September 5, 2025 • 14 mins
True freedom emerges not from the world's prescription of unbridled self-indulgence, but through faithful obedience."Truth in advertising" is how Bishop Wright describes Jesus' approach to discipleship. Unlike our romantic relationships, where we rarely calculate what love will cost us before diving in, Jesus takes a refreshingly honest approach. He stands at the threshold and asks us to pause, reflect, and genuinely count the cost before committing to follow him.
In this episode, Melissa and Bishop Wright have a conversation that explores this radical invitation found in Luke 14, where Jesus uses hyperbolic language about "hating" family members not as a literal command, but to emphasize a hierarchy of commitments. When we prioritize pleasing others above following God's path, we become trapped in what Bishop Wright calls "the quicksand of people-pleasing," which ultimately diminishes our capacity for authentic discipleship. Listen in for the full conversation.
Read For Faith, the companion devotional.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Bishop Wright (00:00):
The invitation is come and see, come and know God
, you know, and I think what weend up getting as a collateral
benefit is knowing something ofourselves that we would not
otherwise know.
I have been a pastor for a longtime and I have met people over
the course of my ministry whohave been surprised at
(00:20):
themselves that intellectuallysitting at the sort of doorway,
if you will they could havenever imagined a life as
selfless as the life that theyend up living.
Melissa (00:40):
Welcome to Four People with Bishop Rob Wright.
I'm Melissa Rau and this is aconversation inspired by For
Faith, a weekly devotion sentout every Friday.
You can find a link to thisweek's For Faith and a link to
subscribe in the episode'sdescription.
Over the course of this nextseason, bishop Wright is framing
his devotions and ourconversations around the theme
(01:02):
We Believe as we make our waythrough the lectionary.
Good morning, bishop.
Bishop Wright (01:08):
Good morning.
For Good morning, how are you?
Melissa (01:10):
I'm well.
I am looking forward to ourthird topic under the banner we
Believe and this is all aboutthat.
We believe there is a cost tofollowing Jesus.
Bishop Wright (01:22):
Well, yeah, we believe that, not just randomly,
but we believe that in the 14thchapter of the gospel,
according to Luke, jesus says asmuch.
Right, he says that we ought tocount the costs, and so that's
how we get here.
Melissa (01:40):
Okay, and so you frame it by quoting David Brooks, the
author.
Now, the quote comes from DavidBrooks the Wrong Definition of
Love, and he, of course, is theauthor of the bestselling book
how to Know a Person, and so youkind of frame it through the
(02:00):
lens of David Brooks' quoteabout what it means to fall in
love through the lens of DavidBrooks's quote about what it
means to fall in love.
Bishop Wright (02:10):
Yeah, so before I get really going here, let me
just say that you know I read anumber of opinion pieces and
it's been interesting to watchDavid Brooks's evolution.
You know, I don't necessarily Imean, I take a lot of people's
points around politics andvarious other things but I've
been watching David Brooksaround ethics and morals for a
while now, and so he's beenstruck recently about, you know,
the eroding definition, or thewrongheaded definition of love.
(02:34):
And so this wonderful article,the Wrong Definition of Love it
was August 28th for those whowant to read it, august 28th of
this year the Wrong Definitionof Love.
And he writes and I think he'sright about this, he writes this
, and I quote what motivates usto falling in love is not a
decision to make for our ownbenefit, but a submission, a
(02:59):
poetic surrender that you assentto, often without counting the
cost right, so that, of course,thinking about the Bible and
seeing that word, it sort ofstruck the distinction that he's
making.
Now here's the distinction.
You know, when I met my wifeyou know we're walking down the
(03:21):
street and I was captured justby her beauty and got to know
something of her and wanted tospend more time with her.
We went to lunch the next dayWe've been together ever since
that's 28 years ago of whatmarriage would cost me in terms
(03:42):
of de-centering myself andcentering her needs and
negotiating you know all thethings that we do in a
relationship.
That's why we say that marriageis the most significant
spiritual formation that anybodycan ever do right.
So I never counted the cost.
We've been, we had one weddingand we've had about four
(04:04):
marriages, which means we keepgetting to intersections, where
we negotiate, where we learn,where we sort of push through
right.
But as Brooks says, it's, it'sa poetic surrender right that
you ascend to, and oftencertainly not in those days when
we met a long time ago, Ididn't sit down and do sort of a
(04:27):
pros and cons spreadsheet,right.
But Jesus does somethingdifferent.
