin (53:31):
There you go. Woodpeckers. Yep.
Peter O'Toole (53:33):
So I think we are probably up to our time as my
watch just beeps. I have to ask,is there any last thought to any
top tips or advice with someonestarting out in their career?
What would you advise them?
Virginia Litwin (53:46):
Yeah. So I I think what like, I I I look at
my career, and I think I justfell into it, or my career found
me. And and I I just think I wasvery lucky, people say, oh, you
did the work. You shouldn't saythat. But it's I was I had good
opportunities, and I had goodmentors. And so I think if
(54:11):
you're you just have to followthe the road. Right? And I and
and I think if you're not somehappy somewhere, just leave. And
and you you will find a good agood mentor. And I I think just
exploring where you know, leanmore and more towards what
you're you're good at and wherewhere you can contribute because
(54:34):
I mean, I never especially, youknow, with being, you know, the
incredible group we have atISAC, I never feel like the
smartest one in the room, but Iknow I'm making a contribution,
and I'll do the work. And so Ithink that's just it. It's just
do what you're good at. Do whatyou enjoy. Right? I mean, I I
wanted to be a ballerina, but Iwas not good at it. So
Peter O'Toole (54:57):
How many hours a day do you work?
Virginia Litwin (54:59):
I don't count. We don't we don't we don't ask
that question.
Peter O'Toole (55:03):
Yeah. I've got a feeling I know the answer.
Virginia Litwin, thank you somuch for joining me today. Thank
you, everyone who's watched orlistened to the podcast. Please
do go you've heard Virginia talkabout Jessica Houston, Johnny
Moore, Paul Wallace, PaulRobinson. We talked about Leah
Whitby, all previous guests, allequally inspirational, all with
(55:23):
their big impacts as well. And,Virginia, you should look back
at yourself at some point andreflect on just how much you've
contributed to the wholecommunity and society in
general. Virginia, thank you forjoining me today.
Virginia Litwin (55:35):
Thank you.
Welcome to Flow Stars, candid conversations
between doctor Peter O'Toole andthe big hitters of flow
cytometry brought to you byBeckman Coulter at Bite Size
Bio.
Peter O'Toole (00:11):
Today, Virginia Litwin, president-elect
president of ISAC, joins me andshe discusses the importance of
diversity in science. Setting upCyTOWomen to advocate for equal
opportunities which has done sowell with in flow cytometry. And
her passion for standardizationto support clinical research.
(00:34):
All this coming up in Flowstars.Hi. I'm Peter O'Toole from the
University of York, and welcometo this edition of Flow Stars.
And today, I'm joined by,Virginia Litwin, who is
president-elect of Isaac. Howare you today, Virginia?
Virginia Litwin (00:57):
I moved to Quebec a few years ago, so,
randomly, I I I just I had tolearn French, and so, randomly,
I will speak French. Sorry.
Peter O'Toole (01:06):
No. That's okay. Actually, ISAC was over Cyto,
rather. So for those who aren'taware, Saito is a big conference
organized by ISAC. It is the bigflow cytometry conference. It
was over there not that longago, wasn't it?
Virginia Litwin (01:21):
Yes. Yes. Two years ago. Completely
independent of of my being here.Oh, no. Last year. Last year.
2023. Yes.
Peter O'Toole (01:28):
Yes. Yeah. Montreal. Montreal. Yeah. Yes.
So, which which was my firsttime to Montreal?
Virginia Litwin (01:35):
Oh, it's lovely, isn't it?
Peter O'Toole (01:37):
It it was really good. It's really friendly,
actually. I find it verywelcoming. Mhmm. Mhmm. Was a
although it wasn't in theirwinter, and I've heard in their
winter, it could be quite cold.
Virginia Litwin (01:49):
Oh, it it's lovely. It's lovely. We have,
about two feet of snow rightnow, and I I I debated about
changing my background here to apicture. I live in the country,
so of my snowy backyard, but I Icouldn't let go of my Saito
women, backdrop, which hopefullyis still showing. Yes?
Peter O'Toole (02:06):
It is absolutely showing. So, actually, so it is
interesting you chose thebackground of Saito women. So
what what for those who aren'taware, what is Cytowomen?
Virginia Litwin (02:16):
Great. Yes. So Cytowomen is a committee within
Cytowomen or ISAC, and, I wasthe first chair. So Johnny
Moore, before she becamepresident of ISAC, she, put
forth this idea to have acommittee to to address the
unique challenges for women andopportunities and biases and
(02:39):
things like that. And so Sightof Women was formed, and she
asked me to be the first chair.And since this is informal, I
will tell you my nephew's anartist, and so I hit him up to
do the logo.
Peter O'Toole (02:52):
So I've never really appreciated the face in
the logo.
Virginia Litwin (02:57):
Yes. It's it's to be the idea was to be more
ethnically ambiguous. And sowhen we formed the first Cyto
women committee, I I picked abroad diversity of women
geographically, ethnically, age,so point in our career, and, it
(03:18):
was really, really fun to tostart.
Peter O'Toole (03:20):
This this might be a difficult question. What
would you say is your most theproudest achievement that Cyto
women has achieved to date?That's a difficult question,
isn't it? I I I would say whileyou're thinking about that then
that play cytometry is one ofthe is probably one of the best
(03:42):
represented male female ratio ofmost of the technologies out in
life sciences. I I certainly inThe UK, you go to them, the
number of female attendees isreally high as a proportion. The
courses that we run at York,actually, unusually, is
predominantly ladies, women thatattend Mhmm. The the the courses
(04:04):
over the men. That that's notbecause women think that it used
to be the other way around, andI've noticed a big change in the
last twenty years. How actuallyflow cytometry is a very welcome
environment, I think, for femaleand other diversities compared
to many others.
Virginia Litwin (04:19):
I think so. I think so. I do have a friend
here, my, local BFF who's a anengineer, and, that is still
predominantly, male and andmaybe less less welcoming,
certainly. Yeah. And when I wasin graduate school, there were,
my class, if you will. So wewere immunology and, virology,
(04:43):
and most of us actually werewomen at that point. So
Peter O'Toole (04:46):
So I've given you a bit of time to think about
maybe the biggest achievement ofcyto women.
