August 1, 2025 • 25 mins
The concept of dignity—the unwavering worth within each human being—lies at the heart of our religious traditions, political systems, and human interactions. But what does it mean to respect someone's dignity, especially when society has trained us to look away?
In this episode, Melissa has a conversation with Dr. Beth Sarah Wright, author of "DIGNITY: Seven Strategies for Creating Authentic Community", centered on James 3:18. They discuss human dignity and how genuine community emerges when we honor each person's inherent value.
"Dignity isn't a moral imperative, nor is it a political imperative—it really is a human imperative," Dr. Wright explains. She unpacks how respect etymologically means "to look again," challenging us to see beyond our initial judgments to recognize the full humanity in others. Listen in for the full conversation.
Read For Faith, the companion devotional.
Dr. Beth-Sarah Wright is an Atlanta-based author, dynamic speaker, and strategic thought partner who inspires and drives transformation in communities, institutions, and individual lives—all while centering human dignity.
As Co-Founder and Executive Director of Thrive With Dignity, LLC, Dr. Wright partners with organizations to build authentic, thriving communities. She works with a wide range of institutions—schools and universities, corporations, nonprofits, and faith communities—using her signature DIGNITY Lens©. This powerful framework, grounded in seven strategic pillars, helps organizations interrogate their practices, align with their core values, and embed human dignity into the very structures that shape daily life. More than a framework, the DIGNITY Lens© is both a leadership tool and an integrity compass—empowering communities to increase capacity, make meaningful progress, and change outcomes in sustainable ways.
She is the author of seven influential books, covering topics from organizational integrity and adaptive leadership to depression, healing, and spiritual growth. Her book DIGNITY: Seven Strategies for Creating Authentic Community (2020), selected as the 2023 featured book of the year by the National Association of Episcopal Schools (NAES), along with its companion The DIGNITY Lens Workbook, offers a practical and transformative approach to leadership, strategic decision-making, and creative problem-solving. These resources have been used across sectors to conduct integrity audits and enhance alignment with mission and purpose.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Beth-Sarah Wright (00:00):
Dignity is a part of nearly every major
religion.
They have different names forthis thing that refers to the
breath of God inside of you.
There are many other ways thatwe talk about dignity and we
talk about it outside of faith,as the inherent worth and value
(00:25):
that you have inside of you andthat is what makes you human.
Melissa (00:40):
Welcome to For People with Bishop Rob Wright.
I'm Melissa Rau, and this is aconversation inspired by For
Faith, a weekly devotion sentout every Friday.
You can find a link to thisweek's For Faith and a link to
subscribe in the episode'sdescription.
And today we have our final,very special guest.
We have not just a wife of avery prominent bishop who we
(01:04):
know and love.
She's not just a mother of fiveyoung adult children, but she
is a leader unto herself, anauthor of a number of books, but
especially my favorite one,DIGNITY: Seven Strategies for
Creating Authentic Community.
She is the co-founder of Thrivewith Dignity, a consulting firm
(01:26):
that helps organizations withorganizational integrity, and
she's also been named as theActing Executive Director of the
Absalom Jones Episcopal Centerfor Racial Healing.
Dr Beth Sarah Wright, welcome.
Dr. Beth-Sarah Wright (01:43):
Good morning and thank you.
What a joy to be here with you,thank you.
Melissa (01:49):
You based your devotion this week off of James, chapter
3, verse 18, inspired by theMessage.
It says and the fruit ofrighteousness is sown in peace
by those who make peace.
I would encourage folks to lookat the episode description to
(02:10):
see the full devotion.
But really this is abouthonoring one another, living
with dignity and honor, treatingone another with respect, and
so this is kind of like your jam, correct, dr Becerra?
Dr. Beth-Sarah Wright (02:24):
Yes, it is.
It's when I first read thispassage in the message
translation and it really doesreveal and open up this idea of
how to create community it does,and what community it does and
what the type of community is.
(02:46):
It's a community that's alignedwith God, and the results of
creating such a community itsays you can enjoy its results.
There's joy that comes fromcreating this type of community,
but James talks about how wecreate this community.
(03:08):
When I first saw this, Iremember I was driving with my
husband and we were reading theBible and I came across this
scripture and I was just likethat's it.
That has opened up everyconversation I've ever thought
about in terms of creatingcommunity.
(03:30):
What does that mean?
How to do it?
And that dignity human dignityis at the center.
Melissa (03:37):
Yeah, so could you summarize then in your own words
what dignity actually is, inyour own words, what dignity
actually is?
Dr. Beth-Sarah Wright (03:45):
So what I love about the term dignity is
that, yes, people might thinkone that it is morally or
religiously inspired Dignitybeing the breath of God inside
of you.
