November 21, 2025 • 27 mins
What if the kingdom of God becomes visible not in our theories but in our steps? Dietrich Bonhoeffer’s theology reframes discipleship as embodied obedience—showing up in prisons, sharing real mutuality, and trading religious privilege for humble responsibility.
In this episode, Bishop Wright has a conversation with The Rev. Dr. Jenny M. McBride, Associate Rector of All Saints' Atlanta and president of the International Bonhoeffer Society. Jenny shares how reading Bonhoeffer at an urban house of hospitality opened a door from evangelical ideas to lived formation. That path led her into prison classrooms where fashion small talk mingled with raw theological questions, and where “helping” gave way to being helped.
They discuss Luke 10’s sentness, why belief grows when we go where Jesus intends to go, and how visiting the incarcerated unmasks our craving for superiority. Responsibility becomes the antidote to Christian nationalism’s power hunger, and repentance becomes a daily practice that forms courage and tenderness. Listen in for the full conversation.
The Rev. Dr. Jennifer M. McBride (Ph.D. University of Virginia) is Associate Rector at All Saints’ Episcopal Church in Atlanta. Previously she served as an Associate Dean and Associate Professor of Theology and Ethics at McCormick Theological Seminary in Chicago and held the Board of Regents Endowed Chair in Ethics at Wartburg College in Iowa. After a Postdoctoral Fellowship in Religious Practices and Practical Theology at Emory University, McBride directed a theology certificate program for incarcerated women through Emory's Candler School of Theology.
McBride is author of You Shall Not Condemn: A Story of Faith and Advocacy on Death Row (Cascade, 2022), Radical Discipleship: A Liturgical Politics of the Gospel (Fortress, 2017), The Church for the World: A Theology of Public Witness (Oxford University Press, 2011), and is co-editor of Bonhoeffer and King: Their Legacies and Import for Christian Social Thought. In addition to book chapters and scholarly articles, her work has appeared in popular publications like The Christian Century and CNN.com and has been featured in the New York Times.
McBride is the recent past president of the International Bonhoeffer Society – English Language Section, an organization made up of scholars, religious leaders, and readers of German pastor-theologian and Nazi-resister, Dietrich Bonhoeffer. She serves as co-editor of the T&T Clark book series, New Studies in Bonhoeffer’s Theology and Ethics.
She is married to Dr. Thomas Fabisiak, who is the co-executive director of the Georgia Coalition for Higher Ed in Prison and Associate Dean at Life University, where he runs a college degree program for women in Georgia prisons.
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The Rev. Dr. Jenny M. McBrid (00:00):
So when we're actually doing
incarnational ministry, puttingour bodies in these places, we
see that we can't beself-righteous because we have a
lot to confess.
Um, I mean, your wordresponsibility is such an
important word for Bonhoeffer'stheology, too, that we take
responsibility for sin in theworld because that's what Jesus
did on the cross.
So it leads to a posture ofsort of continual repentance,
(00:24):
which, if you're really livingthat way, you're gonna become a
more humble person.
(00:46):
Good morning, I am Bishop Rob Wright and this if For People. Todaywe have a special guest, the
Reverend Dr.
Jenny McBride.
Jenny, good morning.
The Rev. Dr. Jenny M. McBr (00:51):
Good morning.
Bishop Wright (00:53):
Jenny attended uh the University of North
Carolina at Chapel Hill and hasan MA and a PhD in religious
studies from the University ofVirginia.
Uh, she is all abouttheological education and
formation and has served on thefaculty of Wartburg College in
rural Iowa and McCormickTheological Seminary in Chicago.
(01:14):
She's an author uh and uh thepresident of the International
Bonhoeffer Society.
Uh she's ordained as anEpiscopal priest and serves here
in the Episcopal Diocese ofAtlanta.
She's married to Thomas, andthey love hiking, biking, and
swimming.
Jenny, I'm so glad to have youuh on today.
(01:36):
And uh I want to get right toit.
Uh, you've done a lot of workin writing and thinking about
Dietrich Bonhoeffer.
Uh, and you're paying a lot ofattention to where we are uh in
uh in America, in the state ofGeorgia, and in the world.
What does Dietrich Bonhoefferhave to say to us now?
The Rev. Dr. Jenny M. McBr (01:55):
Yes.
Um, you know, Bonhoeffer isgetting a lot of attention in
this moment.
I think for good reason.
He was a 20th-century Germanpastor theologian, Nazi
resister.
He has, for someone who is aphilosophical theologian, he has
quite an interesting story.
What most people know about himis that he was part of a
(02:18):
conspiracy to assassinateHitler.
Um, but actually kind ofbeginning there or focusing on
that, I think can often uh leadto a lot of misuses of
Bonhoeffer and really kind ofpaint um a skewed picture.
He was actually had a verystrong peace ethic.
Uh, he wrote 10,000 pages oftheology.
He was useful, I think, mostlyas a theologian, even though he,
(02:43):
you know, found himself uh inthe midst of um this conspiracy
theory because he was connectedto a brother and brother-in-laws
who are part of the Abwehrmovement, the military
intelligence, one of the groupsthat was trying uh to do
something about Hitler.
But really, I think he's usefulto us as a theologian, first
and foremost.
Bishop Wright (03:03):
Yeah.
Say more about that.
So if he's a theologian, thatmeans he has some sort of sense
of the divine uh that is, youknow, has intrigued you at
least.
I mean, you you're a scholar.
There's uh, you know, millionsof people to study and how
they've tried to hold theirfaith in the in the times that
they that they lived.
Uh what's his appeal for you?
And then, you know, if youthink about uh the ways in which
(03:26):
he thought about God, um, whatsort of arrests you and grabs
you?
The Rev. Dr. Jenny M. McB (03:30):
Well, my background is that I grew up
conservative evangelical uh inthe Presbyterian Church of
America.
Um and I was religious studiesmajor as an undergrad.
I was kind of always atheologian, even as a very young
girl.
I sort of took what I waslearning and took it to the
logical.
And um, and I was alreadyasking a lot of questions about
(03:51):
sort of the theologicalframework that I had been given
as an evangelical.
I was um working at uh aministry.
They didn't really necessarilylike to call it a ministry, but
it was sort of an urban house ofhospitality in Washington, D.C.
And I can say more about that.
It's called the Southeast WhiteHouse.
And we were sitting around thekitchen table and read uh
Bonhoeffer's life together for,and that's the first time I
(04:14):
really encountered Bonhoeffer.
