May 16, 2025 • 22 mins
God does some of God's best work in the darkness! These painful periods hold unexpected creative potential—a perspective shared by both Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. in his 1964 Nobel Peace Prize speech and Jesus in his final hours with his disciples. Dr. King spoke during a time of profound national division. Yet he saw beyond immediate chaos to "a genuine civilization struggling to be born." Similarly, Jesus, facing betrayal and death, used that moment to wash his disciples' feet and establish a new commandment of love that would define his followers for centuries.
Drawing comparisons between Dr. King's words from and Jesus' commandment in John 13, Melissa and Bishop Wright have a conversation on how turmoil itself can become the raw material for transformation. What current turmoil in your life might contain creative possibility? Listen in fo the full conversation.
Read For Faith, the companion devotional.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Bishop Wright (00:00):
What King is saying in.
Oslo is a reverberation fromwhat he's seen in the American
South trying to do thesewonderful interventions that
bring us to the truth that weare actually siblings and that
this lie called racism iscorrosive to white and black
alike, and corrosive and abetrayal to our American ideals.
(00:23):
And so what he's saying is isthat in this turmoil, you should
realize that there's a creativepossibility.
Melissa (00:40):
Welcome to For People with Bishop Rob Wright.
I'm Melissa Rau and this is aconversation inspired by For
Faith, a weekly devotion sentout every Friday.
You can find a link to thisweek's For Faith and a link to
subscribe in the episode'sdescription.
Good morning, bishop.
Bishop Wright (00:56):
Morning.
Melissa (00:57):
This week's devotion you named creative and it's
based off of Dr.
King's Nobel Peace Prize speechin 1964.
And there's a quote in it.
But here's the interesting partit's also you also are using
John, chapter 13, verses 31through 35.
(01:17):
And, bishop, I couldn't.
I wasn't able to necessarilysee the thread, and so I'm
really intrigued, really, we'retalking about what's going on
when we face turmoil in our life, and how are we being invited
to create a new way forward, aresurrection path, if you will,
(01:41):
our darkest days.
How did you make the leapbetween John 13 and Dr King's
speech?
Bishop Wright (01:47):
My wife says, after reading my writing for
almost three decades, it tellsme all the time there's some
gaps in your thinking sometimes.
Wow, I know, you know what youwant to talk about, but I'm not
sure it always makes it to thepaper.
I love it.
(02:08):
Well, look.
First of all, what I want tosay is that we're in Easter
season, still right, and sowe're writing with an Easter
mind and we're always trying tolook for signs of Easter all
around us.
And what is Easter?
Well, easter is that Godintervened powerfully, right,
and that God's creativity wasnot outdone by our sort of you
(02:33):
know, our evil, frankly speaking, our sin, our division, our
blindness, and so you know welove and serve a creative God.
And I think in 1964, it happensto be the year I was born Dr.
King is in Oslo, norway, and hegives this amazing speech.
And if you haven't read it Iknow we love to read I have a
(02:56):
Dream and that's great.
We should continue, but thisfellow was a genius and he's got
a lot to say, and so don'tlimit yourself.
And you can find it.
Just Google Nobel Peace Prizespeech Dr.
King, 1964.
And it'll pop right up.
You can actually see the videoor you can read the text.
But but what he does, we haveto remember 1964.
(03:18):
So nothing is decided in 64.
At this point I mean, you knowwe're still working on civil
rights They'll get deliveredsoon and then voting rights, and
all of that is still in flux.
The South is still a verydangerous place.
The urban centers are still atinderbox.
You know Vietnam is happening.
(03:41):
We're being lied straight toour face.
We now know we're being liedstraight to our face.
We now know we're being liedstraight to our face.
We're feeding the war machine,our young men from all over the
country, and we know that it issomething that is unwinnable,
untenable.
And now we know, we're so clear, and you know, the society was
just in an absolute turmoil.
(04:01):
So when Dr.
King makes this speech,absolute turmoil.
So when Dr.
King makes this speech, hetalks about God using turmoil
and why that's important.
I think it's not that God iscausing turmoil this is a
critical distinction but thatit's God can use turmoil.
In other words, so what isEaster for us is that nothing is
(04:23):
out of God's reach to use, topush into service for God's
creative, redemptive purposes.
That's the good news.
Right?
I mean Episcopalians, we're aquiet bunch.
But if we were notEpiscopalians this morning
somebody might shout and have ahallelujah party right there.
Have a hallelujah party rightthere.
That any turmoil you findyourself in physical, financial,
(04:45):
societal, organizational is notbeyond God's ability to bring
into service for God'sredemptive purposes.