People from a faith backgroundand you will find that dignity
(04:08):
is a part of nearly every majorreligion.
They have different names forthis thing that refers to the
breath of God inside of you.
So, from a religiousperspective or a faith
perspective, it is that that youare a child of God.
(04:29):
There's something inside youthat is divine, there's a piece
of the divine inside of you andthat is unwavering.
But that is only from areligious perspective.
There are many other ways thatwe talk about dignity and we
talk about it outside of faith,as the inherent worth and value
(04:51):
that you have inside of you, andthat is what makes you human
and what makes us all human.
And so, for example, the UnitedNations has dignity as part of
their tagline.
Nations has dignity as part oftheir tagline.
We talk about that dignity wetalk about as a human right.
(05:12):
We have this thing, and so it'sabsolutely core to all of what
we talk about.
And then dignity is part of thefounding documents of this
country.
So, in terms of a politicalentity we talk about this, that
(05:33):
we all have this endowed.
We're all created with thisendowed right.
We have this thing, all of usall citizens.
We have this thing, all of usall citizens.
And so what I love aboutdignity is that it is.
It goes across all of these.
It's not a moral imperative,nor is it a political imperative
(05:55):
.
It really is a human imperativefor us to think about dignity.
Melissa (05:58):
Yeah, I'm also struck by you know folks' notion.
You know, sometimes we have aproblem believing our own worth.
That's a big problem, and yetwe then also put down or
diminish the dignity of otherpeople.
And what I like about thispassage is that it reminds me
(06:18):
it's almost like you get whatyou put in.
You know you reap what you sow.
You get what you put in, youknow you reap what you sow.
And so if you want to betreated with dignity and respect
, then maybe there's a bit of aresponsibility for us to be able
to do that with and for others.
Dr. Beth-Sarah Wright (06:37):
I do believe that we all are to be
treated with respect, no matterwhat we do.
However, the baptismal covenant, the Episcopal baptismal
covenant, really helped tonuance this idea of dignity and
(06:58):
being able to see and recognizethat dignity just as you've
described.
Recognize that dignity just asyou've described.
The last question of thebaptismal covenant asks us to
(07:26):
strive for peace and justice andrespect the dignity of every
human being.
And respect the dignity ofevery human being, not respect
the dignity of those people youagree with or who look like you
or who worship like you, or whoyou like or who you know.
It's asking something else, butit also asks us to respect
their dignity, not tolerate, noteven love the word love is not
in there.
So it's not to love theirdignity, it's to respect their
dignity, and so I was wonderingwhat the heck does this mean?
(07:49):
What is it asking us to do?
And when I looked at theetymology of the word now, I'm
just like well, what is reallybeing asked of us?
Respect their dignity.
It's very simple To look again,Re again and spaghetta, just
like spectacles.
To look.
It's a way of how we see oneanother.
(08:11):
Can we see beyond what we thinkwe see to see something else?
Melissa (08:16):
And Jesus did that so well, right?
Dr. Beth-Sarah Wright (08:21):
That's what is so powerful about all of
this and the best I mean.
Jesus did that all the time.
Look at all the people that hewalked with and worked with.
And even when asking, gatheringhis disciples, he just said
come and follow me.
He didn't say let me check yourresume, let me check what
(08:41):
you've done, let me see who youare, let me see what you know
all of this.
No, it was just come and followme, let me check what you've
done, let me see who you are,let me see what you know all of
this.
No, it was just come and followme.
And the most poignant story Ilove about Jesus and dignity and
respecting dignity is him withthe Samaritan woman by the well.
Melissa (09:01):
Oh my gosh, I was just thinking about this story in my
head.
I'm so glad you're bringingthis up.
I would love to hear your takelet's go, come on.
Dr. Beth-Sarah Wright (09:09):
I mean, here we have Jesus.
First of all, this is thelongest conversation that he has
with anyone in the Bible,anyone.
And of all the people that hehas this conversation with, it's
a woman that wasn't reallyallowed and a Samaritan woman.
There were such divisionbetween Samaritans and Jews.
(09:34):
There was such division, suchhatred.
Even you were not supposed tohave any sort of relationship.
And yet, here at the well, hesimply says he asks her for some
water, can you bring me somewater?
And she is like for some water,can you bring me some water?
(09:55):
And she is like why are youeven talking to me?
She couldn't even understand it.
But then he said if you onlyknew God and the gift of God and
you knew who you were speakingto, you would be asking me for
living water is what he says.
(10:16):
But what I love about that isthat he to use the word respect
to look again.
He may have indeed saw her as awoman, as a Samaritan woman,
but did not stop there.
He looked again to see all ofwhat, and because Jesus is Jesus
, could see all of her story.
