December 13, 2024 • 23 mins
What if embracing authenticity could lead you to spiritual maturity and a deeper connection with God? John the Baptist's authenticity invites us to step out of societal norms and into a life of repentance and grace.
In this episode, Melissa and Bishop Wright have a conversation about John the Baptist through the lens of Luke 3:7-18. Together, they wonder about John's upbringing by Zechariah and Elizabeth, which cultivated his understanding of God's reality. They also talk about John's message and it's relevance in our world today. Listen in for the full conversation.
Read For Faith, the companion devotional.
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Episode Transcript
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Bishop Rob Wright (00:00):
Grace can also be telling us the truth,
and the truth is this Everythingthat we conjure up and
participate day to day may notbe healthy for us Some of our
defaults, some of the ways thatwe've decided to live because
life has squeezed us intodirections or family of origin,
issues that may be at odds withGod's call for our life.
(00:23):
God may be calling us to heal,and so a word of grace is also a
word of truth.
Melissa (00:40):
Welcome to Four People with Bishop Rob Wright.
I'm Melissa Rau and this is aconversation inspired by For
Faith, a weekly devotion sentout every Friday.
You can find a link tosubscribe in the episode's
description.
Good morning, bishop.
Bishop Rob Wright (00:54):
Good morning.
For
Melissa (00:56):
Entitled Accelerate.
This week's devotion is basedoff Luke, chapter 3, verses
seven to 18.
And it's all about John theBaptist and his continued
message, spreading repentanceand authenticity and grace.
What more would you say aboutour brother John?
Bishop Rob Wright (01:15):
All of that, John.
Melissa (01:16):
I love John.
Bishop Rob Wright (01:18):
I love John.
John doesn't get nearly enoughcredit.
He's the wild man.
He's Jesus's big sort of wild,woolly, maybe hyper-religious
cousin to some people's minds.
But I think it's easy to missthe beauty of John.
You know and so you know whatJohn is and what John does
(01:38):
according to scripture is hejust refuses to participate in
the cover-up.
He refuses Because I think whathe's paying attention to is
that especially people like mewho are pastors or bishops or
deacons or priests, who arecharged with creating spaces for
(02:02):
people, sometimes we soft sellthe gospel, sometimes we make it
so palatable to people thatit's no use at all, sometimes we
diminish the change invitationand we don't want to ruffle
(02:23):
feathers or whatever.
But it seems to me that John isbetting on something and that is
is that if we can give thegospel with its clarity that
Jesus for us now is inviting ushome to himself, or for John
then that God is inviting us toa turnaround, drop the pretenses
(02:44):
, stop the silliness, come onhome to God, come on home to
yourself.
If we would do that, I think wewould create a space for people
to really feel the fullblessing and the full heft of
the gospel.
Melissa (02:58):
Well, that's a big dose right there.
Bishop Rob Wright (03:01):
That's a whole lot, I know.
Melissa (03:03):
I have to say I read your devotion this week and in
preparation for our conversationI did a little digging because
I got excited by it.
I don't know, there's justsomething about your devotion
that's kind of raw.
And John the Baptist is areally interesting figure.
I got to go to the Holy Lands acouple of years ago and
realized there were three majorfactions, I guess of the Hebrew
people realized you know, thereare three major.
(03:24):
There were three major factions, I guess, of the Hebrew people,
the Jewish people, theSadducees, the Pharisees and the
Essenes.
And the Essenes like lived outin the desert, like they were
separatists on purpose, and wecan probably thank them for the
Dead Sea Scrolls because theydid a lot of that work right.
And so John the Baptist,whether he was brought up or not
(03:48):
in a scene kind of you know thecommunity, he is definitely
from the desert, from thewilderness.
So the idea of the marginalized, you know, coming in or pushing
in with messages of hope andsalvation to the regular culture
, I don't know.
There's something that capturedme about that whole idea.
Bishop Rob Wright (04:10):
Yeah, I mean it seems that what I like, john,
is that John comes from thewilderness to the Jordan to
bring a word of repentance.
I like to say, every once in awhile, the big city needs a word
from the wilderness, right?
You know, howard Thurman usedto talk about being in a place
where the traffic of the mindcould be.
(04:31):
Still, you know, one wonders ifJohn wasn't out in the
wilderness.
As you know, I think what, whatsome people would argue, who go
way deep into this stuff, is,is that there's lots of beliefs
about how to respond to God.
One is to sort of stay in thethick of things and try to work
the change out from the middle.