That's the good news.
That means we are alwaysresourced, always, always,
always resourced.
And it's not about how good youare, how lovely you are, how
much you read the Bible, evenhow much you go to church.
(05:06):
It's just that this is thenature of God.
And so what King is saying inOslo is a reverberation.
You know from what he's seen inthe American South trying to do
these wonderful interventionsthat bring us to the truth that
we are actually siblings andthat this lie called racism is
(05:31):
in fact a lie and is corrosiveto white and black alike, and
corrosive and a betrayal to ourAmerican ideals.
And so what he's saying is thatin this turmoil you should
realize that there's a creativepossibility and that is
hope-inspiring and that beatsback despair.
Because if this is not true,then the worst is true and that
(05:55):
we're going down a hole, we'redoomed and there's no way back.
But he sees in the worst of usGod's ability to bring out of us
our very best, and so he'sencouraging people.
Melissa (06:12):
Yeah, okay, and so is this.
You know, this is the partwhere Jesus is telling the
disciples that where I'm going,you cannot come.
Bishop Wright (06:20):
Right and.
Melissa (06:20):
I'm giving you a new command to love one another.
And so.
I guess it's that love oneanother that makes it all
possible.
Bishop Wright (06:28):
Well, when Jesus says I give you three amazing
sentences, right, I give you anew commandment love one another
, love as I have loved you, andby loving this way, people will
know that you are my disciples.
Three you know amazingsentences, but he does.
He renders these sentences.
You know, after supper he'sjust been betrayed by his buddy,
(06:53):
judas, who was who occupied.
You know the treasurer role youknow, in the little startup
company called the Christian.
You know fledgling Christianmovement and he's facing his own
death.
He's fully aware of this.
So in that turmoil he is beingcreative, because what he's
doing is is he's intervening notonly in the now, in that moment
(07:16):
, with the foot washing, becauseI mean, what would you do if
you got your death sentence inthe mail?
You might not find yourself atthe feet of people, especially
people who are some of them arejust dense, others of them are
(07:36):
duplicitous.
You know others just absolutelyhaven't got a clue and won't
get a clue until you're hangingon a cross, right, and then
maybe even then they might notsort of be able to articulate
what the hell is happening.
So you know, what you got tolove about Jesus is that Jesus
holds to his purpose in themidst of turmoil and therefore
he begins to creatively useturmoil.
(07:57):
So here's the turmoil of thisdinner and he's saying even this
is the raw material for me touse to make this amazing point,
which is to push into the DNA ofthis organization that will go
on after me that we're aboutloving one another and we're not
(08:19):
the sort of model of how tolove.
Love as I have loved you.
There's the model, there's theDNA, there's the brand identity
and as I have loved you.
There's the model, there's theDNA, there's the brand identity.
And then the public face piece.
How will people know anythingabout you after you're long gone
, jesus?
Well, people will know me bythe way.
You love one another, and soall of that, as we well know,
(08:40):
interpersonally andorganizationally, certainly
nationally, internationally, isturmoil.
I mean, just look at the newsthese days.
And so what Jesus does is andwhat King is trying to do that's
the connection is to say to usthere's hope, and also to give
us a future and also to tell ushow to intervene, going forward.
Melissa (09:30):
Yeah, you know, I'm going to read this sentence
because it's absolutelybrilliant and it reeks of
resurrection language withoutsaying resurrection, dr King
says when our days become dreary, with low hovering clouds, and
our nights become darker than athousand midnights, we will know
that we are living in thecreative turmoil of a genuine
(09:53):
civilization struggling to beborn Like.
That, to me, is like theprecipice of resurrection.
Bishop Wright (10:02):
That's right.
That's right.
Yeah, he knows that we'restanding on a precipice, but he,
you know he's also said inother places just because you
don't see the entire staircasedoesn't mean you don't take a
step in faith.
Melissa (10:14):
Right.
Bishop Wright (10:14):
And so, so you know.
And so what inspires us to doextraordinary things?
Well, we have to have somesense that we are giving
ourselves to something that isbigger and maybe even better
than ourselves.
And so he says a genuinecivilization is struggling to be
born.
In other words, there's aninvitation here.
(10:36):
Don't you want to participatein something that is genuine,
that is yearning to be born?
Right, I mean, that goes to ourAmerican DNA.
Right, I mean the best of ourAmerican DNA, which says we come
from lots of different places,but we can find ourselves beside
each other to accomplishamazing things.
It certainly is the ChristianDNA, right, I mean.