Virginia Litwin (04:51):
I I think it was getting it off the ground,
really. And we had at at CYTOtwenty twenty one, I believe it
was our second remote CYTO, wesponsored a viewing of the movie
Picture Scientist. And if youhaven't seen it, I totally
recommend it. And I think it'savailable on Netflix now. So
(05:12):
what we did there is we had topurchase the the access to the
film, and then people could login if you went to the conference
and and view the film. And thenwe had discussion groups
afterwards. We had I don't knowif you remember that conference,
but we had lounges. Right? Like,we called them virtual lounges.
And the discussions in therewere really excellent. And in
(05:35):
that watching the film, I wouldhave said going into it, oh,
I've never experienced, youknow, any, you know, challenges
for being a women a woman in mycareer. And as I watched that, I
was like, oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. And so, it
it just bringing that awareness.And I still have some
(05:55):
colleagues, one friend inparticular who's been a
tremendous mentor to me, andhe's, older than myself, and
just doesn't understand why whywe would have sight of women and
finds it insulting. And I thinkhe's the only person that I've
encountered that has said that,but I think opening up that
(06:16):
dialogue of why we need to lookat the point of view of other
people and and why we need to bediverse. And I think for me,
personally, that is whatSightedwoman has has has brought
to me.
Peter O'Toole (06:31):
And any significant I suppose I suppose
that the individual you'retalking about was one of the
challenges because you're you'rebeing challenged by them for the
for the remit. But do you didyou meet any other obstacles
along the way?
Virginia Litwin (06:47):
I think a little bit being taken
seriously. I mean, you can'ttell on the video, but I'm
small. And so I I think being,you know, taken seriously,
treated as an adult I I I Ihave. Yes. And, you know, of
(07:09):
course, I'm welcome physicaladvances type of thing. Yeah.
And from big to small. Right?From being told you didn't need
to participate in a meeting eventhough you were the subject
matter expert at your company.So and this wasn't this was too
(07:29):
recently to be acceptable, butbeing told you just needed to
sit there and look pretty whenyou were the subject matter
expert. So it's yeah. It'sthere.
Peter O'Toole (07:39):
And that that was in in in an industrial setting,
I presume, commercial setting?
Virginia Litwin (07:44):
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. So yes, and and my
first job out of college, the itwas it was a great lab. I mean,
I've learned so much from thatlab head, but he later told me
that someone else suggested hedidn't hire me as a technician.
He hired three technicians. Andof the three, I'm the one that
(08:07):
remained in science and soscientifically, most successful.
But someone else at theuniversity said, don't hire her.
It's just a pretty distraction.So, yeah, the the things I don't
think about, I I don't butwatching that movie opened my
eyes to that or myrecollections. And what I'm
(08:29):
hoping is that did that forother people as well. It's like,
maybe that is not the correctway to to treat someone. Or
yeah.
Peter O'Toole (08:38):
It's hard to know where to go from that because
that's pretty shocking, isn'tit?
Virginia Litwin (08:42):
Yeah. So
Peter O'Toole (08:44):
I I I and I guess coming from a male background, I
don't get to witness that sidevery often. So Yeah. Anyway, so
it's a very good reason to havesight to women, isn't it?
Virginia Litwin (08:57):
Yes. Yes. And I think also just that that we had
just the whole diversity for forall groups. What what do
different backgrounds bring tothe table? The way of thinking,
what do, what are obstacles thatother people face. So just
having that extra awareness hashas been tremendous. And keeping
(09:21):
with this, I had the privilegeto attend the Australasian
society meeting in twenty twentytwo or three. I'm sorry. And we
had a side of women's session atthat, and we had had some
discussions, and we had apresenter for a Full Stop
(09:42):
Australia, which was addressingsexual harassment. And we had
then a panel discussion on that,and so much came out from the
the panelists and then othereven men in in the audience were
were sharing stories. And itdidn't, you know, it didn't stop
(10:02):
at sexual harassment, just otherobstacles that people faced. And
afterwards, I mean, I was sodrained like I have never been
after a talk. So I think thatawareness is has been a the
success for SITO women. Can we
Peter O'Toole (10:22):
Moving off the cyto women path. You said that
you actually you faced some ofthis in an industrial setting.
So where where have you worked?
Virginia Litwin (10:30):
Okay. I I started out. I I I I knew I
wanted to do biology, and I Iknew I wanted to do human
biology. But beyond that, I Ihad not found my my niche when
I, graduated from university.And I ended up working with a,
(10:51):
an an immunologist, John VanBockel, and he was just a great
teacher. And and and so I I justfell in love with immunology,
and then, we were doingmicroscopy with the I think you
mentioned you had a microscope,fluorescent microscopy. Flow was
still pretty new then. And thenI I ended up getting a job at
(11:14):
UCLA, which was one of theleading, groups in clinical
cytometry, but it was justcytometry in those days.
Peter O'Toole (11:22):
This was was this after your PhD at Iowa?
Virginia Litwin (11:25):
No. Before. Before.
Peter O'Toole (11:26):
Okay.
Virginia Litwin (11:27):
Yeah. So in The US, it's not that unusual to be
a technician and work for a bitbefore going back. I know in
Europe, you you might gostraight through. And so it was
that group. I I was thetechnician for a lot of
postdocs. We were doing flowcytometry. It sounds like
nothing at the time, but thatwas the group that asked the
first question because we'restudying AIDS. What are c d four
(11:49):
levels in human t cells or in inhumans? What are the level of c
d four t cells? And so I andthat group became, like, my
second family and supported methrough graduate school. And
they were, Vy, you should go tograduate school. And so they
sort of pushed me, forward to dothat. And so I've used FLOW my
(12:09):
my whole career, and it's been avariety of virology or
immunology studies.
Peter O'Toole (12:16):
What was your first place cytometer?
Virginia Litwin (12:20):
It was I think it was at at at UCLA, so I I
only stained the samples andbrought them up. And, it's
embarrassing now because, youknow, I'm a leader in slow
standardization and recordkeeping and all of that, but it
actually I I left my samplesand, yes, indeed, on a paper
(12:41):
towel, I had wrote what Istained them with and left it in
the flow lab. And later thatpaper towel came up in a
meeting, and it was like, no.No. This is not acceptable. But
I think I don't know. It was ait was a single laser three
color maybe at at UCLA. Theywere working with Janice Georgie
(13:02):
was, the the lab head there forFlow, and we worked with BD a
lot collaboratively.Collaboratively. So
Peter O'Toole (13:09):
Okay. So probably a would that be a caliber either
at that point?
