March 5, 2024 • 42 mins
In this special episode for Women in Construction Week 2024, FMI Consulting President Scott Winstead and Mary Teichert discuss how to identify and demolish barriers to attract more women to the construction industry. They also talk about company values and ways leaders can support women to create a sense of belonging in the workplace.
Mary boasts an impressive resume including graduating from Harvard, holding positions on various industry boards, facilitating workshops to help women and minorities become licensed contractors, and serving as the President of Teichert Inc., which holds one of the oldest construction licenses in California and now comprises a diverse mix of businesses including Teichert Construction and Teichert Materials.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Hello and welcome. My name is Scott Winstead, president of FMI Consulting. I'm really excited
(00:08):
to share my conversation with Mary Tichert with you. Mary is the president of Tichert,
a fifth generation industry leading family business in the heavy civil construction
and construction material space. Tichert was founded in 1887 and is the owner of the 8th
California Contractors License. Mary received both her undergraduate degree and her MBA
(00:29):
from Harvard University. She is a former director of product strategy for one of
Apple's divisions and a former management consultant with Bain and Company. In addition
to her day job with Tichert, she's held a number of prominent leadership roles within
the engineering and construction industry. She is the immediate past president of the
Beavers, a heavy engineering and construction association that includes the who's who in
(00:51):
the heavy civil space. Mary is the first ever woman to serve in this role. She has served
as chair of the California State License Board as a senior fellow with the American Leadership
Forum and as a board member for the California Building Industry Association and the AGC.
In our conversation, we touch on a number of topics, but really zoom in on ways to attract
(01:11):
and retain women in construction operations roles. Well, Mary, good morning. Thank you
for being here and welcome to the show. Good morning. It's a privilege. Well, I'd love
to just start off with just a quick thumbnail of Tichert. So Tichert was founded in 1887
by my great-great-grandfather, who was a foreman for the guy who invented expansion joints.
(01:32):
So Adolf had been working for him as a foreman and then hung out his shingle when the state
capital was built in California. So decided he knew how to do this stuff and built the
sidewalks around the state capital. We ultimately got state contractors license number eight.
We've been in business in California for about 137 years now. So I've sometimes pointed
(01:52):
out that we talk a lot about Adolf, but also his wife, Carrie, was part of the program
and she did the books at the kitchen table while he rode around in the carriage and checked
on jobs. So pretty exciting that nowadays we can ride around in the carriage and check
on jobs. But Tichert has been in the infrastructure business ever since. And so we started with
those sidewalks I was mentioning. We've always built the infrastructure that California needs.
(02:14):
And so we went from there to building roads. We had state highway contract number three.
Back when the state thought all we would have to do for these hoarseless carriages was to
connect all the county seats. So we started building roads and then went on when states
started flooding, we started building levees. And then in the World War II, we started doing
airfields. And then when the soldiers started coming home from war, we built subdivisions.
(02:36):
So ever since about the 1950s, we've been heavily involved in subdivision infrastructure.
It's probably about a third of our business. And then we have another third that's interesting
site work. So we build a lot of schools and back in the old days, we used to build malls,
not much of those for a while, but warehouses and big site projects. And then we also have
a significant amount of public work we do. So we've always done those roads and streets
(02:58):
and levees and dams and that kind of good stuff. We added materials in the 1930s. And
so we also have two of the 10 largest sanding gravel plants in the country, about 22 rock
plants. And so we do construction materials as well. And then around 2015, we started
doing energy infrastructure. And so going back to the point of what does the state need?
And increasingly, what do the Western US states need? We do gas distribution as well as power
(03:22):
distribution for electrical. So a lot of different kinds of energy and utility work at this point.
So the common theme is infrastructure. And the company is about three times bigger than
it was when I became Chief Operating Officer in 2013. And we're doing more and more kinds
of infrastructure because there's more and more to do.
Wow. We could have an entire conversation about that history. So fascinating. It's funny.
(03:43):
You mentioned the 137 years in business. I mean, that's the definition of rarefied air.
And in one of our previous podcast episodes, we talked with the CEO that was in the process
of transitioning from his, he founded the business to his second generation. And we
talked about the concept of enduring organizations. And I think we've got a perfect example of
(04:05):
what that looks like when you go five generations. There aren't many firms of any type that
can say that.
Well, you know, it's interesting. We've actually been in the midst of for the first time documenting
our sustainability program. And one of the things that consultant who's writing the report
said is that there's only two companies they've talked to that are as top to bottom committed
to all their values as we are. And she said, the other one's over 100 years also. And it
(04:26):
made me sort of think, I wonder to what degree the fact that we've changed the work we do
a lot, but we've always had a very common value set of building trust and tradition,
doing things right. That's lasted us a long time and people that want to work that way
want to work here. So it could be as simple as that or as complicated as that. My grandfather's
direction in the 1950s was that we're going to operate within the law. And if we can make
(04:47):
a profit. And it's funny because hopefully the law is table stakes nowadays, but in the
1950s, you think about here's what we're going to do is do stuff right. So I think we've
been fortunate to attract some fantastic people, which is the reason we've been here so long.
He kind of touched on the question I wanted to get to is just the company's evolution
and what is it the, I guess if there's a through line on how you would trace back all the success
(05:09):
over the years and it sounds like just the concept of core values and remaining consistent
in those over time.
So Ticard is a regional contractor and one of the benefits is that we've a significant
concentration of work in the Western US. And so people, most of our people sleep at home
most nights. And we have the super strong value set of, as I mentioned, doing things
(05:30):
right. So folks that want to build things, generate trust with their customers and their
employees and follow the traditions that we have, as well as come up with some continuous
improvement on occasion, tend to also be people who like their families and they like sleeping
at home most nights and they may want to coach their kids little league team and they might
want to go home and see their kid during the day. So our business lends itself to that
(05:50):
and attracts the people that share our values. So I think it's kind of been synergistic over
time that the values that we have has people that like to be in our region and then we
get to keep moving that way. So I think that's one of my centerpiece ideas at this point.
You know, I give my ancestors some credit for all of the strategic decisions such as
buying materials at good points in our history. So having significant presence in materials
(06:11):
as well as construction, I think has helped us stay steady throughout all these years
because materials in California is a lot more concentrated of an industry than construction
because unfortunately, sometimes in construction, we're competing with any Joe potatoes who
can get a license and a bond, but materials has I think our most recent rock plant that
we built from scratch took us 17 years to permit. So California is a non trivial place
(06:34):
to do aggregate production. So having both of those things going means that we have some
portfolio that's always sustaining us. So I think some smart business decisions and
some values that attract the people that we most appreciate. And then they stay here for
their whole careers. We have all these people that have been here 20 30 40 years kind of
combined stem make our make us stick around a while. So yeah, part of my job is don't
(06:55):
screw up.
That's easy to say hard to do. I am curious, are the other seven contractors that had licenses
one through seven, are they still around?
No, we're the oldest active license in the state. And it's funny because they didn't
start issuing licenses here until I think it was the late 1920s or early 1930s. We'd
already been in business for almost 40 years when they started issuing licenses. So I sometimes
(07:20):
wonder if my great grandfather had gotten up earlier, could we've got license number
one, like, was he just eight in line? But it is pretty, it's a significant thing. There's
only about I think there's three contractors with licenses lower than 100. So it's a pretty
great honor to have been here this long.
It's awesome. You talked about people and the value of having those folks be able to
(07:41):
stay at home, see little kids and go to baseball games and whatnot. Continuing on that theme
as it relates to people, you know, one of the things that's sort of been tortured over
the last several years is just the industry's talent shortage. I mean, it's become a bit
of a cliche to say that there is a talent shortage in the construction industry. We've
started to call it just a characteristic of the industry because it's not a trend. I mean,
(08:02):
you can go back, look at ENR and trade red covers over the last 50 or 60 years and it's
always been a thing. So I'm curious about how you think about this from an industry
perspective.
Well, there are several dimensions to the talent shortage that we're focused on. One
is that we're certainly faced with an aging workforce. And so if you look at sort of
the number of workers that are over 55 in our industry and see that in the course of
(08:27):
the, let's see, I think it's in the course of the last 10 years, it's about doubled.
So over 55 used to be around 11.5% and it's now almost 23%. So you look at there's a lot
of folks who have a lot of expertise who are getting closer to the end of their careers.
So we need to find more people coming into it that have the willingness and ability and
creativity to take their places. We have some significant issues with diversity. And so
(08:52):
Ticard's not really unique in the fact that in California, we have an outstanding component
of a Hispanic workforce, but we're super underrepresented on other demographics. And so
there's a lot of communities that aren't selecting construction. And then we want them to choose
our industry and certainly choose our company.
And then the one that I've spent a ton of time on because it almost seems like low hanging
fruit and also because there's no one in a better position to do it than me is that we
(09:15):
also don't have a lot of women. So nationally, there's about 11% women in construction and
in operations, it's about 6%. So it's just, if you think about the fact that women represent
about half the population, that's a big gap. And so there's a lot of people not choosing
it.
So when you look at why is that and what are some ways that we can start attracting additional
(09:36):
talent if we tap into some of these categories. Part of it is making our company an attractive
place to work. And part of it is trying to figure out how do we identify and demolish
the barriers that are keeping people from wanting to choose it because it's pretty statistically
significant how different those numbers are.
I'd love to kind of go a little bit deeper on the concept of barriers, you know, in your
(09:56):
role both inside the company as well as in the broader industry. What do you see as some
of those common barriers that could be low hanging fruit?
One of the barriers is having women actually feel like they belong here. There's an observation
someone made, what a difference there is between feeling welcome and feeling like you belong.