(10:58):
So this is why I say the Kingis not only some sort of
eloquent, charming blackpreacher, you know, as some
would want to just limit him tobe.
I mean, this fella is an, he'sa genius.
Melissa (11:08):
Absolutely.
Bishop Wright (11:09):
And he's also read his civics book, right, I
mean, and, and think about how astatement like this hey, join
in with us and let's worktogether to be midwives of a
genuine civilization.
Melissa (11:25):
You said midwives and what I went to was the birthing
table and struggling to be born.
I've delivered three kids.
They've all gone downdifferently and, wow, struggle
is definitely a great word touse, so I guess my question is
about creativity here.
How might we be creative?
Bishop Wright (11:47):
Right, oh, I love this question.
Well, I mean, and here I meanI've quoted this before on a
podcast, but here I just want togive it to you, nice and slow,
because I think that WalterBrueggemann, great Old Testament
theologian, gives us thiswonderful little framing, and
here it is.
He says that to sort ofcontradict the world as it is,
(12:15):
which means the world that issomehow perpendicular to the
mandate of the Gospels love oneanother as I've loved you.
He says that we have to beengaged in dangerous oddness
right, I've said that to youbefore, but dangerous oddness.
And then he tells us, hedefines for us the two ways that
(12:36):
dangerous oddness should look.
Number one, they will exposecontradictions.
And number two, they willpractice alternatives.
So, you know, it's not that weare to be a follower of Jesus.
Always make you sort of awalking talking, you know,
picture of antagonism.
(12:56):
No, it is this embodiment ofthis neighborly love that is
going to, just by living thatout, is going to expose
contradictions.
Right, I mean, again, we've usedJimmy Carter and his
post-presidency.
You know someone who's gone.
He went from the White House,you know, to a single story
(13:21):
ranch house in South Georgia,and yet it impacted so many
people's lives.
Right, he was the contradictionand he exposed contradiction as
well.
Right, he got in a lot oftrouble for exposing
contradiction.
He called the state of Israel.
What's happening there'shappening there.
You know apartheid, and he wasnot wrong.
(13:44):
And now we know that he'sabsolutely right that it is in
fact you know apartheid.
And so it is just a consistent,the persistent, gentle
embodiment of these two ideas toexpose contradiction and then
to practice alternatives.
And so this is what Jesus does,right?
(14:05):
I mean, if you just take thosetwo phrases and you take them to
Matthew, Mark, Luke and John,you will see that Jesus does
that all the time.
He's always exposingcontradictions in his pithy,
wonderful little way, with hisstorytelling, with who he talks
to, with where he spends histime and with whom, and he's
(14:27):
always practicing alternatives.
And so that's, I think, is theway.
And so what all of this impliesis that you and I have a real
deep connection and tethering tohis actual words and ways.
I mean, you can't.
(14:49):
You know, I love jazz, I lovethe great jazz musicians and the
best jazz musicians.
You know, they knew thefundamentals before they took
their flights.
They knew the fundamentalsbefore they took their flights,
right.
And so you think about theseguys Miles Davis, john Coltrane,
charlie Bird, parker and thelike and these fellas were
(15:12):
fundamentally sound.
Melissa (15:14):
Yeah, you know what, though?
Jazz artists are also nottypically soloists.
They feed off of one another.
Bishop Wright (15:21):
No doubt about it .
Well, the best jazz artistsabsolutely are not, it's the
quartets, it's the quintetsright.
Melissa (15:27):
And that's all creative , it's all new.
Bishop Wright (15:31):
And you bring up such an interesting point though
, because when you see, some ofmy favorite jazz selections are
when you've got all of these,the stellar talent together, you
know, on a piece or on an albumMcCoy Tyner, you know, John
Coltrane, Miles Davis, just toname a couple of folks, philly,
(15:51):
joe Jones, you know, and eachone in their own right was
living deeply into what theybelieved was their calling in
their art.
And then to throw that alltogether, so you know, king's
invitation here, you know, tostruggle on and to be creative
in turmoil is also, you know,not an individual call.
(16:14):
It is an individual call, Ishould say, but it is also a
collective call, like find yourquartet right and as each of you
go deeply into your ownpersonal conviction and then
look around and find othersoloists that you guys can make
(16:36):
some.
And King would always talkabout harmony and disharmony.
And so what's phenomenal that'ssuggested here in Jesus Lives
Out, is that even in turmoil thejangling chords, to quote King,
the jangling chords of turmoilsomehow he realizes that he can
(16:58):
find a harmony, and that harmonyis that you and I find this
note that Jesus has played andwe begin to adopt it.