I love that I encountered himin the context of ministry, not
in the Ivory Tower, but then itled me to want to study
Bonhoeffer more.
But in those first moments, itwas really that he um he was
talking about Jesus, his all ofhis theology um uh is really
Christology, meaning the studyof who Jesus is.
(04:34):
As an evangelical, his focus onJesus made me feel comfortable
and it felt familiar.
But he was saying a lot ofthings in really fresh new ways
that I'd never heard before.
Bishop Wright (04:44):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Interesting.
So so uh so what was he sayingthat was so fresh?
The Rev. Dr. Jenny M. McB (04:51):
Well, it's in it's I've thought about
this in the context of nowbeing an Episcopalian, maybe
maybe, maybe it won't seem soradical, but um but well the f
one of the things he was sayingis that he had a real sense of
the this worldliness ofChristian faith.
So of course, God istranscendent.
(05:12):
Um of course he believes ineternal life, these sorts of
things.
But really, the whole point ofthe faith is not um, as it was
in my context growing up, allabout going to heaven or hell.
Um it was about um it was aboutthe kingdom of God coming to
earth, which is really what thesynoptic gospels are all about.
(05:33):
That piece.
And then also the faith isreally discipleship.
It's it's following Jesus in aconcrete, literal way, obeying
Jesus' commands and teachings.
Again, I hope that doesn'tsound that radical to uh
Episcopalians or the AnglicanCommunion, but I think for a lot
of our um denominations, uh itis a kind of different way of
(05:58):
thinking about the faith.
Bishop Wright (06:00):
No, absolutely.
I mean, you know, uh lots of uhuh faithful people sort of um
think of um service on earth asuh, you know, uh in a crass, you
know, crassly put uh a way tosort of buy your ticket and get
your ticket punched uh, youknow, to uh eternal life, right?
(06:22):
You know, a sort of a cruiseship uh in eternity where you
know streets are gold and allyour needs are met.
Yeah.
Um and so there every car everysort of denomination has its
version of that.
Uh but you know, the the folksthat always grab my attention
are the people who uh think ofthe world as a place where the
(06:43):
kingdom of God is alreadypresent and that adventure, uh
discipleship, adventure,following Jesus intimately, uh
resolutely, means being andseeing the kingdom here and now,
right?
Uh is have I got that right?
The Rev. Dr. Jenny M. McB (07:00):
Well, I think so.
I mean the way that the wayI've come to say it, and I'm my
work has been sort ofconstructive theology.
So it's not just saying, here'sBonhoeffer, this is what he
says, so therefore this is whatwe should think, but how can the
way he's thinking um help usthink in our own context?
So the way I've been um sayingit is that really the when we
(07:20):
when we obey Jesus' commands, wemake visible the kingdom of God
on earth.
Um and so so it really is umit's a I I love the word
participation.
I think it's like a reallybeautiful theological word that
we're participating in what inwhat God has already done
through Christ, and yet we areto participate, we are to
(07:42):
partner with God and God's workin this world.
Bishop Wright (08:08):
You said a dirty word there.
I don't know if you know it.
Uh you said a big dirty wordfor the modern mind, and that
that was uh obedience.
Yes.
Obedience.
And and funny enough, you know,I think it's right that you and
I met or at least got to got achance to know each other a
little bit, actually at in aprison.
The Rev. Dr. Jenny M. McBr (08:30):
Yes.
Bishop Wright (08:31):
Um we we weren't uh we we weren't inmates.
Uh we were we were there.
We were there, uh I think as anextension of trying to be
obedient.
Um we we were there to to bewith the incarcerated um because
you know in Matthew 25, we'retold that we ought to, that's
what followers do.
They they they visit theincarcerated.
(08:53):
There's a list of people weought to visit.
And the the Bible goes on tosay, when we visit those folks,
it is as if uh we are visitingthe Lord Himself.
Uh and so you you and I met atArendale prison uh and uh and
you know, there in terms of uhbeing alongside uh sisters, it's
(09:15):
a it's a uh a female prison.
Uh and uh hopefully uh sharingthe good news, uh, but also uh
you know, pointing to the goodnews that we saw, you know,
already there.
So so did you get to thatprison ministry uh out of
obedience?
And tell me just a little bitabout your life with prisons.
The Rev. Dr. Jenny M. McB (09:33):
Yeah, that's the way I talk about it,
certainly, is that it'sobedience to Jesus' command of
visit the prisoner.
But the the way it came about,interesting how things all
connect.
I was um after my PhD at UVA, Icame to Atlanta for the first
time to do a postdoc fellowshipat Emory.
And um, that was 2008, fall of2008.
Liz Bounds, who's an ethicistat Emory, um, was just starting
(09:57):
a pilot program uh inpartnership with our friend uh
Chaplins, who's a bishop.
And I got invited to just inthe pilot to just teach a class
session on Bonhoeff.
Um and it was my first time ina prison.
And um, that experience ofbeing in the classroom with
people who were so hospitable tome.
(10:19):
I you know, I rememberthinking, well, what am I
supposed to wear?
Like I knew the dress code, butare they gonna think I'm just
this like white girl, southern,you know, southern bell who
doesn't know what she's doing?
Um, and so I thought, andfinally I just realized I can
only be myself.
I can only wear the clothes Ihave in my closet.
So I went uh had this classroomexperience, you know, in the
(10:40):
middle of it, it was a break forbathroom, and I'm, you know,
everyone's lining up in the inthe quote inmate bathroom line.
And then there's anotherbathroom, I can't remember what
it was called, but it's forguests, I guess.
And I stood in the line withthe women uh and talked to them,
and and there was a couple ofthings that happened.
One was that that they all werelike, oh, I love your boots and
(11:03):
I love your shirt.
And you know, we connected overour love for fashion, which was
fun.
Um, and they also kind ofnoticed that I I stayed in line
with them and was sort of wasn'tgoing to the other bathroom but
was hanging out with them.
And I think I was told I had touse the other restroom, not
their restroom.
So I finally did.
Um, but that one class period,um, you know, the the rawness of
(11:28):
the conversation, the thedesire to really grapple with
these uh questions of faith, youknow, all we did was bring in
some theological texts and thenthe conversations that arose.
So for me, I think of it reallyin terms of like um mutual
friendship and thetransformation that can only
happen through an action throughtruly true mutuality.
(11:49):
Um, and that happened because Ihad no idea what I was doing
inside that space.
So they had to be my guides,they had to be my teachers.
And in the classroom space, Ihad no idea how they would
receive the theology.
