September 17, 2025 • 28 mins
What happens when you discover your family tree has branches on both sides of America's racial divide? Dr. Spenser Simrill Jr.'s journey began with simple curiosity about his family name and evolved into a profound story of reconciliation that's now a CNN documentary premiering September 21, 2025 at 10p.
In this episode, Bishop Wright has a conversation with Dr. Spenser Simrill Jr. about his discovery while teaching family history at the University of Georgia. Spenser found an alternate spelling of his surname that unlocked an unexpected connection – in 1871, a Black woman named Harriet Simrill testified against the Ku Klux Klan in a federal Reconstruction trial. Given the distinctive nature of his family name, Spenser realized there must be a connection through enslavement. This suspicion was confirmed when he found a Facebook suggestion for a Black man his age from his father's hometown with the original spelling of their shared surname.
Eleven years later, the two families reunite annually, have produced an Audible podcast called "Once Removed: An American Family Reunion," and are featured in CNN's "A Family in Black and White." Their story challenges the notion that denial is the only way to handle difficult historical truths. Instead, Spenser demonstrates how confronting these realities leads to healing and wholeness. Spenser's work reminds us that we are one human family despite our painful history. By choosing to be storytellers who look unflinchingly at reality, we become "peace warriors" committed to recognizing our fundamental interconnectedness. Listen in for the full conversation.
Dr. Spenser Simrill Jr, is the creator of the Once Removed podcast and a TEDx speaker on racial healing. His research has informed reconciliation efforts in Northern Ireland, Liberia, and across the American South—culminating in the first historical marker in South Carolina to mention the Ku Klux Klan.
His work has appeared on CNN’s The Whole Story with Anderson Cooper, Audible Originals, The New York Times, Pitchfork, Rolling Stone, and TEDx Asheville.
His students have won multiple international competitions, including two wins and an honorable mention in The New York Times Best Student Podcast Contest. Spenser lives with his family in Arden, North Carolina, and teaches at Christ School.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Spenser Simrill Jr. (00:00):
If you look at the research from trauma
, very often we find theseburied truths manifested in
alcohol addiction and drug abuse.
And you're not, I don't thinkyou're living your full human
potential if you don't know thewhole story.
There's research that showsthat a knowledge of family
(00:22):
history is the best indicator ofemotional resilience and
academic success.
Bishop Wright (00:40):
Hi everyone.
This is Bishop Rob Wright andthis is For People.
Special guest today, specialguest, wonderful guest today
Spenser Simrill Jr..
So I wanted to have you on thepodcast because you're up to
(01:27):
some wonderful work.
So before we get to our work,why don't you tell us a little
bit about what you do, and thenwe'll move to the reason for the
podcast?
Dr. Spenser Simrill Jr. (01:36):
Hey everybody, I'm a writer,
producer and educator and 11years ago I was teaching a
course on family history at theUniversity of Georgia and I was
about to get married and I wascurious about, you know, my, our
lineage and I'm watching HenryLouis Gates on TV and I feel
(01:58):
like he's talking to me.
I mean, I just feel like thatand just this process of taking
people on ancestral journeys andusing 21st century research
tools.
You know, my students and I, wewere going to do this because I
was curious myself and I foundan alternate spelling of our
(02:23):
family's last name, found analternate spelling of our
family's last name.
My great-grandfather playedfootball for the South Carolina
Gamecocks during the Jim Crowera and in 1916, in the
newspaper the name isS-I-M-R-I-L with one L, and then
in the yearbook and when hemarried, there's a second L.
(02:45):
So I ran that original spellingthrough Google Books, which is
digitized.
It's like Googling yourself.
I don't know if y'all at homehave ever done that, but you're
doing that through time andspace, like through all.
Pretty much all printed materialhas been scanned and I find, in
1871, a 30-year-old blackmother of four named Harriet
(03:09):
Simrell testified against the KuKlux Klan in a federal
reconstruction trial.
And this is just like whoa,because with our last name being
(03:32):
so distinct, I realized thatthere had to be a connection of
enslavement, that my ancestorshad clearly enslaved Harriet.
And then I find throughFacebook a friend's suggestion
for a black guy my same age,from Rock Hill, South Carolina,
where my dad's from, with one L,with the original spelling.
And I had to back up from thecomputer and just take a long
walk, a long prayerful walk.
(03:55):
You know, lord, what do I dowith this information?
So fast forward, 11 years.
Our families have met.
We get together every year fora reunion.
Hopefully I can share some do'sand don'ts about how
potentially that can go down.
(04:16):
We've produced a podcastthrough Audible, once removed,
an American family reunion.
We have a TED Talk, tedxAsheville, delivered last year,
and now we are the feature of aCNN documentary, a Family in
Black and White, hosted byAnderson Cooper, reporting by
(04:40):
Sarah Seidner the great SarahSeidner and we were supposed to
air last Sunday, but theescalation of the Middle East,
we're still waiting on that dateto be reconfirmed.
Bishop Wright (04:56):
You know, I saw the trailer, if you will, of
this and it just affirms for mewhat I've been saying for years
is that we are one big,complicated American family
right.
And you know, you see a pushthese days to sort of paper over
(05:19):
the complication that's alivein your story, that we are both.