Others sort of retreat to theedges.
(04:54):
Amish folks don't necessarilymix, you know, with our sort of
regular modern day culture.
So I mean, there, there, thereare always, there's always this
thread which is is that we needto be out.
In a way, we need to be incommunities where we can, where
we can work really hard to makethem resemble of what life with
(05:18):
God looks like.
And so, yeah, it's, it'spossible that John, you know is
is out on the edges.
We know that at least he had anencounter with God out in the
wilderness.
But we also know that John wasraised in the temple with mom
and dad, with Zechariah andElizabeth.
(05:38):
We know that John is themuch-awaited child from a couple
that struggled with infidelityfor many years.
We know also that John is theproduct of a marriage where a
husband and a wife agreed thatGod was the center of everything
.
And so, you know, while thegospel doesn't tell us all the
(06:00):
details, I always wonder aboutfamily dinners.
You know, or you know you'rebouncing your baby boy or
daughter on your knee and you'retelling them stories.
You know.
I think that Elizabeth andZechariah, his mom and dad,
probably deserve a lot of creditin John understanding that God
(06:27):
is real, as I like to say, godis real, able, good and generous
, and that God is someone thatwe should invite other people to
know.
So I think that's where Johngets John's zeal, his energy,
his clarity.
I also wonder, dr King used tosay, when I use my spiritual
(06:49):
imagination, in other wordsgrounded in these stories and
yet in some ways beyond thesestories, but making connections
and projections, I also wonderwhat went on with John.
I wonder.
I just this is just wondering,and I've said this sort of stuff
before.
I wonder, you know, if the lackof seriousness in his local
(07:14):
congregation drove him out tothe wilderness to be in the mud
with sin-stained people?
As a sin-stained person you knowalso, if you do the history you
know, the Jewish people at thattime were colonized people and
so in their religion, theirreligion, had to make lots of
(07:37):
concessions to the Romanoppressor, and even some of the
dignitaries and some of thepeople in authority were Jews,
but Rome had forced them intopractices and ways of life, uh,
as a control mechanism over thepeople.
And in fact, uh, the Romanscontrolled the way in which the
(08:01):
Jewish folks, um, celebratedtheir holidays, and certainly
the Romans were there to crushany movements or motions by
folks who wanted to live outfrom under their oppression.
So one wonders if John doesn'tset up John's movement not only
(08:25):
in response to what he believedGod was doing and could do in
people's lives and may have donein his life, but also perhaps
an invitation to come out fromthis mindset of being colonized.
Melissa (08:42):
Well, I mean, it doesn't escape me that the last
sentence of your devotion hasthe word grace in it, and you
talk about grace beingproliferated and accelerated.
Bishop Rob Wright (08:53):
Yeah.
Melissa (08:53):
So where does grace come into play with all of this?
Bishop Rob Wright (08:57):
Well, I think we've got to start thinking
about grace, perhaps in a morenuanced fashion.
I think sometimes, when peopletalk about grace, what they mean
is that they put grace somehowin opposition to accountability,
or they put grace somehowoppositionally to something that
(09:22):
has demands.
Yes, grace is unmerited,undeserved favor of God.
Yes, we know that, we agree100%.
But grace can also be Godsending a word to us that
changes our direction.
Grace can also be telling usthe truth, and the truth is this
(09:47):
everything that we conjure upand participate day to day may
not be healthy for us, Some ofour defaults, some of the ways
that we've decided to livebecause life has squeezed us
into directions or family oforigin, issues that may not be
the way, that may be at oddswith God's call for our life.
(10:09):
God may be calling us to heal,and so a word of grace is also a
word of truth.
So, you know, I think John isactually quite graceful.
Because what's the alternative?
God says nothing.
You know what kind of parentsees that the bridge is out
ahead and doesn't try to stopthe son, beloved son or daughter
(10:32):
from going in a direction wherethe bridge is out.
I would call that grace.
And so I think we've got toexpand our sense of what grace
means.
It is grace that we have 66books of the Bible that help us
to know something of thecharacter and mind of God.
(10:52):
It is grace to us to watch someof these people in this book
and in these stories, like John,struggle with what it means to
suffer, to struggle with brokenrelationships.
I mean it's grace that Paulsays you know, this thorn in my
(11:15):
life, right, doesn't go away.
I've prayed and prayed and thisthorn won't go away.
But this thorn leads me tounderstand that God's grace is
sufficient.
So I think that you know, Ithink there's an exciting
conversation to have with peopleabout the forms of grace in our
lives.
