PumpFun plans token, ETH leads again, Trumps deny wallet

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
What up, What up? What up?
Good morning, Good morning. GMG Third Wednesday, Wednesday,
Wednesday, May 4th June 4th June4th June 4th, 2025.

(00:23):
Look at that. Another beautiful day and I have
a beautiful day. I go back coast in the house.
Tyler, Tyler, Tyler, Tyler. Good morning.
Hey, don't they? I'm good.
We thought maybe summertime might be slowing down a little
bit in the in the crypto streets.
Pump Fun says no. No.
We're going to be busy, it's going to be a busy couple weeks,
so it's good a lot to talk about.

(00:45):
Pump fun Trump versus magic Eden, OH.
Yes, I already forgot about that.
Like the news cycles move so fast.
Magic Eden knows Allen a couple beers for for taking some of the
spotlight off of what looks to have been.
Hey, we have a lot to talk about.
You're wearing the far coin hat.I mean, that was what I did.

(01:05):
Yeah. God damn.
So there's that. Like the memes.
There's a lot to talk about today.
So anyways, sit on the show. We'll talk about all that Pump
fun. Did what?
That's the topic of the show. So we'll talk about Pump Fun and
what's going on. Curious about some takes here.
And then I we're going to talk about we'll talk about Tyler's

(01:29):
top 100, which there's a lot of topics.
We'll then also be joined by Jason Atkins from Oros, very
good friend of mine and one of our partners.
So we'll can't wait to talk to him about all things, you know,
market making in the markets, etcetera.
Actually, some of us extremely great insight and this finger on
the pulse in the market, probably one of the people I
know that has the closest fingeron the pulse to the market in

(01:50):
crypto. So really curious to see Jason
and what he thinks overall. Then today we're bringing back
the eat giveaway. You know, guys, we weren't going
to do a eat giveaway yesterday with you a little bit.
OK, so so cut me some slack here, but I had to we had to
make the call with sins before the show, but so we'll do 3 on
Friday, but that means do 1 today, one Thursday and three on
Fartcoin Friday with Spencer, who will be joining us.

(02:11):
Spencer Ventures or cap gains totalk about moon bears on Friday.
So that'll be exciting. And then last but not least,
this show is powered by wild Connect.
Wild Connect is the connectivitynetwork shaping the future of
all chain UX. If you've connected to Web 3
app, you've seen while I connectthat to the logo.
It's everywhere and not going totrust in crypto as recognizable
as visa at checkout. Want to learn more?
Follow while I connect on X and Telegram Tuesday ahead of what's

(02:31):
next. Tyler it looks like you're going
to tell me what's next day baby four daily NFT and crypto
analysis Tyler T on FOMO our cause the kids.
Can yeah, looking at markets here, a little bit weak today.
Bitcoin down percent one O 4/4. Ethereum was outperforming.

(02:55):
It still is slightly down .6 percent. 2600 sold down 3%,
lagging a bit at 1:55. We had unit swap and Abe top alt
movers on the morning. As we look across some of the
other lines, the Ethereum ETFs are on fire.
Another $100 million in infos yesterday, 12 straight green
sessions. So the ETF buyers are piling

(03:16):
under. We had Trump Media file for a
spot Bitcoin ETF with the SEC aiming to launch the Truth
Social Bitcoin ETF that is in partnership with crypto.com in
Yorkville America Digital. Other trump news controversial
on the day so magic Eden announced that it had
collaborated with the trump memecoin team to launch a trump

(03:37):
branded crypto wallet and trading act powered by
slingshot. Though the Trump family, the
sons Donald, junior, Eric quickly came out and denied any
connection to the product and warn them to be very careful.
So that is still developing. We had consensus CEO Joe Lubin
on FOMO hour yesterday and he dropped some alpha, perhaps some

(04:00):
news that a major sovereign wealth fund from a very big
country is considering building on Ethereum.
So that's going to be a huge headline to watch.
We had SEC Chair Paul Atkins saythat it's a new day for the SEC
and that he's prioritizing a rational.
Always good to hear. That what are you saying?

(04:23):
Sorry, it cuts for two seconds. SEC Chair Paul Atkins calling it
a new day for the SEC prioritizing A rational
regulatory framework. So always good to hear that in
corporate treasury news, these headlines keep coming.
NASDAQ listed Ed tech firm classover is going to form a Solana
Treasury. They already purchased $1
million worth. We had Solar Bank, an energy

(04:44):
company announced a Bitcoin treasury and then breaking
before the show, this Chinese firm we bus, we bus raising $300
million for an XRP treasury. So sole Bitcoin and XRP.
Now if we get down to token air dropping protocol news pump
font, arguably the biggest storyof the day, reportedly plans to
raise $1 billion in a token saleat a $4 billion valuation.

(05:09):
No word on a potential air drop.So that was somewhat
controversial as well. Rec drinks sold out 180,000
drink fastest sell out to date. You love to see that.
And also just a quick notice forthose who who didn't meant you
have until June 6th to burn those for those rewards and
cases. So the clock is ticking.

(05:29):
Kaido that is live on Instagram and TikTok.
It's socials at least and then teased at their algo should be
coming there in the near future as well.
They also started an injective campaign.
Remember this out AI pretty muchchopped on the day the leaders
were were red. Meme coin leaders are red as
well across chains. So Solana memes took a hit in

(05:51):
the wake of the pump fun token news.
But it wasn't just Solana, the ETH memes were down as well.
So this is a broader meme coin sell off.
We saw clad A notable mover in the Believe app Eco up another
60%, 24,000,000 and NFTS. Let's see, Clanosaurus was the
big headline of the day. They ended up minting 97,000 of

(06:11):
these Popkins packs. They raised $19 million.
Well, they sold in total $19 million there.
There is a refund component of this.
Effectively, if you got a pack that does not have this Popkins
in it, you get your money back. So that that led to the the the
high number, but still a huge sale.
So how many Popkins are in there?
25,000, I believe, OK. Got it.

(06:34):
So it seems like 3/4 of this is going to get refunded.
So closer to 5 million, but still pretty massive demand.
Got it. OK.
Love, love to see that. There's a lot to talk about,
that's for sure is quickly. Mando, good morning.
Good morning, good morning. How you doing today?
Good morning, guys. How are you?

(06:56):
Fantastic, we're good, we're good reviving, you know, despite
some some troubled markets, but we're good, you know, just we're
just we're just running through it met Tyler was running through
topics of the day. But I'll go to you real quick
before I go back to Tyler, because I definitely want to
talk about pump font and I want to talk because that's bad news.
And I would you know, I definitely want to take hear

(07:16):
both your takes and your opinions, because Tyler, you
have some stronger opinions about that one.
I've been reading your texts andI've been reading your tweets,
so I know you got some good opinions on the on the pump font
consensus or non consensus trader.
And and and I do want to go overthe magic eating and Trump shit
because that's funny. That's actually funny as fuck.
I shouldn't be laughing, but I thought it was funny.