I didn't know anything abouttheir lives.
They're the experts on theirlives and they're the experts on
prisons because they livethere.
So um, so it was a genuine, youknow, it wasn't like, okay, I'm
(12:12):
I'm gonna act like this ismutual.
It genuinely was mutual.
Bishop Wright (12:16):
Yeah.
So so kingdom came near thatday, right?
And uh, and and what I loveabout kingdom is kingdom is
always so tricky.
You know, we who uh walkthrough the gates to go and to
be with out of obedience, Ibelieve as we should, uh, might
go harboring ideas that thatwe're going to be the givers.
And then surprise, surprise,kingdom is always tricky.
(12:40):
And so even as you give, I cantell you, I've walked out of
many a jail uh and federalprison, knowing uh that uh that
I have received the lion's shareof the blessing that day,
hoping that I was of somebenefit to somebody, but knowing
as I got in my car and wentback to my life, that I had
received such a benefit uh frompeople's experience of God, from
(13:05):
their warmth to me, theirwelcome to me, um, from allowing
me uh to actually experiencewhat Jesus wanted us to
experience, which is come andknow me uh, you know, through my
words and through the placesthat I want you to go.
That's how you really get toknow me.
The Rev. Dr. Jenny M. McBride (13:24):
I mean, another, you know, it
reminds me of another part ofBonhoeffer that I love so much
in discipleships, often uhentitled Cost of Discipleship.
He talks about um that we haveto get into a new situation
where we can learn to believe.
And so belief is not just this,it doesn't come from like
abstract, disembodiedintellectual thinking.
It comes from the actualpractice of trusting Jesus and
(13:47):
literally following him into theplaces where he leads.
Bishop Wright (13:50):
I'm listening to you and I'm thinking about so I
have annual council coming up,which is our big annual event
where we have uh, you know,representatives from all of our
congregations, et cetera.
And and the text I'm thinkingabout is uh and and writing on
already is Luke 10, where whereJesus sends uh he appoints 70
(14:12):
and and sends them to all thetowns, uh two by two, and all
the towns it says um, you know,where Jesus himself intended to
go.
And so, you know, but butthere's that word sent, right?
Uh, and and you know, I I thinkwe we have to use that word
more, um, is that we go not outof our own authority, we go not
(14:35):
even out of our own goodness ifwe have any goodness at all, but
we we go because we've beencommissioned to go, right, to
reveal, right, that that thingthat Jesus wants revealed in the
places that Jesus wants it uhyou know revealed.
And so when I hear you talkabout uh your experience uh you
know in the prisons and with thewith the folks there, um you
(14:57):
know, there there is a uh arevelation of of the Lord that
can only be experienced uh ifyou walk in sentness.
Yes.
If that makes any sense.
The Rev. Dr. Jenny M. McB (15:06):
Yeah, and it it actually reminds me
of another um important passagefor me from Bonhoeffer.
Um it's in his letters andpapers from prison.
He taught he says, What does itmean for the church to be
called out, but not seen, notseeing itself as religiously
privileged, but belonging whollyto the world?
Bishop Wright (15:25):
Whoa, whoa, hold on, hold on.
That's good.
That's good.
You gotta you gotta do that onemore time.
Do it slow.
That's good.
The Rev. Dr. Jenny M. McBr (15:31):
This is a paraphrase with a few
quotes in it.
Yeah.
I'm getting it right.
Um, what does it mean to be thechurch, the ecclesia, as people
who are called out, but notseeing ourselves as religiously
privileged, but rather asbelonging wholly to the world.
So I, you know, a lot of reallybecause I grew up evangelical,
(15:52):
a lot of and all my academicwork came out of these
existential real questions Ihad, you know, the idea of
witness and of being sent and umwas was so important and it
still is to me.
But I think a lot of what wesee um, you know, in where we
are now with sort of the rise ofChristian nationalism and um
just and even even before thatis a sense that so many of our
(16:16):
churches and denominations havea sense that we are religiously
privileged, yeah, we have thetruth, that we have morality.
And I'm not saying we we, youknow, certainly, well, I'll just
say this that this idea that wewe have these things, um, and
instead of seeing that the truthis Jesus, a person, and that we
are witnesses and that theBible is a witness, um, we think
(16:39):
that we kind of possess thesethings.
And that whole way of being isum leads to a lot of uh
anti-gospel, really.
Bishop Wright (16:48):
Yeah, you know, what it what it you're you're
nicer than I am, what it leads,I think, to is a counterfeit
gospel.
And it it it um, you know, inthe worst case uh uh uh you know
sort of situation, it it leadsto a religious deceitfulness,
right?
Which is which is to to sort ofmobilize people, you know,
(17:08):
based on falsehood.
I mean, and we see we see thatuh in what I call today the
pyrotechnic power hungry gospel,right?
So so to say that I'm notreligiously privileged because
uh because I have been swept upin the life of Christ, but to
say that that means that Ibelong to the whole as Christ
himself belonged to the wholeflips the paradigm on its head.
(17:32):
You know, Walter Brugermantalked about chosenness, not not
as um you know, not asentitlement, but as
responsibility, right?
And as to be a steward of, youknow, if there's any uniqueness
in it, it is to be the stewardof something, you know, holy and
glorious that gets poured outfor the world, and particularly
(17:55):
in what I like to call thefingernail dirty places of the
world.
The Rev. Dr. Jenny M. McB (17:59):
Yeah, and I mean I think it leads to
a deep self-righteousness and aposture of judging others.
And um, and I mean that getsback to the going into the
prison, the the the if it'sabout the not the belief in
Jesus, but the following ofJesus, the practices, then when
you actually put yourself incomplex spaces like the prison,
(18:22):
I mean, all of our life is iscomplex, every ethical issue is
incredibly complex.
But when you put yourselfthere, you suddenly realize, oh,
I can't really be like morallypure.
I'm not, I don't, you know, I'mI'm getting myself dirty in
some way.
Because, for example, you know,um you well, actually Thomas
(18:43):
talks about this quite a lotbecause in my husband, because
in his work, he was running ahigher ed imprison program for a
long time where he was insidethe prison to the a volunteer,
but to the point that he hadkeys.
He talks about the experienceof walking alongside some
people, and then you get to agate and you have to close the
gate and you have to lock it,even if they ask, Well, can I
come through?
(19:03):
Really?
I just need to cut through.
And he says no.
And in that sense, he's thenkind of on the side of the
officers, not really where hewants to be.
