Episode Transcript
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Rep. Talarico (00:00):
In my view, this
has been a problem in our
religion since Constantine.
You know, 300 years after thatcarpenter was crucified by the
Roman Empire.
Powerful people, they try touse religion for the poor and
the oppressed for their ownpurposes.
Christian nationalism as justthe latest iteration of the
(00:23):
powers that be trying to tameand domesticate Christianity.
This is For People with BishopRob Wright.
Bishop Wright (00:40):
Hi everyone, this
is Bishop Rob Wright and this
is For People.
Today, in the third installmentof our series on Christian
nationalism, we are justdelighted to welcome
Representative James Talarico,Texas House Representative of
the 52nd District.
Representative Tallarico,welcome.
(01:03):
He is born just north of Austin, in Round Rock, texas.
He is a graduate of theUniversity of Texas at Austin
and he has a Master of Artsdegree in Education Policy from
Harvard, and he is presentlypursuing a Master of Divinity
degree at Austin PresbyterianTheological Seminary.
(01:27):
Why I've asked RepresentativeTalarico to join us is because
of this phenomenal sermon thathe has preached and that has
gone completely viral.
When people learned that Iwanted to talk about Christian
nationalism, I got a wonderfullist of books that I needed to
read, but this video of JamesTalarico standing in a
(01:47):
congregation very much like ourcongregations and just telling
out his heart about the gospeland why Christian nationalism
isn't Christian was justabsolutely arresting and
compelling, so I wanted to havehim on.
So, Representative Talarico,tell me of all the things that a
Texas politician could be doingright now with his or her time.
(02:08):
Why did you feel like this wasimportant to single out as an
issue and to deliver as a sermon.
Rep. Talarico (02:16):
Well, thank you
first for your kind words.
As I mentioned to you earlier,I'm still just a seminarian, so
for you to say that about one ofmy first sermons means a lot to
me.
I'm a little intimidated to betalking about the craft of
preaching with someone like you,but it is a true honor.
Well, the reason I spoke aboutit at church is because I'm
(02:39):
dealing with it in my day job atthe Texas Capitol.
As you mentioned, I serve as astate representative here in
Central Texas and unfortunatelywe've seen Christian nationalism
rear its ugly head here inTexas over the last couple of
years.
There was a bill to force everyteacher in the state of Texas to
(03:02):
post the Ten Commandments intheir public school classrooms.
There was a bill to replaceschool counselors with untrained
, unqualified religiouschaplains.
There was a bill to defundpublic schools to subsidize
private Christian schools andmost recently there was a bill
(03:24):
to teach Bible stories ashistorical fact to elementary
school students.
So this is a very real livesituation here in Texas and I
felt the need to not onlyaddress it politically here at
the state capitol, which I'vedone on the House floor, but
also address it theologically,and I felt the best place to do.
(03:46):
That was my home church.
Bishop Wright (03:48):
Now that's
wonderful.
You know, you and I think I anda few other scholars that we've
had on really sort of zero inon this point that what we're
understanding and what'sbecoming popularly sort of named
Christian nationalism, has verylittle to do with the Jesus of
Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.
(04:10):
Is that where you are, and ifso, tell me a little bit about
that.
Rep. Talarico (04:15):
That's exactly
right, and I also you know this
term, christian nationalism isnew for a lot of folks and it's
become a lot more popular in ournational discourse.
But you know, in my view, thishas been a problem in our
religion since Constantine.
You know, 300 years after thatcarpenter was crucified by the
(04:39):
Roman Empire.
So this has been a strugglewithin Christianity really since
the beginning, and it takesdifferent forms and it has
different names and there aredifferent figures.
But powerful people, whetherit's emperors or presidential
candidates or megachurch pastors, they try to use this wild,
(05:03):
undomesticated religion for thepoor and the oppressed for their
own purposes, to consolidatetheir own wealth and power.
And so I, in my view, I seeChristian nationalism as just
the latest iteration of thepowers that be trying to tame
and domesticate Christianitytrying to tame and domesticate
(05:31):
Christianity.
And so there have beenChristians since Constantine who
have resisted those efforts,and I think it's our obligation
as Christians to stand up forthe gospel against those who are
trying to pervert it and thosetrying to subvert our democracy.
Bishop Wright (05:47):
So let me ask you
this question.
So you are a person who is afollower of Jesus.
You've made that public andmore than that, heading into
seminary now.
In fact, before you got on thepodcast today, you were in a
class, seminary class.
So you're a Christian, I'm aChristian.
What's wrong, Tell me?