(07:38):
This is this space is hilarious.But quickly Mando, anything on
the market that we need to pay attention to?
Or is it just all related to pump fun and we may as well just
go there? No, there's been some tariff
headlines. So we just sold off over the
last hour or so because Mexico came out, came out and said
they're going to retaliate to the steel and aluminium tariffs
coming out from the US. So I think there's like a, an

(08:02):
idea that we could see a bit of a rise in let's say short term
tariff headlines and that's going to drag this a little bit
lower the markets. Other than that, the broader
macro market feels OK. We had like an OK jobs figure
yesterday. Stocks, stocks have been fine.
So nothing there. I, I wouldn't just tie this to
punk farm either. Like I think this is just the

(08:22):
general chop period here. I don't think this is necessary.
It's like pump fun causing this.Bitcoins barely moved right over
the last few seconds. It's it's like a one O 5K
basically the whole time. I think we just we just create
the narratives. As for my take on the pump fun

(08:42):
stuff, like there was a good tweet I saw on the on the
timeline maybe a few hours ago, which was like people who come
who were tweeting to get 500 bucks of Laudio are complaining
because pump farm wants to raisea billion dollars.
Like I think part of it is just like a Oh my God that they're

(09:03):
extracting from the, from the ecosystem.
It's it's terrible. Like it's revenue, man.
Like it is revenue at the same time, like they, they create a
very, very profitable business. And arguably that seems kind of
Fair value, like 4-4 billion. Kaito is 2 right?

(09:23):
So pump fun I think makes materially more than them.
Yeah, 10 access exactly. Right.
So like, I don't think it's eventhat that that expensive.
So I think people are just like they just look at they look at
it on a relative basis, like, Ohmy God, these people have made
so much money from you and now they're doing the but I don't

(09:48):
think that that has not been a areal difference.
If the token does come, it couldeasily come much go.
Much harder than that in my opinion.
So so let's go there, right, because market wise, whatever,
not unchanged, like more on the downside, but still like
whatever, like bitcoins around hovering over one O 5K and it's
been very choppy. Memes got absolutely decimated
yesterday. I mean that far coin date was

(10:09):
fucking crazy. You know, it's like punk fun
news came out and everybody decided to sell far coin but me.
But the record show and Tyler and Mandel bought some per his
tweet. And Tyler has his fart coin hat
on because hot air rises. But it was interesting.
So Tyler, run us through the news 1st and then let's discuss
it because I there's a lot of takes on the timeline.

(10:30):
Some I want to share, some I don't really care to share, but
I'm curious to hear what you guys genuinely think here.
So Tyler, take us through, run us through the what happened
last night. Yeah.
So Blockworks is reporting that Pump Fun is kind of shopping
around, planning this $1 billiontoken sale that would value
their protocol at $4 billion. We don't have any official

(10:52):
details from the Pump Fund team.A part of their announcement
from Blockworks says there will be both a private and public
component to the sale. We don't know the ratio there.
We had folks like Cyrus tweetingagain, this is rumor, but it it
was somewhat in line. He said that he was kind of DN
some details about this potential token launch a few

(11:13):
weeks ago, 1 billion raised at a4 billion valuation.
That was correct, at least from what Blockworks is reporting.
He's saying 25 revenue used for buybacks, 100% unlocked day one
team investors on a 12 month Cliff AirDrop to users, but
wouldn't be on day one. So that's all rumor mail.
Separate that from the concrete news.
The concrete news is just the token sale and the public and

(11:34):
private investor component of this.
So we don't know a whole lot. And I think based on the news
that we have, it's hard to really, for me, draw a whole lot
of conclusions about what this means for the trenches, for the
broader mean point ecosystem because there's still so many
unknowns. Is there going to be an AirDrop
or not? Are they going to actually use

(11:55):
buybacks to drive up the Toker price?
I think those two components have huge swings and potential
outcomes for this one. I have a lot of thoughts.
There's a lot of directions we can go.
I think First off it's hard to get too caught up in what the
majority of of CT says but man we have the most viral apps

(12:15):
created in crypto this entire cycle on the most successful and
the the majority is complaining about them doing a token launch
which is. Just everyone is just
hilariously broke for, for Bitcoin at this level that
that's generally my take away. I feel like that is what is the,

(12:36):
the annoyance about this. It's like we're still stuck in
the trenches, like trying to play these games.
And now they're even extracting another billion.
I think that's basically what this is.
And like Bitcoin is $105,000. I'm going to say that how, how
long have we been doing that? This fucking show?
To Bitcoin. At $105,000 we.

(12:58):
But nobody owns Bitcoin though, right?
Like that, That that argument isright, Mando, but no one has
Bitcoin, Mando. Like I get maybe you should own
Bitcoin. No, I get that.
I get you're right, you're right, like your argument is
right. I'm just saying our listeners.
No, but like maybe we should my.Closure to Bitcoin are are
Bitcoin puppets and and maybe. We should be focusing on the
idea that people should be owning a bit more of that stuff.

(13:21):
You know what I mean? POPO to the fans, the to the
credits. Sorry, PO is like hardcore.
It's just memes, right? If you're playing the meme meme
coins. I, I made this point on, on, on
B check show the other day, which is if you, if you look,

(13:44):
because obviously I run a casino, right?
Or we, yes, you look at RTP of the games you can look at and,
and we have a 1% house edge on, on a vast majority of Summer
Games and some black slip games.It's like 99 1/2%.
That means out of 100 spins, we will win 49 1/2 and you will win
50 1/2. Sorry, we will win 50 1/2.
You will win 49 1/2. Pump fun as a casino, I think

(14:09):
has much worse RTP than that forthe vast majority of people.
They've made a billion. The trading box have made a
billion I don't know how much radium and meteor have made, but
I would guess it's it's in the realm of 500 million to a
billion and then you you got to think insiders have got the vast
majority of of that. So I don't know how much are all
pump fun coins worth together. Can we work that out?

(14:31):
Pump fun four and. 1/2 billion 4. 1/2 billion 5.
Billion pump fun market coin market cap pump fun coins market
cap. How do you know that?
Coin Gecko. Coin Gecko has it, so 3.7
billion, OK. And I just said roughly 3
billion of that is already gone in fees, OK.

(14:53):
And now you've got to think thatonly one of those is really
listed on centralized exchanges,which is far coin right, only
really one and I think peanut istoo.
And and other than that it's like 1 to 2% liquidity pool.
So with 3.7 billion, you've probably got about 100 to 200
million of liquidity to actuallyget out right Max.

(15:14):
These are not easy games to win is basically what I'm trying to
pitch for people right? Like so if you are sitting there
annoyed at suddenly pump fun doing a token like you've just
missed the point of pump fun. It is a casino.
It is a casino and the and the and the RTPS are are wildly bad.

(15:37):
If you look at the number of wallets which make money
consistently trading pump fun islike 1 percent 2% I think I
think in the last month only there was something like only 5
bullets have made more than 10 Ki.
Just like what I'm saying about this is that you have to be very
honest with the odds. And I think people get

(15:57):
misconstrued with the odds here,like the odds are massively
stacked against your favorite. If you're, if you're, if you're
playing these games, you can getthe 100 X, you can get the
10,000 X, but actually you're, you're kind of betting at a, at
a casino. And if you have your whole
portfolio in that, then it's a, it's a real worry.
I I yeah, I agree. I don't think a lot of people

(16:19):
have their whole portfolio and the Pom Funk casino, I would
think they have it in memes. Do you consider having a
portfolio in like the larger memes having your portfolio in
the casino? Honest question.
I'm talking about like doge Pepemog, not not even mog, sorry.
I think. I think coins above a billion.
Sorry. More established memes you can
maybe like there's been value creation, but pump fun itself as

(16:40):
an ecosystem and and maybe Solana mean coins, maybe as a
broader extension, but particularly pump fun that I
just went through the numbers there, right, Like about 3.7
billion of value created about maybe 2 1/2 three billion of
value already lost to fees. And then you got to assume which
of those wallets have actually made the money and can you

(17:02):
monetize it? Like Pepe has unbelievable
liquidity, like unbelievable even does actually very, very
liquid liquidity and it's listedon every centralized exchange as
does Doge. I think you've got to just
consider the the casino that you've been playing at here a
little bit. And and if you, if you, if you

(17:24):
have been seeing it as that and like, yeah, we can make money
and it's 1000 X and it's a Ponzithat we all get into earlier
than fine. But like if you're now sitting
claiming that punk funds bring out a coin, like they just have
created the best RTP situation for themselves.
And and yeah, like, people are going to continue to play at
that casino then, then cool. Yeah, fair.