I think it was Herbie Hancock,who was an amazing jazz
keyboardist, who was a veryyoung musician.
The story goes and he won thedream job of a lifetime and he
(17:23):
got to join because he was aprodigy.
And he got to join because hewas a prodigy and he got to join
miles davis.
And so, uh, you know, milesdavis plays his little bit of
solo and then it's sort of overto herbie and herbie is doing
his thing, beautiful, flourishes, etc.
And then towards the end of hisuh, little bit, he plays you
know some wrong notes, right,and he, yeah, some wrong notes.
(17:48):
And and he says you know, mileslooks over at him right, pauses
a minute and, like everybodyknows it's a wrong note, like
everybody knows it's a wrongnote, and, uh, miles looks over
at him and picks up the notethat he plays and finishes the
thing beautifully, wonderfully,amazingly, creatively, right.
(18:12):
And Hancock goes after the setvery apologetically hey man,
sorry, I hit that wrong note, orwhatever.
And you know, miles doesn't,doesn't say much about it.
But what Hancock reflects on isis that, you know, this guy
didn't hear a wrong note, he sawan opportunity, right, exactly.
And this is what we're sayingabout Dr.
(18:34):
King's Nobel Peace Prize thatyou know, we can get stuck in
all the wrong notes of ourpresent society, of our present
society.
What's wonderfully adaptiveabout Jesus's ministry to us is
that Jesus can pick up all thesenotes.
He has such capacity that hecan pick up all these notes and
(18:55):
still make something beautifulout of it.
Melissa (18:58):
I love it.
I also love surprise, and Ifeel like that's exactly what
jazz does.
It takes.
I think it's highlighting adissimilar in a familiar you
know.
And so, Bishop, would you sayanything about surprise and how
we might lean in or even createdourselves in coming alongside
Jesus and doing this work onearth?
Bishop Wright (19:20):
Well, I would say that that's the excitement for
me.
The excitement for me, sowhere's the Holy Spirit in all
this, you might ask.
Well, I that that's theexcitement for me.
The excitement for me, sowhere's the Holy Spirit in all
this, you might ask.
Well, I think that's theexcitement.
The excitement is and I thinkKing talks about this in lots of
ways I think the disciples getsurprised by some people who are
not a part of the 12 doing thething, and they meet that
(19:41):
surprise with disdain and Jesussays hey, man, they're doing the
work, leave them alone, right.
Meet that surprise with disdainand Jesus says, hey, man,
they're doing the work, leavethem alone, right.
So the surprise for me, andwhat's really energizing for me,
is when you go places and youmeet people and you see people
doing the thing and you know soin these surprises you are not.
You realize you're not alone,because sometimes we can get woe
(20:01):
is me and we can get trapped incycles of despair and
loneliness and all that.
And while sometimes that's apart of the faith life, it
shouldn't become the pathology,right, it should be seasonal and
not sort of sustained.
But it's also where you beginto see that while you have some
gifts.
There are lots of other giftsin God's economy, right In God's
(20:25):
beautiful diversity, gifts thatyou couldn't even imagine.
There are vantage points andviewpoints and competencies that
you can't even imagine.
And how.
Best part of my job is knowingnow what my value is and my add
(20:50):
value to the system, and alsoknowing what other partners add
value is, and so in many ways itdoes become creative and it
does help you to process theturmoil and, I think, to meet it
.
So, without that sustaining sortof Holy Spirit surprise, I
think the whole thing would be,you know, biscuits with no gravy
, you know.
(21:10):
But because Holy Spirit isradically active, you know, and
I think also you know, both Kingand Jesus are talking about
this, implying this, you know,we are not left to our own
devices.
That's also the good news,right, I'm going to run my race
with everything that I have, youare going to run yours and so
(21:31):
many others are.
But there is this other piece,this X, that we can't always
account for but yet isnevertheless there, right?
And so in some ways, christianmaturity and deepening of
spirituality is beginning toalways make room for the X Right
(21:51):
, always making room for, youknow, god's Holy Spirit coming
in and throwing a creativeflourish on things that you
could never imagine.
That's why Paul in Ephesians,the third chapter, is that
that's one of my favorite threeand 20, my favorite little bits
and pieces.
God can do infinitely more thanyou can ask or imagine,
(22:11):
according to the faith at workin you.
I love that.
I love that.
It's like you know, look, Ihear somehow.
I hear Paul saying Jesus downthrough the hallways of time.