He actually asks us to considerthe cost.
He actually asks us are yousure, do you want to walk this
way?
Let me tell you what this wayis like.
(04:47):
And then, in this wonderfullesson from the 14th chapter, he
tells us that there arecompeting loyalties here.
And do you want to move throughthese competing loyalties?
One of family, you knowcertainly possessions.
Do you want to move throughthat?
Do you want to keep thisjourney with God and Jesus
(05:09):
Christ?
Do you want to keep thatcentral?
And so what I like about thatis how respectful Jesus is.
I like to say that Jesus istruth in advertising, no sort of
bait and switch with Jesus.
Melissa (05:25):
Yeah, like I have this idea about negotiating and that
you just even shared that yourmarriage.
You've gone through fouriterations, if you will, and I
was going to say I think I'vebeen married more times than
that, bishop.
Bishop Wright (05:41):
Yeah.
Melissa (05:44):
But there's a negotiation and I appreciate the
fact that he's like you got tocount the costs, but I don't
know that he forecloses thesense that there might be
renegotiating or pivoting, ifyou will.
When we get it wrong and Ithink so many times folks are
like all right, yeah, you'vedone it, You're out, Goodbye.
Bishop Wright (06:28):
Yeah, no, I like love of spouses and of children,
that there are going to bedifficult seasons and that there
are going to be joyful, easyseasons, but that it's going to
be evolving.
And what happens is that we geta clarity as we go along, right
, and so there's even ahierarchy, and Jesus is talking
(06:48):
about this hierarchy.
He's saying, you know, power,possessions, prominence, all of
this sort of stuff that we allhave some degree of desire for,
and he uses hyperbolic language.
He says unless you hate motheror father, it's hyperbolic, just
to make a point, just to sayyou know, if we're going to keep
(07:11):
God first, then let us keep Godfirst, which is a good, I think
, warning and flag for us,because so many of us would be
better followers if I can usethat language if we didn't get
stuck in the quicksand ofpeople-pleasing, if we didn't
get stuck in the quicksand ofpeople pleasing and so that buys
us off, that lowers our ceiling.
(07:32):
So I like that he names that inthis relationship.
Melissa (08:01):
I saw a meme not too long ago and I reposted it on my
own Facebook page because itreally struck me.
It said something likeunconditional love does not mean
unconditional tolerance.
We need to unlearn that.
Bishop Wright (08:14):
Yeah.
Melissa (08:14):
And I've sat with that.
Do you have any thoughts onthat, Bishop?
Bishop Wright (08:18):
Well, it's just an important distinction that
this person is making.
I mean, some people get reallyworried and nervous that to talk
about unconditional love meansthat somehow Jesus is saying I'm
supposed to lay down and justbe a doormat for people and so
no.
So I like when people begin tosort of talk about I won't use
(08:41):
the term guardrails, but beginto talk about the distinctions
that are in relationship.
Yeah, no, in fact, jesus isgoing the extra mile himself so
that, so that we care forourselves in this relationship
with him, by saying you know,count the costs.
Is this the direction youreally want for your life?
Do you want to go with me?
Do you want to travel with me?
And here's what the landscapeis like up ahead.
(09:05):
I think that Jesus treats uswith incredible dignity, right,
and you know and this is, Ithink you know, he's not a bully
, right, it's always aninvitation.
I mean, there's no condemnationin this.
He's just simply describing forus that, if you want to come,
this is what's involved, right,and so you know what I like
(09:26):
about that is there's space forgrowth.
I say the best yes I can today,understanding that that yes is
going to get clarified.
It's likely going to get deeper, it could get broader, you know
, and sometimes people get tointersections where they realize
they've gone as far as theywant to go and that's it.
(09:51):
And then sometimes people,because of love, because of
wanting to put God first, theyend up well beyond what they
thought was possible, not onlyfor themselves but in terms of
their relationship with God.
So yeah, jesus is basicallyjust standing at the door, if
you will, opening the door andsaying, hey, come on if you like
.
I don't know where we gettreated better than that.
(10:14):
Only, if you like.
No condemnation, no shame, noguilt.
And, of course, he encounterspeople all through the Gospels
where he does exactly the samething.
Melissa (10:23):
Okay, so I'm sitting with the tension of the
transactional connotation of allof this.
You know, cost investment andjuxtaposed by free, and so I get
that and I think it's wonderfuland good.
And so how does one enter into?
By putting down?
(10:43):
Is it expectations?
Can someone have expectationsfor entering the door?