(17:46):
That's very fair. 10,000 X drag Where else are you going to get?
I mean that was the whole story of the cycle right?
Like I see obese made a post, but Stolongo Tyler was like, yo,
like the same people saying, Oh,everybody's complaining you
don't have enough big corners. The same people that were
pushing the daily runner and thethe hyper rotation this cycle
narrative, Like if you don't hyper rotate, you're going to
miss out. And now we're asking people we

(18:07):
not us, but like we the people are asking others like, yo, why
don't you know this one is because you guys were promoting
the hyper rotation of tokens allcycle long.
And actually K money does defense.
It's his credit. Sorry, no defense.
He was the one thing that would believe in something because you
know, these guys, these markers are like really crazy, like the
the the the rebranding of shit coins to daily runner is going

(18:32):
to hyper speed this industry to zero.
And looks like he was right. Tyler, you have been voicing on
the timeline and behind the scenes how you don't see this as
bearish memes, like stole memes and stole itself because
consensus has that. So what, what do you think of
that? Because that was the first take
of most people. I tend to agree with you
actually because I like to maybetake non consensus trades.

(18:54):
So what what do you what does that mean?
Like what's your take here? Like what do you think?
And my, my first gut reaction, it was kind of in line with
everyone's like, this is going to be a big liquidity suck
because it's a top sign. Like we all have PTSD from the
other side meant NFTS 2022, which was not obvious in the
moment, but was more of an obvious top sign in hindsight.
And then these Rams pull out and, and like 75% of respondents

(19:18):
said this is bearish for, for soul and soul meme eco.
So I saw at that time like how broadly consensus it was, which
made me kind of second guess my initial reaction.
So I think I think there's stillthere's still some open details
that we need to be confirmed on all this.
But I think there's a lot, I mean, you know, if there's going

(19:40):
to be an air drop or not, I think that's going to be a a
huge factor in this. I think there's also a component
of who where is the liquidity coming from, from the pump token
sale? Like is it actually the trench
warriors or is it institutions? Is it is it whales with deeper
wallets, money that would not have entered the trenches
anyway? And my gut is likely that cohort

(20:03):
who was going to drive a majority of the pump fund token
by pressure. And if that's the case, you can
make an argument that it's more bullish.
For the eco, especially if it comes if you get positive price
action and an air drop, then that becomes a much more bullish
setup for the Solana meme ecosystem.
So I think that's one component.The second I, I think there's a

(20:25):
lot of people who are saying memes are done.
The meme cycle is over. It's topped already.
I don't, I don't know if I can get there.
I feel like it's like saying that sports gambling is over.
Like I think people want to do this now.
It doesn't mean that the IT doesn't mean that we're going to
continue in the same way that we've been doing.
Like maybe we won't have the thememe runner of the day in this

(20:46):
hyper rotation. Maybe it'll be more of a
rotation back to some of the themore stronger community tokens.
I'm not sure exactly how it's going to move forward.
I don't think we're going to seea total utter collapse of the
meme coin ecosystem overall as aresult of this.
But I'm still working through mythoughts.
And I do think if, if, if pump pump comes out and confirms the

(21:06):
details and say there is no AirDrop, we're just going to do
this. And they're, and they're not
going to do any buybacks. I think they're going to face a
lot of backlash. And there's there's certainly no
shortage of competitors right now.
And if they face a lot of backlash, maybe pump fun has
topped. So, so we'll see.
But which is why I don't think they'll do that.
I think they will reward the users in some capacity.

(21:29):
They see the success hype is having with the buybacks.
And of course, they they don't necessarily have to do that, but
to me, I could you, you can run the scenarios.
I feel like the upside that you would create with the token has
to end this broader positive community sentiment would have
to outweigh, you know, you giving up that portion of
income. So that's where I'm at.

(21:52):
They'll do buy backs. They'll do buy backs.
I've heard rumors that they havetaken that they've taken off,
taken out so much money that they have been like debanked.
Yeah, those are not rumors. This is true because I've heard
the same thing and I know someone happened they have made.
So much money that they've missed you.
Back well, it's normal right? They live in the UK right?
And they the UK, they're maybe fuck with people making money.

(22:15):
So maybe token is the best way to do this.
Just plant a token, then token. They sell the token and that's a
better way of. Yeah.
Of monetizing the money. So there's some takes on the
timeline. You got Andy saying universe
where pump fund launched with 1 billion raised is actually
bullish for memes. Raises mostly filled with funds.
People without meme coin exposure.
OK no big liquidity stock from Unchained pump fund then does an

(22:38):
eye drop to users who get new liquidity like funded by the
bid. But then you have spider who
goes pump fund knows memes are dying hence the token launch.
At the end of the day it's just harder and harder for people to
justify pushing 100K plus into meme coins wise.
Which is why Internet capital markets is a refreshing
narrative. Some of these coins can justify
it if their flyways are good enough.
Can't help but feel that I want to expose myself that sense to

(23:00):
meme coins. It's kind of like opposite takes
here. Personally speaking, I don't
really understand the take of like this.
Another trump moment. Remember when trump coin came
and everything kind of dumped? As a matter of fact, far coin
went to all time high last time there was a Trump coin and the
opposite happened yesterday. So we had an immediate sell off
aggressive of some of the top meme coins in Solana crypto.

(23:21):
UB was saying consensus is that Solana and Solana memes are dead
here. Would be funny if I tend to
agree with that. But also sometimes I'm wary of
being anti consensus because sometimes like hey, you're just
the last that Japanese soldier meme, right?
That's what Cyrus commented on my post yesterday.
That was funny. So what do you think here for
Solana's ecosystem and it's me, I mean?

(23:43):
Bring up every Solana meme coin.It's had a really good.
Round. I don't want to.
Well, Spark com was in in in March.
Spark COM was trading at 250. Yeah.
Trading at 400, right? Moodang was was at in in April
40 million, now 200. Like you're talking about big

(24:05):
moves across the board in prettymuch every single time.
It's not been a bad period here for Solan and meme coins.
I would be a bit more wary, likeI don't think this is what I
would say is firstly, pump fund has got a number of different
people who are invested in it, like a ton of different people
invested in it. And it was kind of already known
that this was they were doing this for the last month or so.