So welcome would be that you're a guest in my house and you're welcome. And belonging
(10:18):
would be you live here. So trying to have women feel like they belong is a big deal
in this industry. And there's one of the centerpiece challenges is that there's some dimension
of critical mass that is hard to come up with. And so if you're the only woman on a crew
or you're the only woman on a team, then you pretty much all the time are inventing for
yourself. How is it that I sit in here and what am I supposed to be doing? And if you're
(10:41):
actually got some company or some models or some people to share your experiences with
it becomes a less isolated experience. So just the simple fact of how comfortable do
you feel at work? And does this feel like a place that you should be? I think has something
to do with finding ways to have numbers come together.
So at Ticard I started a women in operations group about 10 years ago for the simple fact
(11:01):
that I looked around and we didn't really have very many because I had started out feeling
like I was raised thinking that women can do anything men can do. My dad was super encouraging
that way. So I never had thought of it as my topic or my issue, but simply looking and
saying, oh, there aren't any. And what are we going to do about that? And so I gathered
up the women that we did have and asked them that same question is what are some things
that we can do to overcome the issues that we have here. One of the centerpiece items
(11:25):
was mentoring. And so the two things that we decided to spend time on were mentoring
and outreach. The whole time we've been in existence as a group, we've kind of underlined
that the main point is to do a good job of our day jobs. And so all of us have to be
good at what we do for a living. And so with that being the table stakes, if we have extra
time, what do we want to spend it on? Highlighted that recruiting and mentoring were both worth
our while. So mentoring is interesting. I think there's sometimes been a feeling maybe
(11:50):
amongst people and certainly amongst generations in our industry that like women can mentor
each other and we can pull ourselves along by our own bootstraps. And I think there are
outstanding women and we have to keep forming a community. But it's also true that fabulous
men are a significant piece of our mentoring program. So we started one to sort of say,
let's find people who can help you develop in your career. And many of those people are
(12:12):
meant just because to point A, there's not as many women leaders and we need to have
leaders mentoring people that want to come along. So mentorship is one of the ones that
I'm not going to say it's easy to do, but it's super important to do. A related piece
is thinking about what is the community that we can build among the women who are here
so that they feel not isolated going to that point of feeling like you belong. And so for
(12:34):
instance, in our case, we have a couple of things. One is a quarterly meeting for women
in operations. For instance, we're getting together for lunch for Women in Construction
Week and we'll have some talks and introduce the new women that have joined us since last
time and talk about that. We do volunteer projects together. There's a thing called
Women Build where we're going to go build Habitat for Humanity House sometime this month
(12:54):
since it's the women's month. And so do a few things like that where we build community
among the women that are here. And part of it is being intentional on job assignments.
It's interesting how we're similar to other construction companies in that we have about
1% women on cruise. So not very many women are on cruise. It might be growing. California
Department of Industrial Relations says that there's about 4% women in apprentice programs
(13:18):
and so we might be getting more. But both of those numbers are truly pathetic. So if
you look at the numbers that we have on cruise, three of the women that we have are on the
same crew. And that's pretty interesting. So it turns out there's two sisters and a
cousin and so they joined up partly because they felt comfortable. They're like, okay,
this is an okay place. I can talk about the things that I'm seeing as challenges and share
(13:38):
my experiences and feel like I'm going to be treated well. I like to say that there's
more and more awareness even in construction field operations, which isn't historically
identical to like a retailer banking environment. There's more and more awareness of kind of
treating women respectfully and all the things that that means. I think we've overcome all
the basic hurdles, but there's still little things that are hard for people who aren't
(14:00):
paying attention. But if you've got three women on a crew, that's probably not going
to be a thing. And so trying to figure out how do we do staffing and assignments so that
women have colleagues as well as resources to continue exploring their own experiences
and figuring out what are the things that are going to be barriers for them and is it
for everybody else or just for them? Is it the all? There was a woman early in my management
(14:21):
career who had reached out for a mentor and she worked in a different part of the state.
So I traveled down to meet her for breakfast and her she was a project engineer and had
wanted to talk about the fact that she felt like the foreman wasn't doing what she said
or following her direction because of her gender. And I said, well, actually, it's probably
because you're 22 and he thinks he knows more than you and he probably does. And if you
(14:42):
talk to the other men that are your same class, I bet they have the exact same experience.
And it was just a relief for her because that's the thing is you don't know if your experiences
are normal or not. So saying, no, that's actually normal for a brand new PE not to have total
direction of the foreman you might want to consider. So I think just having being able
to compare notes going to your point on what's the low hanging fruit is important. And the
(15:03):
other thing companies can do is to think about what are ways that we can create community
and allow for things or that make women feel more comfortable being part of things. So
I've done some allyship conversations both at work and in some industry settings to talk
about all the little things that comprise that. So for instance, literally making room
at the table. So if you've got a meeting and it doesn't have enough chairs, making sure
(15:26):
the women actually have an somewhere to sit so you don't walk into a room and find that
you have to be standing or going to find your own seat. Or if you're standing in the hallway
talking and there's a clump of people kind of opening the circle for a woman to join
in. So there's some little things like that which are just basic physical gestures that
indicate I'm expecting you and you're a normal part of this group. And that just it's a really
(15:49):
interesting how far that kind of thing goes to make women feel like they belong. There's
asking opinions. And so it's one of those things where I hesitate to say that this is
all about women because there's also factors like seniority and other topics. But there's
a lot of women who don't necessarily speak up right away or maybe volunteer their opinions
as readily as some of their male counterparts. And so just listening and making sure that
(16:10):
you've asked people's opinions in the room who may not have shared them or called on
folks, that sort of thing, I think increases the amount of participation that women have
in the workplace and the way that folks feel comfortable being part of meetings and part
of conversations that are super important for how this all works.
You covered a whole lot and there's a lot to unpack there. I love the image of the you're
(16:31):
a guest in this home versus this is your home that really brings it into focus as to what
she wants folks to feel like. You talked about allyship and one of Type III's initiatives
around mentorship which started some time ago. I know when we spoke before, Mary, we
talked about the difference between mentorship and sponsorship. And I was wondering if you
could say more about that from your perspective.
(16:53):
Sure. So I'd say mentorship, which many of us have kind of been part of maybe our whole
careers is someone who would be a regular part of your career and give you advice on how
you proceed and suggestions on your own ambitions and your own challenges and how you overcome
them. There's formal programs like the one we've tried to set up and then informal relationships
that people form at work, where it's someone you can go to for advice that helps you navigate
(17:17):
your own career. And that's super important. And I think the informal ones are vital and
frankly, if everyone could form informal mentorships with people that they really resonate with,
I think that would be ideal. In our case, we match people up to try to foster and facilitate
that. Sponsorship is a little different. And sponsorship, I kind of picture as talking
about people in a good way behind closed doors. So it's saying that here's someone that I
(17:40):
feel like deserves the next opportunity or here's someone that I'm going to advance and
suggest for promotions and advancement and maybe new job assignments. So and it doesn't
even, it doesn't have as much of a time component like mentoring has a ton to do with directly
developing a person. And sponsorship has a little bit, and obviously someone could do
both these things, but sponsorship is advocacy and saying that here is a top notch candidate
(18:04):
for this next thing. So one of the things that I think about sometimes is, you know,
we have a few women that are outstanding contributors that are in part time capacities
because they're also taking care of their kids. And so for me, part of it is the folks
who are their sponsors also are always highlighting their contribution and their ability to take
on the next assignment. So if a job comes up and someone kind of probably unconsciously
(18:29):
dismisses them because they're part time, the folks who are really advocating for them
and saying they're super capable, they're going to make it work. This is something that
we should give that person an opportunity to do. That's an example of sponsorship, where
you're actually saying I'm looking out for that person. So the thing that's really cool
about it, well, two things. One is the fact of noticing someone's capabilities. Because
(18:49):
I think one of the historical challenges probably for all of us as human beings is that we may
be support or notice the contributions of people who are more like us. So it may be easier
to see someone's contributions that you can recognize as your own. So having people in
often this is meant just because going back to the demographics of our business, be able
to say, Hey, this woman's contributing in a huge way. And I think we should give her
(19:12):
this next assignment is really cool sponsorship and sometimes take some conscious effort going
to that point of it may not be a person that looks like you or in the case of part time,
it may not be a person whose contributions look exactly like they have throughout the
history of the industry. But noticing talent and noticing capability and energy and ability
to contribute is what leads to having an outstanding kind of sponsorship outcome.
(19:34):
That's great. Just to continue on that theme, you know, what else could male leaders do?
I guess leaders in general, but but those that happen to be male, what what else could
they do to really bring more focus to this issue?
Well, it's a great question. And I think there's a few places that have to do with looking
through your organization or your industry to see where the roadblocks are. So for us
(19:55):
to centerpiece ones are finding and recruiting women and then also developing them through
the ranks. So if you look at finding and recruiting women, part of it has to do with having this
be a conscious goal and trying to figure out what are the pipelines that we have and are
we being conscious about who's in them. One of the advisors that we've talked to in the
course of our journey here had a suggestion that you have your final applicant or your
(20:17):
final candidate pool resemble your initial applicant pool. If you had a couple of women
in the initial applicant pool, you should have a couple of women that you're finally
considering for a position. So don't screen them out at the first opportunity. So there's
a piece about recruiting where I think everyone who's a leader has a chance to make sure that
they're being conscious about demographics. And this doesn't have to do with compromising
(20:38):
standards. I think none of us is going to get anywhere with compromising standards. And
it's not good for women because I think there's so many incredible smart talented women, none
of us want there to be compromises. But it does have to do with having a broader net
of looking at capability and saying that these people have capabilities, even if I don't
see them looking the same exact way I did. So part of it is with recruiting. And it's
(20:58):
not simple because you know, there's not as many women in the pipeline, frankly, to be
honest, I talked about apprenticeships having about 4% women. We also at Ticard, we were
recruited a lot of folks out of college settings to be project engineers as do many of our
peer companies. And so there was one year that we hired all the women in the Chico State
graduating construction management class, but there was only four of them. So there's
(21:21):
just also an issue with trying to find them and say that's part of it. So I think the
first thing is being conscious that this is one of the topics that we're looking for
and being part of the outreach effort. And then as far as development goes, that sponsorship
topic is a big deal. And so saying that it matters to me to advance the women that I
have and to notice what their specific issues and topics are. So we have some incredibly
(21:42):
fabulous project engineers and assistant project managers and increasingly project managers
who are women. And so I'm mentioning those roles because they tend to be closer to the
earlier stages of their careers at my company and in my industry, there's just not as many
women at senior levels. And so how, where does the gap happen? And one of the, some of
the gaps are super thorny kind of like society and human being structural issues like what
(22:06):
women more commonly take off to raise kids. And so what are we going to do about that?