Yeah, understanding the cost.
Bishop Wright (10:53):
Sure, of course.
I mean, I think the psalmistsays taste and see, right.
So I think that the invitationis come and see, come and know
God, and I think what we end upgetting as a collateral benefit
is knowing something ofourselves that we would not
otherwise know.
I think we grow.
(11:14):
I mean, I have been a pastorfor a long time and I have met
people over the course of myministry who have been surprised
at themselves thatintellectually, sitting at the
sort of doorway, if you will,they could have never imagined a
life as selfless as the lifethat they end up living.
(11:34):
You know, I think it's amazingto watch young ladies become
mothers and then become thisreservoir of self-giving.
You know, and many of them aresort of blown away, that this
little thing, little helplessthing, could pull out of them
(11:55):
such selflessness.
Right, and so this is, you know, what Jesus does is.
You know, he just sort ofdescribes life.
And you know, as to freedom, youknow, I mean talking about a
contrast or talking about sortof an irony is that the freedom
(12:23):
actually comes out of obediencewhen it comes to God.
Right, I mean, that's, that'swhat we are selling, if we're
selling anything, which is this,you know, what does the world
say?
The world says get a bunch ofstuff, get a bunch of power, you
know, use your sexualityhaphazardly hither and yon, no
(12:45):
guardrails on it.
And then we say that's free.
Abuse your body, you know, takein lots of substances, and then
you'll be free, right.
And then what we find, however,experientially, is that I'm not
free.
I find that I'm a slave, then,to hedonism, I'm a slave to
brokenness, I'm addicted to allthese sorts of things.
(13:06):
And so, you know, the otherside of that coin is come and
give yourself to a God thatloves you and wants better for
you than you could ever want foryourself.
Now, that sounds like freedom.
And, as I say at the end of themeditation, free from the
seductive grip of possessions,power and prominence Not that
(13:32):
those things can't accrue to us,but that you're not a slave to
them.
Now, that's freedom.
I'm not a slave to people'sopinions, right.
I'm not a slave to all thesesorts of things.
I've found a path in life thatI know that God deeply cares for
me and that I, in response tothat great love and care, now
(13:54):
respond, I show up in the worldas compassionate.
Now, that's freedom.
Melissa (14:00):
And we believe that there is a cost to following
Jesus.
Bishop Wright (14:03):
We absolutely do believe it.
We have to get over a lot ofsilliness and get on with some
good living.
Melissa (14:16):
Thank you for your thoughts and thank you,
listeners, for tuning in to ForPeople.
You can follow us on Instagramand Facebook at Bishop Rob
Wright, or by visiting www.
forpeople.
digital.
Please subscribe, leave areview and we'll be back with
you next week.
The invitation is come and see, come and know God
, you know, and I think what weend up getting as a collateral
benefit is knowing something ofourselves that we would not
otherwise know.
I have been a pastor for a longtime and I have met people over
the course of my ministry whohave been surprised at
(00:20):
themselves that intellectuallysitting at the sort of doorway,
if you will they could havenever imagined a life as
selfless as the life that theyend up living.
Melissa (00:40):
Welcome to Four People with Bishop Rob Wright.
I'm Melissa Rau and this is aconversation inspired by For
Faith, a weekly devotion sentout every Friday.
You can find a link to thisweek's For Faith and a link to
subscribe in the episode'sdescription.
Over the course of this nextseason, bishop Wright is framing
his devotions and ourconversations around the theme
(01:02):
We Believe as we make our waythrough the lectionary.
Good morning, bishop.
Bishop Wright (01:08):
Good morning.
For Good morning, how are you?
Melissa (01:10):
I'm well.
I am looking forward to ourthird topic under the banner we
Believe and this is all aboutthat.
We believe there is a cost tofollowing Jesus.
Bishop Wright (01:22):
Well, yeah, we believe that, not just randomly,
but we believe that in the 14thchapter of the gospel,
according to Luke, jesus says asmuch.
Right, he says that we ought tocount the costs, and so that's
how we get here.
Melissa (01:40):
Okay, and so you frame it by quoting David Brooks, the
author.
Now, the quote comes from DavidBrooks the Wrong Definition of
Love, and he, of course, is theauthor of the bestselling book
how to Know a Person, and so youkind of frame it through the
(02:00):
lens of David Brooks' quoteabout what it means to fall in
love through the lens of DavidBrooks's quote about what it
means to fall in love.