And so, so what it so whenwe're actually uh doing
incarnational ministry, puttingour bodies in these places, we
see um we see that we can't beself-righteous because we have a
(19:23):
lot to confess.
And we're can we're um, I mean,your line, your word
responsibility is such animportant word for Bonhoeffer's
theology, too, that we takeresponsibility for sin in the
world because that's what Jesusdid on the cross.
And so um, so it it leads to aposture of sort of continual
repentance, which if you'rereally living that way, you're
(19:44):
gonna become a more humbleperson.
Bishop Wright (19:46):
Yeah.
No, that's right.
You know, um, you know, one ofthe things that I sort of keep
in my back pocket um sayings is,you know, the closer you walk
to Jesus, the more you willdistance yourself from
smallness, separation, andsuperiority.
Right.
And so what I what I think oneof the things I think we resist
uh when it comes to relationshipwith Jesus and life for Jesus
(20:10):
is the the the intimacy that heis inviting us into with all
kinds of people, right?
So we we need to, in oursmallness and in our desires for
separation and superior, weneed to keep a certain distance,
right?
Uh we need to keep a certainover and againstness, right?
Because that that's familiarand we've been taught that and
(20:30):
seem the the world seems tocherish that.
But what Jesus does is he callsus into a deeper intimate
intimacy than I think a lot ofus are comfortable with, right?
You know this uh you know fromthe jails, you know, you're
you're you're called into spaceswhere you know your academic
credentials necessarily don'tmatter that much.
(20:51):
Um, you know, the wealth behindthose behind those gates don't
matter that much.
You know, all the all thethings that we've accumulated
and worked hard, they don'tmatter that much.
And what you're left with is isthat I'm your sibling and
you're my sibling, and we've gotthat gospel that we both take
up a share in.
And that's really kind of allyou got.
We're we're we're um uh for formany of us, we're uncomfortably
(21:14):
close in those moments.
The Rev. Dr. Jenny M. McBr (21:16):
Yes.
Yes.
Yeah, and I think that what alot of um, especially sort of
white American Christianity, um,maybe a lot in its evangelical
form, but I think in otherforms, we easily turn Jesus into
an idea instead of a person.
And if this is anotherBonhoeffer um sort of insight.
If and then, and as others havesaid this too, James Cohn, the
father of Black LiberationTheology, said this.
(21:37):
If if Jesus is just an idea inour bel in our belief system,
then we can make Jesus whateverwe want.
But if the call is to literallyfollow Jesus as closely as the
first disciples, then you can'tignore all these things in the
gospels.
Bishop Wright (21:52):
Uh not an idea, but a person.
I think the last thing I wantto say really is that I think
that's what we have to do now.
Um, because we were talkingabout Bonhoffer and what does he
mean to us now as we findourselves, you know, and so with
you know, Jesus was political.
He was not a partisan of anyshape or form.
(22:12):
Uh I like to say his politicswere not left to right, they
were uh horizontal uh andvertical, right?
Um so uh uh horizontal intoneighborliness and certainly
vertical into you know radicaldevotion uh to God.
Um, you know, but what werealize out in the world now is
that people want to make Jesussomething very different than
(22:35):
the Jesus of Matthew, Mark,Luke, and John.
Because the very differentJesus from, you know, uh, you
know, the a Jesus that is notsort of tethered to, embedded in
Matthew, Mark, Luke, and Johnends up being a great mascot for
lots of really kind ofgrotesque behaviors.
The Rev. Dr. Jenny M. McBr (22:53):
Yes.
And you know, I think the waywe've gotten there is um, you
know, it's not it's notnecessarily bad.
It's that a lot of Protestantdenominations begin reading Paul
and sort of focus on Paul andonly read Paul.
And if you do that, um, I'm notsaying that Paul is going
against the gospels by anymeans, but he uses the language
of the cross so much.
(23:13):
And I think really he means thecross and the resurrection tied
up together.
Um, but but really, and so thenwe start talking thinking about
salvation and and focusing onthe cross, but really what
Bonhoeffer does is um reallylearn from the early church
fathers that the whole Christevent is the importance, it's
the incarnation, crucifixion,and resurrection.
And so then you have to, ifyou're focused on the
(23:35):
incarnation, you have to befocused on the story and the
gospels and the teachings.
Bishop Wright (23:40):
Well, before we wrap up, I'm I'm wondering, you
know, you you are a uh uh apriest, an episcopal priest in
the church, uh married to afellow who's doing uh important
ministry.
Your your life together isabout formation, uh uh, you
know, and uh we can get swept upin these roles uh and this good
work.
And I'm wondering, but forJenny, just Jenny, you might
(24:04):
say, is is there a a gospelstory or a Bible verse right now
that's that's uh that's makingyou strong or that's blessing
you or challenging you?
The Rev. Dr. Jenny M. McBrid (24:14):
Uh yeah, I mean the first thing I
think about is um is actually isuh John 20.
Um it's the resurrectionnarrative in John, but it's
focused on Mary Magdalene.
And I'm thinking about that fortwo reasons.
One, because we just boughtthis gorgeous uh stations of the
resurrection by um a blackartist named Laura James,
(24:35):
Caribbean Heritage, who's gonnacome um be with us for MLK
Sunday.
So she has 10 prints that showthat that are focused on Mary
Magdalene in that text.
And it's it's you know, it'sthe call of um, it's the call of
um of of Mary, you know, to bethe one that that proclaims the
resurrection.
(24:55):
And when you said, you know,stripping, uh stripping me of um
sort of roles and positions,who's Jenny?
But the interesting thing forme is it's really probably made,
you know, one of the probablythe most important um fact of my
life is sort of is growing upin a denomination that didn't
ordain women and having um andand really having this very long
(25:19):
road to get to where I am as apriest and and going the
academic route because that waswhat was open for me, even
though I never felt a sense ofcalling.
But now living into that senseof calling as a priest um is uh
you know, it's it's I don't evenknow, it's it's uh like saying
it's transformative or it's tootoo small.
(25:41):
It's it's um it is who Jennyis, you know, not not the role
of the the priest, but just tobe able to live, to hear Jesus
say to me, as you said to MaryMagdalene, Jenny, you know, I'm
I'm commissioning you to go andtell your brothers, you know,
what what's happened.
And and to be able to do thatis what has helped me um come
(26:04):
alive, you know, in the waysthat I actually was alive as a
little girl before I realizedthat, you know, certain things
weren't available to me in thecontext that I was in.