Virginia Litwin (13:14):
Oh, no. No. No. No. No. Not even a fax four
because I think I I don'tremember. Yeah. Yeah.
Peter O'Toole (13:20):
Wow. Okay. So what's the first cytometry that
you used that
Virginia Litwin (13:24):
you have? Well, again, in graduate school, I I
went to the flow core, and itwas, but when I did my postdoc
with Lucia here at DNx, we had,the bench top model, which was,
I think, the fax four. What wasit called? But we did had a a a
benchtop mount model.
Peter O'Toole (13:45):
Okay.
Virginia Litwin (13:46):
And then I, when I was at Bristol Myers, we
we bought a sorter, and I boughta Vantage. And then later, I
bought a Caliber and then Kanto.So yeah. And I've just bought
four, a five SEs. So it's Yep.The world.
Peter O'Toole (14:07):
That's a fair few. So so you then went on to a
PhD? Mhmm. The wife so whathappened so after your PhD, what
did you do after your PhD? Wasit straight into industry?
Virginia Litwin (14:19):
Oh, no. No. I went to I went to DNx, which I
don't know if you're familiarwith, but it was then a,
research institute owned bySharon Plough, but completely
independent. And DNx is where,Tim Masman and Bob Hopman worked
and t h one, t h two conceptscame out of there. They cloned I
(14:42):
l 10. They cloned GM CSF,identified I l 10. So it was
just a great collaborative placeto do research. We had a
immunology section andmolecular. And and so we were
funded by Sharing Plough, so weweren't having to, do grants,
and it was not at allcompetitive or or cutthroat. And
(15:06):
I I worked, in Lewis andLanier's lab, who will be our,
keynotes, our hook lecture at atCyTO twenty twenty five. And he
was studying NK cells, which isI worked on on NK cells when I
was a technician at UCLA andalso Fc receptors. My graduate
work focused on Fc receptors. Soit was, I did research there,
(15:31):
and it in the Bay Area, it was alot of us went from there into
biotechs more than into,academia. Yep. So that's I went
to a biotech and then to BristolMyers and then to a contract
research organization where Iwas then that's when I quit
(15:53):
using Los Altamji as a researchtool, and it was now, I I got
more focused into the the thetechnology, and I had to learn
standardization and validationof flow cytometry.
Peter O'Toole (16:11):
Which, if I'm honest, it's probably it's gonna
be probably the for me, one ofthe least interesting aspects of
a role is that standardization.And, yeah, I presume you have a
real passion forstandardization.
Virginia Litwin (16:25):
I do, and it is not at all the least
interesting. So, I gave a talkrecently, and and talking about,
you know, how do you do rareevents. I bet you think rare
events are interesting. Right?
Peter O'Toole (16:39):
No. I'm with you. Come on.
Virginia Litwin (16:41):
Okay. So it it's everything you've ever
heard at a cyto meeting goesinto a rare event assay. You
need to start with a fullyoptimized assay, how we should
optimize it today, not how wedid in the last century, where
you are really optimizing yoursignal. You are are going to be
(17:01):
able to, identify dim, eventsand rare events. And then you
need to make sure you have theproper gating and the proper
fluorophores. And, then you needto understand what's the
variation of my assay and andhow low can I how how few of
events can I reproduciblymeasure? And how do I know that
(17:27):
I have only those events in mymy gait and not everything else?
Bad comp, bad doublets, badspread. So no. No.
Standardization is is iseverything put together.
Peter O'Toole (17:40):
And fundamentally, vitally
important, especially with thecontract research agencies that
you're working for.
Virginia Litwin (17:46):
Mhmm.
Peter O'Toole (17:46):
My goodness. They have to be on the ball and and
near perfect.
Virginia Litwin (17:52):
And that's so when I started bring, working at
Bristol Myers, I was doing thephase one clinical trials, and
that was I mean, I think a lotof people thought, oh gosh.
Working at a pharma would be,like, not fun for a scientist.
But it was really excitingbecause we were I was doing the
biomarker assays for the firstin man trials, mostly for
(18:13):
oncology, some, immunologicaldiseases as well. And it was
really exciting to see thepatients respond, what new
target are we hitting, and andhow can I support that with my,
biomarker assay? So
Peter O'Toole (18:28):
So it really is it's very close to frontline,
isn't it? Because you're gettingvery close to direct impact.
Virginia Litwin (18:35):
Yeah. Yes. And then it's it's so for people
that aren't here, it's I latchedon to the idea of, you know,
translational science,translational medicine. So if
you're starting in a researchlab and in fact, the things I
did in my postdoc are now goingin in into therapies. So you
wanna make sure that your datais as robust as possible so that
(18:58):
if someone takes it to that nextphase in translational science,
that it's repeatable, and and itcan move on.
Peter O'Toole (19:10):
So within those roles, you've you're obviously a
big advocate for not being inthe academic world that does a
great role outside the academicroles and the environment. What
would you say the biggestadvantage is being out working
outside of academia?
Virginia Litwin (19:30):
I I I don't I don't know. I mean, with my role
at ISAC, my new role, I I do I'mthe first ISEC president that's
not from academia. So I dointeract with a lot of the,
academics. I don't I don't know.I think probably for me, it's
it's having that impact. So canI have an impact on the program?
(19:56):
Can I can I help our our myclients do a better assay? Can I
help that drug? A lot of peoplesay, over in a CRO, you know,
our our goal is the patient. Andfor me, it's the drug. I I want
that drug to go forward, and Iwant to if it's if it should.
And I wanna support it so thatthe regulatory agencies can make
(20:18):
the right decision about thatdrug, which ultimately will help
people. So for for me, it's it'sthat that impact, but it's it's
not to say you don't have it inacademia. So
Peter O'Toole (20:31):
It it does Cyto actually have a a section or a
meeting for commercial flowcytometrists?