Melissa (12:05):
Yeah, you know, listening to you talk about that
, I can't help but bring up theimage of people who kind of
ruffle their feathers whensomeone who is telling the truth
and is trying to tell the truthin a grace-based way, and yet
the hearers just hear negativityrather than the truth behind it
.
Bishop Rob Wright (12:20):
Sure Sure.
Melissa (12:21):
Where does dissatisfaction come into all of
this.
Bishop Rob Wright (12:25):
Well, look what we're also talking about.
You know, maya Angelou saidthat.
You know you can't wrestlepeople's ignorance from them,
right?
So I think there's that on theone hand.
And yet, you know, jesus toldthis wonderful story about a
sower who went out to sow.
Someone went out to throw seeds, and so thank God for the grace
(12:47):
of John the Baptist, who goesout and he invites people to
take life seriously, to take Godseriously.
Look, here's what I think aboutJohn.
I think that John representswhat we all need.
Maybe one of my favorite thingsabout John is somebody needs to
be in our life that believesthat we all have a next chapter.
(13:09):
You know, for all of our sortof feather ruffling at John and
all of our sort of squinting atJohn, to see the grace of him,
john is a graceful characterbecause John looks you, no
matter where you've been, nomatter what you've done, looks
you square in your face and saysyou, my friend, have another
(13:29):
chapter.
Right, you have another chapter.
Come and be baptized, Come andknow the living God.
Leave the pretenses down, Leaveall the ruts that you find
yourself in, leave the sin downby the riverside, come and be
baptized and live anew.
I mean there are some people whodon't.
(13:52):
They're either afraid to say itor they don't have the capacity
to say it.
They don't say anything aboutyour next chapter.
You know they want to justcover you in your past.
You know, condemn you to yoursins, right?
And so I don't know what's moregraceful than saying come on
down to the river and bebaptized and you get another
(14:13):
chapter.
What's the alternative?
Right?
Nothing, right.
We just go on and on and on,just as we are, and we know
we're diminished.
Melissa (14:25):
Okay, yes.
And Jesus then also says don'tthrow pearls before swine.
Bishop Rob Wright (14:31):
Right.
Melissa (14:32):
That's right.
Bishop Rob Wright (14:32):
That's right, beautiful, what a beautiful
counter, yeah, and so let's godown that line.
And so, if you watch the Ark ofJohn's ministry, john seems to
know that too.
When he says to people,religious onlookers who warned
you of the wrath that is to come, you brood of vipers right.
(14:54):
I mean, john also knows thatthere are vipers and or, in
Jesus's language, there areswine, right.
And so John does have onerequirement of us, and that is
sincerity.
This is not another religiousperformance right.
One of the things that I wasreally very mindful of as a
(15:16):
young minister is that howreligious services of any
denomination can becomereligious entertainment,
spiritual entertainment, insipidand empty.
We go through the motions butwe don't bring ourselves there,
(15:38):
and John is having none of thatright.
He's having none of it.
So, yeah, his job is to sow,his job is to invite, but he
does have a requirement, and youknow, I can just imagine, you
know that people came and wereturned off by John and maybe
pivoted and went away, and I canalso imagine that some people
(16:00):
came there and it was lifechanging.
Melissa (16:05):
So let's talk a little bit more about that authenticity
then.
What do you think is behindthat authenticity?
Like, does someone have to beknocked down on their butts to
get back up, or is it just amatter of wanting, or you know?
Is there something that we cando to stoke fire, of being real?
Bishop Rob Wright (16:27):
Well, I think what we can do is that we can.
I mean, you know, I don't knowhow we get these messages to
people sometimes.
I think it's maybe one of theflaws of the way we do church in
a lot of quarters Somehow themessage gets shared that we have
to dress a certain way, and youknow we have to speak a certain
(16:50):
way before we come to God.
And you know what we have gotto do is purge those ideas right
.
So God is the God of yourugliest moment.
God is the God of your mostbeautiful moment.
God sees you in all your wonder, god sees you in all your warts
, and so what there's aninvitation to is to be yourself.
(17:16):
There's an old hymn that saysjust as I am, without one plea,
right.
So it is, I think, aninvitation to spiritual maturity
that says I can come to God inmy prayers just as I am.
Prayer is one of the mosthonest places that there is Talk
about a grace.
Honest places that there isTalk about a grace.
(17:38):
I mean you can say stuff to Godthat you might even not be able
to say to your therapist.
You can go to God and say allthe stuff, right.