So, and of course thinkingabout uh the new Archbishop of
Canterbury and still theimportance of female leadership
and and what it means uh to liveinto um my pastor, my sense of
pastoral authority as someonewho, as a woman who in the
(26:26):
society was kind of taught umself-doubt, even I think I
covered up, covered it up prettywell, but still deeply had it.
And so just to live in intothis um is extraordinary, you
know, and I'm just so gratefulto to be a part of this diocese,
to be at Alt Saints, to haveleadership like yours and um
like our presiding bishop.
(26:47):
So I'm just so grateful.
Bishop Wright (26:49):
Thank you for that.
I I really do appreciate that.
And thank you for uh puttingyour heart out there, saying a
little bit about your actual,you know, the contours of your
journey.
Um, you know, what's remarkableto me always is that when you
get past um, you know, our rolesand the accomplishments, et
cetera, as wonderful as they allare, um, you you find in some
(27:10):
form or fashion Jesus is stillsetting the captives free.
The Rev. Dr. Jenny M. McBr (27:13):
Yes.
Bishop Wright (27:14):
Friends, we've had the good fortune of being
with the Reverend Dr.
Jenny McBride today.
Jenny, thanks again.
The Rev. Dr. Jenny M. McB (27:20):
Thank you.
It's a great conversation.
Bishop Wright (27:23):
Absolutely.
God bless you.
So when we're actually doing
incarnational ministry, puttingour bodies in these places, we
see that we can't beself-righteous because we have a
lot to confess.
Um, I mean, your wordresponsibility is such an
important word for Bonhoeffer'stheology, too, that we take
responsibility for sin in theworld because that's what Jesus
did on the cross.
So it leads to a posture ofsort of continual repentance,
(00:24):
which, if you're really livingthat way, you're gonna become a
more humble person.
(00:46):
Good morning, I am Bishop Rob Wright and this if For People. Todaywe have a special guest, the
Reverend Dr.
Jenny McBride.
Jenny, good morning.
The Rev. Dr. Jenny M. McBr (00:51):
Good morning.
Bishop Wright (00:53):
Jenny attended uh the University of North
Carolina at Chapel Hill and hasan MA and a PhD in religious
studies from the University ofVirginia.
Uh, she is all abouttheological education and
formation and has served on thefaculty of Wartburg College in
rural Iowa and McCormickTheological Seminary in Chicago.
(01:14):
She's an author uh and uh thepresident of the International
Bonhoeffer Society.
Uh she's ordained as anEpiscopal priest and serves here
in the Episcopal Diocese ofAtlanta.
She's married to Thomas, andthey love hiking, biking, and
swimming.
Jenny, I'm so glad to have youuh on today.
(01:36):
And uh I want to get right toit.
Uh, you've done a lot of workin writing and thinking about
Dietrich Bonhoeffer.
Uh, and you're paying a lot ofattention to where we are uh in
uh in America, in the state ofGeorgia, and in the world.
What does Dietrich Bonhoefferhave to say to us now?
The Rev. Dr. Jenny M. McBr (01:55):
Yes.
Um, you know, Bonhoeffer isgetting a lot of attention in
this moment.
I think for good reason.
He was a 20th-century Germanpastor theologian, Nazi
resister.
He has, for someone who is aphilosophical theologian, he has
quite an interesting story.
What most people know about himis that he was part of a
(02:18):
conspiracy to assassinateHitler.
Um, but actually kind ofbeginning there or focusing on
that, I think can often uh leadto a lot of misuses of
Bonhoeffer and really kind ofpaint um a skewed picture.
He was actually had a verystrong peace ethic.
Uh, he wrote 10,000 pages oftheology.
He was useful, I think, mostlyas a theologian, even though he,
(02:43):
you know, found himself uh inthe midst of um this conspiracy
theory because he was connectedto a brother and brother-in-laws
who are part of the Abwehrmovement, the military
intelligence, one of the groupsthat was trying uh to do
something about Hitler.
But really, I think he's usefulto us as a theologian, first
and foremost.
Bishop Wright (03:03):
Yeah.
Say more about that.
So if he's a theologian, thatmeans he has some sort of sense
of the divine uh that is, youknow, has intrigued you at
least.
I mean, you you're a scholar.
There's uh, you know, millionsof people to study and how
they've tried to hold theirfaith in the in the times that
they that they lived.
Uh what's his appeal for you?
And then, you know, if youthink about uh the ways in which
(03:26):
he thought about God, um, whatsort of arrests you and grabs
you?
The Rev. Dr. Jenny M. McB (03:30):
Well, my background is that I grew up
conservative evangelical uh inthe Presbyterian Church of
America.
Um and I was religious studiesmajor as an undergrad.
I was kind of always atheologian, even as a very young
girl.
I sort of took what I waslearning and took it to the
logical.
And um, and I was alreadyasking a lot of questions about
(03:51):
sort of the theologicalframework that I had been given
as an evangelical.
I was um working at uh aministry.
They didn't really necessarilylike to call it a ministry, but
it was sort of an urban house ofhospitality in Washington, D.C.
And I can say more about that.
It's called the Southeast WhiteHouse.
And we were sitting around thekitchen table and read uh
Bonhoeffer's life together for,and that's the first time I
(04:14):
really encountered Bonhoeffer.
I love that I encountered himin the context of ministry, not
in the Ivory Tower, but then itled me to want to study
Bonhoeffer more.
But in those first moments, itwas really that he um he was
talking about Jesus, his all ofhis theology um uh is really
Christology, meaning the studyof who Jesus is.
(04:34):
As an evangelical, his focus onJesus made me feel comfortable
and it felt familiar.
But he was saying a lot ofthings in really fresh new ways
that I'd never heard before.
Bishop Wright (04:44):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Interesting.
So so uh so what was he sayingthat was so fresh?
The Rev. Dr. Jenny M. McB (04:51):
Well, it's in it's I've thought about
this in the context of nowbeing an Episcopalian, maybe
maybe, maybe it won't seem soradical, but um but well the f
one of the things he was sayingis that he had a real sense of
the this worldliness ofChristian faith.
So of course, God istranscendent.
(05:12):
Um of course he believes ineternal life, these sorts of
things.
But really, the whole point ofthe faith is not um, as it was
in my context growing up, allabout going to heaven or hell.
Um it was about um it was aboutthe kingdom of God coming to
earth, which is really what thesynoptic gospels are all about.
(05:33):
That piece.
And then also the faith isreally discipleship.
It's it's following Jesus in aconcrete, literal way, obeying
Jesus' commands and teachings.