Melissa (22:22):
I got you man down through the hallways of time.
I got you, man.
Just keep going.
Biscuits and gravy.
Bishop, thank you for yourwisdom and listeners.
Thank you for listening to ForPeople.
You can follow us on Instagramand Facebook at Bishop Rob
Wright, or by visiting www.
forpeople.
digital.
Please subscribe, leave areview and we'll be back with
(22:44):
you next week.
What King is saying in.
Oslo is a reverberation fromwhat he's seen in the American
South trying to do thesewonderful interventions that
bring us to the truth that weare actually siblings and that
this lie called racism iscorrosive to white and black
alike, and corrosive and abetrayal to our American ideals.
(00:23):
And so what he's saying is isthat in this turmoil, you should
realize that there's a creativepossibility.
Melissa (00:40):
Welcome to For People with Bishop Rob Wright.
I'm Melissa Rau and this is aconversation inspired by For
Faith, a weekly devotion sentout every Friday.
You can find a link to thisweek's For Faith and a link to
subscribe in the episode'sdescription.
Good morning, bishop.
Bishop Wright (00:56):
Morning.
Melissa (00:57):
This week's devotion you named creative and it's
based off of Dr.
King's Nobel Peace Prize speechin 1964.
And there's a quote in it.
But here's the interesting partit's also you also are using
John, chapter 13, verses 31through 35.
(01:17):
And, bishop, I couldn't.
I wasn't able to necessarilysee the thread, and so I'm
really intrigued, really, we'retalking about what's going on
when we face turmoil in our life, and how are we being invited
to create a new way forward, aresurrection path, if you will,
(01:41):
our darkest days.
How did you make the leapbetween John 13 and Dr King's
speech?
Bishop Wright (01:47):
My wife says, after reading my writing for
almost three decades, it tellsme all the time there's some
gaps in your thinking sometimes.
Wow, I know, you know what youwant to talk about, but I'm not
sure it always makes it to thepaper.
I love it.
(02:08):
Well, look.
First of all, what I want tosay is that we're in Easter
season, still right, and sowe're writing with an Easter
mind and we're always trying tolook for signs of Easter all
around us.
And what is Easter?
Well, easter is that Godintervened powerfully, right,
and that God's creativity wasnot outdone by our sort of you
(02:33):
know, our evil, frankly speaking, our sin, our division, our
blindness, and so you know welove and serve a creative God.
And I think in 1964, it happensto be the year I was born Dr.
King is in Oslo, norway, and hegives this amazing speech.
And if you haven't read it Iknow we love to read I have a
(02:56):
Dream and that's great.
We should continue, but thisfellow was a genius and he's got
a lot to say, and so don'tlimit yourself.
And you can find it.
Just Google Nobel Peace Prizespeech Dr.
King, 1964.
And it'll pop right up.
You can actually see the videoor you can read the text.
But but what he does, we haveto remember 1964.
(03:18):
So nothing is decided in 64.
At this point I mean, you knowwe're still working on civil
rights They'll get deliveredsoon and then voting rights, and
all of that is still in flux.
The South is still a verydangerous place.
The urban centers are still atinderbox.
You know Vietnam is happening.
(03:41):
We're being lied straight toour face.
We now know we're being liedstraight to our face.
We now know we're being liedstraight to our face.
We're feeding the war machine,our young men from all over the
country, and we know that it issomething that is unwinnable,
untenable.
And now we know, we're so clear, and you know, the society was
just in an absolute turmoil.
(04:01):
So when Dr.
King makes this speech,absolute turmoil.
So when Dr.
King makes this speech, hetalks about God using turmoil
and why that's important.
I think it's not that God iscausing turmoil this is a
critical distinction but thatit's God can use turmoil.
In other words, so what isEaster for us is that nothing is
(04:23):
out of God's reach to use, topush into service for God's
creative, redemptive purposes.
That's the good news.
Right?
I mean Episcopalians, we're aquiet bunch.
But if we were notEpiscopalians this morning
somebody might shout and have ahallelujah party right there.
Have a hallelujah party rightthere.
That any turmoil you findyourself in physical, financial,
(04:45):
societal, organizational is notbeyond God's ability to bring
into service for God'sredemptive purposes.
That's the good news.
That means we are alwaysresourced, always, always,
always resourced.
And it's not about how good youare, how lovely you are, how
much you read the Bible, evenhow much you go to church.
(05:06):
It's just that this is thenature of God.
And so what King is saying inOslo is a reverberation.