(24:26):
There's been rumors going aroundthat they were going to do this.
And a lot of people have been saying on the timeline, this is
a big worry for Solana because if they try to do their own
chain, well, this comes a littlequid.
You suck. So the part of what you have
seen probably over the last few couple of weeks, at least in
Solana meme coins has probably been this.
You know, you hear this headlinelike people, people see the

(24:49):
headline. They're like, Oh my God, I've
got to sell salon mean coins, I've got to sell Saul.
And actually that's kind of already happened.
Like it's probably been happening for the last two
weeks. You just didn't really know why.
So I think part of the move has probably happened.
But I do think that I'm just more bullish on ether.
I'm just more bullish on ether. I think Ethan's got a cleaner

(25:10):
narrative. We had Joe Lubin on yesterday.
It's not that I'm all bullish onactivity.
I actually think activity will stay and maybe even fee revenue
will stay with Salana. I, I, I don't think Ethan is at
that spot. What I'm bullish at for Ethan is
hopium and the treasury trade, which is basically what he is
now talking about the idea of companies coming in and building

(25:32):
up ETH treasuries that potentially we're going to get
youth staking as well for the ETF, which allows for even more
of this, of this ETH treasury trade.
And I, I think it's, you know, part of it is also just a
rebound from nobody owning it. You know, like even before we
went live asked does anyone know?
I don't, I don't think people even own it Like they, they hate

(25:54):
to own it. Like it's like it's like a
disease to own ETH versus owningan.
I have to say, after yesterday, you know Joe, Oh, fucking after
the show, I'll post a full interview because I really need
people to listen to it. Joe cooked.
Yeah. But like, think about how you
own soul. You're like, I own soul and I

(26:15):
quite like it. You know, you're an eating like,
Oh yeah, I don't know, maybe I should have Mog or maybe I
should have Pepe or Rag. Like you, just like you, you're
just told not to own it. And I think that is its strength
if it does pick up, because I still don't, I actually just
think it's not even owned, like it's as little owned by the
trenches right now as Bitcoin inmy opinion.

(26:36):
Like people do not own it. And I think that that if it, if
it builds any sort of a narrative, can be very, very
strong. Yeah, this is.
Yeah, Go ahead. OK.
Is this pump fun token going to be a buy at at 4 billion?

(27:00):
Are you guys, are you guys clearing up some funds to buy on
the gun or to buy on presale? It's, it's really difficult
because I think it's one of those classic things in D5 where
you like start analyzing like, Oh my God, like the buyback's
going to be insane. And pump fund revenues down 80%
in the last three months or fourmonths.
It's down a lot. And that's partly that's because

(27:20):
of other competitors and partly because the Solana casino has,
has, has slowed somewhat after Trump.
I don't know what the annualizedrevenue is on pump fund.
It's it's definitely very high, but it's probably in the low
hundreds of millions rather thanin the high hundreds of
1,000,000 I think. Last time a company raised at $4

(27:41):
billion and it was not SEO but it was Yuga Labs.
So you can't compare tokens, butyou can compare valuations I
believe. And Yuga Labs at the time was
making a fuck ton of money too in revenue.
Similar to pump font in terms oflike royalties etcetera.
But I hate comparing because there's such bad comparisons.
But the four billion, I don't know.

(28:03):
Are you guys buying at $4 billion?
I I would not buy but hyper liquid makes it look very cheap.
The thing is this is the hyper liquid member.
Looks very cheap as a chain. And I'm buying 2 billion.
Can look very expensive as an app, so pump fun if it's really
smart here. And what people are already
saying is they're actually pitching this as a chain and

(28:26):
it's going to be its own chain. And if that is going to be the
case, then you could be like, well, this could be valued close
to hyper liquid and with which there's like a really high
upside. And like maybe it does build out
the app ecosystem and you know, it goes down that route.
But if it's just an app, then yeah, probably, probably fair
values around that. I think I'm a buyer.

(28:48):
I, I, I'm just going to push back on the 80% reduction.
I've seen people, I think the, alot of the bears can kind of
point to that. It's like maybe it's down 80%
from the blow off Trump. Too weak tail, period.
But it's fun. Fun is still making a fuck ton
of money. I don't know what barricades
people are talking about. Yeah, I'm.
Making one one half million a day.
It's a great business. So what's that 500 million?

(29:10):
How much is radium making I? Think in line.
In line Yeah, I. Mean you got me.
I'm just looking at the term Artemis Terminal for how much
Radium's made. But like there are some clear
comps here, right? If it's just going to be an app,

(29:34):
and I think that is, that's worth considering basically.
It is. Can you hear me?
We can hear you now. I think radiums is not as sexy
of. Course it's going to.
Be a dumb thing to say. Dude pump phones make a ton of
money. Like I just don't.

(29:55):
Get the if they announce A buyback, I think it's a, it's a
double, I think even 2X at 4 billion.
That definitely do the buyback. For sure, that's the most easy
flywheel, top of my flywheel youcan come up with like buyback.
I'll be in the pre sale if they announce that and confirm it.
I think they will do it regardless, Tyler, but I see

(30:15):
what you mean. But yeah.
I won't be like shoving super hard but.
So let me ask you guys something.
Should I do pre sale Jamiriad? I mean, I'm looking at it like
that. Are you making $500 million a

(30:37):
year? Well.
We're doing $4 billion, dude, obviously.
I think everyone's looking like everyone, everyone this is, this
is just pocket watching there, isn't it?
It's like, Oh my God, maybe I should do that because they're
doing. I think it's very difficult.
I'm funny. You know what?
I. Mean, I mean this is going to be

(30:58):
like ICO season. Like yeah, you had the the Kobe
like solar sonar news, not all gold echo.
That was massive, massive like making ICO is pretty much legal
and now this and people want to tell me they're bearish crypto.
Like you have an ICO kind of season coming here.
Like a lot of people trying to compare this to like a double

(31:21):
top thing. The pump fund Trump was first.
The second one is this. Do you guys really feel that way
about this pump fund news? I I am I crazy not to think that
like I don't think pump funds thing is going to destroy the
market. Like why do people think that?
I have to say the thing that I, and I don't know if you would

(31:43):
agree with me, I never go on pump fun ever.
I haven't been since like Q4 or something.
I've never. As an app, for me, it's more
middleware, right? You're really trading on Flex
Proton, one of these trading bots that like actually make it

(32:04):
discernible for you to actually view.
Even the streaming content is not that good.
So like Pump Fun has made it very easy people to create
tokens, but like it, I don't think people like are hanging
out on Pump Fun. I don't know if I like not.
As much anymore. I don't know, maybe they are.
I mean, they're trying to get all these creators to make I.

(32:24):
Mean now. They don't have shows now, like
you have the the Gainesy show, you have Eddie's show.
They're bringing a bunch of originals.
They're going towards content. You're right.
I mean, I don't, I don't go on pump fun.
I never did really. I bought a bunch of shit coins
there. I'm trying to.
Use your. That's what I kind of mean.
Like Hyper Liquid is an app thatyou go on and you use, right?

(32:45):
I think pump fun you you could argue.
It's a protocol. As as yeah as like a very
democratized form of token creation.
Yeah, it is. It's a protocol like the aliens,
right? That's the beauty of it, though.
I don't go on the Radium and Jupiter often, but I'm still
interacting with the protocol. Interesting.
What do you go on? If you're if you're not using
radium or Jupiter, then I guess.You're using.

(33:06):
The the photon or. The photon Nova like, you know,
at least interesting something. Goes on on Jupiter quite a lot.
Yeah, I I mean, I only used your.
Better and and to be heard BLA like that is the criticism of
radium too, though, that it was middleware.
You know, that it was that it was that it was middleware for

(33:28):
other people. Fun, fun.
To me, science ecosystem feels very interdependent.
You know, it feels very much like it all works because the
other things all work together. Yeah, I don't know.
Anyways, that's interesting, as we'll see.
I do we do have Jason in the studio.
I'm going to bring him on to this conversation because this

(33:49):
what up, Jason, Hey. Fellas, how you doing?
How you doing? I knew you were going to do that
with my accent. You can't help yourself.
How you doing, mate? Hey, show us.
Show us the mullet. Oh.
It's getting pretty bad at the back.
Should I do 1? Yeah, party in the back.
Should I do 1? Sorry for offending all all your

(34:10):
all your viewers. It's my first first course of
action. Australian accent in a bad
haircut. Jason, I have a question for
you. Jason Atkins from Oros.
I mean, he runs the shit. He's the best, He's one of the
most smartest people I know in crypto.
We'll get to your interview within a few questions for you like
that we've prepped up. But Jason, what do you think of
this pump fun news like the market reacted in a certain way.