We are one thing and we aredifferent things and we are knit
together and we have hurt eachother and we've tried to make
amends.
(05:40):
We're all of those things atthe same time and so you know in
a really visceral way, you knowyou're just a wonderful example
of this.
So how did you push throughthis?
If I can ask, because you know,when I talk to people and we
talk about racial reconciliationand healing, your dad, your
family, has talked about thatfor years here in Atlanta,
(06:06):
talked about that for years herein Atlanta.
How do you encourage people?
What do you say to people whosay you know, I don't want to
know the stories.
That was then.
This is now.
If I go back, what will I find?
How do I handle perhaps someguilt or shame?
What do you say to those folks?
Dr. Spenser Simrill Jr. (06:18):
Well, there's a choice.
What happens if you don't lookat it?
I mean, if you look at theresearch from trauma, very often
we find find these buriedtruths manifested in alcohol
addiction and and and and anddrug abuse.
And you're not, I don't thinkyou're living your full human
(06:44):
potential If you don't know thewhole story.
There's research that showsthat a knowledge of family
history is the best indicator ofemotional resilience and
academic success, and so, yes,it can be nerve wracking for a
while.
I think my family knew aboutthis subconsciously the whole
(07:08):
time and I think none of thewhite or the black symbols had
known about Harriet and hertestimony consciously, but I
think it was buried deep withinour psyches and our bodies and
you know it's also, you knowthere's an element of choice you
(07:29):
can't force anybody to do stuffbut there's also a body of
evidence showing thetransformative power of
knowledge, especially informedby faith, that I hope, hopefully
, could steal or encouragepeople to go on the journey.
Bishop Wright (07:48):
You know, one of the things I like to say is that
as we live with faith, that is,as we live with God, as God's
words and God's ways begin tosort of touch our hearts, one of
the indicators of that is thatwe increase our appetite to tell
and to hear truth right.
(08:10):
One of the great markers of amature spirituality is that we
can let reality be reality right, and so your story says that
right.
Is that?
You know?
Because if I, if I've got myfacts right, you know, your dad
and a member of let's call themthe Black Semerals met at
(08:33):
Kentucky Fried Chicken as aninitial meeting and began to
talk about Harriet, that painfuland courageous thing that she
did.
Painful thing she went through,but courageous thing she did in
response.
Dr. Spenser Simrill Jr. (08:51):
That was a hell of a first meeting.
I mean, you can't make it upreally.
No, I was talking to Debrayesterday she's just fantastic
in the documentary and shecalled it.
The Kentucky fried meeting iswhat she called it and one of
the cool things that we did iswe started sketching our family
(09:13):
trees out, you know, just tryingto get to know each other, um,
and to see, um, what's.
I think what's cool about theseprojects is is, as you learn
about the deep history, youbecome invested in the, in the,
in the, in the present and thedescendants of it.
And it goes the other way, likeonce you, once you develop a
(09:38):
bond with somebody, then itmakes you more curious about you
, know their ancestors, like how, how we got here?
Bishop Wright (09:49):
Yeah, I mean you know I've I've talked a little
bit about this on the podcastbefore um, you know I'm adopted
uh and uh because of, uh, youknow some genetic stuff and my
wife's you know sort of tirelessuh research, I found my
biological mother, found mymother, therefore found my Irish
sort of family, and thank Godthey're still alive and I can
(10:11):
talk to them and we talkregularly and have a laugh and
it's wonderful just to get thatstory and found out that that
side of my family had been inthe country since 1730.
So before America was AmericaRight, and then and then on the
other side of it, we just sortof found my father's side,
african-american, who comesthrough Kentucky as a coal miner
(10:34):
, through Tennessee as laborersand farmers down into Columbus,
Tennessee.
You know Mississippi, you knowso just just you.
You learn these amazing journeysand you know through these,
these tools that we now haveavailable, you learn the stories
and there really are incrediblestories and you know, I feel
(10:55):
like I stand just a bit tallerknowing more about those stories
.
I feel like maybe I'm a littlebit more mature about
understanding human nature andhow all of us fall short and I
think I feel a little bit morehopeful in that if we can face
(11:19):
some of these things and and youknow these hard parts it
actually builds bridges withother people.
You know I can bring a littlebit of understanding bridges
with other people.
You know I can bring a littlebit of understanding to your
messiness if I can stand in myown messiness.
Dr. Spenser Simrill Jr. (11:30):
You know what I mean?
Yeah Well, just the emotionsyou described the awe, the
curiosity, the humility, thehope, the empathy.
I mean that's all what happens,you know, by going on this deep
, on this deep, deep dive.
Bishop Wright (12:14):
Well, you know, what your journey Spenser,
really does affirm is that wedon't have to be caught up in
denial.
Denial is not the only way wecan tend to our messy histories,
right.
That we don't have to be caughtup in denial.
Denial is not the only way wecan tend to our messy histories,
right?
It's pretty spirituallycourageous just to say I'm not
gonna use denial as an optionhere and to use clinical
(12:38):
language.
When we don't do that, weactually embark on a journey
where we might actuallyintegrate all the parts of who
we are right and that's wholly,literally, wholly and wholesome
is to integrate.