And because Jesus is Jesus,could see all of her story, all
of her story, all of hermarriages, all of it, and none
(10:43):
of that stopped him from havingthis relationship with her.
Melissa (11:07):
She's at the well with nobody else.
So she's in shame.
She's feeling shame, that's atleast how I'm interpreting it.
She's in shame, she's feelingshame, that's at least how I'm
interpreting it.
And that there is somethingabout Jesus that he looks, and
he doesn't even have to lookagain.
He doesn't look away, hedoesn't get disgusted, he
doesn't.
He penetrates her all of thewalls that she's had to rectify
(11:34):
in her own shame because she'sbelieved the messages of society
.
So she feels like an outcastand she thinks she deserves it
because she doesn't have dignity, which is not true, right.
So like we all have it, we justforget it.
Dr. Beth-Sarah Wright (11:51):
They have this conversation and she
reveals that she is not married,but she's been married five
times before.
We don't know the circumstancesof her marriages, whether or
not they've been divorced ordeath.
We don't know anything.
But Jesus does and she does.
But what you're saying isabsolutely right.
(12:12):
She may not have even seen herown dignity.
She has it, but she may nothave seen it, or it may have
been diminished or unseen bythose around her because of her
multiple marriages, because ofher background and all of this.
They just, you know, writingher off.
So I do, I absolutely.
(12:33):
And what I love about what yousaid is that he does not even
look away.
He doesn't even have to lookagain.
He does not look away.
But how often do we do thattoday?
How often do we do that?
How often do we not look away?
How often do we?
Even if we do look away, how dowe come back and look again to
(12:54):
see more than what we think wesaw?
Melissa (12:57):
So can you talk a little bit about Thrive with
Dignity?
Dr. Beth-Sarah Wright (13:01):
As a part of a community.
I was the director ofenrollment management at Holy
Innocence Episcopal School inAtlanta for 10 years and as part
of the leadership team, I did alot of looking and thinking
about our community.
In many ways, I was telling thestory of our school with
(13:22):
prospective families andstudents and had to be able to
tell the story of the schoolwith full integrity, as in what
we were doing and said we weredoing, we were actually doing so
where our mission and ourpractices aligned.
And oftentimes, when it comesto institutions of all types or
(13:45):
communities of all types whetherthey be corporate, large
corporations, small communities,small groups, small churches,
schools there is often a mission, yes, there is an aspirational
identity and then there is theexecution of that and sometimes
there's a gap.
Melissa (14:03):
I was just thinking, mind the gap.
Dr. Beth-Sarah Wright (14:06):
Sometimes there's a gap.
Melissa (14:07):
So how do you do that work then?
So, really, you're talkingabout dignity, you're talking
about missional integrity.
How do we do that active workin community with one another?
Dr. Beth-Sarah Wright (14:20):
Well, James was really instructive and
said that the only way that wecan do this is by the hard work
of treating one another withdignity.
The hard work what does thatmean in community?
What does that mean when itcomes to our budgets?
What does that mean when itcomes to policies and laws and
bylaws and rules and regulationsin our communities?
(14:41):
It means that we, no matterwhat, they're made up of people.
They're affecting people,they're serving people.
They're people who are serving.
We are made up of people, sowhy don't we put human dignity
(15:03):
at the center?
And how do we honor that?
And that's what I feel James'sinvitation is.
And so I thought, well, theremust be a practical way to this.
How do we actually do thispractically?
And hence I created somethingcalled a dignity lens, a way in
which we can look again throughpractical means to narrow the
(15:25):
gap between what we say and whatwe do and those.
When we begin to narrow the gaplike that, do you know what that
is?
That is the hardest work of all, because they're going to be
tied up with people's loyalties,people's understandings,
(15:46):
people's views, their own biaseswe all have them.
By the way, it's perfectlyhuman to have biases when the
biases stop us from work, that'sa problem.
So when we start to close thegap, there are lots of
resistance that might happen.
Oh, I don't want change.
(16:07):
I'm comfortable where I am.
This has nothing to do with me.
Why are we doing this work?
I don't understand why we needto do this work, and so there's
a lot of resistance that happensthere.
But how do we manage theresistance?
How do we manage the change?
How do we build capacity in ourcommunity to manage this change
?
Build capacity in our community.
(16:31):
We have to build, increasehuman capacity, capacity for
curiosity, capacity for courage,capacity for competence.
There's so much, there's somuch, so much, there's so much.
But with these seven strategies, if used appropriately, if used
(16:51):
engaging them all, we can dothis work appropriately if used
engaging them all, we can dothis work.
Melissa (17:02):
You know, I'm curious if you might have a story, you
know a short story of how you'veseen a community do this,
really lean into the messy workand where they were and where
they are now as a result ofhaving done it.