(34:32):
You've, you know, interacted with Solon and the ecosystem a
ton and you know it very well, more than most people actually.
What do you make of the pump fund use for the Solana
ecosystem and for the broader crypto here?
I mean, I was just in the waiting room listening to you
guys and Amanda, you're making some pretty good points that if
you're looking at, we got this temptation in crypto to like

(34:52):
value things on revenue or earnings of of the firm as soon
as we're trying to like work outcomparables.
Whereas if you look at somethinglike Hyper Liquid that's done so
well, it's not just because of the revenue, it's because of the
forward-looking outlook that they've explained about the
change. So to your point, is pump fun
just raising a billion dollars to like add, I don't know, a new

(35:13):
feature set to the UI or add newprotocols?
Are they going to be middleware for to your point, no, they're
not. That sort of money has left.
Like I think the the main thingswe're missing are we're getting
distracted by like the billion dollar raise at 4 million
valuation. Are they going to do a buy back
when in reality the question is like what are you doing with the
money? And that question is going to
answer whether you should participate in the pre sale.

(35:34):
I think the the buyback stuff like undoubtedly supply demand
dynamics, sure it increases yourlikelihood of being OK at 4
billion versus waiting for a dip.
But ultimately, can it go from 4billion to where's hyper liquid
now like 3536 billion? The difference between that,
it's almost like it's speculative on the
forward-looking outlook versus just a straight revenue

(35:55):
calculation. They earn this much per year,
therefore they'll do this buy back.
That really is like a single point of failure that's pretty
hard to sustain because to your point, if the revenues of pumped
up funds keep coming off or don't rebound in the way that
they thought, that valuation starts to become questioned
because it's not what it was at the peak.
There are less revenues. Can they reinvent themselves?

(36:16):
So really, if the question I've got is like, what are you going
to do with a billion dollars? And I think before they they run
the ICO, they're going to have to tell investors what the plan
is. Like you don't raise that sort
of money publicly or privately without like a data room and a
deck and some explanation of like what you're buying into.
Because if it's just I'm buying into buybacks, you're kind of
playing with like, when will themarket work out that this is

(36:39):
capped and it's capped on, is someone going to come along and
do what other NFC marketplaces did the open sea, right?
Like at its peak open sea you would have looked at and being
like, this is the thing, revenues, everything.
And then how quick does that go?So I think if you need it to be
something more for 4 billion to be sort of a good entry point,

(36:59):
you might get a short term sort of double up as you guys pointed
out. But yeah, I think hopefully
we've done a really good job of,of pulling liquidity and pulling
business in. But of course, 1 discernible
difference between what they've done and what pump the funds
doing is they've controlled every piece of the stack the
whole way. Like no, they say money, they
control liquidity on their product.
So like everything about controlhas led to like that initial

(37:23):
setup for the token to do what it did.
Now I think it's done more because of like again, before
looking up prospects and and revenues increasing and usage
increasing, but ultimately it's control like the tokens, very
similar to like if someone that launches the token restricts
supply quite a lot and controls everything and that would like

(37:43):
make the price go higher. It's like that doesn't
necessarily mean it's worth whatit's worth, but that control
aspect is, is pretty valuable. And I think it's a pretty big
difference between what pumped off fund has got and what hyper
liquid's got. I think liquidity for the pumped
off fund token is going to be essential because guys like you
guys that may buy into the pre sell aren't going to hold if
this thing's whipping around super quick constantly on very,

(38:05):
very light fumes. I mean, you know, you know, how
about trends? Will hold on to pump farm coin
at $4 billion, but. Actually, I mean the actual the
best thesis I've heard. We had this chat internally
today. This is actually kind of an
interesting theory is that a lotof the firms during the meme
cycle that wanted to participatein the trenches but just didn't

(38:26):
a have the expertise or remit todo so are looking for exposure
to memes And like maybe a singlepoint of like basket trading
pump fund as the token. Because if main main cycle kicks
off again and no one else comes and competes with pump dot fund,
let's assume they stay as the incumbent market leader, then
pump dot fund token will go up. And that's like exposure to

(38:47):
every meme that will launch without you having to, to your
point pilot sit there and and look at the UI and, and like
grimace at how painful it is to even work out what's listing and
and who's listing it. Why?
What if pump fund? Makes sense.
Maybe that exposure helps. Pump fund, make fart corn
reserve. I thought Tyler told you about
that? I was like, what if they're

(39:08):
going to buy? That you need the you need the
fart coin Treasury strategy. No one's done that yet.
That's exactly exactly. That's like the trendy thing to
do at the moment. Reverse back on the onto
something on the New York Stock Exchange, then use the assets to
back buying something. Why not fart Coin?
So that's a good question and I want to get to interviewing you.
But like Ayadra says, isn't thatwhat the Solana token is for?

(39:31):
Exposure to the meme coin casino.
I would probably say you asked Solana that they would say let's
we're we're a little bit more than that.
But yeah, I mean, that's what drove the last cycle.
It drove it last month, dropped to midpoint.
Pump fun, right? Pump Fun makes more money with
which is so if you're just trying to is.
Pump chain really happening likeL1?

(39:54):
What else do you do with a billion dollars in crypto?
Yeah, but what also do you need a billion dollars to do a chain?
They need it for the evaluation like.
A billion dollars is a lot of money.
You're going to try and call yourself as hyper liquid.
You need to chain and I. Think to sponsor our show.
I think, didn't they reach out? I remember hearing about that

(40:17):
some. Somehow they reached out to
rhetoric. Yeah, dude.
We got to get them. We're about to relocate the show
on Monday somewhere. Fucking stream on Pump Fun.
Yo, Alan, I, Alan, my, my kids are going to be Jewish.
We got to got to work together, you know?
Come on, that's a hard appeal topass.

(40:38):
Yeah, exactly. Why do you think I'm with
Vanessa? I I'm trying to join the tribe
friends. Are serious, man, no.
No, no, I'm I'm marrying one. OK, I, I this is how OK Anyways,
OK, before we get cancelled on here, so I don't know we'll see
what happens with pump font yadda yadda yadda.

(40:59):
Look, we'll talk about the wholemagic Eden and something.
What your point Jason, what you said about the reverse back
stuff that we were, we had Joe Lubin on here yesterday like
obviously he's done. That, yeah, I saw.
Yeah, we pushed. We pushed Jason for Joe
yesterday. Yeah, I got, I got kicked off
the show though, as you were saying, Amanda, no one holds 8.
I have, I have some holdings left.

(41:20):
I've I've weathered the storm a little bit and I was happy I was
replaced by Joe Lubin. Yes, I was like, sorry Jason
last minute got Joe on. Do you mind coming on Wednesday?
But you know what it is? It's Trump, CZ Joe and then
Jason up Only you know. Yeah.
Only getting to bed every time. Companies that have announced

(41:41):
they're going to do this reverseback and that have mooned have
been the Bitcoin ones, sole strategies I think.
And then now this ETH Sharp Linkfirm, I'm pretty sure somebody
announced they did it with DOGE and their stock went down like
40% and I think I wasn't. Kidding about far Coin.
No, but like somebody should do that, right?