So that's authenticity, butalso you understand that God
doesn't want you to be somebodyelse you to be somebody else,
right?
God's not saying that you arefundamentally flawed.
Be somebody else.
(18:04):
God is saying come and know meand know my love, and when you
go down deep in that, you findthe best expression of your own
self.
You know.
What's interesting about thisis is that God wants, god is
rooting for us to finallyembrace the fact that we're
already fearfully andwonderfully made and that if we
just took off all this falsehoodand all these, you know, fake
(18:25):
garments that the world wants usto put on, that we would find
ourselves.
What's the what's?
One of the most flatteringthings you can say to somebody
is that they are themselvesself-possessed.
Right, and it's to own the factthat I am a saint and I am a
sinner.
I am both.
Melissa (18:44):
That's right.
Bishop Rob Wright (18:44):
I'm absolutely both.
I'm no little perfect church.
That's why, when I go tocongregations, I always say
where are the sinners at?
Because I don't want to be inthe perfect churches.
Perfect people, churches giveme the willies, right, I want to
be, you know, and I thinkthat's what it is.
I want to be in those places,not where, if I say I'm a sinner
(19:05):
, I have no self-worth no, notat all.
God loves sinners and sinningjust means that I fall short.
And think about theauthenticity that comes out of
that.
If I know that I fall short,right, and I know that you fall
short, now I can meet you at aplace where you know we can
really see each other.
Right, we can see each otherand we don't have to perform.
(19:29):
What's great about having alongtime friend?
Right, they knew you when,right, they knew you through
your bad hair days and your1980s, weird, 1990s, weird
clothes days.
They know you and you know them.
And if you've got a real friendright that they appreciate you,
(19:49):
that they appreciate yourtravel, your journey, all the
ups and all the downs, and youcan say to that person girl or
friend, yeah, that was a.
I look back, that was a badcall and they say, yeah, that
was a bad call, right?
I mean, this is the invitation Ithink that comes from John, you
(20:11):
know at the Jordan River tocome and be yourself, let your
shoulders fall down and knowthat God loves you, but also
know that God is inviting you tosomething that you can't even
imagine the truth, how truth canjust shape your life in ways.
Don't you love 80 and90-year-old people?
(20:33):
I do.
Don't you love 80 and 90 yearold people?
I do, I do, I do, and I evenhave the blessing of knowing
someone who's over a hundred.
You know, there's no pretensewith them, and they will tell
you.
They will tell you some stuffthat you may not even be ready
to hear.
Melissa (20:51):
You know what I'm going to be the coolest 80 year old
fish.
You know what I'm going to bethe coolest 80-year-old fish.
Bishop Rob Wright (20:57):
Well, think about it, and what a gift that
would be to somebody.
Melissa (21:02):
Yeah.
Bishop Rob Wright (21:02):
What a gift it would be to somebody to say I
see you and encourage you andmaybe tell you to lay some other
stuff down, but nevertheless,at the same time, invites you
forward into life.
Oh, my God, I mean you know.
So if we love 80 and 90 yearolds, think about God, who's
older than time, right, yeah,who gets these people like John
(21:25):
to participate with God ininviting us, you know, into a
life?
Melissa (21:30):
a real life.
Maybe the goal isn't perfection, but the goal is being
authentically who we are meantto be.
Bishop Rob Wright (21:38):
I think the word perfect can be a very
dangerous word.
I think it's been weaponized insome families.
It's certainly been weaponizedin some religious traditions.
I think the word is whole,whole, to be integrated, to
integrate the fact that all thequadrants of my journey are
(21:59):
integrated, and so, as far as Iknow, there's nothing better to
integrate all of who I am.
Again, the wonder and the warts, right.
Then a relationship with God.
The Psalms again, they accountfor all of the emotions of life.
(22:20):
Hey, god, where are you?
Abandonment, rejection whydon't my prayers seem to be
answered?
Hallelujah, god, you're sowonderful.
I mean, it spans.
It's all of the emotions.
And you sketch all of thattogether and what we realize is
that God is enough, god for allof the things that we go through
(22:42):
.
And God is like I'm standingright here.
I'm right here with you.
You know there's in Psalm 139,there's nowhere you can go,
nowhere that you can go, that Ican't be with, right beside you.
And I've seen you since yourbirth, right, and I'll be with
you when you have your lastbreath.
(23:03):
And I'm right here.
I think John just doesn't wantto muddy that message.
John just wants to say God isnot to be played with.
God is a serious God, but God'sseriousness is about you
finding real life.