Bishop Wright (02:10):
Yeah, so before I get really going here, let me
just say that you know I read anumber of opinion pieces and
it's been interesting to watchDavid Brooks's evolution.
You know, I don't necessarily Imean, I take a lot of people's
points around politics andvarious other things but I've
been watching David Brooksaround ethics and morals for a
while now, and so he's beenstruck recently about, you know,
the eroding definition, or thewrongheaded definition of love.
(02:34):
And so this wonderful article,the Wrong Definition of Love it
was August 28th for those whowant to read it, august 28th of
this year the Wrong Definitionof Love.
And he writes and I think he'sright about this, he writes this
, and I quote what motivates usto falling in love is not a
decision to make for our ownbenefit, but a submission, a
(02:59):
poetic surrender that you assentto, often without counting the
cost right, so that, of course,thinking about the Bible and
seeing that word, it sort ofstruck the distinction that he's
making.
Now here's the distinction.
You know, when I met my wifeyou know we're walking down the
(03:21):
street and I was captured justby her beauty and got to know
something of her and wanted tospend more time with her.
We went to lunch the next dayWe've been together ever since
that's 28 years ago of whatmarriage would cost me in terms
(03:42):
of de-centering myself andcentering her needs and
negotiating you know all thethings that we do in a
relationship.
That's why we say that marriageis the most significant
spiritual formation that anybodycan ever do right.
So I never counted the cost.
We've been, we had one weddingand we've had about four
(04:04):
marriages, which means we keepgetting to intersections, where
we negotiate, where we learn,where we sort of push through
right.
But as Brooks says, it's, it'sa poetic surrender right that
you ascend to, and oftencertainly not in those days when
we met a long time ago, Ididn't sit down and do sort of a
(04:27):
pros and cons spreadsheet,right.
But Jesus does somethingdifferent.
He actually asks us to considerthe cost.
He actually asks us are yousure, do you want to walk this
way?
Let me tell you what this wayis like.
(04:47):
And then, in this wonderfullesson from the 14th chapter, he
tells us that there arecompeting loyalties here.
And do you want to move throughthese competing loyalties?
One of family, you knowcertainly possessions.
Do you want to move throughthat?
Do you want to keep thisjourney with God and Jesus
(05:09):
Christ?
Do you want to keep thatcentral?
And so what I like about thatis how respectful Jesus is.
I like to say that Jesus istruth in advertising, no sort of
bait and switch with Jesus.
Melissa (05:25):
Yeah, like I have this idea about negotiating and that
you just even shared that yourmarriage.
You've gone through fouriterations, if you will, and I
was going to say I think I'vebeen married more times than
that, bishop.
Bishop Wright (05:41):
Yeah.
Melissa (05:44):
But there's a negotiation and I appreciate the
fact that he's like you got tocount the costs, but I don't
know that he forecloses thesense that there might be
renegotiating or pivoting, ifyou will.
When we get it wrong and Ithink so many times folks are
like all right, yeah, you'vedone it, You're out, Goodbye.
Bishop Wright (06:28):
Yeah, no, I like love of spouses and of children,
that there are going to bedifficult seasons and that there
are going to be joyful, easyseasons, but that it's going to
be evolving.
And what happens is that we geta clarity as we go along, right
, and so there's even ahierarchy, and Jesus is talking
(06:48):
about this hierarchy.
He's saying, you know, power,possessions, prominence, all of
this sort of stuff that we allhave some degree of desire for,
and he uses hyperbolic language.
He says unless you hate motheror father, it's hyperbolic, just
to make a point, just to sayyou know, if we're going to keep
(07:11):
God first, then let us keep Godfirst, which is a good, I think
, warning and flag for us,because so many of us would be
better followers if I can usethat language if we didn't get
stuck in the quicksand ofpeople-pleasing, if we didn't
get stuck in the quicksand ofpeople pleasing and so that buys
us off, that lowers our ceiling.
(07:32):
So I like that he names that inthis relationship.
Melissa (08:01):
I saw a meme not too long ago and I reposted it on my
own Facebook page because itreally struck me.
It said something likeunconditional love does not mean
unconditional tolerance.
We need to unlearn that.
Bishop Wright (08:14):
Yeah.
Melissa (08:14):
And I've sat with that.
Do you have any thoughts onthat, Bishop?
Bishop Wright (08:18):
Well, it's just an important distinction that
this person is making.
I mean, some people get reallyworried and nervous that to talk
about unconditional love meansthat somehow Jesus is saying I'm
supposed to lay down and justbe a doormat for people and so
no.