You know, I'm all these thingsall at one time.
And so what are you teachingyoung people?
How's this?
Dr. Spenser Simrill Jr. (12:57):
touch your time with young people and
informing them, and so what'sneat about it is is the students
are also learning researchskills.
You know.
They're learning like archives,how they're cataloged.
They're learning the rolebetween primary sources and
(13:18):
secondary sources.
They're learning interviewskills.
They're learning 21st centurycomputer stuff, as far as you
know, producing a podcast or avideo and it's yeah.
So I feel like they're gettinga lot.
I want to circle back real quickto what your talk about denial
(13:42):
and our story was denied for atleast 50 years.
Harriet's testimony and theKlan trials in York County,
south Carolina, are the sourcematerial for the Birth of a
Nation, the infamous DW Griffithfilm, and there's a recent
(14:06):
study from Harvard that afterthat film came out, in counties
where the film was shown,lynchings rose 500%.
So I'm in talk now to develop amuseum exhibit with the
Smithsonian National Museum ofAfrican American History and
(14:27):
Culture and I really think thisis this presents a moral
crossroads, like with our story,if you engage the truth and you
go through the thorns, this isthe briar patch of the South.
Right here it can be healing,it can be transformative.
(14:47):
If you deny it, if you lookaway, it can lead to propaganda,
it can lead to violence.
So you can see Harriet'stestimony and you know it's
something that you can't turnaway from.
(15:07):
It's there, it's visceral, hercourage.
There's also a movement back toLiberia.
That the Black Semerals shegave up the chance to begin a
(15:29):
new life in Arlington and that'sbeen amazing is reconciling
with them.
When we unveiled the firsthistorical marker in South
Carolina to mention the Ku KluxKlan they came for the unveiling
and we had never met thembefore and so all of a sudden
they show up and it's just sofun and just amazing.
Beautiful, resilient people andyou know, so like now I have
(15:52):
cousins, who I have cousins inthree continents.
Now, you know, through this,through this journey, I'm
profoundly grateful and justexcited to to learn other
people's stories.
And just excited to learn otherpeople's stories, I'm
(16:13):
developing a children's bookabout Reverend Elias Hill, who
was the leader of the Liberianmigration.
So trying to tell the story andshare it with people of all
ages and interests, it's reallyexciting.
Bishop Wright (16:25):
It's really exciting.
You know, this storytelling bitis one of the most subversive
things we can do, right.
I mean, you know, one of thethings that Empire does right is
Empire it decides on.
You know what can be said andwhat can't be said, what can
enter into speech, what can't beentered into speech.
(16:47):
And then you know, the biblicalrecord is a record of men and
women who decided to speak, youknow, kinship and speak family,
and speak revolution in somecases, and speak faith and speak
hope, and really, you know, inways that the empire was really
(17:07):
uncomfortable with, and that'swhy we kill the prophets and,
ultimately, that's why we killJesus, because they embody and
speak possibilities that areinconvenient for the empire.
So you know, you, determining ordeciding just to continue to
tell this story of kinship, of,of um, of uh, of moving forward,
(17:29):
of denial, is not an option,really is subversive, um, you
know, because if we keep thesestories alive, uh, I think we
keep reality in the room, right,and and we're not sort of
overwhelmed, uh, by all these,uh, you know, these manicured
stories that were being sort offorce fed, that the world is
messy, that we are, that we'relinked, ultimately, um, uh, that
(17:51):
, uh, that truth is inconvenientand yet that truth has its
benefit.
I mean, this is what you'resaying by doing the work that
you're doing and you're tryingto get this into the hands of,
you know, lots of differentkinds of age groups.
So this is just truly amazing.
I'm so glad that this came toCNN's attention and that they're
going to give it some air.
(18:11):
How did CNN get involved?
Dr. Spenser Simrill Jr. (18:14):
I had a friend from college who works
there, and we had a hurricane,of course, in October and I had
a little bit of— Asheville washit very hard.
Yeah, mainly where we are.
We're up on on a plateau, so itwas more like a tornado, uh.
But we didn't have food or wedidn't.
(18:36):
We had food, we didn't havepower or water for a couple
weeks and I just pitched myfriend this idea and it's just
sort of slowly, slowly, slowlymade its way up, and what what I
admire and appreciate workingwith them is their rigorous fact
checking.
So after we were done, it tookabout three weeks.
(18:57):
Every single claim they neededto see a paper trail of evidence
and luckily I had it.
People don't know this, butthere was a chance in American
history for black people'sfamily structures as it was
originally intended to berecorded in the 1850 census and
(19:21):
it made a debate to the Senatefloor and really I think it made
the white folks on the bigplantations.
It was just too muchinformation and too much too
much exposure for them, too muchhumanity, and so they replaced
(19:42):
the quote names of slaves withnumbers of slaves and
effectively erased a hundredyears of black family history.
So now to go back before 1870,you really have to go into the
white folks' records.
So we had this Moses-likefigure and if you want to find
his story, his family story.
Before then you have to go lookinto the house of the Pharaoh.
(20:03):
But what that potentially doesis, in the South, 46% of
families in South Carolina in1860 enslaved human beings.
But what it can do is it cancreate a shared project where
you can't separate one familystory from the other.