Again, I hope that doesn'tsound that radical to uh
Episcopalians or the AnglicanCommunion, but I think for a lot
of our um denominations, uh itis a kind of different way of
(05:58):
thinking about the faith.
Bishop Wright (06:00):
No, absolutely.
I mean, you know, uh lots of uhuh faithful people sort of um
think of um service on earth asuh, you know, uh in a crass, you
know, crassly put uh a way tosort of buy your ticket and get
your ticket punched uh, youknow, to uh eternal life, right?
(06:22):
You know, a sort of a cruiseship uh in eternity where you
know streets are gold and allyour needs are met.
Yeah.
Um and so there every car everysort of denomination has its
version of that.
Uh but you know, the the folksthat always grab my attention
are the people who uh think ofthe world as a place where the
(06:43):
kingdom of God is alreadypresent and that adventure, uh
discipleship, adventure,following Jesus intimately, uh
resolutely, means being andseeing the kingdom here and now,
right?
Uh is have I got that right?
The Rev. Dr. Jenny M. McB (07:00):
Well, I think so.
I mean the way that the wayI've come to say it, and I'm my
work has been sort ofconstructive theology.
So it's not just saying, here'sBonhoeffer, this is what he
says, so therefore this is whatwe should think, but how can the
way he's thinking um help usthink in our own context?
So the way I've been um sayingit is that really the when we
(07:20):
when we obey Jesus' commands, wemake visible the kingdom of God
on earth.
Um and so so it really is umit's a I I love the word
participation.
I think it's like a reallybeautiful theological word that
we're participating in what inwhat God has already done
through Christ, and yet we areto participate, we are to
(07:42):
partner with God and God's workin this world.
Bishop Wright (08:08):
You said a dirty word there.
I don't know if you know it.
Uh you said a big dirty wordfor the modern mind, and that
that was uh obedience.
Yes.
Obedience.
And and funny enough, you know,I think it's right that you and
I met or at least got to got achance to know each other a
little bit, actually at in aprison.
The Rev. Dr. Jenny M. McBr (08:30):
Yes.
Bishop Wright (08:31):
Um we we weren't uh we we weren't inmates.
Uh we were we were there.
We were there, uh I think as anextension of trying to be
obedient.
Um we we were there to to bewith the incarcerated um because
you know in Matthew 25, we'retold that we ought to, that's
what followers do.
They they they visit theincarcerated.
(08:53):
There's a list of people weought to visit.
And the the Bible goes on tosay, when we visit those folks,
it is as if uh we are visitingthe Lord Himself.
Uh and so you you and I met atArendale prison uh and uh and
you know, there in terms of uhbeing alongside uh sisters, it's
(09:15):
a it's a uh a female prison.
Uh and uh hopefully uh sharingthe good news, uh, but also uh
you know, pointing to the goodnews that we saw, you know,
already there.
So so did you get to thatprison ministry uh out of
obedience?
And tell me just a little bitabout your life with prisons.
The Rev. Dr. Jenny M. McB (09:33):
Yeah, that's the way I talk about it,
certainly, is that it'sobedience to Jesus' command of
visit the prisoner.
But the the way it came about,interesting how things all
connect.
I was um after my PhD at UVA, Icame to Atlanta for the first
time to do a postdoc fellowshipat Emory.
And um, that was 2008, fall of2008.
Liz Bounds, who's an ethicistat Emory, um, was just starting
(09:57):
a pilot program uh inpartnership with our friend uh
Chaplins, who's a bishop.
And I got invited to just inthe pilot to just teach a class
session on Bonhoeff.
Um and it was my first time ina prison.
And um, that experience ofbeing in the classroom with
people who were so hospitable tome.
(10:19):
I you know, I rememberthinking, well, what am I
supposed to wear?
Like I knew the dress code, butare they gonna think I'm just
this like white girl, southern,you know, southern bell who
doesn't know what she's doing?
Um, and so I thought, andfinally I just realized I can
only be myself.
I can only wear the clothes Ihave in my closet.
So I went uh had this classroomexperience, you know, in the
(10:40):
middle of it, it was a break forbathroom, and I'm, you know,
everyone's lining up in the inthe quote inmate bathroom line.
And then there's anotherbathroom, I can't remember what
it was called, but it's forguests, I guess.
And I stood in the line withthe women uh and talked to them,
and and there was a couple ofthings that happened.
One was that that they all werelike, oh, I love your boots and
(11:03):
I love your shirt.
And you know, we connected overour love for fashion, which was
fun.
Um, and they also kind ofnoticed that I I stayed in line
with them and was sort of wasn'tgoing to the other bathroom but
was hanging out with them.
And I think I was told I had touse the other restroom, not
their restroom.
So I finally did.
Um, but that one class period,um, you know, the the rawness of
(11:28):
the conversation, the thedesire to really grapple with
these uh questions of faith, youknow, all we did was bring in
some theological texts and thenthe conversations that arose.
So for me, I think of it reallyin terms of like um mutual
friendship and thetransformation that can only
happen through an action throughtruly true mutuality.
(11:49):
Um, and that happened because Ihad no idea what I was doing
inside that space.
So they had to be my guides,they had to be my teachers.
And in the classroom space, Ihad no idea how they would
receive the theology.
I didn't know anything abouttheir lives.
They're the experts on theirlives and they're the experts on
prisons because they livethere.
So um, so it was a genuine, youknow, it wasn't like, okay, I'm
(12:12):
I'm gonna act like this ismutual.
It genuinely was mutual.
Bishop Wright (12:16):
Yeah.
So so kingdom came near thatday, right?
And uh, and and what I loveabout kingdom is kingdom is
always so tricky.
You know, we who uh walkthrough the gates to go and to
be with out of obedience, Ibelieve as we should, uh, might
go harboring ideas that thatwe're going to be the givers.
And then surprise, surprise,kingdom is always tricky.
(12:40):
And so even as you give, I cantell you, I've walked out of
many a jail uh and federalprison, knowing uh that uh that
I have received the lion's shareof the blessing that day,
hoping that I was of somebenefit to somebody, but knowing
as I got in my car and wentback to my life, that I had
received such a benefit uh frompeople's experience of God, from
(13:05):
their warmth to me, theirwelcome to me, um, from allowing
me uh to actually experiencewhat Jesus wanted us to
experience, which is come andknow me uh, you know, through my
words and through the placesthat I want you to go.
That's how you really get toknow me.