Melissa (23:21):
And thank God for that.
Thank God for that.
Thank you so much for yourwisdom.
Thank you, listeners, fortuning in to Four People.
You can follow us on Instagramand Facebook at Bishop Rob
Wright.
Please subscribe, leave areview and we'll be back with
you next week.
Grace can also be telling us the truth,
and the truth is this Everythingthat we conjure up and
participate day to day may notbe healthy for us Some of our
defaults, some of the ways thatwe've decided to live because
life has squeezed us intodirections or family of origin,
issues that may be at odds withGod's call for our life.
(00:23):
God may be calling us to heal,and so a word of grace is also a
word of truth.
Melissa (00:40):
Welcome to Four People with Bishop Rob Wright.
I'm Melissa Rau and this is aconversation inspired by For
Faith, a weekly devotion sentout every Friday.
You can find a link tosubscribe in the episode's
description.
Good morning, bishop.
Bishop Rob Wright (00:54):
Good morning.
For
Melissa (00:56):
Entitled Accelerate.
This week's devotion is basedoff Luke, chapter 3, verses
seven to 18.
And it's all about John theBaptist and his continued
message, spreading repentanceand authenticity and grace.
What more would you say aboutour brother John?
Bishop Rob Wright (01:15):
All of that, John.
Melissa (01:16):
I love John.
Bishop Rob Wright (01:18):
I love John.
John doesn't get nearly enoughcredit.
He's the wild man.
He's Jesus's big sort of wild,woolly, maybe hyper-religious
cousin to some people's minds.
But I think it's easy to missthe beauty of John.
You know and so you know whatJohn is and what John does
(01:38):
according to scripture is hejust refuses to participate in
the cover-up.
He refuses Because I think whathe's paying attention to is
that especially people like mewho are pastors or bishops or
deacons or priests, who arecharged with creating spaces for
(02:02):
people, sometimes we soft sellthe gospel, sometimes we make it
so palatable to people thatit's no use at all, sometimes we
diminish the change invitationand we don't want to ruffle
(02:23):
feathers or whatever.
But it seems to me that John isbetting on something and that is
is that if we can give thegospel with its clarity that
Jesus for us now is inviting ushome to himself, or for John
then that God is inviting us toa turnaround, drop the pretenses
(02:44):
, stop the silliness, come onhome to God, come on home to
yourself.
If we would do that, I think wewould create a space for people
to really feel the fullblessing and the full heft of
the gospel.
Melissa (02:58):
Well, that's a big dose right there.
Bishop Rob Wright (03:01):
That's a whole lot, I know.
Melissa (03:03):
I have to say I read your devotion this week and in
preparation for our conversationI did a little digging because
I got excited by it.
I don't know, there's justsomething about your devotion
that's kind of raw.
And John the Baptist is areally interesting figure.
I got to go to the Holy Lands acouple of years ago and
realized there were three majorfactions, I guess of the Hebrew
people realized you know, thereare three major.
(03:24):
There were three major factions, I guess, of the Hebrew people,
the Jewish people, theSadducees, the Pharisees and the
Essenes.
And the Essenes like lived outin the desert, like they were
separatists on purpose, and wecan probably thank them for the
Dead Sea Scrolls because theydid a lot of that work right.
And so John the Baptist,whether he was brought up or not
(03:48):
in a scene kind of you know thecommunity, he is definitely
from the desert, from thewilderness.
So the idea of the marginalized, you know, coming in or pushing
in with messages of hope andsalvation to the regular culture
, I don't know.
There's something that capturedme about that whole idea.
Bishop Rob Wright (04:10):
Yeah, I mean it seems that what I like, john,
is that John comes from thewilderness to the Jordan to
bring a word of repentance.
I like to say, every once in awhile, the big city needs a word
from the wilderness, right?
You know, howard Thurman usedto talk about being in a place
where the traffic of the mindcould be.
(04:31):
Still, you know, one wonders ifJohn wasn't out in the
wilderness.
As you know, I think what, whatsome people would argue, who go
way deep into this stuff, is,is that there's lots of beliefs
about how to respond to God.
One is to sort of stay in thethick of things and try to work
the change out from the middle.
Others sort of retreat to theedges.
(04:54):
Amish folks don't necessarilymix, you know, with our sort of
regular modern day culture.
So I mean, there, there, thereare always, there's always this
thread which is is that we needto be out.
In a way, we need to be incommunities where we can, where
we can work really hard to makethem resemble of what life with
(05:18):
God looks like.