Virginia Litwin (20:41):
We have I think I did my first workshop at Saito
in 2013, and, and I think a lotof people were surprised that,
yes, this is interesting, orpeople in, pharma and and CROs
are are doing interesting work.And so we've had, workshops
(21:01):
almost every every year since.Mhmm. We we do have a flow group
within the American Associationof Pharmaceutical Scientists.
But I think what we're doingwe're well represented at ISAC,
and we the standardization, thevalidation, we're we're bringing
that forward. But it's itdoesn't need to be a separate
(21:25):
group. I
Peter O'Toole (21:27):
it it was just thought so the Royal
Microscopical Society, we don'twe don't have anything to that
side of it, although we got,obviously, industrial people on
the different sections. Mhmm.But there's this, there's a
movement in The UK called Elrig,which
Virginia Litwin (21:40):
Oh, yeah.
Peter O'Toole (21:41):
So so which is not for profit, but it's
commercially orientated forpeople in pharma, biotech Mhmm.
Standards and brings in academiaas well, it sort of hybridized
them, but has a very much focus,on that biopharma side. So I
just didn't know if there'sanything equivalent to the state
to where the site could couldlook at that across across the
pond.
Virginia Litwin (22:03):
Elrig. Yeah. Possibly.
Peter O'Toole (22:07):
It's it's just a thought while we're talking.
Mhmm. On another side. So,actually, I I I obviously, this
is very organic. I did I didhave to I've I've never met you
before in person, so this isamazing. But what I was blown
away by is just how manydifferent, societies that you're
involved with as well. So,obviously, CyTO in a very, Isaac
(22:30):
in a very big way. But also theAPPS, so the American
Association of Pharmaceutical,Scientists, ICCS as well on
there. So you're on the advocacycommittee for that. You're on
the, oh, community section forevery why so many societies?
Why active on so many societies?
Virginia Litwin (22:50):
I think so going back to my first, job in
pharma where our our lab headwas was forward thinking enough
to bring in, my role. And so Iwas doing the cell and molecular
biomarker assays, and he wantedto bring up flow cytometry. And
then, really, he was paralyzedby the, flexibility of the
(23:14):
technology. And that's where notreally in a in a the nicest,
easiest way, but I was sort ofpushed in the deep end of the
pool to learn standardization.And I went to my first ISAC, and
I was complaining. And JoanneLanigan said, Virginia, he's
right. And and ISAC had justwell, there was no clinical
(23:35):
cytometry then. So there thensplit. So there was a big
movement on standardization, andso I don't know. I I guess what
you're saying is I I needed topull when you're doing
biomarkers, you're not clinicaland you're not research. So
you're pulling from both. Andthen friend from UCLA, John
(23:58):
Ferguson, I started a groupwithin, AAPS, the the flow
cytometry group, because wethought, okay. We wanna push the
industry to talk about howshould we validate flow
cytometry methods and how can weuse this technology to support
drug development. And so wepicked the AEPS because we
thought they were more alignedwith the the regulatory agency.
(24:23):
And then at one point, someoneat the FDA told me, no. Just do
a clinical standards, guidancedocument. Just take that
information after you've writtenall those papers, and maybe then
we'll pay attention to you. Sothat's it's sort of I guess, you
know, we're we're chimeric here.We need a little bit of reach.
Peter O'Toole (24:44):
So what's your favorite society?
Virginia Litwin (24:47):
Well, I said no.
Peter O'Toole (24:50):
It's a bit was a loaded question, wasn't it? So
how are you looking forward tobecoming president?
Virginia Litwin (24:58):
I I I think I've settled in the role. At
first, I I was just a little bitit was a little bit too
daunting. You know? We're we'rewe're vocal. We have a lot of,
brilliant people, and, so I wasa little bit overwhelmed. But
now I I think I realized what myskill set is that will be of a
(25:18):
benefit to the society. And so,yeah, I'm I'm I'm really looking
forward to it. And and that isto some of the past presidents
talk to me pretty often and, youknow, really passionate about
keeping the society movingforward in all our diversity.
Right? The engineers, the theprogrammers, the SRL, the
(25:43):
researchers, the the pharmapeople. And so I I just want to
make sure we have a big tent andeveryone benefits and the
society and the technologygrows.
Peter O'Toole (25:57):
So what do see as the biggest challenge for for
Isaac going forward?
Virginia Litwin (26:03):
Well, I I think we we're in a good we're in a
good place now. You know, wewent a few years ago from being
a managed society, and now we'rehave independent management. And
that's been you know, nothing isas straight exponential curve
there. So I think as we continueto grow and bring in new members
(26:26):
and bring in diverse members.Right? So Mhmm. I think that's
our challenge. I think we'll doit for sure, but that that's it.
It's bringing in younger people,getting really good scientific
diversity in our tent.
Peter O'Toole (26:45):
I probably have changed subject completely now.
I heard how you got intoscience. You want to do human
biology with your first degree,which I think was Santa Barbara.
If I take you back to when youwere six, seven, eight, nine,
10, those very early days, canyou remember what the first job
was that you ever wanted to do,what you wanted to be?
Virginia Litwin (27:10):
Probably a ballerina, but I really wasn't
very good. You know?
Peter O'Toole (27:15):
It's a good answer, though. From a
ballerina, was it straight to ascientist? What did you was
there any intermediate stepsyou're thinking, oh, I quite
fancy that job?
Virginia Litwin (27:26):
No. I I think that was it. You know? I have
more talent in this the scienceworld. But and I I think for me
also, it was it was very obviousfor me that's where my aptitude
was. And much as I I loveballet, I wasn't really the
Peter O'Toole (27:44):
Mhmm.
Virginia Litwin (27:45):
The the best. You know? So
Peter O'Toole (27:49):
That's a good answer. And you're still dancing
through your career, soarguably, it's not so far off.
It's just in a different way. Ifyou could do any job for a day
over a week, a day in the lifeof another job, not inside not
not in clinical or academia.What job would you like to,
(28:10):
sample? What would you like totry?
Virginia Litwin (28:13):
I've never thought of that.
Peter O'Toole (28:17):
Have you never looked at someone who's working
and think, oh, I'd love to knowwhat it's like to work alongside
them or to do that job? Or
Virginia Litwin (28:25):
No. I it becomes obvious to me jobs I
couldn't do. Like, I write alot, but, like, journalists have
to I'm fairly good writer, Ithink. But I I mean, I am slow.