The Rev. Dr. Jenny M. McBride (13:24):
I mean, another, you know, it
reminds me of another part ofBonhoeffer that I love so much
in discipleships, often uhentitled Cost of Discipleship.
He talks about um that we haveto get into a new situation
where we can learn to believe.
And so belief is not just this,it doesn't come from like
abstract, disembodiedintellectual thinking.
It comes from the actualpractice of trusting Jesus and
(13:47):
literally following him into theplaces where he leads.
Bishop Wright (13:50):
I'm listening to you and I'm thinking about so I
have annual council coming up,which is our big annual event
where we have uh, you know,representatives from all of our
congregations, et cetera.
And and the text I'm thinkingabout is uh and and writing on
already is Luke 10, where whereJesus sends uh he appoints 70
(14:12):
and and sends them to all thetowns, uh two by two, and all
the towns it says um, you know,where Jesus himself intended to
go.
And so, you know, but butthere's that word sent, right?
Uh, and and you know, I I thinkwe we have to use that word
more, um, is that we go not outof our own authority, we go not
(14:35):
even out of our own goodness ifwe have any goodness at all, but
we we go because we've beencommissioned to go, right, to
reveal, right, that that thingthat Jesus wants revealed in the
places that Jesus wants it uhyou know revealed.
And so when I hear you talkabout uh your experience uh you
know in the prisons and with thewith the folks there, um you
(14:57):
know, there there is a uh arevelation of of the Lord that
can only be experienced uh ifyou walk in sentness.
Yes.
If that makes any sense.
The Rev. Dr. Jenny M. McB (15:06):
Yeah, and it it actually reminds me
of another um important passagefor me from Bonhoeffer.
Um it's in his letters andpapers from prison.
He taught he says, What does itmean for the church to be
called out, but not seen, notseeing itself as religiously
privileged, but belonging whollyto the world?
Bishop Wright (15:25):
Whoa, whoa, hold on, hold on.
That's good.
That's good.
You gotta you gotta do that onemore time.
Do it slow.
That's good.
The Rev. Dr. Jenny M. McBr (15:31):
This is a paraphrase with a few
quotes in it.
Yeah.
I'm getting it right.
Um, what does it mean to be thechurch, the ecclesia, as people
who are called out, but notseeing ourselves as religiously
privileged, but rather asbelonging wholly to the world.
So I, you know, a lot of reallybecause I grew up evangelical,
(15:52):
a lot of and all my academicwork came out of these
existential real questions Ihad, you know, the idea of
witness and of being sent and umwas was so important and it
still is to me.
But I think a lot of what wesee um, you know, in where we
are now with sort of the rise ofChristian nationalism and um
just and even even before thatis a sense that so many of our
(16:16):
churches and denominations havea sense that we are religiously
privileged, yeah, we have thetruth, that we have morality.
And I'm not saying we we, youknow, certainly, well, I'll just
say this that this idea that wewe have these things, um, and
instead of seeing that the truthis Jesus, a person, and that we
are witnesses and that theBible is a witness, um, we think
(16:39):
that we kind of possess thesethings.
And that whole way of being isum leads to a lot of uh
anti-gospel, really.
Bishop Wright (16:48):
Yeah, you know, what it what it you're you're
nicer than I am, what it leads,I think, to is a counterfeit
gospel.
And it it it um, you know, inthe worst case uh uh uh you know
sort of situation, it it leadsto a religious deceitfulness,
right?
Which is which is to to sort ofmobilize people, you know,
(17:08):
based on falsehood.
I mean, and we see we see thatuh in what I call today the
pyrotechnic power hungry gospel,right?
So so to say that I'm notreligiously privileged because
uh because I have been swept upin the life of Christ, but to
say that that means that Ibelong to the whole as Christ
himself belonged to the wholeflips the paradigm on its head.
(17:32):
You know, Walter Brugermantalked about chosenness, not not
as um you know, not asentitlement, but as
responsibility, right?
And as to be a steward of, youknow, if there's any uniqueness
in it, it is to be the stewardof something, you know, holy and
glorious that gets poured outfor the world, and particularly
(17:55):
in what I like to call thefingernail dirty places of the
world.
The Rev. Dr. Jenny M. McB (17:59):
Yeah, and I mean I think it leads to
a deep self-righteousness and aposture of judging others.
And um, and I mean that getsback to the going into the
prison, the the the if it'sabout the not the belief in
Jesus, but the following ofJesus, the practices, then when
you actually put yourself incomplex spaces like the prison,
(18:22):
I mean, all of our life is iscomplex, every ethical issue is
incredibly complex.
But when you put yourselfthere, you suddenly realize, oh,
I can't really be like morallypure.
I'm not, I don't, you know, I'mI'm getting myself dirty in
some way.
Because, for example, you know,um you well, actually Thomas
(18:43):
talks about this quite a lotbecause in my husband, because
in his work, he was running ahigher ed imprison program for a
long time where he was insidethe prison to the a volunteer,
but to the point that he hadkeys.
He talks about the experienceof walking alongside some
people, and then you get to agate and you have to close the
gate and you have to lock it,even if they ask, Well, can I
come through?
(19:03):
Really?
I just need to cut through.
And he says no.
And in that sense, he's thenkind of on the side of the
officers, not really where hewants to be.
And so, so what it so whenwe're actually uh doing
incarnational ministry, puttingour bodies in these places, we
see um we see that we can't beself-righteous because we have a
(19:23):
lot to confess.
And we're can we're um, I mean,your line, your word
responsibility is such animportant word for Bonhoeffer's
theology, too, that we takeresponsibility for sin in the
world because that's what Jesusdid on the cross.
And so um, so it it leads to aposture of sort of continual
repentance, which if you'rereally living that way, you're
(19:44):
gonna become a more humbleperson.
Bishop Wright (19:46):
Yeah.
No, that's right.
You know, um, you know, one ofthe things that I sort of keep
in my back pocket um sayings is,you know, the closer you walk
to Jesus, the more you willdistance yourself from
smallness, separation, andsuperiority.
Right.
And so what I what I think oneof the things I think we resist
uh when it comes to relationshipwith Jesus and life for Jesus
(20:10):
is the the the intimacy that heis inviting us into with all
kinds of people, right?
So we we need to, in oursmallness and in our desires for
separation and superior, weneed to keep a certain distance,
right?
Uh we need to keep a certainover and againstness, right?
Because that that's familiarand we've been taught that and
(20:30):
seem the the world seems tocherish that.
But what Jesus does is he callsus into a deeper intimate
intimacy than I think a lot ofus are comfortable with, right?