You know from what he's seen inthe American South trying to do
these wonderful interventionsthat bring us to the truth that
we are actually siblings andthat this lie called racism is
(05:31):
in fact a lie and is corrosiveto white and black alike, and
corrosive and a betrayal to ourAmerican ideals.
And so what he's saying is thatin this turmoil you should
realize that there's a creativepossibility and that is
hope-inspiring and that beatsback despair.
Because if this is not true,then the worst is true and that
(05:55):
we're going down a hole, we'redoomed and there's no way back.
But he sees in the worst of usGod's ability to bring out of us
our very best, and so he'sencouraging people.
Melissa (06:12):
Yeah, okay, and so is this.
You know, this is the partwhere Jesus is telling the
disciples that where I'm going,you cannot come.
Bishop Wright (06:20):
Right and.
Melissa (06:20):
I'm giving you a new command to love one another.
And so.
I guess it's that love oneanother that makes it all
possible.
Bishop Wright (06:28):
Well, when Jesus says I give you three amazing
sentences, right, I give you anew commandment love one another
, love as I have loved you, andby loving this way, people will
know that you are my disciples.
Three you know amazingsentences, but he does.
He renders these sentences.
You know, after supper he'sjust been betrayed by his buddy,
(06:53):
judas, who was who occupied.
You know the treasurer role youknow, in the little startup
company called the Christian.
You know fledgling Christianmovement and he's facing his own
death.
He's fully aware of this.
So in that turmoil he is beingcreative, because what he's
doing is is he's intervening notonly in the now, in that moment
(07:16):
, with the foot washing, becauseI mean, what would you do if
you got your death sentence inthe mail?
You might not find yourself atthe feet of people, especially
people who are some of them arejust dense, others of them are
(07:36):
duplicitous.
You know others just absolutelyhaven't got a clue and won't
get a clue until you're hangingon a cross, right, and then
maybe even then they might notsort of be able to articulate
what the hell is happening.
So you know, what you got tolove about Jesus is that Jesus
holds to his purpose in themidst of turmoil and therefore
he begins to creatively useturmoil.
(07:57):
So here's the turmoil of thisdinner and he's saying even this
is the raw material for me touse to make this amazing point,
which is to push into the DNA ofthis organization that will go
on after me that we're aboutloving one another and we're not
(08:19):
the sort of model of how tolove.
Love as I have loved you.
There's the model, there's theDNA, there's the brand identity
and as I have loved you.
There's the model, there's theDNA, there's the brand identity.
And then the public face piece.
How will people know anythingabout you after you're long gone
, jesus?
Well, people will know me bythe way.
You love one another, and soall of that, as we well know,
(08:40):
interpersonally andorganizationally, certainly
nationally, internationally, isturmoil.
I mean, just look at the newsthese days.
And so what Jesus does is andwhat King is trying to do that's
the connection is to say to usthere's hope, and also to give
us a future and also to tell ushow to intervene, going forward.
Melissa (09:30):
Yeah, you know, I'm going to read this sentence
because it's absolutelybrilliant and it reeks of
resurrection language withoutsaying resurrection, dr King
says when our days become dreary, with low hovering clouds, and
our nights become darker than athousand midnights, we will know
that we are living in thecreative turmoil of a genuine
(09:53):
civilization struggling to beborn Like.
That, to me, is like theprecipice of resurrection.
Bishop Wright (10:02):
That's right.
That's right.
Yeah, he knows that we'restanding on a precipice, but he,
you know he's also said inother places just because you
don't see the entire staircasedoesn't mean you don't take a
step in faith.
Melissa (10:14):
Right.
Bishop Wright (10:14):
And so, so you know.
And so what inspires us to doextraordinary things?
Well, we have to have somesense that we are giving
ourselves to something that isbigger and maybe even better
than ourselves.
And so he says a genuinecivilization is struggling to be
born.
In other words, there's aninvitation here.
(10:36):
Don't you want to participatein something that is genuine,
that is yearning to be born?
Right, I mean, that goes to ourAmerican DNA.
Right, I mean the best of ourAmerican DNA, which says we come
from lots of different places,but we can find ourselves beside
each other to accomplishamazing things.
It certainly is the ChristianDNA, right, I mean.
(10:58):
So this is why I say the Kingis not only some sort of
eloquent, charming blackpreacher, you know, as some
would want to just limit him tobe.
I mean, this fella is an, he'sa genius.
Melissa (11:08):
Absolutely.
Bishop Wright (11:09):
And he's also read his civics book, right, I
mean, and, and think about how astatement like this hey, join
in with us and let's worktogether to be midwives of a
genuine civilization.