(42:02):
Surely they should do that with DOGE, right?
Like that does feel like the sort of thing that maybe DOGE is
the only asset in crypto which has actually outperformed
Bitcoin. It's the only asset.
Oh, since since it's since it's like over the last, I think it's
5410 years, whatever how long it's been around.
And yeah, I think those. Those have got Tesla, like Elon
at some point, or SpaceX is going to announce that they're

(42:24):
going to hold their treasury in DOGE.
So maybe why didn't Jeremy dump though on the back of the
Bitcoin buys? Mixed, yeah.
They're done again, Mixed. Yeah, they're choppy.
Choppy. OK.
I think those is the next. I think you're right.
But I think it's like there's a difference between like I'm
going to hold my treasury in Bitcoin and there's I'm going to

(42:45):
run the micro strategy playbook of like issuing debt and equity
to buy more and more and more onthis like infinite money printed
glitch. I think like a company that has
a slightly irrelevant business model, GameStop is like a meme
at this at this point to then goand like deploy assets into
another. It's kind of feels like why
would not just buy Bitcoin at that point?

(43:07):
Whereas Microstrategy's got thislike flywheel effect thing going
that everyone else to try to replicate.
So slightly slightly different like mechanics on it, but.
So yeah, there's a lot. Jason, we need to have you more.
I want to ask you some questionshere, but we need to why don't
we do the you know, we got to talk more markets with you on
the show. You, you know, you're shit.
I like that. You know these guys.

(43:30):
We well, let's get into who you are and what you guys do at
oros, because, you know, we talkabout market makers a lot on the
show. Obviously we talk about winter
nuke the most, but you know whenthe token dumps, you know when a
new sensitive regards, but but when a token pumps, you know,
you know we we, we, we definitely don't give them the
credit. I haven't heard that.

(43:51):
I haven't heard that nickname before.
That's not a bad one. Winter, Duke.
It's. The first time you've heard.
That I'm playing though, I, I like the folks there.
I got some homies obviously out there and, and, and, and
they're, there's some of the best ones.
But Jason, you know, you guys, Otros, of course, we've, we've
hosted some events together. We recently hosted the Dubai
token 2049 event. You sponsor a ton of our events,
you know, you're partnering withus in many ways, which I can't

(44:13):
talk about just yet on the myriad level, but soon.
I can't wait. But why don't you just give
yourself a brief intro and you know what Auris does?
Yeah, cool. We do a little bit more than
just sponsor events with Farooq and the rug radio thing.
But so we're a market maker. Auris is a global high frequency
trading firm. So we've started about 6-7 years

(44:34):
ago now as a, as a group of traders, technologists that
we're just building out systems to trade across crypto markets.
At the time, really inefficient crypto markets and mostly C5 at
that point. Yes, we spent sort of the first
three years building out that tech stack and ended up becoming
one of the largest trading firmsin the world when it comes to
the volumes that we put through markets, primarily at its

(44:55):
genesis through centralized venues.
But increasingly over the last few years, as D5 sort of started
to reach that feature parity, feature parity area and, and
start to deliver on the ability of for us to be capitally
efficient and provide our liquidity on chain.
We've started to do that more and more.
And we were just talking about hyper liquid is a venue that
we're we're pretty familiar with.
We've done, I believe, the largest amount of volume all

(45:18):
time on that, on that exchange itself on the leaderboard, which
people can take a look at. We trade on the venue.
There's a lot of activity there.And it's, it's one of the venues
that we use alongside some of our centralized and other
decentralized platforms. So my my role at the company is
on the commercial side of the business, So less on the trading
side of things. I sit with the head of trading
in Hong Kong and trading teams there.

(45:40):
My job is to work around how we can repurpose our ability to
understand markets, provide liquidity, which is sort of what
happens when we trade anyway in the size we do.
How do we do that for external partners?
So really working with token projects right from the early
stage, we venture invest at likepre seed and seed rounds, and
then we start to work with the team to build relations ships as

(46:01):
they approach the need for a token.
And now as a token market maker,I shouldn't say this, but not
everyone needs a token. But for those that do, they
start to look into like, how do I create the best like garden
for success? And when you're talking about
like pump fun and, and where canit go 4 billion higher or lower,
you're really discussing the granular metrics or things that

(46:23):
would go into like building thatflywheel or setting up that
recipe for success. And that might be token buybacks
or it might be like best in class liquidity in the books.
When you work with like a firm like Oris, we're not directional
as such. So like the pumped up on going
up or down view doesn't really matter to us.
What we're doing is acting as sort of volatility compressors.
We're providing bids and offers into the books at all times to

(46:47):
reduce that excessive volatilitythat can really make it hard for
people to hold early stage tokens in particular, everything
right out the curve to to smaller FTV projects, 50 million
and around that region and then right up through to the multi
billions of dollars of launches.We're pretty comfortable doing
that stuff because we do it for ourselves just in in larger cap

(47:09):
tokens where there's like an economic reason to do so.
That's kind of a quick overview.I'm based in Hong Kong.
We have 133 people globally now.We just opened an office in New
York. Yeah, I think like that's fairly
lean for sort of what we do in the space.
But yeah, we've got to just openan office in New York where
we're going to have a bunch of venture guys, commercial facing

(47:32):
people, researchers. So primarily like a hub to make
sure that we have more exposure to that market as as the
landscapes changed in the US AndI'm happy to talk about it, our
views on that as well. But yeah, sorry that was longer
than expected, but really excited to be here and and
thanks for having me on guys. No, this is sick.
Well, 130 people. I was not aware of that.
That grew really fast. Question for you because you
said, you know, not everyone needs a token and that you help

(47:54):
a lot of these companies, though.
However, and we talk about market makers a lot in the
space. I feel like market makers have
grown to have this like more negative connotation now in the
space, right, Tyler Mando, when I think about the most because
of the meme coins in general, which is why the joke, right?
Like winter mutants in regards or DWF, whatever.
But what's up, Mando? Yeah, I think it's a

(48:15):
misunderstanding of them. Like a.
Lot of these are. You are you Zora's delta neutral
for a large group of business, yeah.
That's the thing there's. There's a couple of things.
I think, like Mandy, you said, misunderstanding is probably the
best way to put it. It's like.
People's. Crypto Twitter is fast.
It moves at 160 characters longer now, but like it has that
like short attention span. So surface level is as deep as

(48:36):
they get and like people come tous and they go like market
making is this and they bundle 50 different activities into it
and they bundle up all market makers no matter how they
operate or what they do. And it's all bad when I would
say even if you get out of crypto and look in traditional
markets, having a market maker there means that like people
don't pay brokerage on Robin Hood, for example, like and

(48:57):
everyone likes that. I don't want to pay brokerage on
equity trades on Robin Hood, butI don't want Citadel to make
money off my flow. You can't have both things.
They make money off your flow byproviding you the very liquidity
with which you trade for free. So like my first question to
anyone is like market making bad, let's get rid of them from
the space is like, do you even understand how bad the spreads
and liquidity would get? You think what happened when

(49:19):
Trump launched A token and everything got sucked out?
You talk talk about that across the space.
So I think like getting deeper into the understanding of what
differences are between what delta neutral market making.
Mando, you've obviously understand this already, but
what delta neutral market makingis where we don't take
directional views on, on projects.
We really are just providing bids and offers, being the buyer