You know this uh you know fromthe jails, you know, you're
you're you're called into spaceswhere you know your academic
credentials necessarily don'tmatter that much.
(20:51):
Um, you know, the wealth behindthose behind those gates don't
matter that much.
You know, all the all thethings that we've accumulated
and worked hard, they don'tmatter that much.
And what you're left with is isthat I'm your sibling and
you're my sibling, and we've gotthat gospel that we both take
up a share in.
And that's really kind of allyou got.
We're we're we're um uh for formany of us, we're uncomfortably
(21:14):
close in those moments.
The Rev. Dr. Jenny M. McBr (21:16):
Yes.
Yes.
Yeah, and I think that what alot of um, especially sort of
white American Christianity, um,maybe a lot in its evangelical
form, but I think in otherforms, we easily turn Jesus into
an idea instead of a person.
And if this is anotherBonhoeffer um sort of insight.
If and then, and as others havesaid this too, James Cohn, the
father of Black LiberationTheology, said this.
(21:37):
If if Jesus is just an idea inour bel in our belief system,
then we can make Jesus whateverwe want.
But if the call is to literallyfollow Jesus as closely as the
first disciples, then you can'tignore all these things in the
gospels.
Bishop Wright (21:52):
Uh not an idea, but a person.
I think the last thing I wantto say really is that I think
that's what we have to do now.
Um, because we were talkingabout Bonhoffer and what does he
mean to us now as we findourselves, you know, and so with
you know, Jesus was political.
He was not a partisan of anyshape or form.
(22:12):
Uh I like to say his politicswere not left to right, they
were uh horizontal uh andvertical, right?
Um so uh uh horizontal intoneighborliness and certainly
vertical into you know radicaldevotion uh to God.
Um, you know, but what werealize out in the world now is
that people want to make Jesussomething very different than
(22:35):
the Jesus of Matthew, Mark,Luke, and John.
Because the very differentJesus from, you know, uh, you
know, the a Jesus that is notsort of tethered to, embedded in
Matthew, Mark, Luke, and Johnends up being a great mascot for
lots of really kind ofgrotesque behaviors.
The Rev. Dr. Jenny M. McBr (22:53):
Yes.
And you know, I think the waywe've gotten there is um, you
know, it's not it's notnecessarily bad.
It's that a lot of Protestantdenominations begin reading Paul
and sort of focus on Paul andonly read Paul.
And if you do that, um, I'm notsaying that Paul is going
against the gospels by anymeans, but he uses the language
of the cross so much.
(23:13):
And I think really he means thecross and the resurrection tied
up together.
Um, but but really, and so thenwe start talking thinking about
salvation and and focusing onthe cross, but really what
Bonhoeffer does is um reallylearn from the early church
fathers that the whole Christevent is the importance, it's
the incarnation, crucifixion,and resurrection.
And so then you have to, ifyou're focused on the
(23:35):
incarnation, you have to befocused on the story and the
gospels and the teachings.
Bishop Wright (23:40):
Well, before we wrap up, I'm I'm wondering, you
know, you you are a uh uh apriest, an episcopal priest in
the church, uh married to afellow who's doing uh important
ministry.
Your your life together isabout formation, uh uh, you
know, and uh we can get swept upin these roles uh and this good
work.
And I'm wondering, but forJenny, just Jenny, you might
(24:04):
say, is is there a a gospelstory or a Bible verse right now
that's that's uh that's makingyou strong or that's blessing
you or challenging you?
The Rev. Dr. Jenny M. McBrid (24:14):
Uh yeah, I mean the first thing I
think about is um is actually isuh John 20.
Um it's the resurrectionnarrative in John, but it's
focused on Mary Magdalene.
And I'm thinking about that fortwo reasons.
One, because we just boughtthis gorgeous uh stations of the
resurrection by um a blackartist named Laura James,
(24:35):
Caribbean Heritage, who's gonnacome um be with us for MLK
Sunday.
So she has 10 prints that showthat that are focused on Mary
Magdalene in that text.
And it's it's you know, it'sthe call of um, it's the call of
um of of Mary, you know, to bethe one that that proclaims the
resurrection.
(24:55):
And when you said, you know,stripping, uh stripping me of um
sort of roles and positions,who's Jenny?
But the interesting thing forme is it's really probably made,
you know, one of the probablythe most important um fact of my
life is sort of is growing upin a denomination that didn't
ordain women and having um andand really having this very long
(25:19):
road to get to where I am as apriest and and going the
academic route because that waswhat was open for me, even
though I never felt a sense ofcalling.
But now living into that senseof calling as a priest um is uh
you know, it's it's I don't evenknow, it's it's uh like saying
it's transformative or it's tootoo small.
(25:41):
It's it's um it is who Jennyis, you know, not not the role
of the the priest, but just tobe able to live, to hear Jesus
say to me, as you said to MaryMagdalene, Jenny, you know, I'm
I'm commissioning you to go andtell your brothers, you know,
what what's happened.
And and to be able to do thatis what has helped me um come
(26:04):
alive, you know, in the waysthat I actually was alive as a
little girl before I realizedthat, you know, certain things
weren't available to me in thecontext that I was in.
So, and of course thinkingabout uh the new Archbishop of
Canterbury and still theimportance of female leadership
and and what it means uh to liveinto um my pastor, my sense of
pastoral authority as someonewho, as a woman who in the
(26:26):
society was kind of taught umself-doubt, even I think I
covered up, covered it up prettywell, but still deeply had it.
And so just to live in intothis um is extraordinary, you
know, and I'm just so gratefulto to be a part of this diocese,
to be at Alt Saints, to haveleadership like yours and um
like our presiding bishop.
(26:47):
So I'm just so grateful.
Bishop Wright (26:49):
Thank you for that.
I I really do appreciate that.
And thank you for uh puttingyour heart out there, saying a
little bit about your actual,you know, the contours of your
journey.
Um, you know, what's remarkableto me always is that when you
get past um, you know, our rolesand the accomplishments, et
cetera, as wonderful as they allare, um, you you find in some
(27:10):
form or fashion Jesus is stillsetting the captives free.
The Rev. Dr. Jenny M. McBr (27:13):
Yes.
Bishop Wright (27:14):
Friends, we've had the good fortune of being
with the Reverend Dr.
Jenny McBride today.
Jenny, thanks again.
The Rev. Dr. Jenny M. McB (27:20):
Thank you.
It's a great conversation.
Bishop Wright (27:23):
Absolutely.
God bless you.
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