August 15, 2025 • 25 mins
"When we say that we believe, we are saying that we are in the response position." In our latest series, Bishop Wright invites us to consider the profound implications of the declaration "We Believe" that unites Christians across time, denomination, and geography.
In this episode, Melissa and Bishop Wright have a conversation about what it truly means to believe. Far more than intellectual agreement, belief positions us in relationship to a God who exists whether we acknowledge it or not. When we stand and recite ancient creeds, we join a timeless community of faith—standing "spiritually shoulder to shoulder with generations who have gone before and generations yet to come." This connection reminds us that faith is both deeply personal and inherently communal. Listen in for the full conversation.
Read For Faith, the companion devotional.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Bishop Wright (00:00):
When we say that we believe, we are saying that
we are in the response position.
Belief is a response to thereality of God, it's a way that
we can apprehend the reality ofGod, and it's all gift.
As I start this journey WithGod, I'm already responding, and
one way, best way to respond isto say I intend to live as one
(00:25):
who trusts this reality that wecall God.
Melissa (00:40):
Welcome to For People with Bishop Rob Wright.
I'm Melissa Rau and this is aconversation inspired by For
Faith, a weekly devotion sentout every Friday.
You can find a link to thisweek's For Faith and a link to
subscribe in the episode'sdescription.
Over the course of this nextseason, Bishop Wright is framing
his devotions and ourconversations around the theme
(01:01):
We Believe as we make our waythrough the lectionary.
Welcome, bishop.
Bishop Wright (01:08):
Good morning.
Melissa (01:10):
Today's devotion you have based off of Luke, chapter
12, verses 49 through 56.
And it's a big one.
It's really about keeping usunited, not divided, and all the
things that Jesus had to sayabout that.
Tell me where this inspired thewe believe theme.
Bishop Wright (01:33):
Yeah, well, again , as I mentioned last week, you
know, just upon reflecting onhow we gather as believers
around the world, gather asbelievers around the world.
You know, one of the thingsthat we have in common, even
across denominations, even withfolks who don't even go to
church, we use these two words,we believe, and those words are
(01:56):
really powerful and, as I say,in a devotion, they're not magic
and they're as consequential aswe choose to make them and
they're as consequential as wechoose to make them.
It's pretty powerful to thinkabout that, that, at least in
our tradition, all over theglobe, you largely
aspirationally and, I hope,penetratingly, say we believe,
(02:46):
and that's pretty powerful whenyou think about it, that we
stand, then, in that moment,spiritually shoulder to shoulder
with generations who have gonebefore and, in many ways,
generations that are yet to come, as a group of people who, by
faith, are questing forward withJesus.
We believe and we're saying,when we say that, that this
means something to us you know,the full freight of which I'm
still figuring out and yet,through the gift of grace that
(03:07):
is faith.
Yet those words are importantto me.
We believe, and when we say thecreed because I'm referring to
what we call the Niacin Creed.
You know it's not the fullmeasure of the faith.
In many ways it's the table ofcontents of the faith.
We believe in God, we believein Jesus Christ, we believe in
the Holy Spirit, we believe inthe church, all those sorts of
(03:30):
things.
And you know I really commendpeople to study.
If you haven't studied I wouldreally commend it.
And what I like about the creedand it was actually my wife who
pointed this out to me I sort ofmumbled through it all these
many years, as lots of folks doand never realize.
And we believe, you know, inthe world that is to come.
(03:50):
And what's interesting is isthat when we believe and we go
deep with Jesus, we really arewith chisel and hammer alongside
of the Holy Spirit, chiselingout the world that is to come in
this very moment.
And so that's a way to reallythink about it.
When we say we believe, whatwe're saying is that God is the
(04:17):
sun around which we orbit, andjust that much is worth
everything.
(04:46):
No-transcript Belief is aresponse to the reality of God.
It's a way that we canapprehend the reality of God and
it's all gift and it's allgrace.
And so, as I start this journeywith God.
I'm already responding, and oneway, best way to respond, is to
(05:09):
say I believe, by the way, andI'll say, I restate this, not
that I give intellectual assentto the idea only, but I am
living, I will live, I am goingto live, I intend to live as one
who trusts this reality that wecall God.
Melissa (05:29):
Okay.
And so you're talking aboutstanding up and saying a creed,
all in unity and unison, and itdoesn't escape me that the very
last sentence of your devotion,it says Jesus came, I came for
division, which is a littleironic right?
And yet you're saying let's notmeaning making go hand in hand
(05:50):
and many people will interpretthings differently from one
(06:18):
another, like how do we holdthat intention?