Dr. Beth-Sarah Wright (17:12):
So when I wrote the book, I wrote a story
and I used a story from whichwe could look at all sorts of
different perspectives andengage with these seven
strategies through this story.
It was a fictional story but itwas inspired by a real story
and I can share that story.
(17:32):
That story happened at theschool that I was working at,
holy Innocence Episcopal School,and there was a beautiful
chapel service that we had and,as you might understand about
Episcopal schools, we areChristian communities that serve
families, students, faculty andstaff of all different
(17:55):
backgrounds faith backgrounds orno faith background.
It's a very unique.
We are not Episcopal churches.
That's a very different mission.
We are an Episcopal school.
That's a Christian community,yes, that serves community, that
is created and made up of alldifferent backgrounds.
So we had a chapel service andin that chapel service, which is
(18:19):
perfectly aligned with themission of Episcopal schools, we
had readings from the Quran,from the Bible and from the
Torah Abrahamic faiths,perfectly in line.
But there was such a vitriolicresponse to the reading from the
Quran by a student who was anAlpha and Omega.
(18:45):
She had been there since shewas a kindergartner.
She was a senior that year, soexcited to share this beautiful
reading.
It was a beautiful reading fromthe Quran.
She read it in her mothertongue, farsi, and she read it
in English.
It was gorgeous.
The backlash was incrediblesurprising, but incredible, and
(19:08):
there were a lot ofmisunderstandings, lots of anger
questions why are we doing this?
How, why, what does this haveto do with us?
Are we trying to indoctrinateour students?
Are we trying to make themMuslim?
Are we?
There were just lots ofquestions.
(19:29):
Now, the questions may havecome from a very small group,
but they were small but loud,and so some people said oh,
what's happening to the school?
I just came here because wewere a Christian school and why
are we having readings from theQuran?
And what we did as a school wasto remind people of who we are
(19:53):
as an Episcopal school andremind people of the mission
right Of our identity.
Melissa (19:59):
And so really to drill down, is people felt threatened,
and so where does dignity alignwith feeling the threat?
Like where, how did?
Dr. Beth-Sarah Wright (20:22):
Yes, we try to diminish or not see what
we saw was something else whichwas limiting and unfair, and we
do this on a regular basis, ifyou think about it.
We do this.
We do this as people, humanbeings.
(20:44):
We write off people quiteeasily because they've hurt us.
How hard is it to see thedignity in someone who's hurt us
or a family member?
Very difficult.
and I'm curious, Beth, Sarah,if you could just share with us
(21:06):
Beth- was the hope, Rather thangoing through the steps of how
they did it?
How was that transformation?
What was the end result ofdoing the dignity work that you
suggest folks might lean into?
Well, the dignity work involves being
very clear about who you are,what your story is and how we
(21:28):
can honor all people,stakeholders.
And the dignity lens is writtento democratize this work.
So all people take up this work.
We all have the work to do tosay, wait a minute, what is my
role in this and how can I lookagain and and now.
(21:50):
That doesn't mean that happensovernight, but if we remind
ourselves, okay, okay.
Well, one human dignity is atthe center of this and our
identity is clear.
We need to learn how to grow.
What capacity do we need togrow?
What do we need to put in placeto nurture this?
How do we hold ourselvesaccountable to the things, the
(22:11):
words and language that we sayabout ourselves?
How are we communicating thatstory through transparency and
building trust?
How do we know what we want?
What do we want here?
What do we want?
Do we want an environment inwhich all of our students are
not seen in the way that theyshould be?
Is that what we want?
(22:33):
What is our yield?
And that's the why.
But who do we have around?
Who is helping us have theseconversations?
Who is around the table?
So, this way of doing this, thehope is it takes hard work, but
it is holy work and it's workthat can be done.
Melissa (22:57):
So, in a brief nutshell then, how is dignity restored,
or at least reminded, amongstthat community?
Dr. Beth-Sarah Wright (23:04):
It's asking why do we do what we do?
It's the why.
It's the why, because our whyis not that we're just going to
serve some people and not others.
It's just that's not the why.
What is our why?
And where does human people,human beings and their dignity
(23:27):
come into that conversation?
Melissa (23:28):
So is there a happy ending for that student?
Dr. Beth-Sarah Wright (23:31):
Oh yes, Well, she was an amazing student
anyway.
She was remarkable.
Her family was even moreremarkable, but more than
anything, yes, she didn't haveto wait for anyone to restore
her dignity.
She restored her own dignity,with the support, certainly, of
(23:52):
her fellow students and facultyand friends and family and
school.
But the school itself restoredits dignity too, by realigning
and doing the hard work ofrealigning itself and making
sure that what they say and whatthey do align.
Now, some people might not likethat, and so some people say,
(24:15):
well, this is not where I wantto be.
And what do you say to thosepeople?