(49:40):
of last resort and the seller oflast resort to make sure that
there's not that excessive volatility.
Well, I think, I think what people see is they see X sold to
win to me or X sold to this market.
Yeah. Exactly.
They think that that, that that market maker is being
directional. Often like this is just a broad

(50:02):
brush, but like often when the market maker has a
disproportionate amount of the supply, it's been sold to them
by the team or insiders and theyhave been hedged it with a, with
a perp or some other way of maybe a broader hedge across the
market. And I think often what they look
at then it's like, Oh my God, like ex market maker has this

(50:24):
much of A coin and it's gone down.
And actually what they should have seen that as is insiders
sold to a market maker at a price who then hedged themselves
with some sort of. What what this goes back to my
point. You've, you've like group games.
What the transaction you're saw you're talking about, that's
like an OTC transaction to sell the tokens.
We actually, when we're working with a project, we get loaned

(50:48):
the tokens. So the transaction you see of
tokens arriving in our wallet isa returnable loan.
It's not a, it's not a grant, it's not a purchase.
We don't actually send the moneyat the time.
What we sign up to do, and this is what we did when we got into
the space was we guarantee that we'll provide the liquidity
without those tokens you've loaned us for the period of
12/18/24 months, whatever the mandate's for.

(51:11):
And then we have a, we have an option over the top to buy those
tokens off the project at a price premium that's at the end
of the mandate. That's like if I fail halfway
through, like Oris, I think pioneered in the space, this
thing sounds crazy, but like contractual obligations, like
saying what you're going to do, put it in a contract and then if

(51:31):
you breach it, the contracts ended and you get punished for
it, which sounds insane to people from the real world where
that's how it works everywhere. But in crypto, a lot of the time
it was like give a bunch of the supply, to your point, a lot of
the supply to a market maker andhope they're going to do the
right thing. I'm not of the belief that any
project should hope that we do the right thing.
They should understand our incentives, construct deals

(51:54):
that, you know, the structures that we use that make us do the
job. If you don't get best in class
liquidity from Auris for the whole entire term of the
mandate, we don't get paid. It's that simple.
And that's how that's how it should be.
And we, we sort of stand by thatand, and we, we like to raise
the bar, but that makes it hard for competitors, right?
Because if they can't do technologically what we can do

(52:16):
when it comes to trading, it's very expensive, very quick, but
that's kind of where we see our Moat.
We commit to doing what we say we're going to do.
We put it in the contract, we guarantee it.
And if we don't do it, there's economic punishment for us, and
then we put up bigger numbers than other people that make it
hard for others to keep up how we approach the space.
But the. Reason why you're like #1 trader

(52:37):
on Hyper Liquid is because you do a lot of this hedging sort of
stuff, which is like what peoplecan do, right?
We've seen that with Athena or we even spoke about the other
day for when we had the show, Wehad this conversation on the
exact show. And I said to you, instead of
selling farcorn, you could rightnow just short it on Hyper
Liquid. And that was the training like
1.41 point 5. And I said like you could just

(52:58):
sit there and earn a yield for the rest of the year, right,
risk free. And then you didn't.
And then? Why?
Because I don't know this shit. I'm.
Sorry, I'm not going. To start market making my fart
coin position, you know I'm going to hold it.
You know, I'm going to be down alot like I'm right now from the

(53:20):
top, and then I'm just going to hold it longer, yeah, and hope
that it goes back up. Just to critically like we,
we're not the, we're not the number one trader of the hyper
liquid token, though we do tradea lot of it.
You're the number one volume. On Hyper Liquid.
On like as in. Across.
The volume, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
How much volume have you guys done on hyper Liquid if you

(53:40):
don't mind me asking? Because you brought it up.
I knew that, but you brought it up like.
I think it's last I I looked at a few days ago or something with
135 billion I think. You guys, you guys have done
$135 billion volume on Hyper Liquid.
Just hyper liquid, yeah. That's just hyper.
Liquid. Yeah, you can see it on the the
leaderboard. Yeah, 137.

(54:01):
Billion. Yeah, $2 billion.
Since, you know, a mere 2. Let me ask you something Jason
quick, just for the sake of whatcan you share like how much
volume do you do you guys do in crypto in general, like on a
day-to-day basis weekly or monthly?
Because you said just hyper, butI'm sure you do crypto com
Binance. Yeah, it fluctuates like
obviously like peak trading dayswhen the markets are super busy

(54:22):
and people need to trade and there's lots of activity going
on. We'll do a lot.
I think peak trading day earlierthis year was in excess of 10
billion on centralized exchangesand two 2 1/2 on chain I believe
that day. So it's sort of like if large
numbers on a single day, but that's not consistent.
Like I think a better metric of it is sort of around 2 to 3% of

(54:43):
global crypto volume we're transacting.
So I mean it goes back to 130 people.
I mean, that sounds like a few, but they've got a couple of
things to do, but I think like really digging into the details
on like what Mark Magus actuallydo is, is super important.
I'm happy to answer any questions you guys have about it
or or happy to, well what. Do you like listen to, because I

(55:04):
feel like you can you, I feel like you kind of went there
like, you know, how, like what do you do and stuff?
And then what's this misunderstanding that like
degens have or underestimation that they have about trading
firms that silently operate likein the background like yours.
But like, if you were to like, explain in layman's terms
exactly what you do and how you make your money on the $135
billion sale hyper liquid. The the trading activity itself

(55:29):
matters Spot on. Like we.
Run a lot. Of delta neutral strategies like
where you're you're looking at funding arbitragers and you're
looking at statistical arbitragers.
We have some corn strategies that run in the medium frequency
space. We can see a high frequency
trading firm. So we're looking at all the
venues we're trading at, workingout where we think our
theoretical cheap and expensive point is putting up bids and
offers through the market and making markets.

(55:49):
That's where the name comes from.
And and by doing that, we provide liquidity people.
So if you want to go buy a wholebunch of Bitcoin on one of the
venues where we trade, which is the major venue where you would
want to buy any size, you'd end up inevitably trading against
us. So we're not unhappy to be a
seller of Bitcoin there because we've got some other position on
or a hedge against it elsewhere.And we're earning on, like

(56:11):
Maddow said, in a very simplistic manner, we're earning
in other ways. We have strategies that on a
long enough time scale in a delta neutral fashion, we'll
continue to to add profit and and revenue to the business and
the benefit to everyone. I kind of think like people say
this sort of cheesy stuff all the time, but like liquidity
ends up being like the lifebloodof the market.
We don't trade that way on hype,on finance, on Coinbase.

(56:36):
We just don't trade the way we trade in that size.
Everyone's cost of transaction goes up.
You don't have to. You have to start thinking like,
cool, what am I actually buying in for?
How do I execute it, you know, paying fees on every transaction
I do. Or is it like moving wallet
money around liquidity on bridges, all that sort of stuff
that's all underpinned by liquidity.