Bishop Wright (06:21):
Well, I think what I'm doing is trying to
start at the beginning.
I think what happens is is thatpeople race right by sort of
what I've just said and they getto what I call, you know, the
issue, the issues du jour.
Right, what is the?
What is the division soup ofthe day?
And I'm not poo-pooing them,but I think that let's let's
(06:44):
begin at the beginning, and, andactually the issues of the day,
so to speak, are downstream ofwhat I'm trying to say.
In fact, I can't even reallyparse in any faithful way the
issues of the day until I startat the top of the funnel, if you
will, with who am I, who is Godand who is my neighbor?
(07:07):
Right?
And so I think that any issuethat we are faced with that's so
wonderfully urgent right now,and division making right now,
you know, we can just sort ofwrestle with that sort of stuff
without any frame of reference.
I think the frame of referencefor us is that God is good, real
(07:28):
, able, good and generous, andyou are my sibling Again to beat
that drum again and again andagain.
That's where we start, that iswhere we start, and then that
helps us to parse issues.
Now I want to say something herewhich may sound controversial
to some folks.
Some folks, you know, go toscripture and have this sort of
(07:54):
maybe even a golden calf andobsession with the word unity,
and I don't see that in theBible actually.
In fact, jesus himself says Icome to bring a sword right and
division will spring up.
By me being amongst you, foryou and loving.
So I think we may have to putour big boy and big girl pants
(08:15):
on and realize that this is atragically, terribly messy world
and that what I'm responsiblefor, you know, is not the whole
world.
I remember as a kid there was aCoca-Cola commercial.
You know, I love to see thewhole world sing, and there's
this wonderful image wherepeople are holding hands across
the world.
I'm not giving up on that, butI want to also name that we live
(08:39):
in a very messy world and itcontinues to get messier, if I'm
understanding the newscorrectly.
So then, what am I responsiblefor?
What is the best response tothat?
Well, not my mind, butScripture seems to think that
individuals who can clumptogether in large and small
groups who believe in love ofneighbor is the best way to
(09:01):
handle that, that there's goingto be division right up to the
end if you use that language,that revelation language, and
that somehow there's a part ofall of that that is God's
business exclusively.
So then, what I'm trying tofigure out is so what's our part
(09:23):
?
So, my part, our part, I think,is to figure out who is this
God, as we've told the story ofGod, how have we painted on
God's canvas with our smallness,with our need to be superior,
with our need to be separate?
How can we purge that and moveas best we can, with the grace
(09:46):
of God, into a configurationwith one another that is
graceful, kind, alsotruth-telling and candid and
also understands that we arefinite but God is infinite?
So what's our part?
What's God's part?
None of that.
All the messiness of thatdoesn't stop me from starting
(10:08):
where we can start.
I think what worries me now isis that people watch the news
and we have our little devicesin our hands, more computing
than did send the men to themoon, and we're, sort of in real
time, very aware of all thebrokenness in the world, and
(10:28):
people tend to get paralyzed bythat, people tend to get
overwhelmed by that, people gointo despair over that, people
go into depression over that.
People want to run and hide andof course I understand that
right.
And yet here's Jesus invitingus, one step at a time, right to
interpret these times that welive in in this way.
(10:49):
And the way is God is timeless.
God is wondrous and loving.
Neighbor is your sibling youhave.
You're not responsible for theentire world.
You have 24 hours, just likethe next man or woman, and if
you believe, let's see what yourbelief yields in the next 24
(11:12):
hours.
Melissa (11:14):
So that's big and bold.
Right there, I feel like wecould conclude no, I'm just
kidding, I just kind of feelthat that was a micro.
Bishop Wright (11:22):
I realize I'm on a tear there, but I think these
ideas all wonderfully worktogether.
Melissa (11:50):
So I think what's really compelling about this
devotion, Bishop, is the verylast thing.
That's in my version anyway.
The NRSV UE.
Jesus is saying gosh, you know,we know how to predict the
weather, we know how torecognize what's happening with
the planets and all the things,and yet why do you not know how
(12:10):
to interpret the present time?
And you're suggesting that wedo that through trust.
Bishop Wright (12:15):
Yes, Well, again, as I said, forget me.
I mean, I'm just sort ofcommending what Jesus has
commended.
That's what he comes to boldlydeclare with his living, in his
silences, in his words, in hisdeeds and in his death and
resurrection.
You know, he's coming to sayyou ought to trust God.
(12:36):
He's coming to say God istrustworthy even when it hurts.
You know, with your biggestpain and all your accomplishment
, you can trust God to be sortof the best guide and companion.