Every word is just a pain. It'sa slow birth. And journalists, I
think, gosh. They have to comeup with that on on the spot and
go into war zones and write agood good story off their cell
(28:48):
phone. So I think of jobs Ican't do, but I like to cook. So
maybe I my husband always tellsme I should be opening a little
restaurant, which, again, I'd beterrible at. But I I do come up
with some nice menus for for formy n of one customer here.
Peter O'Toole (29:07):
So so, actually, I I was I was going to to later
on, I'll ask some quick firequestions, but I'm gonna bring
one of those forward now. Iusually ask, what is your
signature dish then?
Virginia Litwin (29:18):
Now that I have one I'm vegetarian, and I've
been vegetarian since, I had myfirst apartment at at
university. So, what I like todo is, put together a a full
menu. So I I just as always,take on too much, and so I'm
just going crazy at the end, butI I I pull it off. So and I'll
(29:40):
tell you this. During COVID, we,of course, couldn't go out to
dinner, And so we startedhaving, dinners at home on the
weekends so I could spend moretime cooking. And, and I I had
to learn French to to getresidency here in Quebec. So
started posting on on Facebookevery week my my menu in French,
(30:02):
and I called it Cafe Corona. SoI I'm I'm had a lot of nice nice
dishes there. It's justvegetarian cooking.
Peter O'Toole (30:12):
And and you published those online, did you
say?
Virginia Litwin (30:14):
On on on Facebook till till we all got
too sick of it. Yeah.
Peter O'Toole (30:19):
And and did your friends and family who looked at
it, they try and get commenting,feeding back?
Virginia Litwin (30:24):
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, for
years, I've posted my somethings. Yeah.
Peter O'Toole (30:29):
But you're posting it in French. Can all
your family do French?
Virginia Litwin (30:33):
The you know, my attitude, no, was, I have to
learn French, and the rest ofthe world is going to suffer
with me. If I feel the need toexpress it in French, I I will.
Don't put me on the spot here,please.
Peter O'Toole (30:46):
Yeah. How have you found learning French?
Virginia Litwin (30:53):
It was it was good. It's it's harder being
somewhere that's bilingual. Andso the Canadians being so nice,
they they hear your accents,imperfect, and so they might
answer you in English, which I Itake is a is huge insult. That
meant I really was doing poorly.So they'd be easier if I was in
France, for sure. Okay. So I Iyou know, this is going out
(31:16):
there. Anyone wants me to do athree month stint, talk at a
French meeting, I'm there.
Peter O'Toole (31:21):
Why why the move to Canada?
Virginia Litwin (31:24):
I came here for a job.
Peter O'Toole (31:26):
Mhmm.
Virginia Litwin (31:27):
And, I had a couple opportunities at at it
was in 2017 I moved, and, youknow, we sort of decided as a
family. I said to my husband, Isaid, well, pick one of these
places. Where do you wanna live?And he said, well, I can't pick.
It's your career. And I said,I'm not gonna give you anything
I wouldn't want to take. So so,yeah, we came up to Montreal.
Peter O'Toole (31:50):
And how is his French coming on?
Virginia Litwin (31:53):
He had more French at in school than I did,
but only one person in thehousehold, had to take the
French exam.
Peter O'Toole (32:02):
So
Virginia Litwin (32:03):
he has been extremely lazy about it. Yes.
Peter O'Toole (32:07):
And and you have a pet cat. Correct?
Virginia Litwin (32:09):
Yes. And Pierre.
Peter O'Toole (32:11):
How's his French?
Virginia Litwin (32:12):
Pierre is completely bilingual. He speaks.
So
Peter O'Toole (32:22):
perfect. That's a bad pun. I sorry for the pun on
the the perfect bit, but thereyou are. Yes. As it works, so
how how have you foundrelocating? Have you found that
cultural change, the the the theit it's quite it's not it's
never it's always a bit out ofcomfort zone moving to a
different city, let alone indifferent countries. So how have
(32:43):
you found all that?
Virginia Litwin (32:44):
Right. Right. We've moved a lot, but, yeah, it
was more challenging here, andhaving to go through immigration
and everything. And, you know,I'm I'm American. I grew up in
The US. So, yeah, being animmigrant was really it it was
it was a lot, but I I finallygot permanent residency. It's a
(33:06):
lot of forms and a lot of moneyand a lot of everything. So I I
had no idea how that was whatthat experience would be like
being an immigrant. But it andand even though there's, you
know, relationships between TheUS and Canada, especially for
certain positions such asbiologists that you're preferred
(33:28):
profession. So I had it easy inthat regard. Still, it it's it
wasn't all that fun. And I hadjust started a new job, and I
had just started the kickoff forCLSI h sixty two. So all of
that, trying to learn French,you know, full time job, writing
(33:48):
a international guidancedocument. There there wasn't a
lot of time for that.
Peter O'Toole (33:55):
Which I guess means you kind of just moved and
didn't worry about it becauseyou had so much going on.
Virginia Litwin (34:00):
I yeah. It's like yeah. You just and and I I
never think through all thedetails. Whereas other people
will really look I've I've askedother people to, you know, take
over committees for me or thisor that, and they're like, how
much work would it be? Willthis? Will that? And it's like,
I I good or bad, I never I neverask myself those questions.
(34:23):
Sure. I'll do it.
Peter O'Toole (34:25):
So you've got the big document done. You've got
all the you've got the presidentpresidency of Isaac. You've been
on the Clinical Lab StandardsInstitute as an expert panel
member. You're actuallyassociate editor for cytometry
part b. Have you ever steppedback and appreciated how much
(34:46):
influence and impact you've hadon the field?
Virginia Litwin (34:50):
Do I step back and think that?
Peter O'Toole (34:52):
Have you ever just stood back and think,
actually, I have actuallycontributed quite significantly.
I've done quite a bit. Have youever actually just taken time to
reflect on your own impacts? Weyou know, you it's it's common
for us to look at others. So I'mlooking at you now thinking, my
god. You have done so much.You've done so and and really
quite important impacts as well,not just with, but actually in
(35:14):
your professional career, notjust in your charitable societal
career. Have you ever taken thattime and step back to appreciate
what you've done?