And so, yeah, it's, it'spossible that John, you know is
is out on the edges.
We know that at least he had anencounter with God out in the
wilderness.
But we also know that John wasraised in the temple with mom
and dad, with Zechariah andElizabeth.
(05:38):
We know that John is themuch-awaited child from a couple
that struggled with infidelityfor many years.
We know also that John is theproduct of a marriage where a
husband and a wife agreed thatGod was the center of everything
.
And so, you know, while thegospel doesn't tell us all the
(06:00):
details, I always wonder aboutfamily dinners.
You know, or you know you'rebouncing your baby boy or
daughter on your knee and you'retelling them stories.
You know.
I think that Elizabeth andZechariah, his mom and dad,
probably deserve a lot of creditin John understanding that God
(06:27):
is real, as I like to say, godis real, able, good and generous
, and that God is someone thatwe should invite other people to
know.
So I think that's where Johngets John's zeal, his energy,
his clarity.
I also wonder, dr King used tosay, when I use my spiritual
(06:49):
imagination, in other wordsgrounded in these stories and
yet in some ways beyond thesestories, but making connections
and projections, I also wonderwhat went on with John.
I wonder.
I just this is just wondering,and I've said this sort of stuff
before.
I wonder, you know, if the lackof seriousness in his local
(07:14):
congregation drove him out tothe wilderness to be in the mud
with sin-stained people?
As a sin-stained person you knowalso, if you do the history you
know, the Jewish people at thattime were colonized people and
so in their religion, theirreligion, had to make lots of
(07:37):
concessions to the Romanoppressor, and even some of the
dignitaries and some of thepeople in authority were Jews,
but Rome had forced them intopractices and ways of life, uh,
as a control mechanism over thepeople.
And in fact, uh, the Romanscontrolled the way in which the
(08:01):
Jewish folks, um, celebratedtheir holidays, and certainly
the Romans were there to crushany movements or motions by
folks who wanted to live outfrom under their oppression.
So one wonders if John doesn'tset up John's movement not only
(08:25):
in response to what he believedGod was doing and could do in
people's lives and may have donein his life, but also perhaps
an invitation to come out fromthis mindset of being colonized.
Melissa (08:42):
Well, I mean, it doesn't escape me that the last
sentence of your devotion hasthe word grace in it, and you
talk about grace beingproliferated and accelerated.
Bishop Rob Wright (08:53):
Yeah.
Melissa (08:53):
So where does grace come into play with all of this?
Bishop Rob Wright (08:57):
Well, I think we've got to start thinking
about grace, perhaps in a morenuanced fashion.
I think sometimes, when peopletalk about grace, what they mean
is that they put grace somehowin opposition to accountability,
or they put grace somehowoppositionally to something that
(09:22):
has demands.
Yes, grace is unmerited,undeserved favor of God.
Yes, we know that, we agree100%.
But grace can also be Godsending a word to us that
changes our direction.
Grace can also be telling usthe truth, and the truth is this
(09:47):
everything that we conjure upand participate day to day may
not be healthy for us, Some ofour defaults, some of the ways
that we've decided to livebecause life has squeezed us
into directions or family oforigin, issues that may not be
the way, that may be at oddswith God's call for our life.
(10:09):
God may be calling us to heal,and so a word of grace is also a
word of truth.
So, you know, I think John isactually quite graceful.
Because what's the alternative?
God says nothing.
You know what kind of parentsees that the bridge is out
ahead and doesn't try to stopthe son, beloved son or daughter
(10:32):
from going in a direction wherethe bridge is out.
I would call that grace.
And so I think we've got toexpand our sense of what grace
means.
It is grace that we have 66books of the Bible that help us
to know something of thecharacter and mind of God.
(10:52):
It is grace to us to watch someof these people in this book
and in these stories, like John,struggle with what it means to
suffer, to struggle with brokenrelationships.
I mean it's grace that Paulsays you know, this thorn in my
(11:15):
life, right, doesn't go away.
I've prayed and prayed and thisthorn won't go away.
But this thorn leads me tounderstand that God's grace is
sufficient.
So I think that you know, Ithink there's an exciting
conversation to have with peopleabout the forms of grace in our
lives.
Melissa (12:05):
Yeah, you know, listening to you talk about that
, I can't help but bring up theimage of people who kind of
ruffle their feathers whensomeone who is telling the truth
and is trying to tell the truthin a grace-based way, and yet
the hearers just hear negativityrather than the truth behind it
.