What's wrong with having theTen Commandments on display?
(06:10):
Or what's wrong with Christianschools?
Shouldn't Christians want someof all of this stuff?
Rep. Talarico (06:18):
Yeah, it's a
great question.
I also think we should try toenter into these conversations
with as much empathy and love aspossible for our neighbors who
may disagree with our currentposition.
I don't think we should takefor granted that folks know why
this is contradictory to thegospel, or at least why it's
(06:40):
contradictory in our view, andso I appreciate that question.
Here's how I come at it.
Before I was a politician, Iwas a public school teacher.
I taught on the west side ofSan Antonio, which is a
beautiful, historicMexican-American neighborhood
here in the state of Texas.
(07:00):
So whenever I'm dealing withthese education policy questions
, I always think about mystudents first.
They are the lens through whichI evaluate public policy
proposals that come through theCapitol.
I had students who didn'tbelong to a particular faith
(07:43):
tradition.
I had students who were Hindu,buddhist, muslim, jewish, sikh.
Texas, as you know, bishop, isone of the most diverse states
in the country, and so you know,when this bill came forward to
force every teacher to displaythe Ten Commandments, I
immediately thought of thestudents who don't belong to the
Judeo-Christian tradition.
I immediately thought of thestudents who already stick out
right.
I mean, when you're a Jewishkid or a Hindu kid or a Buddhist
(08:06):
kid in a Texas public school.
It's hard enough to bedifferent, and this was, in my
opinion as an educator was goingto make their lives even harder
, because now they have onereligion being preached at the
front of the class or beingposted on the walls of that
classroom that isn't their ownand doesn't reflect their faith
(08:32):
or the faith of their family.
And so that's how I think aboutit as an educator.
And then that's also how I thinkabout it as a Christian,
because in my reading of thegospel, we, as followers of
Jesus, are called to care forthe least of these, for the
outcasts apply to people who arenot in our religion, right, who
(08:54):
aren't in our club.
And so that's why, you know, Iuse the story of the Good
(09:18):
Samaritan in the sermon that youmentioned, because I think it's
where Jesus specificallydefines neighbor as someone
who's different from us.
So the short answer to yourquestion is the reason we
shouldn't post the TenCommandments in every classroom
is because it is not loving ourneighbors, our neighbors who are
different from us.
We can also have aconstitutional conversation, but
(09:40):
I'm not a lawyer, I'm not aconstitutional scholar.
That's not where my brain goesmy brain goes to the kids who
are left out, and I think that'sexactly where Jesus would want
our brains and our hearts to goto
Bishop Wright (10:17):
You know.
What's interesting to me is,when we talk about Christian
nationalism, it seems to have adomination and a coercive factor
.
That's right, and one wonderswhere we get that justification
from.
In Matthew, mark, luke and John, christian nationalism seems to
want a power that Jesus shunned, and Jesus also shuns the means
(10:45):
with which we're hearing peopletaking power or wanting to take
power.
Jesus doesn't come to start aChristian theocracy, right.
And he seems to want to inviteus to persuade people by our
witness Right.
And it's not about geography,it's not about religion, it's
certainly not about gender, it'snot about infirmity, it's
something.
(11:36):
I think one of the reasons we'regetting this big uptick in
Christian nationalism is notjust because it's an election
year, but because there's a deepspirit of fear in this.
The state of Texas, it'salready there.
In the state of Georgia, forinstance, it's already there.
So I think that one of thethings we do when we get to
Christian nationalism, it'seither a lust for power or it's
a response to really to fear.
And so we're really at anintersection.
Will we choose to love neighbor, or will we choose to be afraid
(11:59):
of neighbor and circle thewagons and use Jesus as
permission for all of that?
Rep. Talarico (12:07):
Yeah, I love that
you've rooted this in fear,
which I think is exactly right,and Scripture tells us that love
casts out fear.
You know a lot of people wantto contrast love with hate, but
I think really the opposite oflove is fear, and so much of the
scriptures, both our Christianscriptures and our Hebrew
(12:29):
scriptures you know, one of themost common commandments is fear
not, do not be afraid, becausefear is something that we
wrestle with as human beings.
I know I wrestle with it allthe time, and certainly in 2024,
when so much is changing.
I mean, the world is changingso fast, so much faster than
(12:51):
it's ever changed before, notjust demographically, but
technologically and economicallyand culturally.
The world just seems to bespinning a lot faster than it
used to, and so I get wherepeople are coming from.
I really do.