And I went to Northern Irelandwith my dad.
(20:25):
We went on a peace march inDerry, the side of Bloody Sunday
, with a Catholic high schooland a Protestant high school.
And what was remarkable aboutthis is, in doing so, these
young kids have a sharedexperience of the past.
There's no alternative facts.
They know that this happenedand they learn it together and
(20:46):
then, in doing so, they havebonds and friendships forming in
the present that ultimately isgoing to change the whole tenor
of the nation.
So we sort of did thatinadvertently, michael Simerle
and I he's my, he's my blackcousin, you know the same age.
You know, by us going tolibraries, going to historical
(21:09):
reenactments, us go intolibraries, go into historical
reenactments, you know we turnsomething that we that could
potentially divide us into aunifying and a healing moment.
And you know our friendshipscontinue to strengthen through
the days.
And you know it just it's.
It's really really I thinkabout them and and and pray for
them and with them, and it'sjust awesome, yeah, and pray for
(21:31):
them and with them and it'sjust awesome.
Bishop Wright (21:37):
Yeah, you know there, you know we talked about,
you know, I talked about oneindicator of sort of spiritual
maturity being, you know, thatwe can increase our ability to
tell and hear reality and truth.
You know, the second indicatorI would say would be sort of
giving up all claims toseparateness and superiority,
Right, and so you know, that'sthe thing.
(21:58):
As we move along and your workis sort of revealing that even
that pilgrimage you went on isis there.
You know, ultimately therereally is no other.
Ultimately we are together,Ultimately we're knit together.
Yeah, we've had tragic andterrible fights.
Division continues to bedevilus, but you know, if we can find
(22:18):
the courage and the empathy, wereally realize that.
I mean, it's honestly sad tosay we have so much more in
common.
Yeah, that's true, but alsothat we're actually just the
same.
We're actually just a humanfamily.
You know, people talk about ahuman race and I'm like you know
what the hell are we?
Where are we racing to?
We're a human family.
We always have been, since ourancestor walked out of East
(22:41):
Africa, We've always been thesame.
We judge each other by, youknow, these adaptations that
come to all of us just becauseof climate and superficial
factors, but we are the actualsame.
The mitochondrial DNA says weare a family and so you know, I
think these kinds of what wemight call peace warriors, right
(23:02):
, People who are going to wagewar on the side of peace, which
means brotherhood and sisterhoodand shared humanity.
This is what I hope.
Faith is the message, thatfaith in all of our houses of
worship, our Jewish temples, ourMuslim mosques, our Christian
churches.
This is what I hope is reallythe sermon every Sunday.
(23:23):
To some degree or the other,We've found ourselves and locked
ourselves into these tragiccul-de-sacs.
We see it now in Gaza, we see itin Ukraine, we see it all over
the world, we see it in Congo,we see it in all these places.
But ultimately, if we couldever get to the place where we
(23:43):
simply realized that I'm yoursand you're mine, we belong to
each other Our DNA says it righthow much different the world
would be.
It sounds even so silly andsyrupy to say it out loud
because immediately people saywell, that sounds great on
Sunday morning, for instance inthe sermon, but in the real
(24:04):
world, right?
So we have decided that realityreally is not this, but reality
is war, war and war, and so I'malways grateful for these kinds
of stories and people like you,frankly, who have just decided
to zoom out and see the truth.
Dr. Spenser Simrill Jr. (24:20):
Well, thank you, and I mentioned to
your producer, easton, that youressay on the American South as
our holy land was deeplyinspiring and that really
encouraged me to create thishistorical marker and to view
the South where we are, as thisplace for healing, and it
(24:46):
definitely also helped mereconcile whatever conflicted
feelings I have about the pastand about the South.
So it's, it's really great tobe here.
It's another reminder thatwe're all branches of the same
same human tree.
We're all made in the image ofGod and I love this podcast.
Bishop Wright (25:08):
I'm really, really honored, honored to be on
it no-transcript that you knowmy ancestors come right up out
(25:42):
of enslavement.
You know in Columbus,mississippi, and out of the soil
in Tennessee and deep into theearth.
You know in coal mining inKentucky.
So I mean, you know, what doesour subconscious know?
That is only just now, you know, trying to find its way to the
surface, right Into our lips.
Last question for you you knowyou're a dad, yeah, yeah.
(26:06):
So say a little bit about yourfamily.
And then what do you tell thekids about this piece of work
that dad is doing?
I mean, do they get to go tosome of these family reunions
and gatherings?
Dr. Spenser Simrill Jr. (26:23):
And what are their questions when
they go to these gatherings.
Well, that was one of the mainreasons why we did it is we saw
that we're doing this in thepresence of children and we want
to present the best version ofourselves, like we don't want to
be judgmental or prejudicedaround our kids, and so I think
my kids have experiencedintegration on a subconscious
(26:45):
level, before they ever knewabout slavery or civil rights,
where they'd go to these familygatherings.
And my son, when he becameinterested in computers, he
would Google the funny namesSimril and Vaughn, white folks
and black folks, and you know tohim it was all one.
But now I think that they'relearning about these things in
(27:08):
school.
They're going twins, boy we'regoing into the fourth grade.