(56:56):
And I think people get away fromthe concept of likely market
makers bad don't care if they'rein liquidity.
If they really dug into like what would happen it, it's not
going to be great. It goes back to like the heyday
of, you know, some of the early exchanges where there was just
no liquidity in the transaction fees people were paying.
Now all of that gets dwarfed if Bitcoin does 1000 X again or

(57:18):
10,000 X again, wherever you bought in.
But ultimately, as the market matures and gets more efficient,
it needs to be liquid. And another benefit that we
provide is just because of economic incentive, not because
we're like altruistic and helping the space necessarily,
but we arbitrage prices back in the line.
So it means if you're trading ona DEX or you're trading on a sex

(57:41):
or you're trading on some sort of hybrid version of that, the
price should be the same, right?It shouldn't be a bad experience
to be AUS user and stuck on Kraken or or Coinbase.
You should be able to buy the token for the same price as
everyone else. 100% some people,some people, some people loving

(58:02):
what you're saying. Jason, quickly your your Twitter
account is Oxj Adkins, right? Yeah, that's made personally.
And then Oris, I think is Oris under score?
Global. Just for people who want to
follow, it's Oris Global. Jason, you didn't put a banner.
I told you, you put a banner on your Twitter like a month ago.
God damn it. So I got to clean all that up.

(58:23):
It's a it's a dark space I'm going to fix up so.
You're like one of the biggest chats and smartest individuals I
know in crypto. And then I look at your Twitter
page and I'm like, it's the opposite of it, you know?
Yeah, come on here. It's so well spoken.
People are loving. You more comments are good
there's. 2000 people watching. On.
Video everybody's like yo, who is Jason You know I'm so I'm

(58:45):
sharing his thing you know OX Jackins, chief commercial
officer at oros he's based in Hong Kong check him out he's the
guy with 142 followers or he should probably add 2 zeros to
that based on his his his his input and what he knows but
anyways, Tyler, I think you got to.
I got a couple questions, one quick one.
So do you ever take directional bets on on tokens?

(59:08):
Yeah. So we like when you say
directional, our strategy is broadly delta neutral.
But what we're looking at is like different skews and
parameters around the market. It wouldn't be like outright
like we're going like leverage long certain things in
aggressive size. We do have discretionary parts
of the business like our ventures book is outright long
projects, right. We're investing at a very early

(59:29):
stage. So yes, we have directional
positions in the firm and we have traders of varying
experiences across like really high frequency, delta neutral
stuff right into like medium frequency where those sorts of
like judgment calls start to start to play into it as well.
But it's not really our edge. Like there are plenty of like
big betting hedge funds out there that that take huge

(59:51):
directional bets. But yeah, most of the time we're
trying to maintain delta neutrality so that we can
continue to expand across the space and and provide liquidity
in bull and bear markets. Not good for everyone.
If like we're like ultra long everything and then their market
hits and we're like we've just lost all our money and now we
can't provide liquidity and it'seven worse for everybody.
So it's kind of a good thing to be neutral.

(01:00:14):
And perhaps the last one, I imagine you have to have some
kind of a broad market outlook near term, mid term, longer
term, you know as you're managing these positions and
overall training strategy. I think there's a lot, there's
growing concern out there right now of a double top of top
sides, Trump going deeper into crypto pump fund token launch,

(01:00:35):
like people are kind of adding to the list.
But at the same time, we've got like this global liquidity
influx focus on growth. I'm curious, what's your broad
outlook on the crypto market right now, if you think we're
we're in for a top or more room to go?
Yeah, look, I, I probably just my background's macro, so it's
kind of like a zoomed out approach.
So I'll probably get away from like his one O 5 region.

(01:00:57):
The the sort of topic for this for this round.
And then we pull back. What I will say is the dips are
going to be shallower and shallower and shallower.
I think like the ATF news last year was this like buy the
rumours sell the fact. That's not a reflection of the
fact that it's not good news. It's a reflection of the fact
that crypto Twitter has the attention span of of a six year
old. So ultimately, if you think
about who can now buy exposure that forces more buying and

(01:01:21):
Bitcoin, Ethereum, and and by proxy the rest of the space as
it expands, it's guys that move slow.
It's guys that do quarterly investment reviews or yearly
investment reviews. And they have mandates like I
can't buy an ETF until it's beenaround for two years.
That constant pulse will sit under the market at all times.
So like, am I bullish at 105110 in the short term, I guess is as

(01:01:43):
good as yours? Am I bullish on the fact that
this space is now inevitable andthat we found product market fit
and now we've found institutional investment fit?
Yes, and that will mean dips will be shallower than they have
been previously, less painful even this this bear market pull
back that, you know, we're goingback to 75 K and Bitcoin didn't

(01:02:05):
really feel that bad. Like a lot of money has been
extracted from the space becauseof things like pumped up fun and
things like that and and a lot of the bad things that have
happened in this cycle. But ultimately it didn't really
feel anywhere near as bad as what happened with FTX and the
last real bear cycle that we had.
So to answer your question directly, like I am bullish on
the space after hearing Joe yesterday, I'm super bullish on

(01:02:27):
my very light Ethereum bags. But it's I think there's a lot
of exciting stuff coming up for firms like us that are very
finance D5 focused to see like the potential for what Joe was
talking about, which is like AD 5 resurgence on Ethereum because
you've got really interesting features coming to the chain
that will speed it up, make it feature parity with the fact

(01:02:48):
that we're going to be able to trade on places like mega Earth,
for example, that's going to be designed around being super fast
for firms like us. It suddenly makes our strategies
deployable on chain versus previously we only had off
chain. So I'm bullish on the overall
like innovation that's coming into the space.
I'm bullish on the institutionaldemand that will sit as a pulse
constantly below the market, notto mention all these bitcoins,

(01:03:10):
Solana, Ethereum strategies thatare adding more demand again and
again. And then I'm, I'm kind of
bullish on the fact that we havetrended from pretty much no on
chain activity when I joined thefirm a little under four years
ago. So like 10 to 15% of our firm is
now trading on chain. Like do I see that trend
continuing? Absolutely.
What will make that happen? Feature parity, more things that

(01:03:33):
we can do on chain and then moreusers on chain, which I think if
pump funds raising a billion dollars, they're not doing it.
It's either they're doing it to to raise a billion dollars
because the valuation or they'redoing it because they've got
something in mind that they wantto do build on the platform and
the brand that they built. So I'm I'm excited to see what
that brings. I'm with you your thoughts.

(01:03:55):
Appreciate that. Some really good thoughts,
Jason. All right.
Any final things you want to show that they weren't over
time, but that was really, really, really insightful.
Jason, any last things you want to share call out here on the OR
side or we need to have. Yeah, I'm happy to like guys,
long time listener, first time caller, but like I'm happy to
dial in anytime you guys want tochat markets or there's big

(01:04:17):
launch coming up and you want tounderstand like at a launch of
work or like what does it mean to like get a listing on an
exchange? We can bring people on the
experts in that. We have a pretty good group of
people across the firm that havebeen doing this for a long time.
So understanding market microstructure, liquidity,
supply, demand, how to launch a token, how to work with
exchanges, all of those little things that like a founder who's

(01:04:39):
a genius building pump dot fund doesn't need to think about as
much until they're launching A token.
Happy to hop on with you guys and chat it through.
I mean, I'm think if I can speakto your listeners and have a
bunch of people that like go a little further than surface
level market maker bad. I think that maybe I've added a
little bit to to the space and hopefully we can have easier

(01:05:02):
conversations with people that are looking for like true help
to have a successful token launch.
And and that's where we want to fit and, and what we're trying
to do for the space. So yeah, more than happy to guys
and and thank you very much for having me and and letting me
have a having the mic for a few minutes.
Well, appreciate it, Jason.

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Cold Case Files: Miami

24/7 News: The Latest

Crime Junkie

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}PumpFun plans token, ETH leads again, Trumps deny wallet

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}Cold Case Files: Miami

24/7 News: The Latest

Crime Junkie

All Episodes

PumpFun plans token, ETH leads again, Trumps deny wallet

Cold Case Files: Miami