And all that I mean and he saysthat and what's fantastic about
(13:00):
the church with all of herproblems, is is that you keep
running into people I have, andI'm sure you have, who have
actually tried this to varyingdegrees.
And it's amazing to see thewonder on their faces, the joy
in their voices, and to realizethat they've discovered you know
, to use the biblical language,they've discovered a pearl of
great price that was in theirgarden all along.
(13:21):
I mean, it's a wonderful thing.
And you know, I've met people intragic divorces.
I've met people in death andloss.
I've met people in terribledisorientation.
I've met, you know, youngpeople who've got the world
ahead of them, who somehow get aglimpse that their best life
(13:43):
will be trusting God and living,you know, peaceably with other
people, and you know it inspiresme.
I mean people think I'm in theinspiration business in some
ways.
People and it, you know itinspires me.
I mean people think I'm in theinspiration business in some
ways.
I'm just sort of in the.
I'm a bit like a barn silo, soI sort of gather all the grain
in the barn and then pour it out.
I mean I keep meeting faithfulpeople who have decided to try
(14:04):
to trust God and I get to tellthose stories and so, yeah, so
Jesus does that.
And Jesus is saying, you know,I'm saying to you, jesus says
this is the best way tointerpret the times.
Now, what we have to realize inthis moment is is that we have
divided loyalties, right,because there's no purity in us,
(14:25):
right, and I don't mean that asa slight to us, I just mean
that we are the kind of peopleour mind and our behind can be
going in two differentdirections.
We have divided loyalty.
We can say we want, you know,sort of world peace, and then we
can say something contradictoryto that in our Middle East, but
nobody wants to give an inch inGaza, right, and so we know
(14:58):
that to be terribly, terriblytrue, and at the same time, we
know that people are sincerewhen they say they want world
peace.
But these things have a cost.
And so the measure of what webelieve is all Jesus is saying.
The real measure of what youbelieve, measure of what we
believe is all Jesus is saying,the real measure of what you
believe is what you do, and Ithink in the West in particular,
(15:18):
we've sort of read, I think.
Therefore, I am as if we canshape the world really by just
sitting in rooms and thinkingprofound thoughts, and that has
nothing to do with Jesus at all.
I mean, it's so profound thatJesus comes to us, god in flesh.
That action, the incarnation,proves this paradigm, that it is
(15:43):
even God decided to come and todo beyond creation so as to
help to persuade us that this isthe way to live.
Melissa (15:52):
Okay.
So I guess there's some tensionin me that I have to name,
because I heard what you saidabout trusting God and it's
really about trust and believingin God individually and then
collectively, and I feel likethe church sometimes gets in the
way of that.
In that I'm just saying therecould be a person like let's
(16:13):
take me, for example, I trustGod so fully and yet sometimes
there will be people in thechurch and I'll do this too to
others who, who have a problemwith some of the other beliefs
that say that very trustingperson in God, very mature faith
, who's just trying to livefaithfully and lovingly and you
(16:35):
know, for their neighbors andall the things, and yet
precludes them from fullbelonging simply because that
they might believe something alittle differently than someone
else.
That's real tension for me.
Bishop Wright (16:50):
Well, yeah, I mean there is tension in all of
this.
That's why I called it dividedloyalties.
I mean, you know there is realtension in it and you know life
with God is living with thattension and working through with
that.
You know, one of the ways tosay this a little bit cheeky, is
to say if we find in our lifewith God that we win all the
arguments with God, perhaps weneed an adjustment in our
(17:14):
relationship.
I think what we don't want totalk about when we talk about
belief and trusting God isobedience.
I think that's what we don'twant to talk about.
What we want is a God whobelieves with us, who believes
what we believe.
What we want is a God whobelieves with us, who believes
what we believe and who wants to.
You know, what we want is thisconversation to be a reversal of
polarity.
(17:34):
We believe as a response to whoGod is.
We believe it's not Godresponding to who.
We are Right, and I thinkthat's what we want.
We want God to disagree withthe people we disagree with.
We want God to vote the way wevote.
We want God to not like thepeople we don't like and so we
(17:57):
believe is, by definitionstretching.
I mean that is part of a maturefaith and part of that maturity
comes about.
There's no other way thanobedience.
So just because I don'tunderstand everything, I mean I
think belief means it doesn'tmean that I don't try everything
, right.
And so how do we please God?
The Bible tells us you cannotplease God without faith.
In other words, I've got to tryit, I've got to try.
(18:21):
It doesn't say it says itdoesn't say think and see that
the Lord is good Right.
It says taste and see that theLord is good.
Right, it says taste and seethat the Lord is good.