But, as you mentioned, thegospel provides us a path
forward through fear, and whenwe're having this conversation
(13:13):
about Christian nationalism, Ioften think about that story in
scripture where Jesus is walkingwith Peter right, his top
lieutenant, the rock that thechurch is built on, and Peter,
you know correctly, identifiesJesus as the Messiah, and then
Jesus tells him that means I'mgoing to be going to the cross,
(13:36):
and you see this in thescripture.
You see Peter react with fear,right, and he kind of lashes out
at Jesus and says that thatcan't be the case, right, that
can't be what being the Messiahis all about.
It can't mean the cross, right.
And then jesus says get behindme satan, right to his, to his
(13:59):
top disciple, yeah, yeah, and.
And so that should show us thatthis idea of control of power,
that that that is not comingfrom god, that's not coming from
jesus, that's, that's comingsomewhere else, uh, and that's,
and that's a deeply human desirethat we are called to move past
if we're going to truly followJesus to the cross.
Bishop Wright (14:21):
So is it fear, do
you think?
I mean, in your sermon youmentioned January 6th and you
know there's a couple of imagesthat are really contrasted on
January 6th and if you go backand you look at the tape, you
see very clearly men and womencarrying crosses, carrying
(14:43):
Christian flags, and you seealso instruments of harm.
You see even a gallows iserected for the then vice
president.
So you know, and we've askedother guests, how are we holding
the gospel of love, you know, alove that even doesn't spare
itself, even to the cross?
How do we hold together thatand this notion of Jesus who
(15:10):
authorizes, you know, hostiletakeovers of governments?
How are we help me understandit how are we doing that?
Rep. Talarico (15:18):
Yeah, it's such a
good question.
I tend to think that democracyis much more than than laws and
institutions.
It's much more than just votingin an election every two or
four years.
Democracy to me as a Christianand an elected official, it's a
(15:39):
spiritual practice.
And I think the greatestchampions for democracy I'm
thinking in particular about thecivil rights movement they were
really focused on this idea ofpracticing democracy as a
spiritual discipline.
And the reason that it'sspiritual is that it requires a
(16:00):
few things.
It requires that we listen toour neighbors.
That's kind of fundamental tothe idea of all of us living
together in peace.
It requires that we have kindof the humility to recognize
that we don't have all the rightanswers.
It requires that we resolve ourconflicts non-violently and
(16:21):
this is probably the hardestpart of all.
It requires that we give uppower when we lose, when we lose
at the ballot box, and thatagain, I really think that the
reason I think democracy is sospecial and the reason I think
democracy is a Christian valueis because that's directly
aligned with the gospel, theidea of giving up power, of
(16:42):
self-emptying for others.
That's exactly what Jesus does.
It's exactly what happens inthe Trinity, in the very life of
God, it's the self-emptyinginto others, and so that's why I
think the image of Christianson January 6th refusing to give
(17:04):
up power for their neighbors andviolently trying to resolve
this conflict was just such apainful image for so many of us,
and it's something that I thinkshould haunt the church and
should haunt us as Christians.
Even if we weren't there onJanuary 6th, even if we voted
(17:24):
for Joe Biden, it should stillhaunt us, because that's our
family, that's our community,that's the body of Christ that
we are a part of, and so thatwas part of the motivation for
me giving this sermon is, I feel, an obligation to speak about
this within our family, becauseit needs to be handled within
the church before we can handleit outside the church.
Bishop Wright (17:47):
You know, the
wonderful sort of upside down
world of the gospel means thatprecisely at these worst days
and times is exactly the righttime to try to shed light, right
?
And so we're sort of upsidedown and there's a lot of
consternation, a lot of fear inthe system.
We've forgotten some of thegolden rules of forgiveness,
(18:11):
some of those muscles areunexercised.
And it's exactly our work,those of us who say we follow
Jesus of Nazareth, to remind thesystem, remind brothers and
sisters, and remind this verycomplex American family that
now's an opportunity to be thewords we say on Sunday, right?
(18:32):
I always ask people how doesyour Sunday relate to your
Monday, right?
Cause it's one thing to attendchurch, it's another thing to
endeavor to be church, right?
So I wonder, I wonder, I'm, I'm,I'm an acquaintance, maybe even
a friend of our governor here,governor Kemp, who's a
Republican.
(18:52):
I'm a great friend of our ourSenator Raphael Warnock.
He's a Democrat, and and and Ithink that's that's what I'm
supposed to be doing I'msupposed to be in relationship
with people who don't all agree,we don't all agree about
everything, but we arenevertheless in a conversation.