Virginia Litwin (35:24):
No. I I I don't think I didn't get that gene. It
it would just seem weird andarrogant. I I don't. I mean, I'm
happy when I see the guidancedocument or papers that I've
written referenced by people Idon't know, but I don't know.
(35:45):
Not public.
Peter O'Toole (35:47):
So the Wallace Culture Award that you was it
last year or the year before?
Virginia Litwin (35:51):
Yeah. Last year.
Peter O'Toole (35:52):
Yeah. Recognition of your contributions cytometry
in the field, surely then youmust realize that actually you
have had a you should be proudof what you've done.
Virginia Litwin (36:03):
Well, it it was very nice. And and I'll tell
you, a lot of my people thatwere in my labs, were there and
my mentors Mhmm. When I I I Igave the talk. And it was it was
it was really nice. But, no, I II I could never just sit around
and say,
Peter O'Toole (36:23):
No. I I I I guess you're not a vain person gonna
be doing that, but it must benice to receive that and just
think, oh, actually, gosh. Yeah.Without realizing it, you've
done this, because it's justwhat you do. It it's what your
your passion has been, but it ithelps the community.
Virginia Litwin (36:40):
What it it I think more than that is it's I
feel privileged. Right? So theand when I got the culture
award, it I it was a careerretrospective talk, but I I
talked about my mentors and howthey helped me. And then the
end, it was like, this is whatwe need to do. And and ISAC and
(37:01):
ICCS as well, very focused onmentoring that that next
generation of scientists. Andwith my role at ISAC is I feel
privileged to to be in the room,to be talking with people like
you, working with JessicaHouston, Johnny Moore, all the
Pauls, Robinson, Wallace, Smith.So I I yes. It it is a
(37:27):
privilege, and I I I am reallygrateful. Yeah.
Peter O'Toole (37:32):
So I I who you you mentioned your mentors. Who
have been your biggestinspirations?
Virginia Litwin (37:41):
They when I started at at UCLA as a as a as
a as a technician, there were alot of women. Right? And they,
some are still my friends. AndJanice Georgie, there's now a
she passed away from uterinecancer, and she there's now a
young investigator award at ICCSfor Janice. And so I they have
(38:05):
really been, a lot of thosepeople, my mentors, but I
mentioned them in the the theculture, talk. But Susan Plager
was a a a new postdoc at, UCLA,and I was her technician. And
she was now we call it,sponsorship, but she recommended
me from my first anythingcommittee and and continued to
(38:29):
support me. She helped me withthe, qualifying exams in
graduate school. She put me onmy first NIH grant, my first
editor role. And it's I, youknow, I don't know why. And and
and Johnny Moore was also veryinstrumental in recommending me
for things. And I think withoutthem, I I I just had these great
(38:54):
opportunities to to do thesethings. And I yes. And those
are, I don't know, inspirations,but they were just so enablers
for me. Mhmm.
Peter O'Toole (39:06):
So that that makes just thinking about it,
helping your mentors, yourinspirations, and how they're
stepping you up. Some of thatwould have been delegation. And
how do you how how would you sayyou manage delegation? Are you a
good delegator?
Virginia Litwin (39:20):
Terrible. Terrible. And I I still, you
know, have to muster up, youknow, some courage and, you
know, to ask someone to to to dothings. You know? So, yeah, that
is not something I I I I amgreat at. You know? So so
(39:43):
probably I I spend more timedoing things I I shouldn't be
doing and yeah. But
Peter O'Toole (39:49):
Okay. So some quick fire questions.
Virginia Litwin (39:51):
Okay. Quick fire.
Peter O'Toole (39:54):
Quick fire. So here we are. Are you an early
bird or night owl?
Virginia Litwin (39:58):
Early.
Peter O'Toole (39:59):
Early bird? PC or Mac?
Virginia Litwin (40:03):
Oh, Mac.
Peter O'Toole (40:05):
Mac. McDonald's or Burger King?
Virginia Litwin (40:09):
Neither. I'm vegetarian.
Peter O'Toole (40:10):
Yeah. If I say that's not gonna help, is it?
Virginia Litwin (40:12):
Although my first paying job was McDonald's.
Peter O'Toole (40:14):
Okay. Okay. What's your favorite takeaway
food or your favorite fast food?
Virginia Litwin (40:21):
Starbucks coffee, almond milk.
Peter O'Toole (40:24):
My son works at Starbucks. That's good.
Chocolate or cheese?
Virginia Litwin (40:28):
Oh gosh. Chocolate. Although cheese and
port is good too.
Peter O'Toole (40:37):
Did I say coffee or tea?
Virginia Litwin (40:40):
Nope. Coffee.
Peter O'Toole (40:42):
Coffee. So chocolate, coffee go well
together, beer or wine?
Virginia Litwin (40:46):
Wine. I'm from California. White or red? Was
that it? Yep. Oh, well, I bettersay red if Paul Robinson is
listening, but I like them both.Yep.
Peter O'Toole (40:59):
Okay.
Virginia Litwin (41:00):
He'll divorce me if I if I say red or white.
So
Peter O'Toole (41:05):
What is your ultimate favorite food?
Virginia Litwin (41:13):
Ultimate favorite food. I think on
Sundays, we go well, we used tohave the paper. Now we don't.
But we would go for a specialcoffee and and a a pastry
somewhere. So I would say rightnow, it's it's a a superb almond
croissant, but maybe not not anordinary. And we have some great
bakeries here in Beaumont. Yeah.So Yep.
Peter O'Toole (41:35):
Whilst it's warm or cold?
Virginia Litwin (41:39):
Either. That's fine. Okay.
Peter O'Toole (41:41):
What is your food nightmare other than meat? Any
style of food or things
Virginia Litwin (41:51):
Too spicy. Too spicy. I can I am a wimp for
spices, so I can handle a tinybit? You know?
Peter O'Toole (41:57):
Do you prefer to cook or clean?
Virginia Litwin (42:00):
Oh, I love them both. I love cleaning. It's the
OCD, which is great. You know, Ihave a virology background, so
it's it's perfect.