Like that's not really a company topic, but it is something about a structural organizational
topic. I mentioned briefly, how do we figure out part time and figure out what are ways
to have women stay, stay engaged in the workplace, even if they're going into that type of setting.
We've kind of experimented a little bit at Tiger with things like can we also offer like
(22:29):
emergency daycare. So for instance, if a woman has a meeting that runs long or has an obligation
for a client stuff in the evening, is there some way that we can support childcare? Because
that's one of the things where if they have to suddenly leave and go pick up their kid
at daycare, they're not part of the same conversation and they don't have the same experiences as
if you can actually stay and finish the whole conversation or have the entire involvement
(22:51):
with a customer. So there's places where that's worked, you know, like specific people where
we say, here's part of what we want to do is pay for your babysitter. And so turn in
your expense report, we'll put this on there. We want you to go do these things. And the
one that didn't work as well as when we tried to actually come up with a childcare firm
ourselves, we're very spread out as many construction companies are. So just the logistics
(23:12):
of that didn't work. But it has occasionally been beneficial to say, Hey, we're, we know
that this is a reason that you're not able to stay and participate and we're willing
to pay for the difference. And so it's obviously case by case, because I don't know that I
don't know how we could universally do that. Everybody has situations at home can navigate
on their own, but being able to make it possible for people that we feel like we want to sponsor
(23:33):
and we want to mentor and we want to bring them forward and saying, we're going to talk
about things like how you take care of your kids. You know, and there's plenty of industries
and companies where I think they're not as discussed. And sometimes I've worked for a
company before, and we're basically having pictures of your family on your desk made it
seem like maybe weren't that committed. So having the sense that actually we do care
(23:54):
about what's going on with your family and your personal life, and we're going to do
our best to make that possible, I think is half the battle because having women not feel
like they're on their own, and they're supposed to figure this out by themselves, I think
has been a really great message when we've communicated that. So that's one thing is
identifying specific challenges. And then the last part is to not assume anything, like
(24:14):
assume that women are capable and then stop assuming was a quote that I really liked.
So don't assume that they don't want to travel, don't assume that they don't want to work
late, don't assume that they're not going to be able to participate. There's a lot of
ways in which I think really super well meaning assumptions also get in the way of women developing
because people think they're being they're taking care. And part of what they're also
(24:35):
doing is not offering women the same opportunities because they don't think they'll be able to
take them. So one of the things that I sometimes like to highlight is that's not really a reason
why women don't advance is because they don't want to travel or they don't want to get dirty
or they don't want to mess up their hair with a hard hat like those aren't real things.
So I'm sure there's women like that and there's probably men like that, like some people don't
(24:57):
want to travel and get dirty or get up early. But assuming that that's the case with women
is just not correct. And so saying the women that we want love that stuff, you know, the
women that we want want all the same things as the men that we want, which is to really
be part of the business that we have and to make the trade offs that are required that
we all make, because we think the work is exciting.
I'm curious, Mary, what what haven't we talked about as well as to this issue that would
(25:20):
help bring more focus to it?
I'd say there's a couple of basic messages that I keep always thinking that I want men
to also think one is that it's it's to all of our benefit to have more women be here.
And the centerpiece reason for that is that there's a lot of talented women and we all
love talent. I've often quoted Warren Buffett, who said that part of the reason for his success
is he only had to compete with half the population.
(25:42):
And so thinking about how powerful our industry would be if the whole population wanted to
be here. That's a significant talent pool that we all need talent and we all need fabulous
people. We talked at the beginning about the workforce shortage and about the aging workforce.
And frankly, just for us to continue getting smarter and better as companies, we need all
the talent we can get.
So thinking of it as a women's issue is a little bit short-sighted and self limiting.
(26:05):
And so I continue to think that part of it is thinking of it as an industry issue that
we're missing out on talent and how are we going to go after it.
I think also reframes that topic. You know, I've been on boards or on settings before
where if I'm the only woman people ask me, what are we going to do to get more women
here? And I've commonly said, you know, all of us know women, you all know women. What
do you think? What do you think? How who should we be asking to join this organization?
(26:28):
So thinking of it as a company issue or an industry issue instead of a women's issue,
I think is critical. And it's not even hard to do, even if you're not so inclined from
a philosophy standpoint, you can just look at the numbers and see that there's a bunch
of talent we're not tapping into.
So a centerpiece item is it's everybody's topic. A second topic is to make sure that
we're feeling like women have a seat at the table and that they're part of the team. And
(26:50):
from there, just continuing to have women do an excellent job, give people performance
reviews, help them really get developmental feedback, understand what are the things that
they need to be doing better. Because that's the other side too, is that good women, we
don't want people to pull any punches either. I always want to know what do I need to work
on, just the same way as I think my excellent male colleagues always want to know what do
they need to work on so that we can get better and continue advancing our careers and our
(27:13):
ability to contribute. So all those things like treat women the same way you would treat
amazingly contributing men, I think is really a key. And I think an opportunity in a lot
of places.
You know, as you talk about Warren Buffett, first thing that came to mind was his business
partner Charlie Munger was always famous for mental models. And he talked a lot about
the power of inversion. So if you think about the problem in reverse, usually you'll get
(27:38):
farther. The punch sign he always used is, you know, I want to know where I'm going to
die. So I never go there. Or if you want to be more innovative as a company, just stop
doing all the things that stifle innovation. Don't necessarily come up with a 27 point
plan on how to become more innovative. And so if you apply that same philosophy to this
issue, there's lots of new initiatives that companies could take up to increase diversity,
(28:02):
to attract more women to operations roles. But a good bit of it could just be as simple
as one of the things you're doing today that basically cause that to not happen.
So some of the things that men who are interested in this topic can really do tactically speaking
is to take women with you. And so having a chance to go visit job sites or to go to customer
meetings or to visit vendors or check out our mobile equipment, things that are outside
(28:26):
and really in the nuts and bolts of what we do are great opportunities for anyone. And
so grabbing a woman that you think might actually be able to continue to develop and just taking
her with you as a shadow, I think is super important and key. It also helps women start
thinking about things they might want to do was beneficial to me earlier in my career,
(28:47):
when people would even just take me to capital planning meetings and say, Hey, we have a
thing today. We're going to decide what we want to add to the fleet. You want to come?
And it doesn't like I have a role. It's more of a fly on the wall question, but exposing
women to all the things that go on in our industry as such is an opportunity that men
can do who have that chance. One thing is to ask women what the experience is like for
them. So I've had some super lovely conversations with men in the course of my career, just
(29:11):
because they were also open and straightforward about they weren't really sure how to work
with women. One of my roles along the way was aggregate sales where I was selling rock
to construction customers. And one of my customers after I'd been working with him for a month
or two, finally just opened up and said, I really don't know how to work with you. And
really, you know, when my old salesperson gave me a price increase, I could just give
him a noogie and flip them off. And I figured I can't feel like I can't do those things
(29:34):
with you. And I don't really know how to treat you. So just being able to have an open and
direct conversation about the elephant in the room that I don't know how to work with
you was great for me because there's a super high level of trust that goes with vulnerability
and saying that I don't really know what I'm supposed to do right now, but I'm interested
in being better at it. That's a great conversation. And so men asking the women that you respect
(29:56):
and have some interest in developing what it's like for them and what is it that you can
do that will make this more comfortable for them, I think is super important. And then
finally, there's just don't be afraid to make mistakes. So I talked about assumptions and
how trying to not assume that women are not going to want to travel or not going to want
to get dirty. It's also the case that sometimes people are going to mess up. And sometimes
(30:16):
people are going to do those things and say, okay, well, I thought this would be a good
thing for you. And it turns out it wasn't. Or I thought I was helping and I'm not. And
that's okay, try again. And people sometimes they goof up or I don't even know if I can
hear it anymore when people say things like sweetie or babe or whatever. I don't even know
if I register that. But keep moving, you know, get better, keep moving, get better, make
(30:37):
mistakes and try again. I think people that are afraid of making mistakes and afraid of
they're going to say the wrong thing. And so therefore they steer clear of women and
try not to talk to them because they're afraid they're going to goof up. That's a worse error
than saying, yeah, it might, but it's okay, we're going to get in here and figure it out
together is super key. So I think getting in there and figuring it out and trying to do
the best each time and a little better than last time is the super is a super way for
(31:01):
women to continue advancing the cause of women and older companies.
Yeah, there's there's two things that as you were sharing, Mary kind of struck me that
we've talked about internally that's a my with respect to recruiting and retention from
a recruiting standpoint, you know, this theme of you can't be what you can't see if a candidate
is looking at your website and they look at all the photos you have of your people and
(31:23):
they don't see themselves in that snapshot, they're probably going to keep shopping. And
so everybody has to start somewhere, but you can't be what you can't see. And so if they
are not reflected in the image that they see back, then they're probably going to keep
going. And so you have to demonstrate to the marketplace how committed you are to it. And
then the other is just this concept of recruit the ones that are already here. And so once
(31:45):
somebody decides to vote with their feet and join your company to become part of your team,
the recruiting process doesn't stop, you know, it's really just getting started to how do
you continue to invest in that individual so that they don't get happy feet, take that
next recruiter phone call and decide they may want to go somewhere else. And so those
are two, two things that we talk about that I think very reflective of what you just shared.