And so, if we want to be maturefollowers of Jesus, the truth
of the matter is is that we'regoing to have to do some things
that will be uncomfortable, livesome ways that are going to be
uncomfortable.
(18:41):
Let me give you a concreteexample.
When we say we believe, right,what we're saying is that we
trust God.
Now, all of us haverelationships that could be
better.
Some of us have relationshipsthat are terribly broken, right.
So Jesus gives us a concreteway to handle forgiveness and we
(19:09):
have decided, many of us.
We have decided that we knowbetter than Jesus about how to
handle family disputes,brokenness, marital discord.
We have decided that we knowbetter.
We have decided that we may be,on one level, aware of Jesus's
process that he's offering to us.
We have decided we're not goingto go that far, that that's a
(19:29):
bridge too far, that forgivingseven times 70 is too far, that
praying for those who abuse usand say nasty things about us is
a bridge too far.
We have decided right and I'msaying this as a sinner, I'm
saying this as someone, rob, whomisses the mark.
So that is a that is an exampleof what I mean.
(19:52):
We have decided to withholdParts of ourselves From this
sort of trust experiment withGod and then, having withheld
parts of ourselves, we havedecided to critique God as
somehow not able.
So that is a bit ridiculous whenyou think about it.
(20:14):
We've not tried the product andyet we want to criticize the
product, because what isactually true is I'm afraid, or
I'm too invested in my way, ormy ego, and this is why, you
know, I like to say, you know,in a matter of speaking, we had
to kill Jesus, because Jesuskept coming to us to say I
(20:37):
understand your ego, Iunderstand your wounds, I
understand your pain.
All of it's legitimate.
But I have a way to process allof that.
Won't you come and use my way,your wealth, your time, your
achievement, come and use theway that I've constructed so
that you can hold all thosethings in the best way.
(20:59):
And we have decided in manyways to say thanks, jesus, but
no thanks, yeah.
So it's evolving and so if I,as a preacher and a pastor,
don't bring you to thatintersection, I've not done my
job.
Now I'm not going to condemnyou or criticize you at that
(21:20):
intersection, but it's my job totell you, to describe at least,
and for my own self and for myown soul, what's at that
intersection.
Melissa (21:31):
Yeah, and so I'm thinking the word justice here.
How do we lean into trustingGod and also having the, I guess
, holding it in tension,understanding that this is very
much a personal and individualresponse to said trust, without
getting caught up in all of theshoulding and should notting on
(21:51):
other people?
Bishop Wright (21:52):
Yeah, we don't want to, should all over it,
right?
No, we don't.
Well, look, here's one way totalk about it.
You know we get racing to thesebig.
I mean, justice was a justice,was an individual idea, a
communal construct, before itbecame a nation-state construct.
Right, it became just dealingwith individuals.
(22:13):
I mean, if you go back to theOld Testament, it became a way
to sort of set guardrails in thecommunity before it became a
nation-state way to go.
And so here's what I wouldinvite us to think about.
What is that for us to reflecton?
Invite us to think about whatis that for us to reflect on?
What area of our lives might webe most out of alignment with
(22:33):
God and God's processes andGod's ways forward?
It may be in our finances.
It may be in our obsessive needto accumulate things that we
don't need.
It may be a broken relationship.
And let's start there.
I mean, we can't solve themacro today, but we might be
(22:56):
able to make some improvement onsomething personal today.
And so the gospel is not onlypersonal piety, but it does
start there, right?
Because I think there's no hopein many ways for justice and
just systems and equitablesystems if we as individuals
(23:19):
don't move our hearts in thatdirection, with the help of the
community and the grace ofAlmighty God.
So so you know, why should weexpect that a county in Georgia
would be more just, moreequitable, more kind, more
generous, if the households inthat county individually are not
(23:39):
moving in that direction?
It seems almost an impossibletask and a ridiculous ask.
And so I think that we startwhere we are, and where we are
is.
You know what have you riskedfor the gospel?
You know how have you extendedan olive branch?
Not because you necessarilywanted to, but because who you
(24:01):
say you are, who we say God is,is persuasive to you, god is is
persuasive to you.
So not my way, god, but yourway.
Even Jesus, you know, has toecho those words Not my will,
but thy will be done.
He says that at importantintersections at his life
perhaps the most importantintersection at his life and
(24:24):
when he says that thecrucifixion and the resurrection
are downstream of that.
But they all start with not mywill, god, but your will.
So if we really want to bemature believers, if we really
want to in flesh, we believewe've got to stand at these
intersections as best we can,relying on the grace and help of
(24:47):
God, informed by scripture, andtake that next hard step.
Jesus says you know, this ishow we interpret the times.