Bishop Rob Wright (12:20):
Sure Sure.
Melissa (12:21):
Where does dissatisfaction come into all of
this.
Bishop Rob Wright (12:25):
Well, look what we're also talking about.
You know, maya Angelou saidthat.
You know you can't wrestlepeople's ignorance from them,
right?
So I think there's that on theone hand.
And yet, you know, jesus toldthis wonderful story about a
sower who went out to sow.
Someone went out to throw seeds, and so thank God for the grace
(12:47):
of John the Baptist, who goesout and he invites people to
take life seriously, to take Godseriously.
Look, here's what I think aboutJohn.
I think that John representswhat we all need.
Maybe one of my favorite thingsabout John is somebody needs to
be in our life that believesthat we all have a next chapter.
(13:09):
You know, for all of our sortof feather ruffling at John and
all of our sort of squinting atJohn, to see the grace of him,
john is a graceful characterbecause John looks you, no
matter where you've been, nomatter what you've done, looks
you square in your face and saysyou, my friend, have another
(13:29):
chapter.
Right, you have another chapter.
Come and be baptized, Come andknow the living God.
Leave the pretenses down, Leaveall the ruts that you find
yourself in, leave the sin downby the riverside, come and be
baptized and live anew.
I mean there are some people whodon't.
(13:52):
They're either afraid to say itor they don't have the capacity
to say it.
They don't say anything aboutyour next chapter.
You know they want to justcover you in your past.
You know, condemn you to yoursins, right?
And so I don't know what's moregraceful than saying come on
down to the river and bebaptized and you get another
(14:13):
chapter.
What's the alternative?
Right?
Nothing, right.
We just go on and on and on,just as we are, and we know
we're diminished.
Melissa (14:25):
Okay, yes.
And Jesus then also says don'tthrow pearls before swine.
Bishop Rob Wright (14:31):
Right.
Melissa (14:32):
That's right.
Bishop Rob Wright (14:32):
That's right, beautiful, what a beautiful
counter, yeah, and so let's godown that line.
And so, if you watch the Ark ofJohn's ministry, john seems to
know that too.
When he says to people,religious onlookers who warned
you of the wrath that is to come, you brood of vipers right.
(14:54):
I mean, john also knows thatthere are vipers and or, in
Jesus's language, there areswine, right.
And so John does have onerequirement of us, and that is
sincerity.
This is not another religiousperformance right.
One of the things that I wasreally very mindful of as a
(15:16):
young minister is that howreligious services of any
denomination can becomereligious entertainment,
spiritual entertainment, insipidand empty.
We go through the motions butwe don't bring ourselves there,
(15:38):
and John is having none of thatright.
He's having none of it.
So, yeah, his job is to sow,his job is to invite, but he
does have a requirement, and youknow, I can just imagine, you
know that people came and wereturned off by John and maybe
pivoted and went away, and I canalso imagine that some people
(16:00):
came there and it was lifechanging.
Melissa (16:05):
So let's talk a little bit more about that authenticity
then.
What do you think is behindthat authenticity?
Like, does someone have to beknocked down on their butts to
get back up, or is it just amatter of wanting, or you know?
Is there something that we cando to stoke fire, of being real?
Bishop Rob Wright (16:27):
Well, I think what we can do is that we can.
I mean, you know, I don't knowhow we get these messages to
people sometimes.
I think it's maybe one of theflaws of the way we do church in
a lot of quarters Somehow themessage gets shared that we have
to dress a certain way, and youknow we have to speak a certain
(16:50):
way before we come to God.
And you know what we have gotto do is purge those ideas right
.
So God is the God of yourugliest moment.
God is the God of your mostbeautiful moment.
God sees you in all your wonder, god sees you in all your warts
, and so what there's aninvitation to is to be yourself.
(17:16):
There's an old hymn that saysjust as I am, without one plea,
right.
So it is, I think, aninvitation to spiritual maturity
that says I can come to God inmy prayers just as I am.
Prayer is one of the mosthonest places that there is Talk
about a grace.
Honest places that there isTalk about a grace.
(17:38):
I mean you can say stuff to Godthat you might even not be able
to say to your therapist.
You can go to God and say allthe stuff, right.
So that's authenticity, butalso you understand that God
doesn't want you to be somebodyelse you to be somebody else,
right?
God's not saying that you arefundamentally flawed.
Be somebody else.
(18:04):
God is saying come and know meand know my love, and when you
go down deep in that, you findthe best expression of your own
self.
You know.