(32:09):
Well there's a piece about recruiting the ones that are already here that's super interesting
and goes back to some of those subtle things we were talking about with allyship. So making
people feel like they want to be here and they can advance goes a little bit to the
assumptions point, you know, that assume that the ones that are already here actually want
to stay here. And then what are the investments that you would make in them? I feel like I've
also been in conversations where people feel like women are going to leave anyway. And
(32:31):
especially that these more junior women who haven't had kids yet are not likely to stay.
So not making those kind of assumptions and thinking they may stay and they may be amazing.
So what training and development opportunities are we going to send them to. And it's also
true that people may do all those things and then they might leave that might happen. And
that also might happen with men. So going ahead and making all the investments and sending
(32:53):
people to their training programs and going off and doing their 360s and their experiences
and their off-sites, all those things are things that help women that are already here
feel like they're part of it. And frankly, the good ones actually develop, which is also
exciting.
That's great. You know, I don't know why Charlie Munger is on the brain today, but he talks
about errors of commission and errors of omission. You know, the commissions are the easy ones,
(33:16):
right? You know, you do something, you screw up, you can kind of recognize in the moment,
hey, I screwed that up. Errors of omission are the things that you don't do that you
should have done that usually are only visible in hindsight. And so, you know, when you mess
up or you actually just don't try, you know, that's an error of omission, right? Because
you're not allowing women to thrive in the workplace if you're not willing to work with
(33:38):
them or give it a shot just because you might make a mistake.
I think the errors of omission are interesting because I think men who are uncomfortable
and aren't sure if women are going to say yes or if it's going to work out would tend
to not do things like bring them on a ride around or to a job site or to maybe to a meeting
that they don't necessarily have to go to. So thinking that I'm going to actually go
ahead and try, this is a good way to overcome the omission piece, move into commission of
(34:03):
let me try. And they might say no, and it might not work out, but we're all going to
try to make mistakes and try again. And I think a centerpiece is that there's a lot
of people of goodwill trying to solve these problems together. And so part of it is let's
all work on this together because everybody is not perfect and it's not always going to
work out. But if you can see people's intentions are good, you can also give them, give each
(34:24):
other feedback. I had an experience early in my career when I was a project engineer
of being in a field operations meeting where our super well-meaning safety specialist who
was a lovely warm person and had been with us for probably 40 years was announcing this
law that had taken place where if you have more than five people on your crew, and one
of them is a woman that you have to have a second blue hat, so a second porta potty.
(34:48):
And his conclusion was so be sure if you have five people that none of them is a woman.
Like, hey, hold on. That's not the right answer. He's like, what did I say? He was completely
floored as to what the problem had been. And so the funny part to him, it was funny to
me because I'm like he didn't realize what he had just said. It's a little frustrating.
It would be nice if that isn't how it came up. But the great part was that we're both
(35:10):
people of goodwill and we're going to sit down and like hammer it through. And he could
come to realize, I see what I said and that's not my intention and let me try this again.
And I could sort of realize where he was coming from, which is he has a huge heart and he's
trying to be a problem solver and not realizing in that moment, here's the impact of what
you just said. So keeping your sense of humor and working on it together with people where
you both care about each other and care about the outcome and might not say everything right
(35:34):
all the time and might not really say have the right instincts in that moment all the
time. But we're going to take a look at it and fix it for the next time, I think is a
centerpiece to all of us solving the problem together.
So I personally feel as though one of the ways that I have made my career and how it's
worked out is by essentially that I love what I do. I really enjoy my colleagues and I figure
it out when there's a lot of stuff where I'm the only woman. And so it's not, it doesn't
(35:57):
bother me and I'm not kind of carrying a torch. But it's also true that someday we need to
have this be a workplace where you don't really have to have a super great backbone and thick
skin to do it. You know, like what was it like being the only woman on hunting trips or the
only woman on golf trips or the only woman that's, you know, going to this offsite or
whatever. Like it's something where I just kind of shake it off and keep moving. Because
(36:18):
again, the point is these awesome people in the work that I'm doing, but it's not always
super comfortable, you know, what I sometimes talk about how I remember this moment of realizing
that what I wear is what women wear. And so I'm going to quit fussing about the fact that
I don't want to wear car hearts and the stuff the guys are wearing isn't really my thing.
Okay, so I'm going to wear something else and then that's what women are wearing because
(36:39):
I'm the only one. And it's not ideal, but it's sort of one of those, for me, to your
point on mental models, I'm going to have to go ahead and not worry about these things.
But it's not simple because what are the things that you have to quit doing? One is having
settings where all the people in it that are comfortable are people that have always been
comfortable in that setting. What else are we going to do? And one thing I've really appreciated,
(37:01):
my staff is completely awesome. And as you might imagine, this is a thought provoking
topic for the men as well as women that work for me. But one of them pointed out that not
even men like doing all that stuff. He's like, if you look at all the men in the group, they
don't all like hunting and they don't all like golfing. So it is a comp and upon us as
an industry to think of other ways to spend time together and build relationships. So
there's a few things to like, you know, think about from a reverse standpoint, I suppose.
(37:25):
Because I think, I think that there's a lot of opportunity to draw people in from more
diverse backgrounds if we don't all do the same things the same way we always did them.
You know, and something I've heard you talk about before is just things like the company
swag store. Are there choices for both men and women to fit men and women, those sorts
of things. Same thing with our hats, equipment, PPE.
(37:45):
Well, it's funny because there is a safety topic that people sometimes raise related
to PPE. So do you have small enough gloves and do you have the right size of safety glasses?
So those kinds of things can certainly be actual topics. And then there's just the
belonging piece that does go with how many times have I just had to have at one of the
company golf events, just the men's small polo. Well, okay, that's fine. And also it's
(38:09):
not anything I'm going to wear outside of today.
Right.
Because that's not actually what I wear. It's men's clothes. So there's a little bit of
that, which I think can super underline where women are welcome. So one of my colleagues
and one of the other board members on the Beavers, Dina Kimball, rents an electric company
where they actually made a super conscious effort to get fabulous women's swag and went
(38:30):
out to look at, you know, what kind of vendors create really cool items for women, you know,
golf wear or jackets or the Kuyu kinds of things like really neat stuff that we always
have that are often men's sizes and really gotten great creative things for women. And
I think that sort of thing just underlines the basic message, the subtle points of we
do want women here. And that's one that you can do consciously. I think there's some
(38:52):
unconscious stuff where if we notice that we can get over it. And one of those examples
would be mistaking women for someone more junior. So I kind of have gotten to where
I just think it's funny if people ask me to get coffee or if they start addressing the
man I happen to be standing near as though he's the person in charge, because I just
wait for them to realize their mistake. And I think that's kind of comical. But this goes
(39:13):
back to like, I shouldn't really have to, and we should be able to have women who don't
have that experience that are like, the same as men recognized for whatever their job actually
is like you're the project manager. So maybe someone shouldn't be addressing the laborer
standing near you as though they're the one running the program. So there's little things
like that. But I think they're more unconscious and it takes a lot more work to realize that
you're doing that and to quit doing it. Then it does to go out and make sure that you've
(39:35):
got women's swag as well. But there's a lot of little ways that I think men that are committed
to this and creative about it can think about what are ways that I can assume that the women
here are awesome contributing members. And let's start with that. And not that they're
necessarily in a support role. And the thing that's tough for me right there is that there's
a lot of amazing women in support roles. So I don't mean to be dismissive and say that
(39:57):
that's not a good thing or that the women that are doing it are contributing a lot because
they are. But I don't want to be mistaken for a secretary because I run this company.
And so having people say things like, can you make the copies? I'm like, no, I'll go
call somebody. So there's just little pieces, which again, is another place that women can
help underline it by politely declining to do things that are not part of their actual
(40:17):
job role at the moment. So there's a lot of little subtleties like that that I think we've
got a long way to go.
That's great. Back to the theme of this is your home versus your guest in this home.
And you belong here in the seat that you have.
Well, Mary, this has been a great conversation. Again, I can't thank you enough for taking
the time to do this and for getting up so early to do this out in California. Maybe
(40:37):
we'd like to end with the question of just what advice would you go back and give your
early career self?
If I were going back and giving my early career self some advice, I think part of it would
be don't take yourself too seriously. I have some good self respect, but don't get too wrapped
around the axle. I think the most important things that happen in our industry is that
we do outstanding work. We're paid well. I'd say one thing that's terrific about our industry
(41:02):
is that women are paid about 93% of what men are paid. And nationally, that's about 83%.
So women in construction make more money relative to men than almost any other industry there
is. So women are paid well in this line of work. So saying we do outstanding work and
we get paid well and we have the opportunity to do incredible stuff. And so some of these
things really need to be tackled, but they're also not the end of the world. So let's figure
(41:25):
it out. And let's find people that share that same attitude and focus on the things that
are super important and let the little things go. So I think I'd probably do that. And then
two is that my career has benefited immensely from having great mentors. And so I'm lucky
to work for my uncle who cares a ton about me personally, as well as my career. And also
before that, even when I didn't work at a family business, finding people who supported
(41:48):
my career and who thought highly of my capabilities was something that really made not only my
work life more fun, but also helped me understand what are opportunities I should take and where's
places that I should raise my hand. Because I think probably all young people and particularly
young women don't always think of raising their hand and saying, Hey, I'd like to do
this and I'd like to take that next thing on. And having a mentor or advisor that will
(42:10):
do that for you is something that I think everyone should seek out. And I feel super
lucky to have had them. So I'd say not take yourself too seriously and find people who
support you in your career and take their advice.