We interpret the times throughfaithful action and that's how
we move forward.
Melissa (25:02):
Amen, bishop, thank you , and thank you, listeners, for
listening to For People.
You can follow us on Instagramand Facebook at Bishop Rob
Wright, or by visiting www.
forpeople.
digital.
Please subscribe, leave areview and we'll be back with
you next week.
When we say that we believe, we are saying that
we are in the response position.
Belief is a response to thereality of God, it's a way that
we can apprehend the reality ofGod, and it's all gift.
As I start this journey WithGod, I'm already responding, and
one way, best way to respond isto say I intend to live as one
(00:25):
who trusts this reality that wecall God.
Melissa (00:40):
Welcome to For People with Bishop Rob Wright.
I'm Melissa Rau and this is aconversation inspired by For
Faith, a weekly devotion sentout every Friday.
You can find a link to thisweek's For Faith and a link to
subscribe in the episode'sdescription.
Over the course of this nextseason, Bishop Wright is framing
his devotions and ourconversations around the theme
(01:01):
We Believe as we make our waythrough the lectionary.
Welcome, bishop.
Bishop Wright (01:08):
Good morning.
Melissa (01:10):
Today's devotion you have based off of Luke, chapter
12, verses 49 through 56.
And it's a big one.
It's really about keeping usunited, not divided, and all the
things that Jesus had to sayabout that.
Tell me where this inspired thewe believe theme.
Bishop Wright (01:33):
Yeah, well, again , as I mentioned last week, you
know, just upon reflecting onhow we gather as believers
around the world, gather asbelievers around the world.
You know, one of the thingsthat we have in common, even
across denominations, even withfolks who don't even go to
church, we use these two words,we believe, and those words are
(01:56):
really powerful and, as I say,in a devotion, they're not magic
and they're as consequential aswe choose to make them and
they're as consequential as wechoose to make them.
It's pretty powerful to thinkabout that, that, at least in
our tradition, all over theglobe, you largely
aspirationally and, I hope,penetratingly, say we believe,
(02:46):
and that's pretty powerful whenyou think about it, that we
stand, then, in that moment,spiritually shoulder to shoulder
with generations who have gonebefore and, in many ways,
generations that are yet to come, as a group of people who, by
faith, are questing forward withJesus.
We believe and we're saying,when we say that, that this
means something to us you know,the full freight of which I'm
still figuring out and yet,through the gift of grace that
(03:07):
is faith.
Yet those words are importantto me.
We believe, and when we say thecreed because I'm referring to
what we call the Niacin Creed.
You know it's not the fullmeasure of the faith.
In many ways it's the table ofcontents of the faith.
We believe in God, we believein Jesus Christ, we believe in
the Holy Spirit, we believe inthe church, all those sorts of
(03:30):
things.
And you know I really commendpeople to study.
If you haven't studied I wouldreally commend it.
And what I like about the creedand it was actually my wife who
pointed this out to me I sort ofmumbled through it all these
many years, as lots of folks doand never realize.
And we believe, you know, inthe world that is to come.
(03:50):
And what's interesting is isthat when we believe and we go
deep with Jesus, we really arewith chisel and hammer alongside
of the Holy Spirit, chiselingout the world that is to come in
this very moment.
And so that's a way to reallythink about it.
When we say we believe, whatwe're saying is that God is the
(04:17):
sun around which we orbit, andjust that much is worth
everything.
(04:46):
No-transcript Belief is aresponse to the reality of God.
It's a way that we canapprehend the reality of God and
it's all gift and it's allgrace.
And so, as I start this journeywith God.
I'm already responding, and oneway, best way to respond, is to
(05:09):
say I believe, by the way, andI'll say, I restate this, not
that I give intellectual assentto the idea only, but I am
living, I will live, I am goingto live, I intend to live as one
who trusts this reality that wecall God.
Melissa (05:29):
Okay.
And so you're talking aboutstanding up and saying a creed,
all in unity and unison, and itdoesn't escape me that the very
last sentence of your devotion,it says Jesus came, I came for
division, which is a littleironic right?
And yet you're saying let's notmeaning making go hand in hand
(05:50):
and many people will interpretthings differently from one
(06:18):
another, like how do we holdthat intention?
Bishop Wright (06:21):
Well, I think what I'm doing is trying to
start at the beginning.
I think what happens is is thatpeople race right by sort of
what I've just said and they getto what I call, you know, the
issue, the issues du jour.
Right, what is the?
What is the division soup ofthe day?
And I'm not poo-pooing them,but I think that let's let's
(06:44):
begin at the beginning, and, andactually the issues of the day,
so to speak, are downstream ofwhat I'm trying to say.