You know we were reading thesebooks, like you know who was
Harriet Tubman and who wasGandhi, and and you know we're
using this as this, as ateachable moment, you know, for
hopefully for them to be more,to be kinder and more, more
(27:30):
empathetic and curious and andgrateful that that we don't have
these, these institutionalseparations, you know, keeping
us apart.
Bishop Wright (27:45):
Yeah, Wonderful.
Yeah, we're doing what we do inthe presence of children.
That's the takeaway.
You know what we say.
What we achieve you know I'mreally arrested by a quote that
I heard the other day is that,you know, people are actually
not the sum total of their goals, they're the sum total of their
(28:06):
choices, Right, and so that'sjust at a granular level.
We are the people who make thechoices that we make.
You know, the good news isthere's grace in all of that,
but but you've made a choice.
You've made a choice to be astoryteller.
You've made a choice to notlook away but to look, look in
and and we're grateful, Spenser.
(28:28):
Brothers and sisters, we arewith Spenser Simrill Jr..
If you look at the research from trauma
, very often we find theseburied truths manifested in
alcohol addiction and drug abuse.
And you're not, I don't thinkyou're living your full human
potential if you don't know thewhole story.
There's research that showsthat a knowledge of family
(00:22):
history is the best indicator ofemotional resilience and
academic success.
Bishop Wright (00:40):
Hi everyone.
This is Bishop Rob Wright andthis is For People.
Special guest today, specialguest, wonderful guest today
Spenser Simrill Jr..
So I wanted to have you on thepodcast because you're up to
(01:27):
some wonderful work.
So before we get to our work,why don't you tell us a little
bit about what you do, and thenwe'll move to the reason for the
podcast?
Dr. Spenser Simrill Jr. (01:36):
Hey everybody, I'm a writer,
producer and educator and 11years ago I was teaching a
course on family history at theUniversity of Georgia and I was
about to get married and I wascurious about, you know, my, our
lineage and I'm watching HenryLouis Gates on TV and I feel
(01:58):
like he's talking to me.
I mean, I just feel like thatand just this process of taking
people on ancestral journeys andusing 21st century research
tools.
You know, my students and I, wewere going to do this because I
was curious myself and I foundan alternate spelling of our
(02:23):
family's last name, found analternate spelling of our
family's last name.
My great-grandfather playedfootball for the South Carolina
Gamecocks during the Jim Crowera and in 1916, in the
newspaper the name isS-I-M-R-I-L with one L, and then
in the yearbook and when hemarried, there's a second L.
(02:45):
So I ran that original spellingthrough Google Books, which is
digitized.
It's like Googling yourself.
I don't know if y'all at homehave ever done that, but you're
doing that through time andspace, like through all.
Pretty much all printed materialhas been scanned and I find, in
1871, a 30-year-old blackmother of four named Harriet
(03:09):
Simrell testified against the KuKlux Klan in a federal
reconstruction trial.
And this is just like whoa,because with our last name being
(03:32):
so distinct, I realized thatthere had to be a connection of
enslavement, that my ancestorshad clearly enslaved Harriet.
And then I find throughFacebook a friend's suggestion
for a black guy my same age,from Rock Hill, South Carolina,
where my dad's from, with one L,with the original spelling.
And I had to back up from thecomputer and just take a long
walk, a long prayerful walk.
(03:55):
You know, lord, what do I dowith this information?
So fast forward, 11 years.
Our families have met.
We get together every year fora reunion.
Hopefully I can share some do'sand don'ts about how
potentially that can go down.
(04:16):
We've produced a podcastthrough Audible, once removed,
an American family reunion.
We have a TED Talk, tedxAsheville, delivered last year,
and now we are the feature of aCNN documentary, a Family in
Black and White, hosted byAnderson Cooper, reporting by
(04:40):
Sarah Seidner the great SarahSeidner and we were supposed to
air last Sunday, but theescalation of the Middle East,
we're still waiting on that dateto be reconfirmed.
Bishop Wright (04:56):
You know, I saw the trailer, if you will, of
this and it just affirms for mewhat I've been saying for years
is that we are one big,complicated American family
right.
And you know, you see a pushthese days to sort of paper over
(05:19):
the complication that's alivein your story, that we are both.
We are one thing and we aredifferent things and we are knit
together and we have hurt eachother and we've tried to make
amends.
(05:40):
We're all of those things atthe same time and so you know in
a really visceral way, you knowyou're just a wonderful example
of this.
So how did you push throughthis?
If I can ask, because you know,when I talk to people and we
talk about racial reconciliationand healing, your dad, your
family, has talked about thatfor years here in Atlanta,
(06:06):
talked about that for years herein Atlanta.
How do you encourage people?
What do you say to people whosay you know, I don't want to
know the stories.
That was then.
This is now.
If I go back, what will I find?
How do I handle perhaps someguilt or shame?
What do you say to those folks?
Dr. Spenser Simrill Jr. (06:18):
Well, there's a choice.
What happens if you don't lookat it?
I mean, if you look at theresearch from trauma, very often
we find find these buriedtruths manifested in alcohol
addiction and and and and anddrug abuse.
And you're not, I don't thinkyou're living your full human
(06:44):
potential If you don't know thewhole story.