That's great. That's probably a great place to end the conversation. Mary, again, thank
you so much for doing this. Always great to see you and really appreciate it.
Thank you, Scott.
As always, thank you for listening. And please don't forget to like or subscribe to the
(42:31):
podcast so you don't miss another episode.
Hello and welcome. My name is Scott Winstead, president of FMI Consulting. I'm really excited
(00:08):
to share my conversation with Mary Tichert with you. Mary is the president of Tichert,
a fifth generation industry leading family business in the heavy civil construction
and construction material space. Tichert was founded in 1887 and is the owner of the 8th
California Contractors License. Mary received both her undergraduate degree and her MBA
(00:29):
from Harvard University. She is a former director of product strategy for one of
Apple's divisions and a former management consultant with Bain and Company. In addition
to her day job with Tichert, she's held a number of prominent leadership roles within
the engineering and construction industry. She is the immediate past president of the
Beavers, a heavy engineering and construction association that includes the who's who in
(00:51):
the heavy civil space. Mary is the first ever woman to serve in this role. She has served
as chair of the California State License Board as a senior fellow with the American Leadership
Forum and as a board member for the California Building Industry Association and the AGC.
In our conversation, we touch on a number of topics, but really zoom in on ways to attract
(01:11):
and retain women in construction operations roles. Well, Mary, good morning. Thank you
for being here and welcome to the show. Good morning. It's a privilege. Well, I'd love
to just start off with just a quick thumbnail of Tichert. So Tichert was founded in 1887
by my great-great-grandfather, who was a foreman for the guy who invented expansion joints.
(01:32):
So Adolf had been working for him as a foreman and then hung out his shingle when the state
capital was built in California. So decided he knew how to do this stuff and built the
sidewalks around the state capital. We ultimately got state contractors license number eight.
We've been in business in California for about 137 years now. So I've sometimes pointed
(01:52):
out that we talk a lot about Adolf, but also his wife, Carrie, was part of the program
and she did the books at the kitchen table while he rode around in the carriage and checked
on jobs. So pretty exciting that nowadays we can ride around in the carriage and check
on jobs. But Tichert has been in the infrastructure business ever since. And so we started with
those sidewalks I was mentioning. We've always built the infrastructure that California needs.
(02:14):
And so we went from there to building roads. We had state highway contract number three.
Back when the state thought all we would have to do for these hoarseless carriages was to
connect all the county seats. So we started building roads and then went on when states
started flooding, we started building levees. And then in the World War II, we started doing
airfields. And then when the soldiers started coming home from war, we built subdivisions.
(02:36):
So ever since about the 1950s, we've been heavily involved in subdivision infrastructure.
It's probably about a third of our business. And then we have another third that's interesting
site work. So we build a lot of schools and back in the old days, we used to build malls,
not much of those for a while, but warehouses and big site projects. And then we also have
a significant amount of public work we do. So we've always done those roads and streets
(02:58):
and levees and dams and that kind of good stuff. We added materials in the 1930s. And
so we also have two of the 10 largest sanding gravel plants in the country, about 22 rock
plants. And so we do construction materials as well. And then around 2015, we started
doing energy infrastructure. And so going back to the point of what does the state need?
And increasingly, what do the Western US states need? We do gas distribution as well as power
(03:22):
distribution for electrical. So a lot of different kinds of energy and utility work at this point.
So the common theme is infrastructure. And the company is about three times bigger than
it was when I became Chief Operating Officer in 2013. And we're doing more and more kinds
of infrastructure because there's more and more to do.
Wow. We could have an entire conversation about that history. So fascinating. It's funny.
(03:43):
You mentioned the 137 years in business. I mean, that's the definition of rarefied air.
And in one of our previous podcast episodes, we talked with the CEO that was in the process
of transitioning from his, he founded the business to his second generation. And we
talked about the concept of enduring organizations. And I think we've got a perfect example of
(04:05):
what that looks like when you go five generations. There aren't many firms of any type that
can say that.
Well, you know, it's interesting. We've actually been in the midst of for the first time documenting
our sustainability program. And one of the things that consultant who's writing the report
said is that there's only two companies they've talked to that are as top to bottom committed
to all their values as we are. And she said, the other one's over 100 years also. And it
(04:26):
made me sort of think, I wonder to what degree the fact that we've changed the work we do
a lot, but we've always had a very common value set of building trust and tradition,
doing things right. That's lasted us a long time and people that want to work that way
want to work here. So it could be as simple as that or as complicated as that. My grandfather's
direction in the 1950s was that we're going to operate within the law. And if we can make
(04:47):
a profit. And it's funny because hopefully the law is table stakes nowadays, but in the
1950s, you think about here's what we're going to do is do stuff right. So I think we've
been fortunate to attract some fantastic people, which is the reason we've been here so long.
He kind of touched on the question I wanted to get to is just the company's evolution
and what is it the, I guess if there's a through line on how you would trace back all the success
(05:09):
over the years and it sounds like just the concept of core values and remaining consistent
in those over time.
So Ticard is a regional contractor and one of the benefits is that we've a significant
concentration of work in the Western US. And so people, most of our people sleep at home
most nights. And we have the super strong value set of, as I mentioned, doing things
(05:30):
right. So folks that want to build things, generate trust with their customers and their
employees and follow the traditions that we have, as well as come up with some continuous
improvement on occasion, tend to also be people who like their families and they like sleeping
at home most nights and they may want to coach their kids little league team and they might
want to go home and see their kid during the day. So our business lends itself to that
(05:50):
and attracts the people that share our values. So I think it's kind of been synergistic over
time that the values that we have has people that like to be in our region and then we
get to keep moving that way. So I think that's one of my centerpiece ideas at this point.
You know, I give my ancestors some credit for all of the strategic decisions such as
buying materials at good points in our history. So having significant presence in materials
(06:11):
as well as construction, I think has helped us stay steady throughout all these years
because materials in California is a lot more concentrated of an industry than construction
because unfortunately, sometimes in construction, we're competing with any Joe potatoes who
can get a license and a bond, but materials has I think our most recent rock plant that
we built from scratch took us 17 years to permit. So California is a non trivial place
(06:34):
to do aggregate production. So having both of those things going means that we have some
portfolio that's always sustaining us. So I think some smart business decisions and
some values that attract the people that we most appreciate. And then they stay here for
their whole careers. We have all these people that have been here 20 30 40 years kind of
combined stem make our make us stick around a while. So yeah, part of my job is don't
(06:55):
screw up.
That's easy to say hard to do. I am curious, are the other seven contractors that had licenses
one through seven, are they still around?
No, we're the oldest active license in the state. And it's funny because they didn't
start issuing licenses here until I think it was the late 1920s or early 1930s. We'd
already been in business for almost 40 years when they started issuing licenses. So I sometimes
(07:20):
wonder if my great grandfather had gotten up earlier, could we've got license number
one, like, was he just eight in line? But it is pretty, it's a significant thing. There's
only about I think there's three contractors with licenses lower than 100. So it's a pretty
great honor to have been here this long.
It's awesome. You talked about people and the value of having those folks be able to
(07:41):
stay at home, see little kids and go to baseball games and whatnot. Continuing on that theme
as it relates to people, you know, one of the things that's sort of been tortured over
the last several years is just the industry's talent shortage. I mean, it's become a bit
of a cliche to say that there is a talent shortage in the construction industry. We've
started to call it just a characteristic of the industry because it's not a trend. I mean,
(08:02):
you can go back, look at ENR and trade red covers over the last 50 or 60 years and it's
always been a thing. So I'm curious about how you think about this from an industry
perspective.
Well, there are several dimensions to the talent shortage that we're focused on. One
is that we're certainly faced with an aging workforce. And so if you look at sort of
the number of workers that are over 55 in our industry and see that in the course of
(08:27):
the, let's see, I think it's in the course of the last 10 years, it's about doubled.
So over 55 used to be around 11.5% and it's now almost 23%. So you look at there's a lot
of folks who have a lot of expertise who are getting closer to the end of their careers.
So we need to find more people coming into it that have the willingness and ability and
creativity to take their places. We have some significant issues with diversity. And so
(08:52):
Ticard's not really unique in the fact that in California, we have an outstanding component
of a Hispanic workforce, but we're super underrepresented on other demographics. And so
there's a lot of communities that aren't selecting construction. And then we want them to choose
our industry and certainly choose our company.
And then the one that I've spent a ton of time on because it almost seems like low hanging
fruit and also because there's no one in a better position to do it than me is that we
(09:15):
also don't have a lot of women. So nationally, there's about 11% women in construction and
in operations, it's about 6%. So it's just, if you think about the fact that women represent
about half the population, that's a big gap. And so there's a lot of people not choosing
it.
So when you look at why is that and what are some ways that we can start attracting additional
(09:36):
talent if we tap into some of these categories. Part of it is making our company an attractive
place to work. And part of it is trying to figure out how do we identify and demolish
the barriers that are keeping people from wanting to choose it because it's pretty statistically
significant how different those numbers are.
I'd love to kind of go a little bit deeper on the concept of barriers, you know, in your
(09:56):
role both inside the company as well as in the broader industry. What do you see as some
of those common barriers that could be low hanging fruit?
One of the barriers is having women actually feel like they belong here. There's an observation
someone made, what a difference there is between feeling welcome and feeling like you belong.
So welcome would be that you're a guest in my house and you're welcome. And belonging
(10:18):
would be you live here. So trying to have women feel like they belong is a big deal
in this industry. And there's one of the centerpiece challenges is that there's some dimension
of critical mass that is hard to come up with. And so if you're the only woman on a crew
or you're the only woman on a team, then you pretty much all the time are inventing for
yourself. How is it that I sit in here and what am I supposed to be doing? And if you're
(10:41):
actually got some company or some models or some people to share your experiences with
it becomes a less isolated experience. So just the simple fact of how comfortable do
you feel at work? And does this feel like a place that you should be? I think has something
to do with finding ways to have numbers come together.