In fact, I can't even reallyparse in any faithful way the
issues of the day until I startat the top of the funnel, if you
will, with who am I, who is Godand who is my neighbor?
(07:07):
Right?
And so I think that any issuethat we are faced with that's so
wonderfully urgent right now,and division making right now,
you know, we can just sort ofwrestle with that sort of stuff
without any frame of reference.
I think the frame of referencefor us is that God is good, real
(07:28):
, able, good and generous, andyou are my sibling Again to beat
that drum again and again andagain.
That's where we start, that iswhere we start, and then that
helps us to parse issues.
Now I want to say something herewhich may sound controversial
to some folks.
Some folks, you know, go toscripture and have this sort of
(07:54):
maybe even a golden calf andobsession with the word unity,
and I don't see that in theBible actually.
In fact, jesus himself says Icome to bring a sword right and
division will spring up.
By me being amongst you, foryou and loving.
So I think we may have to putour big boy and big girl pants
(08:15):
on and realize that this is atragically, terribly messy world
and that what I'm responsiblefor, you know, is not the whole
world.
I remember as a kid there was aCoca-Cola commercial.
You know, I love to see thewhole world sing, and there's
this wonderful image wherepeople are holding hands across
the world.
I'm not giving up on that, butI want to also name that we live
(08:39):
in a very messy world and itcontinues to get messier, if I'm
understanding the newscorrectly.
So then, what am I responsiblefor?
What is the best response tothat?
Well, not my mind, butScripture seems to think that
individuals who can clumptogether in large and small
groups who believe in love ofneighbor is the best way to
(09:01):
handle that, that there's goingto be division right up to the
end if you use that language,that revelation language, and
that somehow there's a part ofall of that that is God's
business exclusively.
So then, what I'm trying tofigure out is so what's our part
(09:23):
?
So, my part, our part, I think,is to figure out who is this
God, as we've told the story ofGod, how have we painted on
God's canvas with our smallness,with our need to be superior,
with our need to be separate?
How can we purge that and moveas best we can, with the grace
(09:46):
of God, into a configurationwith one another that is
graceful, kind, alsotruth-telling and candid and
also understands that we arefinite but God is infinite?
So what's our part?
What's God's part?
None of that.
All the messiness of thatdoesn't stop me from starting
(10:08):
where we can start.
I think what worries me now isis that people watch the news
and we have our little devicesin our hands, more computing
than did send the men to themoon, and we're, sort of in real
time, very aware of all thebrokenness in the world, and
(10:28):
people tend to get paralyzed bythat, people tend to get
overwhelmed by that, people gointo despair over that, people
go into depression over that.
People want to run and hide andof course I understand that
right.
And yet here's Jesus invitingus, one step at a time, right to
interpret these times that welive in in this way.
(10:49):
And the way is God is timeless.
God is wondrous and loving.
Neighbor is your sibling youhave.
You're not responsible for theentire world.
You have 24 hours, just likethe next man or woman, and if
you believe, let's see what yourbelief yields in the next 24
(11:12):
hours.
Melissa (11:14):
So that's big and bold.
Right there, I feel like wecould conclude no, I'm just
kidding, I just kind of feelthat that was a micro.
Bishop Wright (11:22):
I realize I'm on a tear there, but I think these
ideas all wonderfully worktogether.
Melissa (11:50):
So I think what's really compelling about this
devotion, Bishop, is the verylast thing.
That's in my version anyway.
The NRSV UE.
Jesus is saying gosh, you know,we know how to predict the
weather, we know how torecognize what's happening with
the planets and all the things,and yet why do you not know how
(12:10):
to interpret the present time?
And you're suggesting that wedo that through trust.
Bishop Wright (12:15):
Yes, Well, again, as I said, forget me.
I mean, I'm just sort ofcommending what Jesus has
commended.
That's what he comes to boldlydeclare with his living, in his
silences, in his words, in hisdeeds and in his death and
resurrection.
You know, he's coming to sayyou ought to trust God.
(12:36):
He's coming to say God istrustworthy even when it hurts.
You know, with your biggestpain and all your accomplishment
, you can trust God to be sortof the best guide and companion.
And all that I mean and he saysthat and what's fantastic about
(13:00):
the church with all of herproblems, is is that you keep
running into people I have, andI'm sure you have, who have
actually tried this to varyingdegrees.
And it's amazing to see thewonder on their faces, the joy
in their voices, and to realizethat they've discovered you know
, to use the biblical language,they've discovered a pearl of
great price that was in theirgarden all along.
(13:21):
I mean, it's a wonderful thing.