Peter O'Toole (42:07):
After cooking? You wanna clean up after
cooking?
Virginia Litwin (42:11):
Yes. Yes.
Peter O'Toole (42:13):
Oh, your husband's very lucky.
Virginia Litwin (42:15):
Well, there's so many reasons.
Peter O'Toole (42:19):
TV or book? Book. What are you reading at the
moment? What's your favoritegenre?
Virginia Litwin (42:29):
I I it does just some good writing. Not
scary. I've done a lot ofbiographies. I just love, David
McClellan. Yeah. Not not trashy,fluffy, but, you know, good good
writing.
Peter O'Toole (42:49):
Okay. Favorite film?
Virginia Litwin (42:55):
Favorite film. I don't know if I have a
favorite, but I I I do like agood movie. Just just just
haphazardly, we watched re on onNetflix recently, Bridget Jones
Diary. I was laughing from theget go. From the credits, it was
(43:16):
funny. So I think a a goodclever movie.
Peter O'Toole (43:19):
Okay. Star Wars or Star Trek?
Virginia Litwin (43:22):
Neither.
Peter O'Toole (43:25):
And favorite color?
Virginia Litwin (43:28):
Brilliant violet. Oh, there's
Peter O'Toole (43:32):
so few guests ever come out with something
like brilliant violet orfluorescein or phycobacterium.
Let's go blue or green oryellow. It's like, come on. Well
done. Proper flow cytometrist atlast. You passed the test. Yeah.
What's your favorite music? Whatdo you like listening to?
Virginia Litwin (43:53):
I like I like rock. My husband's a bit of a
rock historian, I would say. Somy my rock, and I am the
youngest of a large family, so Ithink my music tastes are above
my age. But, yeah, I think allof the early, really good rock.
Peter O'Toole (44:12):
Okay.
Virginia Litwin (44:12):
A lot of the woman singers, Joni Mitchell,
Emmylou Harris, MelindaBrownstead, all of them. Okay.
Peter O'Toole (44:23):
So that that's good to chill out too. Do you
have any hobbies? So when you ifyou've had a stressful day at
work or in your life, what sortof hobbies do you do to chill
out?
Virginia Litwin (44:34):
Well, I pet Pierre, and I I I I put my head
on his his little chest andlisten to him purr, and it is,
better than heroin, althoughI've never really tried heroin.
But that's that's very good. I'ma runner. So, yep, I I put some
music on on, my Sirius radio onon my, iPhone, and I break
(44:58):
running here, lots of trails.
Peter O'Toole (45:00):
What's your distance?
Virginia Litwin (45:02):
An hour. Ten? Ten. Yep. Yep. I'm I'm not fast,
but I I don't remember.
Peter O'Toole (45:09):
I should I should convert that for the Americans,
shouldn't I? Six miles?
Virginia Litwin (45:13):
Yeah. Yeah. Not terribly fast, but I'm just
going for, sanity and fun.
Peter O'Toole (45:20):
Did do do any events?
Virginia Litwin (45:23):
I do. I did I did one recently. My my local
BFF, the engineer, is she usedto do marathons, and, so she in
such great company, she suffersthrough my slow, shorter runs.
And we did a a 10 k a while ago,and I wanna do one this year as
well.
Peter O'Toole (45:41):
But she hasn't persuaded you to do a marathon
yet with her?
Virginia Litwin (45:44):
Oh, no. She wanted me to do a half marathon
with her, and I I wouldn't. So Ijust I'm fine with I'm you know,
my feet are happy. My knees arehappy. Yeah.
Peter O'Toole (45:59):
Yeah. It was yeah. So once you've done the
half marathon, you know you'rehalfway to a marathon, then you
have to do the marathon. Somaybe you better not do in the
half because then you're not
Virginia Litwin (46:07):
Well, I get enough goals. Right? I'm doing
another CLSI document, CyTO2025, blah blah blah. Yeah.
Okay.
Peter O'Toole (46:18):
So outside of those hobbies, what would you
say has been the mostchallenging time of your career
where you probably had to leanon those more often?
Virginia Litwin (46:31):
I I'm not I don't wanna share that.
Peter O'Toole (46:34):
That's cool with me. So I'm gonna I'm gonna flick
it around and say, what's beenthe best time of your career? If
you could ever live a a an era,a a a year, or a moment in your
career, what moment would you goback and relive?
Virginia Litwin (46:49):
It it's it's right now. I mean, last year was
the even I did the ISECpresidency and and before they
had the special election, BobRobinson had approached me about
that. And I'm like, Paul, it's ayear off. Like, you know? And
and that took a long time to toto think about, could I do it?
(47:12):
Would I want to? And then longerto, you know, run it by my
husband. What would you think?And then shortly after that, the
the Coulter award came up, and Ihad been nominated before. And,
you know, no one walks aroundthinking, oh, I hope one day
I'll get the culture award. Butwhen you don't get it, you're
like, because people tell you,oh, I nominated you, and you're
(47:33):
like, yeah. I wish you hadn'tshared. But so that was it was
just really special. And andright now, I I just it's with my
role at ISAC and and with thethe conference, it's like, okay.
What can I do to shape somethingmeaningful to really make a
contribution to the society andall? And a lot of my people that
I've mentored or have been in mylab are doing great, and I'm so
(47:57):
proud. And, you know, they giveyou a drop of credit when it's
it's so I would say right now,it's it's just nice.
Peter O'Toole (48:05):
Okay. And do you have any future predictions of
where we should be going, flowcytometry wise?
Virginia Litwin (48:13):
Yes. We we need to be quantitative. Absolutely.
We need to be we need to be yes.I'm working on that now. We we
need the industry behind us sothat the software will work when
we quantitate our data, and andthen our variability between
everything will diminish, andand we we can can move forward,
(48:37):
and we can use those data inthat whole translational space.
Peter O'Toole (48:44):
With all the so so flick it flick it, in a
different direction again. Withall the different
standardization and standards,do you do much with Nekwaas?
Virginia Litwin (48:54):
I did when I was at at at clinical cytometry.
Mhmm. Because it's very theequivalent in The US would be,
College of AmericanPathologists. And I know they're
and not what I'm doing now somuch, but, yes, when, I was more
involved with ICCS clinicalcytometry. I
Peter O'Toole (49:16):
I only asked some good friends who Liam Whitby.