So I like when people begin tosort of talk about I won't use
(08:41):
the term guardrails, but beginto talk about the distinctions
that are in relationship.
Yeah, no, in fact, jesus isgoing the extra mile himself so
that, so that we care forourselves in this relationship
with him, by saying you know,count the costs.
Is this the direction youreally want for your life?
Do you want to go with me?
Do you want to travel with me?
And here's what the landscapeis like up ahead.
(09:05):
I think that Jesus treats uswith incredible dignity, right,
and you know and this is, Ithink you know, he's not a bully
, right, it's always aninvitation.
I mean, there's no condemnationin this.
He's just simply describing forus that, if you want to come,
this is what's involved, right,and so you know what I like
(09:26):
about that is there's space forgrowth.
I say the best yes I can today,understanding that that yes is
going to get clarified.
It's likely going to get deeper, it could get broader, you know
, and sometimes people get tointersections where they realize
they've gone as far as theywant to go and that's it.
(09:51):
And then sometimes people,because of love, because of
wanting to put God first, theyend up well beyond what they
thought was possible, not onlyfor themselves but in terms of
their relationship with God.
So yeah, jesus is basicallyjust standing at the door, if
you will, opening the door andsaying, hey, come on if you like
.
I don't know where we gettreated better than that.
(10:14):
Only, if you like.
No condemnation, no shame, noguilt.
And, of course, he encounterspeople all through the Gospels
where he does exactly the samething.
Melissa (10:23):
Okay, so I'm sitting with the tension of the
transactional connotation of allof this.
You know, cost investment andjuxtaposed by free, and so I get
that and I think it's wonderfuland good.
And so how does one enter into?
By putting down?
(10:43):
Is it expectations?
Can someone have expectationsfor entering the door?
Yeah, understanding the cost.
Bishop Wright (10:53):
Sure, of course.
I mean, I think the psalmistsays taste and see, right.
So I think that the invitationis come and see, come and know
God, and I think what we end upgetting as a collateral benefit
is knowing something ofourselves that we would not
otherwise know.
I think we grow.
(11:14):
I mean, I have been a pastorfor a long time and I have met
people over the course of myministry who have been surprised
at themselves thatintellectually, sitting at the
sort of doorway, if you will,they could have never imagined a
life as selfless as the lifethat they end up living.
(11:34):
You know, I think it's amazingto watch young ladies become
mothers and then become thisreservoir of self-giving.
You know, and many of them aresort of blown away, that this
little thing, little helplessthing, could pull out of them
(11:55):
such selflessness.
Right, and so this is, you know, what Jesus does is.
You know, he just sort ofdescribes life.
And you know, as to freedom, youknow, I mean talking about a
contrast or talking about sortof an irony is that the freedom
(12:23):
actually comes out of obediencewhen it comes to God.
Right, I mean, that's, that'swhat we are selling, if we're
selling anything, which is this,you know, what does the world
say?
The world says get a bunch ofstuff, get a bunch of power, you
know, use your sexualityhaphazardly hither and yon, no
(12:45):
guardrails on it.
And then we say that's free.
Abuse your body, you know, takein lots of substances, and then
you'll be free, right.
And then what we find, however,experientially, is that I'm not
free.
I find that I'm a slave, then,to hedonism, I'm a slave to
brokenness, I'm addicted to allthese sorts of things.
(13:06):
And so, you know, the otherside of that coin is come and
give yourself to a God thatloves you and wants better for
you than you could ever want foryourself.
Now, that sounds like freedom.
And, as I say at the end of themeditation, free from the
seductive grip of possessions,power and prominence Not that
(13:32):
those things can't accrue to us,but that you're not a slave to
them.
Now, that's freedom.
I'm not a slave to people'sopinions, right.
I'm not a slave to all thesesorts of things.
I've found a path in life thatI know that God deeply cares for
me and that I, in response tothat great love and care, now
(13:54):
respond, I show up in the worldas compassionate.
Now, that's freedom.
Melissa (14:00):
And we believe that there is a cost to following
Jesus.
Bishop Wright (14:03):
We absolutely do believe it.
We have to get over a lot ofsilliness and get on with some
good living.
Melissa (14:16):
Thank you for your thoughts and thank you,
listeners, for tuning in to ForPeople.
You can follow us on Instagramand Facebook at Bishop Rob
Wright, or by visiting www.
forpeople.
digital.
Please subscribe, leave areview and we'll be back with
you next week.
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