There's research that showsthat a knowledge of family
history is the best indicator ofemotional resilience and
academic success, and so, yes,it can be nerve wracking for a
while.
I think my family knew aboutthis subconsciously the whole
(07:08):
time and I think none of thewhite or the black symbols had
known about Harriet and hertestimony consciously, but I
think it was buried deep withinour psyches and our bodies and
you know it's also, you knowthere's an element of choice you
(07:29):
can't force anybody to do stuffbut there's also a body of
evidence showing thetransformative power of
knowledge, especially informedby faith, that I hope, hopefully
, could steal or encouragepeople to go on the journey.
Bishop Wright (07:48):
You know, one of the things I like to say is that
as we live with faith, that is,as we live with God, as God's
words and God's ways begin tosort of touch our hearts, one of
the indicators of that is thatwe increase our appetite to tell
and to hear truth right.
(08:10):
One of the great markers of amature spirituality is that we
can let reality be reality right, and so your story says that
right.
Is that?
You know?
Because if I, if I've got myfacts right, you know, your dad
and a member of let's call themthe Black Semerals met at
(08:33):
Kentucky Fried Chicken as aninitial meeting and began to
talk about Harriet, that painfuland courageous thing that she
did.
Painful thing she went through,but courageous thing she did in
response.
Dr. Spenser Simrill Jr. (08:51):
That was a hell of a first meeting.
I mean, you can't make it upreally.
No, I was talking to Debrayesterday she's just fantastic
in the documentary and shecalled it.
The Kentucky fried meeting iswhat she called it and one of
the cool things that we did iswe started sketching our family
(09:13):
trees out, you know, just tryingto get to know each other, um,
and to see, um, what's.
I think what's cool about theseprojects is is, as you learn
about the deep history, youbecome invested in the, in the,
in the, in the present and thedescendants of it.
And it goes the other way, likeonce you, once you develop a
(09:38):
bond with somebody, then itmakes you more curious about you
, know their ancestors, like how, how we got here?
Bishop Wright (09:49):
Yeah, I mean you know I've I've talked a little
bit about this on the podcastbefore um, you know I'm adopted
uh and uh because of, uh, youknow some genetic stuff and my
wife's you know sort of tirelessuh research, I found my
biological mother, found mymother, therefore found my Irish
sort of family, and thank Godthey're still alive and I can
(10:11):
talk to them and we talkregularly and have a laugh and
it's wonderful just to get thatstory and found out that that
side of my family had been inthe country since 1730.
So before America was AmericaRight, and then and then on the
other side of it, we just sortof found my father's side,
african-american, who comesthrough Kentucky as a coal miner
(10:34):
, through Tennessee as laborersand farmers down into Columbus,
Tennessee.
You know Mississippi, you knowso just just you.
You learn these amazing journeysand you know through these,
these tools that we now haveavailable, you learn the stories
and there really are incrediblestories and you know, I feel
(10:55):
like I stand just a bit tallerknowing more about those stories
.
I feel like maybe I'm a littlebit more mature about
understanding human nature andhow all of us fall short and I
think I feel a little bit morehopeful in that if we can face
(11:19):
some of these things and and youknow these hard parts it
actually builds bridges withother people.
You know I can bring a littlebit of understanding bridges
with other people.
You know I can bring a littlebit of understanding to your
messiness if I can stand in myown messiness.
Dr. Spenser Simrill Jr. (11:30):
You know what I mean?
Yeah Well, just the emotionsyou described the awe, the
curiosity, the humility, thehope, the empathy.
I mean that's all what happens,you know, by going on this deep
, on this deep, deep dive.
Bishop Wright (12:14):
Well, you know, what your journey Spenser,
really does affirm is that wedon't have to be caught up in
denial.
Denial is not the only way wecan tend to our messy histories,
right.
That we don't have to be caughtup in denial.
Denial is not the only way wecan tend to our messy histories,
right?
It's pretty spirituallycourageous just to say I'm not
gonna use denial as an optionhere and to use clinical
(12:38):
language.
When we don't do that, weactually embark on a journey
where we might actuallyintegrate all the parts of who
we are right and that's wholly,literally, wholly and wholesome
is to integrate.
You know, I'm all these thingsall at one time.
And so what are you teachingyoung people?
How's this?
Dr. Spenser Simrill Jr. (12:57):
touch your time with young people and
informing them, and so what'sneat about it is is the students
are also learning researchskills.
You know.
They're learning like archives,how they're cataloged.
They're learning the rolebetween primary sources and
(13:18):
secondary sources.
They're learning interviewskills.
They're learning 21st centurycomputer stuff, as far as you
know, producing a podcast or avideo and it's yeah.
So I feel like they're gettinga lot.
I want to circle back real quickto what your talk about denial
(13:42):
and our story was denied for atleast 50 years.
Harriet's testimony and theKlan trials in York County,
south Carolina, are the sourcematerial for the Birth of a
Nation, the infamous DW Griffithfilm, and there's a recent
(14:06):
study from Harvard that afterthat film came out, in counties
where the film was shown,lynchings rose 500%.