Melissa (24:19):
Then go find the place that you need to be.
Dr. Beth-Sarah Wright (24:22):
Exactly Because your dignity is
important and that your dignityneeds to be restored and honored
and upheld.
Restored and honored and upheld.
And if you are feeling thatyour dignity is being violated
by a community that is notaligned with your values, please
, please, find a community thatyou feel that your values will
(24:44):
be aligned.
Indeed.
Melissa (24:47):
Dr.
Beth- Sarah Wright.
Thank you so much for yourgreat work and thank you for
joining us on For People.
Friends, thank you for tuningin.
You can follow us on Instagramand Facebook at Bishop Rob
Wright, or by visiting www.
forpeople.
digital.
Please subscribe, leave areview, and we'll be back with
you next week.
Dignity is a part of nearly every major
religion.
They have different names forthis thing that refers to the
breath of God inside of you.
There are many other ways thatwe talk about dignity and we
talk about it outside of faith,as the inherent worth and value
(00:25):
that you have inside of you andthat is what makes you human.
Melissa (00:40):
Welcome to For People with Bishop Rob Wright.
I'm Melissa Rau, and this is aconversation inspired by For
Faith, a weekly devotion sentout every Friday.
You can find a link to thisweek's For Faith and a link to
subscribe in the episode'sdescription.
And today we have our final,very special guest.
We have not just a wife of avery prominent bishop who we
(01:04):
know and love.
She's not just a mother of fiveyoung adult children, but she
is a leader unto herself, anauthor of a number of books, but
especially my favorite one,DIGNITY: Seven Strategies for
Creating Authentic Community.
She is the co-founder of Thrivewith Dignity, a consulting firm
(01:26):
that helps organizations withorganizational integrity, and
she's also been named as theActing Executive Director of the
Absalom Jones Episcopal Centerfor Racial Healing.
Dr Beth Sarah Wright, welcome.
Dr. Beth-Sarah Wright (01:43):
Good morning and thank you.
What a joy to be here with you,thank you.
Melissa (01:49):
You based your devotion this week off of James, chapter
3, verse 18, inspired by theMessage.
It says and the fruit ofrighteousness is sown in peace
by those who make peace.
I would encourage folks to lookat the episode description to
(02:10):
see the full devotion.
But really this is abouthonoring one another, living
with dignity and honor, treatingone another with respect, and
so this is kind of like your jam, correct, dr Becerra?
Dr. Beth-Sarah Wright (02:24):
Yes, it is.
It's when I first read thispassage in the message
translation and it really doesreveal and open up this idea of
how to create community it does,and what community it does and
what the type of community is.
(02:46):
It's a community that's alignedwith God, and the results of
creating such a community itsays you can enjoy its results.
There's joy that comes fromcreating this type of community,
but James talks about how wecreate this community.
(03:08):
When I first saw this, Iremember I was driving with my
husband and we were reading theBible and I came across this
scripture and I was just likethat's it.
That has opened up everyconversation I've ever thought
about in terms of creatingcommunity.
(03:30):
What does that mean?
How to do it?
And that dignity human dignityis at the center.
Melissa (03:37):
Yeah, so could you summarize then in your own words
what dignity actually is, inyour own words, what dignity
actually is?
Dr. Beth-Sarah Wright (03:45):
So what I love about the term dignity is
that, yes, people might thinkone that it is morally or
religiously inspired Dignitybeing the breath of God inside
of you.
People from a faith backgroundand you will find that dignity
(04:08):
is a part of nearly every majorreligion.
They have different names forthis thing that refers to the
breath of God inside of you.
So, from a religiousperspective or a faith
perspective, it is that that youare a child of God.
(04:29):
There's something inside youthat is divine, there's a piece
of the divine inside of you andthat is unwavering.
But that is only from areligious perspective.
There are many other ways thatwe talk about dignity and we
talk about it outside of faith,as the inherent worth and value
(04:51):
that you have inside of you, andthat is what makes you human
and what makes us all human.
And so, for example, the UnitedNations has dignity as part of
their tagline.
Nations has dignity as part oftheir tagline.
We talk about that dignity wetalk about as a human right.
(05:12):
We have this thing, and so it'sabsolutely core to all of what
we talk about.
And then dignity is part of thefounding documents of this
country.
So, in terms of a politicalentity we talk about this, that
(05:33):
we all have this endowed.
We're all created with thisendowed right.
We have this thing, all of usall citizens.
We have this thing, all of usall citizens.
And so what I love aboutdignity is that it is.
It goes across all of these.
It's not a moral imperative,nor is it a political imperative
(05:55):
.
It really is a human imperativefor us to think about dignity.
Melissa (05:58):
Yeah, I'm also struck by you know folks' notion.