So at Ticard I started a women in operations group about 10 years ago for the simple fact
(11:01):
that I looked around and we didn't really have very many because I had started out feeling
like I was raised thinking that women can do anything men can do. My dad was super encouraging
that way. So I never had thought of it as my topic or my issue, but simply looking and
saying, oh, there aren't any. And what are we going to do about that? And so I gathered
up the women that we did have and asked them that same question is what are some things
that we can do to overcome the issues that we have here. One of the centerpiece items
(11:25):
was mentoring. And so the two things that we decided to spend time on were mentoring
and outreach. The whole time we've been in existence as a group, we've kind of underlined
that the main point is to do a good job of our day jobs. And so all of us have to be
good at what we do for a living. And so with that being the table stakes, if we have extra
time, what do we want to spend it on? Highlighted that recruiting and mentoring were both worth
our while. So mentoring is interesting. I think there's sometimes been a feeling maybe
(11:50):
amongst people and certainly amongst generations in our industry that like women can mentor
each other and we can pull ourselves along by our own bootstraps. And I think there are
outstanding women and we have to keep forming a community. But it's also true that fabulous
men are a significant piece of our mentoring program. So we started one to sort of say,
let's find people who can help you develop in your career. And many of those people are
(12:12):
meant just because to point A, there's not as many women leaders and we need to have
leaders mentoring people that want to come along. So mentorship is one of the ones that
I'm not going to say it's easy to do, but it's super important to do. A related piece
is thinking about what is the community that we can build among the women who are here
so that they feel not isolated going to that point of feeling like you belong. And so for
(12:34):
instance, in our case, we have a couple of things. One is a quarterly meeting for women
in operations. For instance, we're getting together for lunch for Women in Construction
Week and we'll have some talks and introduce the new women that have joined us since last
time and talk about that. We do volunteer projects together. There's a thing called
Women Build where we're going to go build Habitat for Humanity House sometime this month
(12:54):
since it's the women's month. And so do a few things like that where we build community
among the women that are here. And part of it is being intentional on job assignments.
It's interesting how we're similar to other construction companies in that we have about
1% women on cruise. So not very many women are on cruise. It might be growing. California
Department of Industrial Relations says that there's about 4% women in apprentice programs
(13:18):
and so we might be getting more. But both of those numbers are truly pathetic. So if
you look at the numbers that we have on cruise, three of the women that we have are on the
same crew. And that's pretty interesting. So it turns out there's two sisters and a
cousin and so they joined up partly because they felt comfortable. They're like, okay,
this is an okay place. I can talk about the things that I'm seeing as challenges and share
(13:38):
my experiences and feel like I'm going to be treated well. I like to say that there's
more and more awareness even in construction field operations, which isn't historically
identical to like a retailer banking environment. There's more and more awareness of kind of
treating women respectfully and all the things that that means. I think we've overcome all
the basic hurdles, but there's still little things that are hard for people who aren't
(14:00):
paying attention. But if you've got three women on a crew, that's probably not going
to be a thing. And so trying to figure out how do we do staffing and assignments so that
women have colleagues as well as resources to continue exploring their own experiences
and figuring out what are the things that are going to be barriers for them and is it
for everybody else or just for them? Is it the all? There was a woman early in my management
(14:21):
career who had reached out for a mentor and she worked in a different part of the state.
So I traveled down to meet her for breakfast and her she was a project engineer and had
wanted to talk about the fact that she felt like the foreman wasn't doing what she said
or following her direction because of her gender. And I said, well, actually, it's probably
because you're 22 and he thinks he knows more than you and he probably does. And if you
(14:42):
talk to the other men that are your same class, I bet they have the exact same experience.
And it was just a relief for her because that's the thing is you don't know if your experiences
are normal or not. So saying, no, that's actually normal for a brand new PE not to have total
direction of the foreman you might want to consider. So I think just having being able
to compare notes going to your point on what's the low hanging fruit is important. And the
(15:03):
other thing companies can do is to think about what are ways that we can create community
and allow for things or that make women feel more comfortable being part of things. So
I've done some allyship conversations both at work and in some industry settings to talk
about all the little things that comprise that. So for instance, literally making room
at the table. So if you've got a meeting and it doesn't have enough chairs, making sure
(15:26):
the women actually have an somewhere to sit so you don't walk into a room and find that
you have to be standing or going to find your own seat. Or if you're standing in the hallway
talking and there's a clump of people kind of opening the circle for a woman to join
in. So there's some little things like that which are just basic physical gestures that
indicate I'm expecting you and you're a normal part of this group. And that just it's a really
(15:49):
interesting how far that kind of thing goes to make women feel like they belong. There's
asking opinions. And so it's one of those things where I hesitate to say that this is
all about women because there's also factors like seniority and other topics. But there's
a lot of women who don't necessarily speak up right away or maybe volunteer their opinions
as readily as some of their male counterparts. And so just listening and making sure that
(16:10):
you've asked people's opinions in the room who may not have shared them or called on
folks, that sort of thing, I think increases the amount of participation that women have
in the workplace and the way that folks feel comfortable being part of meetings and part
of conversations that are super important for how this all works.
You covered a whole lot and there's a lot to unpack there. I love the image of the you're
(16:31):
a guest in this home versus this is your home that really brings it into focus as to what
she wants folks to feel like. You talked about allyship and one of Type III's initiatives
around mentorship which started some time ago. I know when we spoke before, Mary, we
talked about the difference between mentorship and sponsorship. And I was wondering if you
could say more about that from your perspective.
(16:53):
Sure. So I'd say mentorship, which many of us have kind of been part of maybe our whole
careers is someone who would be a regular part of your career and give you advice on how
you proceed and suggestions on your own ambitions and your own challenges and how you overcome
them. There's formal programs like the one we've tried to set up and then informal relationships
that people form at work, where it's someone you can go to for advice that helps you navigate
(17:17):
your own career. And that's super important. And I think the informal ones are vital and
frankly, if everyone could form informal mentorships with people that they really resonate with,
I think that would be ideal. In our case, we match people up to try to foster and facilitate
that. Sponsorship is a little different. And sponsorship, I kind of picture as talking
about people in a good way behind closed doors. So it's saying that here's someone that I
(17:40):
feel like deserves the next opportunity or here's someone that I'm going to advance and
suggest for promotions and advancement and maybe new job assignments. So and it doesn't
even, it doesn't have as much of a time component like mentoring has a ton to do with directly
developing a person. And sponsorship has a little bit, and obviously someone could do
both these things, but sponsorship is advocacy and saying that here is a top notch candidate
(18:04):
for this next thing. So one of the things that I think about sometimes is, you know,
we have a few women that are outstanding contributors that are in part time capacities
because they're also taking care of their kids. And so for me, part of it is the folks
who are their sponsors also are always highlighting their contribution and their ability to take
on the next assignment. So if a job comes up and someone kind of probably unconsciously
(18:29):
dismisses them because they're part time, the folks who are really advocating for them
and saying they're super capable, they're going to make it work. This is something that
we should give that person an opportunity to do. That's an example of sponsorship, where
you're actually saying I'm looking out for that person. So the thing that's really cool
about it, well, two things. One is the fact of noticing someone's capabilities. Because
(18:49):
I think one of the historical challenges probably for all of us as human beings is that we may
be support or notice the contributions of people who are more like us. So it may be easier
to see someone's contributions that you can recognize as your own. So having people in
often this is meant just because going back to the demographics of our business, be able
to say, Hey, this woman's contributing in a huge way. And I think we should give her
(19:12):
this next assignment is really cool sponsorship and sometimes take some conscious effort going
to that point of it may not be a person that looks like you or in the case of part time,
it may not be a person whose contributions look exactly like they have throughout the
history of the industry. But noticing talent and noticing capability and energy and ability
to contribute is what leads to having an outstanding kind of sponsorship outcome.
(19:34):
That's great. Just to continue on that theme, you know, what else could male leaders do?
I guess leaders in general, but but those that happen to be male, what what else could
they do to really bring more focus to this issue?
Well, it's a great question. And I think there's a few places that have to do with looking
through your organization or your industry to see where the roadblocks are. So for us
(19:55):
to centerpiece ones are finding and recruiting women and then also developing them through
the ranks. So if you look at finding and recruiting women, part of it has to do with having this
be a conscious goal and trying to figure out what are the pipelines that we have and are
we being conscious about who's in them. One of the advisors that we've talked to in the
course of our journey here had a suggestion that you have your final applicant or your
(20:17):
final candidate pool resemble your initial applicant pool. If you had a couple of women
in the initial applicant pool, you should have a couple of women that you're finally
considering for a position. So don't screen them out at the first opportunity. So there's
a piece about recruiting where I think everyone who's a leader has a chance to make sure that
they're being conscious about demographics. And this doesn't have to do with compromising
(20:38):
standards. I think none of us is going to get anywhere with compromising standards. And
it's not good for women because I think there's so many incredible smart talented women, none
of us want there to be compromises. But it does have to do with having a broader net
of looking at capability and saying that these people have capabilities, even if I don't
see them looking the same exact way I did. So part of it is with recruiting. And it's
(20:58):
not simple because you know, there's not as many women in the pipeline, frankly, to be
honest, I talked about apprenticeships having about 4% women. We also at Ticard, we were
recruited a lot of folks out of college settings to be project engineers as do many of our
peer companies. And so there was one year that we hired all the women in the Chico State
graduating construction management class, but there was only four of them. So there's
(21:21):
just also an issue with trying to find them and say that's part of it. So I think the
first thing is being conscious that this is one of the topics that we're looking for
and being part of the outreach effort. And then as far as development goes, that sponsorship
topic is a big deal. And so saying that it matters to me to advance the women that I
have and to notice what their specific issues and topics are. So we have some incredibly
(21:42):
fabulous project engineers and assistant project managers and increasingly project managers
who are women. And so I'm mentioning those roles because they tend to be closer to the
earlier stages of their careers at my company and in my industry, there's just not as many
women at senior levels. And so how, where does the gap happen? And one of the, some of
the gaps are super thorny kind of like society and human being structural issues like what
(22:06):
women more commonly take off to raise kids. And so what are we going to do about that?