Melissa (11:25):
You said midwives and what I went to was the birthing
table and struggling to be born.
I've delivered three kids.
They've all gone downdifferently and, wow, struggle
is definitely a great word touse, so I guess my question is
about creativity here.
How might we be creative?
Bishop Wright (11:47):
Right, oh, I love this question.
Well, I mean, and here I meanI've quoted this before on a
podcast, but here I just want togive it to you, nice and slow,
because I think that WalterBrueggemann, great Old Testament
theologian, gives us thiswonderful little framing, and
here it is.
He says that to sort ofcontradict the world as it is,
(12:15):
which means the world that issomehow perpendicular to the
mandate of the Gospels love oneanother as I've loved you.
He says that we have to beengaged in dangerous oddness
right, I've said that to youbefore, but dangerous oddness.
And then he tells us, hedefines for us the two ways that
(12:36):
dangerous oddness should look.
Number one, they will exposecontradictions.
And number two, they willpractice alternatives.
So, you know, it's not that weare to be a follower of Jesus.
Always make you sort of awalking talking, you know,
picture of antagonism.
(12:56):
No, it is this embodiment ofthis neighborly love that is
going to, just by living thatout, is going to expose
contradictions.
Right, I mean, again, we've usedJimmy Carter and his
post-presidency.
You know someone who's gone.
He went from the White House,you know, to a single story
(13:21):
ranch house in South Georgia,and yet it impacted so many
people's lives.
Right, he was the contradictionand he exposed contradiction as
well.
Right, he got in a lot oftrouble for exposing
contradiction.
He called the state of Israel.
What's happening there'shappening there.
You know apartheid, and he wasnot wrong.
(13:44):
And now we know that he'sabsolutely right that it is in
fact you know apartheid.
And so it is just a consistent,the persistent, gentle
embodiment of these two ideas toexpose contradiction and then
to practice alternatives.
And so this is what Jesus does,right?
(14:05):
I mean, if you just take thosetwo phrases and you take them to
Matthew, Mark, Luke and John,you will see that Jesus does
that all the time.
He's always exposingcontradictions in his pithy,
wonderful little way, with hisstorytelling, with who he talks
to, with where he spends histime and with whom, and he's
(14:27):
always practicing alternatives.
And so that's, I think, is theway.
And so what all of this impliesis that you and I have a real
deep connection and tethering tohis actual words and ways.
I mean, you can't.
(14:49):
You know, I love jazz, I lovethe great jazz musicians and the
best jazz musicians.
You know, they knew thefundamentals before they took
their flights.
They knew the fundamentalsbefore they took their flights,
right.
And so you think about theseguys Miles Davis, john Coltrane,
charlie Bird, parker and thelike and these fellas were
(15:12):
fundamentally sound.
Melissa (15:14):
Yeah, you know what, though?
Jazz artists are also nottypically soloists.
They feed off of one another.
Bishop Wright (15:21):
No doubt about it .
Well, the best jazz artistsabsolutely are not, it's the
quartets, it's the quintetsright.
Melissa (15:27):
And that's all creative , it's all new.
Bishop Wright (15:31):
And you bring up such an interesting point though
, because when you see, some ofmy favorite jazz selections are
when you've got all of these,the stellar talent together, you
know, on a piece or on an albumMcCoy Tyner, you know, John
Coltrane, Miles Davis, just toname a couple of folks, philly,
(15:51):
joe Jones, you know, and eachone in their own right was
living deeply into what theybelieved was their calling in
their art.
And then to throw that alltogether, so you know, king's
invitation here, you know, tostruggle on and to be creative
in turmoil is also, you know,not an individual call.
(16:14):
It is an individual call, Ishould say, but it is also a
collective call, like find yourquartet right and as each of you
go deeply into your ownpersonal conviction and then
look around and find othersoloists that you guys can make
(16:36):
some.
And King would always talkabout harmony and disharmony.
And so what's phenomenal that'ssuggested here in Jesus Lives
Out, is that even in turmoil thejangling chords, to quote King,
the jangling chords of turmoilsomehow he realizes that he can
(16:58):
find a harmony, and that harmonyis that you and I find this
note that Jesus has played andwe begin to adopt it.
I think it was Herbie Hancock,who was an amazing jazz
keyboardist, who was a veryyoung musician.
The story goes and he won thedream job of a lifetime and he
(17:23):
got to join because he was aprodigy.
And he got to join because hewas a prodigy and he got to join
miles davis.