So I'm in talk now to develop amuseum exhibit with the
Smithsonian National Museum ofAfrican American History and
(14:27):
Culture and I really think thisis this presents a moral
crossroads, like with our story,if you engage the truth and you
go through the thorns, this isthe briar patch of the South.
Right here it can be healing,it can be transformative.
(14:47):
If you deny it, if you lookaway, it can lead to propaganda,
it can lead to violence.
So you can see Harriet'stestimony and you know it's
something that you can't turnaway from.
(15:07):
It's there, it's visceral, hercourage.
There's also a movement back toLiberia.
That the Black Semerals shegave up the chance to begin a
(15:29):
new life in Arlington and that'sbeen amazing is reconciling
with them.
When we unveiled the firsthistorical marker in South
Carolina to mention the Ku KluxKlan they came for the unveiling
and we had never met thembefore and so all of a sudden
they show up and it's just sofun and just amazing.
Beautiful, resilient people andyou know, so like now I have
(15:52):
cousins, who I have cousins inthree continents.
Now, you know, through this,through this journey, I'm
profoundly grateful and justexcited to to learn other
people's stories.
And just excited to learn otherpeople's stories, I'm
(16:13):
developing a children's bookabout Reverend Elias Hill, who
was the leader of the Liberianmigration.
So trying to tell the story andshare it with people of all
ages and interests, it's reallyexciting.
Bishop Wright (16:25):
It's really exciting.
You know, this storytelling bitis one of the most subversive
things we can do, right.
I mean, you know, one of thethings that Empire does right is
Empire it decides on.
You know what can be said andwhat can't be said, what can
enter into speech, what can't beentered into speech.
(16:47):
And then you know, the biblicalrecord is a record of men and
women who decided to speak, youknow, kinship and speak family,
and speak revolution in somecases, and speak faith and speak
hope, and really, you know, inways that the empire was really
(17:07):
uncomfortable with, and that'swhy we kill the prophets and,
ultimately, that's why we killJesus, because they embody and
speak possibilities that areinconvenient for the empire.
So you know, you, determining ordeciding just to continue to
tell this story of kinship, of,of um, of uh, of moving forward,
(17:29):
of denial, is not an option,really is subversive, um, you
know, because if we keep thesestories alive, uh, I think we
keep reality in the room, right,and and we're not sort of
overwhelmed, uh, by all these,uh, you know, these manicured
stories that were being sort offorce fed, that the world is
messy, that we are, that we'relinked, ultimately, um, uh, that
(17:51):
, uh, that truth is inconvenientand yet that truth has its
benefit.
I mean, this is what you'resaying by doing the work that
you're doing and you're tryingto get this into the hands of,
you know, lots of differentkinds of age groups.
So this is just truly amazing.
I'm so glad that this came toCNN's attention and that they're
going to give it some air.
(18:11):
How did CNN get involved?
Dr. Spenser Simrill Jr. (18:14):
I had a friend from college who works
there, and we had a hurricane,of course, in October and I had
a little bit of— Asheville washit very hard.
Yeah, mainly where we are.
We're up on on a plateau, so itwas more like a tornado, uh.
But we didn't have food or wedidn't.
(18:36):
We had food, we didn't havepower or water for a couple
weeks and I just pitched myfriend this idea and it's just
sort of slowly, slowly, slowlymade its way up, and what what I
admire and appreciate workingwith them is their rigorous fact
checking.
So after we were done, it tookabout three weeks.
(18:57):
Every single claim they neededto see a paper trail of evidence
and luckily I had it.
People don't know this, butthere was a chance in American
history for black people'sfamily structures as it was
originally intended to berecorded in the 1850 census and
(19:21):
it made a debate to the Senatefloor and really I think it made
the white folks on the bigplantations.
It was just too muchinformation and too much too
much exposure for them, too muchhumanity, and so they replaced
(19:42):
the quote names of slaves withnumbers of slaves and
effectively erased a hundredyears of black family history.
So now to go back before 1870,you really have to go into the
white folks' records.
So we had this Moses-likefigure and if you want to find
his story, his family story.
Before then you have to go lookinto the house of the Pharaoh.
(20:03):
But what that potentially doesis, in the South, 46% of
families in South Carolina in1860 enslaved human beings.
But what it can do is it cancreate a shared project where
you can't separate one familystory from the other.
And I went to Northern Irelandwith my dad.
(20:25):
We went on a peace march inDerry, the side of Bloody Sunday
, with a Catholic high schooland a Protestant high school.
And what was remarkable aboutthis is, in doing so, these
young kids have a sharedexperience of the past.
There's no alternative facts.
They know that this happenedand they learn it together and
(20:46):
then, in doing so, they havebonds and friendships forming in
the present that ultimately isgoing to change the whole tenor
of the nation.
So we sort of did thatinadvertently, michael Simerle
and I he's my, he's my blackcousin, you know the same age.
You know, by us going tolibraries, going to historical
(21:09):
reenactments, us go intolibraries, go into historical
reenactments, you know we turnsomething that we that could
potentially divide us into aunifying and a healing moment.
And you know our friendshipscontinue to strengthen through
the days.
And you know it just it's.
It's really really I thinkabout them and and and pray for
them and with them, and it'sjust awesome, yeah, and pray for
(21:31):
them and with them and it'sjust awesome.