And you know, I've met people intragic divorces.
I've met people in death andloss.
I've met people in terribledisorientation.
I've met, you know, youngpeople who've got the world
ahead of them, who somehow get aglimpse that their best life
(13:43):
will be trusting God and living,you know, peaceably with other
people, and you know it inspiresme.
I mean people think I'm in theinspiration business in some
ways.
People and it, you know itinspires me.
I mean people think I'm in theinspiration business in some
ways.
I'm just sort of in the.
I'm a bit like a barn silo, soI sort of gather all the grain
in the barn and then pour it out.
I mean I keep meeting faithfulpeople who have decided to try
(14:04):
to trust God and I get to tellthose stories and so, yeah, so
Jesus does that.
And Jesus is saying, you know,I'm saying to you, jesus says
this is the best way tointerpret the times.
Now, what we have to realize inthis moment is is that we have
divided loyalties, right,because there's no purity in us,
(14:25):
right, and I don't mean that asa slight to us, I just mean
that we are the kind of peopleour mind and our behind can be
going in two differentdirections.
We have divided loyalty.
We can say we want, you know,sort of world peace, and then we
can say something contradictoryto that in our Middle East, but
nobody wants to give an inch inGaza, right, and so we know
(14:58):
that to be terribly, terriblytrue, and at the same time, we
know that people are sincerewhen they say they want world
peace.
But these things have a cost.
And so the measure of what webelieve is all Jesus is saying.
The real measure of what youbelieve, measure of what we
believe is all Jesus is saying,the real measure of what you
believe is what you do, and Ithink in the West in particular,
(15:18):
we've sort of read, I think.
Therefore, I am as if we canshape the world really by just
sitting in rooms and thinkingprofound thoughts, and that has
nothing to do with Jesus at all.
I mean, it's so profound thatJesus comes to us, god in flesh.
That action, the incarnation,proves this paradigm, that it is
(15:43):
even God decided to come and todo beyond creation so as to
help to persuade us that this isthe way to live.
Melissa (15:52):
Okay.
So I guess there's some tensionin me that I have to name,
because I heard what you saidabout trusting God and it's
really about trust and believingin God individually and then
collectively, and I feel likethe church sometimes gets in the
way of that.
In that I'm just saying therecould be a person like let's
(16:13):
take me, for example, I trustGod so fully and yet sometimes
there will be people in thechurch and I'll do this too to
others who, who have a problemwith some of the other beliefs
that say that very trustingperson in God, very mature faith
, who's just trying to livefaithfully and lovingly and you
(16:35):
know, for their neighbors andall the things, and yet
precludes them from fullbelonging simply because that
they might believe something alittle differently than someone
else.
That's real tension for me.
Bishop Wright (16:50):
Well, yeah, I mean there is tension in all of
this.
That's why I called it dividedloyalties.
I mean, you know there is realtension in it and you know life
with God is living with thattension and working through with
that.
You know, one of the ways tosay this a little bit cheeky, is
to say if we find in our lifewith God that we win all the
arguments with God, perhaps weneed an adjustment in our
(17:14):
relationship.
I think what we don't want totalk about when we talk about
belief and trusting God isobedience.
I think that's what we don'twant to talk about.
What we want is a God whobelieves with us, who believes
what we believe.
What we want is a God whobelieves with us, who believes
what we believe and who wants to.
You know, what we want is thisconversation to be a reversal of
polarity.
(17:34):
We believe as a response to whoGod is.
We believe it's not Godresponding to who.
We are Right, and I thinkthat's what we want.
We want God to disagree withthe people we disagree with.
We want God to vote the way wevote.
We want God to not like thepeople we don't like and so we
(17:57):
believe is, by definitionstretching.
I mean that is part of a maturefaith and part of that maturity
comes about.
There's no other way thanobedience.
So just because I don'tunderstand everything, I mean I
think belief means it doesn'tmean that I don't try everything
, right.
And so how do we please God?
The Bible tells us you cannotplease God without faith.
In other words, I've got to tryit, I've got to try.
(18:21):
It doesn't say it says itdoesn't say think and see that
the Lord is good Right.
It says taste and see that theLord is good.
Right, it says taste and seethat the Lord is good.
And so, if we want to be maturefollowers of Jesus, the truth
of the matter is is that we'regoing to have to do some things
that will be uncomfortable, livesome ways that are going to be
uncomfortable.
(18:41):
Let me give you a concreteexample.
When we say we believe, right,what we're saying is that we
trust God.
Now, all of us haverelationships that could be
better.
Some of us have relationshipsthat are terribly broken, right.