You know, sometimes we have aproblem believing our own worth.
That's a big problem, and yetwe then also put down or
diminish the dignity of otherpeople.
And what I like about thispassage is that it reminds me
(06:18):
it's almost like you get whatyou put in.
You know you reap what you sow.
You get what you put in, youknow you reap what you sow.
And so if you want to betreated with dignity and respect
, then maybe there's a bit of aresponsibility for us to be able
to do that with and for others.
Dr. Beth-Sarah Wright (06:37):
I do believe that we all are to be
treated with respect, no matterwhat we do.
However, the baptismal covenant, the Episcopal baptismal
covenant, really helped tonuance this idea of dignity and
(06:58):
being able to see and recognizethat dignity just as you've
described.
Recognize that dignity just asyou've described.
The last question of thebaptismal covenant asks us to
(07:26):
strive for peace and justice andrespect the dignity of every
human being.
And respect the dignity ofevery human being, not respect
the dignity of those people youagree with or who look like you
or who worship like you, or whoyou like or who you know.
It's asking something else, butit also asks us to respect
their dignity, not tolerate, noteven love the word love is not
in there.
So it's not to love theirdignity, it's to respect their
dignity, and so I was wonderingwhat the heck does this mean?
(07:49):
What is it asking us to do?
And when I looked at theetymology of the word now, I'm
just like well, what is reallybeing asked of us?
Respect their dignity.
It's very simple To look again,Re again and spaghetta, just
like spectacles.
To look.
It's a way of how we see oneanother.
(08:11):
Can we see beyond what we thinkwe see to see something else?
Melissa (08:16):
And Jesus did that so well, right?
Dr. Beth-Sarah Wright (08:21):
That's what is so powerful about all of
this and the best I mean.
Jesus did that all the time.
Look at all the people that hewalked with and worked with.
And even when asking, gatheringhis disciples, he just said
come and follow me.
He didn't say let me check yourresume, let me check what
(08:41):
you've done, let me see who youare, let me see what you know
all of this.
No, it was just come and followme, let me check what you've
done, let me see who you are,let me see what you know all of
this.
No, it was just come and followme.
And the most poignant story Ilove about Jesus and dignity and
respecting dignity is him withthe Samaritan woman by the well.
Melissa (09:01):
Oh my gosh, I was just thinking about this story in my
head.
I'm so glad you're bringingthis up.
I would love to hear your takelet's go, come on.
Dr. Beth-Sarah Wright (09:09):
I mean, here we have Jesus.
First of all, this is thelongest conversation that he has
with anyone in the Bible,anyone.
And of all the people that hehas this conversation with, it's
a woman that wasn't reallyallowed and a Samaritan woman.
There were such divisionbetween Samaritans and Jews.
(09:34):
There was such division, suchhatred.
Even you were not supposed tohave any sort of relationship.
And yet, here at the well, hesimply says he asks her for some
water, can you bring me somewater?
And she is like for some water,can you bring me some water?
(09:55):
And she is like why are youeven talking to me?
She couldn't even understand it.
But then he said if you onlyknew God and the gift of God and
you knew who you were speakingto, you would be asking me for
living water is what he says.
(10:16):
But what I love about that isthat he to use the word respect
to look again.
He may have indeed saw her as awoman, as a Samaritan woman,
but did not stop there.
He looked again to see all ofwhat, and because Jesus is Jesus
, could see all of her story.
And because Jesus is Jesus,could see all of her story, all
of her story, all of hermarriages, all of it, and none
(10:43):
of that stopped him from havingthis relationship with her.
Melissa (11:07):
She's at the well with nobody else.
So she's in shame.
She's feeling shame, that's atleast how I'm interpreting it.
She's in shame, she's feelingshame, that's at least how I'm
interpreting it.
And that there is somethingabout Jesus that he looks, and
he doesn't even have to lookagain.
He doesn't look away, hedoesn't get disgusted, he
doesn't.
He penetrates her all of thewalls that she's had to rectify
(11:34):
in her own shame because she'sbelieved the messages of society
.
So she feels like an outcastand she thinks she deserves it
because she doesn't have dignity, which is not true, right.
So like we all have it, we justforget it.
Dr. Beth-Sarah Wright (11:51):
They have this conversation and she
reveals that she is not married,but she's been married five
times before.
We don't know the circumstancesof her marriages, whether or
not they've been divorced ordeath.
We don't know anything.
But Jesus does and she does.
But what you're saying isabsolutely right.
(12:12):
She may not have even seen herown dignity.
She has it, but she may nothave seen it, or it may have
been diminished or unseen bythose around her because of her
multiple marriages, because ofher background and all of this.
They just, you know, writingher off.
So I do, I absolutely.
(12:33):
And what I love about what yousaid is that he does not even
look away.