Virginia Litwin (49:19):
Yes. I know Liam.
Peter O'Toole (49:20):
Ah, okay.
Virginia Litwin (49:21):
That was David David Barnett was, a contributor
to the the, guidance document aswell. He's he's on that. Mhmm.
Peter O'Toole (49:30):
Because I think I think Liam took over from Dave
Denti when it came to Neecraft,as president and CEO. Actually,
he has actually been I think hewas on the first series of this
of Flow Stars.
Virginia Litwin (49:39):
Oh, well. Yes.
Peter O'Toole (49:40):
Really? Well, on go. To go watch. Although, I
would say we did it in anevening or at dusk, and he got
darker and darker and darker.So, actually, if you listen to
it, it's fine. If you watch it,he's you might as well just
listen to it because at the end,he goes very dark. He's also a
runner, isn't he? Though he alsohas that in common, that he's
(50:01):
Yes. Yes. Passionate aboutstandards. So passionate. So,
again, similar to yourself. Sopassionate about standards and
the environment and supporting.It's so, yeah, I I guess a UK
equivalent almost to yourself inmany ways.
Virginia Litwin (50:16):
And they've done a lot of really good papers
and really good work on saying,okay. We put out this standard.
How does it really work? Let'sdo a inter laboratory study on.
Peter O'Toole (50:28):
Because I I've had Dave in York, but Liam as
well and others from the classand standards. We run the RMS
flow cytometry course, which hasa whole clinical session. So
Mhmm. For three days ofclinical. So there's a lot of
content around that withdifferent tutors coming in, of
which Liam it's always good tosee Liam. He's all ah, he also
(50:51):
likes coffee like yourself andchocolate. A lot of
similarities. Good chances. Howmuch, throughout your different
throughout your career, how muchhave you managed to travel?
Virginia Litwin (51:01):
A lot. I mean, less than some, but a a lot.
Yeah. That's that's great. Ijust did my first live ed course
in in Buenos Aires. Mhmm. Andit's just fantastic. And I work
from home now. I I oversee,actually, six different
laboratories, but threedifferent business units and
(51:24):
which is fine. But I hadforgotten how much fun it was to
be in a a lab and around thestudents, and, oh, it was just
great. Yeah.
Peter O'Toole (51:34):
So would you say Bonus Service is your favorite
place you've been? Or
Virginia Litwin (51:39):
It was pretty nice. It was pretty nice. No. I
and I was supposed to go to usNew Zealand, but I I I didn't
realize they were both so faraway, so I had to postpone New
Zealand. I know I would sayAustralia. I do have a soft spot
in my heart here. Australia.
Peter O'Toole (51:59):
Any particular part?
Virginia Litwin (52:03):
No. Let's see. Where have I been? No. I just
it's just great. And I and weI'm a real my husband and I are
real animal lovers, and we lovewildlife, and it's like, well,
look at these animals. So, yeah,it was great.
Peter O'Toole (52:18):
Yeah. Yeah. Because wildlife, again, is so
different. The bird life thereis quite a lot of endemic. It
it's yeah. Very good for birdingand whale watching.
Virginia Litwin (52:29):
Yes. Yes.
Peter O'Toole (52:31):
Okay. Yeah. What's the birding like?
Actually, I have no I shouldknow this off Claire Brown who's
in Montreal. So she's quite agood birder. What's the bird
life like in Montreal?
Virginia Litwin (52:43):
It's like New England. My husband's from New
England, so it's not different,right, to when you cross the
border. Very nice. Cardinals,blue jays, which are those are
our flashiest birds. They'revery, very pretty. Nice
goldfinches in the summer. Theoccasional, if you're really
(53:05):
sharp, a scarlet tanninger.
Peter O'Toole (53:07):
Yep.
Virginia Litwin (53:08):
Yep. Of course. So your robins, juncos,
chickadees. Yeah.
Peter O'Toole (53:16):
Bizarrely, I think, is the first scarlet
tanager that was actually inMainland UK. It was Twitchable.
So so it actually was was about40 miles away from where I live
recently.
Virginia Litwin (53:26):
Wow. Wow.
Peter O'Toole (53:27):
And I didn't get time to go and see it, but there
you are.
Virginia Litwin (53:31):
There you go. Woodpeckers. Yep.
Peter O'Toole (53:33):
So I think we are probably up to our time as my
watch just beeps. I have to ask,is there any last thought to any
top tips or advice with someonestarting out in their career?
What would you advise them?
Virginia Litwin (53:46):
Yeah. So I I think what like, I I I look at
my career, and I think I justfell into it, or my career found
me. And and I I just think I wasvery lucky, people say, oh, you
did the work. You shouldn't saythat. But it's I was I had good
opportunities, and I had goodmentors. And so I think if
(54:11):
you're you just have to followthe the road. Right? And I and
and I think if you're not somehappy somewhere, just leave. And
and you you will find a good agood mentor. And I I think just
exploring where you know, leanmore and more towards what
you're you're good at and wherewhere you can contribute because
(54:34):
I mean, I never especially, youknow, with being, you know, the
incredible group we have atISAC, I never feel like the
smartest one in the room, but Iknow I'm making a contribution,
and I'll do the work. And so Ithink that's just it. It's just
do what you're good at. Do whatyou enjoy. Right? I mean, I I
wanted to be a ballerina, but Iwas not good at it. So
Peter O'Toole (54:57):
How many hours a day do you work?
Virginia Litwin (54:59):
I don't count. We don't we don't we don't ask
that question.
Peter O'Toole (55:03):
Yeah. I've got a feeling I know the answer.
Virginia Litwin, thank you somuch for joining me today. Thank
you, everyone who's watched orlistened to the podcast. Please
do go you've heard Virginia talkabout Jessica Houston, Johnny
Moore, Paul Wallace, PaulRobinson. We talked about Leah
Whitby, all previous guests, allequally inspirational, all with
(55:23):
their big impacts as well. And,Virginia, you should look back
at yourself at some point andreflect on just how much you've
contributed to the wholecommunity and society in
general. Virginia, thank you forjoining me today.
Virginia Litwin (55:35):
Thank you.
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