Like that's not really a company topic, but it is something about a structural organizational
topic. I mentioned briefly, how do we figure out part time and figure out what are ways
to have women stay, stay engaged in the workplace, even if they're going into that type of setting.
We've kind of experimented a little bit at Tiger with things like can we also offer like
(22:29):
emergency daycare. So for instance, if a woman has a meeting that runs long or has an obligation
for a client stuff in the evening, is there some way that we can support childcare? Because
that's one of the things where if they have to suddenly leave and go pick up their kid
at daycare, they're not part of the same conversation and they don't have the same experiences as
if you can actually stay and finish the whole conversation or have the entire involvement
(22:51):
with a customer. So there's places where that's worked, you know, like specific people where
we say, here's part of what we want to do is pay for your babysitter. And so turn in
your expense report, we'll put this on there. We want you to go do these things. And the
one that didn't work as well as when we tried to actually come up with a childcare firm
ourselves, we're very spread out as many construction companies are. So just the logistics
(23:12):
of that didn't work. But it has occasionally been beneficial to say, Hey, we're, we know
that this is a reason that you're not able to stay and participate and we're willing
to pay for the difference. And so it's obviously case by case, because I don't know that I
don't know how we could universally do that. Everybody has situations at home can navigate
on their own, but being able to make it possible for people that we feel like we want to sponsor
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and we want to mentor and we want to bring them forward and saying, we're going to talk
about things like how you take care of your kids. You know, and there's plenty of industries
and companies where I think they're not as discussed. And sometimes I've worked for a
company before, and we're basically having pictures of your family on your desk made it
seem like maybe weren't that committed. So having the sense that actually we do care
(23:54):
about what's going on with your family and your personal life, and we're going to do
our best to make that possible, I think is half the battle because having women not feel
like they're on their own, and they're supposed to figure this out by themselves, I think
has been a really great message when we've communicated that. So that's one thing is
identifying specific challenges. And then the last part is to not assume anything, like
(24:14):
assume that women are capable and then stop assuming was a quote that I really liked.
So don't assume that they don't want to travel, don't assume that they don't want to work
late, don't assume that they're not going to be able to participate. There's a lot of
ways in which I think really super well meaning assumptions also get in the way of women developing
because people think they're being they're taking care. And part of what they're also
(24:35):
doing is not offering women the same opportunities because they don't think they'll be able to
take them. So one of the things that I sometimes like to highlight is that's not really a reason
why women don't advance is because they don't want to travel or they don't want to get dirty
or they don't want to mess up their hair with a hard hat like those aren't real things.
So I'm sure there's women like that and there's probably men like that, like some people don't
(24:57):
want to travel and get dirty or get up early. But assuming that that's the case with women
is just not correct. And so saying the women that we want love that stuff, you know, the
women that we want want all the same things as the men that we want, which is to really
be part of the business that we have and to make the trade offs that are required that
we all make, because we think the work is exciting.
I'm curious, Mary, what what haven't we talked about as well as to this issue that would
(25:20):
help bring more focus to it?
I'd say there's a couple of basic messages that I keep always thinking that I want men
to also think one is that it's it's to all of our benefit to have more women be here.
And the centerpiece reason for that is that there's a lot of talented women and we all
love talent. I've often quoted Warren Buffett, who said that part of the reason for his success
is he only had to compete with half the population.
(25:42):
And so thinking about how powerful our industry would be if the whole population wanted to
be here. That's a significant talent pool that we all need talent and we all need fabulous
people. We talked at the beginning about the workforce shortage and about the aging workforce.
And frankly, just for us to continue getting smarter and better as companies, we need all
the talent we can get.
So thinking of it as a women's issue is a little bit short-sighted and self limiting.
(26:05):
And so I continue to think that part of it is thinking of it as an industry issue that
we're missing out on talent and how are we going to go after it.
I think also reframes that topic. You know, I've been on boards or on settings before
where if I'm the only woman people ask me, what are we going to do to get more women
here? And I've commonly said, you know, all of us know women, you all know women. What
do you think? What do you think? How who should we be asking to join this organization?
(26:28):
So thinking of it as a company issue or an industry issue instead of a women's issue,
I think is critical. And it's not even hard to do, even if you're not so inclined from
a philosophy standpoint, you can just look at the numbers and see that there's a bunch
of talent we're not tapping into.
So a centerpiece item is it's everybody's topic. A second topic is to make sure that
we're feeling like women have a seat at the table and that they're part of the team. And
(26:50):
from there, just continuing to have women do an excellent job, give people performance
reviews, help them really get developmental feedback, understand what are the things that
they need to be doing better. Because that's the other side too, is that good women, we
don't want people to pull any punches either. I always want to know what do I need to work
on, just the same way as I think my excellent male colleagues always want to know what do
they need to work on so that we can get better and continue advancing our careers and our
(27:13):
ability to contribute. So all those things like treat women the same way you would treat
amazingly contributing men, I think is really a key. And I think an opportunity in a lot
of places.
You know, as you talk about Warren Buffett, first thing that came to mind was his business
partner Charlie Munger was always famous for mental models. And he talked a lot about
the power of inversion. So if you think about the problem in reverse, usually you'll get
(27:38):
farther. The punch sign he always used is, you know, I want to know where I'm going to
die. So I never go there. Or if you want to be more innovative as a company, just stop
doing all the things that stifle innovation. Don't necessarily come up with a 27 point
plan on how to become more innovative. And so if you apply that same philosophy to this
issue, there's lots of new initiatives that companies could take up to increase diversity,
(28:02):
to attract more women to operations roles. But a good bit of it could just be as simple
as one of the things you're doing today that basically cause that to not happen.
So some of the things that men who are interested in this topic can really do tactically speaking
is to take women with you. And so having a chance to go visit job sites or to go to customer
meetings or to visit vendors or check out our mobile equipment, things that are outside
(28:26):
and really in the nuts and bolts of what we do are great opportunities for anyone. And
so grabbing a woman that you think might actually be able to continue to develop and just taking
her with you as a shadow, I think is super important and key. It also helps women start
thinking about things they might want to do was beneficial to me earlier in my career,
(28:47):
when people would even just take me to capital planning meetings and say, Hey, we have a
thing today. We're going to decide what we want to add to the fleet. You want to come?
And it doesn't like I have a role. It's more of a fly on the wall question, but exposing
women to all the things that go on in our industry as such is an opportunity that men
can do who have that chance. One thing is to ask women what the experience is like for
them. So I've had some super lovely conversations with men in the course of my career, just
(29:11):
because they were also open and straightforward about they weren't really sure how to work
with women. One of my roles along the way was aggregate sales where I was selling rock
to construction customers. And one of my customers after I'd been working with him for a month
or two, finally just opened up and said, I really don't know how to work with you. And
really, you know, when my old salesperson gave me a price increase, I could just give
him a noogie and flip them off. And I figured I can't feel like I can't do those things
(29:34):
with you. And I don't really know how to treat you. So just being able to have an open and
direct conversation about the elephant in the room that I don't know how to work with
you was great for me because there's a super high level of trust that goes with vulnerability
and saying that I don't really know what I'm supposed to do right now, but I'm interested
in being better at it. That's a great conversation. And so men asking the women that you respect
(29:56):
and have some interest in developing what it's like for them and what is it that you can
do that will make this more comfortable for them, I think is super important. And then
finally, there's just don't be afraid to make mistakes. So I talked about assumptions and
how trying to not assume that women are not going to want to travel or not going to want
to get dirty. It's also the case that sometimes people are going to mess up. And sometimes
(30:16):
people are going to do those things and say, okay, well, I thought this would be a good
thing for you. And it turns out it wasn't. Or I thought I was helping and I'm not. And
that's okay, try again. And people sometimes they goof up or I don't even know if I can
hear it anymore when people say things like sweetie or babe or whatever. I don't even know
if I register that. But keep moving, you know, get better, keep moving, get better, make
(30:37):
mistakes and try again. I think people that are afraid of making mistakes and afraid of
they're going to say the wrong thing. And so therefore they steer clear of women and
try not to talk to them because they're afraid they're going to goof up. That's a worse error
than saying, yeah, it might, but it's okay, we're going to get in here and figure it out
together is super key. So I think getting in there and figuring it out and trying to do
the best each time and a little better than last time is the super is a super way for
(31:01):
women to continue advancing the cause of women and older companies.
Yeah, there's there's two things that as you were sharing, Mary kind of struck me that
we've talked about internally that's a my with respect to recruiting and retention from
a recruiting standpoint, you know, this theme of you can't be what you can't see if a candidate
is looking at your website and they look at all the photos you have of your people and
(31:23):
they don't see themselves in that snapshot, they're probably going to keep shopping. And
so everybody has to start somewhere, but you can't be what you can't see. And so if they
are not reflected in the image that they see back, then they're probably going to keep
going. And so you have to demonstrate to the marketplace how committed you are to it. And
then the other is just this concept of recruit the ones that are already here. And so once
(31:45):
somebody decides to vote with their feet and join your company to become part of your team,
the recruiting process doesn't stop, you know, it's really just getting started to how do
you continue to invest in that individual so that they don't get happy feet, take that
next recruiter phone call and decide they may want to go somewhere else. And so those
are two, two things that we talk about that I think very reflective of what you just shared.