So how's that going for you inTexas, governor Abbott has been
(19:15):
really clear as a Christian thatit is okay to send men and
women on buses to faraway statesto dramatize, you know, sort of
the plight at the border?
How's this conversation goingabout how to be Christian when
(19:36):
we have these very complexissues like border security and
et cetera?
You?
Rep. Talarico (19:42):
When you were
talking about the upside down
kingdom, that is, the kingdom ofGod, and how counterintuitive
the gospel is right, the idea ofturning the other cheek, the
idea of loving your enemy.
I mean, sometimes I'm justshocked that Christianity became
(20:02):
the most popular religion inthe world, you know, because a
lot of this should not bepopular and I still believe that
really most of the gospel isnot really popular and that's
why you have always seen thingslike Christian nationalism try
to supplant the gospel, becauseyou know so much of this is just
(20:22):
deeply countercultural andcounterintuitive.
But that commandment to loveyour enemy, I think is central
to democracy and to the Americanexperiment, and you mentioned
that earlier, your relationshipwith Governor Kemp or with
Senator Warnock, you know.
(20:43):
I think the interesting part ofthat command is that Jesus
acknowledges that we will haveenemies.
Right, if you believe injustice, if you believe in human
rights, if you love yourneighbors, that's going to
require that you oppose thosewho are hurting your neighbor.
Right?
It's not kind of a call to bepolite above all else, right, or
(21:04):
to paper over differences or tomove past conflict, it's.
It's not.
That is not the what we arecalled to do.
We are called to resistoppression and defend our
neighbors, even if that meansflipping over some tables in the
(21:25):
halls of power.
But all of that has to berooted in a radical love for the
people we oppose and that Ithink is so key.
I also think it's just missingfrom our current discourse, at
least when I get on Twitter orFacebook or Instagram.
There's not a lot of lovingyour enemy in those spaces,
(21:54):
because that's good business,always has been, and it makes
some people very wealthy thosewho run these platforms.
But if we can get back to theidea of loving our enemies again
, not papering over conflictConflict is crucial and we have
to lean into conflict but doingit with this steadfast love for
(22:16):
those we oppose, I think couldtransform this democracy and
transform the world as it hasfor 2000 years.
Bishop Wright (22:25):
You know I'm glad
to hear you say that.
It gives me hope, and I knowI'm not the only one listening
that will gain some hope here tohear someone who is a follower
of Jesus and also someone who isan elected official endeavor to
try to walk this line, and so.
But this hope is not only yours.
(22:46):
My guess is is that my hope isthat you've found some other
folks in Texas who also sharethis sense of the gospel, its
breadth, its depth and itsdesire to include all.
Is that right?
Rep. Talarico (23:02):
I have, and there
was a moment in the last
legislative session last yearwhen this bill that we were
discussing earlier to forceteachers to post the Ten
Commandments came up incommittee and I had this
exchange with the bill author,representative Candy Noble, a
Republican from North Texas whoI consider a friend.
(23:23):
You know we disagree prettyprofoundly on a lot of public
policy issues, but you know Ihave met her family.
She and I have spent a lot oftime together, we have similar
interests outside of work and weare both followers of Christ
and so when she came to thecommittee that I was sitting on,
the public education committee,to bring this bill that I felt
(23:46):
was antithetical to theteachings of Jesus, I had a
conversation with her, atheological conversation.
It was not supposed to kind ofleave the committee room, but
someone got a hold of thefootage and put it online and
and it went viral and what a lotof people commented on was that
we had this deep disagreement,respectfully, and that shouldn't
(24:10):
be, shouldn't, that shouldn'tbe anything new, but it is in
this current day and age.
But people were shocked that wewere able to treat each other
with love and honor each other'shumanity, and I think that's a
straight and narrow path andit's not easy to do and I fall
off that path all the time and Isay things that I regret about
(24:32):
my Republican friends a lot.
But if we can try to hold eachother accountable and remember
that even Donald Trump is achild of God I don't think he
should be anywhere near theWhite House, but he is a child
of God and is required to thesame love, the same respect that
(24:54):
any of our neighbors areentitled to.
That idea that we get fromJesus in the gospel, I think has
the potential to save thiscountry and save democracy all
over the world.
Bishop Wright (25:09):
I just can't
thank you enough for being here
and sharing your viewpoint withus, and a link to Representative
Talarico's sermon will be inthe episode description.
Again, thank you so much forthe gift of your time and we
wish God's many, many blessingson you.
Rep. Talarico (25:25):
Thank you, bishop
.
This was a true, true honor forme.
So thank you, and God bless youand your team God bless you,
bye.