What's interesting about thisis is that God wants, god is
rooting for us to finallyembrace the fact that we're
already fearfully andwonderfully made and that if we
just took off all this falsehoodand all these, you know, fake
(18:25):
garments that the world wants usto put on, that we would find
ourselves.
What's the what's?
One of the most flatteringthings you can say to somebody
is that they are themselvesself-possessed.
Right, and it's to own the factthat I am a saint and I am a
sinner.
I am both.
Melissa (18:44):
That's right.
Bishop Rob Wright (18:44):
I'm absolutely both.
I'm no little perfect church.
That's why, when I go tocongregations, I always say
where are the sinners at?
Because I don't want to be inthe perfect churches.
Perfect people, churches giveme the willies, right, I want to
be, you know, and I thinkthat's what it is.
I want to be in those places,not where, if I say I'm a sinner
(19:05):
, I have no self-worth no, notat all.
God loves sinners and sinningjust means that I fall short.
And think about theauthenticity that comes out of
that.
If I know that I fall short,right, and I know that you fall
short, now I can meet you at aplace where you know we can
really see each other.
Right, we can see each otherand we don't have to perform.
(19:29):
What's great about having alongtime friend?
Right, they knew you when,right, they knew you through
your bad hair days and your1980s, weird, 1990s, weird
clothes days.
They know you and you know them.
And if you've got a real friendright that they appreciate you,
(19:49):
that they appreciate yourtravel, your journey, all the
ups and all the downs, and youcan say to that person girl or
friend, yeah, that was a.
I look back, that was a badcall and they say, yeah, that
was a bad call, right?
I mean, this is the invitation Ithink that comes from John, you
(20:11):
know at the Jordan River tocome and be yourself, let your
shoulders fall down and knowthat God loves you, but also
know that God is inviting you tosomething that you can't even
imagine the truth, how truth canjust shape your life in ways.
Don't you love 80 and90-year-old people?
(20:33):
I do.
Don't you love 80 and 90 yearold people?
I do, I do, I do, and I evenhave the blessing of knowing
someone who's over a hundred.
You know, there's no pretensewith them, and they will tell
you.
They will tell you some stuffthat you may not even be ready
to hear.
Melissa (20:51):
You know what I'm going to be the coolest 80 year old
fish.
You know what I'm going to bethe coolest 80-year-old fish.
Bishop Rob Wright (20:57):
Well, think about it, and what a gift that
would be to somebody.
Melissa (21:02):
Yeah.
Bishop Rob Wright (21:02):
What a gift it would be to somebody to say I
see you and encourage you andmaybe tell you to lay some other
stuff down, but nevertheless,at the same time, invites you
forward into life.
Oh, my God, I mean you know.
So if we love 80 and 90 yearolds, think about God, who's
older than time, right, yeah,who gets these people like John
(21:25):
to participate with God ininviting us, you know, into a
life?
Melissa (21:30):
a real life.
Maybe the goal isn't perfection, but the goal is being
authentically who we are meantto be.
Bishop Rob Wright (21:38):
I think the word perfect can be a very
dangerous word.
I think it's been weaponized insome families.
It's certainly been weaponizedin some religious traditions.
I think the word is whole,whole, to be integrated, to
integrate the fact that all thequadrants of my journey are
(21:59):
integrated, and so, as far as Iknow, there's nothing better to
integrate all of who I am.
Again, the wonder and the warts, right.
Then a relationship with God.
The Psalms again, they accountfor all of the emotions of life.
(22:20):
Hey, god, where are you?
Abandonment, rejection whydon't my prayers seem to be
answered?
Hallelujah, god, you're sowonderful.
I mean, it spans.
It's all of the emotions.
And you sketch all of thattogether and what we realize is
that God is enough, god for allof the things that we go through
(22:42):
.
And God is like I'm standingright here.
I'm right here with you.
You know there's in Psalm 139,there's nowhere you can go,
nowhere that you can go, that Ican't be with, right beside you.
And I've seen you since yourbirth, right, and I'll be with
you when you have your lastbreath.
(23:03):
And I'm right here.
I think John just doesn't wantto muddy that message.
John just wants to say God isnot to be played with.
God is a serious God, but God'sseriousness is about you
finding real life.
Melissa (23:21):
And thank God for that.
Thank God for that.
Thank you so much for yourwisdom.
Thank you, listeners, fortuning in to Four People.
You can follow us on Instagramand Facebook at Bishop Rob
Wright.
Please subscribe, leave areview and we'll be back with
you next week.
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