(32:09):
Well there's a piece about recruiting the ones that are already here that's super interesting
and goes back to some of those subtle things we were talking about with allyship. So making
people feel like they want to be here and they can advance goes a little bit to the
assumptions point, you know, that assume that the ones that are already here actually want
to stay here. And then what are the investments that you would make in them? I feel like I've
also been in conversations where people feel like women are going to leave anyway. And
(32:31):
especially that these more junior women who haven't had kids yet are not likely to stay.
So not making those kind of assumptions and thinking they may stay and they may be amazing.
So what training and development opportunities are we going to send them to. And it's also
true that people may do all those things and then they might leave that might happen. And
that also might happen with men. So going ahead and making all the investments and sending
(32:53):
people to their training programs and going off and doing their 360s and their experiences
and their off-sites, all those things are things that help women that are already here
feel like they're part of it. And frankly, the good ones actually develop, which is also
exciting.
That's great. You know, I don't know why Charlie Munger is on the brain today, but he talks
about errors of commission and errors of omission. You know, the commissions are the easy ones,
(33:16):
right? You know, you do something, you screw up, you can kind of recognize in the moment,
hey, I screwed that up. Errors of omission are the things that you don't do that you
should have done that usually are only visible in hindsight. And so, you know, when you mess
up or you actually just don't try, you know, that's an error of omission, right? Because
you're not allowing women to thrive in the workplace if you're not willing to work with
(33:38):
them or give it a shot just because you might make a mistake.
I think the errors of omission are interesting because I think men who are uncomfortable
and aren't sure if women are going to say yes or if it's going to work out would tend
to not do things like bring them on a ride around or to a job site or to maybe to a meeting
that they don't necessarily have to go to. So thinking that I'm going to actually go
ahead and try, this is a good way to overcome the omission piece, move into commission of
(34:03):
let me try. And they might say no, and it might not work out, but we're all going to
try to make mistakes and try again. And I think a centerpiece is that there's a lot
of people of goodwill trying to solve these problems together. And so part of it is let's
all work on this together because everybody is not perfect and it's not always going to
work out. But if you can see people's intentions are good, you can also give them, give each
(34:24):
other feedback. I had an experience early in my career when I was a project engineer
of being in a field operations meeting where our super well-meaning safety specialist who
was a lovely warm person and had been with us for probably 40 years was announcing this
law that had taken place where if you have more than five people on your crew, and one
of them is a woman that you have to have a second blue hat, so a second porta potty.
(34:48):
And his conclusion was so be sure if you have five people that none of them is a woman.
Like, hey, hold on. That's not the right answer. He's like, what did I say? He was completely
floored as to what the problem had been. And so the funny part to him, it was funny to
me because I'm like he didn't realize what he had just said. It's a little frustrating.
It would be nice if that isn't how it came up. But the great part was that we're both
(35:10):
people of goodwill and we're going to sit down and like hammer it through. And he could
come to realize, I see what I said and that's not my intention and let me try this again.
And I could sort of realize where he was coming from, which is he has a huge heart and he's
trying to be a problem solver and not realizing in that moment, here's the impact of what
you just said. So keeping your sense of humor and working on it together with people where
you both care about each other and care about the outcome and might not say everything right
(35:34):
all the time and might not really say have the right instincts in that moment all the
time. But we're going to take a look at it and fix it for the next time, I think is a
centerpiece to all of us solving the problem together.
So I personally feel as though one of the ways that I have made my career and how it's
worked out is by essentially that I love what I do. I really enjoy my colleagues and I figure
it out when there's a lot of stuff where I'm the only woman. And so it's not, it doesn't
(35:57):
bother me and I'm not kind of carrying a torch. But it's also true that someday we need to
have this be a workplace where you don't really have to have a super great backbone and thick
skin to do it. You know, like what was it like being the only woman on hunting trips or the
only woman on golf trips or the only woman that's, you know, going to this offsite or
whatever. Like it's something where I just kind of shake it off and keep moving. Because
(36:18):
again, the point is these awesome people in the work that I'm doing, but it's not always
super comfortable, you know, what I sometimes talk about how I remember this moment of realizing
that what I wear is what women wear. And so I'm going to quit fussing about the fact that
I don't want to wear car hearts and the stuff the guys are wearing isn't really my thing.
Okay, so I'm going to wear something else and then that's what women are wearing because
(36:39):
I'm the only one. And it's not ideal, but it's sort of one of those, for me, to your
point on mental models, I'm going to have to go ahead and not worry about these things.
But it's not simple because what are the things that you have to quit doing? One is having
settings where all the people in it that are comfortable are people that have always been
comfortable in that setting. What else are we going to do? And one thing I've really appreciated,
(37:01):
my staff is completely awesome. And as you might imagine, this is a thought provoking
topic for the men as well as women that work for me. But one of them pointed out that not
even men like doing all that stuff. He's like, if you look at all the men in the group, they
don't all like hunting and they don't all like golfing. So it is a comp and upon us as
an industry to think of other ways to spend time together and build relationships. So
there's a few things to like, you know, think about from a reverse standpoint, I suppose.
(37:25):
Because I think, I think that there's a lot of opportunity to draw people in from more
diverse backgrounds if we don't all do the same things the same way we always did them.
You know, and something I've heard you talk about before is just things like the company
swag store. Are there choices for both men and women to fit men and women, those sorts
of things. Same thing with our hats, equipment, PPE.
(37:45):
Well, it's funny because there is a safety topic that people sometimes raise related
to PPE. So do you have small enough gloves and do you have the right size of safety glasses?
So those kinds of things can certainly be actual topics. And then there's just the
belonging piece that does go with how many times have I just had to have at one of the
company golf events, just the men's small polo. Well, okay, that's fine. And also it's
(38:09):
not anything I'm going to wear outside of today.
Right.
Because that's not actually what I wear. It's men's clothes. So there's a little bit of
that, which I think can super underline where women are welcome. So one of my colleagues
and one of the other board members on the Beavers, Dina Kimball, rents an electric company
where they actually made a super conscious effort to get fabulous women's swag and went
(38:30):
out to look at, you know, what kind of vendors create really cool items for women, you know,
golf wear or jackets or the Kuyu kinds of things like really neat stuff that we always
have that are often men's sizes and really gotten great creative things for women. And
I think that sort of thing just underlines the basic message, the subtle points of we
do want women here. And that's one that you can do consciously. I think there's some
(38:52):
unconscious stuff where if we notice that we can get over it. And one of those examples
would be mistaking women for someone more junior. So I kind of have gotten to where
I just think it's funny if people ask me to get coffee or if they start addressing the
man I happen to be standing near as though he's the person in charge, because I just
wait for them to realize their mistake. And I think that's kind of comical. But this goes
(39:13):
back to like, I shouldn't really have to, and we should be able to have women who don't
have that experience that are like, the same as men recognized for whatever their job actually
is like you're the project manager. So maybe someone shouldn't be addressing the laborer
standing near you as though they're the one running the program. So there's little things
like that. But I think they're more unconscious and it takes a lot more work to realize that
you're doing that and to quit doing it. Then it does to go out and make sure that you've
(39:35):
got women's swag as well. But there's a lot of little ways that I think men that are committed
to this and creative about it can think about what are ways that I can assume that the women
here are awesome contributing members. And let's start with that. And not that they're
necessarily in a support role. And the thing that's tough for me right there is that there's
a lot of amazing women in support roles. So I don't mean to be dismissive and say that
(39:57):
that's not a good thing or that the women that are doing it are contributing a lot because
they are. But I don't want to be mistaken for a secretary because I run this company.
And so having people say things like, can you make the copies? I'm like, no, I'll go
call somebody. So there's just little pieces, which again, is another place that women can
help underline it by politely declining to do things that are not part of their actual
(40:17):
job role at the moment. So there's a lot of little subtleties like that that I think we've
got a long way to go.
That's great. Back to the theme of this is your home versus your guest in this home.
And you belong here in the seat that you have.
Well, Mary, this has been a great conversation. Again, I can't thank you enough for taking
the time to do this and for getting up so early to do this out in California. Maybe
(40:37):
we'd like to end with the question of just what advice would you go back and give your
early career self?
If I were going back and giving my early career self some advice, I think part of it would
be don't take yourself too seriously. I have some good self respect, but don't get too wrapped
around the axle. I think the most important things that happen in our industry is that
we do outstanding work. We're paid well. I'd say one thing that's terrific about our industry
(41:02):
is that women are paid about 93% of what men are paid. And nationally, that's about 83%.
So women in construction make more money relative to men than almost any other industry there
is. So women are paid well in this line of work. So saying we do outstanding work and
we get paid well and we have the opportunity to do incredible stuff. And so some of these
things really need to be tackled, but they're also not the end of the world. So let's figure
(41:25):
it out. And let's find people that share that same attitude and focus on the things that
are super important and let the little things go. So I think I'd probably do that. And then
two is that my career has benefited immensely from having great mentors. And so I'm lucky
to work for my uncle who cares a ton about me personally, as well as my career. And also
before that, even when I didn't work at a family business, finding people who supported
(41:48):
my career and who thought highly of my capabilities was something that really made not only my
work life more fun, but also helped me understand what are opportunities I should take and where's
places that I should raise my hand. Because I think probably all young people and particularly
young women don't always think of raising their hand and saying, Hey, I'd like to do
this and I'd like to take that next thing on. And having a mentor or advisor that will
(42:10):
do that for you is something that I think everyone should seek out. And I feel super
lucky to have had them. So I'd say not take yourself too seriously and find people who
support you in your career and take their advice.
That's great. That's probably a great place to end the conversation. Mary, again, thank
you so much for doing this. Always great to see you and really appreciate it.
Thank you, Scott.
As always, thank you for listening. And please don't forget to like or subscribe to the
(42:31):
podcast so you don't miss another episode.
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