And so, uh, you know, milesdavis plays his little bit of
solo and then it's sort of overto herbie and herbie is doing
his thing, beautiful, flourishes, etc.
And then towards the end of hisuh, little bit, he plays you
know some wrong notes, right,and he, yeah, some wrong notes.
(17:48):
And and he says you know, mileslooks over at him right, pauses
a minute and, like everybodyknows it's a wrong note, like
everybody knows it's a wrongnote, and, uh, miles looks over
at him and picks up the notethat he plays and finishes the
thing beautifully, wonderfully,amazingly, creatively, right.
(18:12):
And Hancock goes after the setvery apologetically hey man,
sorry, I hit that wrong note, orwhatever.
And you know, miles doesn't,doesn't say much about it.
But what Hancock reflects on isis that, you know, this guy
didn't hear a wrong note, he sawan opportunity, right, exactly.
And this is what we're sayingabout Dr.
(18:34):
King's Nobel Peace Prize thatyou know, we can get stuck in
all the wrong notes of ourpresent society, of our present
society.
What's wonderfully adaptiveabout Jesus's ministry to us is
that Jesus can pick up all thesenotes.
He has such capacity that hecan pick up all these notes and
(18:55):
still make something beautifulout of it.
Melissa (18:58):
I love it.
I also love surprise, and Ifeel like that's exactly what
jazz does.
It takes.
I think it's highlighting adissimilar in a familiar you
know.
And so, Bishop, would you sayanything about surprise and how
we might lean in or even createdourselves in coming alongside
Jesus and doing this work onearth?
Bishop Wright (19:20):
Well, I would say that that's the excitement for
me.
The excitement for me, sowhere's the Holy Spirit in all
this, you might ask.
Well, I that that's theexcitement for me.
The excitement for me, sowhere's the Holy Spirit in all
this, you might ask.
Well, I think that's theexcitement.
The excitement is and I thinkKing talks about this in lots of
ways I think the disciples getsurprised by some people who are
not a part of the 12 doing thething, and they meet that
(19:41):
surprise with disdain and Jesussays hey, man, they're doing the
work, leave them alone, right.
Meet that surprise with disdainand Jesus says, hey, man,
they're doing the work, leavethem alone, right.
So the surprise for me, andwhat's really energizing for me,
is when you go places and youmeet people and you see people
doing the thing and you know soin these surprises you are not.
You realize you're not alone,because sometimes we can get woe
(20:01):
is me and we can get trapped incycles of despair and
loneliness and all that.
And while sometimes that's apart of the faith life, it
shouldn't become the pathology,right, it should be seasonal and
not sort of sustained.
But it's also where you beginto see that while you have some
gifts.
There are lots of other giftsin God's economy, right In God's
(20:25):
beautiful diversity, gifts thatyou couldn't even imagine.
There are vantage points andviewpoints and competencies that
you can't even imagine.
And how.
Best part of my job is knowingnow what my value is and my add
(20:50):
value to the system, and alsoknowing what other partners add
value is, and so in many ways itdoes become creative and it
does help you to process theturmoil and, I think, to meet it
.
So, without that sustaining sortof Holy Spirit surprise, I
think the whole thing would be,you know, biscuits with no gravy
, you know.
(21:10):
But because Holy Spirit isradically active, you know, and
I think also you know, both Kingand Jesus are talking about
this, implying this, you know,we are not left to our own
devices.
That's also the good news,right, I'm going to run my race
with everything that I have, youare going to run yours and so
(21:31):
many others are.
But there is this other piece,this X, that we can't always
account for but yet isnevertheless there, right?
And so in some ways, christianmaturity and deepening of
spirituality is beginning toalways make room for the X Right
(21:51):
, always making room for, youknow, god's Holy Spirit coming
in and throwing a creativeflourish on things that you
could never imagine.
That's why Paul in Ephesians,the third chapter, is that
that's one of my favorite threeand 20, my favorite little bits
and pieces.
God can do infinitely more thanyou can ask or imagine,
(22:11):
according to the faith at workin you.
I love that.
I love that.
It's like you know, look, Ihear somehow.
I hear Paul saying Jesus downthrough the hallways of time.
Melissa (22:22):
I got you man down through the hallways of time.
I got you, man.
Just keep going.
Biscuits and gravy.
Bishop, thank you for yourwisdom and listeners.
Thank you for listening to ForPeople.
You can follow us on Instagramand Facebook at Bishop Rob
Wright, or by visiting www.
forpeople.
digital.
Please subscribe, leave areview and we'll be back with
(22:44):
you next week.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy And Charlamagne Tha God!
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.