He doesn't even have to lookagain.
He does not look away.
But how often do we do thattoday?
How often do we do that?
How often do we not look away?
How often do we?
Even if we do look away, how dowe come back and look again to
(12:54):
see more than what we think wesaw?
Melissa (12:57):
So can you talk a little bit about Thrive with
Dignity?
Dr. Beth-Sarah Wright (13:01):
As a part of a community.
I was the director ofenrollment management at Holy
Innocence Episcopal School inAtlanta for 10 years and as part
of the leadership team, I did alot of looking and thinking
about our community.
In many ways, I was telling thestory of our school with
(13:22):
prospective families andstudents and had to be able to
tell the story of the schoolwith full integrity, as in what
we were doing and said we weredoing, we were actually doing so
where our mission and ourpractices aligned.
And oftentimes, when it comesto institutions of all types or
(13:45):
communities of all types whetherthey be corporate, large
corporations, small communities,small groups, small churches,
schools there is often a mission, yes, there is an aspirational
identity and then there is theexecution of that and sometimes
there's a gap.
Melissa (14:03):
I was just thinking, mind the gap.
Dr. Beth-Sarah Wright (14:06):
Sometimes there's a gap.
Melissa (14:07):
So how do you do that work then?
So, really, you're talkingabout dignity, you're talking
about missional integrity.
How do we do that active workin community with one another?
Dr. Beth-Sarah Wright (14:20):
Well, James was really instructive and
said that the only way that wecan do this is by the hard work
of treating one another withdignity.
The hard work what does thatmean in community?
What does that mean when itcomes to our budgets?
What does that mean when itcomes to policies and laws and
bylaws and rules and regulationsin our communities?
(14:41):
It means that we, no matterwhat, they're made up of people.
They're affecting people,they're serving people.
They're people who are serving.
We are made up of people, sowhy don't we put human dignity
(15:03):
at the center?
And how do we honor that?
And that's what I feel James'sinvitation is.
And so I thought, well, theremust be a practical way to this.
How do we actually do thispractically?
And hence I created somethingcalled a dignity lens, a way in
which we can look again throughpractical means to narrow the
(15:25):
gap between what we say and whatwe do and those.
When we begin to narrow the gaplike that, do you know what that
is?
That is the hardest work of all, because they're going to be
tied up with people's loyalties,people's understandings,
(15:46):
people's views, their own biaseswe all have them.
By the way, it's perfectlyhuman to have biases when the
biases stop us from work, that'sa problem.
So when we start to close thegap, there are lots of
resistance that might happen.
Oh, I don't want change.
(16:07):
I'm comfortable where I am.
This has nothing to do with me.
Why are we doing this work?
I don't understand why we needto do this work, and so there's
a lot of resistance that happensthere.
But how do we manage theresistance?
How do we manage the change?
How do we build capacity in ourcommunity to manage this change
?
Build capacity in our community.
(16:31):
We have to build, increasehuman capacity, capacity for
curiosity, capacity for courage,capacity for competence.
There's so much, there's somuch, so much, there's so much.
But with these seven strategies, if used appropriately, if used
(16:51):
engaging them all, we can dothis work appropriately if used
engaging them all, we can dothis work.
Melissa (17:02):
You know, I'm curious if you might have a story, you
know a short story of how you'veseen a community do this,
really lean into the messy workand where they were and where
they are now as a result ofhaving done it.
Dr. Beth-Sarah Wright (17:12):
So when I wrote the book, I wrote a story
and I used a story from whichwe could look at all sorts of
different perspectives andengage with these seven
strategies through this story.
It was a fictional story but itwas inspired by a real story
and I can share that story.
(17:32):
That story happened at theschool that I was working at,
holy Innocence Episcopal School,and there was a beautiful
chapel service that we had and,as you might understand about
Episcopal schools, we areChristian communities that serve
families, students, faculty andstaff of all different
(17:55):
backgrounds faith backgrounds orno faith background.
It's a very unique.
We are not Episcopal churches.
That's a very different mission.
We are an Episcopal school.
That's a Christian community,yes, that serves community, that
is created and made up of alldifferent backgrounds.
So we had a chapel service andin that chapel service, which is
(18:19):
perfectly aligned with themission of Episcopal schools, we
had readings from the Quran,from the Bible and from the
Torah Abrahamic faiths,perfectly in line.
But there was such a vitriolicresponse to the reading from the
Quran by a student who was anAlpha and Omega.
(18:45):
She had been there since shewas a kindergartner.
She was a senior that year, soexcited to share this beautiful
reading.
It was a beautiful reading fromthe Quran.
She read it in her mothertongue, farsi, and she read it
in English.
It was gorgeous.