Bishop Wright (21:37):
Yeah, you know there, you know we talked about,
you know, I talked about oneindicator of sort of spiritual
maturity being, you know, thatwe can increase our ability to
tell and hear reality and truth.
You know, the second indicatorI would say would be sort of
giving up all claims toseparateness and superiority,
Right, and so you know, that'sthe thing.
(21:58):
As we move along and your workis sort of revealing that even
that pilgrimage you went on isis there.
You know, ultimately therereally is no other.
Ultimately we are together,Ultimately we're knit together.
Yeah, we've had tragic andterrible fights.
Division continues to bedevilus, but you know, if we can find
(22:18):
the courage and the empathy, wereally realize that.
I mean, it's honestly sad tosay we have so much more in
common.
Yeah, that's true, but alsothat we're actually just the
same.
We're actually just a humanfamily.
You know, people talk about ahuman race and I'm like you know
what the hell are we?
Where are we racing to?
We're a human family.
We always have been, since ourancestor walked out of East
(22:41):
Africa, We've always been thesame.
We judge each other by, youknow, these adaptations that
come to all of us just becauseof climate and superficial
factors, but we are the actualsame.
The mitochondrial DNA says weare a family and so you know, I
think these kinds of what wemight call peace warriors, right
(23:02):
, People who are going to wagewar on the side of peace, which
means brotherhood and sisterhoodand shared humanity.
This is what I hope.
Faith is the message, thatfaith in all of our houses of
worship, our Jewish temples, ourMuslim mosques, our Christian
churches.
This is what I hope is reallythe sermon every Sunday.
(23:23):
To some degree or the other,We've found ourselves and locked
ourselves into these tragiccul-de-sacs.
We see it now in Gaza, we see itin Ukraine, we see it all over
the world, we see it in Congo,we see it in all these places.
But ultimately, if we couldever get to the place where we
(23:43):
simply realized that I'm yoursand you're mine, we belong to
each other Our DNA says it righthow much different the world
would be.
It sounds even so silly andsyrupy to say it out loud
because immediately people saywell, that sounds great on
Sunday morning, for instance inthe sermon, but in the real
(24:04):
world, right?
So we have decided that realityreally is not this, but reality
is war, war and war, and so I'malways grateful for these kinds
of stories and people like you,frankly, who have just decided
to zoom out and see the truth.
Dr. Spenser Simrill Jr. (24:20):
Well, thank you, and I mentioned to
your producer, easton, that youressay on the American South as
our holy land was deeplyinspiring and that really
encouraged me to create thishistorical marker and to view
the South where we are, as thisplace for healing, and it
(24:46):
definitely also helped mereconcile whatever conflicted
feelings I have about the pastand about the South.
So it's, it's really great tobe here.
It's another reminder thatwe're all branches of the same
same human tree.
We're all made in the image ofGod and I love this podcast.
Bishop Wright (25:08):
I'm really, really honored, honored to be on
it no-transcript that you knowmy ancestors come right up out
(25:42):
of enslavement.
You know in Columbus,mississippi, and out of the soil
in Tennessee and deep into theearth.
You know in coal mining inKentucky.
So I mean, you know, what doesour subconscious know?
That is only just now, you know, trying to find its way to the
surface, right Into our lips.
Last question for you you knowyou're a dad, yeah, yeah.
(26:06):
So say a little bit about yourfamily.
And then what do you tell thekids about this piece of work
that dad is doing?
I mean, do they get to go tosome of these family reunions
and gatherings?
Dr. Spenser Simrill Jr. (26:23):
And what are their questions when
they go to these gatherings.
Well, that was one of the mainreasons why we did it is we saw
that we're doing this in thepresence of children and we want
to present the best version ofourselves, like we don't want to
be judgmental or prejudicedaround our kids, and so I think
my kids have experiencedintegration on a subconscious
(26:45):
level, before they ever knewabout slavery or civil rights,
where they'd go to these familygatherings.
And my son, when he becameinterested in computers, he
would Google the funny namesSimril and Vaughn, white folks
and black folks, and you know tohim it was all one.
But now I think that they'relearning about these things in
(27:08):
school.
They're going twins, boy we'regoing into the fourth grade.
You know we were reading thesebooks, like you know who was
Harriet Tubman and who wasGandhi, and and you know we're
using this as this, as ateachable moment, you know, for
hopefully for them to be more,to be kinder and more, more
(27:30):
empathetic and curious and andgrateful that that we don't have
these, these institutionalseparations, you know, keeping
us apart.
Bishop Wright (27:45):
Yeah, Wonderful.
Yeah, we're doing what we do inthe presence of children.
That's the takeaway.
You know what we say.
What we achieve you know I'mreally arrested by a quote that
I heard the other day is that,you know, people are actually
not the sum total of their goals, they're the sum total of their
(28:06):
choices, Right, and so that'sjust at a granular level.
We are the people who make thechoices that we make.
You know, the good news isthere's grace in all of that,
but but you've made a choice.
You've made a choice to be astoryteller.
You've made a choice to notlook away but to look, look in
and and we're grateful, Spenser.
(28:28):
Brothers and sisters, we arewith Spenser Simrill Jr..
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