So Jesus gives us a concreteway to handle forgiveness and we
(19:09):
have decided, many of us.
We have decided that we knowbetter than Jesus about how to
handle family disputes,brokenness, marital discord.
We have decided that we knowbetter.
We have decided that we may be,on one level, aware of Jesus's
process that he's offering to us.
We have decided we're not goingto go that far, that that's a
(19:29):
bridge too far, that forgivingseven times 70 is too far, that
praying for those who abuse usand say nasty things about us is
a bridge too far.
We have decided right and I'msaying this as a sinner, I'm
saying this as someone, rob, whomisses the mark.
So that is a that is an exampleof what I mean.
(19:52):
We have decided to withholdParts of ourselves From this
sort of trust experiment withGod and then, having withheld
parts of ourselves, we havedecided to critique God as
somehow not able.
So that is a bit ridiculous whenyou think about it.
(20:14):
We've not tried the product andyet we want to criticize the
product, because what isactually true is I'm afraid, or
I'm too invested in my way, ormy ego, and this is why, you
know, I like to say, you know,in a matter of speaking, we had
to kill Jesus, because Jesuskept coming to us to say I
(20:37):
understand your ego, Iunderstand your wounds, I
understand your pain.
All of it's legitimate.
But I have a way to process allof that.
Won't you come and use my way,your wealth, your time, your
achievement, come and use theway that I've constructed so
that you can hold all thosethings in the best way.
(20:59):
And we have decided in manyways to say thanks, jesus, but
no thanks, yeah.
So it's evolving and so if I,as a preacher and a pastor,
don't bring you to thatintersection, I've not done my
job.
Now I'm not going to condemnyou or criticize you at that
(21:20):
intersection, but it's my job totell you, to describe at least,
and for my own self and for myown soul, what's at that
intersection.
Melissa (21:31):
Yeah, and so I'm thinking the word justice here.
How do we lean into trustingGod and also having the, I guess
, holding it in tension,understanding that this is very
much a personal and individualresponse to said trust, without
getting caught up in all of theshoulding and should notting on
(21:51):
other people?
Bishop Wright (21:52):
Yeah, we don't want to, should all over it,
right?
No, we don't.
Well, look, here's one way totalk about it.
You know we get racing to thesebig.
I mean, justice was a justice,was an individual idea, a
communal construct, before itbecame a nation-state construct.
Right, it became just dealingwith individuals.
(22:13):
I mean, if you go back to theOld Testament, it became a way
to sort of set guardrails in thecommunity before it became a
nation-state way to go.
And so here's what I wouldinvite us to think about.
What is that for us to reflecton?
Invite us to think about whatis that for us to reflect on?
What area of our lives might webe most out of alignment with
(22:33):
God and God's processes andGod's ways forward?
It may be in our finances.
It may be in our obsessive needto accumulate things that we
don't need.
It may be a broken relationship.
And let's start there.
I mean, we can't solve themacro today, but we might be
(22:56):
able to make some improvement onsomething personal today.
And so the gospel is not onlypersonal piety, but it does
start there, right?
Because I think there's no hopein many ways for justice and
just systems and equitablesystems if we as individuals
(23:19):
don't move our hearts in thatdirection, with the help of the
community and the grace ofAlmighty God.
So so you know, why should weexpect that a county in Georgia
would be more just, moreequitable, more kind, more
generous, if the households inthat county individually are not
(23:39):
moving in that direction?
It seems almost an impossibletask and a ridiculous ask.
And so I think that we startwhere we are, and where we are
is.
You know what have you riskedfor the gospel?
You know how have you extendedan olive branch?
Not because you necessarilywanted to, but because who you
(24:01):
say you are, who we say God is,is persuasive to you, god is is
persuasive to you.
So not my way, god, but yourway.
Even Jesus, you know, has toecho those words Not my will,
but thy will be done.
He says that at importantintersections at his life
perhaps the most importantintersection at his life and
(24:24):
when he says that thecrucifixion and the resurrection
are downstream of that.
But they all start with not mywill, god, but your will.
So if we really want to bemature believers, if we really
want to in flesh, we believewe've got to stand at these
intersections as best we can,relying on the grace and help of
(24:47):
God, informed by scripture, andtake that next hard step.
Jesus says you know, this ishow we interpret the times.
We interpret the times throughfaithful action and that's how
we move forward.
Melissa (25:02):
Amen, bishop, thank you , and thank you, listeners, for
listening to For People.
You can follow us on Instagramand Facebook at Bishop Rob
Wright, or by visiting www.
forpeople.
digital.
Please subscribe, leave areview and we'll be back with
you next week.
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