The backlash was incrediblesurprising, but incredible, and
(19:08):
there were a lot ofmisunderstandings, lots of anger
questions why are we doing this?
How, why, what does this haveto do with us?
Are we trying to indoctrinateour students?
Are we trying to make themMuslim?
Are we?
There were just lots ofquestions.
(19:29):
Now, the questions may havecome from a very small group,
but they were small but loud,and so some people said oh,
what's happening to the school?
I just came here because wewere a Christian school and why
are we having readings from theQuran?
And what we did as a school wasto remind people of who we are
(19:53):
as an Episcopal school andremind people of the mission
right Of our identity.
Melissa (19:59):
And so really to drill down, is people felt threatened,
and so where does dignity alignwith feeling the threat?
Like where, how did?
Dr. Beth-Sarah Wright (20:22):
Yes, we try to diminish or not see what
we saw was something else whichwas limiting and unfair, and we
do this on a regular basis, ifyou think about it.
We do this.
We do this as people, humanbeings.
(20:44):
We write off people quiteeasily because they've hurt us.
How hard is it to see thedignity in someone who's hurt us
or a family member?
Very difficult.
and I'm curious, Beth, Sarah,if you could just share with us
(21:06):
Beth- was the hope, Rather thangoing through the steps of how
they did it?
How was that transformation?
What was the end result ofdoing the dignity work that you
suggest folks might lean into?
Well, the dignity work involves being
very clear about who you are,what your story is and how we
(21:28):
can honor all people,stakeholders.
And the dignity lens is writtento democratize this work.
So all people take up this work.
We all have the work to do tosay, wait a minute, what is my
role in this and how can I lookagain and and now.
(21:50):
That doesn't mean that happensovernight, but if we remind
ourselves, okay, okay.
Well, one human dignity is atthe center of this and our
identity is clear.
We need to learn how to grow.
What capacity do we need togrow?
What do we need to put in placeto nurture this?
How do we hold ourselvesaccountable to the things, the
(22:11):
words and language that we sayabout ourselves?
How are we communicating thatstory through transparency and
building trust?
How do we know what we want?
What do we want here?
What do we want?
Do we want an environment inwhich all of our students are
not seen in the way that theyshould be?
Is that what we want?
(22:33):
What is our yield?
And that's the why.
But who do we have around?
Who is helping us have theseconversations?
Who is around the table?
So, this way of doing this, thehope is it takes hard work, but
it is holy work and it's workthat can be done.
Melissa (22:57):
So, in a brief nutshell then, how is dignity restored,
or at least reminded, amongstthat community?
Dr. Beth-Sarah Wright (23:04):
It's asking why do we do what we do?
It's the why.
It's the why, because our whyis not that we're just going to
serve some people and not others.
It's just that's not the why.
What is our why?
And where does human people,human beings and their dignity
(23:27):
come into that conversation?
Melissa (23:28):
So is there a happy ending for that student?
Dr. Beth-Sarah Wright (23:31):
Oh yes, Well, she was an amazing student
anyway.
She was remarkable.
Her family was even moreremarkable, but more than
anything, yes, she didn't haveto wait for anyone to restore
her dignity.
She restored her own dignity,with the support, certainly, of
(23:52):
her fellow students and facultyand friends and family and
school.
But the school itself restoredits dignity too, by realigning
and doing the hard work ofrealigning itself and making
sure that what they say and whatthey do align.
Now, some people might not likethat, and so some people say,
(24:15):
well, this is not where I wantto be.
And what do you say to thosepeople?
Melissa (24:19):
Then go find the place that you need to be.
Dr. Beth-Sarah Wright (24:22):
Exactly Because your dignity is
important and that your dignityneeds to be restored and honored
and upheld.
Restored and honored and upheld.
And if you are feeling thatyour dignity is being violated
by a community that is notaligned with your values, please
, please, find a community thatyou feel that your values will
(24:44):
be aligned.
Indeed.
Melissa (24:47):
Dr.
Beth- Sarah Wright.
Thank you so much for yourgreat work and thank you for
joining us on For People.
Friends, thank you for tuningin.
You can follow us on Instagramand Facebook at Bishop Rob
Wright, or by visiting www.
forpeople.
digital.
Please subscribe, leave areview, and we'll be back with
you next week.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
CrimeLess: Hillbilly Heist
It’s 1996 in rural North Carolina, and an oddball crew makes history when they pull off America’s third largest cash heist. But it’s all downhill from there. Join host Johnny Knoxville as he unspools a wild and woolly tale about a group of regular ‘ol folks who risked it all for a chance at a better life. CrimeLess: Hillbilly Heist answers the question: what would you do with 17.3 million dollars? The answer includes diamond rings, mansions, velvet Elvis paintings, plus a run for the border, murder-for-hire-plots, and FBI busts.